This week Doug Gilbert is in Alaska, but never fear "Wildfire" Tommy Rich is here with host Gene Jackson and he's going to tell us all about the famous war that he and Austin Idol waged against Jerry 'the King' Lawler in Memphis in 1987! They go in depth on all the matches that kicked off the feud starting in December 1986 until the "blowoff" in June 1987. It's all here as Tommy breaks down how the feud began, AWA World Champion Nick Bockwinkel's role, Sid Eudy's first ever wrestling match that happened in a main event match during this feud, the infamous "posting" of both Lawler and later Tommy, the famous Steel Cage Hair vs. Hair Match, and of course the big scaffold match that took place at the conclusion. Some of these matches and the people involved haven't been discussed in any of Tommy's past interviews. Make sure you check this episode out and share with your friends!
Send in your questions to douggilbertpodcast@outlook.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
From titled belts to Hall of Fame.
Doug and Tommy carved the name. Fits of fury and hearts of gold.
Every story, every fight retold.Tales of glory, laughs and cry.
(00:20):
10 sea warriors with hearts openwide.
In the rain, on the air, legendsliving without a care on the mic
they roared on the map, they sawdangerous conversations.
(00:42):
By 1 moon. Our guys came through the way
with this person in the race, inthe stage.
Hey, everybody. Welcome back once again to
Dangerous Conversations with Dangerous, Doug Gilbert and
(01:05):
Tommy Wildfire. Rich, I'm your host, Jean
Jackson. And wait a minute, Tommy.
We missing man. We missing what I.
Need a minute? Well, Dougie, as you call him, I
don't know if I'm allowed to call him that yet, but Doug has
tagged out, man. He is in Alaska.
(01:26):
He's a hideaway. He's up.
One of Alaskan cruises, man. Wow, good for him.
Man. What a what a fun trip that must
be. And of course, you know, you
are. You're always at the beach.
So man, I'm jealous of you guys.You guys are living it up.
Memphis coffee always does it right?
Nothing. Last year about the same time,
me and me and my wife Ted Lee and we was on our way with Chad
(01:49):
Adams and his wife Vicki going going to Alaska ourselves man
and. Nice.
Hey, I I told Doug because Doug had one to get out and about
like that. I thought.
Man, you'll love. We had a great time.
It was really fun. I'm hoping me and my wife can do
that someday. I've heard nothing but good
things about those, and I'm not one for hot weather.
So I think if I'm going to do a cruise, I think I'd rather do
(02:11):
the Alaskan cruise then, you know, go down to the and.
Then if you because you, you seeall the pretty weather anyways,
but but that's that's just the glaciers and just all the, you
know, the all the stuff you get to see.
We went she we went ATV riding and and just said well, we had a
(02:33):
great time. So I know, Doug, you will too.
Well, that's awesome. Well, I'm happy for them.
They deserve a vacation. And we told Doug that, hey, you
guys go. In the past, Doug's went on
trips and he's trying to get on at the hotel and do interviews
and stuff and was like, man, don't mess with that.
You guys go have fun. Me and Tommy's got this and when
(02:56):
we do, we've got a fun topic. Before we get there, we got a
couple other fun things we're going to talk about Tommy,
because next weekend you're going to be in Illinois on
Friday, June the 6th, you're going to be in Shawnee Town at
the Cold Days and you're going to be in a street fight.
Looks like you're going to be taking on a telecon in a street
fight. What's this guy got to look
forward to Tommy? Ain't going to look, Gordon, a
(03:19):
good old country ass woman. That's a street fight, man.
I've been one. I ain't been in one many moons,
but that day, Georgia street fight, Tennessee street fight.
That's what I grew up doing anyway, so I'm excited about
that. But like I said, it's been many
years, but I'm ready to roll. Hey, you better be ready.
Somebody better tell him you were just up in Philadelphia at
(03:41):
the ECW Arena Street fighting all around that building with
Shane Douglas and the pit bulls.So you fired up and ready to go.
You ain't scared of Attila Con. Chairs ain't nothing new to me,
man. That's right.
And then next day you're headingto Fireman's Hall, Collinsville,
IL. Another great SICW event.
That one ought to be a fun one too.
(04:02):
Man, a lot of people on the card.
I know you're looking forward toseeing those great fans in
Collinsville. Hey, look, hey, excited.
We're going to be there early doing autograph signings before
the show. I mean, in both towns.
Yeah, I'm really excited about it.
I and I razzled a few times up through that country there and
it's beautiful country. And yeah, I'm really excited
(04:22):
about it. Of course, Herb Simmons.
And big shout out to Herb Simmons, Bud Whitaker.
They wanted to set it up and just just glad be coming up that
way, man. That's awesome.
And hey, not just next weekend, guys.
Tommy's out there. He's burning the roads up.
I mean, he's the very next weekend we've been talking about
(04:42):
it, but the following weekend you're going to be right there
in Mayfield, Illinois for Mayfield May.
I'm sorry, I said Illinois, Kentucky.
Get me straight here, Tommy Mayfield, Kentucky, Mayfield
Mayhem Pro Wrestling Entertainment.
And you're not coming alone. You're bringing dangerous Doug
Gilbert of the Memphis Mafia andthat old rival, the man we're
(05:03):
going to be talking about a lot on today's show, the King.
Jerry Lawler is going to be there too.
There's no telling what's going to happen.
You guys may get a hold after weget to talk about all the things
that happened in 1987. Tommy, you may be ready to get a
hold of him again up there in Mayfield.
I'd love to jump on him. Whoop his.
Ass shave his head again, who knows you?
Never know. You never know, but yeah, yeah.
(05:27):
Back in the day, that was they they they was a lot of animosity
there, you might say. But but now you know how we back
travel our roads and everything.And of course, Doug's a real
good friend. Jerry's and everything.
I but I'm excited. Mayfield, Kentucky.
I mean, it's going to be a big weekend wrestling period.
(05:48):
We're going to be a metropolis. So there's a lot of things going
on on eleven, 12th and 13th. So I'm pretty fired up about
that. Doug back from his trip.
I'd hope he'll be rested up by Holland or while he gets in
there. Kicks butt.
Yeah, there you go. You can, you can clap in for him
in the corner and you can do it like Ricky Morton did him up
(06:09):
there in Corinth, Ms. You can make you can make him carry the
load in the rain and you just get that tag at the end and come
and clean house. But yeah, Metropolis, the big
Superman festival, of course, we've been talking about that
here for a few weeks. That's going to be a lot of fun.
And so folks. Hey, Jerry, the king lovers will
be there too. I mean, and I I can't wait to
(06:31):
see him. I went to his house.
I've said it doesn't die. I've been there for one time,
but so give me something to bragabout.
But he loves and Marvel characters and, you know, it's
going to be a big show, Comic Con and, and he'll be like a kid
in the candy store. So I'm, I'm excited about that.
You know, through all these years, we finally come out and
(06:52):
we're pretty good friends. So I'm excited about the whole
weekend. Big shout out to Jason, all the
folks there in Mayfield, KY. It's going to be a big night of
wrestling. Plus we'll be there signing
autographs. So that's going to be a big
night. Then we'll go to Metropolis
Friday and Saturday and Lord, I ain't no doubt what will happen
(07:13):
there. Well, folks, don't miss it.
Plenty of chances to see Wildfire and see Doug Gilbert
coming up real soon. So make sure you get out to one
or all of those shows. Why not?
But talking about Jerry King Lawler, you guys are in a pretty
good place right now, but it's atime that you weren't in a good
place with Jerry Lawler was 1987.
(07:35):
So in 1987, I'm 10 years old andI'm glued to my TV, Tommy, as
when this first started, it started out kind of endlessly
enough. You came out on Memphis
television and you asked Lance Russell, why is Jerry Lawler
getting the next shot at AWA world champion Nick Bockwinkle?
He's coming back to town. Lawler's been getting all these
(07:56):
shots over the years of Nick Bockwinkle, but yet you're the
man who was a former world champion.
You're the man who had beat Harley Race.
You had proven you could be a world champion.
But here's Jerry Lawler getting a shot.
AW, world title. You weren't too happy about it
at the time. And I'm I'm still out today.
I'm still out today. Ain't many people say that was a
former N.W.A world heavyweight champion when the N.W.A was the
(08:19):
NWAI mean there's no such thing as N.W.A now.
I mean they folks who claim to be or whatever, but but N.W.A
was somewhere you you made you proud.
So, and especially to be in a list of those that won the N.W.A
World Heavyweight title when wrestling, you know, was
(08:40):
wrestling, you know, it's an honor.
And and yeah, so, you know, I mean it back in the day, you
know, and then we took everything pretty, pretty
serious back then too. So I was probably a little PO
about, you know, not getting theshots instead of Lauder for
real, you know? Yeah.
And you know, and that that putsyou in elite company, being a
(09:00):
former N.W.A world champion, especially a man that beat
Harley Race. But man, if you would have
turned around and had an opportunity to beat Nick
Bockwinkel and be an N.W.A and AWA world champion, that was
pretty very, very rare at the time.
There was a very short list of anybody that accomplished that.
So I understood why you were upset even as a young fan who
(09:21):
you know, was a big fan of both of you guys, even as a 10 year
old kid, I'm like, I kind of getwhy Tommy's upset.
He ought to be getting a shot atNick Bokwinkle.
What's going on here? But as it unfolds, we'll see,
we'll see if I keep that line ofthinking as a as a kid back then
you have a match with big Bubba.Of course, Big Bubba.
For those that are unaware, that's a big Fred Ottman who
(09:44):
went on to be Tugboat and Typhoon and my goodness, he's a
bit shock master. He's he's had a whole array of
of different personas over the years.
The man he was just starting now.
The man faces, but hey, Chuck Bogdow, you talk about cool
people. I mean he great big fella.
He great big fella. But but yeah, he and you know,
(10:08):
and it just cause of that, I guess.
But he but you talk about just agood gold person.
He was a real a real nice fella.Yeah, I've had the opportunity
to meet Fred a few times and what a great guy.
But yeah, like I say, this was really early in his career.
He was probably maybe a year anda half, maybe two years in, not
probably not quite two years, though.
(10:28):
So, you know, he's a big guy. That's, you know, I'm sure
that's a tall order to get in there and work with a guy who's
still still green, as they say. And he was having good matches
there in Memphis. And you hit him with a Fayez
press off the second rope. You've got the match one and
downtown Bruno comes in. He hits you with a chain.
Lawler comes in to help you out and even the score.
(10:51):
But the ref comes to, he sees Law in the ring and he
disqualifies you. And you weren't happy about it?
Say Lawler would Lawler would look at that number one spot?
He couldn't get it. He I mean, he was, he was, he
was gay, but he had to come downand mess him back and mess
around in my match. You know, that's it.
That's it. That's what it was notorious for
(11:12):
though, is doing stuff like that.
Well, you even the odds Tommy, because later in the night
Lawler's wrestling the Great Kabuki and somehow you end up on
the apron. Lawler bumps into you, knocks
you off the apron, he ends up getting pinned by the Great
Kabuki, and now you guys are sure enough Cross by this point,
he's cost you a match. You've cost him a match.
(11:33):
You guys are not happy. I had a concussion.
I don't even know how I ended upback down there.
You know, he he made a point to be interfering in my back,
right? But but mine, I'd hit my head
earlier in that match and and I was concussed.
Well, that makes sense. You didn't even know where he
was. You didn't know he was
(11:53):
interfering or causing any problems.
So so just to kind of put a timestamp on this, you know, I
said 87, but right now we're in December of 1986.
So coming out of that, like I say, you get disqualified
against Big Bubba. Jerry Lawler gets pinned by the
great Kabuki on December 15th, 1986.
(12:14):
So on December 22nd, 3 days before Christmas, you and Jerry
Lawler fight to a double count out there at the Mid South
Coliseum. You know, we've talked about
what a big deal, you know, wrestling around the holidays is
and the various territories and everything.
And so Memphis didn't always runon Christmas Day like they did
(12:35):
in Georgia and some of the otherterritories.
Because if it didn't fall on Monday night, then it didn't
fall on the night that you ran the Coliseum.
You know, it was just wherever the the chips landed, right?
Yeah, so you guys fight to a double count out on the 22nd.
Then on December the 29th, JerryLawler defeats you 26 minutes,
29 seconds there to Mid South Coliseum to ensure that he gets
(13:00):
his title shot. On January the 4th they go to a
60 minute time limit draw. So once again, King doesn't win
the AWA title. You didn't.
Get something, I will tell you something that I may interrupt
you. No, you're good.
A lot of respect there because Nick Bockwinkle, I say Harley
Race was the best. Nick Bockwinkle, he was another
(13:24):
ring general and and that's and that's what impressed me because
Nick Bockwinkle, he wouldn't work.
He would work different with everybody he worked with, like
Rick Blair and other folks. He had you had to have the same
match he had he'd have with you,me or anybody else, Nick
Bockwinkle, Harley Race. They would have your kind of
match, you know, the psychology and everything.
(13:47):
And but Nick Bach way and and what a gentleman he was.
And I watched that whole match too.
And and what a hell of a match they had.
I made right there in members court.
Jerry was on fire, but but Nick Bach was and they respected him
and do what a wrestler he was. So it was, I mean, it was a heck
of a match. I don't think people talk about
(14:11):
Nick Bockwinkle enough about what a great champion he was.
He I mean people who some peopledo, but I don't think like
younger people in some of the Main St. audiences are familiar
with Nick Bockwinkle so much as they are maybe Harley and
especially Flair and people likethat.
But man, I've seen Nick Bockwinkle just have some
amazing matches in the episode of the Years and the AW.
But and, and, and the thing about Nick, I mean, I rushed
(14:33):
him. Hey, you know, Nick, he was
mostly the AWA up north and that's why nobody in the South
really realizes, you know. But I went up and wrestled with
Vergon a few times and and he just was in charge, man.
And he come to Georgia and I wrestled him a few times there
in Georgia, you know, because hewas a champion.
And of course I was a hot babyface and and I had the
(14:57):
opportunity to wrestling man, nothing but respect for him.
Yeah, I mean, he carried himselflike a champion.
He was so good in promos and he wore the suits.
And you know, when you think world champion, like you kind of
picture a guy like Nick Bockwinkel and kind of had that
that arrogance. He kind of talked down to the
fans and the promos, but it was subtle.
It wasn't over the top. It was just enough to kind of
(15:17):
create guy. And most of the guys was, he was
just real generally, you know, he did, yeah.
He just, he pissed you off, justbeing quiet, you know?
Yeah. So I want to ask, you know, I
know a lot of territories you hear back in the day, Booker's
would layout programs and they might come to you and go, hey,
(15:38):
Tommy, this is our plan for the next three months, four months,
whatever. But Memphis by nature, you with
the weekly territory and everything's built around Monday
night and the other towns kind of, you know, playoff of that.
How far out were we planning stuff?
So like when this angle starts with you and Lawler and the kind
of the subtle you do that promo and we start building it, what
(15:59):
did they tell you in the beginning?
Like, did they know how far out all this was going to go or they
just going to kind of play it byear and see how things go?
Well, I mean, if, like you said,every territory is a week to
week territory. And and like Ollie Anderson, he
had a game plan for four weeks away.
But a lot of times in Memphis itwas like a weekly territory.
(16:21):
You know, you didn't know what was happening next and didn't
know the boys either. I mean, it was, you know, I
mean, they had a plan, but. But as far as knowing what the
angles are going to be, you know, they, they'd like to come
up with that Monday night Memphis.
Yeah. Well, we're going to go this
way, so let's do this, you know,I mean, it wasn't like Saturday
(16:43):
TV. You knew what was happening
Monday in Memphis, you know, Andthen the whole thing cycled off
of Memphis, too. So yeah, it was it.
Memphis was different. Yeah.
So in the same night on January the 11th, you defeat Jerry
Lawler by disqualification. You match goes about 11 minutes
and on the same card, Lawler beats Austin Idol by
(17:05):
disqualification in the match that goes a little under 3
minutes. So you know, there's I'm sure
there's stuff on TV that kind ofbuilds that up.
I don't really have that in front of me here.
But this is where you and Idol intersect and you guys kind of
become associated here. You had worked with the Idol in
Georgia in different places. How did you feel about getting
(17:27):
paired up with Austin Idol here?That was a big task.
Lot lot to ask of a man. Excuse me?
No. But hey, Austin, Austin's a rare
breed, you know, And like, I bethim, like you said, he's in
(17:50):
Georgia. Of course he did the deal with
my leg and put the Figure 4 on the Harley.
We did a lot of stuff to get, you know, like that.
And he was a heel, but and that that was good then.
So I was excited because, you know, I mean, you look at Austin
Island and go way back when he first started started and you
(18:12):
know, he's Mike Mcchord. You know it.
Was in that plane crash ripped by you know and back then he
weighed about two 7280 were pumped up and you know ripped
the bottom of his feet off He come back hell you didn't even
recognize him come back because he lost so much weight and had
the blonde hair and just just the whole 9 yards.
(18:34):
I, I knew a lot about Idol before he got, you know, I mean,
I mean, I met him in Georgia, but I, I knew the history of him
before then, you know, because I, you know, like I'm not sure
if kids, they know the history of wrestling, but I like to know
what was going on and, and like it.
We talked about, you know, the Fargo's or Don and Al Green or
(18:57):
the interns and Dr. Clemens, andyou know, that's the history of
the business. So it it to me, it's hard.
If you don't know that, then then what are you doing?
You know, so but I but I always went, you know, watch her ask
him when I was a kid by me and my dad go So, but it was all
good to me and I got the opportunity to get in the
(19:18):
business and and to get in thereand, and you know, First off be
with Jerry the King Lawler and then, you know, like I said, me
and Austin did the thing to leadinto my Harley deal in Georgia
and and Austin was always nice to me.
I mean, you'll hear people have bad stories about it and I know
(19:39):
that's pretty much true too. But he was always decent to me.
And so especially, you know, back then it was about putting
butts in the seats and that's how we got paid.
So, so he was a good shot in thearm, you know, so and we did
good business. I mean, we did really good
business. So yeah, the first tag team
(20:01):
match here, February 16th, 1987.And this is fun.
This is like such a Memphis thing to happen here.
So Lawler and Nick Bockwinkle, you know, they feuded for years.
Lawler's been going for the AWA world title, but now he's gotten
crossed with you and Austin Idol.
He needs a partner. So Jerry Lawler and Nick
Bockwinkle team up to take on Austin Idol and Tommy Rich here
(20:23):
on February the 16th. Match goes to a
disqualification. Lawler and Bockwinkle get a win
here. But that's a fun tag team match,
you see? And Lawler, because you got that
whole, you know, angle of all right, well, Lawler and
Bockwinkle get along. Is Bockwinkle just going to
straight up turn on Waller? What's going to happen?
So the fans have even more reason to come down here to see
(20:44):
this match on Monday night, right?
Yeah. Oh yeah, I mean, that probably
so slap out, you know, like I say, a lot of people didn't know
about women, but they had respect for him, especially
every single all of rascals, because the way he handled
himself. And again, Lawler could do one
of the best promos. I mean, so I'm sure that all
(21:06):
factored in and everything. But, and I remember the match,
we had a heck of a match too. Yeah, I remember seeing
highlights of it back in the dayand thinking, man, I wish I
could have went and seen that. You know, I was living just
below Tupelo back then and I couldn't get my parents to take
me all the way to Memphis on a Monday night.
So I just got to see the highlights.
But then you know, the a week later when the Tupelo show or
(21:29):
when the TV show aired in Tupelo, it was usually
highlights like you would see sometimes whole matches, but at
least you know, significant highlights from the previous
Monday night's show. So I remember getting to see a
good chunk of that match on the Tupelo version.
And it was a it was a really good match.
And so the following week you'renot there.
(21:51):
I don't know if I can't rememberif if if they did it, you know,
any kind of injury angle at the end of the other match.
But the next week is Jerry Lawler, Nick Bockwinkle, and
they defeat Austin Idle and LordHumongous.
And this is actually Sid Viciousdebut in wrestling.
This was his very. So Sid, Sid Vicious.
For people who don't know this, the first match, the first
(22:11):
actual match he ever had in his life was in a main event in
Memphis tagging with Austin Idle, I guess.
Jerry Lawler, Nick Bockwinkle. What a what a spot to be put in,
right? Yeah.
But but that was one of the lawless projects with Sid
Vicious, I mean, and what the hell?
I mean, he create, he created a monster too.
(22:33):
Yeah, in more. Ways than one, but yeah.
But hell, that drew real good too.
I mean, that's one thing about Jerry Lawler.
He knew how to do business and Iknow he met, I don't know see it
come and met him or what, but Lawler was good.
It just take its people and and making them something.
(22:55):
Yeah, yeah. He definitely was able to see
things and people that perhaps other people weren't able to
see. So by 1987, now you did have
that. You need to have that heel run
in early 80s Memphis when you'rea huge babyface in Georgia.
And then you come back to Memphis, they turn the heel,
which wasn't popular with a lot of people.
But by 87, are you pretty like, do you like being a heel?
(23:18):
Are you pretty comfortable with it by then?
Are you settling into it? Hey everybody, Jean Jackson here
inviting you to check out the Retro Wrestling review where
(23:39):
each week I'm joined by some great Co host to help me review
classic episodes of USWA Championship Wrestling.
And right now we are doing week by week reviews of 1993.
But we don't just do reviews. Sometimes we get a chance to
interview some of the people whowere there and lived it.
Plus do watch alongs. It's a lot of fun.
So check out new episodes that drop every Wednesday at
(24:01):
wrestlecopia.com and define links to everything associated
to the podcast. You can go to uswapodcast.com.
Well, I got to live the best size of both lives, you know, I
mean, I, you know, in Georgia, Iwas a big babyface and
everything and, and which I lovethat babyface is my thing.
(24:24):
But but it was cool to go back to Memphis and I got to have my
run in Georgia. And then and then like other
guys, they travel from here to Louisiana.
You know, they had to go around the loop where I was blessed and
like I'd have a run in Georgia and then go back to Tennessee.
And I was smart enough to know that they want, but no, no #1
(24:46):
babyface. And that was going to be Jerry
the King law. So if I want to make money,
that's who I had to wrestle. So I, you know, I plus I enjoyed
being a baby. I mean a heel too, you know.
I mean, it was fun to me after being a baby baby.
And I've seen some of the good heels, you know, like they'd be
heels. And I thought, Dang, that's
(25:08):
pretty cool too. So, you know, it was a no
brainer for me then that was theway to go.
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. If if the owner or one of the
owners, I guess I should say, isthe top babyface, there's no
chance you can ever be the top babyface.
So you might as well be the top heel because, you know, you get
(25:28):
to be the top heel against that top babyface.
Now you can make some money. And boy, you guys sure did.
So the following week, March the2nd, Austin Idle and Tommy Rich
take on Jerry Lawler. And now last week Austin Auto
brought in a monster. This week Jerry Lawler's brought
in a monster. And I remember what a big deal
this guy was around this time, Bam Bam Bigelow comes into
(25:51):
Memphis. He's been there as a heel, Pryor
and now he's coming in as Jerry Lawler's partner.
And I just remember as a kid seeing this guy and you know,
you're used to seeing, you know,3 and 400 LB guys and they
wrestled like monsters and you know, this guy's coming off the
top rope. He's doing cartwheels, He's
doing all those things you've never really seen a big man do,
(26:11):
drop kicks. Just an amazing athlete.
How was he to work with? Because he's still pretty fresh.
He's a pretty new here in 87. How was he to work with?
Yeah, bam bam, God bless him. I mean, that's another one gone
too soon too. But you know, he was he was a
dream, I mean, and I got to knowhim and just another one that
(26:33):
was a gentleman too. I mean, just real nice fella.
He had to go lucky, you know. And so, you know, it was just it
was so easy, you know, he was good, Law was good, Austin was
good. You had you got four guys that
can work and ain't nothing but good.
Yeah, those matches really standout.
And you guys had a, you know, you had a series of those
(26:54):
matches. You had that tag match.
You come back in a no time limit, no disqualification tag
team match the following week. Eventually you guys do that.
This is pretty wild. A2 ring, Texas death match where
you've got a match going on in each ring at the same time.
(27:16):
I don't know, was stuff like that fun or was it just like
what are we doing or I don't know, How do you feel like hard?
I mean, it's fun, but it's hard because it's someday never been
done, you know, But you got, youknow, like, like if you're if,
if it's a hill, both hills got to be on top.
It was a babyface about babyfacegot to be on top.
You can't have one thing going on over here and one thing going
(27:38):
on over there. So it was a lot of, you know, a
lot of extra thinking in it, butbut it was cool, man, because
the stuff that had never been done, Yeah.
Yeah. And that's the kind of things
people don't necessarily think about, the psychology of that,
the timing of that. You got to be aware of what
these other two you're all goingat the same time, but you got to
be aware of what they're doing over here and they got to be
(27:59):
aware of what you're doing over there because like you said, if
it doesn't sync up, then the crowd don't know what to do.
But I know that's got to be crazy for the crowds.
Like what do we watch? Do we watch Tommy's beating up
Bam, I'm over here or, you know,idols beating up Lawler over
here. So you're kind of splitting
their attention. So I guess that's kind of you
got to be aware of that as well.And that's what you.
Had to do. I mean, you know, I mean, if
(28:21):
you, if any kind of any kind of match you have like that, you
know, you got, you got to have, you know, the rhyme and reason.
So yeah, if I'm over here kicking your butt, they're over
there kicking the other, kickingothers butt, then it don't
rhyme. But if me and Austin's kicking
their butts, then then it, you know, has a little rhythm
because it is it's hard. I can't pay attention like that.
(28:44):
So yeah, you can't have focus. Don't want you got to have a
look and stuff. Yeah, but it's just a little
stuff like that. And I was lucky that, you know,
they do how to handle it now. You know, they taught me to.
So around this time, and I may have my timing off, we've gotten
to go through different matches,but don't matter.
We're talking about all of it around this time.
(29:06):
At one point, I think it's during this match, there's a
singles match, Austin Idle versus Jerry Lawler, March 16th,
1987. It goes to a no contest.
And I think one of the reasons why one match you show up and
you guys end up ramming Jerry Lawler's crotch into the ring
(29:26):
post, which was like he's like people like, Oh my God, you
know, they it was you know, it was brutal.
It wasn't something I mean that gets done now.
People do it as a spot during the match in the match just
keeps going. But this was like Lawler when I
was a stretcher. Like, it was a huge, huge thing
when you guys did that to him, right?
Well. And back then, me and Austin,
(29:47):
they've one probably liked him awhole lot.
We might have. We might have yanked him in a
little stiffer than we should. You got to trust some guys to
say, hey guys tonight, how wouldyou feel about you around my
nuts into the ring post? Like I mean, you got to make
sure you've been paying guys right for the loop of the weeks
leading up to that. What about?
Me and Bam bam, big load him doing it Well, we're yeah.
(30:10):
We're going to get there in a moment, too.
Yeah, Because that's the thing you had to consider, like, hey,
Austin, we can't kill him because I got to turn around and
take this. So I guess that was what I was
going to ask. When you guys did that to
Lawler, did you know you were the 1 going to be taking it in
return a couple of weeks later or was that not discussed well?
I mean sort, I say. I had a trip to Japan.
(30:35):
OK, I was out. They knew I was going to Japan.
So, but there again, I mean, Lawler sold the heck out of it.
And that's the way we used to dothe stuff where people, you
know, if they don't believe whatyou're doing, then then you
know, and Lawler, anything, I mean, even like him and Andy
Kaufman, the stuff they did, they people believed it because
(30:56):
they sold it. Well, Speaking of that, maybe
you can confirm this for us here.
So after you guys rant crotch Lawler into the Ring post,
there's footage of him at the hospital going back having
surgery. There's a reason for that.
It wasn't because you guys rammed his crotch into the Ring
(31:18):
post too hard. He had something else going on
at the time, right? The word is he had a vasectomy,
either got a vasectomy or he washaving one reversed.
Is there any truth to that, or are you going to plead the fifth
on that one? I don't know nothing about his
damn stairs. You might ask Doug.
(31:40):
I don't know. I.
Mean that's that's what I've always been told is like the
reason he chose to have y'all dothat is because he knew he was
going into the hospital to do you know to have that procedure
done that makes. Sense so I mean.
They could shoot him going in, shoot him coming out and like,
Oh my gosh. And they put him in the
hospital. He was a firm believer.
In all of that, I mean selling what you did, I mean, and
(32:01):
nobody, but you know, nobody whether I like him or not he, I
mean as far as business, he was very good with business.
Absolutely. So yes, so you guys, you crotch
him in the post, he takes a couple of weeks off to sell it
and because he has his proceduredone, whatever.
Well, I think he's got it reversed.
I think he actually was getting it.
But anyway, whatever, that's hisbusiness.
(32:22):
So then you guys come back in A tag match and as you pointed out
now Lawler and Bigelow run you into the ring post.
Now I might have talked over youbefore.
Now how was that? Did you would you wear a cup
that night or something? Or were you just hoping they
didn't kill you? No, I mean, they look vicious.
I remember doing it and I was a little scared.
(32:43):
I ain't going to tell you I wasn't scared because, I mean,
because me and Austin Doug, DougWaller and and it don't, it
don't take a whole lot to mess that up.
Oh, yeah, yeah. I was a little nervous, but but
I was in, you know, good hands. I mean, it was all about
business. And like I said, I had a trip to
Japan. I was gone, I think for two or
(33:06):
three, four weeks, something like that.
And then when I come back, you know, we did a big thing.
But yeah, I mean, I mean Lawler,he's he's strictly A
businessman. I mean, and back then, do you
know, you didn't want to hurt nobody because you had to work
with him again. So we was all good.
I remember that this day. I can remember as a kid seeing
(33:29):
the video of that and they run you in the post and you crawl
across the ring and you try to stand up.
You kind of go in like a little semi circle and you fall back
down and cross your legs and just like bowed over.
And I mean, I've always wondered.
I'm glad to hear that they they didn't get you because I
remember even as a kid and then watched me, you know, once I was
kind of smart to things. I'm like, I think they got him
(33:50):
because I mean, Tommy can sell, but he's selling that hard.
I like I say, but like I said, there's such a small margin of
error there a little bit. I might have winded me.
Yeah, that's, that's a tough onethere.
So so from there, like you said,you were going to, you had to
sell it, plus you're already going to Japan.
(34:11):
So now we've got Austin idle versus Jerry Lawler in a singles
match April the 6th. We go to a double
disqualification Southern Heavyweight title match.
Austin defeats Jerry Lawler to win the title on April the 13th.
Then we have the famous SouthernHeavyweight title chain match
April the 20th. And that's the one where Austin,
(34:34):
you know, Lawler's hook to the chain, Austin's fighting it now.
By now, Austin Idol has a manager.
I don't think he came in until you were gone.
But correct me if I'm wrong. And I know he ends up managing
you when you get back. But Paul Heyman shows up or as
as he was called then Paul Dangerly.
I don't know if Lance Russell said his name wrong or that's
(34:55):
what he was called Pauly. Dangerously.
So he comes in, and now him and Austin Aisle are arguing with
the referee about hooking the chain to his wrist.
And while they're doing that, unbeknownst to them, Lawler
unhooks the chain and ties it tothe rope and stands there.
So that when Idle finally hooks the chain to his wrist and he
(35:15):
turns around, Lawler's free. He pulls a chain out of his
tights, knocks Idle out 123. He's the new champion now.
You know, I guess because everybody loved Lawler, it was
fine. You know, you kind of got
screwed on a main event. It lasted like 6 seconds.
It wasn't really a match, but everybody was so happy that he's
stuck at the Idol. Everybody was thrilled, right?
(35:35):
That's what they wanted to see. Oh yeah.
Lawler Lawler not also had a match.
If Lawler if Lawler lost, he gothis head shaved and if Austin
lost, he give everybody's money back.
That's that's. Where we're getting to right
we're. Building to.
That. So let's remind everybody like I
(35:58):
was. There at the time when that
happened, but I remember that was a big deal you've been.
So you've been right. You've, you've been running to
the post and now Tommy Rich is gone.
He he got hauled out on a stretcher.
Tommy Rich is gone. We just assume he's gone for
good. And we don't know.
There's not, there's not Internet.
Back then, most of us didn't have dirt sheets, so we didn't
(36:19):
know that Tommy was in Japan. We just thought Tommy, you know,
got rammed to the ring post and now he's injured.
So you're kind of out of sight, out of mind.
We kind of forget about you thatyou know, you're around and like
you said now and that's. Another reason you could the
angles if you know stuff like that, you can sell the stuff,
(36:40):
you know, like you talk about Jerry going, you have you have
privates reworked or whatever, But but he he sold, you know.
So I mean, and that's the way the business used to be.
And that's that was the mistake of what people want to believe
or not. When you see stuff like that and
everybody disappears, you know, because they do as well as I do
(37:00):
you there every week because youdon't get paid if you don't, you
know. So.
So that was the mistake of the business too.
So that leads to the rematch. You know, Idol beat Lawler, now
Lawler beat Idol, he's champion again.
So now we have, we have booked asteel cage match.
The Southern heavyweight title is on the line and it's hair
(37:24):
versus hair and Austin idle go so far as to say if I don't beat
Jerry, we'll be back up before Imake this statement.
Let's let's lay out here. While to me, this is pure genius
and it's a way that really makespeople want to go spend their
money because for years and years and years, people have
(37:48):
been trying to shave Jerry Lawler's head and he's had the
deck stacked against him every way in the world.
I mean, I remember people thought in the 70s when it was
Jerry Lawler's hair versus Bill Dundee's wife Beverly's hair
paper. Like, they're not going to shave
Dundee's wife's hair. Lawler's getting his head
shaved. And then he didn't.
And there was all these times was like, so finally people in
(38:10):
Memphis were just like, all right, they're never going to
shave Waller's head. Whatever happens, whether this
is legit or not, whatever. Waller's never get his head
shaved. And then Idle goes on TV and
says, if I don't beat Jerry Lawler and I don't shave his
head, I will refund the money ofevery single fan Monday night at
the Coliseum. And then people are like, holy
(38:31):
shit, we're pretty sure Lawler'snot going to get his head
shaved. We can go to the wrestling for
free because Lawler's going to win.
Let's go. And you guys sell the place out
because everybody thinks they'regoing to go watch, not only
Austin. I don't lose.
They're going to say Austin, I don't get his head shaved.
And then after they see a cage match and a head shaving,
(38:53):
they're going to get all their money back.
This is going to be great. Well.
What they don't know. Is the big deal.
Is though the big deal about that is though, because in
different areas and different, different situations, a lot of
times it'd be a hair verse hair match and something happened.
It wouldn't. It wouldn't happen.
(39:13):
Well. I mean, like, you know, or get a
tweed cut out or something. But but like you said, Lawler
had never had his hair head shaved and been in situations
like that but scuffed out of it,you know what I mean?
And so, so and like with also guaranteeing everybody's money
(39:34):
back, they thought, well, whether he gets his head shaved
or not, we go get our money back.
Exactly. Yeah, that that was a big deal.
That was that was very smart thing, very smart booking.
You know what, hair versus hair,it was Lawler's hair versus
getting that money back, you know, So yeah, that turned into
(39:57):
something that was just unheard of because we've.
Talked about this on the show before.
I know Doug brought up an angle at one point.
There had been a couple of timeswhere Memphis had kind of shot
itself in the foot, where they didn't deliver on some loser
leave town, like with Lawler andJimmy Valiant.
There's a couple times they didn't deliver on hair
(40:18):
stipulations. And people are starting to get a
little salty. Like, all right, sometimes
they're going to tell us stuff and they're not going to make
good on it. But in this situation, it was
like, well, they can't not give us our money back if Lawler
wins, so let's go, you know? But what they didn't know is
somebody that they weren't expecting to be there got there
(40:40):
in the middle of the afternoon. And tell us about when you
arrived at the Mid South Coliseum on April 27th, 1987.
Kind of walk us through your dayof getting there and how you
spent that day leading up to that match.
Yeah, you had to be a Superman. Do what I did.
(41:02):
But no, I just got back from Japan and you know, when you go
overseas like that, you get thatjet lag coming back, so I was
pretty damn tired. Anyway, we got there about 5:00,
maybe 4/4/30, 5:00 and I'll never forget Jerry.
Jerry, he said. We stopped on the way into
(41:23):
Memphis, got me a six pack of beer and got me a whatever blow
up air mattress you use in the pool.
Not no air mattress you sleep on.
I just want him to use in the pool and so I got that.
We get to the building, Randy W brings a little cartridge TV
stuff out. He brings that out, throws the
(41:45):
tarp over and I get under it with my little my air mattress
and my 6 pack of beer and security I don't even believe
was there quiet yet. But anyway, he pushed me down
the ring and I crawl out under there and I got my little big 6
pack of beer and my air mattress.
I get out of there, I blow it up, lay there for a minute and
(42:07):
two, of course I've blown up blowing that air matches up.
Anyway, I drink me a beer. I drink me a beer and I lay on
that air mattress and I fall asleep.
I wake up. Got to, got to, got to pee.
Well, wasn't the word pee under there?
So I peed in the can. You know I peed.
In the can. And so anyway, that went on like
(42:31):
I'm there at 4:35, the matches start at 8 and we're all like
the main event. So I'm under that ring for like
even at 567-8910, at least five hours under that ring.
Oh my God. And like, I drink a beer peeing
can and I lay back on the batches and I go to sleep.
(42:52):
Thank God I had jet lag. And you know, So anyway, the
first thing I remember is that Memphis ring.
You remember how loud it was on the sail?
So I'm laid on the bare matches asleep.
All of a sudden they get in the ring and somebody backdrop,
somebody, something, I mean, it went kaboom and I raised up, hit
(43:13):
my head on the bottom of the ring and thought, Oh my God,
where am I at? Then of course I registered with
me where I was at. But yeah, that was that was
quiet, quiet. If if you've never been under a
wrestling ring and average ring is pretty darn loud, when
somebody takes a bump in there and you're underneath it, it's
(43:35):
pretty loud. But like you said, that Memphis
ring was exceptionally loud. So that's one of the things
that's always stood out to me with the first time I heard this
story was I can't imagine being under there through the whole
car. They're the last match and
listening to that bump after bump after bump through all the
match, I can't imagine what kindof a headache you must have had.
(43:56):
I mean, I know you had a few beers, but still.
Whoo, that's a long night, dude.You, you earned you earned your
pay that night, Sir. That was probably.
A little more. Yeah, yeah, you probably still
owed a little more. I might want to talk to Jerry
about that. Look for me at.
The time, but I probably earned a little more should earned a
little more. I want to hit him up in.
Mayfield and go hey, man, yeah, I've been talking about this and
(44:18):
thinking about it. No, we, we need to revisit that
April 87 deal. So you're under the ring.
And like I said, people think, all right, well, you know, it's
a cage match. Lawler's probably going to win
no matter what because what's Otter going to do?
He's in a cage. Is is buddy, you know Polly
(44:38):
dangerously. You can't interfere first time.
Ever a cage like that on the youknow, instead of being mounted
around the ring, it was set on the floor.
It was what 20 foot high? I mean, that was that was
another first too. I mean, I would creative in
Memphis. That's what damn sure.
So that's a. Fun fact you bring up there so
(44:59):
people remember the the quote hell on the sail cage from the
WWF and it had two interesting factors to it.
One, it's surrounded ringside. It didn't just go like you say,
it didn't attach the ring. It covered the entire ringside
and it had a had a roof on it. Well, this might this ring
didn't have this cage, didn't have a roof on it, but you were
in the first cage to ever have aroof on it.
(45:20):
Last Battle of Atlanta. We've talked about that here,
the match with Buzz Sawyer. But then the first match to
surround ringside in Memphis wasthis cage.
You're involved in that too. So you were like embedded in the
history of the hell in the Cell.Hell, you ain't lying.
You're. Like Mr. Hell in the What about
that? But you're right.
So yeah, so that, so the cage issurrounding ringside and so so
(45:45):
you know, when did you know it was time to to come out and and
do your thing? Paul Lee was supposed to let me
know, but it was hard because I can see on the ring.
But but actually just the response from the people when
they when Lawler got beat, you knew you knew it was time or
(46:08):
wouldn't Lawler beat idle? The people pop and you knew it
was time. Yeah, yeah.
So you've got an arena full of people who most of them are all
just fans who don't know any better.
So they think cage match, Lawler's going to be idle.
I'm getting this money back. They probably had plans for that
(46:29):
money already. Probably some of them.
Need it for gas to get home. Other people who thought they
were smart thought, yeah, they're not going to refund.
They're not going to. They're not going to beat
Lawler. Lawler's not going to let them
shave his head. So they're going to refund our
money tonight just, you know, because Lawler's not going to
lose. So.
So the heat you guys got bottom line?
(46:50):
Is though they knew it was goingto be a good night either way.
They don't get their money back watching 7-8 matches of
wrestling. Are they going to get to see
Jerry Lawler finally get his head shaved?
I mean, it was either or, but either way it was a winning
situation for the fans, You know, I mean, it was I mean, you
could have hyped that stuff no better.
(47:11):
No and. So they got both.
They get, you know, they're either mad because they're
heroes getting his head shaved, or they're mad because they're
not getting their money back or both, which is the case.
And this was probably the most heated the Memphis crowd had got
in many, many years. And it looked like you guys
might not make it out of the caves that night.
It got pretty serious, right? Oh, oh, I come out from
(47:35):
underneath that ring and Bob drive.
Jared Lawler And then people like they knew, they said, they
said, oh, it's over now. You know when they save it.
You know, when they thought theywas getting their money back or
not, they knew I was. In his.
Head shaved no matter what and yeah, I come up in that ring and
(47:55):
and and I'll never forget. I mean I used to what go when I
was a kid and watching matches like Don and Al Green and told
you I've seen them guys getting outside.
I knew what he you know, I see guys that go out and they give a
little heat, but you talk about just that calm and heat that
people go or just get real quiet.
(48:17):
I've seen that a few times, but but I didn't realize what it
was. And when we did that Bob drive
Lawler in Austin beat him 123. It was like they thought, heck,
with my money back, we want to kill Tommy Ridge and it's well
(48:39):
it took us. I mean they got the three count
and I scooted boundary and but it was I mean it was it ain't
nothing. I've seen heat before.
They no heat like that. I have seen.
We stayed. We said, of course we shaved
lawless head, but it took us 30 minutes to get out of the ring.
I mean, the one kid tried to climb up, get on the top and he
(49:03):
blessed his heart. He probably wishing got in up
there as bad and police did. Dogs.
They got up, but but we had stayed at ring for about 30
minutes and wait for extra police to get there.
So they build like a little barricade, you know, it's lined
up and told us to run. Austin.
Austin. I said run.
(49:25):
I looked around. Hell, he was already in the bag
and I still stand there. Yeah.
And he wasn't very fast either. But.
Yeah, but it was. Yeah, that was some scary heat.
And then when we went out back, I mean, they want to kill us.
I was throwing shit. I mean, it was, yeah, it was.
It was a lot of heat. Yeah, so that's what younger
fans might understand now, cuz like, you know, things happen on
(49:48):
wrestling now. Somebody turns John Cena turns
heel on Cody and everybody's mad.
But then when they go out back, if they knew where John Cena was
parked, they're not going to go wait by his car.
But like, these people are stillmad when they leave the
Coliseum, they're still mad. They still want to get their
hands on Tommy Rich and and Austin idle to some degree.
But mostly you're the guy that showed up and threw a monkey
(50:11):
wrench and things. So if they see Tommy reach in
the parking lot, they want to kill him.
If they see Tommy reach at the gas station down the road,
they're still mad, literally mad.
So, I mean, and that's a tough situation to be in.
I didn't. Stop.
I got out of town. I.
Bet usually. We had our little beer stop, but
yeah, that night we didn't stop.We went on.
(50:31):
I keep. On trucking, Tommy, Wow.
Yeah. That was that was a big, big
moment in Memphis history. And I remember as a kid watching
that, just being just completelyfloored by it because, you know,
I I was not expecting you to show back up and certainly
didn't expect Lawler to get his his head shaved.
(50:52):
But you know, a lot of people just remember that as being that
we say. That because I think it was, I
think I went to Japan for like 4weeks because that that let
people just kind of forgot aboutme.
I think you're right about it. It must have been 4 weeks.
Yeah, you. That match where they rammed you
into the The post was back on March 23rd and you don't show up
(51:15):
until April 27th. So it had been over a month
since you, which is a lifetime in Memphis when you're doing
weekly. Oh yeah.
Weekly. I mean weekly, yeah.
So a lot of people think, you know, they hear that story and
they watch the compilation of it.
Like, all right, well, that's how that ends.
We'll know you're off to the race.
I mean, you this angle has gone on since December.
(51:37):
But really we're just getting cooking because now the heat is
on. So it continues from there Now.
Bill Dundee and Jerry Lawler wrestle you and Moon Dog spot
the following week of in May andthen you wrestle Lawler and
singles matches. Eventually you guys have the Las
Vegas roulette first blood matchwhere you and Idol beat Dundee
(52:00):
and Lawler. You know it goes on from there
until June. So this this angle starts in
December 1986, June 15th, 1987. That's when we climb the
scaffold and we've talked about that a little bit here.
People have asked about it in Q&A's and things, but you know,
(52:20):
I feel like we need to kind of touch on it again here.
And I know you kind of mentionedit, it came up recently and you
know, it's not like they came togo.
Hey, how would you feel about, hey, Tommy, would you be willing
to do a scaffold match? It's just like you come in like,
hey, we're doing a scaffold match.
Like it's already booked. It's it's already been
advertised and now you're just in a scaffold match.
It was already. Booked for.
(52:41):
I wasn't even doing anything about it.
Little Long asked me about it. Yeah, it was already booked.
They didn't ask me nothing. So when they tell you there's
going to be a scaffold match, was there a moment where you and
I don't look at each other? You're like, wonder who's
winning? I'll tell you what, because I
told myself, I, I mean, I'll do anything, anything in the world,
(53:07):
you know, as far as razzling business.
But I, I, my wife used to clean the gutters in my house.
I, I'd say never been one of my things.
You know, kids used to love to climb trees.
I would never a tree climber either, you know.
So when they told me, I said, I told Jerry Jared, I told him, I
(53:27):
said, well, I'm going to tell you what, Jerry, I said, I don't
want to do it. I said, I ain't standing up.
And then we got to that Memphis Coliseum that Monday night and
of course Memphis Coliseum, the rings stood up off the floor
about four foot, then the then the scaffold was 20 foot off of
that. So you 24 foot up, you know, I'm
(53:49):
looking I'm still you stand up on which I never stood up, but I
could look at you look at this Nosebleed section, everybody
usually if you're ringside, that's the best seat that side,
the best seat was up there looking at the Nosebleed section
because you're about level with it.
And you know, we had to imagine,of course, Lauder, he Lawler was
(54:10):
all right on it. Bill Dundee, he got up there.
Of course, he used to do scaffold work for the Australian
stuff and he got up there with jumping and shaking that stuff
around. I've been Austin stood up.
I've never did. Me and Austin boat climbed about
halfway down before we got backed off.
Yeah. They want to spot you to broke
(54:30):
your leg, your arm, your neck, whatever.
That was a high schedule. Then we did one in Louisville,
KY, the same thing. And they did, of course, we just
did that twice and they decided that was very good.
Yeah. I.
Mean absolutely you can go so it's on YouTube.
You can go watch this match and if you look at the other
(54:51):
scaffold matches that that people did, I swear, I think I
think the scaffold you guys are on is probably the tallest one.
I can't think of another one that looked nearly as high as
the one you guys were on. It's insane how tall tall that
one was. Oh, and I'm telling you that, I
mean, I'm not scared person, buttakes a lot to scare me.
(55:12):
But Dad, yeah, I was scared to death.
I mean, that's. Life and death.
I mean, most any other wrestlingmatch, if you know how, if you
know what you're doing and the guy you're in there with knows
what he's doing, there's, you know, there's an element of
danger to it, of course, but youknow, usually just getting hurt.
Your life's not necessarily in danger on average.
(55:32):
But I mean, one wrong move or that scaffold is not set up
correctly. I mean, it could be a disaster.
I mean, those matches, when you look back on them now, you're
like, how did these even happen?Like whose idea was it to do
these damn things? And how did so many of them take
place? And, and honestly, the the
spectacle of them was a big deal.
And I remember as a kid wanting to see them, but I mean, most
(55:54):
all of them were the shits because nobody was going to get
up there and do moves on them. You talk about.
You talk about, I mean the you know, like people talk about
Memphis wrestling, but they I mean they were a lot of the
originate stuff come out of Memphis that everybody followed
(56:15):
doing, you know, you know, the scaffold matches.
I mean, Crockett used to do it, but it all started in Memphis.
Cage on the floor started in Memphis, you know, I mean, so it
was a, you know, Memphis. Memphis was, you know, back,
back in the day, they thought about it crazy.
But that was a trendsetter. You know, they, they see the
(56:37):
future and, and, and did what people want to see.
Now there's another interesting story that comes out of this
match that's going around for years and you know, you guys
weren't excited about going up there, but you got up there.
But rumor has it night of the show.
And once you get out there and see it, Paul Heyman's like, no,
(56:59):
not going up there cuz famously,you know, in 86, a few months
ahead of this, Cornett went off the one that Starrcade with the
Road Warriors. So I'm sure Lawler thought, all
right, well, Polly dangerously is going to go off this thing.
Yeah, Tommy and Tommy and Austin, they can go halfway
down. We'll get by with that.
(57:19):
But we're going to throw Heyman off the middle of this damn
thing. And if he dies, he dies like
Ivan Drago, you know, like, well, if he dies, he dies,
whatever. And so Heyman, like, he didn't
get up there, did he? Like didn't like when I like a
pretty big point of contention with him and Lawler, and that's
kind of what ended his time in Memphis was them wanting him to
go up the scaffold. Yes, good question.
I don't remember. I know he didn't go up there.
(57:41):
I gave you that. And Lawler says that Heyman's
last show, that he, I mean, what's it's a fact that Lawler
punched him and ended up breaking Heyman's jaw.
But he's, you know, for years, people, you know, pondered
whether that was an accident or not.
And then one of these WWE question things like they asked
Lawler and he's like, yeah, I broke his jaw on purpose or
(58:03):
whatever. I don't know if he really broke
his jaw. I'm trusting exaggeration, but
he he he clocked him good and fired him.
But I could just imagine. Yeah.
Paul Heyman falling off of scaffold.
That would have been, yeah. Had been ugly with the fight.
And probably might have been theend of his time in wrestling.
It might have been a wheelchair after that, because I promise
you that scaffold was way higher.
(58:26):
No, I said it'd. Be ugly if I fell off him.
Oh man, can you? Imagine it was so high.
Yeah, poor Bobby. I wouldn't.
Know I wouldn't wish falling offthat bag to my worst enemy.
I mean, Bobby Eaton dropped fromthe middle of that thing and
from what I understand, you know, did some damage to his
knee and everything, but as highas that one you were on if you
(58:48):
got if all that. Ain't no way you fall that far.
Not hurts yourself, no. Definitely not.
There's no good way to do it. You come down on your knees,
you're going to, you're going toscrew your knees up.
You take, you can't fall on yourback from that high.
Oh my God, that hit and. Roll.
I mean, you got to come to Yeah,it ain't.
There ain't no option. Cornett story has always been
that Dusty sold him on it, that big Bubba Rodgers Ray trailer
(59:12):
was going to catch him when he when he fell and Bubba's
standing there and he kind of steps back.
But and that's always been his story is that Bubba lost him in
the lights and didn't catch him.But I'm like it would have
killed both of them he to try tocatch him.
But he said. Dusty told us that he'd catch
you like the cheerleaders catch the cheerleaders at the football
game. And it didn't work out that way.
(59:34):
But I'm glad you guys didn't go out there and get yourselves
killed on that scaffold. But man, what a memorable feud.
1987. It started in December and went
all the way, you know, into June, halfway through the year.
And man, I'm not asking you for dollar amounts, but I'm assuming
this, this probably, you know, paid well and and it was, you
(59:55):
know, probably one of your more substantial Memphis angles of
all time, right? Oh yeah, I made it.
I made it had me, especially Harry.
That's probably the best anglersever done.
I mean, you know me coming out from up to The Cave as far as
money wise, because it was a winwin situation.
(01:00:15):
Like you said, people thought they got screwed on certain
things where the guy might have to lose or leave town, pull his
mask off and that didn't happen or, you know, just different
situations. And but but this was like a
guarantee that you either going to get your money back and you
going to see Lawler get his headshave.
And I'm thinking, you know, and like you said, it was sold out
(01:00:38):
and I, I just, the people's guaranteed to see something.
And they did. It wasn't what they expected,
but they certainly did. I'd have been not.
What they thought, but they got.They've got extra moments in
that one. Well, they sure did.
Well, man, this has been fun going back, you know, reliving
that, like I said, I was 10 years old at the time, watching
(01:00:59):
Memphis wrestling glue to the TVeach and every week, seeing how
this unfolded. And man, you know, if you'd have
told me back then when I was a kid, hey, one day you'll get to
sit with Tommy Rich and sit and ask him all the questions you
want to ask about this whole thing.
I wouldn't believe him. So this is it was really cool
get an opportunity to talk aboutit.
And I'm glad you have such fond memories of this stuff.
(01:01:20):
You talk to some, you know, you hear some of those guys are
like, oh, it's all just your job, man.
And it was it's it's your job you make.
What's code? What's code?
What makes the show the show? You got the history and you
know, you know the right questions, because a lot of that
stuff's a blur to me now, you know, so, so like, and you point
me in that direction and it brings back the old memories and
(01:01:41):
the things that happen. So it's always good.
It's always a pleasure because it's always good stuff, you
know, ain't nothing negativity and just, you know, it's just I
I love doing this show, man. And it's, it's the whole
package. I ain't Doug, you ain't here.
But we got a minute for us to see if we can do it too, you
know, So. So it's been a cool, been a
cool, been a cool show, man. Yeah.
(01:02:04):
Man, I appreciate you. I appreciate you doing it.
I love doing the show every week.
Like I said, it's it's questionsthat I've I've wanted to ask for
years and now I get a chance to and, and I know that's why the
fans enjoy listening to it because, you know, I feel like
these are the questions they would ask you if they have the
opportunity. And then they do get the
opportunity because they send the man and then you guys answer
(01:02:25):
those questions as well. So appreciate you guys doing
this show each and every week. And I know your fans enjoy it.
And we're going to keep this thing going.
And Doug is not going to be withus next week.
He's just going to be getting back into town.
Hey. Ladies, gentlemen, kids and
girls, hey, peace out from title.
(01:02:45):
The Hall of Fame Doug and Tommy carved the name this of fury and
hearts of gold. Every story, every fight retold
tales of glory. Laughing cry 10 sea warriors
(01:03:06):
with hearts open wide on the air.
They're just living without a cave.
On the night they roared on the map, they saw dangerous
conversations. Friends wanna move our gas canes
(01:03:34):
look away. Especially the raising the
state.
From titled belts to Hall of Fame.
Doug and Tommy carved the name. Fits of fury and hearts of gold.
Every story, every fight retold.Tales of glory, laughs and cry.
(00:20):
10 sea warriors with hearts openwide.
In the rain, on the air, legendsliving without a care on the mic
they roared on the map, they sawdangerous conversations.
(00:42):
By 1 moon. Our guys came through the way
with this person in the race, inthe stage.
Hey, everybody. Welcome back once again to
Dangerous Conversations with Dangerous, Doug Gilbert and
(01:05):
Tommy Wildfire. Rich, I'm your host, Jean
Jackson. And wait a minute, Tommy.
We missing man. We missing what I.
Need a minute? Well, Dougie, as you call him, I
don't know if I'm allowed to call him that yet, but Doug has
tagged out, man. He is in Alaska.
(01:26):
He's a hideaway. He's up.
One of Alaskan cruises, man. Wow, good for him.
Man. What a what a fun trip that must
be. And of course, you know, you
are. You're always at the beach.
So man, I'm jealous of you guys.You guys are living it up.
Memphis coffee always does it right?
Nothing. Last year about the same time,
me and me and my wife Ted Lee and we was on our way with Chad
(01:49):
Adams and his wife Vicki going going to Alaska ourselves man
and. Nice.
Hey, I I told Doug because Doug had one to get out and about
like that. I thought.
Man, you'll love. We had a great time.
It was really fun. I'm hoping me and my wife can do
that someday. I've heard nothing but good
things about those, and I'm not one for hot weather.
So I think if I'm going to do a cruise, I think I'd rather do
(02:11):
the Alaskan cruise then, you know, go down to the and.
Then if you because you, you seeall the pretty weather anyways,
but but that's that's just the glaciers and just all the, you
know, the all the stuff you get to see.
We went she we went ATV riding and and just said well, we had a
(02:33):
great time. So I know, Doug, you will too.
Well, that's awesome. Well, I'm happy for them.
They deserve a vacation. And we told Doug that, hey, you
guys go. In the past, Doug's went on
trips and he's trying to get on at the hotel and do interviews
and stuff and was like, man, don't mess with that.
You guys go have fun. Me and Tommy's got this and when
(02:56):
we do, we've got a fun topic. Before we get there, we got a
couple other fun things we're going to talk about Tommy,
because next weekend you're going to be in Illinois on
Friday, June the 6th, you're going to be in Shawnee Town at
the Cold Days and you're going to be in a street fight.
Looks like you're going to be taking on a telecon in a street
fight. What's this guy got to look
forward to Tommy? Ain't going to look, Gordon, a
(03:19):
good old country ass woman. That's a street fight, man.
I've been one. I ain't been in one many moons,
but that day, Georgia street fight, Tennessee street fight.
That's what I grew up doing anyway, so I'm excited about
that. But like I said, it's been many
years, but I'm ready to roll. Hey, you better be ready.
Somebody better tell him you were just up in Philadelphia at
(03:41):
the ECW Arena Street fighting all around that building with
Shane Douglas and the pit bulls.So you fired up and ready to go.
You ain't scared of Attila Con. Chairs ain't nothing new to me,
man. That's right.
And then next day you're headingto Fireman's Hall, Collinsville,
IL. Another great SICW event.
That one ought to be a fun one too.
(04:02):
Man, a lot of people on the card.
I know you're looking forward toseeing those great fans in
Collinsville. Hey, look, hey, excited.
We're going to be there early doing autograph signings before
the show. I mean, in both towns.
Yeah, I'm really excited about it.
I and I razzled a few times up through that country there and
it's beautiful country. And yeah, I'm really excited
(04:22):
about it. Of course, Herb Simmons.
And big shout out to Herb Simmons, Bud Whitaker.
They wanted to set it up and just just glad be coming up that
way, man. That's awesome.
And hey, not just next weekend, guys.
Tommy's out there. He's burning the roads up.
I mean, he's the very next weekend we've been talking about
(04:42):
it, but the following weekend you're going to be right there
in Mayfield, Illinois for Mayfield May.
I'm sorry, I said Illinois, Kentucky.
Get me straight here, Tommy Mayfield, Kentucky, Mayfield
Mayhem Pro Wrestling Entertainment.
And you're not coming alone. You're bringing dangerous Doug
Gilbert of the Memphis Mafia andthat old rival, the man we're
(05:03):
going to be talking about a lot on today's show, the King.
Jerry Lawler is going to be there too.
There's no telling what's going to happen.
You guys may get a hold after weget to talk about all the things
that happened in 1987. Tommy, you may be ready to get a
hold of him again up there in Mayfield.
I'd love to jump on him. Whoop his.
Ass shave his head again, who knows you?
Never know. You never know, but yeah, yeah.
(05:27):
Back in the day, that was they they they was a lot of animosity
there, you might say. But but now you know how we back
travel our roads and everything.And of course, Doug's a real
good friend. Jerry's and everything.
I but I'm excited. Mayfield, Kentucky.
I mean, it's going to be a big weekend wrestling period.
(05:48):
We're going to be a metropolis. So there's a lot of things going
on on eleven, 12th and 13th. So I'm pretty fired up about
that. Doug back from his trip.
I'd hope he'll be rested up by Holland or while he gets in
there. Kicks butt.
Yeah, there you go. You can, you can clap in for him
in the corner and you can do it like Ricky Morton did him up
(06:09):
there in Corinth, Ms. You can make you can make him carry the
load in the rain and you just get that tag at the end and come
and clean house. But yeah, Metropolis, the big
Superman festival, of course, we've been talking about that
here for a few weeks. That's going to be a lot of fun.
And so folks. Hey, Jerry, the king lovers will
be there too. I mean, and I I can't wait to
(06:31):
see him. I went to his house.
I've said it doesn't die. I've been there for one time,
but so give me something to bragabout.
But he loves and Marvel characters and, you know, it's
going to be a big show, Comic Con and, and he'll be like a kid
in the candy store. So I'm, I'm excited about that.
You know, through all these years, we finally come out and
(06:52):
we're pretty good friends. So I'm excited about the whole
weekend. Big shout out to Jason, all the
folks there in Mayfield, KY. It's going to be a big night of
wrestling. Plus we'll be there signing
autographs. So that's going to be a big
night. Then we'll go to Metropolis
Friday and Saturday and Lord, I ain't no doubt what will happen
(07:13):
there. Well, folks, don't miss it.
Plenty of chances to see Wildfire and see Doug Gilbert
coming up real soon. So make sure you get out to one
or all of those shows. Why not?
But talking about Jerry King Lawler, you guys are in a pretty
good place right now, but it's atime that you weren't in a good
place with Jerry Lawler was 1987.
(07:35):
So in 1987, I'm 10 years old andI'm glued to my TV, Tommy, as
when this first started, it started out kind of endlessly
enough. You came out on Memphis
television and you asked Lance Russell, why is Jerry Lawler
getting the next shot at AWA world champion Nick Bockwinkle?
He's coming back to town. Lawler's been getting all these
(07:56):
shots over the years of Nick Bockwinkle, but yet you're the
man who was a former world champion.
You're the man who had beat Harley Race.
You had proven you could be a world champion.
But here's Jerry Lawler getting a shot.
AW, world title. You weren't too happy about it
at the time. And I'm I'm still out today.
I'm still out today. Ain't many people say that was a
former N.W.A world heavyweight champion when the N.W.A was the
(08:19):
NWAI mean there's no such thing as N.W.A now.
I mean they folks who claim to be or whatever, but but N.W.A
was somewhere you you made you proud.
So, and especially to be in a list of those that won the N.W.A
World Heavyweight title when wrestling, you know, was
(08:40):
wrestling, you know, it's an honor.
And and yeah, so, you know, I mean it back in the day, you
know, and then we took everything pretty, pretty
serious back then too. So I was probably a little PO
about, you know, not getting theshots instead of Lauder for
real, you know? Yeah.
And you know, and that that putsyou in elite company, being a
(09:00):
former N.W.A world champion, especially a man that beat
Harley Race. But man, if you would have
turned around and had an opportunity to beat Nick
Bockwinkel and be an N.W.A and AWA world champion, that was
pretty very, very rare at the time.
There was a very short list of anybody that accomplished that.
So I understood why you were upset even as a young fan who
(09:21):
you know, was a big fan of both of you guys, even as a 10 year
old kid, I'm like, I kind of getwhy Tommy's upset.
He ought to be getting a shot atNick Bokwinkle.
What's going on here? But as it unfolds, we'll see,
we'll see if I keep that line ofthinking as a as a kid back then
you have a match with big Bubba.Of course, Big Bubba.
For those that are unaware, that's a big Fred Ottman who
(09:44):
went on to be Tugboat and Typhoon and my goodness, he's a
bit shock master. He's he's had a whole array of
of different personas over the years.
The man he was just starting now.
The man faces, but hey, Chuck Bogdow, you talk about cool
people. I mean he great big fella.
He great big fella. But but yeah, he and you know,
(10:08):
and it just cause of that, I guess.
But he but you talk about just agood gold person.
He was a real a real nice fella.Yeah, I've had the opportunity
to meet Fred a few times and what a great guy.
But yeah, like I say, this was really early in his career.
He was probably maybe a year anda half, maybe two years in, not
probably not quite two years, though.
(10:28):
So, you know, he's a big guy. That's, you know, I'm sure
that's a tall order to get in there and work with a guy who's
still still green, as they say. And he was having good matches
there in Memphis. And you hit him with a Fayez
press off the second rope. You've got the match one and
downtown Bruno comes in. He hits you with a chain.
Lawler comes in to help you out and even the score.
(10:51):
But the ref comes to, he sees Law in the ring and he
disqualifies you. And you weren't happy about it?
Say Lawler would Lawler would look at that number one spot?
He couldn't get it. He I mean, he was, he was, he
was gay, but he had to come downand mess him back and mess
around in my match. You know, that's it.
That's it. That's what it was notorious for
(11:12):
though, is doing stuff like that.
Well, you even the odds Tommy, because later in the night
Lawler's wrestling the Great Kabuki and somehow you end up on
the apron. Lawler bumps into you, knocks
you off the apron, he ends up getting pinned by the Great
Kabuki, and now you guys are sure enough Cross by this point,
he's cost you a match. You've cost him a match.
(11:33):
You guys are not happy. I had a concussion.
I don't even know how I ended upback down there.
You know, he he made a point to be interfering in my back,
right? But but mine, I'd hit my head
earlier in that match and and I was concussed.
Well, that makes sense. You didn't even know where he
was. You didn't know he was
(11:53):
interfering or causing any problems.
So so just to kind of put a timestamp on this, you know, I
said 87, but right now we're in December of 1986.
So coming out of that, like I say, you get disqualified
against Big Bubba. Jerry Lawler gets pinned by the
great Kabuki on December 15th, 1986.
(12:14):
So on December 22nd, 3 days before Christmas, you and Jerry
Lawler fight to a double count out there at the Mid South
Coliseum. You know, we've talked about
what a big deal, you know, wrestling around the holidays is
and the various territories and everything.
And so Memphis didn't always runon Christmas Day like they did
(12:35):
in Georgia and some of the otherterritories.
Because if it didn't fall on Monday night, then it didn't
fall on the night that you ran the Coliseum.
You know, it was just wherever the the chips landed, right?
Yeah, so you guys fight to a double count out on the 22nd.
Then on December the 29th, JerryLawler defeats you 26 minutes,
29 seconds there to Mid South Coliseum to ensure that he gets
(13:00):
his title shot. On January the 4th they go to a
60 minute time limit draw. So once again, King doesn't win
the AWA title. You didn't.
Get something, I will tell you something that I may interrupt
you. No, you're good.
A lot of respect there because Nick Bockwinkle, I say Harley
Race was the best. Nick Bockwinkle, he was another
(13:24):
ring general and and that's and that's what impressed me because
Nick Bockwinkle, he wouldn't work.
He would work different with everybody he worked with, like
Rick Blair and other folks. He had you had to have the same
match he had he'd have with you,me or anybody else, Nick
Bockwinkle, Harley Race. They would have your kind of
match, you know, the psychology and everything.
(13:47):
And but Nick Bach way and and what a gentleman he was.
And I watched that whole match too.
And and what a hell of a match they had.
I made right there in members court.
Jerry was on fire, but but Nick Bach was and they respected him
and do what a wrestler he was. So it was, I mean, it was a heck
of a match. I don't think people talk about
(14:11):
Nick Bockwinkle enough about what a great champion he was.
He I mean people who some peopledo, but I don't think like
younger people in some of the Main St. audiences are familiar
with Nick Bockwinkle so much as they are maybe Harley and
especially Flair and people likethat.
But man, I've seen Nick Bockwinkle just have some
amazing matches in the episode of the Years and the AW.
But and, and, and the thing about Nick, I mean, I rushed
(14:33):
him. Hey, you know, Nick, he was
mostly the AWA up north and that's why nobody in the South
really realizes, you know. But I went up and wrestled with
Vergon a few times and and he just was in charge, man.
And he come to Georgia and I wrestled him a few times there
in Georgia, you know, because hewas a champion.
And of course I was a hot babyface and and I had the
(14:57):
opportunity to wrestling man, nothing but respect for him.
Yeah, I mean, he carried himselflike a champion.
He was so good in promos and he wore the suits.
And you know, when you think world champion, like you kind of
picture a guy like Nick Bockwinkel and kind of had that
that arrogance. He kind of talked down to the
fans and the promos, but it was subtle.
It wasn't over the top. It was just enough to kind of
(15:17):
create guy. And most of the guys was, he was
just real generally, you know, he did, yeah.
He just, he pissed you off, justbeing quiet, you know?
Yeah. So I want to ask, you know, I
know a lot of territories you hear back in the day, Booker's
would layout programs and they might come to you and go, hey,
(15:38):
Tommy, this is our plan for the next three months, four months,
whatever. But Memphis by nature, you with
the weekly territory and everything's built around Monday
night and the other towns kind of, you know, playoff of that.
How far out were we planning stuff?
So like when this angle starts with you and Lawler and the kind
of the subtle you do that promo and we start building it, what
(15:59):
did they tell you in the beginning?
Like, did they know how far out all this was going to go or they
just going to kind of play it byear and see how things go?
Well, I mean, if, like you said,every territory is a week to
week territory. And and like Ollie Anderson, he
had a game plan for four weeks away.
But a lot of times in Memphis itwas like a weekly territory.
(16:21):
You know, you didn't know what was happening next and didn't
know the boys either. I mean, it was, you know, I
mean, they had a plan, but. But as far as knowing what the
angles are going to be, you know, they, they'd like to come
up with that Monday night Memphis.
Yeah. Well, we're going to go this
way, so let's do this, you know,I mean, it wasn't like Saturday
(16:43):
TV. You knew what was happening
Monday in Memphis, you know, Andthen the whole thing cycled off
of Memphis, too. So yeah, it was it.
Memphis was different. Yeah.
So in the same night on January the 11th, you defeat Jerry
Lawler by disqualification. You match goes about 11 minutes
and on the same card, Lawler beats Austin Idol by
(17:05):
disqualification in the match that goes a little under 3
minutes. So you know, there's I'm sure
there's stuff on TV that kind ofbuilds that up.
I don't really have that in front of me here.
But this is where you and Idol intersect and you guys kind of
become associated here. You had worked with the Idol in
Georgia in different places. How did you feel about getting
(17:27):
paired up with Austin Idol here?That was a big task.
Lot lot to ask of a man. Excuse me?
No. But hey, Austin, Austin's a rare
breed, you know, And like, I bethim, like you said, he's in
(17:50):
Georgia. Of course he did the deal with
my leg and put the Figure 4 on the Harley.
We did a lot of stuff to get, you know, like that.
And he was a heel, but and that that was good then.
So I was excited because, you know, I mean, you look at Austin
Island and go way back when he first started started and you
(18:12):
know, he's Mike Mcchord. You know it.
Was in that plane crash ripped by you know and back then he
weighed about two 7280 were pumped up and you know ripped
the bottom of his feet off He come back hell you didn't even
recognize him come back because he lost so much weight and had
the blonde hair and just just the whole 9 yards.
(18:34):
I, I knew a lot about Idol before he got, you know, I mean,
I mean, I met him in Georgia, but I, I knew the history of him
before then, you know, because I, you know, like I'm not sure
if kids, they know the history of wrestling, but I like to know
what was going on and, and like it.
We talked about, you know, the Fargo's or Don and Al Green or
(18:57):
the interns and Dr. Clemens, andyou know, that's the history of
the business. So it it to me, it's hard.
If you don't know that, then then what are you doing?
You know, so but I but I always went, you know, watch her ask
him when I was a kid by me and my dad go So, but it was all
good to me and I got the opportunity to get in the
(19:18):
business and and to get in thereand, and you know, First off be
with Jerry the King Lawler and then, you know, like I said, me
and Austin did the thing to leadinto my Harley deal in Georgia
and and Austin was always nice to me.
I mean, you'll hear people have bad stories about it and I know
(19:39):
that's pretty much true too. But he was always decent to me.
And so especially, you know, back then it was about putting
butts in the seats and that's how we got paid.
So, so he was a good shot in thearm, you know, so and we did
good business. I mean, we did really good
business. So yeah, the first tag team
(20:01):
match here, February 16th, 1987.And this is fun.
This is like such a Memphis thing to happen here.
So Lawler and Nick Bockwinkle, you know, they feuded for years.
Lawler's been going for the AWA world title, but now he's gotten
crossed with you and Austin Idol.
He needs a partner. So Jerry Lawler and Nick
Bockwinkle team up to take on Austin Idol and Tommy Rich here
(20:23):
on February the 16th. Match goes to a
disqualification. Lawler and Bockwinkle get a win
here. But that's a fun tag team match,
you see? And Lawler, because you got that
whole, you know, angle of all right, well, Lawler and
Bockwinkle get along. Is Bockwinkle just going to
straight up turn on Waller? What's going to happen?
So the fans have even more reason to come down here to see
(20:44):
this match on Monday night, right?
Yeah. Oh yeah, I mean, that probably
so slap out, you know, like I say, a lot of people didn't know
about women, but they had respect for him, especially
every single all of rascals, because the way he handled
himself. And again, Lawler could do one
of the best promos. I mean, so I'm sure that all
(21:06):
factored in and everything. But, and I remember the match,
we had a heck of a match too. Yeah, I remember seeing
highlights of it back in the dayand thinking, man, I wish I
could have went and seen that. You know, I was living just
below Tupelo back then and I couldn't get my parents to take
me all the way to Memphis on a Monday night.
So I just got to see the highlights.
But then you know, the a week later when the Tupelo show or
(21:29):
when the TV show aired in Tupelo, it was usually
highlights like you would see sometimes whole matches, but at
least you know, significant highlights from the previous
Monday night's show. So I remember getting to see a
good chunk of that match on the Tupelo version.
And it was a it was a really good match.
And so the following week you'renot there.
(21:51):
I don't know if I can't rememberif if if they did it, you know,
any kind of injury angle at the end of the other match.
But the next week is Jerry Lawler, Nick Bockwinkle, and
they defeat Austin Idle and LordHumongous.
And this is actually Sid Viciousdebut in wrestling.
This was his very. So Sid, Sid Vicious.
For people who don't know this, the first match, the first
(22:11):
actual match he ever had in his life was in a main event in
Memphis tagging with Austin Idle, I guess.
Jerry Lawler, Nick Bockwinkle. What a what a spot to be put in,
right? Yeah.
But but that was one of the lawless projects with Sid
Vicious, I mean, and what the hell?
I mean, he create, he created a monster too.
(22:33):
Yeah, in more. Ways than one, but yeah.
But hell, that drew real good too.
I mean, that's one thing about Jerry Lawler.
He knew how to do business and Iknow he met, I don't know see it
come and met him or what, but Lawler was good.
It just take its people and and making them something.
(22:55):
Yeah, yeah. He definitely was able to see
things and people that perhaps other people weren't able to
see. So by 1987, now you did have
that. You need to have that heel run
in early 80s Memphis when you'rea huge babyface in Georgia.
And then you come back to Memphis, they turn the heel,
which wasn't popular with a lot of people.
But by 87, are you pretty like, do you like being a heel?
(23:18):
Are you pretty comfortable with it by then?
Are you settling into it? Hey everybody, Jean Jackson here
inviting you to check out the Retro Wrestling review where
(23:39):
each week I'm joined by some great Co host to help me review
classic episodes of USWA Championship Wrestling.
And right now we are doing week by week reviews of 1993.
But we don't just do reviews. Sometimes we get a chance to
interview some of the people whowere there and lived it.
Plus do watch alongs. It's a lot of fun.
So check out new episodes that drop every Wednesday at
(24:01):
wrestlecopia.com and define links to everything associated
to the podcast. You can go to uswapodcast.com.
Well, I got to live the best size of both lives, you know, I
mean, I, you know, in Georgia, Iwas a big babyface and
everything and, and which I lovethat babyface is my thing.
(24:24):
But but it was cool to go back to Memphis and I got to have my
run in Georgia. And then and then like other
guys, they travel from here to Louisiana.
You know, they had to go around the loop where I was blessed and
like I'd have a run in Georgia and then go back to Tennessee.
And I was smart enough to know that they want, but no, no #1
(24:46):
babyface. And that was going to be Jerry
the King law. So if I want to make money,
that's who I had to wrestle. So I, you know, I plus I enjoyed
being a baby. I mean a heel too, you know.
I mean, it was fun to me after being a baby baby.
And I've seen some of the good heels, you know, like they'd be
heels. And I thought, Dang, that's
(25:08):
pretty cool too. So, you know, it was a no
brainer for me then that was theway to go.
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. If if the owner or one of the
owners, I guess I should say, isthe top babyface, there's no
chance you can ever be the top babyface.
So you might as well be the top heel because, you know, you get
(25:28):
to be the top heel against that top babyface.
Now you can make some money. And boy, you guys sure did.
So the following week, March the2nd, Austin Idle and Tommy Rich
take on Jerry Lawler. And now last week Austin Auto
brought in a monster. This week Jerry Lawler's brought
in a monster. And I remember what a big deal
this guy was around this time, Bam Bam Bigelow comes into
(25:51):
Memphis. He's been there as a heel, Pryor
and now he's coming in as Jerry Lawler's partner.
And I just remember as a kid seeing this guy and you know,
you're used to seeing, you know,3 and 400 LB guys and they
wrestled like monsters and you know, this guy's coming off the
top rope. He's doing cartwheels, He's
doing all those things you've never really seen a big man do,
(26:11):
drop kicks. Just an amazing athlete.
How was he to work with? Because he's still pretty fresh.
He's a pretty new here in 87. How was he to work with?
Yeah, bam bam, God bless him. I mean, that's another one gone
too soon too. But you know, he was he was a
dream, I mean, and I got to knowhim and just another one that
(26:33):
was a gentleman too. I mean, just real nice fella.
He had to go lucky, you know. And so, you know, it was just it
was so easy, you know, he was good, Law was good, Austin was
good. You had you got four guys that
can work and ain't nothing but good.
Yeah, those matches really standout.
And you guys had a, you know, you had a series of those
(26:54):
matches. You had that tag match.
You come back in a no time limit, no disqualification tag
team match the following week. Eventually you guys do that.
This is pretty wild. A2 ring, Texas death match where
you've got a match going on in each ring at the same time.
(27:16):
I don't know, was stuff like that fun or was it just like
what are we doing or I don't know, How do you feel like hard?
I mean, it's fun, but it's hard because it's someday never been
done, you know, But you got, youknow, like, like if you're if,
if it's a hill, both hills got to be on top.
It was a babyface about babyfacegot to be on top.
You can't have one thing going on over here and one thing going
(27:38):
on over there. So it was a lot of, you know, a
lot of extra thinking in it, butbut it was cool, man, because
the stuff that had never been done, Yeah.
Yeah. And that's the kind of things
people don't necessarily think about, the psychology of that,
the timing of that. You got to be aware of what
these other two you're all goingat the same time, but you got to
be aware of what they're doing over here and they got to be
(27:59):
aware of what you're doing over there because like you said, if
it doesn't sync up, then the crowd don't know what to do.
But I know that's got to be crazy for the crowds.
Like what do we watch? Do we watch Tommy's beating up
Bam, I'm over here or, you know,idols beating up Lawler over
here. So you're kind of splitting
their attention. So I guess that's kind of you
got to be aware of that as well.And that's what you.
Had to do. I mean, you know, I mean, if
(28:21):
you, if any kind of any kind of match you have like that, you
know, you got, you got to have, you know, the rhyme and reason.
So yeah, if I'm over here kicking your butt, they're over
there kicking the other, kickingothers butt, then it don't
rhyme. But if me and Austin's kicking
their butts, then then it, you know, has a little rhythm
because it is it's hard. I can't pay attention like that.
(28:44):
So yeah, you can't have focus. Don't want you got to have a
look and stuff. Yeah, but it's just a little
stuff like that. And I was lucky that, you know,
they do how to handle it now. You know, they taught me to.
So around this time, and I may have my timing off, we've gotten
to go through different matches,but don't matter.
We're talking about all of it around this time.
(29:06):
At one point, I think it's during this match, there's a
singles match, Austin Idle versus Jerry Lawler, March 16th,
1987. It goes to a no contest.
And I think one of the reasons why one match you show up and
you guys end up ramming Jerry Lawler's crotch into the ring
(29:26):
post, which was like he's like people like, Oh my God, you
know, they it was you know, it was brutal.
It wasn't something I mean that gets done now.
People do it as a spot during the match in the match just
keeps going. But this was like Lawler when I
was a stretcher. Like, it was a huge, huge thing
when you guys did that to him, right?
Well. And back then, me and Austin,
(29:47):
they've one probably liked him awhole lot.
We might have. We might have yanked him in a
little stiffer than we should. You got to trust some guys to
say, hey guys tonight, how wouldyou feel about you around my
nuts into the ring post? Like I mean, you got to make
sure you've been paying guys right for the loop of the weeks
leading up to that. What about?
Me and Bam bam, big load him doing it Well, we're yeah.
(30:10):
We're going to get there in a moment, too.
Yeah, Because that's the thing you had to consider, like, hey,
Austin, we can't kill him because I got to turn around and
take this. So I guess that was what I was
going to ask. When you guys did that to
Lawler, did you know you were the 1 going to be taking it in
return a couple of weeks later or was that not discussed well?
I mean sort, I say. I had a trip to Japan.
(30:35):
OK, I was out. They knew I was going to Japan.
So, but there again, I mean, Lawler sold the heck out of it.
And that's the way we used to dothe stuff where people, you
know, if they don't believe whatyou're doing, then then you
know, and Lawler, anything, I mean, even like him and Andy
Kaufman, the stuff they did, they people believed it because
(30:56):
they sold it. Well, Speaking of that, maybe
you can confirm this for us here.
So after you guys rant crotch Lawler into the Ring post,
there's footage of him at the hospital going back having
surgery. There's a reason for that.
It wasn't because you guys rammed his crotch into the Ring
(31:18):
post too hard. He had something else going on
at the time, right? The word is he had a vasectomy,
either got a vasectomy or he washaving one reversed.
Is there any truth to that, or are you going to plead the fifth
on that one? I don't know nothing about his
damn stairs. You might ask Doug.
(31:40):
I don't know. I.
Mean that's that's what I've always been told is like the
reason he chose to have y'all dothat is because he knew he was
going into the hospital to do you know to have that procedure
done that makes. Sense so I mean.
They could shoot him going in, shoot him coming out and like,
Oh my gosh. And they put him in the
hospital. He was a firm believer.
In all of that, I mean selling what you did, I mean, and
(32:01):
nobody, but you know, nobody whether I like him or not he, I
mean as far as business, he was very good with business.
Absolutely. So yes, so you guys, you crotch
him in the post, he takes a couple of weeks off to sell it
and because he has his proceduredone, whatever.
Well, I think he's got it reversed.
I think he actually was getting it.
But anyway, whatever, that's hisbusiness.
(32:22):
So then you guys come back in A tag match and as you pointed out
now Lawler and Bigelow run you into the ring post.
Now I might have talked over youbefore.
Now how was that? Did you would you wear a cup
that night or something? Or were you just hoping they
didn't kill you? No, I mean, they look vicious.
I remember doing it and I was a little scared.
(32:43):
I ain't going to tell you I wasn't scared because, I mean,
because me and Austin Doug, DougWaller and and it don't, it
don't take a whole lot to mess that up.
Oh, yeah, yeah. I was a little nervous, but but
I was in, you know, good hands. I mean, it was all about
business. And like I said, I had a trip to
Japan. I was gone, I think for two or
(33:06):
three, four weeks, something like that.
And then when I come back, you know, we did a big thing.
But yeah, I mean, I mean Lawler,he's he's strictly A
businessman. I mean, and back then, do you
know, you didn't want to hurt nobody because you had to work
with him again. So we was all good.
I remember that this day. I can remember as a kid seeing
(33:29):
the video of that and they run you in the post and you crawl
across the ring and you try to stand up.
You kind of go in like a little semi circle and you fall back
down and cross your legs and just like bowed over.
And I mean, I've always wondered.
I'm glad to hear that they they didn't get you because I
remember even as a kid and then watched me, you know, once I was
kind of smart to things. I'm like, I think they got him
(33:50):
because I mean, Tommy can sell, but he's selling that hard.
I like I say, but like I said, there's such a small margin of
error there a little bit. I might have winded me.
Yeah, that's, that's a tough onethere.
So so from there, like you said,you were going to, you had to
sell it, plus you're already going to Japan.
(34:11):
So now we've got Austin idle versus Jerry Lawler in a singles
match April the 6th. We go to a double
disqualification Southern Heavyweight title match.
Austin defeats Jerry Lawler to win the title on April the 13th.
Then we have the famous SouthernHeavyweight title chain match
April the 20th. And that's the one where Austin,
(34:34):
you know, Lawler's hook to the chain, Austin's fighting it now.
By now, Austin Idol has a manager.
I don't think he came in until you were gone.
But correct me if I'm wrong. And I know he ends up managing
you when you get back. But Paul Heyman shows up or as
as he was called then Paul Dangerly.
I don't know if Lance Russell said his name wrong or that's
(34:55):
what he was called Pauly. Dangerously.
So he comes in, and now him and Austin Aisle are arguing with
the referee about hooking the chain to his wrist.
And while they're doing that, unbeknownst to them, Lawler
unhooks the chain and ties it tothe rope and stands there.
So that when Idle finally hooks the chain to his wrist and he
(35:15):
turns around, Lawler's free. He pulls a chain out of his
tights, knocks Idle out 123. He's the new champion now.
You know, I guess because everybody loved Lawler, it was
fine. You know, you kind of got
screwed on a main event. It lasted like 6 seconds.
It wasn't really a match, but everybody was so happy that he's
stuck at the Idol. Everybody was thrilled, right?
(35:35):
That's what they wanted to see. Oh yeah.
Lawler Lawler not also had a match.
If Lawler if Lawler lost, he gothis head shaved and if Austin
lost, he give everybody's money back.
That's that's. Where we're getting to right
we're. Building to.
That. So let's remind everybody like I
(35:58):
was. There at the time when that
happened, but I remember that was a big deal you've been.
So you've been right. You've, you've been running to
the post and now Tommy Rich is gone.
He he got hauled out on a stretcher.
Tommy Rich is gone. We just assume he's gone for
good. And we don't know.
There's not, there's not Internet.
Back then, most of us didn't have dirt sheets, so we didn't
(36:19):
know that Tommy was in Japan. We just thought Tommy, you know,
got rammed to the ring post and now he's injured.
So you're kind of out of sight, out of mind.
We kind of forget about you thatyou know, you're around and like
you said now and that's. Another reason you could the
angles if you know stuff like that, you can sell the stuff,
(36:40):
you know, like you talk about Jerry going, you have you have
privates reworked or whatever, But but he he sold, you know.
So I mean, and that's the way the business used to be.
And that's that was the mistake of what people want to believe
or not. When you see stuff like that and
everybody disappears, you know, because they do as well as I do
(37:00):
you there every week because youdon't get paid if you don't, you
know. So.
So that was the mistake of the business too.
So that leads to the rematch. You know, Idol beat Lawler, now
Lawler beat Idol, he's champion again.
So now we have, we have booked asteel cage match.
The Southern heavyweight title is on the line and it's hair
(37:24):
versus hair and Austin idle go so far as to say if I don't beat
Jerry, we'll be back up before Imake this statement.
Let's let's lay out here. While to me, this is pure genius
and it's a way that really makespeople want to go spend their
money because for years and years and years, people have
(37:48):
been trying to shave Jerry Lawler's head and he's had the
deck stacked against him every way in the world.
I mean, I remember people thought in the 70s when it was
Jerry Lawler's hair versus Bill Dundee's wife Beverly's hair
paper. Like, they're not going to shave
Dundee's wife's hair. Lawler's getting his head
shaved. And then he didn't.
And there was all these times was like, so finally people in
(38:10):
Memphis were just like, all right, they're never going to
shave Waller's head. Whatever happens, whether this
is legit or not, whatever. Waller's never get his head
shaved. And then Idle goes on TV and
says, if I don't beat Jerry Lawler and I don't shave his
head, I will refund the money ofevery single fan Monday night at
the Coliseum. And then people are like, holy
(38:31):
shit, we're pretty sure Lawler'snot going to get his head
shaved. We can go to the wrestling for
free because Lawler's going to win.
Let's go. And you guys sell the place out
because everybody thinks they'regoing to go watch, not only
Austin. I don't lose.
They're going to say Austin, I don't get his head shaved.
And then after they see a cage match and a head shaving,
(38:53):
they're going to get all their money back.
This is going to be great. Well.
What they don't know. Is the big deal.
Is though the big deal about that is though, because in
different areas and different, different situations, a lot of
times it'd be a hair verse hair match and something happened.
It wouldn't. It wouldn't happen.
(39:13):
Well. I mean, like, you know, or get a
tweed cut out or something. But but like you said, Lawler
had never had his hair head shaved and been in situations
like that but scuffed out of it,you know what I mean?
And so, so and like with also guaranteeing everybody's money
(39:34):
back, they thought, well, whether he gets his head shaved
or not, we go get our money back.
Exactly. Yeah, that that was a big deal.
That was that was very smart thing, very smart booking.
You know what, hair versus hair,it was Lawler's hair versus
getting that money back, you know, So yeah, that turned into
(39:57):
something that was just unheard of because we've.
Talked about this on the show before.
I know Doug brought up an angle at one point.
There had been a couple of timeswhere Memphis had kind of shot
itself in the foot, where they didn't deliver on some loser
leave town, like with Lawler andJimmy Valiant.
There's a couple times they didn't deliver on hair
(40:18):
stipulations. And people are starting to get a
little salty. Like, all right, sometimes
they're going to tell us stuff and they're not going to make
good on it. But in this situation, it was
like, well, they can't not give us our money back if Lawler
wins, so let's go, you know? But what they didn't know is
somebody that they weren't expecting to be there got there
(40:40):
in the middle of the afternoon. And tell us about when you
arrived at the Mid South Coliseum on April 27th, 1987.
Kind of walk us through your dayof getting there and how you
spent that day leading up to that match.
Yeah, you had to be a Superman. Do what I did.
(41:02):
But no, I just got back from Japan and you know, when you go
overseas like that, you get thatjet lag coming back, so I was
pretty damn tired. Anyway, we got there about 5:00,
maybe 4/4/30, 5:00 and I'll never forget Jerry.
Jerry, he said. We stopped on the way into
(41:23):
Memphis, got me a six pack of beer and got me a whatever blow
up air mattress you use in the pool.
Not no air mattress you sleep on.
I just want him to use in the pool and so I got that.
We get to the building, Randy W brings a little cartridge TV
stuff out. He brings that out, throws the
(41:45):
tarp over and I get under it with my little my air mattress
and my 6 pack of beer and security I don't even believe
was there quiet yet. But anyway, he pushed me down
the ring and I crawl out under there and I got my little big 6
pack of beer and my air mattress.
I get out of there, I blow it up, lay there for a minute and
(42:07):
two, of course I've blown up blowing that air matches up.
Anyway, I drink me a beer. I drink me a beer and I lay on
that air mattress and I fall asleep.
I wake up. Got to, got to, got to pee.
Well, wasn't the word pee under there?
So I peed in the can. You know I peed.
In the can. And so anyway, that went on like
(42:31):
I'm there at 4:35, the matches start at 8 and we're all like
the main event. So I'm under that ring for like
even at 567-8910, at least five hours under that ring.
Oh my God. And like, I drink a beer peeing
can and I lay back on the batches and I go to sleep.
(42:52):
Thank God I had jet lag. And you know, So anyway, the
first thing I remember is that Memphis ring.
You remember how loud it was on the sail?
So I'm laid on the bare matches asleep.
All of a sudden they get in the ring and somebody backdrop,
somebody, something, I mean, it went kaboom and I raised up, hit
(43:13):
my head on the bottom of the ring and thought, Oh my God,
where am I at? Then of course I registered with
me where I was at. But yeah, that was that was
quiet, quiet. If if you've never been under a
wrestling ring and average ring is pretty darn loud, when
somebody takes a bump in there and you're underneath it, it's
(43:35):
pretty loud. But like you said, that Memphis
ring was exceptionally loud. So that's one of the things
that's always stood out to me with the first time I heard this
story was I can't imagine being under there through the whole
car. They're the last match and
listening to that bump after bump after bump through all the
match, I can't imagine what kindof a headache you must have had.
(43:56):
I mean, I know you had a few beers, but still.
Whoo, that's a long night, dude.You, you earned you earned your
pay that night, Sir. That was probably.
A little more. Yeah, yeah, you probably still
owed a little more. I might want to talk to Jerry
about that. Look for me at.
The time, but I probably earned a little more should earned a
little more. I want to hit him up in.
Mayfield and go hey, man, yeah, I've been talking about this and
(44:18):
thinking about it. No, we, we need to revisit that
April 87 deal. So you're under the ring.
And like I said, people think, all right, well, you know, it's
a cage match. Lawler's probably going to win
no matter what because what's Otter going to do?
He's in a cage. Is is buddy, you know Polly
(44:38):
dangerously. You can't interfere first time.
Ever a cage like that on the youknow, instead of being mounted
around the ring, it was set on the floor.
It was what 20 foot high? I mean, that was that was
another first too. I mean, I would creative in
Memphis. That's what damn sure.
So that's a. Fun fact you bring up there so
(44:59):
people remember the the quote hell on the sail cage from the
WWF and it had two interesting factors to it.
One, it's surrounded ringside. It didn't just go like you say,
it didn't attach the ring. It covered the entire ringside
and it had a had a roof on it. Well, this might this ring
didn't have this cage, didn't have a roof on it, but you were
in the first cage to ever have aroof on it.
(45:20):
Last Battle of Atlanta. We've talked about that here,
the match with Buzz Sawyer. But then the first match to
surround ringside in Memphis wasthis cage.
You're involved in that too. So you were like embedded in the
history of the hell in the Cell.Hell, you ain't lying.
You're. Like Mr. Hell in the What about
that? But you're right.
So yeah, so that, so the cage issurrounding ringside and so so
(45:45):
you know, when did you know it was time to to come out and and
do your thing? Paul Lee was supposed to let me
know, but it was hard because I can see on the ring.
But but actually just the response from the people when
they when Lawler got beat, you knew you knew it was time or
(46:08):
wouldn't Lawler beat idle? The people pop and you knew it
was time. Yeah, yeah.
So you've got an arena full of people who most of them are all
just fans who don't know any better.
So they think cage match, Lawler's going to be idle.
I'm getting this money back. They probably had plans for that
(46:29):
money already. Probably some of them.
Need it for gas to get home. Other people who thought they
were smart thought, yeah, they're not going to refund.
They're not going to. They're not going to beat
Lawler. Lawler's not going to let them
shave his head. So they're going to refund our
money tonight just, you know, because Lawler's not going to
lose. So.
So the heat you guys got bottom line?
(46:50):
Is though they knew it was goingto be a good night either way.
They don't get their money back watching 7-8 matches of
wrestling. Are they going to get to see
Jerry Lawler finally get his head shaved?
I mean, it was either or, but either way it was a winning
situation for the fans, You know, I mean, it was I mean, you
could have hyped that stuff no better.
(47:11):
No and. So they got both.
They get, you know, they're either mad because they're
heroes getting his head shaved, or they're mad because they're
not getting their money back or both, which is the case.
And this was probably the most heated the Memphis crowd had got
in many, many years. And it looked like you guys
might not make it out of the caves that night.
It got pretty serious, right? Oh, oh, I come out from
(47:35):
underneath that ring and Bob drive.
Jared Lawler And then people like they knew, they said, they
said, oh, it's over now. You know when they save it.
You know, when they thought theywas getting their money back or
not, they knew I was. In his.
Head shaved no matter what and yeah, I come up in that ring and
(47:55):
and and I'll never forget. I mean I used to what go when I
was a kid and watching matches like Don and Al Green and told
you I've seen them guys getting outside.
I knew what he you know, I see guys that go out and they give a
little heat, but you talk about just that calm and heat that
people go or just get real quiet.
(48:17):
I've seen that a few times, but but I didn't realize what it
was. And when we did that Bob drive
Lawler in Austin beat him 123. It was like they thought, heck,
with my money back, we want to kill Tommy Ridge and it's well
(48:39):
it took us. I mean they got the three count
and I scooted boundary and but it was I mean it was it ain't
nothing. I've seen heat before.
They no heat like that. I have seen.
We stayed. We said, of course we shaved
lawless head, but it took us 30 minutes to get out of the ring.
I mean, the one kid tried to climb up, get on the top and he
(49:03):
blessed his heart. He probably wishing got in up
there as bad and police did. Dogs.
They got up, but but we had stayed at ring for about 30
minutes and wait for extra police to get there.
So they build like a little barricade, you know, it's lined
up and told us to run. Austin.
Austin. I said run.
(49:25):
I looked around. Hell, he was already in the bag
and I still stand there. Yeah.
And he wasn't very fast either. But.
Yeah, but it was. Yeah, that was some scary heat.
And then when we went out back, I mean, they want to kill us.
I was throwing shit. I mean, it was, yeah, it was.
It was a lot of heat. Yeah, so that's what younger
fans might understand now, cuz like, you know, things happen on
(49:48):
wrestling now. Somebody turns John Cena turns
heel on Cody and everybody's mad.
But then when they go out back, if they knew where John Cena was
parked, they're not going to go wait by his car.
But like, these people are stillmad when they leave the
Coliseum, they're still mad. They still want to get their
hands on Tommy Rich and and Austin idle to some degree.
But mostly you're the guy that showed up and threw a monkey
(50:11):
wrench and things. So if they see Tommy reach in
the parking lot, they want to kill him.
If they see Tommy reach at the gas station down the road,
they're still mad, literally mad.
So, I mean, and that's a tough situation to be in.
I didn't. Stop.
I got out of town. I.
Bet usually. We had our little beer stop, but
yeah, that night we didn't stop.We went on.
(50:31):
I keep. On trucking, Tommy, Wow.
Yeah. That was that was a big, big
moment in Memphis history. And I remember as a kid watching
that, just being just completelyfloored by it because, you know,
I I was not expecting you to show back up and certainly
didn't expect Lawler to get his his head shaved.
(50:52):
But you know, a lot of people just remember that as being that
we say. That because I think it was, I
think I went to Japan for like 4weeks because that that let
people just kind of forgot aboutme.
I think you're right about it. It must have been 4 weeks.
Yeah, you. That match where they rammed you
into the The post was back on March 23rd and you don't show up
(51:15):
until April 27th. So it had been over a month
since you, which is a lifetime in Memphis when you're doing
weekly. Oh yeah.
Weekly. I mean weekly, yeah.
So a lot of people think, you know, they hear that story and
they watch the compilation of it.
Like, all right, well, that's how that ends.
We'll know you're off to the race.
I mean, you this angle has gone on since December.
(51:37):
But really we're just getting cooking because now the heat is
on. So it continues from there Now.
Bill Dundee and Jerry Lawler wrestle you and Moon Dog spot
the following week of in May andthen you wrestle Lawler and
singles matches. Eventually you guys have the Las
Vegas roulette first blood matchwhere you and Idol beat Dundee
(52:00):
and Lawler. You know it goes on from there
until June. So this this angle starts in
December 1986, June 15th, 1987. That's when we climb the
scaffold and we've talked about that a little bit here.
People have asked about it in Q&A's and things, but you know,
(52:20):
I feel like we need to kind of touch on it again here.
And I know you kind of mentionedit, it came up recently and you
know, it's not like they came togo.
Hey, how would you feel about, hey, Tommy, would you be willing
to do a scaffold match? It's just like you come in like,
hey, we're doing a scaffold match.
Like it's already booked. It's it's already been
advertised and now you're just in a scaffold match.
It was already. Booked for.
(52:41):
I wasn't even doing anything about it.
Little Long asked me about it. Yeah, it was already booked.
They didn't ask me nothing. So when they tell you there's
going to be a scaffold match, was there a moment where you and
I don't look at each other? You're like, wonder who's
winning? I'll tell you what, because I
told myself, I, I mean, I'll do anything, anything in the world,
(53:07):
you know, as far as razzling business.
But I, I, my wife used to clean the gutters in my house.
I, I'd say never been one of my things.
You know, kids used to love to climb trees.
I would never a tree climber either, you know.
So when they told me, I said, I told Jerry Jared, I told him, I
(53:27):
said, well, I'm going to tell you what, Jerry, I said, I don't
want to do it. I said, I ain't standing up.
And then we got to that Memphis Coliseum that Monday night and
of course Memphis Coliseum, the rings stood up off the floor
about four foot, then the then the scaffold was 20 foot off of
that. So you 24 foot up, you know, I'm
(53:49):
looking I'm still you stand up on which I never stood up, but I
could look at you look at this Nosebleed section, everybody
usually if you're ringside, that's the best seat that side,
the best seat was up there looking at the Nosebleed section
because you're about level with it.
And you know, we had to imagine,of course, Lauder, he Lawler was
(54:10):
all right on it. Bill Dundee, he got up there.
Of course, he used to do scaffold work for the Australian
stuff and he got up there with jumping and shaking that stuff
around. I've been Austin stood up.
I've never did. Me and Austin boat climbed about
halfway down before we got backed off.
Yeah. They want to spot you to broke
(54:30):
your leg, your arm, your neck, whatever.
That was a high schedule. Then we did one in Louisville,
KY, the same thing. And they did, of course, we just
did that twice and they decided that was very good.
Yeah. I.
Mean absolutely you can go so it's on YouTube.
You can go watch this match and if you look at the other
(54:51):
scaffold matches that that people did, I swear, I think I
think the scaffold you guys are on is probably the tallest one.
I can't think of another one that looked nearly as high as
the one you guys were on. It's insane how tall tall that
one was. Oh, and I'm telling you that, I
mean, I'm not scared person, buttakes a lot to scare me.
(55:12):
But Dad, yeah, I was scared to death.
I mean, that's. Life and death.
I mean, most any other wrestlingmatch, if you know how, if you
know what you're doing and the guy you're in there with knows
what he's doing, there's, you know, there's an element of
danger to it, of course, but youknow, usually just getting hurt.
Your life's not necessarily in danger on average.
(55:32):
But I mean, one wrong move or that scaffold is not set up
correctly. I mean, it could be a disaster.
I mean, those matches, when you look back on them now, you're
like, how did these even happen?Like whose idea was it to do
these damn things? And how did so many of them take
place? And, and honestly, the the
spectacle of them was a big deal.
And I remember as a kid wanting to see them, but I mean, most
(55:54):
all of them were the shits because nobody was going to get
up there and do moves on them. You talk about.
You talk about, I mean the you know, like people talk about
Memphis wrestling, but they I mean they were a lot of the
originate stuff come out of Memphis that everybody followed
(56:15):
doing, you know, you know, the scaffold matches.
I mean, Crockett used to do it, but it all started in Memphis.
Cage on the floor started in Memphis, you know, I mean, so it
was a, you know, Memphis. Memphis was, you know, back,
back in the day, they thought about it crazy.
But that was a trendsetter. You know, they, they see the
(56:37):
future and, and, and did what people want to see.
Now there's another interesting story that comes out of this
match that's going around for years and you know, you guys
weren't excited about going up there, but you got up there.
But rumor has it night of the show.
And once you get out there and see it, Paul Heyman's like, no,
(56:59):
not going up there cuz famously,you know, in 86, a few months
ahead of this, Cornett went off the one that Starrcade with the
Road Warriors. So I'm sure Lawler thought, all
right, well, Polly dangerously is going to go off this thing.
Yeah, Tommy and Tommy and Austin, they can go halfway
down. We'll get by with that.
(57:19):
But we're going to throw Heyman off the middle of this damn
thing. And if he dies, he dies like
Ivan Drago, you know, like, well, if he dies, he dies,
whatever. And so Heyman, like, he didn't
get up there, did he? Like didn't like when I like a
pretty big point of contention with him and Lawler, and that's
kind of what ended his time in Memphis was them wanting him to
go up the scaffold. Yes, good question.
I don't remember. I know he didn't go up there.
(57:41):
I gave you that. And Lawler says that Heyman's
last show, that he, I mean, what's it's a fact that Lawler
punched him and ended up breaking Heyman's jaw.
But he's, you know, for years, people, you know, pondered
whether that was an accident or not.
And then one of these WWE question things like they asked
Lawler and he's like, yeah, I broke his jaw on purpose or
(58:03):
whatever. I don't know if he really broke
his jaw. I'm trusting exaggeration, but
he he he clocked him good and fired him.
But I could just imagine. Yeah.
Paul Heyman falling off of scaffold.
That would have been, yeah. Had been ugly with the fight.
And probably might have been theend of his time in wrestling.
It might have been a wheelchair after that, because I promise
you that scaffold was way higher.
(58:26):
No, I said it'd. Be ugly if I fell off him.
Oh man, can you? Imagine it was so high.
Yeah, poor Bobby. I wouldn't.
Know I wouldn't wish falling offthat bag to my worst enemy.
I mean, Bobby Eaton dropped fromthe middle of that thing and
from what I understand, you know, did some damage to his
knee and everything, but as highas that one you were on if you
(58:48):
got if all that. Ain't no way you fall that far.
Not hurts yourself, no. Definitely not.
There's no good way to do it. You come down on your knees,
you're going to, you're going toscrew your knees up.
You take, you can't fall on yourback from that high.
Oh my God, that hit and. Roll.
I mean, you got to come to Yeah,it ain't.
There ain't no option. Cornett story has always been
that Dusty sold him on it, that big Bubba Rodgers Ray trailer
(59:12):
was going to catch him when he when he fell and Bubba's
standing there and he kind of steps back.
But and that's always been his story is that Bubba lost him in
the lights and didn't catch him.But I'm like it would have
killed both of them he to try tocatch him.
But he said. Dusty told us that he'd catch
you like the cheerleaders catch the cheerleaders at the football
game. And it didn't work out that way.
(59:34):
But I'm glad you guys didn't go out there and get yourselves
killed on that scaffold. But man, what a memorable feud.
1987. It started in December and went
all the way, you know, into June, halfway through the year.
And man, I'm not asking you for dollar amounts, but I'm assuming
this, this probably, you know, paid well and and it was, you
(59:55):
know, probably one of your more substantial Memphis angles of
all time, right? Oh yeah, I made it.
I made it had me, especially Harry.
That's probably the best anglersever done.
I mean, you know me coming out from up to The Cave as far as
money wise, because it was a winwin situation.
(01:00:15):
Like you said, people thought they got screwed on certain
things where the guy might have to lose or leave town, pull his
mask off and that didn't happen or, you know, just different
situations. And but but this was like a
guarantee that you either going to get your money back and you
going to see Lawler get his headshave.
And I'm thinking, you know, and like you said, it was sold out
(01:00:38):
and I, I just, the people's guaranteed to see something.
And they did. It wasn't what they expected,
but they certainly did. I'd have been not.
What they thought, but they got.They've got extra moments in
that one. Well, they sure did.
Well, man, this has been fun going back, you know, reliving
that, like I said, I was 10 years old at the time, watching
(01:00:59):
Memphis wrestling glue to the TVeach and every week, seeing how
this unfolded. And man, you know, if you'd have
told me back then when I was a kid, hey, one day you'll get to
sit with Tommy Rich and sit and ask him all the questions you
want to ask about this whole thing.
I wouldn't believe him. So this is it was really cool
get an opportunity to talk aboutit.
And I'm glad you have such fond memories of this stuff.
(01:01:20):
You talk to some, you know, you hear some of those guys are
like, oh, it's all just your job, man.
And it was it's it's your job you make.
What's code? What's code?
What makes the show the show? You got the history and you
know, you know the right questions, because a lot of that
stuff's a blur to me now, you know, so, so like, and you point
me in that direction and it brings back the old memories and
(01:01:41):
the things that happen. So it's always good.
It's always a pleasure because it's always good stuff, you
know, ain't nothing negativity and just, you know, it's just I
I love doing this show, man. And it's, it's the whole
package. I ain't Doug, you ain't here.
But we got a minute for us to see if we can do it too, you
know, So. So it's been a cool, been a
cool, been a cool show, man. Yeah.
(01:02:04):
Man, I appreciate you. I appreciate you doing it.
I love doing the show every week.
Like I said, it's it's questionsthat I've I've wanted to ask for
years and now I get a chance to and, and I know that's why the
fans enjoy listening to it because, you know, I feel like
these are the questions they would ask you if they have the
opportunity. And then they do get the
opportunity because they send the man and then you guys answer
(01:02:25):
those questions as well. So appreciate you guys doing
this show each and every week. And I know your fans enjoy it.
And we're going to keep this thing going.
And Doug is not going to be withus next week.
He's just going to be getting back into town.
Hey. Ladies, gentlemen, kids and
girls, hey, peace out from title.
(01:02:45):
The Hall of Fame Doug and Tommy carved the name this of fury and
hearts of gold. Every story, every fight retold
tales of glory. Laughing cry 10 sea warriors
(01:03:06):
with hearts open wide on the air.
They're just living without a cave.
On the night they roared on the map, they saw dangerous
conversations. Friends wanna move our gas canes
(01:03:34):
look away. Especially the raising the
state.
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