Season 1 Episode 7: Death is Nothing to Fear

Thanks for joining Hospice Nurse Penny and Halley (Hospice Social Worker) on the journey to #NormalizeDeath! Julie McFadden, BSN, RN has been a nurse for 15 years.  Julie is an experienced ICU, and now Hospice/Palliative Nurse. Julie has been featured in Newsweek, USA today, The Atlantic, and several other articles worldwide. Julie has been passionate about normalizing death through education to the masses using social media and her new book is out now (June 2024), titled Nothing To Fear. Her TikTok has 1.4M followers, and you can find her on all social media platforms (Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube) at Hospice Nurse Julie. You can find her on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube. Socials: Website: https://www.hospicenursejulie.com/book YouTube: https://youtube.com/@hospicenursejulie?si=AwrIGHxEq-mA68Lc Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@hospicenursejulie?_t=8fzucrdBPWE&_r=1 Instagram: https://instagram.com/hospicenursejulie?igshid=OGQ5ZDc2ODk2ZA== Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100077937666311&mibextid=LQQJ4d You can reach the insiders at [e-mail], on all places you find podcasts are found. A video option can be found on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@DeathHappensInsiders Hospice Nurse Penny on the socials: @HospiceNursePenny Halley on Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook: @HospiceHalley Our intro music was composed by Jamie Hill (misfitstars.com)

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
- We are not talking about whatis actually happening here.
Mm-Hmm. . What?
We're gonna get this man wellenough so he can have surgery
so he can get hisfingers and toes cut off,
because those are necrotic now.
And that's gonna cause asystemic infection. Mm-Hmm.
, once we getthat done, then he's gonna go
to the floor floor, thenhe's gonna start treatment

(00:21):
for pancreatic cancer.
Then what are we doing?Yeah. What are we doing?
I get chills thinkingabout it because I ca
and then I thought, andhis husband has no idea.
Yeah. People don't know.We think people understand.
He doesn't understand. Sofinally one day I was scared,
but I just spoke up andsaid, I think we need
to have a family meeting about,
I can't remember my exact words,

(00:41):
but it was something about the future
and what's going to happen
and the care plan from here on out.
I think we need to have a family meeting
about what's really happening.
And like, everyone theresuddenly was like, yes. Yes.
And like the people wereclicking and ordering stuff
and I was like, oh my God.
They all thought the same thing.
And just no one said anything.
- Nobody said anything. Well,- No one said anything.

(01:09):
- Welcome to the Death Happens podcast,
an insider's Guide to Dying.
We're your insiders.I'm Hospice Nurse Penny.
- And I'm Halle Hospice social worker.
Today we have anotherhospice nurse with us.
We're going to have hospicenurse Julie, on the podcast.
But before we get to her,
I know Penny has a hot topic for us.

(01:30):
- Yeah. So something hot that'sbeen going on social media
and, and it may notsound like it's related
to death and dying, but it is.
And I'll tie it in and you'll see how,
but Elise Myers, who isvery famous on social media,
she is a comedian, has left and
- Left the sweetest possible human
- Being and the sweetest,nicest person ever.
Yes. Yeah. She is left TikTok.

(01:53):
And she left a note saying
that she was taking a break from TikTok
after she had been bullied for not
speaking on what's going on in Palestine.
Mm-Hmm. . Uh,and this has become a trend
lately where big creatorsare being targeted
for not speaking out on Palestine.
And there is actually a creator on TikTok.

(02:15):
And her sole purpose forbeing on TikTok is to
find a big creator, target them,and then get her followers.
And she's got 40 or50,000 followers to bully
that person if they arenot speaking out on Gaza.
So how this relates tohospice is that this recently

(02:37):
happened to me and a coupleother hospice nurse creators,
where somebody with avery large platform came
after us and said that we areexperts in death and dying,
and therefore we should be obligated
to speak out on what'shappening over there.
Now, I really didn't getinto it with this person.

(02:57):
First of all, I wanna sayhe and I were mutuals.
I really enjoyed his content.
He has 2.2 million followers on TikTok.
He's got half a millionfollowers on Instagram.
However, those are notthe platforms he's using
to talk about what's happening over there.
It's almost like he doesn'twanna risk his platform
because he knows he's got followers

(03:19):
who are gonna disagree with him.
And so he doesn't wannarisk those big platforms.
So he created another platform
that has only about lessthan 10,000 followers,
but that's the one heused to call us out on.
Mm-Hmm. . Sothe thing is, I am an expert
when it comes to natural death and dying.
Yeah. I'm not an expert whenit comes to death by trauma.

(03:43):
Especially not by traumacaused during a war.
I I have no idea. Mm-Hmm. what?
That's, I'm just as naiveabout it as anybody else.
And it's so interesting to methat there are these people
who just think that
because we have bigfollowings, we are obligated

(04:05):
to talk about these things.
- It's absurd to me thatsocial media creators are being
obligated to talk about anything
when the news channels aren't doing it
- Right.
- Or they're covering it ina certain way or whatever.
Like, I just don't understand it.
Like if, if you, I get, ifthey're talking about things

(04:26):
that are negative to human beings
and you know, calling them in
and saying, Hey, maybedon't talk like that.
Or I'm just thinking about like Dylan
and the whole Bud Light scandalthat happened back whenever.
Right. And like, people speakingout negatively, then Yeah.
Call them in, call them out for that.
But speaking out about things
that you're not a hundred percent sure of

(04:48):
or that's not your expertise or whatnot.
I just, I don't understand.
I'm so grateful that I'm not a big
creator at this moment.
- Yet.
- .- Well, so, so another, a big creator,
Scott D. Henry, very bigcreator, recently posted a video
because he had also been targeted
and pretty much said moviestars or famous singers
or sports figures come out politically

(05:11):
and say something, state their opinions.
Like Taylor Swift, peopletell 'em to shut up.
It's not their place. And yetthey'll come onto social media
and tell social mediainfluencers that we need
to talk about these things.
When he pointed out that manyof those who are bullying,
the bigger creators have small accounts.
Mm-Hmm. . And they think that

(05:31):
by putting a watermelon intheir profile, that somehow
that's gonna change everything.
Like, that's gonna, which
- By the way, what even isa watermelon? I don't know.
- I I think it's the colors of the flag.
Oh, in Palestine, how are
- People even supposed to, this is
what drives me insane about social media.
Yeah. Things happen sofricking fast. Yeah.

(05:52):
How does anybody keep up?
And if you're not constantly scrolling
to know what the hell's going on.
- Right. I mean Right.
And to Scott's point, he actually did post
videos that were taken down.
'cause they had some graphicpictures of children over there
that had been attacked in Gaza.
If you are not following a person
and going to their page every day
and looking at their videos Mm-Hmm.

(06:14):
, you're not gonna see
everything that they've posted.
Yeah. So you don't even know.
So some of these people aregoing after these creators
and saying, you should bespoken about Palestine.
And the creators are like, I did.
You didn't see that videobecause I did speak about it. So.
Right. And for me, the creator that came
after me said, I know
that you've spoken outabout trans rights before,

(06:36):
and so I'm so disappointed thatyou won't speak out on this.
And I know about trans rights.It's a little different.
It's a totally different topic.
I I know that the MiddleEast has been in discord for,
I don't know, centuries maybe like this
goes back way back, right.
Mm-Hmm. That this has been going on.
And, and I am not an expert inwhat is happening over there.

(06:59):
And I will say this, I think it's horrible
when people are killed.
I, children, women,men, civilians, animals.
I, I think war is a horrible thing.
Uh, I hate that it's happening,
but I personally can't control it.
I, I don't own it. I can't control it.

(07:20):
I can do what I can do. Mm-Hmm.
I can and have, donate moneyto Doctors Without Borders.
Mm-Hmm. .Um, I can boost the videos
that I see, but I'm notgonna speak about something
that I really don't feel
I have the expertise to speak on.
- Irony is just havingheard a whole year's worth

(07:42):
or more of people of color,black creators global majority
speaking out and saying, Hey, when,
when we're telling our story,we're giving information,
then it's important for youas the non-global majority
to listen and not speak.
- Right, right. And
- So it's the opposite ofwhat we just went through.

(08:02):
Learning . Yeah, exactly. Of
trying to be more understanding. And Yes.
- And here's the otherthing that I've noticed.
When the war hap started in u the Ukraine,
I did post one video about that,
just basically speaking aboutthe fact that I am Ukrainian
and that it's a terrible thingthat's happening over there.
And that was just basically,it's supporting. Right.

(08:23):
That's still happening
- Two years later. Nobody's
- Talking, talking about it.Nobody's talking about that.
- Let's not talk about how
that also literally affectsour security in the world.
- Yes. Yeah.- But that's just, oh,
well it's five minutesago, so forget it. Exactly.
- Yeah. Where's thatbig dick energy there?
You want me to speak about Gaza?

(08:45):
Why aren't you talking about,
not only are you nottalking about Gaza yourself.
Yeah. Or you're doing it on a tiny little
platform and not your big one.
But you're not talkingabout Ukraine. Yeah.
That's horrible too. Yeah. And
- Gaza and Israel is sucha nuanced conversation
and people don't wannahave nuanced conversation.
They wanna have black and white. Right.
And that's not how it works. Right.
You can be supportive ofIsrael and the hostages

(09:07):
and also, hey, what Netanyahu's doing
and how the people ofGaza are suffering. The
- Two things can beright at the same time.
Two things can be wrongat the same time. Yeah.
And also sometimespeople go on social media
because they wanna getaway from the reality
of what's on the news every day.
- Yes.- And they don't wanna tune in
and see Elise Meyers talkingabout a dark subject.

(09:32):
They wanna see her talkingabout something fun and funny
because we need that comic relief.
- Also, I'm a hospicenurse. That's what we found.
For, for That's the,that's the thing. Exactly.
We went to Elise Meyers
because she was giving us a hilarious
story about a taco date. Yes. All of
- Us know- That story.
- Right, right. And I'm a hospice nurse
and people that come to myplatform for the content

(09:54):
that they know I post,yes. Hospice, death,
- Dying. Absolutely
- The best point.
Dark humor, sober journey,
living in my off-gridkit, whatever, .
They're not coming hereto hear me talk about
something that I don't know shit about.
- Absolutely. That's the bestpoint of all of it, I think.
- Yeah. All right. Alright,
- Well let's shake that off

(10:14):
'cause we're gonna talk to Julie .
- We are gonna talk to mybestie hospice. That's is Julie.
Let's do it.
- Welcome, Julie. We'reso happy to have you.
- Hi. Hi ladies. my favorite. Ladies,
- I'm so glad to finallymeet you on this video.
I know you've known Pennyfor a while, so Mm. Yeah.

(10:37):
Uh, maybe just first start off
by telling us a little bit about yourself.
- Well, I was born on acold November day .
Just kidding. In 1982. No.
So my name is Julie McFadden.
I've been a nurse for 16 years.
I started doing social media stuff.
It'll be three years this May.

(10:59):
So around now it'll be three years
where I've taken the alias ashospice nurse Julie
and educating the generalpublic like yourself
and Penny about death and dying.
And there's so much more about me.
But that's the internet gist.
That's the hospicenurse. Julie gist. Yeah.
- Well, and I know you'vegot a book coming out.

(11:20):
We'll talk about that in a little bit.
But first I would love tojust chat about, I know you
and Penny are BFFs.
Mm-Hmm. , how did you two get
to actually meet in person?
- I know, it's so funny, penny.
'cause I'm like, I want,I'm like, penny, go ahead.
But , you're supposedto be interviewing me.
We, penny and I met one of thefirst days I got on TikTok.

(11:40):
I like reached out to her being like, Hey,
this is all new to me.
What should I do? Uh, Ifollowed you right away, penny.
Then I saw that you were soberand I said I was sober too.
And I remember you followed me right back.
And I dunno,
when we started doing like all the
voice notes back and forth,
- It was almost immediately.

(12:01):
Yeah. It was like, it waswithin the, the first couple
of days after you reached out and
- We started, we startedgoing back and forth.
Yeah. And now Penny and Ihonestly talk every single day.
- We do about,- About all types of shit.
And then we finally met, oh my God,
was it two years ago now? Uh,
- Yeah.
I think it was two years agofor Amanda's funeral. We, we

(12:22):
- Did some, yeah.
Amanda's funeral. Therewas a young lady on, uh,
that we raised moneyfor on TikTok, Amanda,
who's dying of breast cancer.
And when she died, penny
and I both went to likeher celebration of life.
And that's when Penny andI met for the first time
in real life.
- IRL- Since in IRL. Yeah.
We've met again since I'vebeen to her cabin in the woods.

(12:43):
I've met Randy and Pam. Her cat.
- Not yet Kevin. No.
- Huh? It's not Kevinthough. I haven't met
- Kevin. Not Kevin.
- No. Soon enough. Soon enough.
- . Yeah. And we did our retreat.
We hosted a retreat. Oh
- God. That's right. We
- Had a North Carolina together.
Yeah. Yeah.
- I met her daughter.That's right. Thank you.
- We almost killed each othermaking a video. We almost

(13:06):
- Together almost killed each other.
That was the, that wasn't bad. We also,
- My knee is finally better.
- Oh- My gosh. That was la That was a year
ago when we did that.
Yeah. We act like we're 20when we get together. We
- Did that with no, withjust caution to the wind.
We didn't even think No
- Safety awareness twice- About it.
We didn't even think twice about it.

(13:27):
- What were you doing? I musthave missed one. She missed
- .
Well that's what I mean. It's
crazy if you actually see the video.
She is Wait, I wasstanding up, right? Mm-Hmm.
. I wasstanding up, she had her legs
wrapped around me.
I think . And thenI went to go flip you up.
- Yeah. From back I had was backward.
We're like back to back weren't we?

(13:49):
- I think girl, I can't remember now. I
- Remember that hard.
All I know. You'retrying to make a heart. I
- Literal. Yeah, I, that was
- Trying another one. Oh,
- That's right.
You had your legs wrapped around my waist
and then I was gonna lean backand you were gonna flip up
and be like, but us something.
And then I used all my fucking force and
- Just, and I weigh a ton- And we both flipped.
- Oh my gosh.- And we could have,

(14:11):
I have this huge glass tablein the middle of my living room
that we seriously couldhave been seriously
injured on .
Anyway, my whole, the whole point is
that like afterwards we were like,
what the hell were we thinking?
- Hospice nurse antics,- . Yeah. Well
- It just goes to,- It's about quality of life, not
- Quality.
That's right. .

(14:31):
- Because you're rememberingto live. Right. That's
- Right.
- That's right. My knee wasfucked up for a long time.
I was know. And your neckgot messed up too. Mm-Hmm.
. Yeah. Wewere hurting for sure.
Oh my goodness. In fact, thelast time we got together,
like every time we're gonnaget together we start sending
each other videos of Oh,
we should do this, we should do this.
And last time we just, itwas un it was like unspoken.

(14:53):
We just laid on the couch and watched TV
and we didn't even talkabout making a video.
Like we had plans.
But I think in the back ofour minds, we're looking at
that glass table going,yeah, I don't think
- So.
Let's just pass this time. I love that.
I feel like Penny even less and less now.
Like even our like phone conversations
and our voice notes are less
and less really about social media.
Like we do. We'll stillhave like bitch sessions

(15:16):
about what's going on.
The algorithm. Our, yeah,
our like friendship has morphedinto something else now.
Yeah. While we're justlike talking about our life
and which has been really cool.
Not that I still wanna do
tiktoks and stuff, but you're right.
It's, I feel like we alsocan just sit on the couch
and watch TV and be onsocial media together
and yeah. It's cool.
- When you mentioned TikTok,I'm assuming that with

(15:36):
that timeframe, COVID was an instigator.
- When I did TikTok, itreally wasn't for me.
I didn't get on until like later 2021.
I think Covid wasdefinitely still going on,
but it wasn't like in the thick of it.
It happened for me
because I finally got togo home to see my family.
That's so, it must've beenlike opening up a bit. Mm.

(15:58):
And it was like perfect timing.
I had a couple friendswhose parents were dying
and they were calling me alot about what to expect.
And I was just rattling off the things.
I always rattle off to everybody .
And they were like, oh my God,
I can't believe you know this stuff.
Like why don't you, why have I,
why am I just now hearingthis stuff from you?
Like, how'd I not knowthat you like knew stuff

(16:19):
like this .
And it's funny
'cause in my real life, if yousay you're a hospice nurse,
most of my friends are .
They don't need to hear about it.
So they were, so this friendof mine was encouraging me
to tell people about the things I knew.
And then I went home and I saw my
nieces who are like tweens.
They're teenagers now. Butum, and they were on TikTok.

(16:41):
So I got on TikTok to watch dances
and like do things with themand see the different trends.
Mm. And then that's when I waslike seeing other people my
age using TikTok in another way
that I didn't realizecould be done like Kelly.
And that's where, yeah,that's where it was like born.
Like I remember seeinglike someone gardening
and someone like talking about space

(17:03):
and like biology and stuff.
And I was like, oh I could,
maybe I should talk about death and dang.
And then I did and then itwent, it took off pretty quick.
So it was like easy to keep up
because it happened right away.
- Nice.- Which was nice. Yeah.
Probably wouldn't have done otherwise.
- You're clearly, you're a nurse.
That's what you'reknown for. That's right.

(17:23):
Uh, how did you get intonursing and why hospice?
- I got into nursing because I was 23
and, sorry, I'm like messing around here.
I got into nursing because I was,
I had a degree in psychology
and I was working on a mental health unit
and a woman had fallen
and cracked her head openright in front of me.
And instead of helping her,

(17:45):
I almost became the second patient.
I was like, I couldn't,I didn't help her at all.
Like I did not go down and help her.
I ran away and I got the nurses.
And even with the nurses, Iwas having a hard time talking.
There's a woman, she fell, she's bleeding.
I couldn't even say all that. They had
to sit me down and belike, what's happening?
What's going on? And Iremember thinking like,

(18:05):
I cannot believe these peoplelike ran to to this girl.
And the girl ended up being okay,
but it was a really serious fall.
She ended up getting18 stitches in her head
and it was like horrific.
But I remember thinkinglike, that's amazing
that they could run toher and know what to do.
So that was like my first little inkling
of like, I might wanna be a nurse.
And then my best friendwas in nursing school,
like in this accelerated program

(18:26):
where you can get your fouryear degree really quickly.
And I had already donethe four year thing,
so I was like, I'm not doing that again.
No way . So Ijust did what she did,
the program she did justa year and a half later.
And once I started nursing school,
I was like obsessed with it.
I loved it. I didn't realizehow much I loved biology
and physiology andpathology, pathophysiology
and anatomy, all thethings that you learn.

(18:48):
I loved it. So that got me onto nursing.
And then I was an ICU nurse
for many years in Baltimore, Maryland.
And being an ICU nurse is
what made me reallywanna be a hospice nurse.
And then just one day I tookthe leap and just did it.
- Tell us the story about the ICU patient.
- Oh yeah. The ICU patient.I love him so much.

(19:09):
In my book, I call him Scott,which is my dad's name.
. But yeah, I hadone, I had two ICU patients
that I can really think of thatreally made me switch over.
But I always use this one example
and I, we'll call him Scott.
He was a young guy who camein to have a Whipple procedure
for pancreatic cancer.
And for people that, dunno,what's a Whipple procedure?

(19:31):
Whipple procedure is,
I can't really describethe actual surgery.
I probably could haveat one time in my life.
But basically only a certain population
of pancreatic cancerpatients would qualify
for a Whipple procedure,which reroutes things
and like basically helps you live longer
with pancreatic cancer.
But it's a very, I think they
- Tie off part of,
- They tie off parts andput other parts together.

(19:51):
Um, again, this is so sad.
At one point I could haverattled that off for you now.
I couldn't, when you,
- We don't need a- Lot of information has gone.
But yeah, it's, it's abig, it's a big procedure.
Anyone, at least back in that day,
anyone getting theWhipple procedure would go
to the ICU after the surgery.
And this specific surgeryhelps you live longer

(20:12):
with pancreatic cancer, butmany people can't get it.
You have to meet a bunch ofdifferent criteria to be able
to even get the Whipple procedure.
So it was very common forpatients to get this done.
And they're in the ICU three to five days
and then they go to the floor
and then there's of course recovery there.
And then they start theirjourney with chemoradiation.
All the things stillwith pancreatic cancer.
'cause at the, at the end of the day,

(20:33):
pancreatic cancer isterminal for the most part.
Even if you get the Whipple Mm-Hmm.
it stillmay extend your life,
but you will likely die from that disease.
But this patient, Scottcame in very typical.
He was young and very typical.
Did a good five days in the ICU.
Did well, went to the floor,ended up coding on the floor
because of bilateral pulmonary embolisms.

(20:55):
So probably would'vekilled him if he was home.
But he survived 'causehe was in the hospital.
They re they resuscitatedhim, they intubated him,
put him on a breathing machine, a bunch
of IV blood pressure medication
to keep his blood pressureup, his heart pumping.
All the things, broughthim back down to us.
And because I was his nurseprior, they gave him to me.
And then our unit, which was great, liked
to keep the same nurseswith the same patients,

(21:16):
especially if they're therefor long periods of time.
Hmm. And just to like makethe story shorter, he had
that one complication andactually started getting better.
We did, we would gethim better almost enough
to get him extubatedand go into the floor.
And then something would happenagain over and over again.
Some kind of infection,aspiration, pneumonia,

(21:36):
another blood clot somewhere.
Like something would happenjust over and over again.
And his husband was there dayin and day out constantly.
And his husband was so sweet,so anxious, so nervous.
And I felt like I really knew Scott
because Scott wasn't always intubated
and sedated those five dayswhen he, when we were walking
around getting him outof the ICU, he was so fun

(21:57):
and so happy and like readyto start this journey.
Positive. And you wouldsee like little glimmers of
that even through beingintubated and sedated.
He would like, 'cause you have
to do like sedation vacations sometimes
and try to wake him up to seeif they can get off the vents.
And he would put his thumbup and he's just so amazing.
This went on for probably six months. Wow.

(22:18):
Six months in the ICU. That'sbrutal. Wow. You get wounds.
You get wounds no matterwhat you, you can get,
he got c diff so there was just
so many things going on histoes and fingers turned black.
Totally necrotic.
And that happens for anyone listening
because the, the vassodepressants you keep people on
to keep their blood pressure up,
which is helping them live what?

(22:40):
Right. Also constrictsyour vessel so much that,
that you don't get bloodflow to your fingertips.
'cause those vessels are too small.
So fingers and toes black
and not waking up, justgetting worse and worse.
Now he has wounds. He hada thing of c diff like
all c diff is if anyone listening,
you will just have a completediarrhea all the time.

(23:00):
So then you get wounds'cause you're in bed.
It was just horrific. Right.
And after so long I was like,
we are not talking about whatis actually happening here.
Mm-Hmm. . What?
We're gonna get this man wellenough so he can have surgery
so he can get hisfingers and toes cut off.
Because those are necrotic now.
And that's gonna cause asystemic infection. Mm-Hmm.

(23:23):
. Once we get that done,
then he's gonna go to the floor.
Then he's gonna start treatmentfor pancreatic cancer.
Then what are we doing?Yeah. What are we doing?
I get chills thinkingabout it because I care.
And then I thought, and hishusband has no idea. Yeah.
People don't know. Wethink people understand.
He doesn't understand.He doesn't understand.

(23:44):
So I, I remember one day in rounds,
I was still a new nurse,probably two years in.
And this was an intimidatinghospital. It was Johns Hopkins.
They weren't doing anything wrong.
This is just what happened there. Right.
This is just what we did. But it was, I
- Mean, it's really common that,
that doctors aren't talking about.
They're only talking about treatment.
They're not talking aboutthe switch to end of life.
- Yes. Right. And then there,it's, there's the attending,

(24:06):
there's the fellow, there's the residents,
there's the med students,there's the nurse.
So all of us are in this round,which go from room to room.
So finally one day I wasscared, but I just spoke up
and said, I think we need tohave a family meeting about,
I can't remember my exact word,
but it was something about the future
and what's going to happen
and the care plan from hereon out, I think we need
to have a family meetingabout what's really happening.

(24:27):
Something like that. And like everyone
there suddenly was like, yes.
Yes. And like the people wereclicking and ordering stuff
and I was like, oh my God.
They all thought the same thing.
And just no one said anything. Nobody said
- Anything. Well,
- No one said anything.
And then we had, andthe, the hard part was,
'cause I had just, I hadnever done that before.
The hard part was it happenedthat day, you guys. Wow.

(24:50):
It was like great socialworker, chaplain, doctors.
Me, the nurse, the fa likeeveryone got together that day.
And I was, wait, thisis like going too quick.
I didn't realize we weregonna do this so quickly.
- .- I didn't say that. Of course.
I was like, okay, you thinkthis is good. Just do it Julie.
So we were honest with his husband.
And of course that day hishusband was like, oh my god,

(25:12):
no, you wouldn't wanna live like this.
No, we need to, we needto turn off the machine.
If you're telling mehe's not gonna make it.
Like I don't want himliving like this. Yeah.
And he died that night.
Like he died by the end ofmy shift you guys. Wow. Wow.
Which is okay. That'sthe better outcome. Yeah.
But I was like, even 'causeit was the first time doing it

(25:34):
and it basically felt likeit happened because of me.
Which is okay. Mm-Hmm. .
That's the, that's, but itstill was like, damn, okay.
I spoke up and he's dead. Yeah.
It's like the, my initialthought when I went home
and I was like crying.
But I also knew my voicemattered in that moment.

(25:55):
And I also knew we did the right thing.
And that started me downthe journey of like,
I got more courage to start speaking up
with different ICU patients again.
And then finally I waslike, we're gonna die.
People are gonna die. Like
we should be doing something else.
Like we should have beentalking to this family
long before we did.
Yeah. And they should be not in

(26:17):
a hospital and they should not.
And we just need to be,they should be home.
So that's how I started.I was very long-winded
- Story.
How? No, I'm not surprisedthat you didn't stay in the ICU
to be more of an advocate by that story.
- Well, there are other reasons too.
I mean, it was like secretlykilling me. It really was.
I really hated nursing.Like I hated nursing.

(26:37):
I thought I made the wrongchoice. I hated doing it.
I had compassion fatigue. Icouldn't hurry up and care. Hmm.
My personality did notwork well with the ICU.
I was too high strung.Like it was just awful.
I hated nursing in the ICU. I hated
- It.
You did it for a longtime though, didn't you?
- I did. And I drank a lot. .

(26:57):
- You drank, right? I'm
- An alcoholic.
I'm a, I'm an alcoholic
so I probably would'vebeen drinking a lot anyway.
But like, I definitelyused alcohol to cope, like
for sure off of like, I wouldleave and start drinking.
- Are you still seeing patients now?
Are you active in hospice?
- I do still see patients.
I only have to technicallywork four days a month.
So some days, some monthsdepending on what's going on.

(27:18):
I'll only work those four days.
And then sometimes I, I wanna try
to start working at leasttwo days a week or something
because for my ownmental health, honestly.
Mm-Hmm. itreally actually helps me
to have a structure.
And I actually like myjob. Like I really like it.
So it's hard to self-motivatesometimes when, you know,
you don't technicallyhave to do it .

(27:40):
- Right. - But I always doso much better when I do it.
But this month in particular, just
because I've been busy, I'm,
I'm working the lastfour days of this month.
And then starting in April I'm gonna try
to work two days a week.
- Nice.- And then the other few
days do social media stuff.
- Yeah. Well we're asking all
of our clinicians in the field.
What is your favorite deathexperience if you have one?

(28:03):
- Oh my god. I have so many .
I have so many favorite death experiences.
They're all been really amazing.You can say more than one.
Think the one that alwaysstands out. What'd you say? You
- Can say more than one. .
- Yeah. I sit there for20 minutes, be like,
and then there was this oneguy, the one that sticks out.
I don't know. There are seriously so many.
But the one that reallysticks out, that's,

(28:23):
oh God, there's that one too.
No, I'll do this one. The onethat sticks out is very brief.
It was a family I didn't reallyknow. I saw them like twice.
But the husband changed like on a dime.
He was at my visit. Like I hadsaw him before. I liked him.
He was super funny andfun and his wife was funny

(28:43):
and fun and the kids were there.
It was just a really funfamily, you could tell.
And he was not actively dying.
He wasn't even transitioning, I would say.
He was like didn't, heseemed close to death.
Like maybe a few weeks, but not,
not really even transitioning.
The first time I saw him andthe second time I saw him I was
thinking maybe he's gettingtowards a transitioning phase
'cause he's sleeping more and in bed
and the things that theywere telling me and stuff.

(29:05):
But he was still there withhis wife and his children.
And they were all laughingand talking as I was going on.
I did, did my full assessment.Everything looked okay.
And then all of a suddenhe changed on a dime.
He changed on a dime andwas like actively dying.
I don't know what, Idon't know what happened.
'cause he wasn't like that.
And nothing really seemed tohave happened except for all

(29:25):
of a sudden he did that death stare
and like never really came back.
Because that ever happenedto you guys or like
- Someone I have I, yeah,I, as soon as you said that,
I immediately have the image of my patient.
Same thing. Although he, so he had been,
I'd been seeing him pretty often
because I felt like he was transitioning

(29:45):
and the day that I wentto see him, he was alert,
but he was somnolence.
Mm-Hmm. .And, but same thing.
Like all of a sudden he just changed.
And I told the family, I think
he's got minutes left.
Yeah. He looks very close to the end.
And, and he did die during my visit.

(30:07):
It, it was just like that.Yeah. I'm done. I'm out. Yeah.
- , that's howit was with this guy.
He was not som 'cause thathe was still like laughing
and talking, but definitely in bed
and definitely getting weaker.
You could, I could you canjust tell he was getting in
that transitioning phase.
Mm-Hmm. and thenoutta nowhere he stared off
and then like never came backand changes in breathing.

(30:30):
And I was like, oh shit,this guy's gonna die.
And I knew his family didn'tknow and his family was there.
Yeah. Yeah. So I like gothis wife and got his kids
and I showed them, hey, I thinksome, something has changed.
I think he's going to go. Ithink he might even go today.
Yeah. And the reasonwhy it's my favorite is
because of how the family reacted.
The family did not fall.

(30:51):
And this is okay if you do this right.
But like, they didn't, theywere like on a dime too.
Got in bed with him, kissedhim, hugged him, loved him,
said a bunch of sweet things.
Like Thank you for lovingus. Thank you for loving me.
You were so easy to love.
We love you, we love you, we love you.
And then the guy died. That'sbeautiful. Like right there.

(31:11):
And it was like, damn .
- Like, so my situationwas a little different
because it was his two adult daughters
and his wife who was, whichwas a second marriage.
So she wasn't the mom tothe daughters. Mm-Hmm.
. And as soon as I said,
I think he's probably going todie within minutes, each one
of them grabbed a body part.
And we, Halle

(31:33):
and I talked about this the other day,
started stroking thehands, doing this business,
the stroke in the hands.
And one of them was at the foot
and they're all like, it's okay dad.
It's okay. We love you. Welove you. It's okay. It's okay.
And I stepped out. I said, I'mgonna go sit in the kitchen
and chart for a few minutes and you come
and get me when you need me.
And I was in the kitchencharting for 20 minutes

(31:53):
and I thought, what the heck?
Why he can't still be alive?
And I went back in theroom 20 minutes later
and they were still doing this to him.
And I said to one of the daughters,
is this something hewould've liked you to do?
Did he like you to dote over him in life?
And then they were, sheliterally dropped his hand.
She just went, whoop, dropped his hand

(32:15):
and said, I gotta go to the bathroom.
And the other two, they did this.
They were like, yeah, we gotta go.
And they all three left immediately.
And so then it was just the dog under the
bed and the guy and me.
And so I stepped outand went in the kitchen
and I said, sometimes we cankeep people here if we do
things that make them feel uncomfortable.
It doesn't allow them to like really be
comfortable enough to leave.

(32:36):
And however long that conversation took,
which was just a couple minutes probably.
I walked back into theroom and he was dead.
- Yes. There it is. Mm-Hmm. .
There it is. Yeah.
- Yeah. Yeah.- I think those stories are good reminders
too, that even whensomeone's on hospice, we
as the experts can still be surprised.
- Oh yeah. Yeah. Well

(32:57):
of course our lead in always has to be.
Well, nobody knows for sure.
But I'm gonna give youmy best guess. Yeah.
This death is unpredictable
and sometimes I've been uncannily.
Right. And sometimes I've beenembarrassingly wrong. Yes,
- Yes, yes.
Embarrassingly wrong. Right. .
It's right when I'm like, yes.

(33:18):
And that goes to show too,
that everyone needs different things
and people die how they live.
Like just because someone'sdying doesn't necessarily,
they're gonna be wantingtons of affection.
Mm-Hmm. . Right.That's not how they are.
- No.- You know, um, it's, it's
- So interesting that people,
and sometimes I thinkpeople, if they don't know
what their person wants,they're just going to project

(33:40):
what they would want onto them.
Yeah. They assume that whatthey would want would be
what, what their person wants.
And yet I think, who really wants this?
Does anybody really wantthis? Yeah. That's okay.
That's wrong. Constant stroking seems
so annoying. I can't even imagine
- don't stroke Penny- or

(34:01):
- Halle dying.
- I don't want either.- Or
Halle can we do that to know what I want?
What I You you, Julie. Iwouldn't want constant.
No, I wouldn't want constant, I mean like
- A, a nice hand massage with lotion.
Sure. That would be nice. Or hold my
- Hand.
Let me be, what I think Iwould like the most would be
hearing not tons of noise,but a little background noise.

(34:22):
Like people going abouttheir day making sandwiches,
laughing and talkingtogether away from me.
- Yes. - I just hear thelittle clit. Clatter. Yeah.
Because that's the only way I can nap.
Like in my, in life,
like I can't ever nap if it's too quiet.
If it's too loud I can't nap.
But if people are doinga little bit of shit
around the house,

(34:43):
there's something aboutthat can help me relax.
Oh, people are still here.They're doing their stuff.
I can relax and then I can nap.
So I bet that would be
how it would be at when I'm dying too.
- Well, as the social worker, I'm required
to ask you if you have youradvanced directive, then
Julie ,

(35:05):
- Five wishes. Dammit.
- Dammit. You guys did I
- Have five, have fivewishes is everywhere.
Right? Just Washington. It's
- Everywhere.
I have my five wishes because we did it at
the retreat. .
- Uhhuh. That's a star. That's a star. And
- People know what I want.
And I, and the reason why I went is um,
because I'm full code as of now.
Mm-Hmm. . I alwaysfeel like it doesn't matter

(35:26):
as much, but that's not true.
It's not true. I stillneed to have, I still need
to have it all done.
Tell the people and tell thepeople, Julie, I know .
I know I still need to have it all done.
And man, oh man, I needto practice what I preach
so my five wishes is done.
And like I tell my sister
and stuff all the time,like the things I would want
and need and what to doand my passwords and stuff.

(35:47):
Like she has that. But evennow, like, even though, again,
I'm young, but I still have like my
financial stuff in order.
Like my sister is my beneficiary.
I do have all that stuff done.
- Is she her healthcare powerof attorney? Yeah. Oh good.
Yeah. That's good. Well,
- Like Penny, you said,
- I guess, I guess I do havesome stuff done. Yeah. You
- Started your conversations.
That's the most important part. Yeah.

(36:08):
- And you've got, yeah, I think
where you're at your age is appropriate.
Yeah. You got a healthcare power
of attorney designated,she knows what you want.
She knows those importantthings. Yep. It's,
- She knows password.
She has a key to my house. She has,
she's a beneficiary onall of like money stuff.
But as far as a true advanceddirective with myth a witness
and stuff, well, I don't know,

(36:30):
I guess five wishes doescount, doesn't it? Penny Sure
- Does.
Uh, you do have to have itwitnessed, don't you Holly?
Well, Holly's the advanceddirective expert. .
I I do think you have tohave witnesses for it to be
- Legal.
It's all, it's all about thehealthcare power of attorney.
The healthcare power ofattorney is the one that has
to be witnessed becauseotherwise you're gonna be
around to tell us what you want.
- Right.- It's when your sister has

(36:51):
to make the decisionsfor you if you can't.
- Yeah. That's the one I'm asking
- Witness.
Right. And if you're using the five wishes
to designate your healthcarepower of attorney,
then it has to be witnessed.
But if your, if your sisteris designated in a different
legal document, then
that five wishes don'tneed to be witnessed.
They're just more of a guidefor heard use. Yeah. Yeah.

(37:15):
- 'cause the reason why I saidthe whole five wishes thing
is 'cause didn't we witness each other's?
Couldn't we just be the witness Penny?
Did we, of each other's or no?
- We might have. Yeah.- Yeah.
- Anyway. Yeah. We might have,
because I Eden was there too,
so we might have witnessed yours. Yeah.
- Was there too? I had, mine- Was so I don't think we
would've, or maybe we did witness mine.
I can't, I don't remember. It's a blur.

(37:35):
- I know. That- Was a blur six months ago,
eight months ago, nine months ago.
A long time ago. .
- It was.- Well, just
before we get into yourbook, I do wanna ask you
how your social mediaexperience has been now
that you've grown in size since first
coming on three years ago.
And we were talking just
before you came on about the craziness

(37:55):
with Elise Meyers getting bullied
and large platforms being just trying
to be forced into talking about things
that they're not comfortable with
or it's not their platform.
So how's that been for you
- Man?
So that part, knock on wood, we,
I have had a little bitof bullying, but not much.
Again, knock on wood, becauseI wouldn't handle it well.

(38:18):
I think, I don't know people
emotionally, I wouldn't handle it.
Well that would be really difficult on me.
That that would be somethingthat could take me out.
Not, not take me outta life.
Take me out of the social media. Yeah.
I'm not gonna stick aroundif it's making me feel like
absolute shit every single day.
Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. End of story.
I liked my life before social media.
So it's, this has been anamazing thing that has happened.

(38:40):
Something that I've never, Ifeel like everyone says this
and maybe everyone means that.
I know I do. I really was not expecting
what has happened to happen.
Like, uh, as far as it's grown
and like how my life haschanged now, where it's,
I'm more social media thanI am actually nursing.
Yeah. That's crazy.

(39:00):
And I don't know how long that will last.
Prob probably not forever, you know?
And like I said, I really like my job.
I liked my job and I worked per diem
before I was ever a hospice,
before I ever was hospice nurse Julie.
I did that purposely so I couldlike my job . Yeah.
And so it's, I'm grateful. It'sbeen a huge learning curve.

(39:20):
I've had to really workat not treating it.
'cause I can really get carried away.
I'm, I have an addictive personality
so I can really use likesocial media numbers,
all the things that I cancling onto, like views
and how well am I doingand is this working?
Do people like me, I canreally cling onto that
to make myself miserable.

(39:41):
So I really had to worksomewhat of a program,
like a 12 step program kind of thing
around social media as well.
So I don't feel so addictedto it. Mm-Hmm. .
Like, I don't feel soaddicted to that dopamine hit
of getting a viral video.Or like well they're,
- They're made to do that.
Right. They're, they're made to sustain
that dopamine. That's why we keep
- Coming back.
Yeah. That's why we keep doingit. Mm-Hmm. .

(40:02):
Yeah, exactly. Mm-Hmm.. So it's like,
I wanna be able to feelgood whether my social media
platforms are doing well or not.
And I worked really hard to maintain that.
I don't totally, but Ido. I do a little bit.
I do a little bit. And I'm super grateful.
I'm super grateful for that.
And some days are harderthan others. Penny knows.
Sometimes I can callPenny and just be like,

(40:24):
- I hate social media- A break, .
I do not feel good. I hateit. I feel so much anxiety.
I don't know what I'm doinganymore. I don't wanna do it.
And then the next week I'mlike, this is great. Yeah.
I'm so grateful. This is so,
- And for me, that always correlates
with the numbers, unfortunately.
I know. Like it's always,
like right now I'm in a great mood.

(40:45):
All my accounts are doinggreat, everything's hitting.
I got more followers, morelikes, more views, more money.
Yeah. And then in a day
or two, it could be like,Ugh, I hate social media so
- Much.
I know sucks.
Mine, mine doesn't alwayscorrelate with numbers.
Mine will, mine doescorrelate with it's, it can,
don't get me wrong, it definitely can.
But the feeling, the thing that fucks

(41:06):
with me the most is thefeeling of not wanting
to make videos, butfeeling like I have to.
- Yeah. That,- That with like the book thing is like,
that book thing has messed me up.
But like, I'm gratefulthat I wrote a book,
but I do want it to do well
and I'm not, that's the,this is the first time
where it feels inauthentic sometimes.
Where normally I can just like, fuck it,

(41:28):
I can't make a video 'causenothing's coming to me.
And like, I'm not gonna fake it.
Oh well, I'm gonna gonnawait till I feel inspired
or wait till I feel like I wanna say
something with the book.
I don't like that feeling of buy my book.
Will you buy my book? Here'sa clever way to buy my book.
Ugh. I hate that. And,but I still have to do it.
Like, it feels like I have to,when that's not totally real.

(41:50):
I don't really haveto, no one's making me.
But, so I don't like that feeling.
I wish I could, I wannatry to get inspired
to make videos about my book
that don't feel like a little inauthentic.
Mm-Hmm. . So Idon't know. I haven't figured
that out yet, but that doesn't feel good.
So that's where I get a lot of my, like,
when I feel really bad
and feel like I have liketons of anxiety, it's

(42:12):
'cause of that it's, Ihave no fresh ideas on how
to get people to buy my book.
And then the feeling ofget people to buy my book.
It sounds so, so
- I think this comes to apoint Penny was talking about
again before we had you on, is that
unless you're on someone'ssocial media page all the time,
you're not gonna see every video.

(42:32):
And so for you promotingyour book, you do have
to keep releasing itotherwise it will get missed.
- I know it- Feels to you like every video
is about that .
And it might be, but forone person or another person
or a hundred people or ahundred thousand people,
it might be the onlytime they're seeing you
advertise that book.
- Right. Yep.- I know. So, and that's a great segue.
- Yes, it is. - .

(42:56):
- Tell us about your book.
- My book is coming out in June 11th,
but it's out for pre-order now.
And it's called Nothing to Fear,
demystifying Death to Live More Fully.
And it's a book that's meantto, it can be read from cover
to cover, but you don'thave to, to me it's more of,

(43:17):
it's definitely in morea more educational book.
But because I don't want itto be like a textbook
'cause that would be horrific.
I also weaved in my opinions of course,
and stories and advice.
So it's like a storystories with education.
So it's meant for anyone who's gonna

(43:37):
die, which is all of us.
And uh, spoiler alert.Yeah, spoiler alert.
It's for anyone didn't knowanyone who's gonna die.
Uh, and it, it just takes allof my videos, I would say,
and formulates it into abook, formulates into a book
with stories interwoven.
So you could literally pickit up and go to chapter seven
and just read chapter seven.

(43:57):
And there's chapters to the caregiver.
There's chapters to like the person dying.
There's chapters too about,you know, the process
of death and what that looks like.
There's chapters for deathbed phenomena.
And then of course, like withineach chapter there's just
stories that relateback to the information.
- Has it been a tough processworking with publishers,

(44:18):
editors and things when you're trying
to figure out your words?
- So yes, the process was hard,
much harder than I thought it would be
or no, I, I just didn't know.
I just didn't know what I didn't know.
Like all of this hasbeen, again, I'm grateful
'cause all of this has been,it feels like just given to me,
just thrown my way.
An agent reach out to me.

(44:40):
The agent helped mewrite my whole proposal.
They, and I was like, oblivious.
I truly was like, who'sgonna wanna read this book?
Like I told them over andover again, I can't write.
I told them I don't really read books.
Like I don't know what,how this is gonna work.
And the next thing youknow, I'm getting like
a major ass book deal.
It's just been like so otherwor it's just so unbelievable.

(45:04):
So I just didn't know what I didn't know.
And it was much harderthan I thought
and much more timeconsuming than I thought.
And my editors were great though.
People I work with, they, I,
I gave them the final manuscriptand was, I don't know.
And then they really didmake it what it was like,
the editors that I workedwith at my publishing company,
they organized it ina way that's beautiful

(45:27):
and then it still takes a lot longer.
And then once that's done,there's still a whole process
of getting it actually out there.
So the whole process has takenalmost two years. So, wow.
It's two years in themaking. I cannot wait.
I cannot wait for June
- - Because it justfeels like I'm so happy for it.
I'm proud of it. Andalso then it's gonna be
like, oh, it's done.
This is done. The project's done here.

(45:48):
- It's, well as I'm watching the clock,
I wanna make sure we honor our time.
Is there any final thoughts on hospice?
What you want people to know? And then
where can people find you
and where can people findthe pre-order for your book?
- I feel like you guys covered a lot.
There's always more to be said,
but it's like maybe on another
podcast I can always come back.
Yes, we'd love that.
But you can find me on all social media.

(46:10):
So Instagram, Facebook, YouTube,
and TikTok, my YouTubechannel I'm really proud of.
I feel like that's the, the most different
channel out of all of them.
Meaning like, I actuallyput production into it.
They're longer videos.I really love my YouTube
- Channel.
Excellent. It's so thevideos are so well done.
Oh, I have say I love the YouTube videos.

(46:31):
They're really well done.
- Thank you. And I go live at five
every Wednesday on YouTube.
Okay. So that's where I cananswer a lot of my questions.
But the, all, my whole, thepoint of saying that is all
of those social media areunder hospice nurse Julie.
Okay. So you just lookup Hospice nurse Julie,
and then for my book you can,
I think the easiest way would be to go
to hospice nurse julie.com

(46:52):
and then you'll see little links there
so you can see where you wanna buy it.
And my book comes in the hardcopy paperback audio. And
- Is it on audio already?
- Yeah, it's not, you can't get it
yet, but you can pre-order audio.
- Oh, okay. Okay. But you're gonna
record it yourself, right?
- Yeah. I have a date in thestudio and a director Ooh.

(47:12):
Is gonna help me do it. I know. Crazy.
Yeah, it'll be my voiceand it's gonna be crazy
because I'm dyslexicand I can barely read.
So good luck, .
Good luck Director ,
who's gonna be helping me do that.
But yeah, so hospice nurse julie.com is
where they can get the book and it's out

(47:33):
June 11th. Okay. Can't
- Wait.
Well you so much Julie for coming on
and we look forward tohaving you on again in
the future. Thanks
- Guys.
Thank you for all you do. Thanks
- Besty.
- Thank you. Love you finally able
to say I met hospice nurse Julie, your BFS
- .
Yes. Yes. And I knew that would be one

(47:54):
of my favorite interviews
because I always lovetalking with my bestie.
We just are very simpatico .
We're very much alike and it'sso much fun to talk to her.
That was really, really fun interview.
And we will be putting, she's
- Another one.
We could talk to her for hours.
- Yes. I think that's gonna be how it is

(48:14):
with all of our guests.
Uh, we just ha we just knowsome fucking awesome people.
Let's just put it that way. Okay. Maybe
- Season two will have a longer
format. We'll figure it out.
- Yeah. Yeah. Maybe our guests won't be
as exciting in season two.
. No, that's never gonna happen.
'cause we only wanna talk tocool people like us, right?
- Yes. Yes.- So we will be putting all

(48:37):
of Julie's links in the show notes.
So, um, definitely go checkout her website. Hospice
- Go the- Book.
Go pre-order the book.Yeah. Excited for her.
I'm very excited for her
- And I'm excited formore of our awesome guests
to come along when weget to record with them.
Yes. But until then, remember to live.
- 'cause someday we'llall be dead. All of us.

(48:59):
Real spoiler alert,
everybody who's watching this podcast
will someday everybody's
- Listening.
- Everybody who's listening.
If you're watching us onYouTube, just know this.
You are gonna die. Sorry. But that's okay.