November 5, 2024 • 34 mins
How long will we live in retirement? Will we be healthy? How long will we work? Will we have enough money? These are common, and heavy, questions we’d all like answered.
Self-described “Pension Geek” Debra Whitman, EVP and Chief Public Policy Officer with the 30 million-member strong AARP, joins ARA CEO Brian Graff for a discussion of her new book, The Second Fifty: Answers to the 7 Big Questions of Midlife and Beyond.
She describes all the things that need to happen to make it easier for people to age well in America and the AARP-supported policies and programs to make it happen.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
We're always surveying people and when we ask
people are you retired?
We get a huge percentage yes.
And then we ask are you stillworking?
A huge percentage of those thatjust said yes, they're retired
say yes, they're still working.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
DC Pension Geeks brings you exclusive
conversations with topretirement policymakers and
regulators in and aroundWashington DC.
Hosted by Brian Graff, anattorney, accountant, former
Capitol Hill staffer and CEO ofthe American Retirement
Association.
If you're looking for aninsider's view of all the twists
(00:34):
and turns that Washington takeson the road to ensuring a
secure retirement for millionsof Americans, you're in the
right place.
Series of DC Pension Geekspodcast.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Really fortunate to have with me today Deborah
Wimman, who is Senior Directorof Policy at AARP.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Executive Vice President and Chief Public
Policy Officer.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
That's a lot better title than what I came up with.
So thank you for correcting me,debra, and actually is it okay
I call you Deb, because I knowthat's pretty much what I've
called you for years.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Yes, of course my friends call me Deb and we have
been longtime friends.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
So charting the policy course for AARP is a huge
undertaking.
Aarp, as many of our listenersknow, is the largest association
in the entire world with, Ithink, over 50 million members.
Am I in the ballpark with thatOver 30.
Over 30 million?
It's bigger than Canada millionmembers.
Am I in the ballpark of thatOver 30.
(01:43):
Over 30 million?
I was-.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Bigger than Canada.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Rounding up, but more importantly, deb just published
a new book, the Second 50,answers to the Seven Big
Questions of Midlife and Beyond,which you can obviously find on
Amazon and other majorbooksellers, and it's a big hit.
(02:06):
Deb's been making the rounds.
I saw her on the Today Show,which has got to be a thrill.
I'm sure you've done some otherTV as well as radio and
podcasts.
You've been very busy and Iappreciate you taking the time
to talk with us today, so thanks.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Well, I am a pension geek, so I'm very delighted to
be part of the conversation.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
You are a pension geek.
Yes, you definitely qualify.
So, as our listeners know, welike to kind of get a little bit
of background about our guestsand why they ended up working in
the retirement policy field.
That you know, most of us kindof came across this by accident
(02:52):
and you know what's your story.
You kind of indicated when wewere talking before that maybe
you've been dreaming about thissince you were in grade school.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Not really dreaming about it since I was in grade
school, but I grew up in a smalltown in eastern Washington
state and my big dream was toget out of there and to travel
and to see the world.
And so I did my undergraduatedegree at Gonzaga University in
Spokane, washington, go Zags.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Great school.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
And they had a study abroad program in Florence,
italy.
That was just incredible and Iknew I had to graduate in four
years.
My parents couldn't pay formore than that, and so I looked
at what are the courses thatthey offered in Florence and I
picked my major based on that,and it was economics.
They had a whole bunch of greateconomics classes and I was
(03:40):
good at math.
I had a math minor and I justreally enjoyed thinking about
how we can make our societybetter, and so I ended up going
to graduate school at Syracuseto get my PhD and focus on
public policy.
It is the best public policyschool in the country.
(04:01):
But really it started because Iwanted to go live in Italy for
a year.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
That's okay, I mean that's.
I mean, you were young.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
What an answer for a 19-year-old is.
You couldn't.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Yeah, totally legitimate.
But I mean, I think thepositive part of that is what
you discovered was a desire tomake a difference right and to
make the world a better placethrough policy.
Not everyone sort of you know alot of people go to college and
they want to go to Florence andthen they want to make money so
they can move, have a house inLake Como.
(04:33):
I mean, you know, that's notwhere you, that's not the
direction he went.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
No house in Lake Como .
But the nice thing aboutSyracuse they, it was actually
an aging center.
The, the national Institute ofaging, had funded a research
center so we had a lot oflectures about aging and, um, I
really found, you know, lookingat the second half of life, like
I do in my book um isfascinating because it's all of
(04:57):
the decisions that you've madeacross your life, um and and
people are complex, um and uh,hugely varied.
So, um, I left Syracuse, wentto work at the social security
administration, did researchthere, um got a chance to go on
Capitol Hill, uh, as a fellow Um.
So I worked on the health,education, labor and pension
(05:20):
committee, the health committeeat the time, but I did the
Health Subcommittee and that wasduring Medicare Part D, and I
worked for Ted Kennedy and thenI ran the Senate Aging Committee
for five years and did a lot ofhearings on retirement stuff
and then have been here at AARPfor over a decade.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
Well, you've really contributed a lot to the
national discourse on the topicof aging and retirement and
health.
So what drove you to want towrite a book, and particularly
this book?
Speaker 1 (05:55):
So two things Even though I'd worked on aging for
25 years, I realized there wasstill a lot I didn't know and I
wanted to learn, and, moreimportantly, I had questions.
I wanted to learn for myself,and so I wrote down what are the
things that I want to know, andit was basic things like how
(06:16):
long am I going to live and willI be healthy?
And some more practical thingslike will I have have enough
money and how long will I work,and then some more scary things
like will I lose my memory orhow will I die, and so each of
those chapter is all the thingswe need to do to make it easier
(06:37):
to age well in America.
And really that could have beena full book in and of itself
and my mom still hasn't fullyread that chapter, but it is.
It's remarkable how hard it isto age in America and how many
(07:02):
holes there are that people fallinto, and so that's really been
my life's work is trying tofill those holes, but helping
people understand the secondhalf of their life is really
what this book is about.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
What do you think I mean?
Let's drill down that a littlebit.
So what do you think are thebiggest challenges that
Americans face as they are goinginto towards those retirement
years, those quote, unquoteretirement years?
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Several.
You know, again, each chapterfaces its own challenge.
So we have huge disparities inhow long we're going to live and
how healthy we're going to be20 years healthy we're going to
be 20 years difference in lifeexpectancy between counties in
America and people gettinghealth conditions 20 years
sooner in some states thanothers.
(07:54):
We have problems with peoplenot being able to save for
retirement.
I'm sure you've had lots ofguests talk about the fact that
half of Americans can't savethrough their paycheck.
We have problems.
We have no real long-term caresystem in America, even though
the number of people and theneeds are getting bigger and
(08:16):
bigger every day.
And yeah, I could go on and on.
So there isn't just one thingthat's facing us, and that's one
of the reasons why I have thesort of lay it out as different
chapters.
We also have a housing problem.
We don't build houses for thatare forever homes.
We build them for singlefamilies with kids, with lots of
stairs.
(08:36):
So you know there's there'sopportunities for the private
markets to solve these.
There's opportunities forindividuals to do better, and
then there's opportunities forthe private markets to solve
these.
There's opportunities forindividuals to do better, and
then there's opportunities forpolicymakers to make things
easier.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
And obviously long-term care and the adjacent
medical care issues associatedwith that are real challenges
for American families becauseit's gotten so expensive for
American families.
Because it's gotten soexpensive, there's accessibility
issues, as I know, you know,and oftentimes that burden falls
(09:14):
on family members, whichfurther kind of creates a
cascading issue in terms of theeconomic impact of those
challenges.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah, we have many, many family members who have to
quit their job if their momfalls and breaks their hip
because we just don't have asystem.
And the cost of care is reallystunning.
The average nursing home isover $100,000.
Memory care is easily $200,000.
(09:42):
Home care is close to that.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
And if you look at how much people either have in
many Americans who lack accessto a workplace savings program
and I do want to touch on thatwith you in a little bit.
But I've always, you know, whenI was on the Hill since then,
because when I was on the Hill Iworked on HIPAA.
I don't know if you knew that Iwas on the Hill, I worked on
(10:27):
HIPAA.
I don't know if you knew thatthat it was remarkable to me how
little real effort has beenaccomplished.
Let's put this a lot ofconversations about the issues
of cost and healthcare, butCongress really hasn't
accomplished a lot yet, or todate, on that issue.
And I think you can't addressone without the other, don't you
?
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Yeah, and I'll say on the issue of healthcare costs,
there was a huge win a couple ofyears ago that AARP.
I'm really proud of how hard wefought and we got punched by
the pharmaceutical industry fordoing so, but how how much it
took to get the ability tonegotiate prices by the
(11:12):
government in order to reduce.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
And that was just a fairly limited list, right, I
mean fairly limited list, but itsaved billions and billions of
dollars because, unlike everyother country out there, we
don't negotiate.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
So we pay two, three, four times what other countries
pay for the cost ofprescription drugs.
So so there you know again.
It's not that nothing ishappening to improve our
policies towards demographicchange, but I'm there's a,
there's a lot more, there's alot more that needs to be done,
and I'm there's a lot more.
There's a lot more that needsto be done, and I'm an impatient
(11:48):
person.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
I'm with you.
I'm the same way, deb, and Iknow that this PBM legislation
has been percolating a little,particularly in the Senate, for
a while and I'm sure, like you,hopeful that it makes progress
but impatient that they have not.
(12:09):
You know, everyone I talk tohas had an awful experience
where they've had to buysomething that, for whatever
reason, wasn't covered by theirinsurance company, because they
went to the wrong pharmacy andthe price for it is just
ridiculous, like I got COVID andthe pharmacy made a mistake and
(12:33):
didn't file correctly the claimbut they wanted to charge me
$1,438 for Paxlovid.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
And you're sick and you know you can't wait a lot of
days to take it Right.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Right and so Right, exactly, but that's I mean at
least.
I mean I was in a positionwhere I could, it was urgent, I
had to do it, but there are alot of people who can't do that
and that's just ridiculous.
For something that you know, ifI went to Canada it would cost
$75.
Anyway, so the problem withcost and expenses is another
(13:15):
reason why a lot of people arere-evaluating what retirement
means.
Right, you know the fact thatthere are these disparities,
that there are these issues thatcome up.
You know we have this sort of Ithink we've had this sort of
glorified vision of whatconstitutes retirement, namely
(13:39):
that I go to work turn 65,magically, I walk out of the
office with my box, you see thecommercials, particularly the
financial services companies,and I go and play golf or I go
on a boat.
And the truth is most peopleeither can't afford to do that
(14:04):
because of costs or issues thatcome up or, frankly, they don't
want to Do.
We need to rethink whatretirement really is.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
So I lead our research team here at ARP and
we're always surveying peopleand when we ask people are you
retired?
We get a huge percentage yes.
And then we ask are you stillworking?
A huge percentage of those thatjust said yes, they're retired,
say yes, they're still working.
Yes, so what is retirement issort of changing in people's
(14:39):
mind, and part of that is I'vequit my 40-year career and now
I'm doing some gig work I'vealways been passionate about.
(15:02):
So work and retirement.
We have twice as many people 55and older who are working or
are looking for work than we didin the 1990s.
So people are working longerand many are doing it because
they love their job and arereally enjoying the work that
they do and they get value andpurpose and they have a social
(15:25):
connection to the people thatthey work with All things that
improve health and we can talkabout that.
But other people are doing itbecause they have to.
So I spoke to one woman who hadretired from her job as a
medical tech and Cindy hadneeded some dental work.
(15:47):
Medicare doesn't cover yourteeth or your eyes or ears three
things that tend to wear outwhen we age but not covered by
Medicare, and so she blewthrough a big chunk of her
retirement account and thenneeded some car repairs and blew
through the rest of it, and soshe's working very long hours on
(16:08):
her feet and can't even pay forthe down payment of a rental
unit.
She's living in a hotel.
So the reasons that people areworking longer really vary and
people's experience of whetherthey've set themselves up in
(16:28):
retirement.
A lot of people don't check howmuch their Social Security
benefit will be and expect thatto be enough to live on.
But your Social Security checkgets your health care premiums
taken out of them and so you'reyou're living on what's left and
(16:50):
by the time you, you know, payyour mortgage or rent and other
out-of-pocket health costs andother things.
It really doesn't go as far asmany people had dreamed that it
might that it might.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
So two, two, two things I want to follow up on
with respect to what you said.
First is the issue of mentalhealth and, um, we, that was a
big part of what you talkedabout in your book.
Um, it's not something that wespent a lot of time talking
about more certainly so now thanwe've ever done before, but
(17:23):
still certainly nothing like thesame level of attention
physical health gets to.
Why is it so important and whatis working part of it, or what
other steps can people take toensure that their mental state
(17:45):
is as strong as their physicalstate going into retirement?
Speaker 1 (17:50):
So I'll take it in a couple of different directions.
I'm glad you asked this for mebecause I'm really passionate
about these issues.
I grew up with my grandmotherin my home.
My mom was her caregiver for 50years and my grandmother had
schizophrenia.
So I feel like we don't talkenough about mental health in
this country, and particularlymental health as we age.
So I'll say one thing Manypeople, as they age, lose the
(18:16):
social ties, either becausethey're less able to get around,
because they have physicalissues, or maybe their best
friends were in the office andwhen they retired they lost some
of those connections.
So isolation and loneliness isas detrimental to our health as
smoking 15 cigarettes a day, andso finding ways to stay
(18:40):
connected to others is reallyimportant, and that can be done
through volunteering.
It can be done talking topeople in the checkout line or
even waving at people from yourporch.
All have been shown to increasepeople's feeling of connections
and increase their mentalhealth and physical health.
We also know that depression isbarely screened, even though
(19:04):
it's supposed to be part of theMedicare screening.
Only 6% of doctors actually dothe depression screening, and
some of that is, I think, ageist, where we view people should be
depressed when they're olderbecause they're old, when the
data shows, actually, ourhappiness goes way up as we age.
We're twice as happy in our 80sas we were in our 40s.
(19:26):
We're at the bottom of thehappiness curve, really.
And then lastly and I just ifthere's anybody listening that
needs it, please understandthere's a suicide hotline.
The rates of suicide amongolder adults, particularly older
(19:47):
men, older men over 75, haverates of suicide that are twice
as high as teenage boys, whichwe know is a crisis in this
country.
And so all of these thingswhether you're feeling lonely
and isolated, which leads todepression, which leads to
(20:09):
suicidal thoughts, you can gethelp and it's something that we
need to take seriously from ourfamily and loved ones and make
sure we check in on them, andeven just neighbors, you know,
just showing that you care canmake a huge difference.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
So you said something that you know you talk about,
but I think it's going to besurprising to people because it
isn't talked about frankly atall, and that's the suicide
rates for older individuals andparticularly older men.
Has there been research kind oftrying to attribute the causes
(20:49):
of this?
Speaker 1 (20:51):
It's a hard thing to do research on and particularly
one of the problems is that manyolder people are more likely to
actually die by suicide becausethey have guns and know how to
use them.
So I did talk to an expert Ijust wrote an op-ed on this
(21:11):
issue that you know access tofirearms, loneliness, all of
these things are compoundingevents for older people, and
some, you know, have fear ofdementia or poor health that may
or not be true or feel burdenedor can't afford the care that
(21:34):
they need.
Again, there's lots of reasons.
I don't think it's.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
One.
You know, one individual Ispoke to about this indicated a
feeling of a lack of purpose,that there's somewhat societal
that they've been driven to.
You are represented or youreflect the work that you do,
and when you stop doing the workthat you principally do the
(22:01):
fact that you do and when youstop doing the work that you
principally do, the fact thatyou don't have it anymore
something is lost, that sense ofpurpose that can exacerbate the
loneliness that you're talkingabout.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Yeah, purpose and meaning are also really good
promoters of good health.
So if you have a sense ofpurpose, you live healthier and
you live longer.
And we can get purpose from ourwork and many people did
throughout their careers.
But you can get purpose fromvolunteering.
(22:34):
You can get purpose from caringfor a pet or taking care of
somebody else that needs help.
You know there's even peoplehave been connected to plants
and greenery of.
You know I need to water myplant every year.
So to finding out again what'swhat's purposeful in your life
(22:56):
is a good thing to connect to.
There was a big few years ago.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
I guess it was this big a few years ago.
I guess it's been more than afew years, maybe 20-ish years
ago.
There was this whole discussionabout phased retirement and
this notion of transitioningfrom full-time to some type of
part-time role, but it seemslike employers have gotten away
from that and there has beenissues around workforce
(23:25):
management and efficiencies thathave taken a lot of very
talented people with a lot ofexperience.
Do you feel the employers?
(23:46):
Corporate America as a generalmatter, hasn't really figured
out the best way to utilizethose assets so that they're
getting the benefit of it, butalso the people that want to
work on a phased basis or apart-time basis have that
opportunity as well.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
So we need to work on the demand side.
We need to work on employers tomake sure there are jobs for
older people that want to worklonger or that need to work
longer.
We've been doing a projectcalled Living Learning, earning
Longer, where we've been workingwith over 100 companies to
think about themulti-generational workforce and
to get them to think aboutthings that happen throughout
(24:25):
the life course, like caregiving, that can happen when you're
younger or older, the need forworkplace flexibility.
The flexibility since COVIDhave brought tons of people who
had disabilities or caregivingresponsibilities back into the
workplace.
And then we also show them thatthere's a bottom line argument
for this in that firms that havemulti-generational teams are
(24:51):
actually more productive thanones that don't.
And so you know, pairing wisdomand experience with of older
workers with younger workersthat may bring in new ways of
doing things or new ideas isactually a real win for
companies.
And so I think helpingcompanies to be able to think
(25:12):
across tenure, across age, allof these things is something
we're going to see more and moreof, because as the baby boomers
retire, we're going to needmore workers.
We're going to need to keeppeople working longer.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Absolutely really highlights the critical
importance of Social Security,which is a cornerstone issue for
AARP.
I'm not sure there's a stronger, louder champion for our Social
Security system than yourorganization.
(25:57):
Don't want to get into how tofix social security.
Everyone wants to talk aboutthat.
What I want to talk about isthat we need to fix social
security.
And are you surprised, as I am,that other than sort of very
(26:23):
superficial conversations aroundthe issue of the fact that
social security is important,there isn't a cry to fix what is
, frankly, our nation's Numberone program for getting people
out of poverty, by far the mostsuccessful anti-poverty program,
by leaps and bounds better thananything the government has
(26:47):
ever done.
And, and, and, and.
What can we do about to to kindof energize seniors to say, hey
, we're not going to tell youhow to fix it, but you got to
fix it?
Speaker 1 (27:03):
And we've been doing that, as you know, brian, for
years.
And in fact, you know, if weask our older adults what is the
most important thing for themas they're voting, social
security is at the very, verytop Medicare as well and we push
the candidates on these issuesbecause it is so important at
(27:27):
the time.
But you know, we're more than adecade and a half since, and in
2034, the year I turned 64,either everyone's benefits get
(27:52):
cut by about 20% or Congress andthe White House need to act,
and ideally before that, becausepeople need to be able to plan
ahead to whatever changes willcome.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Well, I mean the way they could act.
I mean one way they would actwhich I don't, you know, I'm, I
think is wrong, is that theywould just plug it and, you know
, write a check for $400 billion, which is roughly what it would
take to fill the hole beginningin 2024.
I think half of I saw some datahalf of seniors, more than half
(28:29):
of seniors, rely on SocialSecurity for more than half of
their retirement income.
It is foundational to oursystem.
Forget about 401k or definedbenefit plans.
Social security is a retirementplan that every working
American has.
(28:50):
It's, it's the basis for, forour entire system in retirement.
It's absolutely critical and Iappreciate AARP's efforts to get
folks' attention, but I think Idon't know right now.
(29:12):
It doesn't seem like across allthe elections, not just
presidential, there doesn't seemto be a lot of conversation
about the need to address this.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
We need a Congress and a White House that's going
to take the issue seriously andput it on its agenda and work
together.
This has to be dealt in atransparent way so that the
American public are part of theconversation.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
And in a bipartisan way.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
And in a bipartisan way.
So you know we need Congress tobe able to work together on
issues, so we will continue topush and lift up the voice of
our members.
We need to make sure that theprogram is as solvent, not just
for current retirees, but forfuture generations as well.
(30:04):
My kids are going to need it.
So this is this is you're rightOne of the most incredible
programs that has ever beendeveloped, in that it's it's
kept millions of people, andit's not just retirees, it's
people with disabilities, it'sfamilies with kids who've lost a
parent millions of people andit's not just retirees, it's
people with disabilities, it'sfamilies with kids who've lost a
parent out of poverty.
(30:25):
And so we will continue to push.
I will continue to push andwe're very passionate about
these issues.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
So last question Does corporate America value
appreciate the economic impactthat seniors, retirees, have in
our society and in terms ofstimulating the economy?
I sometimes I think many peoplesometimes feel like all of the
(31:01):
energy commercially is aroundyounger individuals.
Some kind of retirement, phasedor otherwise, presents to our
economy.
What's your feeling in terms ofgetting corporate America to
(31:33):
understand the value thatseniors bring, not just in the
workplace but also from aneconomic standpoint?
Speaker 1 (31:40):
So we talked a little bit about the workplace and how
valuable their older workersare and the need to continue to
hire them and to train them.
But as consumers, people over50 spend almost 50 cents of
every dollar in America.
They also contribute a hugeamount of time.
Wow, that was a big.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Thing.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Mic drop.
We have a report called thelongevity economy and I can show
you, sector by sector, how mucholder adults help drive the
economy, both through theirdirect payments but also
creating jobs and indirectoutput.
And so and that's true all overthe world, as we see older
(32:25):
consumers, these aren't justretirees it's 50 plus from
AARP's perspective, but it'sdriving certainly more than its
share of healthcare dollars, butalso in technology, in
financial services.
But also in technology infinancial services.
(32:46):
And you're right, we don't seecorporate America thinking
through what are the productsand services that older adults
need in order to manage theirlife, make the technology useful
for them, and companies that dotake the time to be thoughtful
actually can do really, reallywell in the marketplace.
And again, if they do it throughageist stereotypes, where it's
(33:08):
old, it's, you know, beige,colored, um um products and and
ugly shoes, um, you know, someof the biggest shoe companies
that I see growing are the onesthat were, that have arch
support and super comfortable.
And you see, older people wantnice shoes that look pretty too,
(33:30):
um, or you know, I I love mycar.
It's sort of the seat movesback when I get in or out of it,
and so I have just a little bitof extra ease in doing that.
There's all kinds of universaldesign features that aren't just
good for older people but aregood for all consumers.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Well, on that, I think, note that a lot of people
should be listening to.
I want to thank you, deb, foryour time today.
Congratulations on your book,much success.
I know it's already beensuccessful, but I hope it
stimulates this podcast,stimulates some more sales,
because it's a great book.
And please keep on fighting thefight because what you're doing
is very important.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
And can I share one last thing?
All of the proceeds go toBenefit AARP Foundation and
lowerer Adults.
So buy not just your own copy,but buy a couple for our friends
to help out our foundation.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
That's a great idea.
Thank you, Deb.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Thanks, brian, thanks for having me, thank you.
We're always surveying people and when we ask
people are you retired?
We get a huge percentage yes.
And then we ask are you stillworking?
A huge percentage of those thatjust said yes, they're retired
say yes, they're still working.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
DC Pension Geeks brings you exclusive
conversations with topretirement policymakers and
regulators in and aroundWashington DC.
Hosted by Brian Graff, anattorney, accountant, former
Capitol Hill staffer and CEO ofthe American Retirement
Association.
If you're looking for aninsider's view of all the twists
(00:34):
and turns that Washington takeson the road to ensuring a
secure retirement for millionsof Americans, you're in the
right place.
Series of DC Pension Geekspodcast.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Really fortunate to have with me today Deborah
Wimman, who is Senior Directorof Policy at AARP.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Executive Vice President and Chief Public
Policy Officer.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
That's a lot better title than what I came up with.
So thank you for correcting me,debra, and actually is it okay
I call you Deb, because I knowthat's pretty much what I've
called you for years.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Yes, of course my friends call me Deb and we have
been longtime friends.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
So charting the policy course for AARP is a huge
undertaking.
Aarp, as many of our listenersknow, is the largest association
in the entire world with, Ithink, over 50 million members.
Am I in the ballpark with thatOver 30.
Over 30 million?
It's bigger than Canada millionmembers.
Am I in the ballpark of thatOver 30.
(01:43):
Over 30 million?
I was-.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Bigger than Canada.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Rounding up, but more importantly, deb just published
a new book, the Second 50,answers to the Seven Big
Questions of Midlife and Beyond,which you can obviously find on
Amazon and other majorbooksellers, and it's a big hit.
(02:06):
Deb's been making the rounds.
I saw her on the Today Show,which has got to be a thrill.
I'm sure you've done some otherTV as well as radio and
podcasts.
You've been very busy and Iappreciate you taking the time
to talk with us today, so thanks.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Well, I am a pension geek, so I'm very delighted to
be part of the conversation.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
You are a pension geek.
Yes, you definitely qualify.
So, as our listeners know, welike to kind of get a little bit
of background about our guestsand why they ended up working in
the retirement policy field.
That you know, most of us kindof came across this by accident
(02:52):
and you know what's your story.
You kind of indicated when wewere talking before that maybe
you've been dreaming about thissince you were in grade school.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Not really dreaming about it since I was in grade
school, but I grew up in a smalltown in eastern Washington
state and my big dream was toget out of there and to travel
and to see the world.
And so I did my undergraduatedegree at Gonzaga University in
Spokane, washington, go Zags.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Great school.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
And they had a study abroad program in Florence,
italy.
That was just incredible and Iknew I had to graduate in four
years.
My parents couldn't pay formore than that, and so I looked
at what are the courses thatthey offered in Florence and I
picked my major based on that,and it was economics.
They had a whole bunch of greateconomics classes and I was
(03:40):
good at math.
I had a math minor and I justreally enjoyed thinking about
how we can make our societybetter, and so I ended up going
to graduate school at Syracuseto get my PhD and focus on
public policy.
It is the best public policyschool in the country.
(04:01):
But really it started because Iwanted to go live in Italy for
a year.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
That's okay, I mean that's.
I mean, you were young.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
What an answer for a 19-year-old is.
You couldn't.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Yeah, totally legitimate.
But I mean, I think thepositive part of that is what
you discovered was a desire tomake a difference right and to
make the world a better placethrough policy.
Not everyone sort of you know alot of people go to college and
they want to go to Florence andthen they want to make money so
they can move, have a house inLake Como.
(04:33):
I mean, you know, that's notwhere you, that's not the
direction he went.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
No house in Lake Como .
But the nice thing aboutSyracuse they, it was actually
an aging center.
The, the national Institute ofaging, had funded a research
center so we had a lot oflectures about aging and, um, I
really found, you know, lookingat the second half of life, like
I do in my book um isfascinating because it's all of
(04:57):
the decisions that you've madeacross your life, um and and
people are complex, um and uh,hugely varied.
So, um, I left Syracuse, wentto work at the social security
administration, did researchthere, um got a chance to go on
Capitol Hill, uh, as a fellow Um.
So I worked on the health,education, labor and pension
(05:20):
committee, the health committeeat the time, but I did the
Health Subcommittee and that wasduring Medicare Part D, and I
worked for Ted Kennedy and thenI ran the Senate Aging Committee
for five years and did a lot ofhearings on retirement stuff
and then have been here at AARPfor over a decade.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
Well, you've really contributed a lot to the
national discourse on the topicof aging and retirement and
health.
So what drove you to want towrite a book, and particularly
this book?
Speaker 1 (05:55):
So two things Even though I'd worked on aging for
25 years, I realized there wasstill a lot I didn't know and I
wanted to learn, and, moreimportantly, I had questions.
I wanted to learn for myself,and so I wrote down what are the
things that I want to know, andit was basic things like how
(06:16):
long am I going to live and willI be healthy?
And some more practical thingslike will I have have enough
money and how long will I work,and then some more scary things
like will I lose my memory orhow will I die, and so each of
those chapter is all the thingswe need to do to make it easier
(06:37):
to age well in America.
And really that could have beena full book in and of itself
and my mom still hasn't fullyread that chapter, but it is.
It's remarkable how hard it isto age in America and how many
(07:02):
holes there are that people fallinto, and so that's really been
my life's work is trying tofill those holes, but helping
people understand the secondhalf of their life is really
what this book is about.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
What do you think I mean?
Let's drill down that a littlebit.
So what do you think are thebiggest challenges that
Americans face as they are goinginto towards those retirement
years, those quote, unquoteretirement years?
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Several.
You know, again, each chapterfaces its own challenge.
So we have huge disparities inhow long we're going to live and
how healthy we're going to be20 years healthy we're going to
be 20 years difference in lifeexpectancy between counties in
America and people gettinghealth conditions 20 years
sooner in some states thanothers.
(07:54):
We have problems with peoplenot being able to save for
retirement.
I'm sure you've had lots ofguests talk about the fact that
half of Americans can't savethrough their paycheck.
We have problems.
We have no real long-term caresystem in America, even though
the number of people and theneeds are getting bigger and
(08:16):
bigger every day.
And yeah, I could go on and on.
So there isn't just one thingthat's facing us, and that's one
of the reasons why I have thesort of lay it out as different
chapters.
We also have a housing problem.
We don't build houses for thatare forever homes.
We build them for singlefamilies with kids, with lots of
stairs.
(08:36):
So you know there's there'sopportunities for the private
markets to solve these.
There's opportunities forindividuals to do better, and
then there's opportunities forthe private markets to solve
these.
There's opportunities forindividuals to do better, and
then there's opportunities forpolicymakers to make things
easier.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
And obviously long-term care and the adjacent
medical care issues associatedwith that are real challenges
for American families becauseit's gotten so expensive for
American families.
Because it's gotten soexpensive, there's accessibility
issues, as I know, you know,and oftentimes that burden falls
(09:14):
on family members, whichfurther kind of creates a
cascading issue in terms of theeconomic impact of those
challenges.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah, we have many, many family members who have to
quit their job if their momfalls and breaks their hip
because we just don't have asystem.
And the cost of care is reallystunning.
The average nursing home isover $100,000.
Memory care is easily $200,000.
(09:42):
Home care is close to that.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
And if you look at how much people either have in
many Americans who lack accessto a workplace savings program
and I do want to touch on thatwith you in a little bit.
But I've always, you know, whenI was on the Hill since then,
because when I was on the Hill Iworked on HIPAA.
I don't know if you knew that Iwas on the Hill, I worked on
(10:27):
HIPAA.
I don't know if you knew thatthat it was remarkable to me how
little real effort has beenaccomplished.
Let's put this a lot ofconversations about the issues
of cost and healthcare, butCongress really hasn't
accomplished a lot yet, or todate, on that issue.
And I think you can't addressone without the other, don't you
?
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Yeah, and I'll say on the issue of healthcare costs,
there was a huge win a couple ofyears ago that AARP.
I'm really proud of how hard wefought and we got punched by
the pharmaceutical industry fordoing so, but how how much it
took to get the ability tonegotiate prices by the
(11:12):
government in order to reduce.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
And that was just a fairly limited list, right, I
mean fairly limited list, but itsaved billions and billions of
dollars because, unlike everyother country out there, we
don't negotiate.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
So we pay two, three, four times what other countries
pay for the cost ofprescription drugs.
So so there you know again.
It's not that nothing ishappening to improve our
policies towards demographicchange, but I'm there's a,
there's a lot more, there's alot more that needs to be done,
and I'm there's a lot more.
There's a lot more that needsto be done, and I'm an impatient
(11:48):
person.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
I'm with you.
I'm the same way, deb, and Iknow that this PBM legislation
has been percolating a little,particularly in the Senate, for
a while and I'm sure, like you,hopeful that it makes progress
but impatient that they have not.
(12:09):
You know, everyone I talk tohas had an awful experience
where they've had to buysomething that, for whatever
reason, wasn't covered by theirinsurance company, because they
went to the wrong pharmacy andthe price for it is just
ridiculous, like I got COVID andthe pharmacy made a mistake and
(12:33):
didn't file correctly the claimbut they wanted to charge me
$1,438 for Paxlovid.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
And you're sick and you know you can't wait a lot of
days to take it Right.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Right and so Right, exactly, but that's I mean at
least.
I mean I was in a positionwhere I could, it was urgent, I
had to do it, but there are alot of people who can't do that
and that's just ridiculous.
For something that you know, ifI went to Canada it would cost
$75.
Anyway, so the problem withcost and expenses is another
(13:15):
reason why a lot of people arere-evaluating what retirement
means.
Right, you know the fact thatthere are these disparities,
that there are these issues thatcome up.
You know we have this sort of Ithink we've had this sort of
glorified vision of whatconstitutes retirement, namely
(13:39):
that I go to work turn 65,magically, I walk out of the
office with my box, you see thecommercials, particularly the
financial services companies,and I go and play golf or I go
on a boat.
And the truth is most peopleeither can't afford to do that
(14:04):
because of costs or issues thatcome up or, frankly, they don't
want to Do.
We need to rethink whatretirement really is.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
So I lead our research team here at ARP and
we're always surveying peopleand when we ask people are you
retired?
We get a huge percentage yes.
And then we ask are you stillworking?
A huge percentage of those thatjust said yes, they're retired,
say yes, they're still working.
Yes, so what is retirement issort of changing in people's
(14:39):
mind, and part of that is I'vequit my 40-year career and now
I'm doing some gig work I'vealways been passionate about.
(15:02):
So work and retirement.
We have twice as many people 55and older who are working or
are looking for work than we didin the 1990s.
So people are working longerand many are doing it because
they love their job and arereally enjoying the work that
they do and they get value andpurpose and they have a social
(15:25):
connection to the people thatthey work with All things that
improve health and we can talkabout that.
But other people are doing itbecause they have to.
So I spoke to one woman who hadretired from her job as a
medical tech and Cindy hadneeded some dental work.
(15:47):
Medicare doesn't cover yourteeth or your eyes or ears three
things that tend to wear outwhen we age but not covered by
Medicare, and so she blewthrough a big chunk of her
retirement account and thenneeded some car repairs and blew
through the rest of it, and soshe's working very long hours on
(16:08):
her feet and can't even pay forthe down payment of a rental
unit.
She's living in a hotel.
So the reasons that people areworking longer really vary and
people's experience of whetherthey've set themselves up in
(16:28):
retirement.
A lot of people don't check howmuch their Social Security
benefit will be and expect thatto be enough to live on.
But your Social Security checkgets your health care premiums
taken out of them and so you'reyou're living on what's left and
(16:50):
by the time you, you know, payyour mortgage or rent and other
out-of-pocket health costs andother things.
It really doesn't go as far asmany people had dreamed that it
might that it might.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
So two, two, two things I want to follow up on
with respect to what you said.
First is the issue of mentalhealth and, um, we, that was a
big part of what you talkedabout in your book.
Um, it's not something that wespent a lot of time talking
about more certainly so now thanwe've ever done before, but
(17:23):
still certainly nothing like thesame level of attention
physical health gets to.
Why is it so important and whatis working part of it, or what
other steps can people take toensure that their mental state
(17:45):
is as strong as their physicalstate going into retirement?
Speaker 1 (17:50):
So I'll take it in a couple of different directions.
I'm glad you asked this for mebecause I'm really passionate
about these issues.
I grew up with my grandmotherin my home.
My mom was her caregiver for 50years and my grandmother had
schizophrenia.
So I feel like we don't talkenough about mental health in
this country, and particularlymental health as we age.
So I'll say one thing Manypeople, as they age, lose the
(18:16):
social ties, either becausethey're less able to get around,
because they have physicalissues, or maybe their best
friends were in the office andwhen they retired they lost some
of those connections.
So isolation and loneliness isas detrimental to our health as
smoking 15 cigarettes a day, andso finding ways to stay
(18:40):
connected to others is reallyimportant, and that can be done
through volunteering.
It can be done talking topeople in the checkout line or
even waving at people from yourporch.
All have been shown to increasepeople's feeling of connections
and increase their mentalhealth and physical health.
We also know that depression isbarely screened, even though
(19:04):
it's supposed to be part of theMedicare screening.
Only 6% of doctors actually dothe depression screening, and
some of that is, I think, ageist, where we view people should be
depressed when they're olderbecause they're old, when the
data shows, actually, ourhappiness goes way up as we age.
We're twice as happy in our 80sas we were in our 40s.
(19:26):
We're at the bottom of thehappiness curve, really.
And then lastly and I just ifthere's anybody listening that
needs it, please understandthere's a suicide hotline.
The rates of suicide amongolder adults, particularly older
(19:47):
men, older men over 75, haverates of suicide that are twice
as high as teenage boys, whichwe know is a crisis in this
country.
And so all of these thingswhether you're feeling lonely
and isolated, which leads todepression, which leads to
(20:09):
suicidal thoughts, you can gethelp and it's something that we
need to take seriously from ourfamily and loved ones and make
sure we check in on them, andeven just neighbors, you know,
just showing that you care canmake a huge difference.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
So you said something that you know you talk about,
but I think it's going to besurprising to people because it
isn't talked about frankly atall, and that's the suicide
rates for older individuals andparticularly older men.
Has there been research kind oftrying to attribute the causes
(20:49):
of this?
Speaker 1 (20:51):
It's a hard thing to do research on and particularly
one of the problems is that manyolder people are more likely to
actually die by suicide becausethey have guns and know how to
use them.
So I did talk to an expert Ijust wrote an op-ed on this
(21:11):
issue that you know access tofirearms, loneliness, all of
these things are compoundingevents for older people, and
some, you know, have fear ofdementia or poor health that may
or not be true or feel burdenedor can't afford the care that
(21:34):
they need.
Again, there's lots of reasons.
I don't think it's.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
One.
You know, one individual Ispoke to about this indicated a
feeling of a lack of purpose,that there's somewhat societal
that they've been driven to.
You are represented or youreflect the work that you do,
and when you stop doing the workthat you principally do the
(22:01):
fact that you do and when youstop doing the work that you
principally do, the fact thatyou don't have it anymore
something is lost, that sense ofpurpose that can exacerbate the
loneliness that you're talkingabout.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Yeah, purpose and meaning are also really good
promoters of good health.
So if you have a sense ofpurpose, you live healthier and
you live longer.
And we can get purpose from ourwork and many people did
throughout their careers.
But you can get purpose fromvolunteering.
(22:34):
You can get purpose from caringfor a pet or taking care of
somebody else that needs help.
You know there's even peoplehave been connected to plants
and greenery of.
You know I need to water myplant every year.
So to finding out again what'swhat's purposeful in your life
(22:56):
is a good thing to connect to.
There was a big few years ago.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
I guess it was this big a few years ago.
I guess it's been more than afew years, maybe 20-ish years
ago.
There was this whole discussionabout phased retirement and
this notion of transitioningfrom full-time to some type of
part-time role, but it seemslike employers have gotten away
from that and there has beenissues around workforce
(23:25):
management and efficiencies thathave taken a lot of very
talented people with a lot ofexperience.
Do you feel the employers?
(23:46):
Corporate America as a generalmatter, hasn't really figured
out the best way to utilizethose assets so that they're
getting the benefit of it, butalso the people that want to
work on a phased basis or apart-time basis have that
opportunity as well.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
So we need to work on the demand side.
We need to work on employers tomake sure there are jobs for
older people that want to worklonger or that need to work
longer.
We've been doing a projectcalled Living Learning, earning
Longer, where we've been workingwith over 100 companies to
think about themulti-generational workforce and
to get them to think aboutthings that happen throughout
(24:25):
the life course, like caregiving, that can happen when you're
younger or older, the need forworkplace flexibility.
The flexibility since COVIDhave brought tons of people who
had disabilities or caregivingresponsibilities back into the
workplace.
And then we also show them thatthere's a bottom line argument
for this in that firms that havemulti-generational teams are
(24:51):
actually more productive thanones that don't.
And so you know, pairing wisdomand experience with of older
workers with younger workersthat may bring in new ways of
doing things or new ideas isactually a real win for
companies.
And so I think helpingcompanies to be able to think
(25:12):
across tenure, across age, allof these things is something
we're going to see more and moreof, because as the baby boomers
retire, we're going to needmore workers.
We're going to need to keeppeople working longer.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Absolutely really highlights the critical
importance of Social Security,which is a cornerstone issue for
AARP.
I'm not sure there's a stronger, louder champion for our Social
Security system than yourorganization.
(25:57):
Don't want to get into how tofix social security.
Everyone wants to talk aboutthat.
What I want to talk about isthat we need to fix social
security.
And are you surprised, as I am,that other than sort of very
(26:23):
superficial conversations aroundthe issue of the fact that
social security is important,there isn't a cry to fix what is
, frankly, our nation's Numberone program for getting people
out of poverty, by far the mostsuccessful anti-poverty program,
by leaps and bounds better thananything the government has
(26:47):
ever done.
And, and, and, and.
What can we do about to to kindof energize seniors to say, hey
, we're not going to tell youhow to fix it, but you got to
fix it?
Speaker 1 (27:03):
And we've been doing that, as you know, brian, for
years.
And in fact, you know, if weask our older adults what is the
most important thing for themas they're voting, social
security is at the very, verytop Medicare as well and we push
the candidates on these issuesbecause it is so important at
(27:27):
the time.
But you know, we're more than adecade and a half since, and in
2034, the year I turned 64,either everyone's benefits get
(27:52):
cut by about 20% or Congress andthe White House need to act,
and ideally before that, becausepeople need to be able to plan
ahead to whatever changes willcome.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Well, I mean the way they could act.
I mean one way they would actwhich I don't, you know, I'm, I
think is wrong, is that theywould just plug it and, you know
, write a check for $400 billion, which is roughly what it would
take to fill the hole beginningin 2024.
I think half of I saw some datahalf of seniors, more than half
(28:29):
of seniors, rely on SocialSecurity for more than half of
their retirement income.
It is foundational to oursystem.
Forget about 401k or definedbenefit plans.
Social security is a retirementplan that every working
American has.
(28:50):
It's, it's the basis for, forour entire system in retirement.
It's absolutely critical and Iappreciate AARP's efforts to get
folks' attention, but I think Idon't know right now.
(29:12):
It doesn't seem like across allthe elections, not just
presidential, there doesn't seemto be a lot of conversation
about the need to address this.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
We need a Congress and a White House that's going
to take the issue seriously andput it on its agenda and work
together.
This has to be dealt in atransparent way so that the
American public are part of theconversation.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
And in a bipartisan way.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
And in a bipartisan way.
So you know we need Congress tobe able to work together on
issues, so we will continue topush and lift up the voice of
our members.
We need to make sure that theprogram is as solvent, not just
for current retirees, but forfuture generations as well.
(30:04):
My kids are going to need it.
So this is this is you're rightOne of the most incredible
programs that has ever beendeveloped, in that it's it's
kept millions of people, andit's not just retirees, it's
people with disabilities, it'sfamilies with kids who've lost a
parent millions of people andit's not just retirees, it's
people with disabilities, it'sfamilies with kids who've lost a
parent out of poverty.
(30:25):
And so we will continue to push.
I will continue to push andwe're very passionate about
these issues.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
So last question Does corporate America value
appreciate the economic impactthat seniors, retirees, have in
our society and in terms ofstimulating the economy?
I sometimes I think many peoplesometimes feel like all of the
(31:01):
energy commercially is aroundyounger individuals.
Some kind of retirement, phasedor otherwise, presents to our
economy.
What's your feeling in terms ofgetting corporate America to
(31:33):
understand the value thatseniors bring, not just in the
workplace but also from aneconomic standpoint?
Speaker 1 (31:40):
So we talked a little bit about the workplace and how
valuable their older workersare and the need to continue to
hire them and to train them.
But as consumers, people over50 spend almost 50 cents of
every dollar in America.
They also contribute a hugeamount of time.
Wow, that was a big.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Thing.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Mic drop.
We have a report called thelongevity economy and I can show
you, sector by sector, how mucholder adults help drive the
economy, both through theirdirect payments but also
creating jobs and indirectoutput.
And so and that's true all overthe world, as we see older
(32:25):
consumers, these aren't justretirees it's 50 plus from
AARP's perspective, but it'sdriving certainly more than its
share of healthcare dollars, butalso in technology, in
financial services.
But also in technology infinancial services.
(32:46):
And you're right, we don't seecorporate America thinking
through what are the productsand services that older adults
need in order to manage theirlife, make the technology useful
for them, and companies that dotake the time to be thoughtful
actually can do really, reallywell in the marketplace.
And again, if they do it throughageist stereotypes, where it's
(33:08):
old, it's, you know, beige,colored, um um products and and
ugly shoes, um, you know, someof the biggest shoe companies
that I see growing are the onesthat were, that have arch
support and super comfortable.
And you see, older people wantnice shoes that look pretty too,
(33:30):
um, or you know, I I love mycar.
It's sort of the seat movesback when I get in or out of it,
and so I have just a little bitof extra ease in doing that.
There's all kinds of universaldesign features that aren't just
good for older people but aregood for all consumers.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Well, on that, I think, note that a lot of people
should be listening to.
I want to thank you, deb, foryour time today.
Congratulations on your book,much success.
I know it's already beensuccessful, but I hope it
stimulates this podcast,stimulates some more sales,
because it's a great book.
And please keep on fighting thefight because what you're doing
is very important.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
And can I share one last thing?
All of the proceeds go toBenefit AARP Foundation and
lowerer Adults.
So buy not just your own copy,but buy a couple for our friends
to help out our foundation.
Speaker 3 (34:26):
That's a great idea.
Thank you, Deb.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Thanks, brian, thanks for having me, thank you.
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