May 8, 2025 • 36 mins
Your brain is undergoing a massive renovation during menopause, and Neuroscientist Dr Jennifer Hacker Pearson is here to help you understand the how and why.
With nearly three decades studying neuroplasticity, the brain's ability to change itself, Dr Jen offers revolutionary insights into why perimenopause affects every woman differently and how you can harness this transformation.
When estrogen levels fluctuate during perimenopause, your brain essentially panics. There are estrogen receptors throughout your neural networks, and as this crucial hormone decreases, your brain must create "workarounds" by changing its structure, function, and connectivity. This rewiring explains everything from mood swings to cognitive changes, but it also presents a golden opportunity for personal growth.
"Menopause is actually a gift," Dr Jen explains, challenging society's often negative perspective. Rather than viewing it as decline, she frames it as a developmental transition, a chance to become your truest, most authentic self. The extensive neural reorganisation happening during this time creates ideal conditions for consciously shaping who you want to be in your post-menopausal years.
Dr Jen shares practical tools for directing this transformation, recommending meditation to reduce neuroinflammation (which increases as estrogen decreases) and journaling to understand how past experiences have shaped your brain. She also discusses fascinating research on how previous hormonal experiences like pregnancy might better prepare women for menopause, and explains why declining estrogen levels may contribute to women's higher risk of Alzheimer's disease.
Download Dr Jen's free 5-minute meditation designed specifically for women in perimenopause, and discover why embracing this transition rather than fighting it could be the key to thriving through midlife and beyond.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sonya (00:01):
Welcome to the Dear Menopause podcast.
I'm Sonya Lovell, your host Now.
I've been bringing youconversations with amazing
menopause experts for over twoyears now.
If you have missed any of thoseconversations, now's the time
to go back and listen, and youcan always share them with
anyone you think needs to hearthem.
This way, more people can findthese amazing conversations.
(00:25):
Welcome to this week's DearMenopause episode.
Today, I am joined by one of myfavorite type of guests, Dr
Jennifer Hacker.
Pearson is a neuroscientist,psychotherapist and women's
mental health wellbeingspecialist, so she wears lots of
hats.
Jen, welcome to Dear Menopause.
Thank you so much for having me.
(00:45):
I'm so happy to be here.
I know I'm happy to have youhere.
We have been talking abouthaving this episode recorded
since about September last year,and it's taken us until now May
to actually have thisconversation, so I'm beside
myself that we are going to diveinto some really juicy topics.
Jen, before we do that, howabout you give everyone just a
little overview of who you areand what you do?
Dr Jen (01:08):
Sure, I'm an actual mother, I have three children,
but I have a science baby calledneuroplasticity.
And neuroplasticity, as we willtalk about today, is the
ability of the brain to changeitself, and I've been studying
that for almost three decadesnow, so it's been a really long
time, and I'm fascinated abouthow the brain changes itself and
how we can influence that aswell.
(01:28):
So I did my PhD in that in wella while ago.
And then I, in my forties, Iactually did a psychotherapy
degree because I really enjoyedthe neuroscience and the kind of
the measurable things of whatwe can see in a woman's brain.
But also I was curious about thethings that we can't measure.
And I always like to say yet,because I do think that we'll
(01:51):
get there at one stage becausewe're such multifaceted beings.
We're not just, you know, stickan electrode in something,
measure something, and thereforethat's what makes you you.
So I got very curious about theholistic, the person, the woman
, the one that is going throughmenopause.
So I did a psychotherapy degreeand then, during COVID, I
trained as a meditation teacher,because I think that just the
(02:14):
three together is very good,like you've got the knowledge,
the scientific knowledge, andyou know the psychotherapy
knowledge and then the kind ofpractical application of it all
to support yourself throughmenopause.
So that's me in a nutshell.
Sonya (02:27):
So you are amazing.
Now, obviously, we're here totalk about the brain.
We're here to talk about thefemale brain in particular, and
one of the things that I knowyou are really passionate about
is the developmental transitionthat women go through as they
enter menopause, but also itspotential correlation with what
we see in the brain during othertransitional times as well.
(02:49):
So, like puberty andadolescence and pregnancy, is
that a good place for us to kindof start to talk about your
passion project there?
Sure, absolutely yeah.
Dr Jen (02:58):
So you know, we know a lot about puberty and pregnancy
and that developmentaltransition.
In puberty you go throughadolescence and then in
pregnancy you go throughmatricence Most people don't
know that word and then inmenopause we don't have a word.
But there is this hugedevelopmental transition that
any woman who's in perimenopauseor has been through menopause
(03:20):
will tell you.
Yes, it completely changed me asa person.
And so, while we have someunderstanding of what's
happening in the brain inchildren as they become adults
and a little bit more in thebrain as women become mothers,
we don't really have that muchinformation where we don't have
that much neuroscienceinformation about the menopausal
brain at all, let's be honestbut certainly not from a
developmental perspective.
(03:41):
So we can see that there aresome correlations with what we
can see, and one is inparticular I'll just dive
straight in to the default modenetwork, which is a network of
brain regions that obviouslywork together and they give us
this sense of self, our sort ofself-referential thinking and
being, and it is activated whenour mind is at rest During
(04:07):
menopause.
We can see that there is somechanges in the structure and the
function and the connectivityof that region or that network,
and I think you know, withspeculating that that is what is
sort of showing us that feelingof who am I now and also the
further on we go in themenopausal journey to go right,
(04:28):
I'm not giving any more Fs andI'm going to be this person and
you either like it or you don'tlike it, and that is kind of the
development of who you'rebecoming.
And my personal passion isguiding women and supporting
them and educating them to gofrom where they are now, which
for many women who are in theperimenopausal transition is not
a good place.
(04:49):
It's terrifying, and you thinkyou're going to be like this
forever and you don't know whothe hell you are to creating a
map, creating a plan of gettingfrom there to where they want to
go in the postmenopause,because it won't be horrible
forever.
Sonya (05:07):
Yeah, 100%.
I think that's something weneed to talk about more often,
because I didn't experienceperimenopause in the same way a
lot of people did because of myinduced menopause.
Even though I was in my 40s, Ihadn't experienced any
perimenopause symptoms.
Potentially I was going to beone of those lucky people that
just kind of sailed on through.
(05:27):
We'll never know, but I haveheard anecdotally from so many
women in their 40s that do kindof get really stuck in these
weeds of is this?
It Is this how I am now goingto feel for the rest of my life,
and that is really confrontingand it's really challenging.
And when you are on the otherside and I have these amazing
(05:49):
conversations with women likemyself that are on the other
side and you're like, no, it'sgreat, it's amazing.
Everything changes and shiftsand you do grow into this new
space.
That is so wonderful, but it'sreally hard to tell someone when
they're in the thick of it, inthe weeds, that that's where
they're heading to.
But also it's so fascinating tounderstand that it is actually
(06:11):
our brain rewiring.
I've spoken to so manypsychologists and psychiatrists
about this transition that womengo through, where it's like who
am I, who do I want to be, isthis it?
To know that it's actuallybeing driven by the brain, as
opposed to some sort ofexistential crisis, is really
(06:31):
cool.
Dr Jen (06:32):
Well, the whole menopause is driven by the brain
.
The whole cessation of menses,you know the end of our period
is all driven by the brain,because the menstrual cycle is
driven by the brain.
So the fact that we're nowseeing that there are changes
happening in the brain duringperimenopause is sensational,
because we can finally back upwhat women have known forever
(06:52):
that there's something, you knowsomething's changing and we
have been told, I guess,previously that it's just in
your head.
You know there's nothing wrongwith you.
It's like let's not even gointo the history of the hysteria
and the uterus and all thatsort of stuff, but you know that
women just can't handle it andthat we're emotional beings and
(07:13):
that there's nothing actuallyhappening and we should just
suck it up.
So it's fantastic that we canhave both.
We can have the experience andwe can kind of start seeing the
science to back it up.
Sonya (07:25):
From my perspective, the most recent person that gets
talked a lot about from thisresearch and this breaking
through into understanding thechanges in the brain through
perimenopause and menopause isDr Lisa Moscone.
Was there research and studiesbeing done prior or is it just
that she has broken through inthis space?
Dr Jen (07:44):
She's broken through in a certain aspect.
There has been some peoplelooking at it, but it is all
very new.
It's all really really very new.
I think that one of her studieswas one of the breakthrough
ones, where she found theamyloid plaques.
That was because she'soriginally an Alzheimer's
researcher.
I guess lots of science happensby accident, and I guess this
(08:06):
was a little bit by accident aswell.
So no, it's all very new.
We didn't even really startlooking at women's brains until
the 1990s.
It's just madness.
Sonya (08:19):
We get so frustrated when we look at inequality in
healthcare and so many aspectsof women's health.
We get so frustrated thatthere's still this huge gap.
But then if you kind of take abeat and step back and you do
reflect on the fact that we'veonly been doing the studies on
women specifically in allaspects of their health and
(08:39):
physiology, since the 1990sthat's not that long ago.
Dr Jen (08:43):
No, I know and look, I'd like to give the world the
benefit of the doubt that wejust didn't know better and so
it was just assumed that wecould pretend that women are
small men and we just give thema smaller dose, or whatever.
It's probably the easier thingto say right now.
But we know it's not true.
Women are very complicated andvery different, and we're driven
(09:05):
by hormones, as we know, and sothere's studies we just can't
do on men.
Sonya (09:11):
And it's a shame it took them that long to work it out.
There's a lot of ground to makeup, a lot of ground to make up.
Yes, 100%, all right, so let'sgo back a little bit to what
changes do we actually startseeing in our brain during
perimenopause, so duringperimenopause what happens?
Dr Jen (09:30):
so, as I was saying, the brain initiates menopause and
also the brain is what drivesthe menstrual cycle.
So there's a signal that goesfrom the brain to the ovaries
and it basically says get an eggready for ovulation, and then
it sends another, so it's sortof like feedback mechanism.
Then it sends another signaldown and one of them releases
(09:51):
estrogen and the other onereleases progesterone and then
you release an egg and duringperimenopause, when the eggs
aren't there aren't as many eggsand they're not as good quality
the brain really has tostruggle to get that message
down there, to get the eggrelease, and then the estrogen
isn't quite as high, or it'sreally really high because it's
(10:13):
pumping out so many otherhormones to try and get this
message across that it gets sentback into the brain and there's
a bit of chaos.
The brain is kind of like goingwhat is going on?
The brain's number one aim isto create homeostasis, which is
internal balance, and so whenthere's these fluctuations of
things and it doesn't just needto be hormones, but in this
(10:34):
regard it's hormones it freaksout a little bit because it
doesn't like it.
So it needs to figure out whatto do so, as there is less
estrogen or fluctuations ofestrogen, the brain starts to
change itself in structure andfunction, which is the
neuroplasticity that I wastalking about, and connectivity
to try and figure out.
I call it a workaround of how tofunction with now less estrogen
(11:01):
, to start with, because thereare estrogen receptors all
through the brain and what thattells us is where there's an
estrogen receptor, there'sestrogen required.
So suddenly we don't have theestrogen and the brain is going.
What do I do?
My estrogen isn't there, whatcan I do?
And so, therefore, I need tochange myself in structure and
function and connectivity to beable to do the things that I
(11:24):
need to do to keep you aliveRight, so cool.
And to retain the homeostasis,to to keep it working, to keep
it balanced.
Yeah, so, so we've seen um thatthat they're the main things
that we see, that there's like a, you know, change in gray meta
volume and changing glucosemetabolism, but it's basically
just the brain going.
Help, what do I do without thisestradiol?
Sonya (11:49):
yeah, wow, I guess there's two scenarios here that
kind of play out in my head.
The first one is the woman isin perimenopause, she's having
all of these fluctuations.
She goes and gets some hormonetherapy, so the estrogen, the
progesterone and sometimes thetestosterone are kind of topped
up and I would imagine that kindof evens everything out and the
brain kind of goes okay, cool,thanks, guys.
(12:11):
Back on board.
And if you don't, thenobviously the brain stays in
this state of flux.
So let's talk about not takingHRT to start with.
So the body just naturally goesthrough these hormone
fluctuations.
The brain starts adapting andchanging so to adapt to the new
hormone levels that it's dealingwith.
(12:31):
Then what happens once there isthat consistent drop, so actual
menopause comes that one day inthe calendar, and then what
does things look like after that?
Dr Jen (12:43):
So we see symptoms sometimes go into four to six
years after post-menopause andwomen sort of feeling well, you
know, I've had my last period,why do I still feel like this?
But it can take time.
Sonya (12:55):
I think there's sometimes an expectation that you get
that one day in the calendar.
Okay, I'm now post-menopausal.
Everything should settle down,and we know that it doesn't.
And that is the first time I'veheard it explained that way as
to why it can take that four tosix years, even
post-menopausally, to allow allthose symptoms to settle back
(13:15):
down naturally, yeah, just thebrain needs to get used to it.
Dr Jen (13:17):
When you think about for most women for me it certainly
will be around about 35 oddyears of a very predictable
hormonal cycle every month,unless you get pregnant, of
course, we will have a break tosuddenly not have this and, like
I said, there are estrogenreceptors everywhere in the
brain.
It's not just like there's alittle bit going on.
(13:38):
We all go, oh, we'll make dowith that.
And through the body as well,that the brain needs to figure
out okay, what can we do?
And the estradiol, the one thatwe have during our fertile
years, is the most potentestrogen there is, so it needs
to figure out how to start usingestrone, which is the most
abundant one we have inmenopause.
So there's just a lot of changethat is happening.
And I mean, if you've ever seenany footage of a brain, it's
(14:01):
such a complicated network ofneurons and connections and
pathways and you name it, thatit just it takes time.
Sonya (14:10):
Yeah, wow, it's so cool and I'm really feeling like we
don't talk about this enough.
Obviously, it is newinformation that's coming out,
new research.
There's still studies that needto happen to prove a lot of
what I would imagine some mayconsider to still be anecdotal.
But I feel like there's notenough emphasis in the public
(14:30):
narrative or the education andawareness that runs publicly for
women around perimenopause andmenopause to understand that
it's not, because I suppose youget the changes to your period
so you think that that's thatovarian kind of function and you
get maybe aches and pains.
So you think there's themuscular stuff.
We talk a lot about bonedensity, so there's the bones.
(14:53):
We talk about heart health, butI don't think we're talking
enough about the impacts on thebrain 100% yeah.
Dr Jen (15:00):
And talking about society and the perception of
menopause in society and, as wewere saying before, women, just
that's when they go crazy andit's like, well, the brain goes
crazy, it's, and it's literallycrazy, it doesn't know what to
do.
And so I think bringing it backto the actual and, I think,
tangible things, people like tosee things is very important,
(15:22):
because it is driven by thebrain.
Sonya (15:24):
Okay, I have much more respect for my brain now, but
also it goes so far to explainwhy there are so many good days,
bad days, ups, downs, thiswhole period caused by the brain
trying to work out what thehell it's supposed to do now
that you're no longer producingthis dominant fuel.
Dr Jen (15:44):
And it's also that the estrogen is the beginning of a
catalyst of reactions, you know,so that the estrogen binds to
the estrogen receptor here,which sends signals to all these
other places to do all thesethings.
So it's not just a matter of inthat brain region, it won't
work.
It's like it's allinterconnected, like really like
a, like a web of, of, like anelectrician's wiring where
(16:06):
things are connected, and ifthat doesn't work, then this
won't work and that won't work,and so it's all very, very
connected, and I think that'sthe important part to remember.
Sonya (16:14):
Okay, Now I'm going to ask you a question that is
completely left afield, but itjust popped into my brain while
we were talking, so let's seewhere this takes us.
There is some talk and, Ibelieve, some research being
done out of the Buck Institutein California about postponing
menopause.
So it's like do we actuallyeven need menopause?
(16:38):
Do we need to experienceperimenopause and menopause and
the 10 or so years of upheavaland chaos that can be created?
And you may not have thoughtabout this, but if you have,
where do you sit in thatprospect for the future?
It's a big question.
Dr Jen (16:53):
Look, I think you know we're always making advances in
medicine and I think that'sgreat for certain people to look
at this sort of opportunity.
I guess it's the same as withIVF or freezing your eggs for
some people it works.
Personally, for me, from whatI've learned and from my
research, for me, from what I'velearned and from my research, I
(17:14):
wouldn't want to do that,because I think that menopause
is actually a gift, and it isthis neural rewiring is where it
starts to lead to adevelopmental change that
actually offers us anopportunity to become the person
that we really want to become,and obviously this is very kind
of spiritual and notneuroscientific at all.
But if you speak to women whohave gone through the menopausal
(17:35):
transition, the majority willtell you life on the other side
is so much better.
So you know, there are all lotsof theories about why do we
even go through menopause andsurvive?
Because most species die afterthey stop reproducing.
And then there's a theory that,well, actually we should be
dying, but medicine's keeping usalive.
(17:57):
Then there's the theory, thegrandmother hypothesis, which is
basically we just stay on earthto help our children look after
their children.
But I actually have acompletely different theory, and
I think that it is aninvitation to become your truest
, most authentic self andactually love life, enjoy life.
You've done the children.
If you had children, you'vedone the career, you've done the
thing and actually just go.
(18:17):
Who do I want to be?
And live as that person?
That's what I think.
So why would you want to denyyourself that?
Sonya (18:25):
Yeah, I love that.
One of the thoughts that cameinto my mind when you were
talking from a spiritualperspective.
It's almost like a levelling upenlightenment, isn't it, if you
kind of lean into some of theBuddhist theories.
It's really interesting becausewhen I first heard about the
Buck Institute and that researchand I was like, oh, that's
really cool, that would be greatto not have to go through all
this upheaval.
But now for me, eight yearspost-menopause, I agree with you
(18:49):
, I have very much stepped intothe power of somebody very
different to who I was in mypre-menopausal years.
And look, I also had a breastcancer diagnosis.
That changes thingssignificantly.
But I do have so manyconversations with women that
are post-menopausal and havebeen for some time, that are
absolutely living their bestlives and do really appreciate
(19:10):
the gift that can come withmenopause.
Dr Jen (19:12):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think you know.
Then you need to start thinkingabout do we stop puberty?
Do we get people to just gofrom child to do we just bombard
them with hormones to skippuberty?
But think of all the brainchanges that you're skipping.
Or pregnancy, you know it's.
You have to go through theneural remodeling that is
happening, through these threebig developmental transitions,
(19:35):
to get to the other side, and Ijust don't think that you can
skip it and I think it's just nooffense to the institute, but I
think it's just a sign of thetimes where it's like too hard,
let's just skip it, exactly,yeah.
Sonya (19:47):
And it's almost like gamifying life, isn't it?
It's a little bit like if wewere sitting here playing a game
, that you could have thisoption of take the red pill,
take the blue pill.
Do you want to have menopause,do you not?
Do you want to have adolescence, do you not?
Dr Jen (19:59):
I mean, we know from enough research that it is
through the adversity that thegrowth happens as a person,
aside from the brain.
So I think, just personally, Iwouldn't want to skip it.
I wouldn't want to skip any ofthe hard stuff, because it's
made me the person I am todayand I just can't wait to see who
I become.
Sonya (20:16):
Yeah, I love that so much .
I completely agree with you.
Thank you for that littlesidetrack with me.
So if we go back to what youwere talking about, which was
the upheaval to the brain, andit's driven from hormonal
changes, so if someone is nottaking hormone therapy therefore
(20:36):
they're not getting that kindof external top-up of the
hormones what else can be doneto help manage and kind of help
you navigate and negotiate thatperiod of upheaval, to help the
brain?
Dr Jen (20:50):
So I think it's like menopause, a very individualized
thing, so I can't say everyoneshould do this and it will work
for everyone.
But I think one of the mostimportant aspects is like
appreciating I know it soundsterrible because some people do
really struggle but appreciatingthat you can experience
(21:10):
menopause, that you're oldenough, that you have lived long
enough to be able to experiencethis and, taking a little bit
of a perspective change on it,that, rather than some sort of
failure of your brain or failureof your body or that you're now
going into the abyss of ageing,it's actually a transformation
(21:31):
and like we were talking aboutit being a renovation project
for the brain, so that there'sactually this beautiful
invitation to be able to changeyourself and to thrive into your
older age.
I think that is the first thing, because we do really have a
very negative connotation withmenopause in our western society
very and aging like we're aging.
(21:53):
We're such an anti-aging societyexactly, and I think that that
the fertility thing not that themajority of women won't want to
have children towards the endof their fertile years anyway,
but there's something about usnot being fertile anymore that
society has deemed less thanpointless, undesirable,
unattractive.
(22:13):
I don't know what it is.
It's silly.
I think about what it means toyou and not what it means to
other people, and not what itmeans to society, and being
grateful that you're still alive, because I know people and I'm
sure you do too who never got tothis point.
So a little bit of a Pollyannaapproach, I suppose the other
thing is definitely get to knowyour brain, get to know yourself
, get to know what is going oninside, so that you can
(22:36):
understand like we were justsaying that there is these
changes happening and some ofthem are profound, like they're
really really big changes thatare happening, so that when you
feel anxious or when you feel alittle bit depressed, or when
you feel you don't have enoughenergy, you can kind of
understand why.
Sonya (22:53):
Yeah, so it's like showing yourself a little bit of
grace during those periodsbecause you understand this
renovation project is going on.
Dr Jen (23:01):
And then learning learning about how you can use
this changing brain, how you canactually help direct your
changing brain to become theperson that you want to be, so
that you can use this changingbrain, how you can actually help
direct your changing brain tobecome the person that you want
to be, so that you can look atthe changes and the big upheaval
and everything as anopportunity to go right.
Okay, it's like I've got thismess in front of me.
Let me tidy it up and in theprocess, I want to become this
(23:24):
person or live this life, or beable to do these things, you
know, to basically direct yourpostmenopausal years the way you
want them.
Sonya (23:33):
Take that a little bit further for me what tools do you
recommend that women use toactually make the most of this
window?
I think you call it the goldenwindow of opportunity, which I
love so much.
What tools do you actuallyother than obviously that
education, awareness, ability toshow yourself grace because
your body is changing?
What other tools do you have ordo you recommend that women
(23:57):
kind of lean into?
Dr Jen (23:58):
I think it's really, really important to learn about
yourself.
So you need to have a littlebit of a dig in your family
history in yourself and behonest with yourself about your
DNA, your psychosocial history,your neuropsychological history,
your values and your beliefs,and also think about things that
have happened in your life thathave shaped your brain to this
(24:22):
point in time.
So that is not really a tool,it's more like a challenge, I
suppose, to just dig a littlebit, because when we look at
helping to direct the brain, sothe brain is in this very
plastic state when it's inperimenopause, which means it's
changing a lot, which means itis also easy for us to help
change it.
So it's like that's the windowof opportunity so we're able to
(24:45):
play a role in this.
And when you want to do that,one of the main things that you
want to create is consciousawareness, so that when
something happens, your reactionto that is your choice and it's
not just a reaction that comesfrom your DNA, your psychosocial
history, all those things.
(25:07):
So to create more space, thefirst thing I recommend for
women and this is, I think,useful in menopause anyway, even
if you don't want to delve intoyourself is meditation, because
meditation decreases stress andcortisol, it increases
perception of life and it justit's so good.
And it decreasesneuroinflammation as well, which
(25:29):
is one of the things thathappens when estrogen decreases.
So estrogen decreases,neuroinflammation goes up and
suddenly we start seeing allthese problems in the brain.
So meditation is one of thefirst things I recommend to
women Also, just to getcomfortable with sitting and
just seeing what thoughts comeup.
It's so simple.
Sonya (25:50):
It is, isn't it?
And meditation is one of thosethings that some people find
really easy and some people findreally hard.
So if somebody is perhapschallenged by the thought of
learning how to meditate andspending time meditating, what
advice do you have to them?
Dr Jen (26:06):
there, okay.
So meditation is not aboutswitching off your mind.
It's not about anything otherthan just sitting and noticing
hearing raindrops on a window orlistening to your breath.
It doesn't have to be, and ifyour mind wanders, you bring it
back.
So it's not so much aboutclearing your mind.
I think meditation again has hadthis terrible connotation put
on it that you have to be inlotus position and you've got to
(26:27):
free your mind and you need tobe clear and not have any bad
thoughts or whatever it is thatpeople think.
And it's not that at all.
It's just about beingconsciously aware.
And so I actually created afive-minute meditation that
every listener is welcome todownload, thank you.
I created it for myself becauseeveryone is busy and I get that
(26:50):
, and it doesn't need to be a45-minute process where you sit
cross-legged on the floor withyour bums hurting and your knees
hurting and you're like when isthis over?
It's meant to be a littlenurturing gift to your brain.
So I made this five-minute onefor myself because I was like I
don't have time, I don't evenhave 20 minutes in the morning
before the kids get up.
I'm happy to share it.
They're welcome to download it.
(27:11):
We can put the link in the shownotes if you'd like.
Sonya (27:13):
Yeah, absolutely 100%.
Thank you, and I love that it'sjust five minutes and, like you
said, it can be really hard tofind 20 minutes or 30 minutes in
your day when we're all focusedon how much protein we're
eating and how much exercisewe're getting and running around
looking after children andparents and blah, blah blah.
So I love that five minutes.
(27:34):
And is there a next step onfrom that where you talked about
getting to know yourself?
Getting to know, obviously, thethoughts that you're having
that crop up during meditation,but also understanding what it
is that you want to be in thefuture?
Is there a journaling side tothat as well that you would
recommend is useful to actuallyreally kind of unpack?
I know that's something thathelps me a lot.
Dr Jen (27:55):
Yeah, definitely, you can start journaling with it.
I'm actually just writing aboutit in my new book.
So my new book is basically allabout that journey from where
you are into the post-menopauseand navigating the rough seas of
menopause, because it is prettyrough for a lot of people.
I think journaling is a reallygood place to start and I think,
rather than putting so muchpressure on ourselves, going
(28:18):
right, I'm going to sit down andI'm going to delve into myself.
Just start maybe a note sectionin your phone, because a lot of
stuff comes to me when I'm inthe shower or places where I
have nothing, and then put abullet point and then you're
walking the dog and somethingelse and you go bullet point and
things might come up.
Oh, there was that time when Iwas eight when my uncle was
(28:39):
meant to pick me up and hedidn't come and I felt do you
know what stuff will come up?
And I think just to have theopenness and the curiosity for
it to come up and to write itdown, because all of that has
shaped your brain.
Sonya (28:50):
Every single action, experience, thought, feeling
that you have had has shapedyour brain, which is why
perimenopause will be differentfor every woman because all our
brains are different at thatpoint in time when perimenopause
begins, and throughout yeah,that's a really good reminder,
because we do talk about howeverybody's perimenopause
(29:11):
experience is going to bedifferent, but I don't think
we've talked enough about whythat actually is, because I
think at our basic level we gowell, we're all humans, we're
all women, and we forget thatit's actually the stuff we don't
see that is playing a big partin that.
Dr Jen (29:28):
Yeah, and from my perspective, what I teach is
very much about recognising whatshapes your brain.
Obviously, when you're inperimenopause, whether you have
young children or ageing parentsor a job that you like, there's
a lot of other factors as well,but when it comes to the brain,
it is about those things thatmake you you.
Sonya (29:46):
They make you you, and there is a lot of research
coming out now too, on the factthat and this will tie into what
you've just said that womenwho've experienced trauma
particularly earlier in theirlives, women that were
susceptible to PMDD, postnataldepression, things like that
will likely go on to have arougher time in perimenopause.
Dr Jen (30:07):
Yeah, yeah, that's right .
I certainly know from apostnatal depression perspective
, women who have experiencedpostnatal depression will have a
high chance of experiencingmenopausal depression again
during perimenopause.
We also have found in researchthat women who have never had a
child tend to have more severeperimenopause symptoms.
(30:29):
And I find that reallyinteresting because when I think
about how the brain rewires andreshapes itself during those
three key phases, if you missthat one, if you've had one
child, I would be curious toknow for someone who's had seven
children is it easier for themduring perimenopause?
(30:49):
I don't know, there's noresearch that I know of, but I
do know that women who havenever had a child, who have
never had that experience inthat developmental transition
presence where the brain changesitself radically radically
because you've got your ninemonths, you're growing a baby
and then suddenly you deliverthe baby and your estrogen just
plummets.
(31:09):
So it's radical and they'venever had that and then they
struggle more duringperimenopause.
I'm very, very curious aboutthat.
Sonya (31:18):
That's really interesting when you lay it out.
Through those three differenttransformational phases that we
go through, it does make sensethat if you missed one of those,
for whatever reason, that youare going to experience
something different through thefollowing transition.
Dr Jen (31:33):
Yeah, because it's all to do with change, like I was
saying to you, the things thatmake you you and how your brain
has changed to the point of whenyou come into perimenopause.
And even if you've never hadthat radical shift in hormones
where the brain is just like, ohmy God, we're going to do
something very quickly, does itaffect your perimenopausal
changes?
Sonya (31:52):
Yeah, there's so much research.
If we could fund research foreverything that I decide should
be studied, we'd have somefascinating information by the
end of it all, wouldn't we?
Dr Jen (32:02):
Yeah, another thing I'm really fascinated about, and I
talk about a lot, is the overlapof postpartum and perimenopause
, so when you have huge brainchanges in postpartum and coming
into motherhood but you're likein your early, mid, late
forties, really interesting.
I am one of those women that,well, I have my kids in my
thirties, my early thirties, butI have friends that have had
(32:24):
kids into their 40s and thenthey are literally just bouncing
straight from post-pregnancyand postpartum into
perimenopause and there's nokind of gap between it, and I
can't wait for the research tocome out on it, because what the
brain is doing, it's adaptingitself to become a mother, to
get attuned to the baby's cry,to become selfless because
(32:47):
you're trying to keep this babyalive, but at the same time,
it's going through theperimenopausal transition, where
you're becoming a little bitmore selfish.
Well, exactly, so what ishappening?
And is the chaos more extreme?
And no wonder women feel soconfused.
Sonya (33:04):
Oh, my goodness, there's so much to unpack in this topic,
isn't there?
This is fascinating, absolutelyfascinating.
I want to finish up by takingyou back to something we talked
about right at the verybeginning of our conversation.
That is something that comes upa lot, and it is related to the
work that Dr Lisa Moscone isdoing, obviously as well, and
that is the links to Alzheimer'sand the menopausal change.
Dr Jen (33:31):
So can you talk us through what you know about that
?
So with the decline in estrogenor with the fluctuation in
estrogen, people who have a riskof Alzheimer's disease they've
got this APO gene, aleph-4, willhave a greater amyloid deposits
due to the estrogen.
So the estrogen removes them.
The estrogen removes it as partof its function, of what it
(33:52):
needs to do.
So as the estrogen goes down,the deposits stay up, and so
women are at risk of Alzheimer'sdisease post-menopause because
of that.
Sonya (34:03):
Okay, so you mentioned that that was like a plaque
earlier.
Is that right?
So the estrogen kind of waslike a plaque earlier, is that
right?
Dr Jen (34:11):
So the estrogen kind of acts like a flossing agent.
It's not just that one, there'salso tau and all sorts of other
things.
That estrogen cleans the brain.
I guess it's like a flossingagent, a toothbrush, whatever
you want to call it.
It helps clean the brain and itlowers the neuroinflammation
and everything.
Neuroinflammation is anothermarker as well.
Yeah, so that would go on toexplain why we see women being
twice as likely to be diagnosedwith alzheimer's as men, into
(34:35):
old age that's what this, that'swhat the research is suggest
suggesting, and because we doknow that women are twice as
likely as men, we almost have tolook at menopause because men
don't go through it.
So, yeah, it's reallyfascinating and I'm really
looking forward to more researchin that space.
Sonya (34:49):
That was something I wanted to make sure that we
talked about, because it issomething that is spoken about a
lot more.
I'm hoping that a part of thatresearch that's being done is
the benefits of taking hormonetherapy.
So if you do keep thoseestrogen levels even a little
bit higher post-menopausal, thatcreates some protective factors
for the brain yeah, lisamusconi is doing research into
(35:10):
that and it looks like that.
Dr Jen (35:12):
Estrogen supplementation certainly, but you probably
probably progesterone as well,because it's also very, very
important for the brainprogesterone that it supports
women who are more at risk ofal's disease.
Sonya (35:25):
One of the downsides of research and studies is it takes
a long time for us to get tothe point where the evidence is
presented and released and thenany changes are made as a result
of that.
But it's exciting that thatresearch is being done.
Dr Jen (35:40):
Yeah, unfortunately getting the research done is one
of the harder parts as well,because there's a big fight
always for money, for funding,and so even just getting it done
is difficult and then, like yousaid, by the time it gets done
and then it gets published andit gets released, it takes a
long time.
So I'm quite happy to go withanecdotal research sometimes at
(36:01):
this stage.
If it supports women, thengreat.
Sonya (36:04):
I think that's an amazing note to finish up on.
Jen.
Was there anything else thatyou wanted to share before we
finish up?
Dr Jen (36:10):
Yeah, well, look, I just think that it's so important
for women to think of menopauseas a developmental transition.
It's not a failing, it's not anending.
It is a beautiful beginning foryou.
And please start meditating.
Even if you don't download mymeditation, go to on YouTube.
You can get lots of free things.
Sonya (36:30):
Start meditating, start, you know, training your brain
and and exercising your brain tothrive through perimenopause
and into your older, older lifeAmazing, and I'm excited for
your next book, which I know youare working hard on at the
moment.
Jen, thank you so much for yourtime today.
Dr Jen (36:46):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's been wonderful.
Welcome to the Dear Menopause podcast.
I'm Sonya Lovell, your host Now.
I've been bringing youconversations with amazing
menopause experts for over twoyears now.
If you have missed any of thoseconversations, now's the time
to go back and listen, and youcan always share them with
anyone you think needs to hearthem.
This way, more people can findthese amazing conversations.
(00:25):
Welcome to this week's DearMenopause episode.
Today, I am joined by one of myfavorite type of guests, Dr
Jennifer Hacker.
Pearson is a neuroscientist,psychotherapist and women's
mental health wellbeingspecialist, so she wears lots of
hats.
Jen, welcome to Dear Menopause.
Thank you so much for having me.
(00:45):
I'm so happy to be here.
I know I'm happy to have youhere.
We have been talking abouthaving this episode recorded
since about September last year,and it's taken us until now May
to actually have thisconversation, so I'm beside
myself that we are going to diveinto some really juicy topics.
Jen, before we do that, howabout you give everyone just a
little overview of who you areand what you do?
Dr Jen (01:08):
Sure, I'm an actual mother, I have three children,
but I have a science baby calledneuroplasticity.
And neuroplasticity, as we willtalk about today, is the
ability of the brain to changeitself, and I've been studying
that for almost three decadesnow, so it's been a really long
time, and I'm fascinated abouthow the brain changes itself and
how we can influence that aswell.
(01:28):
So I did my PhD in that in wella while ago.
And then I, in my forties, Iactually did a psychotherapy
degree because I really enjoyedthe neuroscience and the kind of
the measurable things of whatwe can see in a woman's brain.
But also I was curious about thethings that we can't measure.
And I always like to say yet,because I do think that we'll
(01:51):
get there at one stage becausewe're such multifaceted beings.
We're not just, you know, stickan electrode in something,
measure something, and thereforethat's what makes you you.
So I got very curious about theholistic, the person, the woman
, the one that is going throughmenopause.
So I did a psychotherapy degreeand then, during COVID, I
trained as a meditation teacher,because I think that just the
(02:14):
three together is very good,like you've got the knowledge,
the scientific knowledge, andyou know the psychotherapy
knowledge and then the kind ofpractical application of it all
to support yourself throughmenopause.
So that's me in a nutshell.
Sonya (02:27):
So you are amazing.
Now, obviously, we're here totalk about the brain.
We're here to talk about thefemale brain in particular, and
one of the things that I knowyou are really passionate about
is the developmental transitionthat women go through as they
enter menopause, but also itspotential correlation with what
we see in the brain during othertransitional times as well.
(02:49):
So, like puberty andadolescence and pregnancy, is
that a good place for us to kindof start to talk about your
passion project there?
Sure, absolutely yeah.
Dr Jen (02:58):
So you know, we know a lot about puberty and pregnancy
and that developmentaltransition.
In puberty you go throughadolescence and then in
pregnancy you go throughmatricence Most people don't
know that word and then inmenopause we don't have a word.
But there is this hugedevelopmental transition that
any woman who's in perimenopauseor has been through menopause
(03:20):
will tell you.
Yes, it completely changed me asa person.
And so, while we have someunderstanding of what's
happening in the brain inchildren as they become adults
and a little bit more in thebrain as women become mothers,
we don't really have that muchinformation where we don't have
that much neuroscienceinformation about the menopausal
brain at all, let's be honestbut certainly not from a
developmental perspective.
(03:41):
So we can see that there aresome correlations with what we
can see, and one is inparticular I'll just dive
straight in to the default modenetwork, which is a network of
brain regions that obviouslywork together and they give us
this sense of self, our sort ofself-referential thinking and
being, and it is activated whenour mind is at rest During
(04:07):
menopause.
We can see that there is somechanges in the structure and the
function and the connectivityof that region or that network,
and I think you know, withspeculating that that is what is
sort of showing us that feelingof who am I now and also the
further on we go in themenopausal journey to go right,
(04:28):
I'm not giving any more Fs andI'm going to be this person and
you either like it or you don'tlike it, and that is kind of the
development of who you'rebecoming.
And my personal passion isguiding women and supporting
them and educating them to gofrom where they are now, which
for many women who are in theperimenopausal transition is not
a good place.
(04:49):
It's terrifying, and you thinkyou're going to be like this
forever and you don't know whothe hell you are to creating a
map, creating a plan of gettingfrom there to where they want to
go in the postmenopause,because it won't be horrible
forever.
Sonya (05:07):
Yeah, 100%.
I think that's something weneed to talk about more often,
because I didn't experienceperimenopause in the same way a
lot of people did because of myinduced menopause.
Even though I was in my 40s, Ihadn't experienced any
perimenopause symptoms.
Potentially I was going to beone of those lucky people that
just kind of sailed on through.
(05:27):
We'll never know, but I haveheard anecdotally from so many
women in their 40s that do kindof get really stuck in these
weeds of is this?
It Is this how I am now goingto feel for the rest of my life,
and that is really confrontingand it's really challenging.
And when you are on the otherside and I have these amazing
(05:49):
conversations with women likemyself that are on the other
side and you're like, no, it'sgreat, it's amazing.
Everything changes and shiftsand you do grow into this new
space.
That is so wonderful, but it'sreally hard to tell someone when
they're in the thick of it, inthe weeds, that that's where
they're heading to.
But also it's so fascinating tounderstand that it is actually
(06:11):
our brain rewiring.
I've spoken to so manypsychologists and psychiatrists
about this transition that womengo through, where it's like who
am I, who do I want to be, isthis it?
To know that it's actuallybeing driven by the brain, as
opposed to some sort ofexistential crisis, is really
(06:31):
cool.
Dr Jen (06:32):
Well, the whole menopause is driven by the brain
.
The whole cessation of menses,you know the end of our period
is all driven by the brain,because the menstrual cycle is
driven by the brain.
So the fact that we're nowseeing that there are changes
happening in the brain duringperimenopause is sensational,
because we can finally back upwhat women have known forever
(06:52):
that there's something, you knowsomething's changing and we
have been told, I guess,previously that it's just in
your head.
You know there's nothing wrongwith you.
It's like let's not even gointo the history of the hysteria
and the uterus and all thatsort of stuff, but you know that
women just can't handle it andthat we're emotional beings and
(07:13):
that there's nothing actuallyhappening and we should just
suck it up.
So it's fantastic that we canhave both.
We can have the experience andwe can kind of start seeing the
science to back it up.
Sonya (07:25):
From my perspective, the most recent person that gets
talked a lot about from thisresearch and this breaking
through into understanding thechanges in the brain through
perimenopause and menopause isDr Lisa Moscone.
Was there research and studiesbeing done prior or is it just
that she has broken through inthis space?
Dr Jen (07:44):
She's broken through in a certain aspect.
There has been some peoplelooking at it, but it is all
very new.
It's all really really very new.
I think that one of her studieswas one of the breakthrough
ones, where she found theamyloid plaques.
That was because she'soriginally an Alzheimer's
researcher.
I guess lots of science happensby accident, and I guess this
(08:06):
was a little bit by accident aswell.
So no, it's all very new.
We didn't even really startlooking at women's brains until
the 1990s.
It's just madness.
Sonya (08:19):
We get so frustrated when we look at inequality in
healthcare and so many aspectsof women's health.
We get so frustrated thatthere's still this huge gap.
But then if you kind of take abeat and step back and you do
reflect on the fact that we'veonly been doing the studies on
women specifically in allaspects of their health and
(08:39):
physiology, since the 1990sthat's not that long ago.
Dr Jen (08:43):
No, I know and look, I'd like to give the world the
benefit of the doubt that wejust didn't know better and so
it was just assumed that wecould pretend that women are
small men and we just give thema smaller dose, or whatever.
It's probably the easier thingto say right now.
But we know it's not true.
Women are very complicated andvery different, and we're driven
(09:05):
by hormones, as we know, and sothere's studies we just can't
do on men.
Sonya (09:11):
And it's a shame it took them that long to work it out.
There's a lot of ground to makeup, a lot of ground to make up.
Yes, 100%, all right, so let'sgo back a little bit to what
changes do we actually startseeing in our brain during
perimenopause, so duringperimenopause what happens?
Dr Jen (09:30):
so, as I was saying, the brain initiates menopause and
also the brain is what drivesthe menstrual cycle.
So there's a signal that goesfrom the brain to the ovaries
and it basically says get an eggready for ovulation, and then
it sends another, so it's sortof like feedback mechanism.
Then it sends another signaldown and one of them releases
(09:51):
estrogen and the other onereleases progesterone and then
you release an egg and duringperimenopause, when the eggs
aren't there aren't as many eggsand they're not as good quality
the brain really has tostruggle to get that message
down there, to get the eggrelease, and then the estrogen
isn't quite as high, or it'sreally really high because it's
(10:13):
pumping out so many otherhormones to try and get this
message across that it gets sentback into the brain and there's
a bit of chaos.
The brain is kind of like goingwhat is going on?
The brain's number one aim isto create homeostasis, which is
internal balance, and so whenthere's these fluctuations of
things and it doesn't just needto be hormones, but in this
(10:34):
regard it's hormones it freaksout a little bit because it
doesn't like it.
So it needs to figure out whatto do so, as there is less
estrogen or fluctuations ofestrogen, the brain starts to
change itself in structure andfunction, which is the
neuroplasticity that I wastalking about, and connectivity
to try and figure out.
I call it a workaround of how tofunction with now less estrogen
(11:01):
, to start with, because thereare estrogen receptors all
through the brain and what thattells us is where there's an
estrogen receptor, there'sestrogen required.
So suddenly we don't have theestrogen and the brain is going.
What do I do?
My estrogen isn't there, whatcan I do?
And so, therefore, I need tochange myself in structure and
function and connectivity to beable to do the things that I
(11:24):
need to do to keep you aliveRight, so cool.
And to retain the homeostasis,to to keep it working, to keep
it balanced.
Yeah, so, so we've seen um thatthat they're the main things
that we see, that there's like a, you know, change in gray meta
volume and changing glucosemetabolism, but it's basically
just the brain going.
Help, what do I do without thisestradiol?
Sonya (11:49):
yeah, wow, I guess there's two scenarios here that
kind of play out in my head.
The first one is the woman isin perimenopause, she's having
all of these fluctuations.
She goes and gets some hormonetherapy, so the estrogen, the
progesterone and sometimes thetestosterone are kind of topped
up and I would imagine that kindof evens everything out and the
brain kind of goes okay, cool,thanks, guys.
(12:11):
Back on board.
And if you don't, thenobviously the brain stays in
this state of flux.
So let's talk about not takingHRT to start with.
So the body just naturally goesthrough these hormone
fluctuations.
The brain starts adapting andchanging so to adapt to the new
hormone levels that it's dealingwith.
(12:31):
Then what happens once there isthat consistent drop, so actual
menopause comes that one day inthe calendar, and then what
does things look like after that?
Dr Jen (12:43):
So we see symptoms sometimes go into four to six
years after post-menopause andwomen sort of feeling well, you
know, I've had my last period,why do I still feel like this?
But it can take time.
Sonya (12:55):
I think there's sometimes an expectation that you get
that one day in the calendar.
Okay, I'm now post-menopausal.
Everything should settle down,and we know that it doesn't.
And that is the first time I'veheard it explained that way as
to why it can take that four tosix years, even
post-menopausally, to allow allthose symptoms to settle back
(13:15):
down naturally, yeah, just thebrain needs to get used to it.
Dr Jen (13:17):
When you think about for most women for me it certainly
will be around about 35 oddyears of a very predictable
hormonal cycle every month,unless you get pregnant, of
course, we will have a break tosuddenly not have this and, like
I said, there are estrogenreceptors everywhere in the
brain.
It's not just like there's alittle bit going on.
(13:38):
We all go, oh, we'll make dowith that.
And through the body as well,that the brain needs to figure
out okay, what can we do?
And the estradiol, the one thatwe have during our fertile
years, is the most potentestrogen there is, so it needs
to figure out how to start usingestrone, which is the most
abundant one we have inmenopause.
So there's just a lot of changethat is happening.
And I mean, if you've ever seenany footage of a brain, it's
(14:01):
such a complicated network ofneurons and connections and
pathways and you name it, thatit just it takes time.
Sonya (14:10):
Yeah, wow, it's so cool and I'm really feeling like we
don't talk about this enough.
Obviously, it is newinformation that's coming out,
new research.
There's still studies that needto happen to prove a lot of
what I would imagine some mayconsider to still be anecdotal.
But I feel like there's notenough emphasis in the public
(14:30):
narrative or the education andawareness that runs publicly for
women around perimenopause andmenopause to understand that
it's not, because I suppose youget the changes to your period
so you think that that's thatovarian kind of function and you
get maybe aches and pains.
So you think there's themuscular stuff.
We talk a lot about bonedensity, so there's the bones.
(14:53):
We talk about heart health, butI don't think we're talking
enough about the impacts on thebrain 100% yeah.
Dr Jen (15:00):
And talking about society and the perception of
menopause in society and, as wewere saying before, women, just
that's when they go crazy andit's like, well, the brain goes
crazy, it's, and it's literallycrazy, it doesn't know what to
do.
And so I think bringing it backto the actual and, I think,
tangible things, people like tosee things is very important,
(15:22):
because it is driven by thebrain.
Sonya (15:24):
Okay, I have much more respect for my brain now, but
also it goes so far to explainwhy there are so many good days,
bad days, ups, downs, thiswhole period caused by the brain
trying to work out what thehell it's supposed to do now
that you're no longer producingthis dominant fuel.
Dr Jen (15:44):
And it's also that the estrogen is the beginning of a
catalyst of reactions, you know,so that the estrogen binds to
the estrogen receptor here,which sends signals to all these
other places to do all thesethings.
So it's not just a matter of inthat brain region, it won't
work.
It's like it's allinterconnected, like really like
a, like a web of, of, like anelectrician's wiring where
(16:06):
things are connected, and ifthat doesn't work, then this
won't work and that won't work,and so it's all very, very
connected, and I think that'sthe important part to remember.
Sonya (16:14):
Okay, Now I'm going to ask you a question that is
completely left afield, but itjust popped into my brain while
we were talking, so let's seewhere this takes us.
There is some talk and, Ibelieve, some research being
done out of the Buck Institutein California about postponing
menopause.
So it's like do we actuallyeven need menopause?
(16:38):
Do we need to experienceperimenopause and menopause and
the 10 or so years of upheavaland chaos that can be created?
And you may not have thoughtabout this, but if you have,
where do you sit in thatprospect for the future?
It's a big question.
Dr Jen (16:53):
Look, I think you know we're always making advances in
medicine and I think that'sgreat for certain people to look
at this sort of opportunity.
I guess it's the same as withIVF or freezing your eggs for
some people it works.
Personally, for me, from whatI've learned and from my
research, for me, from what I'velearned and from my research, I
(17:14):
wouldn't want to do that,because I think that menopause
is actually a gift, and it isthis neural rewiring is where it
starts to lead to adevelopmental change that
actually offers us anopportunity to become the person
that we really want to become,and obviously this is very kind
of spiritual and notneuroscientific at all.
But if you speak to women whohave gone through the menopausal
(17:35):
transition, the majority willtell you life on the other side
is so much better.
So you know, there are all lotsof theories about why do we
even go through menopause andsurvive?
Because most species die afterthey stop reproducing.
And then there's a theory that,well, actually we should be
dying, but medicine's keeping usalive.
(17:57):
Then there's the theory, thegrandmother hypothesis, which is
basically we just stay on earthto help our children look after
their children.
But I actually have acompletely different theory, and
I think that it is aninvitation to become your truest
, most authentic self andactually love life, enjoy life.
You've done the children.
If you had children, you'vedone the career, you've done the
thing and actually just go.
(18:17):
Who do I want to be?
And live as that person?
That's what I think.
So why would you want to denyyourself that?
Sonya (18:25):
Yeah, I love that.
One of the thoughts that cameinto my mind when you were
talking from a spiritualperspective.
It's almost like a levelling upenlightenment, isn't it, if you
kind of lean into some of theBuddhist theories.
It's really interesting becausewhen I first heard about the
Buck Institute and that researchand I was like, oh, that's
really cool, that would be greatto not have to go through all
this upheaval.
But now for me, eight yearspost-menopause, I agree with you
(18:49):
, I have very much stepped intothe power of somebody very
different to who I was in mypre-menopausal years.
And look, I also had a breastcancer diagnosis.
That changes thingssignificantly.
But I do have so manyconversations with women that
are post-menopausal and havebeen for some time, that are
absolutely living their bestlives and do really appreciate
(19:10):
the gift that can come withmenopause.
Dr Jen (19:12):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think you know.
Then you need to start thinkingabout do we stop puberty?
Do we get people to just gofrom child to do we just bombard
them with hormones to skippuberty?
But think of all the brainchanges that you're skipping.
Or pregnancy, you know it's.
You have to go through theneural remodeling that is
happening, through these threebig developmental transitions,
(19:35):
to get to the other side, and Ijust don't think that you can
skip it and I think it's just nooffense to the institute, but I
think it's just a sign of thetimes where it's like too hard,
let's just skip it, exactly,yeah.
Sonya (19:47):
And it's almost like gamifying life, isn't it?
It's a little bit like if wewere sitting here playing a game
, that you could have thisoption of take the red pill,
take the blue pill.
Do you want to have menopause,do you not?
Do you want to have adolescence, do you not?
Dr Jen (19:59):
I mean, we know from enough research that it is
through the adversity that thegrowth happens as a person,
aside from the brain.
So I think, just personally, Iwouldn't want to skip it.
I wouldn't want to skip any ofthe hard stuff, because it's
made me the person I am todayand I just can't wait to see who
I become.
Sonya (20:16):
Yeah, I love that so much .
I completely agree with you.
Thank you for that littlesidetrack with me.
So if we go back to what youwere talking about, which was
the upheaval to the brain, andit's driven from hormonal
changes, so if someone is nottaking hormone therapy therefore
(20:36):
they're not getting that kindof external top-up of the
hormones what else can be doneto help manage and kind of help
you navigate and negotiate thatperiod of upheaval, to help the
brain?
Dr Jen (20:50):
So I think it's like menopause, a very individualized
thing, so I can't say everyoneshould do this and it will work
for everyone.
But I think one of the mostimportant aspects is like
appreciating I know it soundsterrible because some people do
really struggle but appreciatingthat you can experience
(21:10):
menopause, that you're oldenough, that you have lived long
enough to be able to experiencethis and, taking a little bit
of a perspective change on it,that, rather than some sort of
failure of your brain or failureof your body or that you're now
going into the abyss of ageing,it's actually a transformation
(21:31):
and like we were talking aboutit being a renovation project
for the brain, so that there'sactually this beautiful
invitation to be able to changeyourself and to thrive into your
older age.
I think that is the first thing, because we do really have a
very negative connotation withmenopause in our western society
very and aging like we're aging.
(21:53):
We're such an anti-aging societyexactly, and I think that that
the fertility thing not that themajority of women won't want to
have children towards the endof their fertile years anyway,
but there's something about usnot being fertile anymore that
society has deemed less thanpointless, undesirable,
unattractive.
(22:13):
I don't know what it is.
It's silly.
I think about what it means toyou and not what it means to
other people, and not what itmeans to society, and being
grateful that you're still alive, because I know people and I'm
sure you do too who never got tothis point.
So a little bit of a Pollyannaapproach, I suppose the other
thing is definitely get to knowyour brain, get to know yourself
, get to know what is going oninside, so that you can
(22:36):
understand like we were justsaying that there is these
changes happening and some ofthem are profound, like they're
really really big changes thatare happening, so that when you
feel anxious or when you feel alittle bit depressed, or when
you feel you don't have enoughenergy, you can kind of
understand why.
Sonya (22:53):
Yeah, so it's like showing yourself a little bit of
grace during those periodsbecause you understand this
renovation project is going on.
Dr Jen (23:01):
And then learning learning about how you can use
this changing brain, how you canactually help direct your
changing brain to become theperson that you want to be, so
that you can use this changingbrain, how you can actually help
direct your changing brain tobecome the person that you want
to be, so that you can look atthe changes and the big upheaval
and everything as anopportunity to go right.
Okay, it's like I've got thismess in front of me.
Let me tidy it up and in theprocess, I want to become this
(23:24):
person or live this life, or beable to do these things, you
know, to basically direct yourpostmenopausal years the way you
want them.
Sonya (23:33):
Take that a little bit further for me what tools do you
recommend that women use toactually make the most of this
window?
I think you call it the goldenwindow of opportunity, which I
love so much.
What tools do you actuallyother than obviously that
education, awareness, ability toshow yourself grace because
your body is changing?
What other tools do you have ordo you recommend that women
(23:57):
kind of lean into?
Dr Jen (23:58):
I think it's really, really important to learn about
yourself.
So you need to have a littlebit of a dig in your family
history in yourself and behonest with yourself about your
DNA, your psychosocial history,your neuropsychological history,
your values and your beliefs,and also think about things that
have happened in your life thathave shaped your brain to this
(24:22):
point in time.
So that is not really a tool,it's more like a challenge, I
suppose, to just dig a littlebit, because when we look at
helping to direct the brain, sothe brain is in this very
plastic state when it's inperimenopause, which means it's
changing a lot, which means itis also easy for us to help
change it.
So it's like that's the windowof opportunity so we're able to
(24:45):
play a role in this.
And when you want to do that,one of the main things that you
want to create is consciousawareness, so that when
something happens, your reactionto that is your choice and it's
not just a reaction that comesfrom your DNA, your psychosocial
history, all those things.
(25:07):
So to create more space, thefirst thing I recommend for
women and this is, I think,useful in menopause anyway, even
if you don't want to delve intoyourself is meditation, because
meditation decreases stress andcortisol, it increases
perception of life and it justit's so good.
And it decreasesneuroinflammation as well, which
(25:29):
is one of the things thathappens when estrogen decreases.
So estrogen decreases,neuroinflammation goes up and
suddenly we start seeing allthese problems in the brain.
So meditation is one of thefirst things I recommend to
women Also, just to getcomfortable with sitting and
just seeing what thoughts comeup.
It's so simple.
Sonya (25:50):
It is, isn't it?
And meditation is one of thosethings that some people find
really easy and some people findreally hard.
So if somebody is perhapschallenged by the thought of
learning how to meditate andspending time meditating, what
advice do you have to them?
Dr Jen (26:06):
there, okay.
So meditation is not aboutswitching off your mind.
It's not about anything otherthan just sitting and noticing
hearing raindrops on a window orlistening to your breath.
It doesn't have to be, and ifyour mind wanders, you bring it
back.
So it's not so much aboutclearing your mind.
I think meditation again has hadthis terrible connotation put
on it that you have to be inlotus position and you've got to
(26:27):
free your mind and you need tobe clear and not have any bad
thoughts or whatever it is thatpeople think.
And it's not that at all.
It's just about beingconsciously aware.
And so I actually created afive-minute meditation that
every listener is welcome todownload, thank you.
I created it for myself becauseeveryone is busy and I get that
(26:50):
, and it doesn't need to be a45-minute process where you sit
cross-legged on the floor withyour bums hurting and your knees
hurting and you're like when isthis over?
It's meant to be a littlenurturing gift to your brain.
So I made this five-minute onefor myself because I was like I
don't have time, I don't evenhave 20 minutes in the morning
before the kids get up.
I'm happy to share it.
They're welcome to download it.
(27:11):
We can put the link in the shownotes if you'd like.
Sonya (27:13):
Yeah, absolutely 100%.
Thank you, and I love that it'sjust five minutes and, like you
said, it can be really hard tofind 20 minutes or 30 minutes in
your day when we're all focusedon how much protein we're
eating and how much exercisewe're getting and running around
looking after children andparents and blah, blah blah.
So I love that five minutes.
(27:34):
And is there a next step onfrom that where you talked about
getting to know yourself?
Getting to know, obviously, thethoughts that you're having
that crop up during meditation,but also understanding what it
is that you want to be in thefuture?
Is there a journaling side tothat as well that you would
recommend is useful to actuallyreally kind of unpack?
I know that's something thathelps me a lot.
Dr Jen (27:55):
Yeah, definitely, you can start journaling with it.
I'm actually just writing aboutit in my new book.
So my new book is basically allabout that journey from where
you are into the post-menopauseand navigating the rough seas of
menopause, because it is prettyrough for a lot of people.
I think journaling is a reallygood place to start and I think,
rather than putting so muchpressure on ourselves, going
(28:18):
right, I'm going to sit down andI'm going to delve into myself.
Just start maybe a note sectionin your phone, because a lot of
stuff comes to me when I'm inthe shower or places where I
have nothing, and then put abullet point and then you're
walking the dog and somethingelse and you go bullet point and
things might come up.
Oh, there was that time when Iwas eight when my uncle was
(28:39):
meant to pick me up and hedidn't come and I felt do you
know what stuff will come up?
And I think just to have theopenness and the curiosity for
it to come up and to write itdown, because all of that has
shaped your brain.
Sonya (28:50):
Every single action, experience, thought, feeling
that you have had has shapedyour brain, which is why
perimenopause will be differentfor every woman because all our
brains are different at thatpoint in time when perimenopause
begins, and throughout yeah,that's a really good reminder,
because we do talk about howeverybody's perimenopause
(29:11):
experience is going to bedifferent, but I don't think
we've talked enough about whythat actually is, because I
think at our basic level we gowell, we're all humans, we're
all women, and we forget thatit's actually the stuff we don't
see that is playing a big partin that.
Dr Jen (29:28):
Yeah, and from my perspective, what I teach is
very much about recognising whatshapes your brain.
Obviously, when you're inperimenopause, whether you have
young children or ageing parentsor a job that you like, there's
a lot of other factors as well,but when it comes to the brain,
it is about those things thatmake you you.
Sonya (29:46):
They make you you, and there is a lot of research
coming out now too, on the factthat and this will tie into what
you've just said that womenwho've experienced trauma
particularly earlier in theirlives, women that were
susceptible to PMDD, postnataldepression, things like that
will likely go on to have arougher time in perimenopause.
Dr Jen (30:07):
Yeah, yeah, that's right .
I certainly know from apostnatal depression perspective
, women who have experiencedpostnatal depression will have a
high chance of experiencingmenopausal depression again
during perimenopause.
We also have found in researchthat women who have never had a
child tend to have more severeperimenopause symptoms.
(30:29):
And I find that reallyinteresting because when I think
about how the brain rewires andreshapes itself during those
three key phases, if you missthat one, if you've had one
child, I would be curious toknow for someone who's had seven
children is it easier for themduring perimenopause?
(30:49):
I don't know, there's noresearch that I know of, but I
do know that women who havenever had a child, who have
never had that experience inthat developmental transition
presence where the brain changesitself radically radically
because you've got your ninemonths, you're growing a baby
and then suddenly you deliverthe baby and your estrogen just
plummets.
(31:09):
So it's radical and they'venever had that and then they
struggle more duringperimenopause.
I'm very, very curious aboutthat.
Sonya (31:18):
That's really interesting when you lay it out.
Through those three differenttransformational phases that we
go through, it does make sensethat if you missed one of those,
for whatever reason, that youare going to experience
something different through thefollowing transition.
Dr Jen (31:33):
Yeah, because it's all to do with change, like I was
saying to you, the things thatmake you you and how your brain
has changed to the point of whenyou come into perimenopause.
And even if you've never hadthat radical shift in hormones
where the brain is just like, ohmy God, we're going to do
something very quickly, does itaffect your perimenopausal
changes?
Sonya (31:52):
Yeah, there's so much research.
If we could fund research foreverything that I decide should
be studied, we'd have somefascinating information by the
end of it all, wouldn't we?
Dr Jen (32:02):
Yeah, another thing I'm really fascinated about, and I
talk about a lot, is the overlapof postpartum and perimenopause
, so when you have huge brainchanges in postpartum and coming
into motherhood but you're likein your early, mid, late
forties, really interesting.
I am one of those women that,well, I have my kids in my
thirties, my early thirties, butI have friends that have had
(32:24):
kids into their 40s and thenthey are literally just bouncing
straight from post-pregnancyand postpartum into
perimenopause and there's nokind of gap between it, and I
can't wait for the research tocome out on it, because what the
brain is doing, it's adaptingitself to become a mother, to
get attuned to the baby's cry,to become selfless because
(32:47):
you're trying to keep this babyalive, but at the same time,
it's going through theperimenopausal transition, where
you're becoming a little bitmore selfish.
Well, exactly, so what ishappening?
And is the chaos more extreme?
And no wonder women feel soconfused.
Sonya (33:04):
Oh, my goodness, there's so much to unpack in this topic,
isn't there?
This is fascinating, absolutelyfascinating.
I want to finish up by takingyou back to something we talked
about right at the verybeginning of our conversation.
That is something that comes upa lot, and it is related to the
work that Dr Lisa Moscone isdoing, obviously as well, and
that is the links to Alzheimer'sand the menopausal change.
Dr Jen (33:31):
So can you talk us through what you know about that
?
So with the decline in estrogenor with the fluctuation in
estrogen, people who have a riskof Alzheimer's disease they've
got this APO gene, aleph-4, willhave a greater amyloid deposits
due to the estrogen.
So the estrogen removes them.
The estrogen removes it as partof its function, of what it
(33:52):
needs to do.
So as the estrogen goes down,the deposits stay up, and so
women are at risk of Alzheimer'sdisease post-menopause because
of that.
Sonya (34:03):
Okay, so you mentioned that that was like a plaque
earlier.
Is that right?
So the estrogen kind of waslike a plaque earlier, is that
right?
Dr Jen (34:11):
So the estrogen kind of acts like a flossing agent.
It's not just that one, there'salso tau and all sorts of other
things.
That estrogen cleans the brain.
I guess it's like a flossingagent, a toothbrush, whatever
you want to call it.
It helps clean the brain and itlowers the neuroinflammation
and everything.
Neuroinflammation is anothermarker as well.
Yeah, so that would go on toexplain why we see women being
twice as likely to be diagnosedwith alzheimer's as men, into
(34:35):
old age that's what this, that'swhat the research is suggest
suggesting, and because we doknow that women are twice as
likely as men, we almost have tolook at menopause because men
don't go through it.
So, yeah, it's reallyfascinating and I'm really
looking forward to more researchin that space.
Sonya (34:49):
That was something I wanted to make sure that we
talked about, because it issomething that is spoken about a
lot more.
I'm hoping that a part of thatresearch that's being done is
the benefits of taking hormonetherapy.
So if you do keep thoseestrogen levels even a little
bit higher post-menopausal, thatcreates some protective factors
for the brain yeah, lisamusconi is doing research into
(35:10):
that and it looks like that.
Dr Jen (35:12):
Estrogen supplementation certainly, but you probably
probably progesterone as well,because it's also very, very
important for the brainprogesterone that it supports
women who are more at risk ofal's disease.
Sonya (35:25):
One of the downsides of research and studies is it takes
a long time for us to get tothe point where the evidence is
presented and released and thenany changes are made as a result
of that.
But it's exciting that thatresearch is being done.
Dr Jen (35:40):
Yeah, unfortunately getting the research done is one
of the harder parts as well,because there's a big fight
always for money, for funding,and so even just getting it done
is difficult and then, like yousaid, by the time it gets done
and then it gets published andit gets released, it takes a
long time.
So I'm quite happy to go withanecdotal research sometimes at
(36:01):
this stage.
If it supports women, thengreat.
Sonya (36:04):
I think that's an amazing note to finish up on.
Jen.
Was there anything else thatyou wanted to share before we
finish up?
Dr Jen (36:10):
Yeah, well, look, I just think that it's so important
for women to think of menopauseas a developmental transition.
It's not a failing, it's not anending.
It is a beautiful beginning foryou.
And please start meditating.
Even if you don't download mymeditation, go to on YouTube.
You can get lots of free things.
Sonya (36:30):
Start meditating, start, you know, training your brain
and and exercising your brain tothrive through perimenopause
and into your older, older lifeAmazing, and I'm excited for
your next book, which I know youare working hard on at the
moment.
Jen, thank you so much for yourtime today.
Dr Jen (36:46):
Thank you so much for having me.
It's been wonderful.
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