Dear Horse World, It’s Nick Dowers: Reined Cow Horse Training Methods That Work for Any Discipline (Sponsored by YETI)

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
A horse that is really in tune to what thetask is, and they're giving it their all.
They just look differentthan a horse that's forced.
What if the calmest person in thearena was also the most powerful?
Today we're sitting down withsomeone who's redefining what real
horsemanship looks like, quiet,consistent, and incredibly effective.

(00:25):
Nick Doers is a professionaltrainer clinician in 2016.
Rode to the horse cold starting Champion,a top reined cow horse competitor.
He blends cowboy grit with adeep respect for the horse's.
Mind his method.
Find the try, direct the effortand reward, and let it soak

(00:47):
simple and quietly revolutionary.
In this episode, we're divinginto why feel and timing
matter more than technique.
What Real World Ranch work can teachus about communication and clarity.
How to apply Nick's quiet horse.
First philosophy in any discipline,whether you're a seasoned competitor or

(01:09):
a curious beginner, this conversationis packed with grounded wisdom that
will shift how you think about trainingand how you show up for your horse.
Dear horse world, it's Nick Dowers.
Nick, welcome to theDear Horse World Podcast.
Thanks for having me.

(01:29):
So you have been requested by a couplepeople for, to come on the podcast.
You have many fans, RobertSchultz being one of them.
Yeah.
I would love for you to take us,so if your book, if you were to
write your biography, which I havea feeling you might at some point,

(01:50):
uh, uh, probably just get somebodyelse to help remember that.
But yeah,
what would the first page read?
Oh
man, we're getting deep right off the bat.
Um, I don't know.
Um,
like I'm really big on just like, Itry, I'm not saying I'm there, but

(02:11):
I try really hard to just be a goodperson and a good role model first.
Like that's very, very important to me.
Um, so it would probablybe something like that.
Like I'm not saying I'm there'cause I'm human and I struggle
and I'm trying to grow, but,uh, that's very important to me.
That's primary.
What do you think makes a goodrole model in the horse world?

(02:32):
Hmm.
Truth, honesty,
authenticity, being real, nottrying to be somebody else.
Being confident in what you are andwho you are and what got you there.
Like that's,
that's, that's my checklist.
Yeah.
Are there particular people in the horseworld that have emulated that to you

(02:53):
In various degrees?
For sure.
Yeah, for sure.
Like, I, I definitely, uh, beenblessed to be around some really
good role models in the horse world.
Um, like brand Neubert, Joe Walter,um, gene Armstrong, Russell Reed,
like there, there's been a lot of 'em.
Yeah.
Bill Van Norman.
Um, yeah, I probably the most on thisregard would be like Bill Van Norman.

(03:18):
He had a incredible way ofmaking everybody feel very
welcome and important from.
I mean, I was just a cowboy on his crew.
And when Jackie would come to visit,I mean Jackie felt leave, left
there feeling like she was justas important as me working there.
And it's, it, it was so simple.

(03:39):
Like it wasn't like he went out ofhis way, but he just genuinely cared.
And I, I try to do the same 'causeit's, you know, means a lot.
Do you think that makes an impact whenyou like, 'cause the horse world can be
very inclusive and very exclusive mm-hmm.
All at the same time.
Yep.
And what you're talking about is anenvironment that feels very inclusive.

(04:00):
Mm-hmm.
Do you think that transmutesdown to the horses?
Do you think?
For sure.
For sure.
Yeah.
Like if I walk in, like we're at Roadto the Horse, if we walk into that round
pin right there and we don't let thathorse feel like he can be a part of what
we're doing and he needs to, you know,do all these things for me, not with me.

(04:20):
They know that, like, that, like we.
Um, and it's the sameway with people, right?
I feel like, and so yeah.
The horses, they know that.
And I think, I think that's what you'reseeing with, with some of the, some of
the competitors is some of 'em are verywelcoming and doesn't mean life's roses
and you don't have to work through issues.

(04:41):
But there's a different, there'sa different vibe there for sure.
And that's, that's what Itry to have with my horses.
Okay.
Let's dive into that because you areso, for everyone who's listening and
watching this episode, you are 2016and 2019 Road to the Horse Champion.
I think you're wearingeven your buckle mm-hmm.
From one of them today.

(05:02):
Yep.
Talk me through when you decided youwanted to compete at Rode with a Horse,
and what kind of goes through yourmind when you wanna make that step?
'cause it's a big stage and it'squite, from what I've read, being
here, it's, it's an intimidating.
It's an intimidating environment.

(05:23):
But you don't, I I get thesense that that's not something
that goes through your mind orsomething that you experience.
Um, I, I mean, to some degree, yeah.
The first, the first session ofthe first time I was here for sure.
Like, there's some nerves, there'ssome, but, um, if we go back to the,
the why, um, I like to put myselfin places that force me to grow.

(05:44):
And that's why I wanna do this.
That's why I compete with horses.
Um, uh, I, I like the feeling of theunknown and I like to be pushed to
have to, uh, maybe find a little,little nuance of something that I've
done to take me to the next level.

(06:05):
And without competition, I feellike it's so easy to get stagnant
and doesn't force you to grow.
Um, yeah, it's just, I, Ijust love that feeling of.
Uh, the unknown because it, itpushes me to play, pushes me to
places I didn't know I could go.
And then once you, you get there, thenyou know, then there's, there's, there's

(06:28):
bridges and there's more places to go.
So that's why I compete.
So that's why you're not a cowboy in themountains and we don't know who you are.
Right.
Because if, if you know me, uh,that would be easy for me to be.
'cause I love it.
I love to just be out by myself withmy kids, my crew doing my thing.
But I, I like, I like thecompetitive atmosphere.

(06:49):
I like the growth that thecom competition gives me.
Mm-hmm.
Because if I, whether I go andI fail at a show or fail or
succeed, it's all material things.
But like, whether I go and dogood or I go and do bad, um, I
gotta go home and revamp it and.
The awesome part about where I live.

(07:11):
There's, there's not a, I mean,my nearest, I'm trying to think of
where the nearest competitor to me,or like, uh, in that does what I do.
I mean, it's five, six hoursaway, so it's not like I can
go get help, I gotta go home.
I gotta, I gotta figure it out forme and be better at the next one.
And I love that.
So,

(07:32):
so you live in Nevada, dire Nevada.
Yep.
Can you, like, paint a picture for allof us what your day-to-day life is like?
Whew.
It's busy.
Um, a lot of times, most days,um, depending on the season.
We'll start out in the arena, um,except for when it's hot in the summer.
Um, well, it just depends on what's goingon, but like a lot of days I'll be in

(07:56):
the arena, uh, we'll start early there.
Hopefully I'll get through with my horsesby one two o'clock and then I can go
finish up, do some things on the ranch, gowork on a spring, uh, drive around, check
waters, check cattle, do things like that.
If we're, um, actually ridingand moving things on the ranch,
then it might be reversed.
We might start out at the ranch if it'shot, get the cows moved, do what we need

(08:19):
to do, come back, finish up in the arena.
Um, yeah, I do a lot of that.
And then you mix in the clinics andthe horse shows and stuff like that.
Like we, we, I got a great crewat home and we keep pretty busy.
But you, it would needlessto say you live a life.
That is true.
It seems like it's very true andauthentic to the cowboy way of life.

(08:41):
Like your, your onlineplatform is called Cowboy Week.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
For sure it is.
Yeah.
Like we, um, we are very much, verymuch a ranch and a crew, and, and we
do, we got a lot of things that we do.
Yeah.
Like, we cover a lot of groundand do a lot of things For sure.
So for people who have maybelike watched Yellowstone mm-hmm.

(09:02):
And they, they, it's a, that's a one wouldsay it's hollywoodized maybe slightly
version, or you tell me maybe is ifyou watch that, whether it's authentic.
What's something that if people havewatched Yellowstone and they, they,
they're really drawn to that wayof life, what are some things about
that way of life that they might notrealize or that you could then maybe

(09:26):
open their eyes to a little bit?
Well, I think it's, it, it just takesso many, it takes so many people
to, to make that work, you know?
And it, it's, uh, like an ordeal at home.
Hmm.
You know, my dad and my mom, you know,from my mom taking care of the books to
my dad, taking care of all of us, right?

(09:47):
Like he's, he's got his,his hand in everything.
Hmm.
Um, as far as just from a man managerstandpoint or like a operator.
And it's really good becausehe kinda oversees it all.
And then, like, especially on the cowside of things, I, um, I do the day to
day, but it, uh, it really takes a goodcore group of people, um, all working for

(10:11):
the common goal to, to make it all workfrom the, you know, from the top down.
Um, so that part about it is really cool.
Like, uh, I get the comment a lot,like, what a, they'll see me with
my family interacting or something.
They're like, oh, what a great family.
And it's like, well, we have tobe like, it's, we need each other.

(10:31):
Right.
So it's, it's super pureand it's super honest.
The way that we rely on each other.
I think that part's really cool.
Mm, that's beautiful.
I never thought about that.
Yeah.
Because in this road trip that we'reon, you know, doing this podcast and
learning and experiencing different waysof, of living and ways of being with
horses in the horse world, one thingthat really stands out is ranch kids.

(10:55):
Mm-hmm.
And ranch families have been some ofthe most welcoming and some of the
most remarkable experiences for us.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
And I think that comes just becausethere's a level of responsibility there,
um, that you just, you just can't get.
Like, we rely on 'em, you know?
For sure.
Like, like my, my oldest daughterfor the last I bet, I don't know,

(11:21):
one or two years, she feeds fouror five, 600 cows a day every day.
Like that's just what she does.
Sunday, every day Sunday she'llmeet cows and go have dinner
with her or breakfast with.
It's grandma.
Mm-hmm.
Grandpa every day.
So how
old is she?
She's
17.
Yeah.
Yeah, she's 17.
So, and she's
responsible for five or 600 cows,

(11:42):
uh, depending on howmany is in the feedlot.
Yeah.
But yeah.
Yeah, there might be, I don't know.
I think right now there's probably, huh.
400 head in there thatshe feeds every day.
Yeah.
So it just, things like that.
And, you know, my, my other kids, likemy son is very valuable to me when
we're cowboying and my daughter as well.
So it's, yeah.

(12:03):
It's, it's good.
So Nick, you are the N-R-C-H-Asnaffle bit Futurity champion.
So when you make that transitionfrom the ranch mm-hmm.
To competition.
Yeah.
What's that like when, what, what, whatinspires you to make that decision?
For me, it was, it was just kind ofwhat we spoke or I spoke on earlier, is,

(12:29):
is I like to, I like to be challenged.
I like to meet a goal and, and moveit off, move on to the next one.
So for me, it was at, at the beginningof this horsemanship deal, it's like,
man, it'd be cool if I could geta horse to turn around, like spin.
If I get a horse to slide alittle bit, that would be cool.
And then, you know, once I reachthat, then it's like, well, what
if I can go here and, and show?

(12:51):
And the awesome thing about RainCow Horse is it's, it's just a.
Performance extension of what we doon the ranch anyway, to some degree.
Mm-hmm.
So it was a natural fit.
It's not like I'm doing things withhorses that don't fit on the ranch.
Like, uh, it's just, it's just what we do.
Um, yeah.
It's not as polished and it's not as, uh,precise, but it's essentially, it's, it's

(13:14):
things I'll use my horses for anyway.
So that was kind of a natural, uh,progression and, um, yeah, just putting
myself in positions to be challenged andthat's, that's why I started showing.
Yeah.
So for everyone who's listening,who's maybe from the English world
or from who are, who are justdipping their toe in rodeo mm-hmm.

(13:34):
Or, and what is Rained Cow?
Horse
Rained Cow.
Horse essentially, in a nutshellis if you've seen raining.
Where they run and they slide along ways and they spin, really
spin the horse really fast.
We do that.
Mm-hmm.
That's one that, uh, aspect of it.
And then the other one is cutting.
Um, it's pretty simple, uh, or similar towhat you would think of a cutting horse.

(13:58):
Just hold it out a cow andyou work it back and forth.
So we do that, that's another part.
And then we call it, uh, fence workdown the fence where they let one
out and you hold it on one end of thearena, take it down to those big long
turns and then you circle your cow.
That's, that's what I didyesterday was the fence work.
And it's super exciting.
Like crowds go nuts.
It's very impressive to watch.

(14:18):
Yeah, it's super fun.
So these are all skills that you requireon the ranch when you work in cattle
in some degree.
Like probably the, the least amountI would say would be like, uh.
Maybe a sliding stop or a spin.
You don't really use those, but the,the soft skills it takes to get those,
you use those like just willinglyguided and stops when you pull, like

(14:39):
all those, we use cutting a cow.
It's similar.
Um, the, the way you do it is a littledifferent, um, just technique wise as
far as, uh, football and things likethat are a little different, but the
soft skills are the same for sure.
It's, it's really interestingthat there's a three phase.
Mm-hmm.
Because we have something somewhat,we have three day eventing.

(15:00):
Yeah.
In the Olympic side, which isthree in very important stages.
Yeah.
And in in rain, cow horse, is it measured?
All three are measured the same?
Yes.
But they inform one another andthey're done in a specific sequence.
Is that correct?
Yeah, for the most partthey're done in a sequence.
Um, like some shows, depending, youmight flip flop the reigning and

(15:22):
the herd work, depending on cattlesupplies and things like that.
Those might be flip flop.
But at the end of the day, the fencework's gonna be the last event and
all three scores hold equal weight.
So it's basically athird, a third, a third.
Um,
which one do you have a favorite?
Uh,
I think what's funny about that is it'skind of, that's changed over the years.

(15:46):
So like when I was in my twentiesfor sure, it was the fence work.
'cause it's the most exhilarating.
Right.
Um.
And then it probably went from, there wasthe time when I started where fence work
was probably my favorite to train it.
I'm just talking train at home and things.
And then it went to raining.
Um, I really enjoy just getting a horseon the team and just willingly guided.

(16:09):
Like, I really like that.
Um, and then, uh, now lately, uh, the lastfew years it's been the, the cutting part.
Like just getting that horse to beable to, um, know what that cow's
gonna do before that cow does it.
And just the technique and the,the football and the positions.

(16:29):
Like, that's super intriguing tome 'cause it's, it's like, uh, it's
almost a step up like reigning.
It's just you and the horse where herdwork, it's you, the horse, the cow.
Mm-hmm.
So there's, there's three,three minds right there.
And getting my horse and myself onthe same mind, uh, is, is really fun.
I, I really enjoy that right now.

(16:50):
Okay, I wanna dive into that.
Mm-hmm.
Because, um, you have said somereally interesting things about
your training and that, and theapproach that you take with horses.
But before I ask, before I dive into, orbefore I quote you to, to you, I'd love to
ask you what you look for when you want,when you look for your future cow reigning

(17:17):
champion horse, what are you looking for?
So, I, I buy a lot ofprospects for clients now.
Uh, very blessed in a good, uh, situationwhere I've built a great group of
owners that trust me, uh, believe in me.
And so that's not uncommon for me togo to a sale and they, you know, they.

(17:41):
Buy me a horse, buy mesomething I can win on.
So, um, very blessedto be in that position.
Um, seems like trainers work their wholelife to have that kind of a customer
base that believes in them that much.
Mm-hmm.
And I don't take that lightly, but,um, to answer your point, the first
thing for me is, uh, when I walk inthere, um, like I, and I'm looking at

(18:03):
going through a hundred yearlings, Iwant to see those are as I walk by.
They gotta, there's gotta besomething that catches my eye.
Like, I don't know what it is, but there'ssomething needs to draw me to that horse.
Or I probably won't even go look at it.
Like, there's gotta be anintangible there that you can't
really say, this is what it is.

(18:25):
That's number one.
Uh, then pedigree behind thatand what the pedigree says,
and, you know, confirmation, youjust kind of go down the list.
But I would say first andforemost, like that horse has to,
has to catch my eye in some way.
Like there's gotta be somethingspecial about him to me.
Interesting.
Yeah.
So you believe that there is, and youlook at a hundred horses, do you believe

(18:47):
that there's one in there or two in therethat have, there's something inside them
that is drawing you to them, that there'san intangible that you cannot measure?
Yeah.
Well there's, there'sdefinitely something there.
Yeah, there's, there's, I, I justneed to see, and I don't know if
it's something, I just need to seesomething special in that horse.

(19:08):
Like if I see something that I've,for me would be special, I, I've
gotta be drawn to that horse.
Like I, I need to see the diamondin the rough or whatever it
is before I pull the trigger.
Like for.
Yeah.
And then you go throughpedigree, confirmation movement.
Yeah.
Then, then after that, thenext thing would be pedigree.
And if the pedigree is something that'sa complete outlier or just doesn't match

(19:33):
what I see, like I might not even golook at his legs because I'm like, wow.
Oh man, that's just, that'sjust not, maybe not it.
Or if it's like, well, that could work.
And then, then I go look and demo it.
Yeah.
So this is an important part ofthe process because you're someone
who has taken horses from theirfirst ride to championship level.

(19:54):
Yes.
And that's a very specific skill.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like, um, yeah.
And for sure that's, that's kind of beenmy business for the last little bit.
And, um, and it's been good.
Like, uh, yeah, I've got, I've beenable to do that and duplicate it quite
a few times now, so it's, it's cool.

(20:15):
So something that yourtraining philosophy emphasizes.
Find the, try direct the effortand reward and let it soak.
Could you elaborate on what allof those four elements mean?
Yeah.
Um,
I, I try to look at things through the,like, I wanna really wanna pay attention

(20:41):
to where their mind is and what theirmind is telling me that they need.
Like, whether their mind's telling me thatthey're scared, they're, uh, they're not
focused, they're focused the wrong place.
I like, I, I'm very big on,uh, getting, getting them to
mentally be where they need to be.

(21:03):
To get what we need to get done.
Like, that's huge for me becauseI feel like, um, I kind of talked
about it in the clinic the other day.
If, if I'm working a cow and thehorses let, let's just say he's 50%
present, 50% looking at the crowd.
Mm-hmm.
Like, it's only gonna be so goodbecause yeah, he could reign over there

(21:24):
and I could pull him and, and I couldphysically move him to these places.
But if he's only 50% engaged mentally,he's not gonna be able to use himself
to his full ability to be great.
Right.
He's just not, because he'sonly 50% there mentally.
But if I can take technique and feeland all the things, but get him a

(21:45):
hundred percent mentally connected towhat we're doing, then he's gonna use
the gifts God give him to the fullest.
And that's.
If I can do that, um, we got a, wegot a good chance of being successful.
If, if they're 50%, you know,it's how good can I ride today to
help you be where you need to be?
And I don't wanna, I don'twanna have to ride that good.

(22:06):
I don't want that responsibility.
Like, I, I wanna help you, you, the horse.
Like, I wanna help you get this done.
Like, I don't want to dragyou to where I want to be.
Um, so that's, that's huge for me.
And that's where.
Uh, I'll get the comment like, yourhorses, they last and they just

(22:26):
look different and things like that.
And, and that's kind of my goal becausea horse that is really in tune to
what the task is and they're givingit their all, they just look different
than a horse that's forced a hundred
percent.
They just look different.
And that is my goal.
I'm not there.
Um, I feel like I'm inching closerto that all the time, but that's
the cool thing about horses.

(22:47):
I'll never get there,
but
I'm trying.
Right.
And that's, that's the goal.
And I think if somebody says, yourhorses look different, it's just the
fact that they know what they're doing.
Hopefully, um, not always, but they knowwhat they're doing and they're able to use
their gifts accordingly to get it done.
Some, some are gonna have, youknow, some are gonna be Michael

(23:10):
Jordan athletically and some aren't.
Hmm.
And that's, but if they're onthe team and they're trying,
that's all you can ask for.
Right.
And, and you can get a lotdone with the horses trying.
Yeah.
Can you draw on a story, ahorse that, that epitomizes
this, that helped you find for
sure?

(23:30):
Yes.
Yeah.
Didn't, yeah, that's, that was easy.
So, uh, 2013 snuffle bit 30,uh, time for the Diamond.
Um, that horse, he, he wasincredible in that sense.
And it wasn't anythingI did like that was him.
Like he was the most selfless horseto, uh, take the smallest little

(23:53):
inclination of what he thought I wantedand run with it in a positive way.
Like, he was incredible that way.
And so, like with him, it was, it,it, it, yeah, he, he's just selfless.
He was so selfless in thethings that he thought I wanted.
He would just give it all.
And I've been, I've been tryingto recreate that ever since,

(24:13):
and I have to various degrees.
Um, but I haven't riddena horse that is that.
On the team and that like, justdown to help you like that horse.
So that was fun.
And that was, that was veryearly in my career, very early.
Um, and that was, you know, God putthat horse in my life for sure to show

(24:35):
me, um, I feel like, show me what,what I'm capable of and like to get me
over that step so that I could roll on.
And like, I'm forever gratefulfor that horse, for that.
For sure.
What was his name?
Time for the Diamond?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He's, he's pretty awesome.
Really Awesome.

(24:56):
Did you know that he was the, the sort ofthe top of the pyramid as you could say,
to know that at the time?
Um, yeah.
I had my suspicions like I wasstill green enough or like naive
enough about what it took and Ididn't know, um, like I didn't know.
I knew he was incredible.
But I didn't have the knowledge base orthe experience base to know like, wow,

(25:20):
you know, like if he come back aroundright now, I would be like, oh my gosh.
You know?
'cause I know what I had.
I'd have like, and I knew whatI had, don't get me wrong.
Um, but when other top trainersat the time are just like,
Hey, you know, sell 'em.
Hey, do you wanna sell 'em, you?
I'm like, well, what do I have here?
And that actually built confidence inme to know that I had a horse, that I

(25:41):
was capable to win an event like that.
Because like, that eventis, it's insanely difficult.
Um, you know, like you've got topprofessionals that have been there
whole career and haven't won.
And I was here, I'm mythird time and I win.
Um, that's, that horse carriedthe team, no doubt about it.
Like that horse carried the team.
But having those guys coming, tryingto buy my horse gave, actually

(26:03):
gave me confidence that like, wow.
I. I really, I could do this.
Like I have this, I have this horse.
So it was fun.
And you built him up from his first ride?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, uh, if you just go back to,like you were saying, um, about what
I look for, he, uh, like I've toldthis story quite a bit, but we were

(26:25):
at a horse sale looking at yearlingsand I seen his head and neck sticking
out of a stall from a ways away.
And I rolled over, I went over there.
'cause it's just like,whoa, that is different.
And that's when I bought him.
Really?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And yeah.
Yeah, he just, there was somethingabout the way his head and neck

(26:45):
is, and it's still that way today.
Like he, he's got the coolesthead and neck in my opinion.
Um, so yeah, that's, that drew me to him.
And then I took him home, got him goingand yeah, he's been there ever since.
I think that's really inspiring for peoplewho are listening or watching this episode
because there are a lot of people acrossall different facets of the horse world

(27:06):
that really want and are, are passionateand inspired to find their time.
For the diamond, people wantto find their future star.
Mm-hmm.
In a young horse.
Yep.
But I think people areintimidated by the process.
Yep.
Because it can go so wellor it can go so badly.

(27:27):
A
hundred percent.
Or
not badly, but I mean like it can gomaybe differently than you expected.
Mm-hmm.
What advice would you have for peoplewho are wanting to really emulate what
you're doing, which is to start them superyoung, like to get by them as a yearling.
Mm-hmm.
And then to put their first ride on them.
'cause I know people who are tryingto, who wanna do this in eventing.

(27:49):
I know people who wannado this in show jumping.
I know people who wannado this in barrels.
Like people are really.
This is, I think that's actually in someways to many people like the pinnacle
of horsemanship to have built yourchampion from the very first day mm-hmm.
To, and have them to the very last day.
Right.
Right.
Um, I don't know what my advice would be.

(28:12):
And, and I'm not even against, like,for me it worked because, um, like
as far as going from the very firstride on, because my, my foundation
in horsemanship was cult starting.
So like I was a cult starter,and then I just moved into the
performance all the way to the mm-hmm.
Highest levels of that.

(28:33):
So I kind of started from theground up and worked my way up.
So it was just, it's,it's, it's normal for me.
Um, I get it.
If somebody has somebody they really likeand they send 'em out for a few months
or whatever, like that's, that's fine.
And they just better be somebody youcan ride behind and, and you trust.
But as far as like picking the, uh.

(28:54):
The prospect.
Uh, I don't know how to tellsomebody how to pick one.
Um, but I would say I, what I seea lot at sales is people come over,
what do you think of this one?
What do you think of this one?
What do you think of this one?
It doesn't really matter what I think.
Like I, uh, like find somethingyou, you like, like something

(29:17):
that stands out to you.
Because like I said, what I see in,in, in, uh, time for the diamonds head
and neck isn't what other people see.
'cause I bought 'em for 10,000bucks, so clearly what I seen
wasn't what everybody else seen.
Right.
Find what, find what that is.
Um, and just go with it.
That's what I say.
Like I, I'm, I'm, I'm never one to,

(29:42):
and I don't know how thesaying goes, but, um, if you,
there's, there's certain things.
A guy, uh, a person needs a mentor forand somebody to guide him for sure.
And then there's other things that I say,take a chance on yourself and just do
it like, like, uh, you know, whatever.

(30:05):
Right?
Like
find your own way.
Find your
own way.
Like you don't, if you, if you listen tothree people that are, that are careful
and things like, you'll never blaze yourown trail and take you to places you, you
know, like, I don't know, be an innovator.
Like, I, I don't know.
I don't know what I'msaying, but I love it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm, I'm not afraid to fail and I'm notafraid to try new things because you

(30:29):
never know where the next great thing is.
Right.
Because there's so, I mean, I thinkthat's in general in business and life
and different things, like just you thinkit works for you and it's your vision.
Don't tell people your vision.
'cause they, they don't see,they don't see your vision.
Like they, they see the logicalside, they don't see the vision.
And so.

(30:50):
Like that's, that's whereI kinda left my life.
I love that.
I think that's a really important message.
Yeah.
Because there are a lot of aspects of thehorse world that really foster a lot of
codependence, especially on the drainer.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
You know, it's, you're gonna, and Ithink in some situations, you know,
again, not knocking that Right.

(31:11):
And how empowering is, is it tobe able to look at a horse and
have your own opinion mm-hmm.
To build, to build your own eye.
Mm-hmm.
But that does take.
A certain, you have to choose tobelieve in yourself and what you see.
Yeah.
You have to choose to believe in yourself.
And then the thing about that too islike, you're the one that has to live with

(31:34):
those consequences of buying that horse.
'cause you're the one that's riding him.
Right?
And I've made mistakes a hundred percent.
I've made mistakes.
But if you, if you ride that horse andyou've gotta dig yourself outta that
hole, you're, you're gonna, you're like,what that's gonna do to me, it's like,
and maybe that's just the way my brainworks again, but I'll remember what
that horse looked like in the stall.
Like, like I can almost flashback andbe like, this is the way that that

(31:58):
horse moved when he was a yearling.
And I, sometimes I'll goback and watch a deal.
This is the way that horsemoved when he's a yearling man.
I really see that now.
Going down the fence.
Mm-hmm.
Like as a 4-year-old, like I realor a 3-year-old, I really see that.
I sure I miss that.
And then, but you're, you,you're not gonna miss that again.
Um, you know, so some ofthat just takes time as well.
Like, you're not gonna just go pick theprettiest horse and, and win on 'em.

(32:20):
Like, there's, there's other things to it.
But if you, if you overlook somethingand then two years down the road you're,
you're struggling to get past a mechanic'sthing in the horse or something because
you didn't see it, hopefully you'renot gonna make that mistake again.
It makes me think of the sayingaround mistakes are inevitable.

(32:43):
The trick is not to make a habit of them.
Right?
Yep.
Yep.
That, and I love what you talked aboutearlier in terms of you're gonna fail.
And I love how you put air quotesfor everyone who's just listening.
Yeah.
Like Nick Full put air quotesfor failure and for success
and what I love immediately.
That gave me such an impressionof your relationship with the

(33:05):
concept of failure and success.
Right.
Because like why did you choose air quoteswhen you, when you did, when you talked
about failure and success at a horse show?
Well, like what, what comes to mind rightthere is we're out road of the horse.
Um, keep talking about that I guess.
But, um, I, they asked me in aninterview the other day, uh, like

(33:27):
most memorable moment at Rode tothe Horse or something like that.
And I brought up 2018, the year I lost.
Um, I had a horse that the crowd namedLeroy and Leroy was incredibly difficult.
He would've been incredibly difficultat home, let alone in a competition.
And he was, oh, he was hard.

(33:48):
He was really hard with the circumstancesthat you're, you're given in an event
like this without a saddle horse thatyear, but first round didn't go the best.
Like he wouldn't quitbucking and different things.
And anyway, by the end of thelast round, uh, I had him, man, I
went through half the obstacles.

(34:08):
I'd only been on 'em for probably 10or 15 minutes, and I went through half
the obstacles, like we were rolling.
I just ran outta time and I lost,but I walked outta here feeling like
I just slayed a dragon, so to speak.
Yeah.
But I lost.
So when I think of my mostmemorable moments in competition,
that's like top five for sure.

(34:29):
Cool.
And it was a failure bythe world standards, right?
By the, by the competition standards.
But, uh, like to me, I felt,I mean, I felt like David and
Goliath out there and I won.
Like I didn't win, but.
Yeah.
But you went on your standards
like I was very fulfilled,let's say that way.

(34:51):
Mm. Not
I, I like, I, I've left herelike very proud of what I was
able to achieve right there.
I think that's actually,it's really starting to get
an insight into who you are.
As you explain that to me.
I'm, all I hear is someone who reallymeasures yourself on yourself Yeah.

(35:14):
Versus what is maybetaking place around you.
Right.
Right.
Yep.
If, if, if the year you lost rode to thehorse or you failed as being one of your
top five, like career highlights For sure.
I feel like that saysa lot about you, Nick,
I guess.

(35:34):
Yeah.
I think that's, that'sa horseman's answer.
Yeah.
Right.
And it, it's the truth.
It a hundred percent is the truth.
Like, yeah.
Like that was.
He took me to places in cult, startingin this environment that I didn't know
that I could go or I was willing to go.
Like I would, I, you know, getting ona horse like that in front of this,

(35:55):
like, you are extremely vulnerable.
'cause he could have,like, who knows, right?
Um, and under normal circumstances Ijust would've took more time and it
wouldn't, it wouldn't have, uh, pushedme and Leroy and like, it's not like I
did anything that I, I'm not proud of.

(36:17):
But like, we got on the same page and wewere rolling like, and it was awesome.
I think now I understand listening to you,I understand now why you, why competition
has that special place in your life.
Mm-hmm.
Because it's like this very intensemoment in time, you know, and I

(36:37):
talk like, they talk about how, youknow, pressure is privilege mm-hmm.
And that, you know, you look at.
If you look at Nature diamonds can onlybe created through pressure mm-hmm.
Through a lot of actual,like, quite intense pressure.
And so I've never thought of it that wayuntil sitting in front of you to think
of those moments as these really intense,powerful moments that can create diamonds.

(37:01):
Yeah.
Love it.
Yeah,
for sure.
Well, that's you, you totallyinspired that, so Yeah.
Yeah.
I love that.
Yeah.
No, that's, that's, that's why I do it.
I mean, I mean, that's one ofthe reasons why I do it for sure.
Like, I, I like that.
I like
that.
So what about, you know, we'rehere at Road of the Horse.
There are a competitors who have notdone, who did not build their career

(37:25):
like yourself off cult starting.
Mm-hmm.
They actually come into it fromanother side of the horse world.
Mm-hmm.
And I think maybe as cult starting,I. Finds its way, you know, look, we
have Tick Maynard and Vicki Wilson, tworiders that don't have necessarily have
like a big cult starting background.
Mm-hmm.
And they come from the English world,you know, as the rest of the horse world

(37:47):
maybe draws a little bit more attentionto cult starting and the art of it.
'cause it really is an art form.
Mm-hmm.
What is some advice or maybe areality with people who are listening
going, well, I kind of wanna like,this looks really interesting.
I wanna, I wanna take, I wanna have a go.
Mm-hmm.
I wanna try.
Or, what the heck is Colt startinggonna do from my horsemanship?

(38:08):
Right.
For
me, the colt starting and if we hadhorses in front of it, I could, I
could relate it from beginning to endso easily, but all the same principles
that make horsemanship, horsemanshipand make things work with horses.
All those same principles are thesame ones that you use to halter break
'em, to start 'em, to finish 'em.

(38:29):
Like it's all the same.
The only thing that'sdifferent is the practices.
Whether we're deep in the RockyMountains or down in the heat of Florida,
we trust Yeti products onthis journey of a lifetime.

(38:51):
From the Roadie 48 cooler to the Yetimugs, you see right here in the studio,
Yeti coolers and drinkware are builttough, smooth, and ready for anything
the horse world has in store for us.
So like the practices change, but the,the, uh, horsemanship is the same.

(39:12):
So like, I'll give you an example.
Like when I'm starting a colt, whenI pick up the right reign and I want,
I, I want some flexion to the right.
I not only want him physicallyto bend to the right, I want his
mind to look to the right and Iwon't release until he's physically
soft and his mind is to the right.
Same thing I need when I'mworking that cow yesterday,

(39:32):
and it's incredibly intense.
If, if I slide that neck, ringup that horse's neck, he needs
to take his focus to that cow.
It's the same thing.
It's just, it's just built upon itself.
And it, and it's, I I've always said likethe, the principles are 100% the same.
The way a horse learns isthe way a horse learns.

(39:53):
But the, uh, the practices arejust a little, a little bit
different, but it's all the same.
So it's, it's been reallyinteresting to me to, um.
The last few years I've started minimalcults compared to what I used to.
Um, and it, and most of 'emin the performance deal.

(40:15):
We started 'em in January,February, sometimes December.
Somewhere in there.
We'll start 'em and get 'em going.
But anyway, like, so it'skind of a one year event now.
Where before it was all year long.
Story short, every time, every year whenI go back and start horses, I feel like
I'm like, I've grown and I'm better.
And I haven't worked on the techniqueor the, the practices, but my mental, my

(40:38):
mental, uh, game for the horses and my, mymental game and technique there is better.
So it's been really interestingto me that I haven't started
near the horses that I used to.
But I feel like every year I'vegotten, I've taken a step forward,
even though I'm not even doing it.
But it's 'cause it's the mental game.

(40:58):
I'm noticing a pattern, which isyou refer a lot to the thought.
And the mind of the horse whensomeone's watching rode to
the horse for the first time.
Mm-hmm.
What should they look for when you talkabout having the mind, because I now,
this is my second year watching, I cannow start to understand the difference.
Mm-hmm.
When the thought becomes evidentbetween the, the rider and the

(41:27):
horse and the rider mm-hmm.
The col and the starter, you can startto see it, but you have to watch a
lot to be able to recognize those.
Yeah.
For for sure.
And when you can see when the thought,you know, I was watching yesterday,
you could see when the thought wasthe, the bo the body was moving,
but the, the mind was not moving.
For sure.
Yep.
Can you explain though, for those who aremaybe first, maybe they have just started

(41:48):
watching Road to the Horse, maybe they'rea fan of Tig Maynards and they, or Vicki
Wilson's, and this is the first yearthat they've watched Road to the Horse.
When you go into that round pen.
Mm-hmm.
How and why?
Are you thinking and focusingand prioritizing the mind of

(42:08):
the, of the cult versus the body?
Yeah.
Um, I think first thing it, when yougo in there, like you've gotta find,
if we're talking like specificallyto road to the horse is like
that they need to feel welcomed.
Like the horse needs to feel like, okay,this guy's got my interests at, at heart.

(42:30):
Like he can tell that I'ma little insecure about the
situation, the, the goings on.
Am I inviting to him?
Like, and inviting can be like asoft word and be like, oh, I'm just
gonna pet him and rub him and no.
Like, they'll get sick of that in abouta minute and they'll realize you really
don't have anything to offer them, right?

(42:50):
Mm. But if, if you offer them like leadin, uh, leadership and just guidance of
where like, Hey, I know this is scary.
I'm gonna take you under my wingand we're gonna go do these things.
Like, come on, I got you.
Like, I know it'schallenging, but look at this.
You can do this, you can do this.
That's my mindset.
Right.
Cool.
And um, 'cause when you just go, like,what is a big turnoff for me is when

(43:13):
somebody goes in there and they just startworking on like, physical and technique
and like, I'm gonna get your hindquartersand I'm gonna like physically move you.
And it's just technique.
And it's like, whoa, whoa,whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Like, what is like, let's, let's offerthat or something a little bit better.
Like deeper.
Deeper.
Um.
And some horses take a littlelonger to respond to that.

(43:34):
And like I with that doesn't meanit's, it's all, uh, you know, petting
and standing there because that's,that's only gonna get you so far.
Like, they need, they need somebodyto take 'em under their wing and
feel good about going to work.
Um, that's, I don't know ifthat answered your question, but

(43:55):
well, correct me if I'm wrong, but Ilove how you said, I think it's very
enlightening for you to say, or, orat least revealing for me to, for
you say like, you know, you can rubon him and love on him, but that's
not gonna, that's gonna be goodfor like the first minute or two.
And then they're gonna be like, okay.
And Yes.
Right.
Yeah.
And so leadership mm-hmm.
Is, and tell me if thisresonates with you.

(44:18):
Leadership is timing.
Leadership is being able to pivotin the moment based on the feedback
that that call is giving you.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Leadership is feel, leadershipis recognizing when.
The, when you've asked too much.
Mm-hmm.
Or you've, you know, you're being, the,the cult is being generous in that moment,
and you find what you need to find.

(44:39):
Mm-hmm.
And then you give them a break.
Mm-hmm.
Like, you even say in, in your saying,you talk about letting them wear it.
Let 'em soak, let 'em soak.
Yeah.
And I was like, Ooh, this refer is,this reminds me of the Martin back,
Martin Black talks about the cocktail.
Mm-hmm.
Like allowing Yeah.
The, the neuroscience Yep.
Behind horses.
Yep.
To work in your favor.
And this is what I found has foundfascinating in this journey of

(45:01):
the podcast, learning how manycowboys are actually like I would,
so like closeted neuroscientists
for sure.
Yeah, for sure.
And it, it, it would work, uh, it can workin your favor or it can work against it.
And it just depends on, like, that's
the
soap period, or thebreak or whatever it is.

(45:22):
Like, if it's not timed right, it'snot gonna have the same effect either.
Mm-hmm.
Like, so it's gotta be timed right.
Like I. I like to get just to thepoint of where it's about to break
through, like physically break through.
'cause like right before it physicallyhappens, like lets say it just physically

(45:43):
you get the hindquarters, right?
Yeah.
Right before that physically happens,mentally there's a switch 'cause
they're preparing their body andit's, it's about to happen like
mentally they've switched physically.
Maybe it hasn't come out yet.
Mm-hmm.
If you can release when theymentally switch, oh my gosh.
Like you can roll with them andyou leave them wanting more 'cause

(46:05):
because they feel what it feltlike before it actually happened.
And so if you can leavea horse wanting more Wow.
Like they, they roll quick.
Um, and so like I always try to,um, get the release, like one of
my kind of sayings is the closerI can release for the thought.

(46:27):
The, the more impact I'll have.
So like if, if a horse is gonna dosomething, you know, first they'll
think about it, then they'llprepare and then it happens.
Right?
And if, if, if I can release, ifI'm setting something up and I can
release as they're thinking beforethey even prepare, before they action.
So like.
When you're getting going, you're gonnahave to see the, like if you, if you

(46:49):
haven't like paid attention to thisstuff or like really thought about
it first, you're gonna have to seethe action and then you can release
for the action and get what you want.
And that works.
But you can take it another level, likeyou could release for the preparation.
That'd be the next step.
Or you can release for the mind switch.
My goal is to release, like I'm alwaysconstantly trying to get it down to

(47:10):
where the mind takes a hold of it.
Then the body prepares, then the action.
The closer you release to thethought, the more impact you'll have.
The less, the less times you would haveto set a certain scenario up to get the
same effective result because it's soclose to what they, they know exactly
what you're asking because it was, assoon as they thought about it, pressure

(47:32):
went away versus they thought about it.
Five I. 20 seconds ago and it took theirbody and then you released for the body.
And that's fine.
Like if you're, when you're learning,like I'll miss it sometimes and I'll have
to release for the body, that's fine.
But you're gonna have more impactif you can see that happen sooner.
That's my goal.

(47:53):
I wonder whether,
and the horses know,
okay, God, because I was gonna say likeif I were a horse, if I imagined myself
as best I can, if someone were to releasepressure on my thought versus my action
or my preparation for that action mm-hmm.
I would feel as thoughthat person sees me.

(48:16):
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
So when we talk about, you know,like the inherent need to be
seen, felt, heard, understood.
Yep.
These are like basic core needsof all, you know, in a lot of
aspects of relational life.
Mm-hmm.
When you think of our lives with horses.
To feel seen.
That is how we feel.
That's how we help horses feel seen by us,and therefore, the bridge of trust begins.

(48:41):
Yep.
That's ex, that's a hundred percent.
And that's, that's the, uh,welcoming, the inviting, the thing
that I was talking about that Iwant to get developed with my horse.
Like the ability to beunderstood means so much to them.
And I feel like sometimestechnique can get in the way
and they don't feel understood.

(49:02):
And it, and understood doesn't meanthat they're not gonna struggle here.
And then, oh my gosh, that is,that gate is wide open, right?
Mm-hmm.
So I, uh, yeah, that's what I mean,because, uh, a horse doesn't feel
understood if they're botheredand you're petting them and you're
not helping them get unbothered.
Mm. Like, it, it, it doesn't mean much.

(49:23):
Right.
But these things, like you're saying, froma self-preservation standpoint, uh, from
their standpoint, that feels good to them.
Right.
So that's, that's my goal.
Well, it would, I would imaginethat that then it's where method
is then put down and sort ofpresence and feel is then picked up.

(49:45):
Right.
Because method to me would then suggestthat you have a pre-established agenda.
Right.
Which means that you're then notobserving moment to moment what's
taking place in front of you, right.
Which means you are not ableto actually technically sort
of release to the thought.
Mm-hmm.
Because you already have apreconceived notion of what you want
and how you want the body to move.
Exactly.
Exactly.

(50:05):
And, and you will get results and, andyou'll get results to a certain extent.
Like you will get physicalresults to a certain extent.
Um, I'm, I'm not denying that at all.
Um, but for me, I want that horse likewe talked about that just has that
extra look of willingness on the team.

(50:28):
Um.
The thing about it, if they knowwhat to do, their individualness
can come out and flourish.
Mm. If they're mechanical, itlooks mechanical like, and,
and that's the difference.
Right.
To me,
you can ask the difference betweenlike the art and the science of it.
Mm-hmm.
Because I think it's importantwe understand our fundamentals.

(50:49):
We understand how and whywe have the body for Yeah.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
The biomechanics, thesethings are important.
Yep.
And yep.
If you want that feeling of like telepathy
mm-hmm.
That every single, I have found,every single rider, great riders
from all disciplines, talk aboutthat connection, that tel, that
telepathy between horse and rider.

(51:10):
Mm-hmm.
If you want that mm-hmm.
Then you have to,
you have to, you have to worktowards it and like, to me,
this is how you do it for me.
Yeah.
Yep.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You have to work towards it and.
And like I, I'm not saying that it's badto release for their physical actions.
Like if I'm, if I'm learning orI'm helping somebody or working on

(51:33):
myself, like there's times whereI'm gonna miss it and I'm gonna
release, or the physical thing.
Mm-hmm.
But I wanna see what happened beforethose, like maybe what happened two things
before, and try to get as close to that.
I'm always trying to get as close tothat as I can, but there's a hundred
percent, there's gonna be countlesstimes throughout a day where I'm
gonna miss it and I'm gonna haveto release for the physical thing.

(51:54):
It's just, it's, there's no way around it.
Like, there's no way around it.
Well, and I love that invitation orthat, um, maybe that check in this moment
where you're saying, you know, just beaware of the fact that this is a process.
Mm-hmm.
That as you, like this isan art that you develop.
For your entire lifetime.
Yep.
And then you die.
Yeah.

(52:15):
Yeah.
Sorry, y'all.
Yeah.
That's like kind of, it's kindof, you know, not crude, but like
it's a bit straight straight.
Mm-hmm.
But I'd say that that's the more Ispeak to great horsemen and horse
women, the more that becomes evidentthat this is just, this is you're
getting closer and closer to the thing.
Mm-hmm.
Closer and closer to that feel.
And then you might get it and you mightget closest to it, and then you'll,

(52:37):
your body fails you or something.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then you, and thenyou leave this moral life.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's, I think that's why we love 'em.
It's like kinda like golf or something.
You just can't ever, there's no mastery.
There's really no mastery.
Like there's, there's levels, but there'sno, it's not like you can ever get it.
I'm curious to ask you a question aboutwhen people, I've heard a lot of really

(53:02):
great horsemen and horse women saythat, you know, like horses are simple.
I've even heard some say horses are dumb.
And yet when we talk about theirability to soak on the thought and
that I've, I've also had great horsemenand horsewomen say that, you know, you
have a session, you let that horse,that horse is gonna go think mm-hmm.

(53:23):
About what you did, andthen we'll come back.
And we've watched that with thecolts that rode to the horse.
Mm-hmm.
Like, you can see thatthey've thought mm-hmm.
And they've built off ofwhat happened yesterday.
Mm-hmm.
There's something about it that,that in my mind, that challenges
this idea that horses are simple.
If they have an ability to sitand think about what took place
Yeah.
Prior.

(53:43):
Yeah.
I kind of wanna challenge the horseworld, that this idea that I think they're
simple in, that they're straightforward.
They don't have, you know, like VickiTalks, Vicki Wilson talked about it
this week in her, in her demonstrationlike that horses are not malicious.
They don't come out tryingto make you have a bad day.
Right.
But I kind of wanna, what do you, whatwould you say if I said, I kind of wanna

(54:04):
challenge this idea that horses aresort of simple, like simplistic, almost
alluding to a lack of intelligence,because an ability to think about
everything that you've worked on,the ability to like, integrate that.
Mm-hmm.
Integration is one of the mostimportant aspects of life.
Mm-hmm.
And they, I think, do that.
It's giving 'em the opportunity.
Do that incredibly well.
Well, they're brilliant.
Yeah.

(54:25):
They, they do it negatively or positively.
Like are they, are they, are theysimple in the fact that they're they're
pure and they're gonna be the same.
Um, and they'll take you from whereyou are and, and they can take a
good handler and be good or bad.
Yes.
They're incredibly simple that way.
Like they, their selfpreservation is what it is.

(54:47):
And they wanna be comfortable.
They're simple in the facts.
They have their checklist ofthings that they want to get.
They wanna feel, right?
Yes.
They're simple there.
Yeah.
But like, they're very, they'rebrilliant in the fact that
they can, they can move on.
Like, I, uh, kind of what come to mindis if somebody, um, makes a comment,

(55:09):
like, I've been working on X and Ijust, uh, I've been working on, let's
just call it loading in, in a trailer.
Yeah.
And it took me 30 minutesyesterday, and then I come out
today and it, it took me 30 minutesagain to get him in the trailer.
And like, I, like, I get what Ineed to get, but I just feel like
the horse doesn't retain anything.

(55:30):
Um, so then instantly what's triggeredin my mind is it's your idea.
It's if it's your idea, like eventuallyyou will wear your idea into 'em and
they will do it, but there's not gonnabe any retention because there's,
there's nothing for them to go soakon because they didn't have it.
They didn't have an opinion.
So there's nothing for them to soak on,so they're not gonna retain anything.

(55:51):
But if you, if you taught 'em, andyeah, maybe they're not gonna be perfect
the next time, but like, if I did myjob, say, loading a horse in a trailer
and say we struggled and it, it took,there was some, some history there
or whatever, and it took 30 minutes.
If I did my job the next day, Iwould be disappointed in myself
if it didn't take less than 10.

(56:13):
Mm-hmm.
Like, it, it needs to be at leastcut in half and then by the third
session, he should walk right in.
Right.
And I'm talking about a horse that wouldbe really troubled on something like that,
but it, if you do your job and you leavethem at the right place and you didn't
physically do it, you taught them howto do it, every session will get better.

(56:35):
So, like, uh, Joe's, uh, Joseph's atRode of the Horse, his colt was kind of
a stuck little guy, not super forward,and really struggled on being free.
Able to just travel and go likedidn't, wasn't really on that.
And um, that was, uh, there was somethingthere that I think just flew over the

(56:57):
heads of a lot of people to me, gettinga horse free, this is a good example of
kind what we're talking about, gettinga horse free, um, physically is a
state of mind, not a speed or a gate.
So like if, just because ahorse loping doesn't mean that
they're free, like, uh, mentally.

(57:20):
And so you can work on getting a horseto elope from a stop to a just movement.
And that's what we were doing.
Like when he got on it.
There was lots of baby stepsof understanding there.
And, uh, by the end of that session, um.
I'm in the round pin.
I, I, I remember it clear as day.
I'm in the round pin, I'm helping Joe, andthere was a couple times where he'd ask

(57:43):
her to go and then I'd kind of back him upand that horse like started really smooth
and then, and then ended just lickinghis lips and just trotting his soft, and
it's free mentally that horse had it.
So I'm like, sweet Joe, we're done.
Like, we gotta quit.
Like she, if we end herthinking and feeling that way
tomorrow, she's gonna be better.
And sure enough, tomorrow, the nextday she was quite a bit better.

(58:07):
And then as a horse learns, like they'regonna have their ups, their downs and
like, it's, it's like this on the way up.
Right.
So the next day, because we left her sogood, she started out like nailing it.
Yeah.
But she still had to go through her cultmoment where in the middle of that ride
she kind of went back and she's like,I need, I don't know if this is really.
What I think it is, I'm gonna try mydeal again and see about getting stuck.

(58:30):
And she got stuck in the middleand then we left her, uh,
mentally in a good place again.
So he hadn't loped his horse, uh,by himself in the saddle one time.
Then in the finals, um, he goes, rides itin the round pin goes for his rail work.

(58:51):
He's got to declare a elope.
Yeah.
Across the side.
He asked that horse, was it free?
It was the freest horse there.
Yeah.
And he's never loped it in thesaddle and freeness, isn't it?
We taught that horse how to do it, butit, it could get overlooked because
there wasn't the motion, but it wasthe thought we were teaching and that's

(59:12):
the fruits of our labor right there.
So like versus, you know, you'llsee some, some other things,
especially in this competition ifyou get caught up thinking it's.
Getting a horse free and movingis a physical thing, and you're
just chasing a physical thing.
After a while, you can seethose horses shut down.
Yes.
And that's, that's what we're seeing.

(59:32):
So that's when someone'swashing and they go, Ooh, that
horse looks like glazed over.
Yep.
It's because they're, the attention hasbeen made to the body, not the mind.
Yeah.
Or, or, um, a good thing is turninginto a bad thing, like what was good
to move out because we, we want thingsfor our selfish things to, to get.

(59:55):
You know, we think, oh, I gotta elope.
I gotta do this.
This is for me, for me, for me, for me.
You miss the fact that that horseis genuinely trying really hard.
And he's like, man, whatI, it's never enough.
It's never enough.
I quit.
And that's where they shut down.
Mm-hmm.
And then they start trying new things.
Like, maybe I'm gonna buck with a saddle.
Uh, maybe I'm gonna buck with a rider.
Maybe I'm gonna rub on the fence.
Like, because he tried beforeto some degree, and he didn't

(01:00:20):
feel like that was enough.
He, in his mind, he felt like,man, it's never enough with you.
I guess I'm on my own.
I'm on my own.
Maybe I'm gonna, you know,start ragging my head.
Maybe I'm gonna startbucking a little bit.
And that's where
we ruin the try.
That's where you ruin the try.
'cause we're
being greedy.
Yep, yep, yep.
And I'm not saying I've never done it.

(01:00:40):
I, I mean, I know a lot aboutit because I've done it.
Same.
I was just thinking, I was like, Ican think of moments, I've been greedy
for sure.
Like, and, and as long as Ithink it's good to talk about,
because then we can look back andwe can think of those moments.
Yeah.
And you know, that's where a horsefeels, uh, I don't ever want my horse
to feel like I don't recognize whenthey're giving an effort or trying.

(01:01:05):
Um, because once they shutdown there, it's really hard.
Really hard.
Yeah.
Like I, some of the hardest horsesthat I've worked with are ones that
have been trained 'cause they'vebeen trained to do not to think.
And that does, that's hard for me.
And it's hard.
They're such a callous there.
It, yeah.
The horse might physically dothings, but if they don't think

(01:01:26):
it's just, it's so different.
It's so different.
Um, and so, and I'm not saying itdoesn't work 'cause it does work
for some people to a certain extent.
It does.
It does.
Like it
works on paper.
Yeah.
You know.
Yeah.
But there's something, I feel like whenyou start to see the difference mm-hmm.
When you start to, youcan feel the difference.
You can't unsee it.
You can't unsee
it, you can't unsee it.

(01:01:46):
Yep.
Also, and I'm not sayingI gotta figure it out.
Mm-hmm.
But that's, this is whereI'm working towards.
Right.
But that's what this podcast is about.
Right, right.
Is to talk about, is to be honest mm-hmm.
About the process.
Mm-hmm.
And then to be able to find all ourdifferent language around, because it
makes me think as we're talking, I'mthinking how important it is for us

(01:02:09):
as riders or as horsemen or as horsewomen, to understand what we are trying
to do and why before we even do it.
Mm-hmm.
In some ways.
Mm-hmm.
Because when we talk about having thehorse's mind and having the horse's body,
I actually think about a lot of aspectsof riding being, having the rider's
body, but not having the rider's mind.

(01:02:29):
Mm-hmm.
And that's where we kindof become methodical.
Mm-hmm.
Is because we actually don't.
Maybe understand the depth of whatwe're trying to achieve and why, why?
So if we don't have our own mind
mm-hmm.
Then how can we Right.
Find that depth with our horses.
Yeah.
A hundred percent.

(01:02:50):
And so, like, I, I am really bigon, it's, it's uh, like attention
to detail and being better.
Like, it, it starts with theway you feed your horses and the
way you take care of your barn.
Like for me, like, I'll get young peoplein and like, I know they're thinking, man,

(01:03:14):
I, I wanna be able to ride that horse.
I'm gonna be able toride this horse, do this.
And, and I'll, I'll tell 'em like, I can'ttrust you to ride a six figure horse.
If I can't trust you to adjustthe feed ration to a horse that's
skinny versus a horse that's fat.
Like if you, if you, if you can't makethose adjustments to the feed, to the

(01:03:36):
feed, it, it's, it might be, mightbe super minor or if I can't, if I
can't, if you're gonna leave halter'slaying around the ranch and you're not
gonna pay attention to that detail,how, how can you pay attention to the,
the, the smallest little detail that'snot even physical in front of you?
How, and so like, I think you cantrain, you've gotta train your mind to

(01:04:00):
be disciplined in things that take notalent, to take it to the things that take
incredibly, like, it's so, it's so small.
It's so small.
And like, to me that's a big deal.
Um, maybe I'm crazy, but I,I feel like that is huge.
Right.
No.
As you're talking, I'm thinking of Mr.
Miyagi and Karate Kit.

(01:04:21):
You know, wax,
that is so funny.
'cause that's what my help says.
They're like, Nick, wellMr. Miyagi you to death.
Like, 'cause it, it,
yeah.
That's so funny.
You said
you're missing, you'relike, Mr. Miyagi the
world.
I am.
I
love that.
Yeah.
Because that, my
help is gonna laugh at that
because it's, well, I love, I mean clearlythen it's true because if, if, if people

(01:04:41):
who've never met each other mm-hmm.
Refer to that, then I think, 'causewhat it, what it reminds me of is you're
saying that, and as you're saying thatmy whole, I'm just like smiling from
year to year, because I don't think youunderstand that when you're young and
you're maybe a little bit more ego driven.
I know that I was mm-hmm.
Yeah.
You know, same, you know, like,you just, you wanna do same, you
same do, do do, do same, right?

(01:05:02):
Mm-hmm.
And I think it comes from aplace of wanting to feel seen.
Mm-hmm.
You wanna be, you wanna be recognized, youwant to like, you wanna prove yourself.
And those are all really important.
There are really important attributes.
They're really important attributes.
Mm-hmm.
And.
I love, you're like, that's likesuch a dope call to action, Nick.
Like, care about where you placethe halters, care about your

(01:05:24):
food, Russians care about how yourun things from A to Z. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Because they inform every aspect ahundred when you're in the saddle.
A hundred percent.
Yeah.
And it's not that I'm OCD thisor like, it's gotta be perfect.
No, it doesn't have to be perfect, butit needs to, it needs to be in order.
You, you have to be like, disciplinedof doing the things is huge.

(01:05:49):
Right.
Like you, you, they're huge to me.
What on that vein, what do you see thatsometimes the horse world overlooks
that is actually really importantin terms of whole horsemanship?
If we're looking at from sundown to, youknow, from sun up to sundown, horsemanship
as a way of life, just not something youdo, but something that you are, what is

(01:06:10):
something that you think people mightoverlook when you, in that miss from Mr.
Miyagi?
What is something that peopleoverlook that really informs,
I'm really big on just like, justnoticing things like is huge.
Like, I don't know, just the abilityto notice something from a distance

(01:06:31):
that I just, the ability to observe,remember, and compare and notice
things like, 'cause like notice,remember, observe, remember compare.
Cool.
That's the Tom Dorrance dealis observe, remember, compare.
Um, like that's huge.
Like, just like for me.
I'll be riding in the arena and therecould be a horse at my, like, up in, in

(01:06:55):
the barn a long ways away, and I'll belike, wow, it's you guys just fed a half
an hour ago and that horse is laying down.
Go, go see what's going on right there.
Hmm.
Like he shouldn't belaying down right now.
Like he just got fed a half an hour ago.
20 other horses are up eating,why is he laying there?
Like, just to be able toseed things like that.
So like, to me, to be able to spot thatis learned by being able to be like,

(01:07:17):
I better not leave that brush there.
I'm gonna throw that in a basket today.
Like, just being little things thatare out of order or, um, and it, this
is gonna make it sound like I'm likea clean freak, but I'm really not.
I just, I just notice those things.
Like being able to notice that isgonna lead you to be a better horseman.
Because you'll notice that horsethat's laying down a little earlier

(01:07:40):
than normal or, or that's normal.
Hey, that's, that's old foot.
He's, he always lays down quick.
Mm-hmm.
Like, that's huge to me.
Oh, I mean, I guess being able toobserve, remember comparison is huge.
I love that.
Yeah.
So there's one question Iwanted that I think actually my
whole team wanted to ask you.

(01:08:00):
Oh,
geez.
Which was, for English writers, arethose in performance focused spaces?
What do you think they couldborrow from the cowboy mindset
that would, that's actually hard forme to speak on because I don't know
anything about the English world.

(01:08:22):
So I, I, I, I, that's, I don'tknow, because it would be, I don't.
Like, I have no experiencethere, like none.
Um, when I hear that, I think,what could I borrow from there?
Um, more than I think the other way.
What could, do you have an idea ofwhat you could borrow from them?
I,
no, because I, I'm so ignorant on it.

(01:08:42):
Like,
I don't know, that'dbe hard for me to say.
Isn't
that a fascinating part of our industryor the, of the horse world, is that we, we
all have this common thread and this love.
Mm-hmm.
And you're not alone.
Like, I have had Olympians in this studiofrom the, from English disciplines that
have very little to Absolutely no, youknow, they would've fumbled over, like,

(01:09:05):
they would've been like, what's a snaffle?
Bit futurity, right?
Yep.
And yet here we are, this entire,this incredible industry or this
world, I call it the horse worldmore than me in the industry.
We have the horse world wherewe all share this common thing.
We all love horses and we alldo different things with horses.
But we all fundamentallystarted, I think, mm-hmm.
With the same.
Yes.
Core feeling.

(01:09:26):
Yeah.
There's so menace.
Yeah.
Right.
And yet I feel like we'relike world worlds apart.
Yeah.
You're like worlds apart.
And it's, it, I'm kindof fascinated by that.
Mm-hmm.
You know what I mean?
Because I don't know if othersports or other lifestyles,
'cause we're both, we're a sport.
Do you agree with that?
That we're both a sport and a lifestyle.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

(01:09:46):
Like, uh, subculture.
Yeah.
Right.
And we're like a culture, likeit's like a culture, a lifestyle,
and a sport all at the same time.
Yeah.
Right.
And yet there'll be, you can be like,it's like having two tribes on two
ends of the other side of the world.
Mm-hmm.
That actually have a lot in common.
Right.
But they may have never interacted before.
Yeah.
That's
I'm, that's me.
Fascinating though.
No.
Yeah, it is.

(01:10:07):
It
is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It really is.
Well then maybe, let merephrase the question.
What could the rest of the worldborrow from the cowboy mindset?
What could the world borrowfrom the cowboy mindset?
Um, I don't know if it's if it'sa, a cowboy deal or if it's just,

(01:10:32):
I don't know the way I was raised or what,but like to me they, the question was
what, what does it mean to be a cowboy?
And this'll kind of segue towhat does it mean to be a cowboy?
So like, for me, it's kind of where Istarted this, like, it's just integrity
and just, you know, being a good person,all those skills, like, to me like that's,
that's cowboy like, um, and I think ooverwhelmingly like that's pretty true.

(01:10:56):
Yeah.
People, people are people and you know,you're gonna have that days and whatever,
but, um, like to me that's being, beinga cowboy, like, it, it's like, like
you spoke about, uh, the ranch kids.
Like they're just, there'ssomething different.
Like, to me that's, that's cowboy culture.
That's cowboy.
Yeah.
Um, it's all skill set aside.
To me that's, that's cowboy cowboys like.

(01:11:18):
This being, being that, like, beingthat and like, uh, for Joe, uh, like
the Mr. Miyagi deal, Joseph, he mm-hmm.
He worked for me.
And, um, and so like, I feel likehis Mr. Miyagi lesson, this trip has
been, um, like we've been talkinga lot about just, you know, this is

(01:11:42):
probably the, the first time Joe's hadnotoriety for what he's been doing for
years, but he's got notoriety for it.
And people come up and tell him howgood he's doing and things like that.
I'm like, that is awesome, Joe.
I like, don't use that for your ego.
Like, when somebody comes up toyou, like fill their cup, like fill
their cup and don't let them, youknow, don't dump into your ego.

(01:12:04):
Like use that to fill their cup.
Like, um, that's a, like,that's a huge part of, of.
Leadership and, and being out thereto me is like, I, I want to, I wanna
fill their cup when they come to me.
Like I don't want them to dump into mine.
Like I, I've got enough self-confidenceand like, I, I'm secure in where I am.

(01:12:25):
I, I, it makes my day to make their day.
Like that's what Joe's Mr.Miyagi lesson has been this week.
Like, you, you got the horsemanshipup, you're doing great.
Like, let's fill their, let's, let'smake their day when they come and talk
to you because of the, the way you make'em feel invited and like all the things
that you do with your cult, let's dothat to the people that come to you.

(01:12:46):
Like that's his, oh, wow.
That's his Mr. Miyagi.
Like yesterday, it made my day somebodycome by the booth and we were chatting
and they said, uh, they, they remindedme of something that I said in a
clinic five years ago, six years ago.
And they're like, yeah, we got, wegot your sticker on your fridge.
And I look at my wife, I was like, man,you don't realize the impact that you have

(01:13:07):
on people in such a small little thing.
So it's, it's humbling.
It's an honor.
And I don't take it lightly.
And I put a lot of pressure onmyself to, um, fill their cup.
That's my goal.
Right.
Okay.
Can I reflect something as I'mlistening to you, I, I wonder
what you think about this.
I'm gonna reflect backto you what I think.

(01:13:28):
Okay.
Now I'm starting to understanda bit about the Cowboy way.
Yep.
And it feeds into this, what I'veobserved in ranch kids, which is.
From sun up to sundown, you are inservice to something other than yourself.
Yeah.
And there's a level, you talkabout, you know, humility,
you talk about responsibility.

(01:13:49):
Mm-hmm.
You talk about being a good person,
there is this inherent energyof responsibility mm-hmm.
That I feel in cowboys.
Yep, yep.
There is a, and you talk about like yourdaughter, you know, she's responsible
for feeding five, 600 head of cattle.
There is an inherent levelof responsibility for

(01:14:13):
something other than yourself.
Yep.
Which I now under, I'm startingto understand why it is.
So maybe in some ways romanticizedin some ways, beautiful.
In some ways, alluring insome ways captured mm-hmm.
By modern society, because I wouldargue that society has never been
more selfish than it is right now.

(01:14:33):
Right.
Right.
Yep.
Yeah.
I, I think you're onto it for sure.
So the cowboy is the antidote
Yes.
To the hyper independenceof modern society.
Yeah.
It's the, no, I wake up and I amin service to the lives of others.
Yeah.
Lives, lives of others.
Yeah.
That's, that's, that's the goal, right?

(01:14:55):
And, and all this stuff thatI've talked about today.
It's not, I'm, this iswhat I'm striving for.
Like, it's not like I, I would hopein a year we come back and I'd,
I'd be better at all these things.
Right?
Like it's, it's like the horse.
Like you never get too good at it.
And, um, authenticity and just beingauthentic in the way that you go about it.

(01:15:18):
'cause you can try to fillsomebody's cup, inauthentically
and they will see it a mile away.
Right.
I love it.
It's a, it's a goal.
It's not a, it's not where I'm at.
It's a, all this stuff is a goal.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
I'm gonna.
Wrap up every episode like I alwaysdo, and I'm very excited to hear, oh

(01:15:41):
geez, your answers to these questions.
Okay.
If you could read one book to thehorse world, what would it be?
One book to the horse world.
Well, I think everything we've talkedabout today is, for me, it's my faith and

(01:16:02):
it's, it's, uh, you know, it's the wayit, it's, it's just the way that I'm, I
feel, led to lead my life through Christ.
So I would say like, the closer youare to the creator of the being, the
animal we're trying to work with, the,the, the easier it becomes, right?

(01:16:26):
Yeah.
Because all the ego, all the thingsthat we, we, we want to stay away
from, like, that's, that's not.
That's not the path.
Right.
So that, that's that'd be my answer.
So would it be the Bible?
It'd be the Bible, yeah.
It'd be faith, it'd be, it'd be Christ,it'd be, that would be like, uh, yeah.
To die to self is gain, you know, to dieto the things of the flesh, to world.

(01:16:50):
The wins is gain.
Right.
That's beautiful.
That's, that's the base of it all.
Like for me,
who is the most iconic horse in history?
Uh, for me it's time for the diamond.
I mean, for me it is.
So, I mean, I, I don't know.

(01:17:11):
Uh, but for me it's time for the diamond.
'cause he, he, uh, you know, he, he let mebelieve in myself before I really had the
resume to even think that I could belong.
He, he, he put me outthere with the big dog.
So for me it's time for the diamond.
What is the most undervaluedskill as a rider?

(01:17:34):
Um, the most undervalued skill asa rider, I would say, maybe not
undervalued, but I would say likejust, I see so many people not thinking
and just going through the motions.
Like, not even like, uh, justgoing through the motions.

(01:17:54):
Like, I'd say that is being ableto be present and observing.
Remembering and comparing like momentto moment is everything to the horse.
'cause that's whatthey're doing constantly.
They're not going through the motions.
Like you can teach 'em and you can, youcan teach 'em to go through the motions.
And a lot of people do, for sure.
A lot of people do.

(01:18:15):
You can teach 'em to go through themotions, but I want them present.
And in order for them to be present,I have to be present as well.
So that would be important to.
Yeah,
that's a good answer.
Who is the greatest horsemanor horse woman in history?
I, I would probably just, from whatI've heard, would lean towards Tom

(01:18:39):
Dorrance, just from what I've heard.
But I, I never met him.
Um, I've just got a window into whohe was through other interpretations,
other individual's assessment orlike interpretation of what Tom did.
Um, so I would say itwould probably be him.
Um, but in a lot of ways for me,bill Van Norman was on another level.

(01:19:06):
Um.
As far as like, uh, he just got it.
Like he just got it and itwasn't technique driven.
It was just like horses felta certain way around him and
they operated a certain way.
And like from Bill Van Norman was special.
He passed away, uh, quite a few years ago.
And I just, uh, I often think, Iwish I could see what he was doing

(01:19:29):
with the, the knowledge that I havenow or the experience I have now.
I wish I could see it again becausethere was so much that was flying
over my head because it was so subtle.
Um, so he was prettyspecial to me, um, that way.
And, you know, that's not to take anythingaway from, from the other guys that helped
me, but, um, yeah, he was pretty special.

(01:19:53):
Actually.
Wanna ask you, I don't normallyask him these rapid fire questions,
but I wanna ask you a question.
Do you think that there are people,that horses just feel better around
a hundred percent.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Because I feel like I've observed this.
Mm-hmm.
And I'm curious that if you,if you feel that way too.

(01:20:14):
Oh yeah.
A hundred percent.
Yeah.
And like Bill was one of those,one of those people like, and, but
I mean, I think it all goes backto too, like he, he did the same
way with the people around him.
Hmm.
You know, he, he just made, he hada way to make everybody from the
ranch cook to hire guy's girlfriendcoming to visit to make 'em feel

(01:20:37):
important and special and, and 'causehe didn't need anything from him.
Like he was filling their cup andhe could do the same thing with
the horses around him for sure.
Yep.
So, I, I, yes, for sure, becausehorses have a, a crazy way to,
to know what the underlying, um.
Intention of what you're doing is, yeah.

(01:20:58):
Like they have a crazy way, and ifit's not pure, they see through it
and doesn't mean you won't get somesort of results, but, um, they, they
have a crazy way of, of being able tolike truly read you for who you are.
Yep.
Okay.
Last question.
Good.
Meres stallions or geldings?

(01:21:19):
Ooh.
I, I think it dependson, on what we're doing.
Um, Ooh.
I think it just depends, like, yeah,like seriously, like, I think it depends
on what you're, what we're doing.
Like if I was competing itwould be, uh, it'd be a stallion
or a mayor, I would say.
Just because there's, they're intact.
They're, they're exactly.

(01:21:41):
Um, you know, what God created 'emto be and they're, they're all there.
And I'm not saying geldings, my twohighest horses performers are geldings
money earning wise, but there's, there'sjust, there's a little extra in the
tank on Mares and guild stallions.
So I'd say that, uh, for ranchwork and just, just a good citizen
to be around and, and just, I'dsay a gelding for sure, but.

(01:22:05):
Yeah, so I kind of used them all.
They all have their place.
I
love it.
Nick, thank you so muchfor coming on the podcast.
My pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
Hope I didn't disappointthe people that referred me.
I don't think you did at all.
Cool.
That was awesome.
You're so dope.

(01:22:26):
You're as dope, if notmore dope than I imagined.
Thank you Yeti, for supporting uson this journey of a lifetime as we
traverse the heart of the horse world.

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