Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
OK, picture this.
It's after 2008.
The housing market's justcompletely buckled and then
something kind of unexpectedhappens.
Wall Street firms big onesstart buying up loads of
foreclosed homes.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Yeah, that's right,
and the story they told, or the
idea that was floated, was youknow this would stabilize
everything, create a good stockof quality rentals.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
He seemed like a
reasonable plan on the surface,
didn't it?
Especially with everything soshaky?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
It really did.
I mean the thought of thesewell-funded companies bringing
sort of professional managementto the rental market.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
That had appeal.
It was often quite a fragmentedspace before that.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Absolutely so.
For this deep dive, we're notreally looking back at that
initial rescue idea.
What we want to get into iswhat happened next years down
the line, based on the reportsand analyses we've looked at
what was the actual reality forrenters, for their communities.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Right.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
We'll touch on those
early hopes, you know, fixing
the market, efficient,tech-driven stuff, decent places
to live.
But the real question, thatsort of bubbled up maybe a
decade later, is this whathappens when shareholder profit
maximizingizing that becomes the?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
main thing, driving
your landlord, and that's such a
critical turning point in thiswhole story.
It has really wide rangingconsequences, especially for the
growing number of peoplerenting.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Yeah, the scale we're
talking about here is just huge
.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Oh, absolutely,
Between what was it?
2011 and 2017, you had firmslike Blackstone, Cerberus,
Colony Capital.
They poured tens of billions ofdollars into this.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Billions Wow.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah, buying up
hundreds of thousands of
properties across the country.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Hundreds of thousands
, that's.
That changes the landscapeentirely, and it wasn't just
like the free market decidingthis was it.
I mean, the government had ahand in it too.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Well, yeah, the
Federal Housing Finance Agency,
the FHFA, they played a role.
They had this thing called theREO to Rental Pilot Program.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
REO to Rental.
Okay, how did that work?
How did it smooth the way, likeour sources say?
Speaker 2 (01:54):
It basically made it
easier for these big investors
to buy foreclosed properties inbulk.
These were properties that wereunder government
conservatorship you know FannieMae, freddie Mac so instead of
competing house by house, theycould acquire these large
portfolios, sometimespotentially on pretty favorable
terms.
It streamlined the wholeprocess for them massively.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Got it so huge
investments, facilitated partly
by this government program, andthe pitch from these new
corporate landlords sounded Well, pretty good initially.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
That was definitely
the vision they presented
Professional management usingtech, 247 hotlines, online
payment portals.
The idea was efficiency,economies of scale that maybe
your mom and pop landlord justcouldn't offer.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Right Makes sense.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
And you have to
remember the context too.
Between, say, 2007 and 2017,the number of renters in the US
went up quite a bit, so therewas definitely demand for rental
housing.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
And these companies
looked like they were stepping
in to meet it.
They did step in and maybe forsome people it worked out OK at
first.
But the reports we've seen theanalyses.
They paint a really differentpicture for a lot of renters.
Take Renee and Erica Valentintheir story in the Atlanta
suburbs renting from WaypointHomes which is now part of
Invitation Homes a huge player.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Yeah, invitation
Homes is one of the biggest.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Right.
Their experience seems toreally highlight the problems
that emerged.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
It does.
It's a really telling casebecause it just flies in the
face of that professionalmanagement promise.
They had recurring flooding,faulty pipes, Basic stuff
Exactly the kind of thing anylandlord should fix like
immediately.
But they faced really longwaits for repairs and,
tragically, you know, thereports say their kids actually
developed mold sensitivitiesbecause of it.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Oh, that's awful.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Yeah, and it wasn't
just the flooding.
It sounds like a pattern Loosenails, constant dust, just
general disrepair.
Suggesting maintenance wasn'treally keeping up.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
So the reports talk
about this shift right From
focusing on repairs and serviceto well cutting costs.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
That seems to be the
narrative.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
yes, Did these
companies ever actually use
their size for good, though,like did the tech help anyone,
or was it all just skewedtowards profit?
Because the Valentin storysounds like the complete
opposite of efficiency.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Well, look the
technology, the online portals,
that stuff often was implemented, but it seems the efficiency
gains mostly benefited thecompany's bottom line, you know,
streamlining their operations.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
It didn't always
translate into faster or better
help for renters with actualproblems like a leaky roof or
faulty plumbing.
The pressure to deliver returnsto shareholders that likely
push them to squeeze expenses.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Like maintenance
budgets.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Exactly Maintenance
budgets, staffing levels.
We read about maintenance crewsbeing stretched incredibly thin
.
Maybe one person responsiblefor hundreds, even thousands of
properties in some cases.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Wow, how could they
possibly keep up?
Speaker 2 (04:50):
It becomes
practically impossible to do
timely quality repairs at thatscale if you're understaffed.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
And it wasn't just
slow repairs.
The cost cutting hit rentersdirectly too, didn't it?
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Oh, absolutely.
They started introducingmeasures that shifted financial
burdens straight onto tenants.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Like what
specifically?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Things like charging
fees for maintenance visits,
even for stuff that clearlywasn't the renter's fault.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Seriously.
Yeah, you call about a leak andthey charge you for coming out.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
In some reported
cases yes or expecting tenants
to do certain repairs themselves, which again feels pretty far
from professional management.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Yeah, that's not what
you sign up for.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
And then there was
mandatory renter's insurance,
often requiring policies thatalso covered damage to the
property itself, adding anothercost layer for the tenant.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Hmm, Okay, and as
these companies got bigger you
mentioned invitation homes,American Homes for Rent they
merged, they grew.
Did that make things worse?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
It seems like the
consolidation gave them even
more leverage.
By 2017, invitation homes andAmerican Homes for Rent
controlled something like126,000 properties together.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
That's a huge chunk
of the market in certain areas.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
It is, and this size,
this market power appears to
have let them push thesecost-cutting and
revenue-generating strategieseven harder.
They found more ways to makemoney through what the reports
call tenant chargebacks.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Tenant chargebacks.
Okay, let's dig into that.
The sources say cash flow fromthese jumped significantly
between 2014 and 2018.
What kind of charges are wetalking about?
Speaker 2 (06:21):
It could be a whole
range of things, often creating
unexpected financial hits forrenters, like getting charged
for normal wear and tear whenyou move out small scuffs on a
wall, that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Stuff you'd normally
expect wouldn't come out of a
deposit maybe expect wouldn'tcome out of a deposit.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Maybe Potentially,
yeah, but maybe even more
concerning were things likeeviction filings triggered over
really small payment disputes,sometimes even software glitches
in their payment systems.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Wait, you could get
an eviction notice over a glitch
.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
According to the
reports, yes, and once that
process starts, it triggers awhole cascade of fees late fees,
court costs, lawyers' fees.
Suddenly, a small discrepancyblows up into a huge bill,
putting people at real risk oflosing their home.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
That paints a pretty
grim picture.
It sounds like a system almostdesigned to extract extra cash
rather than just collect therent for providing a home.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
The focus based on
these accounts really seems to
have shifted towards maximizingthat profit extraction,
sometimes, it appears, at theexpense of the tenant's
stability and well-being.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
And all this buying
this flood of institutional cash
into neighborhoods that musthave had ripples beyond just the
renders right on the housingmarket overall.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Absolutely A major
impact.
These companies flush with cash, often accessing cheap capital,
maybe even government-backed insome ways.
Initially, they could oftenoutbid regular people trying to
buy a home.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Especially first-time
buyers, I imagine.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Exactly.
They often paid in cash, closedquickly.
It was hard to compete.
Atlanta is a key example.
Again, investors bought upthousands of homes there in just
one year.
Wow, all that buying activitydefinitely pushed up prices and
just sucked up the inventory ofaffordable homes that might have
otherwise gone to familieslooking to own.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
So the very people
who might have hoped to escape
renting and buy a place were nowfacing well a double whammy
Higher prices to buy and maybe atougher situation if they were
renting from one of these largelandlords.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Precisely, and the
sources suggest this could
actually trap people in renting.
How so?
Well, think about it.
If you're living in a placewith constant maintenance issues
that aren't getting fixedproperly, maybe it costs you
money indirectly or just drainsyour resources.
Dealing with it.
Hard to say.
For a down payment, then Right.
Plus, if you end up in disputesover repairs or these
(08:35):
unexpected fees we talked about,that could potentially hurt
your credit score.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Making it harder to
even qualify for a mortgage down
the road.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Exactly so you might
have these neighborhoods that
look okay, on the outside lawnsare mowed, maybe, but inside the
houses you could have ongoingdisrepair and residents feeling
kind of powerless.
It really puts a roadblock upagainst building wealth through
homeownership for a lot ofpeople.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
That's a really stark
contrast the neat exterior
hiding potential problems andthis feeling of being stuck.
Now didn't the federalgovernment pull back some
support eventually?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yes, they did phase
out some of the initial programs
.
Fannie Mae stops backing someof these deals in 2018, for
instance.
But that didn't just end thiswhole model, did it?
No, not at all.
The sources indicate the impactcontinues.
These institutional landlordsare still very much active.
They've adapted, some are evenmoving into build to rent now.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Building new houses
specifically to rent out.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
That's right.
Constructing entire communitiesof single-family homes intended
purely for the rental marketfrom day one.
It suggests this model isbecoming even more embedded in
the housing system.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
So it wasn't just a
temporary fix after the crisis.
It's become a permanent feature, potentially crowding out
homeownership for the middleclass even more.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
That's certainly the
concern raised in the materials
we looked at.
It points towards a longer-termshift.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Okay.
So if we boil it all down,synthesizing these, reports and
analyses.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
What's the main
conclusion?
What's the central argumenthere?
Well, I think the core argumentis that this initiative, which
started with arguably goodintentions, stabilized the
market right.
It inadvertently kind ofturbocharged a new model for
housing.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
A model where
investor returns became
paramount.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Exactly A model where
the need to deliver consistent,
maximized returns toshareholders can, and seemingly
often does, overshadow the basicneeds and well-being of the
people actually living in thehomes.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
So maybe some
short-term stabilization after
the crisis, perhaps.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
But the longer-term
consequences that seem to emerge
are things like rising rentburdens, potentially weaker
protections for tenants inpractice and communities dealing
with these nagging repairissues and, for some, the
constant stress of potentialeviction over fees or small
debts.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
And going back to the
Valentins, their story ended
with them eventually managing tobuy their own place right,
which kind of highlights theirdrive to get out of that rental
situation drive to get out ofthat rental situation it does.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
It really underscores
the struggle and the desire for
the stability and autonomy thathomeownership traditionally
represents.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Which brings us right
back to that really fundamental
question posed in the sourcematerial Are houses, financial
commodities, first and foremostAssets to be traded, or are they
, you know, the foundation forfamilies, for communities?
Speaker 2 (11:21):
That's the absolute
core tension, isn't it?
And with these largeinstitutional players becoming
such a significant force, how weas a society navigate that
tension, how we answer thatquestion, it's going to shape
housing for generations.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
So just to recap this
deep dive, then we started with
the hope, the promise.
After 2008, wall Streetstepping in, professionalizing
single family rentals.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Right, the initial
optimism.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
But we've dug into
the reality reported by many
renders the cost cutting thefees the impact on their lives
and on the broader housingmarket itself, a system where
profit motives often seem toclash with residents needs.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Yeah, a real
divergence between the promise
and the reported experience formany.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
And that really
leaves us, and you listening,
with a big question to thinkabout.
Building on what our sourcessuggest, what responsibility do
we have collectively to makesure housing works as more than
just a financial asset, that itfulfills that fundamental human
need for stability and shelter?
Speaker 2 (12:17):
And maybe also what
are the potential long-term
shifts in society If this trend,this institutional ownership
model, keeps growing?
What does that future look like?
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Definitely some
important things to consider as
you look around your owncommunity, your own housing
situation.
That brings us to the end ofthis particular deep dive.