May 7, 2024 • 52 mins
Imagine the weight of society's gaze compelling children to forfeit their innocence before their time. Joined by Maiya and Nadege, we grapple with the realities of adultification bias and its impact on black children's right to a carefree youth. Through personal narratives and a mother's fierce advocacy, we uncover the discrepancies in how black youth are perceived and treated compared to their peers. We confront the systemic pressures that force premature maturity, hindering natural mental and emotional growth and explore how environmental factors can shape physical development and societal perceptions.
Host KC Carnage (@iamkccarnage), Maiya Sykes (@maiyasykes) , and Nadege Ndjebayi (@nadege_ndkebayi)
Daz It Daz All is written by KC Carnage (@iamkccarnage) and Produced by KC Carnage and Rick Barrio Dill (@rickbarriodill). Associate producer Bri Coorey (@bri_beats), Audio and Video Engineering and Studio facilities provided by S.L.A.P. Studios LA (@SLAPStudiosLA) with distribution through our collective for social progress and cultural expression, SLAP the Network. (@SLAPtheNetwork.com)
If you have any ideas for a show you want to see or hear, email us at info@SLAPtheNetwork.com and as always, you can go to dazitdazall.com and sign up there to make sure you never miss a thing...
See you next show!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
three cheers for Beyonce and everything that she
does, but she still had adiamond sparkly thong on and had
to do that.
Even in this day and age, shecannot be a woman who at some
point does not be in a diamondsparkly thong, and even she is
victim of this, her counterpartAdele, who can go in a full
(00:21):
length actamundo and just singthere.
Isn't that wild?
Isn't that wild?
We are still in an era wheremost women of color received
their wealth from hypersexualization of themselves.
That's it, that's all.
That's it, that's all.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Black excellence at its finest.
How that skin glows, she's atrue diamond, with the world
right out back.
She's still smiling.
Never left that crown till shestays thriving.
That's it, that's all.
That's it, that's all.
That's it.
(01:01):
That's all, that's it, that'sall.
Is that really it, though?
What up, what up, what up?
Welcome to that's it.
That's it, that's all, that'sit, that's all.
Is that really it, though?
What up, what up, what up,welcome to.
That's it, that's All, y'all.
I'm your host, kasey.
Today we got Maya on the showand Nadege Hi, and today we're
gonna.
This is actually a part threeepisode through Slap, the
Network, on adultification biasthrough black children.
(01:23):
We felt it was necessary tokeep the discussion going
because clearly it's still superprevalent, it's still happening
and we want our kids to be kidsand be able to develop in the
way they should be developingand not push faster than they
have to be.
So let's just jump right intoit.
Let's just say cheers y'all,cheers, salud.
I can't reach you, the judge,but you know how that works.
(01:44):
I'm going to be the bridge.
Be the bridge, trouble waters,honey.
Before we jump into it, forthose who don't know what
adultification is, I would liketo read you guys the definition,
so you guys are aware of whatit is.
Adultification bias is a formof racial prejudice where
children of minority groups,typically black children, are
(02:04):
treated by adults as being moremature than they actually are.
So let's just jump right intoit.
Let's hear some of yourthoughts about adultification,
and has it actually directlyaffected you at any point of
your life?
I think it's destroying.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
It's destroying and it's killing our children.
It's destroying and it'skilling our children, right?
And it's destroying ourdevelopmental stages as kids,
right, we all go throughdevelopmental stages.
When you make a child an adultbefore they're ready, you mess
with their brain chemistrybecause they're not going
through those developmentalstages in an appropriate way.
They're not getting to explore,they're not getting to develop
(02:43):
their defenses, develop theirthinking, develop their problem
solving in a way that isspecific to children.
They're developing it in a waythat is expected of them as an
adult.
So it impacts us for the restof our lives.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
And it also impacts.
If you don't have the tools toknow how to navigate through
these waters, then theexpectation of you suddenly,
because you're of a certain age,but at this age you're a larger
size than your non-blackcounterparts, so you therefore
should automatically be giventhe key to how to navigate.
(03:19):
This is a lot to put onsomebody who's 10.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
What do you mean by larger sizes?
This is a lot to put onsomebody who's 10.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Well, what do you mean?
What do you mean by largersizes?
Like, as well as we geneticsare still genetics.
Okay, you brought black peoplehere on boats and only the
strongest of us survived.
We tend to be a little largerin size, a little larger in size
, a little larger in stature,right, and we tend to develop,
(03:48):
you know, a little more rapidlybecause of this, because you
brought people here and only thestrongest of them survived, so
you made super people.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Pretty much, pretty much.
You know I'm not going to godown this rabbit hole, but
systemically also.
Look at the food deserts, lookat what foods we're eating.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Right.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Look at the water quality.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Look at what foods are available and what foods are
encouraged.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
So we have significantly more hormones in
our bodies.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
So we absolutely, absolutely.
I agree with that because, likeI was telling a story about,
like I was living in once andthe first month my intestines
was fucked up.
It was bad and I really thoughtit was something that I was
eating there.
I really honestly thought itwas something eating there.
And I went to the doctor and,as the day progresses and what
(04:42):
was happening, it was just likemy body was releasing all the
hormones in American food, allthe preservatives in American
food, because over there theymake everything fresh, they wake
up in the morning, they'rechurning their spices, they're
going, they're cutting fresh,like they do it every morning.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
It was the reason why I told you, because I had done
the job.
If you are a singer, you'vedone in any capacity.
You've done this ShanghaiBeijing, trying to freaking,
drop so and learning to survive.
It's kind of a weird situationbecause the air quality alone
you're like what?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
People are blowing smoke in your throat as you're
hitting the highest note youcould possibly have and there's
like an air quality like indexthat you have to watch to be
able to go outside.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
It's real deep.
So the one thing that I toldyou, I was like that's the
reason why the tea is expensive.
Go and get the price of yourtea.
And you were like really, and Isaid get the price of your tea.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Did it work?
It worked, she saved my life.
She gave me this little pack ofpowder.
Saved my life.
But going back to the actualtopic, when you're talking about
developmental stage and you'retalking about how we are bigger,
the over-sexualization of blackchildren, especially black
girls, you know going into, likeyou know because they may look
(05:52):
like a woman.
They may have the features as agrown woman.
They're still 10 years old.
They're still 11 years old.
So and when?
Speaker 3 (05:55):
you, when you are developing as a sexual being?
Right, there's stages, right,that starts fairly early, right?
So when you're, when you, whenyou are going up to a 10 year
old black girl and telling her,you know, you act and grow, and
you being fast, you're doing allthese things.
She's not, she doesn'tconceptually understand what
you're saying, but what you'redoing is you're introducing
these things into her spacebefore she even has the ability
(06:19):
to get developmentally to aspace where she can actually
conceptually understand that andthe way that she's being
approached in the world.
And so, instead of healthilydeveloping her sexuality or
healthily developing her toolsto manage people around her,
sexuality, she's forced toalready know.
So then what's happening is isthat she's creating what she
thinks is the appropriate way ofbeing, and what she thinks is
(06:43):
how you manage men or how youmanage women or how you manage
people.
She's developing, she'screating ways on how you manage
spaces, and what we see is whereshe's getting that information
TV, what you're saying to her,how people are treating her, and
she's not getting to developthat healthily in a safe space.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
And let's keep it a buck.
We're still in an era and thisis not to downplay these women
at all, because I think thatthey are all fabulous, but we
are still in an era where mostwomen of color received their
wealth from hyper-sexualizationof themselves.
And that's that, like I don't,you know what I mean.
(07:25):
Three cheers for Beyonce andeverything that she does, but
she still had a diamond sparklythong on and had to do that.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
But here's the thing with Beyonce.
I'm going to take Beyonce outof that because Beyonce going in
Destiny's Child, those wereappropriate outfits she
developed.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
No, but I'm saying even in this day and age she
cannot be a woman who at somepoint does not be in a diamond
sparkly thong.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
And even she is victim of this, absolutely
Because you got, you know hercounterpart, adele, who can go
in a full length A gown.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Exactamundo and just sit there, and isn't that wild,
isn't that wild?
Speaker 2 (08:03):
And a full length.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
No butt, no titties, all the grammys and all the
things and the thing, butbeyonce gotta still shake it for
dollars and you still won'tgive her and you still won't
give her the grammy.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
It seems a little rude, right so and and I think
the thing is, is that like when,if you can develop healthily to
get to that point, it'sempowering, right?
And that's where we getconfused.
It's very empowering if you getto develop healthily or you
develop a healthy relationshipwith your sexuality, with your
body, with whatever right.
That's empowering.
If you don't, that's dangerous.
Well, let's talk about this too.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Segueing to this.
So they talk aboutadultification is what happens
on the outside.
When I was reading a lot moreon this topic, they talked about
parent.
What did I say?
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Parentification right , where it happens in the home,
whether it's a divorced parentor it's a single mom right, and
they're usually the oldest blackfemale child.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
So what we call it is a parentified child right Now.
Parentified child that happensacross the board right In a very
specific way, but it is.
It is very it can be verydamaging to the way in which you
relate in relationships.
Right, because you don't get tobe a child but you're
responsible, you're emotionallyresponsible for adults, but you
(09:19):
don't have the developmentalskills to be that available.
And so then when you become anadult which is what I see a lot
with my clients is that then youhave a lot of like, and what do
you do?
Speaker 1 (09:34):
I was going to say can we talk about that a bit?
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (09:35):
what do you do?
I'm a psychotherapist.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Hey y'all, and not just any psychotherapist.
Can we talk a bit about thespecifications of your practice,
because I think it's reallyfascinating very different for
different clinicians.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Right, I'm more.
I use my body in my practice,where there's a lot of somatic
therapists who use their use theclient's body whereas I, my
(10:09):
body informs me on how to workwith you and I address what's
happening in your body as well.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Now I, just as a person who has a lot of respect
for holistic practice andWestern practice, I am seeing
this great marriage that'shappening lately of even if
we're introducing medications,it's a yes, and it's not just
we're medicating and good luck.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Well, because people are knowed up.
Now People are gettingknowledgeable.
It's just like you can givesomebody a medication for
something.
There's also a direct root or adirect herb or a direct
synthesize.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
You know, like it's from a root, everything,
everything you know.
Greatness happens in balance.
I think in a lot of times wewere leaning to Western right
Like an overcorrection yeah.
And we were just like OK, youknow, it was like it was like
(11:09):
all, if I, you know, stick arock up my ass, my hair will
stop falling out.
Not gonna work right, but maybeif I connect back with nature
and get all of these chemicalsout of my body, my hair will
grow back right, like it's.
Like there's, but there's abalance.
We went all the way left on oneend and then all of a sudden,
everybody went all the way rightand everybody was like I'm, I'm
just going to eat grass forevernow, and then people were
getting sick.
And now we're finding thisplace where we're coming back to
center, where it's like youneed a good balance of both, and
(11:30):
that is different for everysingle person, and the work is
finding the balance for you.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Well, they talk about , like even in the
adultification process, themistrust in health care
providers, like I know a lot ofblack people that don't go to
doctors, like they just won't doit.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Ok, listen, I can attest to that because I have an
autoimmune disease calledHashimoto's and when I first
started experiencing thesymptoms of what it was, my hair
started falling out.
I was having neuropathy in myhands and feet.
I was having really a hard timestanding for any period past
(12:07):
like maybe 20 minutes I had tosit down.
I had chronic fatigue all ofthe time and in like a two-month
period I put on like 35 poundsand I wasn't doing anything
differently.
So I cut out wheat, alcohol,sugar.
I maybe lost like five pounds,but I still my feet would swell
uncontrollably.
And I was going to all of thesedoctors.
I had a food journal.
(12:28):
I was writing down my symptoms,what I was doing.
I went to seven differentdoctors before I was diagnosed
with Hashimoto's and three ofthem prescribed me
antidepressants.
Three of them suggested that Iwas lying.
One said well, if you're doingeverything that you say you're
doing then, and I was just like,why would I come in with an
(12:51):
entire journal that I've beenkeeping for the last two and a
half months saying this is whatI've been eating, this is what
I've been finding, this is whatI?
Why would I be saying that?
To lie to you.
But I realized that A because Ithink these things are
indicative of a larger problemto come.
Nobody would listen to me untilI finally paid out of network
(13:36):
$600 to some specialist, andthat's the only time that person
ever answered my queries, askedme questions that were relative
to me, and that's when we foundmy diagnosis.
But it took seven tries.
So I can't even be mad at peopleof color when they're like,
yeah, I don't trust doctors, Iwouldn't either, and I had
(13:59):
pretty decent insurance and Iwas paying.
It's not like you know.
I was going to and I'm not evendisparaging people that are
going to free clinics like thosepeople must have such a hard
road.
But I was going to this out ofnetwork, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah and paying themoney and going online, and I
was still treated like a damncriminal for saying this is
(14:21):
what's happening with my body,and I've looked it up and it
seems like it might be thesethings.
May I be tested for them?
What are your thoughts?
Everybody's like there's no wayyou have this.
It was so dismissive and socondescending and when I started
going down the rabbit hole, Istarted meeting so many women of
color, not just in the UnitedStates, but in the UK, in
(14:44):
Australia, that were havingsimilar experiences about health
care.
This is when I looked up whatadultification means, because I
think that this is happening towomen of color globally and I
think that it's a call to it's acrisis?
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Well, it's, it's.
I'm going to get on my soapboxreal quick.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Girl do it.
That's why we got microphones.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
I actually wrote my grad school thesis on something
similar.
Um, there's a history, there'sa reason, there's a history
behind this right and not to bethat guy, but if we go back to
slavery, um, if you ever havethe chance to read dr joy
degru's book, um my hero, oh,and I got to meet her when I
graduated.
I cried oh, my god, I love herso much, I, I love you so much.
(15:24):
But in her bookIntergenerational Slave Trauma,
she speaks about the developmentof gynecology which was this
piece of shit?
dude was basically abusing blackwomen to figure out our
reproductive organs and in hiswriting, systemically, he was
being given carte blanche tothese women.
(15:44):
Yeah, and in his writing, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Systemically, he was being given carte blanche.
Oh yeah yeah.
And there was no sedatives.
There was no medication.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
There was no nothing.
And what in his writings whathe said was is to justify his
action is that black women havehigher pain tolerance but we're
more hysterical.
I'm not going to go into it,but that has been proven through
research that in the medicalsystem that people still believe
that and it is taught.
It was taught.
It was taught up until recently, not only is it taught recently
(16:13):
?
Speaker 1 (16:14):
okay, my university celebrates him as the father of
gynecology, so in Yale I'm goingto put Yale on blast right now.
But at the Yale Medical School,this man's photo is huge.
His beginning of surgical toolsare on display.
The women that he operated onare not described by their name.
(16:40):
They're described by subjectnumber and their pictures are in
display through this hall andyou have to go there and get an
education and see that and it'sso traumatizing absolutely, and
the fact that it's still.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
It's still.
You know, as somebody who alsohas an autoimmune disease.
I have endometriosis and I hadthe same experience.
It wasn't until I fully leanedinto the stereotype and started
cussing motherfuckers out.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
That anybody helped, that people started listening to
me.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
And the crazy part about it is that you leaned into
a stereotype that was placedbecause they always give us a
reason to be there.
Exactly, they always give us areason.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
It's a snake eating its tail Right.
So if we're we're, we are seenas hysterical, we're seen as
aggressive, we're seen as angry.
Right, we're seen as havinghigher pain tolerance.
And so when you show up Rightand so imagine that as a child,
as I was diagnosed, I was verylucky.
My gynecologist was my mother'sdoctor and so she listened to
(17:38):
me.
But when I went to otherdoctors, I was 14 when I got
diagnosed with endometriosis.
They prescribed me withOxycontin oh my God and
Percocets at 14.
Could you imagine if my parentsdidn't have the way with them.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Were your doctors white or black, white, okay, and
I think that I just I mean, Idon't know about you, but this
just makes me cry and I feellike it's almost an ancestral
pain, like I'm crying for all ofthe women, like because I
remember going when I was incollege, seeing that whenever as
I had a job at the med schooland I would have to go through
(18:16):
this particular hall to deliverreports for the person I was
working for, and I just rememberseeing that every day and I
remember reading a study aboutit and they were like, well,
there's in the last blah, blah,blah years and they pointed to
people like Cornel West andHenry Louis Gates and Kathy
Cohen who pointed out like howracist this was and whatever,
(18:42):
and there's still this beliefthat it was still a justified
means to an end.
So I'm like how do we even talkabout an adultification bias
when you still believe that thisis a justified means to an end?
And I'd even be willing toaccept that if there was an
apology or an acknowledgement ofWell, there's not going to be
(19:03):
an apology, because they wouldhave to acknowledge what they
did and they'd have toacknowledge those people and if
they acknowledge it.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
That means they have to technically rewrite history
and rewrite the actual truth,because they're not going to do
that, I'm telling you they have,like.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
I mean, if I'm wrong, I think they did a study on
like something like 130something women I don't remember
In the library, right, becauseyou have to go past this hall
and I don't know if it's ondisplay at the Yale Medical
School anymore.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
Oh, he did yes.
Oh, I call bullshit.
He probably did it on hundredsand hundreds of women.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Okay, those are the women he recorded.
Yes, but even those women,there are pictures of them, oh
yeah, and there's no record oftheir names, of course, anywhere
.
So it would say subject 37.
Yeah, some one of the mostfamous Distended uterus, and
(20:01):
then list so, but they wouldhave this woman's picture
Extended uterus and then list so, but they would have this
woman's picture, and you knowthat she showed up in the best
outfit that she had, hoping thatthis man was going to help her,
because many of the things thathe was studying is at the time
when women would become pregnant.
They would become incontinentbecause of the medical procedure
(20:24):
that was done at the time.
So a lot of these women came inbecause they could no longer
work, because they were nowincontinent.
And these women were coming infor their help and rather than
saying this woman's name isSadie or whatever, subject 37.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
And I would almost say that the women who came in
well-dressed were the ones whoprobably got treated the best.
Because he was, he was doingtests on his, on slaves.
Yeah, one of the most famouspicture, and I it's burned into
my mind.
I can.
I, if I could draw, I coulddraw it for you.
And it's a.
It's a woman.
She has a rapa on her head, shehas a like a dark skirt with
(21:02):
like a little bit of a like alike an apron, and she's sitting
on her knees on top of thetable and it's just these white
men around.
That shit is burned into mymind.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Subject 52.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
And I remember I was doing research on endometriosis
because I wasn't getting help, Iwas suffering, I was whatever.
And that's when I went down therabbit hole and I saw that.
I remember I was sick to mystomach and that image is burnt,
it's obviously burned into mymind.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Now, mind you, they have these images.
Okay, so you're talking aboutadultification in younger
children.
You're in college, what are youlike?
18, 17?
Speaker 1 (21:41):
And the fact that they would even have something
like that displayed is stilllike you're not even, but there
was so much of that in college,but at every college.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Yeah, I consider myself still a child in college
and listen 95% of the time.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
let's be clear we are the only ones who know the
story.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
They don't know.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
So when we're walking by crying or angry face, red,
nauseous, and people are likewhat's wrong with you?
And you're like get the fuckout of my face.
They don't know why you have anattitude.
They don't realize that you'rewatching somebody who tortured
people who look like you beingglorified.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
They don't even know that history because they looked
at you as a lab rat, right, andthey still do so.
When you have any idea oryou've had any wherewithD at
your symptoms and say these arethe seven symptoms I have.
(22:42):
I've looked and the researchpoints to these five things, how
dare you?
Speaker 3 (22:48):
How dare you think you know more than me?
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Well, here's the thing.
Now we have to circle back tothe school systems and
educational systems, right?
So I remember there was thetown hall you're in a suburb,
you're in a township and theywere going back and forth about
whether they should get uniformsright and the reason why they
was getting uniforms because itwas a lot of black children,
black girls, specifically beingsent home because their skirt
(23:12):
was a little bit shorter orwhatever the case may be.
So all the black parents werelike, okay, let's rectify it,
let's get uniforms.
Do you know, most of the whiteparents, most of the white
parents, they voted against it.
They was like, well, that'sgoing to take care, that's going
to get rid of our children'sindividuality and stuff like
(23:33):
that.
And whole time it's like, well,we're trying to rectify the
situation that does not pertainto you, because your daughter,
miss molly, is over here prettymuch ta-tas, pointed crock and
trying to doing the same stuffthat we're doing and doing the
same thing watching the same rapscene that we're doing and the
development of, like you saidabout the black body is just,
you know, just how we aredeveloping, how genetics are.
(23:56):
It was looked at like why, whyis why?
Is this girl upset?
Um, is it acceptable for her towear this and her not worth it?
Let's just rectify the wholesituation.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Put everybody in uniforms and no yeah, of course
not because they don't recognizethe experience.
I have a.
I have a quick story.
It's.
It's not, it wasn't about mybody, but I was a bit of a
problem child in school.
I was a little rowdy, a littlebit I mean you're still right.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
You're still right.
You're still routing the dead.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
I am um, I don't have a math brain at all and my
father is a, an engineermathematician, like full math
brain, and I was failing mathconstantly.
And I was in middle school andmommy forgive me for telling
this story um and I, I got an aon my math test and I was
(24:48):
fucking stoked.
You understand me.
I was in class, just happy,just like just happyo, whoo,
whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, justhappy, got the A.
The little white boy sittingnext to me gave me some Skittles
.
I ate some Skittles, proudyexcited, having the best day of
my life.
You understand me, I'm about tomake my father proud.
Like I was in there.
I went home, I was taking aluxurious bubble bath, mommy,
(25:12):
forgive me.
My mother came in there andwhooped my ass in the bathtub.
I didn't even know what I wasgetting whooped for, I was
getting fucked up and all of asudden she goes how dare you get
drunk in school?
My excitement translated to myteacher that I was drunk.
Oh no, I'm getting emotionalthinking about it.
(25:38):
I actually confronted him andhe profusely apologized as an
adult.
I confronted him but I got thewhooping of my life.
I didn't even know what I wasgetting whooped for.
You know, and that's the thing,because I was excited for
getting an A, but they thought Iwas drunk.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
But here's the thing.
That's crazy, but here's thething.
Some experience like thathappened to your mom in a
different way.
Absolutely, and it was muchmore punitive to her.
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
So in her mind.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
What she was doing was protecting you Absolutely.
She was horrified.
What she was doing wasconditioning you Absolutely.
She was horrified.
What she was doing wasconditioning you.
And I'm so thankful for mymother because my mother had
that experience and did not passit on to me and worked very
(26:31):
tirelessly.
Because I'll tell you a storyright.
So I was in the eighth gradeand I went to the same school
from seventh to twelfth grade.
I went to a very ritzy privateschool where rich people send
their children and movie starssend their children.
So I was waiting to be pickedup after school and the kids
(26:53):
around me, all white, got aphoto cleaner and they were
huffing it and their responseswere hilarious.
So I'm sitting there laughingand they're like do you want to
huff that?
And I'm like hell, no, I don'tknow what the hell that is,
Because she be black and wedon't know about huff, that's
not anything that we do, we'renot doing that we know cognac,
(27:15):
Hennessy weed, you know, classic, that's not it.
That's it, that's not it, butI'm sitting there being, you
know, thoroughly entertainedwhile eating a Starburst
whatever.
The security guard comes uprounds us all up, calls our
parents, calls my mother andeverybody's parents, and they're
(27:35):
like and.
And my mother says okay, firstof all, you owe me um the cab
fare that I spent to get here,you owe me retroactive um
tuition and you owe my daughteran apology.
Did you look at all of thesechildren?
And then did you look at mychild?
Did you see how all of thesechildren have red eyes and goofy
expressions, while my daughterdoes not?
(27:56):
Yet she lumped her into thisexperience when she is not in
the photo class, does not haveaccess to $89 photo cleaner, but
she lumped her into thisexperience.
Apologize expeditiously.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Maya, are you okay?
And I was like yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
I mean, but I'm sitting there like 14 being like
, yeah, I'm okay, and she's like, it's okay, we'll have a
discussion about it at home.
You did a great job and it waswonderful that you kept your
composure, but I'm lucky that Ihad that mother who saw through
the bullshit, because thebullshit had happened to her and
my mother.
This is the reason why I wantedto carry this episode across
(28:35):
the network.
Adultification is somethingthat, because black this is the
reason why I wanted to carrythis episode across the network.
Adultification is somethingthat, because black women have
been experiencing it forgenerations, we're passing it on
to our children.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Absolutely, and it's got to stop with us.
Well, I got a story.
I'll tell you guys a story.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
Go ahead, I just want to follow up, because that is a
beautiful ending and, in mysituation, because for the
mothers out there that did jumpin the bathroom and whooped
their daughter's asses, I'mgoing to tell you this what my
mother did do that I will alwayshonor her for is that after she
got out of her own trigger andwhooped my ass, she listened to
me, she absolutely listened tome and she believed me.
(29:09):
And she corrected, she corrected, she apologized.
And when I tell you she walkedup into Murray Hill Middle
School and shut thatmotherfucker down.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
They never called her again.
They never called her again,even when they were triggered by
their own responses.
They corrected and theyprotected, and that's important.
Tell your story.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
We had a festival in our town, the African American
Day Festival.
You get the little gag gigs.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Yeah, yeah, yeah and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
And so I picked up a fart spray because it's just
funny, right.
I took it to school one day andI sprayed a little under this
thing and it came up and ofcourse all the kids like, hey,
what's up, what's up, you rat,ass, ass kids.
But they ratted on me it.
So we go down to the office andthey call my mom and they're
like, they call my mom.
My mom came down, she's like,yeah, she was disruptive in
class and she looked at therecords and it was like, oh,
(30:02):
they tried to put on my recordthat I had contraband in school.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
No, and my mom said absolutely not.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
I said you're not going to tell my child, my black
child, that she had contraband.
This is fart spray.
If you want to in school,suspend her because she was
disrupting class.
That's one thing To put on herrecord.
She has contraband and when youlook at contraband, they are
dangerous materials.
They are weapons.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
You're not going to put that on her over fart spray.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
So my mom was the same way.
And why would you do that to achild?
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Because they don't care, but this is it.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
They don't say it to children and that's like why are
?
Speaker 1 (30:34):
and that's what I realized, especially after the
shooting of what was that child?
Ralph?
I can't remember his last name,I apologize, but I saw.
I was like, oh, this isreiterated to me over and over
and over again, generation aftergeneration after generation,
that they don't see us aschildren.
And I told the story the lasttime but, I remember when we
(30:55):
moved from Ralph Yarl, ralphYarl, ralph Yarl, I was like
Yard, that ain't right.
See, I knew to trust my mind.
I'm glad that I believed inmyself, but I knew that they
didn't see him.
What was he?
15 or 16?
Speaker 2 (31:09):
at the time 14.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
14.
Okay, what they saw was a20-year-old.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
They saw a man.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
And this is the problem, and I remember when we
moved from the USC area whichwas around like 36th and
Figueroa and like Expeditionaround there to Hancock Park, my
mother had me make cookies andbrownies and we took them to the
fire department and to thepolice department and I realized
that my mother was gettingthese people to see me as a
child and not just a randomblack kid, and I realized that
(31:41):
my mother was doing that toprotect me.
But I didn't realize that untilI don't know, two decades later
I was like, oh, my mom's a G.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Because it's important.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Let our kids be kids, but the things that we have, to
do, to tell our kids or trickpeople into seeing our kids as
kids is wild to me.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Well, they're also doing a lot of things to make us
not be kids.
You go back to like we'retalking about being more mature
in the household, right.
Then you have to go back tothem taking our black men to
jail over something as silly asweed and separating families and
disbarring families.
They've been literallydetaching our black men from our
families since the test of time.
(32:24):
So now you've got your mom andyou have the oldest child and
they need help.
They're looking at theiryoungest son to be the man of
the house.
Now he has all this pressure tobe the man of the house and so
when he wants to be a child andhe can't, that forms, you know,
resentment, because he can't goand play, be on the soccer team
on a Saturday morning because hehas to be at home.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
So it's a lot more it's a yeah, it's a systemic
thing that has so many tentaclesand I think, especially I don't
, maybe I'm, I feel like,especially in this I'm in my 40s
.
I have a lot of friends.
I have three friends in thelast 48 hours that have died
(33:03):
under the age of 50.
Black men, giants in myindustry and were successful by
all accounts.
One died of colon cancer.
I don't know what Aaron died of, but Aaron Spears was a
juggernaut and an amazing humanand at 47 years old he's gone.
(33:24):
James Casey there's so manyEric Parker.
I'm seeing so many black mennot make it to 50.
And I think this adultificationbias has something to do with
it.
Absolutely Because there's astress that's happening, an
(33:46):
underlying health current.
Well, listen, it's the stressand it's been weighing on my
heart because I'm even seeing inmy own community.
It's been weighing on my heartbecause I'm even seeing in my
own community.
Look at all the black rappersthat we've lost under the age of
55 in the last five years.
It's an extensive list.
I think something's wrong.
(34:07):
Well, listen, if you don'tallow a child to be a child, you
disrupt their development andneurological pathways.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
Absolutely that's decision making.
That's stress management.
That's love.
How neurological pathways?
Absolutely that's decisionmaking.
That's stress management.
That's love.
How to love, how to care, howto nurture, how to be nurtured,
how to take in love.
You're disrupting the entireway that we are supposed to
develop when you do that.
So then you're trying, you'reconsistently trying, to catch up
.
Think about running a racewhere you're constantly trying
(34:37):
to catch up with everybody else.
You're taxing your fucking body, you're taxing your mind,
you're taxing your heart, you'retaxing your spirit.
So the amount of mental health,the amount of self-care, the
amount of work we have to do onourselves is double, triple
everybody else, because wedidn't even get to develop
(34:58):
properly, Right, and we keeppointing and saying, hey, we're
having an issue.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
I feel like, especially I'm just going to say
this and y'all can feel howeveryou want to feel and however
you are out there but I feellike Black people especially are
the only group that have nevergotten the opportunity to
properly address their traumaand properly get the remedies
(35:25):
that we would need to moveforward.
And the minute we keep saying,hey, we need help, we're the
only group that you're like,we'll help you, but the
conditions are so hefty and I'mjust wondering, after all this
time, what's the point?
Why do you need to do that?
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Right, it's like I mean, yeah, and you know, they
keep telling us oh well, thathappened so long ago.
It really hasn't been that longago.
You're trying to make usbelieve it's been that long ago,
but it hasn't.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
But you're also talking about what is that long
ago, when we're still seeingpeople that look like us being
shot on a monthly basis, andwe've been seeing that for the
last you know, 70, some oddyears.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Not even that I have a friend whose grandmother her
grandmother was a slave.
So she has record, like she has, the recollection of a person
who was alive and was a slavewhen she was a child.
There are people here who havetalked to people who were slaves
(36:25):
.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
My great grandmother's father was a slave
.
On my father's side, the whitepeople that owned us as slaves
still own a great deal of thetown and they have the last name
that I have and they look likeus.
They just look like the whitecounter, but they have the same
shape, they have the same nose,they have the same butt, they
(36:50):
have the same facial featuresand you're like.
These people are clearlyrelated to me, not just in
ownership because of name, but Ican see the ancestral rape from
this person who owns thebarbecue chain in the town.
So I'm like this isn't that faraway and I'm like I'm not even.
(37:13):
Why can't we acknowledge thatevery country has some bad
beginnings and some weirdhistory?
It doesn't negate the countryitself, it's just a part of the
tapestry of the country.
But when you choose to say that, the telling of my truth makes
you feel bad, because that'swhat the whole we're barring
(37:34):
critical race theory is about.
You're saying that my truthmakes you feel terrible, so I
don't get to say it out loud andI'm just like, ok, well then,
where do we stand?
Where do we go?
So let's put this in somepositives, because we don't want
it just to be this pity session.
You are making strides in thecommunity through a holistic and
(37:58):
psychotherapeutic approach.
What are the aims?
What do you see as the possiblesolutions for people, just to
even begin.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
If any of my clients see this, they're going to know
exactly what I'm about to say.
Right, they're going to knowexactly what I'm about to say.
I'm not fully answering yourquestion, but I want to say this
is play, play, play, play, playthat's a wonderful response
play, that's wonderful.
Play with your friends, playwith your lovers, play with your
(38:30):
parents, play with yoursiblings.
You didn't get to play, so play.
My main focus in my practice isquality of life and the
importance of play.
Because we don't get to play,we don't.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
There's this on Instagram we don't.
There's this thing, and I loveto follow it.
It's called Black Men whoFrolic Love that.
That was one of my favorites.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
It's so good, it's beautiful, and I was just like
this is so beautiful.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
And it makes me so happy, it makes me so sorry.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
I also saw another thing.
It was just like hang out withgirlfriends that tap into your
inner child and that's real, Ilove that Because some of my
best friends are the ones I cantake a nap with and just be
goofy with.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Goofy and silly.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
And eat sugary shit and it really it's very soothing
for the soul because we do goout here with a battle of armor
on us all the time, all the time, it's even like I would even
say for me as a personalexperience, the shit that I go
through and the fact that Idon't necessarily always can
allow myself to ask for help.
I don't remember the last time Itruly cried, To be honest, and
(39:36):
I I don't remember the last timeI truly cried, like to be
honest, Like and I'm not talkingabout, like you know, like a
little tear up here likeactually cried, Like I felt like
when I even I was packing up myapartment and just going
through all the memories that Ihad, you know, into this new
transition, I was like I waswaiting for a moment that I,
like I would want to break down.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Wait till you get to your forties.
You're going to cry all thetime Like I just.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
But I felt like, I felt like there, I do feel like
there is a part of me that knowsthat, like, like subconsciously
, what has been taught to me,especially as a strong black
woman is that we?
Don't cry.
Is that not necessarily that wedon't cry?
Is that if you cry you'll beweak?
And if you are weak you won'tbe able to move forward?
Speaker 3 (40:10):
So I think that I won't survive.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
So, just like I'm waiting for a moment in my life
where I don't have to work onsurvival mode and that has been
and then skipping thatdevelopment process of like this
we skip too fast.
My mom was a single mom.
My mom took care of us, butshe's working.
My grandmother was working, sowe pretty much developed our own
.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
Luckily we weren't bad kids and they passed on that
same mentality.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Luckily we weren't bad kids, we were bad kids.
Luckily, we weren't bad kids,we were good kids.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
We weren't on the street, but we didn't have the
option to be bad kids, Right,but I was working at 15.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
And we could say that in a crazy way.
Before you start me and myfriends, we say that with a
pride thing, Like oh, I've beenworking since I was 15.
But as I'm older, why the hellwas I working at 15.
?
You know what I mean.
Why did I feel the necessity tomake sure I go to the workforce
at 15?
Speaker 1 (40:59):
But I will tell you my mom, and again I think, again
we pass on.
And this is one of the reasonswhy I'm so glad we're having
these conversations, because Ireally think that our parents
try as they might.
Right, we need to give themmore credit than we are,
Absolutely.
Because they were really tryingto break some generational
(41:19):
traumas that were like theweight of Gibraltar.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Right, because we got our own problems, but they had
another set of problems.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
No, because I remember to your point right.
I remember one time I was leftoutside of a theater and
transportation wouldn't get meand so my mom had to come.
But it was like a 40-minutedrive and it was like midnight
in downtown and I was upsetbecause I got left and nobody
checked.
And I was upset because I'm theonly black girl I was the only
(41:51):
black performer period and ofcourse I'm the one that's left
on the steps of what's now whatthey would call the Staples
Center.
It's got a new name.
What's it now?
Crypto?
Thank you, them.
So I'm sitting there, you know,waiting outside and I'm calling
my mom and I'm, you know,saying you know, I can't believe
they left me.
My mom goes, stop cryingimmediately.
(42:11):
You'll be vulnerable and peoplemight you know you're a target.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
Don't cry.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
And I know that my mother was doing that out of
protection, because that is whatwas necessary in that moment.
But I also give her so muchgrace, because what else was she
supposed to give me?
Speaker 2 (42:33):
Right, because she already knew.
She already knew what it wouldlook like.
And it's a double-edged swordbecause, in knowing what you,
sitting there crying and beingvulnerable, would do to you,
even though she may have notwanted to give you that response
, she knew she had to because ofthe way that was involved in
those decisions and how hardthat must have been, and I think
(43:03):
that in our stopping thesegenerational traumas, we also
have to acknowledge what ourparents went through to put us
even in a different headspacewhere we could.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
What are we going to say, Actually?
Speaker 3 (43:16):
I have three things I'm going to say To that.
This is what I tell people allthe time when you look at the
things that your parents havedone to you that you look at as
the way in which they'vetraumatized, you, remember that
they have healed significantlymore than what they've put on
you.
When you can look at yourparents and see them as a human,
(43:37):
as a person, and you canacknowledge damn as much shit as
I have, as much trauma as Ihave, that means there's so much
more that they healed beforethey even got to me and that I'm
going to heal a significantamount of that before it gets to
my kids, but some of it isgoing to seep through to them.
There's a grace that you canoffer them Exactly and a love
that you can have for them.
The second thing I want to sayis to what you said when you
(43:59):
were saying you're waiting for amoment.
Stop waiting for the moment.
Choose to have it.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
Because you'll wait forever.
Speaker 3 (44:08):
Because your defenses are brilliant.
Your defenses are set up in away to keep you safe, and they
will keep you safe until theyknow they don't have to keep you
safe from that.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
So, instead of waiting for a moment to feel
that, choose to have it and setset it up.
Not only choose to have it, butset it up for yourself and
whatever it looks like foryourself but I don't know, and
that's the thing I think thatit's like.
But here's where the givingyourself to the permission to
play comes in into practice.
Because, play with it.
It's an unknown.
(44:44):
I know we are conditioned tosee unknowns as really scary
things, but in this case, anunknown with a permission to
play means multiple tries to getit right.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
Like a sandbox that you didn't get to play in right
Multiple times to find the toolsand I'll tell you, okay, this
is a perfect example.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
So I just started working for a new artist.
I work as a singer, so I juststarted working for a new artist
and, like you said, mycounterpart is my sis and I
trust her, and so all day wejust make stupid jokes, we make
stupid and we laugh all the time, and so for this run we were in
(45:28):
Vegas doing a residency.
I always have an agenda of 19things that I'm supposed to do,
because now I have free time andfor the first time in my damn
life, I just went to sleep.
And for the first four days Ifelt really guilty about just
going to sleep and I was like,maybe this is my body saying,
(45:51):
maybe you just need to sleep,because I never woke up feeling
like, oh, I slept too much.
I was like, oh you, and Irealized the reason why I was
sleeping so much was because,for the first time in a long
time on a job, I didn't feellike I needed to fight anybody.
I didn't feel like I needed tofight for my space or fight for
(46:14):
my voice or fight to be heard orfight for the, the money or
fight for any of it.
And this was the first time inworking in 20 plus years where I
felt like I don't really haveany battle here.
Things are nice, my coworkersare nice, my space is nice, I've
(46:34):
been given what I need.
It's taken me 25 freaking yearsto get here.
That's a whole notherconversation.
For the first time in a longtime, I felt like I could just
go to sleep and there wasnothing pressing and the world
(46:55):
wasn't going to end, and ifpeople called you know what
They'll call back.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
And I think you know, for the last thing that I
wanted to say, that kind ofleads into that when we're
trying to figure out how to healthat part of us, how to heal
the adultified child in us,right, and you'll hear
therapists say this kind of shitall the time, right, and half
the time when they say I'd belike, all right, yeah, we know
this, we know this, but I trulybelieve this.
When it comes to us, I trulybelieve us as black folks, one
of the biggest things, one ofthe things that will offer us
(47:25):
the most healing, is to heal ourchild self, is to go in and
look at our child self and seeall the moments.
We didn't get to play, wedidn't get to explore, we didn't
get to rest, we didn't get todo the things that children do.
Children get to rest.
We didn't Children get naps.
Children get to explore whatfeels good, what they need, how
(47:46):
to self-regulate Children aren'tjockeying for money at 15.
Right.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
Right.
Speaker 3 (47:51):
Children get to figure out how to cry, when, to
cry when it feels good, when itdoesn't.
Speaker 1 (47:56):
Children get to do that, and we're having this
conversation because we want thenext generation of black
children to do that, to get tobe children.
Speaker 3 (48:07):
Children, well, I think, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
I was just going to say the last little no, go ahead
.
Speaker 3 (48:12):
If you want to figure out where to start, start with
your child self and go talk toyour child self and see where
the wounds lie and start thereand see where the happiness lies
.
Absolutely See where the timesare, you're happy, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
Because the happiness is what we're trying to craft
in our adulthood.
If we don't go back to thetimes where we know we were
truly happy, how can we shape itin adulthood?
Speaker 2 (48:37):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Well, I just want to say, guys,all you guys out there, I hope
you guys enjoyed thisconversation on the
adultification bias of blackchildren.
You know we have Maya and wehave Nadege, and y'all know I
like to leave some type ofmessage at the end of my shows,
just because I feel like youhave to put out in the world
(48:58):
what you want to receive.
Absolutely.
So, maya, nadege, would youlike to leave a message about?
Okay, so I want to specify thisThings that you think can
rectify the adultification ofchildren, what would you give a
tip for?
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Me personally.
I think that I tried to openthis box, if you will, because I
wanted us to start havingconversations, and
adultification bias is not amonolith.
We all have our tailoredexperiences with this issue.
So my hope for this series andwhat it's brought to the public
and what it's brought to blackchildren now and black people
(49:45):
who once were children, is talkabout it, just talk about it.
Start by just talking about it.
It doesn't have to be solvedtoday.
It doesn't have to be solved.
Maybe it's not a solvable thing, but I think with awareness
will change it, because withawareness people will have more
(50:09):
of aware with all of what to do.
Speaker 3 (50:13):
so just start talking for me I would say play like
the real kind of play, like playwith your friends, play with
your lovers, play with yourfamily, play with your siblings,
play with everybody and talk toand love and hug and nurture
(50:35):
and kiss your child self everysecond that you can Find your
child self and love them the waythat they didn't get to be
loved and treat them like thechild that they are.
And play, play, play play.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
Also, we want to hear from you at Slap the Power what
are the experiences withadultification bias that you've
had?
What are the remedies that youfound that worked for you?
Here at this network, we are acommunity and we will solve our
issues by talking about themhonestly and by sharing the
(51:11):
solutions that work.
So we want to hear from youtruly.
And thank you for having thisplatform yes, absolutely,
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
Like you said, we are a family and it's very
important that we do have thesediscussions.
So if you heard anything or youhave any more questions, you
have any more comments, you canreach my at slap the power you
can reach in the dutch as well.
All of her information will beposted here.
Please like, subscribe and joinin, and that's it.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
That's all.
Speaker 2 (51:47):
That's it.
That's all is written by me,casey Carnage, and produced by
myself and Rick Barrio-Dill.
Associate producer Brie Corey.
Assistant producer LarissaDonahoe.
Audio and video engineering andstudio facilities provided by
Slap Studios LA, withdistribution through our
collective for social progressand cultural expression, slap
(52:08):
the Network.
If you have any ideas for ashow you want to hear or see,
please email us at info atslapphepowercom and, as always,
go to dazitdassallcom and signup there to make sure you will
never miss a thing.
See you next show.
three cheers for Beyonce and everything that she
does, but she still had adiamond sparkly thong on and had
to do that.
Even in this day and age, shecannot be a woman who at some
point does not be in a diamondsparkly thong, and even she is
victim of this, her counterpartAdele, who can go in a full
(00:21):
length actamundo and just singthere.
Isn't that wild?
Isn't that wild?
We are still in an era wheremost women of color received
their wealth from hypersexualization of themselves.
That's it, that's all.
That's it, that's all.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Black excellence at its finest.
How that skin glows, she's atrue diamond, with the world
right out back.
She's still smiling.
Never left that crown till shestays thriving.
That's it, that's all.
That's it, that's all.
That's it.
(01:01):
That's all, that's it, that'sall.
Is that really it, though?
What up, what up, what up?
Welcome to that's it.
That's it, that's all, that'sit, that's all.
Is that really it, though?
What up, what up, what up,welcome to.
That's it, that's All, y'all.
I'm your host, kasey.
Today we got Maya on the showand Nadege Hi, and today we're
gonna.
This is actually a part threeepisode through Slap, the
Network, on adultification biasthrough black children.
(01:23):
We felt it was necessary tokeep the discussion going
because clearly it's still superprevalent, it's still happening
and we want our kids to be kidsand be able to develop in the
way they should be developingand not push faster than they
have to be.
So let's just jump right intoit.
Let's just say cheers y'all,cheers, salud.
I can't reach you, the judge,but you know how that works.
(01:44):
I'm going to be the bridge.
Be the bridge, trouble waters,honey.
Before we jump into it, forthose who don't know what
adultification is, I would liketo read you guys the definition,
so you guys are aware of whatit is.
Adultification bias is a formof racial prejudice where
children of minority groups,typically black children, are
(02:04):
treated by adults as being moremature than they actually are.
So let's just jump right intoit.
Let's hear some of yourthoughts about adultification,
and has it actually directlyaffected you at any point of
your life?
I think it's destroying.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
It's destroying and it's killing our children.
It's destroying and it'skilling our children, right?
And it's destroying ourdevelopmental stages as kids,
right, we all go throughdevelopmental stages.
When you make a child an adultbefore they're ready, you mess
with their brain chemistrybecause they're not going
through those developmentalstages in an appropriate way.
They're not getting to explore,they're not getting to develop
(02:43):
their defenses, develop theirthinking, develop their problem
solving in a way that isspecific to children.
They're developing it in a waythat is expected of them as an
adult.
So it impacts us for the restof our lives.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
And it also impacts.
If you don't have the tools toknow how to navigate through
these waters, then theexpectation of you suddenly,
because you're of a certain age,but at this age you're a larger
size than your non-blackcounterparts, so you therefore
should automatically be giventhe key to how to navigate.
(03:19):
This is a lot to put onsomebody who's 10.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
What do you mean by larger sizes?
This is a lot to put onsomebody who's 10.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Well, what do you mean?
What do you mean by largersizes?
Like, as well as we geneticsare still genetics.
Okay, you brought black peoplehere on boats and only the
strongest of us survived.
We tend to be a little largerin size, a little larger in size
, a little larger in stature,right, and we tend to develop,
(03:48):
you know, a little more rapidlybecause of this, because you
brought people here and only thestrongest of them survived, so
you made super people.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Pretty much, pretty much.
You know I'm not going to godown this rabbit hole, but
systemically also.
Look at the food deserts, lookat what foods we're eating.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Right.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Look at the water quality.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Look at what foods are available and what foods are
encouraged.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
So we have significantly more hormones in
our bodies.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
So we absolutely, absolutely.
I agree with that because, likeI was telling a story about,
like I was living in once andthe first month my intestines
was fucked up.
It was bad and I really thoughtit was something that I was
eating there.
I really honestly thought itwas something eating there.
And I went to the doctor and,as the day progresses and what
(04:42):
was happening, it was just likemy body was releasing all the
hormones in American food, allthe preservatives in American
food, because over there theymake everything fresh, they wake
up in the morning, they'rechurning their spices, they're
going, they're cutting fresh,like they do it every morning.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
It was the reason why I told you, because I had done
the job.
If you are a singer, you'vedone in any capacity.
You've done this ShanghaiBeijing, trying to freaking,
drop so and learning to survive.
It's kind of a weird situationbecause the air quality alone
you're like what?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
People are blowing smoke in your throat as you're
hitting the highest note youcould possibly have and there's
like an air quality like indexthat you have to watch to be
able to go outside.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
It's real deep.
So the one thing that I toldyou, I was like that's the
reason why the tea is expensive.
Go and get the price of yourtea.
And you were like really, and Isaid get the price of your tea.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Did it work?
It worked, she saved my life.
She gave me this little pack ofpowder.
Saved my life.
But going back to the actualtopic, when you're talking about
developmental stage and you'retalking about how we are bigger,
the over-sexualization of blackchildren, especially black
girls, you know going into, likeyou know because they may look
(05:52):
like a woman.
They may have the features as agrown woman.
They're still 10 years old.
They're still 11 years old.
So and when?
Speaker 3 (05:55):
you, when you are developing as a sexual being?
Right, there's stages, right,that starts fairly early, right?
So when you're, when you, whenyou are going up to a 10 year
old black girl and telling her,you know, you act and grow, and
you being fast, you're doing allthese things.
She's not, she doesn'tconceptually understand what
you're saying, but what you'redoing is you're introducing
these things into her spacebefore she even has the ability
(06:19):
to get developmentally to aspace where she can actually
conceptually understand that andthe way that she's being
approached in the world.
And so, instead of healthilydeveloping her sexuality or
healthily developing her toolsto manage people around her,
sexuality, she's forced toalready know.
So then what's happening is isthat she's creating what she
thinks is the appropriate way ofbeing, and what she thinks is
(06:43):
how you manage men or how youmanage women or how you manage
people.
She's developing, she'screating ways on how you manage
spaces, and what we see is whereshe's getting that information
TV, what you're saying to her,how people are treating her, and
she's not getting to developthat healthily in a safe space.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
And let's keep it a buck.
We're still in an era and thisis not to downplay these women
at all, because I think thatthey are all fabulous, but we
are still in an era where mostwomen of color received their
wealth from hyper-sexualizationof themselves.
And that's that, like I don't,you know what I mean.
(07:25):
Three cheers for Beyonce andeverything that she does, but
she still had a diamond sparklythong on and had to do that.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
But here's the thing with Beyonce.
I'm going to take Beyonce outof that because Beyonce going in
Destiny's Child, those wereappropriate outfits she
developed.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
No, but I'm saying even in this day and age she
cannot be a woman who at somepoint does not be in a diamond
sparkly thong.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
And even she is victim of this, absolutely
Because you got, you know hercounterpart, adele, who can go
in a full length A gown.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Exactamundo and just sit there, and isn't that wild,
isn't that wild?
Speaker 2 (08:03):
And a full length.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
No butt, no titties, all the grammys and all the
things and the thing, butbeyonce gotta still shake it for
dollars and you still won'tgive her and you still won't
give her the grammy.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
It seems a little rude, right so and and I think
the thing is, is that like when,if you can develop healthily to
get to that point, it'sempowering, right?
And that's where we getconfused.
It's very empowering if you getto develop healthily or you
develop a healthy relationshipwith your sexuality, with your
body, with whatever right.
That's empowering.
If you don't, that's dangerous.
Well, let's talk about this too.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Segueing to this.
So they talk aboutadultification is what happens
on the outside.
When I was reading a lot moreon this topic, they talked about
parent.
What did I say?
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Parentification right , where it happens in the home,
whether it's a divorced parentor it's a single mom right, and
they're usually the oldest blackfemale child.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
So what we call it is a parentified child right Now.
Parentified child that happensacross the board right In a very
specific way, but it is.
It is very it can be verydamaging to the way in which you
relate in relationships.
Right, because you don't get tobe a child but you're
responsible, you're emotionallyresponsible for adults, but you
(09:19):
don't have the developmentalskills to be that available.
And so then when you become anadult which is what I see a lot
with my clients is that then youhave a lot of like, and what do
you do?
Speaker 1 (09:34):
I was going to say can we talk about that a bit?
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (09:35):
what do you do?
I'm a psychotherapist.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Hey y'all, and not just any psychotherapist.
Can we talk a bit about thespecifications of your practice,
because I think it's reallyfascinating very different for
different clinicians.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Right, I'm more.
I use my body in my practice,where there's a lot of somatic
therapists who use their use theclient's body whereas I, my
(10:09):
body informs me on how to workwith you and I address what's
happening in your body as well.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Now I, just as a person who has a lot of respect
for holistic practice andWestern practice, I am seeing
this great marriage that'shappening lately of even if
we're introducing medications,it's a yes, and it's not just
we're medicating and good luck.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Well, because people are knowed up.
Now People are gettingknowledgeable.
It's just like you can givesomebody a medication for
something.
There's also a direct root or adirect herb or a direct
synthesize.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
You know, like it's from a root, everything,
everything you know.
Greatness happens in balance.
I think in a lot of times wewere leaning to Western right
Like an overcorrection yeah.
And we were just like OK, youknow, it was like it was like
(11:09):
all, if I, you know, stick arock up my ass, my hair will
stop falling out.
Not gonna work right, but maybeif I connect back with nature
and get all of these chemicalsout of my body, my hair will
grow back right, like it's.
Like there's, but there's abalance.
We went all the way left on oneend and then all of a sudden,
everybody went all the way rightand everybody was like I'm, I'm
just going to eat grass forevernow, and then people were
getting sick.
And now we're finding thisplace where we're coming back to
center, where it's like youneed a good balance of both, and
(11:30):
that is different for everysingle person, and the work is
finding the balance for you.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Well, they talk about , like even in the
adultification process, themistrust in health care
providers, like I know a lot ofblack people that don't go to
doctors, like they just won't doit.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Ok, listen, I can attest to that because I have an
autoimmune disease calledHashimoto's and when I first
started experiencing thesymptoms of what it was, my hair
started falling out.
I was having neuropathy in myhands and feet.
I was having really a hard timestanding for any period past
(12:07):
like maybe 20 minutes I had tosit down.
I had chronic fatigue all ofthe time and in like a two-month
period I put on like 35 poundsand I wasn't doing anything
differently.
So I cut out wheat, alcohol,sugar.
I maybe lost like five pounds,but I still my feet would swell
uncontrollably.
And I was going to all of thesedoctors.
I had a food journal.
(12:28):
I was writing down my symptoms,what I was doing.
I went to seven differentdoctors before I was diagnosed
with Hashimoto's and three ofthem prescribed me
antidepressants.
Three of them suggested that Iwas lying.
One said well, if you're doingeverything that you say you're
doing then, and I was just like,why would I come in with an
(12:51):
entire journal that I've beenkeeping for the last two and a
half months saying this is whatI've been eating, this is what
I've been finding, this is whatI?
Why would I be saying that?
To lie to you.
But I realized that A because Ithink these things are
indicative of a larger problemto come.
Nobody would listen to me untilI finally paid out of network
(13:36):
$600 to some specialist, andthat's the only time that person
ever answered my queries, askedme questions that were relative
to me, and that's when we foundmy diagnosis.
But it took seven tries.
So I can't even be mad at peopleof color when they're like,
yeah, I don't trust doctors, Iwouldn't either, and I had
(13:59):
pretty decent insurance and Iwas paying.
It's not like you know.
I was going to and I'm not evendisparaging people that are
going to free clinics like thosepeople must have such a hard
road.
But I was going to this out ofnetwork, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah and paying themoney and going online, and I
was still treated like a damncriminal for saying this is
(14:21):
what's happening with my body,and I've looked it up and it
seems like it might be thesethings.
May I be tested for them?
What are your thoughts?
Everybody's like there's no wayyou have this.
It was so dismissive and socondescending and when I started
going down the rabbit hole, Istarted meeting so many women of
color, not just in the UnitedStates, but in the UK, in
(14:44):
Australia, that were havingsimilar experiences about health
care.
This is when I looked up whatadultification means, because I
think that this is happening towomen of color globally and I
think that it's a call to it's acrisis?
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Well, it's, it's.
I'm going to get on my soapboxreal quick.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Girl do it.
That's why we got microphones.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
I actually wrote my grad school thesis on something
similar.
Um, there's a history, there'sa reason, there's a history
behind this right and not to bethat guy, but if we go back to
slavery, um, if you ever havethe chance to read dr joy
degru's book, um my hero, oh,and I got to meet her when I
graduated.
I cried oh, my god, I love herso much, I, I love you so much.
(15:24):
But in her bookIntergenerational Slave Trauma,
she speaks about the developmentof gynecology which was this
piece of shit?
dude was basically abusing blackwomen to figure out our
reproductive organs and in hiswriting, systemically, he was
being given carte blanche tothese women.
(15:44):
Yeah, and in his writing, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Systemically, he was being given carte blanche.
Oh yeah yeah.
And there was no sedatives.
There was no medication.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
There was no nothing.
And what in his writings whathe said was is to justify his
action is that black women havehigher pain tolerance but we're
more hysterical.
I'm not going to go into it,but that has been proven through
research that in the medicalsystem that people still believe
that and it is taught.
It was taught.
It was taught up until recently, not only is it taught recently
(16:13):
?
Speaker 1 (16:14):
okay, my university celebrates him as the father of
gynecology, so in Yale I'm goingto put Yale on blast right now.
But at the Yale Medical School,this man's photo is huge.
His beginning of surgical toolsare on display.
The women that he operated onare not described by their name.
(16:40):
They're described by subjectnumber and their pictures are in
display through this hall andyou have to go there and get an
education and see that and it'sso traumatizing absolutely, and
the fact that it's still.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
It's still.
You know, as somebody who alsohas an autoimmune disease.
I have endometriosis and I hadthe same experience.
It wasn't until I fully leanedinto the stereotype and started
cussing motherfuckers out.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
That anybody helped, that people started listening to
me.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
And the crazy part about it is that you leaned into
a stereotype that was placedbecause they always give us a
reason to be there.
Exactly, they always give us areason.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
It's a snake eating its tail Right.
So if we're we're, we are seenas hysterical, we're seen as
aggressive, we're seen as angry.
Right, we're seen as havinghigher pain tolerance.
And so when you show up Rightand so imagine that as a child,
as I was diagnosed, I was verylucky.
My gynecologist was my mother'sdoctor and so she listened to
(17:38):
me.
But when I went to otherdoctors, I was 14 when I got
diagnosed with endometriosis.
They prescribed me withOxycontin oh my God and
Percocets at 14.
Could you imagine if my parentsdidn't have the way with them.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Were your doctors white or black, white, okay, and
I think that I just I mean, Idon't know about you, but this
just makes me cry and I feellike it's almost an ancestral
pain, like I'm crying for all ofthe women, like because I
remember going when I was incollege, seeing that whenever as
I had a job at the med schooland I would have to go through
(18:16):
this particular hall to deliverreports for the person I was
working for, and I just rememberseeing that every day and I
remember reading a study aboutit and they were like, well,
there's in the last blah, blah,blah years and they pointed to
people like Cornel West andHenry Louis Gates and Kathy
Cohen who pointed out like howracist this was and whatever,
(18:42):
and there's still this beliefthat it was still a justified
means to an end.
So I'm like how do we even talkabout an adultification bias
when you still believe that thisis a justified means to an end?
And I'd even be willing toaccept that if there was an
apology or an acknowledgement ofWell, there's not going to be
(19:03):
an apology, because they wouldhave to acknowledge what they
did and they'd have toacknowledge those people and if
they acknowledge it.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
That means they have to technically rewrite history
and rewrite the actual truth,because they're not going to do
that, I'm telling you they have,like.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
I mean, if I'm wrong, I think they did a study on
like something like 130something women I don't remember
In the library, right, becauseyou have to go past this hall
and I don't know if it's ondisplay at the Yale Medical
School anymore.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
Oh, he did yes.
Oh, I call bullshit.
He probably did it on hundredsand hundreds of women.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Okay, those are the women he recorded.
Yes, but even those women,there are pictures of them, oh
yeah, and there's no record oftheir names, of course, anywhere
.
So it would say subject 37.
Yeah, some one of the mostfamous Distended uterus, and
(20:01):
then list so, but they wouldhave this woman's picture
Extended uterus and then list so, but they would have this
woman's picture, and you knowthat she showed up in the best
outfit that she had, hoping thatthis man was going to help her,
because many of the things thathe was studying is at the time
when women would become pregnant.
They would become incontinentbecause of the medical procedure
(20:24):
that was done at the time.
So a lot of these women came inbecause they could no longer
work, because they were nowincontinent.
And these women were coming infor their help and rather than
saying this woman's name isSadie or whatever, subject 37.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
And I would almost say that the women who came in
well-dressed were the ones whoprobably got treated the best.
Because he was, he was doingtests on his, on slaves.
Yeah, one of the most famouspicture, and I it's burned into
my mind.
I can.
I, if I could draw, I coulddraw it for you.
And it's a.
It's a woman.
She has a rapa on her head, shehas a like a dark skirt with
(21:02):
like a little bit of a like alike an apron, and she's sitting
on her knees on top of thetable and it's just these white
men around.
That shit is burned into mymind.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Subject 52.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
And I remember I was doing research on endometriosis
because I wasn't getting help, Iwas suffering, I was whatever.
And that's when I went down therabbit hole and I saw that.
I remember I was sick to mystomach and that image is burnt,
it's obviously burned into mymind.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Now, mind you, they have these images.
Okay, so you're talking aboutadultification in younger
children.
You're in college, what are youlike?
18, 17?
Speaker 1 (21:41):
And the fact that they would even have something
like that displayed is stilllike you're not even, but there
was so much of that in college,but at every college.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Yeah, I consider myself still a child in college
and listen 95% of the time.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
let's be clear we are the only ones who know the
story.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
They don't know.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
So when we're walking by crying or angry face, red,
nauseous, and people are likewhat's wrong with you?
And you're like get the fuckout of my face.
They don't know why you have anattitude.
They don't realize that you'rewatching somebody who tortured
people who look like you beingglorified.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
They don't even know that history because they looked
at you as a lab rat, right, andthey still do so.
When you have any idea oryou've had any wherewithD at
your symptoms and say these arethe seven symptoms I have.
(22:42):
I've looked and the researchpoints to these five things, how
dare you?
Speaker 3 (22:48):
How dare you think you know more than me?
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Well, here's the thing.
Now we have to circle back tothe school systems and
educational systems, right?
So I remember there was thetown hall you're in a suburb,
you're in a township and theywere going back and forth about
whether they should get uniformsright and the reason why they
was getting uniforms because itwas a lot of black children,
black girls, specifically beingsent home because their skirt
(23:12):
was a little bit shorter orwhatever the case may be.
So all the black parents werelike, okay, let's rectify it,
let's get uniforms.
Do you know, most of the whiteparents, most of the white
parents, they voted against it.
They was like, well, that'sgoing to take care, that's going
to get rid of our children'sindividuality and stuff like
(23:33):
that.
And whole time it's like, well,we're trying to rectify the
situation that does not pertainto you, because your daughter,
miss molly, is over here prettymuch ta-tas, pointed crock and
trying to doing the same stuffthat we're doing and doing the
same thing watching the same rapscene that we're doing and the
development of, like you saidabout the black body is just,
you know, just how we aredeveloping, how genetics are.
(23:56):
It was looked at like why, whyis why?
Is this girl upset?
Um, is it acceptable for her towear this and her not worth it?
Let's just rectify the wholesituation.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Put everybody in uniforms and no yeah, of course
not because they don't recognizethe experience.
I have a.
I have a quick story.
It's.
It's not, it wasn't about mybody, but I was a bit of a
problem child in school.
I was a little rowdy, a littlebit I mean you're still right.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
You're still right.
You're still routing the dead.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
I am um, I don't have a math brain at all and my
father is a, an engineermathematician, like full math
brain, and I was failing mathconstantly.
And I was in middle school andmommy forgive me for telling
this story um and I, I got an aon my math test and I was
(24:48):
fucking stoked.
You understand me.
I was in class, just happy,just like just happyo, whoo,
whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, justhappy, got the A.
The little white boy sittingnext to me gave me some Skittles
.
I ate some Skittles, proudyexcited, having the best day of
my life.
You understand me, I'm about tomake my father proud.
Like I was in there.
I went home, I was taking aluxurious bubble bath, mommy,
(25:12):
forgive me.
My mother came in there andwhooped my ass in the bathtub.
I didn't even know what I wasgetting whooped for, I was
getting fucked up and all of asudden she goes how dare you get
drunk in school?
My excitement translated to myteacher that I was drunk.
Oh no, I'm getting emotionalthinking about it.
(25:38):
I actually confronted him andhe profusely apologized as an
adult.
I confronted him but I got thewhooping of my life.
I didn't even know what I wasgetting whooped for.
You know, and that's the thing,because I was excited for
getting an A, but they thought Iwas drunk.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
But here's the thing.
That's crazy, but here's thething.
Some experience like thathappened to your mom in a
different way.
Absolutely, and it was muchmore punitive to her.
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
So in her mind.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
What she was doing was protecting you Absolutely.
She was horrified.
What she was doing wasconditioning you Absolutely.
She was horrified.
What she was doing wasconditioning you.
And I'm so thankful for mymother because my mother had
that experience and did not passit on to me and worked very
(26:31):
tirelessly.
Because I'll tell you a storyright.
So I was in the eighth gradeand I went to the same school
from seventh to twelfth grade.
I went to a very ritzy privateschool where rich people send
their children and movie starssend their children.
So I was waiting to be pickedup after school and the kids
(26:53):
around me, all white, got aphoto cleaner and they were
huffing it and their responseswere hilarious.
So I'm sitting there laughingand they're like do you want to
huff that?
And I'm like hell, no, I don'tknow what the hell that is,
Because she be black and wedon't know about huff, that's
not anything that we do, we'renot doing that we know cognac,
(27:15):
Hennessy weed, you know, classic, that's not it.
That's it, that's not it, butI'm sitting there being, you
know, thoroughly entertainedwhile eating a Starburst
whatever.
The security guard comes uprounds us all up, calls our
parents, calls my mother andeverybody's parents, and they're
(27:35):
like and.
And my mother says okay, firstof all, you owe me um the cab
fare that I spent to get here,you owe me retroactive um
tuition and you owe my daughteran apology.
Did you look at all of thesechildren?
And then did you look at mychild?
Did you see how all of thesechildren have red eyes and goofy
expressions, while my daughterdoes not?
(27:56):
Yet she lumped her into thisexperience when she is not in
the photo class, does not haveaccess to $89 photo cleaner, but
she lumped her into thisexperience.
Apologize expeditiously.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Maya, are you okay?
And I was like yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
I mean, but I'm sitting there like 14 being like
, yeah, I'm okay, and she's like, it's okay, we'll have a
discussion about it at home.
You did a great job and it waswonderful that you kept your
composure, but I'm lucky that Ihad that mother who saw through
the bullshit, because thebullshit had happened to her and
my mother.
This is the reason why I wantedto carry this episode across
(28:35):
the network.
Adultification is somethingthat, because black this is the
reason why I wanted to carrythis episode across the network.
Adultification is somethingthat, because black women have
been experiencing it forgenerations, we're passing it on
to our children.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Absolutely, and it's got to stop with us.
Well, I got a story.
I'll tell you guys a story.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
Go ahead, I just want to follow up, because that is a
beautiful ending and, in mysituation, because for the
mothers out there that did jumpin the bathroom and whooped
their daughter's asses, I'mgoing to tell you this what my
mother did do that I will alwayshonor her for is that after she
got out of her own trigger andwhooped my ass, she listened to
me, she absolutely listened tome and she believed me.
(29:09):
And she corrected, she corrected, she apologized.
And when I tell you she walkedup into Murray Hill Middle
School and shut thatmotherfucker down.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
They never called her again.
They never called her again,even when they were triggered by
their own responses.
They corrected and theyprotected, and that's important.
Tell your story.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
We had a festival in our town, the African American
Day Festival.
You get the little gag gigs.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Yeah, yeah, yeah and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
And so I picked up a fart spray because it's just
funny, right.
I took it to school one day andI sprayed a little under this
thing and it came up and ofcourse all the kids like, hey,
what's up, what's up, you rat,ass, ass kids.
But they ratted on me it.
So we go down to the office andthey call my mom and they're
like, they call my mom.
My mom came down, she's like,yeah, she was disruptive in
class and she looked at therecords and it was like, oh,
(30:02):
they tried to put on my recordthat I had contraband in school.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
No, and my mom said absolutely not.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
I said you're not going to tell my child, my black
child, that she had contraband.
This is fart spray.
If you want to in school,suspend her because she was
disrupting class.
That's one thing To put on herrecord.
She has contraband and when youlook at contraband, they are
dangerous materials.
They are weapons.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
You're not going to put that on her over fart spray.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
So my mom was the same way.
And why would you do that to achild?
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Because they don't care, but this is it.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
They don't say it to children and that's like why are
?
Speaker 1 (30:34):
and that's what I realized, especially after the
shooting of what was that child?
Ralph?
I can't remember his last name,I apologize, but I saw.
I was like, oh, this isreiterated to me over and over
and over again, generation aftergeneration after generation,
that they don't see us aschildren.
And I told the story the lasttime but, I remember when we
(30:55):
moved from Ralph Yarl, ralphYarl, ralph Yarl, I was like
Yard, that ain't right.
See, I knew to trust my mind.
I'm glad that I believed inmyself, but I knew that they
didn't see him.
What was he?
15 or 16?
Speaker 2 (31:09):
at the time 14.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
14.
Okay, what they saw was a20-year-old.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
They saw a man.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
And this is the problem, and I remember when we
moved from the USC area whichwas around like 36th and
Figueroa and like Expeditionaround there to Hancock Park, my
mother had me make cookies andbrownies and we took them to the
fire department and to thepolice department and I realized
that my mother was gettingthese people to see me as a
child and not just a randomblack kid, and I realized that
(31:41):
my mother was doing that toprotect me.
But I didn't realize that untilI don't know, two decades later
I was like, oh, my mom's a G.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Because it's important.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Let our kids be kids, but the things that we have, to
do, to tell our kids or trickpeople into seeing our kids as
kids is wild to me.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Well, they're also doing a lot of things to make us
not be kids.
You go back to like we'retalking about being more mature
in the household, right.
Then you have to go back tothem taking our black men to
jail over something as silly asweed and separating families and
disbarring families.
They've been literallydetaching our black men from our
families since the test of time.
(32:24):
So now you've got your mom andyou have the oldest child and
they need help.
They're looking at theiryoungest son to be the man of
the house.
Now he has all this pressure tobe the man of the house and so
when he wants to be a child andhe can't, that forms, you know,
resentment, because he can't goand play, be on the soccer team
on a Saturday morning because hehas to be at home.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
So it's a lot more it's a yeah, it's a systemic
thing that has so many tentaclesand I think, especially I don't
, maybe I'm, I feel like,especially in this I'm in my 40s
.
I have a lot of friends.
I have three friends in thelast 48 hours that have died
(33:03):
under the age of 50.
Black men, giants in myindustry and were successful by
all accounts.
One died of colon cancer.
I don't know what Aaron died of, but Aaron Spears was a
juggernaut and an amazing humanand at 47 years old he's gone.
(33:24):
James Casey there's so manyEric Parker.
I'm seeing so many black mennot make it to 50.
And I think this adultificationbias has something to do with
it.
Absolutely Because there's astress that's happening, an
(33:46):
underlying health current.
Well, listen, it's the stressand it's been weighing on my
heart because I'm even seeing inmy own community.
It's been weighing on my heartbecause I'm even seeing in my
own community.
Look at all the black rappersthat we've lost under the age of
55 in the last five years.
It's an extensive list.
I think something's wrong.
(34:07):
Well, listen, if you don'tallow a child to be a child, you
disrupt their development andneurological pathways.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
Absolutely that's decision making.
That's stress management.
That's love.
How neurological pathways?
Absolutely that's decisionmaking.
That's stress management.
That's love.
How to love, how to care, howto nurture, how to be nurtured,
how to take in love.
You're disrupting the entireway that we are supposed to
develop when you do that.
So then you're trying, you'reconsistently trying, to catch up
.
Think about running a racewhere you're constantly trying
(34:37):
to catch up with everybody else.
You're taxing your fucking body, you're taxing your mind,
you're taxing your heart, you'retaxing your spirit.
So the amount of mental health,the amount of self-care, the
amount of work we have to do onourselves is double, triple
everybody else, because wedidn't even get to develop
(34:58):
properly, Right, and we keeppointing and saying, hey, we're
having an issue.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
I feel like, especially I'm just going to say
this and y'all can feel howeveryou want to feel and however
you are out there but I feellike Black people especially are
the only group that have nevergotten the opportunity to
properly address their traumaand properly get the remedies
(35:25):
that we would need to moveforward.
And the minute we keep saying,hey, we need help, we're the
only group that you're like,we'll help you, but the
conditions are so hefty and I'mjust wondering, after all this
time, what's the point?
Why do you need to do that?
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Right, it's like I mean, yeah, and you know, they
keep telling us oh well, thathappened so long ago.
It really hasn't been that longago.
You're trying to make usbelieve it's been that long ago,
but it hasn't.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
But you're also talking about what is that long
ago, when we're still seeingpeople that look like us being
shot on a monthly basis, andwe've been seeing that for the
last you know, 70, some oddyears.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Not even that I have a friend whose grandmother her
grandmother was a slave.
So she has record, like she has, the recollection of a person
who was alive and was a slavewhen she was a child.
There are people here who havetalked to people who were slaves
(36:25):
.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
My great grandmother's father was a slave
.
On my father's side, the whitepeople that owned us as slaves
still own a great deal of thetown and they have the last name
that I have and they look likeus.
They just look like the whitecounter, but they have the same
shape, they have the same nose,they have the same butt, they
(36:50):
have the same facial featuresand you're like.
These people are clearlyrelated to me, not just in
ownership because of name, but Ican see the ancestral rape from
this person who owns thebarbecue chain in the town.
So I'm like this isn't that faraway and I'm like I'm not even.
(37:13):
Why can't we acknowledge thatevery country has some bad
beginnings and some weirdhistory?
It doesn't negate the countryitself, it's just a part of the
tapestry of the country.
But when you choose to say that, the telling of my truth makes
you feel bad, because that'swhat the whole we're barring
(37:34):
critical race theory is about.
You're saying that my truthmakes you feel terrible, so I
don't get to say it out loud andI'm just like, ok, well then,
where do we stand?
Where do we go?
So let's put this in somepositives, because we don't want
it just to be this pity session.
You are making strides in thecommunity through a holistic and
(37:58):
psychotherapeutic approach.
What are the aims?
What do you see as the possiblesolutions for people, just to
even begin.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
If any of my clients see this, they're going to know
exactly what I'm about to say.
Right, they're going to knowexactly what I'm about to say.
I'm not fully answering yourquestion, but I want to say this
is play, play, play, play, playthat's a wonderful response
play, that's wonderful.
Play with your friends, playwith your lovers, play with your
(38:30):
parents, play with yoursiblings.
You didn't get to play, so play.
My main focus in my practice isquality of life and the
importance of play.
Because we don't get to play,we don't.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
There's this on Instagram we don't.
There's this thing, and I loveto follow it.
It's called Black Men whoFrolic Love that.
That was one of my favorites.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
It's so good, it's beautiful, and I was just like
this is so beautiful.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
And it makes me so happy, it makes me so sorry.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
I also saw another thing.
It was just like hang out withgirlfriends that tap into your
inner child and that's real, Ilove that Because some of my
best friends are the ones I cantake a nap with and just be
goofy with.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Goofy and silly.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
And eat sugary shit and it really it's very soothing
for the soul because we do goout here with a battle of armor
on us all the time, all the time, it's even like I would even
say for me as a personalexperience, the shit that I go
through and the fact that Idon't necessarily always can
allow myself to ask for help.
I don't remember the last time Itruly cried, To be honest, and
(39:36):
I I don't remember the last timeI truly cried, like to be
honest, Like and I'm not talkingabout, like you know, like a
little tear up here likeactually cried, Like I felt like
when I even I was packing up myapartment and just going
through all the memories that Ihad, you know, into this new
transition, I was like I waswaiting for a moment that I,
like I would want to break down.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Wait till you get to your forties.
You're going to cry all thetime Like I just.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
But I felt like, I felt like there, I do feel like
there is a part of me that knowsthat, like, like subconsciously
, what has been taught to me,especially as a strong black
woman is that we?
Don't cry.
Is that not necessarily that wedon't cry?
Is that if you cry you'll beweak?
And if you are weak you won'tbe able to move forward?
Speaker 3 (40:10):
So I think that I won't survive.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
So, just like I'm waiting for a moment in my life
where I don't have to work onsurvival mode and that has been
and then skipping thatdevelopment process of like this
we skip too fast.
My mom was a single mom.
My mom took care of us, butshe's working.
My grandmother was working, sowe pretty much developed our own
.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
Luckily we weren't bad kids and they passed on that
same mentality.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Luckily we weren't bad kids, we were bad kids.
Luckily, we weren't bad kids,we were good kids.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
We weren't on the street, but we didn't have the
option to be bad kids, Right,but I was working at 15.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
And we could say that in a crazy way.
Before you start me and myfriends, we say that with a
pride thing, Like oh, I've beenworking since I was 15.
But as I'm older, why the hellwas I working at 15.
?
You know what I mean.
Why did I feel the necessity tomake sure I go to the workforce
at 15?
Speaker 1 (40:59):
But I will tell you my mom, and again I think, again
we pass on.
And this is one of the reasonswhy I'm so glad we're having
these conversations, because Ireally think that our parents
try as they might.
Right, we need to give themmore credit than we are,
Absolutely.
Because they were really tryingto break some generational
(41:19):
traumas that were like theweight of Gibraltar.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Right, because we got our own problems, but they had
another set of problems.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
No, because I remember to your point right.
I remember one time I was leftoutside of a theater and
transportation wouldn't get meand so my mom had to come.
But it was like a 40-minutedrive and it was like midnight
in downtown and I was upsetbecause I got left and nobody
checked.
And I was upset because I'm theonly black girl I was the only
(41:51):
black performer period and ofcourse I'm the one that's left
on the steps of what's now whatthey would call the Staples
Center.
It's got a new name.
What's it now?
Crypto?
Thank you, them.
So I'm sitting there, you know,waiting outside and I'm calling
my mom and I'm, you know,saying you know, I can't believe
they left me.
My mom goes, stop cryingimmediately.
(42:11):
You'll be vulnerable and peoplemight you know you're a target.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
Don't cry.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
And I know that my mother was doing that out of
protection, because that is whatwas necessary in that moment.
But I also give her so muchgrace, because what else was she
supposed to give me?
Speaker 2 (42:33):
Right, because she already knew.
She already knew what it wouldlook like.
And it's a double-edged swordbecause, in knowing what you,
sitting there crying and beingvulnerable, would do to you,
even though she may have notwanted to give you that response
, she knew she had to because ofthe way that was involved in
those decisions and how hardthat must have been, and I think
(43:03):
that in our stopping thesegenerational traumas, we also
have to acknowledge what ourparents went through to put us
even in a different headspacewhere we could.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
What are we going to say, Actually?
Speaker 3 (43:16):
I have three things I'm going to say To that.
This is what I tell people allthe time when you look at the
things that your parents havedone to you that you look at as
the way in which they'vetraumatized, you, remember that
they have healed significantlymore than what they've put on
you.
When you can look at yourparents and see them as a human,
(43:37):
as a person, and you canacknowledge damn as much shit as
I have, as much trauma as Ihave, that means there's so much
more that they healed beforethey even got to me and that I'm
going to heal a significantamount of that before it gets to
my kids, but some of it isgoing to seep through to them.
There's a grace that you canoffer them Exactly and a love
that you can have for them.
The second thing I want to sayis to what you said when you
(43:59):
were saying you're waiting for amoment.
Stop waiting for the moment.
Choose to have it.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
Because you'll wait forever.
Speaker 3 (44:08):
Because your defenses are brilliant.
Your defenses are set up in away to keep you safe, and they
will keep you safe until theyknow they don't have to keep you
safe from that.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
So, instead of waiting for a moment to feel
that, choose to have it and setset it up.
Not only choose to have it, butset it up for yourself and
whatever it looks like foryourself but I don't know, and
that's the thing I think thatit's like.
But here's where the givingyourself to the permission to
play comes in into practice.
Because, play with it.
It's an unknown.
(44:44):
I know we are conditioned tosee unknowns as really scary
things, but in this case, anunknown with a permission to
play means multiple tries to getit right.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
Like a sandbox that you didn't get to play in right
Multiple times to find the toolsand I'll tell you, okay, this
is a perfect example.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
So I just started working for a new artist.
I work as a singer, so I juststarted working for a new artist
and, like you said, mycounterpart is my sis and I
trust her, and so all day wejust make stupid jokes, we make
stupid and we laugh all the time, and so for this run we were in
(45:28):
Vegas doing a residency.
I always have an agenda of 19things that I'm supposed to do,
because now I have free time andfor the first time in my damn
life, I just went to sleep.
And for the first four days Ifelt really guilty about just
going to sleep and I was like,maybe this is my body saying,
(45:51):
maybe you just need to sleep,because I never woke up feeling
like, oh, I slept too much.
I was like, oh you, and Irealized the reason why I was
sleeping so much was because,for the first time in a long
time on a job, I didn't feellike I needed to fight anybody.
I didn't feel like I needed tofight for my space or fight for
(46:14):
my voice or fight to be heard orfight for the, the money or
fight for any of it.
And this was the first time inworking in 20 plus years where I
felt like I don't really haveany battle here.
Things are nice, my coworkersare nice, my space is nice, I've
(46:34):
been given what I need.
It's taken me 25 freaking yearsto get here.
That's a whole notherconversation.
For the first time in a longtime, I felt like I could just
go to sleep and there wasnothing pressing and the world
(46:55):
wasn't going to end, and ifpeople called you know what
They'll call back.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
And I think you know, for the last thing that I
wanted to say, that kind ofleads into that when we're
trying to figure out how to healthat part of us, how to heal
the adultified child in us,right, and you'll hear
therapists say this kind of shitall the time, right, and half
the time when they say I'd belike, all right, yeah, we know
this, we know this, but I trulybelieve this.
When it comes to us, I trulybelieve us as black folks, one
of the biggest things, one ofthe things that will offer us
(47:25):
the most healing, is to heal ourchild self, is to go in and
look at our child self and seeall the moments.
We didn't get to play, wedidn't get to explore, we didn't
get to rest, we didn't get todo the things that children do.
Children get to rest.
We didn't Children get naps.
Children get to explore whatfeels good, what they need, how
(47:46):
to self-regulate Children aren'tjockeying for money at 15.
Right.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
Right.
Speaker 3 (47:51):
Children get to figure out how to cry, when, to
cry when it feels good, when itdoesn't.
Speaker 1 (47:56):
Children get to do that, and we're having this
conversation because we want thenext generation of black
children to do that, to get tobe children.
Speaker 3 (48:07):
Children, well, I think, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
I was just going to say the last little no, go ahead
.
Speaker 3 (48:12):
If you want to figure out where to start, start with
your child self and go talk toyour child self and see where
the wounds lie and start thereand see where the happiness lies
.
Absolutely See where the timesare, you're happy, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
Because the happiness is what we're trying to craft
in our adulthood.
If we don't go back to thetimes where we know we were
truly happy, how can we shape itin adulthood?
Speaker 2 (48:37):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Well, I just want to say, guys,all you guys out there, I hope
you guys enjoyed thisconversation on the
adultification bias of blackchildren.
You know we have Maya and wehave Nadege, and y'all know I
like to leave some type ofmessage at the end of my shows,
just because I feel like youhave to put out in the world
(48:58):
what you want to receive.
Absolutely.
So, maya, nadege, would youlike to leave a message about?
Okay, so I want to specify thisThings that you think can
rectify the adultification ofchildren, what would you give a
tip for?
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Me personally.
I think that I tried to openthis box, if you will, because I
wanted us to start havingconversations, and
adultification bias is not amonolith.
We all have our tailoredexperiences with this issue.
So my hope for this series andwhat it's brought to the public
and what it's brought to blackchildren now and black people
(49:45):
who once were children, is talkabout it, just talk about it.
Start by just talking about it.
It doesn't have to be solvedtoday.
It doesn't have to be solved.
Maybe it's not a solvable thing, but I think with awareness
will change it, because withawareness people will have more
(50:09):
of aware with all of what to do.
Speaker 3 (50:13):
so just start talking for me I would say play like
the real kind of play, like playwith your friends, play with
your lovers, play with yourfamily, play with your siblings,
play with everybody and talk toand love and hug and nurture
(50:35):
and kiss your child self everysecond that you can Find your
child self and love them the waythat they didn't get to be
loved and treat them like thechild that they are.
And play, play, play play.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
Also, we want to hear from you at Slap the Power what
are the experiences withadultification bias that you've
had?
What are the remedies that youfound that worked for you?
Here at this network, we are acommunity and we will solve our
issues by talking about themhonestly and by sharing the
(51:11):
solutions that work.
So we want to hear from youtruly.
And thank you for having thisplatform yes, absolutely,
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
Like you said, we are a family and it's very
important that we do have thesediscussions.
So if you heard anything or youhave any more questions, you
have any more comments, you canreach my at slap the power you
can reach in the dutch as well.
All of her information will beposted here.
Please like, subscribe and joinin, and that's it.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
That's all.
Speaker 2 (51:47):
That's it.
That's all is written by me,casey Carnage, and produced by
myself and Rick Barrio-Dill.
Associate producer Brie Corey.
Assistant producer LarissaDonahoe.
Audio and video engineering andstudio facilities provided by
Slap Studios LA, withdistribution through our
collective for social progressand cultural expression, slap
(52:08):
the Network.
If you have any ideas for ashow you want to hear or see,
please email us at info atslapphepowercom and, as always,
go to dazitdassallcom and signup there to make sure you will
never miss a thing.
See you next show.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.