Demonic Forces: A Psychiatrist's Perspective on Possession

This podcast episode delves into the intricate relationship between mental health and spiritual phenomena, particularly the existence of evil spirits. We engage in a profound dialogue with Dr. Richard Gallagher, a prominent psychiatrist, who challenges the prevailing materialistic paradigm in mental health. Our discussion illuminates the rising interest in religious experiences, especially within the context of the Catholic Church, as many individuals seek spiritual explanations for their struggles. Furthermore, we explore the necessity of distinguishing between psychological disorders and genuine spiritual crises, emphasizing the critical need for spiritual assistance in certain cases. Join us as we navigate these complex themes, striving to broaden our understanding of the interplay between the psychological and the spiritual realms.

The discussion navigates the intricate relationship between mental health and spiritual phenomena, particularly focusing on the existence of evil spirits as perceived by various cultures and religions. Speaker A, a psychiatrist with a profound academic background, articulates the significance of recognizing that certain psychological afflictions may transcend conventional psychiatric definitions, potentially stemming from spiritual or demonic influences. This perspective challenges the prevalent materialistic view held by many in the mental health community, suggesting that a broader understanding of human experience is necessary to adequately address the complexities of mental health issues. The conversation highlights the historical context of belief in evil spirits, noting that such beliefs have persisted across cultures and epochs, indicating a universal human recognition of the non-material dimensions of existence.

Takeaways:

• The podcast explores the intersection of mental health and spiritual phenomena, emphasizing the need for careful discernment.
• Many mental health professionals worldwide acknowledge the existence of evil spirits, despite skepticism in mainstream science.
• The discussion highlights the growing interest in religious experiences amidst a surge of conversions to Catholicism in the United States.
• It is argued that some psychological issues may extend beyond materialistic explanations, requiring spiritual intervention.
• The importance of distinguishing between psychiatric conditions and genuine spiritual problems is underscored throughout the conversation.
• The dialogue reflects on historical beliefs in evil spirits, illustrating that this phenomenon transcends modern skepticism.

Links referenced in this episode:

• deadlydeparted.co
• paranormaldailynews

Companies mentioned in this episode:

• Demonic Force
• Columbia University
• New York Medical College
• Catholic Church
• Paranormal Daily News

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
I say number one.
You know, there are manymental health professionals around
the world who believe in evil spirits.
You know, I mean, is it a majority?
Probably not, but it's, youknow, it's a significant number.
Welcome to the Deadly Departedpodcast, where the veil between the
living and the dead is just awhisper away.
I'm Jock, and along with mycolleagues in Paranormal Daily News,

(00:21):
we will be your guides throughthe shadowy realms of the paranormal
and the unexplained.
In each episode, we will diveinto the eerie and the enigmatic
with the help of today'sleading experts in parapsychology,
science and the supernatural.
Prepare to uncover the secretsthat lurk in the dark and explore
the mysteries that defy explanation.
Let's embark on this journey now.

(00:44):
Good morning, good evening,good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
This is Jock here.
This is Deadly Departed.
Welcome back, ladies andgentlemen, to you are going to see
a good friend of mine here,Dr. Richard Gallagher, who if you
have been following us for along time, you will recognize Richard

(01:05):
from one of my other podcasts,other podcasts, other episodes.
Actually, I'm delighted tohave him back.
And I think we're going tojump into a great conversation that
actually Richard and I talkabout every time we have a good chat
about mental health,possessions, obsessions, spiritual
crisis, or effectively evenreligious crisis, which is really

(01:31):
important in today's day and age.
Now, if you've been followingthe news, you'll notice that the
Catholic Church has beengrowing in the U.S. there's been
a massive surgeons of peopleconverting and going back to Catholicism
and actually converting to Catholicism.
And of course, that bringswith it a lot of potential misunderstandings

(01:52):
around religious experience,mystical experiences, and the potential
of mental health that mayborderline into something that goes
way beyond maybe psychiatry or psychology.
And that's what we're here totalk about today.
Richard, welcome back to the show.

(02:13):
I'm really glad to have you back.
Thank you, Jack.
It's nice to see you and niceto be back on the show.
Now let's.
Obviously you've.
For anybody who's watching,this is a great book, one of my favorite
books, Demonic Force.
Go and read it.
We'll talk about that.
But let's talk a little bitabout your work carrying on from

(02:36):
what we did in anotherepisode, your experience in mental
health as a psychiatrist andhow you really challenged the materialism,
the materialistic aspect orthe science going beyond the science
to recognize that there arespiritual problems that go beyond

(02:58):
mental health.
Well, a little bit, you know,the background to the question.
So I am a professor ofpsychiatry at New York Medical College.
I'm also a psychoanalyst atColumbia, and I also teach at a Catholic
seminary.
I teach this whole subject ofdemonology, really.

(03:21):
So on the one hand, you know,I am a Catholic, and on the other
hand, you know, I am.
I am a mainstream psychiatrist.
So I accept a lot of thefindings of science.
I'm not in any way anti science.
We do have to recognize,though, that.

(03:44):
Some aspects of the scientificparadigm can exclude the non material.
Yeah, you know, I'm obviouslynot a materialist, but again, that
doesn't.
That doesn't put me so far outof the mainstream.

(04:08):
You know, there are manyChristian, you know, Jewish, even
Muslim psychiatrists.
You know, I know many of theseindividuals who, you know, practice
their faith and also arepretty accepted mainstream psychiatrists.

(04:28):
So, you know, the questionbecomes how you put it together.
You know, how you understandthat, you know, mankind is body and
soul, and sometimes you haveto address the brain and, you know,
disturbances of the brain, andother times people's problems are,

(04:50):
you know, go beyond evennormal psychological issues to the
spiritual.
I think the cases you'rereferring to are cases I never volunteered
to see.
You know, I was asked toevaluate some people with what you

(05:11):
and I, I'm sure, would regardas, you know, beyond the naturalistic,
beyond the materialistic, thatthey have overt spiritual problems.
Yeah.
Now, you know, since they'reproblems, in my case, we're primarily
talking about demonic attacks.

(05:32):
And yes, it is true that afair amount of psychiatrists may
be skeptical of that.
We're all aware of, say,psychotic individuals who only imagine
or are delusional that they'rebeing attacked by evil spirits.
But then there are the, youknow, dramatic cases, many of which

(05:53):
I have consulted upon over the years.
And these, these are cases ofpeople who say we'll go into a possessed
state or will be overtlyattacked by an evil spirit.
And of course, that requires,you know, sometimes it requires some
psychological help too, but,you know, at heart it requires something

(06:15):
beyond psychiatry.
It requires.
Requires spiritual assistance.
If you are enjoying thisepisode of Deadly Departed, then
please share it with yourcolleagues or share it with your
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And if you've got any ideas onanyone that you would like us to
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(06:36):
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and subscribe.
God bless.
David Luke obviously did a lotof work in bringing in recognition,
if you like, into the DSM 5,where there has to be.
There's some form of maybe alittle bit of an understanding of

(07:02):
a spiritual problem.
It doesn't obviously mention demonic.
It just said, obviously aspiritual or religious problem.
But do you think that thereneeds to be more work in our field
to perhaps even expand on whatthe DSM 5 says?
Because there is obviouslycases that go beyond the realm of

(07:29):
psychiatry or psychology andscience because of anomalous phenomena
that's perhaps experienced inpotential cases.
And do you think that if thereis more of a change or more research
done into it, that we couldperhaps open the field even more

(07:50):
and maybe get it accepted as areligious problem and to recognize
spiritual intelligences,demons as being realistically a problem
in the mental health field?
Well, I have a different.
I have a different perspective.

(08:16):
I think the DSM system.
Works as.
Far as it goes.
Right.
You know, and I don'tnecessarily want, you know, the medical
or the psychiatric community.

(08:41):
To dabble, to cross over into,you know, different philosophical
viewpoints.
Right.
In other words, I think wehave to keep those fields somewhat
separate.
I mean, you know, in my book.
Demonic Foes, as you know, Ido a careful distinction between

(09:04):
spiritual conditions andpsychiatric conditions.
Now, psychiatric conditions inthemselves, we use something called
the biopsychosocial model.
In other words, we recognizethat there are things beyond.
Beyond that can be juststudied biologically.

(09:25):
We have to bring in psychologyin some ways, we even have to bring
in social.
Social factors.
But for psychiatry to getoverly involved, Jock in.
I'll use the wordpontificating, you know, you know,

(09:45):
attempting to explain, using.
Using, you know, mainstreamscientific categories.
The.
Demonic, I think, opens a canof worms.
You know, so, you know, youknow, what, what.
What religious or spiritualviewpoint do you accept?

(10:06):
You know, because there's sucha diversity even within, you know,
the spiritual community aboutsome of these phenomena that I think
it's better, you know, youkeep things separate.
You know, what I say in mybook is that it's important to make
careful distinctions.

(10:28):
Thank you.
Got my allergies today.
It's important to make properdistinctions between overt spiritual
attacks.
And again, what I'm primarilytalking about there is.
As attacks I'm talking about.
It implies evil spirits.

(10:48):
Yeah.
Between overt interference andattacks by evil spirits and, you
know, otherwise, you know,psychiatric conditions.
I think that distinction is soimportant that I'd be leery of, you

(11:09):
know, say, the AmericanPsychiatric association, which.
Which writes the dsm, gettingoverly mixed up in it because it
would just.
It would.
It would open so manycontroversies that I think.
I think they.
They.
They have to stay a littleneutral on that subject.
You know, trust me, trust me.
I know many psychiatristsaround the world who believe exactly

(11:33):
the way I do.
You know, they probably don'thave, you know, as much experience
as I've had because, you know,I've probably seen more of these
cases.
I get calls from all over theworld and I've seen more of these
cases.
I'm also a member of aninternational association, a Catholic
association, as a scientific advisor.

(11:53):
So, you know, I've seen atremendous amount of these cases.
My former academic chairmanwho, who is a Catholic, he's retired
now, but you know, he wrotethat I've seen more of these cases
than anybody, any doctor inthe world and probably in history.
So I have this evidence basethat allows me to speak out about

(12:19):
it with confidence and all that.
But I don't mean to implythat, you know, there, there are
plenty of Christian andCatholic psychiatrists who essentially,
you know, believe what I do.
And you know, we all kind ofhave to use our own wits to differentiate
those two conditions.

(12:39):
I don't, I don't particularlythink it's a good idea to have anything
official from, from theAmerican Psychiatric association
attempting to tease that outbecause you got to remember, I'm
very committed to, to thescientific method.
Yes, you are.
Yeah.
And that's what I love aboutyour work actually is you are but

(12:59):
the very much empirical.
But the scientific method canonly take you so far.
Yes.
You know, then you have torealize that there are, you know,
non material realities thatare impossible to, you know, adjudicate
by, by what we now know as themodern scientific method.

(13:24):
You can't do experiments, youknow, when you're dealing with evil
spirits.
No, absolutely no.
But I think what's importantthough for people to recognize out
there as well is that whenwe're looking at science, some of
the phenomena that isexperienced, anomalous phenomena,
goes beyond scientific understanding.

(13:49):
And you make that very clear.
In demonic force, you makethat clear.
And the cases that we'vediscussed, and even the work in the
past with other cases, there'sclearly phenomena that goes beyond
the realms of scientific understanding.
And that to me is a massivemove forward, a massive sign.

(14:09):
And for someone like yourselfto come out with the history and
the professionalism and theskills that you have to effectively
kind of change the paradigmwithin the science, within science,
because of your approach to.
Surely begs the question thatwe should be looking at it more of

(14:32):
a serious issue.
Obviously there's cases thatgrow that are developing all the
time and it involves, and alsoI Want to also make it clear that
when we talk about this,Richard, as well, yes, we're from
a Catholicism point of view,because we both understand that.
But there are strategies,there are histories within all faiths,

(14:56):
within the Muslim faith,within Buddhism.
And so it's not just strictlydown to Christianity that demons
exist.
They're named, and they'reunderstood as different concepts
in various fields.
But I think the parallel isthat experiences, lived experience

(15:19):
and anomalous phenomena thatgoes beyond science should make us
think and question more.
Well, thank you for the compliment.
And I don't disagree with theway you're framing it.
It's just that the way theword science is used in the modern
world is not necessarily, youknow, here I'm going to put my former

(15:42):
classicist hat on from Princeton.
You know, the word sciencereally means knowledge.
Yeah.
And, you know, I believe thatwhat I write about, Jock, is genuine
knowledge.
It's just that it doesn't fitthe paradigm, if you will, of being

(16:05):
able to do scientific experiments.
In other words, you know, whenyou're dealing with, you know, even
human beings, but especiallywhen you're dealing with evil spirits,
you're dealing with creaturesthat want to confuse people and want
to hide people.
They're not going to be ableto be subject for experimentation

(16:31):
in a modern scientific sense.
They also, you know, areperfectly capable of interfering
with the study of them.
For instance, you know, I'vehad people.
Who come to me and say, Dr.
Gallagher, you know, you writeabout, you.
Know, anomalous phenomena likelevitation, like people speaking

(16:56):
foreign languages.
Why don't you videotape it?
You know?
Now, the Catholic Church, youknow, I've dealt with a lot of different
religions, but the CatholicChurch is, you know, where I've had
the most experience.
And they regard, number one asvideotaping exorcisms, for instance,

(17:18):
as a violation of privacy.
But what I've also noticed,Jock, is that people who try to capture
these things on videotape,often the videotape is interfered
with.
Yeah.
So they'll say, well, Dr.Gallagher, I tried to videotape it.

(17:41):
I had it on videotape.
But then the videotape disappeared.
So, strange as it may sound,you know, we're not dealing with
creatures who can interferewith our study of them, number one.

(18:02):
So they make it difficultbecause, you know, on the one hand,
they kind of want to attackand display themselves to certain
people, but to other people,they are very happy that people are
skeptical.
So it's a very hard thing to study.
And as I say, to People,they're not like Hollywood actors

(18:24):
that are eager to perform forthe camera.
They're just not going to do that.
It's interesting.
I think people need torealize, and I tend to utilize this
term spiritual intelligencesor nefarious intelligences, as I've
used, in terms as well asdemonic, because they're a lot more

(18:47):
intelligent than we are.
And I've had this argumentwith many people where they say,
well, you know, you can go inand prayers and cleanse or do this,
or we can't.
You know, why can't you catchthem on video?
Well, the millions of years,the thousands, I mean, not even time.
The intelligence is beyondwhat we can even imagine.
So the reality is, whatever wetry to do to circumnavigate in our

(19:11):
own field of understanding,they're always going to be able to
go beyond what we could evenunderstand, which is why we need
spiritual intervention, whichis why we need holy intervention
into these.
And I find.
And I know that you've foundthis many times, no matter what religion

(19:32):
you are or what experiencesyou have, it always does tend to
come back to the CatholicChurch, because many other religions
will approach the CatholicChurch for health help because they've
had the most experiencethrough the years.
Well, I don't want to be, youknow, overly chauvinistic about it.
Obviously, I get it.
Obviously, I'm.

(19:53):
I'm not only a Catholic, butI'm a faculty member at a. Yeah.
Catholic seminary.
So I'm a very Catholic guy.
And.
And it is true that a lot oftimes when the worst cases come along,
they wind up.
And, you know, I've seen thishappen even from people in other
religions.
For instance, you know, I hada very intelligent Hindu woman who

(20:17):
was actually a physician, andshe eventually had to turn to the
Catholic Church to get thehelp that she needed.
You know, in terms of, youknow, getting back to the question
of, you know, evidence and howmuch you can videotape and all that,
you know, those are tricky issues.
But I don't want to minimizethe other side of the coin.

(20:42):
You know, when people say tome, as a psychiatrist, well, Dr.
Gallagher, how does it feel tobe out of the mainstream?
I say, what mainstream are youtalking about?
I say, number one, you know,there are many mental health professionals
around the world who believein evil spirits.
You know, I mean, is it a majority?
Probably not, but it's, youknow, it's a significant number.

(21:04):
But, you know, if you talk about.
The beliefs of your averagepopulation, for instance, most Americans
do believe in Evil spirits?
Yeah.
Most people around the worldbelieve in evil spirits.
Maybe not in, you know.
You know.
More skeptical areas of theworld, like, like Western Europe

(21:25):
and stuff, but the vastmajority of people in the world believe
in evil spirits.
And here's where I'll put inmy, put on my professor hat.
You know, having studied theclassics throughout history, almost
everybody has believed in evil spirits.
Yeah.
So, you know, in the GrecoRoman world, you know, which was
pagan, and they believed inthe gods and the goddesses, they,

(21:51):
they knew that some spiritswere dangerous and could attack them.
In fact, one of the reasonsChristianity spread in the Roman
Empire is because what theyfound is that the Christian missionaries,
following the authorizationultimately from Jesus to the apostles,

(22:16):
that the, the Christian priestand exorcist had much more power,
successful power over evilspirits than their own pagan priests.
Sort of like the story ofElijah in the Bible, if people know
it where, you know, he, he wona victory over, you know, 500 pagan

(22:37):
priests, you know, so, youknow, I always have to emphasize
that I don't feel like I'm outof the mainstream.
I feel like, you know, modern,modern materialists are the ones
historically who are out ofthe mainstream because that is not

(22:58):
the way most people in historyand even most people in America,
you know, still think aboutthe non material world, you know.
Yeah.
I also think that there's,there's a lack of, I mean, obviously
the history goes by ancient.
I've read a lot about ancient Samaria.
The belief in demons, thebelief in evil spirits and the.

(23:22):
Right.
It really was ubiquitous.
Yeah, absolutely.
And this is what people don'tunderstand in Samaria.
You know, Samaria was one ofthe earliest writing forms and they
had, they left evidence thatthey believed in evil spirits.
But, you know, so did theBabylonians, so did the Assyrians,
so did the Greek world.

(23:42):
You know, we talk about theGreek world as being very rationalistic
and you had great philosopherslike Aristotle and Plato, but, you
know, they were also spiritual people.
They not only believed in thedivine, but they also believed in
malignant spirits.
If you are enjoying thisepisode of Deadly Departed, then

(24:04):
please share it with yourcolleagues or share it with your
friends.
And if you've got any ideas onanyone that you would like us to
invite onto the podcast for aninterview, then please let us know.
Once again, thank you forjoining us today and please remember
and subscribe.
God bless.
Why do you think, Richard,that so many people neglect to accept

(24:32):
the reality of evil spurs?
So even in my field, and I'mnot talking about mediumship, but
even in my academic researchand parapsychology, and I've had
this argument a few timeswhere they're like, there's so many
explanations for anomalous phenomena.
Yes, there is.
But if you haven't experiencedsomething like you've experienced

(24:52):
and witnessed anomalousphenomena, I have as well.
And so my conviction inknowing, I don't want to, and I use
the term knowing rather thanbelieving that there are evil spirits,
that it seems that the onlyway that you would accept it is if
you experience it.

(25:13):
And nobody really wants toexperience anything like it because
it scars you for life.
But there's enough evidencethroughout history that there is
something else that'snefarious that's out there.
And I always say to people,look, we only know evil because good
exists.
We only know hot because coldexists, and we only know light because

(25:36):
dark exists.
So why get to the point ofdenying the potential that evil is
out there?
And I know, I've read a lot ofpapers in psychiatry and even in
psychology and transpersonalpsychology where they try to label
evil as just some kind ofmental construct that really isn't

(26:00):
evil in a sense, but yet weknow that it exists.
What is truly evil?
Yeah, I mean, you know, someof it is kind of human common sense.
You know, when we look atsomebody like, you know, Putin and
Stalin and Hitler, you know, Imean, I think the common sense view

(26:23):
is that there was somethingvery, you know, evil being propagated
by those people.
Now, can you prove that?
I mean, you can't prove itlike 2 and 2 equals 4.
But I think it's a.
Such a common humancommonsensical intuition that, you
know, you just have to say, ifyou don't believe in it, you know,

(26:44):
does.
I can't help you.
You know, but you're right,too, that for anomalous experiences,
I mean, you know, I know.
I mean, I wrote a whole bookabout it.
I know that those experiences exist.
Now, do you have to experienceit yourself to truly believe in it?

(27:07):
Well, I mean, I hope not,because, you know, that's why.
That's why I and other people,you know, write books.
And it's, It's.
It's not as if the.
The evidence for this stuff isout there.
It's.
It's just more sort of, youknow, what we call in medicine anecdotal

(27:28):
evidence.
You know, it's people tellingtheir stories.
And there are thousands andthousands of people throughout history
who have reported this stuff.
So at what point do you say,you know, there's Not.
There's not enough evidence.
You know, when people ask me,you know, well, how come there's

(27:51):
not more evidence?
I say, there's plenty of evidence.
And they say.
I say, I'm not the one.
I mean, yes, I reported my evidence.
That's why I wrote.
That's a big part of why Iwrote the book.
Yeah.
But I say it's really up toGod how much evidence he gives us.
You know, I mean, you know,could he overwhelm us with, you know,

(28:14):
allowing demonic spirits to,you know, propagate their evil?
Could he.
Could he, you know, perform,you know, much more miracles?
Well, of course he could, but,you know, he gives a certain amount
of evidence.
It sounds a little, you know,a little arrogant almost, but, you

(28:38):
know, I always quote, youknow, the great Christian Catholic
apologist as well as geniusmathematician, Pascal.
And he said, there is enoughevidence to convince the true seeker.
And he said, there are enoughshadows to confuse those people who

(29:00):
don't really want to believe.
Again, it sounds a little judgmental.
I'm not a judgmental person.
You can't be a goodpsychiatrist and be overly judgmental.
But I think he was right that,you know, it really depends on how
people process the evidence,because, you know, the evidence is

(29:20):
out there.
I mean, there have been anumber of, you know, very wonderful
writers, Christian and otherwise.
Yeah.
Who have written about demonicpossession throughout history.
There was a German professoraround the turn of.
Early on in the 1900s whowrote a book with thousands of cases,

(29:44):
thousands of cases that hefelt were what you and I would call
anomalous experience,sometimes of a dark nature.
There's a friend of mine who'sa wonderfully prolific biblical scholar.
His name is Craig Keener.
He's not only wrote a book ona magisterial, modern book on miracles,

(30:06):
but he also talks about.
And I think he's working nowon a book of literally hundreds and
hundreds of cases of demonic attacks.
I mean, these books are available.
Yes.
For people to read.
You know, you don't.
You know, Craig Keener andthis German guy named Osterreich.

(30:27):
You know, you don't.
You don't have to take.
I say, you don't have to takeDr. Gallagher's word for it.
You know, every.
Every couple of years, I go toRome and we have this meeting, and
there's 500 exorcists at the meeting.
And, you know, they all havestories like my own.
I.
You don't have to believe me,you know.

(30:48):
You know, just.
Any of those people you couldtalk to.
Number One, and number two,they've written books themselves.
Yeah.
I'm going to get a littlespecifically Christian on you for
a moment.
I compare it to the following.
You know, when St. Paul, youknow, who had a experience of Jesus

(31:13):
himself.
Yeah.
When he went to Corinth, which was.
A little bit like, you know,going, going to a modern materialistic
city, you know, he said, youknow, you don't have to believe me.
He said if Jesus didn't arisefrom the dead, he said, I'm a fool,

(31:37):
you know, because, you know, I'm.
I mean, many of these earlyChristians, they not only testified
to their faith and Jesus'smiracles and resurrection, but they
got killed for it.
You know, I mean, you know,St. Paul himself was beheaded.
I mean, you know, the guy wasnot going to be beheaded if he, if

(31:57):
he was lying about his stories.
And what he said is to theCorinthians, he said, you know, Jesus
appeared in the flesh.
I mean, this wasn't some kindof, you know, hallucination or vision.
Jesus appeared.
Yeah, in the flesh.
People could eat with him, youknow, people could touch him.
He said he appeared to 500 people.

(32:20):
And he said, jock, you know,many of those people are still alive.
You can go talk to them.
So, you know, the idea thatthere isn't much evidence for both
miracles and demonic phenomenais a very short sighted view and
it's really more a judgment of people.
Yeah, I'm not saying, youknow, there are plenty of people,

(32:42):
again, I'm not judging people.
There are plenty of people whohave never really been presented
with the massive evidence.
I mean, again, that's part ofthe reason I wrote my book, to give
people an idea that he is aprofessor of psychiatry who knows
these people are not, youknow, psychotic or, you know, imaginative

(33:03):
or delusional.
And yet there's all this evidence.
You know, I write about casesin the book book of a woman who Levitated.
I write about cases in thebook of people go into a trance and
they're speaking foreignlanguages or as you see in your field
of spiritualism, people whoknow things that they would never

(33:24):
know otherwise.
I mean, some kind of nonmaterial entities are obviously in
evidence.
And that to me seems unassailable.
I mean, if you don't believethat, you don't really understand
the field, you don'tunderstand the evidence that's out

(33:46):
there.
It's interesting because Ihave one of my favorite.
The father of psychology, orpeople would argue is father of the
psychology of William James.
And I love William James andthe way he looks at things and I
can't remember word for word,but you go back to one of his quotes
where he talks about the veryfact that the position of demons

(34:08):
is not spoken about isterrible and it will rear its head
again because he actuallyrecognized that.
I mean, from his understandingway beyond looking at any archetypes
from Carl Jung or anything, heunderstood it as a potential real,
subjective and objective issue.
And I think you need to look back.

(34:30):
Even if you look, you gobeyond any religion.
You even look back at some ofthese scholars and parapsychology
that believed it and would see it.
And so William James is aperfect example.
The other thing that I do wantto kind of challenge maybe the Catholic
Church on.
And I think this notchallenge, but there's another.
I'm not going to mention thebook, but there's another book that

(34:52):
I've studied and read in years past.
And one of the things that Irecognized is that the power of discernment
seems to be lacking even ineven I think in the Catholic Church,
in Christianity, becausethere's a danger that you tend to

(35:12):
see the demonic everywhere.
I mean, there's books thatI've read that have been written
by religious scholars where itwas getting to the point that this
particular individual would beseeing a demon in a burger or in
a demon.
And you know, so this is why Ireally love.
And anybody who hasn't readred demonic force really should because

(35:36):
there is a lot of empiricismand there's empirical evidence, there's
anomalous phenomena that'sexplained from a scientific perspective.
But we also need to keep thateducation going because there is
the problem that people thinkthat possessed.
They're not.
And religious pastors, prieststend to also get to the point where

(36:00):
they see demons everywhere.
I think Gabriel Amorth was oneof the as much I loved all his work
and everything did I think hetend to see demons everywhere he
went.
And maybe there's.
Maybe there's a bit morediscernment that's needed there.
Well, you know, I actuallythink, Jock, you're talking more
about Christianfundamentalists and Catholics.

(36:23):
I mean, you know, I know manyCatholic priests.
In fact, I knew Father Amorthwhile he was alive.
And you know, he.
I mean, most of these priests,they're pretty educated guys.
You know, they're not jumping,by and large, you know, there are
a few exceptions, but they'renot jumping to seeing demons everywhere.

(36:44):
There are.
There are Christianfundamentalists who, you know, you
got to remember Catholicpriests do this as a ministry.
They don't make money off of it.
Once you get people who startto charge for their services, I tell
people you should stay awayfrom them.
Like.
Like the plague, you know.

(37:06):
You know, C.S.
lewis, who was, you know, avery, very educated and knowledgeable
Christian, including about the demonic.
Yeah.
I mean, he had.
He had the classic passage that.
I think it was from theScrewtape letters.

(37:30):
He had a classic passage whichI quote in my book, which is that
the demons are very happy whenpeople don't believe in them.
Yeah, but they were also.
They were also happy whenpeople get overly preoccupied and,
as you put it, see the.

(37:50):
See the devil everywhere orget it, or get immersed in, you know,
trying to communicate with the devil.
He said we have to avoid both extremes.
And, you know, Lewis was not aCatholic, but a lot of his beliefs
were very, very close,absolutely, to what the Catholic
Church teaches.
And I think his.

(38:11):
I think he was ahead of histime, Richard, actually, because
I love that book, and ifanybody hasn't read it, really, and
you want to understanddemonology, definitely the Screwtape
letters, there's a lot ofwisdom and there's a lot of knowledge
in there, and I think he wasway ahead of his time.
Well, you know, it's aparadoxical truth that on the one

(38:35):
hand, I mean, demons do showtheir colors at times.
In other words, you know, thecases I write about, the.
The possessions, the severeoppressions, even what we call the
infestations, those are themain categories of overt demonic
attack.
But it's interesting at thesame time, they sometimes do that

(38:57):
to, you know, to punishpeople, to sadistically, you know,
torture people, etc.
At other times, they want toremain hidden.
And it's almost like they havea strategy.
You pointed out how.
How very intelligent they are.
They are, because, you know,what we Catholics believe is they're

(39:18):
fallen angels.
And angels also are, you know,very high intelligence.
And it's.
It's interesting if you thinkabout it, because it's also confusing
to people at times.
They manifest themselves.
And obviously, you know, ifyou're attacked by an evil spirit,
you tend to know it.

(39:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
Even though there are peoplewho are delusional about it.
But on the other hand,especially in the modern Western
world, which is one of the fewareas of the world in world history
where people are skeptical ofevil spirits and they think, oh,
all these people are just, youknow, psychotic and stuff.

(39:59):
I mean, yes, it's true that,you know, psychotic people can only
imagine from theirhallucinations that they're being
attacked by spirits.
But, you know, that'sprecisely why, you know, doctors
like myself get involved inhelping to discern these cases.
But it's interesting at thesame time.
That, you know, you and I haveexperienced so many anomalous experiences

(40:24):
that we have no doubt thatthese things exist.
And I have no doubt that evilspirits exist.
On the other hand, to a lot.
Of other people in our modernsociety, they actually try to hide
themselves.
It's a tricky balance.
You know, it's funny because Ialso, many people have come to me

(40:45):
and they'll say, you know, Isaw this on a TV show or I saw this
on a paranormal show.
And they're talking aboutdealing with demons and fighting
them.
And I'm like, look, that's not real.
Because the reality is ifsomething seriously, if it was really
diabolical one, you'd bescared for life.
Never ever forget it.
It would constantly be in yourmind and you would be taken.

(41:07):
And it, it's not being likethat is not going to come out on
a TV show and show itself.
And you've got to realize thatthis is all show.
And when some, when, whensomeone is really subjugated or an
individual is subjugated by anevil presence, there is so much intelligences
behind it.
They're not just going to gocome out and show themselves.

(41:29):
And it takes a long time toidentify and deal with these things
and to discern it because.
And that's, I think, whereit's really important to educate
the public on whatever theirbelief systems is, is what you really
need to understand and thepotential that is out there and not

(41:51):
sensationalize it because Ithink it's.
Demons are sensationalized andI probably Hollywood hasn't done
us any favors.
Well, what Hollywood getswrong mostly is that yes, they sensationalize
it and you know, that's to be expected.
It's an entertainment media.
But what they also get wrongis they tend to think of exorcism,

(42:14):
Jock, as a magical ceremony.
Yeah.
As if you bring in the witchdoctor, the witch doctor says, does
the mumbo jumbo and theproblem goes away.
Exorcism has to be understoodand it's.
Understood by its bestpractitioners as a pastoral ministry.

(42:35):
In other words.
Something has happened.
Again, I'm not judging thepeople who get possessed, but something
has happened that has broughtthis on the person.
They've often turned to theoccult, turn to even things like
Satanism, which is rare but exists.
They've turned to somethingvery evil in their life.

(42:58):
I've had a Number of gangsters who.
I've interviewed who, youknow, turn to.
Some of these dark, you know,cults to get success.
And for a while they getsuccess until, you know, until, you
know, they.
Get caught or the police or even.
The demonic world turns onthem, and.
Then.

(43:19):
They have to reform their lives.
It's not just, you know, getan exorcism and the problem's gone.
If they're genuinelypossessed, they have to turn to God
and reform their lives.
That is part and parcel of theprocess of dealing with a possession.
And that's what Hollywoodoften gets wrong, because it acts

(43:43):
like it's a, you know, just amagic ceremony.
It does, like the battle ofgood and evil, and there's a whole
crescendo where.
And then they don't realizethat it continues.
It continues and it continues,and you need to.
You need to work.
It's interesting that youbring up, though, because what a
lot of people might not recognize.

(44:04):
I can't remember where Istudied this, but it is in papers
Hitler did actually take part in.
He had an organization.
I can't remember the name ofit, but he had an organization where
they took part in Sea on Seas.
And they were looking atcontrolling and harnessing the power
of the.
Of the demonic to win WorldWar II.

(44:29):
Yeah, I mean, you know, it'slike there are very few things in
history that are not controversial.
And I have met a few peoplewho challenged the idea that Hitler
was an expert cultist.
But I. I think you're right, Jacques.
I think there is some evidence.
There is.
That he.
That he turned to dark powers,which would also explain, you know,

(44:52):
why he not only had become anevil person, but had, you know, propagated
such enormous.
You know, evil on the humanrace and especially on, you know,
marginal communities, youknow, on the Holocaust and, you know,
not just.
Not just on millions of Jews,but on, you know, Catholic priests

(45:16):
and people who are defective.
You know, I mean, you know, the.
The evil almost cries out forsome kind of explanation that he
had.
He had.
And I believe you're right,that he had turned to some kind of
dark spirits.
Oh, yeah, he did.
I can't remember.
I mean, I'll.
Anybody who's listening, Iwill try and get back into my archives

(45:39):
and find it and see if it getsit, because it is very interesting.
History is very interesting ifyou understand or you're studying
in any academic way the occultand historical aspects of the cult.
And I do think where I mighthave got it was when I was researching
it in the Kabbalistic life,because there was a.

(46:00):
And I, again, I don'tremember, but there was a Jewish
individual during World War IIthat he did not kill because of the
knowledge and the informationor the potential insights that this
person had.
And this is where theinformation came from that he was

(46:20):
heavily involved not only inthe cult, but in satanic ritual and
to control demonic for his own.
His own purposes.
So.
And I'm sure he's not the last.
I mean, dare I say, I, youknow, potential other leaders are
influenced by evil spirits.

(46:41):
I'm absolutely positive withthat, for sure.
Yeah.
At the same time, you know, atthe same time, you have to heed your
own warning that you don't want.
To blame everything on evil spirits.
No, exactly.
People are capable of evil ontheir own.
Yeah.
You know, I mean, you know, several.
Categories of people in thebook I say, can often be confused

(47:04):
as if they're possessed.
You know, one of them is, you.
Know, psychotic individuals,schizophrenics who, you know.
Hallucinate these, you know,voices from evil spirits or aliens
or whatever.
But, you know, some of theother people are people who, you
know, are very suggestible andhistrionic, but also people.

(47:27):
With severe personalitydisorders, for instance, sociopaths.
You know, now clearly they'reevil, but.
You know, have they.
Have they actually turned to occultism?
I mean, some have, but I thinkpeople are perfectly capable of evil
on their own.
So, you know, this is, this isagain, why one has to be careful

(47:48):
and draw these properdistinctions between people with
emotional and character problems.
You know, I mean, we're allsubject to temptations and people
can, you know.
That doesn't mean somebody is possessed.
You know, if they, if they do,if they do some, you know, evil.

(48:09):
In their lives, you know, youhave to make that distinction.
I think it's important for usto make a distinction as well of,
of influence.
You know, not everybody is possessed.
Is possessed by a demon, butdoesn't mean they can't be influenced.
Personally, I think, or I knowthat murderers out there are people
that have carried heinous actsagainst humanity and against innocent

(48:33):
individuals.
There's been some cases in thepast few years that we know.
I won't mention because Idon't want to bring any to it, but
I'm absolutely positive thatthere has been demoniacal influence
in those lives.
It doesn't necessarily have tobe a possession, but influence is
just as bad influence.
And if you're, if you'respiritually weak willed, there's

(48:56):
a potential that you can comeunder influence and under oppression
by these intelligences.
Yeah.
What you're often talking hereabout is, you know, is again, you
know, the categories of trulymassive demonic attack tend to be
oppression, possession and infestation.

(49:19):
But, you know, we're allsubject to demonic temptation.
And then, you know, I mean, I.I would venture to say that, you
know, serious thinkers andtheologians in this area, there is
a debate about how much comesfrom our weak human nature and how
much comes from, you know,demonic suggestion.

(49:40):
I don't think anybody, youknow, has all the answers in that.
In that category.
I think.
I think the great Catholictheologian Thomas Aquinas, you know,
said something like, you know,10% of human evil is strongly suggested
by evil spirits and 90% isjust because of our weak or fallen

(50:03):
nature.
You know, that was oneestimate by, you know, a very knowledgeable
Christian thinker.
But I don't think anybodyknows for sure.
No, absolutely, Richard.
Obviously, Demonic Force is abrilliant book and is very kind of
academically oriented as well.

(50:24):
I love that.
But is there.
Are you working on maybeanything new that you might be bringing
out as a follow up to this?
I do a lot of writing.
You know, I've written.
In fact, I had sent youJacques, an article we published
with a woman theologian whowas a critic of Hans von Baltasar.

(50:44):
And, you know, you reviewed itand I mentioned you in the article
having an educated opinionthat this particular modern, what
I regard as a pseudo mysticwas, you know, was fooled and deceived
by spirits.
So I write a lot of technicalworks about that, a lot of articles.

(51:08):
I am slowly working on asequel to Demonic Foes.
Brilliant.
It really is about putting thecategory of demonic phenomena in
a broader context and writingabout not only that, but the paranormal
in general and also the supernatural.

(51:31):
You know, as a doctor writingabout miracles and, you know, miracles
are very analogous experienceto demonic phenomena in the sense
that, you know, it's hard topin them down and study it scientifically
in a modern sense, but that these.

(51:52):
These are genuinely realphenomena that can be discussed in
an intelligent way.
And, you know, just as demonicphenomena exists, there have been
many, many miracles throughout history.
As I said, there's a.
There's a friendly theologianof mine, Craig Keener, who wrote

(52:16):
a very magisterial book on miracles.
And, you know, it's just.
You read that book, it'scalled Miracles, and you read that
book and you.
I'll get that.
Yeah, you.
You read that book and yousay, my God, you know, there is so
much more evidence for thisthan I ever thought so.
You know, as a doctor, youknow, I have been interested in that

(52:37):
and I talk to people who'veexperienced miracles in their lives.
And so I thought I would writea broader book on, you know, both
the supernatural and the.
What we call the preternaturalthings that go beyond, you know,
natural explanations.
I love that.
I can't wait to that till youdo that.

(52:59):
That comes out.
You're gonna have to wait a while.
Because this, you know, I'm abusy guy and I know you are.
Yeah, I'm still a very activepsychiatrist and teacher.
Yeah, you are.
I teach at three differentinstitutions, so I have to scrounge
to find the time to writethis, this book.
But eventually, eventuallyI'll get it to you and you'll be

(53:21):
one of the first to get asigned copy.
Okay, excellent.
I can't wait to do that.
I can't wait to read that.
As always, Richard, I lovechatting with you and your work.
And essentially nobody knows this.
It's actually one of thereasons that I went down an academic
path was because of Richard Gallagher.

(53:42):
Because of Dr. Gallagher, whoat one point told me I was getting
closer, getting too old, thatI better get a move on if I was going
to head toward an academic career.
And so I did.
I took his advice and Iencourage that because.
Yeah, exactly.
You're an intelligent guy.
Now, I'm not going to hide thefact, Jock, that you and I don't

(54:02):
agree on everything.
No, we don't.
And that's the beauty.
We can.
We can discuss and we can meeteach other.
You, you, you know, you are a.
Someone who does believe inevil spirits.
We have that in common.
And that's a.
That's a big part of, youknow, why I think your work can be

(54:26):
productive.
And as you study itacademically, hopefully you'll, you
know, you'll.
You'll put down absolutely.
I think, you know, since mewriting Deadly Departed and you supporting
my work in Deadly Departed.
I know, I know.
Look back at it, Red.
And I'm like, oh, my God,there has to be a part two.

(54:47):
It has to be more academicallysound, and it has to be broader.
I think that's what's given methe interest to go even deeper into
widely.
And I think it's important aswell to educate the public from an
academic point of view,because for me, empirical evidence
is everything in everythingthat we do.

(55:09):
And if we can strive towardsgetting that evidence and even if
we can bring in.
I'm passionate about bringingin science and spirituality.
In some way that we can find,we can create a bridge between both
and that we can begin to maybeeven get some lived experience with

(55:30):
empirical evidence, somepatterns of evidence that might help
us to break boundaries andactually maybe even look at categorizing
things differently.
Well, you see, I see that as aperennial need.
And again, it's not as if yougot to remember, you know, Pope John.
Paul II wrote an encyclicalcalled Fides.

(55:51):
Ad Ratio, which is faith and reason.
And you know, certainly manyChristians and other religions too,
you know, feel there is nocontradiction between faith and reason.
You know, this idea that, youknow, we should take it all on faith
and not use the brain that Godgave us.

(56:12):
And you know, the Catholictradition, of course, is very, very
committed to the idea thatboth faith and reason are important.
So that's not a new idea.
Yeah, no, it's not.
What I think you're saying isin today's world.
Yeah.
These fields have sometimesbeen bifurcated.

(56:34):
Yeah.
And that it is important that,you know, you know, thinkers who
are knowledgeable about bothfields, you know, bring to the public
the idea that, you know, youcan study this stuff rationally,
even, even stuff of a nonmaterialist nature.

(56:55):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Richard, thank you for beingmy guest again on Deadly Departed.
Always a rivetingconversation, ladies and gentlemen.
Let me just show you one more time.
If you haven't read DemonicForce, I do recommend you get it.
It is brilliant.
One of my favorite booksbecause it does have a very scientific

(57:15):
grounding in there.
And it's a book you don't haveto believe in everything, but it's
a book that's going to makeyou think.
And if it makes you think, itmight make you want to research and
you might come to your ownconclusions in life.
And whatever you do, asalways, if you've got any questions,
please reach back out [e-mail] or Paranormal

(57:37):
Daily News.
Remember also that we arelaunching our new peer reviewed journal
where we will be distillingthe academic and making the academic
available to everyone outthere to help understand this and
more anomalous phenomena.
And hopefully, if I canconvince Richard, Richard may join

(57:57):
us on maybe a religiousexperience, editorial side of things.
But as always, Richard, it'sfantastic chatting with you as we
often do and I can't wait tohave you back on.
We go into this more and Ican't wait till you do a new book.
The next episode, if you like,of Demonic Foes.

(58:18):
Thank you for being here.
Demonic Foes is easilyavailable, and it's still.
It's still selling pretty well.
So I don't want to write acompeting book quite yet.
But, you know, I'm not amaterialistic person, but I know
you're not.
I do think that it's avaluable contribution to the field.
Oh, it is.
100%.
It is.

(58:38):
I recommend it to lots ofdifferent people.
It's on our site.
Go back and listen to thefirst episode that Richard and I
did as well.
It's fantastic.
And it's also on Audible.
I think we've got it.
I think I got it on Audible as well.
The Audible version is great.
The Audible version is fantastic.
When Harper Collins proposedan Audible, you know, I didn't like

(59:04):
the voices they sent me, so Iasked this guy whom I know, who's
a Shakespearean actor.
He did a marvelous job.
So if you like.
If you like an Audibleversion, it is great.
I've got it on Audible.
I got it on Kindle, I've gotit on Hardback.
So I've got it.

(59:25):
Thanks for the mention and thecompliment, Jacques.
It's always a pleasure talkingto you, Andrew.
God bless, Richard.
I shall speak to you verysoon, my friend.
God bless.
If you have enjoyed thisepisode, then we would love you to
review us on Apple Podcasts,Amazon Podcasts, or any other podcast.
App.
Reviews mean a lot to us andthey help us to reach more people.

(59:47):
If you've got any questions,then also reach out to us.
Thank you and God bless.

(01:00:16):
It.