June 11, 2025 • 40 mins
Join Ed Watters on the Dead America Podcast for a powerful conversation with Massimo Rigotti, an esteemed speaker, addiction recovery advocate, and author. In this episode, Massimo shares his deeply personal journey of overcoming addiction, facing homelessness, and finding success through the transformative Sober Method.
Discover how his five-step method—Stoic, Observe, Behavior, Execute, and Restore—helps individuals break free from addiction and harness their struggles as a superpower for personal growth. Massimo delves into the importance of long-term planning, self-reflection, and breaking destructive habits to create a fulfilling life.
Ed and Massimo also explore the psychological and spiritual aspects of addiction recovery, emphasizing continuous learning, intentional action, and the role of mindfulness in regaining control. Whether you're personally struggling, supporting someone in recovery, or simply interested in the psychology of addiction, this episode delivers actionable insights and inspiration.
Don’t miss this enlightening discussion on reclaiming your life. Subscribe for more compelling episodes on resilience, healing, and transformation.
00:00 Introduction to Long-Term Planning
00:54 Meet Massimo Rigotti: A Journey of Recovery
03:03 The Turning Point: Samantha's Tragic Death
04:50 Challenges and Realizations in Recovery
07:40 The Sober Method: A New Approach
09:47 Stoicism and Self-Reflection
18:17 Planning for Success
23:40 Writing and Refining 'The Sober Method'
34:54 Final Thoughts and Encouragement
38:29 Closing Remarks and Contact Information
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Massimo Rigotti (00:00):
But I try to get people into a five year, which is a big stretch.
A lot of people, which was reallywild to me when I started working with
others in my program, is that theydon't, most people don't look beyond
the end of the month in a lot of cases.
And that might even bea stretch, you know?
Ed Watters (00:54):
Today, we have Massimo Rigotti with us.
He is a speaker, an addiction recoveryadvocate, and he's the author of
Flavors of Confidence, The Sober Method.
Massimo, could you pleaseintroduce yourself?
Let people know just a littlemore about you, please.
Massimo Rigotti (01:19):
Absolutely.
Thanks for having me today, Ed.
Uh, it's always, uh, great to getout in front of people and, and let
them know more about what I'm doing.
So a little quick background on myself.
I was, uh, born in the middle of thecountry in Lincoln, Nebraska and,
and had quite an adventurous lifethat took me throughout this country.
(01:39):
And along the way, I managedto get myself tremendously
addicted to alcohol and cocaine.
Uh, and it eventually took me downwith it in a spectacular crash that
left me homeless for sixteen months,
living on the street.
And going from the pinnacle of success toliving on the street will really wake you
(02:00):
up with where you are and who you are, andit'll also show you what you're made of.
And when I stood up sober, Irecognized that things weren't
exactly how I wanted them to be.
And there had to be morethan just life of sobriety.
What else was out there?
You know, I had to find that next calling.
(02:21):
And instead of looking in the rear viewmirror like so many people do in, in this
circumstance, I decided that I was gonnaput it 100% behind me and look forward.
And I created my own method, whichI called Flavors of Confidence.
Which, uh, is about building up yourselfand reframe your life so that you're
confident in your, in how you existand move within your own daily life.
(02:44):
If you have a, a sense of confidenceand a sense of worth, your life takes
on a whole new meaning and purpose.
And it is transformative in it's waythat it impacts others around you and
your success breeds success around you.
And it's just anuplifting, uh, experience.
Now in, in all of this, I was workingwith someone who I had met randomly
(03:09):
on a beach and uh, we came together.
Her name was Samantha Thomas, and shewas unfortunately tragically murdered
by a drunk driver in August of 2020.
She'd been encouraging me to sharewhat I was doing, but I just kind
of sloughed it off and said, Ah,I'll get around to it someday.
But when that happened, it totallychanged my, my purpose in life.
(03:33):
And I wrote the book and I startadvocating, uh, the sober method and,
and the tools that I had created formyself, I now share with everyone.
So that's a little bit aboutme and, and how I got here
and, and why I do what I do.
Ed Watters (03:48):
I think it's amazing, most of us, it takes tragedy to wake us up.
And it's so alarming when, when youare filled with addictive behaviors,
as any of us, you know, recoveringaddicts know, you have this personality.
(04:13):
Uh, I was there at nine years oldand I, I started walking that.
Yes, it's amazing.
And my uncle got me into Alateen at aboutthirteen years old and it was amazing.
I, I still, you know, went my own way, didmy own thing, it was part of growing up.
(04:42):
But it's alarming how many peopleare addicted to substances.
What, what was the most devastatingpart of your awakening period?
Massimo Rigotti (04:58):
I think the most challenging thing for me to work
through was just the large wakeof destruction I had left behind
me and not realized just how manylives I touched in a negative way.
I, I was, uh, successful.
(05:19):
I, I, I guess a lot of people classifythis as a, a functioning alcoholic.
Uh, so there were many people that maybeknew I drank a little bit, but they
didn't actually recognize or realizethe fact that I was a, a true addict,
uh, not only to alcohol, but to drugs.
And so I masked it pretty well becauseit was succeed at all costs, get
(05:40):
outta my way, I'm gonna destroy you,that was my kind of attitude in life.
And after I was completely humbled bybeginning to forage for food and not have
a roof over my head, I began to look atlife in an entirely different way and
(06:00):
recognize, wow, I did a lot of bad things.
Not really in, in a sense, I didn't reallythink that, that I had really hurt anyone.
I didn't, you know, physicallyharm anyone, but I said a lot of
things and I did a lot of thingsthat I could have done better.
And that was troubling to me.
That, that was the, probably the mosttroubling thing in my overall awakening
(06:22):
was realizing that I had to go backand fix a lot of, you know, put right
what I once put wrong, so to speak.
Ed Watters (06:33):
Yeah.
I, I think a lot of people, it's thatguilt syndrome that we deal with.
And, and fixing that, youknow, that trash in our life,
that's a big part of recovery.
Because even if you're going to AA andyou're trying to do the program, you know,
I witnessed so many alcoholics, and I,I was part of it, you know, we'd go to
(06:58):
a meeting and then, you know, after themeeting, we'd meet at the bar and have a
drink and talk about what we discussed.
You know, so waking up and owningyourself is a big part of this
journey and it's about fixing thatnegative self behavior, really.
(07:23):
Uh, and that's owning up to yourbehaviors, being truthful with yourself,
and not only owning up to it, butwalking the truth into your life.
That's hard to do.
So, so talk about the process with us.
Massimo Rigotti (07:45):
Well, I'm glad that you brought up something that happened
in your AA meetings because it'ssomething that happened in mine as
well and that was troubling for me.
I like, we'd walk out into the parkinglot and then suddenly it's like,
you guys want to go get a drink?
I'm like, Whoa, whoa.
Wait a second, this is completelyagainst what I just sat through.
Um, yeah.
So, uh, you know, the, the, I think partof the problem is that in the traditional,
(08:12):
uh, group setting like this, is thatwe'd look in the rear view mirror.
And, and so we tend to have this, uh,sort of wallowing in the past, you know,
this happened to me, this happened to me.
Well, you start talking about thosethings all the time, and I tell
you what, in AA meetings, I'd startlike, man, that was kind of fun.
I remember when that happened.
Man, you know, and you don't want that.
(08:34):
I mean, so this is, we also have anotherchallenge here, and then I'll answer
your question, is that the challengethat we have is that in this particular
small subset of mental health recovery,we are self-affirming a negative.
We stand up in meetings and we saythat we're an alcoholic, we're, I'm
(08:56):
a drug addict, I'm this, I'm that.
We don't do that in any other areaof mental health, we always talk
about the strength that we are.
I am better than this, I amgreater than this, I am not going
to let this stand in my way.
Why are we doing the opposite in somethingthat is so powerful, like addiction?
So I always encourage, and Idon't even, uh, answer a question
(09:18):
like, Are you an alcoholic?
I say, No.
Because I'm not.
I haven't had a drink in nine years.
So I, I don't see myself as that, I seemyself as something greater than that.
And that is, that's ultimatelywhat the sober method teaches.
So the step one of sober method,and sober stands for Stoic, Observe,
Behavior, Execute, and Restore,
(09:39):
and it is a continuous improvementplan that works on your life
and your mind in a holistic way.
So the, the beginning step is stoicism,so we're talking about taking a
deep, reflective look at yourself.
And in, in doing that, you're forced tolook at some of the hard truths about
(10:00):
yourself to, to understand why you'redoing the things that you're doing
and what is truly important to you.
And, and, and so the, theprocess starts off by, you know,
looking at one fundamental thing.
I always recommend, uh, meditationsby Marcus Aurelius is a good starting
point, mainly because the barrierof entry of getting a copy is $0.
(10:23):
So, you know, I don't have anyone saying,Well, how much is that gonna cost me,
you know?
I mean, like, if you really want,you could just Google Marcus Aurelius
quotes and that'd be a good startfor you on the internet, right?
Uh, and, and so Marcus Aureliusis a really interesting character
when you think about it.
Here's, is literally the mostpowerful man on earth 2000 years
ago, looking at himself in his ownjournal in a very personal way and
(10:48):
realizing his own shortcomings.
And most people in that, with thatamount of power would never think,
I am not good enough to do this.
I, I, I'm struggling with this.
Most instead say, I'm the greatest personalive, you know, nobody is better than me.
And so that's very telling.
And if, if he could do that,then we all can do that.
(11:09):
Because certainly most of us are notthe most powerful person alive, right?
So as, as you look and reflect on aspecific item, uh, that, that Marcus
Aurelius's like pointed out in hisown life, like thinking that, uh, you
know, the, something is beneath you.
And you might look at your own life,it's like, did I ever think that
(11:31):
something was beneath my station?
Okay, I can think of three or four things.
Why did I think that?
And then dig into your own mind, whatcreated that belief in your mind?
Oh, well this happened to me when Iwas four and my dad did this to me.
So then I thought from that pointforward that this was the right thing.
And you recognize, Oh, wait a second,that's connected to this other thought
(11:53):
that then later I did this, which caused
me to start treatingmy friends in this way.
And then I realized that I was hurtingthem and then I started drinking
because I was, I felt bad about that.
Oh, wow.
I just discovered why I started,I like, I have a trigger.
I just discovered a trigger just bygoing down this road of self-reflection.
(12:16):
Um, and it's very powerfulbecause we're, we're layered.
We are so layered and, and we forget thateverything that we do from the time that
we're very small is a, is, is just layingdown a framework that we operate within.
Because we're all, uh, you know, lotsof people say, Oh, humans are lazy.
(12:36):
I don't necessarily like calling us lazy,I see humans as optimized for the least
amount of power, you know, consumption.
We want to do, we, we, it's notthat we're really lazy, we wanna
have a reserve power source, right?
So your brain just goes, ah,I don't need to work on this.
We, this worked lasttime, just do it again.
(12:58):
And that is, and so when you frame upsomething that is negative and you lay
down, uh, these things on top of eachother, years after years, after years,
that's why it becomes so difficult to, totear the house down and rebuild yourself.
Um, that's what thisallows you to do though.
Because then you look at that one, and I'mtalking, that's just like one minor little
(13:19):
thing that I pointed out right there.
Okay, so now I move forward and howdoes that impact me in my daily life?
That's the observed step.
So it's like, Well, okay, thatimpacts me in these different ways.
What would happen if I would changethat behavior just a little bit.
And this is like kind ofplaying it out in your mind.
Like if, and, and testing it and,and what that might look like.
(13:41):
Then you actually, you know, remapthat behavior in the behavior
step and, and, and play it out.
Maybe role play it, if you,if you have that ability.
And then you go and youtest, that's execute.
So, okay, we're gonna dothis differently this time.
And when you have that, uh, abilityto test and say, Oh, that worked.
Oh my goodness.
Not only was I able to figure outsomething that had troubled me
(14:03):
my entire life, I also have now
changed my behavior and Igot a different outcome.
Wow.
You know, and so you have this positiveaffirmation that what you discovered
about yourself and changed aboutyourself in near real time is going to
have a positive impact on your life.
And then you, if, if, if it doesn'twork though, then you go back to the
(14:26):
observe step and go like, Okay, well,that kind of worked, but it didn't work.
And so you kinda like, you know,fiddle around in the kitchen
and make a better omelet.
And then you come out eventuallyin the restoration step where you,
you reflect back and you think, Whodid, who did I negatively impact
with this behavior in my life?
And this is your typical, in a 12 stepprogram, where you'd be like, going back
(14:48):
and, and looking and, and getting theforgiveness and, and so on and so forth.
And this is making amends basically.
And then you start over.
Go back to stoicism, look forsomething else about yourself, reflect,
and, and it's, it's really wild.
Uh, I'm on my hundred and twenty-ninethpass at this exact moment through my own
system, and it's, it's, it's really great.
(15:09):
Because each time I go back to thebeginning, it's like, I feel like
I'm getting into smaller and smallerperfection, improvement of myself.
Uh, I don't even really recognizethe person I was a decade ago now.
It, it, it, in reading what Iwrote in my journals a decade ago,
I'm like, Who was this person?
(15:29):
Um, it's really wild and it's really cool.
Ed Watters (15:33):
Yeah.
You know, it's very interesting becausethat same type of system is true recovery
process from all of those mental andphysical barriers that we all face.
So, you know, I'm in myfifty-nineth year of life.
(15:53):
I'm looking at that big six Omark now, and I'm really saying to
myself, You're just now startingto feel what life is about.
Because of the process that you justoutlined for us, you know, you've
(16:13):
got to go back and seek each ofthose disgusting moments in your
life and discover what made you dothat and how did you get through it.
You know, it, it's a miraclethat we get through some of
the things that we go through.
I've found myself, you know, as ateenager waking up in people's closets.
(16:40):
I, I went to parties anddon't even know where I am.
And here I am, middle of the night,waking up from passing out in
these people's bathroom closet.
And how do I get outta here?
And, you know, those odd feelingsthat we put ourselves through
(17:03):
is part of Learned behavior.
And this subconscious mind that we talkabout, we really have to dig in, like you
just explained, to figure out all of that,why we do the dirty things that we do.
And then, that's part of the reflection.
(17:23):
But you, you tout that youalways wanna look forward.
And part of looking forward ismaking a proper plan so we don't
have this piss poor performance.
The seven P principle, my cousin calls it.
He told me proper prior planningprevents piss poor performance.
(17:48):
And I really look at that now and Isay, Wow, that's part of life I never
really experienced, proper planning.
And, and it's true.
If we plan properly and we forgetabout all of the things that
(18:09):
we want and focus on our actualneeds, our life goes a lot better.
What is your take on that Massimo?
Massimo Rigotti (18:20):
I, I love it.
And, and one of the things that isactually in the execute step of, uh, the
sober method is looking ahead and creatinga plan that you're actually following.
And, uh, and I, I personally do itjust a little bit differently because
I tend to be a very long-term thinker.
(18:40):
Um, so I have like twenty year goals set.
But I try to get people into afive year, which is a big stretch.
A lot of people, which was reallywild to me when I started working with
others in my program, is that theydon't, most people don't look beyond
the end of the month in a lot of cases.
(19:02):
And that might even bea stretch, you know?
They're like, Oh, well, I don't evenknow what I'm gonna do on Friday.
I'm like, it's Wednesday, you know?
So it, it, that was a, thatwas an awakening for me.
So it, I, I encourage people tolook initially two years out.
Where do you want to be in two years?
Okay, now let's divide that out.
(19:23):
Think about that in sections.
In order to get to that goal, what,what would be a logical, I have to
be here at the end of this year?
And then you're like, Okay,that's your one year goal.
Okay, how would I get there?
I gotta divide that in half and Ilike do this whole divide in half
thing until you're down to, this iswhat you have to get done this week.
Oh, okay.
(19:44):
And, and then you frame up your life intoa big, long series of small, measurable
steps that are going to get you there.
It's kind of like looking at, uh,a, a 1% improvement plan, except
you're doing it with your own life.
You're like, Okay, I have totake these steps this week.
If I complete those, thenI'm gonna stay on goal.
(20:06):
The other thing that is really challengingwith those that come, I, I think for
most anybody, but especially thosewith addiction and in recovery, is
giving yourself a little bit of grace.
You may not make every goal thatyou, you know, set out to have
done by the end of the month.
Well, that's okay.
It's a little bit of a setback.
How are you gonna coursecorrect and, and adjust?
(20:28):
You can still make the six monthmark and, and understanding that
things happen and be okay with that.
Uh, I, I think oftentimes those ofus that have gone through addiction
recovery is that we get, we get reallydown on ourselves if any little thing,
just like it can just like knock thehouse of cards out from under us and,
(20:48):
and then suddenly we're not able to.
And, and that is somethingthat is, really comes from the
strength within the sober method.
And that's why I really like it becauseyou're focusing so deep within yourself
and really reframing your mind.
That as your mind strengthens up, yourealize that the little, these, these,
(21:09):
these things that used to be huge, thatwould be, completely ruin your day.
I mean, I mean, they seem so minutebecause what you, if you were on path
and you're on target, and you have goodplanning, you know what your goal is,
then all the little things around youthat used to seem huge, are nothing.
(21:29):
They just fall away becauseyou stay focused on that goal.
And if you're, if you're workingtowards that, it makes, it makes
life in general much more easy.
I think that we spend so much ofour time, uh, kind of going in
thirty different directions and, andwondering why we don't get anywhere.
Ed Watters (21:50):
Yeah.
Well, you know, I tell mywife, When I die, put don't
worry about it on my headstone.
And I really think when you figure thatout, all of that garbage goes away.
And you know, it goes intothat, Keep it simple, stupid.
And one, one day at atime, one step at a time.
(22:13):
And, and that is the keyto a healthy lifestyle.
And it's hard for addicts to put thatmindset into place, it, it takes years.
I've, I've, I've watched thousandsof addicts and, you know, drunks
just become nothing and die becauseof cirrhosis of the liver and all of
(22:40):
that because they don't wanna stepinto that hard place of that shame and
guilt of what we've done in the past.
And it, it's really, it, it reallykeeps my mind focused more on what
I'm doing here today with you, youknow, bettering myself and letting
(23:03):
people know that's watching orlistening to us today, It's okay.
You know, just keep it simple.
And, and we're all in thistogether, whether we like it or not.
So it, it's kinda like the Lord'sPrayer, you know, you can only do
(23:24):
so much and, you know, focus on whatyou can do and let the other go.
It, it's really part of a good,balanced approach to life.
Talk to us about your book and tell peoplehow they can get the book when it's done.
(23:49):
Uh, it, it's, it's aprocess to write a book.
What got you into the mindset of,Hey, I need to put this into a book
and this is how I'm going to do it.
Massimo Rigotti (24:02):
You aren't lying.
I think that, uh, I think writingthat, my first book was the hardest
thing I've ever done in my life.
I, it, it is tough, it is very tough.
So my first book, uh, is, is Flavors ofConfidence and Reflection For Those in
Need, and that book, uh, is my life story.
(24:23):
It is a reflection on my life, howI began, and, and, and my trials,
tribulations, my wild ride to success, myhard, uh, you know, fall to homelessness,
and, and then the dramatic rise back to,honestly, being in better shape in all
(24:45):
aspects of my life than I ever was before.
And that's an amazing thing right there.
Um, that was, that was tough.
And the reason that it was reallytough to write this, well, one, um,
the motivation to begin writing thiswas the, the tragic murder of someone
who was, you know, my rock and,and, and the closest person to me.
(25:06):
And so losing Samantha, you know,being the catalyst for writing this
book, made it so, um, it made itmuch more emotional than it probably
would've been, uh, otherwise.
Yet the exercise was tremendouslycathartic because I'd always
been a very private person.
I didn't really want people to knowthe inner workings of what was going
(25:28):
on inside my head and how, how I hadachieved things that I had achieved.
Um, I didn't really feel likeit was anyone's business.
It's just that's my private life andyou, you don't need to know anything.
So this was tough.
I had to open myself up in ways that I waseven brought up to like, you don't tell
people things about yourself, you know?
I, I don't know what type of familyyou were, but maybe it's also
(25:50):
generational, but I, that's the,that's the generation that I was in.
It was like, yeah, you just don't do that.
Um, and I'm, I'm ten yearsbehind you, so I'm forty-nine
up for the big five O this year.
So it's, uh, it, it's, it's, uh, it'sa milestone birthday is ahead of me.
Yeah, exactly.
Um, And, and, and so at the end ofthis book, I wrap it up with, with
(26:14):
what I was doing at the time, andthis was like a ten step, uh, method.
And it was just what I had beensharing with people that I saw
at AA and it wasn't very refined.
It was what I was doing personally.
Um, yet releasing the book almostimmediately showed me, and the book
came out two years ago, March of 23, andalmost immediately I was getting feedback.
(26:39):
And as I started working with people thatwere trying to use it, that it was clunky.
What step am I on?
What am I supposed to do after this?
Um, you know, it just, it just didn'treally work well in a larger scenario.
And so I went back to the drawingboard and I thought, Okay, how
can I make this easier and, andmaybe meld it into something?
(27:02):
And I was like, and what would I call it?
I mean, I can't, I mean,Flavors of Confidence is kind
of clunky, you know, as well.
So I thought, Maybe it's a sober method.
I'm like, Well, surelythat's taken by somebody.
There's no way that thatcan be available in 2023.
But sure enough, it was, So I,I latched onto it right away.
Yeah, I mean, so whatdo you use to get sober?
(27:25):
The sober Method.
I mean, it totally makes sense, right?
Uh,
uh, and so what I did then isI took my original ten steps
and I like rolled in a couple
steps into one.
Some, you know, like one of thesteps, the behavior step, was
always just the behavior step.
It used to be step six, andnow it's like step three.
(27:45):
So, um, but it, it made it much easier.
And then I went back to the drawingboard and it, it wasn't that much longer.
So in October, end of October of 23,I came out with The Sober Method book.
And that's when I really began workingspecifically to help others understand
that there are alternatives to AA.
(28:06):
Um, and, and I think thatthat is so important.
Not everything works for everyone.
And when you, when you have, youknow, you're being told that,
Oh, this is the best thing, okay?
And it's the most accepted thing.
So everybody goes to NA or AAbelieving this is the path.
And if it doesn't work, we'relike, Well, I tried everything.
(28:29):
Eh, that makes it so, I, I justso dislike when I hear that.
And that's why I also encourage otherways to get sober that aren't my own
method, because I recognize that, Hey,this might not be the best for you.
But the most important thing to meis that you find yourself and your
sobriety because you're gonna be thebest possible person when you do, so.
Ed Watters (28:56):
Yeah.
Yeah, I like that a lot.
Uh, when, when we discover ourselves,we're just this infinitely stronger
person and, and we can devourthe world and move mountains in
ways we never thought possible.
And I'm still learning new things,new ways to evolve into something
(29:22):
better than what I am now.
And that's really what it'sabout, is evolving and keep
that evolution happening.
We're we're this creature of habit,but we need to be forever learners.
And, and really that means read abook and, you know, get off of, you
(29:46):
know, I love YouTube and it's veryinformative, but, and I hate reading
books, but we specifically set a timethat is intentional for reading now.
And it is increasingly making me abetter person because I understand
(30:06):
the world around me better.
And I, I really wanna encouragethe watchers and the listeners
today to, you know, read a book.
Start with The Sober Method becauseyou're obviously here because you
wanna hear something about recovery.
And I, I think that's very important.
(30:28):
We, we find ourselves in that groupmentality when we go to AA meetings,
like I said before, in the parkinglot, we're going to the bar next.
And, and when we put ourselves in anenvironment of woes me, I'm a drunk,
(30:51):
and yeah, it, it can be very depressive.
And in the wrong mindset,you're gonna just stay right
there in that constant loop.
And that's what we're tryingto break is that loop, that
cycle, that addictive behavior.
So, yeah, I, I really encourage people,read a book and find as many methods,
(31:17):
whatever works for you is the best way.
Massimo Rigotti (31:22):
Yeah.
And I, I tell you, I love what yousaid just now about being a lifelong
learner, that nothing will keepyou more youthful than curiosity.
And when, when you don't know somethingor you see something that's even
remotely interesting to you, ask.
You know, the most amazing thingsand, and experiences in my life have
(31:44):
been when I saw or noticed somebodydoing something and I walked up to
them and was like, that's really cool.
How does this work?
And anybody who's doing theirjob, oh, they love that.
They would, they lovetelling you what they do.
Uh, mainly because, and I jokingly saythis often, mainly because when they
go home at night, the last thing theirwife wants to hear is how work went.
(32:06):
So they're more than happy to tell youabout whatever they're doing, right?
Uh,
so I mean, like take advantageof that because then it
might spark something else.
You're like, you know, in thatexplanation you might learn something
about something else and you're like,Ooh, I wonder how that came to be.
(32:27):
And then you can go downand search that out.
And there's so, you know,there's an infinite amount of
things that you don't know.
And I am in a constant questto learn what I don't know.
And I can spend the rest of mylife and I won't even get close to
understanding most everything, you know?
(32:49):
And so that is, yes,yes, that's totally okay.
The other thing that this does for you,especially if you're struggling with
addiction, it gives you a new addiction.
You can be addicted to learning.
I mean,
Ed Watters (33:07):
Yeah, that's right.
That, that's so true.
You know, shift the behavior.
Massimo Rigotti (33:15):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
I don't think that we ever truly losethat portion of who we are as addicts.
I don't think it ever truly goes away.
We channel it in different ways,uh, in order to take care of that
need within our, our own mind.
Those that are, that have addictionand struggle with addiction, there
(33:38):
are underlying things going on in yourhead that are never going to change.
But you learn to reroutethese into productive things.
One might argue that I'm addicted togoing through The Sober Method time
after time, or that I'm addicted tolearning, or that I, you know, like
those are all aspects of utilizingwhat I really believe is a superpower.
(34:03):
You, if you look at your addictivenature as something that you can
harness as, think of the drivethat you might undertake in order
to remain addicted to something.
I think about all the crazy things that Idid in order to just get that next drink.
You know, like, oh, I know how Ican make some money really fast.
(34:24):
I mean, like, that's creativity.
I mean, like, so if, if you canchannel those things into something
productive, imagine what you can do.
It's, it's endless.
It's great.
Ed Watters (34:37):
That's right.
I, I, I'm with you ahundred percent on that.
So, uh, Massimo, is there anythingthat we've missed that you wanna
add to our conversation today?
Massimo Rigotti (34:54):
I, you know, I just would really like to add that there's
no reason to be discouraged with, withwhere you are in your process of recovery.
That if you're taking the smalleststep to recognize the, that you
need to do something and you falldown fifty times trying to stand
up sober, that's totally okay.
(35:16):
I, I, I did the same thing.
I went through threereally bad, I'm, I got it.
I got it.
I'm standing up and then completelyfell down and destroyed what
I had, I had, I had rebuilt injust a short number of weeks.
It's okay, because I'm okay now.
(35:37):
And the fact that you continue thedrive, that's the most important thing.
Take those small measurable stepsto, to bettering yourself until one
day you're on the other side of it.
And you'll begin to wonder how wasI ever allowing this in my life?
How was I ever allowingmyself to not see clearly?
(35:59):
And see the world in a way that is so muchmore, um, so much more beautiful and so
much more rewarding to, to, uh, experiencelife without it clouded by substances.
It really is.
I, I, I, I don't know that youever really truly recognize that
(36:19):
until you get several years sober.
And then you start seeing things thatyou, you've realized, like you experienced
something that you did when you hadbeen, uh, drunk or high, and you're
like, Wow, this would've been amazing.
And, and, and it really is so coolbecause it affirms that, you know
what the work, the hard work thatI've been doing, It's worth it.
(36:40):
And that's your reward.
And don't give up on yourself.
Every, anything that, that you believeis possible in life is possible
with enough hard work and effort.
And it doesn't have to be like fullout, it just needs to be a tiny
bit of effort every single day.
Because consistency will beat thehardest worker every day, that's why
(37:03):
The Tortoise and The Hare story exists.
We always think about that as beinglike some sort of speed story,
running fast, and it doesn't reallyhave anything to do with that.
If you really break it down,
the tortoise and hare story is just aboutgetting up and doing the bare minimum
every day without ever not doing it asopposed to the hare where, like running
really fast and then like, you know,having fun for five, six days and then
(37:25):
the hare, you know, falls behind again.
And you don't wanna be thehare, you wanna be the tortoise.
It just like slowly moves and slowlygets better until one day you look
back and like, Wow, I beat this.
I won the race.
Ed Watters (37:38):
Yeah, I like that a lot.
You know, and a lot of ithas to do with that mindset.
Where are you in your life?
Who are you around?
And there's this thing calledthe crab in the bucket syndrome.
Are you around people thatwant you where they are?
(37:59):
Take a, take a shot right now in your lifeand figure out, Am I doing this for me or
because I have to be here because of them?
You know, we're all stuck in thebucket, and it is okay to get out.
(38:19):
Uh, I've had a great time speaking withyou today, and I would really like to
do this again with you at some point.
Could you let people know how toget ahold of you and work with you?
Massimo Rigotti (38:35):
Absolutely.
So anyone that is interested in whatI do, uh, check out sobermethod.com
or @sobermethod on all of thesocials, I post daily content.
If you go to sobermethod.com, you canconnect with me, also my own website,
massimorigotti.com, uh, as well.
If you're interested in any privatecoaching, uh, which I happily do
(38:59):
and enjoy, that's probably the mostrewarding thing that I do at the moment.
So, um, thank you Ed,so much for your time.
I really enjoyed it.
And I would love to, uh, do a deeperdive into, uh, some subsections
of what we talked about today.
It's been a real pleasure,uh, speaking with you.
Thank you so much for allowing meto come on your, uh, your podcast
(39:19):
and, and speak to your listeners.
Ed Watters (39:23):
Massimo, it's been a great, fantastic journey with you today.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for joining us today.
If you found this podcast enlightening,entertaining, educational in any way,
please share, like, subscribe, and joinus right back here next week for another
(39:48):
great episode of the Dead America Podcast.
I'm Ed Watters, your host, enjoyyour afternoon wherever you might be.
But I try to get people into a five year, which is a big stretch.
A lot of people, which was reallywild to me when I started working with
others in my program, is that theydon't, most people don't look beyond
the end of the month in a lot of cases.
And that might even bea stretch, you know?
Ed Watters (00:54):
Today, we have Massimo Rigotti with us.
He is a speaker, an addiction recoveryadvocate, and he's the author of
Flavors of Confidence, The Sober Method.
Massimo, could you pleaseintroduce yourself?
Let people know just a littlemore about you, please.
Massimo Rigotti (01:19):
Absolutely.
Thanks for having me today, Ed.
Uh, it's always, uh, great to getout in front of people and, and let
them know more about what I'm doing.
So a little quick background on myself.
I was, uh, born in the middle of thecountry in Lincoln, Nebraska and,
and had quite an adventurous lifethat took me throughout this country.
(01:39):
And along the way, I managedto get myself tremendously
addicted to alcohol and cocaine.
Uh, and it eventually took me downwith it in a spectacular crash that
left me homeless for sixteen months,
living on the street.
And going from the pinnacle of success toliving on the street will really wake you
(02:00):
up with where you are and who you are, andit'll also show you what you're made of.
And when I stood up sober, Irecognized that things weren't
exactly how I wanted them to be.
And there had to be morethan just life of sobriety.
What else was out there?
You know, I had to find that next calling.
(02:21):
And instead of looking in the rear viewmirror like so many people do in, in this
circumstance, I decided that I was gonnaput it 100% behind me and look forward.
And I created my own method, whichI called Flavors of Confidence.
Which, uh, is about building up yourselfand reframe your life so that you're
confident in your, in how you existand move within your own daily life.
(02:44):
If you have a, a sense of confidenceand a sense of worth, your life takes
on a whole new meaning and purpose.
And it is transformative in it's waythat it impacts others around you and
your success breeds success around you.
And it's just anuplifting, uh, experience.
Now in, in all of this, I was workingwith someone who I had met randomly
(03:09):
on a beach and uh, we came together.
Her name was Samantha Thomas, and shewas unfortunately tragically murdered
by a drunk driver in August of 2020.
She'd been encouraging me to sharewhat I was doing, but I just kind
of sloughed it off and said, Ah,I'll get around to it someday.
But when that happened, it totallychanged my, my purpose in life.
(03:33):
And I wrote the book and I startadvocating, uh, the sober method and,
and the tools that I had created formyself, I now share with everyone.
So that's a little bit aboutme and, and how I got here
and, and why I do what I do.
Ed Watters (03:48):
I think it's amazing, most of us, it takes tragedy to wake us up.
And it's so alarming when, when youare filled with addictive behaviors,
as any of us, you know, recoveringaddicts know, you have this personality.
(04:13):
Uh, I was there at nine years oldand I, I started walking that.
Yes, it's amazing.
And my uncle got me into Alateen at aboutthirteen years old and it was amazing.
I, I still, you know, went my own way, didmy own thing, it was part of growing up.
(04:42):
But it's alarming how many peopleare addicted to substances.
What, what was the most devastatingpart of your awakening period?
Massimo Rigotti (04:58):
I think the most challenging thing for me to work
through was just the large wakeof destruction I had left behind
me and not realized just how manylives I touched in a negative way.
I, I was, uh, successful.
(05:19):
I, I, I guess a lot of people classifythis as a, a functioning alcoholic.
Uh, so there were many people that maybeknew I drank a little bit, but they
didn't actually recognize or realizethe fact that I was a, a true addict,
uh, not only to alcohol, but to drugs.
And so I masked it pretty well becauseit was succeed at all costs, get
(05:40):
outta my way, I'm gonna destroy you,that was my kind of attitude in life.
And after I was completely humbled bybeginning to forage for food and not have
a roof over my head, I began to look atlife in an entirely different way and
(06:00):
recognize, wow, I did a lot of bad things.
Not really in, in a sense, I didn't reallythink that, that I had really hurt anyone.
I didn't, you know, physicallyharm anyone, but I said a lot of
things and I did a lot of thingsthat I could have done better.
And that was troubling to me.
That, that was the, probably the mosttroubling thing in my overall awakening
(06:22):
was realizing that I had to go backand fix a lot of, you know, put right
what I once put wrong, so to speak.
Ed Watters (06:33):
Yeah.
I, I think a lot of people, it's thatguilt syndrome that we deal with.
And, and fixing that, youknow, that trash in our life,
that's a big part of recovery.
Because even if you're going to AA andyou're trying to do the program, you know,
I witnessed so many alcoholics, and I,I was part of it, you know, we'd go to
(06:58):
a meeting and then, you know, after themeeting, we'd meet at the bar and have a
drink and talk about what we discussed.
You know, so waking up and owningyourself is a big part of this
journey and it's about fixing thatnegative self behavior, really.
(07:23):
Uh, and that's owning up to yourbehaviors, being truthful with yourself,
and not only owning up to it, butwalking the truth into your life.
That's hard to do.
So, so talk about the process with us.
Massimo Rigotti (07:45):
Well, I'm glad that you brought up something that happened
in your AA meetings because it'ssomething that happened in mine as
well and that was troubling for me.
I like, we'd walk out into the parkinglot and then suddenly it's like,
you guys want to go get a drink?
I'm like, Whoa, whoa.
Wait a second, this is completelyagainst what I just sat through.
Um, yeah.
So, uh, you know, the, the, I think partof the problem is that in the traditional,
(08:12):
uh, group setting like this, is thatwe'd look in the rear view mirror.
And, and so we tend to have this, uh,sort of wallowing in the past, you know,
this happened to me, this happened to me.
Well, you start talking about thosethings all the time, and I tell
you what, in AA meetings, I'd startlike, man, that was kind of fun.
I remember when that happened.
Man, you know, and you don't want that.
(08:34):
I mean, so this is, we also have anotherchallenge here, and then I'll answer
your question, is that the challengethat we have is that in this particular
small subset of mental health recovery,we are self-affirming a negative.
We stand up in meetings and we saythat we're an alcoholic, we're, I'm
(08:56):
a drug addict, I'm this, I'm that.
We don't do that in any other areaof mental health, we always talk
about the strength that we are.
I am better than this, I amgreater than this, I am not going
to let this stand in my way.
Why are we doing the opposite in somethingthat is so powerful, like addiction?
So I always encourage, and Idon't even, uh, answer a question
(09:18):
like, Are you an alcoholic?
I say, No.
Because I'm not.
I haven't had a drink in nine years.
So I, I don't see myself as that, I seemyself as something greater than that.
And that is, that's ultimatelywhat the sober method teaches.
So the step one of sober method,and sober stands for Stoic, Observe,
Behavior, Execute, and Restore,
(09:39):
and it is a continuous improvementplan that works on your life
and your mind in a holistic way.
So the, the beginning step is stoicism,so we're talking about taking a
deep, reflective look at yourself.
And in, in doing that, you're forced tolook at some of the hard truths about
(10:00):
yourself to, to understand why you'redoing the things that you're doing
and what is truly important to you.
And, and, and so the, theprocess starts off by, you know,
looking at one fundamental thing.
I always recommend, uh, meditationsby Marcus Aurelius is a good starting
point, mainly because the barrierof entry of getting a copy is $0.
(10:23):
So, you know, I don't have anyone saying,Well, how much is that gonna cost me,
you know?
I mean, like, if you really want,you could just Google Marcus Aurelius
quotes and that'd be a good startfor you on the internet, right?
Uh, and, and so Marcus Aureliusis a really interesting character
when you think about it.
Here's, is literally the mostpowerful man on earth 2000 years
ago, looking at himself in his ownjournal in a very personal way and
(10:48):
realizing his own shortcomings.
And most people in that, with thatamount of power would never think,
I am not good enough to do this.
I, I, I'm struggling with this.
Most instead say, I'm the greatest personalive, you know, nobody is better than me.
And so that's very telling.
And if, if he could do that,then we all can do that.
(11:09):
Because certainly most of us are notthe most powerful person alive, right?
So as, as you look and reflect on aspecific item, uh, that, that Marcus
Aurelius's like pointed out in hisown life, like thinking that, uh, you
know, the, something is beneath you.
And you might look at your own life,it's like, did I ever think that
(11:31):
something was beneath my station?
Okay, I can think of three or four things.
Why did I think that?
And then dig into your own mind, whatcreated that belief in your mind?
Oh, well this happened to me when Iwas four and my dad did this to me.
So then I thought from that pointforward that this was the right thing.
And you recognize, Oh, wait a second,that's connected to this other thought
(11:53):
that then later I did this, which caused
me to start treatingmy friends in this way.
And then I realized that I was hurtingthem and then I started drinking
because I was, I felt bad about that.
Oh, wow.
I just discovered why I started,I like, I have a trigger.
I just discovered a trigger just bygoing down this road of self-reflection.
(12:16):
Um, and it's very powerfulbecause we're, we're layered.
We are so layered and, and we forget thateverything that we do from the time that
we're very small is a, is, is just layingdown a framework that we operate within.
Because we're all, uh, you know, lotsof people say, Oh, humans are lazy.
(12:36):
I don't necessarily like calling us lazy,I see humans as optimized for the least
amount of power, you know, consumption.
We want to do, we, we, it's notthat we're really lazy, we wanna
have a reserve power source, right?
So your brain just goes, ah,I don't need to work on this.
We, this worked lasttime, just do it again.
(12:58):
And that is, and so when you frame upsomething that is negative and you lay
down, uh, these things on top of eachother, years after years, after years,
that's why it becomes so difficult to, totear the house down and rebuild yourself.
Um, that's what thisallows you to do though.
Because then you look at that one, and I'mtalking, that's just like one minor little
(13:19):
thing that I pointed out right there.
Okay, so now I move forward and howdoes that impact me in my daily life?
That's the observed step.
So it's like, Well, okay, thatimpacts me in these different ways.
What would happen if I would changethat behavior just a little bit.
And this is like kind ofplaying it out in your mind.
Like if, and, and testing it and,and what that might look like.
(13:41):
Then you actually, you know, remapthat behavior in the behavior
step and, and, and play it out.
Maybe role play it, if you,if you have that ability.
And then you go and youtest, that's execute.
So, okay, we're gonna dothis differently this time.
And when you have that, uh, abilityto test and say, Oh, that worked.
Oh my goodness.
Not only was I able to figure outsomething that had troubled me
(14:03):
my entire life, I also have now
changed my behavior and Igot a different outcome.
Wow.
You know, and so you have this positiveaffirmation that what you discovered
about yourself and changed aboutyourself in near real time is going to
have a positive impact on your life.
And then you, if, if, if it doesn'twork though, then you go back to the
(14:26):
observe step and go like, Okay, well,that kind of worked, but it didn't work.
And so you kinda like, you know,fiddle around in the kitchen
and make a better omelet.
And then you come out eventuallyin the restoration step where you,
you reflect back and you think, Whodid, who did I negatively impact
with this behavior in my life?
And this is your typical, in a 12 stepprogram, where you'd be like, going back
(14:48):
and, and looking and, and getting theforgiveness and, and so on and so forth.
And this is making amends basically.
And then you start over.
Go back to stoicism, look forsomething else about yourself, reflect,
and, and it's, it's really wild.
Uh, I'm on my hundred and twenty-ninethpass at this exact moment through my own
system, and it's, it's, it's really great.
(15:09):
Because each time I go back to thebeginning, it's like, I feel like
I'm getting into smaller and smallerperfection, improvement of myself.
Uh, I don't even really recognizethe person I was a decade ago now.
It, it, it, in reading what Iwrote in my journals a decade ago,
I'm like, Who was this person?
(15:29):
Um, it's really wild and it's really cool.
Ed Watters (15:33):
Yeah.
You know, it's very interesting becausethat same type of system is true recovery
process from all of those mental andphysical barriers that we all face.
So, you know, I'm in myfifty-nineth year of life.
(15:53):
I'm looking at that big six Omark now, and I'm really saying to
myself, You're just now startingto feel what life is about.
Because of the process that you justoutlined for us, you know, you've
(16:13):
got to go back and seek each ofthose disgusting moments in your
life and discover what made you dothat and how did you get through it.
You know, it, it's a miraclethat we get through some of
the things that we go through.
I've found myself, you know, as ateenager waking up in people's closets.
(16:40):
I, I went to parties anddon't even know where I am.
And here I am, middle of the night,waking up from passing out in
these people's bathroom closet.
And how do I get outta here?
And, you know, those odd feelingsthat we put ourselves through
(17:03):
is part of Learned behavior.
And this subconscious mind that we talkabout, we really have to dig in, like you
just explained, to figure out all of that,why we do the dirty things that we do.
And then, that's part of the reflection.
(17:23):
But you, you tout that youalways wanna look forward.
And part of looking forward ismaking a proper plan so we don't
have this piss poor performance.
The seven P principle, my cousin calls it.
He told me proper prior planningprevents piss poor performance.
(17:48):
And I really look at that now and Isay, Wow, that's part of life I never
really experienced, proper planning.
And, and it's true.
If we plan properly and we forgetabout all of the things that
(18:09):
we want and focus on our actualneeds, our life goes a lot better.
What is your take on that Massimo?
Massimo Rigotti (18:20):
I, I love it.
And, and one of the things that isactually in the execute step of, uh, the
sober method is looking ahead and creatinga plan that you're actually following.
And, uh, and I, I personally do itjust a little bit differently because
I tend to be a very long-term thinker.
(18:40):
Um, so I have like twenty year goals set.
But I try to get people into afive year, which is a big stretch.
A lot of people, which was reallywild to me when I started working with
others in my program, is that theydon't, most people don't look beyond
the end of the month in a lot of cases.
(19:02):
And that might even bea stretch, you know?
They're like, Oh, well, I don't evenknow what I'm gonna do on Friday.
I'm like, it's Wednesday, you know?
So it, it, that was a, thatwas an awakening for me.
So it, I, I encourage people tolook initially two years out.
Where do you want to be in two years?
Okay, now let's divide that out.
(19:23):
Think about that in sections.
In order to get to that goal, what,what would be a logical, I have to
be here at the end of this year?
And then you're like, Okay,that's your one year goal.
Okay, how would I get there?
I gotta divide that in half and Ilike do this whole divide in half
thing until you're down to, this iswhat you have to get done this week.
Oh, okay.
(19:44):
And, and then you frame up your life intoa big, long series of small, measurable
steps that are going to get you there.
It's kind of like looking at, uh,a, a 1% improvement plan, except
you're doing it with your own life.
You're like, Okay, I have totake these steps this week.
If I complete those, thenI'm gonna stay on goal.
(20:06):
The other thing that is really challengingwith those that come, I, I think for
most anybody, but especially thosewith addiction and in recovery, is
giving yourself a little bit of grace.
You may not make every goal thatyou, you know, set out to have
done by the end of the month.
Well, that's okay.
It's a little bit of a setback.
How are you gonna coursecorrect and, and adjust?
(20:28):
You can still make the six monthmark and, and understanding that
things happen and be okay with that.
Uh, I, I think oftentimes those ofus that have gone through addiction
recovery is that we get, we get reallydown on ourselves if any little thing,
just like it can just like knock thehouse of cards out from under us and,
(20:48):
and then suddenly we're not able to.
And, and that is somethingthat is, really comes from the
strength within the sober method.
And that's why I really like it becauseyou're focusing so deep within yourself
and really reframing your mind.
That as your mind strengthens up, yourealize that the little, these, these,
(21:09):
these things that used to be huge, thatwould be, completely ruin your day.
I mean, I mean, they seem so minutebecause what you, if you were on path
and you're on target, and you have goodplanning, you know what your goal is,
then all the little things around youthat used to seem huge, are nothing.
(21:29):
They just fall away becauseyou stay focused on that goal.
And if you're, if you're workingtowards that, it makes, it makes
life in general much more easy.
I think that we spend so much ofour time, uh, kind of going in
thirty different directions and, andwondering why we don't get anywhere.
Ed Watters (21:50):
Yeah.
Well, you know, I tell mywife, When I die, put don't
worry about it on my headstone.
And I really think when you figure thatout, all of that garbage goes away.
And you know, it goes intothat, Keep it simple, stupid.
And one, one day at atime, one step at a time.
(22:13):
And, and that is the keyto a healthy lifestyle.
And it's hard for addicts to put thatmindset into place, it, it takes years.
I've, I've, I've watched thousandsof addicts and, you know, drunks
just become nothing and die becauseof cirrhosis of the liver and all of
(22:40):
that because they don't wanna stepinto that hard place of that shame and
guilt of what we've done in the past.
And it, it's really, it, it reallykeeps my mind focused more on what
I'm doing here today with you, youknow, bettering myself and letting
(23:03):
people know that's watching orlistening to us today, It's okay.
You know, just keep it simple.
And, and we're all in thistogether, whether we like it or not.
So it, it's kinda like the Lord'sPrayer, you know, you can only do
(23:24):
so much and, you know, focus on whatyou can do and let the other go.
It, it's really part of a good,balanced approach to life.
Talk to us about your book and tell peoplehow they can get the book when it's done.
(23:49):
Uh, it, it's, it's aprocess to write a book.
What got you into the mindset of,Hey, I need to put this into a book
and this is how I'm going to do it.
Massimo Rigotti (24:02):
You aren't lying.
I think that, uh, I think writingthat, my first book was the hardest
thing I've ever done in my life.
I, it, it is tough, it is very tough.
So my first book, uh, is, is Flavors ofConfidence and Reflection For Those in
Need, and that book, uh, is my life story.
(24:23):
It is a reflection on my life, howI began, and, and, and my trials,
tribulations, my wild ride to success, myhard, uh, you know, fall to homelessness,
and, and then the dramatic rise back to,honestly, being in better shape in all
(24:45):
aspects of my life than I ever was before.
And that's an amazing thing right there.
Um, that was, that was tough.
And the reason that it was reallytough to write this, well, one, um,
the motivation to begin writing thiswas the, the tragic murder of someone
who was, you know, my rock and,and, and the closest person to me.
(25:06):
And so losing Samantha, you know,being the catalyst for writing this
book, made it so, um, it made itmuch more emotional than it probably
would've been, uh, otherwise.
Yet the exercise was tremendouslycathartic because I'd always
been a very private person.
I didn't really want people to knowthe inner workings of what was going
(25:28):
on inside my head and how, how I hadachieved things that I had achieved.
Um, I didn't really feel likeit was anyone's business.
It's just that's my private life andyou, you don't need to know anything.
So this was tough.
I had to open myself up in ways that I waseven brought up to like, you don't tell
people things about yourself, you know?
I, I don't know what type of familyyou were, but maybe it's also
(25:50):
generational, but I, that's the,that's the generation that I was in.
It was like, yeah, you just don't do that.
Um, and I'm, I'm ten yearsbehind you, so I'm forty-nine
up for the big five O this year.
So it's, uh, it, it's, it's, uh, it'sa milestone birthday is ahead of me.
Yeah, exactly.
Um, And, and, and so at the end ofthis book, I wrap it up with, with
(26:14):
what I was doing at the time, andthis was like a ten step, uh, method.
And it was just what I had beensharing with people that I saw
at AA and it wasn't very refined.
It was what I was doing personally.
Um, yet releasing the book almostimmediately showed me, and the book
came out two years ago, March of 23, andalmost immediately I was getting feedback.
(26:39):
And as I started working with people thatwere trying to use it, that it was clunky.
What step am I on?
What am I supposed to do after this?
Um, you know, it just, it just didn'treally work well in a larger scenario.
And so I went back to the drawingboard and I thought, Okay, how
can I make this easier and, andmaybe meld it into something?
(27:02):
And I was like, and what would I call it?
I mean, I can't, I mean,Flavors of Confidence is kind
of clunky, you know, as well.
So I thought, Maybe it's a sober method.
I'm like, Well, surelythat's taken by somebody.
There's no way that thatcan be available in 2023.
But sure enough, it was, So I,I latched onto it right away.
Yeah, I mean, so whatdo you use to get sober?
(27:25):
The sober Method.
I mean, it totally makes sense, right?
Uh,
uh, and so what I did then isI took my original ten steps
and I like rolled in a couple
steps into one.
Some, you know, like one of thesteps, the behavior step, was
always just the behavior step.
It used to be step six, andnow it's like step three.
(27:45):
So, um, but it, it made it much easier.
And then I went back to the drawingboard and it, it wasn't that much longer.
So in October, end of October of 23,I came out with The Sober Method book.
And that's when I really began workingspecifically to help others understand
that there are alternatives to AA.
(28:06):
Um, and, and I think thatthat is so important.
Not everything works for everyone.
And when you, when you have, youknow, you're being told that,
Oh, this is the best thing, okay?
And it's the most accepted thing.
So everybody goes to NA or AAbelieving this is the path.
And if it doesn't work, we'relike, Well, I tried everything.
(28:29):
Eh, that makes it so, I, I justso dislike when I hear that.
And that's why I also encourage otherways to get sober that aren't my own
method, because I recognize that, Hey,this might not be the best for you.
But the most important thing to meis that you find yourself and your
sobriety because you're gonna be thebest possible person when you do, so.
Ed Watters (28:56):
Yeah.
Yeah, I like that a lot.
Uh, when, when we discover ourselves,we're just this infinitely stronger
person and, and we can devourthe world and move mountains in
ways we never thought possible.
And I'm still learning new things,new ways to evolve into something
(29:22):
better than what I am now.
And that's really what it'sabout, is evolving and keep
that evolution happening.
We're we're this creature of habit,but we need to be forever learners.
And, and really that means read abook and, you know, get off of, you
(29:46):
know, I love YouTube and it's veryinformative, but, and I hate reading
books, but we specifically set a timethat is intentional for reading now.
And it is increasingly making me abetter person because I understand
(30:06):
the world around me better.
And I, I really wanna encouragethe watchers and the listeners
today to, you know, read a book.
Start with The Sober Method becauseyou're obviously here because you
wanna hear something about recovery.
And I, I think that's very important.
(30:28):
We, we find ourselves in that groupmentality when we go to AA meetings,
like I said before, in the parkinglot, we're going to the bar next.
And, and when we put ourselves in anenvironment of woes me, I'm a drunk,
(30:51):
and yeah, it, it can be very depressive.
And in the wrong mindset,you're gonna just stay right
there in that constant loop.
And that's what we're tryingto break is that loop, that
cycle, that addictive behavior.
So, yeah, I, I really encourage people,read a book and find as many methods,
(31:17):
whatever works for you is the best way.
Massimo Rigotti (31:22):
Yeah.
And I, I tell you, I love what yousaid just now about being a lifelong
learner, that nothing will keepyou more youthful than curiosity.
And when, when you don't know somethingor you see something that's even
remotely interesting to you, ask.
You know, the most amazing thingsand, and experiences in my life have
(31:44):
been when I saw or noticed somebodydoing something and I walked up to
them and was like, that's really cool.
How does this work?
And anybody who's doing theirjob, oh, they love that.
They would, they lovetelling you what they do.
Uh, mainly because, and I jokingly saythis often, mainly because when they
go home at night, the last thing theirwife wants to hear is how work went.
(32:06):
So they're more than happy to tell youabout whatever they're doing, right?
Uh,
so I mean, like take advantageof that because then it
might spark something else.
You're like, you know, in thatexplanation you might learn something
about something else and you're like,Ooh, I wonder how that came to be.
(32:27):
And then you can go downand search that out.
And there's so, you know,there's an infinite amount of
things that you don't know.
And I am in a constant questto learn what I don't know.
And I can spend the rest of mylife and I won't even get close to
understanding most everything, you know?
(32:49):
And so that is, yes,yes, that's totally okay.
The other thing that this does for you,especially if you're struggling with
addiction, it gives you a new addiction.
You can be addicted to learning.
I mean,
Ed Watters (33:07):
Yeah, that's right.
That, that's so true.
You know, shift the behavior.
Massimo Rigotti (33:15):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
I don't think that we ever truly losethat portion of who we are as addicts.
I don't think it ever truly goes away.
We channel it in different ways,uh, in order to take care of that
need within our, our own mind.
Those that are, that have addictionand struggle with addiction, there
(33:38):
are underlying things going on in yourhead that are never going to change.
But you learn to reroutethese into productive things.
One might argue that I'm addicted togoing through The Sober Method time
after time, or that I'm addicted tolearning, or that I, you know, like
those are all aspects of utilizingwhat I really believe is a superpower.
(34:03):
You, if you look at your addictivenature as something that you can
harness as, think of the drivethat you might undertake in order
to remain addicted to something.
I think about all the crazy things that Idid in order to just get that next drink.
You know, like, oh, I know how Ican make some money really fast.
(34:24):
I mean, like, that's creativity.
I mean, like, so if, if you canchannel those things into something
productive, imagine what you can do.
It's, it's endless.
It's great.
Ed Watters (34:37):
That's right.
I, I, I'm with you ahundred percent on that.
So, uh, Massimo, is there anythingthat we've missed that you wanna
add to our conversation today?
Massimo Rigotti (34:54):
I, you know, I just would really like to add that there's
no reason to be discouraged with, withwhere you are in your process of recovery.
That if you're taking the smalleststep to recognize the, that you
need to do something and you falldown fifty times trying to stand
up sober, that's totally okay.
(35:16):
I, I, I did the same thing.
I went through threereally bad, I'm, I got it.
I got it.
I'm standing up and then completelyfell down and destroyed what
I had, I had, I had rebuilt injust a short number of weeks.
It's okay, because I'm okay now.
(35:37):
And the fact that you continue thedrive, that's the most important thing.
Take those small measurable stepsto, to bettering yourself until one
day you're on the other side of it.
And you'll begin to wonder how wasI ever allowing this in my life?
How was I ever allowingmyself to not see clearly?
(35:59):
And see the world in a way that is so muchmore, um, so much more beautiful and so
much more rewarding to, to, uh, experiencelife without it clouded by substances.
It really is.
I, I, I, I don't know that youever really truly recognize that
(36:19):
until you get several years sober.
And then you start seeing things thatyou, you've realized, like you experienced
something that you did when you hadbeen, uh, drunk or high, and you're
like, Wow, this would've been amazing.
And, and, and it really is so coolbecause it affirms that, you know
what the work, the hard work thatI've been doing, It's worth it.
(36:40):
And that's your reward.
And don't give up on yourself.
Every, anything that, that you believeis possible in life is possible
with enough hard work and effort.
And it doesn't have to be like fullout, it just needs to be a tiny
bit of effort every single day.
Because consistency will beat thehardest worker every day, that's why
(37:03):
The Tortoise and The Hare story exists.
We always think about that as beinglike some sort of speed story,
running fast, and it doesn't reallyhave anything to do with that.
If you really break it down,
the tortoise and hare story is just aboutgetting up and doing the bare minimum
every day without ever not doing it asopposed to the hare where, like running
really fast and then like, you know,having fun for five, six days and then
(37:25):
the hare, you know, falls behind again.
And you don't wanna be thehare, you wanna be the tortoise.
It just like slowly moves and slowlygets better until one day you look
back and like, Wow, I beat this.
I won the race.
Ed Watters (37:38):
Yeah, I like that a lot.
You know, and a lot of ithas to do with that mindset.
Where are you in your life?
Who are you around?
And there's this thing calledthe crab in the bucket syndrome.
Are you around people thatwant you where they are?
(37:59):
Take a, take a shot right now in your lifeand figure out, Am I doing this for me or
because I have to be here because of them?
You know, we're all stuck in thebucket, and it is okay to get out.
(38:19):
Uh, I've had a great time speaking withyou today, and I would really like to
do this again with you at some point.
Could you let people know how toget ahold of you and work with you?
Massimo Rigotti (38:35):
Absolutely.
So anyone that is interested in whatI do, uh, check out sobermethod.com
or @sobermethod on all of thesocials, I post daily content.
If you go to sobermethod.com, you canconnect with me, also my own website,
massimorigotti.com, uh, as well.
If you're interested in any privatecoaching, uh, which I happily do
(38:59):
and enjoy, that's probably the mostrewarding thing that I do at the moment.
So, um, thank you Ed,so much for your time.
I really enjoyed it.
And I would love to, uh, do a deeperdive into, uh, some subsections
of what we talked about today.
It's been a real pleasure,uh, speaking with you.
Thank you so much for allowing meto come on your, uh, your podcast
(39:19):
and, and speak to your listeners.
Ed Watters (39:23):
Massimo, it's been a great, fantastic journey with you today.
Thank you for being here.
Thank you for joining us today.
If you found this podcast enlightening,entertaining, educational in any way,
please share, like, subscribe, and joinus right back here next week for another
(39:48):
great episode of the Dead America Podcast.
I'm Ed Watters, your host, enjoyyour afternoon wherever you might be.
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