June 25, 2025 • 63 mins
Step into a powerful discussion on the Dead America Podcast as host Ed Watters interviews Jack Kammer, a retired social worker and long-time advocate for men’s issues. With a career that began in marketing and IT, Jack shares how his path led him to become a voice for men and boys navigating complex gender dynamics.
In this episode, Jack discusses the importance of male advocacy and why honest conversations around gender equity are essential for societal growth. He recounts his experiences as host of a radio show dedicated to men’s lives and examines the societal stigma men face when expressing their challenges. Jack speaks candidly about the current gender discourse, emphasizing mutual respect, fair treatment, and the need for balance in conversations between men and women.
Listeners will gain insight into actionable steps for fostering understanding and building healthier relationships between the sexes. This episode is a must-listen for anyone passionate about creating a more inclusive and equitable society through thoughtful dialogue and respect.
00:00 Introduction and Setting the Stage
00:54 Meet Jack Kammer: Advocate for Men and Boys
01:12 Jack's Journey: From Marketing to Social Work
02:51 Challenging Gender Stereotypes
04:19 The Importance of Honest Conversations
07:58 Why Jack Doesn't Have a Podcast
12:42 The Evolution of Gender Roles
13:21 The Feminist Movement and Its Impact
48:19 Reinventing Gender Roles
01:00:48 Call to Action and Conclusion
Links
/ malefriendlymedia
https://malefriendlymedia.com
the importance of male advocacy, Jack Kammer, male advocacy, gender equity, Ed Watters, Dead America Podcast, men's issues, mutual respect, gender relations, social worker, radio show on men’s lives, gender discourse, inclusive society, equity, men and boys, gender dialogue
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You can think of that if you wantto, or if you really don't want to.
You can think of thatas claiming victimhood.
But really it's just being honest andsaying, Hey, we got a big problem here
and, uh, we all gotta get together andwork on this because it's eaten us alive.
(00:54):
Today, we are speaking with Jack Kammer.
Jack has a website, malefriendlymedia.com.
Jack, could you please introduce yourself?
Let people know just a littlemore about you, please.
Uh, hi Ed.
Thank you.
Well, let's see.
I am a retired social worker.
(01:16):
I went to social work school at theage of fifty-four, um, after I had a
career as a marketing PR/IT person.
But my hobby that, my advocation,my passion was about what I did
(01:38):
without getting paid for it.
And that was to be an advocatefor men and boys around the
social issues of men and boys.
My first actual experience, and that wasin 1983 when I started the radio show
north of Baltimore, called The Lives ofMen, and it became pretty quickly clear
(02:02):
that there were a lot of important socialissues connected to what was really going
on with men as opposed to what some peopleliked to pretend was going on with men.
Which was that men have it easy,being male is nothing but a privilege,
(02:22):
being male is nothing but an advantage,and men don't have any problems,
and if they do, it's their ownfault, and men run the world, and
so stop talking about men's issues.
Only women have problems based on gender.
And I can't think of a moreincorrect statement about
(02:47):
the human species than that.
And I just became passionatelyinvolved, passionately concerned,
more and more convinced that ifwe're gonna have a healthy society,
we have to be willing to say suchradical things as most men are good.
(03:11):
Now, how do I like to say it?
Men aren't perfect, but we're great.
Women are great, but they're not perfect.
And, you know, being able to say thatwomen aren't perfect is a little risky
sometimes, crazy as that might sound.
Uh, you know, we, we live in a, ina, a spirit of the times in which
(03:37):
you can get into a fight by daringto suggest that women are human and
therefore inevitably will do bad things.
Um, and, you know, if youcan't talk about somebody's
flaws, you're, they'renever gonna get better.
(03:58):
You're never gonna have abetter relationship with them.
Uh, you're just gonna have to grind itout and, you know, maybe become resentful,
maybe decide to leave, maybe decide tobecome an alcoholic just to numb the pain
of having to deal with a person who won'tadmit that she ever does anything wrong.
(04:19):
Um, you know, to, to, to saythat a woman is not perfect these
days is often called misogyny.
You know, that to, to dare to, to saythat a woman is human and isn't perfect
is the equivalent, in some people'smind, as misogyny, woman hating.
(04:47):
And I've come to the conclusion thatthe greatest cause of misogyny these
days is overuse of the word misogynyfor the reasons we just talked about.
You know, if you, if, if I cannot sayanything that's the least bit critical
(05:07):
of a woman or of women in generalwithout being called a woman hater
and shamed, and shut down and shunned,well, my feelings about that woman
are not going to magically improve.
They're gonna go underground,they're gonna fester, and
they're not gonna get better.
(05:28):
We're not gonna improve ourrelationship, we might end up
in a divorce if we're married.
Um, so we really gotta get to abetter place where we approximate
the ability that women have tovoice very strongly what they would
like to see men do differently.
(05:50):
It would be great if men felt just asempowered, just as safe, uh, that they
would be just as respected, heard, andlistened to if we could say, Honey,
um, you know, there are a couple thingsI really would like to talk with you
about that are kind of driving me crazy.
(06:12):
And that can, that canoften go downhill very fast.
Now it's probably gonna, it'sprobably gonna go off better with
your wife because, you know, sheknows you and she loves you, we hope.
Then you know and love her, we hope.
But, you know, in the political spherewhere we are so, so, so polarized,
(06:34):
you really have, it's hard to be aman and to say anything about how you
think women take advantage of thingsin a way that's not fair sometimes.
I mean, just that can, can cause a huge,huge problems for a man and, and huge
problems for, uh, social discourse.
(06:56):
So, you know, that's, that'swho I am and that's where, that,
that's where I'm coming from.
We just gotta be more honest, more,uh, fair with each other about
talking about what's really trueabout us as flawed human beings.
We're, we're not perfect.
And we've talked a lotabout men's imperfections.
(07:18):
We really need to get to a pointwhere we can talk about women's
imperfections without being mean about it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jack, it's very importantwhat you're saying.
And my wife and I, we had a veryhealthy conversation before we,
(07:40):
we got on here today to have thisconversation because it's, it's
one of those needed conversations.
We are damaged as a societyand it's, it's really urgent
that we address these things.
So my first question is, Whydon't you have a podcast?
(08:05):
The honest answer, Ed, is because
it's a lot of work.
I did do a podcast.
Yes, and you know, you knowvery well how much work it is.
And I did do a podcast for awhile, but I didn't find it
very fulfilling, um, compared tothe amount of work it required.
(08:30):
And, you know, it's probably gotsomething to do with the fact that,
you know, like a lot of passionatepeople, I think I've got some,
some important ideas that I want toconvey, that I want to get out there.
And when you're a podcast hostand you have people coming in from
(08:53):
all directions, it's your dutyto help them tell their story.
And lots of times my guests justdidn't seem like they really had a
whole lot new or important to say.
And so I was doing all this workso they could say what they wanted
to say and it's like, Yeah, butyou're really missing the point.
(09:17):
Now I understand that that's kind ofegotistical, but you know, that's,
that's where I am, that's where I am.
I've been doing this since 1983 andyou know, I sort of am at the point
where I think I, I do have some,some expertise in these issues.
Uh, I've considered them fairly, fully,uh, I've been through a lot of different
(09:40):
ideas, a lot of different points of view.
Sometimes I've been optimistic,sometimes I've been pessimistic.
Sometimes I think women are really great,and sometimes I think women really aren't
so great the way they're treating men.
So, I sort of, uh, I, I, Idon't have a podcast 'cause
(10:01):
I'm, I'm not as nice as you are.
No.
Now I, I don't believe that, Jack.
But anyway, that's for another debate.
You know, we, we are definitelyhurting and it is crucial that we
have conversations like this nomatter who hosts the conversation.
(10:21):
And, and you are correct, itis to highlight the guest.
And, and that's what we do hereon the Dead America Podcast.
And that's why I really am going toenjoy today's conversation because
it's one of those conversationsthat I'm passionate about.
I think we are broken.
(10:42):
We're not polarized, we're just smashed.
And sometimes you have to be smashedinto rubble to be able to form
yourself into this concrete block.
And I think that's where we arewith relationship, men and women.
Uh, there is no man versuswoman, it's human beings.
(11:07):
And I think we all forgot that, menand women, how we treat each other
with respect, and dignity, and honor.
This is really hurting, not onlyAmerica, but the world because
everybody looks on to America asthe so-called leader of the world.
(11:30):
And I think we're shamed thereat the current moment also.
So it's really about beingtruthful, forthright, and yes,
telling it how you see it.
Because if we don't understandeach other and how we actually see
these problems, there's no way out.
(11:52):
So it's critical that we understandwe are broken and women have just
as much right as men to feel broken.
And we, both sexes, need tounderstand that and come together
to form that concrete now.
(12:15):
What do you think about that, Jack?
I think that's great.
I love your metaphor about havingto break, uh, break things down to
rubble sometimes to be able to reformthem in a, in a, a new shape and a,
and a usable block for the buildingof, uh, a new and improved society.
(12:35):
I agree with, I, I like, Ilike the way you put that.
I think, I think you're right.
Yeah.
So, so our relationships are broken, Jack.
How do we approach thisproblem other than podcasting?
How do we approach the problemwith a rational approach?
(13:01):
Well, that's, that's a great question.
I think the first thing to say about howwe do it is that we think in terms of
ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty years.
I think that's how deep this goes.
(13:21):
You know, the, the women's movementstarted late fifties, maybe some
people even traced it to theforties with Rosie the Riveter.
Forties, fifties, sixties.
In 1963 Betty Friedan publishedher book, The Feminine Mystique.
That's often regarded as the, the,the starting point for the current
(13:42):
brand of feminism, which I think BettyFriedan would not be happy with, to
see what has happened to her ideas.
Um, her book was not an, itwas not anti-male at all.
She talked about a lot of things thatshe doesn't like that men think about
(14:03):
women, but she didn't blame men.
She pointed to the culture, you know,the ideas that we are raised with.
She wasn't mean about it.
She, she actually was prettysympathetic to the fact that life
was, well, she wrote a book about thedifficulties that women were having.
(14:23):
Um, but in her book, sheincluded recognition that it
wasn't a picnic for men either.
She, she even pointed out in her book,approvingly, a magazine article in Red
Book Magazine, a very influential women'smagazine in, I think it was April of 1962,
(14:45):
and the, the, the title of the articlewas Why Young Husbands Feel Trapped.
And this is Betty Friedan, the womanwho pretty much launched the current
wave of feminism, was one of theco-founders of the National Organization
for Women, was the first president ofthe National Organization for Women.
(15:08):
Very strong woman's advocate,but not a detractor of men.
And in the 1980s, about, uh, seventeento twenty some years after she, she
wrote her book, she wrote, she wasbasically a magazine writer in her
(15:30):
early career, she got an article intoRed Book Magazine herself that said,
the dialogue has gone on too long interms of women alone, let men join
women at the center of the second stage.
She was saying, We reallyneed to hear from men here.
(15:53):
I think the biggest mistake that thewomen's movement made, and, uh, and
you can't trace this to Betty Friedanbecause she didn't do this, but in
the late sixties, about six yearsafter Betty Friedan published The
Feminine Mystique, a group of womenin New York called The Red Stockings,
(16:14):
published The Red Stockings Manifesto.
Now I can't prove this, butit certainly is plausible.
It makes sense, it, all the pieces fit.
When Betty Friedan published TheFeminine Mystique, it was about how women
(16:36):
needed more opportunity in their lives.
Many women, uh, interviewed and,uh, polled for Betty Friedan's book
were college educated women and theyliked being mothers, they liked being
important to their families, theylove their husbands, but too much
of any good thing is a bad thing.
(16:57):
And the problem that had no name,as Betty Friedan called it, was
that there were women who wantedto do more than be at home, taking
care of kids, running a house.
Women wanted to be lawyers, doctors,women wanna be astronauts, soldiers, CEOs.
And
(17:19):
you know, it was a shame all thoseyears that we wasted all of that talent.
Uh, but we did.
And at the same time that BettyFriedan was talking about what
women needed, she also recognizedthat it wasn't a picnic for men.
And I'm old enough to remember that backin the early days of the women's movement,
(17:42):
a lot of men were sort of excited aboutwhat Betty Friedan was talking about.
Because it occurred to us thatit was gonna be good for us in
at least two very important ways.
One, as women made money in their ownjobs, the pressure on men to make all of
(18:02):
the families' money would be lessened.
And that's one of the hugestdisadvantages of being a traditional
male, you're making the money andall of the pressure is on you.
And if the kids don't have the moneyfor the braces they need, or the new
shoes, or to go to a good school,you know, that's sort of on the man
(18:24):
for, for not being a good provider.
So number one, less pressureon men to make money.
Number two, if anybody had asked, would'vebeen that a lot of men would've said,
Yeah, you know, something else that wewould really like if we're really going
to pursue this idea of gender equalityand not pigeonholing men into one space
(18:48):
and women into another, just by virtueof their sex, another thing we'd really
like as men would be, we'd really like tohave more time to get to know our kids.
We don't want to be working forty,fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty hours a
week full time with all this pressureon us and coming home tired and grumpy.
(19:11):
We wanna have betterrelationships with our kids.
Women want to be equal in,in the world of business,
we would like to be equalin the world of the family.
That's what we would like.
So when men started talking about that,women who were thinking of becoming
(19:34):
feminists and joining the women'smovement sort of had some second thoughts.
And a lot of women were kind of hesitantabout this women's movement thing because
this women's movement thing, this women'slib idea, well, we like part of it, we
want, we wanna have more opportunitiesfor ourselves, but we're not really
(19:55):
interested in giving up what we have.
Of being the CEOs of the family, and,and the main person in the family,
and the, the person who has theprimary relationship with the kids.
We don't wanna give that up.
We wanna, we wanna get, but thatwe're not so interested in giving.
(20:17):
Well, that presented the problemfor the women's movement.
How can you be talking aboutfairness and equality between the
sexes when you're only interested,interested in hearing about and
working on the problems of one sex?
(20:38):
So how did they, how did the, the women'smovement justify not paying any attention
to this crazy idea men had about beingless responsible for making money and
for being more involved in the familysphere, which has previously, up till now,
been the, the primary domain of women?
(20:59):
Well, the way they justified notlistening to men was with this,
uh, Red Stockings Manifesto.
Which said, in part, women are oppressed,
our oppression is total.
(21:19):
It actually said that.
Women's oppression is total.
We identify men as theagents of our oppression.
So if you can get that idea, which theydid into the media, whole hog, media
(21:40):
ate it up, uh, get it into policymakingand government, if you can get it
into academia and the social sciences,if you can get that idea accepted
uncritically that men are oppressorsand women are oppressed, well, then
the oppressed women don't need to askthe oppressors, What would you like?
(22:03):
You get to treat 'em any way youwant, including killing them,
annihilating them, banishing them.
That's pretty much where we are.
Men are not listened to.
We, nobody's asking, What do you need?
What would you like?
What would, what would a genderequal world look like to you?
(22:26):
No, we are not part of the solution.
We are the problem.
And it's not working to operate on theidea that only one sex is ever sexist and
only one sex is ever harmed by sexism.
It's not working.
And so how do we, how do, I think you,I started this answer with your question
(22:52):
of how do we, what do we do, right?
Um, what, what we do is, well,
the easy, the easy part actually, Ithink is, to ask fair-minded women, not
the squeaky wheels, not the ones whoreally hate men and really think men are
(23:15):
oppressors and women have been oppressed,but to ask the really equal minded,
fair-minded, honorable women who lovemen, love their husbands, love their sons,
love their brothers, love their uncles,love men in general, appreciate men.
To call upon, encourage, plead,perhaps, with those kind of women to
(23:41):
just stand up for us when you can.
Like if you're out with your girlfriendsafter work, let's say, and you know,
three or four of them start, startharping on some terrible thing about
men, and it's very sweeping and overgeneralized and just not very based in
context, or understanding, or empathy,or anything, it would be great if
(24:08):
women who appreciate men were tosay something like, Ladies, um, you
know, we've talked a lot about howmen are sexist and, and how sexism is
so harmful to the targets of sexism.
Uh, we certainly talk about how wehave been, we as women have been
(24:31):
harmed by men's sexism against us.
But listen to us, listen to us.
We're doing the samething, we gotta stop this.
We really need to respect men,ask men what's going on with them.
Treat them as stakeholders.
We talk about diversity and inclusion.
I mean, come on.
(24:51):
We've excluded men for fifty yearsin this discussion of how we're
gonna refabricate our society alonggender fair, gender equal lines.
We gotta stop this.
That's the easy part, asking womento stand up because I think women are
sort of more courageous in this topic.
(25:13):
The hard part is going to begetting men to say anything, and
there's lots of reasons for that.
It's almost like we are in exactlythe wrong spot to be able to
say anything about this because,you know, the last thing a man
wants to, to, to be is a whiner.
(25:38):
Men don't like to whine,
men don't, men don't like to complain.
Men like to see a problemand solve the problem.
And if they're, you know, realmacho guys, they're not gonna
admit that there's any problemthat they can't solve on their own.
Because a macho guy says, Ah,if I got a problem, I fix it.
(26:01):
And if somebody gives me a hardtime, I kick 'em in the ass
and I take care of it myself.
Well, you can't, you know, very well as a,as a honorable man, you know, kick the ass
of a woman who's given you a hard time.
So, you know, that'sa problem right there.
Um, men do not want to be viewed asclaiming to be victims of any kind.
(26:24):
Oh, now men are victims too.
And that's an honorable thing, mendon't want to be seen as victims.
We don't want to complainthat we're victims.
But you know, the truth of the matteris sometimes there are bigger problems
than you can solve that are adverselyaffecting you, the people you love
(26:46):
and care about, and your society.
You can think of that if you wantto, or if you really don't want to.
You can think of thatas claiming victimhood.
But really it's just being honest andsaying, Hey, we got a big problem here
and, uh, we all gotta get together andwork on this because it's eaten us alive.
(27:10):
So
men do not want to complain,we don't wanna whine.
One of the things that is very big inmale culture, and I think it's probably
to a different degree, or at leastin a different direction with female
culture, is that what makes a man, a man?
(27:30):
In many ways, and I don't, I don't meanto give a prescription of what a real
man is, 'cause I, I do have a definitionthat's very much at odds with this.
But one of the things that's very bigin male culture that many men subscribe
to is, that a good and honorable manis a man who gives more than he takes.
(27:53):
He gives more than he takes.
But
one of the things we need to ask mento keep in mind is what the flight
attendant tells you at the beginningof every flight about what you should
do if you're sitting next to yourkid and the oxygen mask comes down.
(28:21):
You, you've been on a jet,you've been on a jet liner?
Put yours on first.
Put yours on first.
Why?
Why do you put yours on first?
Why, why do they want you to do that?
Yeah, of course.
You're no good if you're rendereduseless so make sure that
(28:45):
you can survive to carry on.
Worry about yourself, and then others.
And, and its true principle.
Yes.
And so we can ask men to overcome theirreticence about putting themself first
in line in terms of what's needed rightnow to recognize that, you know, if
(29:11):
you're not functioning well, you'reno good to the people you care about.
You gotta take something.
You, you gotta, you gotta havesome resources to be alive.
And you know, with that in mind,
it would be good if men started talkingabout what we need and how we're
(29:40):
really sort of like waiting to inhale.
You know, we need some oxygen.
And, and that oxygen isn'tjust O2, it's not just the gas.
It's appreciation, respect, caring,empathy, all of these things that
(30:01):
sort of used to be much more abundantin the culture than they are now,
especially across gender lines.
So that's how I think we started.
Be patient, it's notgonna happen overnight.
It's gonna take decades.
And to start small, start humble,don't get angry if you can avoid it.
(30:29):
Understand if you feel angry, what doyou really feel before anger jumps in?
What you really might feel is sad,afraid, frustrated, alone, insecure,
and talk about those things.
You know, like you say to your buddies,You know, I, look, I'm really worried
(30:52):
about my kids and my grandkids.
You guys worry about that?
Do you, do you think that we asmen are, are being as helpful in
this society as we, as we'd liketo be and making things better?
You know, um, and I think alot of men would say, Uh, no.
(31:16):
And then, you know, the whole idea ofmen being together is suspect these days.
The Pew Research Center recently dida, released a study that shows that
people are far more suspicious of mengetting together in male only groups
(31:38):
than they are about women gettingtogether in female only groups.
Very much related to that researchis research that shows that with all
of the talk we've had over the pastseveral years about implicit bias,
at least one study found, a peerreviewed, peer reviewed, uh, piece of
(32:02):
research, at least one article foundthat the strongest and deepest implicit
bias is not against blacks, it's notagainst any other ethnic group, it's
not against women, the strongestimplicit bias of all is against men.
(32:29):
It's against men.
And
so, you know, what does, what does thatmean when men want to get together as
men, you know, to go bowling, or tosit and have a few beers, or to, you
know, just to sort of talk about ourgrandkids, or whatever it is, just to
get to know each other and, and bond?
(32:50):
Oh, what are they doing?
What are those men doing?
What are they talking about?
It's the patriarchy, wegotta smash the patriarchy.
They're oppressors.
You know, we, we gotta get over that andsay, No, actually, we went bowling and
we got to know each other a little bit.
And a couple fellows showed mepictures of their grandkids and I
(33:11):
showed 'em pictures of my grandkids.
And it was really fun and Ican't wait to go back next week.
And that's an importantthing too, right there.
Some, some men will feel, um, especiallyin light of research that shows that men,
more than women these days, are sayingthey don't spend enough time with their
(33:34):
kids, some men will feel that when theyhave any spare time, they really should be
with their families and with their kids.
But again, men need a little bitof oxygen from outside the family.
And so taking two or three hoursper week to be with a group of men
(34:03):
is not being selfish to your family.
It's grabbing that oxygen mask,getting what you need so that when
you go home, you're feeling good,strong, kind, loving, patient.
And when I was doing a podcast, I hada guest on, his name was Jim Ellis,
(34:28):
recently deceased, who was an advocate,was a, a, a member, very active
member of a group, I, I don't think Iremember the name exactly, something
about Motivate, inspire and something.
Um, but we talked about this onour podcast, that, what, what,
(34:48):
do women ever say, Why are youspending time with those men?
He said, Ask my wife.
When I come home from a meeting, from myweekly meeting with this group of men,
I am so full of energy, I'm so pumpedup, I'm so happy, I am so alive that she
(35:11):
wants me to never missthat meeting any week.
It's good for the man, it'sgood for the relationship,
it's good for the woman, it's good forthe kids, it's good for the family.
You extend that out, it's good for thecommunity for men to not listen to all
(35:31):
of the male bashings that's, that'sout there in our culture right now.
Who needs men?
It's the end of men.
Men are clueless, men are sex crazed, menjust want to drink beer and watch sports.
Men are, they can't multitask,you know, all of that stuff.
Men are slobs, all of that stuff.
Men are oppressors, men are violent.
(35:54):
You know, if, if, if you, if youare immersed in that thinking
about a group of people, do youwanna go hang out with them?
No.
Why would I want to go hang out with abunch of people who oppress other people?
But that's, that's the brand, that'sthe reputation of men these days.
(36:16):
Now, we, we mentioned the, the women whoare honorable and really care about men.
We gotta recognize thatthere are many women
who are not honorable about men, whoblame all of their unhappiness on men.
(36:37):
Some of which might be well placed,because who knows what happened to
them in, you know, in, when they wereyoung, in their families, at school.
Who knows, who knows what happened.
But there are also many women whosejob, who get paid pretty well by
(37:01):
organizations, nonprofit organizationsfunded by the big philanthropies,
The Ford Foundation, The RockefellerFoundation, by the federal government,
um, professional feminists whose job isto do everything they can to make sure
(37:23):
that the focus stays on women as havingproblems and men as causing problems.
And that is really corrosive,it's really corrosive.
Well, well, you know, Jack, that,that tells me right there, there's
(37:47):
a, a challenge or a war being placedon the natural order of things.
There's always been a natural orderto men and women, and traditionally.
But besides the traditionalroles, it's a natural order that
(38:09):
those roles have been based on.
And there has been this big blunt,blatant attack on that natural order.
And I've, I've kind of witnessed thisfor, you know, my whole life, and, you
(38:30):
know, I'm, I'm about to turn sixty.
So there's, there's this, you know,war that's been brewing and building
over this long period of time,and it's got this pendulum effect.
And as we react and they react, thependulum keeps swinging back and forth.
(38:57):
What I see is it's gonna take thestrength of men in that natural order
to grab the pendulum and stop thependulum from going back and forth,
and that will help restore a balance.
And that bickering back and forththat you were talking about, is a
(39:20):
big, big deal about all of that.
Ed, I understand what you're saying.
I wanna present to you somedifferent thinking about that.
I, I under, I understand whatyou're saying, I respect it.
And, and you are thinking about what dowe need to do to, to stop this craziness.
(39:45):
When you talk about the naturalorder, what I hear, what I think
of, is the primitive order.
The primitive order when we were,when we were a small band of human
beings walking across the grasslandsof the Serengeti in Africa.
(40:08):
Very vulnerable to being madeextinct by having a saber tooth
tiger jump out of the, I don'tknow, the grasses, or the jungle, or
whatever's there, and, and eating us.
Yeah.
Well, the Serengeti's grasslands.
(40:28):
Yeah.
So, um, you know, and when we were,when we were vulnerable, when we were
living very primitively, we had totake every opportunity to eek out
every bit of efficiency we could toensure that we survived until tomorrow.
(40:54):
So what that meant was, and thisis where natural order sort of
plays into what you're saying,
we said, Okay, we have babieshere, these babies are important
for the survival of the species.
The woman has the breasts,
(41:16):
I've got the bigger muscles, I'm theman, I've got the bigger muscles.
So it's not the natural orderyet 'cause we haven't started it.
But the smart thing for us to dois to have you be in charge of the
babies and I'll be in charge ofkeeping the saber tooth tigers at bay.
(41:40):
As we became more and more civilizedand we started having things like
laws and customs, and taboos, andconstables and jails and you know, as
we became more civilized and had morerules about what's gonna be acceptable
(42:05):
among human beings and what's not,
we still kept those primitiveideas of what women needed to
do and what men needed to do.
Now in the forties, and fifties, andsixties, a lot of women didn't need
(42:28):
to always have a baby on their hip.
The kids could have been at school, right?
Um,
so, so
as civilization became more and moredeveloped, it became more and more
possible for us to not have to be sospecialized in the idea that women are
(42:53):
taking care of the kids and the men aretaking care of everything on the outside.
For instance, I mean, would you, would youagree or would you not agree, how do you
feel about women wanting to be doctors?
Is that okay with you or is thata violation of the natural order?
No, that's perfectly fine with me.
(43:15):
Yeah.
Okay.
Now, in the 1890s, I've read thediaries of various pioneering women
who dared to say to their families,especially their fathers, um,
(43:35):
I, I, I'm not, no, I don't wanna, Idon't wanna marry John from the, you
know, mercantile exchange even though youthink I should, I want to be a doctor.
Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
That's, no, no.
(43:56):
Or even worse than adoctor, I wanna be a lawyer.
Oh my God, you want to turn yourback on, on your natural God-given
place in life?
You, a woman who's supposed to be allabout loving and caring, and listening,
(44:18):
and making people happy and feel good,and trying to patch up, uh, disagreements.
You wanna give all that upand become a lawyer and argue
all day and get paid for it?
What kind of a woman are you?
That's, there might besomething wrong with you.
And so the, the pioneeringwomen had to get over that and
(44:42):
they have gotten way over that.
Lots of women are great doctors, lotsof women are great lawyers, lots of
women are great politicians, greatscientists, great business people.
We got over all of those stereotypes.
The problem is, I think that with all ofthat success that women have wrought for
(45:06):
themselves, following Betty Friedan's bookabout how women need to have more options,
men have far, still today have farfewer options to achieve what we
were thinking we might get from thisidea of overcoming sexist stereotypes
(45:31):
and, and rigid gender roles.
Now I know it's true that there aremore and more men who are getting
into the formerly female domain,and we have full-time fathers now.
Full-time fathers who stayhome, take care of the kids.
When I see them at the playground, I askthem, How do you like the fatherhood gig?
(45:55):
And they say two things.
Almost always, they say two things.
They'll say, I love it.
But then they immediatelyfollow with, It's a lot of work.
And then I respond with, Well,well, when you were working, that
was a lot of work too, wasn't it?
And they smile and they laugh andthey say, Yeah, I guess that was too.
(46:18):
So there are people who look atthose guys and sort of treat them the
way, in the late 1800's, we treatedwomen who didn't wanna stay home
and they wanted to become lawyers.
Here's this guy who was a lawyer,hated it, hated it, but really
(46:40):
likes teaching, working with, beinga primary influence on his kids.
And not only that, he's married to thatlawyer, or her great granddaughter,
he's, and they rely on each other.
She can go and do her job, become,work to become a partner in
(47:02):
six years in the big law firm.
But she needs to know that the kidsare safe and the kids are okay.
She doesn't have to always bethinking and worrying about the kids.
Joe's got it.
And I know Joe loves those kids, and Iknow he is a great man and a smart guy,
and I love him and I don't have to worry.
(47:23):
And it works, it works.
Now that's, that's the hundredpercent, a hundred percent proposition.
There's a bazillion differentcombinations you can have of that.
You know, where not every woman who wantsto be a lawyer wants to make partner.
A woman who wants to be a lawyermight wanna just, you know, sort
of, you know, give it 50%, theother 50%, she wants to be the mom.
(47:48):
All kinds of permutations of that.
But the problem is that when we thinkabout work/life balance at the law firm,
we're thinking about policies towardwomen who need to take time off from
work to go and take care of the kids.
We don't think at all about policiesfor the male lawyers who would
(48:13):
love to take some time off so theycan go and take care of the kids.
So really, what is this, thisis all about, this is all about
changing the natural order.
I mean, the natural order is,the essence of the natural order
is that parents love their kids,mothers and fathers love their kids.
(48:38):
And the natural order is thatthey're, that they're human beings
and they're smart, and they can thinkabout what's the best way to do this.
And they can do all kinds of things.
So this, this could be consideredreinventing yourselves.
(48:58):
Women reinvented themselves bysaying, We're not gonna just be
mothers and stay at home all day.
We love that.
But that's, we want, wewant other things too.
We, women reinvented themselvesas astronauts, and soldiers,
and politicians, and doctors,and lawyers, that's wonderful.
(49:19):
We need men to be able to reinventthemselves, and it's perfectly
understandable that we need, thatmen need to reinvent themselves.
Because look at how their traditionalrole has been made pretty much
impossible or very, very difficultthese days with the fact that many
(49:40):
blue collar jobs, many manufacturingjobs, many jobs for which a high school
diploma was a ticket to a good life,
the economy of men's occupations hasreally changed strongly, even drastically.
(50:02):
So let's, let's talk aboutreinvention a little bit.
Back in the beginning daysof IBM, the corporation,
IBM's main business wasto make big computers.
I think they had a nicknamelike Big Metal, or Big Iron,
(50:23):
or something like that.
And they were doing reallywell making physical computers,
you know, as big as a room.
But as computers advanced, and advanced,and advanced, became smaller, and smaller,
and smaller, and more and more companiescame into that space with innovations
(50:45):
about how to make computers better,less expensive, different technologies.
Big Blue, IBM said, Whoa, things havereally changed for us, our business model.
What are we gonna do?
We keep this up, we'regonna be out of business.
(51:06):
What they did was theyreinvented themselves.
A bunch of smartexecutives said, All right.
What are the two main components of the,of, of a computer that's doing good work?
Well, we've been working onone, the iron, the machine, but
it's nothing without software.
It's nothing.
(51:26):
Without networking, we're gonna become,we're gonna reinvent ourselves as a
software and computer services company.
Reinvented themselves, it worked,and they've been thriving.
Similarly, I know it's a big, it's abig jolt to a lot of men's thinking.
(51:49):
Although I think underneaththey might be thinking, Woo, I
would kind of like to try that.
Men reinvent themselves.
Take the, take their, take theiressential components, what are
all the good things about men?
And apply them to running ahouse with a bunch of kids.
(52:12):
Raising the kids, uh, helping thekids learn how to be good people.
I used to work for NationalFatherhood Initiative and at NFI,
we had a word that we made up.
I didn't make it up, it wasthere before I got there.
It was, it's firmth.
The word is firmth.
And, and NFI used to talk aboutit as a characteristic and a
(52:37):
quality that men, especially, wereable to provide for their kids.
Firmth is a combinationof firmness and warmth.
And if you think about, you know,a really, if you think about a
really good dad, the kind of dad wewould all like to have, he's firm
(52:57):
with you but he's warm with you.
And he's not shaming youand he's not out of control.
He's saying, Look, you, you didthis and here's why that's not good.
Here's why you shouldn't do it again.
I asked you not to do it,and so you did it anyhow.
(53:18):
Well, I, you, there's gonna be someconsequences for your disobeying
me and here's the consequences.
But I still love you, and you'restill a great kid, and I'm just
trying to help make you greater,and greater, and greater.
So that when you grow up, youcan make my grandkids as good
as I'm trying to make you,
(53:39):
you know?
And so it's, when, when we think of beinga mother now, we think of everything being
sort of pink and frilly and kind and nice.
And I mean, look, women inventedparticipation trophies, right?
Isn't that the kind of thing women do?
(54:00):
You know, participation trophies didn'tcome from out of a man's imagination.
It wasn't so important thatevery kid feel like a star.
No, you're not a star in soccer,but you know, you're gonna
be a star playing the drums.
I can see it.
What'd we, what do you, how doyou wanna do that, you know?
Um,
(54:21):
being a father, it is a very essentiallymale masculine thing when it's done right.
And there's a lot of joy andopportunity there for men to reinvent
themselves for this new economy.
And again, it doesn't haveto be a hundred percent.
He's taking care of kids.
(54:43):
There's lots of opportunities forside hustles, side gigs for the
man to also be making a littlebit of money, but still being able
to be the primary parent at home.
That's what I think needs to happen.
Not every woman, however this is,this is, this is where it gets, you
know, a little bit less than ideal.
(55:05):
We've talked so far about the woman whois a great lawyer and wants to be the,
wants to be a partner in six years, andthe, the husband who's really digging the
idea of being a nurturing parent at home.
And so she loves that idea of lettinghim have primary, uh, influence at home.
(55:28):
The truth of the matter is that notevery woman has a fabulous career
and not every woman therefore isinterested in sharing or turning over
to a man, her role as the mother.
Many women just havejobs, they just have jobs.
(55:53):
And they're not so thrilled aboutthe idea of having their husband
take half of their job or sharingthe CEO suite in the family.
These women are watching theclock nine to five every day.
They can't wait to get the helloutta there, they wanna get home.
Why do they wanna get home?
Because home is where the heartis, that's where their love is.
(56:16):
And so they're not so interestedin having this guy be there equal.
Even further along this point, thereare many women who don't even have
jobs other than to be a mother.
And you know, those women arereally not interested in letting
(56:38):
the fathers of their kids
share.
Certainly not gonna let 'emhave primary influence over the
kids, but is gonna be very, veryreluctant to even share it 50/50.
I'm the mother, you'll hearthem say, I'm the mother,
(57:00):
where's the money?
Where's the money?
You are a sorry excuse for a man.
Where's the money?
And the guy is thinking, Well,I don't, I don't happen to
be very good at making money.
But these kids and I have greattimes when we're together.
And I'm reading them stories, andplaying games with them, and teaching
(57:22):
them various things, it's working.
So maybe you should get out thereand make some money, you know?
Um, that's, you know, that's my, that'smy view of what would be a lot happier and
healthier, uh, society with men and, menand women both treating each other fairly.
(57:47):
We men have given up the idea that weshould be in total control of the economy.
We need to ask women to get over theidea that they need to be in total
control, top dog, CEO, in the family.
(58:08):
It's gotta be shared, and if it canbe shared, we don't have to worry
about who gets what slice of the pie.
We don't have to worry about that one pie.
If we're treating each other fairly and wehave a good relationship, we have synergy.
It's not just one plus one equals two,it's one plus one equals infinity.
(58:29):
And we don't have to worry about onepie, we can create a whole bakery.
We can make all the pies we wantbecause we're working together.
We love each other, we'recooperating, we're trying to optimize.
The sky's the limit.
You know, we're not lockedinto this one little equation
of one plus one equals two.
(58:51):
So, um, so the way I see it is thatthe rate limiting step right here
is women's willingness to share.
Nobody gives up power for nothing,but smart people will share it.
(59:12):
That's, that's the key right there.
I, I, I really believe that, Jack.
You know, the, the more that wecan transition into a sharing
world, the better for all of us.
You know, the toy box is full of toys.
We can all share the toys.
(59:33):
It's, it's fabulous if we justlet people create their own lives.
And I, I really believe that'swhat the essence of what
you're saying is all about.
You have to let peopledecide what they are.
So,
(59:54):
Yes, that's a, that'sa great way to put it.
I love that idea of the, ofthe toy box full of toys.
Yes.
It's like unlimited potential.
Yeah, Yeah.
It's, it's, that's right.
Life is what you wanna makeit so get out there and build
what you want your world to be.
(01:00:16):
Gandhi, you know, Be the changein the world that you want to see.
And it will happen ifeverybody gets on that page.
Jack, what you're doing is great.
You're out there spreading good word,you know, inspiring deep thought.
That's really what weneed in our world today.
(01:00:37):
I wanna say thank you forsharing that here today.
Could you, one, let people know how toget ahold of you, get involved with you?
And two, do you have a call toaction for our listeners today?
Yes.
It's a pretty small call to action,but I, but it would make a, a,
a world of difference to me andI would really appreciate it.
(01:01:00):
Um, the, the place to, uh, get ahold of meis at my website, malefriendlymedia.com,
that's all one word, no hyphens.
malefriendlymedia.com.
Uh, at malefriendlymedia.com, Ihave a contact, uh, menu item if
(01:01:20):
you want to send me a message.
Um, I also have a follow menu itemin which I ask you to please give
me your email address and I'llkeep you posted of anything that I
write and publish on Substack, orMedium, to big blogging platforms.
Uh, I'll also let you know, um, when I doa podcast appearance and, uh, when that
(01:01:45):
podcast is published and what the link is.
Uh, uh, you know, it, it's beena great conversation and there's
not time enough to get everythinginto a conversation like this.
So Jack, I'm gonna reach out to youhere later on and ask you back so we can
continue with this great conversation.
(01:02:07):
And I wanna say thankyou for being here today.
I wanna thank you for being here today.
You're doing the work, you'redoing the hard work, and thank you.
I, podcasting is a, is a verywonderful feature of, it's, it's a
very wonderful resource for what wehope will be the healing of America.
(01:02:30):
Because it's, we're not, we'renot hiding behind a keyboard.
You are a host, I am a guest, wehave some civility between us.
It's very much different from, verymuch different from lobbing hand
grenades at each other on Twitter.
So I love podcasting and thankyou for making it possible.
(01:02:51):
Well, it, it's great tohave guests like you, Jack.
The traditional media is dyingand this is the new media form, so
people should get serious about it.
So thank you for being here today, Jack.
Thank you, Ed.
Thank you for joining us today.
If you found this podcast enlightening,entertaining, educational in any way,
(01:03:18):
please share, like, subscribe, and joinus right back here next week for another
great episode of the Dead America Podcast.
I'm Ed Watters, your host, enjoyyour afternoon wherever you might be.
You can think of that if you wantto, or if you really don't want to.
You can think of thatas claiming victimhood.
But really it's just being honest andsaying, Hey, we got a big problem here
and, uh, we all gotta get together andwork on this because it's eaten us alive.
(00:54):
Today, we are speaking with Jack Kammer.
Jack has a website, malefriendlymedia.com.
Jack, could you please introduce yourself?
Let people know just a littlemore about you, please.
Uh, hi Ed.
Thank you.
Well, let's see.
I am a retired social worker.
(01:16):
I went to social work school at theage of fifty-four, um, after I had a
career as a marketing PR/IT person.
But my hobby that, my advocation,my passion was about what I did
(01:38):
without getting paid for it.
And that was to be an advocatefor men and boys around the
social issues of men and boys.
My first actual experience, and that wasin 1983 when I started the radio show
north of Baltimore, called The Lives ofMen, and it became pretty quickly clear
(02:02):
that there were a lot of important socialissues connected to what was really going
on with men as opposed to what some peopleliked to pretend was going on with men.
Which was that men have it easy,being male is nothing but a privilege,
(02:22):
being male is nothing but an advantage,and men don't have any problems,
and if they do, it's their ownfault, and men run the world, and
so stop talking about men's issues.
Only women have problems based on gender.
And I can't think of a moreincorrect statement about
(02:47):
the human species than that.
And I just became passionatelyinvolved, passionately concerned,
more and more convinced that ifwe're gonna have a healthy society,
we have to be willing to say suchradical things as most men are good.
(03:11):
Now, how do I like to say it?
Men aren't perfect, but we're great.
Women are great, but they're not perfect.
And, you know, being able to say thatwomen aren't perfect is a little risky
sometimes, crazy as that might sound.
Uh, you know, we, we live in a, ina, a spirit of the times in which
(03:37):
you can get into a fight by daringto suggest that women are human and
therefore inevitably will do bad things.
Um, and, you know, if youcan't talk about somebody's
flaws, you're, they'renever gonna get better.
(03:58):
You're never gonna have abetter relationship with them.
Uh, you're just gonna have to grind itout and, you know, maybe become resentful,
maybe decide to leave, maybe decide tobecome an alcoholic just to numb the pain
of having to deal with a person who won'tadmit that she ever does anything wrong.
(04:19):
Um, you know, to, to, to saythat a woman is not perfect these
days is often called misogyny.
You know, that to, to dare to, to saythat a woman is human and isn't perfect
is the equivalent, in some people'smind, as misogyny, woman hating.
(04:47):
And I've come to the conclusion thatthe greatest cause of misogyny these
days is overuse of the word misogynyfor the reasons we just talked about.
You know, if you, if, if I cannot sayanything that's the least bit critical
(05:07):
of a woman or of women in generalwithout being called a woman hater
and shamed, and shut down and shunned,well, my feelings about that woman
are not going to magically improve.
They're gonna go underground,they're gonna fester, and
they're not gonna get better.
(05:28):
We're not gonna improve ourrelationship, we might end up
in a divorce if we're married.
Um, so we really gotta get to abetter place where we approximate
the ability that women have tovoice very strongly what they would
like to see men do differently.
(05:50):
It would be great if men felt just asempowered, just as safe, uh, that they
would be just as respected, heard, andlistened to if we could say, Honey,
um, you know, there are a couple thingsI really would like to talk with you
about that are kind of driving me crazy.
(06:12):
And that can, that canoften go downhill very fast.
Now it's probably gonna, it'sprobably gonna go off better with
your wife because, you know, sheknows you and she loves you, we hope.
Then you know and love her, we hope.
But, you know, in the political spherewhere we are so, so, so polarized,
(06:34):
you really have, it's hard to be aman and to say anything about how you
think women take advantage of thingsin a way that's not fair sometimes.
I mean, just that can, can cause a huge,huge problems for a man and, and huge
problems for, uh, social discourse.
(06:56):
So, you know, that's, that'swho I am and that's where, that,
that's where I'm coming from.
We just gotta be more honest, more,uh, fair with each other about
talking about what's really trueabout us as flawed human beings.
We're, we're not perfect.
And we've talked a lotabout men's imperfections.
(07:18):
We really need to get to a pointwhere we can talk about women's
imperfections without being mean about it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jack, it's very importantwhat you're saying.
And my wife and I, we had a veryhealthy conversation before we,
(07:40):
we got on here today to have thisconversation because it's, it's
one of those needed conversations.
We are damaged as a societyand it's, it's really urgent
that we address these things.
So my first question is, Whydon't you have a podcast?
(08:05):
The honest answer, Ed, is because
it's a lot of work.
I did do a podcast.
Yes, and you know, you knowvery well how much work it is.
And I did do a podcast for awhile, but I didn't find it
very fulfilling, um, compared tothe amount of work it required.
(08:30):
And, you know, it's probably gotsomething to do with the fact that,
you know, like a lot of passionatepeople, I think I've got some,
some important ideas that I want toconvey, that I want to get out there.
And when you're a podcast hostand you have people coming in from
(08:53):
all directions, it's your dutyto help them tell their story.
And lots of times my guests justdidn't seem like they really had a
whole lot new or important to say.
And so I was doing all this workso they could say what they wanted
to say and it's like, Yeah, butyou're really missing the point.
(09:17):
Now I understand that that's kind ofegotistical, but you know, that's,
that's where I am, that's where I am.
I've been doing this since 1983 andyou know, I sort of am at the point
where I think I, I do have some,some expertise in these issues.
Uh, I've considered them fairly, fully,uh, I've been through a lot of different
(09:40):
ideas, a lot of different points of view.
Sometimes I've been optimistic,sometimes I've been pessimistic.
Sometimes I think women are really great,and sometimes I think women really aren't
so great the way they're treating men.
So, I sort of, uh, I, I, Idon't have a podcast 'cause
(10:01):
I'm, I'm not as nice as you are.
No.
Now I, I don't believe that, Jack.
But anyway, that's for another debate.
You know, we, we are definitelyhurting and it is crucial that we
have conversations like this nomatter who hosts the conversation.
(10:21):
And, and you are correct, itis to highlight the guest.
And, and that's what we do hereon the Dead America Podcast.
And that's why I really am going toenjoy today's conversation because
it's one of those conversationsthat I'm passionate about.
I think we are broken.
(10:42):
We're not polarized, we're just smashed.
And sometimes you have to be smashedinto rubble to be able to form
yourself into this concrete block.
And I think that's where we arewith relationship, men and women.
Uh, there is no man versuswoman, it's human beings.
(11:07):
And I think we all forgot that, menand women, how we treat each other
with respect, and dignity, and honor.
This is really hurting, not onlyAmerica, but the world because
everybody looks on to America asthe so-called leader of the world.
(11:30):
And I think we're shamed thereat the current moment also.
So it's really about beingtruthful, forthright, and yes,
telling it how you see it.
Because if we don't understandeach other and how we actually see
these problems, there's no way out.
(11:52):
So it's critical that we understandwe are broken and women have just
as much right as men to feel broken.
And we, both sexes, need tounderstand that and come together
to form that concrete now.
(12:15):
What do you think about that, Jack?
I think that's great.
I love your metaphor about havingto break, uh, break things down to
rubble sometimes to be able to reformthem in a, in a, a new shape and a,
and a usable block for the buildingof, uh, a new and improved society.
(12:35):
I agree with, I, I like, Ilike the way you put that.
I think, I think you're right.
Yeah.
So, so our relationships are broken, Jack.
How do we approach thisproblem other than podcasting?
How do we approach the problemwith a rational approach?
(13:01):
Well, that's, that's a great question.
I think the first thing to say about howwe do it is that we think in terms of
ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty years.
I think that's how deep this goes.
(13:21):
You know, the, the women's movementstarted late fifties, maybe some
people even traced it to theforties with Rosie the Riveter.
Forties, fifties, sixties.
In 1963 Betty Friedan publishedher book, The Feminine Mystique.
That's often regarded as the, the,the starting point for the current
(13:42):
brand of feminism, which I think BettyFriedan would not be happy with, to
see what has happened to her ideas.
Um, her book was not an, itwas not anti-male at all.
She talked about a lot of things thatshe doesn't like that men think about
(14:03):
women, but she didn't blame men.
She pointed to the culture, you know,the ideas that we are raised with.
She wasn't mean about it.
She, she actually was prettysympathetic to the fact that life
was, well, she wrote a book about thedifficulties that women were having.
(14:23):
Um, but in her book, sheincluded recognition that it
wasn't a picnic for men either.
She, she even pointed out in her book,approvingly, a magazine article in Red
Book Magazine, a very influential women'smagazine in, I think it was April of 1962,
(14:45):
and the, the, the title of the articlewas Why Young Husbands Feel Trapped.
And this is Betty Friedan, the womanwho pretty much launched the current
wave of feminism, was one of theco-founders of the National Organization
for Women, was the first president ofthe National Organization for Women.
(15:08):
Very strong woman's advocate,but not a detractor of men.
And in the 1980s, about, uh, seventeento twenty some years after she, she
wrote her book, she wrote, she wasbasically a magazine writer in her
(15:30):
early career, she got an article intoRed Book Magazine herself that said,
the dialogue has gone on too long interms of women alone, let men join
women at the center of the second stage.
She was saying, We reallyneed to hear from men here.
(15:53):
I think the biggest mistake that thewomen's movement made, and, uh, and
you can't trace this to Betty Friedanbecause she didn't do this, but in
the late sixties, about six yearsafter Betty Friedan published The
Feminine Mystique, a group of womenin New York called The Red Stockings,
(16:14):
published The Red Stockings Manifesto.
Now I can't prove this, butit certainly is plausible.
It makes sense, it, all the pieces fit.
When Betty Friedan published TheFeminine Mystique, it was about how women
(16:36):
needed more opportunity in their lives.
Many women, uh, interviewed and,uh, polled for Betty Friedan's book
were college educated women and theyliked being mothers, they liked being
important to their families, theylove their husbands, but too much
of any good thing is a bad thing.
(16:57):
And the problem that had no name,as Betty Friedan called it, was
that there were women who wantedto do more than be at home, taking
care of kids, running a house.
Women wanted to be lawyers, doctors,women wanna be astronauts, soldiers, CEOs.
And
(17:19):
you know, it was a shame all thoseyears that we wasted all of that talent.
Uh, but we did.
And at the same time that BettyFriedan was talking about what
women needed, she also recognizedthat it wasn't a picnic for men.
And I'm old enough to remember that backin the early days of the women's movement,
(17:42):
a lot of men were sort of excited aboutwhat Betty Friedan was talking about.
Because it occurred to us thatit was gonna be good for us in
at least two very important ways.
One, as women made money in their ownjobs, the pressure on men to make all of
(18:02):
the families' money would be lessened.
And that's one of the hugestdisadvantages of being a traditional
male, you're making the money andall of the pressure is on you.
And if the kids don't have the moneyfor the braces they need, or the new
shoes, or to go to a good school,you know, that's sort of on the man
(18:24):
for, for not being a good provider.
So number one, less pressureon men to make money.
Number two, if anybody had asked, would'vebeen that a lot of men would've said,
Yeah, you know, something else that wewould really like if we're really going
to pursue this idea of gender equalityand not pigeonholing men into one space
(18:48):
and women into another, just by virtueof their sex, another thing we'd really
like as men would be, we'd really like tohave more time to get to know our kids.
We don't want to be working forty,fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty hours a
week full time with all this pressureon us and coming home tired and grumpy.
(19:11):
We wanna have betterrelationships with our kids.
Women want to be equal in,in the world of business,
we would like to be equalin the world of the family.
That's what we would like.
So when men started talking about that,women who were thinking of becoming
(19:34):
feminists and joining the women'smovement sort of had some second thoughts.
And a lot of women were kind of hesitantabout this women's movement thing because
this women's movement thing, this women'slib idea, well, we like part of it, we
want, we wanna have more opportunitiesfor ourselves, but we're not really
(19:55):
interested in giving up what we have.
Of being the CEOs of the family, and,and the main person in the family,
and the, the person who has theprimary relationship with the kids.
We don't wanna give that up.
We wanna, we wanna get, but thatwe're not so interested in giving.
(20:17):
Well, that presented the problemfor the women's movement.
How can you be talking aboutfairness and equality between the
sexes when you're only interested,interested in hearing about and
working on the problems of one sex?
(20:38):
So how did they, how did the, the women'smovement justify not paying any attention
to this crazy idea men had about beingless responsible for making money and
for being more involved in the familysphere, which has previously, up till now,
been the, the primary domain of women?
(20:59):
Well, the way they justified notlistening to men was with this,
uh, Red Stockings Manifesto.
Which said, in part, women are oppressed,
our oppression is total.
(21:19):
It actually said that.
Women's oppression is total.
We identify men as theagents of our oppression.
So if you can get that idea, which theydid into the media, whole hog, media
(21:40):
ate it up, uh, get it into policymakingand government, if you can get it
into academia and the social sciences,if you can get that idea accepted
uncritically that men are oppressorsand women are oppressed, well, then
the oppressed women don't need to askthe oppressors, What would you like?
(22:03):
You get to treat 'em any way youwant, including killing them,
annihilating them, banishing them.
That's pretty much where we are.
Men are not listened to.
We, nobody's asking, What do you need?
What would you like?
What would, what would a genderequal world look like to you?
(22:26):
No, we are not part of the solution.
We are the problem.
And it's not working to operate on theidea that only one sex is ever sexist and
only one sex is ever harmed by sexism.
It's not working.
And so how do we, how do, I think you,I started this answer with your question
(22:52):
of how do we, what do we do, right?
Um, what, what we do is, well,
the easy, the easy part actually, Ithink is, to ask fair-minded women, not
the squeaky wheels, not the ones whoreally hate men and really think men are
(23:15):
oppressors and women have been oppressed,but to ask the really equal minded,
fair-minded, honorable women who lovemen, love their husbands, love their sons,
love their brothers, love their uncles,love men in general, appreciate men.
To call upon, encourage, plead,perhaps, with those kind of women to
(23:41):
just stand up for us when you can.
Like if you're out with your girlfriendsafter work, let's say, and you know,
three or four of them start, startharping on some terrible thing about
men, and it's very sweeping and overgeneralized and just not very based in
context, or understanding, or empathy,or anything, it would be great if
(24:08):
women who appreciate men were tosay something like, Ladies, um, you
know, we've talked a lot about howmen are sexist and, and how sexism is
so harmful to the targets of sexism.
Uh, we certainly talk about how wehave been, we as women have been
(24:31):
harmed by men's sexism against us.
But listen to us, listen to us.
We're doing the samething, we gotta stop this.
We really need to respect men,ask men what's going on with them.
Treat them as stakeholders.
We talk about diversity and inclusion.
I mean, come on.
(24:51):
We've excluded men for fifty yearsin this discussion of how we're
gonna refabricate our society alonggender fair, gender equal lines.
We gotta stop this.
That's the easy part, asking womento stand up because I think women are
sort of more courageous in this topic.
(25:13):
The hard part is going to begetting men to say anything, and
there's lots of reasons for that.
It's almost like we are in exactlythe wrong spot to be able to
say anything about this because,you know, the last thing a man
wants to, to, to be is a whiner.
(25:38):
Men don't like to whine,
men don't, men don't like to complain.
Men like to see a problemand solve the problem.
And if they're, you know, realmacho guys, they're not gonna
admit that there's any problemthat they can't solve on their own.
Because a macho guy says, Ah,if I got a problem, I fix it.
(26:01):
And if somebody gives me a hardtime, I kick 'em in the ass
and I take care of it myself.
Well, you can't, you know, very well as a,as a honorable man, you know, kick the ass
of a woman who's given you a hard time.
So, you know, that'sa problem right there.
Um, men do not want to be viewed asclaiming to be victims of any kind.
(26:24):
Oh, now men are victims too.
And that's an honorable thing, mendon't want to be seen as victims.
We don't want to complainthat we're victims.
But you know, the truth of the matteris sometimes there are bigger problems
than you can solve that are adverselyaffecting you, the people you love
(26:46):
and care about, and your society.
You can think of that if you wantto, or if you really don't want to.
You can think of thatas claiming victimhood.
But really it's just being honest andsaying, Hey, we got a big problem here
and, uh, we all gotta get together andwork on this because it's eaten us alive.
(27:10):
So
men do not want to complain,we don't wanna whine.
One of the things that is very big inmale culture, and I think it's probably
to a different degree, or at leastin a different direction with female
culture, is that what makes a man, a man?
(27:30):
In many ways, and I don't, I don't meanto give a prescription of what a real
man is, 'cause I, I do have a definitionthat's very much at odds with this.
But one of the things that's very bigin male culture that many men subscribe
to is, that a good and honorable manis a man who gives more than he takes.
(27:53):
He gives more than he takes.
But
one of the things we need to ask mento keep in mind is what the flight
attendant tells you at the beginningof every flight about what you should
do if you're sitting next to yourkid and the oxygen mask comes down.
(28:21):
You, you've been on a jet,you've been on a jet liner?
Put yours on first.
Put yours on first.
Why?
Why do you put yours on first?
Why, why do they want you to do that?
Yeah, of course.
You're no good if you're rendereduseless so make sure that
(28:45):
you can survive to carry on.
Worry about yourself, and then others.
And, and its true principle.
Yes.
And so we can ask men to overcome theirreticence about putting themself first
in line in terms of what's needed rightnow to recognize that, you know, if
(29:11):
you're not functioning well, you'reno good to the people you care about.
You gotta take something.
You, you gotta, you gotta havesome resources to be alive.
And you know, with that in mind,
it would be good if men started talkingabout what we need and how we're
(29:40):
really sort of like waiting to inhale.
You know, we need some oxygen.
And, and that oxygen isn'tjust O2, it's not just the gas.
It's appreciation, respect, caring,empathy, all of these things that
(30:01):
sort of used to be much more abundantin the culture than they are now,
especially across gender lines.
So that's how I think we started.
Be patient, it's notgonna happen overnight.
It's gonna take decades.
And to start small, start humble,don't get angry if you can avoid it.
(30:29):
Understand if you feel angry, what doyou really feel before anger jumps in?
What you really might feel is sad,afraid, frustrated, alone, insecure,
and talk about those things.
You know, like you say to your buddies,You know, I, look, I'm really worried
(30:52):
about my kids and my grandkids.
You guys worry about that?
Do you, do you think that we asmen are, are being as helpful in
this society as we, as we'd liketo be and making things better?
You know, um, and I think alot of men would say, Uh, no.
(31:16):
And then, you know, the whole idea ofmen being together is suspect these days.
The Pew Research Center recently dida, released a study that shows that
people are far more suspicious of mengetting together in male only groups
(31:38):
than they are about women gettingtogether in female only groups.
Very much related to that researchis research that shows that with all
of the talk we've had over the pastseveral years about implicit bias,
at least one study found, a peerreviewed, peer reviewed, uh, piece of
(32:02):
research, at least one article foundthat the strongest and deepest implicit
bias is not against blacks, it's notagainst any other ethnic group, it's
not against women, the strongestimplicit bias of all is against men.
(32:29):
It's against men.
And
so, you know, what does, what does thatmean when men want to get together as
men, you know, to go bowling, or tosit and have a few beers, or to, you
know, just to sort of talk about ourgrandkids, or whatever it is, just to
get to know each other and, and bond?
(32:50):
Oh, what are they doing?
What are those men doing?
What are they talking about?
It's the patriarchy, wegotta smash the patriarchy.
They're oppressors.
You know, we, we gotta get over that andsay, No, actually, we went bowling and
we got to know each other a little bit.
And a couple fellows showed mepictures of their grandkids and I
(33:11):
showed 'em pictures of my grandkids.
And it was really fun and Ican't wait to go back next week.
And that's an importantthing too, right there.
Some, some men will feel, um, especiallyin light of research that shows that men,
more than women these days, are sayingthey don't spend enough time with their
(33:34):
kids, some men will feel that when theyhave any spare time, they really should be
with their families and with their kids.
But again, men need a little bitof oxygen from outside the family.
And so taking two or three hoursper week to be with a group of men
(34:03):
is not being selfish to your family.
It's grabbing that oxygen mask,getting what you need so that when
you go home, you're feeling good,strong, kind, loving, patient.
And when I was doing a podcast, I hada guest on, his name was Jim Ellis,
(34:28):
recently deceased, who was an advocate,was a, a, a member, very active
member of a group, I, I don't think Iremember the name exactly, something
about Motivate, inspire and something.
Um, but we talked about this onour podcast, that, what, what,
(34:48):
do women ever say, Why are youspending time with those men?
He said, Ask my wife.
When I come home from a meeting, from myweekly meeting with this group of men,
I am so full of energy, I'm so pumpedup, I'm so happy, I am so alive that she
(35:11):
wants me to never missthat meeting any week.
It's good for the man, it'sgood for the relationship,
it's good for the woman, it's good forthe kids, it's good for the family.
You extend that out, it's good for thecommunity for men to not listen to all
(35:31):
of the male bashings that's, that'sout there in our culture right now.
Who needs men?
It's the end of men.
Men are clueless, men are sex crazed, menjust want to drink beer and watch sports.
Men are, they can't multitask,you know, all of that stuff.
Men are slobs, all of that stuff.
Men are oppressors, men are violent.
(35:54):
You know, if, if, if you, if youare immersed in that thinking
about a group of people, do youwanna go hang out with them?
No.
Why would I want to go hang out with abunch of people who oppress other people?
But that's, that's the brand, that'sthe reputation of men these days.
(36:16):
Now, we, we mentioned the, the women whoare honorable and really care about men.
We gotta recognize thatthere are many women
who are not honorable about men, whoblame all of their unhappiness on men.
(36:37):
Some of which might be well placed,because who knows what happened to
them in, you know, in, when they wereyoung, in their families, at school.
Who knows, who knows what happened.
But there are also many women whosejob, who get paid pretty well by
(37:01):
organizations, nonprofit organizationsfunded by the big philanthropies,
The Ford Foundation, The RockefellerFoundation, by the federal government,
um, professional feminists whose job isto do everything they can to make sure
(37:23):
that the focus stays on women as havingproblems and men as causing problems.
And that is really corrosive,it's really corrosive.
Well, well, you know, Jack, that,that tells me right there, there's
(37:47):
a, a challenge or a war being placedon the natural order of things.
There's always been a natural orderto men and women, and traditionally.
But besides the traditionalroles, it's a natural order that
(38:09):
those roles have been based on.
And there has been this big blunt,blatant attack on that natural order.
And I've, I've kind of witnessed thisfor, you know, my whole life, and, you
(38:30):
know, I'm, I'm about to turn sixty.
So there's, there's this, you know,war that's been brewing and building
over this long period of time,and it's got this pendulum effect.
And as we react and they react, thependulum keeps swinging back and forth.
(38:57):
What I see is it's gonna take thestrength of men in that natural order
to grab the pendulum and stop thependulum from going back and forth,
and that will help restore a balance.
And that bickering back and forththat you were talking about, is a
(39:20):
big, big deal about all of that.
Ed, I understand what you're saying.
I wanna present to you somedifferent thinking about that.
I, I under, I understand whatyou're saying, I respect it.
And, and you are thinking about what dowe need to do to, to stop this craziness.
(39:45):
When you talk about the naturalorder, what I hear, what I think
of, is the primitive order.
The primitive order when we were,when we were a small band of human
beings walking across the grasslandsof the Serengeti in Africa.
(40:08):
Very vulnerable to being madeextinct by having a saber tooth
tiger jump out of the, I don'tknow, the grasses, or the jungle, or
whatever's there, and, and eating us.
Yeah.
Well, the Serengeti's grasslands.
(40:28):
Yeah.
So, um, you know, and when we were,when we were vulnerable, when we were
living very primitively, we had totake every opportunity to eek out
every bit of efficiency we could toensure that we survived until tomorrow.
(40:54):
So what that meant was, and thisis where natural order sort of
plays into what you're saying,
we said, Okay, we have babieshere, these babies are important
for the survival of the species.
The woman has the breasts,
(41:16):
I've got the bigger muscles, I'm theman, I've got the bigger muscles.
So it's not the natural orderyet 'cause we haven't started it.
But the smart thing for us to dois to have you be in charge of the
babies and I'll be in charge ofkeeping the saber tooth tigers at bay.
(41:40):
As we became more and more civilizedand we started having things like
laws and customs, and taboos, andconstables and jails and you know, as
we became more civilized and had morerules about what's gonna be acceptable
(42:05):
among human beings and what's not,
we still kept those primitiveideas of what women needed to
do and what men needed to do.
Now in the forties, and fifties, andsixties, a lot of women didn't need
(42:28):
to always have a baby on their hip.
The kids could have been at school, right?
Um,
so, so
as civilization became more and moredeveloped, it became more and more
possible for us to not have to be sospecialized in the idea that women are
(42:53):
taking care of the kids and the men aretaking care of everything on the outside.
For instance, I mean, would you, would youagree or would you not agree, how do you
feel about women wanting to be doctors?
Is that okay with you or is thata violation of the natural order?
No, that's perfectly fine with me.
(43:15):
Yeah.
Okay.
Now, in the 1890s, I've read thediaries of various pioneering women
who dared to say to their families,especially their fathers, um,
(43:35):
I, I, I'm not, no, I don't wanna, Idon't wanna marry John from the, you
know, mercantile exchange even though youthink I should, I want to be a doctor.
Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
That's, no, no.
(43:56):
Or even worse than adoctor, I wanna be a lawyer.
Oh my God, you want to turn yourback on, on your natural God-given
place in life?
You, a woman who's supposed to be allabout loving and caring, and listening,
(44:18):
and making people happy and feel good,and trying to patch up, uh, disagreements.
You wanna give all that upand become a lawyer and argue
all day and get paid for it?
What kind of a woman are you?
That's, there might besomething wrong with you.
And so the, the pioneeringwomen had to get over that and
(44:42):
they have gotten way over that.
Lots of women are great doctors, lotsof women are great lawyers, lots of
women are great politicians, greatscientists, great business people.
We got over all of those stereotypes.
The problem is, I think that with all ofthat success that women have wrought for
(45:06):
themselves, following Betty Friedan's bookabout how women need to have more options,
men have far, still today have farfewer options to achieve what we
were thinking we might get from thisidea of overcoming sexist stereotypes
(45:31):
and, and rigid gender roles.
Now I know it's true that there aremore and more men who are getting
into the formerly female domain,and we have full-time fathers now.
Full-time fathers who stayhome, take care of the kids.
When I see them at the playground, I askthem, How do you like the fatherhood gig?
(45:55):
And they say two things.
Almost always, they say two things.
They'll say, I love it.
But then they immediatelyfollow with, It's a lot of work.
And then I respond with, Well,well, when you were working, that
was a lot of work too, wasn't it?
And they smile and they laugh andthey say, Yeah, I guess that was too.
(46:18):
So there are people who look atthose guys and sort of treat them the
way, in the late 1800's, we treatedwomen who didn't wanna stay home
and they wanted to become lawyers.
Here's this guy who was a lawyer,hated it, hated it, but really
(46:40):
likes teaching, working with, beinga primary influence on his kids.
And not only that, he's married to thatlawyer, or her great granddaughter,
he's, and they rely on each other.
She can go and do her job, become,work to become a partner in
(47:02):
six years in the big law firm.
But she needs to know that the kidsare safe and the kids are okay.
She doesn't have to always bethinking and worrying about the kids.
Joe's got it.
And I know Joe loves those kids, and Iknow he is a great man and a smart guy,
and I love him and I don't have to worry.
(47:23):
And it works, it works.
Now that's, that's the hundredpercent, a hundred percent proposition.
There's a bazillion differentcombinations you can have of that.
You know, where not every woman who wantsto be a lawyer wants to make partner.
A woman who wants to be a lawyermight wanna just, you know, sort
of, you know, give it 50%, theother 50%, she wants to be the mom.
(47:48):
All kinds of permutations of that.
But the problem is that when we thinkabout work/life balance at the law firm,
we're thinking about policies towardwomen who need to take time off from
work to go and take care of the kids.
We don't think at all about policiesfor the male lawyers who would
(48:13):
love to take some time off so theycan go and take care of the kids.
So really, what is this, thisis all about, this is all about
changing the natural order.
I mean, the natural order is,the essence of the natural order
is that parents love their kids,mothers and fathers love their kids.
(48:38):
And the natural order is thatthey're, that they're human beings
and they're smart, and they can thinkabout what's the best way to do this.
And they can do all kinds of things.
So this, this could be consideredreinventing yourselves.
(48:58):
Women reinvented themselves bysaying, We're not gonna just be
mothers and stay at home all day.
We love that.
But that's, we want, wewant other things too.
We, women reinvented themselvesas astronauts, and soldiers,
and politicians, and doctors,and lawyers, that's wonderful.
(49:19):
We need men to be able to reinventthemselves, and it's perfectly
understandable that we need, thatmen need to reinvent themselves.
Because look at how their traditionalrole has been made pretty much
impossible or very, very difficultthese days with the fact that many
(49:40):
blue collar jobs, many manufacturingjobs, many jobs for which a high school
diploma was a ticket to a good life,
the economy of men's occupations hasreally changed strongly, even drastically.
(50:02):
So let's, let's talk aboutreinvention a little bit.
Back in the beginning daysof IBM, the corporation,
IBM's main business wasto make big computers.
I think they had a nicknamelike Big Metal, or Big Iron,
(50:23):
or something like that.
And they were doing reallywell making physical computers,
you know, as big as a room.
But as computers advanced, and advanced,and advanced, became smaller, and smaller,
and smaller, and more and more companiescame into that space with innovations
(50:45):
about how to make computers better,less expensive, different technologies.
Big Blue, IBM said, Whoa, things havereally changed for us, our business model.
What are we gonna do?
We keep this up, we'regonna be out of business.
(51:06):
What they did was theyreinvented themselves.
A bunch of smartexecutives said, All right.
What are the two main components of the,of, of a computer that's doing good work?
Well, we've been working onone, the iron, the machine, but
it's nothing without software.
It's nothing.
(51:26):
Without networking, we're gonna become,we're gonna reinvent ourselves as a
software and computer services company.
Reinvented themselves, it worked,and they've been thriving.
Similarly, I know it's a big, it's abig jolt to a lot of men's thinking.
(51:49):
Although I think underneaththey might be thinking, Woo, I
would kind of like to try that.
Men reinvent themselves.
Take the, take their, take theiressential components, what are
all the good things about men?
And apply them to running ahouse with a bunch of kids.
(52:12):
Raising the kids, uh, helping thekids learn how to be good people.
I used to work for NationalFatherhood Initiative and at NFI,
we had a word that we made up.
I didn't make it up, it wasthere before I got there.
It was, it's firmth.
The word is firmth.
And, and NFI used to talk aboutit as a characteristic and a
(52:37):
quality that men, especially, wereable to provide for their kids.
Firmth is a combinationof firmness and warmth.
And if you think about, you know,a really, if you think about a
really good dad, the kind of dad wewould all like to have, he's firm
(52:57):
with you but he's warm with you.
And he's not shaming youand he's not out of control.
He's saying, Look, you, you didthis and here's why that's not good.
Here's why you shouldn't do it again.
I asked you not to do it,and so you did it anyhow.
(53:18):
Well, I, you, there's gonna be someconsequences for your disobeying
me and here's the consequences.
But I still love you, and you'restill a great kid, and I'm just
trying to help make you greater,and greater, and greater.
So that when you grow up, youcan make my grandkids as good
as I'm trying to make you,
(53:39):
you know?
And so it's, when, when we think of beinga mother now, we think of everything being
sort of pink and frilly and kind and nice.
And I mean, look, women inventedparticipation trophies, right?
Isn't that the kind of thing women do?
(54:00):
You know, participation trophies didn'tcome from out of a man's imagination.
It wasn't so important thatevery kid feel like a star.
No, you're not a star in soccer,but you know, you're gonna
be a star playing the drums.
I can see it.
What'd we, what do you, how doyou wanna do that, you know?
Um,
(54:21):
being a father, it is a very essentiallymale masculine thing when it's done right.
And there's a lot of joy andopportunity there for men to reinvent
themselves for this new economy.
And again, it doesn't haveto be a hundred percent.
He's taking care of kids.
(54:43):
There's lots of opportunities forside hustles, side gigs for the
man to also be making a littlebit of money, but still being able
to be the primary parent at home.
That's what I think needs to happen.
Not every woman, however this is,this is, this is where it gets, you
know, a little bit less than ideal.
(55:05):
We've talked so far about the woman whois a great lawyer and wants to be the,
wants to be a partner in six years, andthe, the husband who's really digging the
idea of being a nurturing parent at home.
And so she loves that idea of lettinghim have primary, uh, influence at home.
(55:28):
The truth of the matter is that notevery woman has a fabulous career
and not every woman therefore isinterested in sharing or turning over
to a man, her role as the mother.
Many women just havejobs, they just have jobs.
(55:53):
And they're not so thrilled aboutthe idea of having their husband
take half of their job or sharingthe CEO suite in the family.
These women are watching theclock nine to five every day.
They can't wait to get the helloutta there, they wanna get home.
Why do they wanna get home?
Because home is where the heartis, that's where their love is.
(56:16):
And so they're not so interestedin having this guy be there equal.
Even further along this point, thereare many women who don't even have
jobs other than to be a mother.
And you know, those women arereally not interested in letting
(56:38):
the fathers of their kids
share.
Certainly not gonna let 'emhave primary influence over the
kids, but is gonna be very, veryreluctant to even share it 50/50.
I'm the mother, you'll hearthem say, I'm the mother,
(57:00):
where's the money?
Where's the money?
You are a sorry excuse for a man.
Where's the money?
And the guy is thinking, Well,I don't, I don't happen to
be very good at making money.
But these kids and I have greattimes when we're together.
And I'm reading them stories, andplaying games with them, and teaching
(57:22):
them various things, it's working.
So maybe you should get out thereand make some money, you know?
Um, that's, you know, that's my, that'smy view of what would be a lot happier and
healthier, uh, society with men and, menand women both treating each other fairly.
(57:47):
We men have given up the idea that weshould be in total control of the economy.
We need to ask women to get over theidea that they need to be in total
control, top dog, CEO, in the family.
(58:08):
It's gotta be shared, and if it canbe shared, we don't have to worry
about who gets what slice of the pie.
We don't have to worry about that one pie.
If we're treating each other fairly and wehave a good relationship, we have synergy.
It's not just one plus one equals two,it's one plus one equals infinity.
(58:29):
And we don't have to worry about onepie, we can create a whole bakery.
We can make all the pies we wantbecause we're working together.
We love each other, we'recooperating, we're trying to optimize.
The sky's the limit.
You know, we're not lockedinto this one little equation
of one plus one equals two.
(58:51):
So, um, so the way I see it is thatthe rate limiting step right here
is women's willingness to share.
Nobody gives up power for nothing,but smart people will share it.
(59:12):
That's, that's the key right there.
I, I, I really believe that, Jack.
You know, the, the more that wecan transition into a sharing
world, the better for all of us.
You know, the toy box is full of toys.
We can all share the toys.
(59:33):
It's, it's fabulous if we justlet people create their own lives.
And I, I really believe that'swhat the essence of what
you're saying is all about.
You have to let peopledecide what they are.
So,
(59:54):
Yes, that's a, that'sa great way to put it.
I love that idea of the, ofthe toy box full of toys.
Yes.
It's like unlimited potential.
Yeah, Yeah.
It's, it's, that's right.
Life is what you wanna makeit so get out there and build
what you want your world to be.
(01:00:16):
Gandhi, you know, Be the changein the world that you want to see.
And it will happen ifeverybody gets on that page.
Jack, what you're doing is great.
You're out there spreading good word,you know, inspiring deep thought.
That's really what weneed in our world today.
(01:00:37):
I wanna say thank you forsharing that here today.
Could you, one, let people know how toget ahold of you, get involved with you?
And two, do you have a call toaction for our listeners today?
Yes.
It's a pretty small call to action,but I, but it would make a, a,
a world of difference to me andI would really appreciate it.
(01:01:00):
Um, the, the place to, uh, get ahold of meis at my website, malefriendlymedia.com,
that's all one word, no hyphens.
malefriendlymedia.com.
Uh, at malefriendlymedia.com, Ihave a contact, uh, menu item if
(01:01:20):
you want to send me a message.
Um, I also have a follow menu itemin which I ask you to please give
me your email address and I'llkeep you posted of anything that I
write and publish on Substack, orMedium, to big blogging platforms.
Uh, I'll also let you know, um, when I doa podcast appearance and, uh, when that
(01:01:45):
podcast is published and what the link is.
Uh, uh, you know, it, it's beena great conversation and there's
not time enough to get everythinginto a conversation like this.
So Jack, I'm gonna reach out to youhere later on and ask you back so we can
continue with this great conversation.
(01:02:07):
And I wanna say thankyou for being here today.
I wanna thank you for being here today.
You're doing the work, you'redoing the hard work, and thank you.
I, podcasting is a, is a verywonderful feature of, it's, it's a
very wonderful resource for what wehope will be the healing of America.
(01:02:30):
Because it's, we're not, we'renot hiding behind a keyboard.
You are a host, I am a guest, wehave some civility between us.
It's very much different from, verymuch different from lobbing hand
grenades at each other on Twitter.
So I love podcasting and thankyou for making it possible.
(01:02:51):
Well, it, it's great tohave guests like you, Jack.
The traditional media is dyingand this is the new media form, so
people should get serious about it.
So thank you for being here today, Jack.
Thank you, Ed.
Thank you for joining us today.
If you found this podcast enlightening,entertaining, educational in any way,
(01:03:18):
please share, like, subscribe, and joinus right back here next week for another
great episode of the Dead America Podcast.
I'm Ed Watters, your host, enjoyyour afternoon wherever you might be.
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