February 17, 2025 • 39 mins
Los Angeles, CA | How does a cafeteria owner in 1930s Los Angeles, dedicated to providing affordable meals for all, become the driving force behind exposing and dismantling corruption? Today we are joined by Robert Petersen, host of the podcast The Hidden History of Los Angeles, to talk about Clifford Clinton—a man who took on the city’s power structure and won, but whose own personal life tells a far more complicated story.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
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Speaker 1 (00:52):
How does a cafeteria owner in the 1930s, dedicated to
providing affordable meals forall, become the driving force
behind exposing and dismantlingcorruption in the city of Los
Angeles?
Today, we're talking aboutClifford Clinton, a man who took
in the city of Los Angeles.
Today, we're talking aboutClifford Clinton, a man who took
on the city's power structureand won, but whose own personal
life tells a far morecomplicated story.
(01:12):
This is Dark City Season 1, losAngeles.
Today.
I am joined by Robert Peterson,the host of the podcast the
Hidden History of Los Angeles.
Before we explore CliffordClinton's story, robert, can you
tell our audience more aboutyourself and how you decided to
(01:34):
start your podcast?
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Well, thank you so much for having me on.
It's a pleasure to be here andtalk about Clifford Clinton, one
of my favorite characters in LAhistory.
For me, both my parents grew upin LA.
My dad grew up just west ofdowntown and my mom grew up in
Pasadena and Altadena and mygrandparents came here in the
20s and 30s.
So all my life I've heardhistories from LA's past,
(01:59):
hearing about my grandmothertake the Pico streetcar to
Bullocks, wilshire, with her andhave tea with her gloves and
how she dress up, and my dadtalking about going to Hollywood
Stars games over at GilmoreField where the Grove and
Farmer's Market are now.
And then in college I startedgetting a little bit more
serious into LA history readingeverything that was out there,
(02:21):
of course, mike Davis andFragmented Metropolis.
I wrote my thesis in collegecomparing different
neighborhoods in LA.
I was obsessed in college withthis idea of why neighborhoods
look the way they do like, whymy neighborhood in Pasadena
looks this way and is sodifferent than Arcadia and
Sierra Madre and La Cunada.
What makes the neighborhoodlook this way.
And I compared differentneighborhoods throughout LA and
(02:43):
in doing that kind of becameobsessed with LA history.
And that obsession continuedand finally started listening to
podcasts.
Uh, 10 years or so I was like,oh, I'll give this a try, not
knowing anything about podcasts,not knowing anything about
really any of this, just on awhim.
It became a kind of passionproject and it just has
continued as a passion project.
(03:03):
I've been doing it for about 10years, have 80, 90 episodes and
hopefully we'll continue doingit.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
That's awesome.
I actually think we couldprobably bring you on just to
talk about the different LAneighborhoods, because I've
always kind of wondered that too.
That's also really fascinating.
And you know, I didn't givethis background up front, but
the way we met was we justhappened to be.
It was your child's birthdayparty.
(03:31):
A mutual friend had said hey,Leah, you actually cited his
podcast and then you startedtalking, because I didn't make
the connection of the namebecause it'd been so long.
It was the lover in the atticepisode, because you did a
really good episode on it too,and as soon as you started
talking I recognized your voice.
So it's just a very very smallworld.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
I love that.
No, it is a small world.
I especially feel like in theSan Gabriel Valley.
It is a very, very small world.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
When I started researching Clifford Clinton,
one of the things I found was anarticle that you published on
him on PBS SoCal in 2015.
You went pretty deep into thearchives to document his fight
against corruption, from thehospital investigation through
to the bombing of his home and,eventually, the removal the
first time a mayor from a UScity was removed.
(04:14):
How did you decide to researchand share his story?
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Well, first, I've always loved Clifton's Cafeteria
, before it closed in 2011,.
When it originally closed, itwas this really unique, fun
place.
I'm also side note I lovecafeterias and buffets.
I don't know why, I do too.
Bring them back Something aboutit.
And Clifford Clinton is a namethat kind of pops up when you're
(04:40):
studying LA history.
He pops up in all thesedifferent parts, some of the
corruption, food culture, andI'd known about the name, but I
didn't know that much about him,and I heard that I think it was
somewhere around the timebefore Clifton's reopened in
2015.
That is, I think, what kind ofspurred me to want to do an
(05:00):
article about it, and there werea lot of mentions of him in
different books.
I think I looked up somenewspapers, but for me it was
really helpful to go to UCLAspecial collections.
There has an archive onClifford Clinton, and that was
just the best experience ever.
I spent two days over therejust going through his papers
(05:21):
and really digging, you know,deep into trying to figure a
little bit about him, and it wasjust, I must admit, one of my
favorite experiences in thepodcast, because you read about
someone, you read about them inthe newspaper, but there's
something very different andwhen you're reading his
handwritten like that, that wasjust such a special experience.
And then also some of thethings he wrote in the little
(05:44):
newsletters from the restaurantwere really interesting.
So after doing that, and then,you know, submitted it to I
think was KCET at the time andthey put it up and it was
actually great because becauseof that article I got to go to
the grand reopening of Clifton'sin 2015.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Oh nice.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
With disgraced council member Jose Huizar was
there, of course, but it wasreally fun and it was great and
I loved it.
When Clifton's reopened I wentthere I worked pretty close to
there, so it was a great spotand I was bummed when they
closed the cafeteria again.
Hopefully one day they'llreopen it.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Well, you know, actually.
So they.
I don't know if the cafeteriais open, but the club part, or I
think it's they call it anightclub.
It's pretty cool, just likegive people like a visual
because it's such an interestingplace.
I think everyone should visitit, not just because there's
good history, but it has like agiant fake sequoia that runs all
the way from the floor, thebottom floor, all the way up to
(06:40):
the.
I guess be like the top floor.
Every floor has a theme, Likethe way up to the.
I guess be like the top floorand every floor has a theme,
like there's a tiki bar themebecause it used to be a Hawaiian
restaurant, or one of hislocations was there is a Gothic
themed Thor, which was myfavorite.
You have like a DJ playing froma pulpit and you can get a shot
reading with a tarot card.
It's just a really cool, uniqueplace.
(07:01):
But it's also an old place, soit was shut down, I think, for a
while, because they hadplumbing issues or it was like
some major infrastructure issues.
You can catch it when it isopen.
It's good to do.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Yeah, I hope to.
I've seen pictures.
I know they opened up.
I think they have like bars andclubs, upper floors and I guess
maybe the basement too, andI've seen pictures.
It looks great and I love howthe owner what is his name,
andrew Marin I might bemispronouncing his name really
kept a lot of the soul ofBrookdale the giant Sequoia like
you're in a redwood forest, andthen recreating some of his
(07:35):
other restaurant Pacific Seas, Ithink in one of the bars it's
like a South Pacific kind ofisland, tropical island paradise
kind of vibe.
I've only seen pictures butunfortunately, as you know, with
kids my ability to go out atnight has been limited greatly.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
So at some point.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
I'm hoping to see the newly renovated Clifton's.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Well, going back to his first cafeteria in downtown
Los Angeles, so that was also ahead turner.
Can you talk a little bit abouthow it was designed and what it
was like dining there?
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Yes, so his first cafeteria and it was Clifton's
Pacific Seas on Hill Streetpretty close to Pershing Square.
It's actually a vacant lotright now the site is but it was
probably the most unusualcafeteria of its time, or
restaurant really.
It was designed as like atropical island paradise.
They had a waterfall, palmtrees, bamboo all these items
(08:27):
imported from Hawaii, hawaiianmusic playing and just such an
experience to be walking indowntown Los Angeles and then
you take a turn into Clifton'sPacific Seas and you step into a
tropical paradise.
Of course they're servingmeatloaf and moderately priced
cafeteria food.
I never was there it was beforemy time but from everything
(08:48):
I've read about it and peopletalking about their experiences
there, it was just the mostunique, memorable experience to
eat there.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
I think I read too.
They had a signature greenjello with whipped cream and
just interesting stuff they did,like the jello.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Jello was always a theme.
They always had jello.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Do people really serve jello?
Anymore, I feel like that'ssomething that kind of went out
of style.
I think so I'm a fan.
Bring that back too.
He opened up his cafeteria in1931, that smack dab right in
the middle of the.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Great Depression.
Why did he do that and how didit survive?
Well, I think a couple thingsto note.
First is that Clinton's parentsran restaurants.
So he grew up in the I don'tknow the quote, unquote
restaurant business, so he wasfamiliar with how that worked.
But I think, even moreimportantly, he really had this
passion to feed people feedpeople who maybe didn't have
means to feed themselves.
And a lot of that people saycomes from his childhood.
(09:45):
He spent a great deal of histime, before he was 11 or 12, in
China.
His parents were alsomissionaries and there he
experienced some of the falloutfrom the Boxer Rebellion and saw
a lot of starvation, had a lotof experiences that really
instilled in him this desire toaddress hunger, starvation,
(10:05):
feeding people, and that'ssomething we saw throughout his
career when he was runningcafeterias and also later in his
life when he actually turnedhis sights on world hunger.
But I think that was reallywhat caused him to really start
a cafeteria.
And then, in terms of makinghow that worked as an economic
(10:26):
model is interesting because,you know, cafeterias and
restaurants are notoriouslydifficult to stay in business,
but he really, you know, cateredto the public and the needs at
the time I mean in the middle ofthe Great Depression he offered
customers a full meal of soup,salad, bread, jello, coffee, all
for a nickel, and then, whenthat became difficult, he would
(10:48):
offer just basic vegetable soupover brown rice for a penny.
He really catered to the needsof folks who were hurting.
And then, of course, he had thevery famous policy that was
written on every receipt paywhat you can or don't pay at all
.
I'm butchering it, butbasically, if you didn't have
the money, you know, you didn'thave to pay, and I don't know
(11:08):
how that makes economic sensefor a business owner, but it did
for him, because people keptcoming back and people loved his
establishments and he actually,throughout his life, became
very, very wealthy based on hiscafeterias.
But I think it's he knew therestaurant business, he knew his
clientele and he knew therestaurant business.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
He knew his clientele and he knew the needs of the
people at the time.
I also read too that when I wassitting down it was the Penny
Cafeteria where they did thevegetable soup on rice.
They sold like a million ofthose, which is incredible when
you think of.
In the end I also read.
So I think the policy did work.
They struggled financially timeto time, but he always
(11:45):
approached it as a problem tosolve.
There was one individual thatrefused to pay that could, and
eventually they had to call thepolice and he got arrested for
trying to defraud the restaurant.
This is so terrible.
And then when he got out heparked his car in front and had
signs slandering the restaurant.
That is so terrible.
I think for the most partpeople were good and they
(12:07):
respected it, but you've alwaysgot like that.
One crazy story.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Definitely.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Now your article also mentioned there was a pivotal
moment when Clinton took apublic stand for racial
integration in his restaurants.
So the guest voice leafletswhich you looked at when you
were researching for yourarticle, there was an exchange
where he had responded to acustomer who objected to dining
with black patrons.
Can you tell us about hisresponse and what it meant for
(12:34):
Los Angeles at that time?
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Well, so this was 1944.
You know there was a lot of JimCrow in Los Angeles
establishments, and not just incommercial spaces but in
residential.
He had restrictive covenants,so Los Angeles was a deeply
segregated city and then Clintonmade sure that his
establishments people of alltypes, all races, colors, creeds
(12:59):
, could eat there and dinetogether.
And it's interesting I think itreads as a pivotal movement
because he was taking a stand, amoral stand, against something
that threatened his business andhis livelihood.
But that was also just Clinton.
He did that throughout hiscareer.
He had this kind of compass ofwhat he believed and he just
(13:20):
kept going there and sufferednegative consequences throughout
.
But I think it's actuallyhelpful.
I know it might take a second,but I did pull it up.
I can actually read, if youdon't mind, the comment and then
his response, because I thinkit does really provide insight
into Clinton's ideas.
So the person commented andagain this was I forgot what it
(13:41):
was called the guest voice.
It was basically patrons ofClifton's cafeterias could make
comments, sometimes good,sometimes bad, and then Clinton
himself would actually write inthe response, and sometimes
there'd be back and forth.
It's really interesting.
So the customer wrote I'vealways liked Clifton's, but
yesterday while having lunch,two Negroes came and sat at my
(14:03):
table.
After that the food tasted likesawdust.
I like the Negro people, but Irefuse to eat or sleep with them
.
I will hereafter go somewhereelse.
They do not have Negroes.
Watch out, clifton's, that yourplace does not become dot dot,
dot.
Now, my apologies, I know theword yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
It's so terrible to think about.
But also we've got to recountjust to capture what it was like
back then.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
And I think it does.
I mean that was a sentimentthat was not a marginalized
sentiment, that was a sentimentthat a lot of people held at the
time.
So, Clifton, he wrote a verythorough response and this is
what Clinton's response was.
Clinton's response wasDemocracy brings many people
together who may not enjoyclosed social contacts.
It is for us to weigh thebenefits of democracy against
(14:50):
this alternative in which amajority class or master race
could outlaw minorities.
So far, a few nations havechosen the undemocratic way of
life.
We are at war with thosenations and there is no
discrimination as to the racesamong those who are offering
their lives for our Americanrights and freedom To promote
peace, justice, order andharmony.
(15:11):
Our laws and constitution makeit unlawful to discriminate.
We are left with two choices wecan obey the letter and spirit
of the law, which we believealso expresses the Christian
solution of our problems, or wecan violate the law in the
Christian conscious of ourrepublic.
Frankly, we know of only oneline of conduct consistent with
our conscious and our obligationas a citizen it is our duty to
(15:34):
serve all who enter our doorsand conduct themselves within
their legal rights.
If the ruin so often predictedis around the corner, then we
prefer to be ruined doingbusiness in accordance with our
obligations as a citizen.
This is our policy.
We survive or perish, accordingto which point of view has
greatest appeal to the people.
Somehow we have faith in thepeople.
(15:56):
I know that's a little bit longand long-winded, but I think it
actually really is a sentimentyou hear throughout Clinton's
life, whether it's corruption,whether he really believed he
had this civic duty.
That was grounded in partbecause of his kind of Christian
consciences.
But it was basically this idea,this moral imperative to try to
(16:19):
do right in society and haveyou perform your civic
obligations.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
I think that's so great too, that he published the
comment and he published thespot.
It's one thing to just take thecomment, but it's quite another
to put your neck out there,which he did quite a lot.
That is a good segue to.
So how does one go from runningcafeterias to taking on the
whole entire corrupt powerstructure of Los Angeles?
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Yeah, this is where the story gets even more
interesting.
So in 1935, a county board ofsupervisor asked Clinton to
inspect food operations at theCounty General Hospital and
Clinton did his owninvestigation and discovered
waste and corruption that wascosting the county something
like $200,000 a year.
So that kind of got him startedin this process of looking at
(17:08):
corruption within localgovernment and Clinton got
himself appointed to the countygrand jury and then pushed the
grand jury to investigate viceconditions in LA.
Now there were people on thegrand jury who did not want to
do that.
Now there were people on theground jury who did not want to
(17:35):
do that.
They were associates and orreceiving money from crime
bosses and or corrupt politicalofficials.
So then Clinton started his owngroup called the Citizen and
Independent Vice InvestigatingCommittee, or CIVIC, found
hundreds of brothels, hundredsof gambling houses, bookie
joints and slot machines.
That was a big thing, thousandsof slot machines in the city
and the grand jury refused tomake that public.
So Clinton then produced hisown minority grand jury report
and in it he really went afterthe power structure and he
(17:57):
basically said look in County,the district attorney, the
sheriff, the chief of police,the mayor's office, they're
working in quote in completeharmony and never interfere with
the activities of the crimebosses or the criminal
underground in LA.
And that I mean I thinknewspapers would kind of comment
(18:17):
upon corruption.
But I think Clinton in thisreport really put into picture,
hey, how widespread corruptionwas in LA.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
It's incredible, and I also imagine too, a lot of
people were afraid to speak up,because when you have it in
literally every single facet ofwhat should be the structure and
function of a lawful city, theretaliation is really dangerous.
When I was reading this part,it kind of reminded me did you
ever watch Game of Thrones?
Speaker 3 (18:47):
I did not.
I have missed it.
Oh my gosh, it's so angry at me.
She's not angry at me, but shecan't believe that I've never
watched it.
But yes, I'm glad I'm not.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Okay, well, I got to draw this analogy because I
think most of our listeners have.
I cannot believe you've notwatched it.
The last few seasons aredisappointing, I will warn you,
but it's worth it.
So there's this character, nedStark.
He's the core character inseason one and a lot goes on
with him.
So he is serving as the hand ofthe king, so that's basically
(19:15):
like your chief of staff and hefinds out that the king's
supposed legitimate heir,joffrey, is actually not
legitimate.
In fact, his wife was having anaffair with her brother and so,
instead of building support orwaiting for his army to arrive
from the north, he trusted honorand proper procedure.
And he even had this greatscene where, when Robert died,
(19:37):
he presented this finaldeclaration that Ned would be
the protector of the realm.
And Cersei, the queen, justtook it and ripped it up and was
like what's this?
A piece of paper?
That kind of reminds me ofClifford at this time, where
it's like you don't necessarilyhave all the alliances and
everything backed up and thesepeople don't care.
You're really going after verydeeply entrenched power
structures and people who don'thave a moral compass With that
(19:59):
said one, watch the show.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
I will watch the show and you're right to bring up
the scope of the corruption inLA.
That's something I think peoplewe hear about corruption and
there is definitely problemswith corruption, as we've seen
with some of our council membersAlways.
But the scope of the corruption, especially in the 30s, early
30s, was intense.
I mean, we're talking about themayor.
The mayor appointed his brotheras like and then his brother
was handing out civil serviceassignments and jobs for bribes.
(20:28):
The police chief, the districtattorney, the person that's
supposed to be the highest lawenforcement person in the county
to go after bad behavior andmisconduct and crime.
He's on the take.
But really bribery corruptionwas a way of.
That's a little joke that Ialways think of I know a lot of
people love to talk about.
Oh, the tunnels underneathdowntown were all bootlegging
(20:50):
tunnels.
There may be a couple, but thetruth is they didn't need
bootlegging tunnels because LAPDwas complicit in the criminal
activities of bootlegging.
So there may be a few, butthere was no need for an
elaborate maze of tunnelsunderneath LA because the LAPD
was part of it.
They were complicit.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Yeah, I remember reading the reports of like he
had information or would seelike police would just walk past
it could be a brothel or likeblatant illegal things happening
on the street and nobody wouldstop.
So when Clifford called thisall out, it did turn out better
for him than it did for NedStark which you'll find out when
you watch season one but stillit was really bad for him.
(21:32):
There were really bad thingsthat happened.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
So what happened specifically, Clinton's own
establishments as cafeteriaswere suddenly being visited by
city health inspectors and citedfor violations or supposed
violations.
His real estate taxes weremysteriously increased.
He was denied a permit for anew cafeteria.
Suddenly there were slip andfall and food poisoning,
(21:57):
lawsuits being filed against him.
But then it even got violent.
In 1937, a bomb exploded inClifton's home, in his home in
Los Feliz, and luckily Clintonand his family were on the other
side of the home at the timeand were unharmed.
But it was clear that peoplewere willing to kill him to stop
him from his crusade againstvice.
(22:19):
It was interesting what theLAPD's response to the bombing
of Clifford Clinton's home was.
The LAPD said that you know.
They suggested it was apublicity stunt engineered by
Clinton himself.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
So there was no help from law enforcement.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
I mean, they were linked to it and they blamed it
on Clinton.
So he was really on his own inan island battling law
enforcement, city hall, thesheriff's department.
He was really taking oneverybody.
I mean he had allies but hecouldn't go to the normal places
where you would go forprotection.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
That's so terrible.
I didn't know that part abouthow they tried to go back and
say and actually he justmanufactured it, that is dark.
Manufactured it, that is dark.
So he's also known for like hewould keep his door unlocked as
a sign of his generosity andacceptance of other people.
Did he start locking it afterthat time?
Speaker 3 (23:13):
I would hope so.
He had a family?
I would hope so, but it isinteresting to note that his
house is still there and it's abeautiful house.
Oh, interesting.
You drive down, it's onFranklin and Los Feliz, right as
Franklin turns into Western,gorgeous, beautiful house that,
interestingly, was put on themarket a few years back for
about five.
So they published all thesepictures of the inside,
(23:35):
beautiful, beautiful house.
And every time you drive downas Los Feliz turns into Western,
you can see Clifford Clinton'shouse and where the LAPD most
likely planted a bomb to try tokill him.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
There is an ex-police officer named Harry Raymond who
was working with CliffordClinton to feed him information
on what was going on becauseClifford's not backing down.
But then Harry's car was bombed.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
Yeah.
So Harry Raymond is aninteresting character unto
himself.
So let me just say that HarryRaymond is a pretty shady
character.
He was an ex-cop fired by theLAPD.
I think he was fired from acouple other law enforcement
agencies, got it.
But he was doing his owninvestigation, quote unquote,
into corruption in LA and he wassimultaneously feeding some
information to Clinton.
And it also appears he was alsotrying to shake down the Shaw
(24:21):
administration, mayor Frank Shaw, who was the mayor at the time.
So his intentions are a littlebit obscure, but he was feeding
information to Clinton aboutBison delay.
And one day Raymond gets intohis car this happened a couple
of blocks from Roosevelt HighSchool in Boyle Heights and puts
his foot on the pedal.
Boom, car bomb explodes.
(24:43):
Amazingly, raymond survives.
They take him to the hospital.
He's at this hospital bed, he'sgot shrapnel wounds all over
his body and he calls a reporterfrom the Los Angeles examiner
to come.
And.
But Raymond lets it all out andbasically accuses an LAPD
captain named Earl Connett ofplanting the bomb.
And these allegations becamefront page news.
(25:05):
And then it even got crazier,because then, you know, earl
Connett, the captain, is accusedof planting the bomb.
Who does the LAPD assign toinvestigate the bombing Captain
Connett, which is crazy.
And finally he is investigated,finally the da looks into it
probably didn't want to, butfinally was kind of forced to
(25:27):
and uh, connect was put on trialfor and he was.
And they found out during thetrial that you know he purchased
the steel pipe used in thebombing, connected him to the
bombing.
But a lot of more informationcame out during the trial
information about you knowspying and the lpD spying on
prominent Angelenos, on judges,and just a ton of information.
And again, this was front pagenews.
(25:48):
Connett was eventuallyconvicted and sentenced to
prison.
But the big thing was that allthis information came out and I
think it was a sort of turningpoint in public opinion and
really an outing of just thedepth of the corruption in Los
Angeles.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
It's amazing that anything ever well, I don't
think it ever got completelybetter after that there's still
long running issues but it didmake a significant dent.
I mean, what would you say ifyou were to wrap up Clifford
Clinton's effort not backingdown during this period?
What impact did it ultimatelyhave on Los Angeles politics?
A?
Speaker 3 (26:22):
huge impact.
I mean so after after Kinnett'strial and all this information
comes out, clinton and hisallies again.
It wasn't just Clinton alone,but there were several people
involved in kind ofanti-corruption efforts.
They recruited a reform mindedjudge named Fletcher Bowron
Fletcher Bowron Square indowntown LA if you've ever been
(26:43):
by there to run for mayoragainst Frank Shaw and Bowron
wins handily.
And then they put pressure.
They finally get the policechief to resign and I think
Bowron when he gets elected thenhe actually forces a whole
police commission to resign.
Frank Shaw's brother who washanding out civil service jobs
for bribes.
(27:04):
He was convicted for doing soPretty soon after the district
attorney lost his campaign.
So everybody was cleaned outand we're talking this is a
matter of a few years.
I think we're talking maybethree years from when Clinton
first started with the countyhospital investigation to like
the mayor being sacked.
So it had a huge effect on LosAngeles and also in ways that
(27:29):
secondary effects.
Some of the crime bosses left LAbecause LA was no longer the
safe haven for criminal activitythat it once was in corruption.
People like Guy McAfee, who wasa crime boss, who went to Vegas
.
He actually started the GoldenNugget and became very
successful there, but it had ahuge impact in LA.
The LAPD transformed DarylGates, who has many of his own
(27:53):
issues, and Chief Parkertransformed the LAPD Again.
There continue to be problems,but it's unbelievable.
I mean Clifford Clinton, thisrestaurateur, in a few years
managed to clean house and deala huge blow to corruption in LA.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
After Clifford made this headway in this realm,
going back to his experiencerunning cafeterias and being in
the food business, his workdidn't stop there.
Later his work would have animpact on even world hunger.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Sure, I mean it sounds it's almost unbelievable.
But after all of this, Clintonsays you know, I'm going to try
to tackle world hunger.
So he asked a Caltechbiochemist to develop a food
(28:53):
supplement that would provideproper nutritional values at a
very, very cheap rate, like afew cents a meal.
And Clifford Clinton.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
I keep on conflating the two.
Because he did this he mixedthe two with his cafeteria, but
Clinton also.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
then he called it Clifton's.
To make it even morecomplicated, clinton financed
the research and it led to thedevelopment of a multipurpose
food MPF and it's like a highprotein food supplement that can
be made for a few cents a meal.
And then Clinton created Mealsfor Millions, a nonprofit
organization which would go onto provide millions of MPFs
multipurpose foods to people inover 60 countries around the
(29:21):
world.
I think it goes back to thatkind of passion he developed
early in life to feed people, tofeed people in need.
It's something that we reallysaw throughout his life.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Fast forwarding a couple decades later about, if
not around, the time he'sretired.
A couple decades later about,if not around, the time he's
retired.
There's always a twist.
It's never a simple story.
I'm going to go even furtherforward in time before we talk
about this point in Clifford'slife.
It's January 2011, and a mannamed Ray Richmond shows up to
Clifton's cafeteria on Broadwaywith his brother and sister with
(29:56):
a very special box.
They were the ashes of hismother, terry.
Building renovations were wellunderway so, when nobody was
looking, they poured the ashesdown an electrical closet whose
wiring extended down throughoutthe building, basically to
spread her ashes throughout thebuilding, which was probably
illegal, but they believed it'swhat she would have wanted.
And why would she want this?
(30:16):
So when I started researchingClifford because he did all of
these incredible things I didhave this vague memory of an
affair somewhere.
So I started digging and atfirst I thought, okay, maybe
it's not really that bad, maybeit's not that true.
I had this temptation to try tosanitize history.
And then I dug more.
This is not the clean story Iwas expecting In 1958.
(30:39):
So this is now okay.
So fast forwarding a couple ofdecades after at least his
corruption fight.
In 1958, according to RayRichmond and recordings from his
mother, terry, published on aKCRW podcast and cited in a few
other vetted sources, cliffordClinton went to the
chiropractor's office, probablyinnocent, probably was going
through back pain or somethinglike that.
(30:59):
But when he was there it turnedout they had one of those quote
unquote massage therapists inthe back and he went to see her.
And then he kept going to seeher and kept paying her.
This woman, terry Richmond, hadset up shop.
Essentially it was across thestreet from 20th Century Fox
Studios and it was more or lesskind of like that industry.
(31:21):
He was fought brothels that hewas supposed to be fighting.
He's now a regular client.
Now this would become afull-blown affair that would
last for a decade up until whenhe died in 1969.
His grandson even acknowledgedit in his book that he'd read
Ray's article on the affair andhe remembered hearing certain
whispers and hush conversationsgrowing up.
(31:42):
And now it made sense.
We may not know ever the exactdetails, but more or less this
happened and, even worse, hiswife, nelda, it said when she
found out and gave him anultimatum, he tried to commit
suicide and he told her he wouldnever try to do that again, but
as long as she accepted thearrangement, and so they went on
(32:05):
like that.
He stayed married with her andTerry stayed his mistress.
There's even a picture of themon vacation in Hawaii together.
It's just a lot.
It's a lot to digest given,like all the other great stuff
he did.
So you know, knowing that kindof putting all of that in
context with the things he didearlier in life, how do we make
sense of his legacy?
Speaker 3 (32:26):
I've heard that KCRW story too, and I don't know much
about it other than just whatI've heard from the KCRW story.
That's something that I didn'tcome across in my research of
Clinton.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
And that came out after your article too.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
So you know I would say that you know I've never
researched a character who wasnot complicated and was, you
know, not was you know, onedimensional.
So a lot of the figures that welook at in history are pretty
darn complicated and do thingsthat don't seem to necessarily
fit with either their publicpersona or maybe some things
(33:02):
they've done other times intheir lives.
For him it's complicated how toplace that.
We're all kind of speculatinghere because I don't know what
he would have said about it.
But first, to prefaceeverything, it's hard to explain
matters of the heart.
Looking back at Clinton and hiscrusade against public
(33:22):
corruption, from my point ofview it's always been more of
attacking systematic corruptionand not so much being obsessed
with regulating the conduct ofindividuals.
I didn't see him as a moralitypoliceman trying to you know you
guys got to stop sinning andfornicating and you know that
(33:45):
didn't seem to be his, at leastfrom what I've read about him
and looked into.
That wasn't his main purpose.
He wasn't a preacher.
He wasn't AmySimpson-Folk-Mirson trying to
change people's lives in thatway.
He was more interested inrooting out corruption that
hurts society as a whole.
You had a system in LA wherethe government answered to crime
(34:05):
bosses and corrupt politicians,not the people, and that was
something.
But he was guided by a Christianconscience.
That does seem to be at oddswith the way he described being
guided by his Christianconscience, does seem to be at
odds with some of he describedbeing guided by his Christian
conscious.
Does he be at odds with some ofthe behavior later in his life?
It's hard to really knowexactly how he would talk about
(34:28):
it.
Also, something that's possibleis that people's views change.
We're coming on the 60s and thesexual revolution.
People do change their viewsand I don't know if maybe some
of his views may have changedbecause of this relation, maybe
not.
Again, it's all speculation.
It is definitely anotherinteresting chapter, interesting
(34:49):
fold in his life.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Allegedly there were letters.
There were love letters he hadwritten.
I know they were originallylinked, but now that they're not
, it would be so interesting tosee those.
We don't really know what hewould have said.
We only know what Terry saidand what her son said, and then
his grandson later addressed itwhen he wrote a book about
Clifford, but we don't reallyknow his perspective on it too.
It is a lot to digest, though,because people have different
(35:13):
arrangements in theirrelationships, but it's more the
fact of like.
But you said you were fightingbrothels.
You know, broadly speaking Alsotoo, if it's true that he
forced his wife to accept.
I mean, by putting that sort ofburden on someone is yeah, that
sounds.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
In terms of fighting corruption and brothels.
I mean, I could imagine asituation today where someone
who maybe is on a crusadeagainst you know drug cartels.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
Might enjoy recreational drug use themselves
Documented cases of it.
You can also imagine someonetrying to root out criminal
underground gambling but doesn'thave a problem going to Las
Vegas and pulling the slots afew times.
But again there's all kind ofspeculation.
But it's really interestingbecause I wish we could hear
Clinton talk about it.
(35:59):
Because I bet it's reallyinteresting because he was a
very articulate man with verystrongly held beliefs and I
would love to hear what thisrelationship meant to him and if
it changed his maybe views onthings.
Maybe it didn't, I would befascinated.
I wish we could.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
I know, or even just validate, did this actually
happen or did it not?
But that's always the hard part.
I'm sure you probably run intothis over and over again with
your podcast.
But we just don't know thesepeople and they're not alive to
talk about it.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
But I think it's good to.
I think a lot of times inhistory we are afraid.
We put people up on pedestalsand we want to keep them there.
We're afraid if we talk aboutanything negative that will
somehow destroy the legacy, andI hope that people realize that
people are complicated All of usare complicated and it doesn't
(36:53):
destroy someone's legacy just tofind out there's some change or
they changed their mind aboutsomething.
I'm not saying what happenedwith Clinton.
It doesn't take away, at leastin my view, the important work
he did for the people of LA andI think he is one of those
characters that there's a lot ofcharacters and figures in LA
that had an important impact onLA and they did it because they
(37:15):
wanted to be powerful or rich orto gain notoriety.
Clinton is someone who reallydid it because he thought it was
part of his civic duty, and Ithink that's special and I don't
think it's rare to see a figurelike that feel some sort of
civic obligation and civic dutyand put his life on the line to
do it and then to have theeffect that he did he cleaned
(37:37):
house in a few short years.
Of course we still live withcorruption in LA, but it was a
big change in the 30s and the40s to how City Hall and the
city was run.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Well, robert, thank you so much for coming on to
talk about the story.
It's fascinating for a milliondifferent reasons and I will
link your podcast in our shownotes so, for all of you who
don't want to just hear the darkstuff when you listen to us,
head on over to Robert's podcast, because he talks about all of
it.
So, thank you again.
It was a joy to have you on theshow and really appreciate you
(38:11):
coming on.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
Thank you so much for having me on.
It's been an absolute pleasuretalking to you and I really
enjoy your podcast.
So again, thanks so much forhaving me on.
Thank you.
Hi friends, this is Leah and this is April.
Today, it's easier than ever tomake and publish a podcast, but
that also means it's never beenharder to stand out Especially
as an indie podcast weabsolutely love creating Dark
City episodes for you.
So to make sure the show is asuccess, we need your help easy
(00:26):
ways to do it.
Number one rate and review theshow wherever you get your
podcasts.
Number two click that sharebutton and send a link to
friends and family you thinkmight also like the show.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
And number three, follow us on social media at
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That's Dark City Pod onInstagram, facebook Threads and
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Speaker 1 (00:39):
So remember one rate and review, two share with
family and friends and threefollow us on social media.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Thank you so much and we hope you enjoy the episode.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
How does a cafeteria owner in the 1930s, dedicated to
providing affordable meals forall, become the driving force
behind exposing and dismantlingcorruption in the city of Los
Angeles?
Today, we're talking aboutClifford Clinton, a man who took
in the city of Los Angeles.
Today, we're talking aboutClifford Clinton, a man who took
on the city's power structureand won, but whose own personal
life tells a far morecomplicated story.
(01:12):
This is Dark City Season 1, losAngeles.
Today.
I am joined by Robert Peterson,the host of the podcast the
Hidden History of Los Angeles.
Before we explore CliffordClinton's story, robert, can you
tell our audience more aboutyourself and how you decided to
(01:34):
start your podcast?
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Well, thank you so much for having me on.
It's a pleasure to be here andtalk about Clifford Clinton, one
of my favorite characters in LAhistory.
For me, both my parents grew upin LA.
My dad grew up just west ofdowntown and my mom grew up in
Pasadena and Altadena and mygrandparents came here in the
20s and 30s.
So all my life I've heardhistories from LA's past,
(01:59):
hearing about my grandmothertake the Pico streetcar to
Bullocks, wilshire, with her andhave tea with her gloves and
how she dress up, and my dadtalking about going to Hollywood
Stars games over at GilmoreField where the Grove and
Farmer's Market are now.
And then in college I startedgetting a little bit more
serious into LA history readingeverything that was out there,
(02:21):
of course, mike Davis andFragmented Metropolis.
I wrote my thesis in collegecomparing different
neighborhoods in LA.
I was obsessed in college withthis idea of why neighborhoods
look the way they do like, whymy neighborhood in Pasadena
looks this way and is sodifferent than Arcadia and
Sierra Madre and La Cunada.
What makes the neighborhoodlook this way.
And I compared differentneighborhoods throughout LA and
(02:43):
in doing that kind of becameobsessed with LA history.
And that obsession continuedand finally started listening to
podcasts.
Uh, 10 years or so I was like,oh, I'll give this a try, not
knowing anything about podcasts,not knowing anything about
really any of this, just on awhim.
It became a kind of passionproject and it just has
continued as a passion project.
(03:03):
I've been doing it for about 10years, have 80, 90 episodes and
hopefully we'll continue doingit.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
That's awesome.
I actually think we couldprobably bring you on just to
talk about the different LAneighborhoods, because I've
always kind of wondered that too.
That's also really fascinating.
And you know, I didn't givethis background up front, but
the way we met was we justhappened to be.
It was your child's birthdayparty.
(03:31):
A mutual friend had said hey,Leah, you actually cited his
podcast and then you startedtalking, because I didn't make
the connection of the namebecause it'd been so long.
It was the lover in the atticepisode, because you did a
really good episode on it too,and as soon as you started
talking I recognized your voice.
So it's just a very very smallworld.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
I love that.
No, it is a small world.
I especially feel like in theSan Gabriel Valley.
It is a very, very small world.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
When I started researching Clifford Clinton,
one of the things I found was anarticle that you published on
him on PBS SoCal in 2015.
You went pretty deep into thearchives to document his fight
against corruption, from thehospital investigation through
to the bombing of his home and,eventually, the removal the
first time a mayor from a UScity was removed.
(04:14):
How did you decide to researchand share his story?
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Well, first, I've always loved Clifton's Cafeteria
, before it closed in 2011,.
When it originally closed, itwas this really unique, fun
place.
I'm also side note I lovecafeterias and buffets.
I don't know why, I do too.
Bring them back Something aboutit.
And Clifford Clinton is a namethat kind of pops up when you're
(04:40):
studying LA history.
He pops up in all thesedifferent parts, some of the
corruption, food culture, andI'd known about the name, but I
didn't know that much about him,and I heard that I think it was
somewhere around the timebefore Clifton's reopened in
2015.
That is, I think, what kind ofspurred me to want to do an
(05:00):
article about it, and there werea lot of mentions of him in
different books.
I think I looked up somenewspapers, but for me it was
really helpful to go to UCLAspecial collections.
There has an archive onClifford Clinton, and that was
just the best experience ever.
I spent two days over therejust going through his papers
(05:21):
and really digging, you know,deep into trying to figure a
little bit about him, and it wasjust, I must admit, one of my
favorite experiences in thepodcast, because you read about
someone, you read about them inthe newspaper, but there's
something very different andwhen you're reading his
handwritten like that, that wasjust such a special experience.
And then also some of thethings he wrote in the little
(05:44):
newsletters from the restaurantwere really interesting.
So after doing that, and then,you know, submitted it to I
think was KCET at the time andthey put it up and it was
actually great because becauseof that article I got to go to
the grand reopening of Clifton'sin 2015.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Oh nice.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
With disgraced council member Jose Huizar was
there, of course, but it wasreally fun and it was great and
I loved it.
When Clifton's reopened I wentthere I worked pretty close to
there, so it was a great spotand I was bummed when they
closed the cafeteria again.
Hopefully one day they'llreopen it.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Well, you know, actually.
So they.
I don't know if the cafeteriais open, but the club part, or I
think it's they call it anightclub.
It's pretty cool, just likegive people like a visual
because it's such an interestingplace.
I think everyone should visitit, not just because there's
good history, but it has like agiant fake sequoia that runs all
the way from the floor, thebottom floor, all the way up to
(06:40):
the.
I guess be like the top floor.
Every floor has a theme, Likethe way up to the.
I guess be like the top floorand every floor has a theme,
like there's a tiki bar themebecause it used to be a Hawaiian
restaurant, or one of hislocations was there is a Gothic
themed Thor, which was myfavorite.
You have like a DJ playing froma pulpit and you can get a shot
reading with a tarot card.
It's just a really cool, uniqueplace.
(07:01):
But it's also an old place, soit was shut down, I think, for a
while, because they hadplumbing issues or it was like
some major infrastructure issues.
You can catch it when it isopen.
It's good to do.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Yeah, I hope to.
I've seen pictures.
I know they opened up.
I think they have like bars andclubs, upper floors and I guess
maybe the basement too, andI've seen pictures.
It looks great and I love howthe owner what is his name,
andrew Marin I might bemispronouncing his name really
kept a lot of the soul ofBrookdale the giant Sequoia like
you're in a redwood forest, andthen recreating some of his
(07:35):
other restaurant Pacific Seas, Ithink in one of the bars it's
like a South Pacific kind ofisland, tropical island paradise
kind of vibe.
I've only seen pictures butunfortunately, as you know, with
kids my ability to go out atnight has been limited greatly.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
So at some point.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
I'm hoping to see the newly renovated Clifton's.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Well, going back to his first cafeteria in downtown
Los Angeles, so that was also ahead turner.
Can you talk a little bit abouthow it was designed and what it
was like dining there?
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Yes, so his first cafeteria and it was Clifton's
Pacific Seas on Hill Streetpretty close to Pershing Square.
It's actually a vacant lotright now the site is but it was
probably the most unusualcafeteria of its time, or
restaurant really.
It was designed as like atropical island paradise.
They had a waterfall, palmtrees, bamboo all these items
(08:27):
imported from Hawaii, hawaiianmusic playing and just such an
experience to be walking indowntown Los Angeles and then
you take a turn into Clifton'sPacific Seas and you step into a
tropical paradise.
Of course they're servingmeatloaf and moderately priced
cafeteria food.
I never was there it was beforemy time but from everything
(08:48):
I've read about it and peopletalking about their experiences
there, it was just the mostunique, memorable experience to
eat there.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
I think I read too.
They had a signature greenjello with whipped cream and
just interesting stuff they did,like the jello.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Jello was always a theme.
They always had jello.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Do people really serve jello?
Anymore, I feel like that'ssomething that kind of went out
of style.
I think so I'm a fan.
Bring that back too.
He opened up his cafeteria in1931, that smack dab right in
the middle of the.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Great Depression.
Why did he do that and how didit survive?
Well, I think a couple thingsto note.
First is that Clinton's parentsran restaurants.
So he grew up in the I don'tknow the quote, unquote
restaurant business, so he wasfamiliar with how that worked.
But I think, even moreimportantly, he really had this
passion to feed people feedpeople who maybe didn't have
means to feed themselves.
And a lot of that people saycomes from his childhood.
(09:45):
He spent a great deal of histime, before he was 11 or 12, in
China.
His parents were alsomissionaries and there he
experienced some of the falloutfrom the Boxer Rebellion and saw
a lot of starvation, had a lotof experiences that really
instilled in him this desire toaddress hunger, starvation,
(10:05):
feeding people, and that'ssomething we saw throughout his
career when he was runningcafeterias and also later in his
life when he actually turnedhis sights on world hunger.
But I think that was reallywhat caused him to really start
a cafeteria.
And then, in terms of makinghow that worked as an economic
(10:26):
model is interesting because,you know, cafeterias and
restaurants are notoriouslydifficult to stay in business,
but he really, you know, cateredto the public and the needs at
the time I mean in the middle ofthe Great Depression he offered
customers a full meal of soup,salad, bread, jello, coffee, all
for a nickel, and then, whenthat became difficult, he would
(10:48):
offer just basic vegetable soupover brown rice for a penny.
He really catered to the needsof folks who were hurting.
And then, of course, he had thevery famous policy that was
written on every receipt paywhat you can or don't pay at all
.
I'm butchering it, butbasically, if you didn't have
the money, you know, you didn'thave to pay, and I don't know
(11:08):
how that makes economic sensefor a business owner, but it did
for him, because people keptcoming back and people loved his
establishments and he actually,throughout his life, became
very, very wealthy based on hiscafeterias.
But I think it's he knew therestaurant business, he knew his
clientele and he knew therestaurant business.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
He knew his clientele and he knew the needs of the
people at the time.
I also read too that when I wassitting down it was the Penny
Cafeteria where they did thevegetable soup on rice.
They sold like a million ofthose, which is incredible when
you think of.
In the end I also read.
So I think the policy did work.
They struggled financially timeto time, but he always
(11:45):
approached it as a problem tosolve.
There was one individual thatrefused to pay that could, and
eventually they had to call thepolice and he got arrested for
trying to defraud the restaurant.
This is so terrible.
And then when he got out heparked his car in front and had
signs slandering the restaurant.
That is so terrible.
I think for the most partpeople were good and they
(12:07):
respected it, but you've alwaysgot like that.
One crazy story.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Definitely.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Now your article also mentioned there was a pivotal
moment when Clinton took apublic stand for racial
integration in his restaurants.
So the guest voice leafletswhich you looked at when you
were researching for yourarticle, there was an exchange
where he had responded to acustomer who objected to dining
with black patrons.
Can you tell us about hisresponse and what it meant for
(12:34):
Los Angeles at that time?
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Well, so this was 1944.
You know there was a lot of JimCrow in Los Angeles
establishments, and not just incommercial spaces but in
residential.
He had restrictive covenants,so Los Angeles was a deeply
segregated city and then Clintonmade sure that his
establishments people of alltypes, all races, colors, creeds
(12:59):
, could eat there and dinetogether.
And it's interesting I think itreads as a pivotal movement
because he was taking a stand, amoral stand, against something
that threatened his business andhis livelihood.
But that was also just Clinton.
He did that throughout hiscareer.
He had this kind of compass ofwhat he believed and he just
(13:20):
kept going there and sufferednegative consequences throughout
.
But I think it's actuallyhelpful.
I know it might take a second,but I did pull it up.
I can actually read, if youdon't mind, the comment and then
his response, because I thinkit does really provide insight
into Clinton's ideas.
So the person commented andagain this was I forgot what it
(13:41):
was called the guest voice.
It was basically patrons ofClifton's cafeterias could make
comments, sometimes good,sometimes bad, and then Clinton
himself would actually write inthe response, and sometimes
there'd be back and forth.
It's really interesting.
So the customer wrote I'vealways liked Clifton's, but
yesterday while having lunch,two Negroes came and sat at my
(14:03):
table.
After that the food tasted likesawdust.
I like the Negro people, but Irefuse to eat or sleep with them
.
I will hereafter go somewhereelse.
They do not have Negroes.
Watch out, clifton's, that yourplace does not become dot dot,
dot.
Now, my apologies, I know theword yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
It's so terrible to think about.
But also we've got to recountjust to capture what it was like
back then.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
And I think it does.
I mean that was a sentimentthat was not a marginalized
sentiment, that was a sentimentthat a lot of people held at the
time.
So, Clifton, he wrote a verythorough response and this is
what Clinton's response was.
Clinton's response wasDemocracy brings many people
together who may not enjoyclosed social contacts.
It is for us to weigh thebenefits of democracy against
(14:50):
this alternative in which amajority class or master race
could outlaw minorities.
So far, a few nations havechosen the undemocratic way of
life.
We are at war with thosenations and there is no
discrimination as to the racesamong those who are offering
their lives for our Americanrights and freedom To promote
peace, justice, order andharmony.
(15:11):
Our laws and constitution makeit unlawful to discriminate.
We are left with two choices wecan obey the letter and spirit
of the law, which we believealso expresses the Christian
solution of our problems, or wecan violate the law in the
Christian conscious of ourrepublic.
Frankly, we know of only oneline of conduct consistent with
our conscious and our obligationas a citizen it is our duty to
(15:34):
serve all who enter our doorsand conduct themselves within
their legal rights.
If the ruin so often predictedis around the corner, then we
prefer to be ruined doingbusiness in accordance with our
obligations as a citizen.
This is our policy.
We survive or perish, accordingto which point of view has
greatest appeal to the people.
Somehow we have faith in thepeople.
(15:56):
I know that's a little bit longand long-winded, but I think it
actually really is a sentimentyou hear throughout Clinton's
life, whether it's corruption,whether he really believed he
had this civic duty.
That was grounded in partbecause of his kind of Christian
consciences.
But it was basically this idea,this moral imperative to try to
(16:19):
do right in society and haveyou perform your civic
obligations.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
I think that's so great too, that he published the
comment and he published thespot.
It's one thing to just take thecomment, but it's quite another
to put your neck out there,which he did quite a lot.
That is a good segue to.
So how does one go from runningcafeterias to taking on the
whole entire corrupt powerstructure of Los Angeles?
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Yeah, this is where the story gets even more
interesting.
So in 1935, a county board ofsupervisor asked Clinton to
inspect food operations at theCounty General Hospital and
Clinton did his owninvestigation and discovered
waste and corruption that wascosting the county something
like $200,000 a year.
So that kind of got him startedin this process of looking at
(17:08):
corruption within localgovernment and Clinton got
himself appointed to the countygrand jury and then pushed the
grand jury to investigate viceconditions in LA.
Now there were people on thegrand jury who did not want to
do that.
Now there were people on theground jury who did not want to
(17:35):
do that.
They were associates and orreceiving money from crime
bosses and or corrupt politicalofficials.
So then Clinton started his owngroup called the Citizen and
Independent Vice InvestigatingCommittee, or CIVIC, found
hundreds of brothels, hundredsof gambling houses, bookie
joints and slot machines.
That was a big thing, thousandsof slot machines in the city
and the grand jury refused tomake that public.
So Clinton then produced hisown minority grand jury report
and in it he really went afterthe power structure and he
(17:57):
basically said look in County,the district attorney, the
sheriff, the chief of police,the mayor's office, they're
working in quote in completeharmony and never interfere with
the activities of the crimebosses or the criminal
underground in LA.
And that I mean I thinknewspapers would kind of comment
(18:17):
upon corruption.
But I think Clinton in thisreport really put into picture,
hey, how widespread corruptionwas in LA.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
It's incredible, and I also imagine too, a lot of
people were afraid to speak up,because when you have it in
literally every single facet ofwhat should be the structure and
function of a lawful city, theretaliation is really dangerous.
When I was reading this part,it kind of reminded me did you
ever watch Game of Thrones?
Speaker 3 (18:47):
I did not.
I have missed it.
Oh my gosh, it's so angry at me.
She's not angry at me, but shecan't believe that I've never
watched it.
But yes, I'm glad I'm not.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Okay, well, I got to draw this analogy because I
think most of our listeners have.
I cannot believe you've notwatched it.
The last few seasons aredisappointing, I will warn you,
but it's worth it.
So there's this character, nedStark.
He's the core character inseason one and a lot goes on
with him.
So he is serving as the hand ofthe king, so that's basically
(19:15):
like your chief of staff and hefinds out that the king's
supposed legitimate heir,joffrey, is actually not
legitimate.
In fact, his wife was having anaffair with her brother and so,
instead of building support orwaiting for his army to arrive
from the north, he trusted honorand proper procedure.
And he even had this greatscene where, when Robert died,
(19:37):
he presented this finaldeclaration that Ned would be
the protector of the realm.
And Cersei, the queen, justtook it and ripped it up and was
like what's this?
A piece of paper?
That kind of reminds me ofClifford at this time, where
it's like you don't necessarilyhave all the alliances and
everything backed up and thesepeople don't care.
You're really going after verydeeply entrenched power
structures and people who don'thave a moral compass With that
(19:59):
said one, watch the show.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
I will watch the show and you're right to bring up
the scope of the corruption inLA.
That's something I think peoplewe hear about corruption and
there is definitely problemswith corruption, as we've seen
with some of our council membersAlways.
But the scope of the corruption, especially in the 30s, early
30s, was intense.
I mean, we're talking about themayor.
The mayor appointed his brotheras like and then his brother
was handing out civil serviceassignments and jobs for bribes.
(20:28):
The police chief, the districtattorney, the person that's
supposed to be the highest lawenforcement person in the county
to go after bad behavior andmisconduct and crime.
He's on the take.
But really bribery corruptionwas a way of.
That's a little joke that Ialways think of I know a lot of
people love to talk about.
Oh, the tunnels underneathdowntown were all bootlegging
(20:50):
tunnels.
There may be a couple, but thetruth is they didn't need
bootlegging tunnels because LAPDwas complicit in the criminal
activities of bootlegging.
So there may be a few, butthere was no need for an
elaborate maze of tunnelsunderneath LA because the LAPD
was part of it.
They were complicit.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Yeah, I remember reading the reports of like he
had information or would seelike police would just walk past
it could be a brothel or likeblatant illegal things happening
on the street and nobody wouldstop.
So when Clifford called thisall out, it did turn out better
for him than it did for NedStark which you'll find out when
you watch season one but stillit was really bad for him.
(21:32):
There were really bad thingsthat happened.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
So what happened specifically, Clinton's own
establishments as cafeteriaswere suddenly being visited by
city health inspectors and citedfor violations or supposed
violations.
His real estate taxes weremysteriously increased.
He was denied a permit for anew cafeteria.
Suddenly there were slip andfall and food poisoning,
(21:57):
lawsuits being filed against him.
But then it even got violent.
In 1937, a bomb exploded inClifton's home, in his home in
Los Feliz, and luckily Clintonand his family were on the other
side of the home at the timeand were unharmed.
But it was clear that peoplewere willing to kill him to stop
him from his crusade againstvice.
(22:19):
It was interesting what theLAPD's response to the bombing
of Clifford Clinton's home was.
The LAPD said that you know.
They suggested it was apublicity stunt engineered by
Clinton himself.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
So there was no help from law enforcement.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
I mean, they were linked to it and they blamed it
on Clinton.
So he was really on his own inan island battling law
enforcement, city hall, thesheriff's department.
He was really taking oneverybody.
I mean he had allies but hecouldn't go to the normal places
where you would go forprotection.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
That's so terrible.
I didn't know that part abouthow they tried to go back and
say and actually he justmanufactured it, that is dark.
Manufactured it, that is dark.
So he's also known for like hewould keep his door unlocked as
a sign of his generosity andacceptance of other people.
Did he start locking it afterthat time?
Speaker 3 (23:13):
I would hope so.
He had a family?
I would hope so, but it isinteresting to note that his
house is still there and it's abeautiful house.
Oh, interesting.
You drive down, it's onFranklin and Los Feliz, right as
Franklin turns into Western,gorgeous, beautiful house that,
interestingly, was put on themarket a few years back for
about five.
So they published all thesepictures of the inside,
(23:35):
beautiful, beautiful house.
And every time you drive downas Los Feliz turns into Western,
you can see Clifford Clinton'shouse and where the LAPD most
likely planted a bomb to try tokill him.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
There is an ex-police officer named Harry Raymond who
was working with CliffordClinton to feed him information
on what was going on becauseClifford's not backing down.
But then Harry's car was bombed.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
Yeah.
So Harry Raymond is aninteresting character unto
himself.
So let me just say that HarryRaymond is a pretty shady
character.
He was an ex-cop fired by theLAPD.
I think he was fired from acouple other law enforcement
agencies, got it.
But he was doing his owninvestigation, quote unquote,
into corruption in LA and he wassimultaneously feeding some
information to Clinton.
And it also appears he was alsotrying to shake down the Shaw
(24:21):
administration, mayor Frank Shaw, who was the mayor at the time.
So his intentions are a littlebit obscure, but he was feeding
information to Clinton aboutBison delay.
And one day Raymond gets intohis car this happened a couple
of blocks from Roosevelt HighSchool in Boyle Heights and puts
his foot on the pedal.
Boom, car bomb explodes.
(24:43):
Amazingly, raymond survives.
They take him to the hospital.
He's at this hospital bed, he'sgot shrapnel wounds all over
his body and he calls a reporterfrom the Los Angeles examiner
to come.
And.
But Raymond lets it all out andbasically accuses an LAPD
captain named Earl Connett ofplanting the bomb.
And these allegations becamefront page news.
(25:05):
And then it even got crazier,because then, you know, earl
Connett, the captain, is accusedof planting the bomb.
Who does the LAPD assign toinvestigate the bombing Captain
Connett, which is crazy.
And finally he is investigated,finally the da looks into it
probably didn't want to, butfinally was kind of forced to
(25:27):
and uh, connect was put on trialfor and he was.
And they found out during thetrial that you know he purchased
the steel pipe used in thebombing, connected him to the
bombing.
But a lot of more informationcame out during the trial
information about you knowspying and the lpD spying on
prominent Angelenos, on judges,and just a ton of information.
And again, this was front pagenews.
(25:48):
Connett was eventuallyconvicted and sentenced to
prison.
But the big thing was that allthis information came out and I
think it was a sort of turningpoint in public opinion and
really an outing of just thedepth of the corruption in Los
Angeles.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
It's amazing that anything ever well, I don't
think it ever got completelybetter after that there's still
long running issues but it didmake a significant dent.
I mean, what would you say ifyou were to wrap up Clifford
Clinton's effort not backingdown during this period?
What impact did it ultimatelyhave on Los Angeles politics?
A?
Speaker 3 (26:22):
huge impact.
I mean so after after Kinnett'strial and all this information
comes out, clinton and hisallies again.
It wasn't just Clinton alone,but there were several people
involved in kind ofanti-corruption efforts.
They recruited a reform mindedjudge named Fletcher Bowron
Fletcher Bowron Square indowntown LA if you've ever been
(26:43):
by there to run for mayoragainst Frank Shaw and Bowron
wins handily.
And then they put pressure.
They finally get the policechief to resign and I think
Bowron when he gets elected thenhe actually forces a whole
police commission to resign.
Frank Shaw's brother who washanding out civil service jobs
for bribes.
(27:04):
He was convicted for doing soPretty soon after the district
attorney lost his campaign.
So everybody was cleaned outand we're talking this is a
matter of a few years.
I think we're talking maybethree years from when Clinton
first started with the countyhospital investigation to like
the mayor being sacked.
So it had a huge effect on LosAngeles and also in ways that
(27:29):
secondary effects.
Some of the crime bosses left LAbecause LA was no longer the
safe haven for criminal activitythat it once was in corruption.
People like Guy McAfee, who wasa crime boss, who went to Vegas
.
He actually started the GoldenNugget and became very
successful there, but it had ahuge impact in LA.
The LAPD transformed DarylGates, who has many of his own
(27:53):
issues, and Chief Parkertransformed the LAPD Again.
There continue to be problems,but it's unbelievable.
I mean Clifford Clinton, thisrestaurateur, in a few years
managed to clean house and deala huge blow to corruption in LA.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
After Clifford made this headway in this realm,
going back to his experiencerunning cafeterias and being in
the food business, his workdidn't stop there.
Later his work would have animpact on even world hunger.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
Speaker 3 (28:30):
Sure, I mean it sounds it's almost unbelievable.
But after all of this, Clintonsays you know, I'm going to try
to tackle world hunger.
So he asked a Caltechbiochemist to develop a food
(28:53):
supplement that would provideproper nutritional values at a
very, very cheap rate, like afew cents a meal.
And Clifford Clinton.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
I keep on conflating the two.
Because he did this he mixedthe two with his cafeteria, but
Clinton also.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
then he called it Clifton's.
To make it even morecomplicated, clinton financed
the research and it led to thedevelopment of a multipurpose
food MPF and it's like a highprotein food supplement that can
be made for a few cents a meal.
And then Clinton created Mealsfor Millions, a nonprofit
organization which would go onto provide millions of MPFs
multipurpose foods to people inover 60 countries around the
(29:21):
world.
I think it goes back to thatkind of passion he developed
early in life to feed people, tofeed people in need.
It's something that we reallysaw throughout his life.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Fast forwarding a couple decades later about, if
not around, the time he'sretired.
A couple decades later about,if not around, the time he's
retired.
There's always a twist.
It's never a simple story.
I'm going to go even furtherforward in time before we talk
about this point in Clifford'slife.
It's January 2011, and a mannamed Ray Richmond shows up to
Clifton's cafeteria on Broadwaywith his brother and sister with
(29:56):
a very special box.
They were the ashes of hismother, terry.
Building renovations were wellunderway so, when nobody was
looking, they poured the ashesdown an electrical closet whose
wiring extended down throughoutthe building, basically to
spread her ashes throughout thebuilding, which was probably
illegal, but they believed it'swhat she would have wanted.
And why would she want this?
(30:16):
So when I started researchingClifford because he did all of
these incredible things I didhave this vague memory of an
affair somewhere.
So I started digging and atfirst I thought, okay, maybe
it's not really that bad, maybeit's not that true.
I had this temptation to try tosanitize history.
And then I dug more.
This is not the clean story Iwas expecting In 1958.
(30:39):
So this is now okay.
So fast forwarding a couple ofdecades after at least his
corruption fight.
In 1958, according to RayRichmond and recordings from his
mother, terry, published on aKCRW podcast and cited in a few
other vetted sources, cliffordClinton went to the
chiropractor's office, probablyinnocent, probably was going
through back pain or somethinglike that.
(30:59):
But when he was there it turnedout they had one of those quote
unquote massage therapists inthe back and he went to see her.
And then he kept going to seeher and kept paying her.
This woman, terry Richmond, hadset up shop.
Essentially it was across thestreet from 20th Century Fox
Studios and it was more or lesskind of like that industry.
(31:21):
He was fought brothels that hewas supposed to be fighting.
He's now a regular client.
Now this would become afull-blown affair that would
last for a decade up until whenhe died in 1969.
His grandson even acknowledgedit in his book that he'd read
Ray's article on the affair andhe remembered hearing certain
whispers and hush conversationsgrowing up.
(31:42):
And now it made sense.
We may not know ever the exactdetails, but more or less this
happened and, even worse, hiswife, nelda, it said when she
found out and gave him anultimatum, he tried to commit
suicide and he told her he wouldnever try to do that again, but
as long as she accepted thearrangement, and so they went on
(32:05):
like that.
He stayed married with her andTerry stayed his mistress.
There's even a picture of themon vacation in Hawaii together.
It's just a lot.
It's a lot to digest given,like all the other great stuff
he did.
So you know, knowing that kindof putting all of that in
context with the things he didearlier in life, how do we make
sense of his legacy?
Speaker 3 (32:26):
I've heard that KCRW story too, and I don't know much
about it other than just whatI've heard from the KCRW story.
That's something that I didn'tcome across in my research of
Clinton.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
And that came out after your article too.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
So you know I would say that you know I've never
researched a character who wasnot complicated and was, you
know, not was you know, onedimensional.
So a lot of the figures that welook at in history are pretty
darn complicated and do thingsthat don't seem to necessarily
fit with either their publicpersona or maybe some things
(33:02):
they've done other times intheir lives.
For him it's complicated how toplace that.
We're all kind of speculatinghere because I don't know what
he would have said about it.
But first, to prefaceeverything, it's hard to explain
matters of the heart.
Looking back at Clinton and hiscrusade against public
(33:22):
corruption, from my point ofview it's always been more of
attacking systematic corruptionand not so much being obsessed
with regulating the conduct ofindividuals.
I didn't see him as a moralitypoliceman trying to you know you
guys got to stop sinning andfornicating and you know that
(33:45):
didn't seem to be his, at leastfrom what I've read about him
and looked into.
That wasn't his main purpose.
He wasn't a preacher.
He wasn't AmySimpson-Folk-Mirson trying to
change people's lives in thatway.
He was more interested inrooting out corruption that
hurts society as a whole.
You had a system in LA wherethe government answered to crime
(34:05):
bosses and corrupt politicians,not the people, and that was
something.
But he was guided by a Christianconscience.
That does seem to be at oddswith the way he described being
guided by his Christianconscience, does seem to be at
odds with some of he describedbeing guided by his Christian
conscious.
Does he be at odds with some ofthe behavior later in his life?
It's hard to really knowexactly how he would talk about
(34:28):
it.
Also, something that's possibleis that people's views change.
We're coming on the 60s and thesexual revolution.
People do change their viewsand I don't know if maybe some
of his views may have changedbecause of this relation, maybe
not.
Again, it's all speculation.
It is definitely anotherinteresting chapter, interesting
(34:49):
fold in his life.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Allegedly there were letters.
There were love letters he hadwritten.
I know they were originallylinked, but now that they're not
, it would be so interesting tosee those.
We don't really know what hewould have said.
We only know what Terry saidand what her son said, and then
his grandson later addressed itwhen he wrote a book about
Clifford, but we don't reallyknow his perspective on it too.
It is a lot to digest, though,because people have different
(35:13):
arrangements in theirrelationships, but it's more the
fact of like.
But you said you were fightingbrothels.
You know, broadly speaking Alsotoo, if it's true that he
forced his wife to accept.
I mean, by putting that sort ofburden on someone is yeah, that
sounds.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
In terms of fighting corruption and brothels.
I mean, I could imagine asituation today where someone
who maybe is on a crusadeagainst you know drug cartels.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
Might enjoy recreational drug use themselves
Documented cases of it.
You can also imagine someonetrying to root out criminal
underground gambling but doesn'thave a problem going to Las
Vegas and pulling the slots afew times.
But again there's all kind ofspeculation.
But it's really interestingbecause I wish we could hear
Clinton talk about it.
(35:59):
Because I bet it's reallyinteresting because he was a
very articulate man with verystrongly held beliefs and I
would love to hear what thisrelationship meant to him and if
it changed his maybe views onthings.
Maybe it didn't, I would befascinated.
I wish we could.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
I know, or even just validate, did this actually
happen or did it not?
But that's always the hard part.
I'm sure you probably run intothis over and over again with
your podcast.
But we just don't know thesepeople and they're not alive to
talk about it.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
But I think it's good to.
I think a lot of times inhistory we are afraid.
We put people up on pedestalsand we want to keep them there.
We're afraid if we talk aboutanything negative that will
somehow destroy the legacy, andI hope that people realize that
people are complicated All of usare complicated and it doesn't
(36:53):
destroy someone's legacy just tofind out there's some change or
they changed their mind aboutsomething.
I'm not saying what happenedwith Clinton.
It doesn't take away, at leastin my view, the important work
he did for the people of LA andI think he is one of those
characters that there's a lot ofcharacters and figures in LA
that had an important impact onLA and they did it because they
(37:15):
wanted to be powerful or rich orto gain notoriety.
Clinton is someone who reallydid it because he thought it was
part of his civic duty, and Ithink that's special and I don't
think it's rare to see a figurelike that feel some sort of
civic obligation and civic dutyand put his life on the line to
do it and then to have theeffect that he did he cleaned
(37:37):
house in a few short years.
Of course we still live withcorruption in LA, but it was a
big change in the 30s and the40s to how City Hall and the
city was run.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Well, robert, thank you so much for coming on to
talk about the story.
It's fascinating for a milliondifferent reasons and I will
link your podcast in our shownotes so, for all of you who
don't want to just hear the darkstuff when you listen to us,
head on over to Robert's podcast, because he talks about all of
it.
So, thank you again.
It was a joy to have you on theshow and really appreciate you
(38:11):
coming on.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
Thank you so much for having me on.
It's been an absolute pleasuretalking to you and I really
enjoy your podcast.
So again, thanks so much forhaving me on.
Thank you.
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