September 18, 2024 • 30 mins
Santa Monica, CA | How does a group once celebrated for its success treating heroin addicts become a violent cult? Founded in 1958 by Charles "Chuck" Diederich, Synanon initially presented itself as an innovative and promising program for those struggling with addiction. However, beneath its acclaimed exterior lay a deeply flawed foundation. Despite praise from the media and endorsements from prominent figures - including one of the most influential psychologists of the 20th century - Synanon was always rotten at the core. You’ll be shocked by the methods Synanon used to treat drug addiction, all while enjoying public recognition.
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Our top sources for this episode include:
-Katherine, Kubler (Director/Executive Producer). (2024). The Program: Cons, Cults, and Kidnapping. https://www.netflix.com/title/81579761
-The Sunshine Place (2022). [Audio podcast]. Executive Produced by Robert Downey Jr., Susan Downey, and Emily Barclay Ford for Team Downey, together with Josh McLaughlin for Wink Pictures. https://www.audacy.com/podcast/all.
-Janzen, R. (2001). The Rise and Fall of Synanon: A California Utopia. Johns Hopkins University Press.
-That’s So Fcked Up (2024, April 17). TRENDING TOPIC: Synanon- Drug Rehab Turned Dangerous Cult [Audio podcast episode]. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thats-so-fcked-up/id1508752329?i=1000652758034
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello Dark City fans.
This is Leah and this is April.
Once praised as a beacon ofhope for heroin addicts, Synanon
started under the name TenderLoving Care and was praised by
the media and high-profilefigures, including one of the
most influential psychologistsof the 20th century.
But its fall from grace was asdramatic as it was disturbing.
(00:23):
How did a group once celebratedfor its success transform into
a violent sect that terrorizedits own members and waged war on
its critics?
This is Dark City Season 1, LosAngeles, April.
Did I ever tell you about theresearch assistant position I
(00:44):
had in college?
It was for a research groupcalled the ADAM Project.
Adam stands for Arrestee DrugAbuse Monitoring.
I vaguely remember this.
Yeah, understand drug use amongpeople who were arrested and
booked in the United States.
(01:04):
To do this, as researchassistants, we would conduct 30
to 45 minute long interviewswith people soon after they had
been booked into jail.
The interviews were reallyextensive.
We would go drug by drug, coke,heroin, ask if they had taken
it, how frequently, over whattime frame the past week, past
six months, If they agreed andalso gave a urine sample to test
(01:28):
, they would get a Snickers barfor participation.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
That's hilarious a Snickers bar.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
It's so random, a Snickers bar.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
If you're really hungry, have a Snickers.
That's what they say, right.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
True, this is true, and it's jail, so it's probably
the best food you're getting fora while.
I mean, yeah, of all the peopleI interviewed, there's two
individuals I remember most andthey were both heroin addicts.
They were in early stagewithdrawal and I have never seen
anything like it.
Their bodies were in cleardistress.
(02:03):
They're crying, scratchingtheir skin.
The woman I interviewedliterally started crying like
she lost a child.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
It was that severe.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
She agreed to do the interview, but I believe we had
to cut it off.
It was just too much.
In short, heroin addiction isalmost impossible to overcome.
Withdrawals are painful andthey can extend for days.
Just think of the worstpossible flu you've ever had.
Those are the symptoms and evenif you get past that phase,
(02:35):
it's really hard to break thehabit permanently Going back
about seven or eight decades, tothe 1950s.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Little was known about how to help heroin addicts
.
Back then most would just endup in jail.
The rest were confined to asmall number of mental
institutions that usedtechniques such as solitary
confinement and straitjackets.
When a small nonprofit based inSanta Monica started reporting
astonishing successes helpingheroin addicts overcome their
(03:07):
addiction in the late 1950s, itreceived a lot of press and
recognition.
Founded in 1958 by CharlesDiederich, initially under the
name Tender Loving Care, thegroup would become known as
quote the Miracle on the Beach,as it was described by the
former senator of Connecticut,thomas Dodd.
(03:28):
Born in 1913 in Toledo, ohio,chuck Diederich's early life was
shaped by tragedy.
His father was an alcoholic andhe died in a car accident with
another woman when he was onlyfour years old.
His mother was Catholic in themost militant way and he
remembers living in fear thatsimple mistakes would send him
(03:52):
to eternal damnation.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
So it sounds like his mom and his dad were really
polar opposite and maybe his momwas like a reaction to his dad.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Yeah, like through her controlling him, she got
that.
I don't know, maybe thatsecurity that she didn't feel
with Chuck's dad, maybe.
Still, they were very close.
They would often stay up latetalking at night.
But when Chuck was 12, hismother remarried.
(04:24):
It really put a wedge betweenhim and his mom because he did
not like his stepfather, who hethought was proper and
capitalistic.
He enrolled in Notre Dame butnever finished.
Chuck became an alcoholic.
He bounced from job to job,marriage to marriage.
When he hit 40, he decided timeto make a life change.
(04:47):
So he packed up and headed westto California.
There he discovered AlcoholicsAnonymous.
He got better and becameheavily involved in the
community.
Before we go forward, I need togive you a picture of what
Chuck looked like.
He was an intimidating presence.
He was a big man with a boomingvoice and he didn't exactly
(05:09):
have a stable personality.
One Synanon member put it wellyou kind of don't know who's
showing up, the jovial,charismatic guy or the angry
bully.
He was always wearing khakipants and a short-sleeved collar
shirt, which I think is a veryinteresting choice of clothing.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
I know, and also just noting too, guys, we'll post a
picture or two on Instagram soyou can picture him.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
What was most striking about his appearance
was that complications frommeningitis left half of his face
drooping.
He was a sight to behold, Tosay the least.
Chuck eventually broke awayfrom AA when he became
interested in using itsteachings to help drug addicts.
He also wanted to break freefrom its religious foundation,
(05:59):
teaching people to beself-reliant, responsible for
their own actions and kickingtheir addiction not through a
dependence on any higher power.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
And I wonder too if part of this was a reaction to
his mom's extreme teachings.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Yeah, I kind of thought the same thing.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
He was also reading a lot of philosophy, not clear
exactly how it ultimately gotfiltered through his head.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Lot of philosophy, not clear exactly how it
ultimately got filtered throughhis head.
It starts with Chuck meetingwith a few others from his AA
group.
Eventually the group expandedinto include individuals
addicted to heroin.
They grow into kind of a smallcommunity in Venice, california.
They grow out of that space andmove into a three-floor
abandoned armory on a beach inSanta Monica.
(06:46):
Along the way, they renamedthemselves Synanon.
The exact origin of the word isnot clear, but it was probably
a mashup of the words symposiumand seminar, which was what
Chakthadi was doing as he wasconducting this treatment.
Symposium, seminar soundspretty tame, right.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Yeah, it does sound tame.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Fairly altruistic.
Okay, we'll talk about thissoon, though.
Chuck had a famous quote Todayis the first day of the rest of
your life, and that's exactlywhat he intended for the
individuals who signed up forthe Synanon program.
It was no joke.
You had to commit to two yearsliving at Synanon facilities
following a very strict program.
(07:35):
To start, people would have tostay in a public room until
their painful drug withdrawalphase was complete no medicine
or anything.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
And just remembering from that experience as a
researcher for the Adam Project,I cannot imagine a room full of
people going through that.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Oh my gosh, it must have been just complete misery,
right?
You would have people in thisgroup setting puking in buckets.
It was really very intense.
Once withdrawal is complete,you get household assignments
cooking, cleaning and otherthings around the house.
There is a consistent emphasison strict discipline, group
(08:17):
therapy, peer support andmentoring.
It's basically run like acommune All your clothes, food,
everything taken care ofcollectively by the group.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
And this is where I think it sounds great and
innovative, because, remember,the alternative was you're
getting hospitalized or you'regoing to jail.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Committed.
Yeah, I feel like everythingstarts out really great always
and there's like it soundsreally nice, it sounds like
things are running efficiently.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Well, synanon never started out great, but we're
going to talk about the aspectthat's not great in a moment
here.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Yes, To pay for all of this.
There is a thousand dollar feecharged, but often people can't
afford it and it's waived.
To finance this, they do what'scalled hustling Literally, the
people in recovery would go outinto the community and ask for
donations, everything from foodto Christmas trees.
Chuck, as the leader, comparedmanaging Synanon to running a
(09:23):
large corporation like Gulf Oil,where he had worked.
At one point, chuck claimedthat 80% of addicts stay clean
after Synanon, which isphenomenal.
What's also phenomenal is agroup of ex-heroin addicts with
no leadership experience doingsuch a great job running this
whole operation.
It's very smooth.
(09:44):
Doing such a great job runningthis whole operation it's very
smooth.
Also really amazing is thatSanta Monica and Los Angeles in
general are still raciallysegregated.
Through the 1960s, the SantaMonica beach, where Synanon was
headquartered, was segregated.
In Synanon, though, there wasno segregation and people were
not judged by the color of theirskin.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
So Synanon is getting noticed.
It's getting written up inpublications like Life Magazine,
the Los Angeles Times, the NewYork Times.
Prominent political leaderslike Senator Dodd and civil
rights activists such as CesarChavez are singing its praises.
When Chuck gets arrested fortreating drug addicts without a
(10:24):
license because he doesn't havean official background in this,
california Governor Ed Brownsigned a bill exempting the
group from health licensing law.
The armed forces areconsidering placing
drug-addicted soldiers inSynanon.
Abraham Maslow, as I mentionedin the beginning, one of the
most consequential psychologistsin the 20th century, is really
(10:47):
complimentary of Synanonthroughout much of the sixties.
I'm going to quickly go overhis model.
In the background it might feellike we're taking a little bit
of a tangent, but it's so.
You can truly feel the gravityof what's being praised here and
who is doing the praising.
To give you a sense of thestate of what therapy could look
like, abraham Maslow is bestknown for Maslow's hierarchy of
(11:12):
needs.
In college it's covered inpsychology and leadership
classes, among others, and whenyou learn it for the first time,
usually people light up becauseit just really resonates.
Maslow is, I envisioned, humanneeds as a pyramid with the most
basic physiological needs atthe bottom, things like food,
(11:35):
water, shelter make sense.
As you climb the pyramid, youthen encounter safety needs.
Then you can start to thinkabout things like love and
belonging, followed by esteem,and at the very top sits
self-actualization, the need tofulfill one's full potential.
I remember learning about this.
(11:55):
Most people do.
It's one of those like just,it's so simple when you think
about it.
According to Rod Janssen's bookthe Rise and Fall of Synanon, a
California Utopia, maslow cameto the conclusion after visiting
the commune in the 1960sSynanon members were the most
self-actualized group he hadever met.
Maslow would later encourageone of his students to take up
(12:20):
residence here and study Synanon.
In a 1968 letter to the Synanonleader, reed Kimball, he states
quote it seems to me thatSynanon is now the only
functioning total utopia orEuseikian subculture in the
United States.
Euseikia is, by the way, aspecial term to describe the
(12:41):
best possible human society, andI don't know if that's exactly
how you pronounce it and I don'tcare because it's academic
hogwash, but we'll get there.
Maslow is particularly impressedby the cornerstone of Sinanon's
approach to treating drugaddiction.
It's called the game.
This is a group therapytechnique.
(13:03):
Everyone sits around in acircle and takes turns, honing
in on each other's challenge, inon each other's challenge.
From Rod Jansen's book, hedescribes it as a place where
quote individual beliefs andpractices were energetically
debated and where new ideas weretested and discussed.
If you watch the documentarythe Synanon Fix, you're going to
(13:24):
hear former Synanon membersrave about how the game helped
them.
They miss it.
It was just such a wonderfulexperience.
April, would you like to hear afew quotes of the typical
things that people say to eachother in these sessions of the
game?
Absolutely.
I'm kind of intrigued, youthought that it was your job to
(13:48):
be a martyr.
That is a lie, because you aresuch an affected fool.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
You are such a phony bitch.
How is this helpful?
You are a minimum dailymotherfucker.
You are going to grow up, youold asshole.
And it's super easy for us tolaugh now because we are not
(14:20):
sitting in these sessions at anincredibly vulnerable time in
life or just ever, when you'regoing for therapy and you're
being attacked this way.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
I think the motherfucker one is my favorite.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Oh, not if you're in the hot seat, though.
Oh my gosh, what was the?
Speaker 2 (14:39):
point of these.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Well, first I'll just say that's not a great
representation of what actuallyhappened, because they weren't
just saying those things, april,they were screaming them
happened because they weren'tjust saying those things, april,
they were screaming them.
What, yes, like?
Think of just the angriestperson you've heard If you watch
the Synanon fix.
A lot of these quotes came fromthat.
It's just people yelling andscreaming at each other.
(15:03):
I'm not going to scream becauseI have kids in the other room,
thankfully my child, who issitting here for most of the
beginning for the conference isnot here.
So I'm not going to screambecause I don't want my kids to
hear that in the other room.
But by the way, speaking ofkids, they started playing the
game with kids as young as three.
(15:23):
There was one quote from Chuckthat was so racist.
I refuse to repeat it here, butjust to give you a sense of
like, there was nothing offlimits to be said, even in a
society that claimed to not beracist.
Maslow thought that though.
Maslow, getting back to him, hethought that well, if you air
(15:46):
your verbal aggression, thenyou're less likely to be
physically violent because yougot it out of your system.
This makes me so angry and sosad.
When he constructed his pyramidand he put safety second in
terms of basic needs, he clearlydid not mean psychological
safety, because words can'tpossibly traumatize you for the
(16:08):
rest of your life.
That never dawned on him, whichis why the vast majority of
people who played the game inthe least disliked it or were
traumatized by it for the restof their life.
Chuck used this technique ofattack therapy because he
believed people emerged changedand accountable.
In his pamphlet ChuckDiedrich's 12 Favorite Gaming
(16:32):
Techniques, he outlinespractices that include ridicule,
and he suggested starting gameswith questions like the most
boring person in this circle isyou fill in the blank.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
That's kind of messed up.
I don't.
I guess I don't see how thistechnique was supposed to work.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
And the most boring person in the circle.
Okay, I do not understand howthat relates at all to drug
addiction and how it relates toanything ever.
It's just cruel.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
It's almost better to be the most boring person,
because then you're the one thathas the fewest issues that you
got to work out Like you're justchill.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
You're just hanging out, and if you're the most
boring person, you're probablynot yelling and screaming at
everybody else in the group.
Yeah, but Chuck Hefton.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
I'd be pretty boring in that circle.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
I think being boring means you're sane.
He has one basic rule though nophysical violence.
What really happens, asreporter and author Maya
Cezalovitz explains in thedocumentary the Program?
Humiliation and emotionalattacks knock people off balance
, and groups like Synanon usethat to get compliance and to
(17:45):
get people to adopt theirideology.
Oh okay, another great quotefrom this documentary from John
Jalalik, a leading coal expert.
She says quote they're tearingapart your self-esteem and
tearing apart your trust inyourself and eventually tearing
apart yourself.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
That makes more sense .
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Exactly, and it's so obvious to us now, and I don't
even honestly know back then,even when so little was talked
about in terms of mental healthor therapy, how anyone could sit
in that and not understand.
This is completely messed up.
The games were played severaltimes a week.
(18:33):
They would go on for a fewhours.
Eventually they would run allday with people rotating in and
out, and they would eventuallybe broadcast on their own radio
station, the Wire, and Chuckwasn't on there talking, and
then they played some otherthings too.
I have to note here too thatthere's never an experienced
therapist sitting in any ofthese circles.
(18:54):
Former Synanon member MikeGible observed quote whoever had
a loud voice would play thegame better.
Because they were.
There were a lot of people thatwere terrified.
We never say a word becausethey were scared.
The group pressure, whether itwas to support or go against it,
was very powerful, but all thetime, whether it was in the game
or out of the game, everyonesaid if you leave here, you're
(19:17):
going to die.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
That is a lot of pressure.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
There is another key component of drug addiction
treatment at Synanon, while inAA, chuck also participated in
an experiment at UCLA to see ifLSD could cure alcoholism.
His experience was so profoundhe said he emerged a different
person After crying for threedays and intense feelings of
love and omnipotence, amongothers.
(19:43):
He was a changed man.
Chuck wanted Synanon members toalso have the same
transformative peak experience,but without the LSD.
He eventually came up with thetrip.
First on your trip, itineraryhours of the game where you all
get a term being told what ahorrible human being you are and
why.
Then you are laid out in a bigroom and put into an alpha state
(20:08):
with a big group of people.
You're not allowed to sleep.
For three days you will dothings like play the Ouija board
To channel group consciousness.
No, some members communicatedwith Moses, thomas Aquinas
witches, which is actually kindof cool, I will admit.
(20:29):
At the end you join a big partywith everyone in white robes
where you feel transformed orprobably just severely tired,
hungry and dysregulated.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Did Moses, thomas Aquinas or none of the witches
tell them get out?
I guess not.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
I have a feeling at that point, if they did, they
would not admit it.
This whole radical.
Transparency was great, unlessyou were questioning Synanon.
Well, not so much in thebeginning, but it definitely
evolved that way and three dayswith no sleep oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Sleep is so important to your brain.
It cannot function for threedays, 72 hours.
Yeah, that is terrible.
Then you end up taking, likeyour brain takes, like micro
naps.
It'll like shut itself off, ohmy gosh.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Exactly so I I don't know how anyone could ever think
this is a good idea, but theydid.
Now, well, attack therapy andthe trip have some obvious
issues and open up people forabuse.
It's not dissuading Synanonfrom growing to people who are
not addicted to anything, peoplethat just like the community
(21:50):
and want to live in the commune.
They learned about Synanon notjust from the news, but also by
coming to their Saturday nightparties.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Why do all of the cults always have parties?
I feel like they always havethese big lavish parties?
Well, because Mark Vicente yougot to attract that positive
attention somehow.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Well, mark Vicente, he was a former NXIVM cult
member.
He had this quote it was sogood it was and I shared this on
the Source Family.
Nobody joins a cult, they joina good thing.
If there were never parties orreally amazing aspects of this,
nobody would ever be there andthere would be no cult.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
I guess, that's true.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
That's how they I mean, that's how people idealize
and stay and join in the firstplace.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Well, to drive awareness and membership,
synanon was having those hugeparties every Saturday night,
complete with jazz bands anddancing.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Oh, by the way, you could see, by the way, synanon
even had its own Synanon dance,true story.
Oh, they did.
I won't.
I'll pass.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
I wonder what it was.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Oh my gosh, you like shake your arms and legs and
it's not like a choreographed, Idon't know.
You know like the whole thingis just nonsense, but go on like
dancing, like um.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
what's her name on Seinfeld?
Oh I.
Who's Julia Louis-Dreyfus's?
Oh God.
You could see celebrities suchas Jane Fonda, charlton Heston,
lucille Ball hanging out atSynanon.
Leonard Nimoy, who played DrSpock on Star Trek, started
teaching an acting class theretoo.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Well, you know April when the celebrities show up.
Now it's legitimate.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
It must be good Must be good.
But, you know, none of themstayed.
So what the non-heroine addictsor squares as Chuck called them
saw in Synanon was anenlightened community.
Surprisingly, despite thecombative nature of the game,
people from all differentbackgrounds were getting along
(24:01):
really well Now, this justreally amazes me.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
I don't understand how people can come out of those
sessions and not have at leastsome hard feelings.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Yeah, or like irritation or anger towards
someone I don't know.
I don't think I could do it.
I would probably be mad atpeople for a while.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yes, you would rightfully have that very human
emotion of being mad, as youshould be.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
And then you'd have this like stress response and
anger and defensiveness.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
I think I just I don't.
I don't understand how they didit, but they did.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
There is also a general undercurrent of distrust
in government from the VietnamWar and the Watergate scandal
and an openness to experimentwith different social
arrangements.
During that Right Right, chucksaid dope fiends the original
synonym members had nine fingersand he wanted to surround
(24:59):
himself with people who had tenfingers the squares.
He allowed them to move.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Sorry.
I'm sure they felt amazingabout themselves after hearing
that.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I know, come on, he allowed them to move into the
community starting in themid-1960s.
It also did not hurt that theyhad money and resources to give
to Sinanon.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
I suspect, the real reason for the change.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Hmm, with more squares moving in, sinanon had
to house and educate theirchildren too.
They opened up a private school, which meant they had wide
latitude to do whatever theywanted.
Some of the teaching styles andcurriculum were innovative,
almost like a Montessori school,and some were just nonsense.
(25:47):
Regardless, it was challengingall the time because Chuck
wanted to experiment and theresult was a very uneven
educational experience For thefirst few years that Synanon
accepted kids.
Many said later in life thatthey loved it.
They were never lonely and theyconstantly had activities to
(26:07):
occupy their time.
And living on the beach wasamazing Like what kid wouldn't
like that?
But their lives were far fromconventional.
Chuck believed that it wasbetter for kids' brains to be
placed separately from theirparents.
With no degree, by the way.
Right, he's an expert orresearch or education, right,
(26:29):
okay?
Speaker 1 (26:31):
He's read a lot of Emerson and Thoreau and he's got
Maslow's blessing.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
And they know all about the brain Right.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
As do the celebrities that are coming all the time.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Yes, child development Starting at six
months, babies were separatedfrom their mothers and grew up
in the hatchery.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
Okay, I have to pause here because, speaking of
utopia, which is what Maslow wastalking about, with the society
, that reminds me of Brave NewWorld, where they called it the
hatchery where the kids were,which was a dystopian novel.
I do not understand this, butkeep going.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Parents could visit their children there, but under
the condition of communalparenting.
All of the parents are thekids' parents, not just the ones
that they were born to.
In 1969, chuck decides therewill be no more graduation for
former heroin addicts.
That cure rate of 80% that heonce claimed, he now says that
(27:39):
anyone who lives outside of thecommunity will relapse and die.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Oh, so now they have to live there permanently?
That sounds like a cult.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
The reality is, many did relapse after leaving the
Synanon program and there is alarge and continuous defection
rate throughout the two-yearprogram.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
I'm pretty sure they did not mention that to the
reporters.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Probably not, or any of the celebrities we will never
really know who truly stayedclean during and after the
program, because Synanon neverdid drug tests, despite the fact
that they would have receivedhundreds of thousands of dollars
in government funding if theyhad.
To me that makes me a littlebit skeptical.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
To me that says it all.
So, yes, yeah, let's recap.
We are 11 years into thisorganization that started as
Tender Loving Care.
Actually, synanon is not amiracle on the beach.
Synanon can't permanently treatheroin addicts, if at all.
By this point, most ofSynanon's members are not even
former addicts, they just wantto live in this commune.
(28:42):
Synanon has sharply pivotedaway from its original mission
of addiction treatment.
This is no longer the sameorganization, but it's still run
by the same Chuck, and the samecornerstone to this community
is still the game, which meansall of the building blocks are
in place for Synanon's eventualevolution into a violent cult,
(29:05):
and that will happen over thenext decade.
And with that we're going tostop here and continue with that
story next week in part two.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Thank you so much for joining.
You can follow us on socialmedia under the name dark city
pod on Instagram, facebook andthreads.
Also, to continue to grow ouraudience, we would love it If
you could share dark city withanyone you think might enjoy it.
Until next time, bye, thank you.
Hello Dark City fans.
This is Leah and this is April.
Once praised as a beacon ofhope for heroin addicts, Synanon
started under the name TenderLoving Care and was praised by
the media and high-profilefigures, including one of the
most influential psychologistsof the 20th century.
But its fall from grace was asdramatic as it was disturbing.
(00:23):
How did a group once celebratedfor its success transform into
a violent sect that terrorizedits own members and waged war on
its critics?
This is Dark City Season 1, LosAngeles, April.
Did I ever tell you about theresearch assistant position I
(00:44):
had in college?
It was for a research groupcalled the ADAM Project.
Adam stands for Arrestee DrugAbuse Monitoring.
I vaguely remember this.
Yeah, understand drug use amongpeople who were arrested and
booked in the United States.
(01:04):
To do this, as researchassistants, we would conduct 30
to 45 minute long interviewswith people soon after they had
been booked into jail.
The interviews were reallyextensive.
We would go drug by drug, coke,heroin, ask if they had taken
it, how frequently, over whattime frame the past week, past
six months, If they agreed andalso gave a urine sample to test
(01:28):
, they would get a Snickers barfor participation.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
That's hilarious a Snickers bar.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
It's so random, a Snickers bar.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
If you're really hungry, have a Snickers.
That's what they say, right.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
True, this is true, and it's jail, so it's probably
the best food you're getting fora while.
I mean, yeah, of all the peopleI interviewed, there's two
individuals I remember most andthey were both heroin addicts.
They were in early stagewithdrawal and I have never seen
anything like it.
Their bodies were in cleardistress.
(02:03):
They're crying, scratchingtheir skin.
The woman I interviewedliterally started crying like
she lost a child.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
It was that severe.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
She agreed to do the interview, but I believe we had
to cut it off.
It was just too much.
In short, heroin addiction isalmost impossible to overcome.
Withdrawals are painful andthey can extend for days.
Just think of the worstpossible flu you've ever had.
Those are the symptoms and evenif you get past that phase,
(02:35):
it's really hard to break thehabit permanently Going back
about seven or eight decades, tothe 1950s.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Little was known about how to help heroin addicts
.
Back then most would just endup in jail.
The rest were confined to asmall number of mental
institutions that usedtechniques such as solitary
confinement and straitjackets.
When a small nonprofit based inSanta Monica started reporting
astonishing successes helpingheroin addicts overcome their
(03:07):
addiction in the late 1950s, itreceived a lot of press and
recognition.
Founded in 1958 by CharlesDiederich, initially under the
name Tender Loving Care, thegroup would become known as
quote the Miracle on the Beach,as it was described by the
former senator of Connecticut,thomas Dodd.
(03:28):
Born in 1913 in Toledo, ohio,chuck Diederich's early life was
shaped by tragedy.
His father was an alcoholic andhe died in a car accident with
another woman when he was onlyfour years old.
His mother was Catholic in themost militant way and he
remembers living in fear thatsimple mistakes would send him
(03:52):
to eternal damnation.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
So it sounds like his mom and his dad were really
polar opposite and maybe his momwas like a reaction to his dad.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Yeah, like through her controlling him, she got
that.
I don't know, maybe thatsecurity that she didn't feel
with Chuck's dad, maybe.
Still, they were very close.
They would often stay up latetalking at night.
But when Chuck was 12, hismother remarried.
(04:24):
It really put a wedge betweenhim and his mom because he did
not like his stepfather, who hethought was proper and
capitalistic.
He enrolled in Notre Dame butnever finished.
Chuck became an alcoholic.
He bounced from job to job,marriage to marriage.
When he hit 40, he decided timeto make a life change.
(04:47):
So he packed up and headed westto California.
There he discovered AlcoholicsAnonymous.
He got better and becameheavily involved in the
community.
Before we go forward, I need togive you a picture of what
Chuck looked like.
He was an intimidating presence.
He was a big man with a boomingvoice and he didn't exactly
(05:09):
have a stable personality.
One Synanon member put it wellyou kind of don't know who's
showing up, the jovial,charismatic guy or the angry
bully.
He was always wearing khakipants and a short-sleeved collar
shirt, which I think is a veryinteresting choice of clothing.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
I know, and also just noting too, guys, we'll post a
picture or two on Instagram soyou can picture him.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
What was most striking about his appearance
was that complications frommeningitis left half of his face
drooping.
He was a sight to behold, Tosay the least.
Chuck eventually broke awayfrom AA when he became
interested in using itsteachings to help drug addicts.
He also wanted to break freefrom its religious foundation,
(05:59):
teaching people to beself-reliant, responsible for
their own actions and kickingtheir addiction not through a
dependence on any higher power.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
And I wonder too if part of this was a reaction to
his mom's extreme teachings.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Yeah, I kind of thought the same thing.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
He was also reading a lot of philosophy, not clear
exactly how it ultimately gotfiltered through his head.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Lot of philosophy, not clear exactly how it
ultimately got filtered throughhis head.
It starts with Chuck meetingwith a few others from his AA
group.
Eventually the group expandedinto include individuals
addicted to heroin.
They grow into kind of a smallcommunity in Venice, california.
They grow out of that space andmove into a three-floor
abandoned armory on a beach inSanta Monica.
(06:46):
Along the way, they renamedthemselves Synanon.
The exact origin of the word isnot clear, but it was probably
a mashup of the words symposiumand seminar, which was what
Chakthadi was doing as he wasconducting this treatment.
Symposium, seminar soundspretty tame, right.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Yeah, it does sound tame.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Fairly altruistic.
Okay, we'll talk about thissoon, though.
Chuck had a famous quote Todayis the first day of the rest of
your life, and that's exactlywhat he intended for the
individuals who signed up forthe Synanon program.
It was no joke.
You had to commit to two yearsliving at Synanon facilities
following a very strict program.
(07:35):
To start, people would have tostay in a public room until
their painful drug withdrawalphase was complete no medicine
or anything.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
And just remembering from that experience as a
researcher for the Adam Project,I cannot imagine a room full of
people going through that.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Oh my gosh, it must have been just complete misery,
right?
You would have people in thisgroup setting puking in buckets.
It was really very intense.
Once withdrawal is complete,you get household assignments
cooking, cleaning and otherthings around the house.
There is a consistent emphasison strict discipline, group
(08:17):
therapy, peer support andmentoring.
It's basically run like acommune All your clothes, food,
everything taken care ofcollectively by the group.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
And this is where I think it sounds great and
innovative, because, remember,the alternative was you're
getting hospitalized or you'regoing to jail.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Committed.
Yeah, I feel like everythingstarts out really great always
and there's like it soundsreally nice, it sounds like
things are running efficiently.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Well, synanon never started out great, but we're
going to talk about the aspectthat's not great in a moment
here.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Yes, To pay for all of this.
There is a thousand dollar feecharged, but often people can't
afford it and it's waived.
To finance this, they do what'scalled hustling Literally, the
people in recovery would go outinto the community and ask for
donations, everything from foodto Christmas trees.
Chuck, as the leader, comparedmanaging Synanon to running a
(09:23):
large corporation like Gulf Oil,where he had worked.
At one point, chuck claimedthat 80% of addicts stay clean
after Synanon, which isphenomenal.
What's also phenomenal is agroup of ex-heroin addicts with
no leadership experience doingsuch a great job running this
whole operation.
It's very smooth.
(09:44):
Doing such a great job runningthis whole operation it's very
smooth.
Also really amazing is thatSanta Monica and Los Angeles in
general are still raciallysegregated.
Through the 1960s, the SantaMonica beach, where Synanon was
headquartered, was segregated.
In Synanon, though, there wasno segregation and people were
not judged by the color of theirskin.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
So Synanon is getting noticed.
It's getting written up inpublications like Life Magazine,
the Los Angeles Times, the NewYork Times.
Prominent political leaderslike Senator Dodd and civil
rights activists such as CesarChavez are singing its praises.
When Chuck gets arrested fortreating drug addicts without a
(10:24):
license because he doesn't havean official background in this,
california Governor Ed Brownsigned a bill exempting the
group from health licensing law.
The armed forces areconsidering placing
drug-addicted soldiers inSynanon.
Abraham Maslow, as I mentionedin the beginning, one of the
most consequential psychologistsin the 20th century, is really
(10:47):
complimentary of Synanonthroughout much of the sixties.
I'm going to quickly go overhis model.
In the background it might feellike we're taking a little bit
of a tangent, but it's so.
You can truly feel the gravityof what's being praised here and
who is doing the praising.
To give you a sense of thestate of what therapy could look
like, abraham Maslow is bestknown for Maslow's hierarchy of
(11:12):
needs.
In college it's covered inpsychology and leadership
classes, among others, and whenyou learn it for the first time,
usually people light up becauseit just really resonates.
Maslow is, I envisioned, humanneeds as a pyramid with the most
basic physiological needs atthe bottom, things like food,
(11:35):
water, shelter make sense.
As you climb the pyramid, youthen encounter safety needs.
Then you can start to thinkabout things like love and
belonging, followed by esteem,and at the very top sits
self-actualization, the need tofulfill one's full potential.
I remember learning about this.
(11:55):
Most people do.
It's one of those like just,it's so simple when you think
about it.
According to Rod Janssen's bookthe Rise and Fall of Synanon, a
California Utopia, maslow cameto the conclusion after visiting
the commune in the 1960sSynanon members were the most
self-actualized group he hadever met.
Maslow would later encourageone of his students to take up
(12:20):
residence here and study Synanon.
In a 1968 letter to the Synanonleader, reed Kimball, he states
quote it seems to me thatSynanon is now the only
functioning total utopia orEuseikian subculture in the
United States.
Euseikia is, by the way, aspecial term to describe the
(12:41):
best possible human society, andI don't know if that's exactly
how you pronounce it and I don'tcare because it's academic
hogwash, but we'll get there.
Maslow is particularly impressedby the cornerstone of Sinanon's
approach to treating drugaddiction.
It's called the game.
This is a group therapytechnique.
(13:03):
Everyone sits around in acircle and takes turns, honing
in on each other's challenge, inon each other's challenge.
From Rod Jansen's book, hedescribes it as a place where
quote individual beliefs andpractices were energetically
debated and where new ideas weretested and discussed.
If you watch the documentarythe Synanon Fix, you're going to
(13:24):
hear former Synanon membersrave about how the game helped
them.
They miss it.
It was just such a wonderfulexperience.
April, would you like to hear afew quotes of the typical
things that people say to eachother in these sessions of the
game?
Absolutely.
I'm kind of intrigued, youthought that it was your job to
(13:48):
be a martyr.
That is a lie, because you aresuch an affected fool.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
You are such a phony bitch.
How is this helpful?
You are a minimum dailymotherfucker.
You are going to grow up, youold asshole.
And it's super easy for us tolaugh now because we are not
(14:20):
sitting in these sessions at anincredibly vulnerable time in
life or just ever, when you'regoing for therapy and you're
being attacked this way.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
I think the motherfucker one is my favorite.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Oh, not if you're in the hot seat, though.
Oh my gosh, what was the?
Speaker 2 (14:39):
point of these.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Well, first I'll just say that's not a great
representation of what actuallyhappened, because they weren't
just saying those things, april,they were screaming them
happened because they weren'tjust saying those things, april,
they were screaming them.
What, yes, like?
Think of just the angriestperson you've heard If you watch
the Synanon fix.
A lot of these quotes came fromthat.
It's just people yelling andscreaming at each other.
(15:03):
I'm not going to scream becauseI have kids in the other room,
thankfully my child, who issitting here for most of the
beginning for the conference isnot here.
So I'm not going to screambecause I don't want my kids to
hear that in the other room.
But by the way, speaking ofkids, they started playing the
game with kids as young as three.
(15:23):
There was one quote from Chuckthat was so racist.
I refuse to repeat it here, butjust to give you a sense of
like, there was nothing offlimits to be said, even in a
society that claimed to not beracist.
Maslow thought that though.
Maslow, getting back to him, hethought that well, if you air
(15:46):
your verbal aggression, thenyou're less likely to be
physically violent because yougot it out of your system.
This makes me so angry and sosad.
When he constructed his pyramidand he put safety second in
terms of basic needs, he clearlydid not mean psychological
safety, because words can'tpossibly traumatize you for the
(16:08):
rest of your life.
That never dawned on him, whichis why the vast majority of
people who played the game inthe least disliked it or were
traumatized by it for the restof their life.
Chuck used this technique ofattack therapy because he
believed people emerged changedand accountable.
In his pamphlet ChuckDiedrich's 12 Favorite Gaming
(16:32):
Techniques, he outlinespractices that include ridicule,
and he suggested starting gameswith questions like the most
boring person in this circle isyou fill in the blank.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
That's kind of messed up.
I don't.
I guess I don't see how thistechnique was supposed to work.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
And the most boring person in the circle.
Okay, I do not understand howthat relates at all to drug
addiction and how it relates toanything ever.
It's just cruel.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
It's almost better to be the most boring person,
because then you're the one thathas the fewest issues that you
got to work out Like you're justchill.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
You're just hanging out, and if you're the most
boring person, you're probablynot yelling and screaming at
everybody else in the group.
Yeah, but Chuck Hefton.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
I'd be pretty boring in that circle.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
I think being boring means you're sane.
He has one basic rule though nophysical violence.
What really happens, asreporter and author Maya
Cezalovitz explains in thedocumentary the Program?
Humiliation and emotionalattacks knock people off balance
, and groups like Synanon usethat to get compliance and to
(17:45):
get people to adopt theirideology.
Oh okay, another great quotefrom this documentary from John
Jalalik, a leading coal expert.
She says quote they're tearingapart your self-esteem and
tearing apart your trust inyourself and eventually tearing
apart yourself.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
That makes more sense .
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Exactly, and it's so obvious to us now, and I don't
even honestly know back then,even when so little was talked
about in terms of mental healthor therapy, how anyone could sit
in that and not understand.
This is completely messed up.
The games were played severaltimes a week.
(18:33):
They would go on for a fewhours.
Eventually they would run allday with people rotating in and
out, and they would eventuallybe broadcast on their own radio
station, the Wire, and Chuckwasn't on there talking, and
then they played some otherthings too.
I have to note here too thatthere's never an experienced
therapist sitting in any ofthese circles.
(18:54):
Former Synanon member MikeGible observed quote whoever had
a loud voice would play thegame better.
Because they were.
There were a lot of people thatwere terrified.
We never say a word becausethey were scared.
The group pressure, whether itwas to support or go against it,
was very powerful, but all thetime, whether it was in the game
or out of the game, everyonesaid if you leave here, you're
(19:17):
going to die.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
That is a lot of pressure.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
There is another key component of drug addiction
treatment at Synanon, while inAA, chuck also participated in
an experiment at UCLA to see ifLSD could cure alcoholism.
His experience was so profoundhe said he emerged a different
person After crying for threedays and intense feelings of
love and omnipotence, amongothers.
(19:43):
He was a changed man.
Chuck wanted Synanon members toalso have the same
transformative peak experience,but without the LSD.
He eventually came up with thetrip.
First on your trip, itineraryhours of the game where you all
get a term being told what ahorrible human being you are and
why.
Then you are laid out in a bigroom and put into an alpha state
(20:08):
with a big group of people.
You're not allowed to sleep.
For three days you will dothings like play the Ouija board
To channel group consciousness.
No, some members communicatedwith Moses, thomas Aquinas
witches, which is actually kindof cool, I will admit.
(20:29):
At the end you join a big partywith everyone in white robes
where you feel transformed orprobably just severely tired,
hungry and dysregulated.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Did Moses, thomas Aquinas or none of the witches
tell them get out?
I guess not.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
I have a feeling at that point, if they did, they
would not admit it.
This whole radical.
Transparency was great, unlessyou were questioning Synanon.
Well, not so much in thebeginning, but it definitely
evolved that way and three dayswith no sleep oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Sleep is so important to your brain.
It cannot function for threedays, 72 hours.
Yeah, that is terrible.
Then you end up taking, likeyour brain takes, like micro
naps.
It'll like shut itself off, ohmy gosh.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Exactly so I I don't know how anyone could ever think
this is a good idea, but theydid.
Now, well, attack therapy andthe trip have some obvious
issues and open up people forabuse.
It's not dissuading Synanonfrom growing to people who are
not addicted to anything, peoplethat just like the community
(21:50):
and want to live in the commune.
They learned about Synanon notjust from the news, but also by
coming to their Saturday nightparties.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Why do all of the cults always have parties?
I feel like they always havethese big lavish parties?
Well, because Mark Vicente yougot to attract that positive
attention somehow.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Well, mark Vicente, he was a former NXIVM cult
member.
He had this quote it was sogood it was and I shared this on
the Source Family.
Nobody joins a cult, they joina good thing.
If there were never parties orreally amazing aspects of this,
nobody would ever be there andthere would be no cult.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
I guess, that's true.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
That's how they I mean, that's how people idealize
and stay and join in the firstplace.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Well, to drive awareness and membership,
synanon was having those hugeparties every Saturday night,
complete with jazz bands anddancing.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Oh, by the way, you could see, by the way, synanon
even had its own Synanon dance,true story.
Oh, they did.
I won't.
I'll pass.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
I wonder what it was.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Oh my gosh, you like shake your arms and legs and
it's not like a choreographed, Idon't know.
You know like the whole thingis just nonsense, but go on like
dancing, like um.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
what's her name on Seinfeld?
Oh I.
Who's Julia Louis-Dreyfus's?
Oh God.
You could see celebrities suchas Jane Fonda, charlton Heston,
lucille Ball hanging out atSynanon.
Leonard Nimoy, who played DrSpock on Star Trek, started
teaching an acting class theretoo.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Well, you know April when the celebrities show up.
Now it's legitimate.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
It must be good Must be good.
But, you know, none of themstayed.
So what the non-heroine addictsor squares as Chuck called them
saw in Synanon was anenlightened community.
Surprisingly, despite thecombative nature of the game,
people from all differentbackgrounds were getting along
(24:01):
really well Now, this justreally amazes me.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
I don't understand how people can come out of those
sessions and not have at leastsome hard feelings.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Yeah, or like irritation or anger towards
someone I don't know.
I don't think I could do it.
I would probably be mad atpeople for a while.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yes, you would rightfully have that very human
emotion of being mad, as youshould be.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
And then you'd have this like stress response and
anger and defensiveness.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
I think I just I don't.
I don't understand how they didit, but they did.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
There is also a general undercurrent of distrust
in government from the VietnamWar and the Watergate scandal
and an openness to experimentwith different social
arrangements.
During that Right Right, chucksaid dope fiends the original
synonym members had nine fingersand he wanted to surround
(24:59):
himself with people who had tenfingers the squares.
He allowed them to move.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Sorry.
I'm sure they felt amazingabout themselves after hearing
that.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I know, come on, he allowed them to move into the
community starting in themid-1960s.
It also did not hurt that theyhad money and resources to give
to Sinanon.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
I suspect, the real reason for the change.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Hmm, with more squares moving in, sinanon had
to house and educate theirchildren too.
They opened up a private school, which meant they had wide
latitude to do whatever theywanted.
Some of the teaching styles andcurriculum were innovative,
almost like a Montessori school,and some were just nonsense.
(25:47):
Regardless, it was challengingall the time because Chuck
wanted to experiment and theresult was a very uneven
educational experience For thefirst few years that Synanon
accepted kids.
Many said later in life thatthey loved it.
They were never lonely and theyconstantly had activities to
(26:07):
occupy their time.
And living on the beach wasamazing Like what kid wouldn't
like that?
But their lives were far fromconventional.
Chuck believed that it wasbetter for kids' brains to be
placed separately from theirparents.
With no degree, by the way.
Right, he's an expert orresearch or education, right,
(26:29):
okay?
Speaker 1 (26:31):
He's read a lot of Emerson and Thoreau and he's got
Maslow's blessing.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
And they know all about the brain Right.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
As do the celebrities that are coming all the time.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Yes, child development Starting at six
months, babies were separatedfrom their mothers and grew up
in the hatchery.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
Okay, I have to pause here because, speaking of
utopia, which is what Maslow wastalking about, with the society
, that reminds me of Brave NewWorld, where they called it the
hatchery where the kids were,which was a dystopian novel.
I do not understand this, butkeep going.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Parents could visit their children there, but under
the condition of communalparenting.
All of the parents are thekids' parents, not just the ones
that they were born to.
In 1969, chuck decides therewill be no more graduation for
former heroin addicts.
That cure rate of 80% that heonce claimed, he now says that
(27:39):
anyone who lives outside of thecommunity will relapse and die.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Oh, so now they have to live there permanently?
That sounds like a cult.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
The reality is, many did relapse after leaving the
Synanon program and there is alarge and continuous defection
rate throughout the two-yearprogram.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
I'm pretty sure they did not mention that to the
reporters.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Probably not, or any of the celebrities we will never
really know who truly stayedclean during and after the
program, because Synanon neverdid drug tests, despite the fact
that they would have receivedhundreds of thousands of dollars
in government funding if theyhad.
To me that makes me a littlebit skeptical.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
To me that says it all.
So, yes, yeah, let's recap.
We are 11 years into thisorganization that started as
Tender Loving Care.
Actually, synanon is not amiracle on the beach.
Synanon can't permanently treatheroin addicts, if at all.
By this point, most ofSynanon's members are not even
former addicts, they just wantto live in this commune.
(28:42):
Synanon has sharply pivotedaway from its original mission
of addiction treatment.
This is no longer the sameorganization, but it's still run
by the same Chuck, and the samecornerstone to this community
is still the game, which meansall of the building blocks are
in place for Synanon's eventualevolution into a violent cult,
(29:05):
and that will happen over thenext decade.
And with that we're going tostop here and continue with that
story next week in part two.
Speaker 2 (29:15):
Thank you so much for joining.
You can follow us on socialmedia under the name dark city
pod on Instagram, facebook andthreads.
Also, to continue to grow ouraudience, we would love it If
you could share dark city withanyone you think might enjoy it.
Until next time, bye, thank you.
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