Understanding and Counteracting Domestic Violence with Shaya Kraus

What if your relationship could be transformed from a power struggle to a harmonious partnership? Join us as we unravel the complexities of marriage and relationships with Shaya Kraus, a mental health professional, and clinical supervisor at the Rambam Family Health Center. His wealth of knowledge and experience, specifically in couples counseling, and domestic violence awareness, play a pivotal role in guiding us through this journey of understanding the elements that make or break relationships.

In this engaging conversation, we delve into the importance of continuing education in marriage, the indicators of domestic violence, and the role of couples therapy in correcting power imbalances. Ishaq enlightens us on the difference between character illogical abuse and situational abuse and the significance of safety, trust, and a strong history in maintaining balanced relationships. His unique approach to couples work focuses on building attachments and creating positive connections—elements that are essential in cultivating a flourishing relationship.

We also explore the emotional development of children and the impact of parental relationships on their future attitudes and behaviors. Understanding the need to have uncomfortable conversations and destigmatize mental health struggles, we discuss the role of social and emotional learning in equipping young people with the tools to make healthy relationship choices. This enlightening conversation ultimately stresses the importance of understanding, mutual respect, and trust in relationships. Tune in to this episode and discover how to create a safe, fulfilling, and balanced relationship.

Support the show

Episode Transcript

Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hello and welcome to dating, marriage and divorce
conversations where we analyze,navigate, troubleshoot all
stages of your romantic life.
I'm your host, igor Meisterman,a divorce attorney turned
relationship coach.
Hello everybody, welcome backto the show.

(00:28):
I'm really excited about thisguest, ishaq Kraus, who has
extensive history in the fieldof mental health.
He also worked at anorganization called the Shaolin
Task Force.
He also has private practiceand he currently is clinical
supervisor and therapist at theRam Bam Family Health Center.
Thank you so much for takingthe time to join us today.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
Thank you so much for having me Really excited.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
Maybe a great way to start would be if you could
share with our listeners justkind of a little bit about your
own journey, how you got intothis line of work, what brings
you here, what inspires youabout mental health?

Speaker 1 (01:01):
Sure.
So I was in Yashiva for a while.
It came time to get out there,get a job, something at myself.
The one thing that reallyresonated with me was, ever
since I was younger, I wasalways the person that people
would come to talk to.
Friends would feel comfortableopening up about different
things that they were goingthrough and I seem to be pretty
helpful in my listening.
So I figured let's kind of takethis to the next level.

(01:22):
I went to social work school.
I went to get my master's andmy goal when I went in there was
I want to be a couplescounselor.
I had read up on couplescounseling and just like the
concept of marriage it wassomething like I guess you could
say I was always apsychological thinker and just
the concept of relationships,the concept of how people
interact with each other, justthe idea that people even can

(01:45):
relate to each other and connectwith each other, is just so
fascinated me Like.
I'll give you an example.
I was a weird kid and Iremember at one point when I was
a kid I was 5th or 6th gradeI'm walking through the hallway
and the thought popped into myhead isn't it an amazing thing
that people have this ability touse language and to form a
relationship with each other, toconnect with each other.

(02:05):
It's like, theoretically youthink about it very
theoretically this is 5th grademe talking very theoretically we
could both be speakingcompletely different languages
that happen to have the samewords and having completely
different conversations, andsomehow we take these funny
sounds that our mouths make andwe assign meaning to them.
And not only did we assignmeaning to them, but we run our
lives based on these things.

(02:26):
So this whole concept ofrelationships was really
fascinating.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
Wow, it's really fascinating and very different
from my own story, if I may add,because I began in the family
courtwork system and thendecided to pursue mental health.
But can you share, how did youget to the point where you are
now?
So it was a journey.

Speaker 1 (02:43):
It was a journey.
So, first, my first positionafter graduating was I was put
in an outpatient mental healthclinic, which was an amazing
experience.
I did not actually see anycouples there, so it was still
kind of like waiting, but it was.
It was amazing.
I think my youngest client thatI worked with was six.
The oldest client that I workedwith was 78.
And we had people coming in allsorts of challenges and I don't

(03:04):
like calling them diagnoses,even though, yes, we did operate
based on the DSM and all thesedifferent diagnoses but just the
challenges that people werefacing in life, whether it was
depression, anxiety, hardship,issues, general, like the
challenges that life threw atthese people.
And some of them I rememberfeeling like, oh, this person, I
helped this person.
Some people like, as I said,the case with everybody on their

(03:26):
learning journey.
Like some people, in retrospectthere could have been a better
outcome for them or maybe thingsthat could have gone
differently, but it was anamazing learning experience for
me.
So I had like a whole swath ofdifferent exposures in that in
that setting ended up working ina bunch of schools, also into a
bunch of different issues inthe New York area, working with
kids, mainly K to eight, butsome K to 12 as well, and I

(03:49):
ended up in a Shalom task forceabout four years ago and that
was really my first couplesbased position, even though I
had done some work with couplesand like, just privately I've
done some training, but that waslike the first time that I
really was immersed in workingwith relationships and it's
really been such a it soundsfunny to say it we're going to
talk about an organizationthat's really focuses on
domestic violence, but like it'sjust been such an amazing,

(04:10):
fascinating experience to learnmore about how people interact
each other, learn more aboutwhat it means for an individual
when they're interacting withsomeone else.
It's been fascinating.
I'm quite a trip.

Speaker 2 (04:21):
Not to me.
This is one of those questionswhere I almost feel like I wish
I didn't have to ask you, butsure for some listeners, either
whether it's for themselves, godforbid or if it's for a friend
or a relative, can you explainmore just about what Shalom task
force is, what it does, whatits mission is and how does it
help people in need?
Okay, sure.

Speaker 1 (04:40):
So I mean, just before I get into that, just to
give you the context, give you alittle bit of a framework about
what the agency looks like as awhole, and then we can kind of
zoom into my part of it.
Pretty much anybody who'sopened up Jewish publication
over the past barely 20 years orso probably seen one of our ads
.
You are not alone.
It hurts to be abused, thingslike that.
That's an ad for our hotline.
The hotline has been theflagship program of Shalom Task

(05:00):
Force for pretty much close tosince the beginning of the
organization, and the hotline isbasically a place where people
can call in completely anonymousand they can share their
concerns about whatever theirrelationships might be.
And that's really the mostimportant part of the fact that
they have that anonymous placeto just call and talk and just
share, and very often it's thefirst time people who are going
through these situations haveever actually spoken about it
with anybody.
In and of itself can be verypowerful, but it's also a place

(05:22):
where we can sometimes getreferrals for other services,
whether it's to other agencieswho offer more concrete services
, whether it's referrals fortherapists, which very often is
something that can be atremendous support for victims.
We also do have a legaldepartment which does
representation in New York,whether it's consultation or
presentation in the courts thatare involved with domestic
violence cases, so we're able tokind of refer out.

(05:44):
So after a while of running thehotline, there was this theme
that came up that we noticed alot of people calling in and
saying I noticed that there werethese issues at the beginning
of the relationship.
I noticed that there were theseissues when we were dating.

Speaker 2 (05:57):
Any number of rationalizations.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
That's why I didn't pay attention to it.
These rationalizations willmake a lot of sense.
I didn't want to mess things up.
I didn't want to rock the boat.
There was family pressure,there was social pressure.
I was looking to avoid adifferent situation which was
worse than what I thought Imight be involved in time.
And now, years down the road,they're married, they have kids
and they feel like they'rereally just stuck and they wish
somebody would have told them tojust pay attention to actually

(06:18):
how you're feeling, payattention to what those feelings
are actually telling you andwork with that.
So, based on that and that iswhere that's where the education
department of Shalom Passwordscame out and we go to a lot of
different settings.
We talk to high school studentsabout relationships, about
making healthy decisions andrelationships about domestic
abuse awareness.
We have programs that we run inhigh schools, not just like in

(06:41):
single classes, but we have oneprogram right now where we have
some students from the schoolactually creating an awareness
event for domestic violenceawareness.
That involves, like, the entireschool.
There's a presentation or aproject, or some can be a
schoolwide project.
I've spoken to Rob Bonham aboutthese issues I've spoken to
just earlier today, not earliertoday, earlier this week, I

(07:03):
spoke to a group of therapistsat a local clinic.
I guess you could say themission statement of the
education department is toprovide wraparound awareness to
the community because from whatwe see and this is not just
talking about domestic violencethis is for healthy
relationships in general.
The more healthy relationshipsare spoken about on a community
level, the more willing and themore able people are to

(07:27):
contemplate the idea of seekinghelp and to even, like, think of
the idea.

Speaker 2 (07:30):
Think about it.

Speaker 1 (07:31):
Let's say you find this a lot with other mental
health issues as well.
Very frequently people describeaddiction like this.
It's a very isolating feeling.
Depression, also anxiety allthese things can be very
isolating.
But if you think that there'ssomething wrong with me and it's
something that no one else hasexperienced and can ever
understand, you're much lesslikely to reach out.
Because even if I do reach out,who's going to understand me?

(07:52):
Who's going to really be ableto do anything with this?
There's no hope.
But when it becomes part of thecommunity discussion, when it
just comes part of the fabric orthe community that we talk
about relationships, we talkabout healthy relationships, we
talk about abuse, we talk aboutsupporting people and we talk
about connecting with otherpeople in a healthy way, then
yeah, it's still going to beuncomfortable because at the end
of the day it hurts, but it'sgoing to be less uncomfortable

(08:14):
when it's something thateverybody knows about and talks
about.
So that's really the goal ofthe education department.

Speaker 2 (08:18):
I realize that this point I'm going to make might be
a bit risky and maybe I'll evenget some criticism for this,
but hey, I guess it's my podcast, so I have a little bit of
leeway to bring up somethingthat might be somewhat
controversial or evenuncomfortable for people to hear
.
But one thing that I'm verycurious to hear your take on is
why is it that when it comes tosuch an all-encompassing,

(08:39):
all-pervasive topic of our lives, such as building families,
working on Shalom Bias, workingon our relationships, parenting,
I mean, these are skills thatare essential and they're there
with us every single day toeither serve us or to put us
into real and comfortablesituations, and yet, when it
comes to the plethora ofeducation available in the
religious Jewish world, thereseems to be such a shortage of

(09:02):
real discussion taking in theforefront of people's minds.
And in fact there could be allthis emphasis on the different
laws of Shabbos and Koshchersand all other kinds of
obligations, but when it comesto giving like a real focused
effort, other than, you know,during the Shave-Evim series at
a specific time of the year, therest of the time I'm finding
people are very much in cruisecontrol slash survival mode and

(09:25):
are not really engaging in afocused, concentrated way into
what is for sure, one of thebright, biggest areas of life
that we're going to have and thelegacy we'll leave behind for
the next generation.
It almost seems like a footnotein this bigger picture, this
bigger journey of our lives.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?

Speaker 1 (09:43):
It's a very interesting point.
It really is.
I'm not sure why it's true.
I agree that there isdefinitely a vast
under-representation ofeducation on that front.
I have to give this one somethought, honestly, because, like
it's a true point, there reallyis not that much and you'll see
, you'll see everyone's around.
I mean, you look on Torah andthere are definitely a lot of
different shiurim that you canlisten to that talk about
Shonbais, and I haven't listenedto all of them, I can't comment

(10:05):
on the quality of the actualcontent, but I would say that
there is definitely an awarenessof Shonbais being something of
importance.
You know, you talk to anyChasen teacher.
There are certainly, I think,on a certain mobile, there are
certain community mandates.
Like you talk to a Chasenteacher and, aside from learning
the Halafas that are pertinentto marriage, you're also going
to get some sort of a schmoozeabout, you know, making sure

(10:25):
that you're nice to your wifeand making sure that the home
runs in a way which is peacefuland calm.
Like you know, I've heard thatthere are a lot of teachers who
will really go like, on a morebroad scale than there are some
who will really go into the morenitty-gritty details, like to
the point of like making sureyou put the cat back on the
toothpaste, and things like that, which, quite honestly, like it
sounds funny, but I think thereare many people who, when
they're living the single lifewhether they're in Ishiba,

(10:46):
they're out of Ishiba, whateverit is they're doing, it's just
not really something thatnecessarily pops into their mind
.
So it's important to hold that.
I think that there isdefinitely a lack of, I guess we
could call it continuingeducation, so to speak.
I mean, I know as a socialworker and required to do a
certain number of continuingeducation credits for every
renewal period, I'm sure as alawyer.
There's also yeah mostprofessions, I think, have
something like that, and I heardthis amazing line I think it

(11:08):
was in the name of RivershyeKron, but I could be wrong, so I
apologize if it's not him butsomething along the lines of
there's no, there's no licensingrequirement to be a parent, and
I think, on a very similarlevel there's, for some reason,
there's no licensing requirementto be married.
And, yeah, there should beongoing classes, there should be
ongoing discussions in thecommunity about different things

(11:30):
that you can do, because, likeokay, yeah, like I don't.
I don't feel the need torelearn first grade math because
that's not changing as much asI change as a person.
One plus one is always going tobe equal.
To that being said, life goeson.
We all change as people and ifwe all change as well, the
information that we have beengiven when we first got married,
or the assumptions that we comeinto relationships with that
may have served us well, aresubject to change.

(11:51):
And unless you have arelationship which is like
really super healthy and you canreally just discuss all these
things back and forth withoutany questions or problems
whatsoever, you're going to haveto have some way of kind of
bring these out, figuring outhow to kind of synchronize the
new you with the new presence.
You know I'm thinking all thoselines.

Speaker 2 (12:07):
I'm realizing.
Before we go further and reallytake even a deeper dive into
this whole topic of what goes onin homes, especially when
things go awry, when there'sjust a breakdown of a family
system, I'm curious to just hearcan you give us a very general
understanding, maybe even like aworking definition, of what is
domestic violence?
What is defined as violence intoday's world, with

(12:29):
microaggressions and peoplebeing hypersensitive?
At which point do we say thatsomething crosses a threshold of
being so unacceptable that wecould label it as domestic
violence?

Speaker 1 (12:38):
So that's a great question and I like the textbook
answer to that is like that.
So the textbook definition ofhow we conceptualize domestic
violence is that there's apattern of behavior in which one
party is using whatever powerthey have within the
relationship to control theother one and there's the
presence of fear based on thatattempt to power and control.

(12:59):
Like you think about it, in anyrelationship there's going to
be a power balance, like forsure.
Like just picture the analogy Ilike to use.
Let's say you have a 500 poundbodybuilder whose wife is like
four foot 10 and weighs 90pounds.
There's a very obvious powerimbalance.
It's like you know.
But they have like the bestrelationship in the world.
They're loving and caring andwonderful.
So what's, what is it that makesit that that power and battle

(13:21):
doesn't affect theirrelationship negatively?
The answer is that there'ssafety.
The answer is that there'strust and the answer is that
there's a.
There's a built up history,there's a foundation of the
bodybuilder never using thatpower in a way which might hurt
his wife.
Now, if he would take thatpower, god forbid, and he would
say you know, I'm going to usemy power to control, I'm going
to use it to enforce decisionsand take away her ability to

(13:43):
self direct in any one aspect ofour relationship.
That would be, that would beabusive.
You know there are some someclinical researchers.
John Gottman differentiatesbetween what he calls character
illogical abuse and situationalabuse.
Situational abuse is reallymore a matter of just not being
able to regulate properly.
For the most part, the abusethat we're talking about when

(14:05):
it's an issue of power andcontrol, that's character
illogical.
That's the kind of thing wherea person feels it's my right to
act like this, it's myresponsibility to act like this,
and it has really very littleto do with the actual
relationship.
It's just that person, theabuser, having that mindset of
it's okay for me to do this andtherefore I will.
The flip side of that Shalom byis where there's lack of

(14:27):
communication, whether theydon't have the ability to
communicate properly.
They have like all these, likeissues that are kind of like
blocking.
There's no effort necessarilyto have control the other one in
a way which instills fear.
There may be a pattern ofbehaviors in which they're not
clicking.
There's an incompatibilitythere.
But it's not a matter of tryingto control the other person by
instilling fear and taking overthe other person's life.

Speaker 2 (14:48):
Now I probably know that my focus is emogotherapy.
That's the therapy work I didwith my wife for about five
years.
It was an amazing journey, andthat's the modality I very much
turn to when I'm doing emog work, couples work, and so I'm very
curious to know what about you?
Do you find that you turn to aspecific set of tools,

(15:09):
approaches, modalities, andwould love to hear more just
what you found effective?
Do you find differentsituations and need a different
tool in the toolbox?
Can you share more about whatyour approach is when you're
doing couples work?

Speaker 1 (15:25):
Yeah.
So when I work with couples,I'm not a purist in any one
particular modality.
What I work with couples Imostly use EFT as a framework.
It's Emotionally FocusedTherapy.
And the main focus ofEmotionally Focused Therapy is
that you want to buildattachments, you want to be able
to build a positive connectionbetween the two.

(15:46):
So very often what will happenin the run of the milk cup and
I'm sure you've seen this inyour work as well very often
what will happen is you'll haveone star off with one.
Okay, here let's get a greatexample here.
Somebody's wife asked them totake the garbage out.
I apologize for using verystereotypical examples, but they
work.
Somebody's wife asked them totake the garbage out.

(16:08):
Now she doesn't say it with anyone particular like an
alternation or anger or anythinglike that, but for whatever
reason he takes that to mean canyou take the garbage out?
You never take the garbage out.
You're always leaving thegarbage there.
I don't know, maybe she's askedthem a few times before.
So what he'll do is maybe he'lltake the garbage out, but he'll

(16:31):
kind of like stonewall her.
He'll emotionally shut down,he'll withdraw.
Now she senses that he'swithdrawing.
He's pulling himself out of therelationship emotionally,
whatever that ends up lookinglike, and that threatens her,
because she loves him, she caresfor him, she wants that
connection and the only way thatshe knows to try to get that
connection back on a verysubconscious level, the only way

(16:54):
she knows to get thatconnection back is to actively
pursue that connection.
So she's actively pursuing,while he's trying to actively
withdraw.
The more she pursues, the morehe withdraws, the more he
withdraws, the more she pursues,and so on and so forth.
There's just an activedistancing between the two of
them because they've createdthat cycle which leads to both

(17:15):
of them being in a place wherethey can't repair.
So what emotionally focusedtherapy is able to do is it's
able to zoom in on one person'sparticipation, understand
exactly what that participationwhether it's the pursuer or the
withdraw, what it actually meansto them, how it's helping them,
and to get them to that, to anemotional state where they're

(17:38):
experiencing all of thosefeelings.
They're speaking not of thecontent, of what's putting them
into those feelings, but of theprocess.
When you ask me to take out thegarbage, I feel like you're
saying I don't do A, b and C andthen the other part of the
other spouse has the opportunityin session to meet them at that

(18:00):
emotional point and give themwhatever attachment means they
needed at that point.
So, whether it looks like, Icertainly don't mean to reject
you or your contributions to theway the House runs and I
appreciate it and obviously alldone in the state of honesty and
authenticity.
But when you have that oneperson who gets that emotional

(18:22):
state and the other person isable to meet them there and give
them whatever they need to feelsupported, so that creates
attachment, that creates apositive attachment and they're
able to kind of it's not just amatter of role playing in the
session, they're able toactually take that out of the
session and build on thatthemselves.
That's like obviously very muchsimplified, but that's the

(18:45):
basic idea of how EFT works.
There's a lot of skill-basedstuff also.
I know that OMAGO does a lot ofscripted things.
But just understanding howcommunication works,
understanding what you want totalk about, understanding how to
have an argument, these arethings that I think many young
people don't, many old peoplealso honestly don't really think

(19:08):
about.
No, there's like a technique toit.

Speaker 2 (19:10):
There's like a technique of how to argue, of
how to fight, and peoplesometimes For me personally,
between the 12 years of doingdivorce law and then spending
now almost five years doingcouples relationship coaching
and therapy, I've definitelybeen going through sort of this
ongoing common pattern list ofwhat are the top triggers that

(19:35):
put relationships into thestress, chaos and even drive
them towards divorce.
But I'll be very curious tohear from your work have you
come to see a typical sort ofcommon occurrences, frequently
repeated events, and if you hadto sort of boil it down, maybe
today, to what would you say arethe top three reasons that

(19:55):
relationships experiencehardship, distress and
ultimately head into eithertherapy office or divorce
lawyer's?

Speaker 1 (20:03):
office.
So I think that there are threemajor ones and I'm sure if
people google it you could finda bunch of different lists which
are like top five, top 10,whatever.
I think the top three that arepretty much consistent across
the board are money, intimacyand parenting.
Those are, I think, the threethat are kind of like the top

(20:25):
three that are pretty muchalways grounds for triggers.
If anything, I would say it'seven the money and the parenting
maybe not as much.
I think that in the OrthodoxJewish world there's a tendency
to be okay asking for guidanceon certain things Financing and

(20:46):
parenting.
I think people are more willingto ask for guidance, whereas in
a realm of intimacy I thinkpeople are decidedly less likely
to ask for guidance.
So I would say that of thosethree, intimacy is potentially
one of the top stressors in arelationship and it's kind of
like you look at the intimacyfactor very often that's kind of

(21:06):
a litmus test for where therest of the relationship is or
is heading.

Speaker 2 (21:10):
Can you share a bit more about what is your actual
sort of roadmap structure whenyou do go ahead and you begin
working with a specific coupleMeaning?
Is there something that youpresent to them with that you
start within the first sessionand then what winds up happening
in subsequent session two,session three Is there a typical

(21:31):
approach you like to take whenyou work with couples?

Speaker 1 (21:34):
So yeah, so the way I do it, this is part of the EFT
modality.
I think there are a coupleother couples modalities that do
it the same way or similarly.
The way it works is the firstsession is together, the couple
together, just get an idea ofwhat they're willing to
accomplish, what you just get abasic idea of who they are.
The second and the thirdsession on each one of them
individually.

(21:54):
And the point of this is thereare a few points to this.
One is just to get a personalhistory and there's no reason
that the husband should have tosit through his wife's personal
history.
He's not for my purposes.
I think he should know it, butnot necessary.
The other one is to screen foreither active addiction or abuse
.
Those are both counterindicators to doing couples work

(22:15):
.

Speaker 2 (22:16):
I'm sorry to cut you up, but since not all listeners
will be familiar with some ofthis terminology, you just
clarify for those listeners whoare not familiar with the term.
What is counter indication?
What does it mean whensomething's taking place in
therapy that might be counterindication to the therapeutic
process?

Speaker 1 (22:33):
Okay.
So a counter indication meansthat you shouldn't do it.
Basically, when we say thatthere's a counter indicator for
that kind of work, it's likethat.
These are warning signs that itmay not be either productive or
safe on an emotional level todo this kind of work.
And the reason?
I'll take those two that Imentioned the abuse and

(22:55):
addiction.
There are similarities to it.
So let's say you have activeaddiction as a presence in a
relationship.
So you have, let's say, thewife is a heavy drinker, let's
say, and to the point whereshe's really addicted and
something which is impacting herfunctioning, and it's not, and
that's just what she is.
She's stuck there and we feelbad for her.

(23:17):
It's tragic that a person couldbe stuck in there and there's a
lot of work to do to kind of beable to help her to dig out if
that's the kind of work shewants to do but at the same time
to be able to function as partof a couple.
That's not where somebody who'sin active addiction, it's not
where their focus is and itcan't.
That kind of work is not, it'snot able to be done when a

(23:38):
person is in that kind of.
When a person is in that kindof state.
There's also the idea thatsomebody who's in, and there are
a few different ideas.
There's also the idea thatsomebody who's in active
addiction is so much stuck inthat addictive process that they
may use the couple's counselingto support their addiction in
some way, like to manipulate andto convince them to, to cajole

(23:59):
and to try to get people alongtheir way of thinking.
In a similar sense almostthere's the, the, the abusive
relationship also.
You can't really do coupleswork.

Speaker 2 (24:10):
Could you share with us a bit more and help all those
who don't understand?
Why is it that abuse in arelationship could also be
counter indicative and get inthe way of being able to the
therapy?
I mean one would think that ifyou have two willing
participants, they should beable to work at it.

Speaker 1 (24:25):
So for a couple of reasons.
One reason is that when youhave, we can talk a little bit
about just like what the, the,the profile of an abuser usually
is.
But, generally speaking,somebody who is abusive to his
or her spouse is comes it knowshow to come across as very
polished, knows how to comeacross as very clean, very
straightforward, very kind andgenerous potentially and there's

(24:47):
a huge danger of presentingthat way in session and getting
the therapist to align with theabuser.
Now, what that does is, firstof all, you're not going to do
any real good work if atherapist is aligned with some
of you who's abusing his spouse.
Secondly, what it does to thevictim.
Now, the victim has this mindsetof like this is here's the
authority, here's theprofessional.
The professional is also saying, oh, that's the professional is

(25:08):
also saying it's my fault.
The professional is also saying, if you just do this, it'll
change things and it won't,because the, the dynamic of
abuse is such that again, it'snot, it's not the victim.
So, yeah, so that's what.
One of the dangers of doingtherapy is that the therapist is
going to end up aligning withthe abuser, which does terrible
things to the victim.

Speaker 2 (25:26):
I'm just curious do you find just as a matter of
good practice, do you want toask at the first session both
spouses and even presence ofeach other, or privately if
there is abuse?

Speaker 1 (25:36):
in the relationship.
So it's a good question.
It's a very good question.
I think it happens less oftenthan it used to Think about it
like this you're in your firstsession and say you're the
therapist.
You're in your first sessionwith a couple and you don't know
this, but one of them is anabuser and one of them is a
victim.
And you're asking them aboutwhat they're coming into.
Fix, let's say they're comingin.
They say like, oh well, we'realways arguing or she never

(26:00):
wants to.
Whatever it is, he hascomplaints against her.
And if she let's say she's thevictim, she's the one who's
being abused, she's not going tojust come out and say it,
because if she comes out andsays it in session, what's going
to happen when they get home?
So she's not going to come outand say it in session.
Abusers in general are able tohide it very well.
They're very polished, they'revery careful, they're very
judicious about how they presenttheir control.

(26:21):
So it's very possible that justthrough an initial intake with
both of them, it's not going tocome across as blatantly abusive
.
You may see a very unhealthyrelationship, but you're not
necessarily going to see thatkind of abuse.
That's actually there.

Speaker 2 (26:32):
So what kind of indicators, signs, are you
looking for as you're sittingthere with them?
What is it you're trying toobserve, perceive that might
indicate to you that there maybe something going on here and,
in fact, even possiblyapproaching abuse?

Speaker 1 (26:46):
So one of the things that you're looking for is,
first of all, you're looking forjust the tone of their
interactions.
Sometimes you'll have a couplethat they can be fighting like
cats and dogs, but you can sensethat there's like an overall
air of respect and like theyreally do love each other.
They just can't stand eachother.
It's like you'll get that kindof.
Sometimes you'll get like acontrolling issue, like you'll
ask one of the questions thatlook very nervously at the other

(27:07):
one for answering.
The answer itself might not besomething which is like flag
worthy, but the fact that oneperson has to check the other
one before answering issomething to take note of over
time.
Sometimes seeing this kind ofrelationship and this is the way
we screen for abuse when we'redealing with an individual
session is like gearing yourquestions towards the nature of
the relationship, how they feelabout their relationship, and if

(27:29):
you're getting a feel thatthere is some sort of dynamic of
power and control going onthere, asking specific questions
.
Does he ever allow you to dothis and this?
Does he ever try to control it?
Control it with us in this way,but asking questions that are
kind of like dancing around thatissue.
Is there ever physical violence?
Has there ever been forcedsexual activity?
Has there ever been financialcontrol, Like asking, like just

(27:52):
within the context of differentbehaviors?
I think John Gottman actuallyhas a screening tool that he
uses, which has specificquestions to flesh out your
concept of fact.

Speaker 2 (28:00):
Can you share if you have any information you can
offer us about, if there's anyresearch studies about where
abusive behaviors, patterns,personalities come from?
Is there any links to childhoodor any other correlations worth
mentioning?

Speaker 1 (28:15):
So some of it definitely does come across as
having been abused or havingwitnessed certain things as a
child.
In fact, terry Reel, atherapist, he's written certain
some really good books.
He has a book.
You actually probably like thisbook.
It's called the New Rules ofMarriage by Terry Reel.
So he actually has another bookabout male depression and it's
called I Don't Want to TalkAbout it which is a fascinating
look on how men experiencedepression, and he actually says

(28:38):
that some abusive tendencies inhis experience are the product
of internalized depression, thatthey don't want to kind of like
feel the depression that theyhave but they'll kind of like
project it outwards and thatprojection outwards sometimes
comes out as abusive behaviors.
So that's like one aspect of itand like what I mentioned
before, having this attitude ofI deserve to act like this, I

(29:00):
have a right act like this.
That's coming from anotherperson who's been working with
abusive men for decades.
He's worked with thousands ofabusive men and he said that
that's really the theme thatcomes across.
Somehow they come up with thismindset of I deserve to act like
this, I have a right to actlike this, and it's almost.
Sometimes it's a responsibility.
This research is named LundyBancroft and that's the theme

(29:21):
that he's noticed.
So whether that comes up asbeing raised in a specific
culture, I guess you could callit like ultimate extreme
anti-feminine, feminist kind ofkind of an attitude, whether
it's having grown up in anabusive household, whether it's
a matter of just not havingpicked up, for whatever reason,
on balances in healthyrelationships.

(29:41):
That's, that's how it comes out.

Speaker 2 (29:43):
Is there any talk or initiatives being taken to
educate the younger generation?
Right?
I mean, we are spending a lotof time discussing once people
are already in committedrelationships.
What about starting early?
What about informing our highschool students, post high
school, and just prepare themmentally, emotionally and just
go for more education so thatyoung adults could be more

(30:07):
prepared going into probably themost sophisticated relationship
their lives, which is amarriage?

Speaker 1 (30:12):
So it is something that we've been working on and
one of the major programs thatthe Education Department does.
Like, as we go into highschools and we talk to high
school students, both on theboys side of the michita, the
girls side of the michita, andwe talk about healthy
relationships.
We talk about what they looklike, we talk about being aware
of the red flags, of what aregoing on in a healthy
relationship or an abusiverelationship might look like.

(30:32):
We talk about the idea, andthis, I think, is something that
is so important and it's kindof hard to say how terribly it's
impacted, I think, by culturein general.
But the idea of trusting yourfeelings in the moment, like
whether you want to look at itas part of Jewish culture as it
exists right now, whether wewant to look at it as part of
existing within American cultureas it is right now, there's

(30:53):
such a big focus on,unfortunately, just going
through the motions, on doingwhat you assume you need to do
in order to achieve that degreeof quote unquote success.
That kind of thinking manifestsin eating disorders.
People who like assume the bodyimage that people have to
conform to it manifests insocial anxieties.
It manifests in a whole bunchof different things, and it also

(31:15):
manifests in how peoplenavigate relationship choices.
It's like we're built with thesefeelings in us, right?
You look at the neurology of it.
People's emotional reactionsregister much faster than their
intellectual reactions.
So if I'm getting a feeling,I'm getting a feeling that I'm
nervous about something.
I may not be able to put afinger on it, but that signal is
there and it's worth looking at, it's worth figuring out why I

(31:35):
feel like that.
Unfortunately, many times peoplefeel pressure to get married,
go on another date, stick it out, power through, and that's with
both young men and young womenwho are going through that
process of trying to formrelationships.
You know whether it's a matterof what they're going to be seen
as within their pure circle IfI split up with this person, or
what their family is going tosay or what their community is

(31:57):
going to say.
So we're under a lot ofpressure to not listen to those
feelings, and that's really oneof the things that we tell
people.
No, listen to the feelings.
You're built this way for areason.
You're built to have thesefeelings and it's not there for
no good reason.

Speaker 2 (32:09):
You know, one of the challenges I'm finding that
people are facing is there's somuch information out there In
fact you almost want to sayinformation overload and how are
young people supposed tonavigate and figure out who
would be the appropriate personto speak with, who is the person
with the appropriate knowledge,information that would be
helpful to them and theirjourney?

Speaker 1 (32:30):
So that's the next step that we talk about.
What we talk about after.
We talk about the idea ofacknowledging your feelings and
trusting them and honoring thosefeelings.
We talk about figuring out whoyou can talk to about it.
One exercise that we do is weask people to write down for
themselves three people in theirlives who they trust to have
their best interests in life.
Sometimes and fortunatelysometimes people have parents

(32:50):
who are able to do that.
Sometimes people don't havethem.
Sometimes they'll turn to ateacher or a revenue or an older
sibling or a rug or just aneighbor.
People will be able to get somesort of an advice, get some
sort of guidance when they'retalking to somebody who they
feel could really going to havetheir back and doesn't have
their own agenda.

Speaker 2 (33:08):
In some ways, all roads lead to this foundational
question that we need to sort offace directly, head on and
really explore properly, andthat is what is Shalom bias.
What does it mean to have apeace in the home, harmony in
the home, what does it?
Look like.
How do we create it?
How do we work?

Speaker 1 (33:25):
on it.

Speaker 2 (33:25):
You share more about what your approach is to this
topic?
How do you teach it and give itover to couples?

Speaker 1 (33:31):
So I guess let's start with how the
conceptualized, healthy Shalombias.
So in the beginning of yourhistory as Shomah, there's this.
There's one of the far shalomon the sitter, akhris.
Akhris the Shalom.
He asks on the first Gralchimduring his Priyashma, the word
say Osay Shalom, o'garay Asakval.
Right, he made Shalom andcreated everything.
So the question is, why didHashem have to create the

(33:53):
concept of Shalom?
Why did you have to createpeace and then make everything?
Just make everything done.
Snappering is done.
So the answer that the Akhristhe Shalom gives, I think, is
very telling, really defineswhat the concept of Shalom
actually is.
Shalom talks about the ideathat Hashem created the four
basic elements earth, wind,water, fire and he used those
four elements to create theentire universe.
Right?
So you look at those elements,they don't all coexist together.

(34:15):
You can't have water and firecoexisting.
What it means that Hashemcreated the concept of Shalom
and then created everything wasthat in order to be able to use
those four elements together, hehad to create the concept of
being able to have two oppositeparts, two aspects of reality
that could not by nature coexist.
And creating the concept ofShalom means that now they can
coexist.
So now, so that's very nice forlike thinking about elements

(34:37):
and we'll take that into.
Like Makas, barad and the Makasand everything that.
There you go, it's great Shalom.
But you want to put that intowhat it means to have Shalom
bias.
What does it actually mean tohave Shalom bias?
It means you have twocompletely separate individuals
who, quite honestly, by natureshould not necessarily be able
to coexist and work together.
And with that concept of Shalom, by using Shalom, they're able

(34:57):
to come together.
So what I take out of this isthat it's not a matter of
canceling yourself out in orderto fit with the greater hold,
and certainly there has to besome degree of compromise, but
always being mindful of what youactually need in a relationship
.
The concept of Shalom biasdoesn't mean having a quiet
house.
It means being able to take theindividual parts that exist as

(35:19):
independent parts and buildsomething greater out of them.
So that's the concept of Shalombias and if you look at what
marriage is through that lens, Ithink it really gets a massive
take on what a marriage canreally be.
You're taking all yourstrengths, you're taking all
your abilities, you're takingall your talents and all your
strengths and weaknesses,everything and you're using your
entire self, along with theentire self, that you have a

(35:39):
person to build, something muchbigger than yourself.
And there's this idea thatsometimes that's going to
necessitate having certainuncomfortable conversations,
which I think that that'ssomething actually that the From
Community I think could usesome work on the idea of making
people feel more okay withhaving uncomfortable
conversations.
Community really could maybe geta little bit better at it,
encouraging young people to getused to having uncomfortable

(36:01):
conversations.
There's a reason they're calleduncomfortable and whether it's a
matter of asking a Revi tobreak up with a Chagrasa for you
or convincing your teacher toswitch your work assignment was,
I don't like working with thatparticular girl, but there are
so many growing up and this islike way before we've been
thinking about marriage butgrowing up there's so many
opportunities to acclimateourselves to having

(36:24):
uncomfortable conversations andbecoming skilled at having
uncomfortable conversations,becoming skilled at navigating
conflict, that we're kind ofdoing a disservice to our kids
if we don't help guide themthrough that.
The thing I like to say aboutconflict is that conflict is a
given in marriage.
It's like I think JohnGottman's research shows I think
like 69 or 70% of conflictswill never actually be resolved.
It's like over the court.

(36:44):
And this is with the successfulcouples.
He said he's done like decadesof research in successful
couples who have a great,amazing relationship.
They will have the samearguments that they have when
they're 20.
They're going to be having withour own same argument.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
I can definitely attest to that.
The experience I have in mywork has also shown very much
that successful relationshipsare not just couples who can
resolve every single issue, butthey're able to sit down and
navigate around challenges, finda way to make peace with the
fact that there's vows orthere's significant others
different from them, and theyjust want to celebrate those

(37:16):
differences and enjoy each otherand know where to be sensitive
and how to carefully navigatetowards each other.
Yes, exactly.

Speaker 1 (37:22):
They've learned to navigate the conflict in a way
which doesn't push each otherapart and actually brings them
closer together.
So let's say, go back togarbage taking out husband that
we mentioned before.
Let's say that this is anongoing thing he does not take
out the garbage and his wifereminds him.
So there are a couple of waysyou could navigate that.
You can navigate it by gettingall upset and annoyed.
You could also navigate it bylike making a mutual joke out of

(37:44):
it.
So you use that conflict, youuse that point of conflict to
create a situation in whichyou're drawing each other closer
as opposed to pushing eachother apart.
And obviously taking out thegarbage is kind of a low key
example.
But I think even with thehigher level conflicts that
maybe are ongoing, there's a wayto use the conflict.
If you treat your spouse withrespect and openness and I

(38:06):
completely disagree with youropinion, but I respect your
right to have it and I'm goingto fight for your right to have
an opinion that is completelyopposite mine that's, using
conflict to draw you closertogether.

Speaker 2 (38:18):
Now it takes I find that one of the challenges that
therapy presents and why somepeople do have reservations and
even questions abouteffectiveness.
Because people wonder, right,we sat there in those sessions
and then we felt sometimes Iwent home empty handed and the
question is what is it that youfeel separates, you know,
effective intervention versusnot effective?
What kind of tools, experiencesneed to be in place in order

(38:42):
for it to be effective?

Speaker 1 (38:43):
So a big part of it is just having kind of also a
script or a process or knowingwhat needs to be done.
This is actually this is aquestion that comes up a lot in
therapy.
I'm like, okay, fine, I learnedthe skills, but now how do I
actually do that?
So part of it is actuallyhaving a script together, having
an agreement of okay, this iswhat our process is going to be
like for arguing.

(39:03):
So, let's say, day one you comehome from the session and you
have that script in place andyou both know that this is the
process by right of actuallygoing with that script and using
that script.
When a conflict comes up, you'realready showing respect to the
other person because you'resaying, hey, I don't want to get
stuck in that same rut thatwe've been in in the past and it
over time you're going to losethe need to kind of have a

(39:27):
script.
You'll kind of own thosebehavioral patterns more to make
it yours.
You'll kind of like you'll bemore comfortable ad-living if
you want to use it, but itbecomes yours and becomes
something that it's not just amatter of like.
I must be respectful to youropinion.
Therefore I will say business.
There's a real internalizedfeeling of like okay, I see that
this works for and there'sreciprocation also.

(39:47):
It's not just a one-way street,it's that I'm trusting your
opinion and you're alsorespecting mine.
I'll tell you there was a greatone See if I can find it here
really quickly which I thinkconceptualizes what a safe
relationship actually looks like.
Just give me a second, I cansee if I can try to find it here
.

Speaker 2 (40:03):
Here we go.

Speaker 1 (40:03):
So I'm going to read off this quote to you.
This is actually one of mine.
I'm kind of proud of it.
I will put into therelationship to the best of my
abilities, in a way that helpsyou feel safe, secure, cherished
and loved.
I'll do this in a way whichdoes not compromise my ability
to feel the same way.
So you think about that, andthat's really, I think, a
snapshot of what each member ofcouple has to have in mind when
they're approaching this kind ofwork.

(40:23):
It's that I want to feel safeand I want you to feel safe, and
I'm going to do my utmost tomake sure that you feel safe and
loved and cared for, and I alsoneed to do that with the
assurance that you're going todo the same.
So you have that commitmentthat goes a long way towards
securing the relationship andclearing the ground to be able
to do that kind of work.

Speaker 2 (40:40):
Do you find that people come in with different
motivation levels, agendas, justthings that are driving their
behavior and drives themultimately into our offices?
You took more about what.
What do you think is going onthat motivates people to even
seek out help in this area oflife?

Speaker 1 (40:57):
So yeah, yeah, do do that.
I mean, like very often, peoplewill come into counseling
because there's some kind oflike an event that happens, like
they realize that okay, that Ican't continue though, and like
this week and not this, and sothere's already kind of that
motivation and they'reexperiencing, hopefully in in
this session, what it feels liketo be able to share in a place
which is non judgmental and nonthreatening, and that they're

(41:20):
able to kind of get theirfeelings out and they're able to
come to a point where they'reable to experience some kind of
respect for each other in thesession and by being able to do
that, they're hopefully able tobring that out of the session as
well.

Speaker 2 (41:32):
So out of curiosity, it kind of comes up, maybe as a
side point.
I'm very curious to hear whatdo you find these young kids
high school kids, post highschool when you do these
workshops and informativesessions with them?
What kind of things did theyshare in terms of what they've
learned growing up in theirhomes and how that perhaps
shaped their views on marriage,relationship, etc?

Speaker 1 (41:53):
I like that last part .
It's a lot of fun.
So I'll tell you like this I amjust to give a broader
framework here.
Very often when we have we havekids who go through our
workshops they'll tell us aboutthe things that they've seen at
home and they'll tell us howthey feel about what they've
seen at home and how hopeless itmakes them feel that this is
what I've seen.
And we give out theseevaluations at the end of our
workshops and very often we'llsee people writing in the same.

(42:17):
This is the first time they'veever actually had hope that I
can actually have a healthy,solid relationship, because I've
never seen one at home and Ijust thought this is what I'm
destined for.
So I think that's that.

Speaker 2 (42:27):
So these young kids, young adults who they had to do
any of your workshops, do youfind they usually fall into a
specific sort of generalizedcategory or do you find that
they're different types?
What are you have you beenobserving in terms of the types
of backgrounds that kids arecoming?

Speaker 1 (42:47):
in.
It's a huge range.
Well, we definitely we havesome, some kids who are coming
from homes that are not yourstereotypical two parents home
and maybe that's somethingthat's impacted them.
And we definitely have a lot ofkids going through our
workshops who, for allappearance, it seems to have a
very functional, very nice homeand a very nice family, and they
might.
And there are certain thingsthat maybe these kids look at in

(43:07):
their parents' relationshipthat maybe their parents aren't
even aware of and say, oh, Idon't really like that
particular aspect and I don'treally see a way to change it.
So I would say like this aschildren, we are always like as
humans, forget about us children.
As humans, we're constantlylearning, we're soaking up
experiences from our environment, whether we're conscious of it

(43:29):
or not, and as kids, we're doingthat even more so.
As children, the model that wefollow for socialization and for
relationships is based verymuch on the relationship we have
with our parents and therelationships that we're seeing
between parents.
So it's not like a it's notlike a foregone conclusion that
if two parents do not get alongand fight constantly, that their

(43:52):
kids are going to be a mess.
It's not a foregone conclusionat all because they're.
As kids get older, there aregoing to be other influences on
their behavior and attitudes andideas about how relationships
work.
That being said, parents arethe first teachers.
So if parents do not get alongwell or forget about not getting
along well, if they don't havean environment of respect for

(44:15):
each other, then that's going tocome across and it's going to
be.
It's going to createdifficulties for their children
later on, potentially.
So I would say that you know, Ithink your Rebbe's advice not
that he needs my house, but hisadvice is spot on yes, take care
of your spouse.
Part of taking care of yourspouse is taking care of the

(44:37):
family.
Part of taking care of thefamily is being able to form a
relationship with children.
So I wouldn't say that it's alltaking care of your spouse.
I would say that you definitelyhave to make an effort to form
a healthy relationship with yourchildren.
It's just part of theiremotional development.
This could sound very clinical,but part of the way we develop
emotionally is by kind of tryingthings out with our parents.

(45:00):
So if a parent is all in onshowing his spouse respect and
showing and having maritalharmony which is amazing and
beautiful for the world to seeand they ignore their kids, then
what they're doing is it'sdamaging for their children's
emotional development and it'ssomething that's going to end up

(45:20):
playing forward, because themodel that the children are
learning is respect your spousebut ignore your kids.
So it's something that kind ofhas to be like across the board.

Speaker 2 (45:29):
Do you know if there are any risk factors or
indicators or correlations ofwhat a child might have been
exposed to that would play asignificant role in their
potential divorce once they arepursuing a relationship as
adults?

Speaker 1 (45:47):
If I remember correctly, there is research
that shows that it is one of therisk factors.
Having been exposed to abuse asa child, it is one of the risk
factors for both being an abuserand being a victim.
Obviously, there are a lot ofdifferent aspects that are going
to come into play that mayimpact how things go, but it is
one of the risk factors.

Speaker 2 (46:06):
Do you feel like there is an appropriate moment
or a bit too late moment interms of when intervention
should take place?

Speaker 1 (46:14):
So I personally have the opinion that starting these
kinds of interventions whetherit's education or saying, are
you going to therapy, anythinglike that If you're starting
when the guys started, when theyoung people are starting to
date, that's already.
I'm not saying it's too late,but it's late.
On the one hand, we want to besensitive to people who take

(46:37):
that back.
We want to be able to make surethat as many people as possible
get into safe and healthyrelationships.
Now, that may mean looking atsomebody's background.
That may mean having a serioustalk about mental health.
That may mean and this is notjust in terms of abuse, I think
this is just in general peoplehave to be open.

(46:58):
People should be open to thesekinds of discussions, even
though it is again, it's anuncomfortable conversation
potentially, but these arethings that people need to be
aware of and people have aresponsibility to be open about
these things to an extent.
If a person is going out andthey know that and Ashatlan

(47:20):
knows that one side or the otherhas had a very difficult family
situation, I don't think it'san unfair question to say I know
that your family has had adifficult time.
I'm wondering what you're doingto make sure that you're okay.
I don't think that's an.
You know.
It obviously has to be phrasedwith tact and has to be phrased
carefully and we don't want togive anyone's information away

(47:44):
without there being a reason forit.
But there will come a pointwhere it's something that should
be discussed and should be opento, which I think kind of
speaks to a larger issue whichalso fortunately, is improving,
I think, over the past 10, 20years.
But the idea of destigmatizingmental health struggles, you

(48:04):
know.
Again, I think the more we talkabout these things, the more
it's part of the communityconversation, the more likely it
is that people will be able toactually, first of all, get the
help they need and, secondly,talk about it so others can help
they get the help they need.

Speaker 2 (48:18):
Do you think we could also make the case for the fact
that it's not only the lack ofeducation and just informing
young people about relationshipswhat committed relationship
will demand of them, but also,just in general, just how to
train social and emotionalskills, how they're developed
and help people understand howto use them?

Speaker 1 (48:37):
I agree 100% and I think that that's also part of a
bigger discussion about how wedo social emotional learning in.
You know, whether at schools,at home, I know like over the
past few years I think socialemotional learning has become
more of a buzzword, even inYeshivas.
But part of what needs to bedone, I think that part of this
is something that parents needto be more mindful of.

(48:58):
Part of it is integrating thesethings into the way we teach
and the way we learn in schools.
Let's say you have a second orthird grader who is learning
about healthy assertiveness,right.
So that's second or thirdgraders now experimenting with
like oh, I don't really likesomething that my friend did, so
I'm going to say something tohim, I'm going to assert a
boundary, I'm going to talkabout what I'm comfortable with

(49:20):
and what I'm not.
So that's second and thirdgrader who's successful in being
able to do.
That sets a precedent for, in20 years, when they're married,
talking respectfully with aspouse about what they're okay
with and what they're not, andthat sets a precedent.
And let's say, god forbid,somebody is in a situation in
which their spouse or personthey're dating raises serious

(49:42):
red flags.
The person who learned to beassertive and healthy is going
to have a much higher degree ofself-awareness than they might
have had they not learned to dothat in second grade.
And if they have that healthydegree of self-awareness,
they'll first of all be morewilling to bring it up directly
to the person.
Which is pretty much like whenyou have a concern about
somebody else's behavior and youknow obviously we're not

(50:05):
looking at somebody who has likea history of being abusive
towards you, it's not suggestedto speak directly with the
person that there's a fear forsafety.
But if you have a concern aboutsomething that somebody else is
doing, the proper thing to dois to address it to that person,
because if it's between the twoof you, you are the only two
people who can really addressthe issue and you learn that

(50:25):
stuff as kids and it filtersforwards.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
Do you find that there could be like a mutually
exclusive reality where we facewhere between being able to make
choices and free will while atthe same time being able to sort
of face life as it comes at usand just say that I'm exactly
what I'm supposed to be.
And therefore, this is exactlywhat I'm supposed to endure

(50:50):
experience.
I'm supposed to be in thisrelationship, or could there
ever be a time where I couldresponsibly say I'm not supposed
to be in this relationship?
And part of the work I have todo my start list is to actually
understand better what's goingon and even potentially consider
walking away.

Speaker 1 (51:03):
So I think both can be true.
I think both can be true.
I think Revolta said there wasa fascinating one of his vaadam
that I read a long time ago.
He basically spent this wholelike a good couple of pages
describing about how everysingle individual who's created
has to keep in mind that you'replaced in this world, in this
society, in this setting, inthis environment, everything you

(51:25):
brought all sorts of like majorsources to back this up, like
just like accepting that you areunique, you are singular to
existence and you're the onlyperson who could accomplish what
you need to accomplish in theplace and time that you are.
Then you use it to prove howyou shouldn't complain about
your dorm made.
But I think the idea is likeokay, we are here for a reason,

(51:45):
we are here and this is where weare and there's a plan for us
being in a situation where thereality is such.
That being said, that doesn'tleave us of the obligation to do
what we can to try to makethings better.
I think that, to a large degree,having Rebeim, having people in
Nishivas who are responsiblefor being machanik boys towards

(52:07):
marriage and not just Rebeimeither, I think, parents as well
being able to focus on havingdiscussions with both boys and
girls really about howrelationships work and being
able to model healthyrelationships and being able to
parent in a way which modelshealthy relationship tools.
I think those are all.
They've certainly gotten better.
I mean, we can't, like open aShpachal magazine without

(52:28):
tripping over some, you know,parenting course or marriage
course.
I think that's great and peopleare definitely interested, I
think, in trying to improve therelationships that they have.
And, that being said, I thinkwe can always do better.

Speaker 2 (52:39):
There's always more that we can do, there's always
like you find that in themainstream issue of the world,
there is what's in place thathelps boys develop a sense of
attachment and you know sort oflike, as attachment theory
explains, you know, the idea ofcreating healthy bonds, healthy
connections, that then boys, asthey become men, they know how

(52:59):
to share themselves and holdspace for their wives with their
children.

Speaker 1 (53:04):
I don't know if it necessarily has to be couched in
attachment theory, even thoughI personally, I have to love
attachment theory.
I think it's great stuff.
What I will say, though, isthat there is, I think, built
into pretty much most Yeshivasthat are around these days.
There is built in concept ofthe Musser Seder, and I think,
by and large, musser Seder is nolonger what it used to be in
Europe.
When people will talk aboutlearning Musser by us and having
actual Musser groups to talkaround behavioral improvement

(53:28):
and working on me, those andthings like that, I think, if we
were able to bring back thatconcept, a Musser Vahd, an
actual group of people who wouldsit down and say like, okay,
you know what?
Yeah, we're going to learn theCLC show and we're going to know
it, but we're not just doingthis as an academic thing that I
can quote you.
The wrong child left and right.
We are going to look at costs.
We are going to look at costsand we are going to be brutally

(53:49):
honest with ourselves and witheach other about what it takes
to actually channel thatparticular class that we have,
what it takes to actually usethese different me-dos that we
have in order to make ourselvesinto better people.

Speaker 2 (54:03):
I personally find it really special and really
amazing when I see married menwho join groups, support groups
where they could exploreproperly their relationships, or
even espouses to go toworkshops or to go to therapy as
a date, just to experiencedeeper connection of the
relationship and sort of stepout of their grind of the day to

(54:25):
day life and experience trueconnection.

Speaker 1 (54:28):
I think that's beautiful, I think that's an
amazing thing and the wholething.
We should have more peopledoing things like that.
I've actually it's funny aboutlike I've long been of the
opinion that 12-step groups likeAlcoholics Anonymous Style
12-step groups could very easilybe adapted to.
Mr Seder, whether it'sinitiatives, whether it's for
Balabantam, like us.
It's such an amazing idea likeadmitting powerlessness over

(54:51):
costs, admitting powerlessnessover type up, whatever it is
that you want to admitpowerlessness over, but the idea
of actually focusing and reallybeing introspective about the
real issues that we face ashuman beings and being able to
actually do things like thatthat could be so powerful to be
a real game changer.

Speaker 2 (55:11):
Can you talk a little bit about the 12-step program
and do you see its relevanceoverlap with Torah values and
Torah Shacham?

Speaker 1 (55:19):
It's a very versatile program and like, if you look
and if you look through like theactual Mr Sfar, you'll see that
the 12 steps they really do bar.
I don't know if theyconsciously borrowed it, but
there's a lot in there that isvery much in line with Jewish
Muslim thinking.
I think Brevetorsky actuallywrote an article about how, yeah
, as in it very well might havebeen just the idea of being able

(55:42):
to come to that kind ofrealization.
It's a very powerful thing.

Speaker 2 (55:45):
So if any of our listeners are interested to
follow up by asking morequestions, we'll show that's the
best way to reach them to findyou, so I have my email address.

Speaker 1 (55:55):
That's probably actually the easiest place I can
go to is yykraus at gmailcom.
If you're interested inlearning more about Shalom Task
Force programs, the best placeto send that is info at
shalomtaskforceorg and ShalomTask Force and me actually both
on Instagram or on Facebook.
I don't orgorg, yeah, so we canfind us that way.

(56:16):
I can also give you if peoplethis is actually important that
people are struggling with intheir relationships so people
can call and or text forWhatsApp to our hotline.
We actually started the textline over the lockdown period
when people were home and formany people it just wasn't safe

(56:38):
to actually make a phone call.
We were able to work in likeactual texting WhatsApp
capabilities.
We also have a portal, so I'llgive you the number for that.
The hotline number is888-883-2323.
And we have if you text usoutside of hours I think we're
open 10 to 10, monday throughThursday and Friday.

(56:59):
We have some.
We have less hours.
We think we're up from Fridaysalso, but if you text us not
during hours, then we respondwith a text that says what the
hours are and the hotline alsohas certain hours.
It's a good service and forpeople who need somebody to
actually hear their story andgive them some sort of just a
space to speak, and maybe youcan get some clarity about how

(57:19):
to proceed.
If that's what they want to do,then it's a great service and
it's a good opportunity.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
Thank you so much for taking this time to sit down
and have this really important,profound conversation.
It was really eye-opening,intriguing and really helpful.
I'm sure it's going to helpmany listeners.

Speaker 1 (57:35):
Pleasure.

Speaker 2 (57:35):
This is so much fun.
Thank you for joining us today.
For questions, comments, topicsyou'd like to hear more about,
or to try our 24 weekrelationship challenge, email us
at relationshipreimagined atgmail.