May 15, 2025 • 41 mins
What happens to marriages and long-term relationships during menopause?
Clinical psychologist Kirstin Bouse returns to the podcast to tackle this powerful question, revealing why 70% of midlife breakups are initiated by women.
The menopause transition triggers not just hormonal changes but profound psychological shifts. Neuroplasticity during this period reshapes women's brains, often leading to significant evolutions in identity, values, and what they're willing to tolerate. As Kirstin explains, "I hear from a lot of women: I just want to live from me, not from my role as mum or wife. I want to experience joy that's just about me."
We explore how these changes impact relationships from multiple angles. For partnerships with potential, we discuss how honest conversations can determine whether couples can evolve together or if paths must diverge.
Importantly we discuss that when a woman is living in an unhealthy or controlling relationship, perimenopause may increase vulnerability making it even more important that her safety and wellbeing are the top priority.
The conversation doesn't shy away from the challenges of rebuilding life as a single person in midlife, with Kirstin offering practical guidance on finding joy, creating a new identity, and building resilience. Throughout it all, one theme remains constant: the importance of support during this transformative period.
Whether you're questioning your own relationship, supporting a friend through changes, or simply wanting to understand this common midlife phenomenon, this episode offers insight, compassion, and a roadmap for navigating relationships through the turbulence of menopause.
Subscribe to Dear Menopause for more expert conversations that help you navigate this significant life transition with knowledge and confidence.
If you or someone you know is experiencing an unsafe or abusive relationship, please seek support - help is available, and you are not alone. Support services within Australia are listed below.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sonya (00:01):
Welcome to the Dear Menopause podcast.
I'm Sonia Lovell, your host Now.
I've been bringing youconversations with amazing
menopause experts for over twoyears now.
If you have missed any of thoseconversations, now's the time
to go back and listen, and youcan always share them with
anyone you think needs to hearthem.
This way, more people can findthese amazing conversations,
(00:25):
needs to hear them.
This way, more people can findthese amazing conversations.
Welcome to this week's episodeof Dear Menopause.
Today, I am super excited to bejoined by a return guest,
Kirstin Bouse.
Kirstin (00:35):
Kirstin, welcome to the show.
Thank you for having me.
It's amazing to be back and canI just add that I love your
podcast and it is the one like.
If I am asked what should Ilisten to to help me understand
menopause, Yours is absolutelythe first one that I provide
because of the breadth ofinformation you provide, so
(00:58):
you're doing an amazing job.
Sonya (01:00):
That's really lovely to hear.
I love getting that feedback.
Gosh, there's 120 plus episodesnow and all of them with such
different experts, differentconversations, so it's really
means the world to me that yourecommend it.
So thank you so much.
Kirstin (01:14):
All right.
Sonya (01:15):
For anyone that is new.
Why don't you tell us all alittle bit about who you are and
what it is that you do in thisworld of the menopausal
transition?
Kirstin (01:23):
Yeah, sure, so I have a very interesting career, but
out of the last nearly threedecades, the last 15 years have
especially been focused onworking with women through
transitions, and where thatbegan at the beginning of that
period of time was in theperinatal space.
And it's no surprises that asthey got old that I moved into
(01:45):
the perimenopause space.
So that is really where I'vebeen working now.
And you know, as a clinicalpsychologist, I'm working with
women who are finding theirmental health is being impacted
by the experience ofperimenopause.
But I also work with a lot ofwomen who wouldn't necessarily
kind of meet a diagnosis ofmenopausal depression or anxiety
or anything like that.
(02:05):
But I really, I guess navigatingwhat I like to call the
psychological tensions that seemto come up in this particular
developmental stage and I meanall of the work is just so like
I just so love it and I, youknow I just it really is my
happy place.
On top top of that, I alsoeducate and train within the
profession of psychology in thisarea.
(02:27):
I founded All About Her, whichis kind of a collective of
psychologists who really work inthe menopause space as well,
who make sure they're across thecutting edge information,
because now that we're at thisstage and the conversation's
been happening, there's a lothappening, isn't there?
There's so much more happening,we're just going to see some
cool changes ahead, and we'reall very committed to staying on
(02:51):
top of all of that.
So they're the things that Ispend my time doing and being a
part of, and, yes, I just feelsuper fortunate.
Sonya (03:00):
And we as women are super fortunate to have amazing
professionals and clinicianslike yourself in this space
helping.
So today we have a specifictopic that we've come together
to talk about.
You and I have kind of goneback and forth a little bit on
how we were going to frame thisconversation, but I think it's a
really important conversationthat I feel is being heard a lot
more in the public space, and Iwanted to bring in someone with
(03:23):
the expertise like yourself toreally unpack what it actually
looks like, what it actuallymeans, and that is the impact of
this transition throughperimenopause and menopause on
personal relationships, but veryspecifically, marriages and or
long-term relationships and thepotential for disruption and, in
(03:46):
many cases, an actual breakdownof that relationship.
Kirstin (03:50):
Yeah, yeah, look, I think we've known for quite some
time that this is a stage or anage, and therefore a stage of
life, where a lot of marriagesand de facto relationships do
break down, although I guess inprior generations it might have
been at that more into themenopausal, you know, in the
(04:12):
menopausal years, where thingswere really falling apart.
It does seem to look, when Ikind of look at the research, it
does seem to be happening morein the pre-menopausal stage and
I think there's some kind ofcultural factors in relation to
that.
Typically there's morefinancial freedom, not for
everyone, but for some.
There's certainly less tabooabout relationships ending.
(04:32):
I think.
Whereas previous generationsmight have waited for the kids
to be grown up, I thinkgenerations now are aware that
toxic relationships aren't greathouseholds to be raising
children in.
So yeah, I think there's abunch of factors that might have
brought that shift to themarriage breakdown happening
earlier.
But what we do know is that thevast majority of marriages and
(04:55):
de facto relationships that endduring this stage of life are
initiated by the women.
I think the stats said about70%, and that doesn't surprise
me.
And it doesn't surprise me fortwo reasons.
One is I see it a lot in thetherapy room and I have
throughout this, particularlythis last 15 years when I've
been working solely with womenand dedicated to transition work
(05:15):
, and secondly, it makescomplete sense to me from a
psychological perspective aswell.
So, yeah, I can understand whyit's starting to be talked about
more, because it's actuallybeen happening for a while.
Sonya (05:25):
So what I'd like to dive into that you just touched on
then is that it makes sense toyou from a psychological aspect.
Talk us through what you meanby that.
Kirstin (05:34):
Yeah, this is going to be a crude kind of
categorisation, shall we say,but I think there's two kind of
significant drivers that I cansee in this particular you, this
particular reality ofrelationships ending at this
time.
So the first one is the veryreal impact of symptoms and the
pressure it places women under.
They're struggling, they're notable to manage the gazillion
(05:58):
things that they used to manage.
It causes tensions inrelationships, conflicts in
relationships.
It can certainly impactintimacy in relationships, so
relationships can become evenmore kind of fractured than they
might've been, or the fracturesreally start showing, and so I
would kind of look at that asthe symptoms and experience of
(06:19):
perimenopause and the challengesthat that brings are having a
big impact on the relationship.
Then, on the flip side, I thinkand this is still kicked off by
this neuroendocrine event,perimenopause but then the flip
side of that, or the addition tothat, is that this is a stage
of life where the research andwe do need more, we need more
everywhere, don't we?
(06:40):
But the research, we need moreof what I mentioned before the
psychological tensions that Ijust see time and time again and
are scattered amongst theresearch that women are faced
with during this period of time,and those psychological
tensions are things like theshifts in their identity, their
shifts in their value systemsand in their ideology, shifts in
(07:01):
how they experience themselvessexually, and also and also this
increased drive for autonomyand to be really pursuing the
things that fulfill them, aboveand beyond the roles that they
play.
So I hear from a lot of women Ijust want to live from me, not
from my role as mom, my role asa wife or a partner.
(07:25):
I want to experience joy andpursue things that give me joy,
not just the things that my kidsdo, that you know I really
enjoy and are joyful, and thethings that I share with my
partner.
I want to pursue the thingsthat bring me joy and that light
me up and that interest me andengage me, that are just about
me.
And so from that perspective,particularly if you don't have a
(07:47):
partner who's able to supportthose things and, as a minimum,
support them, let alonehopefully possibly grow with you
, then that poses challenges andchallenges for relationships as
well.
Sonya (08:02):
Yeah, I can imagine that.
I know that I have experienceda shift in identity and, you
know, lack of people pleasingand a growth into almost a
different person, like I feellike I've significantly evolved
over the last eight years or soand I recently chatted with
(08:23):
neuroscientist Dr JenHacker-Pearson and we talked
about that neuroplasticity thatis going on during the
perimenopausal stage and that isa part of a reshaping and a
reforming who you actually areas a person into this second
half of your life and it's areally exciting time for many,
(08:43):
but it's a very confusing and, Iwould imagine, confronting time
for some as well, andparticularly if it's taking the
blinders off in things likerelationships where perhaps
there has been a level oftolerance or there has been a
level of you know, this is it,this is just where I am and this
is what I do, and that startsto shift when we start
(09:03):
questioning all of where we sitin that and what are we willing
to tolerate for the next half ofour life.
Kirstin (09:09):
Yeah, absolutely.
There's so many points that Iwant to pick up from what you've
said.
And you know, just as anexample, and I'm usually pretty
happy to share my story.
So I've been with my partnerfor seven years now and I truly
believe that he is in arelationship with a very
different person version of me,and I actually said that to him
(09:31):
the other day.
I said I really feel like you,you just, you just don't know
this this previous version of me, like I'm inherently the same
but at the same time, vastlydifferent.
And yeah, so that that's myexperience.
And I often say and I'mreasonably confident my
ex-husband won't be listening tothis podcast episode but I also
(09:53):
kind of reasonably confident.
I also can say that I don'tknow how we would have traveled
these years together, myex-husband and I, because and
I'm a little bit embarrassed toactually say this now because
I've moved so far from thisplace but I was known as a bit
of a yes, wife, just in terms oflike for me, I saw it as not
(10:15):
sweating the small stuff.
You know, it was just like, andthere's an element make it easy
yeah, I just that was me and nowI am far more comfortable with
not going with the flow, withnot speaking up none of that
self-silencing which I've beenkind of doing a fair amount of
research into lately and you canreally see the um.
(10:36):
The research shows the impactson women's physical health and
psychological health aroundself-silencing.
Like it's great to have itconfirmed.
It's a bit scary that it's areality and yeah, so I really
feel as though this is the stagewhere, as Jen says Jen's a
friend of mine and a colleagueas well that neuroplasticity
(10:57):
does create some vulnerabilityin us, for sure, but it also is
this significant opportunitywhere we are, our brains are
just changing and it how can,how can our brains change and
then not have us and how we arein the world and who we are in
the world and what we want inthe world change as well.
I mean, it's just kind ofcommon sense yeah, yeah, it is,
(11:19):
isn't it?
Sonya (11:20):
and um, I think from my perspective, I've seen it as
shifting my female friendships.
I'm still very happily marriedto the same person that I met
when I was 25.
So it's like 35 years and ithas not always been an easy
cruisy.
35 years.
Kirstin (11:37):
I'll be completely honest about that.
Sonya (11:38):
You know we've had our ups and downs, but we have, you
know, come through them all, andone of the things that you know
, I know, comes with that is abuilding of a beautiful
resilience, and my husband and Iquite often laugh about the
fact that we feel very much likewe're now married to different
people than we were when wemarried in our 20s you know it's
almost like having twomarriages, but we just married
(11:59):
the same person, Esther.
Kirstin (12:00):
Perel, the relationship guru, often says you know, I've
had multiple marriages, butI've only had one, you know.
Sonya (12:08):
And I think she nails it with that statement yeah, yeah,
and that is exactly how we feelwithin our marriage you know I'm
super lucky to have a partnerwho has been willing to grow and
evolve and support through allthe things that we've been
through, and we've done thatequally.
But I noticed a shift in myfemale French when that
definitely came from a place ofme.
I loved what you said beforeabout self-silencing and I think
(12:32):
I did that in my femalefriendships more so.
Kirstin (12:36):
It was important for me to find friends that I felt
like were long-term friends, butI did then realize that we'd
all grow in and move intodifferent directions and yeah,
so I noticed that same shift inmy relationships, but more from
a friendship perspective yeah,and I see that too, because
often we come into this stageand the friends that we're
bringing into this stage mighthave been the friends sometimes
(12:59):
from primary school, but, youknow, high school and uni and
careers and things, but alsofriendships that are formed when
in our mothering years and Ithink once, once our children
are at an age where they're, youknow, kind of independent, even
though some of them don't leavehome and stuff, and it's
probably not going to changeanytime soon, but there, you
(13:19):
know, it does free you up in somany ways and I think that also,
that kind of shift in in thecontext of your life and the
things that are going on in yourlife creates an extra sense of
freedom where it's like what doI still have in common because
your kids are going off anddoing their own things too.
So, yeah, it's a bit like, oh,even our kids are really moving
(13:43):
on from those friendships, theirown friendships at times, and
it just creates a reallydifferent scenario.
And I also find some of thefeedback that I get from clients
and I've got a few beautifulfaces in my head when I think
about this is that in theirfriendships they that they want
the conversations to change.
(14:05):
They want the conversations todeepen and be far more
nourishing in terms of who theyare and how they think about the
world and what's important tothem.
They do want to move from theconversations about the annoying
husband or partner or what arethe kids up to.
If their friends aren't able tomove into those kinds of deeper
(14:27):
conversations, it also starts tohave a sense of disconnection.
And the other thing that I heara lot from clients around this
same topic, I guess as well isthey often want a lot more alone
time too.
So their friendships and womenneed women.
I'm absolutely a big believerin that.
But we need, you know, we needjust a few women.
(14:49):
You don't need lots, but weneed a few really close women in
our lives Doesn't necessarilymean we need to see them all the
time, and I think perimenopauseand menopause is naturally
certainly in the early stages ofmenopause is naturally a time
where we often do want toretreat.
Menopause is naturally a timewhere we often do want to
retreat, and I guess sometimes Ihear that friendships can't
(15:09):
tolerate that space that'sneeded by one or some of them.
There's other people who takeit personally.
There's other people who maybearen't quite there yet.
Perhaps they also need thesupport systems from the
friendship group, and theretreating then feels like
somewhat of a rejection.
So those, I think, are thethings that shift in friendship,
female friendships, during thisperiod of time.
Sonya (15:29):
That's really interesting and I'm glad I'm not the only
one that's experienced that.
So, taking us back to the topicabout marriages and long-term
relationships and the shifts anddynamics that are happening in
those, for somebody that'ssitting there listening to us
having this conversation andthey're thinking, yeah, actually
that's how I've been feeling.
I'm that person that isactually questioning is this a
(15:53):
relationship I want to be in forthe next 30, 40 years?
You know where do I sit in this.
What do you recommend?
Somebody that is maybe one footin, one foot out, yep.
What are the tools that you canlean into to either work out
(16:16):
for yourself if you want to befully invested in the
relationship and therefore findways to move forward, or, on the
flip side, decide that actuallyno, this is no longer for me
and I want to decouple from thisrelationship now.
Kirstin (16:30):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's a hard place to be and I
actually think that that is areally common.
There's a lot of people in thatone foot in, one foot out
scenario because most of thetime if they're out, then they
start taking action and mightcome and see me, for example, to
just work out a goal and youknow all of that kind of jazz.
(16:55):
I think the first thing is forthem to really be understanding
themselves, you know, and whathas actually happened for them.
So there's a fair degree ofintersection.
That I'd be encouraging.
Like, how have you changed?
What is it about thisrelationship that isn't meeting
your needs and isn't kind offeeling fulfilling?
Was it always the case?
Because that's the other thing.
(17:15):
It always the case becausethat's the other thing?
I mean, if you've kind of beenhanging on for a while, um, then
you know, yeah, that's that'sone particular scenario.
If it's been more, if it is morecoinciding with this particular
stage of life, I would bereally curious, um about, or I'd
be suggesting to someone toexplore what is it that you're
wanting that you're not getting?
(17:36):
What is it that you're gettingthat you're not wanting?
But what is it that you'regetting that you're not wanting?
But I'd also be suggesting haveyou talked about this with your
partner?
It can take a while between thatintrospection and getting clear
on what's missing, and gettingclear on what you want and why
you don't think that what youwant is possible before the
conversation.
Jeez, it's a tricky conversation, but it's an important
conversation and it also isn'tjust one conversation, it's many
(18:01):
.
It'll be very difficult to hearand really confronting, and it
may not go so well the first fewtimes, but there will come a
point where I think you can makean assessment whether whether
your partner is going to be onboard in evolving in this
relationship, because theencouragement would also be for
them to evolve like what arethey not?
What would they like more of?
What they like less of?
(18:21):
How are they feeling inthemselves?
Are they fulfilled as peoplewithin themselves, let alone
within the relationship?
So I mean that's the idealright and at some point in the
conversations I think womenwould be able to determine
whether their partner isinterested.
But but even through theconversation it's actually only
reinforced.
It's going to happen or it's no.
(18:43):
I have lost that kind of loveand that desire to try and work
on this, or it will be okay,this might be possible.
Sonya (18:52):
And it might be.
I didn't know you were feelingthis way.
Oh my gosh, if I'd known.
Kirstin (18:57):
Or it might just be you are not capable of this
evolution, you're not capable ofsupporting me in mine and
you're not capable of anevolution as an individual, let
alone as a couple.
So I think they're the kinds ofloose questions to be tossing
around and mulling over.
But it definitely starts with areflective kind of position
(19:19):
about ourselves.
We have to know what it is,what's gone on for us that it's
now different very good adviceand, like you say, not something
to be entered into lately.
Sonya (19:30):
none of this is going to be easy, but if it does show you
where either there are areas togrow and evolve together or
there's obvious that you're notgoing to be able to, at least
then you can kind of removeyourself from that one foot in,
one foot out scenario.
Kirstin (19:47):
I do get lots of clients in that one foot
starting to see me in that exactscenario, and none of us like
living in the unknown.
I try and slow them down alittle bit on either way, like
slow them down from no, okay,I'm just going to stick with it,
and you know that's how it is.
So let alone you know I do slowthem down if it's like okay,
(20:09):
I'm going to move out or I'mgoing to say it's over or
whatever.
Either way, try and remain inthe area of possibility for
longer, which is reallydifficult, and I think that's
where support's needed.
And ideally support comes fromour, you know, close friends,
from our women, male friends,sometimes family, sometimes
(20:32):
professionals.
But we need support to be ableto stay in the unknown long
enough to work out what the nextright step actually is.
Sonya (20:41):
One of the topics that I wanted to raise with you and you
and I did chat about thisbeforehand we're not here to
dive into this topic too deepand that is that what we've
talked about so far is very muchthe assumption that somebody is
in a healthy enoughrelationship, that it's likely
that you can have thoseconversations, that you can come
(21:01):
to some type of mutualagreement.
It's going to be if you dodecide, you're both feet out
that leaving is actually goingto be an option.
Although not easy, it is stillan option that's on the table.
I think it's important torecognize that there are many
people that are in relationships, unfortunately, that aren't
(21:23):
that healthy.
And how does this conversationthat we are having now so much
more publicly around menopauseand in having that conversation
we are highlighting the symptomsand the areas where some women
are really struggling a bit withcognitive function and memory
and moods and lack of libido andthings like that For someone
that is perhaps in arelationship with that sort of
(21:45):
information can actually beweaponized and used against them
?
What, if any, advice?
Do you have someone in thatsituation?
Kirstin (21:53):
Yeah, I think that this is a really important
conversation to have, and surewe won't go deep because it's
very, very complicated,difficult stuff going on within
them.
You know their memory can goand find difficult work.
(22:29):
Their bandwidth is way less.
Therefore, their capacity toplease and placate, to settle
which is a massive role task forwomen in these kind of
scenarios they do a heck of alot of trying to really keep the
peace and that requires a heckof a lot of self-sacrifice,
self-silence and persuading, andyou know our capacity to do
(22:51):
that is compromised and theability to be gaslit, or the
vulnerability to be gaslit evenfurther, is increased in these
scenarios and in thesesituations.
And so I would like it to bevery much acknowledged that it
is an even more vulnerable timefor women in these situations
(23:15):
because they're less able tokeep themselves safe, as safe as
is possible whilst they're inthat scenario.
Leaving may be beyond theircapacity as well, because of all
those reasons that they don'thave even less confidence in
themselves.
They have even less ability tothink things through and plan
how they're going to go about it.
So I mean by this particularstage of life, if they've been
(23:37):
in that kind of relationship,you know, throughout and until
this stage, they already havelimited confidence.
Unfortunately, the gaslightinghas probably been reasonably
successful so that they don'tbelieve that they can manage on
it.
They don't believe they'reworthy of leaving.
They do believe that thesethings are their fault.
(23:59):
They can't even they've been sowell trained for want of a
better word to that.
They can't even rely on theirown perception of events in the
moment, let alone theirrecollection of them, and so,
yeah, they become morevulnerable and I think we just
need to understand how you goabout supporting yourself during
that period of time.
The ante is just that you'dstill be trying to access the
(24:21):
services that can support womenin these scenarios.
On the flip side, althoughstill extremely risky, is that
shift in just have no fucksanymore, I can't do this, I
don't want to do this anymore.
Which which sounds fabulousbecause it might be the
motivation for women to actuallyfinally leave, but it could
(24:44):
increase the confidence prior tofinding a safe way to leave and
a safe place to live.
So that inability, you knowthat irritability that we
experience, the shorter fuse,the less capacity for stress, to
manage stress, increases ourlikelihood that we'll say the
(25:05):
wrong thing.
We might be therefore moreinclined to actually say no when
for decades we've said yesbecause, very rightly well,
we've reduced the capacity andsecondly, we're also at the
stage where it's like a minute,so it can increase the risk for
women.
It's, it's tricky, reallytricky thank you.
Sonya (25:27):
I really wanted us to acknowledge that that situation
exists, unfortunately, sadly,heartbreakingly for women, and,
you know, not just women, forpeople that find themselves in
unhealthy relationships.
I think it's also important forpeople that are perhaps
supporting other people throughthose relationships as well, to
understand exactly what you saidthat this can actually be a
(25:50):
more vulnerable, more dangeroustime for them.
And perhaps if you do have afriend that you are seeing going
through this kind of strugglewithin her own relationship and
you have this burning desire tojust go come on, just get out of
there, like, seriously, you'vejust got to leave this, why are
you putting up with this?
Kirstin (26:06):
That that isn't necessarily actually going to be
the safest path for her to kindof just immediately throw
herself into, yeah, yeah, andthere's organizations though
that, and there's organisationsthough that can help women in
these scenarios and can help thepeople that care about them
navigate and plan for how to getout.
(26:27):
And often it's an interestingconcept because planning to get
out when the moment arises itcan be unexpected and unplanned
in that last moment, but theplanning still needs to be done
beforehand for this unknown daydate that they might have the
opportunity to do so, andideally then things are being
(26:48):
put in place for when thatopportunity unexpectedly arises.
But, yes, there's definitelyorganisations that can certainly
help with that and they are.
You know, they've just got somany resources and ideas and
linked with other communitygroups that can really help
people navigate that and, as Isaid, the people that help them.
Sonya (27:10):
Fantastic.
I will link through in the shownotes to some of those
organisations so that anybodythat is listening, that feels
that they may be beneficial tothem, can find them easily today
.
I hope that some of thoseorganizations are educating
themselves now that thistransitional time and the impact
that it does have on so manyaspects of a woman's life are
(27:32):
being included in theirupskilling and their education
programs and their ability toperhaps support women in this
particular transition a littlebit maybe, differently to how
they might support someonethat's a bit younger.
Kirstin (27:45):
Yeah, it is actually happening because I've been
asked to deliver two workshopsto a couple of organisations
here in Perth that do recognisethat and appreciate that that's
needed.
I'm a clinical and forensicstaff, as you know, so the early
part of my career, this worldis very familiar to me as well.
Yeah, from those years, thosedecades.
Sonya (28:06):
Thank you for going down to that little path with me.
I really appreciate it.
And moving then on to when youdo decide to, or you're capable
of, leaving a relationship andyou find yourself at this time
of life in a scenario where,suddenly, you are single for
potentially the first time in areally long time, what kind of
(28:29):
tools do you recommend then thatsomebody leans into?
Because I would imagine thatthat can be just as confronting
finding yourself suddenly alonein the world when you're used to
being in a partnership for sucha long time good or bad.
How does someone in thatsituation kind of find her feet?
Kirstin (28:46):
Yeah, I think it is a really unusual period of time
and I do remember that period oftime and I guess one of the
things that made a bigdifference for me is I had a lot
of support and I've had a meansof earning an income and I
think we can't overlook theprivilege that some of us have
and that others don't.
That's a really big difference.
And I know people don't want tohear this I certainly didn't,
(29:06):
but it's going to be hard.
It's going to be hard, it'sgoing to be difficult.
You might find that there'sthis initial experience of
relief like, oh, how cool is it?
You know, I don't have to cooka meal for someone else, or
maybe the kids are still movingbetween two houses.
Particularly, that scenario canbe like, oh, I've got my kids
this week and then oh, they'reoff and I've got all this time
(29:26):
to myself.
So there can actually be thishoneymoon period funnily enough,
that word you know for thisperiod of time when your friends
become single again and thenthe loneliness can step in.
And if you haven't had massivefinancial stresses in the early
stages of how do we manage, howdo I support myself financially
and sorting assets and things,at some point they're going to
(29:49):
arise.
At some point you're going tofind that you really miss having
someone that you can talk aboutevery day with, at the end of
the day, that you have a senseof being in it together.
Kids having a problem and,depending on the nature of the
relationship, post-breakup youmight feel still quite alone in
managing that.
Or your elderly parents havestuff going on and now you don't
(30:14):
have that person who you've.
Yes, you might have decidedit's not right for me to stay in
this relationship, but you missthe sense of team.
You miss the sense of I've gotsomeone to back me up here.
We're in it together.
I know that was a particularlyprofound shift for me.
I think as well.
Unfortunately, what seems tohappen is you lose friends from
(30:34):
the other side and all of thatkind of stuff.
It really just needs to beacknowledged as a period of
profound grief, whether it comesimmediately or whether it comes
a bit further down the track.
You can't escape it.
It's going to bite you on thebum at some point.
It it's really important toallow it to be there and it may
not be something that you say inthat period of time.
You know grief for a long, longtime.
(30:56):
We're all very, very differentwith how we experience these
things and the circumstancesthat we were in and we find
ourselves in.
But what I would certainly do isI'd be starting to use this as
an opportunity to really againclarify well, now I'm single,
because you've done the thinkingof who am I, what do I want?
Can I get it in thisrelationship or not?
(31:17):
No, okay, now I'm single, andso now we have to actually
revisit some of those questionswho am I as a single person?
What do I want as a singleperson, which is very different
to what do I want in my nextrelationship, and a lot of
people jump into that onestraight away.
I don't have rules around howlong you have to be single
(31:38):
before you start dating.
Whatever works for you.
But I certainly think there isa really important step in how
do I want my life to look as asingle person, so that, if and
when you do meet someone, you'rereally in that kind of steady,
solid place within yourself andyou've got a good sense of who
you are.
(31:58):
You've got a good life, you'vebuilt a good life as a single
person and they just complementit rather than finish, fill gaps
and stuff like that.
So, so I think that's reallyimportant.
I'm a big chaser of joy,because this is really the time
you often don't have to answerto someone about how you spend
your time, how you spend yourmoney, who you spend your time
(32:21):
with, all of that kind of stuff.
So it's like what is it that youcan bring into your life that
will help you grow, that willreally reinforce and reward this
decision that you've made,because you've made it to be
supportive and nourishing ofyourself.
You know, if you've decided toleave the relationship and I
(32:42):
guess that's the difference,because sometimes relationships
do end and you weren't the onethat ended it you know, if
you've decided to end thisrelationship, it's because you
want something more for yourself.
Now it's up to you to go andget it.
You don't have to rush out anddo a gazillion things, but it is
a really great time to thinkabout what was the one thing
that I often said to myself I'dlove I'll do that when I retire,
(33:04):
or do that when the kids arereally off my hands, or whatever
.
So'd start experimenting.
And I use that word reallyintentionally, because, again,
in the therapy room, what I findwomen can get hung up on is
they don't want to startsomething without knowing that
it's the thing that they'resupposed to be doing and that
they're going to like it and allthe rest.
(33:25):
And I'm like I get it.
And sometimes people know whatthey want to do and they're
quite confident enough they goand do it and it does give them
all the things they're hopingfor.
But that sense of getting itright can really paralyse people
.
But what if I don't like?
What if I sign up to a bookclub?
I think you might know I joinedBurlesque last year, at the
(33:48):
beginning of last year, in mychasing joy, 2024 year still,
I'm still doing it because Ilove it.
Um, but I could have said, oh,but I don't know if I like it,
so I'm not going to try, andthen I'd just never try it,
right, um?
So we need to be very flexibleand allow ourselves, give
ourselves the permission to tryand not like, try and pull out.
You know, try and stop, don'tfinish the term of whatever you
(34:10):
might have signed up for, andjust be really curious, curious
as to what brings you joy, whatnourishes your mind, your soul,
your heart, whatever.
That would definitely besomething that I would suggest
because it's very anchoring andin difficult times when we've
got other sources of joy thatcome into our lives relatively
regularly, it helps us.
(34:30):
It's the soft pillow we land onwhen life kind of pushes us
over again, rather than fallingon a very, very hard surface.
Sonya (34:40):
I love that thinking of it as the soft pillow that
you've got there to catch youwhen you do fall, and when we
all fall at different times.
Definitely I don't want tospend a whole heap of time on
this, but you did mentionsomething then that I think is
worth kind of having a littlebit of a conversation around
before we finish up, and that isthose that find themselves in a
situation where they didn'tchoose to end the relationship.
Kirstin (35:02):
Sometimes there's a sense of seeing it coming and,
having seen it coming, it's ashock that their partner might
actually have gone ahead anddone it, but the reasons why may
not be such a surprise andreflection.
And then there certainly can beoh my God, I definitely did not
see this coming.
And you know, I think in thosescenarios the process can be a
(35:24):
lot more intense and a lot moredifficult and there's a heck of
a lot more grief.
And usually the grief showsitself pretty quickly not
thoroughly comes down the track,when you feel, you know, you
feel like you're building a lifethat is, you know, something
that you have meaning in andfind fulfills you.
And things can take a while.
(35:44):
So, like any experience of grief, it really does take time.
And unfortunately, on top ofall of that is just all the
stuff to sort.
There's assets, there'sliabilities, there's kids, often
to have conversations withextended family even, um, you
know, there's just so much tonavigate.
I actually think it takes areally long time for all of the
(36:08):
bits to be sorted enough toactually be like okay, now I can
actually just focus on the, thehurt and the loss and the pain.
I mean that it's not likeyou're traveling okay, while
you're sorting all the stuffeither, but you really don't
have a lot of space to to bewith and work through lots and
lots of support.
I I think knowing who are inyour corner I think is really,
(36:31):
really important, and one of thethings that I did because I was
in that scenario, I didn't makethe choice was I set up an
email address which wasessentially to myself, like my
own email address.
And I wrote a lot of dearso-and-so emails of various
various flavours, particularlyevery time I wanted to um pick
up the phone and sell some stuffor send some messages or
(36:55):
something it's akin.
Sonya (36:57):
It's akin to, you know, writing in a journal and then
afterwards, yeah, exactly it is.
It's never meant to be seen,it's not going to actually go to
anyone, but there is somethingvery cathartic and healing about
actually getting it outabsolutely, absolutely.
Kirstin (37:14):
I read it.
Um, a few years later, before Ijust deleted the account, you
know, there was a part of methat was like oh, my god, how
embarrassing.
Yeah, thank god it was onlygoing to me, right.
Um, and then, yeah, there wasdefinitely a part that was like
wow, look how hard that was andwhere I am now.
It felt really good actually toread it.
(37:36):
Yes, the embarrassment wasthere, but at the same time, it
was like wow, I've donesomething pretty cool, which was
to get on the other side ofthis and be in good shape.
Sonya (37:47):
Yeah, I think a couple of things that come to mind for me
are having the belief that wecan do hard things.
Yes, they are hard, there's nodenying that they're hard, but
we have so much more capacity todo hard things than we give
ourselves credit for Amazing.
And the fact that you know whatwe get out of all of this in
(38:10):
the long run is so muchresilience, and that fact that
you know what we get out of allof this in the long run is so
much resilience, and thatresilience will then pay you
back tenfold when otherscenarios crop up in your life
that you have to face andchallenges and that sort of
thing.
So the way I'd like to kind ofwrap things up today is that the
one common thread that I kindof feel was um was evident
through all of those differentscenarios and situations that
(38:34):
we've talked about, is theimportance of support.
Kirstin (38:38):
Absolutely, which is why, if there's limited support
or not the right kind of supportwithin your family and
friendship groups and stuff, itis even trickier.
Most of us do have someone thatwe can be talking with this
about.
Maybe it needs the friendshipor relationship needs to be
taken to a deeper level toreally be able to get the
support that's needed.
It's a life experience where wecan also practice not doing it
(39:00):
all, not coping with it all onour own, and actually learning
how to reach out and acceptsupport, because women also
aren't particularly good at that.
Generally, we're the ones thatprovide it.
Sonya (39:11):
As you say, it's such a catch-22, isn't it?
Because we are so inherentlygood at giving the support.
So when somebody does reach outand ask, we fall over ourselves
most of the time to provide thesupport, but we are so
reluctant to ask for it in thefirst place.
Kirstin (39:27):
Yeah, that's truly, truly important for us to do and
will make a very big differenceon how women experience this
particular kind of ending of asignificant relationship,
regardless of how that occurs.
I think the other thing that I,if it's okay, would like to say
in winding up is it may or maynot feel like relief at the
(39:50):
beginning, you know that firststep where you're no longer in
that relationship, but it is andit will provide very much an
opportunity to create a lifethat aligns with that version,
the new version, the midlifeversion of you.
And you know, maybe if anyone'slistening and they're in the
(40:11):
thick of it right now and it'sall very, very awful they may
not appreciate that statement,Others might find it hopeful,
but either way, it is a reality,it is an opportunity.
We can really be intentional,intentional in how we live and,
you know, live our lives fromthat point forward without
needing to accommodate anywherenear as much another person like
(40:35):
a partner.
So that's the most of it, Iwould say.
Sonya (40:38):
I love that.
I think that's an awesome noteto wind everything up on.
Then, kirsten, thank you foryour time.
I'm going to link in the shownotes to all those places of
support that we talked about.
Obviously, I'll link through toyour own website and your
beautiful instagram account aswell, so that anybody that is
listening that finds that mightget some some support and solace
from just following you.
Kirstin (40:59):
they can get that as well thank you so much for
having me.
It's always so cool to have achat with you and, as I said,
really cool to listen to theguests that you have on in those
conversations.
So thanks.
Welcome to the Dear Menopause podcast.
I'm Sonia Lovell, your host Now.
I've been bringing youconversations with amazing
menopause experts for over twoyears now.
If you have missed any of thoseconversations, now's the time
to go back and listen, and youcan always share them with
anyone you think needs to hearthem.
This way, more people can findthese amazing conversations,
(00:25):
needs to hear them.
This way, more people can findthese amazing conversations.
Welcome to this week's episodeof Dear Menopause.
Today, I am super excited to bejoined by a return guest,
Kirstin Bouse.
Kirstin (00:35):
Kirstin, welcome to the show.
Thank you for having me.
It's amazing to be back and canI just add that I love your
podcast and it is the one like.
If I am asked what should Ilisten to to help me understand
menopause, Yours is absolutelythe first one that I provide
because of the breadth ofinformation you provide, so
(00:58):
you're doing an amazing job.
Sonya (01:00):
That's really lovely to hear.
I love getting that feedback.
Gosh, there's 120 plus episodesnow and all of them with such
different experts, differentconversations, so it's really
means the world to me that yourecommend it.
So thank you so much.
Kirstin (01:14):
All right.
Sonya (01:15):
For anyone that is new.
Why don't you tell us all alittle bit about who you are and
what it is that you do in thisworld of the menopausal
transition?
Kirstin (01:23):
Yeah, sure, so I have a very interesting career, but
out of the last nearly threedecades, the last 15 years have
especially been focused onworking with women through
transitions, and where thatbegan at the beginning of that
period of time was in theperinatal space.
And it's no surprises that asthey got old that I moved into
(01:45):
the perimenopause space.
So that is really where I'vebeen working now.
And you know, as a clinicalpsychologist, I'm working with
women who are finding theirmental health is being impacted
by the experience ofperimenopause.
But I also work with a lot ofwomen who wouldn't necessarily
kind of meet a diagnosis ofmenopausal depression or anxiety
or anything like that.
(02:05):
But I really, I guess navigatingwhat I like to call the
psychological tensions that seemto come up in this particular
developmental stage and I meanall of the work is just so like
I just so love it and I, youknow I just it really is my
happy place.
On top top of that, I alsoeducate and train within the
profession of psychology in thisarea.
(02:27):
I founded All About Her, whichis kind of a collective of
psychologists who really work inthe menopause space as well,
who make sure they're across thecutting edge information,
because now that we're at thisstage and the conversation's
been happening, there's a lothappening, isn't there?
There's so much more happening,we're just going to see some
cool changes ahead, and we'reall very committed to staying on
(02:51):
top of all of that.
So they're the things that Ispend my time doing and being a
part of, and, yes, I just feelsuper fortunate.
Sonya (03:00):
And we as women are super fortunate to have amazing
professionals and clinicianslike yourself in this space
helping.
So today we have a specifictopic that we've come together
to talk about.
You and I have kind of goneback and forth a little bit on
how we were going to frame thisconversation, but I think it's a
really important conversationthat I feel is being heard a lot
more in the public space, and Iwanted to bring in someone with
(03:23):
the expertise like yourself toreally unpack what it actually
looks like, what it actuallymeans, and that is the impact of
this transition throughperimenopause and menopause on
personal relationships, but veryspecifically, marriages and or
long-term relationships and thepotential for disruption and, in
(03:46):
many cases, an actual breakdownof that relationship.
Kirstin (03:50):
Yeah, yeah, look, I think we've known for quite some
time that this is a stage or anage, and therefore a stage of
life, where a lot of marriagesand de facto relationships do
break down, although I guess inprior generations it might have
been at that more into themenopausal, you know, in the
(04:12):
menopausal years, where thingswere really falling apart.
It does seem to look, when Ikind of look at the research, it
does seem to be happening morein the pre-menopausal stage and
I think there's some kind ofcultural factors in relation to
that.
Typically there's morefinancial freedom, not for
everyone, but for some.
There's certainly less tabooabout relationships ending.
(04:32):
I think.
Whereas previous generationsmight have waited for the kids
to be grown up, I thinkgenerations now are aware that
toxic relationships aren't greathouseholds to be raising
children in.
So yeah, I think there's abunch of factors that might have
brought that shift to themarriage breakdown happening
earlier.
But what we do know is that thevast majority of marriages and
(04:55):
de facto relationships that endduring this stage of life are
initiated by the women.
I think the stats said about70%, and that doesn't surprise
me.
And it doesn't surprise me fortwo reasons.
One is I see it a lot in thetherapy room and I have
throughout this, particularlythis last 15 years when I've
been working solely with womenand dedicated to transition work
(05:15):
, and secondly, it makescomplete sense to me from a
psychological perspective aswell.
So, yeah, I can understand whyit's starting to be talked about
more, because it's actuallybeen happening for a while.
Sonya (05:25):
So what I'd like to dive into that you just touched on
then is that it makes sense toyou from a psychological aspect.
Talk us through what you meanby that.
Kirstin (05:34):
Yeah, this is going to be a crude kind of
categorisation, shall we say,but I think there's two kind of
significant drivers that I cansee in this particular you, this
particular reality ofrelationships ending at this
time.
So the first one is the veryreal impact of symptoms and the
pressure it places women under.
They're struggling, they're notable to manage the gazillion
(05:58):
things that they used to manage.
It causes tensions inrelationships, conflicts in
relationships.
It can certainly impactintimacy in relationships, so
relationships can become evenmore kind of fractured than they
might've been, or the fracturesreally start showing, and so I
would kind of look at that asthe symptoms and experience of
(06:19):
perimenopause and the challengesthat that brings are having a
big impact on the relationship.
Then, on the flip side, I thinkand this is still kicked off by
this neuroendocrine event,perimenopause but then the flip
side of that, or the addition tothat, is that this is a stage
of life where the research andwe do need more, we need more
everywhere, don't we?
(06:40):
But the research, we need moreof what I mentioned before the
psychological tensions that Ijust see time and time again and
are scattered amongst theresearch that women are faced
with during this period of time,and those psychological
tensions are things like theshifts in their identity, their
shifts in their value systemsand in their ideology, shifts in
(07:01):
how they experience themselvessexually, and also and also this
increased drive for autonomyand to be really pursuing the
things that fulfill them, aboveand beyond the roles that they
play.
So I hear from a lot of women Ijust want to live from me, not
from my role as mom, my role asa wife or a partner.
(07:25):
I want to experience joy andpursue things that give me joy,
not just the things that my kidsdo, that you know I really
enjoy and are joyful, and thethings that I share with my
partner.
I want to pursue the thingsthat bring me joy and that light
me up and that interest me andengage me, that are just about
me.
And so from that perspective,particularly if you don't have a
(07:47):
partner who's able to supportthose things and, as a minimum,
support them, let alonehopefully possibly grow with you
, then that poses challenges andchallenges for relationships as
well.
Sonya (08:02):
Yeah, I can imagine that.
I know that I have experienceda shift in identity and, you
know, lack of people pleasingand a growth into almost a
different person, like I feellike I've significantly evolved
over the last eight years or soand I recently chatted with
(08:23):
neuroscientist Dr JenHacker-Pearson and we talked
about that neuroplasticity thatis going on during the
perimenopausal stage and that isa part of a reshaping and a
reforming who you actually areas a person into this second
half of your life and it's areally exciting time for many,
(08:43):
but it's a very confusing and, Iwould imagine, confronting time
for some as well, andparticularly if it's taking the
blinders off in things likerelationships where perhaps
there has been a level oftolerance or there has been a
level of you know, this is it,this is just where I am and this
is what I do, and that startsto shift when we start
(09:03):
questioning all of where we sitin that and what are we willing
to tolerate for the next half ofour life.
Kirstin (09:09):
Yeah, absolutely.
There's so many points that Iwant to pick up from what you've
said.
And you know, just as anexample, and I'm usually pretty
happy to share my story.
So I've been with my partnerfor seven years now and I truly
believe that he is in arelationship with a very
different person version of me,and I actually said that to him
(09:31):
the other day.
I said I really feel like you,you just, you just don't know
this this previous version of me, like I'm inherently the same
but at the same time, vastlydifferent.
And yeah, so that that's myexperience.
And I often say and I'mreasonably confident my
ex-husband won't be listening tothis podcast episode but I also
(09:53):
kind of reasonably confident.
I also can say that I don'tknow how we would have traveled
these years together, myex-husband and I, because and
I'm a little bit embarrassed toactually say this now because
I've moved so far from thisplace but I was known as a bit
of a yes, wife, just in terms oflike for me, I saw it as not
(10:15):
sweating the small stuff.
You know, it was just like, andthere's an element make it easy
yeah, I just that was me and nowI am far more comfortable with
not going with the flow, withnot speaking up none of that
self-silencing which I've beenkind of doing a fair amount of
research into lately and you canreally see the um.
(10:36):
The research shows the impactson women's physical health and
psychological health aroundself-silencing.
Like it's great to have itconfirmed.
It's a bit scary that it's areality and yeah, so I really
feel as though this is the stagewhere, as Jen says Jen's a
friend of mine and a colleagueas well that neuroplasticity
(10:57):
does create some vulnerabilityin us, for sure, but it also is
this significant opportunitywhere we are, our brains are
just changing and it how can,how can our brains change and
then not have us and how we arein the world and who we are in
the world and what we want inthe world change as well.
I mean, it's just kind ofcommon sense yeah, yeah, it is,
(11:19):
isn't it?
Sonya (11:20):
and um, I think from my perspective, I've seen it as
shifting my female friendships.
I'm still very happily marriedto the same person that I met
when I was 25.
So it's like 35 years and ithas not always been an easy
cruisy.
35 years.
Kirstin (11:37):
I'll be completely honest about that.
Sonya (11:38):
You know we've had our ups and downs, but we have, you
know, come through them all, andone of the things that you know
, I know, comes with that is abuilding of a beautiful
resilience, and my husband and Iquite often laugh about the
fact that we feel very much likewe're now married to different
people than we were when wemarried in our 20s you know it's
almost like having twomarriages, but we just married
(11:59):
the same person, Esther.
Kirstin (12:00):
Perel, the relationship guru, often says you know, I've
had multiple marriages, butI've only had one, you know.
Sonya (12:08):
And I think she nails it with that statement yeah, yeah,
and that is exactly how we feelwithin our marriage you know I'm
super lucky to have a partnerwho has been willing to grow and
evolve and support through allthe things that we've been
through, and we've done thatequally.
But I noticed a shift in myfemale French when that
definitely came from a place ofme.
I loved what you said beforeabout self-silencing and I think
(12:32):
I did that in my femalefriendships more so.
Kirstin (12:36):
It was important for me to find friends that I felt
like were long-term friends, butI did then realize that we'd
all grow in and move intodifferent directions and yeah,
so I noticed that same shift inmy relationships, but more from
a friendship perspective yeah,and I see that too, because
often we come into this stageand the friends that we're
bringing into this stage mighthave been the friends sometimes
(12:59):
from primary school, but, youknow, high school and uni and
careers and things, but alsofriendships that are formed when
in our mothering years and Ithink once, once our children
are at an age where they're, youknow, kind of independent, even
though some of them don't leavehome and stuff, and it's
probably not going to changeanytime soon, but there, you
(13:19):
know, it does free you up in somany ways and I think that also,
that kind of shift in in thecontext of your life and the
things that are going on in yourlife creates an extra sense of
freedom where it's like what doI still have in common because
your kids are going off anddoing their own things too.
So, yeah, it's a bit like, oh,even our kids are really moving
(13:43):
on from those friendships, theirown friendships at times, and
it just creates a reallydifferent scenario.
And I also find some of thefeedback that I get from clients
and I've got a few beautifulfaces in my head when I think
about this is that in theirfriendships they that they want
the conversations to change.
(14:05):
They want the conversations todeepen and be far more
nourishing in terms of who theyare and how they think about the
world and what's important tothem.
They do want to move from theconversations about the annoying
husband or partner or what arethe kids up to.
If their friends aren't able tomove into those kinds of deeper
(14:27):
conversations, it also starts tohave a sense of disconnection.
And the other thing that I heara lot from clients around this
same topic, I guess as well isthey often want a lot more alone
time too.
So their friendships and womenneed women.
I'm absolutely a big believerin that.
But we need, you know, we needjust a few women.
(14:49):
You don't need lots, but weneed a few really close women in
our lives Doesn't necessarilymean we need to see them all the
time, and I think perimenopauseand menopause is naturally
certainly in the early stages ofmenopause is naturally a time
where we often do want toretreat.
Menopause is naturally a timewhere we often do want to
retreat, and I guess sometimes Ihear that friendships can't
(15:09):
tolerate that space that'sneeded by one or some of them.
There's other people who takeit personally.
There's other people who maybearen't quite there yet.
Perhaps they also need thesupport systems from the
friendship group, and theretreating then feels like
somewhat of a rejection.
So those, I think, are thethings that shift in friendship,
female friendships, during thisperiod of time.
Sonya (15:29):
That's really interesting and I'm glad I'm not the only
one that's experienced that.
So, taking us back to the topicabout marriages and long-term
relationships and the shifts anddynamics that are happening in
those, for somebody that'ssitting there listening to us
having this conversation andthey're thinking, yeah, actually
that's how I've been feeling.
I'm that person that isactually questioning is this a
(15:53):
relationship I want to be in forthe next 30, 40 years?
You know where do I sit in this.
What do you recommend?
Somebody that is maybe one footin, one foot out, yep.
What are the tools that you canlean into to either work out
(16:16):
for yourself if you want to befully invested in the
relationship and therefore findways to move forward, or, on the
flip side, decide that actuallyno, this is no longer for me
and I want to decouple from thisrelationship now.
Kirstin (16:30):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's a hard place to be and I
actually think that that is areally common.
There's a lot of people in thatone foot in, one foot out
scenario because most of thetime if they're out, then they
start taking action and mightcome and see me, for example, to
just work out a goal and youknow all of that kind of jazz.
(16:55):
I think the first thing is forthem to really be understanding
themselves, you know, and whathas actually happened for them.
So there's a fair degree ofintersection.
That I'd be encouraging.
Like, how have you changed?
What is it about thisrelationship that isn't meeting
your needs and isn't kind offeeling fulfilling?
Was it always the case?
Because that's the other thing.
(17:15):
It always the case becausethat's the other thing?
I mean, if you've kind of beenhanging on for a while, um, then
you know, yeah, that's that'sone particular scenario.
If it's been more, if it is morecoinciding with this particular
stage of life, I would bereally curious, um about, or I'd
be suggesting to someone toexplore what is it that you're
wanting that you're not getting?
(17:36):
What is it that you're gettingthat you're not wanting?
But what is it that you'regetting that you're not wanting?
But I'd also be suggesting haveyou talked about this with your
partner?
It can take a while between thatintrospection and getting clear
on what's missing, and gettingclear on what you want and why
you don't think that what youwant is possible before the
conversation.
Jeez, it's a tricky conversation, but it's an important
conversation and it also isn'tjust one conversation, it's many
(18:01):
.
It'll be very difficult to hearand really confronting, and it
may not go so well the first fewtimes, but there will come a
point where I think you can makean assessment whether whether
your partner is going to be onboard in evolving in this
relationship, because theencouragement would also be for
them to evolve like what arethey not?
What would they like more of?
What they like less of?
(18:21):
How are they feeling inthemselves?
Are they fulfilled as peoplewithin themselves, let alone
within the relationship?
So I mean that's the idealright and at some point in the
conversations I think womenwould be able to determine
whether their partner isinterested.
But but even through theconversation it's actually only
reinforced.
It's going to happen or it's no.
(18:43):
I have lost that kind of loveand that desire to try and work
on this, or it will be okay,this might be possible.
Sonya (18:52):
And it might be.
I didn't know you were feelingthis way.
Oh my gosh, if I'd known.
Kirstin (18:57):
Or it might just be you are not capable of this
evolution, you're not capable ofsupporting me in mine and
you're not capable of anevolution as an individual, let
alone as a couple.
So I think they're the kinds ofloose questions to be tossing
around and mulling over.
But it definitely starts with areflective kind of position
(19:19):
about ourselves.
We have to know what it is,what's gone on for us that it's
now different very good adviceand, like you say, not something
to be entered into lately.
Sonya (19:30):
none of this is going to be easy, but if it does show you
where either there are areas togrow and evolve together or
there's obvious that you're notgoing to be able to, at least
then you can kind of removeyourself from that one foot in,
one foot out scenario.
Kirstin (19:47):
I do get lots of clients in that one foot
starting to see me in that exactscenario, and none of us like
living in the unknown.
I try and slow them down alittle bit on either way, like
slow them down from no, okay,I'm just going to stick with it,
and you know that's how it is.
So let alone you know I do slowthem down if it's like okay,
(20:09):
I'm going to move out or I'mgoing to say it's over or
whatever.
Either way, try and remain inthe area of possibility for
longer, which is reallydifficult, and I think that's
where support's needed.
And ideally support comes fromour, you know, close friends,
from our women, male friends,sometimes family, sometimes
(20:32):
professionals.
But we need support to be ableto stay in the unknown long
enough to work out what the nextright step actually is.
Sonya (20:41):
One of the topics that I wanted to raise with you and you
and I did chat about thisbeforehand we're not here to
dive into this topic too deepand that is that what we've
talked about so far is very muchthe assumption that somebody is
in a healthy enoughrelationship, that it's likely
that you can have thoseconversations, that you can come
(21:01):
to some type of mutualagreement.
It's going to be if you dodecide, you're both feet out
that leaving is actually goingto be an option.
Although not easy, it is stillan option that's on the table.
I think it's important torecognize that there are many
people that are in relationships, unfortunately, that aren't
(21:23):
that healthy.
And how does this conversationthat we are having now so much
more publicly around menopauseand in having that conversation
we are highlighting the symptomsand the areas where some women
are really struggling a bit withcognitive function and memory
and moods and lack of libido andthings like that For someone
that is perhaps in arelationship with that sort of
(21:45):
information can actually beweaponized and used against them
?
What, if any, advice?
Do you have someone in thatsituation?
Kirstin (21:53):
Yeah, I think that this is a really important
conversation to have, and surewe won't go deep because it's
very, very complicated,difficult stuff going on within
them.
You know their memory can goand find difficult work.
(22:29):
Their bandwidth is way less.
Therefore, their capacity toplease and placate, to settle
which is a massive role task forwomen in these kind of
scenarios they do a heck of alot of trying to really keep the
peace and that requires a heckof a lot of self-sacrifice,
self-silence and persuading, andyou know our capacity to do
(22:51):
that is compromised and theability to be gaslit, or the
vulnerability to be gaslit evenfurther, is increased in these
scenarios and in thesesituations.
And so I would like it to bevery much acknowledged that it
is an even more vulnerable timefor women in these situations
(23:15):
because they're less able tokeep themselves safe, as safe as
is possible whilst they're inthat scenario.
Leaving may be beyond theircapacity as well, because of all
those reasons that they don'thave even less confidence in
themselves.
They have even less ability tothink things through and plan
how they're going to go about it.
So I mean by this particularstage of life, if they've been
(23:37):
in that kind of relationship,you know, throughout and until
this stage, they already havelimited confidence.
Unfortunately, the gaslightinghas probably been reasonably
successful so that they don'tbelieve that they can manage on
it.
They don't believe they'reworthy of leaving.
They do believe that thesethings are their fault.
(23:59):
They can't even they've been sowell trained for want of a
better word to that.
They can't even rely on theirown perception of events in the
moment, let alone theirrecollection of them, and so,
yeah, they become morevulnerable and I think we just
need to understand how you goabout supporting yourself during
that period of time.
The ante is just that you'dstill be trying to access the
(24:21):
services that can support womenin these scenarios.
On the flip side, althoughstill extremely risky, is that
shift in just have no fucksanymore, I can't do this, I
don't want to do this anymore.
Which which sounds fabulousbecause it might be the
motivation for women to actuallyfinally leave, but it could
(24:44):
increase the confidence prior tofinding a safe way to leave and
a safe place to live.
So that inability, you knowthat irritability that we
experience, the shorter fuse,the less capacity for stress, to
manage stress, increases ourlikelihood that we'll say the
(25:05):
wrong thing.
We might be therefore moreinclined to actually say no when
for decades we've said yesbecause, very rightly well,
we've reduced the capacity andsecondly, we're also at the
stage where it's like a minute,so it can increase the risk for
women.
It's, it's tricky, reallytricky thank you.
Sonya (25:27):
I really wanted us to acknowledge that that situation
exists, unfortunately, sadly,heartbreakingly for women, and,
you know, not just women, forpeople that find themselves in
unhealthy relationships.
I think it's also important forpeople that are perhaps
supporting other people throughthose relationships as well, to
understand exactly what you saidthat this can actually be a
(25:50):
more vulnerable, more dangeroustime for them.
And perhaps if you do have afriend that you are seeing going
through this kind of strugglewithin her own relationship and
you have this burning desire tojust go come on, just get out of
there, like, seriously, you'vejust got to leave this, why are
you putting up with this?
Kirstin (26:06):
That that isn't necessarily actually going to be
the safest path for her to kindof just immediately throw
herself into, yeah, yeah, andthere's organizations though
that, and there's organisationsthough that can help women in
these scenarios and can help thepeople that care about them
navigate and plan for how to getout.
(26:27):
And often it's an interestingconcept because planning to get
out when the moment arises itcan be unexpected and unplanned
in that last moment, but theplanning still needs to be done
beforehand for this unknown daydate that they might have the
opportunity to do so, andideally then things are being
(26:48):
put in place for when thatopportunity unexpectedly arises.
But, yes, there's definitelyorganisations that can certainly
help with that and they are.
You know, they've just got somany resources and ideas and
linked with other communitygroups that can really help
people navigate that and, as Isaid, the people that help them.
Sonya (27:10):
Fantastic.
I will link through in the shownotes to some of those
organisations so that anybodythat is listening, that feels
that they may be beneficial tothem, can find them easily today
.
I hope that some of thoseorganizations are educating
themselves now that thistransitional time and the impact
that it does have on so manyaspects of a woman's life are
(27:32):
being included in theirupskilling and their education
programs and their ability toperhaps support women in this
particular transition a littlebit maybe, differently to how
they might support someonethat's a bit younger.
Kirstin (27:45):
Yeah, it is actually happening because I've been
asked to deliver two workshopsto a couple of organisations
here in Perth that do recognisethat and appreciate that that's
needed.
I'm a clinical and forensicstaff, as you know, so the early
part of my career, this worldis very familiar to me as well.
Yeah, from those years, thosedecades.
Sonya (28:06):
Thank you for going down to that little path with me.
I really appreciate it.
And moving then on to when youdo decide to, or you're capable
of, leaving a relationship andyou find yourself at this time
of life in a scenario where,suddenly, you are single for
potentially the first time in areally long time, what kind of
(28:29):
tools do you recommend then thatsomebody leans into?
Because I would imagine thatthat can be just as confronting
finding yourself suddenly alonein the world when you're used to
being in a partnership for sucha long time good or bad.
How does someone in thatsituation kind of find her feet?
Kirstin (28:46):
Yeah, I think it is a really unusual period of time
and I do remember that period oftime and I guess one of the
things that made a bigdifference for me is I had a lot
of support and I've had a meansof earning an income and I
think we can't overlook theprivilege that some of us have
and that others don't.
That's a really big difference.
And I know people don't want tohear this I certainly didn't,
(29:06):
but it's going to be hard.
It's going to be hard, it'sgoing to be difficult.
You might find that there'sthis initial experience of
relief like, oh, how cool is it?
You know, I don't have to cooka meal for someone else, or
maybe the kids are still movingbetween two houses.
Particularly, that scenario canbe like, oh, I've got my kids
this week and then oh, they'reoff and I've got all this time
(29:26):
to myself.
So there can actually be thishoneymoon period funnily enough,
that word you know for thisperiod of time when your friends
become single again and thenthe loneliness can step in.
And if you haven't had massivefinancial stresses in the early
stages of how do we manage, howdo I support myself financially
and sorting assets and things,at some point they're going to
(29:49):
arise.
At some point you're going tofind that you really miss having
someone that you can talk aboutevery day with, at the end of
the day, that you have a senseof being in it together.
Kids having a problem and,depending on the nature of the
relationship, post-breakup youmight feel still quite alone in
managing that.
Or your elderly parents havestuff going on and now you don't
(30:14):
have that person who you've.
Yes, you might have decidedit's not right for me to stay in
this relationship, but you missthe sense of team.
You miss the sense of I've gotsomeone to back me up here.
We're in it together.
I know that was a particularlyprofound shift for me.
I think as well.
Unfortunately, what seems tohappen is you lose friends from
(30:34):
the other side and all of thatkind of stuff.
It really just needs to beacknowledged as a period of
profound grief, whether it comesimmediately or whether it comes
a bit further down the track.
You can't escape it.
It's going to bite you on thebum at some point.
It it's really important toallow it to be there and it may
not be something that you say inthat period of time.
You know grief for a long, longtime.
(30:56):
We're all very, very differentwith how we experience these
things and the circumstancesthat we were in and we find
ourselves in.
But what I would certainly do isI'd be starting to use this as
an opportunity to really againclarify well, now I'm single,
because you've done the thinkingof who am I, what do I want?
Can I get it in thisrelationship or not?
(31:17):
No, okay, now I'm single, andso now we have to actually
revisit some of those questionswho am I as a single person?
What do I want as a singleperson, which is very different
to what do I want in my nextrelationship, and a lot of
people jump into that onestraight away.
I don't have rules around howlong you have to be single
(31:38):
before you start dating.
Whatever works for you.
But I certainly think there isa really important step in how
do I want my life to look as asingle person, so that, if and
when you do meet someone, you'rereally in that kind of steady,
solid place within yourself andyou've got a good sense of who
you are.
(31:58):
You've got a good life, you'vebuilt a good life as a single
person and they just complementit rather than finish, fill gaps
and stuff like that.
So, so I think that's reallyimportant.
I'm a big chaser of joy,because this is really the time
you often don't have to answerto someone about how you spend
your time, how you spend yourmoney, who you spend your time
(32:21):
with, all of that kind of stuff.
So it's like what is it that youcan bring into your life that
will help you grow, that willreally reinforce and reward this
decision that you've made,because you've made it to be
supportive and nourishing ofyourself.
You know, if you've decided toleave the relationship and I
(32:42):
guess that's the difference,because sometimes relationships
do end and you weren't the onethat ended it you know, if
you've decided to end thisrelationship, it's because you
want something more for yourself.
Now it's up to you to go andget it.
You don't have to rush out anddo a gazillion things, but it is
a really great time to thinkabout what was the one thing
that I often said to myself I'dlove I'll do that when I retire,
(33:04):
or do that when the kids arereally off my hands, or whatever
.
So'd start experimenting.
And I use that word reallyintentionally, because, again,
in the therapy room, what I findwomen can get hung up on is
they don't want to startsomething without knowing that
it's the thing that they'resupposed to be doing and that
they're going to like it and allthe rest.
(33:25):
And I'm like I get it.
And sometimes people know whatthey want to do and they're
quite confident enough they goand do it and it does give them
all the things they're hopingfor.
But that sense of getting itright can really paralyse people
.
But what if I don't like?
What if I sign up to a bookclub?
I think you might know I joinedBurlesque last year, at the
(33:48):
beginning of last year, in mychasing joy, 2024 year still,
I'm still doing it because Ilove it.
Um, but I could have said, oh,but I don't know if I like it,
so I'm not going to try, andthen I'd just never try it,
right, um?
So we need to be very flexibleand allow ourselves, give
ourselves the permission to tryand not like, try and pull out.
You know, try and stop, don'tfinish the term of whatever you
(34:10):
might have signed up for, andjust be really curious, curious
as to what brings you joy, whatnourishes your mind, your soul,
your heart, whatever.
That would definitely besomething that I would suggest
because it's very anchoring andin difficult times when we've
got other sources of joy thatcome into our lives relatively
regularly, it helps us.
(34:30):
It's the soft pillow we land onwhen life kind of pushes us
over again, rather than fallingon a very, very hard surface.
Sonya (34:40):
I love that thinking of it as the soft pillow that
you've got there to catch youwhen you do fall, and when we
all fall at different times.
Definitely I don't want tospend a whole heap of time on
this, but you did mentionsomething then that I think is
worth kind of having a littlebit of a conversation around
before we finish up, and that isthose that find themselves in a
situation where they didn'tchoose to end the relationship.
Kirstin (35:02):
Sometimes there's a sense of seeing it coming and,
having seen it coming, it's ashock that their partner might
actually have gone ahead anddone it, but the reasons why may
not be such a surprise andreflection.
And then there certainly can beoh my God, I definitely did not
see this coming.
And you know, I think in thosescenarios the process can be a
(35:24):
lot more intense and a lot moredifficult and there's a heck of
a lot more grief.
And usually the grief showsitself pretty quickly not
thoroughly comes down the track,when you feel, you know, you
feel like you're building a lifethat is, you know, something
that you have meaning in andfind fulfills you.
And things can take a while.
(35:44):
So, like any experience of grief, it really does take time.
And unfortunately, on top ofall of that is just all the
stuff to sort.
There's assets, there'sliabilities, there's kids, often
to have conversations withextended family even, um, you
know, there's just so much tonavigate.
I actually think it takes areally long time for all of the
(36:08):
bits to be sorted enough toactually be like okay, now I can
actually just focus on the, thehurt and the loss and the pain.
I mean that it's not likeyou're traveling okay, while
you're sorting all the stuffeither, but you really don't
have a lot of space to to bewith and work through lots and
lots of support.
I I think knowing who are inyour corner I think is really,
(36:31):
really important, and one of thethings that I did because I was
in that scenario, I didn't makethe choice was I set up an
email address which wasessentially to myself, like my
own email address.
And I wrote a lot of dearso-and-so emails of various
various flavours, particularlyevery time I wanted to um pick
up the phone and sell some stuffor send some messages or
(36:55):
something it's akin.
Sonya (36:57):
It's akin to, you know, writing in a journal and then
afterwards, yeah, exactly it is.
It's never meant to be seen,it's not going to actually go to
anyone, but there is somethingvery cathartic and healing about
actually getting it outabsolutely, absolutely.
Kirstin (37:14):
I read it.
Um, a few years later, before Ijust deleted the account, you
know, there was a part of methat was like oh, my god, how
embarrassing.
Yeah, thank god it was onlygoing to me, right.
Um, and then, yeah, there wasdefinitely a part that was like
wow, look how hard that was andwhere I am now.
It felt really good actually toread it.
(37:36):
Yes, the embarrassment wasthere, but at the same time, it
was like wow, I've donesomething pretty cool, which was
to get on the other side ofthis and be in good shape.
Sonya (37:47):
Yeah, I think a couple of things that come to mind for me
are having the belief that wecan do hard things.
Yes, they are hard, there's nodenying that they're hard, but
we have so much more capacity todo hard things than we give
ourselves credit for Amazing.
And the fact that you know whatwe get out of all of this in
(38:10):
the long run is so muchresilience, and that fact that
you know what we get out of allof this in the long run is so
much resilience, and thatresilience will then pay you
back tenfold when otherscenarios crop up in your life
that you have to face andchallenges and that sort of
thing.
So the way I'd like to kind ofwrap things up today is that the
one common thread that I kindof feel was um was evident
through all of those differentscenarios and situations that
(38:34):
we've talked about, is theimportance of support.
Kirstin (38:38):
Absolutely, which is why, if there's limited support
or not the right kind of supportwithin your family and
friendship groups and stuff, itis even trickier.
Most of us do have someone thatwe can be talking with this
about.
Maybe it needs the friendshipor relationship needs to be
taken to a deeper level toreally be able to get the
support that's needed.
It's a life experience where wecan also practice not doing it
(39:00):
all, not coping with it all onour own, and actually learning
how to reach out and acceptsupport, because women also
aren't particularly good at that.
Generally, we're the ones thatprovide it.
Sonya (39:11):
As you say, it's such a catch-22, isn't it?
Because we are so inherentlygood at giving the support.
So when somebody does reach outand ask, we fall over ourselves
most of the time to provide thesupport, but we are so
reluctant to ask for it in thefirst place.
Kirstin (39:27):
Yeah, that's truly, truly important for us to do and
will make a very big differenceon how women experience this
particular kind of ending of asignificant relationship,
regardless of how that occurs.
I think the other thing that I,if it's okay, would like to say
in winding up is it may or maynot feel like relief at the
(39:50):
beginning, you know that firststep where you're no longer in
that relationship, but it is andit will provide very much an
opportunity to create a lifethat aligns with that version,
the new version, the midlifeversion of you.
And you know, maybe if anyone'slistening and they're in the
(40:11):
thick of it right now and it'sall very, very awful they may
not appreciate that statement,Others might find it hopeful,
but either way, it is a reality,it is an opportunity.
We can really be intentional,intentional in how we live and,
you know, live our lives fromthat point forward without
needing to accommodate anywherenear as much another person like
(40:35):
a partner.
So that's the most of it, Iwould say.
Sonya (40:38):
I love that.
I think that's an awesome noteto wind everything up on.
Then, kirsten, thank you foryour time.
I'm going to link in the shownotes to all those places of
support that we talked about.
Obviously, I'll link through toyour own website and your
beautiful instagram account aswell, so that anybody that is
listening that finds that mightget some some support and solace
from just following you.
Kirstin (40:59):
they can get that as well thank you so much for
having me.
It's always so cool to have achat with you and, as I said,
really cool to listen to theguests that you have on in those
conversations.
So thanks.
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