October 13, 2022 • 26 mins
Depending on who you are, when someone brings up the metaverse, you either get really excited, or you have no clue what they’re talking about. Or both! Liberty and Scott have each found themselves in one of these boats. So they’re diving deep into the data to find out what in the world the metaverse actually is, what it’s not, and if it’s going to be a thing that helps society flourish, or if it will be our demise. They talk with experts to get clear definitions and to find out if we’ll be living in a virtual reality world years from now.
Liberty and Scott speak with Joe Paradiso, director of the MIT Media Lab's Responsive Environments Group; and Eric Ravenscraft, technology writer for WIRED
Data Nation is a production of the MIT Institute for Data, Systems, and Society and Voxtopica.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
[MUSIC PLAYING]
(00:03):
Welcome to Data Nation.
I'm Munther Dahleh, and I'm theDirector of the MIT's Institute
of Data, Systems, and Society.
Today on Data Nation,Liberty and Scott
are diving deepinto the metaverse.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
When we decided to do anepisode on the metaverse,
(00:26):
I have to be totally honestand say that I had to Google,
what is the metaverse?
And what I saw isthat most people have
tons of questions about it.
Is the metaverse our future?
Are we going to be livingwith virtual reality headsets
and completely disregardthe real physical world?
(00:48):
But before we can answerthose bigger questions,
we have to figure out and definewhat actually is the metaverse.
Well, hopefully it'sReady Player One.
But I guess if you wouldask the average person
on the street withthe metaverse,
you get a lot of blank staresand wildly different answers.
But I guess that's whywe're doing this episode.
So to be honest, we're probablymuch closer to the metaverse
(01:11):
than we realize.
We're going to startby figuring out
what that actually is, what wemean when we say the metaverse.
And we are going to take thesequestions to Joe Paradiso.
Joe is the DreyfoosProfessor at MIT
and directs the MIT Media Lab'sResponsive Environments Group.
And on a quick side note, theMIT Media Lab has in the past
(01:35):
really defined thefuture for society
when it comes tomedia and technology.
And Joe has also writtenover 350 publications
and really specializes inhow to augment and mediate
the human experience.
In the fall of 2021,Facebook renamed itself
Meta, which was reallythe first introduction
(01:57):
I had to the word metaverse.
But I at least understand thatthe metaverse isn't Facebook.
So from your perspective, fromthe MIT Media Lab perspective,
what do you seethe metaverse as?
These ideas go way, way back.
So the basic ideas are not new.
When we think, wedon't really call
it metaverse because that'sbecome such a loaded term now.
(02:20):
You say it, everybody knowswhat it is, but that in a way
hems it in to this kindof narrow definition
that maybe of networkedgame environments
where you kind ofplay games and can
get a call in virtual reality.
It's so much deeper than that.
We call it Xverseat the Media Lab.
And we've got lots ofprograms that have been
exploring the edges of this.
We're looking at nowkind of theming them
(02:40):
a little bit more than we have.
But it's about informationcoming from you
and coming to you in differentways at different times.
And already, we'reliving a bit in that.
I have my watch that'sconnected to my doorbell.
And somebody walks by, it maybuzz or I'll see a picture.
So there's a whole continuumthere that's really intriguing.
And I think that's howit's going to play out.
It's not just going tobe this virtual reality
(03:02):
headset we put on, suddenly,we're somewhere else.
It's going to bea whole continuum
of really abstracted presence.
I think that's one ofthe interesting things
about the future.
As we become moreand more connected,
it is about connection.
We start blurring thesense of where we are.
A lot of people areactually already
familiar with thisblurred sense of reality.
(03:24):
When COVID-19 pandemicswept the globe,
many individuals startedworking from home.
And for many, I guessthe typical work
day looked like this.
You'd sign into Slack.
You'd update yourstatus to active,
so your employerknows you're there.
You make sure youstay productive
because your workplacemonitors your project progress
(03:46):
and senses forcomputer movements
to make sure that youhaven't left your desk.
You join an afternoonvideo call via your laptop
with colleagues who arealso sitting in their homes.
And finally, you end yourworkday by signing out of Slack,
shutting down your computer,and you immediately
head back into your homelife after having just
(04:06):
worked an entire dayfrom your kitchen table.
So the line certainly becameblurred between what was real
and what was virtual.
So, Joe, I'm curious, isthis the kind of direction
the metaverse is going?
Because I know thatthere are other
examples that I might qualifyas a tool to metaverse.
For example, if Ihave my Apple iPhone
and I've got a filteron it, and it's
(04:29):
in superimposing a dog overa picture or something I'm
looking at, am I using a tool ofthe Xverse verse or metaverse?
Or is that part of that blurredreality that you're talking
about.
Would that fit the definition?
It's definitely on ramp to it,and I'd say it's a part of it,
especially when it's networked,because you do it in Snapchat,
like my daughters do, then allyour friends see you as that.
(04:52):
So that's yourimage at that point.
So using the dogfilter on my Snapchat
is an on ramp to the metaverse.
And this would be anexample of what we
call augmented reality or AR.
AR uses things like reallandscapes and digital scenes
to theoretically enhanceour current reality.
Augmented Reality, or AR, reallycame to the world's fingertips
in 2016.
And with the emergenceof Pokemon Go,
(05:14):
players would open theapp, which would then
use their camera andlocation to display
whatever the camera pointed at.
The app would displayPokemon on screen
as though they were rightthere in front of them.
Players could thencatch the monsters.
Eventually, developersadded trading
where players coulddirectly interact and trade
Pokemon with each other fromthe comfort of their own homes.
It's funny to say the metaverseand the future of humankind
(05:36):
may look a lot more likethe world of Pokemon Go
than you might think, wherethe metaverse uses reality
to support its platformrather than purely
be a virtual experience.
The most common waypeople are proposing
this future is through theuse of special AR glasses.
And these glassesare being developed
by brands like Meta or Appleor Snapchat or even Ray-Ban.
(05:58):
But I can't help but wonderif existing in these AR and VR
landscapes will actually be whatthe metaverse consists of, or is
this just some ideapurported by science fiction?
So Joe, when you saythe word "metaverse,"
the average personon the street,
their first thoughtwill probably be, oh,
like Ready Player One?
(06:19):
Or oh, I get an Oculusand I'm playing here.
You might get a moresophisticated nerd like myself
and be like, yeah, I've beenpart of the metaverse before.
I play a game calledEve Online, or, yeah,
I owned a house in Second Life.
The definition isfluid, so to speak.
Like, I don't think wewould agree that Facebook
is inventing the metaverse.
(06:40):
I think we shouldsay that Facebook
is trying to participate inthe concept of the metaverse.
Yeah.
They're trying togive it a big kick.
Yeah, exactly whatthe concept is.
They're still figuringit out as we are.
You made some good points.
And of course, you couldhave your house in Minecraft,
or you could have it alsoin Animal Crossing, which
is very interesting, becausepeople come and visit it.
(07:01):
You work on yourproperty, you share it.
And also the weatherin your island
can depend on the weatherthat's happening locally.
So you already seethis folding of reality
into this other universe.
And I think that's wherea lot of my work has been.
And I think that's where there'sa whole interesting frontier
interpreting the real worldthrough virtual constructs.
(07:22):
So you can actually havea closer connection to it.
I like that.
I'm going to stealinterpreting the real world
through virtual constructs,which again, it's
not quite a direct link to theaugmented reality we talked
about before.
So there's this conceptof uploading your brain
to a computer in the future.
When I hear somethinglike this, I
envision we're going to uploadour brain to the metaverse
(07:42):
via an Elon Musk brain link anddo a Zuckerberg-owned community
and play virtual footballowned by the NFL.
Are we basicallybuilding the metaverse
that I can do all the thingsin a non-physical world
that I can't doin the real world?
That's a very loaded question.
You can break down 20different ways, all of which
are kind ofinteresting actually.
So I think at the firstlevel, yeah, uploading
(08:04):
your brain is complicated.
Making a connection to yourbrain is still complicated,
but it's doable.
People have done it, and there'sgoing to be much more of it.
So if you want tolook at-- you go out,
let's say, you talk 50 years.
This is a comfortable number.
It could even be much sooner.
We don't know.
People will connect to virtualrealms directly, I suspect.
(08:24):
Lots of different takes on it.
Already, you havepeople that are
paralyzed that can move thingswith their motor neurons.
Elon's very involvedin that, but there
are lots of other peopleworking on that problem,
including people at theMedia Lab and at MIT.
But yeah, this is goingto be first for people
with disabilities.
Eventually, I think itwill have broader impact.
And yeah, like in the Matrixand in Simulacron-3 and World
(08:46):
on a Wire, stuff like that.
When we talk aboutthe metaverse,
we're talking aboutcreating another environment
in which peopleinteract everything
from economies to how we live.
Do we think this is agood thing for society,
that this technology is coming?
Are you excited forit or are you afraid?
It's a bit of both.
Even here at MIT,Tom Malone used
to talk a lot about collectiveintelligence, at least
(09:06):
to our point of view.
We're afraid of anykind of a socialism.
I think identity and individualidentity is very important.
So if we approach thiskind of a collectivism,
what's the roleof the individual?
I think it's critical.
Or could individuals be dynamicthings that just form out
of combinations of people?
I don't know.
It's going to be verydifferent if you go out
far enough, maybe even in thenear-term of a decade or so.
(09:29):
And I think it's going tolead to a lot of capability.
On the other hand, it leadsto tremendous opportunity
for indoctrination becauseyou know a lot about people,
you know a lotabout their state.
You can approach them withsomething at the right time.
And for learning, I thinkthat's great because you learn,
the cloud learns, weall learn together.
It's another future for this.
It's already happeningto some extent,
but now it's brought up close.
So the whole division of whatthe cloud learns about I learn
(09:52):
and exactly how I learnit and what context
is something that'sgoing to be very dynamic.
To wrap this up, we've justtalked about the negatives.
What are some examples of thetrue, incredible positives
that are going to be able tocome out of this for society?
When we did our hourHere&There project at Tidmarsh,
the cranberry farm, that's awetland that we have sensors all
over the place and tunnel themthrough the virtual worlds,
(10:14):
we had an app where you wearbone conduction headphones.
It didn't cover your ears, itjust pushed into your head.
So you could hear throughvibrations on your skull,
essentially.
It was fairly innocuous.
You really didn't notice it.
But you heard thesethings as well as hearing
through your ears.
And we had it channeledinto the microphones.
We had all over the placeto pick up the wildlife.
And it knew where you werebecause you had GPS and knew
(10:35):
the angle of your head, becausewe had inertial measurement unit
to track it.
And we tunnel in theaudio from these sources
as if you were hearing them.
So they move with yourhead, so on and so forth.
And it was remarkable.
I was expanded.
I was not diminished.
I didn't want to take it off.
I put on a VR headset, it'skind of fun to play some stuff,
but I get fatigued, I get sick.
I'm relieved when I take it off.
(10:55):
I didn't want to take this off.
It augmented me ratherthan diminish me.
And I think we have a chance todevelop interfaces and systems
that really augmentpeople in different ways
and don't diminish them.
In all aspects, I thinkthat's what we have to go for
and I think there'stremendous promise there.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
I think we definitely have aclear view on the metaverse.
(11:19):
But I also think it's fairto say that a lot of people
have mixed feelings abouthow this will change society.
Joe mentioned in hisexperience with virtual reality
that he felt thattechnology added
something refreshing to life.
He didn't feel that it tookaway or cheapened reality.
(11:40):
But are there validreasons for people
to be concernedabout the increasing
use of metaverse technology?
So that's a good question.
One of the things peopleare concerned about
is how hard willit be for people
to access the metaversefrom a financial standpoint.
In order to make themetaverse inclusive,
businesses need to beable to securely exchange
(12:00):
funds that are not exclusive toany one country or continent.
So it seems likelythat the metaverse will
turn to cryptocurrencieslike Bitcoin or Ethereum,
and some transactionsmay also take the form
of non-fungible tokens or NFTs.
And cryptocurrenciesaside, will the cost
of the equipment like VR and ARglasses create an equity gap?
Another thing that peopleare really worried about
(12:21):
is obviously safety.
Recently, Meta wastesting their VR platform
called Horizon Worldswhen users alerted them
of this totally new kind ofthreat, this virtual physical
and sexual harassment.
And meta responded by adding afeature that created a 4-foot
(12:41):
virtual bubble betweennon-friend players.
But what happens when a userdoes what's called modding
or modifying the game and theycreate a program that allows
them to violate this 4-footbarrier and impose on the player
in some way?
How will the metaversepunish virtual crimes?
(13:04):
There are clearlya lot of questions,
concerns for what themetaverse would actually
look like day-to-day.
So we're going to take thesequestions to Eric Ravenscraft.
So when you Google,what is the metaverse,
Eric's article is thefirst one to come up.
Eric is a writer for Wired,where he has guided readers
on how to use technology fornearly a decade for publications
like Lifehacker, oneZero,and The New York Times.
(13:25):
The metaverse issuch a big term,
and it takes a bit to wrapour minds around what the word
metaverse actually means.
So we're asking everyone.
We talked with Joe Paradisofrom MIT's Media Lab
about what themetaverse means to him.
We wanted to talkto you as well.
How would you explainthe metaverse?
I sort of have twobranching answers to that.
One is that it is sort ofa collection-- companies
(13:49):
are referring to a collectionof technologies ranging
from virtual reality,augmented reality, a collection
of different types of sensorsand networking devices
that enable motiontracking or whatnot that
go beyond the capabilities ofjust what we typically think
of as the internet,which is your phone
or your computerconnecting to a website.
(14:09):
And that is a very wide arrayof technologies, some of which
even work in opposingdirections to each other.
The second definitionthat I think
is more accuratefor the metaverse
as a phrase is that itis a marketing term.
The conversationaround the metaverse
kicked off whenFacebook announced
that it was rebranding toMeta because it's planning
(14:31):
to build the metaverse.
So this idea of avirtual world where
everyone willsocialize and buy stuff
and there will be a lot oftransactions for digital clothes
and a merchant to takea cut of those sales
is a narrative that Facebook hasa vested interest in promoting.
But the narrative ofwhat the metaverse is
(14:52):
and the technologythat actually exists
are very often divergentfrom each other.
So one of theproblems that we've
seen-- so if we describethe metaverse just
for the purposes of thisquestion as what I imagine
it to be, where it's like VRheadsets or Oculus headsets
(15:14):
and you're living inthis virtual reality,
I would imagine that todo interesting things,
you're going to need stuff.
Like you're goingto need equipment,
you're going to need software,you're going to need stuff,
and that there's a huge cost asthings goes on and on to that.
Is there a chance thatthe metaverse or what
I imagine the metaverseto be is actually
(15:34):
going to end up creatingsort of an equity situation?
It's going to makeit so that people
who have money orwho can buy stuff
are going to be able toparticipate in these things.
And people who can't.
Or is there any issue withthe metaverse in terms
of the socioeconomic aspectof our country or our world?
Absolutely.
(15:54):
Yes.
I think that we alreadysee that a little bit
in the internet of today.
You need a laptop or a phone.
You need a cell connectionin order to connect.
And those things are relativelycheap and relatively portable.
You can put alaptop on your lap,
you can carry aphone in your pocket.
But let's say that the metaverseis going to be VR-based.
If you have a VR headset--
(16:15):
I have a Quest 2 in my house.
And in order to use that, Ineed about a living room's
worth of space to set upand us, that. which means,
among other things,I need a living room.
I briefly lived in DC, and thereare very small apartments there.
I'm not sure Icould allocate space
for a metaverse workstation.
And headsets are already likethey're getting less expensive,
(16:36):
but they're not usefulenough to justify
the expense in the sameway that a phone does.
And they're on top of a phone,they're on top of a laptop.
So it's one more device to buy.
There's space neededin order to use them.
We don't know what bandwidthrequirements would be for these
if we got to a really highdetailed virtual analog
(16:58):
for a physical world.
So I do think thatthere are absolutely
socioeconomic challengesto getting people
to use the hardware for this.
And then it sort of createsa chicken and egg problem
that if not everyonecan use the hardware,
how do you developthe software for it?
And if no one'sdeveloping the software,
why buy the hardware for it?
So there are a lot ofchallenges in getting
even a hypothetical virtualworld like this up and running.
(17:22):
But as we definedearlier, the metaverse
is not just what aheadset you put on,
augmented realityphones, glasses.
If you and I and Liberty aretalking about this 10 years
from now, where do youthink it's going to be?
Is it going to be closerto Ready Player One?
Or is it going tobe closer to we
have a lot of individualgadgets that augment our world
and allow us tointeract differently,
(17:42):
but not necessarily ensconcedor envelop our lives?
Yeah.
And I love talkingabout what may happen,
but the one thingI am comfortable
saying is we will not beliving in Ready Player One.
It's challenging becausepart of the issue
is that we don't reallyhave a good sense of scale
of the technologicalrequirements for a Ready Player
(18:04):
One style metaverse.
Intel came outrecently and described
that the amountof computing power
needed for somethinglike that is
like a thousand-foldbeyond what we have now.
But in the next five years,we might get 10-fold,
it's just the scale required.
And as processing powergets more powerful,
we tend to fill that up.
(18:24):
There's a reason that videogames don't load instantly,
even though we have massivelymore powerful systems now
than we had 20 years ago.
It's because when thecomputers get more powerful,
what we ask of themgets more intense.
So Fortnite couldbe photorealistic,
but you couldn't do it with100 people in an instance.
So that I don't think islikely or even possible.
(18:48):
But I do think that we have alot of exciting technologies
that could help usaugment our world.
Like one thing I'mreally interested in
is a photogrammetry.
There's an app for aniPhone called polycam.
You basically take a fewhundred photos of an object
or you just take avideo walking around it.
And it will spit out a3D model of that object.
(19:08):
You could take thatinto a video game,
you could make amovie out of that.
You could build yourown virtual sets.
Those kind of things arereally exciting because that
lets you connect your phoneto a virtual environment,
to real practicalthings you can make.
And that I think,is very exciting.
But will that rise to thelevel of Ready Player One?
I don't know if it's technicallypossible in the next decade,
(19:31):
and I'm not even surepeople want that.
So just to get back to thisidea of-- my research area
is photogrammetry.
And so just to get back to thisconcept of, OK, you can take--
the metaverse could allow you totake a 3D image of your-- create
a 3D model of yourself and, allof a sudden, or of anything.
There's really coolaspects to that.
(19:53):
But you also then get intothe really potential dangers
of what we alreadysee with deepfakes
or if people making itlook like our president
is saying one thingor doing one thing.
And you get intosome serious danger.
So could you talk to usa little bit about what
may be the dangersthat we have to be
(20:13):
aware of as we move forwardinto the next 10 years
or whatever it might be?
Yeah.
And I think that's especiallyan interesting problem
because, for example, we alreadyhave a problem today with people
going on Twitter andpretending to be someone else.
Someone pretending to bethe president is obvious.
Like if the president startssaying a bunch of swears
(20:33):
on Twitter, that's probablynot-- it's probably
not the president.
But it is very easy toimpersonate someone else,
like someone you don't likeat your school, someone
you don't like at work.
You could create dozens ofaccounts impersonating someone
with just a photo anda couple of tweets
in a virtual environment likewe haven't really considered,
(20:57):
could you pretendto be someone else?
There's also new formsof digital harassment.
It took almost notime for Facebook
to have to create new rulesabout how close to people
could stand next to each otherin a virtual environment,
because originally someonecould walk right up to you
(21:18):
and just be rightin your face, making
it impossible to see what'sgoing on through your camera.
So Facebook saidor Meta, I suppose,
said, well, now we'llcreate a barrier.
So you have to be X distanceaway from each other
and you can't pushinto that space.
But then that raises questionsof could five people surround
you and make it impossibleto move in a virtual space?
(21:40):
Could they physicallyblockade you.
And these are justquestions that the systems,
assuming they eventake off at all,
have to be built with thepossibility of harassment
and impersonationand abuse and crime.
I guess just my lastquestion is, are you hopeful?
Do you have a positiveoutlook on what
the concept of themetaverse brings?
(22:02):
Or are you more worried?
Not that it's allrosy, but do you
think it's going to be anet positive the influx
of these technologiesand these experiences,
which is what the terms I willuse to describe the metaverse?
Or are you more worried aboutthe problems they bring,
which we've been kind of talkingabout for a little while?
I think in termsof the technologies
that we see today, augmentedreality, motion tracking,
(22:25):
photogrammetry,for example, those
are all technologiesthat excite me.
I love seeing whatyou can do with those.
I've been obsessed with,like virtual production.
I'm somewhat of afilm guy, and I'm
obsessed with virtualproductions and stuff.
That excites me.
I also get excitedabout platforms
that allow people to expressthemselves creatively.
If there becomes a virtualreality platform that
(22:47):
enables creative expression ina way we haven't seen before,
that does excite me.
However, I think that when wetalk about the metaverse, that
is where I get a littlemore cynical, I'll admit,
because when we talkabout technology
in vague andconceptual terms, it
becomes easier toobfuscate problems
(23:11):
with systems like harassmentor discrimination or whatnot.
I don't think we discuss theconcept of discrimination
in the metaverse.
And it makes itdifficult for people
who have to buythis stuff, people
who have to signon to the platforms
to know what they'rebeing involved with.
I've talked to a lot ofpeople about the metaverse.
And just like you, they havealmost no idea what it means.
(23:32):
And that's a tough placeto be in when someone's
asking you to buy a product,to use it every day, to sign on
to a service when you don'tknow what it's going to mean.
So what I try to doin my work is focus on
the specifics of whatactually exists as opposed
to grand visions.
The tech industry as a wholegenerally relies on futurism.
(23:58):
They rely on being able to tellyou that this is the future,
this is what's coming next.
This is the grandshift that's happening.
And sometimes, there arebig shifts that happen.
But a lot of times there'sa lot of technology
that's just good for somethings and that's fine.
It's OK for VR and AR andall these technologies
(24:19):
to be useful fora few cool tasks
rather than being a big shiftthat fundamentally changes
society every 10years because we
do need to consider thechallenges society already faces
before rushing to applytechnology to a social task it's
not suited for.
(24:39):
[MUSIC PLAYING]
We asked today, whatis the metaverse?
And while I feel that we knowa lot more about it than we
did at the startof the episode, it
is very clear that the metaverseitself is still being defined.
So the experts wetalked to agree we
aren't going to be livingin a Ready Player One world
(25:01):
anytime soon.
I know that's hardfor you, Scott
Yep.
Shedding tears right now.
It's not because of lackof vision or missing
link in the technology,it's just because we're
in the very early stages, wherecomputers and software haven't
yet catch up to the vision.
It's a path many researchers andcompanies are working on today.
Just hopefully theycan move faster.
I think that the morethat the metaverse becomes
(25:24):
part of our reality,the more we're
going to have toconsider the challenges
it's going to present.
Like, how could itmanifest similar problems
we see in the real world,like harassment or theft
or discrimination?
And being aheadof these problems
is a huge part of the battle.
(25:45):
And I think we're goingto see companies like Meta
handle it going forward.
So while disappointing,we're not
going to be in ReadyPlayer One immediately,
in the meantime or atleast the near future.
It's interesting, the metaversecould allow disabled people
to interact and experiencethings like seeing,
hear, and interactingwith others
in a way they currently can'tin their non metaverse lives.
(26:07):
And eventually, the metaversewill fully define itself,
and technology willstart living up
to the science fiction novels.
Based on what welearned today, I'm
expecting and hopinga much bigger impact
on how we work, play, and goabout our day to day lives.
Thanks so much for listeningto this episode of Data Nation.
This podcast is broughtto you by MIT's Institute
(26:29):
for Data Systems, and Society.
And if you want to learnmore about what IDSS does,
please follow us atMIT IDSS on Twitter
or visit our websiteat IDSS.Mit.edu.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
(00:03):
Welcome to Data Nation.
I'm Munther Dahleh, and I'm theDirector of the MIT's Institute
of Data, Systems, and Society.
Today on Data Nation,Liberty and Scott
are diving deepinto the metaverse.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
When we decided to do anepisode on the metaverse,
(00:26):
I have to be totally honestand say that I had to Google,
what is the metaverse?
And what I saw isthat most people have
tons of questions about it.
Is the metaverse our future?
Are we going to be livingwith virtual reality headsets
and completely disregardthe real physical world?
(00:48):
But before we can answerthose bigger questions,
we have to figure out and definewhat actually is the metaverse.
Well, hopefully it'sReady Player One.
But I guess if you wouldask the average person
on the street withthe metaverse,
you get a lot of blank staresand wildly different answers.
But I guess that's whywe're doing this episode.
So to be honest, we're probablymuch closer to the metaverse
(01:11):
than we realize.
We're going to startby figuring out
what that actually is, what wemean when we say the metaverse.
And we are going to take thesequestions to Joe Paradiso.
Joe is the DreyfoosProfessor at MIT
and directs the MIT Media Lab'sResponsive Environments Group.
And on a quick side note, theMIT Media Lab has in the past
(01:35):
really defined thefuture for society
when it comes tomedia and technology.
And Joe has also writtenover 350 publications
and really specializes inhow to augment and mediate
the human experience.
In the fall of 2021,Facebook renamed itself
Meta, which was reallythe first introduction
(01:57):
I had to the word metaverse.
But I at least understand thatthe metaverse isn't Facebook.
So from your perspective, fromthe MIT Media Lab perspective,
what do you seethe metaverse as?
These ideas go way, way back.
So the basic ideas are not new.
When we think, wedon't really call
it metaverse because that'sbecome such a loaded term now.
(02:20):
You say it, everybody knowswhat it is, but that in a way
hems it in to this kindof narrow definition
that maybe of networkedgame environments
where you kind ofplay games and can
get a call in virtual reality.
It's so much deeper than that.
We call it Xverseat the Media Lab.
And we've got lots ofprograms that have been
exploring the edges of this.
We're looking at nowkind of theming them
(02:40):
a little bit more than we have.
But it's about informationcoming from you
and coming to you in differentways at different times.
And already, we'reliving a bit in that.
I have my watch that'sconnected to my doorbell.
And somebody walks by, it maybuzz or I'll see a picture.
So there's a whole continuumthere that's really intriguing.
And I think that's howit's going to play out.
It's not just going tobe this virtual reality
(03:02):
headset we put on, suddenly,we're somewhere else.
It's going to bea whole continuum
of really abstracted presence.
I think that's one ofthe interesting things
about the future.
As we become moreand more connected,
it is about connection.
We start blurring thesense of where we are.
A lot of people areactually already
familiar with thisblurred sense of reality.
(03:24):
When COVID-19 pandemicswept the globe,
many individuals startedworking from home.
And for many, I guessthe typical work
day looked like this.
You'd sign into Slack.
You'd update yourstatus to active,
so your employerknows you're there.
You make sure youstay productive
because your workplacemonitors your project progress
(03:46):
and senses forcomputer movements
to make sure that youhaven't left your desk.
You join an afternoonvideo call via your laptop
with colleagues who arealso sitting in their homes.
And finally, you end yourworkday by signing out of Slack,
shutting down your computer,and you immediately
head back into your homelife after having just
(04:06):
worked an entire dayfrom your kitchen table.
So the line certainly becameblurred between what was real
and what was virtual.
So, Joe, I'm curious, isthis the kind of direction
the metaverse is going?
Because I know thatthere are other
examples that I might qualifyas a tool to metaverse.
For example, if Ihave my Apple iPhone
and I've got a filteron it, and it's
(04:29):
in superimposing a dog overa picture or something I'm
looking at, am I using a tool ofthe Xverse verse or metaverse?
Or is that part of that blurredreality that you're talking
about.
Would that fit the definition?
It's definitely on ramp to it,and I'd say it's a part of it,
especially when it's networked,because you do it in Snapchat,
like my daughters do, then allyour friends see you as that.
(04:52):
So that's yourimage at that point.
So using the dogfilter on my Snapchat
is an on ramp to the metaverse.
And this would be anexample of what we
call augmented reality or AR.
AR uses things like reallandscapes and digital scenes
to theoretically enhanceour current reality.
Augmented Reality, or AR, reallycame to the world's fingertips
in 2016.
And with the emergenceof Pokemon Go,
(05:14):
players would open theapp, which would then
use their camera andlocation to display
whatever the camera pointed at.
The app would displayPokemon on screen
as though they were rightthere in front of them.
Players could thencatch the monsters.
Eventually, developersadded trading
where players coulddirectly interact and trade
Pokemon with each other fromthe comfort of their own homes.
It's funny to say the metaverseand the future of humankind
(05:36):
may look a lot more likethe world of Pokemon Go
than you might think, wherethe metaverse uses reality
to support its platformrather than purely
be a virtual experience.
The most common waypeople are proposing
this future is through theuse of special AR glasses.
And these glassesare being developed
by brands like Meta or Appleor Snapchat or even Ray-Ban.
(05:58):
But I can't help but wonderif existing in these AR and VR
landscapes will actually be whatthe metaverse consists of, or is
this just some ideapurported by science fiction?
So Joe, when you saythe word "metaverse,"
the average personon the street,
their first thoughtwill probably be, oh,
like Ready Player One?
(06:19):
Or oh, I get an Oculusand I'm playing here.
You might get a moresophisticated nerd like myself
and be like, yeah, I've beenpart of the metaverse before.
I play a game calledEve Online, or, yeah,
I owned a house in Second Life.
The definition isfluid, so to speak.
Like, I don't think wewould agree that Facebook
is inventing the metaverse.
(06:40):
I think we shouldsay that Facebook
is trying to participate inthe concept of the metaverse.
Yeah.
They're trying togive it a big kick.
Yeah, exactly whatthe concept is.
They're still figuringit out as we are.
You made some good points.
And of course, you couldhave your house in Minecraft,
or you could have it alsoin Animal Crossing, which
is very interesting, becausepeople come and visit it.
(07:01):
You work on yourproperty, you share it.
And also the weatherin your island
can depend on the weatherthat's happening locally.
So you already seethis folding of reality
into this other universe.
And I think that's wherea lot of my work has been.
And I think that's where there'sa whole interesting frontier
interpreting the real worldthrough virtual constructs.
(07:22):
So you can actually havea closer connection to it.
I like that.
I'm going to stealinterpreting the real world
through virtual constructs,which again, it's
not quite a direct link to theaugmented reality we talked
about before.
So there's this conceptof uploading your brain
to a computer in the future.
When I hear somethinglike this, I
envision we're going to uploadour brain to the metaverse
(07:42):
via an Elon Musk brain link anddo a Zuckerberg-owned community
and play virtual footballowned by the NFL.
Are we basicallybuilding the metaverse
that I can do all the thingsin a non-physical world
that I can't doin the real world?
That's a very loaded question.
You can break down 20different ways, all of which
are kind ofinteresting actually.
So I think at the firstlevel, yeah, uploading
(08:04):
your brain is complicated.
Making a connection to yourbrain is still complicated,
but it's doable.
People have done it, and there'sgoing to be much more of it.
So if you want tolook at-- you go out,
let's say, you talk 50 years.
This is a comfortable number.
It could even be much sooner.
We don't know.
People will connect to virtualrealms directly, I suspect.
(08:24):
Lots of different takes on it.
Already, you havepeople that are
paralyzed that can move thingswith their motor neurons.
Elon's very involvedin that, but there
are lots of other peopleworking on that problem,
including people at theMedia Lab and at MIT.
But yeah, this is goingto be first for people
with disabilities.
Eventually, I think itwill have broader impact.
And yeah, like in the Matrixand in Simulacron-3 and World
(08:46):
on a Wire, stuff like that.
When we talk aboutthe metaverse,
we're talking aboutcreating another environment
in which peopleinteract everything
from economies to how we live.
Do we think this is agood thing for society,
that this technology is coming?
Are you excited forit or are you afraid?
It's a bit of both.
Even here at MIT,Tom Malone used
to talk a lot about collectiveintelligence, at least
(09:06):
to our point of view.
We're afraid of anykind of a socialism.
I think identity and individualidentity is very important.
So if we approach thiskind of a collectivism,
what's the roleof the individual?
I think it's critical.
Or could individuals be dynamicthings that just form out
of combinations of people?
I don't know.
It's going to be verydifferent if you go out
far enough, maybe even in thenear-term of a decade or so.
(09:29):
And I think it's going tolead to a lot of capability.
On the other hand, it leadsto tremendous opportunity
for indoctrination becauseyou know a lot about people,
you know a lotabout their state.
You can approach them withsomething at the right time.
And for learning, I thinkthat's great because you learn,
the cloud learns, weall learn together.
It's another future for this.
It's already happeningto some extent,
but now it's brought up close.
So the whole division of whatthe cloud learns about I learn
(09:52):
and exactly how I learnit and what context
is something that'sgoing to be very dynamic.
To wrap this up, we've justtalked about the negatives.
What are some examples of thetrue, incredible positives
that are going to be able tocome out of this for society?
When we did our hourHere&There project at Tidmarsh,
the cranberry farm, that's awetland that we have sensors all
over the place and tunnel themthrough the virtual worlds,
(10:14):
we had an app where you wearbone conduction headphones.
It didn't cover your ears, itjust pushed into your head.
So you could hear throughvibrations on your skull,
essentially.
It was fairly innocuous.
You really didn't notice it.
But you heard thesethings as well as hearing
through your ears.
And we had it channeledinto the microphones.
We had all over the placeto pick up the wildlife.
And it knew where you werebecause you had GPS and knew
(10:35):
the angle of your head, becausewe had inertial measurement unit
to track it.
And we tunnel in theaudio from these sources
as if you were hearing them.
So they move with yourhead, so on and so forth.
And it was remarkable.
I was expanded.
I was not diminished.
I didn't want to take it off.
I put on a VR headset, it'skind of fun to play some stuff,
but I get fatigued, I get sick.
I'm relieved when I take it off.
(10:55):
I didn't want to take this off.
It augmented me ratherthan diminish me.
And I think we have a chance todevelop interfaces and systems
that really augmentpeople in different ways
and don't diminish them.
In all aspects, I thinkthat's what we have to go for
and I think there'stremendous promise there.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
I think we definitely have aclear view on the metaverse.
(11:19):
But I also think it's fairto say that a lot of people
have mixed feelings abouthow this will change society.
Joe mentioned in hisexperience with virtual reality
that he felt thattechnology added
something refreshing to life.
He didn't feel that it tookaway or cheapened reality.
(11:40):
But are there validreasons for people
to be concernedabout the increasing
use of metaverse technology?
So that's a good question.
One of the things peopleare concerned about
is how hard willit be for people
to access the metaversefrom a financial standpoint.
In order to make themetaverse inclusive,
businesses need to beable to securely exchange
(12:00):
funds that are not exclusive toany one country or continent.
So it seems likelythat the metaverse will
turn to cryptocurrencieslike Bitcoin or Ethereum,
and some transactionsmay also take the form
of non-fungible tokens or NFTs.
And cryptocurrenciesaside, will the cost
of the equipment like VR and ARglasses create an equity gap?
Another thing that peopleare really worried about
(12:21):
is obviously safety.
Recently, Meta wastesting their VR platform
called Horizon Worldswhen users alerted them
of this totally new kind ofthreat, this virtual physical
and sexual harassment.
And meta responded by adding afeature that created a 4-foot
(12:41):
virtual bubble betweennon-friend players.
But what happens when a userdoes what's called modding
or modifying the game and theycreate a program that allows
them to violate this 4-footbarrier and impose on the player
in some way?
How will the metaversepunish virtual crimes?
(13:04):
There are clearlya lot of questions,
concerns for what themetaverse would actually
look like day-to-day.
So we're going to take thesequestions to Eric Ravenscraft.
So when you Google,what is the metaverse,
Eric's article is thefirst one to come up.
Eric is a writer for Wired,where he has guided readers
on how to use technology fornearly a decade for publications
like Lifehacker, oneZero,and The New York Times.
(13:25):
The metaverse issuch a big term,
and it takes a bit to wrapour minds around what the word
metaverse actually means.
So we're asking everyone.
We talked with Joe Paradisofrom MIT's Media Lab
about what themetaverse means to him.
We wanted to talkto you as well.
How would you explainthe metaverse?
I sort of have twobranching answers to that.
One is that it is sort ofa collection-- companies
(13:49):
are referring to a collectionof technologies ranging
from virtual reality,augmented reality, a collection
of different types of sensorsand networking devices
that enable motiontracking or whatnot that
go beyond the capabilities ofjust what we typically think
of as the internet,which is your phone
or your computerconnecting to a website.
(14:09):
And that is a very wide arrayof technologies, some of which
even work in opposingdirections to each other.
The second definitionthat I think
is more accuratefor the metaverse
as a phrase is that itis a marketing term.
The conversationaround the metaverse
kicked off whenFacebook announced
that it was rebranding toMeta because it's planning
(14:31):
to build the metaverse.
So this idea of avirtual world where
everyone willsocialize and buy stuff
and there will be a lot oftransactions for digital clothes
and a merchant to takea cut of those sales
is a narrative that Facebook hasa vested interest in promoting.
But the narrative ofwhat the metaverse is
(14:52):
and the technologythat actually exists
are very often divergentfrom each other.
So one of theproblems that we've
seen-- so if we describethe metaverse just
for the purposes of thisquestion as what I imagine
it to be, where it's like VRheadsets or Oculus headsets
(15:14):
and you're living inthis virtual reality,
I would imagine that todo interesting things,
you're going to need stuff.
Like you're goingto need equipment,
you're going to need software,you're going to need stuff,
and that there's a huge cost asthings goes on and on to that.
Is there a chance thatthe metaverse or what
I imagine the metaverseto be is actually
(15:34):
going to end up creatingsort of an equity situation?
It's going to makeit so that people
who have money orwho can buy stuff
are going to be able toparticipate in these things.
And people who can't.
Or is there any issue withthe metaverse in terms
of the socioeconomic aspectof our country or our world?
Absolutely.
(15:54):
Yes.
I think that we alreadysee that a little bit
in the internet of today.
You need a laptop or a phone.
You need a cell connectionin order to connect.
And those things are relativelycheap and relatively portable.
You can put alaptop on your lap,
you can carry aphone in your pocket.
But let's say that the metaverseis going to be VR-based.
If you have a VR headset--
(16:15):
I have a Quest 2 in my house.
And in order to use that, Ineed about a living room's
worth of space to set upand us, that. which means,
among other things,I need a living room.
I briefly lived in DC, and thereare very small apartments there.
I'm not sure Icould allocate space
for a metaverse workstation.
And headsets are already likethey're getting less expensive,
(16:36):
but they're not usefulenough to justify
the expense in the sameway that a phone does.
And they're on top of a phone,they're on top of a laptop.
So it's one more device to buy.
There's space neededin order to use them.
We don't know what bandwidthrequirements would be for these
if we got to a really highdetailed virtual analog
(16:58):
for a physical world.
So I do think thatthere are absolutely
socioeconomic challengesto getting people
to use the hardware for this.
And then it sort of createsa chicken and egg problem
that if not everyonecan use the hardware,
how do you developthe software for it?
And if no one'sdeveloping the software,
why buy the hardware for it?
So there are a lot ofchallenges in getting
even a hypothetical virtualworld like this up and running.
(17:22):
But as we definedearlier, the metaverse
is not just what aheadset you put on,
augmented realityphones, glasses.
If you and I and Liberty aretalking about this 10 years
from now, where do youthink it's going to be?
Is it going to be closerto Ready Player One?
Or is it going tobe closer to we
have a lot of individualgadgets that augment our world
and allow us tointeract differently,
(17:42):
but not necessarily ensconcedor envelop our lives?
Yeah.
And I love talkingabout what may happen,
but the one thingI am comfortable
saying is we will not beliving in Ready Player One.
It's challenging becausepart of the issue
is that we don't reallyhave a good sense of scale
of the technologicalrequirements for a Ready Player
(18:04):
One style metaverse.
Intel came outrecently and described
that the amountof computing power
needed for somethinglike that is
like a thousand-foldbeyond what we have now.
But in the next five years,we might get 10-fold,
it's just the scale required.
And as processing powergets more powerful,
we tend to fill that up.
(18:24):
There's a reason that videogames don't load instantly,
even though we have massivelymore powerful systems now
than we had 20 years ago.
It's because when thecomputers get more powerful,
what we ask of themgets more intense.
So Fortnite couldbe photorealistic,
but you couldn't do it with100 people in an instance.
So that I don't think islikely or even possible.
(18:48):
But I do think that we have alot of exciting technologies
that could help usaugment our world.
Like one thing I'mreally interested in
is a photogrammetry.
There's an app for aniPhone called polycam.
You basically take a fewhundred photos of an object
or you just take avideo walking around it.
And it will spit out a3D model of that object.
(19:08):
You could take thatinto a video game,
you could make amovie out of that.
You could build yourown virtual sets.
Those kind of things arereally exciting because that
lets you connect your phoneto a virtual environment,
to real practicalthings you can make.
And that I think,is very exciting.
But will that rise to thelevel of Ready Player One?
I don't know if it's technicallypossible in the next decade,
(19:31):
and I'm not even surepeople want that.
So just to get back to thisidea of-- my research area
is photogrammetry.
And so just to get back to thisconcept of, OK, you can take--
the metaverse could allow you totake a 3D image of your-- create
a 3D model of yourself and, allof a sudden, or of anything.
There's really coolaspects to that.
(19:53):
But you also then get intothe really potential dangers
of what we alreadysee with deepfakes
or if people making itlook like our president
is saying one thingor doing one thing.
And you get intosome serious danger.
So could you talk to usa little bit about what
may be the dangersthat we have to be
(20:13):
aware of as we move forwardinto the next 10 years
or whatever it might be?
Yeah.
And I think that's especiallyan interesting problem
because, for example, we alreadyhave a problem today with people
going on Twitter andpretending to be someone else.
Someone pretending to bethe president is obvious.
Like if the president startssaying a bunch of swears
(20:33):
on Twitter, that's probablynot-- it's probably
not the president.
But it is very easy toimpersonate someone else,
like someone you don't likeat your school, someone
you don't like at work.
You could create dozens ofaccounts impersonating someone
with just a photo anda couple of tweets
in a virtual environment likewe haven't really considered,
(20:57):
could you pretendto be someone else?
There's also new formsof digital harassment.
It took almost notime for Facebook
to have to create new rulesabout how close to people
could stand next to each otherin a virtual environment,
because originally someonecould walk right up to you
(21:18):
and just be rightin your face, making
it impossible to see what'sgoing on through your camera.
So Facebook saidor Meta, I suppose,
said, well, now we'llcreate a barrier.
So you have to be X distanceaway from each other
and you can't pushinto that space.
But then that raises questionsof could five people surround
you and make it impossibleto move in a virtual space?
(21:40):
Could they physicallyblockade you.
And these are justquestions that the systems,
assuming they eventake off at all,
have to be built with thepossibility of harassment
and impersonationand abuse and crime.
I guess just my lastquestion is, are you hopeful?
Do you have a positiveoutlook on what
the concept of themetaverse brings?
(22:02):
Or are you more worried?
Not that it's allrosy, but do you
think it's going to be anet positive the influx
of these technologiesand these experiences,
which is what the terms I willuse to describe the metaverse?
Or are you more worried aboutthe problems they bring,
which we've been kind of talkingabout for a little while?
I think in termsof the technologies
that we see today, augmentedreality, motion tracking,
(22:25):
photogrammetry,for example, those
are all technologiesthat excite me.
I love seeing whatyou can do with those.
I've been obsessed with,like virtual production.
I'm somewhat of afilm guy, and I'm
obsessed with virtualproductions and stuff.
That excites me.
I also get excitedabout platforms
that allow people to expressthemselves creatively.
If there becomes a virtualreality platform that
(22:47):
enables creative expression ina way we haven't seen before,
that does excite me.
However, I think that when wetalk about the metaverse, that
is where I get a littlemore cynical, I'll admit,
because when we talkabout technology
in vague andconceptual terms, it
becomes easier toobfuscate problems
(23:11):
with systems like harassmentor discrimination or whatnot.
I don't think we discuss theconcept of discrimination
in the metaverse.
And it makes itdifficult for people
who have to buythis stuff, people
who have to signon to the platforms
to know what they'rebeing involved with.
I've talked to a lot ofpeople about the metaverse.
And just like you, they havealmost no idea what it means.
(23:32):
And that's a tough placeto be in when someone's
asking you to buy a product,to use it every day, to sign on
to a service when you don'tknow what it's going to mean.
So what I try to doin my work is focus on
the specifics of whatactually exists as opposed
to grand visions.
The tech industry as a wholegenerally relies on futurism.
(23:58):
They rely on being able to tellyou that this is the future,
this is what's coming next.
This is the grandshift that's happening.
And sometimes, there arebig shifts that happen.
But a lot of times there'sa lot of technology
that's just good for somethings and that's fine.
It's OK for VR and AR andall these technologies
(24:19):
to be useful fora few cool tasks
rather than being a big shiftthat fundamentally changes
society every 10years because we
do need to consider thechallenges society already faces
before rushing to applytechnology to a social task it's
not suited for.
(24:39):
[MUSIC PLAYING]
We asked today, whatis the metaverse?
And while I feel that we knowa lot more about it than we
did at the startof the episode, it
is very clear that the metaverseitself is still being defined.
So the experts wetalked to agree we
aren't going to be livingin a Ready Player One world
(25:01):
anytime soon.
I know that's hardfor you, Scott
Yep.
Shedding tears right now.
It's not because of lackof vision or missing
link in the technology,it's just because we're
in the very early stages, wherecomputers and software haven't
yet catch up to the vision.
It's a path many researchers andcompanies are working on today.
Just hopefully theycan move faster.
I think that the morethat the metaverse becomes
(25:24):
part of our reality,the more we're
going to have toconsider the challenges
it's going to present.
Like, how could itmanifest similar problems
we see in the real world,like harassment or theft
or discrimination?
And being aheadof these problems
is a huge part of the battle.
(25:45):
And I think we're goingto see companies like Meta
handle it going forward.
So while disappointing,we're not
going to be in ReadyPlayer One immediately,
in the meantime or atleast the near future.
It's interesting, the metaversecould allow disabled people
to interact and experiencethings like seeing,
hear, and interactingwith others
in a way they currently can'tin their non metaverse lives.
(26:07):
And eventually, the metaversewill fully define itself,
and technology willstart living up
to the science fiction novels.
Based on what welearned today, I'm
expecting and hopinga much bigger impact
on how we work, play, and goabout our day to day lives.
Thanks so much for listeningto this episode of Data Nation.
This podcast is broughtto you by MIT's Institute
(26:29):
for Data Systems, and Society.
And if you want to learnmore about what IDSS does,
please follow us atMIT IDSS on Twitter
or visit our websiteat IDSS.Mit.edu.
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