Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Deep
Dive.
Today we're venturing into theworld of luxury real estate
Shiny buildings, big money.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Yeah, but we're not
really looking at the glamour
today, are we?
Speaker 1 (00:11):
No, exactly, we're
looking underneath that surface.
We're exploring those timeswhen these really high value
deals the ones that look solidas a rock, were actually well
built on pretty shaky ground.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Leading to some
spectacular collapses really
headline-grabbing stuff.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Totally.
We've gathered some stories,quite a few accounts of major
scandals, big financial failuresin the high-end property market
, mostly from the last, say, 20years or so.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
And the goal, our
mission for this deep dive.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
It's really to pull
out the key lessons.
Isn't it About being smart withmoney, about the dangers of
just believing the hype and,crucially, why doing your
homework?
That due diligence is so vitalwhen big sums are involved?
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Especially in real
estate, which people often see,
as you know, safe, tangible.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Right, but as these
stories show that perceived
stability can vanish incrediblyquickly, okay, let's get into it
.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
What's really
striking, I think, across these
different cases, is this pattern.
It's like a constructed realitywas built up each time.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
How do you?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
mean Well, these
weren't just market downturns or
bad luck.
Often someone deliberatelycreated a narrative, a story
that kind of papered over somereally fundamental problems, so
the perceived value got way, wayout of line with the actual
business or the assetsunderneath.
A big disconnect.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Like WeWork, that
seems like a classic example.
Adam Neumann, the founder, yeah, very charismatic.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Oh, definitely.
And he wasn't just sellingoffice space, remember.
It was sold as a revolution,community technology, the future
of work, that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
And people bought it
big time.
Investors poured technology,the future of work, that kind of
thing, and people bought it bigtime.
Investors poured in what?
Speaker 2 (01:47):
something like 10
billion dollars just from
softbank yeah around that, andthe valuation at its peak hit an
incredible 47 billion dollars47 billion.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
But and this is the
kicker the company never
actually made a profit, neverthat's the core issue, and it
really flags up a lesson,doesn't it?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
You've got to be
careful when this amazing story
and this like magnetic leaderseem to overshadow the basic
financial health of the business.
I mean WeWork's actual businessmodel renting office space,
fixing it up, subletting it.
It wasn't exactlygroundbreaking.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
No, Pretty standard
really.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
The revolution was
mostly marketing spin, the vibe,
the perceived culture.
So the insight isn't just hypeis bad, obviously, but more like
be really skeptical ofvaluations that are just miles
higher than competitors,especially if there isn't a
clear, profitable business modelto back it up.
You need to look for solidnumbers, not just the big vision
.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
And Neumann's
personal spending didn't help
the image did it.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
No, that certainly
raised some flags later on.
We're talking what?
Over $90 million on luxuryhomes.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Yeah, private jet
travel, even trying to trademark
the word we.
It all built this persona.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
But when they tried
to go public, tried for that IPO
in 2019.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
It all came crashing
down fast.
Problems inside the company thefinancial management wasn't
there.
Fast Problems inside thecompany the financial management
wasn't there.
Neumann's own behavior, yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
It all contributed
Yep.
The IPO collapsed and theneventually we were filed for
bankruptcy November 2023.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
But Neumann himself
walked away with a pretty
substantial package, didn't he?
Reports were initially around$1.7 billion, though I think it
got reduced.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
It's still a huge
amount and he's already on to
new ventures.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Right, it's easy to
say red flag.
Now, looking back at thespending, yeah, but at the time
should there have been strongerchecks, better governance maybe.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
That's a really
important point.
It definitely highlights theneed for robust governance,
proper oversight, especially inthese super fast growing, high
valuation private companies.
You need that balance rightBetween the visionary leader and
just sensible financial control.
The WeWork story really makesyou ask what checks and balances
do we actually need to stopthat kind of disconnect from
(03:54):
happening again?
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Okay, let's switch
gears from techie office spaces
to something on a totallydifferent scale China,
evergrande.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Ah yes, the giant
Evergrande.
Ah yes, the giant Evergranderose up during China's huge
property boom, became a massivedeveloper.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Massive is right, but
they ended up owing Just
staggering amounts over $300billion in liabilities.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Making them the
world's most indebted property
developer and liabilities, justso everyone's clear.
That's basically all the moneythey owed Debts payments due,
that kind of thing $300 billion.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
How did it get that
big?
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Well, their whole
business model was pretty
aggressive.
They relied massively onselling apartments before they
were even built pre-sales.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Okay, so they got
cash up front.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Exactly, which fueled
incredibly rapid growth, but it
also meant they were hugelydependent on borrowing more and
more money constantly to keepbuilding and to pay off the old
debts.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
House of cards almost
.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
It's a very high
stakes game.
Great when everything's boomingand sales keep rolling in.
When everything's booming andsales keep rolling in, but if
the market slows or buildingcosts go up, suddenly you can
run out of cash very quickly.
You're obligated to build thesehomes you've already sold.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
And that's what
happened, right, the
consequences were severe.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Yeah, Construction
just stopped on loads of
projects.
You had people ordinaryhomebuyers stuck paying
mortgages on apartments thatwere just concrete skeletons.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Terrible.
I remember seeing imagesprotests.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Understandably, huge
public anger and eventually even
the Chinese government, whichhad kind of let them grow so big
, stepped in and startedinvestigating the company, the
management, so connecting thisback Evergrande really shows the
risks of that super fastdebt-heavy expansion.
Absolutely, and not just therisks to the company itself, but
(05:37):
because these financial systemsare so interconnected globally.
A collapse like Evergrandesends ripples everywhere.
International markets feel ittoo.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
It's interesting,
isn't it?
We work Evergrande, differentplaces, different sectors, but a
similar theme this drive formassive growth fueled by huge
amounts of money, maybe withoutenough focus on the underlying
strength.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
It does seem to be a
recurring pattern and the final
blow for Evergrande, for nowanyway, was that liquidation
order from a Hong Kong court,January 2024.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
And the fallout
continues for China's economy
and globally.
A real wake-up call about howlinked everything is.
Okay, let's move to a storythat sounds more like I don't
know a crime novel.
Nick Patel First FarmersFinancial.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Yeah, this one's
often called the Theranos of
real estate, because it was justoutright fraud, a complete
fabrication.
Patel claimed his company wasdealing in these
government-backed loans, usdaloans.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Okay, guaranteed by
the US Department of Agriculture
, sounds safe.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Exactly, but the
reality it was all fake.
He created totally bogus loanportfolios and used them as
collateral to get funding frominvestors.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Wow, so just made it
all up.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Pretty much Pure
deception.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
And the money he got.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
He didn't go into
farming loans, I'm guessing.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Not exactly.
No, it went into luxury hotels,condos in Miami, ferraris,
private jets, all the trappingsfunded entirely by fraud.
Unbelievable.
But he got caught, oh yes,apprehended, convicted, got a
25-year prison sentence back in2018.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
And the investors.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
They lost huge
amounts.
Around $179 million went up insmoke, and some of that was
government-backed money too.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Ouch, so the lesson
here is pretty stark, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Absolutely Verify
everything.
Do your homework, really diginto the claims, the people, the
companies you're giving moneyto, especially when it sounds
too good to be true.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Because sometimes it
is.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Yeah, patel was
deliberate fraud, but you know
the next story.
The World Islands shows adifferent risk how even big,
ambitious projects can getsideswiped by bigger economic
forces.
Both situations, though, reallyhammer home the need for
careful checking.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
OK, so let's talk
about Dubai's World Islands.
This was, I mean, incrediblyambitious.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Rift-takingly
ambitious.
Yeah, the idea was to buildhundreds of man-made islands
offshore, shaped like a map ofthe world.
Wow Marketed as thisultra-exclusive playground for
billionaires.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
And during Dubai's
big boon years, these islands
were selling for crazy money.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Ralph Astronomical
prices Tens of millions of
dollars for a single island.
The vision was just immensetotal confidence.
But then Then the 2008 globalfinancial crash happened and it
just pulled the rug out fromunder speculative luxury
projects like this.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
So the money dried up
.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Completely.
Investors pulled out,construction just stopped.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
And what's the
situation now?
Are they built?
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Populated.
Well, the islands arephysically there mostly, but a
vast majority are still empty,undeveloped sandbanks.
Basically, there's been a tinybit of development.
Lebanon Island is open.
Parts of the Europe sectionhave some villas.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
But mostly empty.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Mostly empty.
A lot are owned by shellcompanies.
Now the future is reallyuncertain.
It went from being this symbolof, you know, limitless
possibility to more of acautionary tale about overreach,
about how quickly investor moodcan change.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Yeah, it really shows
how even these massive physical
real estate projects arevulnerable to those big economic
waves, doesn't it?
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Definitely you have
to think about the macro picture
, not just the specific project.
Investor sentiment can shift sofast.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Okay, which brings us
to our last case.
This one is maybe the biggest,the most complex.
The 1MDB scandal Show low.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Yeah, 1mdb is huge.
This wasn't just a real estatescandal, it was massive
international financial crimeAbout $4.5 billion stolen from a
Malaysian state investment fund$4.5 billion.
Stolen.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Stolen, but luxury
real estate played a really key
role in what happened next.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
How so?
So Joe Lowe, who was central tothe whole thing, used super
high-end property as a primaryway to launder that stolen money
.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Ah okay, Cleaning the
dirty money.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Exactly Buying up
penthouses in London, Manhattan
mansions in Beverly Hills, Big,expensive tangible assets, Also
yachts, private jets, art.
He even funded the movie theWolf of Wall Street with about
$100 million of the stolen cash.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Incredible the sheer
audacity.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
It is Now.
The US Justice Department hasclawed back most of those assets
, confiscated them.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
But Joy Ho himself.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Still a fugitive
vanished and the scandal
absolutely rocked Malaysianpolitics.
Huge fallout there.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
And what does it tell
us about real estate in this
context?
Speaker 2 (10:16):
It starkly shows how
easily super prime, high value
real estate can be used in thesebig international money
laundering schemes.
It just screams for moretransparency, doesn't it?
Better checks in thesemulti-million dollar property
deals.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
Yeah, who is buying
this penthouse?
Where did the money really comefrom?
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Exactly.
And again it shows theconnections global finance,
crime, politics and high endproperty all tangled up.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
So, as we look back
at all these stories, wework,
evergrande, battelle, the WorldIslands, 1mdb quite a range of
disasters really.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
They are diverse, but
you start to see common threads
, don't you?
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Definitely, there are
always these grand promises
right, Disruption, innovation,amazing returns.
Often built on let Disruption,innovation, amazing returns.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Often built on, let's
be honest, pretty dubious
foundations Questionablepractices, huge hidden risks.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
And real estate
itself.
Yeah, it keeps popping up as away to hide money, sometimes
just to show off wealth, fuelthe ego.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Yeah, it serves
multiple purposes in these
scenarios and the victims?
It's depressingly similar eachtime.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Who ends up holding
the bag?
Speaker 2 (11:21):
It's often ordinary
investors, maybe pension funds
who invested, sometimesgovernments, the little guy,
relatively speaking.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Well, the architects,
the main players.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
They often seem to
walk away, if not totally free,
then still incredibly wealthy.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Which really just
hammers home how vital
transparency and realaccountability are.
We need them to prevent thesekinds of things.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
There needs to be
more questioning, maybe More
scrutiny from investors,regulators, the public.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Yeah.
So what's the big picture here?
What ties all this together forus?
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Well, if you boil it
down, I think these examples are
powerful warnings thatglamorous, seemingly solid world
of luxury real estate.
It can hide enormous risks.
It can even hide outright fraudwhen the image, the hype,
becomes more important than theactual substance, the actual
value.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Right Image over
substance.
So for you listening, thereally crucial takeaway here has
to be the need for criticalthinking, for rigorous due
diligence.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Absolutely,
especially in areas like luxury
property, where things can lookso dazzling on the surface.
Don't just be impressed by theglossy presentation.
You have to dig deeper.
Question the fundamentals.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
So maybe a final
thought for you to chew on.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Yeah, thinking about
these cases, we've discussed
what might be some of the lessobvious warning signs, the
subtle red flags to watch outfor in any big investment, not
just real estate.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
And maybe how can you
as an individual get better at
protecting yourself from thesekinds of illusions of grandeur?
Something to think about.