Unearthing Love and Connection Amidst Crisis: A Jewish Perspective with Leorah Elin and Rachel Burnham

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hello and welcome to dating, marriage and divorce
conversations where we analyze,navigate and troubleshoot all
stages of your romantic life.
I'm your host, igor Meisselman,a divorce attorney turned
relationship coach.
Hello everybody, welcome backto the show, and I'm back with

(00:31):
my two wonderful guests, amatchmaker and a shot, and we
are meeting, not well,matchmakers are shot hands, it's
all good, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry, I'm not dating coach, I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
Also, you're stuck, I have to interrupt at this point
.
I'm doing so much datingcoaching.
I think you should just callboth of us shot hands and dating
coaches, like I just think it'seasier.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
I think I think so.
Shot hands and dating coachesand I'm meeting with
relationship experts, call uswhatever you want.
Just call me a bad name andI'll be fine.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
Yeah, okay, so I was supposed to meet with two people
who wear many hats in the worldof dating.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
Many shades of.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
Rachel Borheim and Leora Eland Thank you very much
for coming back on the show and,of course, we're meeting during
really challenging times rightnow in the lives of many people,
particularly Clive Sorrell, andhow deeply everyone is affected
.
I am on many mental healthWhatsApp chats and the whole day

(01:36):
is just bombarded withdiscussion about where people
could get resources for anxiety,stress, struggle with sleeping,
struggles with just being ableto be functional in day to day
life, and it's amazing how eventhe therapists are seeking these
services.
It's nobody is immune from whatis taking place right now in

(01:58):
the world and, of course, lifemust go on, and I'd like to
preface with amazing insightfrom the perfect sky.
And question was posting him.
There were families who did notwant their sons to date and
this is we're talking about1850s, 1860s, 1870s because
during the Russian Empire, theczar would conscript into army

(02:22):
everyone, including Jewish boys,and so there was a fear if you
go to the army, you might nevercome back, and so there were
people who stopped makingSheduchim for their children and
the question was posed to haveits time what is the proper
approach during these times?
And of its time, brought as aproof story of Miriam and her
father, anrom, in Egypt, andsaid absolutely, you must date

(02:43):
as a mitzvah in the Torah toRevuto of a family, and there's
a famous concept of the KhadakavShedurah, ma'an al-Lamalak.
We don't ask questions aboutwhat Hashem is doing in Shemayim
.
We were given the Torah and themitzvahs and our job was to
move forward and to havefamilies, and so we're sitting
here today to discuss thisreally fascinating topic of well
, what should I be doing?

(03:04):
I'm single.
I'm really stressed out what'sgoing on in Erzisrael.
I'm wondering what's going tohappen with my family, friends,
whether they're sort of likedirectly in the front lines or
in some other way close to theborders, wherever they may be,
and people are struggling.
People are asking thesequestions, you know, according
to where they are in theirstages of life, and so I'm

(03:24):
really excited to have thisopportunity to talk to both of
you about what should bepeople's mindsets, what should
be their approaches to goingthrough this process,
particularly in a stressfulsituation such as now.
So maybe we could just startjust very generally and maybe,
if you both want to share eitherwhat you're already hearing
from the singles you'reinteracting with or a general

(03:47):
advice you're giving in terms ofwhat is the healthy mindset,
what is the right way toapproach dating during these
very troubling times.

Speaker 3 (03:56):
I'm going to jump in if that's okay.
So, yes, this is definitelynumber one question on
everyone's mind Do I date?
How do I date?
If I do, do I keep it solemn,boring, uneventful?
I feel guilty.
I feel so guilty.
People are, you know, dying inErzisrael.
People are scared, people areunsafe.
How could I be enjoying dating?
So something that works verywell for me when I'm feeling a

(04:19):
lot of stress and anxiety overthis topic, as most of us are,
is to try to take that stressand anxiety and turn it outward
as opposed to inward, and sowhat I mean by that is that
there's a tendency to, you know,depressed, anxious, stressed
out, loss of sleep, cry.
None of those things areactually helping to move us
forward.
In the bigger picture, imagineif our army, if all of our

(04:42):
soldiers, were depressed, cryingand paralyzed in fear and pain
in their beds.
We would not be able to fight awar.
And so the videos that we seeare the soldiers dancing and
singing and being besimcha andeating together and laughing,
because they need to keep that,those spirits, up, they need to
keep the morale high, otherwisethey won't be able to fight.
And, as I read somewhere, thisisn't just a war of guns, it's a

(05:02):
war of the mind.
We are so in control of ourmind even when we're in control
of nothing else.
And so what works for me is,instead of turning that pain and
stress inwards and just feelingand absorbing that pain and
being, you know, just kind ofparalyzed in pain, to be able to
turn it outwards and say whatcan I do to help the Jewish
people, to help everyone moveforward.
And for me personally, what Ican do is to encourage people to

(05:24):
date, because we have lost somany beautiful homes in
Klyosaral, and so now our joband my job is to help rebuild as
many as we possibly can, andthat means not being paralyzed
in fear, not being, you know,caught in despair and depression
and anxiety.
That is not going to help usdate, that's not going to help

(05:44):
us keep our spirits high, thatis not going to help us get
married and that's not going tohelp us rebuild Klyosaral.
And that's really what we needto do.
We need to face our enemies bysaying you will not destroy us
and we will rebuild.
And so that is what works wellfor me.
It gives me inspiration whenI'm able to see that, with that
stress and pain and anxiety,everything that everyone's going
through.
We can really have an impact byhelping couples come together.

(06:07):
And something that I've seen is,even when couples are going
through their individual painwhile they're dating, sharing it
with another person is veryhelpful.
So I'll tell couples go out,discuss it, have conversations
about what's going on.
Don't avoid the elephant in theroom.
That is a great topic.
Share your pain and when we'revulnerable and we share our pain
, that brings people together.
So I found that in the past youknow whatever, it is less than

(06:30):
two weeks being able to justdrop the facade of who I pretend
to be or who I posture to beand get real with real issues.
People are being very open,very vulnerable.
It's creating a lot ofconnection and it's also forcing
people to realize what isreally important.
Is it really important that hewent to this issue for who wears
that hat, or he wears thatcolor shirt or, you know, I had

(06:53):
in mind that he should be sixtwo and he's only six feet right
or is it more important that wehave a deep connection?
We know our values.
Family is what's important.
Rebuilding rebuilding clausal iswhat's really important being
focused on who I am as a personand who I want to become and how
much better I can make myselfthrough these times is what's
important.
And if I share those commongoals and values, you'd be

(07:14):
surprised how much furtherdating can go than when we get
stuck on the minutiae.
You know, eric Cistrell I'm notgoing to go into this, but, as
we all know was very, verydivided before this happened and
everyone was very caught up inall of their differences.
And now, since the attack, allwe can focus on is our
similarities and what brings ustogether and the actus and the

(07:34):
love that we can share.
And I think that that actuallyis a tremendous message for
dating, because how many morerelationships can we build when
we don't get stuck on theminutiae and the insignificant
and the unimportant and we focuson the big picture of goals, of
values, of clausal, of buildinghome, family, children.
You know, seeing the good,another person.

(07:54):
I think that that is the mostimportant message, at least for
me, that I take away from thisand what I can do to contribute
and obviously we all contributein different ways, but I'm very,
very pro everyone trying to getout there and date and rebuild
as many families and clausal aswe can.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
Is it you want anything to this?

Speaker 2 (08:11):
Or I think that I think that this time is very
startling and I think that a lotof people are uncomfortable.
I know myself that from my ownpersonal experience.
You know, going day to daythrough the regular schedule of
daily activities, family yantif,shabasim, plans of going away
for Shabas, if it's somebody'sbirthday, taking them out to eat

(08:32):
, or there's just, there's a lotof, there's a lot of discomfort
that's coming into place rightnow where people are having a
confusion in their mind Am Iallowed to be happy?
Am I or should I be sad?
Or how do I balance everything?
Because we really want to bebalanced, we want to move
forward correctly, and I thinkthat there's a few answers to

(08:52):
understanding this discomfort.
Number one is everyone'suncomfortable right now.
I have a really good friend.
She's a principal and she islike dynamite.
She knows how to take children,parents, anyone.
She comes into contact with herstaff and she has a really
great saying.
She says get comfortablegetting uncomfortable.

(09:13):
Now, nobody likes discomfort.
Discomfort is, it's different,it's not smooth, wearing your
sock with the line in the wrongspot and you're like sensory
issues.
Oh my gosh.
You know, but the truth is weknow from Rebi.
Dr Avraham J Torski has a clip,a video clip, on the lobster,
and if I had the lobster.

(09:33):
As he grows, he needs to shedhis shell because it gets very
tight on him.
So what he does is he sheds hisouter shell and then hides
inside some racks until he'sstrong enough to develop a new
outer shell in his new body size, which is now greater and
larger than it once was.

(09:54):
And he said, like had he goneto a doctor, perhaps the doctor
would have prescribed him somemedication for his discomfort
and he would never be able to gothrough the process of the
development in order to becomebigger, greater and stronger.
Let's start getting comfortable, being uncomfortable.
We need to recognize thatthere's a lot of growth and a

(10:16):
lot of change.
You know, as we've beenexperiencing the past few years,
life is going to be different.
You know, moving forward withthese previous experiences that
we've had going on in this world, but it's part of a growth and
a development.
Now, that being said, we have alot of people that don't realize
that they are not alone.
I actually had somebody calledme up for a coaching session

(10:36):
last week and he just said Ijust, I'm just down, my spirits
are down, I don't feel good.
I feel like I feel like I'mdoing something wrong by dating.
But like after a whole day ofwork and then getting ready and
then driving an hour and a halfto the girl and then I see her,
it's like I'm feelinguncomfortable, like I'm not even
.
I feel wrong.
I feel like I'm supposed to bedoing this.

(10:56):
So to that I answered him twothings.
Number one you are not alone.
You are not the only persongoing through this.
So I'm happy that you'rereaching out for support and to
have a voice, so you don'tsuppress these feelings and
eventually feel like why am I sooverwhelmed?
He said why should I be?
He said but you know, mr Eland,why should I be overwhelmed?
I have my job, I have my familyright, shouldn't I be okay?

(11:20):
And I said are you okay?
And he said no, my spirits arereally.
It's really hard.
And I said and that's okay,call you so.
All our Ravens, all of us, weall love each other like our own
.
We're all one in the same.
Obviously, clearly, it's goingto be hard on you.
If you didn't have any feelingsof sadness going on, I'd be

(11:41):
very concerned that you're likegetting ready for another date.
Oh yeah, here we go Driving outthere, it's sort of like,
where's your heart?
At the same time, kashemdoesn't expect you to be in
mourning, even though they'relike our brothers and sisters,
right, and we're going throughit with them, not alone.
You have strangers showing upto Levias, you have strangers
showing up to Shibahomes andthey're like I'm not a stranger,

(12:03):
I'm your brother, I'm yoursister, right.
This is a loss for all of usand that's the power of Call you
so and it's true.
But, like you said before,there was guidelines and we need
to follow the guidelines andthe Torah the Torah, has the
guidelines.
It's a blueprint that's laidout perfectly for us.
We had many years ago inWaterbury, connecticut, for

(12:23):
those who remember, we had avery bad blackout and we lost
power and everything.
The Shivas were set up in NewYork and here and there, and we
had Bahram that were in anaccident and unfortunately, they
were on their way back toYeshiva, coming back home to the
Yeshiva grounds, and we lost toour Bahram and it was very hard

(12:44):
on the community and it wasvery hard on the families, much
more so.
As a community, we didn't knowwhat to do and the rest of the
Shiva, ravarn Kaufman, calledtogether a gathering for all the
women and he said the followingwords, which were fascinating
and actually really I hope thisis going to help everybody in
life as much as it was able tohelp us here.
Ravarn Kaufman said that hespoke about the mylas of these

(13:07):
boys and then he went on to whatare we supposed to do with all
this information?
Very hard, very overwhelming,he said.
A buck went over to him andsaid Rabbi, I have a chasna
tonight and I just, I just can'tgo.
I'm too sad, I can't go.
And he said you have anacharist to go to the chasna.
He said but how could I go if Ifeel this way?
The power of Yidd is fascinating.

(13:28):
The power of Yidd is to be ableto hold onto two seemingly
opposite feelings and emotionssimultaneously at the same time.
I'm allowed to be happy and sadat the same time.
We say Shema Kholenu.
We scream out Hashem for help.
We say Rifa Enu Hashem, we needyou to heal Right.
And then we say Maudzema naachnula Hashem, you are everything

(13:51):
you are.
This is so interesting youseemingly opposite emotions
going on simultaneously.
The messages I could give overto help people is that being
uncomfortable, feeling likesomething else is going on.
That's hitting your level ofyour happiness.
That's okay, of course.
You're human, you have feelingsand you're not alone and a

(14:13):
little, a little secret.
Hundreds of people are goingthrough this, especially in the
dating field.
That's number one and it's okay.
And you're allowed to be sadand you're allowed to say okay.
And now when I go on the date,I'm going to turn on my.
You know I'm going to get intothe mood of the focus on the
dating.

Speaker 3 (14:28):
Even you're feeling the same thing.

Speaker 2 (14:32):
It's really true, it really really is true.
But two things I do want to say.
Number one is that my son inYeshiva said the following.
We said has Yeshiva gone?
We have a son that we sent back.
He's in the Yeshiva, at a townin Amasipta and he said oh, it
feels like, feels like yellow.
So innocently we responded oh,because you're coming home in

(14:53):
four weeks.
Like not, does mom's not?
He said no, just, everyone'sreally a little more serious,
like everyone's on their bestbehavior.
It's sort of like no one's, noone's really.
They're like you know, chilledback, typical self, it's just,
you know.
So that's number one.
It's a very, very, very normal,you know normal thing.

(15:15):
And the second thing that Iwanted to say is that, having
having this understanding ofwhat's going on, we need to
understand that not only isthere a mitzvah, you know to
build homes, and not only isthere an understanding that the
Torah is the perfect blueprintfor us, with the guidelines of

(15:35):
when we're supposed to mourn andwhen we're supposed to be happy
, right, we need to know thatthere's a time and a place for
everything in this world.
So to this I say the followingfor everything that's happening
in Eritrean, for the amount ofhomes that they broke.

(15:56):
We are completely determined tobuild homes.
Go out there, go date, go,continue.
If you find your zivah, getengaged, get married and
continue to build.
Bayis naman bismcha, becausethis is the antidote to
everything going on.
The spirits are strong.

(16:16):
The spirits are great If thechay'alim and all the videos
that we're watching can bedevastated and sad and super,
super, super happy at the sametime.
I spoke to a bacher who was inthe middle of dating a girl who
I set him up with, and he had toleave because he was in the
reserves, because he was thehead of a unit not so long ago

(16:39):
and he had to leave America andhe went back to Eritreal in the
middle of dating a girl and wedon't know when they'll be able
to pick it up again.
But I want to tell you what hesaid.
He said he called me from the.
He called me from from where hewas located with his current
unit and he said we are going towin, we know we are going to

(17:00):
win.
The issue isn't if we're goingto win, we know we're going to
win and that positivity if he,if he at sahal, you know, in
places that we can't even beginto comprehend or understand what
he is, the conditions of whathe's, what he's going through.
If he could say that, we couldbe okay, we could say we must

(17:22):
have that same spirit like hehas.
I might not have that spiritinternally, but you know what?
Yes, he has that spirit.
Let's have that spirit also.

Speaker 1 (17:32):
I'm just, I'm just processing.
You said so much, so manythings that like really again
you could, you could make fun offor being the therapist in the
room.
I need to process, I constantlyneed to process Even this, this
such amazing idea of of sayingto yourself wait, what I'm
experiencing right now, that'sactually normal, just to even

(17:55):
make peace with that idea.
It's normal that I'mexperiencing this.
The challenge is is that whenwe live in times of peace, and
on top of that we live in timesof comfort, such as living in a
Western world, we're just not,you know, we're not trained,
equipped, conditioned to absorbsuch a drastic change in, you

(18:18):
know, in our externalenvironment.
There's a reason why they callthese things adjustment
disorders because we'restruggling, adjusting, and
especially to something like war.
War is a massive adjustment,it's a massive trauma and when
everything is comfortable andI'm just used to my, you know,
relatively smooth, flowing life,to all of a sudden be thinking,

(18:40):
hearing, seeing that, you know,death is just just very, very
deeply unsettling.
But I think that you're rightthat that is definitely calling,
especially for Jewish people toto live while holding both of
those, those ideas.
I was actually listening to ashare last week from my right,
Vera Gerchfeld was saying in theriver, so so long that people

(19:06):
very commonly, you know, try tooffer explanation of with what
attitude did Avram go up tobring up his son Yitzhak, you
know, and one opinion will sayhe was going to Silva right,
probably like a facilitationtype of a shot, another one that
saying no, there's no,depressed, maybe let's try, and
he says no, no, he said there'sa measure that says, while he

(19:34):
was walking, there was a teargoing down his eye and a
determination in his hand and hewas holding both feelings
because, I said, wants us toserve him.
With all of these emotions, allof these things we're
experiencing right now, and Ifind that this is what's very
much missing for people asthey're going through these

(19:54):
mindsets, the feelings you feelGod gave those for a reason.
We have this artillery of amixed emotions that is sitting
there waiting to be activated,right.
The only question is is are wegoing to be in charge and we'll
decide where these emotionsshould go, or are they going to
sort of take us captives and anold son right?

(20:19):
These waves of overwhelmingemotions and people like sharing
, you know, at least when theyshare with me, you know just
almost like out of controlexperience.
It becomes really important tobe able to sort of take the time
to pause, process the feelingsand then reframe back into one.

(20:39):
This is normal.
It's okay to be going throughthis.
A lot of people are goingthrough this.
And then two is this is not theway we're supposed to express
serve Hashem, supposed to servehim with the old emotions that
were given.
And taking the time to cry ispart of serving Hashem and
taking the time to laugh is partof serving Hashem.
One doesn't take away from theother, one doesn't minimize or

(21:03):
reduce significance of the otheris just being able to pause and
say this is the humanexperience to experience all
range of these emotions and tobe able to, with our minds, to
use the say, ho and das, to knowhow to direct which emotion at
which point.

Speaker 2 (21:18):
Right.
So it's actually fascinatingbecause, to bring this full
circle, rachel said that it'simportant that in terms of your
feelings and your voice, to letit be outwards and not inwards,
so to take that to the nextlevel.
That explains that when thereis that discomfort right from
within, we have to be able toidentify it, come to a peace

(21:41):
with it and allow it to surface.
It has to rise to the surface.
So what does that mean?
So I have an understanding fromRevleichter, from the Mashi'i
Ch'imet near Yushalayim.
Revleichter came and spoke inour community one time when
there was somebody who was verysick and it was a very scary
time and it hit the wholecommunity.
For those of you that are notfamiliar, waterbury, connecticut

(22:02):
, is a community that's about20-something years old, but
nonetheless it's still a smallcommunity where almost everybody
knows each other.
So he came and he spoke and hesaid something fascinating.
He said that a lot of timeswhen hardship strikes Bar-Hashem
, as a community, everyone comestogether take upon different

(22:23):
talkanos and different yannim todo as a unit, he said.
But what's also important is tolisten to yourself and to see
where does it talk to me, whatabout my Neshama?
What does my Neshama have to doto be attacking what it's
feeling right now.
So he said, for example, it wasvery humorous.
He said does it talk to me inmy arm?

(22:45):
Does it talk to me on my side?
Does it talk to me in my leg?
And his point was pay attentionto where with this person is
going through this hardship thatthis woman is going through
right now.
Where does it talk to you?
And for one person, a responsecould be she wants to have an
eye and type on everything.

(23:06):
Somebody else might chooseShmyr Talashon.
Somebody else might chooseTafila, someone else might
choose Amuna.
Someone else might choose to bemore careful in terms of their
Mycena Tadaka.
Someone else might choose tocall their parents more often.
Someone else might choose to dosomething very out of their
comfort as Ahasah, because theyreally want to make some sort of

(23:26):
carbon as a host for thisperson.
If we would start recognizingthat not only is it okay to have
a voice, but the intention isto have a voice.
The intention is to say whereis this talking to me?
What's going on in Eretz,israel?
How am I going to connect?
How am I going to be a personwho grew from this, who, yes,

(23:49):
right now I'm vulnerable.
Yes, right now I don't feelgood.
Yes, right now my shell hasbeen shed.
What am I going to do so that Ican come out as a person who's
developed, as a Fkhs for KraliIsrael and for everybody?
And I think that this reallyconnects strongly to dating
because, in terms of being open,being outward, being vulnerable

(24:13):
, allowing yourself to connectwith another person, I think
there's a lot to add on this and, rafa, I'd love for you to
expand on this concept.

Speaker 3 (24:21):
So, yeah, I love this .
I love this idea you'rebringing up and I want to focus
on the getting out of ourcomfort zone area and me being
just a practical brain, I alwayskind of bring things back to
you know, practical application.
That's just kind of how my mindalways works.
What can we do in dating duringthese times Because, yes, we

(24:42):
are dating as we're going outthere.
What can we do to a enhance theway we date, be more focused
and efficient in the way we dateand get outside of our comfort
zone?
I'd love to just talk about afew examples of what we can
practically do to get outside ofour comfort zone.
So I think we all have thoseswitches in our brain when we go
out and I meet somebody andlike nobody talks about it.

(25:03):
But we all have this switchwhere I go out and I see him or
her and all of a sudden like no,not my look, not my personality
, not my Ashkhafa, just not me,it's not my type, not for me,
right?
And so we politely smile on thedate and we sit there and we do
our due diligence, look at thetime, like okay, how long do I
have to sit here to call thislike an appropriate mental state
.
Okay, two hours and one minuteI'll sit there, I'll smile,

(25:26):
behave myself, right, but thenI'm out of there because you
know why, in those first fiveseconds or that first five
minute conversation, the switchwas shut off.
I am not interested, this isnot for me, and I'm done so
physically.
I'm sitting there on the date,mentally, emotionally checked
out.
What if?
What if?
In a way in which to getcomfortable with the

(25:46):
uncomfortable, we were able tosay to ourselves I'm sitting on
the state anyway, I'm sitting infront of a boss Torah, a bent
Torah.
What if I just by chancedecided to keep the switch on?
What if I just by chance I haveto sit there anyway?
Right, I'm going to be hereanyway, I got nowhere to go.
I can't just in five minutessay hi, you're not, my look got
to go, can't do that, right,that's rude.

(26:06):
So what if I pushed myself tokeep that internal switch on and
say I'm just going to be open,I'm just going to get to know
this person?
I'm just going to say is thereanything about this person that
I could really respect, that Icould be inspired by, that I can
connect to?
What if I did that?
And I'm not even telling anyonethat you have to commit to a
second date, because you'vealready switched off that switch

(26:27):
and in your mind there is nosecond date.
But what if I just allow thatswitch to stay on, to be open?
What could happen if I'msitting there anyway?
What if I?
What could happen in terms ofhow I can connect to someone?
What I, what good I can see insomeone, what could they could
see in me?
And what if they did the samething?
How much could come of thatwhen we are?

Speaker 2 (26:47):
actually what's the answer?
But how?
What if somebody really ischecked out and they don't want
to see?

Speaker 3 (26:53):
that again, we can't control someone else, what is
the answer?

Speaker 2 (26:58):
What is the answer to how the internal switch, like
you just said, what if, let'ssay, one side did keep that
internal switch on and what ifthe other side also kept that
internal switch on?
So can you speak about thebenefits of it, and is there any
chance that they can or cannotbe for each other, or what are
other benefits by them allowingthemselves to have that switch?

Speaker 3 (27:19):
on Sure.
So, first of all, you know,everyone always asks me how do I
take my relationship from, likeyou know, second or third date
to like bringing it to the nextlevel, to the next level?
We want to be bringing it tothe next level.
Nobody knows how to do that andone of the major answers to
that is connection.
When I feel like I connect tosomebody deeply, when I'm able
to make myself vulnerable, openup and share things that are

(27:39):
more personal to me, then I showyou, I'm allowing myself to be
exclusive in this conversationto you.
I'm being vulnerable in a waythat I am not with other people.
That makes another person feelspecial, wanted, wow, they want
to share this with me, and thatallows connection to build.
And when the other person doesthat for you, that really brings
the relationships to the nextlevel.
So what I'm offering here iswhat if, even if you think this

(28:03):
person is not for you, if I'mable to keep that switch on of
saying I'm going to stay open,I'm not going to shut off the
switch, I'm not going to shutoff my mind and say this is not
for me, I'm not continuing, I'mgoing to say no, like how long
do I have to sit here till I getout of here?
Because, by the way, a personcan feel that energy when you
shut off that switch.
Even though you don't verbalizeit, I can tell when you're
staring at the out the window,when you're looking at your

(28:25):
watch, when you're just kind ofwatching the pastors by, okay,
you go to the bathroom three,four times, like I get it.
You don't want to be here, okay, and so that does not lend
itself to connection or even thepossibility of seeing if there
could be connection.
But what if we started to openup and talk about, you know what
we're going through, our painof the vertus, the stress and
the anxiety, or the family, orthe soldier we know, or the

(28:47):
people we're diving for, or thethings we're working on within
ourselves, right, all thesethings are things that,
universally, everyone's goingthrough right now.
And if we can pick one areawhere we can choose to connect
on and frankly, eric Charles isa great one because it's
personal, but it's not toopersonal because we're all going
through it it's not like, oh,this one's parents got divorced
and oh, I had a sibling whopassed away and I have a special

(29:09):
needs.
You know, these are not extrapersonal.
It's kind of universallypersonal because we're all going
through it.
So if we're able to go throughit together and try to see if we
can connect on that, that couldbe like the Pesach, the opening
for further connection.
And so even if one side iskeeping that switch off, right,
I'm open, I'm going into thestate open and I can tell that
he's not open at all.

(29:30):
But I have to tell you, evenwhen that other person is not
going in open and you arekeeping your switch on, you're
like I'm going to stay open, I'mgoing to be present, I'm going
to really try to engage.
It'll take a little bit of time, but you'd be surprised.
People will come around.
It's like, okay, how long do Ihave to sit here?
And then she or he is going on.
It's like, wow, you know, thisis a genuine person.

(29:51):
They're actually putting aneffort into this conversation,
they're actually opening up,they're actually sharing and
being vulnerable, wouldn't it?
I think it would be nice if Iwould also contribute.
So you can sometimes bring thatperson in by leading by example
and showing them that I'm goingto be vulnerable first.
Okay, it's always hard, likewho's going to be the first one.

(30:11):
But if the person who'sconscious of keeping that switch
on is going to be able to bevulnerable first, you can gently
invite the other person intothe conversation just by your
openness and your warmness,right?
How often do we go on a date andlike we're in a bad mood, but
the person we're with is, like,so smiley and happy and positive
.
We feel awkward being in a badmood because they just have this
positive effect on us.

(30:31):
Right, so you can have thatpositive effect on another
person even if they're shut off,and I think that that is a
really, really great way to beable to build connection, and
especially with something likethe whole Massa Ben-Artsis role,
which is personal but not toopersonal, to try to use this as
a stepping stone tovulnerability, to connection, to
openness, to getting real.

(30:53):
There are so much good that cancome in connection from getting
into real conversations.
Right, you know the things thatI don't want to go out with
someone for, because you know hehas this job and not that job,
because I heard that he wearsthis clothing and this color,
not that color.
This ishiva, not that ishiva.
This height, this weight right,well, we can get away from the
superficial and just dive deepinto who this human being is

(31:16):
that is sitting in front of us.
There is so much greaterpotential for connection and to
be able to see what is actuallygoing on here in the
relationship.
There are so many couples who goout, you know, once or twice
they say no and then five, 10years later it comes back around
and they get married.
What happened, like whathappened that first time?
I'll tell you what happened.
Connection was always available.
Both or one switches were offin both of them and so there was

(31:40):
no even chance.
You couldn't even start.
You couldn't start theconversation of trying to get to
know this person.
Once.
They went on another time,years later, they were more
mature, they were more open.
They were saying I'm gonna getreal, I'm not gonna focus on the
superficial or that one thing Iheard about them that I didn't
like.
Then there is so much you knowpotential that could come.
So I think that that's a reallygreat place to start.

Speaker 2 (32:03):
I really like that because it also there's two
really big benefits of whenpeople are open that I love to
expand on what you said, rachel.
One is that you know I've hadpeople that have gone out.
You know, many times I tend tonot count dates.
I've oldish, took them kind ofhard that I've made and
continued to do work with.

(32:23):
I still never know how manydates they went on.
It doesn't matter to me.
I don't count dates.
Some people do, I don't.
I don't think that a fifth datemeans this and the seventh date
means then and by the following,I don't know, by the 12th date,
you should get engaged.
That's not how I roll at all.
It's much more individual based.
However, what I have found isthat by people holding in, not

(32:44):
turning their switch on untilthey get really, really, really
comfortable which is usually ata later time where they became
very familiar with the personwho they're dating, but they
were never personal they findout at a later stage that it's
not gonna work.
And when I say stage, I don'tmean that they entered from that
stage one to that stage two,from the hi nice to get to know

(33:04):
you, to better conversation andmore emotionally connected.
I'm saying that they have thetimeline of comfort, they know
what the person looks like, theyknow what they're gonna wear on
the next date, they don't havea problem communicating with
them, but they've actually nevermade that emotional bond or
connection and they haven't hadreal conversations yet and they

(33:25):
look in hindsight.
I probably could have figuredthat out a lot earlier.
I could have figured that outafter a few dates as opposed to
after many dates.
I had a girl who contacted methat she was dating this boy and
she doesn't really like him,but she doesn't know why.
And her mother was saying no,you should go out more.
You should go out more.
And she said, like, what shouldI do?
And I said, well, what bothersyou about this boy?

(33:47):
And she's like I just don'tlike him, I just don't connect
with him.
I said, okay, how do you know?
She said, no, nothing's come up.
I said, well, have you tried?
Have you tried showing him yourtrue colors, who you really are
?
Have you sat on every singledate feeling like stiff and
tight?
Or have you allowed yourself tobe comfortable within your own
skin on the date?

(34:08):
She's like well, you don't dothat too early.
I said, okay, but it's notearly anymore.
It's not the first or seconddate, right, it's not early.
So I said, well, don't you wantto find out if he is or isn't
for you?
She goes.
So what should I do?
Just go on the next date andshare with him some of my
passions and the things thatI've done and what interests me.
And I said go for it, tell himwhy you love your summer job so

(34:28):
much.
I want to share the followingwith you.
Right, and that's like turningthat switch on.
She goes and what's going tohappen?
I'm like you're going to see ifit was, if you felt good
delivering it, and you're goingto feel back whether or not it
was well received or not.
You're either going to connector not connect.
He might be like, oh, that'snice.
And you're going to be like,all right, I'm out.

(34:49):
Or he might be like, wow,that's really interesting.
So funny.
You tell me that I also had avery similar experience or had
something in my life that mademe feel very similar to you.
Can I share that with you?
And then you start seeing howyou feel around that person and
that opens up.
You know, I call it that.
That's the past hachbasuak tolike, start getting to know the

(35:10):
other person.
They do find that a lot ofpeople can.
You don't have to go on 10dates to find out what you could
have found out on a 50.

Speaker 3 (35:16):
Can I ask you that you're saying Liora?
Please do absolutely so.
Another thing that tends tohappen is and this is typically
a girl thing so a guy will goout, he's really trying to get
to know her, and girls it couldbe because of our more private,
snistic nature are not usuallyfirst to just open up, like.

(35:36):
First I got to feel it out, Igot to see if I'm comfortable.
Do I like his personality, do Ilike his look?
Do I?
I got to get comfortable in allfronts before I like open up.
And something that's veryclassic that happens very often
is the guy is like trying to gether open up, trying and trying
and trying to be patient andwaiting.
And when is this girl going toopen up?
Cause I like a lot of thingsabout her, but I feel like she's
just not letting me get to seeher and so they'll keep dating.

(35:58):
And he's being patient, patient, patient.
And at some point and everyperson has a different point the
guy's like forget it, shedoesn't want to open up.
I'm not going to force her, I'mnot going to beg her, I'm not
going to, you know, there's onlyso much.
I could chase her, you know.
And so I'll just walk away.
And as soon as he starts to pullaway, wait, wait, wait, wait,
I'm here, I'm here open up, I'mhere to open up.
And at that time most guys arelike I'm sorry, I'm out of here,

(36:20):
like I'm done, I've been sopatient, like if you didn't want
to open up till now, like Ijust I can't keep waiting
anymore, it's too much.
And a lot of some guys will sayokay, fine, okay, let's see,
let's try.
And a lot of guys will saycan't have a relationship like
this, where I'm begging, begging, begging for you to just let me
see who you are, and I'mwaiting and waiting, and waiting
and you just can't.

(36:42):
Like I can't have a future likethat, I can't have a marriage
like that.
And even if the girl wouldactually open up and be able to
just move forward, sometimesit's too late.
It's just too late and God, andthat's very sad.

Speaker 2 (36:55):
Very, very sad.
So one of the things that Irecommend to people is having an
understanding of the differencebetween private and table talk.
Personal Meaning it's notpersonal in a way that I can't
tell anyone about that, but Iwouldn't necessarily tell it to
the person next to me at the busstop, right?

(37:15):
So there's a difference betweenpersonal and private.
So personal questions orpersonal information is so smart
to share, doesn't have to be onthe first date.
Again, make sure you wannashare some personal stuff and
you don't feel like you knowit's just the person on the
other side of the table who's acomplete stranger.
Why would I share any of thatwith him?

(37:35):
But there's also this likereally nice point where you sit
there and you say some personalstuff Like, oh yeah, I one time
had a.
Yeah, when I one time had asurgery, or you know, I broke my
arm and it was crazy.
That's not so personal.
You know A private surgerymight be if somebody had back
surgery and they were depressedand couldn't move for months and

(37:59):
until they were covered.
That's not private, it's notsomething they're gonna share.
But there's a big differencebetween a personal experience
and a private experience.
You know you don't go out withsomebody and say to them on the
third date, because you'retrying to connect with them Like
, so, why do you have a brokenengagement?
No, no, no, no, no, that'sprivate.
That is not a discussion unlessyou are worthy and you are the
Zoka like to the key of my heartfor me to open and share with

(38:22):
you, and that's at a later stage.
But a personal question would be, like you know, or a personal
statement to share with somebodymight be something like you
know how a seminary and somebodymight be like you know, it's so
interesting.
It actually wasn't like what Ithought it would be and I had an
okay year.
That's personal, that private,that private.

(38:44):
What was it like when you hadbeing raised with a sibling with
special needs?
That's a little bit moreprivate.
And I think that people have ahard time identifying Rachel,
that they're allowed to shareexperiences, date fun, personal
things that are lighter or notgoing to the deepest of depths,

(39:06):
and people do have boundaryproblems with that.
So how can you identify or canyou break down the difference
between trying to connect withsomebody on a more real level,
on a more open level, on a morevulnerable level, with proper
givulim, so that they don't saysomething that scares the other
person away, which happens allthe time, or anything else of

(39:28):
this work.
So can you give some betterguidelines for breaking down?

Speaker 3 (39:31):
the difference.
I'm going to give a couple ofguidelines and then I really
want to hear from Yutthak interms of some of his.
He's had a little time toprocess and I like hearing his
responses after he's processedMore like a little more time to
get overwhelmed.
Now that he's able to put upwith Leo and I going on and on,
and he's had a time to process,we want to hear from him.

(39:54):
So I'm just going to quickly gothrough that a little bit.
And it's very important to, yes, be able to understand personal
and private, but alsounderstand that if we don't move
our conversations from justless personal to more private
and more open and deeper, wecannot move that relationship
forward.

Speaker 2 (40:13):
And so, very simple, I'm talking about before that,
because a lot of theidentification I want you to
give over is the difference fromgoing from table to a
conversation.
I went out with this niceperson they're nice, I'm not
interested, we have nothing incommon to have figure out.
If you actually do have thingsin common.

Speaker 3 (40:34):
OK, so I'm going to quickly just go through what I
call the four stages of dating,because I just think that it's a
helpful thing to know, and thena couple of ways in which to
get there.
So four stages of dating areessentially number one getting
to know you.
It's essentially justcollecting information.
Yes, you've done research onthis person, but you don't know
this person as a person.
You just know them from justdetails that you've heard on
paper.

(40:54):
So, getting to know a littlebit about them, their
personality, what they enjoy,how they participate in
conversation, their family,their job, their yeshiva,
whatever it is that they're upto, just getting to know them.
And that stage can last fordifferent amounts of dates,
depending on who you are.
Typically it's about one tofour dates, depending on who you

(41:15):
are, and that's kind of aconversation you would have with
any kind of stranger co-worker,so to speak.
Just getting to know a newperson Then.
Then we're moving into the nextstage, which is developing a
friendship.
Can I develop a friendship withthis person?
Maybe I can, maybe I seeeverything on paper is great and
I get this a lot.
He's such a great guy, but Ijust don't like him.
Something about him I justdon't like.

(41:37):
I don't like his personality, Idon't like his laugh, I don't
like his look.
I just don't like him.
So how do I move thatrelationship from the getting to
know you into friendship,becoming more open?
Maybe throwing in some jokes,maybe allowing this person into
my world where I share notprivate, but things that are a
little bit more personal?
Like you said, I broke an arm.

(41:57):
These are some things that Ienjoy doing hobbies, passions,
interests, things that I'minvolved with in my life, which
are all components of what makeyou who you are, and so can I
build this friendship, and amajor part of that is can I
enjoy this person's company,because if I got a penny for
every person who wants tocontinue dating because it looks

(42:19):
good on paper, I mean it'sunbelievable.
Papers do not get married,people get married.
I never went to a wedding whereI saw two papers getting
married.
People get married, people,people who like each other.
We have to like each other.
Life has many, many challenges,and if you're married, you know
that.
So we're not deciding if we cansolve all of life's issues

(42:41):
together, because you won't beable to.
What we are deciding is would Ilike to go through life and
life's challenges with thisperson.
Do I like this person enoughthat when things come up, I
would want to work them out withyou, as opposed to somebody
else, and personally, assomebody who had been engaged
multiple times?
This is not something that Irecommend.

(43:03):
If you try at home, do not beengaged multiple times for no
reason, just to try this out.
But since I've already done thelegwork for you, ok, a litmus
test for me when I was engagedbecause I was engaged more times
than I'd like to admit was whenhard things came up, because I
found that when I was dating,hard things didn't really come
up, because everyone's on theirbest behavior and it was really
hard to get from a person howthey would react in a hard

(43:26):
situation.
And so the litmus test for mewhen I was engaged because
whenever I was engaged I wasn'tI know this sounds horrible, my
husband will forgive me I wasn'tquite sure that I was going to
marry that person, since I'dalready broken multiple
engagements.
I was engaged and it was kindof like, let's see how this goes
.
I didn't tell that to him and Iwas certainly trying to make it
work, but I found that the onlytime I could really get real

(43:48):
with this person was duringengagement, because that's when
decisions came up, that's whenplans came up, that's when
different family backgroundchallenges came up and how can
we work through this together?
And each time I was engaged Icame up with situations that
made me realize I cannot workwith this person through life.
When life challenges are reallyintense and really real, I

(44:09):
cannot work with this person,and that led to the downfall of
a couple of relationships.
And I remember dating myhusband and challenges came up
because you come from differentfamilies.
You're spending a lot of moneyon a wedding, plans, details,
different personality traits andI remember watching and
observing myself from afar howwe were working through this

(44:30):
together and I remember sayingthis is the man.
This is the man that I can andwill be able to work through
life challenges with.
And so I think that that islike I said don't try this at
home.
But I think it's reallyimportant to focus on that,
because a lot of couples I dealwith are so busy worrying about
well, I don't know If her motherdoes this in their home and I

(44:55):
do this in my home what's goingto happen when I go to them for
Shabbos.
You're not going to be able tosolve every nitty gritty detail.
Better focus on the big picture.
Do I like this person enough towant to be able to move forward
in any life challenges?
Do I like how we work togetheras a team in order to deal with
things that come up?
So that would just be thefriendship stage, ok, so just
getting that.

Speaker 2 (45:14):
You start looking for that at level two.
Level two is the friendship,the friendship.

Speaker 3 (45:20):
Do I like this person enough that I enjoy their
company?
And the only person who cantell you that is yourself, not
your Shachan, not your datingcoach, not your mother, father,
sister, brother.
No one is going to be able totell you if you like this person
enough.
And usually the most test is doI want to see this person one
more time?
Not five times, not if I seemyself marrying them.
I don't want to hear any ofthat.

(45:40):
Would you like to see them onemore time?
Was the date good enough that Iwould want to go out one more
time?
That's the only question Iexpect people to answer.
So OK, so again.
So we've gone through theGetting to Know you stage,
building a friendship, whichagain can take between date two
till 10.
Everyone's different.
Some people move faster, somepeople move slower.
It depends on how scofficallywhat you're used to in terms of

(46:04):
those boundaries.
So I leave that open.
And then after we want to moveforward from the friendship
stage, because not everybodythat we're friends with can we
actually build a marriage with,and so that's really, really
important.
But friendship is thehealthiest foundation of a
healthy marriage, and so if wehave a good friendship in this

(46:24):
relationship.
Now let's see if we can move itto the next level, and the next
level is emotional intimacy andthe way I'm trying to.

Speaker 2 (46:30):
You just bridged the two, not Reim, but Reim
Ha-Hu-Vam.
Yes, I love the way that youjust bridged level two and level
three.

Speaker 3 (46:37):
Yes, yes, ok, and so friendship is not just something
that I would share with afriend, because we went from
sharing with getting to knowsomeone as on a coworker level
or a stranger level to buildinga friendship with somebody OK,
but someone who would move intocategory of best friend or even
more than best friend, that Iwould share something much more

(46:58):
personal and much morevulnerable with in that
emotional intimacy phase.
And the way I define that isintimacy which people only think
of, physical intimacy, andthat's not what I'm referring to
.
Emotional intimacy is exactlywhat it says Into me, I will
allow you to see Into me.
You see, if I can and createthe capacity for allowing, if I

(47:23):
can allow someone to see into me, my real heart, my real soul,
my real interests, my realpassions, my real struggles, my
real challenges, if I can allowsomeone into that, then I can
create really deep connectionand I can really move this
relationship forward.
And it's usually in the thirdphase that, if that phase goes
well for both people, bothpeople are able to be open,

(47:46):
vulnerable, share deeper partsof themselves, challenging parts
, beautiful parts, ugly parts,parts that I might not be proud
of, but I trust you enough Ifeel that you won't put me down,
you won't make fun of me, Ifeel safe with you, I feel
accepted, I don't feel judged.
Then if I feel that I can movethrough that phase with you,
typically mentally people willsay I can marry this person.

(48:07):
They might not be ready to doit, but mentally they'll say I
can see myself marrying thisperson.

Speaker 2 (48:13):
And that's what people say, like oh my gosh, I
had to come home one day fromone day to go.
I think this is it, it's likeit's your week of light bulb
moment.
We've got it.
Jeppe, you're not going toengage there, but they're not
proposing tomorrow, they're notproposing tomorrow Right.

Speaker 3 (48:26):
They're mentally saying, ok, I can go from
stranger friendship emotionalintimacy.
This is someone that allows meto feel safe with who I am.
When I show my best parts and Ishow my less than best parts, I
feel like this person canaccept me.
Then I move to the next phaseand again, this stage can take

(48:47):
between date 5 till 15, 20.
Again, it depends who you areand what your time frame comfort
is.
Then I move to the next phase,which is taking leave.
Ok, and that's an entire phase,because just because I know
mentally and emotionally that Icould actually create a good
life with this person doesn'tmean that I have the strength or

(49:08):
the ability to actually takethe leap.
Because I'm so scared, becauseI'm so worried, because I had a
broken engagement, because myparents were divorced, because I
never saw a healthy marriage,because what if they say no to
me?
All the fear or all the anxietythat comes up.
And so it's called the leapbecause it literally is a leap,
and the leap is you're not goingto know everything about this
person.
I know that doesn't soundcomfortable, since we're talking

(49:28):
about getting comfortable withthe uncomfortable.
You will not know everythingabout this person.
You will get married and youwill find out things about this
person that you didn't know, andyou're going to find out things
about this person that theydidn't know about themselves.
You know why they were nevermarried and even if they were
married, they were never marriedto you.
So the leap is I know enough tosay I have a strong foundation

(49:49):
of a healthy friendship.
I have a strong foundation of astrong emotional, intimate
connection that I feel safeenough that I want to go through
life with this person Whatevercomes my way.
I will not solve it all.
Whatever comes my way.
Are you willing to bevulnerable?
Am I willing to be vulnerable?
Are we both willing to takethis leap together?
Yes, then we can leap.
And I'll also mention that ifanybody gets stuck in any of

(50:12):
those stages meaning when I askpeople about their dating
patterns and I find that like ohyeah, typically I got one, two
dates and then they're over, oroh, I always get into a big
partial up and like it alwaysexplodes, or I've had multiple
engagements, so you can seewhere people get stuck along the
different stages If you're notable to get through each stage,

(50:33):
obviously you're not going to beable to get down the aisle.
So working through what'sgetting people stuck in each
phase is super, super important,because if people can never get
to emotional intimacy, you'restill not getting married, even
if you can have a millionpartios and a million broken
engagements, but you're soriddled with fear you're not
going to get down the aisle,even if a guy's like you and you
like them.
You got to work through what isgetting you stuck there.

(50:55):
So that is a little bit aboutthe four stages and moving
things forward.
And the way to transition fromstage to stage is typically a
conversation where it's clearthat both of us want to move to
the next level and I'd like toshare where I'm at and where I
might want to see things going.
And it's really important tohave that conversation so that

(51:16):
we can move things to the nextlevel, because what often
happens is I'm waiting for youto make the next move, you're
waiting for me to make the nextmove, and we're ping-ponging and
no one's going anywhere.
So if one side, it's alwayshelpful if it's the guy, because
the guy is kind of waiting forthe girl, and I always tell the
guy you are the guy.
So it is important for you totry to make that next move as,

(51:37):
like, the man of therelationship, if you want to be
the man of the relationship andtake that next leadership role,
but the girl is going to have tosend vibes that she is ready
for that, Whether or not it's acertain eye contact, whether or
not it's a certain openness orcomfort or a body language that
shows that she's ready for thenext phase.
That is typically aconversation that is able to

(51:59):
transition us from stage tostage.

Speaker 1 (52:01):
This is a fascinating framework.
I like it very much.
For me personally it very muchresonates and I feel like,
without hearing it from you, asI was listening to you, my
relationship, my datingrelationship and eventually
getting married, definitely wentthrough all of these stages.
I have a lot of questions and Iwanted to know if I could sort

(52:22):
of ask both of you, not as a yesor no, but if you could try to
give me a relatively shortresponses, because I really want
to ask a few technicalquestions.
I guess I'm thinking to myself.
I'm imagining if I was datingagain and people out there who
are dating, they just wanted toget a few very kind of grounded

(52:42):
I don't know if it's tacticaladvice of how to navigate a few
different situations.
So the first thing I wanted toask to both of you is and just
sort of reveal I don't know ifI'm a color bias, but I'm
definitely in the crusade ofnormalizing conversations about
emotions for men, because I findthat there's a lot of blockages

(53:05):
for all kinds of reasons orjust struggles being able to be
emotional, emoting, sharingemotions.
So one question I have for youis you know, it's one thing to
describe these four stages intime of peace, right, but the
way we started today's episodeis we're talking about now in
times of war, and things becomewacky and people are

(53:27):
dysregulated, and sometimespeople are not even aware to
what degree they're dysregulateduntil they are confronted with
a random situation.
And also, you know, the triggersets them off and emotion just
starts oozing out of them.
So I'm going to again, I'm sortof making it like light because
I know we're talking about avery heavy topic.

(53:48):
So I'll give you an example,right.
So I'm a guy I'm on dating, Icome to you to talk to you and I
tell you, you know I'm verynervous, I'm going to go on this
first date or second date andI'm nervous I might start crying
While we're sitting on the date.
Do you think I should not go onthis date now Because it's just
inappropriate or I'm misplacingmy emotions essentially on a

(54:10):
stranger, or it's a sign I'mjust not ready right now to be
on the date.
I just need to take time, youknow, to be with my feelings,
and when I'm more collected, youknow because I'm essentially
introducing stage three of yourformulation at stage one, and so
how would you advise me interms of navigating something

(54:32):
like that?

Speaker 2 (54:34):
Lira, you want to go?
You want me to take it.
You go first, I'll go after you.

Speaker 3 (54:38):
So, first of all, if we're so emotional to the extent
that we cannot functionallyshow up at work, if we can't get
ourselves out of bed, if wecannot go through our day-to-day
basic living skills as afunctional you know member of
society, yes, I do recommendthat you should not be dating
and you should be taking alittle time to collect yourself
and get back to yourself and ifthere is a mental health concern

(55:00):
or issue, you should certainlybe taking care of that first
before you're dating.
With that said, if we're goingto work, if we're going about
our functional daily living andwe find ourselves at times, you
know, crying whether or not whenwe're dovening, or whether or
not because we heard somethingtragic or we saw something that
was just triggering, I thinkthat that is universal right now

(55:21):
for everyone and I certainlywould recommend that you
continue to date.
But I would recommend that webring this up and there is a
possibility that we can actuallyfast-track connection.
You know, during COVID, a lotof Shadduchem happened, a lot,
because people realized what wasreally important.
You know, people are sick,people are dying, everything's
shut down Like what's reallyimportant Family homes,

(55:42):
connection, the future right andI'm really hoping.
I'm really, really hoping anddovening that that will happen
this time as well, where, youknow, when something really
intense and really reallyhappens obviously it's not, it's
not ideal, we don't, we don'task for that but when it happens
, you know, can we really focuson what's real and what's really
important?
And I would say, call out theelephant in the room, just call

(56:04):
it out.
Something that comes up a lotfor a lot of people is I don't
know how to say that, but how doI, how do I bring that up?
And that's so uncomfortable,and how do I, how do I say that
and do that?
I just say it.
Yes, you just say it, right.
So here's one method that I usefor uncomfortable conversations
.
Leora, would you like to havean uncomfortable, awkward
conversation?
Sure, let's do it.
Okay, this is a little bituncomfortable and a little bit

(56:26):
awkward, but I think it's reallyimportant to bring up.
You know, I'm just feeling veryemotional right now about
Archdstall and I find myselfdovening and just crying, or I
find myself seeing a video andjust not being able to compose
myself, or just spacing out atwork because I'm just so
distracted with, you know, myfamily, my friends, who's safe,
what's going to be all of that?
What is that like for you?

(56:47):
Okay, so that kind of opennesswe're like this is awkward, it's
uncomfortable.
Would you like to have aconversation of being
uncomfortable?
Let's get comfortable with theuncomfortable, would you?
Would you, would you be able todo that with me?
And so what we've done is we'veinvited another person into the
discomfort, into the awkward,and now that we've kind of
gotten that elephant out of theroom, we can actually have an

(57:07):
open conversation, and so thereis an ability to fast track the
connection.
I don't want to skip the stagesof friendship, because I do
think that that's important.
So we do need to make sure that, even if we jump into
connection and the deep painthat we're feeling and what this
brings out in us, you know, interms of what's going on today,
we still need to make sure thatthere is an opportunity for us

(57:29):
to connect as friends.
And something else that'sreally important to mention is,
even though our dates, you know,may not be as light or as happy
as they used to be, or althoughthey really can be, because
we're building homes here, right, look at the soldiers.
They're dancing and singing.
They, they, just, they know I'mIsrael Chai.
That is what's important.
So I want to make sure that wedon't just connect on a morbid

(57:51):
level and just kind of miseryloves company and you're sad and
depressed and I'm sad anddepressed.
Wow, we have so much in common.
Let's just get married.
We need to make sure that weare going back and able to
actually be friends, that we canhave fun together, we can laugh
together, we can enjoy smilingtogether.
We don't want to attractsomebody who is just in a heavy
depressed state of despair.

(58:12):
That is not going to lead usinto a healthy relationship.
So we want to make sure thatthat we do that.
But in short, I would certainlytell someone to go out and try
to focus on just bringing upwhat they're feeling as opposed
to just hiding it.

Speaker 2 (58:25):
Okay, so I'm going to answer.
Thank you, rafael.
I'm going to, I'm going toexpand a little bit, but first
thing I was going to say is thatemotional regulation is of, you
know, utmost importance and forsure it makes sense what you're
saying, that somebody shouldnot go out of their not in a
emotionally balanced state ofmind.
So, but once they are, oncethey are to answer the question

(58:49):
about, let's say, let's saysomebody's in a later stage of
dating, right, not date one, twoor three, but let's say they're
in, let's say they'retransitioning from that
friendship into that emotionalintimacy.
A lot of men feel in generalthat they can't share their
emotions, they can't share theirfeelings.
I think that we have seen moremen crying on these videos, on
these social medias, and then,what you know, the families are

(59:11):
going through that.
Seeing men crying is notsomething that is looked upon as
a as a problem.
So men out there should knowthat crying does not mean that
you're a loser.
Women don't look at you ascrying turns you into somebody
that is just, I don't know, nota man, not true?

(59:33):
So much so that actually, whenwe go through history, it's
actually fascinating.
I took a course by Dr Ronanovicyears ago as an educator in the
school.
She gave a course onanti-bullying and she said
what's very interesting is thatwhen children who are young,
when they are bullied, you couldhave, like a say, a second
grader who comes over I don'tremember if she said second

(59:56):
grader, but we could use asecond, third, fourth, fifth
grader, any of them, for anexample.
And if somebody goes over tothe girl and will hit her really
hard and throw her on theground, right, she's going to
cry Because that's thedevelopment, that's a
developmental stage of adevelopmental response that's
appropriate.
You know for what she, whatoccurred to her?

(01:00:18):
And it's a boy.
The same thing happens to him.
He goes to his teacher and hegoes, he does he that.
It's sort of like there's this,there's this undertone like man
up, deal with it, handle itright.
But if you wanted to do aneurological study, they
actually emotionally, are bothgoing to do the same exact thing
, right?
So why do we let the girl cryand we don't let the man cry?

(01:00:40):
Now you're dealing with this asadults, okay?
And the answer is is that a manwho cries doesn't mean that
he's not a man?
So I just want to reassure theman out there.
Actually, I think one of themost attractive features for
many women who are looking forhealthy men, while they're
looking for somebody that'semotionally in tuned and aware
and has social skills and is hasa popularity amongst the people

(01:01:07):
that they're close with becauseof their goodness and their
kindness and their abilities.
So I would like to add that.
The third thing I want to say is, regarding this fast track
connection we do have to becareful about it.
It is true that during COVID, alot of people were seeking a
partner, a companion.
We have a lot of people whowere able to look past what's

(01:01:27):
not important and look for themost important things.
But we also had people thatrushed into relationships.
I've definitely gotten quite anumber of phone calls of
divorces from COVID who rushedinto the relationship.
So I'd like to I'd like toseparate the differences between
COVID versus what everyone'sgoing through now with this war.

(01:01:48):
I remember years ago there was acamp that they had a funny,
cute name for it.
It was for children withspecial needs and you had, like,
a lot of counselors that wereso good, the guy counselors and
the girl counselors, andeveryone was just in this
environment of love, peace andhappiness, harmony, selflessness
, you know.
So you have a lot of stuff thathappened, which is a good thing

(01:02:09):
, as long as people took thetime to get to know each other
for real, with the right amountof time, and outside of that
environment, because thatenvironment was not going to be
their marriage, it wasn't goingto be their day-to-day living.
It was impractical.
It was very lofty, sweet andholy and very enjoyable, but
that wasn't going to be the onlythey were really going to be

(01:02:30):
living.
You know, when people go out toeat, you know on dates and this
and that, like we likesometimes I remind them so you
know you're not going out to eatevery time you have supper.
It's like he will be broke.
So it's sort of like,eventually you go from this like
baiting, from like what can wedo?
What can we do?
What can we do?
What can we do?
And eventually it doesn'tmatter what we do, we just want

(01:02:52):
to be with each other.
It doesn't matter if we'resitting in your parents' living
room with your brothers andsisters playing I don't know
code names with us, becausewe're just happy to.
It's not about spending moneyand being out there, but there
is a reality that we have tounderstand that there are
certain things that can bring ustogether and we want to utilize

(01:03:13):
that power correctly.
During COVID, one of the biggesthardships that I have
identified from brokenengagements or broken marriages
who are now seeking, you know,looking for their spouse is that
they didn't see theseindividuals in social
environments.
They didn't see them interactwith the waiter, with the person

(01:03:38):
who held the door for them.
There was no outside world.
So they only got to know themme and you, and you and me and
barely anybody else, so theydidn't get to see the whole
entire them.
Now, with this war, you'reseeing people for real.
You're seeing a lot ofvulnerable exposure.
I mean, it is really there.

(01:03:59):
People are going on dates.
They're not ignoring that theirinsides are upside down.
They're not ignoring the factthat they're not in their house
today and what we do and what'sour routine, and I feel so
trapped.
And if somebody passed away,obviously that was emotional,
but you just had a lot of peoplegoing about their new lives on

(01:04:20):
Zoom, without social interaction, during COVID and during this
war time.
We're seeing a lot.
We're seeing a lot about peopleand I think that the way to
balance it because we said aboutthe emotional regulation and
what's happening.
There are going to be days thatare better and there are going
to be days or they're havingdays that were worse.
Mirza Shem, we should not haveany days that are worse or that

(01:04:43):
are hard.
But I think that the Pesuchimare our gold and it says Gila
Urbina Dita the Khedva, ahavaAhva Shalva Reyes.
There are two parts to arelationship and when you're
dating somebody, you have toexercise both parts of the
relationship Gila Urbina Ditathe Khedva, excitement let's go

(01:05:03):
to David Buster's and let's goout to eat and let's have fun
and let's do an escape roomtogether.
And Ahava Ahva Shalva Reyes,can I talk to you about how I'm
feeling?
Can I let you know what myinner world is like?
And men and women alike areboth able to practice both sides

(01:05:24):
of the relationship, so thatthey can ensure that we don't
have repeated history of thepast, where people were focused
more on one component withouthaving the connection you know
in the right, exact way, andthat we could.
And there are those that did,but there are also those that
didn't.
So we validate both and, atthis time moving forward, that

(01:05:47):
the men should know that, yes,you were not wired like women.
I never saw a man playing infirst or second grade.
Can we play house?
I want to be the daddy whowakes up in the middle of the
night helping the mommy give thebaby a bottle and change the
diaper and take the garbage outand go to work, and I've never,

(01:06:08):
ever, ever, seen that.
You know, and all you men whosee your three year old son
pushing a baby stroller, calmdown.
They like their trucks also.
It's okay, you don't have to bethe father was.
Oh, take that carriage to myson right now.
You know, like, like we justlike I don't know.
I'm sure no one knows what I'mtalking about here, but the

(01:06:30):
bottom line is that we areprogrammed to talk more, to cry
more, to play mommy more, todress up as a column, or it's
spoken to us about marriage leftand right, every stage of life.
Keep going.
You want to know what it's likein high school?
Well, good, so when you getmarried, in your session, right

(01:06:51):
Again, the boys, it's not partof it as much as it is with the
girls.
Is it imbalanced, you, darntootin?
Okay, so we put that on thetable.
Now that we know that men, weknow that you have feelings.
We are married to men.
We understand that you havefeelings and you should know
that they are normal and yourwife will love your feelings and

(01:07:11):
she will love your inner worldand she will feel very special
when she becomes the person thatyou chose to let in, to unlock,
to get inside to your heart andthat she will be the safe
person for you.
With those inner feelings thatmaybe you have deep friendships,
maybe you don't, it doesn'tmean you don't have feelings.
We know that you do and youshould feel good and confident

(01:07:32):
and being emotional is not asign of weakness.

Speaker 1 (01:07:35):
I'm going to push even harder question.
Maybe you're going to tell meit's so sophisticated and it
won't occur to people in theirearly 20s.
I'm dating.
Maybe I'm somewhere hoveringbetween friendship and maybe
heading towards emotionalintimacy.
Here we are we're in the middleof the war, I'm experiencing
stuff and, by the way, I want tojust quickly inject.
I think you can zoom in, maketwo extremes.

(01:07:57):
You know, somebody's like justemotionally circulated, they
can't function normally.
Or somebody was like totallywhat?
I want to talk about the greatscenario, because that's really
where most people are gonna beand that is, you're right, I did
go to work and I did performand I went to show and I don't.
It's at the end of the day whenI know Need some release, and

(01:08:18):
release I'm having is I'm goingto date, and so finally I might,
you know in some inappropriateway, or tell myself okay, here's
finally where I could sort oflet my guard down because I'm
not interested in telling myboss or my co-worker just might
be totally inappropriate settingto discuss politics, we know,
whatever it may be, but the date, hey, the right, that's the

(01:08:38):
environment, that right now, myworld, it could be the place.
So the question I have is wheredating?
I think it's going well, butnow I'm wondering if and we can
touch on it earlier but I reallywant you to expand on the
things really moving, becauseI'm right now in distress, she's
in distress and we areconnecting around that versus

(01:09:00):
there really is a good, solidfoundation underneath us and I
don't have to worry that I'mreally sort of marching forward
deeper into this relationshipbecause of the current
circumstances.
You know, emotional upheaval orher emotional people.
I like Howard, me right, you'rethe one so speak, on the front
lines of dealing with them.

(01:09:20):
I only get them after the whole.
So you flagging for, hey, youto need to be careful.
I'm concerned that therelationship is getting deeper
for the wrong reasons, meaningBecause you both, right now, are
getting this emotional comfortout of this relationship rather
than building a properfoundation of commonalities and

(01:09:41):
not, you know, common vision forwhat you want out of the
relationship.
How are you flagging for thesethings?

Speaker 2 (01:09:47):
I think there's like two short answers which are
really really short, and one ofthem is that it's a springboard
to help you get to the otherreal stuff.
That's number one.
You're not there's.
There's only so much you canconnect on that level of how
much we have in common about howwe feel about it is well,
everybody could eat everybodyright now.
If that's the case, becauseeveryone is going through a lot
of these feelings, it should beused only as a springboard.

(01:10:07):
The deeper connection, becauseit's a very safe personal
feeling, it's not very private.
And number two is that I don'tbelieve that you have to run
towards skipping over each ofthe levels and each of the, each
of the dating stages.
It's very important to gothrough each and every single
one, even if it might acceleratelevel two to go straight to
level three of emotionalintimacy.
Be careful.
Some of your stages might beshorter.
But the last thing is, I thinkwe're seeing, now more than ever

(01:10:29):
, that we're really very similar.
We're all Jewish.
They don't care if you have ayoung on your head.
If you don't, they didn't carewith.
A Jew is a Jew is a Jew.
That's the end of it.
We have more in common witheach other than we even realize
we really do.
We might be open to more ideasthat we wouldn't have been open
to.
Because it's needed.
We needed this to shake us upand to realize how much we have
in common.

Speaker 1 (01:10:50):
That's exactly sir, I'm sorry but that's exactly
what I just want to push it forme.
Hello, you could pick up on.
The answer is I hear whatyou're saying there, but the
issue is what if I am usingexactly that information, not
intentionally, not because Iknow I have some bad reason for
doing it, just it could be verysubconscious, just you know sort
of the emotions are caring aperson especially a young person

(01:11:11):
especially a guy who you knowif you were sitting, learning
and trained to be cerebral, andall of a sudden is getting hit
with emotional.
So, yeah, I'm sitting with thegirl on the date.
I'm like you know what, right,what world's coming to an end
anyway, and I'm saying just,people could catastrophize and
Experience certain things thathe wouldn't otherwise, when it's

(01:11:32):
not time of war and all of asudden it's yeah, I think she's
good enough, yeah, I think he'sgood enough.
So I'm just wondering what areyou doing on the front lines?
Because you're there with them.
You know I can share with youwhat I would be doing if I was a
shot, and I'm not.
I can only tell you what theytalk about after the fact that
they wish were in the picturewhen they were on those stages.

(01:11:54):
But I'm very curious tounderstand Right, you're
listening to them and how areyou flagging for?
Wait a second, I'm picking uphere, like I said, misplaced
emotion good intention but notproperly applied.
how are you flagging for any ofthat sort of?

Speaker 3 (01:12:09):
Okay, I'm gonna.
I'm gonna jump in here and saythat I think the benefit of what
we're going through right nowis an ability to fast track,
getting past the superficial,getting into the real.
The real doesn't mean thatyou're necessarily.
For me, the real just meansthat you know.
What I find typically is thatwe think we have two people
going on a date, but that's notwhat I see.
What I see is that every time Ihave a guy who went on a date

(01:12:30):
and didn't work out, he puts upa brick to protect himself.
And every time she went on adate and didn't work out, she
puts up another brick To protectherself because nobody wants to
get hurt.
And I see people walking aroundwith fortresses To protect
themselves.
And it takes so many dates aswe get older because we've all
been hurt, we've all beenrejected.
It's painful for all of us, youknow.
I see them going on dates withthese fortresses and no one

(01:12:50):
could really get to know anyone,because everyone's trying to
protect themselves, andprotecting yourself is helpful
in terms of not getting hurt inthe future.
The problem, that is, that wedon't allow anybody in, and I
think the benefit of what we'regoing through right now is
claustral, is an ability tobreak down those barriers and
break down those walls, becauseI could just be real with you,
you could just be real with me.
It's, you know, inherently asafe space where we can be open

(01:13:13):
and share.
That doesn't mean that you'refor me, it doesn't mean that I'm
for you, but I think that itwill fast track our dating to
like get to the realconversations sooner, and that
will be helpful.
One of the things that I use asa witness test is what are my
deal breakers right?
What are my needs and wants ina relationship?
That's something that Iestablished with somebody very,
very early on.
We really have to be focused onmaking sure that our core needs

(01:13:36):
are being met.
If our wants are met and ourneeds are not being met, this
relationship will not beSustainable long term, and so
you really have to focus onmaking sure that those needs are
being met, and we're going toneed to focus on that right away
so I can get to know thisperson deeper and faster.
But we still might not havegoals and values that match up
we split not and I might nothave a shot was a match up, we
still might not have emotional.
You know level of connectionthat will match up, but I will

(01:13:58):
get.
You could have connection, youcould have connection but it
would never work right Becauseother things are not in
alignment right, and that's fine, but at least I'll get to know
this person deeper and faster,will be more real with each
other, because I think peopleare having less patience for all
the small Superficial thingsand I think that this is allowed
us to go deeper faster.
So so you know, I think it'simportant that we make that very

(01:14:20):
clear.
We're not just pushing anyoneto marry anybody.
I mean, I don't push anyone toanything, but we're not
encouraging anyone to just marryanyone because I'm a jew and
you're a jew.
That's not the point.
I think that this just has theability for us to get real
sooner, you know, get rid of thesuperficiality, break down
those barriers that kind ofprotect us and and in trap us,
and get real with the actualcomponents of who are we and can

(01:14:42):
we actually connect in thethings that we, in the areas
that we really need.
Because it is important to beselfish with what my needs are,
because if I'm not selfish anddating and I say this very often
I cannot be a good giver.
I need to make sure my needsare being met in order to get.
I think I will kind of end withthat.
This is unprecedented times andI think that people are digging
deep within themselves and whenwe dig deep we often find the

(01:15:03):
best parts of ourselves come out.
And when the best parts of uscome out and we're able to work
on ourselves, grow, develop,connect and be open, then great
things can come of it.
And I really, really dive inand hope that from this matzah
that we're in, reallyspectacular, beautiful, but in a
month could be built in thesetimes, I mean is he want you any
parting words?

Speaker 2 (01:15:23):
you're good, I really think rachel made it full
circle I think you went from theunderstanding from the
beginning about what we're goingthrough, the emotions of what
we're going through, how toutilize it to keep it.
Switch on allowing thevulnerability, being able to get
to levels of understandingEarlier, on being real with
oneself, being able to developand grow in many multiple ways

(01:15:45):
to help those you know about himand that you just discussed.
I think that how you reallyjust brought it full circle.

Speaker 1 (01:15:51):
Yeah, it's one of those two.

Speaker 3 (01:15:53):
You know it should be a close for all of us to try
and heal the pain of claus raw,to be able to rebuild, and I
also just want to personallythank you for being on this
front lines.

Speaker 1 (01:16:02):
These are such important stages, the
foundational stage, people'slives going into building
families just want to preeminentvalues of the jewish people.
So special that you're on thosefront lines helping guide
people, especially throughchallenging times.
Thank you for doing work thankyou.

Speaker 2 (01:16:18):
thank you for what you do, pleasure thank you for
joining us today.

Speaker 1 (01:16:21):
For questions, comments, topics you'd like to
hear more about, or to try our24 week relationship challenge,
email us at relationshipreimagined at gmail.

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