October 14, 2024 • 38 mins
Nate Williams and the Dangerous Life Team discuss pacifism. Should Christians avoid fighting and wars? What about self-defense?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (00:01):
So she was taking my picture at the end of the event
and she kept telling me hey, youneed to open your eyes, look
closed.
I said, ma'am, I'm Asian.
At the end yeah, she didn't sayanything after that.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
That's too good To be fair I would never have guessed
you were.
Asian, that's true.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Yeah, I really wouldn't have.
Sometimes I think you're jokingabout it.
I honestly just figured it out.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Is my heritage a joke to you, Mackenzie.
Speaker 4 (00:27):
It is to me, so don't worry, mackenzie.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I got your back.
Welcome to the Dangerous FaithPodcast, nate Williams here, and
we have the Dangerous Life teamwith me Zeke, justin Isaac and
Mackenzie and little John Isaacover there as well.
No Archie today, no mascot, butwe will make it through.
I do believe.
Today we're going to talk aboutpacifism and I'm going to kind
(01:03):
of lay the groundwork.
Pacifism, not fighting in wars.
Some people extend it toself-defense, not defending
yourself or your family forvarious reasons.
So generally religious reasons,I guess, I would say.
And you look at the NewTestament, it seems like there
is some scriptural support forpacifism.
(01:24):
It seems like there is somescriptural support for pacifism.
You see, things like turn theother cheek, love your neighbor,
you know, bless, do not curse.
And what does Jesus say aboutdoves and serpents Be wise as
serpents, harmless as doves, andso on and so forth.
And then ultimately Jesus diedon the cross for our sins.
That core Christian doctrine.
(01:45):
So it seems like pacifism atfirst has a lot going for it
Scriptural support and Christiandoctrine and theology.
So just opening up to y'allpacifism overall thoughts.
Would you subscribe to it?
Does it sound good to you?
Or just what do we think aboutpacifism overall thoughts.
(02:05):
Would you subscribe to it?
Does it sound good to you?
Or just what do we think aboutpacifism?
Anyone?
Don't everyone jump forward inhaste to answer Justin?
Speaker 4 (02:19):
So, as a personal, my personal belief, I would call
myself a pacifist Okay, but Idon't know.
I feel like it's how God callsyou.
For example, I believe Godcalls some people to be soldiers
who serve your country, servehim, and I would never shame
(02:39):
somebody for doing that.
That's a very honorable thingand I don't think what they're
doing is wrong.
I just say go by yourconviction.
I know I couldn't do somethinglike that myself and I strive to
be a pacifist and bring peace.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
So you're saying more personal pacifism.
You're not calling others tolive that way, but you're just
saying for you, yes.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Okay, can we?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
define pacifism, I guess in general, you're not
fighting in wars, not going toengage in certain occupations
like being a soldier.
Sometimes it also extends topersonal life, so you will not
use self-defense, you will notharm others to protect yourself
or maybe your family.
People will go to differentlengths, but just things like
(03:24):
that, yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
And they even you know they named a whole ocean
after it the Pacific Ocean.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yes, that's exactly right, Crushed it.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
So, Justin, I've got some quick.
So, Justin, I've got a questionfor you.
Are you opposed to it?
How far would you go with that?
Like, if you saw someone elsebeing harmed on the street,
would you do something to stopit?
Where do you draw the line?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Because you might have to enact harm on a person,
to protect that other person.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
I guess I would also say okay in defense of someone
else yes.
Kind of a way it's personalthings I deal with myself.
I don't know if I could do itfor myself, but doing it for
others I could.
But I don't see anything wrongwith it if you're defending
somebody.
I guess I don't know.
(04:16):
I guess overall I am more ispacifistic a word.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Pacificity?
I have no idea.
I have no idea.
Speaker 5 (04:26):
isaac thoughts so if you were drafted into the army
and your squad was getting firedon right and you saw the person
who was shooting at you, wouldyou shoot them?
Speaker 4 (04:37):
well, first off, here's what I would say I'm
colorblind and I have adhd, so Icouldn't be in the military,
even if I was drafted, socheckmate atheists.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
How pathetic.
What if they drafted you anyway?
We're so desperate at thispoint that they're willing to
take you too.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
So here's what I do, right?
I'm up front, right, and thenBlake Tietro is right there
beside me and I use him as ameat shield, and then I don't
kill anybody, I understand, and?
Speaker 2 (05:05):
I use him as a meat shield and then I don't kill
anybody.
I understand, but we can keepasking those questions to Justin
.
Sure, it's a lot of fun.
I do want our overall thoughtson pacifism as well.
Speaker 5 (05:22):
So, isaac, where do you want to go with that?
I don't.
I think it's.
I wouldn't say you have to be apacifist.
I think as Christians we'recalled to be more loving and
take more hurt onto ourselves,but not throw away everything.
And don't protect your family,don't protect yourself, all that
(05:42):
stuff or other people, or don'tfight in wars wars because you
know you may have to fight evil.
If nobody would have foughtHitler, you know, something
could happen, you know.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Sure, I guess a pacifist might say something
along the lines of isn't thattaking matters into our own
hands instead of trusting God tochange hearts?
Speaker 5 (06:04):
What about when the Israelites invaded all the
Canaanites, all them?
And God was like kill them all,because I'm using you to save
these people, because they weredoing wrong to judge these
people.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
True, and that is a good point.
Israelites and Canaan and allthat, I think again just playing
.
We've got to come up with adifferent word.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
Nathan's advocate.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Nathan's advocate being me.
In other words, they might saywell, that was Old Testament
times.
What about New Testament, withthe church and the Sermon on the
Mount?
Can you be a Christian?
Look at someone across abattlefield end their life while
still obeying the Sermon on theMount?
(06:48):
Yes, Isaac says yes.
How?
Speaker 5 (06:56):
Because you are fighting for your country to
fight evil.
You're not fighting that oneperson.
It's not like you're sent outto fight evil.
You're not fighting that oneperson.
It's not like you're sent outto fight this one person.
You're fighting a movement ofevil.
Like in World War II, peoplewere getting drafted and people
were going to war to fight thisevil that was coming from these
(07:17):
other countries.
To push it back.
Because I feel like, as humansand as God's representatives on
earth, we are to fight evil.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
So you would take the view of it's not like a
personal thing, it's.
You are almost on behalf ofyour government the way like an
executioner, you're notmurdering the prisoner, you are
acting on behalf of the state asyou perform that action.
That's very interesting, justinso for me personally.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
Again, I go with kind of what Isaac said about that.
God called those people to bethe judgment.
Be God's judgment there.
I don't know Me personally.
I don't feel good about any ofthat.
I feel like if you take a life,that doesn't seem right to me,
(08:13):
it's the same way I feel veryiffy about the death penalty
because you're taking what'sGod's deal into your own hands.
That's how I feel about it.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Now would that extend to, let's say, a police officer
responding to a crime, let'ssay a murderer or a rapist, and
so if they're called to do it,they might have to take a life
in response to it?
Speaker 4 (08:39):
I think that the police officer's goal first of
all is not just to immediatelygo in there and kill somebody
they want to try to bring themin, and I'm all for that.
They need to be brought tojustice.
Sometimes there's escalationyes.
And if, sometimes, if a scene,if it can't be helped, like if
the police officer's defendinghimself or defending someone
else, that's in defense ofsomebody, but that's not like I
(09:02):
don't know, it's a weird, weirdline.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
I was going to ask do you think there's a difference
between killing and murder, ordo you think all like killing
someone is murder?
Or do you think there's likejustified killing like in war?
Or does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
What I'm trying to say?
Is there a difference betweenkilling and murder?
Speaker 4 (09:22):
There absolutely is.
I agree.
I don't know if.
I don't know if war is theright answer.
I don't think a lot of warsfought nowadays are for the
right reasons.
For example, when we gotinvolved in World War II, it was
in defense of these people whowere being persecuted horribly.
There are plenty of examples ofwars that the United States
(09:42):
have gone to.
That's just about money, andthat's terrible.
So many people died over amoney dispute.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Justin, the United States of America has never made
any mistakes.
Yeah, go on, zeke.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
So I knew there was a verse I was thinking of and I
think this is going to be apoint against Justin, as
everything seems to be, againstJustin, as everything seems to
be.
But so what?
And not just Justin, but okay.
So I struggle with this too, of, like you know, you do have the
Sermon on the Mount that saysturn the other cheek.
You have Jesus who, even whenhe was in the garden and Peter
(10:17):
cut off a guy's ear, he tellsPeter to put down a sword and he
heals the guy's ear.
So Jesus's life, it would seemhe would be.
We don't ever get him, we don'tever have him saying like, hey,
go fight these people.
We don't have examples ofChrist going out and doing these
actions, but we do have theApostle Paul in Romans 13, where
(10:39):
he talks about government, andthis kind of goes back to what
we're talking about.
It's like is there a situationwhere a government can send out
people to fight evil?
I'll just read what he said.
He said in verse 4.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Romans 13.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Yeah, romans 13, verse 4.
For he is talking about thegovernment, or the rulers in
their times.
Our version would be thegovernment, for he is God's
servant for your good, but ifyou do wrong, be afraid, for he
does not bear the sword in vain,for he is the servant of God.
And obviously that's where Iwould start the debate on okay,
(11:16):
well, what does it mean to carryout God's wrath?
Well, hopefully, most of thetime, that doesn't involve
killing.
However, I think, like Isaacwas saying before, there's
circumstances where it comes upwhere that is your last option.
You don't have a choice at thispoint.
And that goes back to James,where he says true religion is
to take care of the widow andthe orphan.
(11:37):
Well, in their time I mean evennow it's still hard for them,
but especially in their timethey were some of the most
helpless people, in the senselike they couldn't get ahead and
help themselves.
So if people were abusing them,it may come down to where you
have to do something you don'twant to have to do to take care
of them for their safety andtheir well-being.
I think the same goes back towhat you said, world War II.
(11:59):
We have obvious objective evilforces trying to take over the
world obvious objective evilforces trying to take over the
world and I don't think it was—Ithink the government did the
right thing.
Our government and others whowent against them say, hey,
we're going to put an end tothis evil as a part of God's
wrath on them.
That doesn't mean God came downand said, hey, I need you to do
this.
We just looked at it and said,hey, that's evil, we're going to
do something about it.
(12:19):
So what happens to the Sermonon the Mount then?
I think the Sermon on the Mountis more towards the individual
life.
So I would agree more withJustin on this one of like it
would be easy for me, I agree,it's easy for me to see, hey,
someone's being hurt and harmed,I'm going to go help them,
whereas if it's me, I'm going tobe less likely to do something
(12:43):
about it.
And obviously there's certainsituations, like if someone
comes up to my family or, youknow, someone points a gun at me
, I'm going to do what I can toget out of that situation.
But ultimately, like if it'sjust someone being abusive or
you know, jesus never puts us ina situation where or not.
Jesus never mentions asituation where someone's
literally trying to kill us.
However, he does say there aregoing to be people that try to
(13:06):
persecute us and that we're totrust in God and we're to pray
for them.
But I would trust God in thatsituation.
I'm not opposed to self-defense, but I'm going to be more
lenient towards trusting God andtrying my best to pray for that
person and, as a very, verylast resort, I would lean
towards that.
It would have to be a veryextreme circumstance but, to be
fair, I don't can't think of atime where I've been put in that
(13:27):
situation, so it's not a commonthing for my everyday life.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Now, Isaac, before we started recording, you
mentioned a movie with AndrewGarfield that I thought was
really interesting.
Can you tell us a little bitabout that movie?
Speaker 5 (13:45):
So this kid?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
when he was young it's called Hacksaw Ridge.
Speaker 5 (13:49):
Everybody who's listening probably knows of it.
Hurt, his brother almost killedhim when he was young and so
after that he decided to becomea pacifist or whatever, to never
hurt anybody again.
And then he gets drafted orwants to go into the army or
something like that and uh goesthrough it and when they tell
him he's got to shoot people,he's like I'm not going to take
(14:10):
a gun, I'm just going to go anddo my thing and be like a medic
or something.
So he does and he saves a lotof people.
Um, that's basically the gistof the of the movie what was
your, you just want to make withthat?
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Well in a certain direction.
There are people who their wayof solving the whole Romans, 13
Matthew, chapter 5 possibledilemma not saying it is, but it
could possibly be two passagesof scripture against one another
.
Is they say all right, I'm goingto go that route.
(14:43):
I'm never going to get into anysort of political office.
I'm going to be a conscientiousobjector when it comes to war.
I'm not going to be a policeofficer, and so that way, if I
avoid those positions, I canlive a pacifistic life, and so
(15:04):
that's one way they try toresolve that.
Speaker 5 (15:13):
But if you go about your life that way, like one
person here or there can do that, but if you go about your life
that way, all these people whoare in authority, all these
people who are making thesedecisions, do not have Christian
values.
If no Christian is in thesepositions, then we're all just
sitting on the sideline overhere.
And you know, if everybody'sgoing to war and we're just
sitting over here, they're goingto be like why are you not
trying to fight this evil?
And the same with governmentand all that stuff is like oh,
(15:33):
all these things are evil, let'screate policies to fight it,
like abortion and stuff.
But if all the Christians arelike no, we can't be government
officials, we're just going tosit on the side, you're really,
I think you're just not doinganything.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
So, okay, I think, maybe, okay, I thought of
another example from Jesus wherehe actually gives a pretty
graphic description of how.
Now, obviously he doesn't tellus to do this, but I think this
is the government could use thisas a sense of this would be
justified.
You possibly could justifygovernment's punishment of those
who harm children.
(16:08):
When?
What did Jesus say?
Whenever he said uh, anyone whoharms a child deserves what.
It would be better for them tobe tied to the millstone and
drowned right.
Yeah, it would be better forthem to be killed than to harm a
child.
So I think Jesus took seriouslylike certain crimes and I'm not
saying that's the verse, butI'm saying that's a verse that
people could use to say there'scertain crimes that go too far
(16:30):
and people have lost their rightto life.
And I think that's in themodern era.
We've kind of forgotten thatlike our life is like it's not
something that we deserve, it'ssomething that we're given like
and it can be taken away in aninstant.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Yeah, true, yeah, those are.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
You want to say something.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Those are all good thoughts and people have
wrestled with it.
On one end you have pacifism,and then on the other end you
have what's called just wartheory, where it is okay to
fight as long as it's a lastresort and other options have
been exhausted.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
Maybe that would be.
I think that may be more how Iwould.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Yeah, because you don't seem like you're just.
Oh, there's never a situation,it's all about don't ever like.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
There are certain reasons, like you have to defend
yourself or defend others.
And again, I never, would ever,trash on like a soldier for
doing what they do.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Because what they do is admirable.
So you're going to withdrawyour application to Westboro
Baptist.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
I guess I'll have to.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Okay, all right, I'm glad this episode is doing good
work ladies and gentlemen.
All right, so yeah, justdifferent things there that you
could walk through.
I think the tricky thing isgoing is sometimes we don't even
apply the Sermon on the Mountin the situations that we can.
(18:11):
So we're worried, or at least Iam.
I know, in my thought process Ithink about all the exceptions
and all the extremes.
But going back to Jesus's words, most of the time, by
definition we're not in anexception, we're not in an
extreme.
So the Sermon on the Mount, youcan say, yeah, it doesn't apply
(18:32):
to everything, but do you useit in your day-to-day life for
the normal situations?
Isaac?
Speaker 5 (18:39):
I would agree with you on that and, like the Bible
says, to be peacemakers Ineveryday life.
Most of the time we're notfighting somebody who's doing
wrong, right, so we can turn theother cheek.
We can forgive, we can do allthese things.
We can still forgive someonewho does something wrong.
But I think where pacifism andthat would disagree is they're
like never, never do anythingabout it, whereas in your daily
(19:03):
life, as a personal Christian,everybody needs to follow the
Sermon on the Mount.
You know and be a peacemaker inlife and try to live peacefully
with everybody.
But if something happens or ifyou're put in that situation
like a police officer orsomething, you need to do your
duty as a servant of thecommunity.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Yeah, that's a good point.
I mean Paul brought that up too.
Was it Philippians?
I forget, but somewhere you canGoogle.
He said if at all possible,live peaceably with others.
So that assumes that there'sgoing to be certain situations
where people aren't willing tolive peaceably with you, and
there's been those in history.
Like, if you look back at Iguess this is on my mind just
(19:42):
because of everything that'sbeen going on in the world
lately but like, if you lookback to I think it was like the
90s, maybe it was sooner, butwhenever there were certain
sects of Islam taking overcertain countries that
Christians were in, there was athing where they could.
If they didn't convert to Islam, they would kill them and all
(20:03):
they had to do was say hey, youknow, I believe in Muhammad,
yada, yada, yada.
So there's going to be certainsituations where there's certain
people and it may not even bereligious people, it could be
anybody that are going to say no, we don't.
Peace isn't an option.
Either you convert or you die,and if that's the case, like you
can't, that's not an option,for peace is what I'm trying to
get at.
So there's going to besituations where that's not the
case.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Yeah, I just thought of something as y'all were
talking about that.
But the Bible does say that wedon't fight with flesh and blood
.
I think the difference is weknow how sacred life is and how
each and every person carries somuch worth and they're made in
the image of God.
But when it comes to wars and,like you said, where we're
(20:45):
fighting against evil, it's notnecessarily towards that person,
even if they are in agreementwith it.
It's more like, like you said,like the evil forces that we're
fighting against, not thatperson.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
Yeah, I think I heard a good point on this where
there was a guy whose dad servedin.
I want to say it was World War I, it was one or two, I can't
remember the guy who.
I guess it was probably one,because the guy who was saying
it was kind of old himself andhe asked his dad one time he's
(21:24):
like you know what was it like?
Like, uh, you know, fighting inthe war against those other guys
, and I think that his take onit was probably the attitude
that people should have, becauseit would probably be easy to be
scarred from it and just thinkof them as like a, not a human
like you're saying, like theyare humans on the other side of
every war and some are misled onthe wrong ideology.
But his dad said he's like allI could think about is that
there's going to be some guysgoing home today or some guys
who will never, whose wives andkids will never get to see them
(21:46):
again.
And I mean they kind of hit thepoint like there's, these
aren't just ideologies, butthese are people who are being
deceived about these evil thingsand obviously they are to blame
for their own beliefs, but atthe same time, like we shouldn't
be so hard-hearted towards themto forget that they were made
in the image of god, even ifthey are deceived.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Yeah and that reminds me of some civil war stories
you'd read about where, if thetwo sides knew there was going
to be a battle the next day,like the night before you know,
they would kind of get togetherin parties along the war line,
just wherever the camps weresituated, and they would trade
(22:30):
whatever items, objects, youknow, barter, there would be
music and you know, maybe somedrinking.
We have Baptists present, sothey were drinking ginger ale
and Sprite.
Baptists present, so they weredrinking ginger ale and Sprite.
You know anyways, but just theyrecognize.
Hey, tomorrow I'm going to haveto shoot at you and we might
(22:51):
have to do some awful things,but tonight we can recognize
that these were sons, you knowjust teenage kids and young men,
and sometimes older men as well, obviously.
And there's a human side to waras well, so you can't forget
that too.
And so just war is ugly, nomatter where you fall on all
that.
Speaker 5 (23:09):
Isaac I agree with everything I've said so far.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Everything you've said so far, hold on.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Did the devil's advocate?
Speaker 5 (23:18):
make you change your mind.
No, no, no.
So in In a situation whereChristians were being persecuted
when Paul was alive, right,they weren't fighting back.
Does that make sense, mm-hmm?
So why?
I get they were fighting backbecause they were persecuting
(23:41):
Christians and all that stuff,but if they were killing people,
why wouldn't they fight back?
Speaker 2 (23:50):
So a few things.
One, the pacifist, might saybecause they're not supposed to.
So there's the faith side Don'tdo it because you're not
supposed to fight back, Flee orhandle the persecution which was
at the very beginning of theChristian church.
(24:11):
Their numbers were so tiny thatany resistance against the
Roman Empire would have beenfutile.
So if you're an ant, yeah, youmight not like the elephant, but
you can't do a whole lot to theelephant.
And so there's a practicalresponse of they're not going to
think to fight because they'reso few in number.
Like we read the New Testament,the early church, like Acts, oh
(24:35):
, the church is growing.
And that's true they were, butoverall, compared to the Roman
Empire, they were e little,little bitty, whatever English
groups of people that couldn'thave done much to the empire
empire.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Not only that, but I'm just thinking you can tell
me if this is wrong butpractically like today, while,
yes, it would probably be justas hard for us to fight back
against all of the us military,we would probably be better off,
like, fighting individualbattles, because, like, and for
better, for worse, guns exist.
So, like, you don't have to belike a trained soldier to be
(25:08):
good at fighting.
Like all you gotta do is beable to pull a trigger, versus
then, like, even if they wantedto fight back, then, like you've
got trained soldiers thatyou're, you would have to
somehow defeat all of them byyourself.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
And so there's a practical answer that some
people might go with.
Yeah, that's a good point, zeke.
We have guns now, which makesit a little bit easier, but then
the US military has amazingtechnological capabilities, a
lot of which they don't tell thepublic about.
But, yes, that is true.
And so just some answers there.
Allegedly, allegedly, don'thurt me, and so, anyways, those
(25:42):
might be a couple answers.
Do either of those soundreasonable to you?
Either the pacifistic one orthe practicality one?
Yeah, the practicality one.
Speaker 5 (25:52):
Yeah, the practicality one kind of sounds.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
but it's like they don't have stories for every
situation.
Speaker 5 (26:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
So we really don't know.
Yeah, but obviously if they did, it wasn't big enough to matter
.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
It's very different than in Europe and America today
.
We're Christians, number in themany millions.
Now, all of a sudden, ifsomeone wants to attack us
because of our religion, we havefamilies and communities and
it's like now.
If we wanted to fight now, itwould actually.
We'd actually be able toprotect ourselves.
Speaker 5 (26:27):
But would we?
But would we?
Should we?
Should we If someone's Greatquestion, if someone?
Speaker 3 (26:32):
is.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
That is yes.
Speaker 5 (26:34):
If someone is attacking our faith, should we
fight back.
Maybe.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Define attacking our faith.
Speaker 5 (26:41):
Persecuting Christians and killing them just
because they're Christians.
Define persecution Killing themjust because they're Christians
.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
What is a?
Speaker 5 (26:47):
woman, a female, an adult female and maybe not.
But so what I'm thinking islike maybe they didn't fight
back because they were justpersecuting them.
Does that make sense?
And so they were probably likeJesus said, you know, they're
(27:08):
not of this world, they're notgoing to fight Like they were
given their life, like Jesus was.
But maybe I could see how acould see how pacifists would
see that.
But then on the other end oflike the Hitler debate, where I
could see where that's okay todefy him, you know, because of
evil going on in the whole world, in there, Dietrich Bonhoeffer
thought so killing people triedto kill Hitler yeah yeah, I
(27:29):
think I kind of agree with whatyou're saying.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Like if it's an attack on me where they say you
either deny, we say you knowthat everyone is made in the
(27:52):
image of God, like with the Jews, then it is our responsibility
to put it into that like at allpossible, if we can.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
So good points, mackenzie, isaac, someone breaks
into your home and they sayIsaac, I want all your money
because that's a secular reason,are you saying oh, I can, I can
stop this person.
But if the robber breaks intoyour home and says I'm going to
beat you up because you're aChristian, you're at that point
(28:22):
You're like well, I guess Ican't defend myself, I guess OK
so so you would differentiatebetween secular reasons and
specifically for your faith.
Speaker 5 (28:33):
I would say moral and like we are okay with defense,
right, we're all okay withdefense and helping other people
, and y'all said if you sawsomeone on the street get
attacked, you would help them,right, and I agree that is okay.
But I think the Christiansdidn't fight back because they
(28:53):
were attacking them for beingchristians.
They were like I mean, whyfight back?
Speaker 4 (28:58):
maybe it's just the symbolism that comes from being
a martyr in that way yeah, it'sjust like the power behind that.
Speaker 5 (29:05):
They were attacking them for their faith.
So, so why they were like thisis glorious that God would
choose us to be persecuted, butyou do need to defend the weak
and the needy and take care ofthe poor and the orphan.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Yeah, I think you make a good point of it.
It does come to will thisglorify God too, like if we see
someone getting hurt and we gohelp them, then what?
If they ask, why did you helpme?
And you say, well, because Ibelieve all, all life has
purpose and all life is made inthe image of God, then that
that's a way you can witness tothem.
(29:42):
But in the same sense, like yousaid, if it is a situation
where you don't defend yourselfand it can also bring glory to
God, then then that's all thatmatters.
I think both situations can, ifthat makes sense.
It's just depending on what itis.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
The point we keep circling around?
Is it really just depends on?
the situation and both canequally be good in the sense of,
on a personal level, of if I'mbeing persecuted, like Mackenzie
was saying, like I think shewas echoing Paul, when Paul's
like death, where is your sting?
Like we shouldn't be afraid ofdeath, like I should.
(30:18):
I know it's still going to, butin reality it really shouldn't
bother us because we've gotimmense things waiting for us on
the other side.
But at the same time, likewhile God has us here and he has
a plan for us being here, howcan we best live out that plan?
While he keeps us alive?
Because if God wants us dead,he'll use whatever means he
needs to to kill us.
Or if he wants us alive, he'lluse whatever means he needs to
(30:41):
to keep us alive.
I think of what was his name,mari Mar, is that the?
He was the Orthodox preacherwho was almost shot during
service.
Speaker 4 (30:49):
Yeah, yeah, I know what you're talking about.
There's countless other yeah,and the dude stabbed him too.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
Yeah, he ended up stabbing him in the eye, but I
think someone tried.
It was either him or someoneelse.
Someone tried to shoot him andthe gun just kept jamming and
it's like if God wants him here,god will keep him here Do you
Something else about that?
Speaker 4 (31:05):
that was incredible and this I know it's not
technically on topic, but justspeak on that.
What he said, the second thathe got up from being stabbed, is
everybody was about to go getthat man and that guy went no,
no, no, no, no, don't kill him,pray for him, pray for him,
reign to justice, but pray forhim.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
It's amazing, and I think that's a perfect example
of there are some people whowould go too far and jump to the
killing right away, and when Isay last resort, I really I
think that's a perfect exampleof last resort.
Like it wasn't to the pointwhere he had to kill him, he
said I'm safe.
Now we've got him, uh, detained.
Let's pray for him.
Let's, let's look out for thisguy pacifists believe you can't
(31:45):
hurt anybody, right it's, thereare levels, but some would go
like no matter what okay.
Speaker 5 (31:51):
So I would say I would say it's okay to hurt to
protect, but, like y'all said,killing last resort, like if
somebody came to my house Iwouldn't immediately shoot them
in the head you know, I'dprobably try to wound them and
yeah, but not saying I'm a greatrunning after you or something.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Yeah, yeah, you would .
Just I would fight that youdon't kill them, but you'd hope
that you wound them, yeah.
Speaker 5 (32:12):
But I don't remember what else I was going to say.
Oh yeah, the Christians were.
Do you think it was differentbecause the Christians were
being persecuted by thegovernment instead of a random
your neighbor over here?
Speaker 3 (32:26):
Yeah, I think that kind of goes back to what he was
saying of like, in a sense, ifit's the government attacking
you, you're an ant to anelephant like.
You can try and fight back allyou want, but it's really not
gonna do much so I mean, I don'tknow, that's just practical, I
think of all right, good, goodthoughts, lots of things to
consider.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Is it?
Am I fighting for country,family myself?
What are the motivations forthe attack?
Also, is it the government oris it like just some random
stranger off the streetattacking me?
Speaker 1 (32:58):
What is my?
Speaker 2 (32:59):
heart.
What is my reason for being inthe fight or not fighting?
Lots of good stuff to thinkthrough and consider.
I think pacifists they do havesome scriptural support, no
matter where you land on theconversation.
And then there's just wartheory and other things to
consider.
Good conversation.
Any other thoughts before wewrap up on the topic, anything
(33:24):
y'all want to share?
Are you a pacifist?
Speaker 3 (33:26):
No, what's your views , Mr Devil's Advocate.
Speaker 5 (33:31):
Mr Advocate for the Devil.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
So, zeke, what I've?
Obviously, justin, I've missedyou being on the show and I'm
glad whenever you can make it,but typically when you're not in
one of the episodes, nobodyasks me for my opinion, and I
really like that, so I can justfacilitate the conversation.
(33:54):
Unfortunately, zeke picked upyour mantle in this episode and
asked me Amen, Amen brother.
My position on it is God createdthe world to function a certain
way.
That's called natural law.
So if you want society toflourish, you need peace, you
need freedom, you need thegovernment to be doing its job.
(34:18):
Zeke read about that in Romans13.
That's kind of the foundationalverse for government.
Its responsibility is to punishevil and reward good, and part
of that means the use of forceif necessary.
If the government does not useforce, if it does not forcefully
help a society to be peaceful,it's not doing its job.
(34:38):
So when it comes to violence ingeneral, it is okay to use
violence to enforce natural law.
So, for example, a murderer isbreaking one of those laws Don't
murder.
Because society cannot flourishif people murder.
And so the government can useforce to enforce it Anyways.
(35:02):
So with war, same thing thegovernment's responsible for
taking care of its citizens,leading to peace.
Paul talks about that in 1Timothy, chapter 2, I believe
Pray for kings and rulers sothat there may be peace in the
land, so that the gospel mayspread.
Once the government isenforcing natural law those are
the laws by which God made theworld then the church is based
(35:25):
upon that.
The church can then do its job,which is, with freedom, to
share the gospel and to love andserve, be a light, be, salt,
all the rest of it.
So it's kind of like a twopronged approach to the world
government and then governmentdoes its job and the church
Anyways, all that's to say inyour personal life, be peaceful.
(35:48):
Life be peaceful.
However, there may come a timeand a place where, let's say,
with war, you have peopleinvading looking to do great
harm.
It's okay to pick up armsbecause evildoers are violating
the way God made the world tofunction and you can be a force
for good to set it right.
That does not mean you'rekilling on behalf of your
(36:09):
religion.
You are never.
It is never acceptable toconvert or die.
Put people into that choice bea christian or I'm going to kill
you.
We are never allowed to do that.
Um, all war is really supposedto be defensive in on behalf of
others.
So anyway, sorry for the, sorryfor the three minute spiel
(36:30):
there, but but just on, my forceis okay, but never for your
faith reasons to make people bea Christian.
Anyways, now that that diatribeis over, any other thoughts,
comments, questions on the issue?
Speaker 5 (36:47):
Isaac, the Israelites would have fought when someone
tried to invade them, right.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (36:53):
That's okay.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
They were a theocracy .
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Yeah, and so, isaac, we've never had you finish the
show before.
Do you want to lead us home?
He shakes his head.
No, I know Justin's ready, buthold on, justin.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
Zeke no, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Zeke Okay, all right, justin, take us home.
Speaker 4 (37:18):
What is it Blake typically sings?
Speaker 5 (37:21):
Sometimes he sings Creed.
Speaker 4 (37:24):
Oh yeah, that's what we got to do.
Love you, buddy, thank you.
So she was taking my picture at the end of the event
and she kept telling me hey, youneed to open your eyes, look
closed.
I said, ma'am, I'm Asian.
At the end yeah, she didn't sayanything after that.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
That's too good To be fair I would never have guessed
you were.
Asian, that's true.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Yeah, I really wouldn't have.
Sometimes I think you're jokingabout it.
I honestly just figured it out.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Is my heritage a joke to you, Mackenzie.
Speaker 4 (00:27):
It is to me, so don't worry, mackenzie.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I got your back.
Welcome to the Dangerous FaithPodcast, nate Williams here, and
we have the Dangerous Life teamwith me Zeke, justin Isaac and
Mackenzie and little John Isaacover there as well.
No Archie today, no mascot, butwe will make it through.
I do believe.
Today we're going to talk aboutpacifism and I'm going to kind
(01:03):
of lay the groundwork.
Pacifism, not fighting in wars.
Some people extend it toself-defense, not defending
yourself or your family forvarious reasons.
So generally religious reasons,I guess, I would say.
And you look at the NewTestament, it seems like there
is some scriptural support forpacifism.
(01:24):
It seems like there is somescriptural support for pacifism.
You see, things like turn theother cheek, love your neighbor,
you know, bless, do not curse.
And what does Jesus say aboutdoves and serpents Be wise as
serpents, harmless as doves, andso on and so forth.
And then ultimately Jesus diedon the cross for our sins.
That core Christian doctrine.
(01:45):
So it seems like pacifism atfirst has a lot going for it
Scriptural support and Christiandoctrine and theology.
So just opening up to y'allpacifism overall thoughts.
Would you subscribe to it?
Does it sound good to you?
Or just what do we think aboutpacifism overall thoughts.
(02:05):
Would you subscribe to it?
Does it sound good to you?
Or just what do we think aboutpacifism?
Anyone?
Don't everyone jump forward inhaste to answer Justin?
Speaker 4 (02:19):
So, as a personal, my personal belief, I would call
myself a pacifist Okay, but Idon't know.
I feel like it's how God callsyou.
For example, I believe Godcalls some people to be soldiers
who serve your country, servehim, and I would never shame
(02:39):
somebody for doing that.
That's a very honorable thingand I don't think what they're
doing is wrong.
I just say go by yourconviction.
I know I couldn't do somethinglike that myself and I strive to
be a pacifist and bring peace.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
So you're saying more personal pacifism.
You're not calling others tolive that way, but you're just
saying for you, yes.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Okay, can we?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
define pacifism, I guess in general, you're not
fighting in wars, not going toengage in certain occupations
like being a soldier.
Sometimes it also extends topersonal life, so you will not
use self-defense, you will notharm others to protect yourself
or maybe your family.
People will go to differentlengths, but just things like
(03:24):
that, yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
And they even you know they named a whole ocean
after it the Pacific Ocean.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yes, that's exactly right, Crushed it.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
So, Justin, I've got some quick.
So, Justin, I've got a questionfor you.
Are you opposed to it?
How far would you go with that?
Like, if you saw someone elsebeing harmed on the street,
would you do something to stopit?
Where do you draw the line?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Because you might have to enact harm on a person,
to protect that other person.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
I guess I would also say okay in defense of someone
else yes.
Kind of a way it's personalthings I deal with myself.
I don't know if I could do itfor myself, but doing it for
others I could.
But I don't see anything wrongwith it if you're defending
somebody.
I guess I don't know.
(04:16):
I guess overall I am more ispacifistic a word.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Pacificity?
I have no idea.
I have no idea.
Speaker 5 (04:26):
isaac thoughts so if you were drafted into the army
and your squad was getting firedon right and you saw the person
who was shooting at you, wouldyou shoot them?
Speaker 4 (04:37):
well, first off, here's what I would say I'm
colorblind and I have adhd, so Icouldn't be in the military,
even if I was drafted, socheckmate atheists.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
How pathetic.
What if they drafted you anyway?
We're so desperate at thispoint that they're willing to
take you too.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
So here's what I do, right?
I'm up front, right, and thenBlake Tietro is right there
beside me and I use him as ameat shield, and then I don't
kill anybody, I understand, and?
Speaker 2 (05:05):
I use him as a meat shield and then I don't kill
anybody.
I understand, but we can keepasking those questions to Justin
.
Sure, it's a lot of fun.
I do want our overall thoughtson pacifism as well.
Speaker 5 (05:22):
So, isaac, where do you want to go with that?
I don't.
I think it's.
I wouldn't say you have to be apacifist.
I think as Christians we'recalled to be more loving and
take more hurt onto ourselves,but not throw away everything.
And don't protect your family,don't protect yourself, all that
(05:42):
stuff or other people, or don'tfight in wars wars because you
know you may have to fight evil.
If nobody would have foughtHitler, you know, something
could happen, you know.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Sure, I guess a pacifist might say something
along the lines of isn't thattaking matters into our own
hands instead of trusting God tochange hearts?
Speaker 5 (06:04):
What about when the Israelites invaded all the
Canaanites, all them?
And God was like kill them all,because I'm using you to save
these people, because they weredoing wrong to judge these
people.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
True, and that is a good point.
Israelites and Canaan and allthat, I think again just playing
.
We've got to come up with adifferent word.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
Nathan's advocate.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Nathan's advocate being me.
In other words, they might saywell, that was Old Testament
times.
What about New Testament, withthe church and the Sermon on the
Mount?
Can you be a Christian?
Look at someone across abattlefield end their life while
still obeying the Sermon on theMount?
(06:48):
Yes, Isaac says yes.
How?
Speaker 5 (06:56):
Because you are fighting for your country to
fight evil.
You're not fighting that oneperson.
It's not like you're sent outto fight evil.
You're not fighting that oneperson.
It's not like you're sent outto fight this one person.
You're fighting a movement ofevil.
Like in World War II, peoplewere getting drafted and people
were going to war to fight thisevil that was coming from these
(07:17):
other countries.
To push it back.
Because I feel like, as humansand as God's representatives on
earth, we are to fight evil.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
So you would take the view of it's not like a
personal thing, it's.
You are almost on behalf ofyour government the way like an
executioner, you're notmurdering the prisoner, you are
acting on behalf of the state asyou perform that action.
That's very interesting, justinso for me personally.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
Again, I go with kind of what Isaac said about that.
God called those people to bethe judgment.
Be God's judgment there.
I don't know Me personally.
I don't feel good about any ofthat.
I feel like if you take a life,that doesn't seem right to me,
(08:13):
it's the same way I feel veryiffy about the death penalty
because you're taking what'sGod's deal into your own hands.
That's how I feel about it.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Now would that extend to, let's say, a police officer
responding to a crime, let'ssay a murderer or a rapist, and
so if they're called to do it,they might have to take a life
in response to it?
Speaker 4 (08:39):
I think that the police officer's goal first of
all is not just to immediatelygo in there and kill somebody
they want to try to bring themin, and I'm all for that.
They need to be brought tojustice.
Sometimes there's escalationyes.
And if, sometimes, if a scene,if it can't be helped, like if
the police officer's defendinghimself or defending someone
else, that's in defense ofsomebody, but that's not like I
(09:02):
don't know, it's a weird, weirdline.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
I was going to ask do you think there's a difference
between killing and murder, ordo you think all like killing
someone is murder?
Or do you think there's likejustified killing like in war?
Or does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
What I'm trying to say?
Is there a difference betweenkilling and murder?
Speaker 4 (09:22):
There absolutely is.
I agree.
I don't know if.
I don't know if war is theright answer.
I don't think a lot of warsfought nowadays are for the
right reasons.
For example, when we gotinvolved in World War II, it was
in defense of these people whowere being persecuted horribly.
There are plenty of examples ofwars that the United States
(09:42):
have gone to.
That's just about money, andthat's terrible.
So many people died over amoney dispute.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Justin, the United States of America has never made
any mistakes.
Yeah, go on, zeke.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
So I knew there was a verse I was thinking of and I
think this is going to be apoint against Justin, as
everything seems to be, againstJustin, as everything seems to
be.
But so what?
And not just Justin, but okay.
So I struggle with this too, of, like you know, you do have the
Sermon on the Mount that saysturn the other cheek.
You have Jesus who, even whenhe was in the garden and Peter
(10:17):
cut off a guy's ear, he tellsPeter to put down a sword and he
heals the guy's ear.
So Jesus's life, it would seemhe would be.
We don't ever get him, we don'tever have him saying like, hey,
go fight these people.
We don't have examples ofChrist going out and doing these
actions, but we do have theApostle Paul in Romans 13, where
(10:39):
he talks about government, andthis kind of goes back to what
we're talking about.
It's like is there a situationwhere a government can send out
people to fight evil?
I'll just read what he said.
He said in verse 4.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Romans 13.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Yeah, romans 13, verse 4.
For he is talking about thegovernment, or the rulers in
their times.
Our version would be thegovernment, for he is God's
servant for your good, but ifyou do wrong, be afraid, for he
does not bear the sword in vain,for he is the servant of God.
And obviously that's where Iwould start the debate on okay,
(11:16):
well, what does it mean to carryout God's wrath?
Well, hopefully, most of thetime, that doesn't involve
killing.
However, I think, like Isaacwas saying before, there's
circumstances where it comes upwhere that is your last option.
You don't have a choice at thispoint.
And that goes back to James,where he says true religion is
to take care of the widow andthe orphan.
(11:37):
Well, in their time I mean evennow it's still hard for them,
but especially in their timethey were some of the most
helpless people, in the senselike they couldn't get ahead and
help themselves.
So if people were abusing them,it may come down to where you
have to do something you don'twant to have to do to take care
of them for their safety andtheir well-being.
I think the same goes back towhat you said, world War II.
(11:59):
We have obvious objective evilforces trying to take over the
world obvious objective evilforces trying to take over the
world and I don't think it was—Ithink the government did the
right thing.
Our government and others whowent against them say, hey,
we're going to put an end tothis evil as a part of God's
wrath on them.
That doesn't mean God came downand said, hey, I need you to do
this.
We just looked at it and said,hey, that's evil, we're going to
do something about it.
(12:19):
So what happens to the Sermonon the Mount then?
I think the Sermon on the Mountis more towards the individual
life.
So I would agree more withJustin on this one of like it
would be easy for me, I agree,it's easy for me to see, hey,
someone's being hurt and harmed,I'm going to go help them,
whereas if it's me, I'm going tobe less likely to do something
(12:43):
about it.
And obviously there's certainsituations, like if someone
comes up to my family or, youknow, someone points a gun at me
, I'm going to do what I can toget out of that situation.
But ultimately, like if it'sjust someone being abusive or
you know, jesus never puts us ina situation where or not.
Jesus never mentions asituation where someone's
literally trying to kill us.
However, he does say there aregoing to be people that try to
(13:06):
persecute us and that we're totrust in God and we're to pray
for them.
But I would trust God in thatsituation.
I'm not opposed to self-defense, but I'm going to be more
lenient towards trusting God andtrying my best to pray for that
person and, as a very, verylast resort, I would lean
towards that.
It would have to be a veryextreme circumstance but, to be
fair, I don't can't think of atime where I've been put in that
(13:27):
situation, so it's not a commonthing for my everyday life.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Now, Isaac, before we started recording, you
mentioned a movie with AndrewGarfield that I thought was
really interesting.
Can you tell us a little bitabout that movie?
Speaker 5 (13:45):
So this kid?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
when he was young it's called Hacksaw Ridge.
Speaker 5 (13:49):
Everybody who's listening probably knows of it.
Hurt, his brother almost killedhim when he was young and so
after that he decided to becomea pacifist or whatever, to never
hurt anybody again.
And then he gets drafted orwants to go into the army or
something like that and uh goesthrough it and when they tell
him he's got to shoot people,he's like I'm not going to take
(14:10):
a gun, I'm just going to go anddo my thing and be like a medic
or something.
So he does and he saves a lotof people.
Um, that's basically the gistof the of the movie what was
your, you just want to make withthat?
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Well in a certain direction.
There are people who their wayof solving the whole Romans, 13
Matthew, chapter 5 possibledilemma not saying it is, but it
could possibly be two passagesof scripture against one another
.
Is they say all right, I'm goingto go that route.
(14:43):
I'm never going to get into anysort of political office.
I'm going to be a conscientiousobjector when it comes to war.
I'm not going to be a policeofficer, and so that way, if I
avoid those positions, I canlive a pacifistic life, and so
(15:04):
that's one way they try toresolve that.
Speaker 5 (15:13):
But if you go about your life that way, like one
person here or there can do that, but if you go about your life
that way, all these people whoare in authority, all these
people who are making thesedecisions, do not have Christian
values.
If no Christian is in thesepositions, then we're all just
sitting on the sideline overhere.
And you know, if everybody'sgoing to war and we're just
sitting over here, they're goingto be like why are you not
trying to fight this evil?
And the same with governmentand all that stuff is like oh,
(15:33):
all these things are evil, let'screate policies to fight it,
like abortion and stuff.
But if all the Christians arelike no, we can't be government
officials, we're just going tosit on the side, you're really,
I think you're just not doinganything.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
So, okay, I think, maybe, okay, I thought of
another example from Jesus wherehe actually gives a pretty
graphic description of how.
Now, obviously he doesn't tellus to do this, but I think this
is the government could use thisas a sense of this would be
justified.
You possibly could justifygovernment's punishment of those
who harm children.
(16:08):
When?
What did Jesus say?
Whenever he said uh, anyone whoharms a child deserves what.
It would be better for them tobe tied to the millstone and
drowned right.
Yeah, it would be better forthem to be killed than to harm a
child.
So I think Jesus took seriouslylike certain crimes and I'm not
saying that's the verse, butI'm saying that's a verse that
people could use to say there'scertain crimes that go too far
(16:30):
and people have lost their rightto life.
And I think that's in themodern era.
We've kind of forgotten thatlike our life is like it's not
something that we deserve, it'ssomething that we're given like
and it can be taken away in aninstant.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Yeah, true, yeah, those are.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
You want to say something.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Those are all good thoughts and people have
wrestled with it.
On one end you have pacifism,and then on the other end you
have what's called just wartheory, where it is okay to
fight as long as it's a lastresort and other options have
been exhausted.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
Maybe that would be.
I think that may be more how Iwould.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Yeah, because you don't seem like you're just.
Oh, there's never a situation,it's all about don't ever like.
Speaker 4 (17:17):
There are certain reasons, like you have to defend
yourself or defend others.
And again, I never, would ever,trash on like a soldier for
doing what they do.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Because what they do is admirable.
So you're going to withdrawyour application to Westboro
Baptist.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
I guess I'll have to.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Okay, all right, I'm glad this episode is doing good
work ladies and gentlemen.
All right, so yeah, justdifferent things there that you
could walk through.
I think the tricky thing isgoing is sometimes we don't even
apply the Sermon on the Mountin the situations that we can.
(18:11):
So we're worried, or at least Iam.
I know, in my thought process Ithink about all the exceptions
and all the extremes.
But going back to Jesus's words, most of the time, by
definition we're not in anexception, we're not in an
extreme.
So the Sermon on the Mount, youcan say, yeah, it doesn't apply
(18:32):
to everything, but do you useit in your day-to-day life for
the normal situations?
Isaac?
Speaker 5 (18:39):
I would agree with you on that and, like the Bible
says, to be peacemakers Ineveryday life.
Most of the time we're notfighting somebody who's doing
wrong, right, so we can turn theother cheek.
We can forgive, we can do allthese things.
We can still forgive someonewho does something wrong.
But I think where pacifism andthat would disagree is they're
like never, never do anythingabout it, whereas in your daily
(19:03):
life, as a personal Christian,everybody needs to follow the
Sermon on the Mount.
You know and be a peacemaker inlife and try to live peacefully
with everybody.
But if something happens or ifyou're put in that situation
like a police officer orsomething, you need to do your
duty as a servant of thecommunity.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Yeah, that's a good point.
I mean Paul brought that up too.
Was it Philippians?
I forget, but somewhere you canGoogle.
He said if at all possible,live peaceably with others.
So that assumes that there'sgoing to be certain situations
where people aren't willing tolive peaceably with you, and
there's been those in history.
Like, if you look back at Iguess this is on my mind just
(19:42):
because of everything that'sbeen going on in the world
lately but like, if you lookback to I think it was like the
90s, maybe it was sooner, butwhenever there were certain
sects of Islam taking overcertain countries that
Christians were in, there was athing where they could.
If they didn't convert to Islam, they would kill them and all
(20:03):
they had to do was say hey, youknow, I believe in Muhammad,
yada, yada, yada.
So there's going to be certainsituations where there's certain
people and it may not even bereligious people, it could be
anybody that are going to say no, we don't.
Peace isn't an option.
Either you convert or you die,and if that's the case, like you
can't, that's not an option,for peace is what I'm trying to
get at.
So there's going to besituations where that's not the
case.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Yeah, I just thought of something as y'all were
talking about that.
But the Bible does say that wedon't fight with flesh and blood
.
I think the difference is weknow how sacred life is and how
each and every person carries somuch worth and they're made in
the image of God.
But when it comes to wars and,like you said, where we're
(20:45):
fighting against evil, it's notnecessarily towards that person,
even if they are in agreementwith it.
It's more like, like you said,like the evil forces that we're
fighting against, not thatperson.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
Yeah, I think I heard a good point on this where
there was a guy whose dad servedin.
I want to say it was World War I, it was one or two, I can't
remember the guy who.
I guess it was probably one,because the guy who was saying
it was kind of old himself andhe asked his dad one time he's
(21:24):
like you know what was it like?
Like, uh, you know, fighting inthe war against those other guys
, and I think that his take onit was probably the attitude
that people should have, becauseit would probably be easy to be
scarred from it and just thinkof them as like a, not a human
like you're saying, like theyare humans on the other side of
every war and some are misled onthe wrong ideology.
But his dad said he's like allI could think about is that
there's going to be some guysgoing home today or some guys
who will never, whose wives andkids will never get to see them
(21:46):
again.
And I mean they kind of hit thepoint like there's, these
aren't just ideologies, butthese are people who are being
deceived about these evil thingsand obviously they are to blame
for their own beliefs, but atthe same time, like we shouldn't
be so hard-hearted towards themto forget that they were made
in the image of god, even ifthey are deceived.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Yeah and that reminds me of some civil war stories
you'd read about where, if thetwo sides knew there was going
to be a battle the next day,like the night before you know,
they would kind of get togetherin parties along the war line,
just wherever the camps weresituated, and they would trade
(22:30):
whatever items, objects, youknow, barter, there would be
music and you know, maybe somedrinking.
We have Baptists present, sothey were drinking ginger ale
and Sprite.
Baptists present, so they weredrinking ginger ale and Sprite.
You know anyways, but just theyrecognize.
Hey, tomorrow I'm going to haveto shoot at you and we might
(22:51):
have to do some awful things,but tonight we can recognize
that these were sons, you knowjust teenage kids and young men,
and sometimes older men as well, obviously.
And there's a human side to waras well, so you can't forget
that too.
And so just war is ugly, nomatter where you fall on all
that.
Speaker 5 (23:09):
Isaac I agree with everything I've said so far.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Everything you've said so far, hold on.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Did the devil's advocate?
Speaker 5 (23:18):
make you change your mind.
No, no, no.
So in In a situation whereChristians were being persecuted
when Paul was alive, right,they weren't fighting back.
Does that make sense, mm-hmm?
So why?
I get they were fighting backbecause they were persecuting
(23:41):
Christians and all that stuff,but if they were killing people,
why wouldn't they fight back?
Speaker 2 (23:50):
So a few things.
One, the pacifist, might saybecause they're not supposed to.
So there's the faith side Don'tdo it because you're not
supposed to fight back, Flee orhandle the persecution which was
at the very beginning of theChristian church.
(24:11):
Their numbers were so tiny thatany resistance against the
Roman Empire would have beenfutile.
So if you're an ant, yeah, youmight not like the elephant, but
you can't do a whole lot to theelephant.
And so there's a practicalresponse of they're not going to
think to fight because they'reso few in number.
Like we read the New Testament,the early church, like Acts, oh
(24:35):
, the church is growing.
And that's true they were, butoverall, compared to the Roman
Empire, they were e little,little bitty, whatever English
groups of people that couldn'thave done much to the empire
empire.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
Not only that, but I'm just thinking you can tell
me if this is wrong butpractically like today, while,
yes, it would probably be justas hard for us to fight back
against all of the us military,we would probably be better off,
like, fighting individualbattles, because, like, and for
better, for worse, guns exist.
So, like, you don't have to belike a trained soldier to be
(25:08):
good at fighting.
Like all you gotta do is beable to pull a trigger, versus
then, like, even if they wantedto fight back, then, like you've
got trained soldiers thatyou're, you would have to
somehow defeat all of them byyourself.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
And so there's a practical answer that some
people might go with.
Yeah, that's a good point, zeke.
We have guns now, which makesit a little bit easier, but then
the US military has amazingtechnological capabilities, a
lot of which they don't tell thepublic about.
But, yes, that is true.
And so just some answers there.
Allegedly, allegedly, don'thurt me, and so, anyways, those
(25:42):
might be a couple answers.
Do either of those soundreasonable to you?
Either the pacifistic one orthe practicality one?
Yeah, the practicality one.
Speaker 5 (25:52):
Yeah, the practicality one kind of sounds.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
but it's like they don't have stories for every
situation.
Speaker 5 (26:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
So we really don't know.
Yeah, but obviously if they did, it wasn't big enough to matter
.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
It's very different than in Europe and America today
.
We're Christians, number in themany millions.
Now, all of a sudden, ifsomeone wants to attack us
because of our religion, we havefamilies and communities and
it's like now.
If we wanted to fight now, itwould actually.
We'd actually be able toprotect ourselves.
Speaker 5 (26:27):
But would we?
But would we?
Should we?
Should we If someone's Greatquestion, if someone?
Speaker 3 (26:32):
is.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
That is yes.
Speaker 5 (26:34):
If someone is attacking our faith, should we
fight back.
Maybe.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Define attacking our faith.
Speaker 5 (26:41):
Persecuting Christians and killing them just
because they're Christians.
Define persecution Killing themjust because they're Christians
.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
What is a?
Speaker 5 (26:47):
woman, a female, an adult female and maybe not.
But so what I'm thinking islike maybe they didn't fight
back because they were justpersecuting them.
Does that make sense?
And so they were probably likeJesus said, you know, they're
(27:08):
not of this world, they're notgoing to fight Like they were
given their life, like Jesus was.
But maybe I could see how acould see how pacifists would
see that.
But then on the other end oflike the Hitler debate, where I
could see where that's okay todefy him, you know, because of
evil going on in the whole world, in there, Dietrich Bonhoeffer
thought so killing people triedto kill Hitler yeah yeah, I
(27:29):
think I kind of agree with whatyou're saying.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Like if it's an attack on me where they say you
either deny, we say you knowthat everyone is made in the
(27:52):
image of God, like with the Jews, then it is our responsibility
to put it into that like at allpossible, if we can.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
So good points, mackenzie, isaac, someone breaks
into your home and they sayIsaac, I want all your money
because that's a secular reason,are you saying oh, I can, I can
stop this person.
But if the robber breaks intoyour home and says I'm going to
beat you up because you're aChristian, you're at that point
(28:22):
You're like well, I guess Ican't defend myself, I guess OK
so so you would differentiatebetween secular reasons and
specifically for your faith.
Speaker 5 (28:33):
I would say moral and like we are okay with defense,
right, we're all okay withdefense and helping other people
, and y'all said if you sawsomeone on the street get
attacked, you would help them,right, and I agree that is okay.
But I think the Christiansdidn't fight back because they
(28:53):
were attacking them for beingchristians.
They were like I mean, whyfight back?
Speaker 4 (28:58):
maybe it's just the symbolism that comes from being
a martyr in that way yeah, it'sjust like the power behind that.
Speaker 5 (29:05):
They were attacking them for their faith.
So, so why they were like thisis glorious that God would
choose us to be persecuted, butyou do need to defend the weak
and the needy and take care ofthe poor and the orphan.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Yeah, I think you make a good point of it.
It does come to will thisglorify God too, like if we see
someone getting hurt and we gohelp them, then what?
If they ask, why did you helpme?
And you say, well, because Ibelieve all, all life has
purpose and all life is made inthe image of God, then that
that's a way you can witness tothem.
(29:42):
But in the same sense, like yousaid, if it is a situation
where you don't defend yourselfand it can also bring glory to
God, then then that's all thatmatters.
I think both situations can, ifthat makes sense.
It's just depending on what itis.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
The point we keep circling around?
Is it really just depends on?
the situation and both canequally be good in the sense of,
on a personal level, of if I'mbeing persecuted, like Mackenzie
was saying, like I think shewas echoing Paul, when Paul's
like death, where is your sting?
Like we shouldn't be afraid ofdeath, like I should.
(30:18):
I know it's still going to, butin reality it really shouldn't
bother us because we've gotimmense things waiting for us on
the other side.
But at the same time, likewhile God has us here and he has
a plan for us being here, howcan we best live out that plan?
While he keeps us alive?
Because if God wants us dead,he'll use whatever means he
needs to to kill us.
Or if he wants us alive, he'lluse whatever means he needs to
(30:41):
to keep us alive.
I think of what was his name,mari Mar, is that the?
He was the Orthodox preacherwho was almost shot during
service.
Speaker 4 (30:49):
Yeah, yeah, I know what you're talking about.
There's countless other yeah,and the dude stabbed him too.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
Yeah, he ended up stabbing him in the eye, but I
think someone tried.
It was either him or someoneelse.
Someone tried to shoot him andthe gun just kept jamming and
it's like if God wants him here,god will keep him here Do you
Something else about that?
Speaker 4 (31:05):
that was incredible and this I know it's not
technically on topic, but justspeak on that.
What he said, the second thathe got up from being stabbed, is
everybody was about to go getthat man and that guy went no,
no, no, no, no, don't kill him,pray for him, pray for him,
reign to justice, but pray forhim.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
It's amazing, and I think that's a perfect example
of there are some people whowould go too far and jump to the
killing right away, and when Isay last resort, I really I
think that's a perfect exampleof last resort.
Like it wasn't to the pointwhere he had to kill him, he
said I'm safe.
Now we've got him, uh, detained.
Let's pray for him.
Let's, let's look out for thisguy pacifists believe you can't
(31:45):
hurt anybody, right it's, thereare levels, but some would go
like no matter what okay.
Speaker 5 (31:51):
So I would say I would say it's okay to hurt to
protect, but, like y'all said,killing last resort, like if
somebody came to my house Iwouldn't immediately shoot them
in the head you know, I'dprobably try to wound them and
yeah, but not saying I'm a greatrunning after you or something.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Yeah, yeah, you would .
Just I would fight that youdon't kill them, but you'd hope
that you wound them, yeah.
Speaker 5 (32:12):
But I don't remember what else I was going to say.
Oh yeah, the Christians were.
Do you think it was differentbecause the Christians were
being persecuted by thegovernment instead of a random
your neighbor over here?
Speaker 3 (32:26):
Yeah, I think that kind of goes back to what he was
saying of like, in a sense, ifit's the government attacking
you, you're an ant to anelephant like.
You can try and fight back allyou want, but it's really not
gonna do much so I mean, I don'tknow, that's just practical, I
think of all right, good, goodthoughts, lots of things to
consider.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Is it?
Am I fighting for country,family myself?
What are the motivations forthe attack?
Also, is it the government oris it like just some random
stranger off the streetattacking me?
Speaker 1 (32:58):
What is my?
Speaker 2 (32:59):
heart.
What is my reason for being inthe fight or not fighting?
Lots of good stuff to thinkthrough and consider.
I think pacifists they do havesome scriptural support, no
matter where you land on theconversation.
And then there's just wartheory and other things to
consider.
Good conversation.
Any other thoughts before wewrap up on the topic, anything
(33:24):
y'all want to share?
Are you a pacifist?
Speaker 3 (33:26):
No, what's your views , Mr Devil's Advocate.
Speaker 5 (33:31):
Mr Advocate for the Devil.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
So, zeke, what I've?
Obviously, justin, I've missedyou being on the show and I'm
glad whenever you can make it,but typically when you're not in
one of the episodes, nobodyasks me for my opinion, and I
really like that, so I can justfacilitate the conversation.
(33:54):
Unfortunately, zeke picked upyour mantle in this episode and
asked me Amen, Amen brother.
My position on it is God createdthe world to function a certain
way.
That's called natural law.
So if you want society toflourish, you need peace, you
need freedom, you need thegovernment to be doing its job.
(34:18):
Zeke read about that in Romans13.
That's kind of the foundationalverse for government.
Its responsibility is to punishevil and reward good, and part
of that means the use of forceif necessary.
If the government does not useforce, if it does not forcefully
help a society to be peaceful,it's not doing its job.
(34:38):
So when it comes to violence ingeneral, it is okay to use
violence to enforce natural law.
So, for example, a murderer isbreaking one of those laws Don't
murder.
Because society cannot flourishif people murder.
And so the government can useforce to enforce it Anyways.
(35:02):
So with war, same thing thegovernment's responsible for
taking care of its citizens,leading to peace.
Paul talks about that in 1Timothy, chapter 2, I believe
Pray for kings and rulers sothat there may be peace in the
land, so that the gospel mayspread.
Once the government isenforcing natural law those are
the laws by which God made theworld then the church is based
(35:25):
upon that.
The church can then do its job,which is, with freedom, to
share the gospel and to love andserve, be a light, be, salt,
all the rest of it.
So it's kind of like a twopronged approach to the world
government and then governmentdoes its job and the church
Anyways, all that's to say inyour personal life, be peaceful.
(35:48):
Life be peaceful.
However, there may come a timeand a place where, let's say,
with war, you have peopleinvading looking to do great
harm.
It's okay to pick up armsbecause evildoers are violating
the way God made the world tofunction and you can be a force
for good to set it right.
That does not mean you'rekilling on behalf of your
(36:09):
religion.
You are never.
It is never acceptable toconvert or die.
Put people into that choice bea christian or I'm going to kill
you.
We are never allowed to do that.
Um, all war is really supposedto be defensive in on behalf of
others.
So anyway, sorry for the, sorryfor the three minute spiel
(36:30):
there, but but just on, my forceis okay, but never for your
faith reasons to make people bea Christian.
Anyways, now that that diatribeis over, any other thoughts,
comments, questions on the issue?
Speaker 5 (36:47):
Isaac, the Israelites would have fought when someone
tried to invade them, right.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
Yes.
Speaker 5 (36:53):
That's okay.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
They were a theocracy .
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Yeah, and so, isaac, we've never had you finish the
show before.
Do you want to lead us home?
He shakes his head.
No, I know Justin's ready, buthold on, justin.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
Zeke no, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Zeke Okay, all right, justin, take us home.
Speaker 4 (37:18):
What is it Blake typically sings?
Speaker 5 (37:21):
Sometimes he sings Creed.
Speaker 4 (37:24):
Oh yeah, that's what we got to do.
Love you, buddy, thank you.
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