September 10, 2025 • 50 mins
In this deeply moving episode of the Dead America Podcast, host Ed Watters speaks with Susan Snow—trauma resilience coach, speaker, and author—about her powerful journey from personal tragedy to emotional healing and advocacy.
Susan recounts the devastating night in 1985 when her father, LAPD Detective Thomas C. Williams, was killed in the line of duty. The trauma of that event led her down a difficult path marked by PTSD, depression, and emotional isolation. Yet through courage, support, and a commitment to healing, Susan transformed her pain into purpose.
She shares how seeking the right help, embracing vulnerability, and building a strong support system allowed her to reclaim her life. Today, Susan empowers others facing trauma by offering guidance, hope, and practical tools for resilience. Her story is a testament to the human spirit’s ability to rise, heal, and inspire.
Listeners will gain insight into the emotional toll of sudden loss, the importance of mental health support, and how trauma can become a catalyst for transformation. Whether you're navigating grief, supporting a loved one, or seeking your own path to healing, this episode offers clarity, compassion, and strength.
00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction
01:22 Susan's Tragic Story
08:07 The Aftermath and Struggles
20:15 Journey to Healing
24:47 Support Systems and Family Dynamics
33:00 Becoming an Advocate
45:55 Final Thoughts and Contact Information
https://susansnowspeaks.com/
Social media links
IG- @susan_snow1
TT- @susansnow1
Linkedin- susan snow
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Because even though I went throughall of this work, I did all of that
work meant for my mental health.
You still get to a point in yourlife where you're like, okay, I'm
this person now what do I do with it?
And, and so that's where Icome into play, you know?
(00:54):
Today, we are speaking with Susan Snow.
Susan is a trauma resiliencecoach, a speaker, and an author.
She is also the daughter of a slain LosAngeles Police Department Detective,
Thomas C. Williams, who was killed inthe line of duty on October 31st, 1985.
(01:16):
Susan, could you pleaseintroduce yourself?
Let people know just a littlemore about you, please.
Sure, absolutely.
Uh, hi everyone.
Um, like he said, uh, I am the daughterof, uh, detective Tom Williams.
And, um, when I was seventeen,uh, he was a, a robbery/homicide
(01:43):
detective at the time.
And, um, I also had a six-year-old brotherand, uh, it was Halloween night and my dad
was, uh, a lead detective on a case thathe was testifying that morning in court.
(02:05):
And he and I chatted about it.
And, uh, I wanted to goto a party that night.
It was, I was seventeen, I was a teenager,I wanted to go out with my friends.
Uh, he said, Absolutelyno, it's a school night.
And so, you know, he just said,uh, When we come home, When I
come home, we'll talk about it.
(02:26):
But the plan was that he was gonnaleave court, go to my brother's school,
pick him up from school and come home.
Meanwhile, my mom and I would be home.
And so when I got home from school, I gotready for my night and my mom came home.
She was still in her costumefrom work, her work party.
(02:48):
And the phone rang.
And when it rang, I went and grabbedit 'cause I thought it was for me.
And it wasn't for me, it was alady from my brother's school.
All she said was that there was adrive-by shooting and my dad was involved.
My mom came around the corner and I sawher so I handed her the phone immediately.
(03:11):
And I watched her demeanorand I watched her posture.
And as she was talking to this lady,I could just tell that it was bad.
She got off the phone and shesaid, We're going to the school.
So, school was about sevenminutes from my childhood home.
We got there and the way that, uh,Faith Baptist is set up is there is
(03:36):
a parking lot right in the middle ofthe school and after school care got
out on the backside of the school.
So that's where we headed.
As we started heading there, um, itwas nighttime by now, and I could just
see the sky was lit up by all of the,uh, police cars lights, and then there
(03:59):
was an ambulance in the road as well.
So we were walking and then she and Iboth caught, uh, my, my dad's truck,
so we started to run towards the truck.
And when we got closer, we sawthat there was glass on the ground.
We rounded the corner, and there he waspartially covered up with a white sheet.
(04:24):
And at that moment I watched my mombuckle and she started screaming,
and my teenage mind was not ableto comprehend what I was seeing.
So what I ended up doing isfocusing on the ambulance.
(04:44):
And my brain kept saying, Why,why, why isn't anybody helping him?
Where is everybody?
What?
Why isn't he being helped?
Soon enough, two officers came up andgrabbed our arms and escorted us back into
the school where we went to an office andmy mom was taken aside by some detectives.
(05:07):
I sat in the office just tryingto comprehend what was happening
because there was so much chaosgoing on, and I still was not
comprehending what was happening.
I still was not comprehendingthat he was gone.
It wasn't until I heard two ladies talkingin the office, they worked there, and
(05:30):
the one lady said that, that, uh, Mr.
Williams was deceased.
And at that point, my lifeshattered, my world shattered.
And all I can think of is gettingup out of that chair and running
outta that room and running as faras I could from this nightmare.
(05:52):
But my legs and everything in my bodyfelt like cement, I couldn't move.
Wasn't very long after that,my mom came to me and she said,
I'm sending you with a neighbor.
And I know that in that momentI wanted to run out of there
and run away from the scene.
(06:12):
But the kid part of me wanted tobe with my family unit, I needed
to be with my mom and my brother.
At that point, I didn't evenknow where my brother was.
I didn't know if he washurt, I didn't know anything.
I had no information.
All I knew is I wasgoing with the neighbor.
And the neighbor picked me up, tookher to her house, took me to her house.
(06:36):
And, uh, she had known my parents foryears and she, herself as an adult,
was trying to comprehend everything.
And, uh, here she had, uh, hisdaughter who was totally inconsolable
at the point, at that point.
And she tried really hard tobe there for me and, you know,
(07:00):
console me the best that she could.
But I had been dating this boy forabout three months, and at that
point, all I wanted was my boyfriend.
So I asked her to call him at work.
And he, he was nineteen at the time.
And he showed up andhe had no information.
(07:22):
So when he showed up at the door,he said, Grab your purse, grab your
jacket, let's go to the hospital.
What hospital is he at?
Where's your mom?
Where's your brother?
You know, all the normal, uh,questions that you would get.
And, um, I couldn't spit itout, I couldn't say the words.
But the more persistent he got, themore I just blurted it out, He's gone.
(07:47):
And he said, What do you mean he's gone?
And I said, He's gone.
He's not at a hospital.
And at that point, I watched mynineteen-year-old boyfriend drop
to his knees and start sobbing.
And both of us were just tryingto navigate all of the things that
were going on in that very moment.
This was mid eighties.
(08:10):
So back then there was no talk of mentalhealth, there was little known about PTSD,
and there were no resources for kids.
Not even LAPD had systems in placefor children of fallen officers.
They really, um, focused on thewives, the widows, and the widowers.
(08:35):
And my poor neighbor had no ideawhat she was doing with us, you know,
she was just, she was trying to,um, work through her own emotions.
And like I said, it was very chaotic.
'Cause that night my quiet littleneighborhood was overwrought with police
(08:55):
cars and, um, we had helicopters overhead.
And the media ascended because it was a,it was a huge story at the, at that time.
So when I finally did go home, um,there were cars in my driveway that I
didn't recognize, and we had police,um, we had armed police officers who
(09:24):
were in our front yard and our backyard.
And I, I went in the house andmy house was filled with people,
I had no idea who they were.
I know now they were dignitaries and,uh, advocates and all kinds of people.
And I could hear my mom in thekitchen, um, faintly, I still
(09:48):
had no idea where my brother was.
And I, I literally justran in my room and hid.
I didn't wanna talk to anybody, Ididn't want any questions, uh, nothing.
And I had this feeling of, um, justwanting to hide, I just wanted to hide.
And the next day, uh, when Ilooked outside, 'cause I didn't
(10:14):
sleep, it was sunlight and westill had the police presence.
I finally got to see my brother, itwas about 11 o'clock in the morning.
And I had heard him crying in the middleof the night, so I knew he was okay
and at home 'cause I had heard him cry.
But at that time, Ihad nothing left in me.
(10:38):
I couldn't even get up outof my bed at that point.
So I figured my mom would console him.
And when I did finally get to see him,it was the first time I could hug him,
and tell him I loved him, and tell himthat we were gonna get through this.
Um, and so it, you know, itwas just going from a normal
(11:05):
teenage life to this, was crazy.
It was surreal.
They didn't catch the men that wereinvolved in my dad's murder for six days.
So we had police presence for sixdays and, um, I had bodyguards.
(11:25):
I mean, it was just nuts.
It was crazy, and Idon't wish it on anyone.
Um,
it wasn't too long after the funeral,everything kind of died down a little
bit, my mom came to me and said that LAPDwanted to pay for us to go to therapy.
(11:46):
Well, at the time I thought, If you goto a therapist, that means you're crazy.
Because that was just my,that was my young mind, and I
didn't know anything different.
But I was also living in alife where I was in fog, I was
like walking around in a fog.
I wasn't even living, I was existing.
(12:10):
And I was dealing with a lotof depression, and I was, I
had suicidal ideation, althoughI didn't know what it was.
Um, and I was very anxious 'cause mydad was my protector and now he's gone.
And at the time, uh, I didn't have areally solid relationship with my mother.
(12:35):
It, it was a little bit on the toxic side,so trying to navigate that relationship
as well with my dad not being there.
And so when my mom voluntold me that I wasgoing to therapy, I was like, All right.
I was kind of in that state of mindthat if you pushed me in a direction,
(12:57):
that's the direction I would go.
So I did go to therapyand I met the therapist.
And in hindsight, I don't believethat this therapist was ready
to get into the weeds with me.
I don't think that he wastrauma competent or informed for
(13:19):
that reason, for that manner.
And I was, um, I was really struggling,but at the same time, I was scared to
tell him what he was, what I was feeling,for the fear that he would lock me up.
You know, he'd send me to the looneybin and that would be it for me.
(13:42):
So I didn't say anything and I didn'tknow how to verbalize it anyways.
Um, he didn't, he didn't ask me, he didn'task me the questions of, you know, what I
was feeling or what that night did to me,
(14:03):
which blows people's mind.
But if he's a therapist that didn't wannaget in the weeds with me, I get that.
If he asks that question, then he'sin it and he better know how to
help me through it.
So for an entire year I saw this man.
(14:23):
And our sessions were reallycommon, they were very shallow.
It was all about my relationshipwith my mom, my relationship with
my brother, my boyfriend, and schoolsince I was a senior in high school.
And that was it.
(14:44):
And every week I was like, today's theday he's gonna help me feel better.
Today's the day.
And then I would leave andjust not feel any better.
In fact, sometimes I felt worse.
And after a year of this, he lookedat me and said, Susan, you're
a well-rounded young lady and Idon't need to see you anymore.
(15:06):
You're gonna be fine forthe rest of your life.
And I left that office andI was like, okay, that's it.
I've cracked, I'm crazy, noteven a professional can help me.
I'm gonna have to figurethis out on my own.
Which was terrifying because now I'monly, I'm still a, a kid, I'm eighteen.
(15:33):
And I just did what I did naturally,which is I created this emotional mask
based on what people told me I was.
So if someone said, Oh my gosh,you were so brave, you're so
strong, you're gonna be fine.
(15:54):
That was it, that was it.
And I wore that thing so well thatno one on the exterior knew the
turmoil that was going on, no one.
And not even my boyfriend kneweverything that was going on at the time.
I was scared to tell him because Ithought he would hightail it out of there.
(16:19):
And he really, at the time, wasthe only thing that I had that was
positive in my life besides, youknow, some of my close friends.
So I didn't tell him either.
And I lived like this.
I, I, I married him, we're stilltogether almost forty years later.
(16:43):
Um, so I married him and we had two kids.
And in 97 we decided it wastime to leave California.
I, I was ready to like, kind of putthat part of my life aside and go
somewhere where no one knew me, no oneknew the story, no one knew anything
(17:04):
and start over, quotations, start over.
Um, because little did I know thatyour pain and anguish and trauma goes
with you no matter where you are.
So geography didn't matter.
(17:26):
So we, we moved, uh, April of 97, and atthe time I was working as a hairdresser.
I was working in a salon thatwas close to Littleton, Colorado.
And on April 20th, of 1999, I wasworking that day, uh, I had taken a
break from, uh, my client and went intothe back room and turned on the TV.
(17:48):
We had a little tiny TV back there inour break room and up popped the live
coverage of the Columbine shootings.
I started having flashbacks, I turnedpale, I started sweating, I could feel an,
an anxiety attack coming, and I was reallyconfused, because remember, I was told I
(18:17):
was gonna be fine for the rest of my life.
So I didn't recognizewhat was happening to me.
And my colleagues did not know my story.
So when they saw me going throughall of this, they were confused.
And they're like, We don't get it.
You're, you're not old enoughto have kids there, we know you
don't live around that area.
What, what is happening to you?
(18:39):
And I couldn't answer it, I had no idea.
So what I did was, what I alwaysdid, I put that mask back on and
I went out and I finished my day.
Now everybody around me was so upset,crying, angry, I mean, you name it.
(18:59):
And I was just like, this isn't gonnaaffect me, I'm gonna finish my day, this
is gonna be fine and inside I was a mess.
But out exterior wise, no one saw it.
Nobody saw it.
The minute I walked through those doorsto get in my car, everything flooded back.
(19:21):
Everything.
And I felt like I was spiraling.
Um, I had suicidal ideation,I, I had plans in my head.
But at the same time, I hadthis like internal fight.
Because even though I didn't wanna feellike this anymore, I had two babies
(19:42):
at home and I need to stay for them.
And so, um, I didn't know what I wasgonna do and it wasn't until my husband
stopped me at the door, 'cause he's avery smart man, and he watched me spiral.
He saw it coming and he knewit was a slippery slope.
(20:05):
So he said, he told me, You havetwo choices, you either get help
or I'm putting you in a hospital.
And at that point I was so scaredthat I put up that white flag and I
was like, All right, I'll, I'll go tothe doctor, I'll, I'll get some help.
And I made an appointment thatafternoon to go see a physician, and
(20:27):
the physician put me on antidepressantsbecause that's what they do.
And then he handed me a businesscard and he said, I want you to make
an appointment with this therapist.
And I literally laughed in his facebecause I said, Look, I tried this
fourteen years ago and it didn't work, sowhat makes you think it's gonna work now.
(20:52):
And he said, You know, honestly,you don't have a choice.
And so I made the appointment, andthree minutes into the appointment,
I, I knew something was different.
She was asking me the questions.
And I felt safe withher, so I answered them.
(21:14):
I was allowing myself tobe vulnerable with her.
And she looked at me after she heard mystory and she said, Susan, everything
you've gone through since you wereseventeen is normal because you have PTSD.
And I was like, Wait aminute, I didn't go to war.
(21:38):
I'm not in the military,what do you mean I have PTSD?
And she said, Nope.
She said, Anyone who goes through anytype of trauma can experience PTSD.
But what you need to know about that isthat it's not something that goes away,
it's something you learn to manage.
(21:59):
And in that moment, I realized I hadhope for the first time that I had hope.
And that I had a person that I hadbeen yearning to have all these
years, someone to be able to listento me and guide me in the right way
(22:19):
so that I can heal from my trauma.
And I was so grateful inthat moment, so grateful.
So that was the beginningof my journey of healing.
It, it's, it's a veryfascinating story, Susan.
(22:39):
Um, I really wanna askthe first question here.
Did your family ever talk aboutwhat if, if this ever occurred,
before your father's passing?
Uh, did you ever sit down at the tableand say, Look, I have this dangerous
(23:02):
job, and at any time, tragedy couldstrike and we all need to be able
to open up and talk about this.
Was there ever that time in your family?
No.
You know, I, I kind of hada false sense of security.
(23:24):
Because when he became a detective, inmy mind, a detective comes in after.
So the, the, the, it's more of theprocessing, it's not being in the middle
of the crime or, you know, puttingyourself in harm's way in that way.
(23:44):
And so I felt like dad had a desk job,you know, how, how dangerous is that?
We didn't think aboutretaliation or anything like
that, and this is what it was.
And so, and it had never happened before,so it wasn't even in our stratosphere.
(24:06):
You know, we just didn'teven think about that.
I'm sure my mom and dad had, you know,conversations when he went into law
enforcement that this is a possibility.
But when it came to me, being asold as I was, and being able to
have those kind of conversations, Ijust felt like, you know, he had a
(24:33):
desk job, he came in after the fact.
You know, what harm could come to him?
So, yeah, it was never a conversationwith, especially with me and him.
So what was your supportsystem like before the incident
and then after the incident?
(24:54):
Was there ever any, you know,the thin blue line brotherhood?
They are supposed totake care of each other.
Was there support fromthem before and after?
And what was that like?
Um, you know, my dad was pretty closewith a lot of the guys that he worked
(25:17):
with, so they were kind of like family.
Um, the one thing I can say about mydad was he was a very present person.
So when you were with him, he alwaysmade you feel like you were the
most important person in the room.
And anyone who knew him, whether,you know, he worked with them,
or trained them, or whatever,will say the same thing.
(25:40):
And so there was always that feelingof, you know, if something had happened,
they would be there for his family.
But afterwards, yes,there was absolutely that.
They came, they did whatever theycould to help my mom around the house.
The following week, my brother hada birthday and he turned seven.
(26:03):
And so my mom and dad had boughthim a bike and they wanted, my dad
wanted to teach him how to ride hisbike, but he didn't get that chance.
So, um, there were about, I, I don'tknow, twenty detectives that showed
(26:23):
up at our door on his birthday andshowed my brother how to ride a bike.
Um, and they came around quite a bit,you know, there was a lot of police
officers that, even though theyweren't like in our face behind the
scenes, they would look out for us.
Um, my mom would have drive-bys allthe time where the, um, the guys that
(26:48):
were on duty would drive by the housejust to make sure she was okay and
nothing, you know, nothing was awry.
Um, and there was a lot of that going on.
I had no idea until much, much, like oneof 'em, I just realized, like I just got a
(27:10):
letter from his wife, he has since passed.
But, uh, his wife read my book andshe, um, she reached out to me by
email and told me that he always, hewas one of the officers that escorted
us into the office that night.
(27:32):
So he would always kind of keepan eye on my mom and my brother.
And, um, and, and that was reallybittersweet, um, especially
knowing that he is no longer here,and I didn't even know about it.
My mom knew about it,but she never told me.
(27:55):
Which is not a shocker.
Yeah, that's how it works.
So, you know, yeah.
Your, your brother was there when ithappened and, you know, your father kind
of told him to get down and get out of theway, so I'm sure he's, he's going through
(28:18):
a lot of the same and maybe a little more.
Uh, do you guys ever talk about whathappened and do you reminisce about it?
Uh, yeah.
I try not to.
And the reason is, I mean, he and Ihave talked about a lot of things.
(28:40):
Um, I didn't have a relationshipwith him for many years just
because at the time when he wasan adolescent into early teens, he
started getting into some trouble.
Um, and he was not making goodchoices, let's just put it that way.
And, uh, headed down the drug route.
(29:02):
My mom was a drinker and my dad,my brother was, uh, an addict.
And so, um, I kind of, and we'reten years apart, so I distance
myself a lot from that drama.
Um, but as he got older and I got to knowhim as an adult and he got to know me as
(29:28):
an adult, we were able to start healingour relationship about seven years ago.
And in that, we were, it was literallya comparison of, comparison of notes.
Um, which was healing, but at thesame time, it's like, the one thing
(29:49):
that he could tell me is that, at thetime of the incident, all the focus
went on to him and my, and my mother.
And, and, and of course it would, right?
But I got pushed aside.
Um, the media didn't evenrealize or recognize that he
had a daughter for two days.
(30:09):
And so I felt very pushedaside, very not important.
Um, and he knew that andrecognized that and had a lot
of shame and guilt around that.
So we were able to healthrough those conversations.
Um, and now we're very, very close.
And he's doing great and he is, youknow, he married the love of his life.
(30:36):
He has a daughter in California,he's a stepdad, he's now a papa
to two babies, and, um, you know,he's doing really, really well now.
He has visceral reactions, um,he has, it, it leads to, to some
(30:58):
physical issues that he has if webring up, if he gets overly stressed.
So I told him when I wrote the book,you can read this or you don't have to.
You can read it along with your therapist.
Um, I don't wanna put any more pressureon him and I definitely don't wanna
(31:20):
cause him any more health issues.
So, um, I just told him, youknow, when you're, when it's
time, if you wanna read it, great.
If you don't ever wannaread it, that's fine too.
I totally get it.
Um, so we, we have been able to, we'vebeen able to like talk about that night
(31:43):
and what he saw and um, and I was ableto kind of tell him that, you know, it
made me sad that he had so much shameand so much guilt about, even though
he was six years old, that there wasnothing he could do to help the situation.
(32:05):
There was nothing he could do.
But he lived with survivor'sguilt for a really long time.
And, and I, you know, he had to hearit from me that it was okay to have
those feelings and just make surethat he knew that that was valid.
(32:28):
You know, it was a valid emotion to have.
However, you know, I don't feel that way.
Uh, no one else feels that way, andso he needs to learn to let that go
so that he can move on with his life.
Yeah.
(32:48):
Well, anytime we deal with thesetraumatic experiences, especially as
children, because that's when it'smost traumatizing, uh, in my opinion.
Uh, so
there's, there's a lot of wayspeople can go, but you chose to start
(33:11):
speaking out and become an advocate.
What was that tipping point like and whydid you choose to start speaking out?
Well, for me, part of the reason I wrotemy book was, um, when you go through
(33:32):
something like that, that's very muchin, uh, you know, out there in the open
and people make up in their minds yourstory and a lot of times their story did
not align with who I was as a person.
(33:54):
And so when I turned fifty years old,there's something about fifty, I don't
know, but I drew a line in the sand.
I drew a line in the sand andI said, It has to happen now,
I have to write my book now.
And it took me four anda half years to write it.
(34:14):
I had to be in the right mental state inorder to do this, and I had to have the
tools to manage the emotions that wouldcome up throughout the writing process.
And I did, I, I felt confidentin knowing that I would be able
to pull myself out of whateveremotion that I was headed towards.
(34:38):
There was a lot of fear involvedin writing this book, as well,
for a couple of different reasons.
When I sat back and I realized whatkind of book I wanted to write, which
was a memoir, I knew that I neededto be a hundred percent authentic.
And in doing that, I had to tell,not only my story, but I had to
(34:59):
tell other people's stories as well.
And in doing that, I knew thatpart of those people would
be my mom and my, my husband.
And I, when I thought about it,it was scary because my mom and
(35:21):
I were hanging on by a thread.
You know, our relationship hasnever been healthy and, uh, my
mom is a narcissistic parent.
And so it was difficult, right?
So I had to be okay with the outcome,whether that was totally releasing our
(35:45):
relationship or opening a conversation.
Also with my husband, we've been throughso much in almost forty years together and
I was afraid that this, 'cause I do talkabout issues that we had in our marriage,
(36:07):
that this would reopen some old wounds andcause harm to my relationship with him.
The third thing that I wasfearful was, my safety.
Because when the book came out, twoof the men were still incarcerated.
One of them had already been releasedin 2017, so I was a little afraid
(36:31):
of retaliation, coming from mybackground, because we were targets
at one point, the entire family.
Um, so all those oldfeelings came back up.
But what I realized that therewas so much pain and anger
(36:54):
revolving around my dad's death.
And, and the fact that mybrother was involved and saw it.
In the law enforcement world especially,um, I felt like if people saw the healing
I did and the resiliency I have, thatit would allow them to heal as well.
(37:18):
And I also realized that thereare faceless people out there
that maybe are afraid of startingtheir healing journey from trauma.
That maybe by them seeing my bookand reading my book and hearing my
message, that it would give them, um,
(37:41):
an idea of they weren't alone.
You know, just making sure that theyunderstood that they aren't alone and
you can get through things like this.
You can move through this, thesethings, you can find resiliency
on the other side of it.
So every time I had those fears popup and they came, they popped up
(38:04):
frequently, I always put my purposebehind the writing of the book.
Which was the faceless people out therethat needed to hear my message, that
needed to hear they weren't alone, andneeded to hear that they can heal from
whatever trauma that they've gone through.
(38:26):
Yeah, I, I think it's so important.
You know, they, they say copingwith things can be difficult.
I, I say it is going to be difficultno matter how, how strong we are.
When hiccups hit us, it's a roadblock.
(38:49):
And sometimes our mind, it, itstumbles when those things happen.
So what, what is the best thing that hascome out of this instance in your life?
Oh gosh, the best thing,I, I found my purpose.
(39:11):
Um, I found my purpose.
And so when I speak to people,um, I'm coming from a place of, I
understand where they're coming from.
And my biggest message that Iput out to people when they meet
(39:34):
me is, that I am a safe space.
You can be vulnerable with me, youcan trust me, there is no judgment.
I think a lot of people go intotherapy and they're afraid to be
vulnerable because they're afraidthey're gonna be judged for whatever
it is that's coming out of their mouth.
(39:56):
And I can tell you right now, if you havea therapist that has any kind of judgment,
you get up from that chair and you leavethe office because that's not your person.
Um, and I had to learn that, you know?
And I was, I was grateful it only tookme two therapists to figure that out.
(40:18):
However, I tell people all thetime, this is your healing.
It's nobody else's healing.
You have every right to interviewyour therapist, make sure that that
therapist knows your type of trauma.
Not that they lump you into onegeneralization of what trauma is,
(40:40):
because every trauma is different.
So if they don't know what type of traumayou've gone through, they're gonna have
a hard time guiding you in the rightway and nurturing you along the way.
And so I tell everybody, like, makesure that you're interviewing them.
Ask that question, Is this the typeof trauma that you specialize in?
(41:04):
Or how many, how many clients have youdealt with, with my type of trauma?
And if you feel like you can be vulnerablewith that person, if you feel like that's
a safe space for you, I know that beingvulnerable is one of the most scariest
(41:24):
thing in the whole wide world, to openyourself up and be that raw, I get it.
I've been there, I've done that.
And I, and I recognizethat, and that's okay.
That's okay, that's valid.
However, if you don't allow yourself to bevulnerable with that therapist, with that
(41:48):
professional, with that coach, with thatspiritual leader, whatever it is that you
seek, the real true healing is not gonnahappen in the way that you need it to.
So it's really important.
Yeah.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
(42:09):
That, that is.
That is 100% truth andit's rock solid advice.
So I, I found podcasting and I foundthat this release mechanism and
this journey of education has helpedme grow immensely in my journey.
(42:33):
Also my wife's journey.
And we really find comfortin learning from others and
what they have went through.
This is a solid way to be able to turnon and just listen to other people
and how they have went through andovercome different situations in life.
(42:59):
And you don't even have to say a word.
So I found that podcasting can be a safespace and you can be wherever you are.
So when you don't have thattrust in somebody, there's
always that mechanism of hope.
And that's what Susan and I are heredoing today, is providing that hope
(43:24):
and that availability for individualsthat might be seeking a better way.
And we might be a doorstep tothat therapist for them because
we all need help, don't we, Susan?
Absolutely, absolutely.
(43:47):
You know, it's, it's, and where I comeinto play as a coach, because even though
I went through all of this work, I didall of that work meant for my mental
health, you still get to a point inyour life where you're like, Okay, I'm
this person now, what do I do with it?
And, and so that's where I come into play.
(44:11):
You know, we, we, I meetyou where you are, right?
If you still need, if you stillhave some healing to do, I'm not a
therapist, but I know enough to beable to, um, move you past some of that
so that you're able to move forward.
Whether it's in your relationship,whether it's parenting, you know,
(44:35):
being a mom or a dad, or, you know,in your career, in, you know, in your
business life, your professional life.
So, um, that's where I come into playas far as being a resiliency coach.
Yes.
And, and life skill, it, it really isthe defining factor in being an expert.
(44:58):
You know, a white coat doesnot make you an expert.
But I can guarantee you after you'refifty years old and you've been married
over forty years, that's a lot ofexperience that can help many people.
I've been with my wife andmarried, we got together in 1983.
(45:19):
We've been married since 1985, andit's the best thing and the worst
thing that's ever happened in my life.
But I am very thankful for theexperience and the transition that
led me to where I am here today.
And that's the beauty ofthe experience factor.
(45:43):
Being over fifty, have a lot to offer.
And there's no way anyone can deny that.
So I highly encourage you to keep going.
And most of all, I wanna saythank you for sharing here today.
Do you have anything else you'dlike to add to our conversation or
(46:05):
give our listeners a call to action?
Yeah, so, um, a couple of things.
I always end with one.
Um, if you're out there and you'relistening to this, just know that
you're not alone and there is a personout there that can help you heal.
(46:26):
The one thing I can say personally isthat doing the work and healing through
my trauma and finding resiliency,
the fact that I don't havethat pain hold it, held over
my head anymore is priceless.
(46:47):
And that's what I want for everyone,I want everyone to feel that.
And so just knowing that you'renot alone and that's not something
that I heard as a young lady.
Um, I felt very alone.
And so it's always my, it'salways my message to people.
(47:10):
And you know, like I said, um, life ismessy and we do get trauma along the way
and you can also find thehealing through that trauma.
And once you have healed througha trauma and you've worked, done
(47:31):
some of the work, when things comeup in life, you're more apt to cope
with them in a more healthy way.
So it's very important for youto take time out for yourself.
I know a lot of people heal for others,they heal for their children, they
(47:52):
try to heal for, you know, whoeverelse, you need to heal for yourself.
And you'll see once you've healedyourself and healed your wounds,
that it ripples out and thepeople around you recognize that.
So then now you're in it togetherinstead of on an island alone.
(48:13):
And that's, that's reallyimportant in your journey.
Yeah.
How can people reach out andget in touch and work with you?
Sure.
So, um, if you want the book, I'lltell you where to get the book.
The book is The Other Side of the Gun.
(48:35):
My Journey from Trauma to Resiliency.
It is on Amazon and it is in Kindle form.
So if you're a Kindle Unlimited, uh,member, you can read my book for free.
All I ask is for reviews.
Um, I am on Instagram,Susan underscore Snow 1.
(48:59):
I am on TikTok and I have a website.
My website is great 'cause it givesinformation on my speaking, it also
gives, uh, information on my coachingand a little bit about my book.
So that is susansnowspeaks.com.
Susan, it's remarkable whatyou're doing out there.
(49:21):
I thank you for doing it, and thankyou so much for sharing here today.
I wish you the best.
Thank you so much.
Thanks for having me.
Thank you for joining us today.
If you found this podcast enlightening,entertaining, educational in any way,
(49:47):
please share, like, subscribe, and joinus right back here next week for another
great episode of the Dead America Podcast.
I'm Ed Watters, your host, enjoyyour afternoon wherever you might be.
Because even though I went throughall of this work, I did all of that
work meant for my mental health.
You still get to a point in yourlife where you're like, okay, I'm
this person now what do I do with it?
And, and so that's where Icome into play, you know?
(00:54):
Today, we are speaking with Susan Snow.
Susan is a trauma resiliencecoach, a speaker, and an author.
She is also the daughter of a slain LosAngeles Police Department Detective,
Thomas C. Williams, who was killed inthe line of duty on October 31st, 1985.
(01:16):
Susan, could you pleaseintroduce yourself?
Let people know just a littlemore about you, please.
Sure, absolutely.
Uh, hi everyone.
Um, like he said, uh, I am the daughterof, uh, detective Tom Williams.
And, um, when I was seventeen,uh, he was a, a robbery/homicide
(01:43):
detective at the time.
And, um, I also had a six-year-old brotherand, uh, it was Halloween night and my dad
was, uh, a lead detective on a case thathe was testifying that morning in court.
(02:05):
And he and I chatted about it.
And, uh, I wanted to goto a party that night.
It was, I was seventeen, I was a teenager,I wanted to go out with my friends.
Uh, he said, Absolutelyno, it's a school night.
And so, you know, he just said,uh, When we come home, When I
come home, we'll talk about it.
(02:26):
But the plan was that he was gonnaleave court, go to my brother's school,
pick him up from school and come home.
Meanwhile, my mom and I would be home.
And so when I got home from school, I gotready for my night and my mom came home.
She was still in her costumefrom work, her work party.
(02:48):
And the phone rang.
And when it rang, I went and grabbedit 'cause I thought it was for me.
And it wasn't for me, it was alady from my brother's school.
All she said was that there was adrive-by shooting and my dad was involved.
My mom came around the corner and I sawher so I handed her the phone immediately.
(03:11):
And I watched her demeanorand I watched her posture.
And as she was talking to this lady,I could just tell that it was bad.
She got off the phone and shesaid, We're going to the school.
So, school was about sevenminutes from my childhood home.
We got there and the way that, uh,Faith Baptist is set up is there is
(03:36):
a parking lot right in the middle ofthe school and after school care got
out on the backside of the school.
So that's where we headed.
As we started heading there, um, itwas nighttime by now, and I could just
see the sky was lit up by all of the,uh, police cars lights, and then there
(03:59):
was an ambulance in the road as well.
So we were walking and then she and Iboth caught, uh, my, my dad's truck,
so we started to run towards the truck.
And when we got closer, we sawthat there was glass on the ground.
We rounded the corner, and there he waspartially covered up with a white sheet.
(04:24):
And at that moment I watched my mombuckle and she started screaming,
and my teenage mind was not ableto comprehend what I was seeing.
So what I ended up doing isfocusing on the ambulance.
(04:44):
And my brain kept saying, Why,why, why isn't anybody helping him?
Where is everybody?
What?
Why isn't he being helped?
Soon enough, two officers came up andgrabbed our arms and escorted us back into
the school where we went to an office andmy mom was taken aside by some detectives.
(05:07):
I sat in the office just tryingto comprehend what was happening
because there was so much chaosgoing on, and I still was not
comprehending what was happening.
I still was not comprehendingthat he was gone.
It wasn't until I heard two ladies talkingin the office, they worked there, and
(05:30):
the one lady said that, that, uh, Mr.
Williams was deceased.
And at that point, my lifeshattered, my world shattered.
And all I can think of is gettingup out of that chair and running
outta that room and running as faras I could from this nightmare.
(05:52):
But my legs and everything in my bodyfelt like cement, I couldn't move.
Wasn't very long after that,my mom came to me and she said,
I'm sending you with a neighbor.
And I know that in that momentI wanted to run out of there
and run away from the scene.
(06:12):
But the kid part of me wanted tobe with my family unit, I needed
to be with my mom and my brother.
At that point, I didn't evenknow where my brother was.
I didn't know if he washurt, I didn't know anything.
I had no information.
All I knew is I wasgoing with the neighbor.
And the neighbor picked me up, tookher to her house, took me to her house.
(06:36):
And, uh, she had known my parents foryears and she, herself as an adult,
was trying to comprehend everything.
And, uh, here she had, uh, hisdaughter who was totally inconsolable
at the point, at that point.
And she tried really hard tobe there for me and, you know,
(07:00):
console me the best that she could.
But I had been dating this boy forabout three months, and at that
point, all I wanted was my boyfriend.
So I asked her to call him at work.
And he, he was nineteen at the time.
And he showed up andhe had no information.
(07:22):
So when he showed up at the door,he said, Grab your purse, grab your
jacket, let's go to the hospital.
What hospital is he at?
Where's your mom?
Where's your brother?
You know, all the normal, uh,questions that you would get.
And, um, I couldn't spit itout, I couldn't say the words.
But the more persistent he got, themore I just blurted it out, He's gone.
(07:47):
And he said, What do you mean he's gone?
And I said, He's gone.
He's not at a hospital.
And at that point, I watched mynineteen-year-old boyfriend drop
to his knees and start sobbing.
And both of us were just tryingto navigate all of the things that
were going on in that very moment.
This was mid eighties.
(08:10):
So back then there was no talk of mentalhealth, there was little known about PTSD,
and there were no resources for kids.
Not even LAPD had systems in placefor children of fallen officers.
They really, um, focused on thewives, the widows, and the widowers.
(08:35):
And my poor neighbor had no ideawhat she was doing with us, you know,
she was just, she was trying to,um, work through her own emotions.
And like I said, it was very chaotic.
'Cause that night my quiet littleneighborhood was overwrought with police
(08:55):
cars and, um, we had helicopters overhead.
And the media ascended because it was a,it was a huge story at the, at that time.
So when I finally did go home, um,there were cars in my driveway that I
didn't recognize, and we had police,um, we had armed police officers who
(09:24):
were in our front yard and our backyard.
And I, I went in the house andmy house was filled with people,
I had no idea who they were.
I know now they were dignitaries and,uh, advocates and all kinds of people.
And I could hear my mom in thekitchen, um, faintly, I still
(09:48):
had no idea where my brother was.
And I, I literally justran in my room and hid.
I didn't wanna talk to anybody, Ididn't want any questions, uh, nothing.
And I had this feeling of, um, justwanting to hide, I just wanted to hide.
And the next day, uh, when Ilooked outside, 'cause I didn't
(10:14):
sleep, it was sunlight and westill had the police presence.
I finally got to see my brother, itwas about 11 o'clock in the morning.
And I had heard him crying in the middleof the night, so I knew he was okay
and at home 'cause I had heard him cry.
But at that time, Ihad nothing left in me.
(10:38):
I couldn't even get up outof my bed at that point.
So I figured my mom would console him.
And when I did finally get to see him,it was the first time I could hug him,
and tell him I loved him, and tell himthat we were gonna get through this.
Um, and so it, you know, itwas just going from a normal
(11:05):
teenage life to this, was crazy.
It was surreal.
They didn't catch the men that wereinvolved in my dad's murder for six days.
So we had police presence for sixdays and, um, I had bodyguards.
(11:25):
I mean, it was just nuts.
It was crazy, and Idon't wish it on anyone.
Um,
it wasn't too long after the funeral,everything kind of died down a little
bit, my mom came to me and said that LAPDwanted to pay for us to go to therapy.
(11:46):
Well, at the time I thought, If you goto a therapist, that means you're crazy.
Because that was just my,that was my young mind, and I
didn't know anything different.
But I was also living in alife where I was in fog, I was
like walking around in a fog.
I wasn't even living, I was existing.
(12:10):
And I was dealing with a lotof depression, and I was, I
had suicidal ideation, althoughI didn't know what it was.
Um, and I was very anxious 'cause mydad was my protector and now he's gone.
And at the time, uh, I didn't have areally solid relationship with my mother.
(12:35):
It, it was a little bit on the toxic side,so trying to navigate that relationship
as well with my dad not being there.
And so when my mom voluntold me that I wasgoing to therapy, I was like, All right.
I was kind of in that state of mindthat if you pushed me in a direction,
(12:57):
that's the direction I would go.
So I did go to therapyand I met the therapist.
And in hindsight, I don't believethat this therapist was ready
to get into the weeds with me.
I don't think that he wastrauma competent or informed for
(13:19):
that reason, for that manner.
And I was, um, I was really struggling,but at the same time, I was scared to
tell him what he was, what I was feeling,for the fear that he would lock me up.
You know, he'd send me to the looneybin and that would be it for me.
(13:42):
So I didn't say anything and I didn'tknow how to verbalize it anyways.
Um, he didn't, he didn't ask me, he didn'task me the questions of, you know, what I
was feeling or what that night did to me,
(14:03):
which blows people's mind.
But if he's a therapist that didn't wannaget in the weeds with me, I get that.
If he asks that question, then he'sin it and he better know how to
help me through it.
So for an entire year I saw this man.
(14:23):
And our sessions were reallycommon, they were very shallow.
It was all about my relationshipwith my mom, my relationship with
my brother, my boyfriend, and schoolsince I was a senior in high school.
And that was it.
(14:44):
And every week I was like, today's theday he's gonna help me feel better.
Today's the day.
And then I would leave andjust not feel any better.
In fact, sometimes I felt worse.
And after a year of this, he lookedat me and said, Susan, you're
a well-rounded young lady and Idon't need to see you anymore.
(15:06):
You're gonna be fine forthe rest of your life.
And I left that office andI was like, okay, that's it.
I've cracked, I'm crazy, noteven a professional can help me.
I'm gonna have to figurethis out on my own.
Which was terrifying because now I'monly, I'm still a, a kid, I'm eighteen.
(15:33):
And I just did what I did naturally,which is I created this emotional mask
based on what people told me I was.
So if someone said, Oh my gosh,you were so brave, you're so
strong, you're gonna be fine.
(15:54):
That was it, that was it.
And I wore that thing so well thatno one on the exterior knew the
turmoil that was going on, no one.
And not even my boyfriend kneweverything that was going on at the time.
I was scared to tell him because Ithought he would hightail it out of there.
(16:19):
And he really, at the time, wasthe only thing that I had that was
positive in my life besides, youknow, some of my close friends.
So I didn't tell him either.
And I lived like this.
I, I, I married him, we're stilltogether almost forty years later.
(16:43):
Um, so I married him and we had two kids.
And in 97 we decided it wastime to leave California.
I, I was ready to like, kind of putthat part of my life aside and go
somewhere where no one knew me, no oneknew the story, no one knew anything
(17:04):
and start over, quotations, start over.
Um, because little did I know thatyour pain and anguish and trauma goes
with you no matter where you are.
So geography didn't matter.
(17:26):
So we, we moved, uh, April of 97, and atthe time I was working as a hairdresser.
I was working in a salon thatwas close to Littleton, Colorado.
And on April 20th, of 1999, I wasworking that day, uh, I had taken a
break from, uh, my client and went intothe back room and turned on the TV.
(17:48):
We had a little tiny TV back there inour break room and up popped the live
coverage of the Columbine shootings.
I started having flashbacks, I turnedpale, I started sweating, I could feel an,
an anxiety attack coming, and I was reallyconfused, because remember, I was told I
(18:17):
was gonna be fine for the rest of my life.
So I didn't recognizewhat was happening to me.
And my colleagues did not know my story.
So when they saw me going throughall of this, they were confused.
And they're like, We don't get it.
You're, you're not old enoughto have kids there, we know you
don't live around that area.
What, what is happening to you?
(18:39):
And I couldn't answer it, I had no idea.
So what I did was, what I alwaysdid, I put that mask back on and
I went out and I finished my day.
Now everybody around me was so upset,crying, angry, I mean, you name it.
(18:59):
And I was just like, this isn't gonnaaffect me, I'm gonna finish my day, this
is gonna be fine and inside I was a mess.
But out exterior wise, no one saw it.
Nobody saw it.
The minute I walked through those doorsto get in my car, everything flooded back.
(19:21):
Everything.
And I felt like I was spiraling.
Um, I had suicidal ideation,I, I had plans in my head.
But at the same time, I hadthis like internal fight.
Because even though I didn't wanna feellike this anymore, I had two babies
(19:42):
at home and I need to stay for them.
And so, um, I didn't know what I wasgonna do and it wasn't until my husband
stopped me at the door, 'cause he's avery smart man, and he watched me spiral.
He saw it coming and he knewit was a slippery slope.
(20:05):
So he said, he told me, You havetwo choices, you either get help
or I'm putting you in a hospital.
And at that point I was so scaredthat I put up that white flag and I
was like, All right, I'll, I'll go tothe doctor, I'll, I'll get some help.
And I made an appointment thatafternoon to go see a physician, and
(20:27):
the physician put me on antidepressantsbecause that's what they do.
And then he handed me a businesscard and he said, I want you to make
an appointment with this therapist.
And I literally laughed in his facebecause I said, Look, I tried this
fourteen years ago and it didn't work, sowhat makes you think it's gonna work now.
(20:52):
And he said, You know, honestly,you don't have a choice.
And so I made the appointment, andthree minutes into the appointment,
I, I knew something was different.
She was asking me the questions.
And I felt safe withher, so I answered them.
(21:14):
I was allowing myself tobe vulnerable with her.
And she looked at me after she heard mystory and she said, Susan, everything
you've gone through since you wereseventeen is normal because you have PTSD.
And I was like, Wait aminute, I didn't go to war.
(21:38):
I'm not in the military,what do you mean I have PTSD?
And she said, Nope.
She said, Anyone who goes through anytype of trauma can experience PTSD.
But what you need to know about that isthat it's not something that goes away,
it's something you learn to manage.
(21:59):
And in that moment, I realized I hadhope for the first time that I had hope.
And that I had a person that I hadbeen yearning to have all these
years, someone to be able to listento me and guide me in the right way
(22:19):
so that I can heal from my trauma.
And I was so grateful inthat moment, so grateful.
So that was the beginningof my journey of healing.
It, it's, it's a veryfascinating story, Susan.
(22:39):
Um, I really wanna askthe first question here.
Did your family ever talk aboutwhat if, if this ever occurred,
before your father's passing?
Uh, did you ever sit down at the tableand say, Look, I have this dangerous
(23:02):
job, and at any time, tragedy couldstrike and we all need to be able
to open up and talk about this.
Was there ever that time in your family?
No.
You know, I, I kind of hada false sense of security.
(23:24):
Because when he became a detective, inmy mind, a detective comes in after.
So the, the, the, it's more of theprocessing, it's not being in the middle
of the crime or, you know, puttingyourself in harm's way in that way.
(23:44):
And so I felt like dad had a desk job,you know, how, how dangerous is that?
We didn't think aboutretaliation or anything like
that, and this is what it was.
And so, and it had never happened before,so it wasn't even in our stratosphere.
(24:06):
You know, we just didn'teven think about that.
I'm sure my mom and dad had, you know,conversations when he went into law
enforcement that this is a possibility.
But when it came to me, being asold as I was, and being able to
have those kind of conversations, Ijust felt like, you know, he had a
(24:33):
desk job, he came in after the fact.
You know, what harm could come to him?
So, yeah, it was never a conversationwith, especially with me and him.
So what was your supportsystem like before the incident
and then after the incident?
(24:54):
Was there ever any, you know,the thin blue line brotherhood?
They are supposed totake care of each other.
Was there support fromthem before and after?
And what was that like?
Um, you know, my dad was pretty closewith a lot of the guys that he worked
(25:17):
with, so they were kind of like family.
Um, the one thing I can say about mydad was he was a very present person.
So when you were with him, he alwaysmade you feel like you were the
most important person in the room.
And anyone who knew him, whether,you know, he worked with them,
or trained them, or whatever,will say the same thing.
(25:40):
And so there was always that feelingof, you know, if something had happened,
they would be there for his family.
But afterwards, yes,there was absolutely that.
They came, they did whatever theycould to help my mom around the house.
The following week, my brother hada birthday and he turned seven.
(26:03):
And so my mom and dad had boughthim a bike and they wanted, my dad
wanted to teach him how to ride hisbike, but he didn't get that chance.
So, um, there were about, I, I don'tknow, twenty detectives that showed
(26:23):
up at our door on his birthday andshowed my brother how to ride a bike.
Um, and they came around quite a bit,you know, there was a lot of police
officers that, even though theyweren't like in our face behind the
scenes, they would look out for us.
Um, my mom would have drive-bys allthe time where the, um, the guys that
(26:48):
were on duty would drive by the housejust to make sure she was okay and
nothing, you know, nothing was awry.
Um, and there was a lot of that going on.
I had no idea until much, much, like oneof 'em, I just realized, like I just got a
(27:10):
letter from his wife, he has since passed.
But, uh, his wife read my book andshe, um, she reached out to me by
email and told me that he always, hewas one of the officers that escorted
us into the office that night.
(27:32):
So he would always kind of keepan eye on my mom and my brother.
And, um, and, and that was reallybittersweet, um, especially
knowing that he is no longer here,and I didn't even know about it.
My mom knew about it,but she never told me.
(27:55):
Which is not a shocker.
Yeah, that's how it works.
So, you know, yeah.
Your, your brother was there when ithappened and, you know, your father kind
of told him to get down and get out of theway, so I'm sure he's, he's going through
(28:18):
a lot of the same and maybe a little more.
Uh, do you guys ever talk about whathappened and do you reminisce about it?
Uh, yeah.
I try not to.
And the reason is, I mean, he and Ihave talked about a lot of things.
(28:40):
Um, I didn't have a relationshipwith him for many years just
because at the time when he wasan adolescent into early teens, he
started getting into some trouble.
Um, and he was not making goodchoices, let's just put it that way.
And, uh, headed down the drug route.
(29:02):
My mom was a drinker and my dad,my brother was, uh, an addict.
And so, um, I kind of, and we'reten years apart, so I distance
myself a lot from that drama.
Um, but as he got older and I got to knowhim as an adult and he got to know me as
(29:28):
an adult, we were able to start healingour relationship about seven years ago.
And in that, we were, it was literallya comparison of, comparison of notes.
Um, which was healing, but at thesame time, it's like, the one thing
(29:49):
that he could tell me is that, at thetime of the incident, all the focus
went on to him and my, and my mother.
And, and, and of course it would, right?
But I got pushed aside.
Um, the media didn't evenrealize or recognize that he
had a daughter for two days.
(30:09):
And so I felt very pushedaside, very not important.
Um, and he knew that andrecognized that and had a lot
of shame and guilt around that.
So we were able to healthrough those conversations.
Um, and now we're very, very close.
And he's doing great and he is, youknow, he married the love of his life.
(30:36):
He has a daughter in California,he's a stepdad, he's now a papa
to two babies, and, um, you know,he's doing really, really well now.
He has visceral reactions, um,he has, it, it leads to, to some
(30:58):
physical issues that he has if webring up, if he gets overly stressed.
So I told him when I wrote the book,you can read this or you don't have to.
You can read it along with your therapist.
Um, I don't wanna put any more pressureon him and I definitely don't wanna
(31:20):
cause him any more health issues.
So, um, I just told him, youknow, when you're, when it's
time, if you wanna read it, great.
If you don't ever wannaread it, that's fine too.
I totally get it.
Um, so we, we have been able to, we'vebeen able to like talk about that night
(31:43):
and what he saw and um, and I was ableto kind of tell him that, you know, it
made me sad that he had so much shameand so much guilt about, even though
he was six years old, that there wasnothing he could do to help the situation.
(32:05):
There was nothing he could do.
But he lived with survivor'sguilt for a really long time.
And, and I, you know, he had to hearit from me that it was okay to have
those feelings and just make surethat he knew that that was valid.
(32:28):
You know, it was a valid emotion to have.
However, you know, I don't feel that way.
Uh, no one else feels that way, andso he needs to learn to let that go
so that he can move on with his life.
Yeah.
(32:48):
Well, anytime we deal with thesetraumatic experiences, especially as
children, because that's when it'smost traumatizing, uh, in my opinion.
Uh, so
there's, there's a lot of wayspeople can go, but you chose to start
(33:11):
speaking out and become an advocate.
What was that tipping point like and whydid you choose to start speaking out?
Well, for me, part of the reason I wrotemy book was, um, when you go through
(33:32):
something like that, that's very muchin, uh, you know, out there in the open
and people make up in their minds yourstory and a lot of times their story did
not align with who I was as a person.
(33:54):
And so when I turned fifty years old,there's something about fifty, I don't
know, but I drew a line in the sand.
I drew a line in the sand andI said, It has to happen now,
I have to write my book now.
And it took me four anda half years to write it.
(34:14):
I had to be in the right mental state inorder to do this, and I had to have the
tools to manage the emotions that wouldcome up throughout the writing process.
And I did, I, I felt confidentin knowing that I would be able
to pull myself out of whateveremotion that I was headed towards.
(34:38):
There was a lot of fear involvedin writing this book, as well,
for a couple of different reasons.
When I sat back and I realized whatkind of book I wanted to write, which
was a memoir, I knew that I neededto be a hundred percent authentic.
And in doing that, I had to tell,not only my story, but I had to
(34:59):
tell other people's stories as well.
And in doing that, I knew thatpart of those people would
be my mom and my, my husband.
And I, when I thought about it,it was scary because my mom and
(35:21):
I were hanging on by a thread.
You know, our relationship hasnever been healthy and, uh, my
mom is a narcissistic parent.
And so it was difficult, right?
So I had to be okay with the outcome,whether that was totally releasing our
(35:45):
relationship or opening a conversation.
Also with my husband, we've been throughso much in almost forty years together and
I was afraid that this, 'cause I do talkabout issues that we had in our marriage,
(36:07):
that this would reopen some old wounds andcause harm to my relationship with him.
The third thing that I wasfearful was, my safety.
Because when the book came out, twoof the men were still incarcerated.
One of them had already been releasedin 2017, so I was a little afraid
(36:31):
of retaliation, coming from mybackground, because we were targets
at one point, the entire family.
Um, so all those oldfeelings came back up.
But what I realized that therewas so much pain and anger
(36:54):
revolving around my dad's death.
And, and the fact that mybrother was involved and saw it.
In the law enforcement world especially,um, I felt like if people saw the healing
I did and the resiliency I have, thatit would allow them to heal as well.
(37:18):
And I also realized that thereare faceless people out there
that maybe are afraid of startingtheir healing journey from trauma.
That maybe by them seeing my bookand reading my book and hearing my
message, that it would give them, um,
(37:41):
an idea of they weren't alone.
You know, just making sure that theyunderstood that they aren't alone and
you can get through things like this.
You can move through this, thesethings, you can find resiliency
on the other side of it.
So every time I had those fears popup and they came, they popped up
(38:04):
frequently, I always put my purposebehind the writing of the book.
Which was the faceless people out therethat needed to hear my message, that
needed to hear they weren't alone, andneeded to hear that they can heal from
whatever trauma that they've gone through.
(38:26):
Yeah, I, I think it's so important.
You know, they, they say copingwith things can be difficult.
I, I say it is going to be difficultno matter how, how strong we are.
When hiccups hit us, it's a roadblock.
(38:49):
And sometimes our mind, it, itstumbles when those things happen.
So what, what is the best thing that hascome out of this instance in your life?
Oh gosh, the best thing,I, I found my purpose.
(39:11):
Um, I found my purpose.
And so when I speak to people,um, I'm coming from a place of, I
understand where they're coming from.
And my biggest message that Iput out to people when they meet
(39:34):
me is, that I am a safe space.
You can be vulnerable with me, youcan trust me, there is no judgment.
I think a lot of people go intotherapy and they're afraid to be
vulnerable because they're afraidthey're gonna be judged for whatever
it is that's coming out of their mouth.
(39:56):
And I can tell you right now, if you havea therapist that has any kind of judgment,
you get up from that chair and you leavethe office because that's not your person.
Um, and I had to learn that, you know?
And I was, I was grateful it only tookme two therapists to figure that out.
(40:18):
However, I tell people all thetime, this is your healing.
It's nobody else's healing.
You have every right to interviewyour therapist, make sure that that
therapist knows your type of trauma.
Not that they lump you into onegeneralization of what trauma is,
(40:40):
because every trauma is different.
So if they don't know what type of traumayou've gone through, they're gonna have
a hard time guiding you in the rightway and nurturing you along the way.
And so I tell everybody, like, makesure that you're interviewing them.
Ask that question, Is this the typeof trauma that you specialize in?
(41:04):
Or how many, how many clients have youdealt with, with my type of trauma?
And if you feel like you can be vulnerablewith that person, if you feel like that's
a safe space for you, I know that beingvulnerable is one of the most scariest
(41:24):
thing in the whole wide world, to openyourself up and be that raw, I get it.
I've been there, I've done that.
And I, and I recognizethat, and that's okay.
That's okay, that's valid.
However, if you don't allow yourself to bevulnerable with that therapist, with that
(41:48):
professional, with that coach, with thatspiritual leader, whatever it is that you
seek, the real true healing is not gonnahappen in the way that you need it to.
So it's really important.
Yeah.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
(42:09):
That, that is.
That is 100% truth andit's rock solid advice.
So I, I found podcasting and I foundthat this release mechanism and
this journey of education has helpedme grow immensely in my journey.
(42:33):
Also my wife's journey.
And we really find comfortin learning from others and
what they have went through.
This is a solid way to be able to turnon and just listen to other people
and how they have went through andovercome different situations in life.
(42:59):
And you don't even have to say a word.
So I found that podcasting can be a safespace and you can be wherever you are.
So when you don't have thattrust in somebody, there's
always that mechanism of hope.
And that's what Susan and I are heredoing today, is providing that hope
(43:24):
and that availability for individualsthat might be seeking a better way.
And we might be a doorstep tothat therapist for them because
we all need help, don't we, Susan?
Absolutely, absolutely.
(43:47):
You know, it's, it's, and where I comeinto play as a coach, because even though
I went through all of this work, I didall of that work meant for my mental
health, you still get to a point inyour life where you're like, Okay, I'm
this person now, what do I do with it?
And, and so that's where I come into play.
(44:11):
You know, we, we, I meetyou where you are, right?
If you still need, if you stillhave some healing to do, I'm not a
therapist, but I know enough to beable to, um, move you past some of that
so that you're able to move forward.
Whether it's in your relationship,whether it's parenting, you know,
(44:35):
being a mom or a dad, or, you know,in your career, in, you know, in your
business life, your professional life.
So, um, that's where I come into playas far as being a resiliency coach.
Yes.
And, and life skill, it, it really isthe defining factor in being an expert.
(44:58):
You know, a white coat doesnot make you an expert.
But I can guarantee you after you'refifty years old and you've been married
over forty years, that's a lot ofexperience that can help many people.
I've been with my wife andmarried, we got together in 1983.
(45:19):
We've been married since 1985, andit's the best thing and the worst
thing that's ever happened in my life.
But I am very thankful for theexperience and the transition that
led me to where I am here today.
And that's the beauty ofthe experience factor.
(45:43):
Being over fifty, have a lot to offer.
And there's no way anyone can deny that.
So I highly encourage you to keep going.
And most of all, I wanna saythank you for sharing here today.
Do you have anything else you'dlike to add to our conversation or
(46:05):
give our listeners a call to action?
Yeah, so, um, a couple of things.
I always end with one.
Um, if you're out there and you'relistening to this, just know that
you're not alone and there is a personout there that can help you heal.
(46:26):
The one thing I can say personally isthat doing the work and healing through
my trauma and finding resiliency,
the fact that I don't havethat pain hold it, held over
my head anymore is priceless.
(46:47):
And that's what I want for everyone,I want everyone to feel that.
And so just knowing that you'renot alone and that's not something
that I heard as a young lady.
Um, I felt very alone.
And so it's always my, it'salways my message to people.
(47:10):
And you know, like I said, um, life ismessy and we do get trauma along the way
and you can also find thehealing through that trauma.
And once you have healed througha trauma and you've worked, done
(47:31):
some of the work, when things comeup in life, you're more apt to cope
with them in a more healthy way.
So it's very important for youto take time out for yourself.
I know a lot of people heal for others,they heal for their children, they
(47:52):
try to heal for, you know, whoeverelse, you need to heal for yourself.
And you'll see once you've healedyourself and healed your wounds,
that it ripples out and thepeople around you recognize that.
So then now you're in it togetherinstead of on an island alone.
(48:13):
And that's, that's reallyimportant in your journey.
Yeah.
How can people reach out andget in touch and work with you?
Sure.
So, um, if you want the book, I'lltell you where to get the book.
The book is The Other Side of the Gun.
(48:35):
My Journey from Trauma to Resiliency.
It is on Amazon and it is in Kindle form.
So if you're a Kindle Unlimited, uh,member, you can read my book for free.
All I ask is for reviews.
Um, I am on Instagram,Susan underscore Snow 1.
(48:59):
I am on TikTok and I have a website.
My website is great 'cause it givesinformation on my speaking, it also
gives, uh, information on my coachingand a little bit about my book.
So that is susansnowspeaks.com.
Susan, it's remarkable whatyou're doing out there.
(49:21):
I thank you for doing it, and thankyou so much for sharing here today.
I wish you the best.
Thank you so much.
Thanks for having me.
Thank you for joining us today.
If you found this podcast enlightening,entertaining, educational in any way,
(49:47):
please share, like, subscribe, and joinus right back here next week for another
great episode of the Dead America Podcast.
I'm Ed Watters, your host, enjoyyour afternoon wherever you might be.
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