March 19, 2025 • 47 mins
Discover the inspiring journey of Dana S. Diaz in this powerful episode of the Dead America Podcast. Author of 'Choking on Shame: The Scapegoat Child in a Narcissistic Family', Dana returns to share her deeply personal story of surviving an abusive childhood, navigating the challenges of living with a narcissist, and finding the strength to heal. Host Ed Watters and Dana dive into topics like emotional and psychological abuse, childhood neglect, generational trauma, and the transformative power of self-awareness and communication. Together, they shed light on the complexities of abuse and the importance of breaking trauma cycles to heal and grow.
This episode offers a thought-provoking exploration of societal progress and resilience, providing hope and guidance for anyone impacted by trauma. Tune in to gain insights and empower your healing journey.
Times stamps:
00:00 Introduction: The Power of Education
00:55 Guest Introduction: Dana S. Diaz
01:15 Dana's Personal Journey
02:30 The Impact of Childhood Trauma
06:22 Understanding Abuse Beyond Physical Harm
07:23 The Role of Emotional Neglect
08:52 The Importance of Connection
12:16 Healing and Overcoming Trauma
29:23 Generational Trauma and Societal Progress
41:39 The Role of Awareness and Communication
44:36 Conclusion and Call to Action
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
To overcome, you must educate.
Educate not only yourself, buteducate anyone seeking to learn.
We are all Dead America,we can all learn something.
To learn, we must challengewhat we already understand.
(00:27):
The way we do that isthrough conversation.
Sometimes we have conversations withothers, however, some of the best
conversations happen with ourselves.
Reach out and challenge yourself; let'sdive in and learn something new right now.
(00:55):
Today we're speaking with Dana S. Diaz,she's a returning guest to the podcast.
Her new book, Choking on Shame, TheScapegoat Child in a Narcissistic Family.
Dana, could you please introduceyourself and let people know a
little more about you, please?
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, I was, as you said, a guestbefore with my book Gasping for
(01:19):
Air, which talked about my formermarriage, um, which, in which I was
married to an abusive narcissist.
And the abuse, living that fightor flight mode for so long actually
made me autoimmune and gave me a lungdisease, kind of reaffirming that, that
cliche that stress really can kill you.
But after that book came out, a lotof people were asking, Well, we're
(01:42):
meeting you, we're seeing you, we'rehearing you, you know, in interviews,
you seem like an independentminded, um, strong willed, educated
woman, like how could you end upbeing in this situation where you
were submitting to this man whoclearly didn't know what he had?
And, you know, it didn't take me but asecond to say, Well, it was my childhood.
(02:05):
I mean, isn't that, I mean, I hate tobe cliche in that way and blame the
parents, but the reality is, is that weare kind of hardwired by the time we're
six or seven years old as to who weare and what our place is in the world.
And how to relate with other peopleand roles and all these things that
we absorb, even though people don'trealize we're taking, we don't even
(02:28):
realize we're taking in this information.
So, you know, we kind of went backwardswriting this prequel Choking on Shame,
which goes right into my personalstory of being born to a teenage
mother who didn't want me and Iwould argue didn't want any children.
But then how she went on to remainemotionally detached from me, allowed
(02:52):
the man she ended up marrying toabuse me, um, and how that basically
set me up on the wrong path for life.
Yeah, it's a riveting tale onceyou dive into Dana's story.
But you know, it was really kind ofpiquing my interest and it was one of
my highlighted questions about why youstarted in the middle of the story.
(03:18):
Is there a reason for that oris it just by chance that you
went back to explain forward.
Honestly, I never meant towrite more than one book.
And when I originally set to writeanything, tell my story, so to
(03:38):
speak, I wrote the whole story.
But forty some years of very complex,emotional, and psychological, and physical
warfare basically, and, and unravelingall that so that people can really
understand the depths of it, um, it,we just couldn't do that in one book.
(04:02):
So we just put the one book out there.
We focused on the one relationship,you know, a romantic relationship
with a narcissist and how thatobviously went very wrong.
Um, started off bad, ended up withdomestic violence even after the
divorce, um, as we discussed last time.
So this time, like I said, it wasmore in response to readers because
(04:25):
a lot of people do reach out tome and I'm thankful for that.
You know, that they read Gasping for Airand they said, I have the strength now.
Thank you.
You know, I'm going to leave myrelationship or I just ended my
relationship because I realized,you know, that I deserve
better too, and all this stuff.
But there were still thosequestions, people are always
seeking to understand the reasons.
(04:48):
Why did they do this to me?
Why did I succumb to it?
What made me vulnerable to it?
And my answer, I'm not a doctor, I'mnot a therapist and, you know, I could
sit and give reasons to every individualperson, but the best way to do anything
was just to tell my experience.
(05:08):
And my experience was that Iwas basically primed for it.
I was raised to think that I wasnothing and that I would never be
an, I was actually told directly as achild that nobody would ever love me.
Nobody ever wanted me, you know,it was the typical, I would never
be enough, that whole thing.
And it's such a pitying thing.
(05:30):
But what's even sadder is that astenacious as I was, even as a child,
and stood up for myself, and I would,I would shout back and say, No, I'm
good, I'm, I'm, somebody's gonna loveme, you know, I would fight it, but
I was still making it mean somethingabout me at the end of the day.
(05:53):
And it made me feel deficient.
And I went out in the world and the firstguy I found that gave me the slightest
bit of attention, I just glommed onbecause I was looking for that love and
affection that I hadn't gotten at home.
I was that kid that didn't get hugged orsoothed, you know, I was always a bother.
(06:13):
If I scraped my knee, if I wascrying about something, I needed
to stop feeling anything, I wasn'tallowed to have emotions, you know?
So we tell of all this because I don'tthink people realize when they think about
child abuse or any abuse, even in adultrelationships, you think abuse, you think
a woman, you know, walking around witha black eye or a kid walking around, you
(06:37):
know, with being banged up and bruised.
We don't understand that that'ssuch a small part of abuse.
I mean, as of last year, the Children'sAlliance here in the U. S. said that
only eighteen percent, I mean, only, it'sstill too much, but eighteen percent of
child abuse cases last year were physical.
(06:59):
Just 18%.
You know, even less of apercentage were sexual.
Thank God, because I think that'sprobably the worst, honestly.
Um, but most of it, most of itdeals with the psychological stuff.
The neglect, emotional neglect, becauseneglect, people think it's just,
(07:20):
Oh, you're not feeding your child.
You're not providing them.
But we all have needs and part of thatis the need to belong, the need to
feel secure, the need to feel safe.
And yes, we need air to breatheand we need food for nourishment
to survive and water and such.
But there's this element thatemotional neglect is huge.
(07:44):
Because, I mean, look at wherewe are now, September is Suicide
Awareness Month worldwide.
Why do people kill themselves?
Because they're lonely and they arealone with that pain of that loneliness.
It's not because they wantto die, I guarantee you.
It's not because they want to die,they just want the pain to stop.
(08:04):
But where does that pain originate?
Where does that loneliness originate?
In childhood.
And it's in these neglect casesthat take up way too much.
And, and, and you know, people thinkit's among, you know, lower income
or, you know, minority, um, you know,and ethnic groups, but it's not.
(08:24):
By an astronomical percentage, this isprevalent more among Caucasian people.
Because if you look at, you know, andI'm just going off the top of my head,
but Asian cultures, Hispanic cultures,Indian cultures, all around the world,
people are more communal.
You know, grandma lives in the home,maybe aunts and uncles, and cousins,
(08:48):
and, and, and everybody gets raisedwithin that community of family.
And here in this country, you know,and forgive me, I mean, I'm white
too, but we have this thing aboutindependence and, you know, all this
self and me, me, me, we lose ourselvesin that because we are not connecting.
(09:08):
I mean, it's a basichuman need to connect.
And when we're not getting thatconnection, I mean, for me, I had zero
connection with my mother, my stepfatherdidn't even want to try to connect
with me, I was alone as a little girl.
And thank God I'm still standing hereand, and I'm getting better every day.
But I mean, it's a life, these arelifelong damaging things that you're
(09:32):
constantly looking for love and itcreates that codependency and these
people pleasing habits and all this stuffthat ends us up in toxic relationships
where we're disappointed all overagain, you know, for a million reasons.
But, um, this is something thatdefinitely needs attention.
I think if we could make people more awareof it, then, maybe we can't change the
(09:54):
world, but we can maybe change how a fewpeople interact with their kids at home.
You know, like, get off your damn phone,stop scrolling through social media,
when your child comes to you, justlook at them, give them your attention.
Put the phones down at dinner,turn the TV off, talk to your kids.
(10:16):
Then maybe your kids will cometo you and want to talk with you.
I mean, when was the last time, Irarely see a parent outside tossing or
kicking a ball around with their kid.
Like, we need to start creating thatconnection again and stop with the social
stuff and stop with this electronic crap.
(10:36):
Because your kid does not need tobe raised by Spongebob or whoever.
Like, we just really needto get people to wake up.
Yeah, I agree 100 percent with that Dana.
You're getting good at this.
Uh, I just want to compliment you on that.
Yeah, you know, a lot of people, theyget nervous when they start touting the
(11:01):
numbers, but you're really good at that.
And I appreciate that you broughtthat awareness into what we're doing
because that's truly what we'reabout is highlighting these abuses.
And we're getting betterourselves at doing this.
My wife, you know, she was told thesame thing, You'll never find anybody.
(11:24):
You're not worth anything.
And I can tell you, as awitness, what devastating
consequences that has long term.
And it's, it's such a shamebecause my wife is beautiful.
She's one of the bestpersons on this planet.
And I don't understand how her fatheror her mother could let this happen.
(11:52):
But how could they even conclude that?
It's really shameful in many ways.
And that really is what youhighlight, that narcissistic,
uh, disease in our culture.
And, and I really appreciate that you'retaking the time doing these things.
(12:16):
What has been the most educational thingthat you've learned since you've started
podcasting about narcissistic behaviors.
Wow.
I mean, I think it's interesting,you know, I'm going to say this,
I don't know if it's educational,but it's something that I learned.
(12:39):
In the middle of a podcast interview,as a matter of fact, because this is
the first thing that came to mind whenyou asked that question, you know, I
got chills when you said that aboutyour wife, because I'm forty-eight
years old and I'm still dealing with it.
Getting better, improving, but my God,it just never, that nagging feeling,
(13:03):
that repeat of those words in yourmind when something triggers that.
And, and I feel badly for my husband,because I'm remarried, and my husband
is so sweet, and so gentle, and soamazing, and so understanding, even
though he has no clue what this is like.
Because he grew up in a tight knit,close, you know, very nice family.
(13:24):
But he's so patient with me, thank God.
But, you know, I was on this podcastand I was telling this story, you know,
about how I was, you know, born to mymother and she was a teenager and she
didn't want me and how I, right aftermy birth, I mean, immediately after
my birth, she didn't even hold me.
(13:46):
I was told, obviously I didn'tremember, I was just born, but she had
her tubes tied right then and there.
Right then and there.
Which tells me she didn't want anychildren, I was kind of cramping her
style because she had plans for herlife and I wasn't part of that plan.
But I remember the podcast host saying
(14:08):
that she kind of felt sorry for my mother.
And at first I was, I mean, you couldsee my body here, I'm like, what?
Like, I'm like appalled.
Like, I'm the victim here.
Like, I am the one that'shad to deal with this.
But I realized in that moment thatthat was my ego being insulted.
(14:29):
Because when I actually gotoff that podcast and thought
about it, I'm like, Man.
You know, I mean, I am fully aware
that what happened in my childhood, and Italk about that in my book, you know, my
mother grew up in an abusive home as well.
She had, do you want totalk about a narcissist?
Her father was a drunknarcissist, put a gun to her head.
(14:52):
Like, she endured horrors that nochild should ever have to endure.
And then the man she ended upmarrying, well, he was literally,
both parents abandoned him andhis siblings when he was a baby.
They were, grew up in fostercare where he was abused.
So like, I get it.
I understand, but that does not excuse it.
(15:14):
Because they still madea choice to abuse me.
And having been abused, Imean, I didn't abuse my son.
I made that choice.
But going back to that feeling sorryfor my mom, I realized in that after
I got over myself, you know, andmy own insult about that comment,
(15:37):
I realized that, you know what?
We're all living a human experienceand who am I to say that my mother
at sixteen years old or seventeenyears old should have known better
or should have been more aware tohave made a choice to raise me right?
Because I thought, Oh my gosh,I guess I feel bad for her too.
(16:01):
Because I started thinking when I'm,you know, sixteen, seventeen years old,
my God, you know, the biggest decisionI had was like, what was I going to
wear that day and change ten times.
Like, life should be that petty andsimple and ridiculous, not, Oh my gosh,
I have now this baby and I'm living inan abusive home where my drunk narcissist
(16:25):
father is slinging stuff around andbringing women home every night that
my mother has to walk into, you know,the living room and see him having sex
with, that was the life she was living.
And so taking a step back from myselfand looking at it objectively, I'm like,
Man, I guess I do feel sorry for her too.
Because, you know, we always say theydid the best they could, but we can't
(16:48):
assume that everybody opens theireyes and says, Oh, I have to heal
from all of this trauma so that Ican be the best parent that I can be.
I mean, it takes people sometimestill their thirties, or forties,
fifties, sixties, seventies to do that.
How is she going to do that at sixteen?
You know, so that was probably the biggestlesson that I've learned in all this.
(17:11):
And I was so grateful tothat podcast host, you know?
You know, like I said, onceI got over the offense.
But it was a lesson for myselftoo, because that's exactly where
narcissism comes from is the ego.
And we all have it andwe all operate in it.
You know, when we feel offended, when wefeel hurt, all insulted, that's our ego.
(17:34):
And, and I think that that's whatmade me realize that, you know what?
I can let go of this.
You know, I don't want to say I everhated my mother, but I think I resented
her tremendously for letting me grow upthat way and letting all that stuff happen
(17:56):
to me and, and her participation in it.
But I think that helpedme to release that.
You know, a good portion of it andrealize that she was living life,
she was dealing with things thebest that she knew at that age.
She was just a baby herself and she didn'tknow what to do with me coming along.
(18:17):
Now being a baby in her care.
So it's eyeopening when you realize it.
And certainly I don't want tobe a narcissist and we all have
narcissistic tendencies at times,you know, where we feel those
things and our ego doesn't like it.
But I think if we can be aware ofit and move forward and move out of
it, then that's where we'll be okay.
(18:38):
And where we'll have room for thatempathy that we need to have for others
to make the world a better place.
Yeah, that's true.
I like that a lot.
And that is a good lesson because alot of us overlook that simple fact.
I, I often talk to my wife about this.
What did our family go through before wewere even born that made them do this.
(19:03):
And, and if we learn to empathize withthat a little bit, our own troubles
tend to lessen just a wee bit.
Not, not everything, becauselike you said, it's a, lifelong
thing, and we always feel it.
I, I've been through abuse myselfand I can tell you even men that want
(19:26):
to pretend that they're tough andthey, they appear nothing shocks or
influences them, it does in many ways.
And that behavior, it, it reallyinduces this type of narcissistic
behavior towards other people.
Yeah, I agree with that.
(19:47):
I think that comes out of an angerbecause you're repressing everything
and, and you know, eventually it'sgoing to just erupt out of you.
Yeah, I agree a lot.
And through discovery walking thispath of healing, because it takes
a long time, my wife and I arereally starting to grow together
(20:12):
now instead of just being together.
And there's a big difference.
You know, I love my wife andit took everything I had to
really look deep inside myself.
Because I was a shameful guy, I camefrom dirt that was just stinky mud.
(20:36):
And to clean it up, that'sa choice, like you said.
And this is what we have to remember, ifyou continue your walk, it's by choice.
It's not an excuse.
And a lot of people need to rememberthat and understand all you're
(20:59):
doing is making it an excuse.
There's always reasons wedon't want to do something.
And generally, it's because that shame andguilt that we feel from our own actions.
Wouldn't you agree?
I agree a hundred percent.
And I think that also there'sthis misconception about healing.
(21:22):
You know, I, I used to always getannoyed when people would say,
cause it's a common thing, peoplesay, Oh, let it go, let it go.
And I, I remember getting frustrated withpeople when they kept saying that to me.
And I would say, It's not likeI'm trying to hold on to this.
I don't want that, who the hell wantsto live with this stuff in their head?
(21:42):
But at the same time,I'll be honest with you.
And this has been my journey of selfawareness and self discovery was
that as much as I didn't want to livelike that, and as much as I did want
to let go, I was holding on to it.
I was holding on to it.
You know, I, I told somebody recentlythat it's like, it's like I was thrown
(22:04):
off a cliff and I'm hanging on to arope and, and, and somebody you know, it
could be any number of the people thatabused me, just as willing to cut, cut
that rope and let me fall to my death.
You know, yet I'm the one that putmyself, I went to the cliff with them.
I was still holding onto that rope.
(22:26):
I didn't have to be there, I didn'thave to put myself in that circumstance.
So I was, I was making a choiceto hold on to that and to
imprison myself in the past.
And as long as I was imprisoningmyself in the past, I could not let
in the blessings of now, the present.
The future.
I couldn't be happy.
Like that's a common thingand I, something I struggled
(22:48):
with is, why can't I be happy?
Like life is good now,why can't I be happy?
Because I haven't settled the stuffof the past, I haven't resolved my
anger and resentment and all that otherstuff to be able to remove that, that,
that crap from my heart, basically.
I know that's not a nice word, but,um, the only one that came to mind.
(23:12):
But once you can remove that muck fromyour heart, then you have room for the
joy and the happy and all that good stuff.
But we just don't know.
And, and honestly, in my defense,having grown up in that childhood and
then spending twenty-five years with anabusive husband in a marriage, honestly,
I think I was so used to the chaos thatI had just forgotten how to just be.
(23:39):
And how to just be happy and howto even let myself feel happiness.
Because I was afraid to.
I was like, The bomb's gonnadrop, I can't trust this.
This is not what it really, you know,this isn't what it appears to be.
Whether it's a person, a situation,I can't let my guard down.
Can't smile, can't laugh, can't do anyof that because I got to be on guard.
(24:03):
I have to be vigilant.
Well, you know, at some point I, Ihad to make the decision and, and, and
tell myself, Lay the sword down, honey.
Lay the damn sword down.
We don't have to fight anymore,there's nobody to fight.
You know, and it takes a long timeand I'm sure your wife can relate,
(24:24):
it takes a long time for you toconvince your mind that you're okay.
And then your body takeseven longer sometimes.
That, that nervous system that, thatserves basically as, as an inner alarm
for us, you know, to know if we'rein danger or not, it takes it a long
time to trust how things are now andto settle and to know you're okay.
(24:48):
And, but it has to start in your mind.
There is a true mind and body connectionand we have to make the choice.
And now what, what frustrates menow is when people reach out to me,
and I, I feel it, like they say,I want to, I want to let it go.
I want to move past it, I want to heal.
I want it to, whatever it is.
But they don't.
(25:09):
Because you give them, you can hand themon a silver platter, here's what you
need to do, or here's what worked for me.
And those, Oh, that won't work for me.
Oh, I can't do that.
There's no such thing as can'tand that's a whole other lecture.
It is a choice though.
You can, you know?
I used to coach cross country and Iused to tell the kids, No, you can't
(25:29):
run ten miles today, but you can maybein the future, if you start practicing
and taking the steps towards it.
But you're never going to get anywhere,you can't if you decide you're not to.
If you say that to yourself, you won't.
So we need to start talking to ourselvesin a kinder way, we need to start
(25:51):
reminding ourselves of our worth.
You know, instead oflooking for it externally.
And we need to start really justkind of nurturing ourselves when
we didn't have that parent or,or, God forbid, in my case, both
parents to nurture you in that way.
You kind of grow up and findyourself in your forties, you know,
kind of being your own parent andtrying to nurture that, that stuff
(26:14):
inside you that needs to feel okay.
So that you can live the rest of your lifehaving some, some peace, if nothing else.
Yeah.
Well, there's no manual for any of this.
And, and, you know, it's very interesting,my wife went through physical and sexual
abuse and your book opens up with this.
(26:38):
It's, it's the same, same thing.
You know, your father or stepfather,excuse me, he, he basically doesn't
realize he's dealing with a child.
You know, going to a TVset and clicking a TV knob.
(27:00):
I used to do that constantlybecause I was trying to figure
out what made it work, you know?
So
Yeah, I just liked the clicking sound.
And I was, yeah, you're a littlekid, you're just messing around.
But yeah, they, they, it's very sadto me that a grown man, though, can
(27:20):
feel that, that need, that insatiableneed to harm a little tiny child.
So that they can havetheir peace, I suppose.
But yeah, it's hard.
It's hard.
And you know, when I grew up, whenI got to be a teenager and got to be
(27:43):
the same size, I was bigger and I wasangrier, I got pretty damn angry by the
time I was fifteen, sixteen you know?
But to have your own mother put herhands around your neck and, and to
black out and think you're gonna,you're, you know, I remember thinking,
my, my mother's going to kill me.
I'm, my life is over right now, youknow, and, and that's a horrible thing.
(28:05):
And it's hard to get past that.
Because, you know, I always joke,but it's not funny, like, you know,
I know Charles Manson was an orphan,but you know, like Jeffrey Dahmer, I'm
thinking of like serial killers, likedid horrific things, chopping people
up and hiding them in his freezer.
You know, dozens of people.
Yet his mother was still sitting behindhim in court, that was still her son.
(28:28):
She acknowledged he did wrong, butshe still loved her son and was there.
And I'm thinking, my God, I was likethe ultimate people pleasing child.
Like I, I strove for perfection.
I strove to do everything exactlyright, I was a straight arrow.
You know, good kid, good grades, nevergot in trouble, never smoked, never drank,
(28:50):
like why?
I just wanted to be seen, Ijust wanted to be acknowledged
and there was just nothing.
I could, and so that, that's a hard thing.
I mean, I watched my barn catsreject some kittens sometimes.
But my God, when it's your mother,like, how can you, how can you
believe anybody ever would loveyou if your own mother can't?
(29:12):
Because she's the one person who'ssupposed to when nobody else does.
And that's a tough one.
Yeah.
So, so, you know, it's very interesting.
We talk about generationalcurses and traumas.
That choice to change, you know,that, that is really heavy.
(29:35):
And I'm still trying to pinpoint whatmakes us change and choose to not
follow that generational guidance.
Because I think this really deep andwe need to really kind of pinpoint
the why and what makes the individualchoose to go in a different direction.
(30:00):
Yeah, that's interesting becauseI don't have the answer to that.
I can only speak to my experienceand what, what was different for me.
I think two things.
One of the biggest things wasthat we have to acknowledge the
fact that society progresses.
Because I'm generation X and I'venoticed that the baby boomer generation,
(30:26):
which is the one that came beforemine, baby boomers and older tend to
have come from that hush hush politesociety where you don't talk about it.
I mean
women in the thirties, forties,and fifties, and sixties were
being, you know, abused by husbands.
You know, they putconcealer over their eyes
and they hid, you know,
(30:47):
they had the nice wavy curls, you know,those fancy hairdos, and they kept their
head down when they went to the grocerystore and nobody asked and nobody told
and it just was whatit was, same with kids.
But we also had that, you know, wedidn't have electronics back, you
know, even when I was a kid that ifsomebody had an issue with you, they
(31:09):
beat your butt on the school playground.
They beat your butt on your lawn outsideyour house, they came knocking on your
door looking for you and grabbed youby the cuff of your shirt, drug you
outside and beat the crap out of you.
And nobody's parent was stopping it.
And nobody, you know, you had ablack eye, you had some bruises
and that's just how it was.
(31:29):
And you took it because youknew you probably, you know, had
done something to deserve it.
That's just how life was.
So I think to some extent,there was an acceptance.
And you add on to that, I mean, thisis, I'm tying in spousal abuse and
(31:49):
child abuse because it is, it kindof does go hand in hand, obviously.
Um, but even as recent as the seventieswhen I was born, a woman in the
United States of America, all thesefreedoms we talk about now, a woman
could not file charges against herhusband for domestic abuse or violence.
(32:12):
Oh my gosh.
And you know, the thing is, isthat men get abused by women too.
But a man back then would oh, therewas too much pride in being a man.
A man would never even admitthat his wife was abusing.
So you have to remember that now that,I hate to say, I go back to the social
stuff, social media, the internet, really,
(32:36):
when did it come out?
1995 I think was the first time theinternet was available to everybody, and
now that there's all this informationand people are connecting and things are
being exposed, there, I think everything'skind of being blown open to where we
don't have to keep secrets anymore.
So I think that's partiallywhy we are more vocal about it
(33:01):
and we're more, you know, we'rebringing more awareness to things.
And thank goodness, because nobodyshould have to hide that stuff.
And I think I should have a rightas a child, or as a wife, or if
it were a husband, or whatever itis, to go to somebody and say this
is happening and it needs to stop.
And that's where we're stillstruggling in this society.
(33:23):
Because you know they say seventysome percent of child abuse cases
are actually reported by teachers.
And that bothers me because youcannot tell me that if there's a
two parent household or even morethan one child in a household that
they don't know what's going on.
(33:44):
And you can't tell me the neighborisn't seeing it, or the bus driver
on the school bus, or the peopleat church, or at the library, or
wherever else this kid is going.
And it just pains me, it painsme because I was that kid.
I was that kid that also went to schoolwith my head down, wearing long sleeves
(34:06):
when it was hot in the summer to hidethe marks on my arms and, and on my legs.
And, and I wanted somebody to see, andon the very rare occasions, somebody
would say, Is there something going on?
Nope, nothing's, because I was terrified.
But we need people to be more involved.
And, and, you know, not necessarilypush the child more to expose it,
(34:28):
but maybe bring more attention to it.
You know, there has to be consequences.
Because I look back at my situation andgranted I haven't, I'm not really fully
aware of how child services works inmy area, nevermind all areas of this
country, but in the nineties when theycame into my life and I had a round
(34:50):
with them, they didn't do a whole lot.
They didn't do crap, honestly.
They interviewed my, my mother andstepfather's employees at their business
who said they were these great, greatpeople who would never do that to me.
Well, they wanted theirjobs, my goodness gracious.
I mean, ask somebody else,because let me tell you something,
(35:14):
child services didn't do anything.
And they left my brother,my little brother.
Cause my mother did end up reversingher tubal ligation and having a child
with my stepfather because I wasn't his.
He made that so blatantly a bigpart of my childhood that I wasn't
his, he wanted his own child.
So they ended up having a child.
(35:34):
But even when I was under investigationall of this stuff, they left
my little brother in the home.
And it just made me remember that book,I don't know if anyone has read this,
it's called A Child Called It.
I think David Pelzer is the author.
This came out back in the nineties.
But he was one of five children,one of the worst cases of
(35:55):
abuse in California history.
And he was the only one abused in thathouse by the mother and severely abused.
The other kids noticed it, wouldeven leave the room, sometimes even
participate as far as helping themother prepare or arrange for it.
And the husband, thefather, was in the home.
(36:16):
And also the one thing that startled me inthat book was, one of the times that the,
you know, the, the author was saying he,he, he knew he was about to get abused.
You know, his mother would tellhim, Okay, this is happening now.
And I mean, she was like puttingan iron on him and burning him, and
putting his hands on open flames onthe, just doing horrific things to him.
(36:41):
And the dad was like, Okay, I'mgoing to take the other kids, the
other four kids out for ice cream.
Like, are you kidding me right now?
He knew that his wife was about to abuse.
But this is, this is the thing,granted that that's, you know,
there are these extraordinarily,you know, exceptional stories.
(37:01):
And, and mine is certainlynot one of those.
But the fact that this happens everysingle day and nobody, even the people
in the home, don't do anything about it.
Because I'm going to tell you something.
When my book came out, um, itwas released a little early.
So I got a phone call, said unknownnumber, and when I answered, I
(37:26):
recognized the voice, but you knowhow you can't quite place it, and
she said, Do you know who this is?
And I was like, I felt embarrassed,you know, like, I'm like,
I should know who this is.
But I didn't know who it was.
Anyway, she, she told me who she was.
It was somebody that, shewas an adult in my life.
So she cut my hair.
(37:47):
She was my hairdresser, I guess youwould say, when I was a little girl
from the time I was probably five orsix all the way up through college.
And I mean, this is a hairdresser.
How often did I see her?
A few times a year?
She says, I'm so glad to hear your voice.
She says, I saw your book.
(38:08):
A friend of mine told me you releasedthis book, and she said, You know,
I didn't know your stepfather.
I only saw your mother whenshe would bring you in.
But she says, Your motherwas always so melancholy.
Like I knew there was something goingon and I can tell looking at you every
time there was something going on.
And she said, I always thought I wouldlook at the news and see that he had
(38:34):
killed you and your mother, like in somekind of like family murder, suicide thing.
And just leave your bodiesat the side of the road dead.
So she says, I'm so glad you're okay.
And I mean, it was touching thatshe got in touch with me and
I was glad to hear from her.
But, again, it reiterated that, thisfrustration I have that if somebody
(38:57):
even remotely thought, I mean, whydidn't you err on the side of caution?
Why didn't you alert somebody?
Why didn't you pull me asideand ask me what was going on?
Why am I forty-eight years old andjust now hearing that somebody that
last saw me thirty years ago istelling me she's glad I'm alive.
(39:18):
And, and, and we have, you know,we have communicated since.
And I don't hold anybody responsiblebecause at the end of the day, the
responsible party is the abuser.
But going back to child services,I just want to say one more thing.
And this is what reallymakes me angry about this.
And what really needs to still changein society is that, what do they do?
(39:41):
They took me out of the home temporarily.
Granted I got sent back, but theytake the child out of the home.
Sometimes in the more severe cases orwhen they actually do their job and see
that this child needs help, the childgets whatever services, counseling,
therapy, whatever treatments they need.
(40:03):
Thank God.
But what about the abusers?
Why aren't they beingremoved from the home?
Why aren't they getting thetreatment that they need?
Why aren't they being forced, I'msorry, healing should be a choice,
and it's a lot of work, but why aren'tthey attempting to rehabilitate the
(40:25):
people that are doing these things?
Because until we go, you know, youcan't just put a bandaid on something,
you have to go to the core of it.
That's what healing iswhen we're trying to heal.
But I can heal all day long,but you want to know something?
My mother and I are estranged.
My stepfather, he doesn't talkto me either, and I don't really
care about him, but there's nohealing going on in their house.
(40:49):
Nobody has gone to therapyto face their trauma.
They are going through the samemotions every day like nothing is
wrong, refusing to face it, andprojecting it on to other people.
Me, mainly, because I'm the scapegoat.
Even though we have no contact, I'mstill being talked about, lied about, and
(41:11):
scapegoated as the reason for all of theirproblems and all of their angst and woes.
And I think that is themost ridiculous thing.
We have to catch up, we have to starttaking these parents out of the homes.
Stop with trying to fix the kid becausethere's nothing wrong with the kid,
there's something wrong with the parent.
(41:33):
Yeah.
Yeah, there's big problems and issueswith the whole system, how we handle this.
And, you know, the, the big thing here,Dana, I think you really highlighted
is, awareness is being brought sincethe introduction of the internet.
And there's more people like meand you sitting, talking, and
(41:57):
then sharing our talk and peopleare going, Yeah, that's right.
And that's empowering.
So I think with the advent of thecomputer and the internet, there's so
much wrong with it too, but yet, it isgiving some life saving, in a degree,
(42:23):
harmonious balance to discussion.
And I really think that iswhat's needed, is communication.
Because that's really how we fix things,is we communicate the problem and then we
can communicate a way to fix the problem.
(42:44):
So I really do think you justhighlighted a big thing there.
The tipping point surely musthave been that availability of the
internet to reach out to others.
Because we can see morethan ever, I'm not alone.
(43:07):
And I think it's reallyhuge what's being done here.
I like it a lot.
And that I will agree with.
Yeah, I agree with that becausethat's the one thing that, I mean,
I didn't even get on the internet orsocial, well, I should say internet,
I didn't get onto social media untilprobably 20, 21, I mean, it's very
(43:30):
recent, just the last couple of years.
But it's something that definitely,I don't think it's the cure all, but
I think it definitely helps to know.
Because I think we need to know thatit's not just us because that helps
us realize that it's not personal.
I mean, even though we've internalizedit as this is about me and who I
(43:50):
am, and, and I have no place, andI'm deficient and I'm not enough.
When we see, Oh, there's a wholegroup called, you know, Daughters of
Narcissistic Mothers and Daughters ofNarcissistic Fathers and, and there's
thousands of people in this group.
Oh, I'm not alone.
And people are sharing, youknow, snippets of their story.
(44:10):
And you're like, Oh my gosh, me too.
That happened to me.
Oh, but you know, this iswhat helped me work that out.
Or this is what I do.
And that's, and so to have that support,definitely, definitely helps you.
Because it's essentially, that'shelping create that connection that
you didn't have early in childhoodthat, that made you feel this way.
(44:32):
That's right.
It's a good catalyst, that's for sure.
Dana, we could talk for hourson this and, you know, it just
seems like we just got started.
However, our time is short.
Uh, would you please let peopleknow where they can find your book?
(44:52):
And do you have a callto action for people?
Yes, absolutely.
Number one, my website, danasdiaz.com,you will find the links for
both books, Gasping for Air andChoking on Shame on the website.
Links to Facebook, links to Instagram, youcan email me, message me on social media.
I respond personally, I don'thave any automated message.
(45:16):
So, you know, you will get a responseactually from me and I'm happy to
hear from people, whatever it is.
And if I can't help you, I willdirect you to whatever resources that
I think might be able to help you.
Um, call to action.
I would just, this is allI ever ask from anybody.
And it sounds so like, you know,like I want everyone to get
(45:38):
in a circle and sing Kumbaya.
But all I ever ask for people is justbe kind and, you know, it's asking
you to have this domino effect.
Just start in your home.
If you have a roommate, a spouse, akid, whoever you're living with, be
kind, give them grace, give yourselfthat same grace and that same kindness.
(46:02):
And I think if we can just start therewith that small little piece, then
maybe we're going to go out in the worldand spread it like that domino effect.
Because I mean, sometimes thatreally nasty, angry person, that
person that's just obstinate andrude, you know, I, I hate to say,
but sometimes they just need a hug.
(46:22):
Sometimes maybe they're like me,maybe just nobody loved them.
They may be a narcissist,but you know what?
You have nothing to loseby being kind, it's free.
Doesn't cost you anything, little effort.
So just be kind, please.
I love it.
Dana, you're a very powerful individualout there doing incredible work.
(46:43):
I want to say thank you for comingback, sharing it again here on
the Dead America Podcast with us.
I appreciate it.
Thank you again for having me back.
Thank you for joining us today.
If you found this podcast enlightening,entertaining, educational in any way,
(47:04):
please share, like, subscribe, and joinus right back here next week for another
great episode of the Dead America Podcast.
I'm Ed Watters, your host, enjoyyour afternoon wherever you might be.
To overcome, you must educate.
Educate not only yourself, buteducate anyone seeking to learn.
We are all Dead America,we can all learn something.
To learn, we must challengewhat we already understand.
(00:27):
The way we do that isthrough conversation.
Sometimes we have conversations withothers, however, some of the best
conversations happen with ourselves.
Reach out and challenge yourself; let'sdive in and learn something new right now.
(00:55):
Today we're speaking with Dana S. Diaz,she's a returning guest to the podcast.
Her new book, Choking on Shame, TheScapegoat Child in a Narcissistic Family.
Dana, could you please introduceyourself and let people know a
little more about you, please?
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, I was, as you said, a guestbefore with my book Gasping for
(01:19):
Air, which talked about my formermarriage, um, which, in which I was
married to an abusive narcissist.
And the abuse, living that fightor flight mode for so long actually
made me autoimmune and gave me a lungdisease, kind of reaffirming that, that
cliche that stress really can kill you.
But after that book came out, a lotof people were asking, Well, we're
(01:42):
meeting you, we're seeing you, we'rehearing you, you know, in interviews,
you seem like an independentminded, um, strong willed, educated
woman, like how could you end upbeing in this situation where you
were submitting to this man whoclearly didn't know what he had?
And, you know, it didn't take me but asecond to say, Well, it was my childhood.
(02:05):
I mean, isn't that, I mean, I hate tobe cliche in that way and blame the
parents, but the reality is, is that weare kind of hardwired by the time we're
six or seven years old as to who weare and what our place is in the world.
And how to relate with other peopleand roles and all these things that
we absorb, even though people don'trealize we're taking, we don't even
(02:28):
realize we're taking in this information.
So, you know, we kind of went backwardswriting this prequel Choking on Shame,
which goes right into my personalstory of being born to a teenage
mother who didn't want me and Iwould argue didn't want any children.
But then how she went on to remainemotionally detached from me, allowed
(02:52):
the man she ended up marrying toabuse me, um, and how that basically
set me up on the wrong path for life.
Yeah, it's a riveting tale onceyou dive into Dana's story.
But you know, it was really kind ofpiquing my interest and it was one of
my highlighted questions about why youstarted in the middle of the story.
(03:18):
Is there a reason for that oris it just by chance that you
went back to explain forward.
Honestly, I never meant towrite more than one book.
And when I originally set to writeanything, tell my story, so to
(03:38):
speak, I wrote the whole story.
But forty some years of very complex,emotional, and psychological, and physical
warfare basically, and, and unravelingall that so that people can really
understand the depths of it, um, it,we just couldn't do that in one book.
(04:02):
So we just put the one book out there.
We focused on the one relationship,you know, a romantic relationship
with a narcissist and how thatobviously went very wrong.
Um, started off bad, ended up withdomestic violence even after the
divorce, um, as we discussed last time.
So this time, like I said, it wasmore in response to readers because
(04:25):
a lot of people do reach out tome and I'm thankful for that.
You know, that they read Gasping for Airand they said, I have the strength now.
Thank you.
You know, I'm going to leave myrelationship or I just ended my
relationship because I realized,you know, that I deserve
better too, and all this stuff.
But there were still thosequestions, people are always
seeking to understand the reasons.
(04:48):
Why did they do this to me?
Why did I succumb to it?
What made me vulnerable to it?
And my answer, I'm not a doctor, I'mnot a therapist and, you know, I could
sit and give reasons to every individualperson, but the best way to do anything
was just to tell my experience.
(05:08):
And my experience was that Iwas basically primed for it.
I was raised to think that I wasnothing and that I would never be
an, I was actually told directly as achild that nobody would ever love me.
Nobody ever wanted me, you know,it was the typical, I would never
be enough, that whole thing.
And it's such a pitying thing.
(05:30):
But what's even sadder is that astenacious as I was, even as a child,
and stood up for myself, and I would,I would shout back and say, No, I'm
good, I'm, I'm, somebody's gonna loveme, you know, I would fight it, but
I was still making it mean somethingabout me at the end of the day.
(05:53):
And it made me feel deficient.
And I went out in the world and the firstguy I found that gave me the slightest
bit of attention, I just glommed onbecause I was looking for that love and
affection that I hadn't gotten at home.
I was that kid that didn't get hugged orsoothed, you know, I was always a bother.
(06:13):
If I scraped my knee, if I wascrying about something, I needed
to stop feeling anything, I wasn'tallowed to have emotions, you know?
So we tell of all this because I don'tthink people realize when they think about
child abuse or any abuse, even in adultrelationships, you think abuse, you think
a woman, you know, walking around witha black eye or a kid walking around, you
(06:37):
know, with being banged up and bruised.
We don't understand that that'ssuch a small part of abuse.
I mean, as of last year, the Children'sAlliance here in the U. S. said that
only eighteen percent, I mean, only, it'sstill too much, but eighteen percent of
child abuse cases last year were physical.
(06:59):
Just 18%.
You know, even less of apercentage were sexual.
Thank God, because I think that'sprobably the worst, honestly.
Um, but most of it, most of itdeals with the psychological stuff.
The neglect, emotional neglect, becauseneglect, people think it's just,
(07:20):
Oh, you're not feeding your child.
You're not providing them.
But we all have needs and part of thatis the need to belong, the need to
feel secure, the need to feel safe.
And yes, we need air to breatheand we need food for nourishment
to survive and water and such.
But there's this element thatemotional neglect is huge.
(07:44):
Because, I mean, look at wherewe are now, September is Suicide
Awareness Month worldwide.
Why do people kill themselves?
Because they're lonely and they arealone with that pain of that loneliness.
It's not because they wantto die, I guarantee you.
It's not because they want to die,they just want the pain to stop.
(08:04):
But where does that pain originate?
Where does that loneliness originate?
In childhood.
And it's in these neglect casesthat take up way too much.
And, and, and you know, people thinkit's among, you know, lower income
or, you know, minority, um, you know,and ethnic groups, but it's not.
(08:24):
By an astronomical percentage, this isprevalent more among Caucasian people.
Because if you look at, you know, andI'm just going off the top of my head,
but Asian cultures, Hispanic cultures,Indian cultures, all around the world,
people are more communal.
You know, grandma lives in the home,maybe aunts and uncles, and cousins,
(08:48):
and, and, and everybody gets raisedwithin that community of family.
And here in this country, you know,and forgive me, I mean, I'm white
too, but we have this thing aboutindependence and, you know, all this
self and me, me, me, we lose ourselvesin that because we are not connecting.
(09:08):
I mean, it's a basichuman need to connect.
And when we're not getting thatconnection, I mean, for me, I had zero
connection with my mother, my stepfatherdidn't even want to try to connect
with me, I was alone as a little girl.
And thank God I'm still standing hereand, and I'm getting better every day.
But I mean, it's a life, these arelifelong damaging things that you're
(09:32):
constantly looking for love and itcreates that codependency and these
people pleasing habits and all this stuffthat ends us up in toxic relationships
where we're disappointed all overagain, you know, for a million reasons.
But, um, this is something thatdefinitely needs attention.
I think if we could make people more awareof it, then, maybe we can't change the
(09:54):
world, but we can maybe change how a fewpeople interact with their kids at home.
You know, like, get off your damn phone,stop scrolling through social media,
when your child comes to you, justlook at them, give them your attention.
Put the phones down at dinner,turn the TV off, talk to your kids.
(10:16):
Then maybe your kids will cometo you and want to talk with you.
I mean, when was the last time, Irarely see a parent outside tossing or
kicking a ball around with their kid.
Like, we need to start creating thatconnection again and stop with the social
stuff and stop with this electronic crap.
(10:36):
Because your kid does not need tobe raised by Spongebob or whoever.
Like, we just really needto get people to wake up.
Yeah, I agree 100 percent with that Dana.
You're getting good at this.
Uh, I just want to compliment you on that.
Yeah, you know, a lot of people, theyget nervous when they start touting the
(11:01):
numbers, but you're really good at that.
And I appreciate that you broughtthat awareness into what we're doing
because that's truly what we'reabout is highlighting these abuses.
And we're getting betterourselves at doing this.
My wife, you know, she was told thesame thing, You'll never find anybody.
(11:24):
You're not worth anything.
And I can tell you, as awitness, what devastating
consequences that has long term.
And it's, it's such a shamebecause my wife is beautiful.
She's one of the bestpersons on this planet.
And I don't understand how her fatheror her mother could let this happen.
(11:52):
But how could they even conclude that?
It's really shameful in many ways.
And that really is what youhighlight, that narcissistic,
uh, disease in our culture.
And, and I really appreciate that you'retaking the time doing these things.
(12:16):
What has been the most educational thingthat you've learned since you've started
podcasting about narcissistic behaviors.
Wow.
I mean, I think it's interesting,you know, I'm going to say this,
I don't know if it's educational,but it's something that I learned.
(12:39):
In the middle of a podcast interview,as a matter of fact, because this is
the first thing that came to mind whenyou asked that question, you know, I
got chills when you said that aboutyour wife, because I'm forty-eight
years old and I'm still dealing with it.
Getting better, improving, but my God,it just never, that nagging feeling,
(13:03):
that repeat of those words in yourmind when something triggers that.
And, and I feel badly for my husband,because I'm remarried, and my husband
is so sweet, and so gentle, and soamazing, and so understanding, even
though he has no clue what this is like.
Because he grew up in a tight knit,close, you know, very nice family.
(13:24):
But he's so patient with me, thank God.
But, you know, I was on this podcastand I was telling this story, you know,
about how I was, you know, born to mymother and she was a teenager and she
didn't want me and how I, right aftermy birth, I mean, immediately after
my birth, she didn't even hold me.
(13:46):
I was told, obviously I didn'tremember, I was just born, but she had
her tubes tied right then and there.
Right then and there.
Which tells me she didn't want anychildren, I was kind of cramping her
style because she had plans for herlife and I wasn't part of that plan.
But I remember the podcast host saying
(14:08):
that she kind of felt sorry for my mother.
And at first I was, I mean, you couldsee my body here, I'm like, what?
Like, I'm like appalled.
Like, I'm the victim here.
Like, I am the one that'shad to deal with this.
But I realized in that moment thatthat was my ego being insulted.
(14:29):
Because when I actually gotoff that podcast and thought
about it, I'm like, Man.
You know, I mean, I am fully aware
that what happened in my childhood, and Italk about that in my book, you know, my
mother grew up in an abusive home as well.
She had, do you want totalk about a narcissist?
Her father was a drunknarcissist, put a gun to her head.
(14:52):
Like, she endured horrors that nochild should ever have to endure.
And then the man she ended upmarrying, well, he was literally,
both parents abandoned him andhis siblings when he was a baby.
They were, grew up in fostercare where he was abused.
So like, I get it.
I understand, but that does not excuse it.
(15:14):
Because they still madea choice to abuse me.
And having been abused, Imean, I didn't abuse my son.
I made that choice.
But going back to that feeling sorryfor my mom, I realized in that after
I got over myself, you know, andmy own insult about that comment,
(15:37):
I realized that, you know what?
We're all living a human experienceand who am I to say that my mother
at sixteen years old or seventeenyears old should have known better
or should have been more aware tohave made a choice to raise me right?
Because I thought, Oh my gosh,I guess I feel bad for her too.
(16:01):
Because I started thinking when I'm,you know, sixteen, seventeen years old,
my God, you know, the biggest decisionI had was like, what was I going to
wear that day and change ten times.
Like, life should be that petty andsimple and ridiculous, not, Oh my gosh,
I have now this baby and I'm living inan abusive home where my drunk narcissist
(16:25):
father is slinging stuff around andbringing women home every night that
my mother has to walk into, you know,the living room and see him having sex
with, that was the life she was living.
And so taking a step back from myselfand looking at it objectively, I'm like,
Man, I guess I do feel sorry for her too.
Because, you know, we always say theydid the best they could, but we can't
(16:48):
assume that everybody opens theireyes and says, Oh, I have to heal
from all of this trauma so that Ican be the best parent that I can be.
I mean, it takes people sometimestill their thirties, or forties,
fifties, sixties, seventies to do that.
How is she going to do that at sixteen?
You know, so that was probably the biggestlesson that I've learned in all this.
(17:11):
And I was so grateful tothat podcast host, you know?
You know, like I said, onceI got over the offense.
But it was a lesson for myselftoo, because that's exactly where
narcissism comes from is the ego.
And we all have it andwe all operate in it.
You know, when we feel offended, when wefeel hurt, all insulted, that's our ego.
(17:34):
And, and I think that that's whatmade me realize that, you know what?
I can let go of this.
You know, I don't want to say I everhated my mother, but I think I resented
her tremendously for letting me grow upthat way and letting all that stuff happen
(17:56):
to me and, and her participation in it.
But I think that helpedme to release that.
You know, a good portion of it andrealize that she was living life,
she was dealing with things thebest that she knew at that age.
She was just a baby herself and she didn'tknow what to do with me coming along.
(18:17):
Now being a baby in her care.
So it's eyeopening when you realize it.
And certainly I don't want tobe a narcissist and we all have
narcissistic tendencies at times,you know, where we feel those
things and our ego doesn't like it.
But I think if we can be aware ofit and move forward and move out of
it, then that's where we'll be okay.
(18:38):
And where we'll have room for thatempathy that we need to have for others
to make the world a better place.
Yeah, that's true.
I like that a lot.
And that is a good lesson because alot of us overlook that simple fact.
I, I often talk to my wife about this.
What did our family go through before wewere even born that made them do this.
(19:03):
And, and if we learn to empathize withthat a little bit, our own troubles
tend to lessen just a wee bit.
Not, not everything, becauselike you said, it's a, lifelong
thing, and we always feel it.
I, I've been through abuse myselfand I can tell you even men that want
(19:26):
to pretend that they're tough andthey, they appear nothing shocks or
influences them, it does in many ways.
And that behavior, it, it reallyinduces this type of narcissistic
behavior towards other people.
Yeah, I agree with that.
(19:47):
I think that comes out of an angerbecause you're repressing everything
and, and you know, eventually it'sgoing to just erupt out of you.
Yeah, I agree a lot.
And through discovery walking thispath of healing, because it takes
a long time, my wife and I arereally starting to grow together
(20:12):
now instead of just being together.
And there's a big difference.
You know, I love my wife andit took everything I had to
really look deep inside myself.
Because I was a shameful guy, I camefrom dirt that was just stinky mud.
(20:36):
And to clean it up, that'sa choice, like you said.
And this is what we have to remember, ifyou continue your walk, it's by choice.
It's not an excuse.
And a lot of people need to rememberthat and understand all you're
(20:59):
doing is making it an excuse.
There's always reasons wedon't want to do something.
And generally, it's because that shame andguilt that we feel from our own actions.
Wouldn't you agree?
I agree a hundred percent.
And I think that also there'sthis misconception about healing.
(21:22):
You know, I, I used to always getannoyed when people would say,
cause it's a common thing, peoplesay, Oh, let it go, let it go.
And I, I remember getting frustrated withpeople when they kept saying that to me.
And I would say, It's not likeI'm trying to hold on to this.
I don't want that, who the hell wantsto live with this stuff in their head?
(21:42):
But at the same time,I'll be honest with you.
And this has been my journey of selfawareness and self discovery was
that as much as I didn't want to livelike that, and as much as I did want
to let go, I was holding on to it.
I was holding on to it.
You know, I, I told somebody recentlythat it's like, it's like I was thrown
(22:04):
off a cliff and I'm hanging on to arope and, and, and somebody you know, it
could be any number of the people thatabused me, just as willing to cut, cut
that rope and let me fall to my death.
You know, yet I'm the one that putmyself, I went to the cliff with them.
I was still holding onto that rope.
(22:26):
I didn't have to be there, I didn'thave to put myself in that circumstance.
So I was, I was making a choiceto hold on to that and to
imprison myself in the past.
And as long as I was imprisoningmyself in the past, I could not let
in the blessings of now, the present.
The future.
I couldn't be happy.
Like that's a common thingand I, something I struggled
(22:48):
with is, why can't I be happy?
Like life is good now,why can't I be happy?
Because I haven't settled the stuffof the past, I haven't resolved my
anger and resentment and all that otherstuff to be able to remove that, that,
that crap from my heart, basically.
I know that's not a nice word, but,um, the only one that came to mind.
(23:12):
But once you can remove that muck fromyour heart, then you have room for the
joy and the happy and all that good stuff.
But we just don't know.
And, and honestly, in my defense,having grown up in that childhood and
then spending twenty-five years with anabusive husband in a marriage, honestly,
I think I was so used to the chaos thatI had just forgotten how to just be.
(23:39):
And how to just be happy and howto even let myself feel happiness.
Because I was afraid to.
I was like, The bomb's gonnadrop, I can't trust this.
This is not what it really, you know,this isn't what it appears to be.
Whether it's a person, a situation,I can't let my guard down.
Can't smile, can't laugh, can't do anyof that because I got to be on guard.
(24:03):
I have to be vigilant.
Well, you know, at some point I, Ihad to make the decision and, and, and
tell myself, Lay the sword down, honey.
Lay the damn sword down.
We don't have to fight anymore,there's nobody to fight.
You know, and it takes a long timeand I'm sure your wife can relate,
(24:24):
it takes a long time for you toconvince your mind that you're okay.
And then your body takeseven longer sometimes.
That, that nervous system that, thatserves basically as, as an inner alarm
for us, you know, to know if we'rein danger or not, it takes it a long
time to trust how things are now andto settle and to know you're okay.
(24:48):
And, but it has to start in your mind.
There is a true mind and body connectionand we have to make the choice.
And now what, what frustrates menow is when people reach out to me,
and I, I feel it, like they say,I want to, I want to let it go.
I want to move past it, I want to heal.
I want it to, whatever it is.
But they don't.
(25:09):
Because you give them, you can hand themon a silver platter, here's what you
need to do, or here's what worked for me.
And those, Oh, that won't work for me.
Oh, I can't do that.
There's no such thing as can'tand that's a whole other lecture.
It is a choice though.
You can, you know?
I used to coach cross country and Iused to tell the kids, No, you can't
(25:29):
run ten miles today, but you can maybein the future, if you start practicing
and taking the steps towards it.
But you're never going to get anywhere,you can't if you decide you're not to.
If you say that to yourself, you won't.
So we need to start talking to ourselvesin a kinder way, we need to start
(25:51):
reminding ourselves of our worth.
You know, instead oflooking for it externally.
And we need to start really justkind of nurturing ourselves when
we didn't have that parent or,or, God forbid, in my case, both
parents to nurture you in that way.
You kind of grow up and findyourself in your forties, you know,
kind of being your own parent andtrying to nurture that, that stuff
(26:14):
inside you that needs to feel okay.
So that you can live the rest of your lifehaving some, some peace, if nothing else.
Yeah.
Well, there's no manual for any of this.
And, and, you know, it's very interesting,my wife went through physical and sexual
abuse and your book opens up with this.
(26:38):
It's, it's the same, same thing.
You know, your father or stepfather,excuse me, he, he basically doesn't
realize he's dealing with a child.
You know, going to a TVset and clicking a TV knob.
(27:00):
I used to do that constantlybecause I was trying to figure
out what made it work, you know?
So
Yeah, I just liked the clicking sound.
And I was, yeah, you're a littlekid, you're just messing around.
But yeah, they, they, it's very sadto me that a grown man, though, can
(27:20):
feel that, that need, that insatiableneed to harm a little tiny child.
So that they can havetheir peace, I suppose.
But yeah, it's hard.
It's hard.
And you know, when I grew up, whenI got to be a teenager and got to be
(27:43):
the same size, I was bigger and I wasangrier, I got pretty damn angry by the
time I was fifteen, sixteen you know?
But to have your own mother put herhands around your neck and, and to
black out and think you're gonna,you're, you know, I remember thinking,
my, my mother's going to kill me.
I'm, my life is over right now, youknow, and, and that's a horrible thing.
(28:05):
And it's hard to get past that.
Because, you know, I always joke,but it's not funny, like, you know,
I know Charles Manson was an orphan,but you know, like Jeffrey Dahmer, I'm
thinking of like serial killers, likedid horrific things, chopping people
up and hiding them in his freezer.
You know, dozens of people.
Yet his mother was still sitting behindhim in court, that was still her son.
(28:28):
She acknowledged he did wrong, butshe still loved her son and was there.
And I'm thinking, my God, I was likethe ultimate people pleasing child.
Like I, I strove for perfection.
I strove to do everything exactlyright, I was a straight arrow.
You know, good kid, good grades, nevergot in trouble, never smoked, never drank,
(28:50):
like why?
I just wanted to be seen, Ijust wanted to be acknowledged
and there was just nothing.
I could, and so that, that's a hard thing.
I mean, I watched my barn catsreject some kittens sometimes.
But my God, when it's your mother,like, how can you, how can you
believe anybody ever would loveyou if your own mother can't?
(29:12):
Because she's the one person who'ssupposed to when nobody else does.
And that's a tough one.
Yeah.
So, so, you know, it's very interesting.
We talk about generationalcurses and traumas.
That choice to change, you know,that, that is really heavy.
(29:35):
And I'm still trying to pinpoint whatmakes us change and choose to not
follow that generational guidance.
Because I think this really deep andwe need to really kind of pinpoint
the why and what makes the individualchoose to go in a different direction.
(30:00):
Yeah, that's interesting becauseI don't have the answer to that.
I can only speak to my experienceand what, what was different for me.
I think two things.
One of the biggest things wasthat we have to acknowledge the
fact that society progresses.
Because I'm generation X and I'venoticed that the baby boomer generation,
(30:26):
which is the one that came beforemine, baby boomers and older tend to
have come from that hush hush politesociety where you don't talk about it.
I mean
women in the thirties, forties,and fifties, and sixties were
being, you know, abused by husbands.
You know, they putconcealer over their eyes
and they hid, you know,
(30:47):
they had the nice wavy curls, you know,those fancy hairdos, and they kept their
head down when they went to the grocerystore and nobody asked and nobody told
and it just was whatit was, same with kids.
But we also had that, you know, wedidn't have electronics back, you
know, even when I was a kid that ifsomebody had an issue with you, they
(31:09):
beat your butt on the school playground.
They beat your butt on your lawn outsideyour house, they came knocking on your
door looking for you and grabbed youby the cuff of your shirt, drug you
outside and beat the crap out of you.
And nobody's parent was stopping it.
And nobody, you know, you had ablack eye, you had some bruises
and that's just how it was.
(31:29):
And you took it because youknew you probably, you know, had
done something to deserve it.
That's just how life was.
So I think to some extent,there was an acceptance.
And you add on to that, I mean, thisis, I'm tying in spousal abuse and
(31:49):
child abuse because it is, it kindof does go hand in hand, obviously.
Um, but even as recent as the seventieswhen I was born, a woman in the
United States of America, all thesefreedoms we talk about now, a woman
could not file charges against herhusband for domestic abuse or violence.
(32:12):
Oh my gosh.
And you know, the thing is, isthat men get abused by women too.
But a man back then would oh, therewas too much pride in being a man.
A man would never even admitthat his wife was abusing.
So you have to remember that now that,I hate to say, I go back to the social
stuff, social media, the internet, really,
(32:36):
when did it come out?
1995 I think was the first time theinternet was available to everybody, and
now that there's all this informationand people are connecting and things are
being exposed, there, I think everything'skind of being blown open to where we
don't have to keep secrets anymore.
So I think that's partiallywhy we are more vocal about it
(33:01):
and we're more, you know, we'rebringing more awareness to things.
And thank goodness, because nobodyshould have to hide that stuff.
And I think I should have a rightas a child, or as a wife, or if
it were a husband, or whatever itis, to go to somebody and say this
is happening and it needs to stop.
And that's where we're stillstruggling in this society.
(33:23):
Because you know they say seventysome percent of child abuse cases
are actually reported by teachers.
And that bothers me because youcannot tell me that if there's a
two parent household or even morethan one child in a household that
they don't know what's going on.
(33:44):
And you can't tell me the neighborisn't seeing it, or the bus driver
on the school bus, or the peopleat church, or at the library, or
wherever else this kid is going.
And it just pains me, it painsme because I was that kid.
I was that kid that also went to schoolwith my head down, wearing long sleeves
(34:06):
when it was hot in the summer to hidethe marks on my arms and, and on my legs.
And, and I wanted somebody to see, andon the very rare occasions, somebody
would say, Is there something going on?
Nope, nothing's, because I was terrified.
But we need people to be more involved.
And, and, you know, not necessarilypush the child more to expose it,
(34:28):
but maybe bring more attention to it.
You know, there has to be consequences.
Because I look back at my situation andgranted I haven't, I'm not really fully
aware of how child services works inmy area, nevermind all areas of this
country, but in the nineties when theycame into my life and I had a round
(34:50):
with them, they didn't do a whole lot.
They didn't do crap, honestly.
They interviewed my, my mother andstepfather's employees at their business
who said they were these great, greatpeople who would never do that to me.
Well, they wanted theirjobs, my goodness gracious.
I mean, ask somebody else,because let me tell you something,
(35:14):
child services didn't do anything.
And they left my brother,my little brother.
Cause my mother did end up reversingher tubal ligation and having a child
with my stepfather because I wasn't his.
He made that so blatantly a bigpart of my childhood that I wasn't
his, he wanted his own child.
So they ended up having a child.
(35:34):
But even when I was under investigationall of this stuff, they left
my little brother in the home.
And it just made me remember that book,I don't know if anyone has read this,
it's called A Child Called It.
I think David Pelzer is the author.
This came out back in the nineties.
But he was one of five children,one of the worst cases of
(35:55):
abuse in California history.
And he was the only one abused in thathouse by the mother and severely abused.
The other kids noticed it, wouldeven leave the room, sometimes even
participate as far as helping themother prepare or arrange for it.
And the husband, thefather, was in the home.
(36:16):
And also the one thing that startled me inthat book was, one of the times that the,
you know, the, the author was saying he,he, he knew he was about to get abused.
You know, his mother would tellhim, Okay, this is happening now.
And I mean, she was like puttingan iron on him and burning him, and
putting his hands on open flames onthe, just doing horrific things to him.
(36:41):
And the dad was like, Okay, I'mgoing to take the other kids, the
other four kids out for ice cream.
Like, are you kidding me right now?
He knew that his wife was about to abuse.
But this is, this is the thing,granted that that's, you know,
there are these extraordinarily,you know, exceptional stories.
(37:01):
And, and mine is certainlynot one of those.
But the fact that this happens everysingle day and nobody, even the people
in the home, don't do anything about it.
Because I'm going to tell you something.
When my book came out, um, itwas released a little early.
So I got a phone call, said unknownnumber, and when I answered, I
(37:26):
recognized the voice, but you knowhow you can't quite place it, and
she said, Do you know who this is?
And I was like, I felt embarrassed,you know, like, I'm like,
I should know who this is.
But I didn't know who it was.
Anyway, she, she told me who she was.
It was somebody that, shewas an adult in my life.
So she cut my hair.
(37:47):
She was my hairdresser, I guess youwould say, when I was a little girl
from the time I was probably five orsix all the way up through college.
And I mean, this is a hairdresser.
How often did I see her?
A few times a year?
She says, I'm so glad to hear your voice.
She says, I saw your book.
(38:08):
A friend of mine told me you releasedthis book, and she said, You know,
I didn't know your stepfather.
I only saw your mother whenshe would bring you in.
But she says, Your motherwas always so melancholy.
Like I knew there was something goingon and I can tell looking at you every
time there was something going on.
And she said, I always thought I wouldlook at the news and see that he had
(38:34):
killed you and your mother, like in somekind of like family murder, suicide thing.
And just leave your bodiesat the side of the road dead.
So she says, I'm so glad you're okay.
And I mean, it was touching thatshe got in touch with me and
I was glad to hear from her.
But, again, it reiterated that, thisfrustration I have that if somebody
(38:57):
even remotely thought, I mean, whydidn't you err on the side of caution?
Why didn't you alert somebody?
Why didn't you pull me asideand ask me what was going on?
Why am I forty-eight years old andjust now hearing that somebody that
last saw me thirty years ago istelling me she's glad I'm alive.
(39:18):
And, and, and we have, you know,we have communicated since.
And I don't hold anybody responsiblebecause at the end of the day, the
responsible party is the abuser.
But going back to child services,I just want to say one more thing.
And this is what reallymakes me angry about this.
And what really needs to still changein society is that, what do they do?
(39:41):
They took me out of the home temporarily.
Granted I got sent back, but theytake the child out of the home.
Sometimes in the more severe cases orwhen they actually do their job and see
that this child needs help, the childgets whatever services, counseling,
therapy, whatever treatments they need.
(40:03):
Thank God.
But what about the abusers?
Why aren't they beingremoved from the home?
Why aren't they getting thetreatment that they need?
Why aren't they being forced, I'msorry, healing should be a choice,
and it's a lot of work, but why aren'tthey attempting to rehabilitate the
(40:25):
people that are doing these things?
Because until we go, you know, youcan't just put a bandaid on something,
you have to go to the core of it.
That's what healing iswhen we're trying to heal.
But I can heal all day long,but you want to know something?
My mother and I are estranged.
My stepfather, he doesn't talkto me either, and I don't really
care about him, but there's nohealing going on in their house.
(40:49):
Nobody has gone to therapyto face their trauma.
They are going through the samemotions every day like nothing is
wrong, refusing to face it, andprojecting it on to other people.
Me, mainly, because I'm the scapegoat.
Even though we have no contact, I'mstill being talked about, lied about, and
(41:11):
scapegoated as the reason for all of theirproblems and all of their angst and woes.
And I think that is themost ridiculous thing.
We have to catch up, we have to starttaking these parents out of the homes.
Stop with trying to fix the kid becausethere's nothing wrong with the kid,
there's something wrong with the parent.
(41:33):
Yeah.
Yeah, there's big problems and issueswith the whole system, how we handle this.
And, you know, the, the big thing here,Dana, I think you really highlighted
is, awareness is being brought sincethe introduction of the internet.
And there's more people like meand you sitting, talking, and
(41:57):
then sharing our talk and peopleare going, Yeah, that's right.
And that's empowering.
So I think with the advent of thecomputer and the internet, there's so
much wrong with it too, but yet, it isgiving some life saving, in a degree,
(42:23):
harmonious balance to discussion.
And I really think that iswhat's needed, is communication.
Because that's really how we fix things,is we communicate the problem and then we
can communicate a way to fix the problem.
(42:44):
So I really do think you justhighlighted a big thing there.
The tipping point surely musthave been that availability of the
internet to reach out to others.
Because we can see morethan ever, I'm not alone.
(43:07):
And I think it's reallyhuge what's being done here.
I like it a lot.
And that I will agree with.
Yeah, I agree with that becausethat's the one thing that, I mean,
I didn't even get on the internet orsocial, well, I should say internet,
I didn't get onto social media untilprobably 20, 21, I mean, it's very
(43:30):
recent, just the last couple of years.
But it's something that definitely,I don't think it's the cure all, but
I think it definitely helps to know.
Because I think we need to know thatit's not just us because that helps
us realize that it's not personal.
I mean, even though we've internalizedit as this is about me and who I
(43:50):
am, and, and I have no place, andI'm deficient and I'm not enough.
When we see, Oh, there's a wholegroup called, you know, Daughters of
Narcissistic Mothers and Daughters ofNarcissistic Fathers and, and there's
thousands of people in this group.
Oh, I'm not alone.
And people are sharing, youknow, snippets of their story.
(44:10):
And you're like, Oh my gosh, me too.
That happened to me.
Oh, but you know, this iswhat helped me work that out.
Or this is what I do.
And that's, and so to have that support,definitely, definitely helps you.
Because it's essentially, that'shelping create that connection that
you didn't have early in childhoodthat, that made you feel this way.
(44:32):
That's right.
It's a good catalyst, that's for sure.
Dana, we could talk for hourson this and, you know, it just
seems like we just got started.
However, our time is short.
Uh, would you please let peopleknow where they can find your book?
(44:52):
And do you have a callto action for people?
Yes, absolutely.
Number one, my website, danasdiaz.com,you will find the links for
both books, Gasping for Air andChoking on Shame on the website.
Links to Facebook, links to Instagram, youcan email me, message me on social media.
I respond personally, I don'thave any automated message.
(45:16):
So, you know, you will get a responseactually from me and I'm happy to
hear from people, whatever it is.
And if I can't help you, I willdirect you to whatever resources that
I think might be able to help you.
Um, call to action.
I would just, this is allI ever ask from anybody.
And it sounds so like, you know,like I want everyone to get
(45:38):
in a circle and sing Kumbaya.
But all I ever ask for people is justbe kind and, you know, it's asking
you to have this domino effect.
Just start in your home.
If you have a roommate, a spouse, akid, whoever you're living with, be
kind, give them grace, give yourselfthat same grace and that same kindness.
(46:02):
And I think if we can just start therewith that small little piece, then
maybe we're going to go out in the worldand spread it like that domino effect.
Because I mean, sometimes thatreally nasty, angry person, that
person that's just obstinate andrude, you know, I, I hate to say,
but sometimes they just need a hug.
(46:22):
Sometimes maybe they're like me,maybe just nobody loved them.
They may be a narcissist,but you know what?
You have nothing to loseby being kind, it's free.
Doesn't cost you anything, little effort.
So just be kind, please.
I love it.
Dana, you're a very powerful individualout there doing incredible work.
(46:43):
I want to say thank you for comingback, sharing it again here on
the Dead America Podcast with us.
I appreciate it.
Thank you again for having me back.
Thank you for joining us today.
If you found this podcast enlightening,entertaining, educational in any way,
(47:04):
please share, like, subscribe, and joinus right back here next week for another
great episode of the Dead America Podcast.
I'm Ed Watters, your host, enjoyyour afternoon wherever you might be.
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