December 31, 2023 • 24 mins
Embark on an enlightening odyssey with me, as we navigate the intricate web of our relational selves and the profound impact of our early attachments on our adult relationships. Ever pondered the possibility of measuring relational intelligence, akin to IQ or EQ? We delve deep into this concept, examining how our 'clean slate' at birth evolves through experiences and attachment styles, shaping our interactions and connections. Our journey uncovers the developmental influences that craft our relational behaviors and the pivotal role of understanding our own attachment styles in nurturing meaningful partnerships.
Peeling back the layers of our subconscious, this episode reveals the compelling stories we construct about our self-worth and how they guide us—often unknowingly—toward certain partners in a dance of unconscious coupling. We tackle the narratives spun from adverse childhood experiences that can entrap us in a cycle of unworthiness, and the transformative power of confronting these tales head-on. By expanding our self-perception, we unlock the potential for genuine connections, realizing that the world we perceive is merely a reflection of our internal dialogue.
As our exploration reaches its zenith, we confront the distressing reality of societal pressures that mask our authentic selves in exchange for acceptance. Together, we unravel the joy of rekindling the playfulness of our early existence, the therapeutic potency of relationships, and the essentiality of connection for our well-being. Through the poignant lens of cultural and psychological insights, I invite you to discover your relational self in order to become the best possible version of yourself.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hello and welcome to dating, marriage and divorce
conversations where we analyze,navigate and troubleshoot all
stages of your romantic life.
I'm your host, igor Meistelman,a divorce attorney turn
relationship coach.
Okay, hello everybody, we'reback, and today I want to talk
(00:31):
about a concept that has beenmore and more solidifying in my
mind as to how we relate toothers.
What makes us relate the way wedo, and can we conceptualize it
and maybe even create for itlike a test, a quotient?
The way we have IQ forintellect, now there's also EQ
emotional quotient.
(00:52):
Perhaps there's also somethingto be said about intelligence in
the realm of us being able tobe relational.
Different people relatedefinitely to others, but when
we go into relationships,especially romantic
relationships, which are some ofthe hardest relationships to
navigate, we don't pause andspend time on thinking what kind
of a relational self do I bringto the picture and how that's
(01:15):
going to impact how I manage therelationship, how I relate,
whether it's to the spouse, tomy children.
And the more we could unpackand have a better grasp on how
our relational self operates,then perhaps the more we'll be
able to improve and make ourrelationships be more effective,
more meaningful, with reductionof arguments and tension and
(01:38):
disputes, because we willunderstand each of our
respective relational selves.
So let's take a look at howthis journey even begins.
When we are born, the premiseswere all born in a certain way
like a clean slate.
We are totally open, availablefor exploration, just a state of
curiosity, of wonder, andeverything is open.
(02:01):
Everything is sort of up forgrabs.
We're like wet cement and theworld around us could leave deep
, lasting impressions and ofcourse some of those impressions
could be meaningful and lifetransforming and bring us
towards another step closertowards our greatness, our own
development.
And then there are things thatcould happen in life that could
(02:21):
stifle, that could take awayfrom that journey.
Typically we refer to thesethings as trauma, whether it's
capital T trauma or a little ttrauma, and today more and more
phrase ACE is used.
Ace stands for adversechildhood experiences, because
not everything technically istrauma, but things could have an
adverse impact.
(02:42):
Let's say, you know, from justphysical mistreatment my parents
spanked me to being berated,criticized, not seen, not spent
time with, not appreciated, andas a result of those
interactions, imprint is madeupon my personality, my world
outlooks, how I view myself, howI view the world and how I view
(03:06):
how the world looks at me.
All of these things leave adeep impact and so, as these
impressions are made upon us andwe continue our journey in
growth and development, we startdeveloping an attachment style,
and there are generally, in theworld of child development,
four attachment styles, andthrough those attachment styles
(03:30):
we begin to display how weinteract with the world.
In other words, our relationalself begins to develop, take
form and ultimately, of course,begins to cement and take on a
more constant, regularpresentation, and usually they
(03:51):
refer to the four styles, arereferred to a secure attachment,
ambivalent attachment, avoidantattachment and disorganized
attachment.
Now, without getting intodetails about it today something
that you totally could Googleand quickly find answers to,
suffice it to say that each ofthose styles will display
(04:11):
different reality of how I am inthe world, how I exist, what
makes me tick, what throws mefor a loop, what makes me
anxious, what keeps me calm andrelaxed, focused, present.
All these things are impacteddepending on what type of
attachment style I take on.
(04:33):
What's interesting is that whenwe're young, our reptilian
brains, which is the back of ourhead, are much more in command.
That's the part of us that isthe natural survival instinct,
the God-given instinct toself-preserve that has to be
available from the moment ofbirth, whereas the prefrontal
(04:53):
cortex doesn't really take formuntil later stages of
development and so really mostof our younger years.
We are very much in anemotional state of being, which
is precisely why relationshipswill leave such a meaningful or
harmful impact on our psyche,our personality, our development
(05:14):
.
Precisely because we are soavailable through that channel,
we don't have the ability tofilter out and say, oh, you know
, that person is hurting mebecause really they're the ones
who are broken, they're the oneswho are damaged or have their
own childhood wounds and they'retaking them out on me.
We're not able to think thatway in those formative years.
It's not only until later inlife that we begin to develop a
(05:36):
sense of, oh, there's some,there's a world around me,
there's a world outside of me,and that world does things that
has not done with me, I'm notconnected to it.
But that requires certainability to analyze forward
thinking, delayed gratification,and those abilities don't kick
in until prefrontal cortexbegins to become active, which
(05:57):
is much later in life.
You know, somebody handed theorder.
He was telling me I haven'tlooked at the research myself.
They're saying now there'sresearch on, prefrontal cortex
doesn't fully, fully develop andmature until like 27 years old.
So if you think about that,when we're now talking about
teenage years, adolescence years, we're talking about deeply,
(06:17):
highly impressionable, impactfulyears of life, and so what
people of that age are exposedto could leave life long,
lasting impacts on theirpersonality and their psyche.
So, having said that, whathappens then as we're
progressing?
Well now, let's say, my parentinteracted with me in a certain
way, or my immediate caretakerwasn't there for me, whether I
(06:40):
was abandoned or I was treatedvery poorly, my parent was such
an intense disciplinarian.
All these things left an impact, left an imprint, and in order
to survive because now myprefrontal cortex began to
develop, I now used that mind tomake sense of what's happening
to me and to the world around me.
(07:01):
Why is the world interactingthis way with me?
And that's why one of thequotes I love from Dr Gabor Mate
on trauma is he always wouldsay trauma is not what happened
to me, it's what happened insideof me.
So, in other words, it's notthe fact that my parent hit me
or my parent criticized me orberated me, that's not actually
(07:22):
what then left the impact.
What left.
The impact is after that eventtook place.
I then told myself a story.
I needed to assign meaning tothat experience because if I
didn't, you'd make it reallydifficult to survive.
And you think about it, right,somebody is mistreating me.
At that moment it's very hardto just say, oh, it's because
(07:42):
they're hurt or because theyhave their own wounds.
The first place normal personwill go to is oh, I must be not
good enough, I must be theproblem.
It's not really that person.
Something's wrong with me.
I don't deserve to have a placein this world.
I'm not deserving of receivinglove and celebration and being
cheered for that I can succeed,that I can accomplish something
(08:06):
in life.
That's not really possible forme.
That's not in the cards.
So therefore, really, it's notthat initial interaction, the
hit, the criticism, the negativecomment.
It's then the story I starttelling myself through my mind
and as I go through my day, Idevelop a confirmation bias,
meaning everything I look at inlife.
(08:26):
I start saying how can thisconfirm this belief I have?
And that's how I love givingexamples of oh, my boss didn't
give me a compliment, of course.
Why would I get a compliment?
I'm not good at my job afterall, I'm probably on the verge
of getting fired.
Or, oh, my father or my motherdoesn't hug me.
Of course not.
Why would they?
I'm not deserving of love.
Why would anybody hug somebodylike me?
(08:47):
After all, I'm not worthy, I'mnot deserving.
And so those narrativescontinue to energize and empower
those stories and then, in turn, cause my personality to
continue to shape and mold intothat type of a personality.
And so at that moment is whenwhat I call the relational self
(09:10):
begins to emerge, come intobeing and almost like take a
life of its own.
So, in other words, I'm nowgoing on dates.
I'm looking for a partner,spouse, a person I want to
travel through life with.
And how am I going through thatselection process?
Very likely I will not be goingthrough that process with an
(09:30):
open mind, open heart, justlooking to find who will be a
great compliment for me and Iwill be a great compliment for
them.
That's not really what goes on.
What really goes on inside ofus is I'm looking for.
Will this person traumatize meor re-traumatize me?
Will this person comfort thoseparts of me that are scared,
(09:53):
that are wounded, that arevulnerable?
And what's really interestingis, most of that process is
happening in our subconscious orour unconscious, depending on
how much we've suppressed theexperiences, depending on how
painful those experiences were,and Thus we call these things
Unconscious coupling.
(10:13):
I'm looking for a partner who isgoing to quote-unquote,
complete me or is going tocomfort me, and that's why I
need them in my life, so theycould comfort me and Help me
resolve, address those parts ofmyself.
And so, until I'm willing toLook in the mirror and
acknowledge Maybe there'ssomething going on inside of me
(10:35):
that has nothing to do with myspouse, is not to do with the
Relationship who I married, howmy spouse is treating me, maybe
has to do with how I interpretwhat my spouse is doing so that
it continues to fit with thenarrative in the story I
developed long, long ago.
And so the more a person iswilling to explore their own
(10:58):
Unresolved childhood wounds asJohn Bradshaw used to always say
, finishing my unfinishedbusiness.
As long as I am not willing togo there, not willing to take a
look at my unfinished business,that I will continue to engage
in unconscious coupling.
But the more I can begin to sayI want to bring to light, I
want to understand Where's thiscoming from, why I'm doing this,
(11:20):
then the more I will raise thestrength and the adequacy and
effectiveness of my relationalself, because now, when I relate
to others, it won't be from aplace of weakness, wounding,
seeking somebody to comfort meright, commonly referred to as
co-dependence.
I won't be doing those thingsanymore.
(11:41):
Instead, I will actually belooking to choose a partner
that's right for me, and I'll beable to make those choices,
because now I'm no longerlooking through the lens of my
brokenness, I'm looking throughthe land lands of a complete,
whole human being, and so myselection process will shift
(12:02):
significantly.
And this reminds me of one of myfavorite quotes I quoted
actually very often to myclients and Often in sessions,
because it's just such aprevalent Issue that comes up
for all of us we don't seethings as they are, we see
things as we are.
And it's such an importantthing to really really think
(12:24):
about and wrap our minds around.
We don't see things as they are.
We see things as we are.
Because, if we really thinkabout it, if I see the world
through my lens, my vantagepoint, well, I can ask myself
the question what is my vantagepoint?
My vantage point is a sum ofits parts, and what are its
(12:45):
parts?
The interactions that I've hadwith my caretakers, friends,
teachers in school thoseinteractions shaped me and
formed who I am and who I become.
And I might fool myself andthink that I am looking at the
world with this perfectly clear,objective view.
(13:06):
But the reality, the truth ofthe matter, is I'm only seeing
things of the perceptiveperspective that I'm able to
have and able to look at thingsthrough that perspective, and
therefore, by definition, I amlimited to that perspective.
So I don't see things as theyare.
I only see things as I am.
(13:26):
And until I'm willing to cometo a place of understanding,
acceptance of who I am, where Iam right now, only then I can
begin the journey of expandingthat definition of the self to
properly include other humanbeings.
Then my world is beginning toexpand to allow room for others
(13:49):
to enter.
And until that work happens, itwill really be inaccurate and
unfair to say that I am nowoperating in a way where I truly
see your world and you trulysee mine.
And that's why so common thatcouples will ask me questions
like well, what's really thedifference between me seeing the
(14:10):
other person's world or meseeing their world through my
perspective?
And to me the answer is alwayspretty obvious.
Well, if you see the otherperson through your perspective,
there is a very good chanceyou're not seeing them.
You're seeing your ownperspective.
So you could never really saycan't honestly say that I've
come to a place where I see you,can't really say that.
(14:34):
All you could really say is Isee you as I am able to see you
or worse, I only see you as I am.
So if I'm limited and I'minsecure, I'm.
When I look at you, I seeinsecurity.
But if I am broad and deep andI'm able to appreciate my
strengths, my abilities, who Iam, then when I look at you, I
(14:57):
see all of your potentials andyour talents and abilities.
And that's why we don't seethings as they are.
I see them as I am.
And the sad reality is thatunless I'm willing to put in
that work, I'm only going tocontinue to look at you and only
see you through that limitedlens that I have, and sometimes,
(15:17):
unfortunately, this alsohappens.
Often, worse is, I will onlybelieve that you are, that that
I see through my own limitedlens and instead of being able
to step back for once and saywait a second, I don't think I
ever really saw you.
I think I only saw this myopic,limited, narrow version of you
(15:42):
Because that's all my world wasable to hold, that's all my
world was able to offer, andinstead of being able to
properly take you in fully, Ionly was able to have access to
these limited perspectives andperceptions.
I want to come back for aminute to the moment of birth.
Hooray, or we say mazeltov,congratulations, a new life has
entered.
Let's take a closer look,because I want to give this
(16:03):
example to really cement justhow intense the relational self
beats inside of us, pulsatingthrough our veins.
Look at what happens when thebaby is born.
The moment the baby is born, itcannot walk, it cannot run,
unlike any other creature inanimal kingdom.
That, pretty much on the firstday the deer is born, a cow, a
(16:25):
lion, soon.
As the child is born, it,within a day, will develop vital
survival abilities.
It can walk around, can movearound.
It can do other functions Ahuman being a year at least for
many kids, even longer delaybefore they're able to do even
the most basic functionalities.
But what can it do when it'sborn?
(16:45):
It can nurse, meaning it caneat, and it can connect.
It could make eye contact,embrace, be held and experience
comfort through that.
And if we actually were to putlike a hormone X-ray machine, or
if we did a blood test both ofthe mother and the child, we
(17:05):
would actually notice that thereare all kinds of hormones that
are released in the mother'sbody, in the baby's body, that
continue to bring on andintensify the state of
connection.
That's a relational self that,even at the moment of birth,
subconsciously already callingout, already craving to
(17:26):
experience this deep connection.
A baby that will be left lyingwithout hugs and human
interactions will die, and soturns out.
Food and water is not the onlyingredients that are actually
essential for survival.
Human contact is as well,especially to an infant or to a
(17:46):
very young child, and Gavramaterefers to this as the love
cocktail.
It says, because look at allthese hormones that are just
circulating through the body andtraveling through the mother's
milk to the child.
It's clear that the moment we'reborn we are wired for
connection.
That is what brings us into theworld and immediately fills us
(18:08):
with a sense of meaning, purpose, aliveness.
It's experiencing thatrelational self.
And then, as that journeycontinues, and all of a sudden
I'm told I'm not good enough.
I'm told don't do that, don'tplay this way, don't do this
activity, don't touch that.
My world now has to questionhow playful can I be, how much
(18:30):
can I live in a state of joy, ina state of enjoyment flow, just
interacting with the world,almost carefree, not indifferent
, not rude or mean, but just acertain just flow of existence
that gets blocked and gets shutdown.
A very good friend of mine isalso a therapist who shared that
in the Native American cultures, when somebody seems to have
(18:53):
been depressed or sad, theywould bring this person to sort
of like their shaman, like anelder sage, and the elder sage
would ask this person can yourecall when did you stop to
dance, when did you stop to sing?
And I thought that is soprofound.
Because what's really behindthat type of an inquiry?
(19:14):
Because the question is sayingwhen did you live your life of
flow of existence, of joy, whereyou just feel celebrated and
you just wanna celebrate others,you wanna experience connection
with other human beings.
And this is the part of thechallenge, the reality of our
lives, as we become socializedthrough society and we develop
(19:35):
understanding that these are therules of engagement, these are
the social cues, this is what'sokay, this is what's not okay,
and we have to continuouslycondition how we present in the
world, how we share ourselves,and part of that sharing will
involve giving up something else.
Some aspect of our authenticselves has to be put to rest,
(19:57):
put to sleep, told to go offline, because maybe the world won't
accept this part of me, theworld won't embrace me being
silly, me, being funny, me beinggoofy.
The world won't accept that,and so I need to put this part
of me to rest, let it go, andonly manifest or share those
(20:19):
parts of me that would be deemedquote unquote acceptable by the
society around me.
All of this continues to impact, shape, reshape our relational
selves because, after all, welive in societies, so we are
gonna be constantly interactingwith people.
But as I overlay these layersof expectations of the man's,
(20:40):
the world wants me to be acertain thing, the world wants
me to be a certain way.
The more those things have to bepart of my life, the more my
relational self is impacted.
And so, when I approachrelationships and interactions,
I can no longer approach themfrom my authentic place of
existence.
I can only approach it throughthis modified variation of
(21:06):
myself.
And so part of the reclaimingjourney, when it comes to the
relational self, is saying howcan I come back to that version
of myself, the me that wasplayful, the thought that life
was fun, that the world was myoyster and I can pursue dreams
and be open and imaginative,explorative, and I don't have to
(21:30):
worry?
Will it be embraced by everyone?
Will it be accepted?
I can just focus on the beautyof my life, the uniqueness of
who I am.
And these are, for sure, thedifferent avenues, different
approaches that we've seenthroughout history of when
people introduce new schools ofthought, new approaches that
essentially really will boildown to this idea of what could
(21:52):
help a human being experience orhave an authentic moment of
expression, authentic moment ofconnection.
And we see that that really canonly happen once I'm able to
bring online or return back tomy life the very thought that I
had the very thing that I had topart ways with, the very thing
that I had to let go in order tomaintain my place in a society.
(22:15):
And very often those are thepainful choices that traumatize
people, and especially kids oryoung, young men and young women
, when we see the clash betweenmy individual self, my
uniqueness in the world.
How I made an image of God inmy unique way clashes with the
expectations of the society, thedemands of what the world wants
(22:37):
to see from me, of how theworld wants me to show up.
I experience certainself-alienation after distance
myself from myself and thatdistance then has a very direct
impact on how I am relationally,how and what I now seek out.
Maybe I'm just not sointerested and I'm not so
demanding.
And even though I started afamily, I wasn't really looking
(22:59):
to experience deep connections,I just thought I just started a
family.
And on the other extreme, thereare people who they can't live
without a relationship and theyconstantly have to follow people
around and receive inputs andoffered perspectives and given
affirmations that they're okayand you're doing okay and I
believe in you, and withoutthose things they just feel
suffocating.
(23:19):
Because that relational selfbecame deformed, it was impacted
in some negative way by notreceiving what it needed.
So I want to share with you myfavorite quote that goes
something like this we are borninto relationships, we are
harmed through relationships andwe heal through relationships.
And I am hoping that in theweeks to come I'm going to get
(23:41):
into more detail about each ofthese stages, the progression
from infancy and very young ageto the trauma and adverse
childhood evasive experience tothe narratives we tell ourselves
.
And, of course, ultimately,what's going to matter is how do
I go through thisself-recleaning journey, how do
I become the person that I canbe, that I should be, how do I
(24:02):
navigate that story?
So stay tuned.
Thank you for joining us today.
For questions, comments, topicsyou'd like to hear more about,
or to try out our 24 weekrelationship challenge, email us
at relationshipreimagined atgmail.
Hello and welcome to dating, marriage and divorce
conversations where we analyze,navigate and troubleshoot all
stages of your romantic life.
I'm your host, igor Meistelman,a divorce attorney turn
relationship coach.
Okay, hello everybody, we'reback, and today I want to talk
(00:31):
about a concept that has beenmore and more solidifying in my
mind as to how we relate toothers.
What makes us relate the way wedo, and can we conceptualize it
and maybe even create for itlike a test, a quotient?
The way we have IQ forintellect, now there's also EQ
emotional quotient.
(00:52):
Perhaps there's also somethingto be said about intelligence in
the realm of us being able tobe relational.
Different people relatedefinitely to others, but when
we go into relationships,especially romantic
relationships, which are some ofthe hardest relationships to
navigate, we don't pause andspend time on thinking what kind
of a relational self do I bringto the picture and how that's
(01:15):
going to impact how I manage therelationship, how I relate,
whether it's to the spouse, tomy children.
And the more we could unpackand have a better grasp on how
our relational self operates,then perhaps the more we'll be
able to improve and make ourrelationships be more effective,
more meaningful, with reductionof arguments and tension and
(01:38):
disputes, because we willunderstand each of our
respective relational selves.
So let's take a look at howthis journey even begins.
When we are born, the premiseswere all born in a certain way
like a clean slate.
We are totally open, availablefor exploration, just a state of
curiosity, of wonder, andeverything is open.
(02:01):
Everything is sort of up forgrabs.
We're like wet cement and theworld around us could leave deep
, lasting impressions and ofcourse some of those impressions
could be meaningful and lifetransforming and bring us
towards another step closertowards our greatness, our own
development.
And then there are things thatcould happen in life that could
(02:21):
stifle, that could take awayfrom that journey.
Typically we refer to thesethings as trauma, whether it's
capital T trauma or a little ttrauma, and today more and more
phrase ACE is used.
Ace stands for adversechildhood experiences, because
not everything technically istrauma, but things could have an
adverse impact.
(02:42):
Let's say, you know, from justphysical mistreatment my parents
spanked me to being berated,criticized, not seen, not spent
time with, not appreciated, andas a result of those
interactions, imprint is madeupon my personality, my world
outlooks, how I view myself, howI view the world and how I view
(03:06):
how the world looks at me.
All of these things leave adeep impact and so, as these
impressions are made upon us andwe continue our journey in
growth and development, we startdeveloping an attachment style,
and there are generally, in theworld of child development,
four attachment styles, andthrough those attachment styles
(03:30):
we begin to display how weinteract with the world.
In other words, our relationalself begins to develop, take
form and ultimately, of course,begins to cement and take on a
more constant, regularpresentation, and usually they
(03:51):
refer to the four styles, arereferred to a secure attachment,
ambivalent attachment, avoidantattachment and disorganized
attachment.
Now, without getting intodetails about it today something
that you totally could Googleand quickly find answers to,
suffice it to say that each ofthose styles will display
(04:11):
different reality of how I am inthe world, how I exist, what
makes me tick, what throws mefor a loop, what makes me
anxious, what keeps me calm andrelaxed, focused, present.
All these things are impacteddepending on what type of
attachment style I take on.
(04:33):
What's interesting is that whenwe're young, our reptilian
brains, which is the back of ourhead, are much more in command.
That's the part of us that isthe natural survival instinct,
the God-given instinct toself-preserve that has to be
available from the moment ofbirth, whereas the prefrontal
(04:53):
cortex doesn't really take formuntil later stages of
development and so really mostof our younger years.
We are very much in anemotional state of being, which
is precisely why relationshipswill leave such a meaningful or
harmful impact on our psyche,our personality, our development
(05:14):
.
Precisely because we are soavailable through that channel,
we don't have the ability tofilter out and say, oh, you know
, that person is hurting mebecause really they're the ones
who are broken, they're the oneswho are damaged or have their
own childhood wounds and they'retaking them out on me.
We're not able to think thatway in those formative years.
It's not only until later inlife that we begin to develop a
(05:36):
sense of, oh, there's some,there's a world around me,
there's a world outside of me,and that world does things that
has not done with me, I'm notconnected to it.
But that requires certainability to analyze forward
thinking, delayed gratification,and those abilities don't kick
in until prefrontal cortexbegins to become active, which
(05:57):
is much later in life.
You know, somebody handed theorder.
He was telling me I haven'tlooked at the research myself.
They're saying now there'sresearch on, prefrontal cortex
doesn't fully, fully develop andmature until like 27 years old.
So if you think about that,when we're now talking about
teenage years, adolescence years, we're talking about deeply,
(06:17):
highly impressionable, impactfulyears of life, and so what
people of that age are exposedto could leave life long,
lasting impacts on theirpersonality and their psyche.
So, having said that, whathappens then as we're
progressing?
Well now, let's say, my parentinteracted with me in a certain
way, or my immediate caretakerwasn't there for me, whether I
(06:40):
was abandoned or I was treatedvery poorly, my parent was such
an intense disciplinarian.
All these things left an impact, left an imprint, and in order
to survive because now myprefrontal cortex began to
develop, I now used that mind tomake sense of what's happening
to me and to the world around me.
(07:01):
Why is the world interactingthis way with me?
And that's why one of thequotes I love from Dr Gabor Mate
on trauma is he always wouldsay trauma is not what happened
to me, it's what happened insideof me.
So, in other words, it's notthe fact that my parent hit me
or my parent criticized me orberated me, that's not actually
(07:22):
what then left the impact.
What left.
The impact is after that eventtook place.
I then told myself a story.
I needed to assign meaning tothat experience because if I
didn't, you'd make it reallydifficult to survive.
And you think about it, right,somebody is mistreating me.
At that moment it's very hardto just say, oh, it's because
(07:42):
they're hurt or because theyhave their own wounds.
The first place normal personwill go to is oh, I must be not
good enough, I must be theproblem.
It's not really that person.
Something's wrong with me.
I don't deserve to have a placein this world.
I'm not deserving of receivinglove and celebration and being
cheered for that I can succeed,that I can accomplish something
(08:06):
in life.
That's not really possible forme.
That's not in the cards.
So therefore, really, it's notthat initial interaction, the
hit, the criticism, the negativecomment.
It's then the story I starttelling myself through my mind
and as I go through my day, Idevelop a confirmation bias,
meaning everything I look at inlife.
(08:26):
I start saying how can thisconfirm this belief I have?
And that's how I love givingexamples of oh, my boss didn't
give me a compliment, of course.
Why would I get a compliment?
I'm not good at my job afterall, I'm probably on the verge
of getting fired.
Or, oh, my father or my motherdoesn't hug me.
Of course not.
Why would they?
I'm not deserving of love.
Why would anybody hug somebodylike me?
(08:47):
After all, I'm not worthy, I'mnot deserving.
And so those narrativescontinue to energize and empower
those stories and then, in turn, cause my personality to
continue to shape and mold intothat type of a personality.
And so at that moment is whenwhat I call the relational self
(09:10):
begins to emerge, come intobeing and almost like take a
life of its own.
So, in other words, I'm nowgoing on dates.
I'm looking for a partner,spouse, a person I want to
travel through life with.
And how am I going through thatselection process?
Very likely I will not be goingthrough that process with an
(09:30):
open mind, open heart, justlooking to find who will be a
great compliment for me and Iwill be a great compliment for
them.
That's not really what goes on.
What really goes on inside ofus is I'm looking for.
Will this person traumatize meor re-traumatize me?
Will this person comfort thoseparts of me that are scared,
(09:53):
that are wounded, that arevulnerable?
And what's really interestingis, most of that process is
happening in our subconscious orour unconscious, depending on
how much we've suppressed theexperiences, depending on how
painful those experiences were,and Thus we call these things
Unconscious coupling.
(10:13):
I'm looking for a partner who isgoing to quote-unquote,
complete me or is going tocomfort me, and that's why I
need them in my life, so theycould comfort me and Help me
resolve, address those parts ofmyself.
And so, until I'm willing toLook in the mirror and
acknowledge Maybe there'ssomething going on inside of me
(10:35):
that has nothing to do with myspouse, is not to do with the
Relationship who I married, howmy spouse is treating me, maybe
has to do with how I interpretwhat my spouse is doing so that
it continues to fit with thenarrative in the story I
developed long, long ago.
And so the more a person iswilling to explore their own
(10:58):
Unresolved childhood wounds asJohn Bradshaw used to always say
, finishing my unfinishedbusiness.
As long as I am not willing togo there, not willing to take a
look at my unfinished business,that I will continue to engage
in unconscious coupling.
But the more I can begin to sayI want to bring to light, I
want to understand Where's thiscoming from, why I'm doing this,
(11:20):
then the more I will raise thestrength and the adequacy and
effectiveness of my relationalself, because now, when I relate
to others, it won't be from aplace of weakness, wounding,
seeking somebody to comfort meright, commonly referred to as
co-dependence.
I won't be doing those thingsanymore.
(11:41):
Instead, I will actually belooking to choose a partner
that's right for me, and I'll beable to make those choices,
because now I'm no longerlooking through the lens of my
brokenness, I'm looking throughthe land lands of a complete,
whole human being, and so myselection process will shift
(12:02):
significantly.
And this reminds me of one of myfavorite quotes I quoted
actually very often to myclients and Often in sessions,
because it's just such aprevalent Issue that comes up
for all of us we don't seethings as they are, we see
things as we are.
And it's such an importantthing to really really think
(12:24):
about and wrap our minds around.
We don't see things as they are.
We see things as we are.
Because, if we really thinkabout it, if I see the world
through my lens, my vantagepoint, well, I can ask myself
the question what is my vantagepoint?
My vantage point is a sum ofits parts, and what are its
(12:45):
parts?
The interactions that I've hadwith my caretakers, friends,
teachers in school thoseinteractions shaped me and
formed who I am and who I become.
And I might fool myself andthink that I am looking at the
world with this perfectly clear,objective view.
(13:06):
But the reality, the truth ofthe matter, is I'm only seeing
things of the perceptiveperspective that I'm able to
have and able to look at thingsthrough that perspective, and
therefore, by definition, I amlimited to that perspective.
So I don't see things as theyare.
I only see things as I am.
(13:26):
And until I'm willing to cometo a place of understanding,
acceptance of who I am, where Iam right now, only then I can
begin the journey of expandingthat definition of the self to
properly include other humanbeings.
Then my world is beginning toexpand to allow room for others
(13:49):
to enter.
And until that work happens, itwill really be inaccurate and
unfair to say that I am nowoperating in a way where I truly
see your world and you trulysee mine.
And that's why so common thatcouples will ask me questions
like well, what's really thedifference between me seeing the
(14:10):
other person's world or meseeing their world through my
perspective?
And to me the answer is alwayspretty obvious.
Well, if you see the otherperson through your perspective,
there is a very good chanceyou're not seeing them.
You're seeing your ownperspective.
So you could never really saycan't honestly say that I've
come to a place where I see you,can't really say that.
(14:34):
All you could really say is Isee you as I am able to see you
or worse, I only see you as I am.
So if I'm limited and I'minsecure, I'm.
When I look at you, I seeinsecurity.
But if I am broad and deep andI'm able to appreciate my
strengths, my abilities, who Iam, then when I look at you, I
(14:57):
see all of your potentials andyour talents and abilities.
And that's why we don't seethings as they are.
I see them as I am.
And the sad reality is thatunless I'm willing to put in
that work, I'm only going tocontinue to look at you and only
see you through that limitedlens that I have, and sometimes,
(15:17):
unfortunately, this alsohappens.
Often, worse is, I will onlybelieve that you are, that that
I see through my own limitedlens and instead of being able
to step back for once and saywait a second, I don't think I
ever really saw you.
I think I only saw this myopic,limited, narrow version of you
(15:42):
Because that's all my world wasable to hold, that's all my
world was able to offer, andinstead of being able to
properly take you in fully, Ionly was able to have access to
these limited perspectives andperceptions.
I want to come back for aminute to the moment of birth.
Hooray, or we say mazeltov,congratulations, a new life has
entered.
Let's take a closer look,because I want to give this
(16:03):
example to really cement justhow intense the relational self
beats inside of us, pulsatingthrough our veins.
Look at what happens when thebaby is born.
The moment the baby is born, itcannot walk, it cannot run,
unlike any other creature inanimal kingdom.
That, pretty much on the firstday the deer is born, a cow, a
(16:25):
lion, soon.
As the child is born, it,within a day, will develop vital
survival abilities.
It can walk around, can movearound.
It can do other functions Ahuman being a year at least for
many kids, even longer delaybefore they're able to do even
the most basic functionalities.
But what can it do when it'sborn?
(16:45):
It can nurse, meaning it caneat, and it can connect.
It could make eye contact,embrace, be held and experience
comfort through that.
And if we actually were to putlike a hormone X-ray machine, or
if we did a blood test both ofthe mother and the child, we
(17:05):
would actually notice that thereare all kinds of hormones that
are released in the mother'sbody, in the baby's body, that
continue to bring on andintensify the state of
connection.
That's a relational self that,even at the moment of birth,
subconsciously already callingout, already craving to
(17:26):
experience this deep connection.
A baby that will be left lyingwithout hugs and human
interactions will die, and soturns out.
Food and water is not the onlyingredients that are actually
essential for survival.
Human contact is as well,especially to an infant or to a
(17:46):
very young child, and Gavramaterefers to this as the love
cocktail.
It says, because look at allthese hormones that are just
circulating through the body andtraveling through the mother's
milk to the child.
It's clear that the moment we'reborn we are wired for
connection.
That is what brings us into theworld and immediately fills us
(18:08):
with a sense of meaning, purpose, aliveness.
It's experiencing thatrelational self.
And then, as that journeycontinues, and all of a sudden
I'm told I'm not good enough.
I'm told don't do that, don'tplay this way, don't do this
activity, don't touch that.
My world now has to questionhow playful can I be, how much
(18:30):
can I live in a state of joy, ina state of enjoyment flow, just
interacting with the world,almost carefree, not indifferent
, not rude or mean, but just acertain just flow of existence
that gets blocked and gets shutdown.
A very good friend of mine isalso a therapist who shared that
in the Native American cultures, when somebody seems to have
(18:53):
been depressed or sad, theywould bring this person to sort
of like their shaman, like anelder sage, and the elder sage
would ask this person can yourecall when did you stop to
dance, when did you stop to sing?
And I thought that is soprofound.
Because what's really behindthat type of an inquiry?
(19:14):
Because the question is sayingwhen did you live your life of
flow of existence, of joy, whereyou just feel celebrated and
you just wanna celebrate others,you wanna experience connection
with other human beings.
And this is the part of thechallenge, the reality of our
lives, as we become socializedthrough society and we develop
(19:35):
understanding that these are therules of engagement, these are
the social cues, this is what'sokay, this is what's not okay,
and we have to continuouslycondition how we present in the
world, how we share ourselves,and part of that sharing will
involve giving up something else.
Some aspect of our authenticselves has to be put to rest,
(19:57):
put to sleep, told to go offline, because maybe the world won't
accept this part of me, theworld won't embrace me being
silly, me, being funny, me beinggoofy.
The world won't accept that,and so I need to put this part
of me to rest, let it go, andonly manifest or share those
(20:19):
parts of me that would be deemedquote unquote acceptable by the
society around me.
All of this continues to impact, shape, reshape our relational
selves because, after all, welive in societies, so we are
gonna be constantly interactingwith people.
But as I overlay these layersof expectations of the man's,
(20:40):
the world wants me to be acertain thing, the world wants
me to be a certain way.
The more those things have to bepart of my life, the more my
relational self is impacted.
And so, when I approachrelationships and interactions,
I can no longer approach themfrom my authentic place of
existence.
I can only approach it throughthis modified variation of
(21:06):
myself.
And so part of the reclaimingjourney, when it comes to the
relational self, is saying howcan I come back to that version
of myself, the me that wasplayful, the thought that life
was fun, that the world was myoyster and I can pursue dreams
and be open and imaginative,explorative, and I don't have to
(21:30):
worry?
Will it be embraced by everyone?
Will it be accepted?
I can just focus on the beautyof my life, the uniqueness of
who I am.
And these are, for sure, thedifferent avenues, different
approaches that we've seenthroughout history of when
people introduce new schools ofthought, new approaches that
essentially really will boildown to this idea of what could
(21:52):
help a human being experience orhave an authentic moment of
expression, authentic moment ofconnection.
And we see that that really canonly happen once I'm able to
bring online or return back tomy life the very thought that I
had the very thing that I had topart ways with, the very thing
that I had to let go in order tomaintain my place in a society.
(22:15):
And very often those are thepainful choices that traumatize
people, and especially kids oryoung, young men and young women
, when we see the clash betweenmy individual self, my
uniqueness in the world.
How I made an image of God inmy unique way clashes with the
expectations of the society, thedemands of what the world wants
(22:37):
to see from me, of how theworld wants me to show up.
I experience certainself-alienation after distance
myself from myself and thatdistance then has a very direct
impact on how I am relationally,how and what I now seek out.
Maybe I'm just not sointerested and I'm not so
demanding.
And even though I started afamily, I wasn't really looking
(22:59):
to experience deep connections,I just thought I just started a
family.
And on the other extreme, thereare people who they can't live
without a relationship and theyconstantly have to follow people
around and receive inputs andoffered perspectives and given
affirmations that they're okayand you're doing okay and I
believe in you, and withoutthose things they just feel
suffocating.
(23:19):
Because that relational selfbecame deformed, it was impacted
in some negative way by notreceiving what it needed.
So I want to share with you myfavorite quote that goes
something like this we are borninto relationships, we are
harmed through relationships andwe heal through relationships.
And I am hoping that in theweeks to come I'm going to get
(23:41):
into more detail about each ofthese stages, the progression
from infancy and very young ageto the trauma and adverse
childhood evasive experience tothe narratives we tell ourselves
.
And, of course, ultimately,what's going to matter is how do
I go through thisself-recleaning journey, how do
I become the person that I canbe, that I should be, how do I
(24:02):
navigate that story?
So stay tuned.
Thank you for joining us today.
For questions, comments, topicsyou'd like to hear more about,
or to try out our 24 weekrelationship challenge, email us
at relationshipreimagined atgmail.
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