June 23, 2023 • 67 mins
In today's episode, we're tackling one of the most enigmatic and contested phenomena in the world of the paranormal – orbs. Those glowing, mysterious spheres seen in photos and videos – are they spiritual manifestations or just by-products of our digital era? To help us unravel this mystery, we're joined by none other than Steve Parsons, a world-renowned paranormal investigator. He's seen it all, debunked many, and yet, he's still intrigued by the unexplained.
We'll explore the theories, the personal accounts, the science, and the controversy surrounding these mysterious orbs. By the end of this episode, you'll have a much clearer understanding of what they could be, and importantly, what they are not.
So, buckle up, dear listeners. We're about to dive into an illuminating discussion that will challenge your beliefs and make you question what you see. This is Deadly Departed. Let's get started.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Good afternoon, good evening, good morning, ladies and
gentlemen, whatever you are in the world, this is Jacque.
This is deadly departed, and I am absolutely delighted to have
my guest. With me today, has been a long
time since I've had a guest that's actually been a long
time, since we've done a really in-depth episode, and my guest
today is Steve Parsons. And if you do not know who Steve
(00:25):
is, then you do not know nothingabout the Paranormal world, or
the world of parapsychology because this mine is the seed of
control. Ever see if you like in the
parapsychology field and if really you're interested in the
say the things, then this is whoyou want to listen to.
We're going to dive straight into and we're talking about a
number of things today. But in particular, for all you
(00:46):
guys out there that run paranormal teams or mediums that
believe in orb phenomena we're going to find out is all
phenomena to. Is it fast?
Or is it just a figment of your imagination from your digital
camera? Welcome to deadly Departed, the
do's don'ts and dangers of afterlife communication, this
(01:10):
show discusses all aspects of afterlife communication, grief,
and breathing the Paranormal. And, of course parapsychology.
There's real stories, scientificdiscussion and most of all real
learning from Paranormal expertsand researchers.
Here's your host author of deadly Departed. round
(01:32):
evidential medium and spirit interventionist jock Broca's So
Steve, welcome to deadly departed.
My friend. How are you?
I'm very well. It's nice and warm here in the
UK. Thank goodness.
Yeah, you guys, you've got some good weather over there.
Actually, my wife said him another day.
(01:53):
They're getting better, where they're over in Swansea than we
are here. Yeah, not complaining.
Be raining. Tomorrow.
Probably woke up the you can getfour seasons in one day.
Steve, we can, and we do, in fact, we did yesterday, started
off cold and gray Misty. And then by the end of the day,
we had rain, we missed out the snow.
(02:15):
I don't think we had winter yesterday but then we worked 23
by the late afternoon. That's Celsius for Americans
your those you don't. So listen, we're people listen
to us all over the world. There's gonna be a lot of people
Steve that don't actually know how your and I'm surprised the
princess, the part normally, don't know you, then they don't
(02:37):
know anything and what I know I know If you're serious about it
than your Norm. So tell us a little bit about
your background, Steve in the Paranormal parapsychology.
How you managed to get into thisfield?
What were your interests one? Well, it kind of started off as
(02:57):
a kid because I just wanted to see a ghost, you know, I'd read
some of them. I mean it's as simple as that I
do. Thing, I think it was, I got a
copy of Guinness Book of World Records for Christmas one year
and then it said the most haunted house in Anger.
(03:18):
Look picture, Bolly, rectory. And I from based on that I
found, you know, because this isin the days before the internet,
you know, we have to go to library and get books out and I
got some books out by Harry price.
I remember in this a long time ago.
Oh yes, yeah so some books by Harry price and and Ooh, green
(03:41):
and Elliott O'Donnell and started to read about these
Ghost Hunters and you know, theywould sit on the stairs and the
dead of night armed with nothingbut you know, their god-given
senses, occasionally, a blunderbuss and the white lady
would drift down the corridor orthe Headless, you know, figure
(04:04):
would Glide silently up the staircase.
I thought that sounds so cool. I want to see a ghost So from
about age, five or six, I used to we had some broken-down
buildings that looked like your archetypal there was a farm.
There was a windmill or some others nearby.
(04:26):
And so I used to take myself offand I mean this was by date
because it was only six or sevento look for the ghost to.
I wanted to see a ghost and that's how it started.
It and gradually the realizationthat it wasn't quite as
straightforward as that. And, you know, it's not like you
(04:47):
see on television now. Will you just turn up for a few
hours? And there were demons and ghosts
and poltergeists and all manner of stuff appearing toward?
I had to wait a long time beforeI encountered my first spook.
And so gradually, you know, I love technology, you know who
doesn't and For my 13th birthday.
(05:13):
I got a cassette recorder, whichwas used to start taking with me
and little Kodak disc camera. And gradually, you know, the
idea of if I'm going to see a ghost and I'm going to give
myself the maximum chance maximum opportunities being
study, the phenomena be in the right place at the right time
(05:33):
and the equipment was the just to from it for me, you know to
prove to myself that I wasn't imagining it and you know the
years went out and the the desire still there.
I still want to see a ghost But it's you haven't you're actually
(05:53):
seen one yet. Yeah yeah I was I was lucky in
the end but it's become more of a realization that actually what
you're studying is not the Paranormal phenomena but it's
why people have these experiences, you know, people
say, well, do you believe in ghosts or?
Well, I believe people see ghosts and they, you know, they
(06:16):
report these. So it's kind of like grown into
what I want. In a why, you know, I accept the
reality of the experience. But now I want to understand why
some people do some people. Don't why I had to wait so many
years and other people, you know, exact Bagans, every time
he walks into a building I always he's a don't even listen.
(06:40):
Yeah let's not even go there. I even tried wearing a bra smart
shouting dude but it didn't makeanything So, I mean you've
become quite an expert in the field than you've studied
parapsychology for many years. And fact, I mean, you've
appeared on National International media TV shows
(07:01):
most haunted. And one thing I like about your
work and is that you really havea good scientific ground and
things you don't just accept anything.
So you know why do you think then some people are more?
Because obviously we have bye. First, there's people that are
biased to Paranormal phenomena. If you believe in it, you're
(07:22):
going to see it, which will bring us a nice Edge.
We on this whole Lord phenomena but you know where do you see
the problem and bias is especially in experiences, on
certainly, in the case of Investigation, I'm people going
to I mean a lot of people go on and they're very popular, you
(07:44):
know, organized investigations Ithink.
Well let's just rewind a little.Let's go to most haunted than
the TV explosion that happened around 2000.
Yeah. To 2001 here in the UK which
then you know you and you have Taps and ghost hunters in
America that followed it and it I think it showed because ghosts
of always been a popular genre, you know they've always This old
(08:07):
copy a they've always sold books.
Some of the the big-name goes something like Harry price or
sloppy emails, arriving Harry price and Elliott has gone wrong
and Steven sorry. they, you know, they sold, you know, they
were big selling authors becausethe subject is popular but it
(08:29):
was Before 2000. It was, it was kind of like I'd
love to. I'd love to go ghost hunting but
people didn't know how to they didn't.
You know, it wasn't something. It was something that they like
the idea of and then the TV shows showed them that ordinary
people that the makeup Lady the camera, man.
(08:51):
Yeah, you know the rig with could could, in fact you know so
people started to form their owngroups.
And the other thing that is fairly unique about most haunted
was because they needed something to happen.
You know, because let's face it,you know, sitting on a set of
(09:12):
stairs, in the middle of the night, can be dull for the ball
and still they brought along Derek acorah and he could tell
him that if he because I mean itwas an entertaining television
program. Really gave me.
People are realizing that they could go ghost hunting, but the
(09:34):
Boggle Factor, you know, the thethe sort of The Benchmark for
having an experience is very lowin a lot of people because
they're going. Yeah, back in the 50s 60s 70s.
If you wanted a Spooky Night Out, you went to, you went to
the movies, you watch, The Exorcist or Poltergeist and you
(09:57):
had the crap scared out. Daddy.
Now you when people started going ghost hunting, it was kind
of an interactive scary movie that they were part of and that
they could control and to give it some semblance of
credibility, they called it investigating.
They, you know, they took gadgets with them that they'd
seen people using on television but what what you do find is the
(10:23):
expectation levels are high. And The Benchmark for having an
experience is very low. So it's like, if you can hear my
voice, can you make something happen?
It doesn't matter. What the next noise is going to
be. They will go, thank you.
Can you do it again? And then another noise all,
(10:43):
thank you. Can you do it again?
You know, if I was to go to be like I've done it three bloody
times what you want? My favorite one was, what you
always hear. Don't you?
You always here. We mean you no harm.
The dead for Christ's sake. What's the worst thing you could
bring a alright? Use our energy.
(11:07):
What's that mean? You know, it's like so when
something happens, it's confirmation bias.
They get what they're looking for, they get the bejesus scared
out of them. They hear, you know, whatever it
is, they want to hear. It's similar to a, you know, EVP
phenomena you know, they take the yeah that's another Yeah,
(11:35):
yeah. And I think that's one for a
round table there. Steve has got a lot of
experience with the TV and and people would obviously with
their bias and things and and and one of the reasons that you
(11:56):
and I can go together as you. You wrote a paper for part of
apart. Of the anthropology or great,
which is a great periodical. And I love that, I love that you
actually wrote about how orbs, how you can actually prove
definitively. The orbs are not the answer and
(12:17):
I want to kind of jump into thisis as we are talking about most
haunting evidence, because I remember and certainly for, in
my work in afterlife, research and mediumship, I know I got a
little bit hated because I kind of went well, you know, The
reality is is that the the orbs are not real phenomena and
unless there's real intelligencebehind them, and there is a
(12:40):
pattern to that intelligence andinteraction, then you can't
actually see it in and it would warrant further investigation
and at the moment you can't see what it is because there's no
definitive evidence but you do have in your paper, pretty much
a lot of definitive evidence that it is not true and I want
to jump into that. So Well, I'm going to start off
(13:03):
with the most. Yeah, go for that.
Well, what we start off with thewith the most haunted, funny
story, because I was on the couch for a one of the lives and
they were all out in the field and they captured orbs and they
said, let's go back to the studio and asked our expert.
So it's like, okay, so yeah, you're on the couch.
(13:26):
What do you think is, you know, what's your take on it?
I went I hope deaths final, And then the presents huh?
I said look, I said I'm a you know I'm a fairly intelligent
sentient bloke. Yeah.
And if you're tell me that afterI die, I come back as a stone
(13:47):
throwing soap, bubble. Forget it.
I don't want more. That's going to be a leader.
Let's just soak bubble throwing throwing small pebbles at
people. And, but what happened was in
the late 1990s, we bought a offers digital camera.
(14:09):
It was a Sony mavica. I think it had the resolution.
I think it was about point in nearly half a megapixel
resolution and we were using it.Primarily we built, we were
building three diet, you know, these In floor planning software
and using making 3D models of locations.
(14:31):
We're investigating. Yeah.
And we would, we would add to the models photographs taken
from the viewpoints of people who claimed, you know, something
had happened. So we could check that, you
know, could you actually see that from where you were claimed
to know where you were sitting or standing or walking?
So, the cap. That's what the camera was there
(14:51):
for. And also, it was a good way of
recording. You know, cheaply locations.
But we started to notice, is these little blob, these little
circular blobs, and we're payingon the pictures, and we were
right. What are these?
These are unusual were not, you know?
(15:12):
We, we don't expect them, what can they be?
And we Christen them like balls,just because that's what we
know, we just these little more light, but there is no deeper
two-dimensional circular, we should call them like discs and
something. But you know, we call light
poles around about the same time, there's an American team
(15:35):
who were also using a digital camera and this was in the days
of bulletin boards and they are they I think they were crisp,
they could Kristen them ort and we fell in line with, with that
dish. Description as well.
And we would getting them fairlyoften in locations that we're
(15:56):
investigating. And we were we got to the point
where they were becoming so common.
And this is what this is. What worry does?
We were getting them with depressing regularity.
So we reach the conclusion, based on that, that hang on.
This is two common. We're getting them too often.
(16:20):
So either the digital camera is the world's greatest ghost
hunting Gadget or were dealing with something entirely normal
here. And we did some experimentation.
And we did some playing around and we reach the conclusion that
what we were dealing with was a born, particles, water droplets,
(16:42):
and such like, We were fairly confident with that, but we
couldn't definitively proved that to be the case.
Until we had an experiment that we wanted to do for the longest
time using two cameras again to use stereo photography and
(17:05):
stereo photography has been around in the Paranormal you
know, Community since the 1920s you know Harry price had 3D
cameras but we but we could never come up with a system
whereby both. You know we could never make the
two shots. Absolutely identical because
you're dealing with two different And cameras.
(17:26):
Yeah, then about Fuji brought out a camera, the W3 and it was
actually one digital camera thathad two sensors to lenses.
So was effectively, everything was identical, they were matched
(17:46):
across the systems and later a Panasonic brought out a version
of Israel. This is when 3D was all the rage
but it for First time, it allowed us to, we saw this
camera promoted. We have, we've got to have one
of them. I wrote to Fuji wasn't imported
into the UK at the time, but we begged and pleaded and we got
(18:07):
one imported early from Japan. Wow.
And we swap. What we decided upon wisdom.
It's a series of experiments to use it in exactly the same way
that all of the people capturingorbs on their images would do.
So we just took it along in fullauto mode and use it as a point,
(18:29):
you know, as a point and shoot camera exactly the same as every
other digital camera with being used.
And the idea being, of course, if if the orb was a an external
phenomena close at distance fromthe camera then The Parallax
(18:50):
would demonstrate that. It would be in the same place on
two side-by-side. Stereo images.
If the if as we suspected what we were dealing with was a very,
small out-of-focus dust particleor water droplet, very close.
So within 2 or 3 cm of the camera lens itself, then it
(19:13):
would appear differently on the two stereo images.
And we took over 12,000 stereo purse.
So 12,000 individual pictures and we went through the
meticulously, you know, marking on were these discs, were these
Blobs of light were and about the same time cause the camera
manufacturers themselves had said, you know, the room.
(19:36):
Many of the digital cameras Contain now contained a warning
about these Blobs of light when you use your flash or for the it
for exactly that reason. But the digital camera, the
three-dimensional camera gave usthe ability to definitively
prove that this was a phenomena.It wasn't at the far end of the
(19:58):
room. It wasn't lurking behind a post,
you know. It was within one to three
centimeters of the the front element of the lens itself.
So now we publish that along with the earlier experiments,
where weird, you know, we were testing, other ideas to prove it
(20:23):
was water droplets, and born dust.
Which is the paper you read. And the response was, we had an
email within about three days ofpublication from a nice
gentleman. Who said, fascinating paper, I
(20:45):
fully agree with everything you say.
But are you aware that in picture number 23 in the
submission that it was because there was a load of pictures,
including the electronic versionof the paper and there is a face
Which just proves that you can never ever, ever, Shake
anybody's ability. Now, what we've always made
(21:07):
clear, I always provide only part of the story of those
Steve, Now, his real face was a real fake.
Always a joke, obviously. Yeah, you're just pulling my
leg. I'm forgot my forgot what you're
going to say, then That's cool. No, he's so he say he got in
(21:29):
touch. His was a real face in the
number 26 when he's convinced teaching.
But what I've always made clear is we were testing the phenomena
of the orb as a an artifact of digital photography.
And the reason it appears on digital cameras is because
(21:50):
digital cameras are very small, very compact the lenders.
And The distance between the lens and the Flash element is
very small, so you get are far higher potential for bounce
back. So it bounces you know the light
flashes off the camera hits the dust and come straight back down
the lens aperture. So you know, you don't get this
(22:14):
with dslrs with the flashes mounted, atop the camera where
you increase that distance or even rarer, you get it a lot on
infrared night vision of course because on Night vision CCTV,
cameras or video cameras, the infrared LEDs are not often
located around the lens or almost coaxial with the lens.
(22:35):
Mmm. So you get very high return
reflectivity reflection return rate, but we always made the
point that that's what we were looking at the experiment was
only ever to test the idea of whether the digital camera was
capturing something paranormal or something new.
(22:55):
Normal. And we always emphasized that
for hundreds of years long predating Photography in any
form. The were reports of balls of
light over here in Wales. We have the corpse cat can only
cough. Yeah and you have willow the
(23:18):
width when jack-o'-lanterns now they may be similar.
But they're completely differentphenomena.
So to say that, you know, the paper was dismissing all light
phenomena. All, you know, these balls of
Lights like Corpse Candles and jack-o'-lanterns
(23:39):
will-o'-the-wisps is erroneous because we were dealing with
their appearance on small form, digital cameras, why do you
think Steve in the I don't see anew age community of spiritual
Community, even in medium and mediums Community, mediumship
(24:00):
afterlife research, the have Basically attach themselves to
the reality of these orbs being Spirit phenomena.
Now, I understand, you know, I've witnessed wait phenomena
but this is ridiculous, I half the time.
Yeah, I mean it is pure pure belief.
(24:21):
It's a it's a, it's they want tohave something definitive to
show for their efforts to show you.
And there have been, you know, there are innumerable box
essentially. Through wolves and others that
have been written about how they've looked at orbs in
analyzed orbs and considered, you know, the different color
(24:46):
orbs represent different energetic beings or, you know,
Angelic beings. It's all in my opinion, it's all
desire. It's not make believe it's it's
it's It's deeper than that because to a lot of people to, a
(25:07):
lot of mediums and and investigators, you are, when you
explain to them, the process is a perfectly.
Well, understood physic physicalprocess, physical phenomena.
You are dealing with somebody. It's almost like you're dealing
with somebody religious beliefs.These are very deep set beliefs.
(25:33):
You know, and if people genuinely, you know, believe
that. I think with no lederman's, the
BBC, television personality, whonotably said, in the National
media that he believed firmly believe that his deceased
(25:54):
parents were returning as these little Blobs of light on
photographs taken with his digital camera, and he was
getting a degree of comfort fromthat.
Well, yeah, because I very that's longer than mine, it can
cause some trauma, I think as well.
(26:14):
And you know, you've got to be mindful of the ethics of, you
know, just dismissing somebody'sexperiences or beliefs and
simply say. Now you're talking rubbish.
It's because the camera is doingthis because you're you on many
of the, you know, we used to do a show Farm BBC Radio Show and
(26:36):
you would have people phoning upand they would explain their
experience. Now, without going into any
details, some of these experiences were entirely
explainable very quickly you know you but when they're
describing your experience, you go.
Yeah, I know exactly what the cause of that is, but they would
(26:57):
do riving a great deal of comfort from the fact that the
mother brother Relative whatever, close friend was
returning to them and giving this visible demonstration of
survival. Now, the we would never ever
(27:19):
dream of saying oh I should rubbish.
You know, it's we just simply said, well I'm really pleased.
You're getting some comfort fromthat and long may it continue
because as dr. Cal Cooper is, you know, been
considering is the the, the SelfCounseling of the bereaved.
(27:42):
Yeah, by, you know, getting comfort from, knowing that, you
know, you we survived bodily death.
Yeah. Absolutely.
You know, there is an ethic so in terms of orbs, if people want
to believe, I am going to do nothing but offer, you know here
(28:03):
is an explanation. This has been tested, it is
definitive it withstood scrutiny.
Yeah. It's through peer review
repeatable. I can create orbs to order on
camera. No.
What about what about? Let me start with what about the
You know as well as I do that, there are mediums there the
(28:24):
claim that they can create obstacle order without even any
homogeneous explain that away because this we're blind the and
I'm not taking anything away from them.
Perhaps that that's true for me.It needs to have a lot more
evidence for me to accept that but a lot of people claim, you
know, especially media under they can create orbs just
(28:47):
through their intention. Well, their evidence is usually.
And when I've, you know, one of been in that position, their
evidence is usually in the form of a photograph taken at some
location somebody's home or haunted location and if you take
(29:07):
a long a digital camera small form-factor digital camera and
you take a random group of 10 photographs.
You will find that there are these discs of light on probably
seven or eight of them because the air is intrinsically dirty.
It is full of you only have to look away the sun streams,
(29:28):
through sunlight streams, through a window to see all the
suspended dust particles in the atmosphere.
We were at Hammond castling, Massachusetts.
And we had the camera with us. We had the digital camera with
as the 3D camera with us and Wrong my friend and co-host on
(29:49):
goes Chronicles with. I had him stand in the middle of
the room and raise raise an arm up, you know, sort of, as if he
was grabbing something and I took, I took, I think eight or
nine photographs and on three ofthem there is an orb in just
being a close enough for you to say well it's his older.
(30:10):
It wasn't it wasn't, it was entirely you know random but if
you Take if you take 10 photographs, you will probably
find some were buried in on a computer derive, some worries,
the actual analysis of how common these this phenomenal was
in the early experiments. We downloaded more than 20, we
(30:34):
took a random selection of 25,000 images downloaded from
bulletin boards and internet sites of which, you know, we
were just looking for pictures that Taking these these Blobs of
light. These discs of lighting.
The vast majority of never made any mention of them, but they
(30:54):
were still learn on the left because these were taken on
these were holiday snaps. There was even if you naughty
bedroom snapped with orbs in them because we were, you know,
wherever people were putting digital photographs.
Yeah. We were, you know, collecting
them up to look for all types and we found they were
(31:14):
fantastically And, you know, it was a very high percentage of
small. Form-factor digital photography
that was containing these and webroke it down by by even by
camera manufacturer and take. You could also tell say the
difference in the camera, manufacturers by the, or not,
(31:36):
not not know what we could do iswe could say, if you know, your
Canon PowerShot, 300 was more likely than a Because it was a
physically smaller camera, the way the the the flash was
positioned to the lens and we could tell the make and model
(31:57):
because a lot of people back then didn't label the
photography. They didn't say like, you know,
Grammy at the beach, it was justthe basic file.
I am g dot, you know, and each manufacturer has a slightly
different way of labeling. And then you also have the exif
data which gives Gives you yeah.You know information about
(32:18):
because camera the shutter speedwhere the flash was fired.
So you know, if you had a small pocketable point and shoot
camera, you were very likely to get all packed.
Now, interestingly than the ratio of orbs has now dropped,
there are a lot rarer now than they were in the early 2000's
(32:40):
because we've all switched over to this type of camera.
Yeah. Is a software you need.
Very rarely uses the accessory light which is a soft LED light
that. Yeah.
And it uses it while photographyrather than using the accessory
light. So, the number of orbs is
(33:01):
actually decreasing in digital photography because we're now
using smartphones rather than the little pocket point and
shoot digital cameras of 15 years ago, you know, the four
megapixel power shots and where else you were?
I have I wanted to jump back to this.
The whole idea of people believein or people who have lost loved
(33:24):
ones believe in in orbs, and obviously, we don't want to
upset them. But do you also think that
there's, you know, that maybe there's a there's more of a
danger in them, putting the whole faith and trust and an orb
phenomena for Comfort, especially if you're dealing
(33:45):
with someone who's Perhaps you know going into the Realms of
prolonged grief disorder or somecan even borderline psychosis
because I would get the the not always going to get these odds.
Now I know I do a lot of grief counselor, I run I run a gift
Community around a gift give andI always try to educate in the
(34:06):
right way and say look you know,should you think that that's an
odd? Then we are looking for extra
phenomenal. Looking for a pattern will look
for evidence. We're looking for this now, the
next thing because I've Also witnessed the that people, then
that, you know, believe in it and put their faith in it and
they get comfort from it. There's going to come a time
(34:27):
where that, that's not as readily available, that it stops
like this, the change the form, the not got this thing and then
the borderline and the me, the really going into experience and
more trauma and more grief, because they're not getting it
back. I mean, that's part of being
human. Some people will cling on to
(34:48):
Ideas that give them comfort forlonger than is they don't go
through the grieving process. They don't complete the grieving
process because there are several, you know, there are
multiple stages of the grieving process and I think she'd be To
come through the grieving process.
You have to pass through all of the stages but we all know and
(35:11):
you know, my nursing career, I met many people who never for
what for whatever reason completed the grieving process.
And I think the takeaway from that is, if, if people are
(35:31):
locked into the grieving processand becoming ovary Reliant on
going to mediums or, or photography, or whatever, it is,
giving them Comfort to the pointwhere it becomes they can't
function without that input any longer.
Then, that's where you need grief counseling.
(35:53):
You need psychological intervention, absolute.
You need to help them move forward with their lives and it
would be, it would be disingenuous and unethical.
Uncle to allow them to, you know, in nursing.
We used to say what in Psychiatry, we used to say,
never feed the delusion. I get that.
(36:16):
The comes a point where you haveto break that cycle and in a way
the paper offering them, you know, have a read of this here
is a different perspective. Hmm.
Is you know, that's the I can't go any further, you know, I
don't have and you know, but I've referred people to
(36:37):
bereavement counseling. I've referred people to
psychological help ya because asa You know, I have my areas of
expertise and I don't pretend tostray into areas where I have no
externalities, that won't be a pickle and immoral of me, you
know it I'm not a psychologist, I'm a physicist and an engineer
(37:00):
and I have no medical qualifications.
I don't have qualifications in bereavement counseling or or,
you know, psychology. But I know people that have and
I know when, you know, And I think all investigators should
be that responsible. But you what you see is
investigators, who, you know, one minute they're there are
(37:23):
scientists with, you know, a gadget and the next minute
they're offering to perform an exorcism.
And then the next minute, they're offering a whole grain
bread. And I found that every every
investigator is a medium as wellfor god, fam.
Most of them are especially in America, well, the the
(37:44):
Paranormal, Vestigators, then mediums directs person and
technology and in my own life for me is the move from because
it did you know? Same here in the UK you have
these pseudo-scientific mediums who they know all the lines and
(38:05):
they always say well you know asa as a skeptical medium you
know, I am I you know, I'm but then they've moved into exorcism
and Clearance and areas that. You know, you have to wonder
what what Earth they're doing apart from, you know,
(38:25):
self-aggrandizement. You know, they're eager there.
Massaging their own egos, you know, with these quasi religious
rituals and clearances and, you know, I I've encountered it many
times in the real world, not just in the media were, you
know, some well-meaning and they, you know, the me Liam's
(38:48):
usually are well meaning there are no music, you know, they
believe holds because they've probably deluded themselves that
sprinkling salt, you know, around the place and waving, you
know, various herbes and spices after setting fire to them
smudging and all sorts of other things.
I mean yeah. If you wanna sprinkle salt
(39:09):
around great because I have to be honest like and in my book
deadly the part that I do talk about exorcisms and things like
that from a historical point of view but I do make very clear.
Get the Booboo sticks are not going to get away if there is
any potential and scientificallyverified, it's not going to
happen. If I mean, there are
parapsychologists who Advocate exorcism as being a helpful
(39:34):
recourse in some situations, in some Poltergeist cases.
For example, exorcism has provedhelpful but the experts in
exorcism are the church. Has, they are not some bloke,
you know, who lives around the corner, who's got himself, a dog
(39:55):
collar, some, you know, herbs and spices and starts flinging
stuff around in your house and, and, and chanting, in gibberish,
letting you know, I've, I've heard and I've heard that I
perfer an exorcist set actually say in the name of the holy book
and the Necronomicon. Now I didn't has love have been
(40:19):
written, you know, such sorry, so we just fell over such a, you
know, significant book in the Necronomicon, you know, he might
as well have said in the name ofre Potter and in see on
television now, you see this sort of Mumbo-jumbo.
(40:42):
Yeah, you know, so there's a lotof being up, there is a lot of
it, and if you know, I'm not telling people, you know, if
they believe in it and it gives them comfort and there are, you
know, there are responsible adult and want to employ this
person to burn Garden herbes andsprinkle salt around if you have
(41:05):
gives him comfort and satisfaction, then so be it
there. Is the placebo effect after all,
but empirically doesn't work, unless you have an infestation
of slugs. And then start sprinkling salt
around. He's incredibly eventually,
we'll get rid of them. I'm a big believer, anyway, that
there's no tools out there goingto do it.
(41:26):
And at the end of the day, if there was a serious problem than
is only ever going to come down a prayer and spiritual, you
know, awareness, at the end of the day, anyway, you know, I've
been in cases where people say, you know, effectively, they are
demanding Nothing will satisfy them short of an exorcism.
Yes. Well, in that case, then I will,
(41:47):
I will act as a bridge between them and one of the appropriate
religions Deliverance, ministers, but you and they will
have their own processes. They will, you know, they have
psychologists psychiatrists and medical practitioners, all of
which, you know, if you want if you go to the Catholic church
and say, Hey I want an exorcism.Yeah.
(42:09):
After the problem they had with the German Exorcism of Anneliese
do is Michelle. Yeah, but currently these
Michelle. Yeah, I'm sure they are now, you
know. They will do an exorcism
eventually if they decide, it's passed all of the criteria and
they are the people who should do it.
(42:29):
I don't know if you know dr. Gallagher Richard Gallagher,
I've got a lot of respect for dr.
Gallagher, he's a psychiatrist and he wrote, he's written a
number of books. He's head of Psychiatry for New
York is a friend calling, it my friend of mine and he is very
much of a very scientific opinion and he goes through.
(42:50):
He's connected with the Catholicchurch and he's he's been
involved in a number of exorcisms and but of course, to
get to that point as you'd writeit, as you rightfully see, Steve
it has to go through a lot, a lot, a lot of red tape very long
ago, set massively here. They don't just drop.
Yeah, they don't just rock up and start throwing water around
(43:12):
and prayers, but the Catholic marriage will carry out.
I'm bring on another subject because which you are
particularly an expert on and it's something that I
wholeheartedly accept as well because we talked about the
Paranormal teams going in. You know, people who are seeing
orbs and they come out with all the gadgets and everything else
(43:33):
they are. There is you make it very clear
in in your book, you've got guidance for, you know, you've
got gained snorts of invest again, as and then you've got
the other book coin equipment. That's from the spr that there
is no equipment out there. So whether it's an oral, Or
anything else. Here there's no equipment out
there that can actually measure a detect.
(43:54):
Ghosts told me there was the Holy Grail for investigators
something, you know, think back to the digital camera, you know,
when it was yeah. Using these balls at these Blobs
of light, it was like, oh my God, perhaps we do have that
Holy Grail piece of equipment, but no, and, you know, people
have been using a first spr investigation or the first
(44:18):
investigation that's documented using The equipment is 1898 on
1899, and that's be house and the investigators who that
people can look at the story from cells, but they decided
that there was some noise phenomena, which they thought
may have been attributable to seismic activity, was one of the
(44:43):
ideas. They were exploring.
They wanted to make a return visit with a phonograph to
record the And, and also seismograph to test the idea of.
And I think that's one of the very first documented intentions
of using equipment. Unfortunately, there was a legal
(45:03):
situation developed and they never were able to return.
But if you look at the well, I think the first screen portrayal
is probably Ghostbusters. Yeah.
And the gadgets that they were using in the movie but that
created an industry. And then, of course, you know,
Yeah. You know we've all got to pke
(45:23):
meter somewhere but if you lost a look at the movie Poltergeist.
Yeah. You know that zap fantastic
scene, where the, the army of spirits come down the stairs and
the camera pans down. Yes what it's locking.
This idea that equipment and technology is a route into
(45:46):
understanding the phenomena. In reality we don't have Single
piece of equipment were a hundred and twenty something
years on from that be house investigation and there is still
not a single solitary piece of equipment that can prove or
disprove the existence of ghostsSpirits poltergeists.
(46:08):
The Loch, Ness monster or yetis but what we can do with the
equipment. So, you know, should we not
bother with equipment? Well, of course, we need
equipment because it allows us to obtain.
Rectify. Subjective experiences.
Yes. If somebody says the temperature
suddenly went colder, you can verify that sound.
(46:30):
Yes we can. Yeah, we can objectify it and
say, if the recorder records it then it was a real phenomena.
If the temperature really did change as opposed to a
subjective perception of change.You know it.
People are fairly bad. At reporting the temperature,
(46:53):
you know and they use really flowery language.
Like it the room was so cold. It was like walking into a
refrigerator well the only refrigerator I walk into, I
broke my nose but what they're trying to say really is, you
know, they're trying to convey the Nature of the experience
(47:19):
that the room did suddenly on much colder.
Now if that if that is a is thatjust a response of the nervous
system, the fight and flight system?
Or is it an objective reality? Did the temperature, really
change? What we can?
We can vary, we can objectify that we can make measurements
(47:40):
that will give us a definitive answers.
Did the temperature change? JH was a real sound made you
know did a door closed somewhere?
Did a door open somewhere and that's why the equipment is
incredibly good at doing plus the other advantage.
(48:01):
Of course is equipment doesn't have any imagination, it has no
bias. It has no expectation.
Has no prior you know some desire.
And so if it records and captures something then you have
And of course you can then take it away and Equipment.
Also allows you to do things that the human, the human
(48:22):
investigator simply can't do because we're rubbish.
It staying awake for very long. Yes.
And and so if you want, look at something over a course of days
weeks or months, then the equipment, you know, you can do
that now, with, with the modern equipment, you can, you can
record, you know, almost indefinitely sound and pictures
(48:45):
temperature humidity. T all manner of different
environmental parameters. So the equipment is incredibly
useful and I've started to say, Well, it can't tell you what a
ghost is, but we can tell you what it isn't.
Yes, do you think did you think that it's the that the media
I've spoken with the Lloyd aboutthis a number of times as well?
(49:09):
The media can actually has caused more of a problem in
these Shores than is necessary. Because No, we have so many
people believe in and equipment and and believing that they can
pick up phenomena and attribute in that test but of phenomena
and teaching that this is the right thing.
Is it ignorant? Or is it?
(49:31):
We can we put the blame solely on the media and the shores?
It's not ignorant, it's gullibility.
And also there is a, if you lookat the items of equipment, You
know, this product placement going on, you know, somebody
will build something on their kitchen table or and they will
(49:52):
give it to one of the TV stars to use on the show and then you
two can what they got these great, these great, you know,
result from using it. Where can we get one?
Well, here's how you can get oneand it's only eight hundred and
fifty dollars as as seen on and there is this, there is a weird
(50:21):
effect that takes place when I was in New England.
I was in the fortunate position to be given use and access to
the SLS camera. The exact SLS camera that was
used by Zack on Ghost Adventures.
Okay, and I'd had, you know, andanother model.
(50:45):
So I knew what we were dealing with.
Yeah. The this is using quite simple
software. Derived from the Kinect camera,
the connect video gaming system,which is a very simplistic 3D
modeling system that uses a number of sensors to detect a
game player. And what it's really looking
(51:08):
for, because the lines of codingare quite small, what it's
looking for, are certain things within the freight.
And then when it recognizes these things, it sticks a little
stick figure on, yes. Now, one of the things it's
looking for is a vertical, what's called a Terminator,
(51:28):
which would say is ahead and then across something.
Now, if you aim, if you get an SLS camera, doesn't matter which
one but if you get an SLS cameraand you aim it at the corner of
the door frame, so you've got the upright Of the door.
Yeah. You've got the cross piece of
the hand if there is you know camera will almost invariably
(51:52):
when it sees this this group of Objects, its software will go
visit person there and it will pop a little stick man up as a
visual you know indicator that it thinks is a game player
there. So we took this group of people
out into a haunted location in New England with the S with with
(52:16):
the Ghost Adventures, SLS cameraand we have them making stick
figures. If you pointed there, we will
show you how to do it and they were making their own little
stick figure ghosts. Wherever we said, you know, we
pointed to the right doing the corner of that door.
Those are sick. Figure ghost, yes.
Well, is it? No rules.
No ghost, but it's looking. It's look.
(52:36):
Now, do it on the back of, you know?
So we had all of the people making stick figure ghosts with
an SLS camera and we thought, well, that's given them food for
thought, you know, we've now undermined the SLS camera, the
structured, light sensor camera,until we went back for a coffee
break. When a couple of the people came
(53:00):
up and said, Tom was fascinating, and I really
learned a lot, but it, you know,when Zach gets him on the
program and it's like, you know,and there.
Yeah. It's like, you've done.
Nothing to undermine people's belief at all.
That's the problem we do there is we believe in it.
(53:21):
I'm not going to buy. We had this We myself for a
number of years, have we used torun like a training camp called.
See You Want To Be a Ghost Hunter and it was a
parapsychologist and myself and we would take people through a
mixture of theory interactivity and then on a mental Ghost Hunt
(53:47):
and we wouldn't give them all ofthe, you know, the rational
science explanations and the whyit happens.
And what causes that That and and we've done this all day
we're up in Edinburgh. Hmm and they were off on the
mental Ghost Hunt and there was some excitement and then
somebody came running over. So you've got to come and see,
(54:09):
you've got to come and see this.We've got a spirit communicating
with others. Okay?
Then so what's usually hastened down there?
And they point to they had a video camera on a tripod and
they said whenever they asked a question, there was a red
flickering light. That was flickering in response
to their questions. Okay.
(54:29):
So we took a little more took a closer look at it and on the
back of the camera was a small. Red LED that flickered when the
camera was writing to its solid state memory is the memory
access light. So they would ask a question and
then they would watch intently watch this red light and after a
(54:51):
few seconds it would record. So I know we're flickered the
light and see it responded. Can you do it again?
Are you the murdered victim? Look it's flashing and but of
course the let the red light canidentify whether it's yes or no,
it would have to. I mean it would have to happen.
You'd have to Rather like with the Maglite experiment, the
(55:20):
Maglite torch flickering expect.What happens is if you watch it
for long enough, you see that inactual fact?
Because there is a kind of pattern, the computer will all
the camera will write to the memory once every x s or the way
(55:40):
with the Maglite, the time is After a while, becomes fairly
constant and predictable becauseit's based upon the expansion
and contraction of metal in the one of the Springs, but the
person will start to tailor the the the the speed at which or
(56:03):
the gaps in between the questions.
So that it will be fairly scattergun and random at the
start but they gradually use thestimulus of the light or right.
Whatever they're working and they slow down the rate of the
questions or they, you know, they leave a pause for the
(56:27):
spirit to answer what they're really doing.
The lightest trained them. Yes.
Okay, it's You actually see, youknow, we if you if you sort of
if you're boring and stand therewatching, you know you'll see
this this effect as they change the response to the stimulus.
(56:47):
So there is a the bring it upon themselves.
They're actually making it fit in any way, they can.
Yeah that, that rather than it reacting to them, they are
reacting to it. And so you get this, you know,
by the end of May Be 55. 5 5, 10minutes, you get quite a
(57:07):
correlation starting to develop.See every time I ask a question
the light flickers. Yeah, well it does now but it
wasn't five minutes ago, was it?It was fairly random for.
Yeah, well disparate the spiritsgot to learn how to use the
equipment right before we finishoff because we're coming up.
Then I want to ask you somethingbecause obviously, you your
(57:30):
friend, the problem and 90% or 99% of everything that you've
done your You've been able to correlate a natural explanation
to and you help people to understand that, but have you
ever been in your new career? Have you ever experienced
phenomena, where you live? Okay, we'll wait a minute.
(57:51):
There's I don't have an actual explanation for that.
Yeah. And if people think for one
minute that I'm a hard no cynical skeptic do not and
because And not because you cannot spend the length of time
that I've spent in some notable haunted locations were
(58:12):
identified were allowed to swear.
But weird happens you can see ifSteve and despite I was in a
weird shit happened. Yeah.
And it's I can count on the fingers of one hand.
The number of times in the past 50 years, that's happened to me.
But that I think is I, I find that reassuring.
(58:33):
During that it is so infrequent.Yeah, not as a sort of, not to
massage my ego to say, oh, you know, you can poo poo the rest.
But what we're dealing with is something that is almost by
definition rare. But when it happens, boy, do you
know people make it think that is so normal, that is there, I
(58:55):
mean, I remember chatting to Lloyd to, you know, I have a
great respect for Lloyd or back,but in one of things that we
were, we had mentioned, I think I actually might have been
taking one his classes and rain and we always expect phenomenon
to happen at night when it's quiet, but it can happen during
that, you know, it doesn't have to be that it has been during
(59:17):
the day or anytime. Yeah.
What is, what is the biggest thing for you?
Steve. What's the big thing that you're
waiting on? What is what would make your
career? Just the golden egg another
crack at the Enfield case or something similar.
Oh God. That's another that's another
episode because I think there are lots of memorable occasions.
(59:44):
Were an explanation. You know.
Yeah, I'd love to that brilliantor very Only you are, like,
completely mind blown by what's just happened?
Yes, but there are, there are some landmark cases that I think
I'm now in a position. Were I would like to tackle
(01:00:10):
something as big as and field. Wow.
The trouble is, I don't believe that would ever happen because
we live in, we now live in a world, were there are in the UK,
there's a little over 1,000, paranormal teams and, whereas,
in the past, they would go to the society for psychical
research or one of the other keyorganizations.
(01:00:34):
Now, you know, it gets you it just gets Trampled Under Foot by
well well intentioned, amateur investigators and I want to end
this segment if I may by sayingsand I in many in many fields, of
science, archaeology, astronomy,and others.
(01:00:54):
Some of the greatest discoverieshave always been made by
well-intentioned amateurs, and Ithink genuinely believe The
paranormal investigators are. In the right place at the right
time with the right sort of equipment and could produce
(01:01:15):
genuinely challenging, you know,the could then go to some of
these skeptical parapsychologists and say, look
sick that in your pipe and smoke.
It give me an answer. The problem was the problem is
they need the investigators themselves.
Need to seriously up the game and the quality of the data.
(01:01:37):
Data that they're Gathering. Absolutely.
Because that's why they're not being taken seriously. and I
hope my contribution in writing the guidance notes and ghost
ology and what I, what I do by way of hopefully educating is to
say, please go off and in investigate haunted houses but
(01:02:03):
just take a little more Kirby, alittle more thorough, be a
little bit more critical and youwill find, you know you will be
able to take Your data and make a psychologist life in misery.
It's a plea use, you know, you go ghost hunting, take your
(01:02:24):
gadgets and gear pieces of equipment, but use them
critically and in the consideredway and you will eventually get
that piece of evidence that you can take to Chris French.
Richard Wiseman is one of the other Skeptics and say stick
that in your pipe and smoke it. It give me an answer to that
(01:02:44):
one. That's brilliant, that that's
brilliant. Actually it reminds me of her.
That's that's, you know, that's that's my aim to try to get the
Paranormal Community to say, youknow, you're there, you're in
the haunted, buildings, you're in the right place, with the
right time. You've got the right equipment.
Messing about. No Steve.
(01:03:06):
Do you have? I think if I'm right, you've got
a quite as long as you're still running, but you've got a course
that you teach people. Well, it's called ghost ology.
And the next one is in the Republic of Ireland.
In September, the details are somewhere on its spook troop,
spook troop. Tours.
Check it out on Facebook. Absolutely roll.
(01:03:27):
You can send me the links or Steve.
I want to thank you for being onfor joining me.
I hope this is not the last timeI've thoroughly enjoyed it and I
there are many topics yet to even, you know, we've only
scratched the surface you'll be back on.
In fact, actually, I was talkingto Lloyd yesterday and Lloyd and
I were talking about where we'regoing to definitely get you on
this round table. Ladies and gentlemen, we've got
(01:03:49):
will have a round table coming up with a number of experts.
We will be taking a subject matter and looking at it from
belief point of view from the bikes point of view, from a
scientific point of view and allother angles so that we can
really get good education out there.
If you are a person who's interested in parapsychology,
not not and your ghost hunt. And anyway then connect with
(01:04:11):
Steve for Steve's what? Get the book.
Join the spr the guidance notes for investigators as awesome.
If anybody's interested in setting up the one team, then
really start with that book and if you know, they'll be notes in
the show notes. If you're watching this on
YouTube then down in the link you'll have details to any
Steve's education courses and books, he's written a number of
(01:04:33):
books as well. This is not the last time you'll
hear from it. And also, if you might have one
final plug, Go for it, plug it, plug away coming soon, to the
espares website, and you don't have to be a member or what a
called quick guides. So if you want the very basic,
boiled down Essentials of equipment techniques methods,
(01:04:58):
these quick guides will be available within the next few
weeks on the espares website. Absolutely free of charge
download the PDF print them out.So guys you will get a link to
that in our magazine as well. And paranormal, dealing use the,
we will actually promote those guides for the spr, and if you
are interesting, you want to join the spr will get a link in
the show notes, as well. I'll link to anything that Steve
(01:05:20):
is doing at least enjoy my, frommy point of view, I am a medium.
I've worked or two decades in this field and I used to be the
guy that believed in orbs and believed in every bit of
phenomena, but if you really want to be professional, if you
really want to make a difference, then learn the
science. Your spirit and learn and
(01:05:41):
balance everything out and always look for explanations and
do not just accept anything as real is true and is what
everybody thinks they're. So there I am delighted to have
Steve one. This will not be the last.
I thought all enjoyed this. I've learned Lords and I will
link also that paper to the or phenomena or to the has or
(01:06:01):
paper. If you've got any questions you
want to ask Steve anathan then send into the magazine
paranormal doing news.com and wewill put that Towards him.
Well, asking those questions andeducate yourself, guys.
Remember that? You've got a responsibility at
there and if someone's asking you to go to a potential haunted
home and it's not just a place, remember that families are there
(01:06:22):
and they are suffering and don'tjust go and all guns blazing and
looking for demons, looking for ghosts.
And using every tool that you can imagine, you can leave a
trail of Destruction. This is jock, this is deadly
departed and paranormal doing yours.
Steve final words before we My friend just up your game and
have a good time investigating this.
(01:06:44):
Fantastic Human Experience. Brilliant.
Thank you Steve. Thank you.
Thank you for having me. Hi there, ladies and gentleman.
Thank you very much. If you have purchased deadly
departed it means a lot to me. I thank you from the bottom of
my heart, for supporting my work.
And if you have an update already departed yet then
consider buying deadly, the partthat you can get it on Amazon or
(01:07:05):
you can get it in any bookstore,and you can show proof of
purchase and And join my closed group.
You can also reach out to me on Instagram at any time, a
spiritual medium. If you have a question, and I
will answer the other wonderful day.
Ladies and gentlemen, and thank you once again, God bless.
You've been listening to deadly departed with renowned
(01:07:25):
evidential medium and author. Jock Brokers.
If you, like what you've heard? Make sure to pick up a copy of
the deadly departed. Book, don't forget to share the
episodes, and send in your questions to us about anything.
Thing paranormal and the afterlife tune in next time to
deadly Departed, the do's don'tsand dangers of afterlife
(01:07:46):
communication. Thing paranormal and the
afterlife tune in next time to deadly Departed, the do's don'ts
and dangers of afterlife communication.
Good afternoon, good evening, good morning, ladies and
gentlemen, whatever you are in the world, this is Jacque.
This is deadly departed, and I am absolutely delighted to have
my guest. With me today, has been a long
time since I've had a guest that's actually been a long
time, since we've done a really in-depth episode, and my guest
today is Steve Parsons. And if you do not know who Steve
(00:25):
is, then you do not know nothingabout the Paranormal world, or
the world of parapsychology because this mine is the seed of
control. Ever see if you like in the
parapsychology field and if really you're interested in the
say the things, then this is whoyou want to listen to.
We're going to dive straight into and we're talking about a
number of things today. But in particular, for all you
(00:46):
guys out there that run paranormal teams or mediums that
believe in orb phenomena we're going to find out is all
phenomena to. Is it fast?
Or is it just a figment of your imagination from your digital
camera? Welcome to deadly Departed, the
do's don'ts and dangers of afterlife communication, this
(01:10):
show discusses all aspects of afterlife communication, grief,
and breathing the Paranormal. And, of course parapsychology.
There's real stories, scientificdiscussion and most of all real
learning from Paranormal expertsand researchers.
Here's your host author of deadly Departed. round
(01:32):
evidential medium and spirit interventionist jock Broca's So
Steve, welcome to deadly departed.
My friend. How are you?
I'm very well. It's nice and warm here in the
UK. Thank goodness.
Yeah, you guys, you've got some good weather over there.
Actually, my wife said him another day.
(01:53):
They're getting better, where they're over in Swansea than we
are here. Yeah, not complaining.
Be raining. Tomorrow.
Probably woke up the you can getfour seasons in one day.
Steve, we can, and we do, in fact, we did yesterday, started
off cold and gray Misty. And then by the end of the day,
we had rain, we missed out the snow.
(02:15):
I don't think we had winter yesterday but then we worked 23
by the late afternoon. That's Celsius for Americans
your those you don't. So listen, we're people listen
to us all over the world. There's gonna be a lot of people
Steve that don't actually know how your and I'm surprised the
princess, the part normally, don't know you, then they don't
(02:37):
know anything and what I know I know If you're serious about it
than your Norm. So tell us a little bit about
your background, Steve in the Paranormal parapsychology.
How you managed to get into thisfield?
What were your interests one? Well, it kind of started off as
(02:57):
a kid because I just wanted to see a ghost, you know, I'd read
some of them. I mean it's as simple as that I
do. Thing, I think it was, I got a
copy of Guinness Book of World Records for Christmas one year
and then it said the most haunted house in Anger.
(03:18):
Look picture, Bolly, rectory. And I from based on that I
found, you know, because this isin the days before the internet,
you know, we have to go to library and get books out and I
got some books out by Harry price.
I remember in this a long time ago.
Oh yes, yeah so some books by Harry price and and Ooh, green
(03:41):
and Elliott O'Donnell and started to read about these
Ghost Hunters and you know, theywould sit on the stairs and the
dead of night armed with nothingbut you know, their god-given
senses, occasionally, a blunderbuss and the white lady
would drift down the corridor orthe Headless, you know, figure
(04:04):
would Glide silently up the staircase.
I thought that sounds so cool. I want to see a ghost So from
about age, five or six, I used to we had some broken-down
buildings that looked like your archetypal there was a farm.
There was a windmill or some others nearby.
(04:26):
And so I used to take myself offand I mean this was by date
because it was only six or sevento look for the ghost to.
I wanted to see a ghost and that's how it started.
It and gradually the realizationthat it wasn't quite as
straightforward as that. And, you know, it's not like you
(04:47):
see on television now. Will you just turn up for a few
hours? And there were demons and ghosts
and poltergeists and all manner of stuff appearing toward?
I had to wait a long time beforeI encountered my first spook.
And so gradually, you know, I love technology, you know who
doesn't and For my 13th birthday.
(05:13):
I got a cassette recorder, whichwas used to start taking with me
and little Kodak disc camera. And gradually, you know, the
idea of if I'm going to see a ghost and I'm going to give
myself the maximum chance maximum opportunities being
study, the phenomena be in the right place at the right time
(05:33):
and the equipment was the just to from it for me, you know to
prove to myself that I wasn't imagining it and you know the
years went out and the the desire still there.
I still want to see a ghost But it's you haven't you're actually
(05:53):
seen one yet. Yeah yeah I was I was lucky in
the end but it's become more of a realization that actually what
you're studying is not the Paranormal phenomena but it's
why people have these experiences, you know, people
say, well, do you believe in ghosts or?
Well, I believe people see ghosts and they, you know, they
(06:16):
report these. So it's kind of like grown into
what I want. In a why, you know, I accept the
reality of the experience. But now I want to understand why
some people do some people. Don't why I had to wait so many
years and other people, you know, exact Bagans, every time
he walks into a building I always he's a don't even listen.
(06:40):
Yeah let's not even go there. I even tried wearing a bra smart
shouting dude but it didn't makeanything So, I mean you've
become quite an expert in the field than you've studied
parapsychology for many years. And fact, I mean, you've
appeared on National International media TV shows
(07:01):
most haunted. And one thing I like about your
work and is that you really havea good scientific ground and
things you don't just accept anything.
So you know why do you think then some people are more?
Because obviously we have bye. First, there's people that are
biased to Paranormal phenomena. If you believe in it, you're
(07:22):
going to see it, which will bring us a nice Edge.
We on this whole Lord phenomena but you know where do you see
the problem and bias is especially in experiences, on
certainly, in the case of Investigation, I'm people going
to I mean a lot of people go on and they're very popular, you
(07:44):
know, organized investigations Ithink.
Well let's just rewind a little.Let's go to most haunted than
the TV explosion that happened around 2000.
Yeah. To 2001 here in the UK which
then you know you and you have Taps and ghost hunters in
America that followed it and it I think it showed because ghosts
of always been a popular genre, you know they've always This old
(08:07):
copy a they've always sold books.
Some of the the big-name goes something like Harry price or
sloppy emails, arriving Harry price and Elliott has gone wrong
and Steven sorry. they, you know, they sold, you know, they
were big selling authors becausethe subject is popular but it
(08:29):
was Before 2000. It was, it was kind of like I'd
love to. I'd love to go ghost hunting but
people didn't know how to they didn't.
You know, it wasn't something. It was something that they like
the idea of and then the TV shows showed them that ordinary
people that the makeup Lady the camera, man.
(08:51):
Yeah, you know the rig with could could, in fact you know so
people started to form their owngroups.
And the other thing that is fairly unique about most haunted
was because they needed something to happen.
You know, because let's face it,you know, sitting on a set of
(09:12):
stairs, in the middle of the night, can be dull for the ball
and still they brought along Derek acorah and he could tell
him that if he because I mean itwas an entertaining television
program. Really gave me.
People are realizing that they could go ghost hunting, but the
(09:34):
Boggle Factor, you know, the thethe sort of The Benchmark for
having an experience is very lowin a lot of people because
they're going. Yeah, back in the 50s 60s 70s.
If you wanted a Spooky Night Out, you went to, you went to
the movies, you watch, The Exorcist or Poltergeist and you
(09:57):
had the crap scared out. Daddy.
Now you when people started going ghost hunting, it was kind
of an interactive scary movie that they were part of and that
they could control and to give it some semblance of
credibility, they called it investigating.
They, you know, they took gadgets with them that they'd
seen people using on television but what what you do find is the
(10:23):
expectation levels are high. And The Benchmark for having an
experience is very low. So it's like, if you can hear my
voice, can you make something happen?
It doesn't matter. What the next noise is going to
be. They will go, thank you.
Can you do it again? And then another noise all,
(10:43):
thank you. Can you do it again?
You know, if I was to go to be like I've done it three bloody
times what you want? My favorite one was, what you
always hear. Don't you?
You always here. We mean you no harm.
The dead for Christ's sake. What's the worst thing you could
bring a alright? Use our energy.
(11:07):
What's that mean? You know, it's like so when
something happens, it's confirmation bias.
They get what they're looking for, they get the bejesus scared
out of them. They hear, you know, whatever it
is, they want to hear. It's similar to a, you know, EVP
phenomena you know, they take the yeah that's another Yeah,
(11:35):
yeah. And I think that's one for a
round table there. Steve has got a lot of
experience with the TV and and people would obviously with
their bias and things and and and one of the reasons that you
(11:56):
and I can go together as you. You wrote a paper for part of
apart. Of the anthropology or great,
which is a great periodical. And I love that, I love that you
actually wrote about how orbs, how you can actually prove
definitively. The orbs are not the answer and
(12:17):
I want to kind of jump into thisis as we are talking about most
haunting evidence, because I remember and certainly for, in
my work in afterlife, research and mediumship, I know I got a
little bit hated because I kind of went well, you know, The
reality is is that the the orbs are not real phenomena and
unless there's real intelligencebehind them, and there is a
(12:40):
pattern to that intelligence andinteraction, then you can't
actually see it in and it would warrant further investigation
and at the moment you can't see what it is because there's no
definitive evidence but you do have in your paper, pretty much
a lot of definitive evidence that it is not true and I want
to jump into that. So Well, I'm going to start off
(13:03):
with the most. Yeah, go for that.
Well, what we start off with thewith the most haunted, funny
story, because I was on the couch for a one of the lives and
they were all out in the field and they captured orbs and they
said, let's go back to the studio and asked our expert.
So it's like, okay, so yeah, you're on the couch.
(13:26):
What do you think is, you know, what's your take on it?
I went I hope deaths final, And then the presents huh?
I said look, I said I'm a you know I'm a fairly intelligent
sentient bloke. Yeah.
And if you're tell me that afterI die, I come back as a stone
(13:47):
throwing soap, bubble. Forget it.
I don't want more. That's going to be a leader.
Let's just soak bubble throwing throwing small pebbles at
people. And, but what happened was in
the late 1990s, we bought a offers digital camera.
(14:09):
It was a Sony mavica. I think it had the resolution.
I think it was about point in nearly half a megapixel
resolution and we were using it.Primarily we built, we were
building three diet, you know, these In floor planning software
and using making 3D models of locations.
(14:31):
We're investigating. Yeah.
And we would, we would add to the models photographs taken
from the viewpoints of people who claimed, you know, something
had happened. So we could check that, you
know, could you actually see that from where you were claimed
to know where you were sitting or standing or walking?
So, the cap. That's what the camera was there
(14:51):
for. And also, it was a good way of
recording. You know, cheaply locations.
But we started to notice, is these little blob, these little
circular blobs, and we're payingon the pictures, and we were
right. What are these?
These are unusual were not, you know?
(15:12):
We, we don't expect them, what can they be?
And we Christen them like balls,just because that's what we
know, we just these little more light, but there is no deeper
two-dimensional circular, we should call them like discs and
something. But you know, we call light
poles around about the same time, there's an American team
(15:35):
who were also using a digital camera and this was in the days
of bulletin boards and they are they I think they were crisp,
they could Kristen them ort and we fell in line with, with that
dish. Description as well.
And we would getting them fairlyoften in locations that we're
(15:56):
investigating. And we were we got to the point
where they were becoming so common.
And this is what this is. What worry does?
We were getting them with depressing regularity.
So we reach the conclusion, based on that, that hang on.
This is two common. We're getting them too often.
(16:20):
So either the digital camera is the world's greatest ghost
hunting Gadget or were dealing with something entirely normal
here. And we did some experimentation.
And we did some playing around and we reach the conclusion that
what we were dealing with was a born, particles, water droplets,
(16:42):
and such like, We were fairly confident with that, but we
couldn't definitively proved that to be the case.
Until we had an experiment that we wanted to do for the longest
time using two cameras again to use stereo photography and
(17:05):
stereo photography has been around in the Paranormal you
know, Community since the 1920s you know Harry price had 3D
cameras but we but we could never come up with a system
whereby both. You know we could never make the
two shots. Absolutely identical because
you're dealing with two different And cameras.
(17:26):
Yeah, then about Fuji brought out a camera, the W3 and it was
actually one digital camera thathad two sensors to lenses.
So was effectively, everything was identical, they were matched
(17:46):
across the systems and later a Panasonic brought out a version
of Israel. This is when 3D was all the rage
but it for First time, it allowed us to, we saw this
camera promoted. We have, we've got to have one
of them. I wrote to Fuji wasn't imported
into the UK at the time, but we begged and pleaded and we got
(18:07):
one imported early from Japan. Wow.
And we swap. What we decided upon wisdom.
It's a series of experiments to use it in exactly the same way
that all of the people capturingorbs on their images would do.
So we just took it along in fullauto mode and use it as a point,
(18:29):
you know, as a point and shoot camera exactly the same as every
other digital camera with being used.
And the idea being, of course, if if the orb was a an external
phenomena close at distance fromthe camera then The Parallax
(18:50):
would demonstrate that. It would be in the same place on
two side-by-side. Stereo images.
If the if as we suspected what we were dealing with was a very,
small out-of-focus dust particleor water droplet, very close.
So within 2 or 3 cm of the camera lens itself, then it
(19:13):
would appear differently on the two stereo images.
And we took over 12,000 stereo purse.
So 12,000 individual pictures and we went through the
meticulously, you know, marking on were these discs, were these
Blobs of light were and about the same time cause the camera
manufacturers themselves had said, you know, the room.
(19:36):
Many of the digital cameras Contain now contained a warning
about these Blobs of light when you use your flash or for the it
for exactly that reason. But the digital camera, the
three-dimensional camera gave usthe ability to definitively
prove that this was a phenomena.It wasn't at the far end of the
(19:58):
room. It wasn't lurking behind a post,
you know. It was within one to three
centimeters of the the front element of the lens itself.
So now we publish that along with the earlier experiments,
where weird, you know, we were testing, other ideas to prove it
(20:23):
was water droplets, and born dust.
Which is the paper you read. And the response was, we had an
email within about three days ofpublication from a nice
gentleman. Who said, fascinating paper, I
(20:45):
fully agree with everything you say.
But are you aware that in picture number 23 in the
submission that it was because there was a load of pictures,
including the electronic versionof the paper and there is a face
Which just proves that you can never ever, ever, Shake
anybody's ability. Now, what we've always made
(21:07):
clear, I always provide only part of the story of those
Steve, Now, his real face was a real fake.
Always a joke, obviously. Yeah, you're just pulling my
leg. I'm forgot my forgot what you're
going to say, then That's cool. No, he's so he say he got in
(21:29):
touch. His was a real face in the
number 26 when he's convinced teaching.
But what I've always made clear is we were testing the phenomena
of the orb as a an artifact of digital photography.
And the reason it appears on digital cameras is because
(21:50):
digital cameras are very small, very compact the lenders.
And The distance between the lens and the Flash element is
very small, so you get are far higher potential for bounce
back. So it bounces you know the light
flashes off the camera hits the dust and come straight back down
the lens aperture. So you know, you don't get this
(22:14):
with dslrs with the flashes mounted, atop the camera where
you increase that distance or even rarer, you get it a lot on
infrared night vision of course because on Night vision CCTV,
cameras or video cameras, the infrared LEDs are not often
located around the lens or almost coaxial with the lens.
(22:35):
Mmm. So you get very high return
reflectivity reflection return rate, but we always made the
point that that's what we were looking at the experiment was
only ever to test the idea of whether the digital camera was
capturing something paranormal or something new.
(22:55):
Normal. And we always emphasized that
for hundreds of years long predating Photography in any
form. The were reports of balls of
light over here in Wales. We have the corpse cat can only
cough. Yeah and you have willow the
(23:18):
width when jack-o'-lanterns now they may be similar.
But they're completely differentphenomena.
So to say that, you know, the paper was dismissing all light
phenomena. All, you know, these balls of
Lights like Corpse Candles and jack-o'-lanterns
(23:39):
will-o'-the-wisps is erroneous because we were dealing with
their appearance on small form, digital cameras, why do you
think Steve in the I don't see anew age community of spiritual
Community, even in medium and mediums Community, mediumship
(24:00):
afterlife research, the have Basically attach themselves to
the reality of these orbs being Spirit phenomena.
Now, I understand, you know, I've witnessed wait phenomena
but this is ridiculous, I half the time.
Yeah, I mean it is pure pure belief.
(24:21):
It's a it's a, it's they want tohave something definitive to
show for their efforts to show you.
And there have been, you know, there are innumerable box
essentially. Through wolves and others that
have been written about how they've looked at orbs in
analyzed orbs and considered, you know, the different color
(24:46):
orbs represent different energetic beings or, you know,
Angelic beings. It's all in my opinion, it's all
desire. It's not make believe it's it's
it's It's deeper than that because to a lot of people to, a
(25:07):
lot of mediums and and investigators, you are, when you
explain to them, the process is a perfectly.
Well, understood physic physicalprocess, physical phenomena.
You are dealing with somebody. It's almost like you're dealing
with somebody religious beliefs.These are very deep set beliefs.
(25:33):
You know, and if people genuinely, you know, believe
that. I think with no lederman's, the
BBC, television personality, whonotably said, in the National
media that he believed firmly believe that his deceased
(25:54):
parents were returning as these little Blobs of light on
photographs taken with his digital camera, and he was
getting a degree of comfort fromthat.
Well, yeah, because I very that's longer than mine, it can
cause some trauma, I think as well.
(26:14):
And you know, you've got to be mindful of the ethics of, you
know, just dismissing somebody'sexperiences or beliefs and
simply say. Now you're talking rubbish.
It's because the camera is doingthis because you're you on many
of the, you know, we used to do a show Farm BBC Radio Show and
(26:36):
you would have people phoning upand they would explain their
experience. Now, without going into any
details, some of these experiences were entirely
explainable very quickly you know you but when they're
describing your experience, you go.
Yeah, I know exactly what the cause of that is, but they would
(26:57):
do riving a great deal of comfort from the fact that the
mother brother Relative whatever, close friend was
returning to them and giving this visible demonstration of
survival. Now, the we would never ever
(27:19):
dream of saying oh I should rubbish.
You know, it's we just simply said, well I'm really pleased.
You're getting some comfort fromthat and long may it continue
because as dr. Cal Cooper is, you know, been
considering is the the, the SelfCounseling of the bereaved.
(27:42):
Yeah, by, you know, getting comfort from, knowing that, you
know, you we survived bodily death.
Yeah. Absolutely.
You know, there is an ethic so in terms of orbs, if people want
to believe, I am going to do nothing but offer, you know here
(28:03):
is an explanation. This has been tested, it is
definitive it withstood scrutiny.
Yeah. It's through peer review
repeatable. I can create orbs to order on
camera. No.
What about what about? Let me start with what about the
You know as well as I do that, there are mediums there the
(28:24):
claim that they can create obstacle order without even any
homogeneous explain that away because this we're blind the and
I'm not taking anything away from them.
Perhaps that that's true for me.It needs to have a lot more
evidence for me to accept that but a lot of people claim, you
know, especially media under they can create orbs just
(28:47):
through their intention. Well, their evidence is usually.
And when I've, you know, one of been in that position, their
evidence is usually in the form of a photograph taken at some
location somebody's home or haunted location and if you take
(29:07):
a long a digital camera small form-factor digital camera and
you take a random group of 10 photographs.
You will find that there are these discs of light on probably
seven or eight of them because the air is intrinsically dirty.
It is full of you only have to look away the sun streams,
(29:28):
through sunlight streams, through a window to see all the
suspended dust particles in the atmosphere.
We were at Hammond castling, Massachusetts.
And we had the camera with us. We had the digital camera with
as the 3D camera with us and Wrong my friend and co-host on
(29:49):
goes Chronicles with. I had him stand in the middle of
the room and raise raise an arm up, you know, sort of, as if he
was grabbing something and I took, I took, I think eight or
nine photographs and on three ofthem there is an orb in just
being a close enough for you to say well it's his older.
(30:10):
It wasn't it wasn't, it was entirely you know random but if
you Take if you take 10 photographs, you will probably
find some were buried in on a computer derive, some worries,
the actual analysis of how common these this phenomenal was
in the early experiments. We downloaded more than 20, we
(30:34):
took a random selection of 25,000 images downloaded from
bulletin boards and internet sites of which, you know, we
were just looking for pictures that Taking these these Blobs of
light. These discs of lighting.
The vast majority of never made any mention of them, but they
(30:54):
were still learn on the left because these were taken on
these were holiday snaps. There was even if you naughty
bedroom snapped with orbs in them because we were, you know,
wherever people were putting digital photographs.
Yeah. We were, you know, collecting
them up to look for all types and we found they were
(31:14):
fantastically And, you know, it was a very high percentage of
small. Form-factor digital photography
that was containing these and webroke it down by by even by
camera manufacturer and take. You could also tell say the
difference in the camera, manufacturers by the, or not,
(31:36):
not not know what we could do iswe could say, if you know, your
Canon PowerShot, 300 was more likely than a Because it was a
physically smaller camera, the way the the the flash was
positioned to the lens and we could tell the make and model
(31:57):
because a lot of people back then didn't label the
photography. They didn't say like, you know,
Grammy at the beach, it was justthe basic file.
I am g dot, you know, and each manufacturer has a slightly
different way of labeling. And then you also have the exif
data which gives Gives you yeah.You know information about
(32:18):
because camera the shutter speedwhere the flash was fired.
So you know, if you had a small pocketable point and shoot
camera, you were very likely to get all packed.
Now, interestingly than the ratio of orbs has now dropped,
there are a lot rarer now than they were in the early 2000's
(32:40):
because we've all switched over to this type of camera.
Yeah. Is a software you need.
Very rarely uses the accessory light which is a soft LED light
that. Yeah.
And it uses it while photographyrather than using the accessory
light. So, the number of orbs is
(33:01):
actually decreasing in digital photography because we're now
using smartphones rather than the little pocket point and
shoot digital cameras of 15 years ago, you know, the four
megapixel power shots and where else you were?
I have I wanted to jump back to this.
The whole idea of people believein or people who have lost loved
(33:24):
ones believe in in orbs, and obviously, we don't want to
upset them. But do you also think that
there's, you know, that maybe there's a there's more of a
danger in them, putting the whole faith and trust and an orb
phenomena for Comfort, especially if you're dealing
(33:45):
with someone who's Perhaps you know going into the Realms of
prolonged grief disorder or somecan even borderline psychosis
because I would get the the not always going to get these odds.
Now I know I do a lot of grief counselor, I run I run a gift
Community around a gift give andI always try to educate in the
(34:06):
right way and say look you know,should you think that that's an
odd? Then we are looking for extra
phenomenal. Looking for a pattern will look
for evidence. We're looking for this now, the
next thing because I've Also witnessed the that people, then
that, you know, believe in it and put their faith in it and
they get comfort from it. There's going to come a time
(34:27):
where that, that's not as readily available, that it stops
like this, the change the form, the not got this thing and then
the borderline and the me, the really going into experience and
more trauma and more grief, because they're not getting it
back. I mean, that's part of being
human. Some people will cling on to
(34:48):
Ideas that give them comfort forlonger than is they don't go
through the grieving process. They don't complete the grieving
process because there are several, you know, there are
multiple stages of the grieving process and I think she'd be To
come through the grieving process.
You have to pass through all of the stages but we all know and
(35:11):
you know, my nursing career, I met many people who never for
what for whatever reason completed the grieving process.
And I think the takeaway from that is, if, if people are
(35:31):
locked into the grieving processand becoming ovary Reliant on
going to mediums or, or photography, or whatever, it is,
giving them Comfort to the pointwhere it becomes they can't
function without that input any longer.
Then, that's where you need grief counseling.
(35:53):
You need psychological intervention, absolute.
You need to help them move forward with their lives and it
would be, it would be disingenuous and unethical.
Uncle to allow them to, you know, in nursing.
We used to say what in Psychiatry, we used to say,
never feed the delusion. I get that.
(36:16):
The comes a point where you haveto break that cycle and in a way
the paper offering them, you know, have a read of this here
is a different perspective. Hmm.
Is you know, that's the I can't go any further, you know, I
don't have and you know, but I've referred people to
(36:37):
bereavement counseling. I've referred people to
psychological help ya because asa You know, I have my areas of
expertise and I don't pretend tostray into areas where I have no
externalities, that won't be a pickle and immoral of me, you
know it I'm not a psychologist, I'm a physicist and an engineer
(37:00):
and I have no medical qualifications.
I don't have qualifications in bereavement counseling or or,
you know, psychology. But I know people that have and
I know when, you know, And I think all investigators should
be that responsible. But you what you see is
investigators, who, you know, one minute they're there are
(37:23):
scientists with, you know, a gadget and the next minute
they're offering to perform an exorcism.
And then the next minute, they're offering a whole grain
bread. And I found that every every
investigator is a medium as wellfor god, fam.
Most of them are especially in America, well, the the
(37:44):
Paranormal, Vestigators, then mediums directs person and
technology and in my own life for me is the move from because
it did you know? Same here in the UK you have
these pseudo-scientific mediums who they know all the lines and
(38:05):
they always say well you know asa as a skeptical medium you
know, I am I you know, I'm but then they've moved into exorcism
and Clearance and areas that. You know, you have to wonder
what what Earth they're doing apart from, you know,
(38:25):
self-aggrandizement. You know, they're eager there.
Massaging their own egos, you know, with these quasi religious
rituals and clearances and, you know, I I've encountered it many
times in the real world, not just in the media were, you
know, some well-meaning and they, you know, the me Liam's
(38:48):
usually are well meaning there are no music, you know, they
believe holds because they've probably deluded themselves that
sprinkling salt, you know, around the place and waving, you
know, various herbes and spices after setting fire to them
smudging and all sorts of other things.
I mean yeah. If you wanna sprinkle salt
(39:09):
around great because I have to be honest like and in my book
deadly the part that I do talk about exorcisms and things like
that from a historical point of view but I do make very clear.
Get the Booboo sticks are not going to get away if there is
any potential and scientificallyverified, it's not going to
happen. If I mean, there are
parapsychologists who Advocate exorcism as being a helpful
(39:34):
recourse in some situations, in some Poltergeist cases.
For example, exorcism has provedhelpful but the experts in
exorcism are the church. Has, they are not some bloke,
you know, who lives around the corner, who's got himself, a dog
(39:55):
collar, some, you know, herbs and spices and starts flinging
stuff around in your house and, and, and chanting, in gibberish,
letting you know, I've, I've heard and I've heard that I
perfer an exorcist set actually say in the name of the holy book
and the Necronomicon. Now I didn't has love have been
(40:19):
written, you know, such sorry, so we just fell over such a, you
know, significant book in the Necronomicon, you know, he might
as well have said in the name ofre Potter and in see on
television now, you see this sort of Mumbo-jumbo.
(40:42):
Yeah, you know, so there's a lotof being up, there is a lot of
it, and if you know, I'm not telling people, you know, if
they believe in it and it gives them comfort and there are, you
know, there are responsible adult and want to employ this
person to burn Garden herbes andsprinkle salt around if you have
(41:05):
gives him comfort and satisfaction, then so be it
there. Is the placebo effect after all,
but empirically doesn't work, unless you have an infestation
of slugs. And then start sprinkling salt
around. He's incredibly eventually,
we'll get rid of them. I'm a big believer, anyway, that
there's no tools out there goingto do it.
(41:26):
And at the end of the day, if there was a serious problem than
is only ever going to come down a prayer and spiritual, you
know, awareness, at the end of the day, anyway, you know, I've
been in cases where people say, you know, effectively, they are
demanding Nothing will satisfy them short of an exorcism.
Yes. Well, in that case, then I will,
(41:47):
I will act as a bridge between them and one of the appropriate
religions Deliverance, ministers, but you and they will
have their own processes. They will, you know, they have
psychologists psychiatrists and medical practitioners, all of
which, you know, if you want if you go to the Catholic church
and say, Hey I want an exorcism.Yeah.
(42:09):
After the problem they had with the German Exorcism of Anneliese
do is Michelle. Yeah, but currently these
Michelle. Yeah, I'm sure they are now, you
know. They will do an exorcism
eventually if they decide, it's passed all of the criteria and
they are the people who should do it.
(42:29):
I don't know if you know dr. Gallagher Richard Gallagher,
I've got a lot of respect for dr.
Gallagher, he's a psychiatrist and he wrote, he's written a
number of books. He's head of Psychiatry for New
York is a friend calling, it my friend of mine and he is very
much of a very scientific opinion and he goes through.
(42:50):
He's connected with the Catholicchurch and he's he's been
involved in a number of exorcisms and but of course, to
get to that point as you'd writeit, as you rightfully see, Steve
it has to go through a lot, a lot, a lot of red tape very long
ago, set massively here. They don't just drop.
Yeah, they don't just rock up and start throwing water around
(43:12):
and prayers, but the Catholic marriage will carry out.
I'm bring on another subject because which you are
particularly an expert on and it's something that I
wholeheartedly accept as well because we talked about the
Paranormal teams going in. You know, people who are seeing
orbs and they come out with all the gadgets and everything else
(43:33):
they are. There is you make it very clear
in in your book, you've got guidance for, you know, you've
got gained snorts of invest again, as and then you've got
the other book coin equipment. That's from the spr that there
is no equipment out there. So whether it's an oral, Or
anything else. Here there's no equipment out
there that can actually measure a detect.
(43:54):
Ghosts told me there was the Holy Grail for investigators
something, you know, think back to the digital camera, you know,
when it was yeah. Using these balls at these Blobs
of light, it was like, oh my God, perhaps we do have that
Holy Grail piece of equipment, but no, and, you know, people
have been using a first spr investigation or the first
(44:18):
investigation that's documented using The equipment is 1898 on
1899, and that's be house and the investigators who that
people can look at the story from cells, but they decided
that there was some noise phenomena, which they thought
may have been attributable to seismic activity, was one of the
(44:43):
ideas. They were exploring.
They wanted to make a return visit with a phonograph to
record the And, and also seismograph to test the idea of.
And I think that's one of the very first documented intentions
of using equipment. Unfortunately, there was a legal
(45:03):
situation developed and they never were able to return.
But if you look at the well, I think the first screen portrayal
is probably Ghostbusters. Yeah.
And the gadgets that they were using in the movie but that
created an industry. And then, of course, you know,
Yeah. You know we've all got to pke
(45:23):
meter somewhere but if you lost a look at the movie Poltergeist.
Yeah. You know that zap fantastic
scene, where the, the army of spirits come down the stairs and
the camera pans down. Yes what it's locking.
This idea that equipment and technology is a route into
(45:46):
understanding the phenomena. In reality we don't have Single
piece of equipment were a hundred and twenty something
years on from that be house investigation and there is still
not a single solitary piece of equipment that can prove or
disprove the existence of ghostsSpirits poltergeists.
(46:08):
The Loch, Ness monster or yetis but what we can do with the
equipment. So, you know, should we not
bother with equipment? Well, of course, we need
equipment because it allows us to obtain.
Rectify. Subjective experiences.
Yes. If somebody says the temperature
suddenly went colder, you can verify that sound.
(46:30):
Yes we can. Yeah, we can objectify it and
say, if the recorder records it then it was a real phenomena.
If the temperature really did change as opposed to a
subjective perception of change.You know it.
People are fairly bad. At reporting the temperature,
(46:53):
you know and they use really flowery language.
Like it the room was so cold. It was like walking into a
refrigerator well the only refrigerator I walk into, I
broke my nose but what they're trying to say really is, you
know, they're trying to convey the Nature of the experience
(47:19):
that the room did suddenly on much colder.
Now if that if that is a is thatjust a response of the nervous
system, the fight and flight system?
Or is it an objective reality? Did the temperature, really
change? What we can?
We can vary, we can objectify that we can make measurements
(47:40):
that will give us a definitive answers.
Did the temperature change? JH was a real sound made you
know did a door closed somewhere?
Did a door open somewhere and that's why the equipment is
incredibly good at doing plus the other advantage.
(48:01):
Of course is equipment doesn't have any imagination, it has no
bias. It has no expectation.
Has no prior you know some desire.
And so if it records and captures something then you have
And of course you can then take it away and Equipment.
Also allows you to do things that the human, the human
(48:22):
investigator simply can't do because we're rubbish.
It staying awake for very long. Yes.
And and so if you want, look at something over a course of days
weeks or months, then the equipment, you know, you can do
that now, with, with the modern equipment, you can, you can
record, you know, almost indefinitely sound and pictures
(48:45):
temperature humidity. T all manner of different
environmental parameters. So the equipment is incredibly
useful and I've started to say, Well, it can't tell you what a
ghost is, but we can tell you what it isn't.
Yes, do you think did you think that it's the that the media
I've spoken with the Lloyd aboutthis a number of times as well?
(49:09):
The media can actually has caused more of a problem in
these Shores than is necessary. Because No, we have so many
people believe in and equipment and and believing that they can
pick up phenomena and attribute in that test but of phenomena
and teaching that this is the right thing.
Is it ignorant? Or is it?
(49:31):
We can we put the blame solely on the media and the shores?
It's not ignorant, it's gullibility.
And also there is a, if you lookat the items of equipment, You
know, this product placement going on, you know, somebody
will build something on their kitchen table or and they will
(49:52):
give it to one of the TV stars to use on the show and then you
two can what they got these great, these great, you know,
result from using it. Where can we get one?
Well, here's how you can get oneand it's only eight hundred and
fifty dollars as as seen on and there is this, there is a weird
(50:21):
effect that takes place when I was in New England.
I was in the fortunate position to be given use and access to
the SLS camera. The exact SLS camera that was
used by Zack on Ghost Adventures.
Okay, and I'd had, you know, andanother model.
(50:45):
So I knew what we were dealing with.
Yeah. The this is using quite simple
software. Derived from the Kinect camera,
the connect video gaming system,which is a very simplistic 3D
modeling system that uses a number of sensors to detect a
game player. And what it's really looking
(51:08):
for, because the lines of codingare quite small, what it's
looking for, are certain things within the freight.
And then when it recognizes these things, it sticks a little
stick figure on, yes. Now, one of the things it's
looking for is a vertical, what's called a Terminator,
(51:28):
which would say is ahead and then across something.
Now, if you aim, if you get an SLS camera, doesn't matter which
one but if you get an SLS cameraand you aim it at the corner of
the door frame, so you've got the upright Of the door.
Yeah. You've got the cross piece of
the hand if there is you know camera will almost invariably
(51:52):
when it sees this this group of Objects, its software will go
visit person there and it will pop a little stick man up as a
visual you know indicator that it thinks is a game player
there. So we took this group of people
out into a haunted location in New England with the S with with
(52:16):
the Ghost Adventures, SLS cameraand we have them making stick
figures. If you pointed there, we will
show you how to do it and they were making their own little
stick figure ghosts. Wherever we said, you know, we
pointed to the right doing the corner of that door.
Those are sick. Figure ghost, yes.
Well, is it? No rules.
No ghost, but it's looking. It's look.
(52:36):
Now, do it on the back of, you know?
So we had all of the people making stick figure ghosts with
an SLS camera and we thought, well, that's given them food for
thought, you know, we've now undermined the SLS camera, the
structured, light sensor camera,until we went back for a coffee
break. When a couple of the people came
(53:00):
up and said, Tom was fascinating, and I really
learned a lot, but it, you know,when Zach gets him on the
program and it's like, you know,and there.
Yeah. It's like, you've done.
Nothing to undermine people's belief at all.
That's the problem we do there is we believe in it.
(53:21):
I'm not going to buy. We had this We myself for a
number of years, have we used torun like a training camp called.
See You Want To Be a Ghost Hunter and it was a
parapsychologist and myself and we would take people through a
mixture of theory interactivity and then on a mental Ghost Hunt
(53:47):
and we wouldn't give them all ofthe, you know, the rational
science explanations and the whyit happens.
And what causes that That and and we've done this all day
we're up in Edinburgh. Hmm and they were off on the
mental Ghost Hunt and there was some excitement and then
somebody came running over. So you've got to come and see,
(54:09):
you've got to come and see this.We've got a spirit communicating
with others. Okay?
Then so what's usually hastened down there?
And they point to they had a video camera on a tripod and
they said whenever they asked a question, there was a red
flickering light. That was flickering in response
to their questions. Okay.
(54:29):
So we took a little more took a closer look at it and on the
back of the camera was a small. Red LED that flickered when the
camera was writing to its solid state memory is the memory
access light. So they would ask a question and
then they would watch intently watch this red light and after a
(54:51):
few seconds it would record. So I know we're flickered the
light and see it responded. Can you do it again?
Are you the murdered victim? Look it's flashing and but of
course the let the red light canidentify whether it's yes or no,
it would have to. I mean it would have to happen.
You'd have to Rather like with the Maglite experiment, the
(55:20):
Maglite torch flickering expect.What happens is if you watch it
for long enough, you see that inactual fact?
Because there is a kind of pattern, the computer will all
the camera will write to the memory once every x s or the way
(55:40):
with the Maglite, the time is After a while, becomes fairly
constant and predictable becauseit's based upon the expansion
and contraction of metal in the one of the Springs, but the
person will start to tailor the the the the speed at which or
(56:03):
the gaps in between the questions.
So that it will be fairly scattergun and random at the
start but they gradually use thestimulus of the light or right.
Whatever they're working and they slow down the rate of the
questions or they, you know, they leave a pause for the
(56:27):
spirit to answer what they're really doing.
The lightest trained them. Yes.
Okay, it's You actually see, youknow, we if you if you sort of
if you're boring and stand therewatching, you know you'll see
this this effect as they change the response to the stimulus.
(56:47):
So there is a the bring it upon themselves.
They're actually making it fit in any way, they can.
Yeah that, that rather than it reacting to them, they are
reacting to it. And so you get this, you know,
by the end of May Be 55. 5 5, 10minutes, you get quite a
(57:07):
correlation starting to develop.See every time I ask a question
the light flickers. Yeah, well it does now but it
wasn't five minutes ago, was it?It was fairly random for.
Yeah, well disparate the spiritsgot to learn how to use the
equipment right before we finishoff because we're coming up.
Then I want to ask you somethingbecause obviously, you your
(57:30):
friend, the problem and 90% or 99% of everything that you've
done your You've been able to correlate a natural explanation
to and you help people to understand that, but have you
ever been in your new career? Have you ever experienced
phenomena, where you live? Okay, we'll wait a minute.
(57:51):
There's I don't have an actual explanation for that.
Yeah. And if people think for one
minute that I'm a hard no cynical skeptic do not and
because And not because you cannot spend the length of time
that I've spent in some notable haunted locations were
(58:12):
identified were allowed to swear.
But weird happens you can see ifSteve and despite I was in a
weird shit happened. Yeah.
And it's I can count on the fingers of one hand.
The number of times in the past 50 years, that's happened to me.
But that I think is I, I find that reassuring.
(58:33):
During that it is so infrequent.Yeah, not as a sort of, not to
massage my ego to say, oh, you know, you can poo poo the rest.
But what we're dealing with is something that is almost by
definition rare. But when it happens, boy, do you
know people make it think that is so normal, that is there, I
(58:55):
mean, I remember chatting to Lloyd to, you know, I have a
great respect for Lloyd or back,but in one of things that we
were, we had mentioned, I think I actually might have been
taking one his classes and rain and we always expect phenomenon
to happen at night when it's quiet, but it can happen during
that, you know, it doesn't have to be that it has been during
(59:17):
the day or anytime. Yeah.
What is, what is the biggest thing for you?
Steve. What's the big thing that you're
waiting on? What is what would make your
career? Just the golden egg another
crack at the Enfield case or something similar.
Oh God. That's another that's another
episode because I think there are lots of memorable occasions.
(59:44):
Were an explanation. You know.
Yeah, I'd love to that brilliantor very Only you are, like,
completely mind blown by what's just happened?
Yes, but there are, there are some landmark cases that I think
I'm now in a position. Were I would like to tackle
(01:00:10):
something as big as and field. Wow.
The trouble is, I don't believe that would ever happen because
we live in, we now live in a world, were there are in the UK,
there's a little over 1,000, paranormal teams and, whereas,
in the past, they would go to the society for psychical
research or one of the other keyorganizations.
(01:00:34):
Now, you know, it gets you it just gets Trampled Under Foot by
well well intentioned, amateur investigators and I want to end
this segment if I may by sayingsand I in many in many fields, of
science, archaeology, astronomy,and others.
(01:00:54):
Some of the greatest discoverieshave always been made by
well-intentioned amateurs, and Ithink genuinely believe The
paranormal investigators are. In the right place at the right
time with the right sort of equipment and could produce
(01:01:15):
genuinely challenging, you know,the could then go to some of
these skeptical parapsychologists and say, look
sick that in your pipe and smoke.
It give me an answer. The problem was the problem is
they need the investigators themselves.
Need to seriously up the game and the quality of the data.
(01:01:37):
Data that they're Gathering. Absolutely.
Because that's why they're not being taken seriously. and I
hope my contribution in writing the guidance notes and ghost
ology and what I, what I do by way of hopefully educating is to
say, please go off and in investigate haunted houses but
(01:02:03):
just take a little more Kirby, alittle more thorough, be a
little bit more critical and youwill find, you know you will be
able to take Your data and make a psychologist life in misery.
It's a plea use, you know, you go ghost hunting, take your
(01:02:24):
gadgets and gear pieces of equipment, but use them
critically and in the consideredway and you will eventually get
that piece of evidence that you can take to Chris French.
Richard Wiseman is one of the other Skeptics and say stick
that in your pipe and smoke it. It give me an answer to that
(01:02:44):
one. That's brilliant, that that's
brilliant. Actually it reminds me of her.
That's that's, you know, that's that's my aim to try to get the
Paranormal Community to say, youknow, you're there, you're in
the haunted, buildings, you're in the right place, with the
right time. You've got the right equipment.
Messing about. No Steve.
(01:03:06):
Do you have? I think if I'm right, you've got
a quite as long as you're still running, but you've got a course
that you teach people. Well, it's called ghost ology.
And the next one is in the Republic of Ireland.
In September, the details are somewhere on its spook troop,
spook troop. Tours.
Check it out on Facebook. Absolutely roll.
(01:03:27):
You can send me the links or Steve.
I want to thank you for being onfor joining me.
I hope this is not the last timeI've thoroughly enjoyed it and I
there are many topics yet to even, you know, we've only
scratched the surface you'll be back on.
In fact, actually, I was talkingto Lloyd yesterday and Lloyd and
I were talking about where we'regoing to definitely get you on
this round table. Ladies and gentlemen, we've got
(01:03:49):
will have a round table coming up with a number of experts.
We will be taking a subject matter and looking at it from
belief point of view from the bikes point of view, from a
scientific point of view and allother angles so that we can
really get good education out there.
If you are a person who's interested in parapsychology,
not not and your ghost hunt. And anyway then connect with
(01:04:11):
Steve for Steve's what? Get the book.
Join the spr the guidance notes for investigators as awesome.
If anybody's interested in setting up the one team, then
really start with that book and if you know, they'll be notes in
the show notes. If you're watching this on
YouTube then down in the link you'll have details to any
Steve's education courses and books, he's written a number of
(01:04:33):
books as well. This is not the last time you'll
hear from it. And also, if you might have one
final plug, Go for it, plug it, plug away coming soon, to the
espares website, and you don't have to be a member or what a
called quick guides. So if you want the very basic,
boiled down Essentials of equipment techniques methods,
(01:04:58):
these quick guides will be available within the next few
weeks on the espares website. Absolutely free of charge
download the PDF print them out.So guys you will get a link to
that in our magazine as well. And paranormal, dealing use the,
we will actually promote those guides for the spr, and if you
are interesting, you want to join the spr will get a link in
the show notes, as well. I'll link to anything that Steve
(01:05:20):
is doing at least enjoy my, frommy point of view, I am a medium.
I've worked or two decades in this field and I used to be the
guy that believed in orbs and believed in every bit of
phenomena, but if you really want to be professional, if you
really want to make a difference, then learn the
science. Your spirit and learn and
(01:05:41):
balance everything out and always look for explanations and
do not just accept anything as real is true and is what
everybody thinks they're. So there I am delighted to have
Steve one. This will not be the last.
I thought all enjoyed this. I've learned Lords and I will
link also that paper to the or phenomena or to the has or
(01:06:01):
paper. If you've got any questions you
want to ask Steve anathan then send into the magazine
paranormal doing news.com and wewill put that Towards him.
Well, asking those questions andeducate yourself, guys.
Remember that? You've got a responsibility at
there and if someone's asking you to go to a potential haunted
home and it's not just a place, remember that families are there
(01:06:22):
and they are suffering and don'tjust go and all guns blazing and
looking for demons, looking for ghosts.
And using every tool that you can imagine, you can leave a
trail of Destruction. This is jock, this is deadly
departed and paranormal doing yours.
Steve final words before we My friend just up your game and
have a good time investigating this.
(01:06:44):
Fantastic Human Experience. Brilliant.
Thank you Steve. Thank you.
Thank you for having me. Hi there, ladies and gentleman.
Thank you very much. If you have purchased deadly
departed it means a lot to me. I thank you from the bottom of
my heart, for supporting my work.
And if you have an update already departed yet then
consider buying deadly, the partthat you can get it on Amazon or
(01:07:05):
you can get it in any bookstore,and you can show proof of
purchase and And join my closed group.
You can also reach out to me on Instagram at any time, a
spiritual medium. If you have a question, and I
will answer the other wonderful day.
Ladies and gentlemen, and thank you once again, God bless.
You've been listening to deadly departed with renowned
(01:07:25):
evidential medium and author. Jock Brokers.
If you, like what you've heard? Make sure to pick up a copy of
the deadly departed. Book, don't forget to share the
episodes, and send in your questions to us about anything.
Thing paranormal and the afterlife tune in next time to
deadly Departed, the do's don'tsand dangers of afterlife
(01:07:46):
communication. Thing paranormal and the
afterlife tune in next time to deadly Departed, the do's don'ts
and dangers of afterlife communication.
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