September 20, 2023 • 63 mins
Are you ready to transform your parent-child relationship? Join me as I host a fascinating conversation with Miriam Campbell, founder of Skills for Connection, who enlightens us on the art of fostering robust connections. Miriam's journey from being a speech therapist to a social worker serves as the backbone of our discourse, where she generously shares her insights and tools utilized to enhance relationships and communication skills among parents and children.
Our conversation takes an in-depth look at the essence of establishing a shared "bubble-double," a realm that encapsulates the interaction between two individuals. Miriam illuminates the profound impact of understanding social skills, spatial awareness, and recognizing enmeshment and self-differentiation in relationship dynamics. We also tackle the vital role of self-awareness and the significance of developing an attuned sense of our bodies to better grasp our internal experiences.
We also delved into the often-encountered resistance to child guidance and the value of recognizing the multifaceted parts of ourselves. The sensitive issue of divorce and its impact on children also forms a part of our conversation. Miriam imparts her wealth of knowledge as a therapist, providing valuable insights on how families can rebuild connection and security after such a seismic disruption. We cap off our enriching conversation by examining the intriguing gender differences in decision-making and the profound influence of the body-mind connection on personal growth. This conversation is a goldmine of knowledge for anyone seeking to enhance their personal relationships and understanding of self.
Miriam can be reached at skillsforconnection@gmail.com
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hello and welcome to dating, marriage and divorce
conversations where we analyze,navigate and troubleshoot all
stages of your romantic life.
I'm your host, igor Meistelman,a divorce attorney turned
relationship coach.
Hello everybody, welcome back.
I'm really excited to have thisopportunity to sit down with
(00:31):
Mary Campbell, who is a socialworker.
She also has a business calledskills for connection and she
focuses on working with parentsand helping them work on all
sorts of skills and improvingtheir relationship with their
kids.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Hi, mary, hi thanks for having me here Appreciate it
.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
You're welcome, so I think it'd be great to start off
with if you could maybe justshare a little bit about
yourself.
How did you get into the lineof work that you do?
What do you like about it?
What?
Speaker 2 (00:59):
do you not like about it?
So the reason I got into it ishonestly because of listeners
that are here, because I'mpassionate about connection and
growth, because I know that Ineed to do it for myself and I
know that that's what we're allhere for.
So for somebody to tune in andlisten to a podcast like this
means that that's what they'realso passionate about.
(01:20):
So thank you guys for being theinspiration behind all this,
because without peopleinterested in growth, then if
you want to help support growth,you need to have people,
because we all work together.
So that's how I got into theline.
Of work is I'm passionate aboutconnection and I really want to
help kids specifically withconnection, because I feel like
(01:43):
when our kids could get thesupport when they're young, then
they could have just a moreenriched whole life and in their
adulthood they're able todevelop deeper relationships and
all the things that we wantconflict resolution and, you
know, self-awareness and beingable to expand to their biggest
selves and when we can starthelping kids when they're young.
(02:03):
So I actually started out as aspeech therapist because I
wanted to give tools.
I wanted concrete tools to givepeople to help them with
communication and relationshipskills, and then I quickly found
I needed to address theemotional component, because
we're all one big self with headand heart and mouths and
muscles and, you know, air andall the pieces that make us us,
(02:27):
and I felt like I needed morebackground in that.
So I trained as a social workerand then I was working with
kids for many years and foundthat they really do need to have
more than two hours or, youknow, the most two hours a week
of therapy.
They needed their parents toknow what to do.
So then I segued into workingprimarily with parents and
teachers and helping them knowhow to naturally use these tools
(02:51):
, so that way the child's notgoing to a very contrived
session and navigating thesetools, but actually using them
in real life.
So I teach parents how to teachtheir kids social skills and
I'm loving it.
A really funny thing that Ireally did start with my
intention to work with kids.
That was my intention and theirony is that through teaching
(03:12):
parents these tools, is thatparents are finding that it's
actually helping them in theirown relationships.
So, like, which is not?
I mean, it makes sense because,like, whenever you, you know,
start the growth, you knowprocess, like you can't move one
part of the dance without theother, the dance just moving,
and it makes sense.
But it wasn't my intention andI'm.
It's just so incrediblygratifying to hear parents take
(03:36):
these tools for themselves andto when they're trying to help
their child have emotionalregulation and they're
developing emotional regulationand they're trying to help their
child have more self-awarenessand understanding how their self
is impacting the other and thatengagement and that interaction
and they're finding that it'shelpful in their own
relationships with their child,but even with their spouses and
(03:58):
even with their co-workers, andit's just really beautiful to
witness these beautiful parentsand beautiful families.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
This last point resonates very much for me.
I was actually invited to givea talk in a synagogue in the in
the neighborhood where I live inPhoenix and I at the end just
basically there was enoughquestions where at the end I
just said to the parents youknow when you're going to be
parenting, but when you engagein parenting you're, you're
raising two people, your childand yourself.
Yes, yes, exactly, and the morethat you come to terms with that
(04:30):
, the more you'll be successfulin raising the kid.
And I think I think what somepeople are really resonated
because the focus so easilyshifts into what do I have to do
with the child and how do Iaddress this child and almost
kind of fall by the sidewayrealization that but you're an
active participant in thatjourney and so how you're?
(04:50):
showing up is also impacting howthe child is showing up, and I
saw how some people was likekind of like a light bulb moment
while I think about my ownparticipation in that kind of
entire journey that's takingplace yes, very much, and.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
I also find like it's empowering for parents to.
You know, sometimes like theparent will come and they'll
tell me like my child very rigidthinking, or my child's too
bossy, or my child is bullying,or my child is a victim, or my
child, you know, can't sit still, or my child's forgetful,
whatever the skills are.
And when we are in the mode ofseeing our children like that,
(05:28):
then we sort of forget our pieceof it.
So, like when a parent tells memy child is rigid, it's like
wait, that's a little bit of arigid statement you made, parent
.
Now I'm not saying it like ha haha, look at you, you're doing
this.
I'm saying it like with themost compassion and love,
because my husband's Rebi Rebiand I remember him telling,
telling us one time like he said, like you know, if let's say
(05:50):
like, they say like okay, aparent has bipolar, then their
kid has bipolar.
It's not like oh well, becauseof genes, it had to happen like
that, they had it because hisfather had it, and he's like no,
no, my son doesn't have like alimited amount of cards in the
deck.
You know he's able to like.
It's not like okay, I have fivebipolar cards.
Okay, any me, any mine and it'slike oh, let me give this child
(06:10):
to this parent specifically,because they're going to help
each other.
So, like this parent, who mighthave self judgment for whatever
challenge they have, they getangry quickly and then they're
able to see like oh, my childwas born like this.
Like this is the challenge thatthey were given and they're
able to have compassion for the,for their child, because they
see, like my child didn't chooseto get to have a, you know,
(06:30):
short temper.
This is how Hashem made them.
Oh, hashem also made me parentslike this.
Like they're able to have thatself love because they see that
their child didn't makethemselves with their character
challenges.
Like the child was born likethat.
So it sort of allows them tohave their own healing process.
And this child now has thisamazing opportunity because no
(06:53):
one in the world will understandthem like their parent, because
no one else has this same typeof personality, the same type of
dynamic internal challenge.
Like you also need to thinkthey're stuck to be on exactly
like this.
Like, oh, your father also has.
That he can totally resonatewith you.
And then it can often serve aslike a trigger for the parent
(07:15):
because like, oh, my gosh, likeif they haven't yet resolved
that.
Oh my gosh, why am I soperfectionist that I have to
have my sock on perfectly likethis?
Why am I so sensory?
Why am I so they're able to?
They they're sort of in thisdynamic where, through their
child, they have to confrontthemselves and they have this
amazing process of being able toengage in this self journey of
(07:37):
parenthood of you know what youwere saying raising themselves
to, to be able to help theirchild and, like I always say
this like if Facebook orwhatever could learn how to
monetize love, we'd really be introuble, like right now.
They're really good at likemonetizing, like desire and fear
, you know.
So the advertisements and stuff, but if they could monetize
(07:58):
love, you know, like we're gonnareally be in trouble.
Because parents have so muchlove for their children, they're
able to really overcomeincredible obstacles within them
, their own selves, to be ableto support their child's like
they might not have been able toaddress their own.
You know shame that they havewith their perfectionism, with
their socks or whatever, butbecause they have this child now
(08:21):
, they're in a situation wheredaily, many times a day, every
time their child takes off theirsock, they now get to re-engage
with it and it doesn't meanthat it's perfect, but they are
engaged and it's just soincredibly powerful and
beautiful to recognize like noneof it's an accident and we are
given the exact children that weneed to grow ourselves, with
(08:41):
all of their beautiful strugglesand beautiful strengths and
that whole process.
It's just like there aren'treally words magic.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
The word came to my mind was magic.
I want to step back and ask youa question about a word you
used and it might be maybe alittle bit sort of a
philosophical or psychologicalin nature, but I'm very curious
to hear when you think the wordconnection I mean in in terms of
human relationships, whetherit's parent to child spouses.
(09:13):
When you think of the wordconnection, can you speak a
little bit more to that?
What does it look like?
What does it mean when we arein the state of connection?
Speaker 2 (09:23):
it's so funny.
I actually wrote a book, achildren's book, about this.
It's called bubble double andit's about connection.
It came about I was workingwith a very darling child,
around seven years old,diagnosed with autism, and he
struggled with greetings, whichwhat that looked like was.
(09:44):
He would come into a room andbe very frustrated because he
would talk to the person andthey would sort of have no idea
that they were.
He was talking to them becausehe didn't address them and it
would also mean at the end ofand, and you know, in the middle
of the classroom he couldtheoretically leave because he
didn't appreciate that space.
And so, you know, I was arelatively new therapist and I
(10:06):
was doing all the things thatthe research shows you're
supposed to do.
You do role playing, you drawit out so they could have a
concept, and you know, of sayinghello, saying goodbye, and at
the end of a really great,wonderful session went, really
great, he just left, he didn'tsay goodbye.
I was like, oh, I should quitthis field.
(10:30):
That was my very strongrealization yeah, I need to stop
working in this field becausethis doesn't work.
Yeah, you know, I was doingeverything right and it wasn't
working.
And Husham gave me this idea ofbecause he didn't, he didn't
understand that we were sharinga connected space, that we were
engaging and there was sort oflike this sacred bubble space
(10:52):
that we both were inhabiting,that we both were, you know,
engaging with.
And so this idea of like thisvisualization of like a shared
bubble double where I have aself and I am in my own bubble
and the other is in their ownbubble and they are self in
their own bubble, and then wesort of have this magic, if you
were saying thing that developswhen the two bubbles engage, it
(11:15):
doesn't have to be in person, orit could be on the phone, or it
doesn't have to be, you know,possibly you have to be as arms
like the stents.
That's not true.
I have to make Husham additionand engage you with somebody,
you know.
But it's sort of this bubblethat forms around the two of the
two people, the two bubbles,and that's a bubble double and
that's the sort of sacred spaceof connection that these two
people get to engage with andshare space, and there are rules
(11:39):
.
That's how I teach.
Social skills is within thisconnection.
It's not about you have to be,have, you know, conform to
social niceties because you haveto conform, or it's not that
you have to, you know, pleasethem.
It's a matter of I want toconnect with the other and I
want to make sure that I'mmaking a, making a space that
this, this bubble, the sacredbubble, can thrive.
(12:01):
And in order to get into thisbubble, I have to say hello.
In order to leave this bubble,I'd say goodbye.
You know, if I am too too far,the bubble, they can't hear me.
It's practically the bubble.
It's, it pops, it stretches,it's too far.
If I go into somebody else'sbubble space without permission
you know spatial awareness, I'min their space then it pops.
This bubble it's just like theother person's, like I don't
(12:21):
really want to be in this spacewith you.
It's too uncomfortable for me.
Um, and that's really in my mindis there are specific skills
that we can learn to help uswith connection.
Connection is this.
I think it's a spiritual thing.
I really do.
I don't think there's any Like.
How could a person feelconnected to somebody across the
(12:41):
country, across the world?
You know it's a spiritual thing.
It's not space or matter.
Yet there are specific thingsthat we can do that will help
build connection, and that'swhat I teach parents how to do
for themselves and how to do fortheir kids, because there are
skills that help us developconnection and help honor the
sacred space of the shared spacethat we have when we're with
(13:04):
another human Something that youwere reminding me as I was
listening to this description is, in my trainings, a term that's
constantly brought up is thisidea of enmeshment versus self
differentiation.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
And I just find, you know, I mostly work with couples
and it's interesting the wayyou're describing how we need to
think about this is skill thateven a child learning is to
learn.
What happens when most of usare sort of schooling, and both
education and even any technicaltraining pretty much lacks, is
(13:43):
lacking in teaching these ideassuch as there's you, there's me
and that's the beginning of thestory versus, you know, one of
us has to win and one of us hasto lose in order for me to
experience aliveness or toexperience connection.
Versus there could be twoequally honored, respected
(14:05):
beings and through that a real,genuine connection emerges where
both are celebrated, both areacknowledged, and it's
interesting for me to hear youknow here's where you're trying
to help parents and I understandhow deal with the child, and
I'm mostly dealing with twoadults you know often who are
also happens to be parents, butthey're two adults and they're
(14:28):
essentially living out a displayof lack of the skills that
you're describing and I alwaysfeel like I have to sort of take
them back from scratch andteach them once again what it
means to acknowledge there'syour space, there's my space and
here's how we're going tonegotiate, engaging each other
space and when it's okay toenter the others space, what
(14:51):
it's not.
It's very interesting how a lotof people unfortunately it was
just skipped, jumped over andthey're hoping to kind of wing
it and with just with kind ofsheer intuition and some common
sense, to kind of make their waythrough something as complex as
a marriage and what it means tolive with another human being.
(15:12):
And I think what people oftenfind is that it's just not
enough.
Relying on intuition and justkind of your own inner sense of
what you, what you think makessense, is very often at least,
is just not enough.
And being exposed to conceptslike this, like where there's
two people and therefore we haveto negotiate how we engage I
(15:35):
call it rules of engagement likehow do we engage each other?
Do we just assume right?
Like something as simple as areyou available for a
conversation?
Well, I'll just start talkingto you.
I don't even ask wait, is thisa good time for you?
Maybe it's not a good time.
There's something as basicretired from work.
Right, that's right, that'sright.
So it's interesting howconnection could be very sort of
(15:59):
tender, sensitive space.
And on the one hand, it seemslike human beings, generally
speaking, crave connection.
One experience connection.
We feel alive when we feel thesense of connection to the world
around us.
And yet there's, it seems to melike this is not enough
discussion, education, awarenessabout how that connection is
(16:24):
formed, how it's nurtured in ahealthy way.
We sort of kind of kind ofcollide and arbitrary moments
and hope that that is enough togenerate connection.
And I find that I'm constantlytrying to explain to adults that
you have to nurture the space.
(16:44):
It can just operate inautopilot.
Do you have any thoughts ofyour perspective?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yeah, it's sort of.
It's sort of going back to whatI said about, like finding that
the parents are gaining fromthese things.
And you know, I worked with thesame constructs I've broken it
down to still constructs becauseI wanted to make it something
that a teacher could use in aclassroom and like I have, like
these worksheets that they canjust, you know, all the time, be
using, like how do I, you knowwhat's her perspective, what's
(17:13):
my perspective?
And that's, with everythingyou're doing, a, you know, a
social studies lesson.
What's the north's perspective,once the south's perspective?
You know what's this, thisgeneral's perspective, what's
that general's perspective?
You know what is this leaderand that layman and whatever it
is?
All the components are allbuilt in it to the fabric of our
(17:34):
lives.
The interesting thing that Ifind is this first step is
always going to be aboutdeveloping self.
There isn't a way to for for aparent to be present, or for a
parent to be present, a spouseto be present, another spouse,
without first having found thetenderness in themselves.
You can't touch anotherperson's tenderness, you know,
(17:54):
like, reach out, like to theirsweet smile, this child smile
looking at you.
You know if you are rushed orstressed, but we live in a world
where everyone's very rushedand stressed, so, like, what are
you supposed to do so for?
When we parent ourselves andwhen we tap into our own
internal selves, you know who amI and it's like, oh, I have
(18:16):
this intense in my shoulders, oh, I had this feeling in my
stomach, you know, and like it'svery concrete and we can teach
our kids that very concretely.
You know that very concretething that is universal.
You know couples who aredealing with this, children who
are dealing with this, coworkers who are dealing with
this, co workers.
So everybody at our humanenesshas this body that is going to
(18:40):
giving us information about how,internally, we're receiving
things.
It doesn't mean how we'rethinking about things, but if
you tell us just even like onthe most basic check, in level
of like what's happening righthere, oh, my breath is short, my
leg is jiggling.
You know even just that thatsimple tune in allows us to
develop that skill, and so Ialways say this.
(19:03):
You know, people who'velistened to a lot of my podcasts
know this already.
But yeah, I always say that yougo to you know an age-old and
you ask them like, oh, do youhave as much self awareness as
you possibly could have.
You know, like it's laughable,like they'll be like, what are
you talking about?
Like it's a spiritual thing.
I'm a spiritual make up, so Ican't ever fully know myself, to
(19:25):
fully be self aware, like as Ichained in and develop and
evolve and then to say to themare you as connected with the
other as possible?
So, like, no matter what aperson's starting point is,
there's always space for growth.
You know, and some people hadchildhoods where they were
raised in ways that they arevery attuned to that internal
tenderness, as you say.
And there's not, like itdoesn't even really matter
(19:48):
because there's no one who'sdone the work.
When I say done, meaning notinvolved in done, as in
completed the work.
There's no one who's completedlike I'm not.
I grow all the time in myskills and that's my.
My litmus test for myself isn'tdid I never get angry?
My litmus test was I engaged inthe struggle, you know, because
that's really what it's aboutis like, am I helping my child
(20:09):
become more themselves?
Oh, are they going to beperfect when they leave our
houses?
Are they going to be perfect,you know, are our marriage is
going to be perfect?
No, but like oh, was I moreself aware and more aware of.
Like oh, I was feeling, youknow, hurt and felt like unloved
.
So then I responded how comeyou didn't take the trash out
like we're engaging in themundane arm are stressful lives
(20:36):
perhaps, but we're just retuninginto that internal tenderness
and then be able to engage morefrom that space.
You know, as part of theprocess, as part of the.
You know the developing concept.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
So the question I have for you is that I find you
know this concept of personalitytypes right, and whether you
take any grams, you take anyother.
You know like please understandme junk hearsay approach my or
breaks my or breaks yeah mythanks, my personality test.
(21:12):
The idea, though, is that peopleare wired differently, and that
I mean there are manydimensions and factors to
discuss, but if we just sort ofspliced out the personality as
one feature, for example, if youtake a personality type, that
is its nature is it's wired forconnection.
(21:33):
A person who's very tune likefours are, for example, in that
model, one through nine.
A number four is, like, knownas essentially almost like
endowed with this incredibleemotional intelligence, very
easily tunes to other people,but then you could pick another
number where it's like almostlike incompetence in the realm
(21:56):
of emotional intelligence.
You know they're the first oneto be like haha, what is
somebody crying right now?
Really, right, and the personcan be like crying in front of
their face, right?
There's such a disconnect andlack of awareness, and I'm just
I'm wondering how that plays outin terms of trying to, let's
say, teach, guide, help.
(22:18):
Different people of differentpersonality types develop these
skills.
I would imagine the ones thatare more have like proclivity
towards already being able tohave the tools.
They'll sort of just blossominto it, and the ones who don't
either might put up resistance,might even question its validity
(22:41):
or its usefulness.
And I'm just wondering if, ifyou, if you kind of seen any of
that experience like you'resitting down with these parents
and you're like, well, you know,we're going to learn more self
awareness, we're going to learnmore about how to tune to the,
you know, to the kid, and oneparent is like almost crying so
excited to connect and I waslike huh, what are you talking
about?
This is like you know this islike macro physics.
(23:04):
You know astronomy.
I have no clue what you'resaying right now to me.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Yeah, I'm laughing because that's the heart of it.
That's exactly it Like, that islike so many of so many of our
children.
And I'm going to talk aboutchildren not because it doesn't
relate to marriages and notbecause it doesn't relate to
mother or father, but becauseit's easier to critique just
getting people who are not us.
(23:31):
You know, anyone who'slistening to this podcast is not
a child.
So yeah what I would say is oneof the things that I tell
parents.
This is that we're not ourgoals never to change another
human being, a person with theirmakeup, has a very distinct
role that we need them to playin this world.
You know the like.
Society needs rubbles and thesociety also needs sticklers,
(23:56):
and society needs people who arelike why are you even talking
about this and deciding like?
None of it's an accident?
And it would be damaging, Iwould say, to try and say that
the other person is not, is notwhat they need to be.
That being said, connection isharder when somebody relates to
(24:16):
the world in a way that'sdifferent than you.
Now, let's say you have tworebels relating.
They might have a lot to relateto, but they might not have so
much to grow from each other, inwhich case they wouldn't be
able to be growing themselves.
Because it is through ourengagement with people who are
other that we actually extendourselves, because otherwise I'm
just living in my life withinthe dimensions that I exist in
(24:39):
and I'm born in those dimensionsand I die in those dimensions,
and it's not a very rich life.
I'm just going to hear the echochamber.
You know that we hear in socialmedia all the things I like
will just be echoed back into myears.
Yeah does it change me?
Does it grow me?
Does it expand me?
That's from a practical space.
Aside from that, there's somuch that we can actually learn
(25:00):
from the other.
The stickler, who needs thingsto be exactly according to the
piece, has a tremendous amountto learn from the rebel and the
rebel from the stickler.
When we look at our children,you know our parents will tell
me all the time like my child isso high energy I can't even
access them at all, like theydon't stay still for a second.
How am I supposed to everconnect with them?
And I feel their pain becausethey still badly want to connect
(25:22):
to their child.
And I think that it comes downto if the parent isn't high
energy finding some commondenominator.
There's a place where you canconnect to your child.
So you can't.
You're not going to relate tothem with jumping on the
trampoline, but maybe you canrelate to them with unpacking
groceries really quickly, Usingtheir strength, sort of
(25:44):
channeling, finding their self.
Who are they, what is theirbeautiful strength and their
greatness?
That society needs, that I need.
They have something that Idon't have.
How do I know?
Because it's friction.
Whenever there's friction, itmeans that there's a piece of it
that I?
It's too far from me?
I don't, it's not within mydimensions.
I am limited within my own self.
But if I can reach across theabyss to reach the other, I'm
(26:06):
going to find something that Idon't have and I need.
There's a part of me that needsthat energy when I'm undoing
groceries and I'm so tired atthe end of the day, and that
child can do it and I can praisethis child and connect to this
child's greatness where they'reat.
That's, I think, the firstplace.
The first place is finding them.
Your child's obsessed with videogames.
All they want to display thevideo games.
(26:27):
Video games are the most boringthing to me.
Why?
What is this dumb alternativereality that's made out of
pixels?
Like your heartbeat is feedingfast.
Like what is thisridiculousness?
The amount of waste of time.
Yet your child has tremendouspassion about feeling successful
.
I can totally get that zombie.
I could totally, you know,build this whole castle with all
(26:49):
of my supplies that I've earned.
Look at that sense ofaccomplishment, a sense of
accomplishment I could relate to.
A sense of accomplishment Whoa.
My child loves accomplishingthat feeling, that dopamine rush
.
I love dopamine rushes.
My child loves dopamine rushes.
I can connect to my child in acommon denominator, because
there is a piece of connection,because at that core, even if
they are one, two, three, four,five, six, nine, whatever it is
(27:11):
at their core, they're human andthere's something incredibly
powerful and incredibly dynamicand incredibly rich that I can
access and will need for myself,even if I need it to say, like,
what is it about myself that'suncomfortable with this?
Why am I so uncomfortable withthis?
I'm going to, I need them toexist in their space because I
need to develop who I am.
(27:31):
You know, we, I'm going to getto this part two, because part
two is really why parents cometo me, which is how do I change
my kid?
You know, but we cannot.
There is no space of connectionto build any skills for
connection until we're actuallyconnected Like they're.
That's like further down theroad is how I can, you know,
work with this child.
(27:52):
We are parents, our guide, our,our role is to guide our child.
We are going to help guide them.
We're not just saying you areas you are and that's it.
Leave your socks on the floorfor all eternity.
You know, that's not.
That's not who we are Like,that's not our role as parents,
but we cannot connect to them toteach them any skills of
connection, which one of thosethings is self responsibility.
(28:14):
You know, accountability, allthese things are part of self
and connecting with self.
But we can't do it unless wecan actually see them, and I
mean like see them as in what?
Who are they?
Who is this?
You know speed?
You know lightning speed childthat's running around in my
house, or a child that's justsitting on the couch, spaced out
, that doesn't want to move, ora child that's coming home with
(28:36):
bloody noses every day.
So how so?
How about?
So, how about?
Speaker 1 (28:41):
resistance.
I'll tell you what I mean.
Again, it's nice I'm picturingthe scenario describing and it's
nice if I'm already sittingwith two parents who are
determined, well defined, likethey.
Like, they know right, this isimportant in their life, they
want to pursue this.
But what about before you?
(29:02):
Right before you can even startimpacting the child?
You're right now dealing withthis parent and you're noticing,
or you're perceiving, one ofthe parents is resisting or is
skeptical or is just outrightdisagreeing with your approach,
with your, with your beliefsystem as to how to deal with
(29:23):
this.
So there, I would imagine therehas to be some prior
conversation as to whether it'seven possible to bring online
this connection that you'redescribing, through which we now
can make positive impact, let's, let's say, on the child or on
each other, or even on ourselves.
But when the, the person'senergy is filled with resistance
(29:46):
, skepticism, I mean, I wouldimagine that that has to be
addressed before there could bemovement to stage two, to
influence and impact andtransform somebody else.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Yes, yes, you're 100% correct, and that really is so
much of the work, because when Ihave two parents in front of me
, usually they both didn'tdecide at the same moment.
Oh yes, this will be a goodapproach for help, to help our
child.
Usually, one of them is moreimportant than the other, which
is just technically.
You know, one of them is on myWhatsApp group and has been
(30:19):
exposed and knows about thesethings.
The other one doesn't.
Now, what that other person isbringing the skeptical parent is
protectiveness for their childis fear, which is underlying, is
tremendous love.
So that is where their startingpoint is, just like our child's
starting point might be highenergy, this parent who comes in
and their starting point isresistance.
(30:41):
Resistance is what we need inthis dynamic, because there's
something there that's sacredthat they're bringing Annoying,
yes, hard to deal with, yes,make things take longer, very
possibly, but that is where whatwe're bringing to the table and
that is inside of that person'sresistance, is something
incredibly powerful.
(31:01):
Usually it's love of theirchild or fear, and usually fear
comes from either history ofhaving failed or a tremendous
sense of like.
I wish I could do this, but Iam too even scared to be hopeful
, like I'm too scared to even behopeful, and that is something
we need to bring to the table,like that.
Why are you afraid to behopeful is because what it is is
(31:23):
so important to you.
Your child's skills are soimportant.
There's something that's evendeeper, that's so important that
to not have that is scary, toeven hope, to wish to have that
and then to maybe this personcan help me.
Maybe this person can't help me.
And that's the same thing whenour child comes and many of the
kids I work with the familiesthe child has a diagnosis ADHD,
(31:44):
asd, sometimes no diagnosis,maybe should have diagnosis,
maybe it doesn't matter.
It doesn't even really matterbecause the diagnosis is just
describing these core pieces.
This child might be sooverwhelmed by sensory input
that they can't engage.
So what is happening in yourchild?
Your child is working so, so,so hard every minute because the
light is flashing too much forthem and the materials on their
(32:06):
shirt are scratching them andthe sounds like whoa, this child
is a warrior.
So when I relate to this child,I'm relating to this warrior
that's here, and or the parentthat's coming and is resistant,
or the spouse that's coming andis like I can't ever work on
this relationship.
What you think that I'm going tobe talking about, my feelings
is going to help me.
You're telling me looking intomy body and trying to find where
(32:27):
my body's experiencing emotionsgoing to help me.
I think I'm supposed to rulefrom my head.
My head has always been good,been there for me, okay, good,
your head has been there for you.
That is a really importantthing to keep in mind.
We need to make sure that yourhead is signing off.
That part of you is signing offon what you're doing, on the
work you're doing, because it'salways been there for you and
it's been something you canalways rely on.
So you need to make sure thatyour head's on board the pieces
(32:50):
that we have, the parts ofourselves.
Each self is going to be theconduit.
That's what I'm saying.
The step one is always going tobe self, and the self is the
parent self, the spouse self,the child self, and that's where
it really comes to that.
We all are in this processbecause there's always more
(33:11):
parts of us and it's never goingto be boring.
We're never going to beplateaued, even in our plateau.
That's also communicating to usStagnating Nothing's helping,
nothing's working, thatstagnation is communicating to
us.
It's just beautiful, becausenothing of Hashem's creation,
nothing of our experiences issomething that we can't be
(33:31):
involved in and engage with andgrow with.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
I want to make like a 180 on the highway and ask you
a question that's going to shiftus into kind of a new
trajectory.
I'm very curious to know if youhave an experience with this,
and if not, it's okay.
But I'm just curious if youhave a perspective on what about
(33:56):
divorced homes?
Right, I mean, I have my ownbackground I'm happy to share if
it will be relevant.
We know that, of course, withthat again, looking up any
statistics, there's enormousimpact on a child's journey when
the child experiences theirworld, their nuclear family,
being torn apart or be brokendown.
(34:17):
It leaves tremendous scars andwhich results in all kinds of
acting out and behavioral issues, etc.
Etc.
There's so much that kind offlows out of that explosion that
takes place in the family.
So I'm just very curious toalso hear.
I feel like we so far areanalyzing where the starting
(34:41):
point is okay, there's a familyunit, it's relatively intact,
and now we're trying to do somework on strengthening the family
system, building closer bonds,connections between various
members within the system.
But what about when the systempermanently breaks, or
permanently is going toredefinement or right?
(35:04):
There's divorce and thenremarriage and so now there's
more people brought into thesystem.
I'm just curious if you couldspeak to terms of teaching
parents.
I guess there have been twoparents that came and said you
know they want to, they want tofigure out how to deal with
their kid.
Or just if you just yourselfmade any observations, I myself
(35:26):
just kind of for years wouldwatch all these things unfold,
just kind of, first as being adivorce attorney and then now
working with couples.
It comes up all the time butI'm always curious to understand
better and really deeper whatis going on in those children as
they experience themselves andtheir world around them when
(35:47):
they kind of live through atraumatic event such as a
divorce and end of a familysystem.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Sorry, it's so sad.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
That's why I got out.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
This is how I think about challenges that people
engage with.
The work is different when aperson is currently in a state
of unsafety, like you don'tstart doing trauma therapy with
somebody while the fire is stillraging.
You try and get them safe whilethe fire is still raging, you
take them out of the building.
(36:22):
You know they can't be in thatspace, but then afterwards they
have to learn how to feel safeagain and that thing that was
extremely destructive fire canactually help a child learn
internal tools to developthemselves, where they become
makers of themselves.
Now that could mean that theyhave to learn how to build
(36:44):
bricks.
That for another child theydon't have to learn how to build
bricks because their buildingis intact, they never had a fire
.
So that child will develop,know themselves.
If they can heal, if they'reguided in healing and if they're
given the tools and the support, you know that they could build
something that is really fromthemselves.
(37:05):
That they'll have created theirinternal sense of safety,
because it won't have just comenaturally from having a stable
building that they lived in.
They had to learn themselves.
You know, and it's on a verycore body level Anytime you know
, that trauma is stored in thebody.
So they have to sort of createnew neurons in their brain, find
(37:27):
safety in their physical spaceand their physical body, and
that safety will be somethingthat they've made.
They'll be stronger becausethey've made it.
It'll also be like scarier alittle bit because they made it.
They'll have to think of thingsthat another child won't have
to think about, like plumbing,electricity.
How does this?
How do I build this building?
You know, certain senses ofregulation will be much more
(37:51):
challenging, but they will owntheir process.
They'll own it, and when theycome into their marriages and
into their relationships they'regoing to be working really hard
.
But any part of theirrelationship that they build
will be theirs.
They'll have made it.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
It really is like now that.
I'm listening to like oh man,maybe I should have asked that
question.
Why it's such a no, it's such ano, not me as in, like I also
like, when I take it in, youjust it's so hard as an adult
where you know most adultsalready sort of experience some
kind of bruising, scars, tissuemeaning in our adult forms we're
(38:31):
.
It's almost like you take itfor granted, you know, until the
pain kind of reaches a certainunbearable threshold.
So then maybe we're like okay,it is uncomfortable, so it's so
easy to just overlook for alittle child.
Their entire resistance isbeing channeled through the
family concept, the existence ofthis unit called the family,
(38:56):
that they have these two parentsand they take care of me and
even if sometimes they're notdoing such a good job, but the
existence of the unit itself isan anchor of their world.
And I can tell you that, by theway, that a lot of times I don't
want to like give impression,not like majority of time, but
frequently enough couples willtell me, either together or one
(39:20):
of the spouses, that I'm stayingin this relationship because of
the children.
I don't want, I don't want thisrelationship, but I don't.
But I know the harm that willbe inflicted on the children.
I don't want that impact orharm to happen.
Or sometimes both spouses willsay that and they'll stick
around just to avoid opposingharm to the child.
(39:41):
And so I know that for a lot ofpeople who listen to my type of
show or it's always aboutrelationships the children very
often become this sort of abackground variable that is not
very much talked about in termsof things that are pressurizing
(40:01):
relationship, stressing therelationship between the spouses
, but it's very much present inthe background.
It really is playing an activerole in what goes on in the
relationship space between theadults.
But it's interesting how likefor some people it's like
literally the defining featureof to stick around or not to
(40:27):
break up a family or not breakup children or you know I don't
really know.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
You know every, every time I don't know.
I would never.
I don't know anyone's choice orspace to make any of these
decisions.
You know that's solely in theirown space to be able to figure
out what they need.
But there's a lot of differenttypes of fires.
The divorce is one type of fireand fighting is another type of
(40:53):
fire and there's a lot ofdifferent.
There's a lot of differentthings and, as I was saying
before, if let's say thechildren become the impetus,
like, okay, let's work this outbecause of the children, that's
sort of like let me work out howI relate to the itchiness in my
sock for myself, because of mychild's itchiness in their sock,
my relationship with my like itbecomes the impetus, like it's
(41:16):
all, it's all part of thepicture, because they're all
pieces that can.
That are the challenging pieces.
But actually the spaces forgrowth, like it is those
conflicts that are the space forgrowth.
Like he likes croutons, shedoesn't like croutons.
Every time she puts croutons inthe salad.
That's a place of conflict.
They put different, differentthings.
She puts croutons.
(41:36):
For him, that place of frictionbecame the place of connection,
the actual space of friction.
So let's say the child's needs,like this is very, very common,
especially when you know aregular dynamic.
A regular relationship has itschallenges because there's two
selves engaging.
So like, okay, basic challenge,you know large basic challenge.
(41:58):
But then add on let's say, achild, a child additional, and
then add on a child with thediagnoses and the strain that
that could put on a relationshipand that, and I've seen, like
the choices people have madewithin that.
You know what happens when onespouse doesn't pick up, what is
that, and then the other parent,the other spouses, left
carrying the whole thing, thewhole load.
(42:19):
Or what happens when twospouses band together, or what
happens.
You know the choices that wemake within the conflict.
That's, that's the, that'swhere connection is.
Is what are we doing withinthat space?
What are we doing within that?
The two selves?
You know that's one of the corething, one of the core.
(42:40):
The core, I would say the coreskill of relationship skills
after having a self, is theperspective taking up like okay,
who was the other and how do Irelate to the other?
And that's the part where weget to like be way bigger than
we ever were, ever or we couldever possibly be without the
other.
I could never imagine having somuch internal endurance to be
(43:03):
able to carry the weight oftaking care of this child.
I never thought I would be ableto have that.
I never thought I'd have asmuch love and persistence and
dedication I never would havebeen able to have that.
Is it because the other person'snot carrying the load?
What does it mean that they'renot carrying the load?
What's going on in their worldthat they feel so?
What?
Because they can't overload,carry the load that they're
(43:24):
leaving me alone in the dark?
I know that they care about me.
They told me before they caredabout me but why aren't they
showing up what's happening intheir world?
And that's like the fundamentalsof social skills, like the when
I say fundamentals, like that'sat the core, core, core, heart
of it is can I take care ofmyself enough, value myself
enough, see my own spark enoughthat I have energy?
(43:44):
And I have the desire to seethe other person's spark and to
see their energy.
Can I is there, can I?
Can I have that?
Can I have enough self that Ican feel safe enough in myself
that I can reach beyond andaccess the other and understand
what's the other?
Where is the other?
Oh, they're sleeping.
Oh, I should be quiet whenthey're sleeping.
(44:04):
My grandmother came from faraway and she wants to give me a
hug.
I don't really like hugs, but Ishould give her a hug because,
from her perspective, you know,can I do that?
Oh, I want to be a lovingperson, I want to give to her, I
will hug her.
I don't like hugs, but I willhug her because I want to see
the other's perspective, type ofthing.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
I'm going to take you on the roller coaster.
Here comes another wave of atotally different nature.
Do you find and again I maybeI'll weigh in I do want to share
my controversial perspective onthis, but I'm also very curious
to hear yours Do you find anydifferences from the work you're
(44:43):
doing in the genders?
Because what I found are twothings, and the things I'm going
to share now are more anecdotalthan rooted in research, and I
think sometimes I have momentswhere I'm like one day I should
really take a look at some kindof a really big longitudinal
study so I could like have areal research backing what I'm
(45:07):
about to say, because I'mliterally sharing only just from
observing, of handling thecases and families that I've
handled over the years, and thefollowing patterns have emerged
for me during moments of high,high conflict, high tension,
women tended to become morerational, grounded.
(45:33):
Men become irrational andemotional and the decisions, the
quality of the decision makingprocess that's the words I
wanted to say the quality of thedecision making process to me
was always significantly higherin women and significantly
reduced in men.
(45:53):
Men tended to go into survivalmode.
Women were very much otheroriented, wanted to figure out a
compromise Men tended to bestubborn very much from my way
of the highway and I'm wonderingif you could share, or if you
ever thought about thatobservation of sitting with
(46:14):
parents, sort of a couple aftercouple after couple, and you
know they're, they're sharingwith you their stories or
grappling with their childrenand sort of just how they
present, as they talk about, asthey struggle with it.
I wonder if you noticed any sortof gender defining aspects,
(46:35):
because the reason the reason Ifeel like it's important to talk
about is not only like to pointout the difference in genders
is I feel that if we really sortof pin down and define the
difference, then we can teach,educate, apply different
standards, approaches to eachrespective gender that would
(46:58):
allow them to be more effective,be more accessing state of
connections.
That's why I think it'simportant versus sort of one
science fits all here's whateverybody should be doing and to
a disregard of maybe veryimportant characteristics such
as gender and how that'simpacting the person's overall
experience of being relational.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
It reminds me a little bit of like the
neuroscience behind.
You know, the base of our brainis where survival is in our
Olympic system.
Our feelings are right next toour survival states and I would
make the generalization ofsaying that women are generally
probably more emotional and intheir space of survival, sort of
like cut off their flow totheir emotions in survival
(47:43):
meaning it's the same survivalstate that might make them in.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
Yeah, but it's okay, we'll delete it.
It's okay, we're gonna bewrapping up and I'm gonna delete
all this, it's okay.
You started sharing how youfind, which is very I actually
find this very interesting.
I never thought in those termsthat the very thing that's sort
of like the strength, the thingthat woman leans on is, let's
(48:16):
say, the her emotional capacityactually gets cut off, you're
saying, and then she sort ofbecomes.
Speaker 2 (48:23):
I think it's survival Cerebral.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
But you're saying it's not a cerebral from a place
of relaxed state of thinking,it's a survival cerebral.
But then how will you explainthe man?
Speaker 2 (48:35):
I think that's me.
It's made of like biologics.
She is in for her best stateshe is, and when he is in for
his best state and I think thatthey both sort of are just
trying to let's try somethingelse.
And I don't even think that, ifit's a decision, I think it's
like a man's job is to protectand provide.
(48:56):
So if let's say they have to,let me buckle down on my nest
and don't let anyone in, don'tlet anyone out.
I have to protect my nest itleads to rigidity and it leads
to I'm going to switch to notbreak next to the drill.
Oh, you're home, Okay, great.
Sorry, I'm not in a rush, myhair needs to be here.
You have to watch her, Okay.
Okay, she had reset.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
Yeah, sure, but you're up there, you're frozen.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
Okay, okay.
So basically, the way that Iunderstand it is that when we
are in our prime state, like themost, ideal is that our whole
brain is in, you know, symbioticuse.
Our thoughts, our feelings, ourbody states are all being taken
into account and then, from afrontal lobe place, we make
(49:43):
decisions and it takes intoaccount all of it.
The way Dan Siegel describes itis that you put your hand, you
put, you know, tuck your thumbin to cover your fingers.
Your frontal lobe is by yournails and it's hugging your
whole brain.
It's taking everything intoaccount and it's making good
decisions.
When we're in a place of fear ordanger, then our if it changes.
(50:04):
Things are the way that thingsare supposed to flow, aren't
flowing.
So very often I'll have mothersthat'll come and they're in
problem solving their child.
Their children will be fightingand then suddenly they're
resolving all the fights.
If they were in a place ofcenteredness and that all their
had they had complete blood flowto their whole cells, then they
(50:24):
would think, okay, I want toteach my child a skill here,
this conflict, my kids arefighting, I don't want to
resolve the fight for them.
Yes, it will give me immediatequiet, but it's not going to
give them life skills.
So they're also responding froma place of lack of safety and
so they're coming to conclusions.
They're also out of touch, outof sync with their naturally
(50:45):
more emotionally selves and notthinking in a balanced way by
trying to problem solve, wherevery often I'll find the father
or the man will hunker down andhe's to protect his territory
and he doesn't have anysolutions to this.
There's not anything in hismind and there's not really so
(51:06):
much blood flow going to thefront of his brain because his
body sending a message of danger, danger, danger.
So he's going to hunker downand protect his nest for all his
worth and nothing's allowed inand nothing's allowed out, and
that looks very rigid andbecause he's in, he's like
that's his fight, her fightlooks like okay, let me quickly
resolve all the issues.
Let me you know if I take careof all the other people around
(51:28):
me, I'll be safe or thesituation will be resolved.
It's not like more caring orless caring, or more loving or
less loving, it's survival.
And they both look likesurvival.
They both are fear based andwhen we can address our fear and
address like oh my gosh, I'mgoing to be safe even if I have
a conflict right now, and mychild is going to be able to be
safe.
How can a child be safe througha conflict?
(51:50):
How can I feel safe in aconflict?
Oh, this is going to be themoment where I be, when I
actually develop my life'smission, which is grow myself
and connect.
That's how I could be safe evennow, even when my kids are
tearing each other's hair out,even when my spouse is refusing
to X, because in this space isthe place where growth happens,
and that's the point.
(52:11):
So then, their safety, even inthat place of lack of safety.
Speaker 1 (52:14):
Yeah, I think they're great points.
Do you have techniques or like?
Could you share any tips orskills when you're trying to
help somebody either do selfregulation or just to kind of
become more grounded if they'reif they're just feeling off or
dysregulated.
Do you have any specific go tothings you like?
Speaker 2 (52:34):
Yes, my, my favorite one is ground yourself, because
we have something called mirrorneurons, which are the same
brainwaves that actually allowour children to learn language
when they hear us saying a wordand they're able to mirror back
or even like a little infant.
You can hold a little baby,stick your tongue out and
(52:57):
they'll stick their tongue backout back at you.
That's mirror neurons.
That's how they learn about theworld.
We're social beings, createdsocially, and when we step
inwards, we're going to learn.
When we step inwards, thespouse is still freaking out,
the kid is still freaking out.
Okay, I can find internalsafety.
We actually, aside from us notfeeling like we're losing it, we
(53:17):
actually also provide an oasis.
Someone told me I don't know ifthis is true, I don't know if
this is research based they saidup to nine feet, a person can
sense the emotions of anotherperson.
I don't.
Speaker 1 (53:27):
I don't know if that's true or not, but you said
within nine feet, yeah, withinnine feet, yeah.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
I don't know if I don't know if it's true.
I the reason why I repeat it,even though I don't know if it's
true, is because it resonateslike when your kids are falling
apart.
Speaker 1 (53:42):
Maybe you're, maybe you're a four, maybe.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
I'm a four, then it's this it's this interesting
thing to be able to groundyourself, be centered in
yourself, and that actually canprovide that support, that
anchoring, so the other peoplearound you have that capacity to
also.
Oh, there is safety in thisroom.
(54:05):
Right now, I feel likeeverything is, you know, upside
down topsy-turvy.
Oh wait, I'm sensing there isthis person of safety here in my
presence.
Okay, and to go real soon fromthere.
Speaker 1 (54:18):
It's funny You're reminding me of when I was doing
my master's in marriage therapy.
We had a series of classescalled the body in the room and
basically this this professorwas essentially trying to build
a case and it was happens to belooking back.
I was very much sold was veryconvincing argument, which the
(54:41):
idea is that what do we tend todo?
We tend to sit down if that andwe just start talking about the
problem and we just discussedit and we assume all there was
is, let's say, some intellectualblockage to clarity and if we
speak it out with words, we'rejust going to arrive at whatever
conclusion we need to arrive.
And what he was basically shownus and we were practicing this
(55:05):
and in like small groups toexperience it for ourselves is,
if the body is itself in adysregulated state, if the body
is holding tension, stress, someform of discomfort, and you
don't bring the body into a morepresent, relaxed state, that
(55:27):
directly impacts the quality ofthe mind, the emotion and the
energy within of being able tobe present, relational, holding
space for the other person.
And so I was so fascinated bythis, I decided to experiment,
and this is then.
I pretty much do it everysession pretty much, which is
(55:48):
the way I start sessions withcouples.
Before they do what we call themodel dialogue, I just have
them close their eyes and we dolike small meditation where I
just kind of help them tobreathe through the day, breathe
through whatever they feelthey're sitting with as they're
going into the session, and thewhole idea is to sort of just
(56:09):
kind of unburden and step outeven if it's temporarily step
out from the sense of thepressure of my life and all the
things I have to deal with.
Can I just be present for thenext hour?
Can I just be present?
And many couples have sharedthat the quality of the session
(56:29):
itself, the actual interactionwith their spouse was, like
qualitatively different whenthey attempted to dialogue after
centering.
So we go with centering asopposed to where they sit down
and say, okay, hi, nice to seeyou, good afternoon, okay, let's
dialogue and something in thatexperience was missing was the
(56:53):
chair.
Like, yeah, we exchanged thewords, but I'm still feeling
unsettled, I'm still feelinglike something's off, whereas a
significant contrast tosituation for couples.
You know, we're sitting downand before we jump into the work
, just invite the body to relaxand like the more this body is
relaxed, the more the mind, theemotion is available, and I
(57:17):
won't steal.
Yes, I guess I was justwondering to hear if there's
anything more you do in terms ofeither working with the body or
looking at how just the body'splace in the entire dynamic, how
it's impacting and thereforewhat, if anything, to do about
it.
Like I said, like, just like,let's say, my session is in OB
(57:40):
two to four minute meditationfor a couple, just to breathe
through their body and just letthe body relax and be present.
That actually sets the mind fora more, you know, available,
accessible journey.
So it seems like there is mybody connection in that way.
Speaker 2 (57:59):
Yes, very much so that resonates very much.
I find that a lot.
I'm actually doing a trainingnow, a film there, with somatic
experiencing, but I wanted todeepen my understanding of felt
sense, which somatic experienceis very much like about the body
and like really learning thebody, and I feel like felt sense
is sort of the focusing, islike the conversation between
(58:24):
the two, and I find that verymuch.
I find that, you know, acrossthe board, we have two.
We have parts of us, parts ofus as our body and part of us as
our mind, and they're justparts.
You know, our soul isn't eitherof them, they're just, they're
tools.
Both of them are tools and themore that we take all of our
tools and we let them all worktogether and communicate with
(58:45):
each other, the more effectivewe are and happier and freer and
available for growth.
Speaker 1 (58:50):
If you find that, yes , do you have advice for parents
who would want to help theiryes, who would want to help
their ромбуктча с.
Who would want to help theirромбукча ромбукча?
Speaker 2 (59:10):
ромбукча, ромбукча, ромбукча ромбукча ромбукча,
(01:00:17):
ромбукча ромбукча, ромбукчаромбукча, ромбукча ромбукча,
(01:02:44):
ромбукча ромбукча, ромбукча.
Hello and welcome to dating, marriage and divorce
conversations where we analyze,navigate and troubleshoot all
stages of your romantic life.
I'm your host, igor Meistelman,a divorce attorney turned
relationship coach.
Hello everybody, welcome back.
I'm really excited to have thisopportunity to sit down with
(00:31):
Mary Campbell, who is a socialworker.
She also has a business calledskills for connection and she
focuses on working with parentsand helping them work on all
sorts of skills and improvingtheir relationship with their
kids.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Hi, mary, hi thanks for having me here Appreciate it
.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
You're welcome, so I think it'd be great to start off
with if you could maybe justshare a little bit about
yourself.
How did you get into the lineof work that you do?
What do you like about it?
What?
Speaker 2 (00:59):
do you not like about it?
So the reason I got into it ishonestly because of listeners
that are here, because I'mpassionate about connection and
growth, because I know that Ineed to do it for myself and I
know that that's what we're allhere for.
So for somebody to tune in andlisten to a podcast like this
means that that's what they'realso passionate about.
(01:20):
So thank you guys for being theinspiration behind all this,
because without peopleinterested in growth, then if
you want to help support growth,you need to have people,
because we all work together.
So that's how I got into theline.
Of work is I'm passionate aboutconnection and I really want to
help kids specifically withconnection, because I feel like
(01:43):
when our kids could get thesupport when they're young, then
they could have just a moreenriched whole life and in their
adulthood they're able todevelop deeper relationships and
all the things that we wantconflict resolution and, you
know, self-awareness and beingable to expand to their biggest
selves and when we can starthelping kids when they're young.
(02:03):
So I actually started out as aspeech therapist because I
wanted to give tools.
I wanted concrete tools to givepeople to help them with
communication and relationshipskills, and then I quickly found
I needed to address theemotional component, because
we're all one big self with headand heart and mouths and
muscles and, you know, air andall the pieces that make us us,
(02:27):
and I felt like I needed morebackground in that.
So I trained as a social workerand then I was working with
kids for many years and foundthat they really do need to have
more than two hours or, youknow, the most two hours a week
of therapy.
They needed their parents toknow what to do.
So then I segued into workingprimarily with parents and
teachers and helping them knowhow to naturally use these tools
(02:51):
, so that way the child's notgoing to a very contrived
session and navigating thesetools, but actually using them
in real life.
So I teach parents how to teachtheir kids social skills and
I'm loving it.
A really funny thing that Ireally did start with my
intention to work with kids.
That was my intention and theirony is that through teaching
(03:12):
parents these tools, is thatparents are finding that it's
actually helping them in theirown relationships.
So, like, which is not?
I mean, it makes sense because,like, whenever you, you know,
start the growth, you knowprocess, like you can't move one
part of the dance without theother, the dance just moving,
and it makes sense.
But it wasn't my intention andI'm.
It's just so incrediblygratifying to hear parents take
(03:36):
these tools for themselves andto when they're trying to help
their child have emotionalregulation and they're
developing emotional regulationand they're trying to help their
child have more self-awarenessand understanding how their self
is impacting the other and thatengagement and that interaction
and they're finding that it'shelpful in their own
relationships with their child,but even with their spouses and
(03:58):
even with their co-workers, andit's just really beautiful to
witness these beautiful parentsand beautiful families.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
This last point resonates very much for me.
I was actually invited to givea talk in a synagogue in the in
the neighborhood where I live inPhoenix and I at the end just
basically there was enoughquestions where at the end I
just said to the parents youknow when you're going to be
parenting, but when you engagein parenting you're, you're
raising two people, your childand yourself.
Yes, yes, exactly, and the morethat you come to terms with that
(04:30):
, the more you'll be successfulin raising the kid.
And I think I think what somepeople are really resonated
because the focus so easilyshifts into what do I have to do
with the child and how do Iaddress this child and almost
kind of fall by the sidewayrealization that but you're an
active participant in thatjourney and so how you're?
(04:50):
showing up is also impacting howthe child is showing up, and I
saw how some people was likekind of like a light bulb moment
while I think about my ownparticipation in that kind of
entire journey that's takingplace yes, very much, and.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
I also find like it's empowering for parents to.
You know, sometimes like theparent will come and they'll
tell me like my child very rigidthinking, or my child's too
bossy, or my child is bullying,or my child is a victim, or my
child, you know, can't sit still, or my child's forgetful,
whatever the skills are.
And when we are in the mode ofseeing our children like that,
(05:28):
then we sort of forget our pieceof it.
So, like when a parent tells memy child is rigid, it's like
wait, that's a little bit of arigid statement you made, parent
.
Now I'm not saying it like ha haha, look at you, you're doing
this.
I'm saying it like with themost compassion and love,
because my husband's Rebi Rebiand I remember him telling,
telling us one time like he said, like you know, if let's say
(05:50):
like, they say like okay, aparent has bipolar, then their
kid has bipolar.
It's not like oh well, becauseof genes, it had to happen like
that, they had it because hisfather had it, and he's like no,
no, my son doesn't have like alimited amount of cards in the
deck.
You know he's able to like.
It's not like okay, I have fivebipolar cards.
Okay, any me, any mine and it'slike oh, let me give this child
(06:10):
to this parent specifically,because they're going to help
each other.
So, like this parent, who mighthave self judgment for whatever
challenge they have, they getangry quickly and then they're
able to see like oh, my childwas born like this.
Like this is the challenge thatthey were given and they're
able to have compassion for the,for their child, because they
see, like my child didn't chooseto get to have a, you know,
(06:30):
short temper.
This is how Hashem made them.
Oh, hashem also made me parentslike this.
Like they're able to have thatself love because they see that
their child didn't makethemselves with their character
challenges.
Like the child was born likethat.
So it sort of allows them tohave their own healing process.
And this child now has thisamazing opportunity because no
(06:53):
one in the world will understandthem like their parent, because
no one else has this same typeof personality, the same type of
dynamic internal challenge.
Like you also need to thinkthey're stuck to be on exactly
like this.
Like, oh, your father also has.
That he can totally resonatewith you.
And then it can often serve aslike a trigger for the parent
(07:15):
because like, oh, my gosh, likeif they haven't yet resolved
that.
Oh my gosh, why am I soperfectionist that I have to
have my sock on perfectly likethis?
Why am I so sensory?
Why am I so they're able to?
They they're sort of in thisdynamic where, through their
child, they have to confrontthemselves and they have this
amazing process of being able toengage in this self journey of
(07:37):
parenthood of you know what youwere saying raising themselves
to, to be able to help theirchild and, like I always say
this like if Facebook orwhatever could learn how to
monetize love, we'd really be introuble, like right now.
They're really good at likemonetizing, like desire and fear
, you know.
So the advertisements and stuff, but if they could monetize
(07:58):
love, you know, like we're gonnareally be in trouble.
Because parents have so muchlove for their children, they're
able to really overcomeincredible obstacles within them
, their own selves, to be ableto support their child's like
they might not have been able toaddress their own.
You know shame that they havewith their perfectionism, with
their socks or whatever, butbecause they have this child now
(08:21):
, they're in a situation wheredaily, many times a day, every
time their child takes off theirsock, they now get to re-engage
with it and it doesn't meanthat it's perfect, but they are
engaged and it's just soincredibly powerful and
beautiful to recognize like noneof it's an accident and we are
given the exact children that weneed to grow ourselves, with
(08:41):
all of their beautiful strugglesand beautiful strengths and
that whole process.
It's just like there aren'treally words magic.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
The word came to my mind was magic.
I want to step back and ask youa question about a word you
used and it might be maybe alittle bit sort of a
philosophical or psychologicalin nature, but I'm very curious
to hear when you think the wordconnection I mean in in terms of
human relationships, whetherit's parent to child spouses.
(09:13):
When you think of the wordconnection, can you speak a
little bit more to that?
What does it look like?
What does it mean when we arein the state of connection?
Speaker 2 (09:23):
it's so funny.
I actually wrote a book, achildren's book, about this.
It's called bubble double andit's about connection.
It came about I was workingwith a very darling child,
around seven years old,diagnosed with autism, and he
struggled with greetings, whichwhat that looked like was.
(09:44):
He would come into a room andbe very frustrated because he
would talk to the person andthey would sort of have no idea
that they were.
He was talking to them becausehe didn't address them and it
would also mean at the end ofand, and you know, in the middle
of the classroom he couldtheoretically leave because he
didn't appreciate that space.
And so, you know, I was arelatively new therapist and I
(10:06):
was doing all the things thatthe research shows you're
supposed to do.
You do role playing, you drawit out so they could have a
concept, and you know, of sayinghello, saying goodbye, and at
the end of a really great,wonderful session went, really
great, he just left, he didn'tsay goodbye.
I was like, oh, I should quitthis field.
(10:30):
That was my very strongrealization yeah, I need to stop
working in this field becausethis doesn't work.
Yeah, you know, I was doingeverything right and it wasn't
working.
And Husham gave me this idea ofbecause he didn't, he didn't
understand that we were sharinga connected space, that we were
engaging and there was sort oflike this sacred bubble space
(10:52):
that we both were inhabiting,that we both were, you know,
engaging with.
And so this idea of like thisvisualization of like a shared
bubble double where I have aself and I am in my own bubble
and the other is in their ownbubble and they are self in
their own bubble, and then wesort of have this magic, if you
were saying thing that developswhen the two bubbles engage, it
(11:15):
doesn't have to be in person, orit could be on the phone, or it
doesn't have to be, you know,possibly you have to be as arms
like the stents.
That's not true.
I have to make Husham additionand engage you with somebody,
you know.
But it's sort of this bubblethat forms around the two of the
two people, the two bubbles,and that's a bubble double and
that's the sort of sacred spaceof connection that these two
people get to engage with andshare space, and there are rules
(11:39):
.
That's how I teach.
Social skills is within thisconnection.
It's not about you have to be,have, you know, conform to
social niceties because you haveto conform, or it's not that
you have to, you know, pleasethem.
It's a matter of I want toconnect with the other and I
want to make sure that I'mmaking a, making a space that
this, this bubble, the sacredbubble, can thrive.
(12:01):
And in order to get into thisbubble, I have to say hello.
In order to leave this bubble,I'd say goodbye.
You know, if I am too too far,the bubble, they can't hear me.
It's practically the bubble.
It's, it pops, it stretches,it's too far.
If I go into somebody else'sbubble space without permission
you know spatial awareness, I'min their space then it pops.
This bubble it's just like theother person's, like I don't
(12:21):
really want to be in this spacewith you.
It's too uncomfortable for me.
Um, and that's really in my mindis there are specific skills
that we can learn to help uswith connection.
Connection is this.
I think it's a spiritual thing.
I really do.
I don't think there's any Like.
How could a person feelconnected to somebody across the
(12:41):
country, across the world?
You know it's a spiritual thing.
It's not space or matter.
Yet there are specific thingsthat we can do that will help
build connection, and that'swhat I teach parents how to do
for themselves and how to do fortheir kids, because there are
skills that help us developconnection and help honor the
sacred space of the shared spacethat we have when we're with
(13:04):
another human Something that youwere reminding me as I was
listening to this description is, in my trainings, a term that's
constantly brought up is thisidea of enmeshment versus self
differentiation.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
And I just find, you know, I mostly work with couples
and it's interesting the wayyou're describing how we need to
think about this is skill thateven a child learning is to
learn.
What happens when most of usare sort of schooling, and both
education and even any technicaltraining pretty much lacks, is
(13:43):
lacking in teaching these ideassuch as there's you, there's me
and that's the beginning of thestory versus, you know, one of
us has to win and one of us hasto lose in order for me to
experience aliveness or toexperience connection.
Versus there could be twoequally honored, respected
(14:05):
beings and through that a real,genuine connection emerges where
both are celebrated, both areacknowledged, and it's
interesting for me to hear youknow here's where you're trying
to help parents and I understandhow deal with the child, and
I'm mostly dealing with twoadults you know often who are
also happens to be parents, butthey're two adults and they're
(14:28):
essentially living out a displayof lack of the skills that
you're describing and I alwaysfeel like I have to sort of take
them back from scratch andteach them once again what it
means to acknowledge there'syour space, there's my space and
here's how we're going tonegotiate, engaging each other
space and when it's okay toenter the others space, what
(14:51):
it's not.
It's very interesting how a lotof people unfortunately it was
just skipped, jumped over andthey're hoping to kind of wing
it and with just with kind ofsheer intuition and some common
sense, to kind of make their waythrough something as complex as
a marriage and what it means tolive with another human being.
(15:12):
And I think what people oftenfind is that it's just not
enough.
Relying on intuition and justkind of your own inner sense of
what you, what you think makessense, is very often at least,
is just not enough.
And being exposed to conceptslike this, like where there's
two people and therefore we haveto negotiate how we engage I
(15:35):
call it rules of engagement likehow do we engage each other?
Do we just assume right?
Like something as simple as areyou available for a
conversation?
Well, I'll just start talkingto you.
I don't even ask wait, is thisa good time for you?
Maybe it's not a good time.
There's something as basicretired from work.
Right, that's right, that'sright.
So it's interesting howconnection could be very sort of
(15:59):
tender, sensitive space.
And on the one hand, it seemslike human beings, generally
speaking, crave connection.
One experience connection.
We feel alive when we feel thesense of connection to the world
around us.
And yet there's, it seems to melike this is not enough
discussion, education, awarenessabout how that connection is
(16:24):
formed, how it's nurtured in ahealthy way.
We sort of kind of kind ofcollide and arbitrary moments
and hope that that is enough togenerate connection.
And I find that I'm constantlytrying to explain to adults that
you have to nurture the space.
(16:44):
It can just operate inautopilot.
Do you have any thoughts ofyour perspective?
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yeah, it's sort of.
It's sort of going back to whatI said about, like finding that
the parents are gaining fromthese things.
And you know, I worked with thesame constructs I've broken it
down to still constructs becauseI wanted to make it something
that a teacher could use in aclassroom and like I have, like
these worksheets that they canjust, you know, all the time, be
using, like how do I, you knowwhat's her perspective, what's
(17:13):
my perspective?
And that's, with everythingyou're doing, a, you know, a
social studies lesson.
What's the north's perspective,once the south's perspective?
You know what's this, thisgeneral's perspective, what's
that general's perspective?
You know what is this leaderand that layman and whatever it
is?
All the components are allbuilt in it to the fabric of our
(17:34):
lives.
The interesting thing that Ifind is this first step is
always going to be aboutdeveloping self.
There isn't a way to for for aparent to be present, or for a
parent to be present, a spouseto be present, another spouse,
without first having found thetenderness in themselves.
You can't touch anotherperson's tenderness, you know,
(17:54):
like, reach out, like to theirsweet smile, this child smile
looking at you.
You know if you are rushed orstressed, but we live in a world
where everyone's very rushedand stressed, so, like, what are
you supposed to do so for?
When we parent ourselves andwhen we tap into our own
internal selves, you know who amI and it's like, oh, I have
(18:16):
this intense in my shoulders, oh, I had this feeling in my
stomach, you know, and like it'svery concrete and we can teach
our kids that very concretely.
You know that very concretething that is universal.
You know couples who aredealing with this, children who
are dealing with this, coworkers who are dealing with
this, co workers.
So everybody at our humanenesshas this body that is going to
(18:40):
giving us information about how,internally, we're receiving
things.
It doesn't mean how we'rethinking about things, but if
you tell us just even like onthe most basic check, in level
of like what's happening righthere, oh, my breath is short, my
leg is jiggling.
You know even just that thatsimple tune in allows us to
develop that skill, and so Ialways say this.
(19:03):
You know, people who'velistened to a lot of my podcasts
know this already.
But yeah, I always say that yougo to you know an age-old and
you ask them like, oh, do youhave as much self awareness as
you possibly could have.
You know, like it's laughable,like they'll be like, what are
you talking about?
Like it's a spiritual thing.
I'm a spiritual make up, so Ican't ever fully know myself, to
(19:25):
fully be self aware, like as Ichained in and develop and
evolve and then to say to themare you as connected with the
other as possible?
So, like, no matter what aperson's starting point is,
there's always space for growth.
You know, and some people hadchildhoods where they were
raised in ways that they arevery attuned to that internal
tenderness, as you say.
And there's not, like itdoesn't even really matter
(19:48):
because there's no one who'sdone the work.
When I say done, meaning notinvolved in done, as in
completed the work.
There's no one who's completedlike I'm not.
I grow all the time in myskills and that's my.
My litmus test for myself isn'tdid I never get angry?
My litmus test was I engaged inthe struggle, you know, because
that's really what it's aboutis like, am I helping my child
(20:09):
become more themselves?
Oh, are they going to beperfect when they leave our
houses?
Are they going to be perfect,you know, are our marriage is
going to be perfect?
No, but like oh, was I moreself aware and more aware of.
Like oh, I was feeling, youknow, hurt and felt like unloved
.
So then I responded how comeyou didn't take the trash out
like we're engaging in themundane arm are stressful lives
(20:36):
perhaps, but we're just retuninginto that internal tenderness
and then be able to engage morefrom that space.
You know, as part of theprocess, as part of the.
You know the developing concept.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
So the question I have for you is that I find you
know this concept of personalitytypes right, and whether you
take any grams, you take anyother.
You know like please understandme junk hearsay approach my or
breaks my or breaks yeah mythanks, my personality test.
(21:12):
The idea, though, is that peopleare wired differently, and that
I mean there are manydimensions and factors to
discuss, but if we just sort ofspliced out the personality as
one feature, for example, if youtake a personality type, that
is its nature is it's wired forconnection.
(21:33):
A person who's very tune likefours are, for example, in that
model, one through nine.
A number four is, like, knownas essentially almost like
endowed with this incredibleemotional intelligence, very
easily tunes to other people,but then you could pick another
number where it's like almostlike incompetence in the realm
(21:56):
of emotional intelligence.
You know they're the first oneto be like haha, what is
somebody crying right now?
Really, right, and the personcan be like crying in front of
their face, right?
There's such a disconnect andlack of awareness, and I'm just
I'm wondering how that plays outin terms of trying to, let's
say, teach, guide, help.
(22:18):
Different people of differentpersonality types develop these
skills.
I would imagine the ones thatare more have like proclivity
towards already being able tohave the tools.
They'll sort of just blossominto it, and the ones who don't
either might put up resistance,might even question its validity
(22:41):
or its usefulness.
And I'm just wondering if, ifyou, if you kind of seen any of
that experience like you'resitting down with these parents
and you're like, well, you know,we're going to learn more self
awareness, we're going to learnmore about how to tune to the,
you know, to the kid, and oneparent is like almost crying so
excited to connect and I waslike huh, what are you talking
about?
This is like you know this islike macro physics.
(23:04):
You know astronomy.
I have no clue what you'resaying right now to me.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Yeah, I'm laughing because that's the heart of it.
That's exactly it Like, that islike so many of so many of our
children.
And I'm going to talk aboutchildren not because it doesn't
relate to marriages and notbecause it doesn't relate to
mother or father, but becauseit's easier to critique just
getting people who are not us.
(23:31):
You know, anyone who'slistening to this podcast is not
a child.
So yeah what I would say is oneof the things that I tell
parents.
This is that we're not ourgoals never to change another
human being, a person with theirmakeup, has a very distinct
role that we need them to playin this world.
You know the like.
Society needs rubbles and thesociety also needs sticklers,
(23:56):
and society needs people who arelike why are you even talking
about this and deciding like?
None of it's an accident?
And it would be damaging, Iwould say, to try and say that
the other person is not, is notwhat they need to be.
That being said, connection isharder when somebody relates to
(24:16):
the world in a way that'sdifferent than you.
Now, let's say you have tworebels relating.
They might have a lot to relateto, but they might not have so
much to grow from each other, inwhich case they wouldn't be
able to be growing themselves.
Because it is through ourengagement with people who are
other that we actually extendourselves, because otherwise I'm
just living in my life withinthe dimensions that I exist in
(24:39):
and I'm born in those dimensionsand I die in those dimensions,
and it's not a very rich life.
I'm just going to hear the echochamber.
You know that we hear in socialmedia all the things I like
will just be echoed back into myears.
Yeah does it change me?
Does it grow me?
Does it expand me?
That's from a practical space.
Aside from that, there's somuch that we can actually learn
(25:00):
from the other.
The stickler, who needs thingsto be exactly according to the
piece, has a tremendous amountto learn from the rebel and the
rebel from the stickler.
When we look at our children,you know our parents will tell
me all the time like my child isso high energy I can't even
access them at all, like theydon't stay still for a second.
How am I supposed to everconnect with them?
And I feel their pain becausethey still badly want to connect
(25:22):
to their child.
And I think that it comes downto if the parent isn't high
energy finding some commondenominator.
There's a place where you canconnect to your child.
So you can't.
You're not going to relate tothem with jumping on the
trampoline, but maybe you canrelate to them with unpacking
groceries really quickly, Usingtheir strength, sort of
(25:44):
channeling, finding their self.
Who are they, what is theirbeautiful strength and their
greatness?
That society needs, that I need.
They have something that Idon't have.
How do I know?
Because it's friction.
Whenever there's friction, itmeans that there's a piece of it
that I?
It's too far from me?
I don't, it's not within mydimensions.
I am limited within my own self.
But if I can reach across theabyss to reach the other, I'm
(26:06):
going to find something that Idon't have and I need.
There's a part of me that needsthat energy when I'm undoing
groceries and I'm so tired atthe end of the day, and that
child can do it and I can praisethis child and connect to this
child's greatness where they'reat.
That's, I think, the firstplace.
The first place is finding them.
Your child's obsessed with videogames.
All they want to display thevideo games.
(26:27):
Video games are the most boringthing to me.
Why?
What is this dumb alternativereality that's made out of
pixels?
Like your heartbeat is feedingfast.
Like what is thisridiculousness?
The amount of waste of time.
Yet your child has tremendouspassion about feeling successful
.
I can totally get that zombie.
I could totally, you know,build this whole castle with all
(26:49):
of my supplies that I've earned.
Look at that sense ofaccomplishment, a sense of
accomplishment I could relate to.
A sense of accomplishment Whoa.
My child loves accomplishingthat feeling, that dopamine rush
.
I love dopamine rushes.
My child loves dopamine rushes.
I can connect to my child in acommon denominator, because
there is a piece of connection,because at that core, even if
they are one, two, three, four,five, six, nine, whatever it is
(27:11):
at their core, they're human andthere's something incredibly
powerful and incredibly dynamicand incredibly rich that I can
access and will need for myself,even if I need it to say, like,
what is it about myself that'suncomfortable with this?
Why am I so uncomfortable withthis?
I'm going to, I need them toexist in their space because I
need to develop who I am.
(27:31):
You know, we, I'm going to getto this part two, because part
two is really why parents cometo me, which is how do I change
my kid?
You know, but we cannot.
There is no space of connectionto build any skills for
connection until we're actuallyconnected Like they're.
That's like further down theroad is how I can, you know,
work with this child.
(27:52):
We are parents, our guide, our,our role is to guide our child.
We are going to help guide them.
We're not just saying you areas you are and that's it.
Leave your socks on the floorfor all eternity.
You know, that's not.
That's not who we are Like,that's not our role as parents,
but we cannot connect to them toteach them any skills of
connection, which one of thosethings is self responsibility.
(28:14):
You know, accountability, allthese things are part of self
and connecting with self.
But we can't do it unless wecan actually see them, and I
mean like see them as in what?
Who are they?
Who is this?
You know speed?
You know lightning speed childthat's running around in my
house, or a child that's justsitting on the couch, spaced out
, that doesn't want to move, ora child that's coming home with
(28:36):
bloody noses every day.
So how so?
How about?
So, how about?
Speaker 1 (28:41):
resistance.
I'll tell you what I mean.
Again, it's nice I'm picturingthe scenario describing and it's
nice if I'm already sittingwith two parents who are
determined, well defined, likethey.
Like, they know right, this isimportant in their life, they
want to pursue this.
But what about before you?
(29:02):
Right before you can even startimpacting the child?
You're right now dealing withthis parent and you're noticing,
or you're perceiving, one ofthe parents is resisting or is
skeptical or is just outrightdisagreeing with your approach,
with your, with your beliefsystem as to how to deal with
(29:23):
this.
So there, I would imagine therehas to be some prior
conversation as to whether it'seven possible to bring online
this connection that you'redescribing, through which we now
can make positive impact, let's, let's say, on the child or on
each other, or even on ourselves.
But when the, the person'senergy is filled with resistance
(29:46):
, skepticism, I mean, I wouldimagine that that has to be
addressed before there could bemovement to stage two, to
influence and impact andtransform somebody else.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Yes, yes, you're 100% correct, and that really is so
much of the work, because when Ihave two parents in front of me
, usually they both didn'tdecide at the same moment.
Oh yes, this will be a goodapproach for help, to help our
child.
Usually, one of them is moreimportant than the other, which
is just technically.
You know, one of them is on myWhatsApp group and has been
(30:19):
exposed and knows about thesethings.
The other one doesn't.
Now, what that other person isbringing the skeptical parent is
protectiveness for their childis fear, which is underlying, is
tremendous love.
So that is where their startingpoint is, just like our child's
starting point might be highenergy, this parent who comes in
and their starting point isresistance.
(30:41):
Resistance is what we need inthis dynamic, because there's
something there that's sacredthat they're bringing Annoying,
yes, hard to deal with, yes,make things take longer, very
possibly, but that is where whatwe're bringing to the table and
that is inside of that person'sresistance, is something
incredibly powerful.
(31:01):
Usually it's love of theirchild or fear, and usually fear
comes from either history ofhaving failed or a tremendous
sense of like.
I wish I could do this, but Iam too even scared to be hopeful
, like I'm too scared to even behopeful, and that is something
we need to bring to the table,like that.
Why are you afraid to behopeful is because what it is is
(31:23):
so important to you.
Your child's skills are soimportant.
There's something that's evendeeper, that's so important that
to not have that is scary, toeven hope, to wish to have that
and then to maybe this personcan help me.
Maybe this person can't help me.
And that's the same thing whenour child comes and many of the
kids I work with the familiesthe child has a diagnosis ADHD,
(31:44):
asd, sometimes no diagnosis,maybe should have diagnosis,
maybe it doesn't matter.
It doesn't even really matterbecause the diagnosis is just
describing these core pieces.
This child might be sooverwhelmed by sensory input
that they can't engage.
So what is happening in yourchild?
Your child is working so, so,so hard every minute because the
light is flashing too much forthem and the materials on their
(32:06):
shirt are scratching them andthe sounds like whoa, this child
is a warrior.
So when I relate to this child,I'm relating to this warrior
that's here, and or the parentthat's coming and is resistant,
or the spouse that's coming andis like I can't ever work on
this relationship.
What you think that I'm going tobe talking about, my feelings
is going to help me.
You're telling me looking intomy body and trying to find where
(32:27):
my body's experiencing emotionsgoing to help me.
I think I'm supposed to rulefrom my head.
My head has always been good,been there for me, okay, good,
your head has been there for you.
That is a really importantthing to keep in mind.
We need to make sure that yourhead is signing off.
That part of you is signing offon what you're doing, on the
work you're doing, because it'salways been there for you and
it's been something you canalways rely on.
So you need to make sure thatyour head's on board the pieces
(32:50):
that we have, the parts ofourselves.
Each self is going to be theconduit.
That's what I'm saying.
The step one is always going tobe self, and the self is the
parent self, the spouse self,the child self, and that's where
it really comes to that.
We all are in this processbecause there's always more
(33:11):
parts of us and it's never goingto be boring.
We're never going to beplateaued, even in our plateau.
That's also communicating to usStagnating Nothing's helping,
nothing's working, thatstagnation is communicating to
us.
It's just beautiful, becausenothing of Hashem's creation,
nothing of our experiences issomething that we can't be
(33:31):
involved in and engage with andgrow with.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
I want to make like a 180 on the highway and ask you
a question that's going to shiftus into kind of a new
trajectory.
I'm very curious to know if youhave an experience with this,
and if not, it's okay.
But I'm just curious if youhave a perspective on what about
(33:56):
divorced homes?
Right, I mean, I have my ownbackground I'm happy to share if
it will be relevant.
We know that, of course, withthat again, looking up any
statistics, there's enormousimpact on a child's journey when
the child experiences theirworld, their nuclear family,
being torn apart or be brokendown.
(34:17):
It leaves tremendous scars andwhich results in all kinds of
acting out and behavioral issues, etc.
Etc.
There's so much that kind offlows out of that explosion that
takes place in the family.
So I'm just very curious toalso hear.
I feel like we so far areanalyzing where the starting
(34:41):
point is okay, there's a familyunit, it's relatively intact,
and now we're trying to do somework on strengthening the family
system, building closer bonds,connections between various
members within the system.
But what about when the systempermanently breaks, or
permanently is going toredefinement or right?
(35:04):
There's divorce and thenremarriage and so now there's
more people brought into thesystem.
I'm just curious if you couldspeak to terms of teaching
parents.
I guess there have been twoparents that came and said you
know they want to, they want tofigure out how to deal with
their kid.
Or just if you just yourselfmade any observations, I myself
(35:26):
just kind of for years wouldwatch all these things unfold,
just kind of, first as being adivorce attorney and then now
working with couples.
It comes up all the time butI'm always curious to understand
better and really deeper whatis going on in those children as
they experience themselves andtheir world around them when
(35:47):
they kind of live through atraumatic event such as a
divorce and end of a familysystem.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Sorry, it's so sad.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
That's why I got out.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
This is how I think about challenges that people
engage with.
The work is different when aperson is currently in a state
of unsafety, like you don'tstart doing trauma therapy with
somebody while the fire is stillraging.
You try and get them safe whilethe fire is still raging, you
take them out of the building.
(36:22):
You know they can't be in thatspace, but then afterwards they
have to learn how to feel safeagain and that thing that was
extremely destructive fire canactually help a child learn
internal tools to developthemselves, where they become
makers of themselves.
Now that could mean that theyhave to learn how to build
(36:44):
bricks.
That for another child theydon't have to learn how to build
bricks because their buildingis intact, they never had a fire
.
So that child will develop,know themselves.
If they can heal, if they'reguided in healing and if they're
given the tools and the support, you know that they could build
something that is really fromthemselves.
(37:05):
That they'll have created theirinternal sense of safety,
because it won't have just comenaturally from having a stable
building that they lived in.
They had to learn themselves.
You know, and it's on a verycore body level Anytime you know
, that trauma is stored in thebody.
So they have to sort of createnew neurons in their brain, find
(37:27):
safety in their physical spaceand their physical body, and
that safety will be somethingthat they've made.
They'll be stronger becausethey've made it.
It'll also be like scarier alittle bit because they made it.
They'll have to think of thingsthat another child won't have
to think about, like plumbing,electricity.
How does this?
How do I build this building?
You know, certain senses ofregulation will be much more
(37:51):
challenging, but they will owntheir process.
They'll own it, and when theycome into their marriages and
into their relationships they'regoing to be working really hard
.
But any part of theirrelationship that they build
will be theirs.
They'll have made it.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
It really is like now that.
I'm listening to like oh man,maybe I should have asked that
question.
Why it's such a no, it's such ano, not me as in, like I also
like, when I take it in, youjust it's so hard as an adult
where you know most adultsalready sort of experience some
kind of bruising, scars, tissuemeaning in our adult forms we're
(38:31):
.
It's almost like you take itfor granted, you know, until the
pain kind of reaches a certainunbearable threshold.
So then maybe we're like okay,it is uncomfortable, so it's so
easy to just overlook for alittle child.
Their entire resistance isbeing channeled through the
family concept, the existence ofthis unit called the family,
(38:56):
that they have these two parentsand they take care of me and
even if sometimes they're notdoing such a good job, but the
existence of the unit itself isan anchor of their world.
And I can tell you that, by theway, that a lot of times I don't
want to like give impression,not like majority of time, but
frequently enough couples willtell me, either together or one
(39:20):
of the spouses, that I'm stayingin this relationship because of
the children.
I don't want, I don't want thisrelationship, but I don't.
But I know the harm that willbe inflicted on the children.
I don't want that impact orharm to happen.
Or sometimes both spouses willsay that and they'll stick
around just to avoid opposingharm to the child.
(39:41):
And so I know that for a lot ofpeople who listen to my type of
show or it's always aboutrelationships the children very
often become this sort of abackground variable that is not
very much talked about in termsof things that are pressurizing
(40:01):
relationship, stressing therelationship between the spouses
, but it's very much present inthe background.
It really is playing an activerole in what goes on in the
relationship space between theadults.
But it's interesting how likefor some people it's like
literally the defining featureof to stick around or not to
(40:27):
break up a family or not breakup children or you know I don't
really know.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
You know every, every time I don't know.
I would never.
I don't know anyone's choice orspace to make any of these
decisions.
You know that's solely in theirown space to be able to figure
out what they need.
But there's a lot of differenttypes of fires.
The divorce is one type of fireand fighting is another type of
(40:53):
fire and there's a lot ofdifferent.
There's a lot of differentthings and, as I was saying
before, if let's say thechildren become the impetus,
like, okay, let's work this outbecause of the children, that's
sort of like let me work out howI relate to the itchiness in my
sock for myself, because of mychild's itchiness in their sock,
my relationship with my like itbecomes the impetus, like it's
(41:16):
all, it's all part of thepicture, because they're all
pieces that can.
That are the challenging pieces.
But actually the spaces forgrowth, like it is those
conflicts that are the space forgrowth.
Like he likes croutons, shedoesn't like croutons.
Every time she puts croutons inthe salad.
That's a place of conflict.
They put different, differentthings.
She puts croutons.
(41:36):
For him, that place of frictionbecame the place of connection,
the actual space of friction.
So let's say the child's needs,like this is very, very common,
especially when you know aregular dynamic.
A regular relationship has itschallenges because there's two
selves engaging.
So like, okay, basic challenge,you know large basic challenge.
(41:58):
But then add on let's say, achild, a child additional, and
then add on a child with thediagnoses and the strain that
that could put on a relationshipand that, and I've seen, like
the choices people have madewithin that.
You know what happens when onespouse doesn't pick up, what is
that, and then the other parent,the other spouses, left
carrying the whole thing, thewhole load.
(42:19):
Or what happens when twospouses band together, or what
happens.
You know the choices that wemake within the conflict.
That's, that's the, that'swhere connection is.
Is what are we doing withinthat space?
What are we doing within that?
The two selves?
You know that's one of the corething, one of the core.
(42:40):
The core, I would say the coreskill of relationship skills
after having a self, is theperspective taking up like okay,
who was the other and how do Irelate to the other?
And that's the part where weget to like be way bigger than
we ever were, ever or we couldever possibly be without the
other.
I could never imagine having somuch internal endurance to be
(43:03):
able to carry the weight oftaking care of this child.
I never thought I would be ableto have that.
I never thought I'd have asmuch love and persistence and
dedication I never would havebeen able to have that.
Is it because the other person'snot carrying the load?
What does it mean that they'renot carrying the load?
What's going on in their worldthat they feel so?
What?
Because they can't overload,carry the load that they're
(43:24):
leaving me alone in the dark?
I know that they care about me.
They told me before they caredabout me but why aren't they
showing up what's happening intheir world?
And that's like the fundamentalsof social skills, like the when
I say fundamentals, like that'sat the core, core, core, heart
of it is can I take care ofmyself enough, value myself
enough, see my own spark enoughthat I have energy?
(43:44):
And I have the desire to seethe other person's spark and to
see their energy.
Can I is there, can I?
Can I have that?
Can I have enough self that Ican feel safe enough in myself
that I can reach beyond andaccess the other and understand
what's the other?
Where is the other?
Oh, they're sleeping.
Oh, I should be quiet whenthey're sleeping.
(44:04):
My grandmother came from faraway and she wants to give me a
hug.
I don't really like hugs, but Ishould give her a hug because,
from her perspective, you know,can I do that?
Oh, I want to be a lovingperson, I want to give to her, I
will hug her.
I don't like hugs, but I willhug her because I want to see
the other's perspective, type ofthing.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
I'm going to take you on the roller coaster.
Here comes another wave of atotally different nature.
Do you find and again I maybeI'll weigh in I do want to share
my controversial perspective onthis, but I'm also very curious
to hear yours Do you find anydifferences from the work you're
(44:43):
doing in the genders?
Because what I found are twothings, and the things I'm going
to share now are more anecdotalthan rooted in research, and I
think sometimes I have momentswhere I'm like one day I should
really take a look at some kindof a really big longitudinal
study so I could like have areal research backing what I'm
(45:07):
about to say, because I'mliterally sharing only just from
observing, of handling thecases and families that I've
handled over the years, and thefollowing patterns have emerged
for me during moments of high,high conflict, high tension,
women tended to become morerational, grounded.
(45:33):
Men become irrational andemotional and the decisions, the
quality of the decision makingprocess that's the words I
wanted to say the quality of thedecision making process to me
was always significantly higherin women and significantly
reduced in men.
(45:53):
Men tended to go into survivalmode.
Women were very much otheroriented, wanted to figure out a
compromise Men tended to bestubborn very much from my way
of the highway and I'm wonderingif you could share, or if you
ever thought about thatobservation of sitting with
(46:14):
parents, sort of a couple aftercouple after couple, and you
know they're, they're sharingwith you their stories or
grappling with their childrenand sort of just how they
present, as they talk about, asthey struggle with it.
I wonder if you noticed any sortof gender defining aspects,
(46:35):
because the reason the reason Ifeel like it's important to talk
about is not only like to pointout the difference in genders
is I feel that if we really sortof pin down and define the
difference, then we can teach,educate, apply different
standards, approaches to eachrespective gender that would
(46:58):
allow them to be more effective,be more accessing state of
connections.
That's why I think it'simportant versus sort of one
science fits all here's whateverybody should be doing and to
a disregard of maybe veryimportant characteristics such
as gender and how that'simpacting the person's overall
experience of being relational.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
It reminds me a little bit of like the
neuroscience behind.
You know, the base of our brainis where survival is in our
Olympic system.
Our feelings are right next toour survival states and I would
make the generalization ofsaying that women are generally
probably more emotional and intheir space of survival, sort of
like cut off their flow totheir emotions in survival
(47:43):
meaning it's the same survivalstate that might make them in.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
Yeah, but it's okay, we'll delete it.
It's okay, we're gonna bewrapping up and I'm gonna delete
all this, it's okay.
You started sharing how youfind, which is very I actually
find this very interesting.
I never thought in those termsthat the very thing that's sort
of like the strength, the thingthat woman leans on is, let's
(48:16):
say, the her emotional capacityactually gets cut off, you're
saying, and then she sort ofbecomes.
Speaker 2 (48:23):
I think it's survival Cerebral.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
But you're saying it's not a cerebral from a place
of relaxed state of thinking,it's a survival cerebral.
But then how will you explainthe man?
Speaker 2 (48:35):
I think that's me.
It's made of like biologics.
She is in for her best stateshe is, and when he is in for
his best state and I think thatthey both sort of are just
trying to let's try somethingelse.
And I don't even think that, ifit's a decision, I think it's
like a man's job is to protectand provide.
(48:56):
So if let's say they have to,let me buckle down on my nest
and don't let anyone in, don'tlet anyone out.
I have to protect my nest itleads to rigidity and it leads
to I'm going to switch to notbreak next to the drill.
Oh, you're home, Okay, great.
Sorry, I'm not in a rush, myhair needs to be here.
You have to watch her, Okay.
Okay, she had reset.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
Yeah, sure, but you're up there, you're frozen.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
Okay, okay.
So basically, the way that Iunderstand it is that when we
are in our prime state, like themost, ideal is that our whole
brain is in, you know, symbioticuse.
Our thoughts, our feelings, ourbody states are all being taken
into account and then, from afrontal lobe place, we make
(49:43):
decisions and it takes intoaccount all of it.
The way Dan Siegel describes itis that you put your hand, you
put, you know, tuck your thumbin to cover your fingers.
Your frontal lobe is by yournails and it's hugging your
whole brain.
It's taking everything intoaccount and it's making good
decisions.
When we're in a place of fear ordanger, then our if it changes.
(50:04):
Things are the way that thingsare supposed to flow, aren't
flowing.
So very often I'll have mothersthat'll come and they're in
problem solving their child.
Their children will be fightingand then suddenly they're
resolving all the fights.
If they were in a place ofcenteredness and that all their
had they had complete blood flowto their whole cells, then they
(50:24):
would think, okay, I want toteach my child a skill here,
this conflict, my kids arefighting, I don't want to
resolve the fight for them.
Yes, it will give me immediatequiet, but it's not going to
give them life skills.
So they're also responding froma place of lack of safety and
so they're coming to conclusions.
They're also out of touch, outof sync with their naturally
(50:45):
more emotionally selves and notthinking in a balanced way by
trying to problem solve, wherevery often I'll find the father
or the man will hunker down andhe's to protect his territory
and he doesn't have anysolutions to this.
There's not anything in hismind and there's not really so
(51:06):
much blood flow going to thefront of his brain because his
body sending a message of danger, danger, danger.
So he's going to hunker downand protect his nest for all his
worth and nothing's allowed inand nothing's allowed out, and
that looks very rigid andbecause he's in, he's like
that's his fight, her fightlooks like okay, let me quickly
resolve all the issues.
Let me you know if I take careof all the other people around
(51:28):
me, I'll be safe or thesituation will be resolved.
It's not like more caring orless caring, or more loving or
less loving, it's survival.
And they both look likesurvival.
They both are fear based andwhen we can address our fear and
address like oh my gosh, I'mgoing to be safe even if I have
a conflict right now, and mychild is going to be able to be
safe.
How can a child be safe througha conflict?
(51:50):
How can I feel safe in aconflict?
Oh, this is going to be themoment where I be, when I
actually develop my life'smission, which is grow myself
and connect.
That's how I could be safe evennow, even when my kids are
tearing each other's hair out,even when my spouse is refusing
to X, because in this space isthe place where growth happens,
and that's the point.
(52:11):
So then, their safety, even inthat place of lack of safety.
Speaker 1 (52:14):
Yeah, I think they're great points.
Do you have techniques or like?
Could you share any tips orskills when you're trying to
help somebody either do selfregulation or just to kind of
become more grounded if they'reif they're just feeling off or
dysregulated.
Do you have any specific go tothings you like?
Speaker 2 (52:34):
Yes, my, my favorite one is ground yourself, because
we have something called mirrorneurons, which are the same
brainwaves that actually allowour children to learn language
when they hear us saying a wordand they're able to mirror back
or even like a little infant.
You can hold a little baby,stick your tongue out and
(52:57):
they'll stick their tongue backout back at you.
That's mirror neurons.
That's how they learn about theworld.
We're social beings, createdsocially, and when we step
inwards, we're going to learn.
When we step inwards, thespouse is still freaking out,
the kid is still freaking out.
Okay, I can find internalsafety.
We actually, aside from us notfeeling like we're losing it, we
(53:17):
actually also provide an oasis.
Someone told me I don't know ifthis is true, I don't know if
this is research based they saidup to nine feet, a person can
sense the emotions of anotherperson.
I don't.
Speaker 1 (53:27):
I don't know if that's true or not, but you said
within nine feet, yeah, withinnine feet, yeah.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
I don't know if I don't know if it's true.
I the reason why I repeat it,even though I don't know if it's
true, is because it resonateslike when your kids are falling
apart.
Speaker 1 (53:42):
Maybe you're, maybe you're a four, maybe.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
I'm a four, then it's this it's this interesting
thing to be able to groundyourself, be centered in
yourself, and that actually canprovide that support, that
anchoring, so the other peoplearound you have that capacity to
also.
Oh, there is safety in thisroom.
(54:05):
Right now, I feel likeeverything is, you know, upside
down topsy-turvy.
Oh wait, I'm sensing there isthis person of safety here in my
presence.
Okay, and to go real soon fromthere.
Speaker 1 (54:18):
It's funny You're reminding me of when I was doing
my master's in marriage therapy.
We had a series of classescalled the body in the room and
basically this this professorwas essentially trying to build
a case and it was happens to belooking back.
I was very much sold was veryconvincing argument, which the
(54:41):
idea is that what do we tend todo?
We tend to sit down if that andwe just start talking about the
problem and we just discussedit and we assume all there was
is, let's say, some intellectualblockage to clarity and if we
speak it out with words, we'rejust going to arrive at whatever
conclusion we need to arrive.
And what he was basically shownus and we were practicing this
(55:05):
and in like small groups toexperience it for ourselves is,
if the body is itself in adysregulated state, if the body
is holding tension, stress, someform of discomfort, and you
don't bring the body into a morepresent, relaxed state, that
(55:27):
directly impacts the quality ofthe mind, the emotion and the
energy within of being able tobe present, relational, holding
space for the other person.
And so I was so fascinated bythis, I decided to experiment,
and this is then.
I pretty much do it everysession pretty much, which is
(55:48):
the way I start sessions withcouples.
Before they do what we call themodel dialogue, I just have
them close their eyes and we dolike small meditation where I
just kind of help them tobreathe through the day, breathe
through whatever they feelthey're sitting with as they're
going into the session, and thewhole idea is to sort of just
(56:09):
kind of unburden and step outeven if it's temporarily step
out from the sense of thepressure of my life and all the
things I have to deal with.
Can I just be present for thenext hour?
Can I just be present?
And many couples have sharedthat the quality of the session
(56:29):
itself, the actual interactionwith their spouse was, like
qualitatively different whenthey attempted to dialogue after
centering.
So we go with centering asopposed to where they sit down
and say, okay, hi, nice to seeyou, good afternoon, okay, let's
dialogue and something in thatexperience was missing was the
(56:53):
chair.
Like, yeah, we exchanged thewords, but I'm still feeling
unsettled, I'm still feelinglike something's off, whereas a
significant contrast tosituation for couples.
You know, we're sitting downand before we jump into the work
, just invite the body to relaxand like the more this body is
relaxed, the more the mind, theemotion is available, and I
(57:17):
won't steal.
Yes, I guess I was justwondering to hear if there's
anything more you do in terms ofeither working with the body or
looking at how just the body'splace in the entire dynamic, how
it's impacting and thereforewhat, if anything, to do about
it.
Like I said, like, just like,let's say, my session is in OB
(57:40):
two to four minute meditationfor a couple, just to breathe
through their body and just letthe body relax and be present.
That actually sets the mind fora more, you know, available,
accessible journey.
So it seems like there is mybody connection in that way.
Speaker 2 (57:59):
Yes, very much so that resonates very much.
I find that a lot.
I'm actually doing a trainingnow, a film there, with somatic
experiencing, but I wanted todeepen my understanding of felt
sense, which somatic experienceis very much like about the body
and like really learning thebody, and I feel like felt sense
is sort of the focusing, islike the conversation between
(58:24):
the two, and I find that verymuch.
I find that, you know, acrossthe board, we have two.
We have parts of us, parts ofus as our body and part of us as
our mind, and they're justparts.
You know, our soul isn't eitherof them, they're just, they're
tools.
Both of them are tools and themore that we take all of our
tools and we let them all worktogether and communicate with
(58:45):
each other, the more effectivewe are and happier and freer and
available for growth.
Speaker 1 (58:50):
If you find that, yes , do you have advice for parents
who would want to help theiryes, who would want to help
their ромбуктча с.
Who would want to help theirромбукча ромбукча?
Speaker 2 (59:10):
ромбукча, ромбукча, ромбукча ромбукча ромбукча,
(01:00:17):
ромбукча ромбукча, ромбукчаромбукча, ромбукча ромбукча,
(01:02:44):
ромбукча ромбукча, ромбукча.
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