Dear Horse World, It’s Karl Cook: From Olympic Athlete to Mad Scientist in the Saddle (Sponsored by Connaway & Associates)

Every rider knows the feeling: you're in the middle of a training session and something just doesn't click. There's a disconnect, not just with your horse, but with your approach and mindset. It's more than just a riding issue—it goes deeper, reflecting the challenges and complexities of the equestrian sport.

Today, we've got a guest who isn't afraid to challenge the status quo. Karl Cook is an Olympic medalist and top-level showjumper who brings innovation and blunt honesty to the equestrian world.

In this episode, we'll delve into Karl's unique viewpoints on horse care, training, and the tools and technology that are changing how we approach the sport.

Known for his blunt and innovative style, Karl discusses the importance of focusing on fundamentals, avoiding quick fixes, and the tendency of horse owners to frame their horses as inherently unique to evade responsibility.

He talks about his latest projects, including the development of new bits, bridles, and sensors to improve training accuracy. Karl emphasizes the value of actionable data over mere feelings, highlighting a balance between subjective feel and objective information. He also discusses how simple yet disciplined adjustments can significantly impact riding performance and horse care.

Karl dives into his methods for integrating new horses into his program and the subtle differences in their management, stressing the importance of treating horses well, maintaining consistency, and the role of structured, data-informed practices. He advocates for a straightforward, action-oriented approach to overcome challenges and promote continuous improvement in both riders and horses.

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Learn more from Karl Cook and follow him on social media:

📱www.instagram.com/mrtankcook/

And you can follow us on instagram too! Click here 👉 instagram.com/dearhorseworld/

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If you enjoyed this conversation, don’t forget to subscribe, like, and share with those you know in the Horse World - it really helps us grow. 

For even more expert-led workshops, in-depth courses, and exclusive lectures designed to elevate your riding and horsemanship, visit www.NoelleFloydPlus.com and use code 'DHW' for 15% off annual memberships!

NF+ brings you direct access to top equestrian professionals, training insights, and a passionate community of riders dedicated to learning and improving.

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This episode is brought to you by Connaway & Associates Equine Insurance Services, Inc.

The friendly and knowledgeable team at Connaway & Associates brings together more than 30 years of experience to offer a wide range of insurance services, including horse insurance, farm insurance, and liability insurance.

Visit www.connaway.net to explore options, or get in touch today.

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
People wanna believe their horseis complete individual, again,

(00:04):
to abdicate blame for why theyaren't doing what they want.
Everyone says they want thetruth, but what happens when
someone actually tells it?
Carl Cook is a top level showjumper, Olympic medalist, an
innovator, and a rider who doesn'tplay by the industry's rules.

(00:25):
He's blunt, he's curious, and he'snot here to sell you shortcuts.
In this episode, Carl shares why we chasethe wrong solutions, ignore the basics,
and spend money in all the wrong places.
Why we avoid the hard fixes?
The discipline.
We lack the balance issues we won't face.

(00:47):
The simple changes that wouldactually move the needle and why
we tell ourselves the same story.
My horse is just different.
A story that helps us dodge responsibilityfrom building his own bits to
tracking every detail of horse care.
Carl's not chasing what's easy.
He's chasing what works.

(01:09):
Dear Horse world, it's Carl Cook.
Carl, welcome to theDear Horse World Podcast.
It's
great to be here.
I am so happy you're here.
I'm gonna tell you my nicknamefor you, the Mad Scientist.
I mean, the first word works

(01:31):
okay?
So I'm gonna explain to everyonewho's listening and watching why
I call you the Mad Scientist.
So over the years watching and.
Getting to know you.
I used to, when I would come tothe shows a lot, you'd pull me in
sometimes to the barn or into the, thealleyway, and you'd show me something
really cool that you were working on.
And I've always really admired thatkind of innovative mind that you have.

(01:56):
So I wanted to ask you, what are thelatest and greatest innovations products,
things that you're building, testing,trying, that we might not know about yet?
Yeah.
So what am I working on now?
Um, yeah, I released a new bit, um,last year, which I'm really proud of.

(02:16):
I designed a couple years back.
Um, didn't really planon releasing it, but.
You know, the opportunity came about.
We have some new versions ofit coming, coming out soon.
I have a new bridal coming out,um, that's taken a while, um, to
get to where we can actually, youknow, have production of inequality.

(02:38):
I made some studs for some of myhorses, uh, that are lighter weight.
Um, and, you know, trying totake that element out of things.
There's also work on trying to addsensors, uh, when you ride, not
in the saddle as or on the girth,you know, there's plenty of those.

(02:58):
Mm-hmm.
Um, but they don't reallytell you anything actionable.
Uh, they give you data, whichis cool, like cool, but it
only, it's only distraction.
Uh, a lot of it because it's notconnected to more actionable stuff.
Um.
So I've put tension sensors onmy reins and on my stirrups,

(03:21):
and I use them for training.
Uh, and then those could help some ofthe data points from some of the other
sensors, but you kind of need thoseactionable items, your reins in your
stirs, because that's all we talk about.
You know, when we ride is, oh, you, youknow, you were too late to sit up and
pull the reins to get that line done.
Or you yanked your horse off thefloor or you were, you had all

(03:45):
your weight in your right stirrup.
That's, you know, common conversation.
And these will confirm or denythat it will tell you exactly how
much time it took you to pull.
It'll tell you, did you actually yank orwere you actually have all your weight in
your right stir or was, were you balanced?
So you can actually just be more accuratewith your analysis of your rounds.

(04:09):
Okay.
This is really cool.
I kind of wanna dive into thisbecause you are doing something that
we've never been able to do before.
Yeah,
technology allows for whatyou're talking about, it
allowed for 15 years ago,
but not 50 years ago.
Well, no, but this is just anapplication of technology that we have.
It's nothing new, it's just aapplication that no one's tried,

(04:34):
I think outside of a, a lab maybe.
So why you're taking the oppo, theability for technology to accumulate data.
Why is data important to someone like you?
I think data informs decisions.
Um, and we have our feeling inour sport and we use that as data
right now 'cause it's what we have.
Um, and some people are more accuratethan others, but I think there are

(04:59):
things that you can benefit from ifyou actually have more objective data.
You know, like we spoke about yearsago, the footing measuring, you know,
tension measuring in your reigns and yourstirrups is a great continuance of that.
And it just helps inform your decisions.
You know, if you think you made amistake, but then the data shows you

(05:19):
didn't make the mistake, you thought,well, then you made a different
mistake that you have to go figure out.
But if you thought you made a mistakethat you didn't make, you'll go
down that road of fixing a mistakethat you didn't actually make.
Yeah.
And then you're like, whyam I not getting better?
Well, you're trying to fixsomething that wasn't broken.
Do you feel like what you're,this is a, to me, what reminds me

(05:40):
of is you're speaking of the, isthe contrast or the, the conflict
between subjectivity and objectivity?
I don't think they're in conflict.
I think they're critical.
I think it's important that people havereally well developed subjective feel.
Um, and I think it's importantfor objectivity to fill in
where it's most well suited.

(06:02):
I think if we then get to a pointwhere young riders are riding off
of data and they're not actuallythinking, and they're not actually
feeling, they won't be able tocommunicate at all what they're feeling.
They'll just look at a screen andbe like, oh, I did it perfect.
And that's, that's wrong.
You know, should you pullmore with your Right, right.

(06:25):
Or your left, right.
I don't know.
Maybe.
But if your goal is always to be evensometimes you need to have asymmetry.
Mm-hmm.
And if you're right off ofjust the data, you will fail.
And so it's important that theobjectivity is just a sub, uh, supplement,
um, to confirm or deny, um, yourfeeling and your trainer's feeling,

(06:49):
or your team, that sort of thing.
It kind of reminds me of.
The, what you're talking about, theimportance of subjectivity, the importance
of field, the importance of being able toapply data, but the also the ability to
collect data kind of feels like where artand science meet when it comes to horses.
I don't know if art's the right term.
I think it, I think it, I hate the term,but it's the best term is it's your feel.

(07:11):
Mm. You, you know, you, you know,I can know, I can get data that
shows that I pull more with my left.
Right.
Doing a right to left changethan a left to right change.
Okay, cool.
Which one is correct?
Well, that's where your fuel comes inthat says, oh, I think the stickiness
on my right to left change is maybe dueto a preexisting injury that we know of

(07:36):
and that affects the gait a certain way.
Or if the horse isn't rotating his,his neck to the left, that's why
I'm pulling more with my left reign.
That can mean he doesn't want tocompress the left side or he doesn't
want to extend the right side.
And that compression would, onthe left side would mean that

(07:56):
it could be these structures.
Extension on the right side wouldmean these other structures.
And so that's where your knowledge andyour feel and your experience comes in.
Mm-hmm.
The brain tension data just tells yousomething, you know, very basic, but you
have to fill that in with the rest of yourexperience and your team's experience.
So, let's talk a little bitabout this bit and the bridal.

(08:21):
First of all, what did you see in themarket that didn't exist and why you
wanted to create something unique to you?
I didn't want to.
You didn't?
No, I, you know, you onlycreate things outta necessity.
You don't create them 'causethey're already there.
I had a specific need for something andnothing that existed could fill that need.

(08:42):
I have a deep bit box.
Trust me, I, nothing could fillthat need and I. Had an idea of
combining two different bits in away that hasn't been done before.
And it ended up workingand I used that bit a lot.
I show one of my horses,I've shown a in it for years.

(09:03):
And, um, it accomplishedthe goal I wanted for it.
And that was the whole thing.
That was the end.
I had a need.
I filled it with a bit.
And then down the road I, youknow, I met, met someone who
could help produce the bit.
'cause I thought it couldbe useful for other people.
Hmm.
Because I have a couple otherbits that I've had designed

(09:25):
for, again, a need for me.
But that use case is so narrow.
Mm. And you need to really know whatyou're doing to get the benefit of it.
Mm-hmm.
Where this one, I think is you canget the benefit from it a lot simpler.
And I thought it couldhelp a lot of people.
'cause that need, Ifeel is more widespread.

(09:47):
And people don't know that they need it.
They just know that they'restruggling with something.
Um, and I believe this bit can help.
What is that need?
It's a bridge between apel and a swale.
Everyone knows what a plum is.
I think like two thirds to three quartersof all show jumping horses go in a pellum.

(10:07):
Mm-hmm.
Um, it's great 'cause itkeeps the horse stable.
Mm-hmm.
But by doing so, it makesit kind of just dull.
Um, I frankly can't ride in apellum 'cause it's too dull.
I can't turn, I can't do allthese things that you need to do.
It's just too dull.
It's just ugh.
Um, but it makes the horse stable,which is great, you know, and

(10:29):
that stability can really helpriders who need that stability.
Um, but sometimes horses are justso dull on it, on the other side.
On as Wale it's great 'cause it canmake courses really, really light.
The problem is horses need tohave some weight on the bit, on
the final approach to a fence.

(10:51):
And as Wale oftentimes that finalapproach, when the horses load your
hands, they'll, they'll pop off the bit.
Hmm.
Um, because they want to load.
And the bit is not letting 'em load.
Not because it's aggressive,it's just how it works.
So what I did is I, the, my bit is acombination of a pal, the strengths of a
pal, and the activity of a, of a swale.

(11:13):
So it's, you have the stability, butyou also have more, you know, a more
dynamic feel than you ever get with a pal.
Cool.
Why do horses, I think that a lotof people listening might wanna
want me to ask this question.
Why do horses need to loadon the bit before they jump?
I think it loads their body.
I think it's like, it'slike loading a rubber band.
Mm-hmm.
You know, if you just take a loose rubberband, it's not gonna fly across the room.

(11:36):
Mm-hmm.
You know, that, that load islike loading up a rubber band.
And I think it's just that simple.
You, you know, you, it.
It'd be like saying jump,but don't bend your knees.
Yeah.
That's, I think, areally cool explanation.
Um, 'cause a lot of the people, alot of our listeners are deep, deep,
deep in the jump in the world ofjumping and then, and some aren't.

(11:57):
So I think it's a really cool opportunity.
The biomechanics that happen whenhorses jump over fences, especially
at the height that they jump with you,is a really exciting thing to witness.
And I think when you dive into thebiomechanics, the balance aspects of
it, the angles, it's really interesting.
We did a little bit of that when we talkedwith, when Nikki Hinson came in mm-hmm.
To the EPIs into the studio.

(12:17):
It was really cool to talk about it.
Okay.
So let's, so we've touched on the bit.
Do you have a name for the bit?
We call it a s Swum.
So it's a combinationof a s sw and a pellum.
Nice.
I thought about naming it somethingunique, but it was already new and, you
know, didn't want to confuse people.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I want just to be, make sense to 'em.

(12:38):
So
cool.
Yeah.
The bridal.
Just a leather bridle.
Well, you're really selling it, girl.
No, I mean, there's all these newbridals where it relieves pull pressure
or it moves the cheek piece so itdoesn't pinch on a nerve that's there.
You know, all of this stuff.
First of all, people will put on abridle that doesn't put pull pressure,

(13:03):
but in that, there's so many more strapsaround the cheeks and around the horse's
face, and then they put on a pellum.
A pellum is designedto apply pull pressure.
It's design is literally basedaround applying pull pressure.
So if you're complaining that yourhorse is sensitive to pull pressure,
yet you were required to use a pellum.

(13:24):
Or a gag or any ofthat, it makes no sense.
You, you know, and also peoplewith tighter nose bands, any
tension in the nose band putsdownward pressure on the pole.
Whether it's because the horse isopening their mouth against the
nose band, or because you put atight nose band, it doesn't matter
any nose band tension mm-hmm.
Puts downward pressure.
And anyone can do this.

(13:45):
Just put your bridal on, put your handunderneath, uh, the crown piece mm-hmm.
And twist the nose band.
So you're slowly tightening it and youwill feel downward pressure on your hand.
So all this anti pull pressurestuff, I think maybe 0.1% of
the time it's actually needed.

(14:05):
I think the rest of the time it's be,it's used as a cover so people don't
have to actually fix the problem.
I have never had a horsewith a pul pressure problem.
I know every horse is unique and aspecial flower, but I also don't really.
Sh like I can't think of onehorse that I ride in that their

(14:31):
show bridal a prize pull pressureexcept for Car Cole with Hack More.
That's the only one.
Mm-hmm.
Um, again, I'm not saying it's impossible,I'm just saying it's used as a to abdicate
blame for what's actually happening.
Um, but more than that, Ithink a lot of the bridals
nowadays are just really cheap.

(14:53):
Even if you spend a lot on them,just 'cause you spent a lot doesn't
mean that they're well made.
You know, you'll pick one upand it'll smell like chemicals.
Well that's because it's not vegetabletanned and it's chromium tanned in
like Bangladesh and they don't last.
And people just accept that.
And I wanted to make a bridal thatworks, that has better leather,

(15:15):
that works better, and you know, ifyou clean it moderately correctly.
Will last a long time.
Um, and we tie everything together so thebridal matches and it's made out of the
same leather as the Martin Gale made out.
It matches the reins, it matches,you know, so the whole thing
looks to, you know, correct.

(15:36):
Instead of having these mixed matchedpieces that just don't look right.
Yeah.
I mean, as a kid I remember usingelectrical tape or zip ties or you, you
know, whatever you could have, or you,you know, you put on a different nose
band, but you didn't have that noseband in the bridal that the bridal was.
So you put that on, but it's doesn'tmatch at all, and it looks ugly.

(15:57):
So, you know, we're just trying tomake use go leather that people don't
use and use because it's expensive.
But for me, it's worth it.
And I don't like designingsomething I know is gonna fail
in a certain period of time.
It's more profitable.
It's way more profitable.
Yep.
But that's, that's not hard.

(16:21):
Yeah.
And it's not fun to design aproduct that you know is gonna fail.
You can just so much easier.
You just know it's gonna fail.
You don't have to solve the problem.
It's interesting 'cause we talkedabout this when ZA came into the
studio, talk about saddle fit.
And I don't think people, uh, do you thinkas an industry we talk enough about the
commercial patterns of T fit and the factthat it says you make more money when

(16:47):
something fails and needs to get replaced.
Do you think we talk about that enough?
No, but I mean, in society we don't.
Um, what's the technical term for it?
Uh, planned obsolescence isthe technical term for it.
You plan for it to obsolesce.
Um, and they do that all over.
You know, we can make light bulbsthat last millions of hours.

(17:09):
Why don't we, because it's not profitable.
We, we, we could makesaddles that last longer.
Why don't we, it's not that profitable.
And also people are cheap.
You know, there's, there's plenty of,plenty of studies out there where everyone
says, oh, we want organic, uh, produce.
Mm-hmm.
And but then when you people see theprice difference between the two, like

(17:33):
98% of 'em go to the conventional.
Yeah.
Do they really want organic?
They
don't wanna pay for it.
They want it, but they don'twanna pay the difference.
So if you have a conventionally madesaddle versus one that'll last you
four times as long, but it's twice asexpensive, you'll go for the cheaper one.
Why do you think that is?
Why do you think we do that?
Uh, it's human, human nature.

(17:55):
There's so much work totry to figure it out.
It's just expensive.
Um,
I also wonder whether we have anability to delay gratification the
way that we used to because we livein such a, well, wasn't that option.
What do you mean?
I think people weren't as good atplanned obsolescence in the past.

(18:16):
I. Okay, so stuff actually lasted mm-hmm.
And there wasn't an optionbetween something that doesn't
last and something that does.
So then let's talk about the studs.
Yeah, I mean, I had a needfor lighter weight studs, so
I made lighter weight studs.
Why did you have a need?
Um, I had a horse that was barefoother whole life that needed to jump on

(18:36):
grass, so we had to put shoes on her.
We put plastic shoes on her and I madereally lightweight studs so that we
didn't slip, and that was to minimizethe difference between barefoot and,
and uh, having the plastic shoes on.
Okay.
This is really cool 'cause thisis, I really wanted to dive
in to the end of each of yourhorses and how you navigate that.

(18:58):
But before we go there, I thinkthis would be a really good
opportunity to talk about one.
So you've tested, you've tried andyou're using plastic is like glue on?
No, no, I think glue on.
I haven't tested it yet,but I think it's, it.
It's, it's bad.
Okay.
So you're using plasticshoes that are nailed on.
That are nailed on and you're using iton your ma, can you name who The horse on

(19:21):
Carole.
On
Carole.
We wanna
start using on some others too.
Okay.
And she was barefoot her whole life.
Yep.
So you wanted to use lightweightshoes because she wasn't used to that.
Like she's gone her whole career.
Yeah, and we wanted
flexible shoes.
We wanted, you know, every pieceto be as similar as before.
So.
And how's it going?
Been going great.
Great.

(19:42):
Yeah.
So you wanted to create a lightweight,you wanted to like recreate that
lightweight feel that she has.
She's had for most of her life, she has.
Yeah.
Biomechanically.
It's different, you know, weknow that when you take shoes off
a horse who had been in shoes,there's differences to their gait.
We know that when you take a barefoothorse and you put shoes on, there's
differences in their gate andthere's differences in their jump.
And we wanted the bestparts of both sides of it.

(20:02):
Hmm.
So a horse that's barefootwill slip on grass.
Yeah.
It's like you, no one, no one playssoccer or American football and, and
goes with uh, you know, uh, you know,formal shoes they go to dinner with.
Right.
You know, not gonna work.
You need, you need cleats, you need studs.
So you wanna, and you want her to feelconfident like the angles and the speed at

(20:24):
which you're moving at the, at the, yeah.
If
you're going full speed and turnand you think you're gonna slip,
you're not gonna turn right.
So, and you're also notgonna push off the ground.
You know, if you don't have a stapleplatform to push, they won't push.
So you have less scope.
Okay.
So let's start, I love this topic,especially with someone like yourself.
'cause I think you can describe reallyeloquently how the process that you

(20:48):
go through when you get a new horseand determining their individual
needs, what is that process for you?
I think this is a dangerous topic becausepeople believe that their horse is one of
one, and all of the normal processes youcan do don't apply to their horse, apply

(21:08):
to everyone else's, but not to theirs.
Okay.
And so they think that everythingabout their horse has to be completely
different and nothing else will work.
And they spin themselvesdown a rabbit hole.
And guess what?
Horse never gets betterand they don't get better.
Mm. Um, the differences between myhorse is, sure there are differences,
but if you actually see what it'slike, it's not that different.

(21:30):
People wanna believe their horsescompletely a complete individual,
again, to abdicate blame for whythey aren't doing what they want.
That's an interesting call to action
and.
If I have a horse that's a littlebit colder, I'll give 'em a
little bit more energetic food.
If I have a horse that's hotter, I'llgive 'em a little bit less energetic food.
But they're still all, I'm not sayingmy horse processes carbohydrates

(21:54):
different than another horse.
Mm-hmm.
No, no, no.
I'm not saying a feedwon't work with that horse.
No.
You know, they all still, all the saddlesare the same, their boots are the same.
The, you know, the, the only reasonfor the bits being different is
a little bit different in, injust their base biomechanics.
Yeah.
'cause, you know, one might be taller,shorter, you know, longer stride,

(22:16):
shorter stride, that sort of thing.
Um, but I, I, I, I think horses areindividual, but this understanding that
my horse, like if, think of the oddsif you are, if it's a 1% chance that
something doesn't work with your horse.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.

(22:37):
There's one thing that's 1% chance.
Mm-hmm.
A second thing.
Now your horse is one in10,000, two 1% things.
Mm-hmm.
The likelihood of that is one in 10,000.
Now one more, one in a hundred,that's one in a million.
A third now a fourth.
That's one in a hundred million.

(23:00):
Mm-hmm.
So that's four.
One in a hundred things.
It's one in a hundred million.
Yeah.
The likelihood, so I, I just, your horseis an individual, but most of the time
when people are saying, my horse isjust different, it's just different.
They're, that's just to allow themselvesto not be, to make it okay that they're

(23:25):
getting less out of their relationship andthat, and to make it okay that them as a
rider and as a manager aren't doing what.
They should be doing.
Um, I know that's maybe not the mostcomfortable way to look at it for people
and they'll push back on and say, no,no, my horse really is one of one.

(23:45):
Well, I think if you look at biology,there are similarities amongst people
and then there are also individual needs.
Right?
And so it's a balance between the two.
Is one person one of one?
Well, we're one of many.
Yeah.
But I mean like, you know, goodhorse care is good horse care.
Mm. You, you know, if you have bad horsecare and say My horse doesn't like this
one skin product, but you have bad horsecare, I would say, how about you have

(24:08):
good horse care first, then we can talk.
I just think it's dangerous.
I love that.
And you're someone that actually hasspoken very openly about, um, I think
you did a walking and talking, talkingabout the importance that we teach.
Our young riders, our up and cominggeneration, not just about riding, but
about horse care, about management,about keeping horse, about finding a

(24:31):
horse, about, there's so many elementsthat go into success to what you're
talking about is a holistic look, right?
Yeah.
And have structure to it.
How can you, how can you come upwith any solution if you're changing
the variables at a whim and you'renot keeping track of any of the
variables that you can keep track of?

(24:51):
There are variables you can keep track of.
Like what,
uh, how much weight and haydoes your of course get a day?
What time of day?
How many times a day?
When do they work?
What weight are they at thesame time of day every Monday?
Mm.
Um, where, how many, how muchtime do they spend in a paddock?

(25:15):
What is the grass like in that paddock?
How often do you clean the shavings?
Yeah.
Do you know that each batch ofyour hay has the same nutrient
density as the batch before?
What's cool is that we'recoming back to data.
You're coming back to measurable data.
Control the variables you can,because there's plenty you can't.
So at least control the ones you can.

(25:36):
Really cool
at least.
So walk me through the process.
What's the kind of timeline that youlook at when you get a new horse?
What's the timeline of observation, let'ssay that you have in your mind or in your
program when you're trying to determinethe very best, let's say, ingredients
for that horse within the structureand within the program that you run?

(25:58):
Well, first they have to be fed stably.
So whatever they were fed before, ifit's your decision to feed them the
exact same thing, the exact same way,that's, that would keep it stable.
Okay.
Um, if you choose to make a change,it takes a certain period of time for
that change to manifest, you know?

(26:19):
For example, if you decide to feedthem twice the amount of calories,
they're not gonna get fat tomorrow.
Hmm.
They'll get fat in a period of time.
And you obviously have to go for asearch to figure out the right equipment.
Uh, you know, tendency would be, oh,it, this horse went in this bit before,
so I'm only ever gonna use that bit.
Well, you're not therider who rode it before.

(26:40):
You might be taller, shorter, stronger,weaker, older, younger, and we almost
never, I think there's only onehorse that I go in the same bridal.
Yeah.
Ever.
So you have to get a, a stablefeed and stable flat work.

(27:01):
Okay.
Because then you can say, okay,well these things are stable.
Is the horse still heavy?
Is the horse still light?
Is the horse dull?
Is the horse too hot?
Is the horse skittish?
How has the body changed?
Does the saddle that we fit inthe beginning still fit because
they lost weight or gainedmuscle, or just gained fat, maybe.

(27:21):
Mm-hmm.
Um, you know, and then youjust slowly tweak from there.
You tweak, you know, one variable at atime and you just step along the process.
You know, obviously if the programthe horse was in before compared
to yours is very different,you'll see a lot more change.
And it'll probably happenfaster, but also take longer.

(27:42):
So there's no cookie cutter, six weeks,but it's also not, it takes forever.
Like it just, it's part of the work.
You just step through it andyou go from one day to the next.
I don't think anexpectation should be set.
I love that.
What's one piece of advice?

(28:03):
For everyone who's listening, who hasa, who have a new horse, and let's
say the horse went really well ordidn't go so well with the previous
rider, what do you think is one thingthat everybody, regardless of their
socioeconomic background, their geo,geographical location, their area,
their sport, any of that, what's onething that every rider is capable

(28:23):
of doing to accommodate a new horse?
Treat it well.
Horse doesn't know if youare rich or you are poor.
The horse doesn't know.
If you felt you spent a lot or alittle, your horse doesn't know your
expectations or the expectations before.
Um, just treat it well.

(28:44):
And from that you end up getting what youwant instead of just expecting and only
treating it well if they give it to you.
You know, you don't dothat with kids or dogs.
You know, where you're basicallytreating 'em poorly, hoping that

(29:04):
they guess the right solution,and then you treat them well.
How likely do you think it is a horseis gonna guess the right solution?
Because there's like many steps toactually get to the right solution.
Mm-hmm.
But you haven't given them any ofthose steps, and you're expecting them
to figure out all of those steps toget to the right solution, and then
you treat it well just treat it well.

(29:25):
I love that.
Sorry.
It's boring, but
No, I like that you chose theword well instead of good or fair,
let's treat it well.
What do you think well means?
What's your definition of Well,
I mean, horses, theydon't need a pretty barn.
They don't need perfectlymanicured shavings at all times.

(29:48):
They don't need to havea soapy bath every day.
Mm-hmm.
They don't need, youknow, a lot of this stuff.
They need highly functional.
Surroundings.
Even if the barn has old wood, they don'tgive a shit as long as the wood doesn't
like stab them with shards of wood whenthey rub up against it on accident.

(30:13):
Yeah,
that's fine.
You know, they don't needsome state-of-the-art watering
system that keeps track of everydrop that they, they drink.
No, they just need cleanwater in clean buckets.
That's really not that hard.
Um, they need a diet that's appropriatefor what they do and that's fed to 'em

(30:34):
many times a day, um, consistently atthe same time, all the meals, every day.
And you, to just be fair,
I love, I love that statement becausewe had some amazingly inspiring
veterinarians in the studio and theytalk, you know, about spend the money on.

(30:57):
Getting the teeth floated properlyinstead of the brand new tack
trunk, because you, that's not gonnamake the difference to your horse.
And some people they spend, you know,they spend whatever they spend on a horse.
Mm-hmm.
And then they balk that you have toshoo them every, you might decide to s
them every four weeks instead every six.
Yeah.
That'd be like me buying a Ferrariand putting, you know, oil that's

(31:22):
meant for like a 1982 Acura in it.
Like, that's just dumb.
Why are you saving money there?
Mm. That's, it's, it, itmakes no logical sense.
Yeah.
If you're gonna, and if you makethe choice to invest in a horse, you
have to invest in the whole horse,not just in the purchase price.

(31:44):
And sorry to tell you that, butit's kind of self-explanatory.
Okay.
So this, I just really appreciate,I also just, I think a lot of
people, I mean, judging by the.
By the popularity of walking and talking.
I think people appreciate theway that you deliver things

(32:05):
and why.
Actually, here's a,here's a good question.
Before we dive into a really cool,I wanted to talk to you about your
style of riding, but before we do thatactually, why do you feel like inspired
or a sense of, maybe even maybe in thesense of responsibility, why do you feel

(32:26):
the need to, to tell people and speakhonestly, and speak openly and speak
transparently, because you don't haveto, you could have no social media.
You could just ride andfocus on all your goals.
You don't have, you don't owe anyone anyinformation, and yet you have dedicated
a big part in walking and talking.

(32:47):
I think a lot of people in the horseworld would contribute or attribute
it to be a tremendous effort intransparency and open dialogue.
Why?
I think there's two main reasons I wouldsay they're not in sequential order.
Okay.
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(35:28):
I would say they're notin sequential order.
Okay.
Um, first it helps me
because you, we all can think abouta problem in our head for hours.
Hmm.
We can talk about our feelingswith our trainer for four hours,

(35:50):
you know, after a round to solvefeelings and feelings and feelings.
There's so many feelings,too many feelings.
But actually having to say it outloud in a concise manner is helpful.
Just like when someone says,write it down, like, well, I,

(36:12):
I've, I've thought about it.
Like I know my thoughts.
I know.
Write it also in one paragraph thatchanges how you think about it.
It changes your method of thinking and.
You now don't have an option of beingthree and a half hours of feelings.
Mm. You have, you have maybe twosentences of feelings, and then

(36:34):
hopefully you do like five sentenceson what you're gonna do now.
And me speaking is a lot similar to that,and it is helpful for me to do that.
Um, also, a lot of times some people'scomments are quite interesting.
Maybe not in the way that I,I didn't expect it, but that

(36:56):
doesn't mean it's not interesting.
It's not helpful.
So first of all, it's helpful.
Second, um, I'm very grateful fora lot of the experiences and the
people I've been able to learn from.
I have been very fortunate to beable to learn from them in the
way that I was able to do it.
That is not the cheapest way to learn.

(37:19):
And most of the time the knowledgethat people are searching for,
whether they know it or not, islocked behind money They do not have.
And
they, so the help they get aregenerally misappropriated bandaids as

(37:41):
opposed to what actually will help.
That doesn't mean they'll do it, but wouldwhat would actually help if they did?
And I'm not saying I have all theright answers 'cause I don't, I would
jump clear in every class if I did.
Um, but I want it to be cheaper for peopleto learn how to treat their horses well

(38:06):
that's a really cool why.
It also helps me.
I like that you said thatthey're not in sequential order.
Well, 'cause I was gonna startwith what I started with anyway.
Yeah.
I didn't want to, you know,
it's a really cool why because Ithink there's some of us in the, I
think there's more people than maybe,

(38:27):
well actually we also spend ourmoney in awful and really not awful,
really not objectively correct ways.
So you'll spend, I don't know,what does it cost for a lesson?
I
can cost anywhere from 50 to 250 to
Great.

(38:48):
Let's say your lesson cost50 to $250 and you have what,
two to four of those a week?
I think some people havethem one time a week.
Sometimes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Fine.
More.
That is a lot of money thatyou're paying consistently.
Mm-hmm.
And the point of why you're doing thatis because you want consistent knowledge
to change consistently, to get better.

(39:08):
And unfortunately to get better,you have to change who you are.
You can't get better without change.
I know we're all perfect flowersthe way we are, but you can't
get better without changing.
Are
we perfect flowers the way we are?
Uh, I was placating to an audience.
Uh, no.
We're, but you know, people want toassume that they could just change

(39:30):
one tiny thing and everything will,like they're doing everything right.
It's just one little thing.
But, so let's say your lessons are ahundred dollars and you do two of them
a week, that's $200, $800 a month.
And that's just the lessons.
That doesn't count the otherexpenses, which is really expensive.
Yeah.

(39:50):
Now there are plenty of books.
Each one can teach you morethan any one of those lessons.
You think so?
Yeah.
In one one hour lesson a. $30 book willteach you more than that one hour lesson.
A hundred percent.
That's really cool.

(40:11):
Yet we proverbial, we want to learnwhile sitting our ass in a saddle.
And the thought that you would learn aboutriding not in a saddle, on a horse, in a
ring with someone talking to you mm-hmm.
Is just anathema tosuccess for some reason.

(40:35):
And so, back to my point,people spend money in the horse
sports just unintelligently.
'cause you can get, I'm notsaying in-person lessons
while writing is useless.
Hmm.
I'm saying it needs to come with otherthings that can actually make you have
more context to what's being said.

(40:58):
So you can get more out ofthose a hundred dollar lessons
and you can get better faster.
But people don't do it.
When I tell people the, what helpedme the most outside of working with
Eric was reading, they look at melike I speak in Chinese and I also sit
there and I see the reaction and theonly thing it tells me is it's only

(41:23):
gonna hurt them to have that reaction.
It doesn't hurt me.
It makes me think of when we go toschool, you would never just show up
to class and listen to your teacherand not do any of the reading or any of
the homework because they're, or there
just wouldn't be reading or homework or,or anything you would just be spoken at

(41:46):
and then expect at the end to get a PhD.
Right, because what I thinkyou are talking about, and
I love that you brought up.
That reading was the best way toget the most out of riding with,
is that, that what you said?
Riding with Eric, the bestthing you could do was read.
Mm-hmm.
But what it makes me think of isthat what you were doing was you were
priming and enriching and buildingthe brain that was receiving the

(42:09):
information you're getting from Ericin a way that makes what you learn from
him that much more valuable to you.
Sure.
Also, working with your vet, youknow, you, you, you know, I've
studied one of my favorite booksI've studied over and over again.
It is boring as All Hell 'causeAll it is is rote memorization.

(42:30):
It's an anatomy book.
So it's just memorization.
Yeah.
Yet when you can remember the variousstructures, you can then picture how
they move, how they interact together.
How if you have a little bit ofswelling in this tendon, and let's
say you have a little bit of,you have a tear in a dispensary.
Yeah.

(42:50):
You know, you have more context.
Two, what type of movementscould have caused it?
Mm-hmm.
Is it a compensatory injury,which 98% of the time is so then
what are they compensating for?
Mm-hmm.
If you don't treat that, you'renot gonna fix the dispensary and
you can adjust your flat work.
You, depending on what you'retrying to strengthen or avoid.

(43:15):
Mm-hmm.
Uh, especially in rehab.
And when you're talking to your vet andyour vet's talking about what they see,
you actually have context for what you'resaying and you actually know where the
structures are that they're talking about.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, how many people listen totheir ve they're like, oh, yeah,
yeah, yeah, that's a good idea.
But they have no idea if thevet's talking about a structure
in the back, in the neck.
A leg,

(43:35):
oh, um, sorry.
Present company includedfor most of my junior.
And, and how much wouldit have helped you?
You, you know so
much.
But I was intimidated to evensay, I don't actually have
any clue about what you're the
internet talking about.
Well, you got the
Yeah.
Now,
and, you know, I
definitely,
or, you know, pay 20 bucks a monthfor, uh, an AI search engine Yeah.
So that you can search your questions.

(43:56):
Yeah.
Um, I, I just don't getwhy people don't do that.
I just, I just don't, never will.
Hmm.
I think it's, well, one, I thinkthere's a lot less education,
especially about biomechanics and aboutanatomy than the books are out there.
Most people are comfortable to admit
they're out there.
The books are that.

(44:16):
I agree.
I agree.
And actually, the main book I'm thinkingof was, I think it was printed in oh four.
2004.
Yeah.
Not 1904.
No, no.
2004. I think it was 2004.
Well, you know what we should do isin the show notes to this episode,
so it was in one of your previousthings that you posted My five books.
Yep.
I already spoke abouttwo of those five books.
Okay.
'cause we're gonna includethem in show notes.

(44:37):
So, and, and the book is onAmazon for like 45 bucks.
There you go.
And like, why wouldn't you do that?
Like, just, just why it makes no sense.
Well, and I think, I think an Olympiansitting in the studio saying that it
will tangibly contribute to your riding.

(44:59):
Just try it
and see what happens.
Yeah.
So we talked about, I'm glad you broughtup Eric, because, so for, for those who
are listening and watching you who don'tknow, you have ridden with and worked
with Eric Neve for how many years now?
Uh, almost 13.
Right.
And he's an, and you would considerhim a great mentor of yours?

(45:22):
Mm-hmm.
Of course.
So I think Eric, personally, I thinkhe's one of the greatest of all time.
I think he's mm-hmm.
Unbelievable.
So at what point do you go from ridinglike Eric to riding like Carl Cook?
Because everyone in thehorse world talks about this.
They talk about, you know, you kindof ride in the style that you're
mentored and until you developyour own individual approach.

(45:47):
Mm-hmm.
When did that happen for you?
I always had my own stylebefore I rode with Eric.
Okay.
I was never, I, uh, for good or for bad.
My, my first barn I was at neverreally forced a position on me.
There's many good things about that.
There's also some less good things.
It's, you know, nothing's good,you know, nothing's all or nothing.

(46:10):
Yeah.
Um, but I went to Eric because a lot.
Too much stuff was not working.
So I needed to learn thatstuff that wasn't working.
So I changed how I rode because it wasthe right plan, it was the right way,
um, so that Eric wouldn't have to teacharound what I didn't want to learn.

(46:35):
Um, and so I rode asmuch as I could like him.
Obviously I knew that I wouldfail 'cause you can never ride
a hundred percent like anyone.
That's just impossible.
Um, but I knew I neededto learn a bunch of stuff.
So, uh, that's what I did.
And then maybe I startedto ride more like myself.

(46:59):
Uh, once I really, once I started to pickmy own horses, uh, because I had a certain
type of horse when I was a young rider.
I was very successful on that.
Obviously stopped working.
Um, but then for a number of yearsI didn't pick my horses and you
could say it's a bad thing, but alsothose horses had characteristics

(47:20):
that helped me learn those things.
I didn't know.
Yeah.
You, you know, if you are tryingto learn how to use your leg
better yet your horses are runaway.
You're never gonna learnhow to use your leg.
Mm. Uh, this, this just won't happen.
You need a horse that needs, youknow, a good leg for you to learn.
Is my leg do helping or not?

(47:41):
Mm-hmm.
So, um, but once I started to be incharge of picking my own horses, then,
you know, stylistically I could takewhat I, you know, had been and was
learning with Eric and bringing inhorses that were more similar to what I
was successful with when I was younger.

(48:03):
But now since I knew so muchmore then those errors and
those issues from the past.
The idea, the hope was wouldn't come back.
So what is that type of horse now?
How would you describethe horse that you It's a
modern horse.
It's, it's just a modern, you,you know, people joke that
it's only one type of horse.
'cause I only have Hot Bay mares.

(48:23):
But
also we all love the factthat you have Hot Bay mares.
Yeah, I do have an inordinatenumber of Hot Bay MAs.
I, I am not looking for only Hot Bay MAs.
Um, but, you know, there's always abalance of feel that you're going for.
And I think nowadays the coursesare getting more delicate.
The times are getting faster,the jump offs are getting faster.
You need a smart, um, quickactive, delicate sport horse.

(48:49):
Um, you know, those big boats ofthings that used to be more successful.
I think what we do in thering now is different.
So you can see people are ridingquicker, hotter, more energetic
horses than, than they used to.
Okay.
I'm gonna ask you a hard question,which I wasn't expecting to ask
you, but you say that statement.

(49:11):
So because we are breeding potter,sportier, finer horses, and the
way that the sport has evolved,things are really technical.
So you have two factories.
When we talk about change,we talk about data.
So those are two factorsthat have changed.
So the additional factor that'simportant to making, to creating

(49:31):
success is horsemanship.
Do you think horsemanship has caughtup or is in, in alignment with the
breeding and the technicality of the
sport?
Well, I don't think, I think somepeople are breeding lighter horses.
What I would say is more accurate is weare selecting those for the top sport.
Those heavy horses just don'tgo to the top sport anymore.

(49:54):
They go to teach juniors, amateurs, theygo to hunters or equitation or, yeah,
you know, they just go somewhere else.
Um,
and they find success elsewhere.
Yeah.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
They just, the horses we areselecting for the top sport Yeah.
Are just different.
Not sure they're attempting to breed,you know, every breeder's trying to breed

(50:14):
horses, they can sell for a lot of money.
Yeah.
So, you know, they're trying tolook into their crystal ball.
Uh, for that.
I think the horsemanship atthe top level absolutely.
Has a hundred percent keeps up.
Um, it's the most dynamic place to be.
Um, so on that side, yes.
Mm-hmm.
But also the, even though thatgroup of people at the high end is

(50:35):
bigger than it ever has been, it'sstill tiny in comparison to, you
know, the rest of horse sports.
But that's always the way it's gonna be.
Yes.
You know, should it be different?
Yeah.
It's why it's a pyramid,but it's it's not a bot.
It's not a rectangle.
Yeah.
But also if you stick, ifyou stick a non-top rider in

(50:57):
and amongst those top riders.
They will miss 96% of what's happening.
Uh, now will they get better fasterthan if they were hidden at home
trying to learn by themselves?
Sure.
But you're gonna miss a whole lot.
I don't know how to change it.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I, I don't think enoughpeople are up to telling their secrets.

(51:22):
Um, there aren't any secrets.
They just think they are.
So you can't ride like them anyway.
So why does it matter if they use threeholes on the, or three nails on the
outside and two nails on the inside?
Or they use a this stir or thatstirrup or this supplement or
that supplement or whatever.
You can't write like him anyways.

(51:43):
Doesn't matter.
Okay.
I'm gonna say a statement.
I'm really curious whatyou think about it.
I had a really interesting cowboy askedhim if he was ever gonna write a book and
he said, no, I'm not gonna write a book.
'cause it's all been written.
Do you think it's true?
No.
I mean, no, I think, I think at best,90% of your book, if successful,

(52:08):
will just restate things in away that people might understand.
Now, the application in the western worldis different than the application for us.
Um, if we are gonna write a bookabout training your horse to hopefully

(52:29):
jump successfully to three footthree or three foot six, mm-hmm.
I'd say, yeah,
everything's been written.
Everything you need toknow has been written.
A lot of the stuff that's at thecutting edge, at the high level,
you don't need at that level.
Right.
That'd be like saying, do you needF1 tires to go pick up the groceries?

(52:51):
Right.
And nothing wrong with that horsethat just jumps Three foot three.
Yeah.
But you don't need any of that crayou know, any of that crazy tack.
Well, I think it's actuallyreally empowering for a lot of us.
Sit here.
You could just
do it.
Yeah.
What has already been ridden.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, but at the highestlevel, no, that's always new.

(53:11):
It seems like it's very innovative.
Yeah.
People wanna be, 'cause people wanna winand, you know, any advantage they can
get, they'll, they can and should take.
Okay.
Now I wanna dive into, actuallyI'm gonna read a, a definition and
I'm going to ask you if you haveever navigated imposter syndrome.

(53:32):
And before you answer, I'm gonna,I'm gonna read the definition
and this is actually something.
I get from you 'cause I'm prettysure you've actually read out the
definition on a couple things.
Imposter syndrome, also known as imposterphenomenon, is a behavioral health
issue that causes people to doubt theirskills, accomplishments, and intellect.

(53:52):
It can manifest as a persistentfeeling of self-doubt and fear
of being exposed as a fraud.
People with imposter syndromemay believe that they are
undeserving of their achievementsand the high regard they receive.
Have you ever felt that?

(54:12):
I think it is important to not
focus on a definition for something,but in what you choose to do.
Hmm.
Um, because who cares if you've everfelt symptoms of imposter syndrome?

(54:33):
Mm-hmm.
What did you do?
Sure.
In my position, I come from avery fortunate position where I've
been able to ride great horsessince my first punny jumper.
Right.
And of course, you want to ride any ofthose great horses that people know that

(54:54):
you have in a way that is right for them.
Mm-hmm.
Now, I could choose tolet that cripple me.
Mm-hmm.
Or I could choose not to.
And if I just stay obsessed with thedefinition, let's say, it perfectly

(55:14):
explains everything in my being.
And if I just wallowin that, who loses most
me?
Mm-hmm.
So what is your choice?
And who cares if youhave all of the symptoms?
Who cares if you havethe best reasons why?
Hmm.

(55:35):
I don't care.
You shouldn't care.
It matters what you choose to do.
And similar to the question ofhow do you deal with pressure?
My answer to them is, pressureis a privilege is what
you choose to do with it.
It makes you better.
If you think it makes you worseand you act on that, well then
you're the one who suffers.
I don't suffer.

(55:56):
So I, people need to make a choice andnot think that, make a choice to act
and not just wallow in some words or
I think it's really good advice.
I think it's very poignant because Ithink a lot of people have, I mean, I

(56:18):
certainly talk to all sorts of peoplein the horse world at lower levels,
at higher levels that have said theyhave struggled with imposter syndrome.
And I think it's really a, it'sa thing that we all navigate a
lot of, a lot of people navigate.
So what are some of your own tools?
Because you, not only, so youtalk about the, you, you just, you

(56:41):
just described it so perfectly.
Like you have had so many opportunitieswithin the horse, within the horse
world and within horse sport youhave competed at the top, top level
and you've gone to the Olympics.
You have a ton of pressure.
And anyone who knows show jumping willsay it's like, it has the mental demands

(57:02):
of golf, but it happens in a matterof minutes, like downhill ski racing.
So it's a very fascinating combination of,of, um, like I would say like mental game.
Right.
So what is your personal practicewhen it comes to mental health and
specifically sports psychology?

(57:23):
Well, what I'd say is, look, you're,everyone has a bunch of thoughts.
I, I bet you everyone at the Showgroundshas had thoughts, some or all of
the thoughts on your definition.
Mm-hmm.
You think everybody
probably.
I agree.
You know, we we're humans.
We have a lot of thoughts.
We've also had a lot ofthoughts of confidence.
Mm-hmm.
We've had a lot of thoughts of,I can do this, I can't do this.

(57:46):
I, you know, we all have so manythoughts and I think it's important
to not focus on that and focuson, well, what are you gonna do?
What is the action thatyou're gonna do next?
Because you're not gonna getbetter by staying in your head.
What's your action?

(58:07):
Where do you go from there?
You know, it's all fun and gamesto talk about feelings for hours.
You don't follow that up with action.
You'll be in the same place.
So I don't care if you've had impostersyndrome feelings or you've had.
Um, loss of worth feelings or,you know, you'll, you might have

(58:29):
some depressive feelings, someuh, overbearing pressure feelings.
Some, you know, this is tough.
This, this is a lot going on.
Mm-hmm.
But it matters what you choose to do.
It's a choice.
Most people aren't forced to ride.

(58:50):
If it, you choose to ride and youhave feelings that are difficult for
you to manage, we'll make a choiceto figure out how to deal with them.
We can label all you want, butit's about your choice of action.
So what are three things thatyou think are available to

(59:10):
everybody to up their mental game?
I mean, look, you can.
You can read self-help booksand, and get a therapist.
I obviously, I have a sports psychologist.
I, there's nothing wrong with that,but I think it's important that
people stay very action based.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, very method based and theystay disciplined on their method.

(59:35):
Um, because if they do the method,whatever they believe is correct over
and over again, and they keep havingthe same problem, okay, well then
change one thing about your method.
Mm-hmm.
See if it makes an improvement.
Mm-hmm.
And that's how you develop your own way.
There's no, there's nothree bullet pointed system.

(59:57):
I can't do a, a speech tour whereI give people the answers to.
Mm-hmm.
All the mysteries of life.
For me, it's, it, it'sthe same as writing.
You show up each day, you work onthe action points from yesterday,
you try to make those better.
If they get better, great.
You find other action points for tomorrow.

(01:00:17):
If they don't, maybe what you triedtoday was not the right thing to do.
You try something else tomorrow.
Hmm.
Um, who cares that youdidn't fix it in today?
Just keep going.
And if it's completely cripplingand ruining your life alone, it's,
you have a choice to not ride.

(01:00:37):
I know this is nottouchy feely summer camp.
Everyone's having a great time stuff,but I, for me, it's, you have to choose
to act, um, make an action, might not bethe right one, but by making an action,
you learn that it wasn't the rightone, then you can try another action.
If you make no action,you'll have the same result.

(01:00:57):
Yeah.
I actually think that I'm gonna draw areference because as you're talking and
you said, you know, this isn't the summercamp touchy feely vibe that everyone
might wanna hear, but actually no.
Are you familiar withwho Jordan Peterson is?
In the mental health space.
He's a really, um, he's sort of a thoughtleader in, in psychology and in human

(01:01:21):
thought, and he's very popular and a lotof people attribute his popularity to his
ability to actually just give that kindof, this is gonna be a heteronormative
reference, but like his ability togive that kind of like straight up
fatherly advice that you might get.

(01:01:42):
He, he's actually really well knownfor being pretty to the point and to
say some say the hard thing for mostpeople, and he's become really popular
because of that and not popular in someroom in some areas because of that.
And I actually think that thecollective needs those points of view.

(01:02:03):
I think it's an important balance,right, to say actually there are things
that you can do and they're not thatcomplicated and they're available to
you and you don't really have an excuse.
Yep.
And a lot of times the reason peopledon't make simple changes is just 'cause
it's simple, doesn't mean it's easy.
A lot of times the hardestchange is the simple one.
Mm. And they want secretsthat they don't know.

(01:02:26):
So it'd be something complicatedor specialized or mm-hmm.
You know, proprietary.
Mm-hmm.
That is simple.
And they don't have to really do anything.
It just like washes over them andall of a sudden they're a new person.
Yeah.
You see that all the time, but it's oftenthe simple change that is the hardest one.

(01:02:48):
That is the one to make.
But I'm sorry, it's hard.
Can't change that.
I just love to like, let the silencesit around some of these really
powerful talk, like these reallypowerful statements you're making.
You have a co a quite a few, maybemore than you realize, a couple

(01:03:12):
fans in fellow riders and they, theyactually ex, they really celebrate how
to the point and unfiltered you are.
They actually, I think one referencedit as a superpower, but it also can
cause quite a stir, which we've seen.

(01:03:32):
I think I am in a very fortunateplace where it doesn't hurt me to
speak out or, or to speak my mind.
It doesn't hurt me to speakmy mind because it, I don't
have to worry about clients.
I don't have to worry about goodrelationships with other trainers.

(01:03:54):
So we can do business back and forth.
I don't,
I just don't have to worry.
Mm-hmm.
And so it doesn't.
If I cause a stir unintentionallyor intentionally, it doesn't
affect what I do with my horses.
Mm-hmm.
You know, I look my owner's, my, my mom.

(01:04:17):
So if I say something that rattlesthe boat a little bit, she's not
gonna take all the horses andgo give them to someone else.
Yeah.
So I'm in a very fortunate positionwhere I can be upfront, and a lot of
people at the show are also upfront, butthey choose not to be because it might
negatively impact their livelihoods.

(01:04:38):
Yeah.
And you could say they shouldn't do that.
They should always speak their mindall that, you know, they're less of
a person because No, they, they have,there's more stuff in their equation.
Yeah.
They have bills to pay mortgages than
there is for me.
Yeah.
Like the, and I think that's afactor that's super important that
sometimes maybe the horse worlddoesn't always take into consideration

(01:05:00):
is when you're reading a piece.
When you're reading an article,when you're talking to somebody,
what is their point of view?
Because there's a spectrumof opinion and it's opinion.
Where are they sitting on that spectrum?
You're taught it at university.
Hopefully.
Hopefully.
You're taught to, yeah.
You're taught to discern what is the pointof view, what is the bias that exists

(01:05:22):
within this particular point of view?
Right.
But something that I don't know ifwe talk maybe openly enough about
in the horse world is there's a lotof editing that takes place because
money makes the world go round.
And a lot of riders or a lot ofindividuals within the horse world,
they have, I have been in positionswhere people have said something to me

(01:05:43):
and they're like, I will never say thatpublicly, Noel, I will never say that.
Yeah, sure.
I, I mean, I could, you wouldsay, why didn't this trainer
tell me what actually would help?
Well, you didn't want to hear it, youknow, if you showed up for a clinic and.
Your bridle was way too big andyou couldn't make it shorter.

(01:06:04):
Your saddle was fit for an elephantand you have mismatched boots
and your horse is really unfitand you've paid for this clinic.
Mm-hmm.
And instead of the trainer teaching youwhat the clinic was about in the saddle,
they said, I'm sorry, you're still gonnapay, but I can't teach you in the saddle.

(01:06:28):
I'm gonna show you what iswrong with your equipment.
And until that is fixed,you can't come back.
Now.
That is the right way to do it.
Yeah.
Because until your shoeing is right,your tack, your saddle fits, you know,
you, you have boots that fit for thepurpose that they're supposed to be

(01:06:50):
your horses, you know, in a good place.
Physically, you shouldn'tbe taught to ride.
On that horse mm-hmm.
With that saddle that doesn't fit.
Mm-hmm.
But
that wouldn't go over well
economically.
It wouldn't go over well,
you know, I could do the sameformat with many different ways.

(01:07:10):
Mm-hmm.
There's many applications ofthat concept in the horse world.
Yeah.
And so it, to me, I don't wonder why thestate of things are the way they are.
A lot of people do.
I don't, because you look at where theincentives are, where the expectations
are, and what people are paying for,but they think they're paying for.

(01:07:32):
Mm-hmm.
It actually makes perfect sense,
which is why everyoneneeds to pick up a book.
Right.
Just think for
themselves.
Because you could get, yeah.
Think for yourself and pick up abook, because that is something that
actually can mitigate coming to theclinic with a poorly fit battle.
But, but also it could just be thatthey knew the right answer, but

(01:07:52):
they don't have enough discipline.
Mm.
To
do it.
Like, you know that, you know, the horseshould have been haw four weeks ago.
Yeah.
But you didn't do it.
That is nothing about knowledge.
That is all about discipline.
Yeah.
I agree with that.
And
there's a lot of stuff where they wantto think it's about lack of knowledge or

(01:08:15):
it's really just a lack of discipline.
Mm. With the knowledge that you had, ifyou did everything that your knowledge
told you with discipline, you wouldbe way farther ahead, even if you
still lack knowledge, but you weredisciplined about the knowledge you got.
Oh.
Instead of just thinking,I'm doing all the discipline.
Great.
It's just I lack, lack knowledge.

(01:08:36):
Like No, no.
A lot.
You need more knowledge.
Sure.
But it's best suited if you also canput it into a discipline program.
Just more silence.
So good buddy.
I just love it.
Okay.
Sometimes you say like, you've saidstuff to me or you've said stuff publicly

(01:08:58):
and then you'll get criticism for it.
And I loved something you said tome when we were like on the phone
once you said, doesn't mean thatI'm gonna change what I said.
It's like this idea of just 'causeyou get criticism for what she
said does not mean that it's wrong.
I think if people areexpressing their ideas
mm-hmm.

(01:09:18):
And their experiences, even if it iscompletely opposite to my ideas and
experiences, that is still helpful.
Yeah.
Both to me and to other people now.
Sure.
Attacking people personally, that'sreally not helpful for the conversation.
Yeah.
But differences of opinion are helpfuleven if I think those opinions are wrong.

(01:09:42):
It's still helpful.
So just because someone has a differentopinion than me doesn't mean I am
going to regret saying anything.
It just means that thereis a conversation going.
And that's not a bad thing.
Like who?
Disagreement's not a bad thing.

(01:10:03):
Um, it's how you learn.
You know, why does that personhave that difference of opinion?
Is there something about myopinion that actually should
be educated a bit by theirs?
Mm. 'cause a lot of timesthat's the case, you know?
And, and you have tobe open to that change.
As much as I speak loudly,I also change how I think.

(01:10:28):
I think that's something that'sreally important to emphasize
in this right now, right?
Is you can have an opinion and itcan also change, it can evolve.
Like Mark Rashid was in the studioand I said he's written 16 books.
And I said, what's, you know, like, what'sone book that just stands out for you?
And he said, well, each of those bookswas a, is a representation of the,

(01:10:52):
the thoughts and the feelings andthe opinions that I had at that time.
Yep.
And you know, he's like anicon in, in, in his space.
And he said, and those have changed.
I've written 16 books to say that Ihave the exact opinion that I had in
each of those books is, is a, is afallacy, you know, thought evolves.
It should, you don't getbetter without change.

(01:11:16):
So good.
Okay, so to wrap up everyepisode, I always ask each guest
the same rapid fire questions.
If you could read one book to thehorse world, what would it be?
I don't know
really.
It can't be just one?
Well, you gotta pick just one.
I don't know.
I can't answer that one.

(01:11:38):
Okay.
Who is the most iconic horse in history?
So many ways you could do it becausehe would say Eclipse, but then no one
would know what you're talking about.
Um, Milton, because how heinspired the partnership inspired
everyone that came after.
Do you think that's who, so when topriders want to aspire to what I'd call

(01:12:02):
symbiosis between horse and rider, doyou think that's who they think of?
Yeah.
Or I mean, you could also, inthat example, you could pick
someone, a horse like, oo, whoelse could have ridden that thing?
Mm-hmm.
And that partnership andthe way that was amazing.
Mm-hmm.
Um, you know, that that same,uh, same, you know, gem twist at

(01:12:24):
that time was such a cool horse.
Mm-hmm.
Awesome.
Unbelievable.
Um, Hickstead like that, youknow, I know it's out of fashion.
I get it.
But like, remember watchingthem go around amazing.
Like, just like, just.
Ignore some of the other stuff.
If you just look atwatching 'em go around.
Yeah.
So, I dunno.

(01:12:46):
Yeah.
Good answer.
I let you say.
Okay.
I let you say more than one there.
Yeah.
That's so, okay, so we'll goback to, if you could read
one book to the horse world.
Let's say, if you could readthree books to the horse world.
Everything from John Marie Denix.
Okay.
That's a great answer.
Good books'.
John Marie Denix.

(01:13:07):
Jean Marie Deis is a French vet.He's actually still alive and I think
he's written the best books aboutbiomechanics, anatomy, uh, for horses.
Now.
His anatomy is more about jumping.
Yeah.
Um, than anything.
If it's for all horses, thenit'd probably be the, what is it?

(01:13:28):
The veterinary owner's manual.
Mm-hmm.
Like, like literally just be that,like, just, that's horse care stuff.
Love it.
Most undervalued skill as a writer.
What's undervalued skill as a rider?
Simplicity.
Who is the greatest horsemanor horse woman in history?

(01:13:50):
Eric Neve.
And last question, I have afeeling I know your answer.
Mares, stallions or geldings?
Oh, mares God.
Stallions are dumb andgeldings are neutral.
And what are mares.
They're spicy, they're smart.
Carl, I will say I had prettyhigh expectations of this episode

(01:14:13):
and they totally met them.
Thank you for so much forcoming on the podcast.
Thank you so much.
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(01:14:37):
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