February 24, 2025 • 31 mins
Nate Williams and the Dangerous Life Team talk about celebrity Christian scandals, common themes, and how we can try to prevent them in our own lives and in our churches.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
Welcome to the Dangerous Faith Podcast.
I have my team with me todaywith Zeke Spencer.
Welcome back, Spencer To all ofthe three Spencer Smith fans
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Well, I don't know, I think you're, I'm.
That's a lot.
I'm one of them.
So that's four.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Justin and Blake.
My name is Nate Williams and weare glad to talk with you today
.
We're covering celebrityscandals.
Why do they happen from aChristian point of view?
So, celebrity Christians, whydoes it seem like so many people
fall in various ways?
And so, to start us out y'all,what are some celebrity
(00:56):
Christians that y'all know orremember who have fallen to
scandal?
Anyone have any names that youcan think of?
Speaker 4 (01:03):
I don't know his name , but the Blake Tetreault oh
crap, shh, not yet we're workingon it.
The Hillsong guy, or?
Speaker 1 (01:11):
was it Hillsong Carl?
Speaker 4 (01:12):
Lentz.
Carl Lentz, that was a big one.
I say it's a big one.
I didn't even know his name, Ijust knew he was like a
celebrity's pastor if that makessense.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
I think Justin Bieber went to his church and stuff
like that, yeah, like KevinDurant, so did Chris Pratt Nate,
he's the big one.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Yeah, Chris Pratt.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
Would you okay, because was his more so, like,
because he did have an extra, hehad an affair, right, that was
his thing, mm-hmm.
So are we just like, limiting?
Are we limiting it to that, orare we talking about like other
scandals as well?
Speaker 1 (01:41):
All of the above.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
So okay, you have that from Hillsong.
What else?
What can you all think of?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Scott Lawson.
Ravi Zacharias, okay, ravi.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Ravi was a big one for me, nathan Williams.
Speaker 5 (01:55):
What's his name?
The pastor that's in that veinof John MacArthur and those.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Scott Lawson.
Speaker 5 (02:02):
No, it was the older guy Mark Driscoll.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Mark Driscoll was big .
Speaker 5 (02:06):
It was the old guy.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Do you remember?
Speaker 5 (02:08):
relationship with Scott Lawson.
He had used like 70.
He was having a relationshipwith like a 20 year old.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
It sounds like Scott Lawson.
Speaker 5 (02:17):
It is.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Okay.
But I could he's pretty old, sowe all can list a few, and
they're particularly devastatingbecause one of the positives
and negatives of the internet isyou can amass a large following
, subscribers, people who payattention to your sermons, your,
(02:37):
your messages, your classes,and so people become online
celebrities on top of thephysical location where they
stay at, where they preach at,and so it's devastating when a
celebrity Christian falls away.
One person I also think of Idon't know if you would include
(02:58):
him in the same group, but KanyeWest comes out with that one
album.
Hey time out Comes out withthat one album, which I don't
know if y'all listen to it.
It's not a bad album.
Some of the songs are actuallydecent, in my opinion, I agree,
and some of them are fine, butthen pretty quickly he then
pulls a Kanye and does somethingelse Literally goes 180 the
(03:21):
other way as fast as possible.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
There was that guy in .
Maverick.
Speaker 5 (03:24):
City that started posting he got drunk or
something, posted nude photos onhis Instagram story.
Chandler Moore no Wait is thathim, chandler Moore, that guy
yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Maybe not.
Speaker 5 (03:38):
I don't want to say the wrong person, but it was.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
I thought he was a singer, chandler's a drummer, no
.
Speaker 5 (03:45):
It was somebody part of Maverick City.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
That's crazy, I don't know, that's why?
Speaker 4 (03:48):
okay, that's why you should not have any of those
pictures of yourself on yourphone.
Yeah, that's why.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Just so you don't accidentally post them on the
screen.
Exactly.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
That's the only reason.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
That's the only reason.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
You yourself safe brother.
We are discussing, yes, thingsyou should or should not have on
your phone, but anyways, allthese examples, and it's
devastating when it comes to ourChristian witness, to the
community, non-believers.
If we say that we representChrist, we are ambassadors for
Jesus, but then we go and dothese things, then that's a poor
reflection of Jesus, his love,his character, and my thoughts
(04:30):
are this Christianity isoffensive enough.
We call people sinners andpeople don't like that.
Why add even more offense withour own scandals and failings?
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Why add unnecessary offense?
Guess?
Speaker 1 (04:42):
unnecessary offense, great term.
All right, as we think of allthese examples and more, we
didn't mention what are somecommon themes or threads?
What do we pick up on that leadto these things happening?
Speaker 3 (04:57):
I think the common thread between all of them is
every one of them is a christianthey were all men.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Or at least professing to be a Christian.
And then Zeke says all men, Iwould say yes, for the most part
.
I'm trying to think Majorfemale celebrity, christian
scandals.
I can think of ones wherethey've just got really bad
theology, but not like a scandal.
Yeah, maybe Paula, why there'ssome Don't talk about my
(05:29):
presidents Word of faith typepreachers that there are some
affairs that went on there, butOK, but yeah, for the most part
men.
Paula Deen, she felt a scandal.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Yes, she did Do you care to share what the scandal
was?
No, I'm good the scandal yes,she did.
Speaker 5 (05:44):
Do you care to share what the scandal was Is?
Speaker 4 (05:46):
it Paula Deen that cooked.
Yeah, paula Deen does cook.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
She was good though I loved her, she could have been
one of the Christian ladies.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
and then you know, hold on y'all.
What did she say?
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Blake, do you care to say?
Speaker 4 (05:55):
Something about too much butter and a very
derogatory name for black people.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Probably that second thing.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
Second, I think that I think that's what got it.
She was adding a lot of butter,though.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Yes, she her saying was a little bit of butter.
Put mama june to shame anyways,all right my.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
My question was as we see these things happening,
what are common threads, whatare common themes?
Speaker 4 (06:22):
just fall into desires.
Most of these are just allworldly desire.
I mean, like we could say, likethe sex scandals.
But it's just what the worldhas to offer.
You know money, sex, lust justgiving into your worldly desires
.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Okay, so giving into worldly desires, justin.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
We can also kind of point out some churches that are
doing scandalous things thatmaybe they haven't fallen Like.
What's one of the guys you toldme about Is it Jesse Duplantis,
who did the whole sermon on hisshoes?
Stuff like that.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
Yeah, that's just bad theology.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
That's what I'm saying is these people are doing
?
They give a bad name forChristians by doing their stuff.
Oh yeah, so it's stillscandalous.
They set their members I meanfor Christians by doing their
stuff.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
It's still scandalous .
They set their members up fordisaster.
I think if they have a poortheology, they set themselves up
to be more susceptible togiving in to their sins.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Spencer.
Speaker 5 (07:16):
This is just going to sound obvious, but they're
celebrities.
That's one thing.
That's a common denominator.
They all have influence outsideof just their bubble, their
church, and they reach morepeople, and so they also a lot
comes with that.
It's a lot of money, a lot ofpeople looking up to you and
(07:37):
there's a lot of pressure andthings like that, and so there's
always eyes on you.
And that's one big thing thatputs them all together.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Yeah To have that, yeah, okay.
So there's pressure, there'sthe thought of excuse me, should
there be such a thing asChristian celebrities or
celebrity Christians?
I don't see a problem with it,okay.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
So if I guess, I guess it depends on how you're
defining it.
Speaker 4 (08:14):
Yeah, how are you defining it?
Speaker 1 (08:16):
People who have this massive online following,
particularly because they'repreaching and they're teaching.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
I mean a part of it is like you can't really help it
.
I mean, like look at BillyGraham, for example.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
So you're saying it's natural.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
For some people it is like, okay, like Billy Graham,
he was a great.
Not only could he like teachI'm not agreeing with his later
stuff, I'm talking like earlyBilly Graham but even then he's
just a great charismatic person.
He could talk well, peoplereally gravitated towards that,
the authority he kind ofcommanded.
There are just some people thatjust have that ability.
Rc Sproul I would consider hima celebrity Christian and
(08:55):
there's just like I don't thinksome people can really help it.
It's what you do with, it iswhat's important.
It's just like you could go RCSproul route, which I believe he
led a pretty humble life in,but he was big in the whole
sphere.
Tim Keller is another personthat comes to mind.
But then you think of peoplelike Stephen Furtick, carl Lentz
, who it gets to their head andso and I'll talk about this
(09:18):
later once we start bringing itup more their head and so and
I'll talk about this later, oncewe start bringing it up more.
But there's a parable in theBible that really kind of
answers the question to all thatfor me when it comes to the
scandals and why people do it so.
But we'll get to that lateronce we Sure.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
So these scandals happen and it affects a lot of
people.
I think one thing I'd alsopoint out is there's no one in
their inner circle that holdsthem accountable.
And sometimes, when you havesomeone who gets that popular
that fast, our ego comes intoplay and people think they're
(09:53):
untouchable.
People think they can, they'reabove the law, they're above
accountability.
They'll tell their elder boardor whatever it's like you need
me, I built this.
Or they'll tell someone they'respiritually abusing.
Well, I just do so much work, Ido so much good for the kingdom
.
Let me have this one sin.
(10:14):
Let me, you know, spiritualmanipulation tactics so wicked
and it's evil, it's wicked.
So if we're done mentioningmaybe common themes and threads,
let's then turn it over.
What can we do to maybe helpprevent some of it?
You can't prevent all of it.
We're humans, but what are somethings we can do as, I guess,
(10:37):
everyday believers, everydayChristians in our own lives,
with leaders in our own churches?
What can?
Speaker 2 (10:44):
we do.
I mean, it goes back to whatyou said of setting up Okay,
Like if we're the person that'shas a, that there's a potential
we might become a person in aposition like that, whether it's
small or big, it's settingyourself up ahead of time with
other people to keep you incheck I mean, that's kind of
what you were talking about oflike, there's a lot of these
(11:05):
guys.
A common theme is there was noaccountability.
Robbie zechariah's like, aftereverything happened, a lot of
people came out.
It's like, honestly, like hereally didn't let that many
people close to him.
Um heard the same with uh, Iforget the name.
There's another one that thatwas similar.
It was like, yeah, like he hadthis big platform stuff, but
like he had he never let any ofthe elders or anything like that
hold him accountable.
(11:25):
And you need to have peoplewhether it's elders or whatever
other, depends on your ministry.
If it's a church ministry, thenyeah, you need to have your
elders be the people that lookafter you, that you can come to,
that you can confess and sayand say, hey, I need you to tell
me the hard things, and it'speople who are not afraid to do
that I love that spencer I think, one thing too is the
Speaker 5 (11:46):
attention that's given to them is a big issue.
It's like, you see, every othervideo on youtube could be like
a heretic says heresy.
It's like, guys, why are wetalking about this?
Why is this being?
Why are we putting this in thelimelight?
Because these people, they'rejust going to keep doing it,
especially if you get themattention, especially that, but
(12:07):
it's no surprise.
We should put more emphasis onthe church that we have in our
local community and also goodtheology.
That should be the biggestthing that we should focus on.
We shouldn't be focusing on thesparkle creed.
Like that church was going to dothat.
But the more fire that you givethem, the brighter it's going
(12:30):
to go.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
I think one thing that we have to keep in mind in
our own hearts is idolatry, thatyes, you have a lot of talented
and charismatic leaders, andnaturally they rise to the top
of whatever they're doing.
But it's on all of us not toelevate certain people too high
(12:52):
to the place of God, and so Iremember.
The example I use for me isRavi Zacharias.
I really looked up to him.
I love the way he talked topeople, I love the way that he
told stories and he mixed hisconsiderable intellectual talent
with this persona that he puton of just loving and caring,
(13:14):
being kind and gracious.
But then we find out later hewas none of those things in real
life, but at least you know,towards certain people.
But anyways, we are alsoresponsible for our idolatry.
So I can think of people that Ilook up to today.
Uh, a couple apologists I enjoy, you think sean mcdowell, frank
(13:34):
turek cliff connectly, orhowever you pronounce it.
Koneckle, koneckley, I don'tknow.
Koneckley it's kind ofoverrated.
Now, all right, blake, and sowhat about y'all?
What are the people who youlike to listen to?
Anyone come to mind?
Speaker 4 (13:49):
Nate Williams.
Speaker 5 (13:51):
Oh boy.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Gross, he's gross, he's gross.
So do Do not idolize me.
Not that you would Too late.
Don't do it Too late.
Anyone else, who do y'all liketo listen to?
Speaker 5 (14:00):
I think the biggest person that I would be like
really disappointed if somethingcame out would be Gavin Ortlin.
Gavin Ortlin yeah, I like him,he's good, he's just he seems so
solid and like if anythinghappened it would be.
It would be pretty devastating.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
I'd be pretty devastated if something happened
with RC Sproul.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
RC Sproul.
What is that Zeke?
Mention your person, the loveof your life.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Jerry Root.
Yeah, if something happened toJerry Root, there he goes.
Mike Winger, dude Mike Winger.
Oh, dude Mike Winger fell.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
I had a dream about that, that he fell.
Wow Did he?
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Isaac cried Did you, I couldn't do blank inconsolable
.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
I was trying to console Isaac you, you already
dream about Mike winger.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
I well, I legit know I had a dream that he fell and
Isaac, me and him were likewatch it.
It was like it was.
It was bad, like Isaac was soinconsolable.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
I legit called Zeke and Zeke wouldn't even answer.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
I was too depressed, it's too much, were just in
despair, dude all the winglings.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
I was in so much shock I couldn't cry.
Isaac was inconsolable, thoughI don't know if.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Isaac could go on.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
I think Isaac would probably leave the face.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
He'd be like Jesus you took Mike, you gotta take me
too.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
Take me, bro, but anyway.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
So Mike Winger is a big one in our group.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
Who uh David Wood something.
He's too much of a psychopath.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Yeah, to be fair he's already kind of went down his
bad road yeah, he already gotcanceled before Christian, so
like he did it at the right time.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
He did it before it that is true, he really did.
Yes, if something happened toStephen Furtick I would cry.
He's your guy, mari Mari yeahyou're an orthy bro orthy
Speaker 2 (15:35):
bro Worthy bro You're an worthy bro, I like some of
the stuff he says man, Nah, he'sgood.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
All right.
So that would be on us.
As we consume their content andwe learn from them, they
produce a lot of good stuff.
That's on us to not elevatethem more than we should.
But then, when it comes tochurch leadership and so this is
for all of us talent is asecondary consideration, after
(16:01):
character.
What happens?
A tale as old as time.
Someone comes in.
They're good looking,hardworking, they're smart,
they're charismatic, they'rewitty, good with people, they're
personable, and naturallypeople are like oh, you make a
good leader.
And so we put them on a stage,we put them behind a pulpit, we
put them in video, whateversocial media, and because of all
(16:25):
those things they're talented,they're gifted.
They then become more and morepopular, but the whole time
there's not discipleship andmentorship and there's not what
I talk about sweeping the floorsand scrubbing the tables and
all the rest of it, the behindthe scenes service that needs to
happen.
You just give people a mic waytoo quickly, and so we have to
(16:48):
make sure giftedness and talentdoes not outweigh the character
that's supposed to be therefirst.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
Amen.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
But anyways, why do you think that is?
Why do you think our culturelikes to promote people with
talent but not character?
Because it draws the biggestnumbers?
That might be a reason.
Do you think that's theirthought process whenever it
happens?
Does Zeke?
Speaker 3 (17:11):
have a reason.
Does Zeke have the reason?
Oh, I didn't know that therewas one.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
I'm genuinely curious .
That may be one of them, but Ifeel like the people putting
them in a position are lookingat it and say, ooh, here's
someone I can put in and it'sgoing to bring in a lot of
number, I'm going to make a lotof money.
Some people may do that, butI'm going to try and be fair and
say that's not their intent.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
I think because our Christian mindset is to grow.
The can literally just meantaking what you have and
spiritually growing them.
But as Christians we hear grow,we automatically think
numerical.
So you think about it like thisIf Joe Rogan converted to
Christianity, we'd want to get amic in his hands immediately
because of the amount of peoplewe think he could.
I don't think he would convertthat many people.
I think he would just have abig platform for Christianity.
(17:54):
But some people's mindsets areif we can get this mega popular
Justin Bieber.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
What about the people who don't start out as
celebrities but now have becomeit?
But they start out as just acharismatic, talented person and
they're like, hey, let's putthis guy behind the mic before.
He's kind of had discipleship.
Why do they do that?
Speaker 4 (18:15):
It's the same thing.
It's because entertainmentsells rather than authenticity.
So like, for instance, I lovethis pastor that I listen to.
He's an amazing pastor right,he's, but he's not.
But he's not like.
He is not like what peoplewould call charismatic.
He's very knowledgeable, verysolid in his theology and I love
(18:35):
it Right.
But most people, especially babyChristians, they go for like
the emotional in your face kindof like I know you're struggling
like almost like that propheticword and that sells because
that's entertainment.
They don't want to hear open upto Joshua five and we're going
to learn about the fall ofJericho.
(18:56):
They don't want to hear aboutthat.
They want to hear like how canI make my, how can I get a
financial blessing?
They want the in your face rah,rah, rah, emotionally uplifting
stuff, Cause that stuff sells,it's a dopamine, it it's a
dopamine, it's like a dopaminerush.
So you're not going to putsomebody who's boring behind the
pulpit.
You're going to put somebodywho's going to say the things
you want to hear, the thingslike in Second Timothy, whatever
(19:17):
the thing that scratches theirears.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
They want to hear that because that stuff sells.
I agree, and so I think y'allare correct in the things you're
pointing out.
Part of it also, zeke, is alack of leaders in the next
generation.
So when the boomers eventually,as they retire and pass on,
there's going to be countlesschurches, particularly smaller
churches, churches where there'snot a pipeline of next
(19:47):
generation leaders.
A lot of churches are going tobe hurting for pastors and
sometimes when we see someonepromising, we mean well, but the
first thought is get them upthere, get them experience, get
them going.
And developing people overyears takes a lot of time, a lot
(20:08):
of frustration.
There are setbacks, people riseand fall, learn and grow and
are humbled and all the rest ofit.
And slow discipleship is notflashy, it's not always fun, and
that's where people can say, oh, let's skip all that, this
person's talented and we canjust hand them a mic.
(20:28):
And so people generally meanwell, at least sometimes in my
opinion.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
What do y'all think should be the okay?
So let's say, ideally a pastorgoes from working at a church
not being the lead pastor, justworking at a church, maybe in
the form of youth ministry, likeyou do, or in the form of, like
some other service at thechurch.
How long should the averageperson be working in some of
those lower forms occasionallypreaching, doing stuff like that
(20:55):
before they take on a leadposition?
Speaker 4 (20:57):
I feel like that's a God question.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
I'm not saying it's always the same for every person
, but like what would be theminimum where you're like it
would be very.
It would have to be a veryweird or a very special
situation where I would say, ifit's less than this, then like
that person, that has to be justextremely gifted by God.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
And even then I don't think the question has a
minimum.
I think people grow spirituallyin different areas, become more
spiritually mature in certainareas, and it takes a certain
amount of time for differentpeople.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
If I had to put a minimum on it, though.
How long did Paul when Paulbecame a Christian?
How long was he disciple foruntil he started?
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Was it three years?
So there's.
I would say there were a fewyears give or take.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
I would say three to five If you had to put a minimum
on it, I think three to five.
Simply because, like for me,when Nate started mentoring me,
I didn't become a youth pastoruntil I'm not even a youth
pastor, just a youth leader.
I didn't become that untilprobably third year, fourth year
(22:00):
.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Give or take.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
But in those first two years though, I wasn't like
he wasn't like training me forthat, we were just training on
how to serve the church, andthrough all that you learn what
your gifts and what yourcallings are.
So my gift and my calling justhappen to be youth ministry
right now, and you know it cangrow from wherever that I might
be a youth minister until I die,and that'd be a okay with me.
(22:22):
I know that I'm not upset aboutthat.
Any way that I can serve thekingdom is how I'll serve the
kingdom.
But if you're going to put aminimum on it I think three to
five years you just, you justget so much knowledge.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
What do you think?
Would you be like Justin, bewishy-washy, like, oh well, we
can just put him up therebecause he's cool and funny, or
would you say no, that's exactly, yes, what Justin was saying.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
I think for me it needs to be a long enough time
to where the congregation, thelocal church family can see
fruit, where you see there'sfaithfulness, the ups and the
downs and you live life and it'snot fun and it's not flashy
Again.
That's the big thing.
(23:03):
But is someone consistent?
Are they reliable?
Are they kind?
How do they handle trials?
And as the years go by, let'ssay you're seeing someone grow
up in the church or a churchmember, whatever you see their
faithfulness, you can say, allright, I think that person's
ready for leadership.
Broken and I'm not going toblame any one person or whatever
(23:37):
for this.
But you look at churches andwhen they need a pastor, what do
they do?
They open up the search andthey put it on Indeed or
whatever and you go and you hirea pastor.
A lot of churches have to dothat and that's fine.
But what happens is you hiresomeone who's basically a
stranger and you hope they'regood, talented, plus character
and all the rest of it.
You hope so and sometimes itdoesn't work out, whereas the
(23:59):
ideal model is watching peoplegrow up from a young age and
they're living their life andyou have an intergenerational
church and people at high school, college, young adults and all
the rest of it, and you've knownthem for years and you can
point out and you can say, hey,you would be a wonderful deacon,
(24:19):
elder pastor, and then they goout they get training, go to
seminary, whatever, and thenthey come back and serve in
their local church.
That would be the ideal model.
So you really get to know yourleaders.
But that's not what we do thesedays.
We go, we hire somebody andhope it works out.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
But, anyway, justin.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Yeah, man, I remember when I got hired.
Well, you want to talk?
Speaker 4 (24:43):
close to the microphone buddy.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
Sorry.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
We already made this episode really hard for Nate.
I've made this episode reallyhard for Nate.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
He's got like three things he's got to edit.
Thank goodness for that.
Speaker 4 (24:53):
Four things now.
Skip a D.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Keep that in.
Keep that in.
But well, now I forgot what Iwas going to say, blake.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
That's good.
It probably wasn't worthanything anyways.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
You're right, golly so mean to each other Kicking
while he's down dude.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
All right, all kicking while he's down, dude.
All right, all of the editinggoing on, but anyways.
Uh, so I think we covered a lotof ground.
Uh, common themes, how toprevent them, but things to look
for.
If you're looking for a newchurch, be wary of people who
lead the church and it's justone person, because, biblically,
(25:34):
what are we supposed to have?
Speaker 5 (25:36):
Deacons elders.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Deacons and elders and there are different terms
for stuff, but it's supposed tobe leadership there You're
telling me we're not supposed toradio satellite.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
A pastor across three campuses.
I was just thinking about that.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
No.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
But that makes so much sense.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
It makes so much money, it makes so much money,
money makes sense.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
Yeah, justin.
Well, that's one thing I wasgoing to say is make sure the
pastor talks about nothing butmoney, and especially if they
say that God asked them foradvice, you know you're at the
right place.
Speaker 5 (26:09):
And God is going to prosper you in everything that
you do.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
That's right, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
yes, name it claim always and all the time you're
going to get whatever you wantsome good, solid theology being
proclaimed by the nextgeneration and okay.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
So be wary also if you run into people who cannot
be questioned.
And for all of y'all's jokesabout me, one thing I do enjoy
is when y'all push back on stuffand ask me questions or
disagree with me.
I like that because we can workthings out.
If you are with a pastor andyou cannot question him or he
gets defensive when you say, hey, why do we do this, why do we
(26:48):
do that?
That's probably not a healthyenvironment.
And again it goes back to MarkDriscoll.
If you go and listen to theChristianity Today, rise and
Fall of Mars Hill, you can gosee all that.
But anyways, just incrediblestory, also very saddening, but
yes, you could not question.
To question him was to questionGod and that's very dangerous.
(27:11):
To question him was to questionGod and that's very dangerous.
That's so blasphemous.
But anyways, any final thoughtson the topic celebrity
Christian scandals and what wecan do about it on our end, what
things to look for Go ahead, Goahead.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
Justin.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
You raise your hand.
I was just going to say a quotefrom Mr Nathan Williams over
here, who just said that we'reallowed to question him, because
we absolutely can question him.
But to quote him, it's not thathe's never been wrong, it's
that wrong has never been him.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
That was a quote.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
That is a quote from you.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
That was a quote.
When did I say that I need theday?
Guys, if you're hearing this.
Speaker 4 (27:48):
This is a plea for help.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Please, please, help.
He trapped us in here, he'strapped us.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
He's the next Mars Triskel.
Help, we haven't eaten in threedays.
Get back to work.
I will say this A really coolthing when I was thinking about
this because I was thinkingabout the podcast topic earlier
during church is we had justfinished up Mark, chapter 4, and
it was the parable of the soils, and I really like, or I really
(28:12):
like how, like when you see thescripture really come to life,
in the sense of you see it playout in real life, and so I was
thinking about the part whereyou know it's like the, it's the
seed that is dropped and itsprings up, but then like thorns
and thorns choke it out.
That's kind of like what you seewith the celebrity pastors is
that kind of soil beingdemonstrated, and you know it is
(28:33):
heartbreaking.
But at the same time, this islike why Jesus told us this
parable, and it's the oneparable he told us like if you
don't understand it, you won'tunderstand any of the other
parables.
So it's really cool to like seeit work through it.
Not cool as in like it's coolwhat happened to him.
But the truth of the word, thetruth of the word being on full
display and knowing like for us,I like to think we're in here,
(28:54):
we're all good soil, you know,sometimes we can be different
soil, but most of the time weare good soil Just to see that
address it, but then also havethe humility to say, hey, we can
fix this.
We don't have to like justdestroy somebody's life over it.
Yeah, spencer.
Speaker 5 (29:08):
I think it's easy to get caught up in one person or
one personality, even if theyare teaching correct theology,
but I love you so much.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
I appreciate that.
Speaker 5 (29:20):
But it's so easy to do that, and we just have to
catch ourselves and remindourselves that our faith is
truly in Christ and in the wordof God and in what the church
teaches and that's not just oneperson, that's a whole group,
and so if your whole faithleverages on one person's
(29:42):
teachings or one person's moralfailings, then you're just
you're going to have this life.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
So what Spencer said hits the nail on the head Hold
to the word, be active in yourlocal church, support your local
pastor in a healthy way and yes, Unhealthy.
Speaker 4 (30:05):
You can't make me All right.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
That's accurate, spencer.
Since you have just rejoined us, I'm going to give you the
honor of sending us off for thisepisode.
How would you like to finishthe episode?
Speaker 2 (30:21):
I'd say, let's pray I like it chooses wholesome I was
just gonna crunch a chip
Speaker 1 (30:28):
and his wholesomeness .
All right, spencer.
Speaker 5 (30:30):
Pray for us all right dear, be with us as we go
throughout this week.
Let us be bright lights for youin this dark world and remind
us each and every day where ourhope is, where it lies, in the
truth of your word and in theglory and grace of your son
Jesus Christ.
In your name I pray.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Amen.
Speaker 5 (30:45):
Thank you.
Welcome to the Dangerous Faith Podcast.
I have my team with me todaywith Zeke Spencer.
Welcome back, Spencer To all ofthe three Spencer Smith fans
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Well, I don't know, I think you're, I'm.
That's a lot.
I'm one of them.
So that's four.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Justin and Blake.
My name is Nate Williams and weare glad to talk with you today
.
We're covering celebrityscandals.
Why do they happen from aChristian point of view?
So, celebrity Christians, whydoes it seem like so many people
fall in various ways?
And so, to start us out y'all,what are some celebrity
(00:56):
Christians that y'all know orremember who have fallen to
scandal?
Anyone have any names that youcan think of?
Speaker 4 (01:03):
I don't know his name , but the Blake Tetreault oh
crap, shh, not yet we're workingon it.
The Hillsong guy, or?
Speaker 1 (01:11):
was it Hillsong Carl?
Speaker 4 (01:12):
Lentz.
Carl Lentz, that was a big one.
I say it's a big one.
I didn't even know his name, Ijust knew he was like a
celebrity's pastor if that makessense.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
I think Justin Bieber went to his church and stuff
like that, yeah, like KevinDurant, so did Chris Pratt Nate,
he's the big one.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Yeah, Chris Pratt.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
Would you okay, because was his more so, like,
because he did have an extra, hehad an affair, right, that was
his thing, mm-hmm.
So are we just like, limiting?
Are we limiting it to that, orare we talking about like other
scandals as well?
Speaker 1 (01:41):
All of the above.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
So okay, you have that from Hillsong.
What else?
What can you all think of?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Scott Lawson.
Ravi Zacharias, okay, ravi.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Ravi was a big one for me, nathan Williams.
Speaker 5 (01:55):
What's his name?
The pastor that's in that veinof John MacArthur and those.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Scott Lawson.
Speaker 5 (02:02):
No, it was the older guy Mark Driscoll.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Mark Driscoll was big .
Speaker 5 (02:06):
It was the old guy.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Do you remember?
Speaker 5 (02:08):
relationship with Scott Lawson.
He had used like 70.
He was having a relationshipwith like a 20 year old.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
It sounds like Scott Lawson.
Speaker 5 (02:17):
It is.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Okay.
But I could he's pretty old, sowe all can list a few, and
they're particularly devastatingbecause one of the positives
and negatives of the internet isyou can amass a large following
, subscribers, people who payattention to your sermons, your,
(02:37):
your messages, your classes,and so people become online
celebrities on top of thephysical location where they
stay at, where they preach at,and so it's devastating when a
celebrity Christian falls away.
One person I also think of Idon't know if you would include
(02:58):
him in the same group, but KanyeWest comes out with that one
album.
Hey time out Comes out withthat one album, which I don't
know if y'all listen to it.
It's not a bad album.
Some of the songs are actuallydecent, in my opinion, I agree,
and some of them are fine, butthen pretty quickly he then
pulls a Kanye and does somethingelse Literally goes 180 the
(03:21):
other way as fast as possible.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
There was that guy in .
Maverick.
Speaker 5 (03:24):
City that started posting he got drunk or
something, posted nude photos onhis Instagram story.
Chandler Moore no Wait is thathim, chandler Moore, that guy
yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Maybe not.
Speaker 5 (03:38):
I don't want to say the wrong person, but it was.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
I thought he was a singer, chandler's a drummer, no
.
Speaker 5 (03:45):
It was somebody part of Maverick City.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
That's crazy, I don't know, that's why?
Speaker 4 (03:48):
okay, that's why you should not have any of those
pictures of yourself on yourphone.
Yeah, that's why.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Just so you don't accidentally post them on the
screen.
Exactly.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
That's the only reason.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
That's the only reason.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
You yourself safe brother.
We are discussing, yes, thingsyou should or should not have on
your phone, but anyways, allthese examples, and it's
devastating when it comes to ourChristian witness, to the
community, non-believers.
If we say that we representChrist, we are ambassadors for
Jesus, but then we go and dothese things, then that's a poor
reflection of Jesus, his love,his character, and my thoughts
(04:30):
are this Christianity isoffensive enough.
We call people sinners andpeople don't like that.
Why add even more offense withour own scandals and failings?
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Why add unnecessary offense?
Guess?
Speaker 1 (04:42):
unnecessary offense, great term.
All right, as we think of allthese examples and more, we
didn't mention what are somecommon themes or threads?
What do we pick up on that leadto these things happening?
Speaker 3 (04:57):
I think the common thread between all of them is
every one of them is a christianthey were all men.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Or at least professing to be a Christian.
And then Zeke says all men, Iwould say yes, for the most part
.
I'm trying to think Majorfemale celebrity, christian
scandals.
I can think of ones wherethey've just got really bad
theology, but not like a scandal.
Yeah, maybe Paula, why there'ssome Don't talk about my
(05:29):
presidents Word of faith typepreachers that there are some
affairs that went on there, butOK, but yeah, for the most part
men.
Paula Deen, she felt a scandal.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Yes, she did Do you care to share what the scandal
was?
No, I'm good the scandal yes,she did.
Speaker 5 (05:44):
Do you care to share what the scandal was Is?
Speaker 4 (05:46):
it Paula Deen that cooked.
Yeah, paula Deen does cook.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
She was good though I loved her, she could have been
one of the Christian ladies.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
and then you know, hold on y'all.
What did she say?
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Blake, do you care to say?
Speaker 4 (05:55):
Something about too much butter and a very
derogatory name for black people.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Probably that second thing.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
Second, I think that I think that's what got it.
She was adding a lot of butter,though.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Yes, she her saying was a little bit of butter.
Put mama june to shame anyways,all right my.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
My question was as we see these things happening,
what are common threads, whatare common themes?
Speaker 4 (06:22):
just fall into desires.
Most of these are just allworldly desire.
I mean, like we could say, likethe sex scandals.
But it's just what the worldhas to offer.
You know money, sex, lust justgiving into your worldly desires
.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Okay, so giving into worldly desires, justin.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
We can also kind of point out some churches that are
doing scandalous things thatmaybe they haven't fallen Like.
What's one of the guys you toldme about Is it Jesse Duplantis,
who did the whole sermon on hisshoes?
Stuff like that.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
Yeah, that's just bad theology.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
That's what I'm saying is these people are doing
?
They give a bad name forChristians by doing their stuff.
Oh yeah, so it's stillscandalous.
They set their members I meanfor Christians by doing their
stuff.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
It's still scandalous .
They set their members up fordisaster.
I think if they have a poortheology, they set themselves up
to be more susceptible togiving in to their sins.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Spencer.
Speaker 5 (07:16):
This is just going to sound obvious, but they're
celebrities.
That's one thing.
That's a common denominator.
They all have influence outsideof just their bubble, their
church, and they reach morepeople, and so they also a lot
comes with that.
It's a lot of money, a lot ofpeople looking up to you and
(07:37):
there's a lot of pressure andthings like that, and so there's
always eyes on you.
And that's one big thing thatputs them all together.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
Yeah To have that, yeah, okay.
So there's pressure, there'sthe thought of excuse me, should
there be such a thing asChristian celebrities or
celebrity Christians?
I don't see a problem with it,okay.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
So if I guess, I guess it depends on how you're
defining it.
Speaker 4 (08:14):
Yeah, how are you defining it?
Speaker 1 (08:16):
People who have this massive online following,
particularly because they'repreaching and they're teaching.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
I mean a part of it is like you can't really help it
.
I mean, like look at BillyGraham, for example.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
So you're saying it's natural.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
For some people it is like, okay, like Billy Graham,
he was a great.
Not only could he like teachI'm not agreeing with his later
stuff, I'm talking like earlyBilly Graham but even then he's
just a great charismatic person.
He could talk well, peoplereally gravitated towards that,
the authority he kind ofcommanded.
There are just some people thatjust have that ability.
Rc Sproul I would consider hima celebrity Christian and
(08:55):
there's just like I don't thinksome people can really help it.
It's what you do with, it iswhat's important.
It's just like you could go RCSproul route, which I believe he
led a pretty humble life in,but he was big in the whole
sphere.
Tim Keller is another personthat comes to mind.
But then you think of peoplelike Stephen Furtick, carl Lentz
, who it gets to their head andso and I'll talk about this
(09:18):
later once we start bringing itup more their head and so and
I'll talk about this later, oncewe start bringing it up more.
But there's a parable in theBible that really kind of
answers the question to all thatfor me when it comes to the
scandals and why people do it so.
But we'll get to that lateronce we Sure.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
So these scandals happen and it affects a lot of
people.
I think one thing I'd alsopoint out is there's no one in
their inner circle that holdsthem accountable.
And sometimes, when you havesomeone who gets that popular
that fast, our ego comes intoplay and people think they're
(09:53):
untouchable.
People think they can, they'reabove the law, they're above
accountability.
They'll tell their elder boardor whatever it's like you need
me, I built this.
Or they'll tell someone they'respiritually abusing.
Well, I just do so much work, Ido so much good for the kingdom
.
Let me have this one sin.
(10:14):
Let me, you know, spiritualmanipulation tactics so wicked
and it's evil, it's wicked.
So if we're done mentioningmaybe common themes and threads,
let's then turn it over.
What can we do to maybe helpprevent some of it?
You can't prevent all of it.
We're humans, but what are somethings we can do as, I guess,
(10:37):
everyday believers, everydayChristians in our own lives,
with leaders in our own churches?
What can?
Speaker 2 (10:44):
we do.
I mean, it goes back to whatyou said of setting up Okay,
Like if we're the person that'shas a, that there's a potential
we might become a person in aposition like that, whether it's
small or big, it's settingyourself up ahead of time with
other people to keep you incheck I mean, that's kind of
what you were talking about oflike, there's a lot of these
(11:05):
guys.
A common theme is there was noaccountability.
Robbie zechariah's like, aftereverything happened, a lot of
people came out.
It's like, honestly, like hereally didn't let that many
people close to him.
Um heard the same with uh, Iforget the name.
There's another one that thatwas similar.
It was like, yeah, like he hadthis big platform stuff, but
like he had he never let any ofthe elders or anything like that
hold him accountable.
(11:25):
And you need to have peoplewhether it's elders or whatever
other, depends on your ministry.
If it's a church ministry, thenyeah, you need to have your
elders be the people that lookafter you, that you can come to,
that you can confess and sayand say, hey, I need you to tell
me the hard things, and it'speople who are not afraid to do
that I love that spencer I think, one thing too is the
Speaker 5 (11:46):
attention that's given to them is a big issue.
It's like, you see, every othervideo on youtube could be like
a heretic says heresy.
It's like, guys, why are wetalking about this?
Why is this being?
Why are we putting this in thelimelight?
Because these people, they'rejust going to keep doing it,
especially if you get themattention, especially that, but
(12:07):
it's no surprise.
We should put more emphasis onthe church that we have in our
local community and also goodtheology.
That should be the biggestthing that we should focus on.
We shouldn't be focusing on thesparkle creed.
Like that church was going to dothat.
But the more fire that you givethem, the brighter it's going
(12:30):
to go.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
I think one thing that we have to keep in mind in
our own hearts is idolatry, thatyes, you have a lot of talented
and charismatic leaders, andnaturally they rise to the top
of whatever they're doing.
But it's on all of us not toelevate certain people too high
(12:52):
to the place of God, and so Iremember.
The example I use for me isRavi Zacharias.
I really looked up to him.
I love the way he talked topeople, I love the way that he
told stories and he mixed hisconsiderable intellectual talent
with this persona that he puton of just loving and caring,
(13:14):
being kind and gracious.
But then we find out later hewas none of those things in real
life, but at least you know,towards certain people.
But anyways, we are alsoresponsible for our idolatry.
So I can think of people that Ilook up to today.
Uh, a couple apologists I enjoy, you think sean mcdowell, frank
(13:34):
turek cliff connectly, orhowever you pronounce it.
Koneckle, koneckley, I don'tknow.
Koneckley it's kind ofoverrated.
Now, all right, blake, and sowhat about y'all?
What are the people who youlike to listen to?
Anyone come to mind?
Speaker 4 (13:49):
Nate Williams.
Speaker 5 (13:51):
Oh boy.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Gross, he's gross, he's gross.
So do Do not idolize me.
Not that you would Too late.
Don't do it Too late.
Anyone else, who do y'all liketo listen to?
Speaker 5 (14:00):
I think the biggest person that I would be like
really disappointed if somethingcame out would be Gavin Ortlin.
Gavin Ortlin yeah, I like him,he's good, he's just he seems so
solid and like if anythinghappened it would be.
It would be pretty devastating.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
I'd be pretty devastated if something happened
with RC Sproul.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
RC Sproul.
What is that Zeke?
Mention your person, the loveof your life.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Jerry Root.
Yeah, if something happened toJerry Root, there he goes.
Mike Winger, dude Mike Winger.
Oh, dude Mike Winger fell.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
I had a dream about that, that he fell.
Wow Did he?
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Isaac cried Did you, I couldn't do blank inconsolable
.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
I was trying to console Isaac you, you already
dream about Mike winger.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
I well, I legit know I had a dream that he fell and
Isaac, me and him were likewatch it.
It was like it was.
It was bad, like Isaac was soinconsolable.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
I legit called Zeke and Zeke wouldn't even answer.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
I was too depressed, it's too much, were just in
despair, dude all the winglings.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
I was in so much shock I couldn't cry.
Isaac was inconsolable, thoughI don't know if.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Isaac could go on.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
I think Isaac would probably leave the face.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
He'd be like Jesus you took Mike, you gotta take me
too.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
Take me, bro, but anyway.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
So Mike Winger is a big one in our group.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
Who uh David Wood something.
He's too much of a psychopath.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Yeah, to be fair he's already kind of went down his
bad road yeah, he already gotcanceled before Christian, so
like he did it at the right time.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
He did it before it that is true, he really did.
Yes, if something happened toStephen Furtick I would cry.
He's your guy, mari Mari yeahyou're an orthy bro orthy
Speaker 2 (15:35):
bro Worthy bro You're an worthy bro, I like some of
the stuff he says man, Nah, he'sgood.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
All right.
So that would be on us.
As we consume their content andwe learn from them, they
produce a lot of good stuff.
That's on us to not elevatethem more than we should.
But then, when it comes tochurch leadership and so this is
for all of us talent is asecondary consideration, after
(16:01):
character.
What happens?
A tale as old as time.
Someone comes in.
They're good looking,hardworking, they're smart,
they're charismatic, they'rewitty, good with people, they're
personable, and naturallypeople are like oh, you make a
good leader.
And so we put them on a stage,we put them behind a pulpit, we
put them in video, whateversocial media, and because of all
(16:25):
those things they're talented,they're gifted.
They then become more and morepopular, but the whole time
there's not discipleship andmentorship and there's not what
I talk about sweeping the floorsand scrubbing the tables and
all the rest of it, the behindthe scenes service that needs to
happen.
You just give people a mic waytoo quickly, and so we have to
(16:48):
make sure giftedness and talentdoes not outweigh the character
that's supposed to be therefirst.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
Amen.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
But anyways, why do you think that is?
Why do you think our culturelikes to promote people with
talent but not character?
Because it draws the biggestnumbers?
That might be a reason.
Do you think that's theirthought process whenever it
happens?
Does Zeke?
Speaker 3 (17:11):
have a reason.
Does Zeke have the reason?
Oh, I didn't know that therewas one.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
I'm genuinely curious .
That may be one of them, but Ifeel like the people putting
them in a position are lookingat it and say, ooh, here's
someone I can put in and it'sgoing to bring in a lot of
number, I'm going to make a lotof money.
Some people may do that, butI'm going to try and be fair and
say that's not their intent.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
I think because our Christian mindset is to grow.
The can literally just meantaking what you have and
spiritually growing them.
But as Christians we hear grow,we automatically think
numerical.
So you think about it like thisIf Joe Rogan converted to
Christianity, we'd want to get amic in his hands immediately
because of the amount of peoplewe think he could.
I don't think he would convertthat many people.
I think he would just have abig platform for Christianity.
(17:54):
But some people's mindsets areif we can get this mega popular
Justin Bieber.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
What about the people who don't start out as
celebrities but now have becomeit?
But they start out as just acharismatic, talented person and
they're like, hey, let's putthis guy behind the mic before.
He's kind of had discipleship.
Why do they do that?
Speaker 4 (18:15):
It's the same thing.
It's because entertainmentsells rather than authenticity.
So like, for instance, I lovethis pastor that I listen to.
He's an amazing pastor right,he's, but he's not.
But he's not like.
He is not like what peoplewould call charismatic.
He's very knowledgeable, verysolid in his theology and I love
(18:35):
it Right.
But most people, especially babyChristians, they go for like
the emotional in your face kindof like I know you're struggling
like almost like that propheticword and that sells because
that's entertainment.
They don't want to hear open upto Joshua five and we're going
to learn about the fall ofJericho.
(18:56):
They don't want to hear aboutthat.
They want to hear like how canI make my, how can I get a
financial blessing?
They want the in your face rah,rah, rah, emotionally uplifting
stuff, Cause that stuff sells,it's a dopamine, it it's a
dopamine, it's like a dopaminerush.
So you're not going to putsomebody who's boring behind the
pulpit.
You're going to put somebodywho's going to say the things
you want to hear, the thingslike in Second Timothy, whatever
(19:17):
the thing that scratches theirears.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
They want to hear that because that stuff sells.
I agree, and so I think y'allare correct in the things you're
pointing out.
Part of it also, zeke, is alack of leaders in the next
generation.
So when the boomers eventually,as they retire and pass on,
there's going to be countlesschurches, particularly smaller
churches, churches where there'snot a pipeline of next
(19:47):
generation leaders.
A lot of churches are going tobe hurting for pastors and
sometimes when we see someonepromising, we mean well, but the
first thought is get them upthere, get them experience, get
them going.
And developing people overyears takes a lot of time, a lot
(20:08):
of frustration.
There are setbacks, people riseand fall, learn and grow and
are humbled and all the rest ofit.
And slow discipleship is notflashy, it's not always fun, and
that's where people can say, oh, let's skip all that, this
person's talented and we canjust hand them a mic.
(20:28):
And so people generally meanwell, at least sometimes in my
opinion.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
What do y'all think should be the okay?
So let's say, ideally a pastorgoes from working at a church
not being the lead pastor, justworking at a church, maybe in
the form of youth ministry, likeyou do, or in the form of, like
some other service at thechurch.
How long should the averageperson be working in some of
those lower forms occasionallypreaching, doing stuff like that
(20:55):
before they take on a leadposition?
Speaker 4 (20:57):
I feel like that's a God question.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
I'm not saying it's always the same for every person
, but like what would be theminimum where you're like it
would be very.
It would have to be a veryweird or a very special
situation where I would say, ifit's less than this, then like
that person, that has to be justextremely gifted by God.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
And even then I don't think the question has a
minimum.
I think people grow spirituallyin different areas, become more
spiritually mature in certainareas, and it takes a certain
amount of time for differentpeople.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
If I had to put a minimum on it, though.
How long did Paul when Paulbecame a Christian?
How long was he disciple foruntil he started?
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Was it three years?
So there's.
I would say there were a fewyears give or take.
Speaker 4 (21:39):
I would say three to five If you had to put a minimum
on it, I think three to five.
Simply because, like for me,when Nate started mentoring me,
I didn't become a youth pastoruntil I'm not even a youth
pastor, just a youth leader.
I didn't become that untilprobably third year, fourth year
(22:00):
.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Give or take.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
But in those first two years though, I wasn't like
he wasn't like training me forthat, we were just training on
how to serve the church, andthrough all that you learn what
your gifts and what yourcallings are.
So my gift and my calling justhappen to be youth ministry
right now, and you know it cangrow from wherever that I might
be a youth minister until I die,and that'd be a okay with me.
(22:22):
I know that I'm not upset aboutthat.
Any way that I can serve thekingdom is how I'll serve the
kingdom.
But if you're going to put aminimum on it I think three to
five years you just, you justget so much knowledge.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
What do you think?
Would you be like Justin, bewishy-washy, like, oh well, we
can just put him up therebecause he's cool and funny, or
would you say no, that's exactly, yes, what Justin was saying.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
I think for me it needs to be a long enough time
to where the congregation, thelocal church family can see
fruit, where you see there'sfaithfulness, the ups and the
downs and you live life and it'snot fun and it's not flashy
Again.
That's the big thing.
(23:03):
But is someone consistent?
Are they reliable?
Are they kind?
How do they handle trials?
And as the years go by, let'ssay you're seeing someone grow
up in the church or a churchmember, whatever you see their
faithfulness, you can say, allright, I think that person's
ready for leadership.
Broken and I'm not going toblame any one person or whatever
(23:37):
for this.
But you look at churches andwhen they need a pastor, what do
they do?
They open up the search andthey put it on Indeed or
whatever and you go and you hirea pastor.
A lot of churches have to dothat and that's fine.
But what happens is you hiresomeone who's basically a
stranger and you hope they'regood, talented, plus character
and all the rest of it.
You hope so and sometimes itdoesn't work out, whereas the
(23:59):
ideal model is watching peoplegrow up from a young age and
they're living their life andyou have an intergenerational
church and people at high school, college, young adults and all
the rest of it, and you've knownthem for years and you can
point out and you can say, hey,you would be a wonderful deacon,
(24:19):
elder pastor, and then they goout they get training, go to
seminary, whatever, and thenthey come back and serve in
their local church.
That would be the ideal model.
So you really get to know yourleaders.
But that's not what we do thesedays.
We go, we hire somebody andhope it works out.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
But, anyway, justin.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Yeah, man, I remember when I got hired.
Well, you want to talk?
Speaker 4 (24:43):
close to the microphone buddy.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
Sorry.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
We already made this episode really hard for Nate.
I've made this episode reallyhard for Nate.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
He's got like three things he's got to edit.
Thank goodness for that.
Speaker 4 (24:53):
Four things now.
Skip a D.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Keep that in.
Keep that in.
But well, now I forgot what Iwas going to say, blake.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
That's good.
It probably wasn't worthanything anyways.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
You're right, golly so mean to each other Kicking
while he's down dude.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
All right, all kicking while he's down, dude.
All right, all of the editinggoing on, but anyways.
Uh, so I think we covered a lotof ground.
Uh, common themes, how toprevent them, but things to look
for.
If you're looking for a newchurch, be wary of people who
lead the church and it's justone person, because, biblically,
(25:34):
what are we supposed to have?
Speaker 5 (25:36):
Deacons elders.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Deacons and elders and there are different terms
for stuff, but it's supposed tobe leadership there You're
telling me we're not supposed toradio satellite.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
A pastor across three campuses.
I was just thinking about that.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
No.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
But that makes so much sense.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
It makes so much money, it makes so much money,
money makes sense.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
Yeah, justin.
Well, that's one thing I wasgoing to say is make sure the
pastor talks about nothing butmoney, and especially if they
say that God asked them foradvice, you know you're at the
right place.
Speaker 5 (26:09):
And God is going to prosper you in everything that
you do.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
That's right, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
yes, name it claim always and all the time you're
going to get whatever you wantsome good, solid theology being
proclaimed by the nextgeneration and okay.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
So be wary also if you run into people who cannot
be questioned.
And for all of y'all's jokesabout me, one thing I do enjoy
is when y'all push back on stuffand ask me questions or
disagree with me.
I like that because we can workthings out.
If you are with a pastor andyou cannot question him or he
gets defensive when you say, hey, why do we do this, why do we
(26:48):
do that?
That's probably not a healthyenvironment.
And again it goes back to MarkDriscoll.
If you go and listen to theChristianity Today, rise and
Fall of Mars Hill, you can gosee all that.
But anyways, just incrediblestory, also very saddening, but
yes, you could not question.
To question him was to questionGod and that's very dangerous.
(27:11):
To question him was to questionGod and that's very dangerous.
That's so blasphemous.
But anyways, any final thoughtson the topic celebrity
Christian scandals and what wecan do about it on our end, what
things to look for Go ahead, Goahead.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
Justin.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
You raise your hand.
I was just going to say a quotefrom Mr Nathan Williams over
here, who just said that we'reallowed to question him, because
we absolutely can question him.
But to quote him, it's not thathe's never been wrong, it's
that wrong has never been him.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
That was a quote.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
That is a quote from you.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
That was a quote.
When did I say that I need theday?
Guys, if you're hearing this.
Speaker 4 (27:48):
This is a plea for help.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Please, please, help.
He trapped us in here, he'strapped us.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
He's the next Mars Triskel.
Help, we haven't eaten in threedays.
Get back to work.
I will say this A really coolthing when I was thinking about
this because I was thinkingabout the podcast topic earlier
during church is we had justfinished up Mark, chapter 4, and
it was the parable of the soils, and I really like, or I really
(28:12):
like how, like when you see thescripture really come to life,
in the sense of you see it playout in real life, and so I was
thinking about the part whereyou know it's like the, it's the
seed that is dropped and itsprings up, but then like thorns
and thorns choke it out.
That's kind of like what you seewith the celebrity pastors is
that kind of soil beingdemonstrated, and you know it is
(28:33):
heartbreaking.
But at the same time, this islike why Jesus told us this
parable, and it's the oneparable he told us like if you
don't understand it, you won'tunderstand any of the other
parables.
So it's really cool to like seeit work through it.
Not cool as in like it's coolwhat happened to him.
But the truth of the word, thetruth of the word being on full
display and knowing like for us,I like to think we're in here,
(28:54):
we're all good soil, you know,sometimes we can be different
soil, but most of the time weare good soil Just to see that
address it, but then also havethe humility to say, hey, we can
fix this.
We don't have to like justdestroy somebody's life over it.
Yeah, spencer.
Speaker 5 (29:08):
I think it's easy to get caught up in one person or
one personality, even if theyare teaching correct theology,
but I love you so much.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
I appreciate that.
Speaker 5 (29:20):
But it's so easy to do that, and we just have to
catch ourselves and remindourselves that our faith is
truly in Christ and in the wordof God and in what the church
teaches and that's not just oneperson, that's a whole group,
and so if your whole faithleverages on one person's
(29:42):
teachings or one person's moralfailings, then you're just
you're going to have this life.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
So what Spencer said hits the nail on the head Hold
to the word, be active in yourlocal church, support your local
pastor in a healthy way and yes, Unhealthy.
Speaker 4 (30:05):
You can't make me All right.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
That's accurate, spencer.
Since you have just rejoined us, I'm going to give you the
honor of sending us off for thisepisode.
How would you like to finishthe episode?
Speaker 2 (30:21):
I'd say, let's pray I like it chooses wholesome I was
just gonna crunch a chip
Speaker 1 (30:28):
and his wholesomeness .
All right, spencer.
Speaker 5 (30:30):
Pray for us all right dear, be with us as we go
throughout this week.
Let us be bright lights for youin this dark world and remind
us each and every day where ourhope is, where it lies, in the
truth of your word and in theglory and grace of your son
Jesus Christ.
In your name I pray.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Amen.
Speaker 5 (30:45):
Thank you.
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