July 30, 2025 • 32 mins
In this compelling episode of the Dead America Podcast, host Ed Watters sits down with Kimber Foster, author of Year of Thorns and The Divorce Checklist, to explore the realities of surviving and thriving after narcissistic abuse. Kimber opens up about her harrowing 30-year journey within a toxic relationship and the transformational process of breaking free from emotional manipulation and psychological control.
Listeners will gain powerful insights into how narcissistic behavior affects mental well-being and how subtle tactics—like gaslighting, guilt-tripping, and invalidation—keep victims trapped. Kimber offers practical steps for reclaiming personal power, including building self-belief, facing emotional challenges head-on, and rewriting the story of suffering into one of strength.
She also introduces her free guide designed to support individuals navigating the complex process of divorcing a narcissist, highlighting key checkpoints for legal, emotional, and spiritual preparedness. Kimber’s mission is to empower survivors to rise above pain and move toward healing with confidence and clarity.
Whether you're in recovery, supporting a loved one, or seeking deeper understanding of emotional abuse, this episode is both educational and deeply affirming.
00:00 Cutting the Chains of Control
00:54 Meet Kimber Foster: Author and Survivor
02:11 Recognizing Narcissistic Behavior
05:24 The Journey of Self-Discovery
10:58 Breaking Free and Finding Support
20:37 Practical Advice for Divorce
27:15 Final Thoughts and Resources
https://thehub.mastermind.com/v2/prev...
Divorce Checklist "The Ultimate Survival Kit to Freedom from a Narcissist" Free Copy for listeners
https://a.co/d/dzBrda9
Year ofThorns, What to Expect When Divorcing a Narcissist Amazon Link
https://a.co/d/fsYI5yy
Divorce Checklist "The Ultimate Survival Kit to Freedom from a Narcissist" Amazon Link
@yearofthorns Instagram
/ yearofthorns
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
And that chain is binding you to thatperson and they're still winning,
they're still controlling you.
So I always say to, um, peoplethat I coach and stuff, You gotta
picture like these giant boltcutters and you just gotta cut that.
You gotta cut that chain and moveforward and look forward, not
(00:34):
back.
Today, we are speaking with Kimber Foster.
(00:57):
She is the author of Year of Thorns.
Kimber, could you pleaseintroduce yourself?
And let people know just alittle more about you, please?
Hi.
Thank you so much for havingme, I'm honored to be here.
Um, yeah, I am the author of Year ofThorns, What to Expect When Divorcing
(01:18):
A Narcissist, and I also wrote TheDivorce Checklist, The Ultimate Survival
Guide to Freedom From A Narcissist.
Um, a little about me, I was marriedthirty years in a toxic relationship and
finally found the courage to break free.
And I took my year of struggle, itwas my, essentially my journal and
(01:45):
I turned it into book, into a book.
And it's meant to help others.
And not only was it therapeutic for me,but it was important that I understood
what I went through so that I canmove forward and help other people.
I'm so glad that you wrote thingsdown and that gives you clarity later.
(02:08):
You know, it, it's really interesting.
So many people nowadays live withnarcissistic people in their lives.
It's like we're breedingnarcissism wherever we go anymore.
It's interesting, you say throughthis journey of yours, you found
(02:30):
seventeen common emotional manipulative,
you found seventeen commonmanipulative tactics
for people to be aware ofabout narcissistic behavior.
(02:51):
Could you please outlinesome of those for us?
Sure.
Well, when I was going throughthe process, I had no idea I
was married to a narcissist.
Like you said, it's become mainstream.
I call it the N word now.
But I had no idea I wasmarried to a narcissist.
All I knew at the time was thatI had lost myself, I became a
(03:14):
shell of the person I once was.
I felt crazy, and I was so depressed,and I knew I needed to make a change.
Um, and so I decided to getdivorced and take that step.
Um, but I did keep a journal and it savedme so many times, I can't even tell you.
(03:34):
But it wasn't until after whenI started reading information
about what a narcissist is, Irealized my story wasn't unique.
It was textbook.
I even have a degree in psychology and Ididn't even see it and, not until after.
Um, so I started researching and readingeverything I could get my hands on.
(03:55):
Actually it started, my girlfriendwas going through a divorce and she
said she was being verbally abused.
And I said, Well, what's that?
And she gave me this book calledThe Verbally Abusive Relationship,
and I said, Wow, that's me.
And so it led to the next book,the next book, and I said,
Wow, you know, I'm textbook.
My story is not unique.
(04:16):
So when I decided to writemy book, it was driven.
I swear, like God said, Youneed to write this, not only
for myself, but to help others.
That I identified thesemanipulative tactics.
I said, Oh, that's gaslighting,or alienation, or manipulative
tactics that he used consistently.
So I went through and I put thoseback into my book, in my journal.
(04:40):
So it's kind of like I'm flipping backand forth between the past and the future.
Because I said, Oh, hedid this, this, and this.
This is an example of gaslighting.
Or, you know, we moved every threeyears and so I was, um, didn't
have a good support base or, um, arefuge of people that I could go to.
(05:01):
You know, that's alienation.
Um, and any time that, um, he woulddo things that I would question
his behavior or say, You know, I'mhurt, he would project back on me.
There's so many things, I could go onfor hours, but, um, my book is pretty
clear at giving some specific guidelines.
Yeah.
(05:24):
So, so how do you identify if you're ina narcissistic relationship and if you
should have a exit strategy for that?
Yeah.
Well, I didn't know.
Like I said, I had no idea Iwas married to a narcissist.
Um, it, I was, we weretogether thirty years.
(05:45):
And sure there were redflags along the way, but
it's, it's not something yousay, Oh, you're a narcissist.
They're very controlling,they're very smart, they're very
manipulative and controlling.
And at first it starts off like ahoneymoon phase, they almost morph
into what you need them to be.
(06:08):
And they're very good at pickingon people who, or like for
me, I was a people pleaser.
Um, or people that are codependent,or kind, or, you know, people let
things go, don't set proper boundaries.
Um, so they tend to preyon that type of person.
So for me, you know, I, I sawred flags, but I let things go.
(06:30):
And then later on when those, when Itried to set boundaries, the narcissistic
person would just push back even harder.
So it's just, it's, it's, it, it, youknow, thirty years, it's a long time.
And I was conditioned, andyeah, it was a struggle.
Well, I understand.
(06:51):
You know, the attachment that,that's definite, you know, after
that long.
Uh, I've been with my wife, we'vebeen married forty years in September.
And I'll tell you, it's, it's not easy.
And there was many times that both ofus wanted to put a lid on that can.
(07:16):
And we really fought back and wediscovered our own dirt, per se.
And we, we really starteduncovering how to change ourselves.
Was there any attempt by yourhusband or yourself to do any
of that self clearing work?
(07:42):
Well, he, we had, you know, as in anymarriage, you have your struggles,
you have your ups and downs.
But with a narcissist and a narcissisticpsychopath, they lack empathy.
They will take no accountability.
So when things got really bad, youknow, I suggested we seek counseling.
(08:02):
Um, which we did, but it, it was futile.
Like I said, he wouldnever take accountability.
It was more, uh, pointing fingers saying,you know, She does this, she does that.
Um, and it just was futile and ittook me a while to realize that.
Um, and finally I just wentout and had therapy on my own.
(08:24):
I knew it was never gonna work with him.
They, they won't change, they never willbecause there's nothing wrong with them.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's, that's huge actually.
Uh, so one of those big keythings to be mindful of is
accountability in a relationship.
If somebody's not going to be accountable,we should actually hold them accountable.
(08:50):
And that's tough to do at times.
But I, I know from experience whenI did that with my own relationship,
things started to change and get better.
So, that, I really believe is one ofthose key things we should be aware
(09:11):
of is are you trying to be accountablefor your own actions in your life?
Or even, yeah.
Or validating, validatinga person's feelings.
If you say, you know, This hurt myfeelings, it's not attacking someone.
But just saying, you know, Youractions hurt my feelings, or
(09:33):
whatever, just validating thosefeelings, a narcissist won't do that.
They'll say, Well, you're blowingeverything out of proportion.
You are exaggerating.
They'll belittle what you're feeling.
And that's where the accountabilitydoesn't come into play.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I, I've, I've had that play out in myown relationship, so I understand that.
(09:57):
And it was hard, you know, a male ego attimes to say, Yeah, I am accountable, and
I, I did that, and I should change that.
Uh, I don't know why that's so hardfor males to do at times, but it, it
(10:17):
tends to be one of those things thatwe have to really own up to ourselves.
And, you know, I, I don't liketo put name tags or labels on the
sexes because we're definitely, bothsides, are guilty of these things.
But being, being accountable and owningup to our own actions really does help
(10:44):
drive a relationship forward into new
territories.
And you can discover new thingsabout yourselves when you do open up.
Have you remarried Kimber?
No, I haven't.
I've been single now for seven years.
(11:05):
Uh, it's been a journey.
I mean, when you leave or break free froma narcissist, you can bet they already
have another supply already set up.
But for a person that's recovering,it takes years because you've
been conditioned for so longto feel inadequate, less than.
(11:27):
It was a real self journey forme, learning to love myself again.
And that was a big componentand the other was forgiveness.
You know, I was so resentful.
And I looked back and I was soangry, not only through the, the
divorce, which was really ugly, butyou know, thirty years of abuse.
(11:48):
It takes a long time to get over somethinglike that and to be able to forgive.
And, but that is really the key becauseas long as you hold onto that, it's
almost like you're holding a chain.
And that chain is binding you to thatperson and they're still winning,
they're still controlling you.
So I always say to, um, peoplethat I coach and stuff, You gotta
(12:10):
picture like these giant boltcutters and you just gotta cut that.
You gotta cut that chain and moveforward and look forward, not back.
(12:30):
Yep.
That, that's absolutely correct.
I believe that a hundred percent.
I have a theory, it's calledthe Muddy Shoe Life Theory.
And
our life is like we're walkingdown a trail with a muddy shoe and
people, places and things, it's thatheavy mud that we walked through.
(12:54):
And if you've walked through heavy mud,you know, it collects on your feet.
And it can get very heavyand it can tire you out.
So you have to wipe it off,get rid of the heavy mud.
The good mud stays with you.
But if you keep packing thatheavy mud, your journey's going
(13:19):
to be long, it's gonna be arduous.
And really if you wipe it off, you'regoing to feel refreshed and you can
make it to the end of your journeywithout all of that heavy mud.
So I, I think that, yeah,uh, it's a good analogy.
(13:39):
Do, uh, spread it, it, it's like wildfire.
But really, it, it, we have to do that.
That stuff gets heavy.
And if, if you learn to wipe it off,which is not easy at times because of
that attachment you were talking about,uh, so yeah, when we get through life
(14:06):
without a bunch of worries, headaches,it can be fun, it can be exciting.
And I'm, I'm just now learning thatand I'm close to sixty, so, you know,
if we can share what we've learnedto the younger generation, we're
(14:29):
bridge builders and we can help peoplediscover life doesn't have to be
the way that we've experienced it.
So,
That's true.
Yeah, it's really good to take no offense.
Yeah, sorry.
I just said it's really importantnot to take offense to everything
(14:50):
instead of looking at peoplewith grace and compassion.
And it's amazing how much more freeand how much lighter your heart
and your soul feel after all that.
Yes.
So yeah, lighten your load.
You, you don't have tobe a people pleaser.
It, it's one of those things as weget older, we learn that pleasing
(15:15):
people doesn't necessarily meanwe're going to please ourselves.
And that's really where joy is and that'snot being narcissistic or have have
these, you know, egotistical thoughts.
It, it just means that you can behappy in your life and be free from
(15:38):
all of that by standing up to life.
And, and that really means when weare in one of those relationships,
we have to set boundaries.
And if we can't set boundaries,our life's not going to get better.
(16:00):
And, and those little things, you know,and you know through living with each
other, incrementally, things can pile up.
Don't be afraid to talk aboutthose things that bug you.
And if, if they're not willing to reallytake a deep dive and try to change
(16:27):
that, is that relationship worth it?
I, I think that's really a lesson.
And, and, and really you, you needto be able to identify that in
order to be happy in a relationship.
Men and women are different,totally different.
(16:51):
And I, I know that some of the thingsthat I do drive my wife batty and
it, it's something I don't intendto do and I never want to do it.
However, it's reciprocal.
It happens both ways.
So we have to have that empathy towardsone another, and it's hard to find.
(17:17):
Could, could you explainthe book cover to me?
Uh, I found your book cover so grabbing.
Aah.
Yeah,
I have a copy right here.
Um, I call it my Year of Thorns.
And actually I came up with the ideaof the title from, do you remember
(17:40):
that old movie War Of The Roses?
I think it was, um, Douglasand Kathleen Turner.
And they fight and theyboth die in the end.
They go through a horrible divorce.
Um, it was a movie I watchedduring my divorce that that's what
inspired, and then, you know, mywedding ring and the two couples.
But, um, so that's where that came from.
(18:03):
Uh, but it's, it, itwas my year of struggle.
I mean, and it's, you know,going through those thorns,
those trials and tribulations.
Um, I always say, you know, Anythingthat's a challenge, anything you have
to work for, is worth it because itmakes it that much more valuable.
You know, my freedom now, myjoy, my happiness, I had to go
(18:26):
through that, um, in order tobe happy and find my joy again.
Yeah, but it's worth it.
And for so many people that arecaught in a toxic relationship,
it's not gonna get better.
And they really need to pushthrough that fear, the fear of the
unknown, the fear of being alone.
(18:46):
Um, and you, you know, you're gonna havea struggle ahead, but it's worth it.
It's, it's so worth it in the end.
Could, could you tell peopleabout how that was for you when
you finally said, I've had enoughand you broke out on your own?
Well, yeah.
(19:07):
Well, I had a panic attack.
It was like my body doingthat fight or flight.
I never had one before in mylife, but I just knew that
it was time to make a change.
Otherwise I would've died, um,either by his hand or my own.
It was bad, it was really bad.
And so I made the conscious effortto leave and get divorced, but he
(19:30):
wouldn't move out of the house.
And I didn't have any moneyor a safe place to go.
So we were in the same house for a year,um, going through a horrendous divorce.
And
I, nothing could haveprepared me for what happened.
(19:51):
Um, and there's nothing else Icould have done in hindsight either.
Um, it was bad, it was really bad.
And I hate to scare people, but whenyou're, you're leaving a narcissist,
their biggest fear is abandonment.
And once they know you haveyour foot out the door, then
you're in the discard phase.
And they will do anything intheir power to take you down.
(20:13):
It's, you know, there's no mercy.
There's, it, it's zero empathy, zero.
Um,
I'm the one with sweat over,I'm looking for compassion.
It's a game that theyhave to win at all costs.
So it is kinda like a year ofthrones, but a year of thorns.
Yeah.
(20:36):
Yeah.
You know, you highlighted, uh,four key tips to breaking free
from a toxic relationship, andI find these very interesting.
One, overcome fear.
Uh, two, be prepared.
(20:57):
I, I, I would of thought thatwould've been the biggest one.
But you're, you're, you're theone that went through this, so
that's very interesting to me.
Well, I had, I had, I had saidsomething to him though about,
like years before, that I didn'tfeel our marriage was working and
I thought I needed a separation.
(21:19):
And that was the first phase ofthe discard phase, things got
potentially, um, worse after that.
Um, yeah.
So there are things you can do to prepare.
But when you get to that point where youare fighting for your life, sometimes
you don't have that time to prepare.
(21:40):
And, and you, you said you had no supportnetwork because you kept on moving.
So
how did you find thesupport to break away?
Well, when I initially had expressedmy desire to leave, um, we were
(22:03):
living in a foreign country.
So I had three small children, no moneyof my own, it wasn't just like I could
pack up my kids and hop on a plane.
Like, where do you go?
And you know, I calledthe police many times.
But most of the time theydidn't speak our language.
And he knew I couldn't put him in, injail because we relied on his income.
(22:25):
So there was only so muchI could do at the time.
Yeah.
It was, it was a struggle.
Yeah.
That's a place to be.
Uh, number three, believe in yourself.
That, that seems to be a big one, youknow, to take that power step of action.
(22:48):
It, it really takes this leap of faith.
You know, believing in yourself.
So that tends to be
Yes.
You know, you gotta trust yourgut and trust to that inner voice.
For so long he told meI was crazy for so long.
(23:11):
He, you know, said I was making a bigdeal out of everything or exaggerating.
But I knew deep down that that voice said,No, you're entitled to love and kindness,
and respect, and, um, to be cherishedand treated with, like everybody should.
You just gotta listen to that inner voice.
That sometimes whenyou're in a controlling
(23:33):
relationship, it gets silented.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I like that.
And the fourth one, stop tellingthe story of your suffering year.
I find this one very interesting andprobably the most important of all.
(23:57):
Could you speak about that, please?
Well, you've kind of touched onit with your muddy boot story.
Um, yeah.
It's, it's about, you know,looking forward and not back.
Um,
it's, it's, if you keep talking about,Oh my God, they did this to me, and
this happened and this happened, it'salmost like you're manifesting it
(24:21):
to keep coming back into your life.
Instead, I prefer to talk aboutmy year of survival or, um, yeah.
And so I'm a survivor andthriver now, I'm not a victim.
There's different ways you can, youknow, it's that, that inner narrative.
And I really struggled with that.
(24:42):
'Cause for so many years, likeI said, I was conditioned.
I'm not pretty enough, and I'm notskinny enough, I was never enough.
Um, no one else will love me.
You know, and, and it's just, you gottacut those chains and silent that narrative
and try to be more optimistic and manifesta more positive thriving survival mode.
(25:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Was, was there some way that helpedyou shift your mindset into a more
positive, constructive mindset?
It's taken me a long time, I admit it.
I went through therapy,lots of counselors.
You know, now there's so muchon narcissism, so I really
(25:31):
resonated with more of that.
But then also, um, for me, finding God,um, bringing Him more into my life and
knowing that He loves me and, um, thatI need to love myself like He does.
And just putting my, myfaith in Him and my future.
(25:54):
So, Kimber, do you have plans of tryingto find love or did the narcissistic
individual break that out of you?
Oh, no.
I loved being married.
I mean, when I look back,we had some great times.
We have three beautiful children,I lived all over the world.
(26:14):
I mean, I had a life that a lotof people would be envious of.
Um, you know, and I try to lookat that and be thankful for that.
And I wanna have it again but I,you know, I'm a little guarded.
I am, so I'm looking.
You know, but I, like I said, I hadto take time to love myself again too.
(26:35):
Until I was, you know, healedenough that I could be a good
partner for somebody else.
You know, that, that's very interesting.
I, I like that a lot, that statement,you know, healing yourself so you can
be a better partner for somebody else.
That, that really highlights, uh, a caringnature that you really want it to work.
(27:01):
So I, I find that very inspirational.
I, I wish you well on that.
Is there anything in our conversationthat we haven't covered that you
would like to highlight today?
Oh, well, I would like to offer toyour, um, viewers and listeners, I also
wrote this Divorce Checklist, it's theUltimate Survival Guide to freedom.
(27:26):
So I found that when I was going throughmy divorce and we were spending so
much money on attorneys left and right.
I researched everything on the internet.
I had never been divorced, Ihad no idea what I was doing.
Um, it's so importantto have a good source.
So this is, um, I'm gonna offerit free to your listeners.
(27:48):
Um, but it's just a good checklistof things that you need to cover,
things to consider, but moreimportantly, also if you have children.
Because the, the level of conflictbetween parents really affects
the children in a divorce.
And if you can eliminate that or identifya lot of the key components through
(28:10):
the process, or in your separation,or in your divorce decree, which is
your Holy Bible, um, it's important.
'Cause a lot of times when you'redivorcing a narcissist, they'll say,
Oh, that's what child support is for.
It doesn't fall under the normalcanopy of food, shelter, and clothing.
Or, um, you know, but whatabout sports equipment?
(28:31):
What about driver's training?
What about proms and weddings andall these things later on in life?
It's really important that those thingsare agreed upon prior to a divorce.
And so that's what this guide is.
Hopefully a little, I'd call itarmor, to help you get through it.
Yeah.
You know, divorce is scary.
(28:52):
And you know, just to think about it, itis one of those taboo subjects for many.
And to help people that are actuallygoing through that, that can
be a very strong tool for them.
So thank you for offering that.
(29:12):
Uh,
I would like to say thank you forsharing your story with us today.
You know, there are many people outthere struggling and people like you are
out there helping them get through it.
So, I, I really wish you well on yourjourney, and I would like to invite you
(29:38):
back and tell us more about your storyat a later date about a rekindling.
You know, because life carrieson and the story is never ending.
So do you have a call toaction for our listeners today?
(29:58):
Um,
if you're in a toxic relationship,don't let fear hold you back.
Listen to your gut and, you know,push beyond those boundaries so
that you can live a happy, joyouslife that was meant for you.
Awesome.
(30:19):
And can you let people knowhow to get in touch with you?
Uh, get your book?
And anything else socialyou would like to share?
Yeah, so you can get, um,both my Year of Thorns and The
Divorce Checklist on Amazon.
It's available in Kindle and Audible.
(30:41):
Now, I wanna preface that I'mnot a professional writer.
It was my journal and I wished I'd waiteduntil like ChatGPT did or something
so it was a little more professional.
But, you know, I'm, I'm just an ordinaryperson, I'm just a woman who was
married for thirty years and broke free.
And I hope that by sharing my story,I can help a few people along the way.
(31:04):
And I have a website, it'scalled yearofthorns.com.
And I have a blog on therewith a bunch of, um, blogs I've
written, and I've shared a lot ofmy other podcasts on there too.
But they can reach me there as well.
Awesome.
All right, Kimber, it's been afascinating discussion with you.
(31:24):
I wanna say thank you for sharinghere today on the podcast with us.
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you for joining us today.
If you found this podcast enlightening,entertaining, educational in any way,
please share, like, subscribe, and joinus right back here next week for another
(31:49):
great episode of the Dead America Podcast.
I'm Ed Watters, your host, enjoyyour afternoon wherever you might be.
And that chain is binding you to thatperson and they're still winning,
they're still controlling you.
So I always say to, um, peoplethat I coach and stuff, You gotta
picture like these giant boltcutters and you just gotta cut that.
You gotta cut that chain and moveforward and look forward, not
(00:34):
back.
Today, we are speaking with Kimber Foster.
(00:57):
She is the author of Year of Thorns.
Kimber, could you pleaseintroduce yourself?
And let people know just alittle more about you, please?
Hi.
Thank you so much for havingme, I'm honored to be here.
Um, yeah, I am the author of Year ofThorns, What to Expect When Divorcing
(01:18):
A Narcissist, and I also wrote TheDivorce Checklist, The Ultimate Survival
Guide to Freedom From A Narcissist.
Um, a little about me, I was marriedthirty years in a toxic relationship and
finally found the courage to break free.
And I took my year of struggle, itwas my, essentially my journal and
(01:45):
I turned it into book, into a book.
And it's meant to help others.
And not only was it therapeutic for me,but it was important that I understood
what I went through so that I canmove forward and help other people.
I'm so glad that you wrote thingsdown and that gives you clarity later.
(02:08):
You know, it, it's really interesting.
So many people nowadays live withnarcissistic people in their lives.
It's like we're breedingnarcissism wherever we go anymore.
It's interesting, you say throughthis journey of yours, you found
(02:30):
seventeen common emotional manipulative,
you found seventeen commonmanipulative tactics
for people to be aware ofabout narcissistic behavior.
(02:51):
Could you please outlinesome of those for us?
Sure.
Well, when I was going throughthe process, I had no idea I
was married to a narcissist.
Like you said, it's become mainstream.
I call it the N word now.
But I had no idea I wasmarried to a narcissist.
All I knew at the time was thatI had lost myself, I became a
(03:14):
shell of the person I once was.
I felt crazy, and I was so depressed,and I knew I needed to make a change.
Um, and so I decided to getdivorced and take that step.
Um, but I did keep a journal and it savedme so many times, I can't even tell you.
(03:34):
But it wasn't until after whenI started reading information
about what a narcissist is, Irealized my story wasn't unique.
It was textbook.
I even have a degree in psychology and Ididn't even see it and, not until after.
Um, so I started researching and readingeverything I could get my hands on.
(03:55):
Actually it started, my girlfriendwas going through a divorce and she
said she was being verbally abused.
And I said, Well, what's that?
And she gave me this book calledThe Verbally Abusive Relationship,
and I said, Wow, that's me.
And so it led to the next book,the next book, and I said,
Wow, you know, I'm textbook.
My story is not unique.
(04:16):
So when I decided to writemy book, it was driven.
I swear, like God said, Youneed to write this, not only
for myself, but to help others.
That I identified thesemanipulative tactics.
I said, Oh, that's gaslighting,or alienation, or manipulative
tactics that he used consistently.
So I went through and I put thoseback into my book, in my journal.
(04:40):
So it's kind of like I'm flipping backand forth between the past and the future.
Because I said, Oh, hedid this, this, and this.
This is an example of gaslighting.
Or, you know, we moved every threeyears and so I was, um, didn't
have a good support base or, um, arefuge of people that I could go to.
(05:01):
You know, that's alienation.
Um, and any time that, um, he woulddo things that I would question
his behavior or say, You know, I'mhurt, he would project back on me.
There's so many things, I could go onfor hours, but, um, my book is pretty
clear at giving some specific guidelines.
Yeah.
(05:24):
So, so how do you identify if you're ina narcissistic relationship and if you
should have a exit strategy for that?
Yeah.
Well, I didn't know.
Like I said, I had no idea Iwas married to a narcissist.
Um, it, I was, we weretogether thirty years.
(05:45):
And sure there were redflags along the way, but
it's, it's not something yousay, Oh, you're a narcissist.
They're very controlling,they're very smart, they're very
manipulative and controlling.
And at first it starts off like ahoneymoon phase, they almost morph
into what you need them to be.
(06:08):
And they're very good at pickingon people who, or like for
me, I was a people pleaser.
Um, or people that are codependent,or kind, or, you know, people let
things go, don't set proper boundaries.
Um, so they tend to preyon that type of person.
So for me, you know, I, I sawred flags, but I let things go.
(06:30):
And then later on when those, when Itried to set boundaries, the narcissistic
person would just push back even harder.
So it's just, it's, it's, it, it, youknow, thirty years, it's a long time.
And I was conditioned, andyeah, it was a struggle.
Well, I understand.
(06:51):
You know, the attachment that,that's definite, you know, after
that long.
Uh, I've been with my wife, we'vebeen married forty years in September.
And I'll tell you, it's, it's not easy.
And there was many times that both ofus wanted to put a lid on that can.
(07:16):
And we really fought back and wediscovered our own dirt, per se.
And we, we really starteduncovering how to change ourselves.
Was there any attempt by yourhusband or yourself to do any
of that self clearing work?
(07:42):
Well, he, we had, you know, as in anymarriage, you have your struggles,
you have your ups and downs.
But with a narcissist and a narcissisticpsychopath, they lack empathy.
They will take no accountability.
So when things got really bad, youknow, I suggested we seek counseling.
(08:02):
Um, which we did, but it, it was futile.
Like I said, he wouldnever take accountability.
It was more, uh, pointing fingers saying,you know, She does this, she does that.
Um, and it just was futile and ittook me a while to realize that.
Um, and finally I just wentout and had therapy on my own.
(08:24):
I knew it was never gonna work with him.
They, they won't change, they never willbecause there's nothing wrong with them.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's, that's huge actually.
Uh, so one of those big keythings to be mindful of is
accountability in a relationship.
If somebody's not going to be accountable,we should actually hold them accountable.
(08:50):
And that's tough to do at times.
But I, I know from experience whenI did that with my own relationship,
things started to change and get better.
So, that, I really believe is one ofthose key things we should be aware
(09:11):
of is are you trying to be accountablefor your own actions in your life?
Or even, yeah.
Or validating, validatinga person's feelings.
If you say, you know, This hurt myfeelings, it's not attacking someone.
But just saying, you know, Youractions hurt my feelings, or
(09:33):
whatever, just validating thosefeelings, a narcissist won't do that.
They'll say, Well, you're blowingeverything out of proportion.
You are exaggerating.
They'll belittle what you're feeling.
And that's where the accountabilitydoesn't come into play.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I, I've, I've had that play out in myown relationship, so I understand that.
(09:57):
And it was hard, you know, a male ego attimes to say, Yeah, I am accountable, and
I, I did that, and I should change that.
Uh, I don't know why that's so hardfor males to do at times, but it, it
(10:17):
tends to be one of those things thatwe have to really own up to ourselves.
And, you know, I, I don't liketo put name tags or labels on the
sexes because we're definitely, bothsides, are guilty of these things.
But being, being accountable and owningup to our own actions really does help
(10:44):
drive a relationship forward into new
territories.
And you can discover new thingsabout yourselves when you do open up.
Have you remarried Kimber?
No, I haven't.
I've been single now for seven years.
(11:05):
Uh, it's been a journey.
I mean, when you leave or break free froma narcissist, you can bet they already
have another supply already set up.
But for a person that's recovering,it takes years because you've
been conditioned for so longto feel inadequate, less than.
(11:27):
It was a real self journey forme, learning to love myself again.
And that was a big componentand the other was forgiveness.
You know, I was so resentful.
And I looked back and I was soangry, not only through the, the
divorce, which was really ugly, butyou know, thirty years of abuse.
(11:48):
It takes a long time to get over somethinglike that and to be able to forgive.
And, but that is really the key becauseas long as you hold onto that, it's
almost like you're holding a chain.
And that chain is binding you to thatperson and they're still winning,
they're still controlling you.
So I always say to, um, peoplethat I coach and stuff, You gotta
(12:10):
picture like these giant boltcutters and you just gotta cut that.
You gotta cut that chain and moveforward and look forward, not back.
(12:30):
Yep.
That, that's absolutely correct.
I believe that a hundred percent.
I have a theory, it's calledthe Muddy Shoe Life Theory.
And
our life is like we're walkingdown a trail with a muddy shoe and
people, places and things, it's thatheavy mud that we walked through.
(12:54):
And if you've walked through heavy mud,you know, it collects on your feet.
And it can get very heavyand it can tire you out.
So you have to wipe it off,get rid of the heavy mud.
The good mud stays with you.
But if you keep packing thatheavy mud, your journey's going
(13:19):
to be long, it's gonna be arduous.
And really if you wipe it off, you'regoing to feel refreshed and you can
make it to the end of your journeywithout all of that heavy mud.
So I, I think that, yeah,uh, it's a good analogy.
(13:39):
Do, uh, spread it, it, it's like wildfire.
But really, it, it, we have to do that.
That stuff gets heavy.
And if, if you learn to wipe it off,which is not easy at times because of
that attachment you were talking about,uh, so yeah, when we get through life
(14:06):
without a bunch of worries, headaches,it can be fun, it can be exciting.
And I'm, I'm just now learning thatand I'm close to sixty, so, you know,
if we can share what we've learnedto the younger generation, we're
(14:29):
bridge builders and we can help peoplediscover life doesn't have to be
the way that we've experienced it.
So,
That's true.
Yeah, it's really good to take no offense.
Yeah, sorry.
I just said it's really importantnot to take offense to everything
(14:50):
instead of looking at peoplewith grace and compassion.
And it's amazing how much more freeand how much lighter your heart
and your soul feel after all that.
Yes.
So yeah, lighten your load.
You, you don't have tobe a people pleaser.
It, it's one of those things as weget older, we learn that pleasing
(15:15):
people doesn't necessarily meanwe're going to please ourselves.
And that's really where joy is and that'snot being narcissistic or have have
these, you know, egotistical thoughts.
It, it just means that you can behappy in your life and be free from
(15:38):
all of that by standing up to life.
And, and that really means when weare in one of those relationships,
we have to set boundaries.
And if we can't set boundaries,our life's not going to get better.
(16:00):
And, and those little things, you know,and you know through living with each
other, incrementally, things can pile up.
Don't be afraid to talk aboutthose things that bug you.
And if, if they're not willing to reallytake a deep dive and try to change
(16:27):
that, is that relationship worth it?
I, I think that's really a lesson.
And, and, and really you, you needto be able to identify that in
order to be happy in a relationship.
Men and women are different,totally different.
(16:51):
And I, I know that some of the thingsthat I do drive my wife batty and
it, it's something I don't intendto do and I never want to do it.
However, it's reciprocal.
It happens both ways.
So we have to have that empathy towardsone another, and it's hard to find.
(17:17):
Could, could you explainthe book cover to me?
Uh, I found your book cover so grabbing.
Aah.
Yeah,
I have a copy right here.
Um, I call it my Year of Thorns.
And actually I came up with the ideaof the title from, do you remember
(17:40):
that old movie War Of The Roses?
I think it was, um, Douglasand Kathleen Turner.
And they fight and theyboth die in the end.
They go through a horrible divorce.
Um, it was a movie I watchedduring my divorce that that's what
inspired, and then, you know, mywedding ring and the two couples.
But, um, so that's where that came from.
(18:03):
Uh, but it's, it, itwas my year of struggle.
I mean, and it's, you know,going through those thorns,
those trials and tribulations.
Um, I always say, you know, Anythingthat's a challenge, anything you have
to work for, is worth it because itmakes it that much more valuable.
You know, my freedom now, myjoy, my happiness, I had to go
(18:26):
through that, um, in order tobe happy and find my joy again.
Yeah, but it's worth it.
And for so many people that arecaught in a toxic relationship,
it's not gonna get better.
And they really need to pushthrough that fear, the fear of the
unknown, the fear of being alone.
(18:46):
Um, and you, you know, you're gonna havea struggle ahead, but it's worth it.
It's, it's so worth it in the end.
Could, could you tell peopleabout how that was for you when
you finally said, I've had enoughand you broke out on your own?
Well, yeah.
(19:07):
Well, I had a panic attack.
It was like my body doingthat fight or flight.
I never had one before in mylife, but I just knew that
it was time to make a change.
Otherwise I would've died, um,either by his hand or my own.
It was bad, it was really bad.
And so I made the conscious effortto leave and get divorced, but he
(19:30):
wouldn't move out of the house.
And I didn't have any moneyor a safe place to go.
So we were in the same house for a year,um, going through a horrendous divorce.
And
I, nothing could haveprepared me for what happened.
(19:51):
Um, and there's nothing else Icould have done in hindsight either.
Um, it was bad, it was really bad.
And I hate to scare people, but whenyou're, you're leaving a narcissist,
their biggest fear is abandonment.
And once they know you haveyour foot out the door, then
you're in the discard phase.
And they will do anything intheir power to take you down.
(20:13):
It's, you know, there's no mercy.
There's, it, it's zero empathy, zero.
Um,
I'm the one with sweat over,I'm looking for compassion.
It's a game that theyhave to win at all costs.
So it is kinda like a year ofthrones, but a year of thorns.
Yeah.
(20:36):
Yeah.
You know, you highlighted, uh,four key tips to breaking free
from a toxic relationship, andI find these very interesting.
One, overcome fear.
Uh, two, be prepared.
(20:57):
I, I, I would of thought thatwould've been the biggest one.
But you're, you're, you're theone that went through this, so
that's very interesting to me.
Well, I had, I had, I had saidsomething to him though about,
like years before, that I didn'tfeel our marriage was working and
I thought I needed a separation.
(21:19):
And that was the first phase ofthe discard phase, things got
potentially, um, worse after that.
Um, yeah.
So there are things you can do to prepare.
But when you get to that point where youare fighting for your life, sometimes
you don't have that time to prepare.
(21:40):
And, and you, you said you had no supportnetwork because you kept on moving.
So
how did you find thesupport to break away?
Well, when I initially had expressedmy desire to leave, um, we were
(22:03):
living in a foreign country.
So I had three small children, no moneyof my own, it wasn't just like I could
pack up my kids and hop on a plane.
Like, where do you go?
And you know, I calledthe police many times.
But most of the time theydidn't speak our language.
And he knew I couldn't put him in, injail because we relied on his income.
(22:25):
So there was only so muchI could do at the time.
Yeah.
It was, it was a struggle.
Yeah.
That's a place to be.
Uh, number three, believe in yourself.
That, that seems to be a big one, youknow, to take that power step of action.
(22:48):
It, it really takes this leap of faith.
You know, believing in yourself.
So that tends to be
Yes.
You know, you gotta trust yourgut and trust to that inner voice.
For so long he told meI was crazy for so long.
(23:11):
He, you know, said I was making a bigdeal out of everything or exaggerating.
But I knew deep down that that voice said,No, you're entitled to love and kindness,
and respect, and, um, to be cherishedand treated with, like everybody should.
You just gotta listen to that inner voice.
That sometimes whenyou're in a controlling
(23:33):
relationship, it gets silented.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I like that.
And the fourth one, stop tellingthe story of your suffering year.
I find this one very interesting andprobably the most important of all.
(23:57):
Could you speak about that, please?
Well, you've kind of touched onit with your muddy boot story.
Um, yeah.
It's, it's about, you know,looking forward and not back.
Um,
it's, it's, if you keep talking about,Oh my God, they did this to me, and
this happened and this happened, it'salmost like you're manifesting it
(24:21):
to keep coming back into your life.
Instead, I prefer to talk aboutmy year of survival or, um, yeah.
And so I'm a survivor andthriver now, I'm not a victim.
There's different ways you can, youknow, it's that, that inner narrative.
And I really struggled with that.
(24:42):
'Cause for so many years, likeI said, I was conditioned.
I'm not pretty enough, and I'm notskinny enough, I was never enough.
Um, no one else will love me.
You know, and, and it's just, you gottacut those chains and silent that narrative
and try to be more optimistic and manifesta more positive thriving survival mode.
(25:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Was, was there some way that helpedyou shift your mindset into a more
positive, constructive mindset?
It's taken me a long time, I admit it.
I went through therapy,lots of counselors.
You know, now there's so muchon narcissism, so I really
(25:31):
resonated with more of that.
But then also, um, for me, finding God,um, bringing Him more into my life and
knowing that He loves me and, um, thatI need to love myself like He does.
And just putting my, myfaith in Him and my future.
(25:54):
So, Kimber, do you have plans of tryingto find love or did the narcissistic
individual break that out of you?
Oh, no.
I loved being married.
I mean, when I look back,we had some great times.
We have three beautiful children,I lived all over the world.
(26:14):
I mean, I had a life that a lotof people would be envious of.
Um, you know, and I try to lookat that and be thankful for that.
And I wanna have it again but I,you know, I'm a little guarded.
I am, so I'm looking.
You know, but I, like I said, I hadto take time to love myself again too.
(26:35):
Until I was, you know, healedenough that I could be a good
partner for somebody else.
You know, that, that's very interesting.
I, I like that a lot, that statement,you know, healing yourself so you can
be a better partner for somebody else.
That, that really highlights, uh, a caringnature that you really want it to work.
(27:01):
So I, I find that very inspirational.
I, I wish you well on that.
Is there anything in our conversationthat we haven't covered that you
would like to highlight today?
Oh, well, I would like to offer toyour, um, viewers and listeners, I also
wrote this Divorce Checklist, it's theUltimate Survival Guide to freedom.
(27:26):
So I found that when I was going throughmy divorce and we were spending so
much money on attorneys left and right.
I researched everything on the internet.
I had never been divorced, Ihad no idea what I was doing.
Um, it's so importantto have a good source.
So this is, um, I'm gonna offerit free to your listeners.
(27:48):
Um, but it's just a good checklistof things that you need to cover,
things to consider, but moreimportantly, also if you have children.
Because the, the level of conflictbetween parents really affects
the children in a divorce.
And if you can eliminate that or identifya lot of the key components through
(28:10):
the process, or in your separation,or in your divorce decree, which is
your Holy Bible, um, it's important.
'Cause a lot of times when you'redivorcing a narcissist, they'll say,
Oh, that's what child support is for.
It doesn't fall under the normalcanopy of food, shelter, and clothing.
Or, um, you know, but whatabout sports equipment?
(28:31):
What about driver's training?
What about proms and weddings andall these things later on in life?
It's really important that those thingsare agreed upon prior to a divorce.
And so that's what this guide is.
Hopefully a little, I'd call itarmor, to help you get through it.
Yeah.
You know, divorce is scary.
(28:52):
And you know, just to think about it, itis one of those taboo subjects for many.
And to help people that are actuallygoing through that, that can
be a very strong tool for them.
So thank you for offering that.
(29:12):
Uh,
I would like to say thank you forsharing your story with us today.
You know, there are many people outthere struggling and people like you are
out there helping them get through it.
So, I, I really wish you well on yourjourney, and I would like to invite you
(29:38):
back and tell us more about your storyat a later date about a rekindling.
You know, because life carrieson and the story is never ending.
So do you have a call toaction for our listeners today?
(29:58):
Um,
if you're in a toxic relationship,don't let fear hold you back.
Listen to your gut and, you know,push beyond those boundaries so
that you can live a happy, joyouslife that was meant for you.
Awesome.
(30:19):
And can you let people knowhow to get in touch with you?
Uh, get your book?
And anything else socialyou would like to share?
Yeah, so you can get, um,both my Year of Thorns and The
Divorce Checklist on Amazon.
It's available in Kindle and Audible.
(30:41):
Now, I wanna preface that I'mnot a professional writer.
It was my journal and I wished I'd waiteduntil like ChatGPT did or something
so it was a little more professional.
But, you know, I'm, I'm just an ordinaryperson, I'm just a woman who was
married for thirty years and broke free.
And I hope that by sharing my story,I can help a few people along the way.
(31:04):
And I have a website, it'scalled yearofthorns.com.
And I have a blog on therewith a bunch of, um, blogs I've
written, and I've shared a lot ofmy other podcasts on there too.
But they can reach me there as well.
Awesome.
All right, Kimber, it's been afascinating discussion with you.
(31:24):
I wanna say thank you for sharinghere today on the podcast with us.
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you for joining us today.
If you found this podcast enlightening,entertaining, educational in any way,
please share, like, subscribe, and joinus right back here next week for another
(31:49):
great episode of the Dead America Podcast.
I'm Ed Watters, your host, enjoyyour afternoon wherever you might be.
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