Season 1 Episode 8: Spiritual Care: More Than Meets the Eye

Thanks for joining Hospice Nurse Penny and Halley (Hospice Social Worker) on the journey to #NormalizeDeath! Our guest is hospice spiritual counselor, Steve Bundi. Pastor Steve Bundi is a versatile minister whose journey spans diverse roles and continents. His early ministry included stints in Nairobi as a Colporteur with the Bible Society of Kenya, and in Eldoret as an Assistant Chaplain of a regional college. Expanding his horizons, Pastor Steve pursued a Bachelor of Theology from Bugema University in Uganda, where he deepened his understanding of theology while also serving as the Minister of Religious Affairs in the Student Guild. Later, he returned to Nairobi where he completed a Bachelor of Science in Mathematics from the University of Nairobi, while serving as a TV preacher and presenter on a national Christian channel and as an Associate Pastor of a large congregation in Nairobi, Kenya. His quest for knowledge led him to pursue a Master of Divinity (MDiv) degree from Andrews University in Berrien Springs, Michigan, USA. He graduated in 2020 amidst the unprecedented challenges of the Covid-19 pandemic, which included the global closure of churches. These challenges catalyzed his calling into spiritual care within the Healthcare Industry, beginning with Clinical Pastoral Education (CPE) at Self Regional Healthcare in Greenwood, South Carolina. Pastor Steve's journey in the United States has seen him serve in various capacities, including as a Hospice, Hospital, and Call Center Chaplain. Currently, he serves as a Volunteer Coordinator and Chaplain at Puget Sound Home Health and Hospice, where he continues to touch lives with compassion and empathy. Prior to this, he served as a Spiritual Counselor with Hospice of the Northwest in Mt. Vernon and Walla Walla Hospice in Washington. Pastor Steve's ministry has brought solace and comfort to many individuals and families facing the end-of-life journey. His commitment to service extends beyond traditional settings, as evidenced by his engagements as a guest speaker in churches, universities, schools, prisons, family gatherings, and corporate functions. With his wife Ninah, he is raising two daughters while also planting a new church called Seattle Sabbath Fellowship. In summary, Pastor Steve Bundi's journey exemplifies dedication, resilience, and a deep-rooted commitment to serving others. Through his multifaceted ministry spanning continents, he continues to impact lives with compassion and empathy, bringing hope and comfort to those in need, and inspiring others to follow a path of service and faith. WEBSITES AND SOCIALS: www.prsteve.com https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100049145211715 www.seattlesabbathfellowship.com https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61556609284731 Thanks for joining Hospice Nurse Penny and Halley (Hospice Social Worker) on the journey to #NormalizeDeath! You can reach us at [e-mail], on all places you find podcasts are found. A video option can be found on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@DeathHappensInsiders Hospice Nurse Penny on the socials: @HospiceNursePenny Halley on Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook: @HospiceHalley Our intro music was composed by Jamie Hill (misfitstars.com)  

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
- We try to walk thatjourney with our patients
and their families to respectfullyjust be by their sides
and understand that, hey, help them.
You know, like, get theunderstanding that you,
we are here not to try andchange you in any ways,
but to just support you,you know, to support you,
to affirm you in your own journey.
And just let you knowyou're not by yourself.

(00:22):
And like I said, you know, Iliterally saw what it's like
for someone to die, youknow, by themselves.
You would, you would be surprised.
Someone would just appreciatehaving a hand to hold.
And really, that's,that's what we do. Yeah.

(00:45):
- Welcome to the Death Happens podcast,
an insider guide to dying.
We're your insiders.I'm Hospice Nurse Penny.
- And I'm Halle Hospice social worker.
Today we have a hospice spiritualcounselor with us. Steve.
He's fantastic. And I'mexcited for you to meet him,
because I already know him first.
- I'm excited too.- .

(01:06):
But first Penny, I knowyou have a hot topic,
even though it's gonnabe a couple of months
before people hear this.
It's hot topic as of right now.
- Yes. Hot topic.
OJ Simpson has died of cancerjust a couple of days ago.
He died, from what I'veheard is prostate cancer,
although the media hasn't hada whole lot of information.

(01:30):
I did see a video of oj, I'mnot sure when it was taken,
but he was asked if he was on hospice,
and he flat out deniedthat he was on hospice.
He said, I'm fine, I'm not on hospice.
I don't know where you heard that .
So, uh, so he did deny,um, that he was on hospice
and that he was dying.

(01:50):
- Uh, that's interesting.- Yeah. Very interesting.
- I mean, so many differentthings to talk about with him.
Of course, the obvious.
But I really love your videos
and your takes on them,which is, first of all,
it doesn't really matter what we think
of the person if they're on hospice,
if they're on hospice. Right.
- If they are, whoknows, if he was

(02:11):
- Yeah.
Then we would treat themthe same, just like all
of our patients, you
- Know?
Right, right. He does what,
and what I say is he doesn't,
he doesn't deserve it, but he gets it.
Like, he will get thattreatment even though he doesn't
deserve it, because Yeah.
That's what we do. Wedon't judge our patients
and, you know, we, we are justtaking care of them no matter

(02:32):
who they are, no matter what they've done.
But yeah, I did do a video about that,
and I also covered prostate cancer.
I like to Mm-Hmm. ,whenever somebody famous
dies of cancer, I liketo talk about, you know,
what type of cancer it was.
What are the risk factors?
What kind of testing can youdo preventatively to, you know,
find out if you have itso you can treat early.

(02:53):
And also, uh, what kind
of symptoms might OJSimpson have experienced?
And that most likely would'vebeen bony pain. Mm-Hmm.
, uh, becauseprostate cancer does metastasize
to the lymph and to the bones.
Although, you know, youaren't gonna have any
symptoms really fromlymph node metastasis.

(03:14):
Mm-Hmm. basically,when your cancer gets into
your lymph system, I callthat the highway to the body.
Like when something getsinto your lymph system,
it goes everywhere in your body.
Um, yeah. But there's not a lotof symptoms related to that.
But for sure, bony cancer,
any cancer in the bone isgonna be quite painful.
So he probably did experience that.
And the other thing I talkedabout is that, you know,

(03:36):
anybody with any terminalillness can experience
terminal agitation caused byexistential suffering .
And if anybody's a candidatefor existential suffering,
that could definitely be somebodywho brutally murdered his
ex-wife, mother of his children,
and perfect stranger Ron Goldman

(03:56):
as well. I would think that,
- So he was acquitted.
- He was acquitted in a criminal court.
Right. A criminal trial,
- Found guilty in the civil- That's right.
Found guilty in a civil trial
and wrote a book called,if I Did, if I Did,
and basically confessed in the book.
I mean, the details thathe gave were definitely

(04:19):
indicative of the typeof crime that happened.
Yeah. So, you know,
and then, so, you know,I don't know if a lot
of people don't know this,uh, at least according
to the comments that I had,
because people were sayinghe shouldn't have been able
to profit on their deaths,
and he wasn't The Goldmans suedfor the rights to that book.
Yeah. And they actually won,

(04:40):
and they re they didn't rename it.
It was still called if I did it,
but on the book cover thetitle, the if is Tiny, tiny,
tiny little Font.
Oh. And then I did It is inbig Letters. Interesting.
So it says, interesting if I did it,
but it's like, if I didit , you know,
and they were the ones who,who profited from that.

(05:01):
Um, but I, I was, uh, Idon't know about you, Holly.
Let's see. You're you,how much younger than me?
- 4 47. I'm- 47. 47, okay. So
- You're, I was in my senior year when
the Bronco Chase happened.
- Yeah. So I was a stay-at-Homemom with a little baby.
And I watched every second of that trial.

(05:22):
And I loved OJ Simpson.
I was a big fan because Iremember when I was a kid
and I wanted to start watching football
because McDonald's hadsome kind of football game,
and I knew nothing about football .
So my dad was like, well, I'll teach you.
And so we would watch football together.
And I remember oj, you know,
I remember watching him play football.
I remember seeing him act in movies.

(05:43):
I thought he was handsome.I really, really liked him.
So going into watching thattrial, I didn't have an opinion.
I didn't think that he maybe did it.
You know, like I, Iwatched it open-mindedly,
like as if I was a juror.
Although watching the BroncoChase was kind of like,
why is he running if he didn't do it?

(06:03):
But, um, but anyway, all thatto say, I watched every second
of that trial, unbiased, and,
and at the end was like, ofcourse he fucking did it.
You know, like the motive was there.
I mean, they, theunfortunately, the defense team
just wasn't very good, unfortunately.
And having him try on the glove,

(06:24):
the actual glove was a huge, huge mistake.
Because anybody that wearsgloves on a regular basis like
that knows that they do tend to shrink up.
You know, like when theyget wet, they shrink up,
and of course it's not gonna fit.
They should have had a differentglove, brand new glove,
same style, same brand,same size, and Mm-Hmm.
. So, yeah. Yeah.

(06:45):
- So, yeah, the social workerpart of me, of course, wants
to, you know, acknowledgethe terrible history of,
as far as bringing it back to hospice
of why someone might not beon hospice if they are black.
And yes, historicallyterrible things have happened
in the healthcare system.
So that part of it, as far as hospice,

(07:06):
that makes sense. That
- Is a, a really greatpoint to make, is that, um,
we do know that the blackpopulation is underserved in all
areas of medicine, butalso in hospice as well.
Mm-Hmm. . Andthen the other thing too
that's important toacknowledge is that his family,
you know, they would bepart of the hospice team.
They would be part of our hospice care.

(07:28):
And, and they've alsoreally suffered a lot too.
The kids have suffered.They lost their mother.
They've, I'm sure whetherthey believe their dad did it
or not, have heard that their dad did it.
And that had to be hard to grow up with.
And, you know, so we would also be caring
for their family, like for his family.

(07:48):
Yeah. As our part of our, ourhospice care would be, um,
grief support for them and,
and probably providing a lotof counseling for them as well.
- Well, and that's the perfecttie in for our guest today.
So let's get to it.
- Let's do it.- Welcome to our show.
- Thank, thank you.- It's so good to see you again.

(08:10):
- Good to see you. It'sbeen a while, .
- I know. It's been too long.So, uh, it's been a long time.
Steve, we know that youare hospice spiritual care.
Will you tell us a littlebit about yourself?
- Okay, so my name is Stevenin Full. I prefer Steve.
A lot of my friends call meSteve. Uh, last name is Bundy.
Yes. And I, uh, I have beena hospice chaplain, uh,

(08:35):
since round about thetime of the pandemic.
I've worked with a couple of hospices,
pretty much in Washingtonstate, Eastern Washington, uh,
and then in the Northwestas well, and now in Tacoma.
So, yeah, it's, it's beena wonderful experience.
I'm willing to talk more about it,
but I started off as a, as a pastor and,

(08:56):
and, uh, life unfolded ininteresting ways that, uh,
led me to this place.
And I think I fit in pretty well.
I find it very meaningful,and yeah, it's been wonderful.
I get to meet wonderfulpeople like Har work together.
At some point, and I get to meet, uh,
penny here online.
- Yes. Well,
and speaking of that, Iknow we've talked about your

(09:20):
incredible start to hospice.
I mean, talking aboutstarting in the pandemic,
if I do I remember correctly,were you in a hospital first?
- Yes. So, um, yeah, Ican go as back as, as far
as maybe my MD and then give the
background to that, if that is okay.
- Yeah. If, if you wannalet people know how
to even become a hospice chaplain,
that's helpful for people too.

(09:41):
- Okay. So I started off as a pastor, uh,
served in Kenya and thenfor three and a half years,
and then came to theStates for my, my master's,
the MD program, which normallytakes three and a half years.
So I was basicallypreparing for full-time, uh,
pastoral ministry.
- And for people that, don't dunno,

(10:02):
an MD is a, a Master's of Divinity. Yeah.
- Yes. It's a Master's of Divinity.
It's one of those master'sprograms that takes a long time
three and a half years.
I got, I had friends who cameafter me and did one master's
and finished and did a second one
and still left me there. Ooh.
- Oh, wow.- So your pastor study a lot. .

(10:24):
- Yes. .- Yeah.
So it, it was very interesting
because I, I was at the,
my faith tradition is a sevenday Adventist faith tradition.
And I was at the flagship seminary
of the Seventh Day Adventist Church,
which is in Baring Springs, Michigan.
And so what happens is, whenthe graduating classes about

(10:45):
to graduate, they have theequivalent of the HR departments,
like in all the, what we call conferences,
like the differentdepartments of the church
that run regional areas.
They come over to, to AndrewsUniversity where I was.
And, uh, we have what we callministry opportunity days,
which is a wonderful, uh,time where you can get

(11:05):
to interview with ministerial directors.
Those are like the HRpeople that do the hiring.
And we were looking forward to that
because it was our time, you know,
and, uh, open play field, you know,
like present yourself outthere, you know, find one
of the best places you can go and serve.
And then boom, the pandemichits, uh, early 2020,
and we are the graduating class

(11:26):
and our ministry opportunityday gets canceled
and all the churches worldwide get closed.
- . Yeah. Yeah.- So imagine spending three
and a half years studyingfor your masters, waiting
for your biggest opportunity,
and then like the world just
shuts your complete opportunity, you know,
like we were lost, youknow, like, what do we do?

(11:49):
So in, in the midst oftrying to find out, okay,
what else can we be able to dowith, uh, our, our skillset,
that's when I found outabout chaplaincy work.
And then I found out whatyou need to train, uh,
what you need to do to actually, you know,
start working as a chaplain.
And you have to do what they call
clinical pastoral education.

(12:09):
So beyond your Master'sof Divinity, there's, uh,
hospitals across the states that have
what they call a CPE program.
Mm-Hmm. andsign up for a residency.
Mostly it's done in hospitals,
and you can do mostlyit's about three units
of clinical pastoraleducation in a residency.
And then you'll be readyfor chaplaincy work,

(12:32):
professional chaplaincy work.
The, the catch to that is thatyou needed at least one unit
before you go in for,for residency .
Now, some people who are onthe chaplaincy track in, in,
when they're doing theirMasters of Divinity,
usually they try to get that one unit
because they know they'reprepping for that.
But for the rest of us whoare not prepping for that,

(12:52):
that's really not needed, you know,
in most pastoral settings.
So here was, um, there'sresidency opportunities,
which actually nice, becausemost of them actually pay you
to go and, and study, get a stipend,
but you need that one unit.
But fortunately with theproblems of the pandemic,
they were also dealing witha lot of cancellations.

(13:13):
People are not coming in. Yeah.
So there were some openings
and they were willing tolike, be a bit more flexible
with their intake criteria.
And I was able to land a, aresidency even without one unit
of CPE in South Carolina.
So I headed out fromMichigan to South Carolina
and got into a hospital inGreenwood, South Carolina,

(13:33):
south Regional Hospital,nice hospital down there.
And Greenwood is a nice place, by the way.
Great weather, great Lakes,, hardly knows.
I love Lakes . So yeah,
I started my clinical pastoral education.
It's like a peer program whereyou, you meet, uh, fellow,
uh, uh, ministers who aregetting together to study.

(13:56):
And then you go in afterthere's like lectures,
and then there's thepractical part where you go in
and do visits in the hospital.
So you get allocated likea floor that you cover,
and then you come backand give your experiences
and you reflect on that.
And so there's, uh, it's a balance
of that for like, about a year.
So what happened is I was given two floors

(14:19):
that were all full covid .
Oh my God. So trial byfire, one of those, yeah.
One of those floors wasactually a surgical floor,
but I mean, quickly justfilled up with covid patients.
So I was mining twofloors of covid patients,
and immediately I saw whatit was like for people
to be at the end of life.
And they did not have family members

(14:41):
because like at thattime, you need family,
but family can't even have access to you.
Right. Yeah. You've gotlimited, uh, numbers of, uh,
healthcare professionals whoare even willing to come.
There was like very few nurses
that were actually evenwilling to be there.
'cause one was just overworking, you know?
Um, there was one timemy whole team, you know,

(15:01):
the whole departmentliterally actually got covid.
Oh, wow. Like chaplainscity department, one by one.
Each of us just got covid.
The funny thing is, I'm theonly one who didn't get covid,
and I was the only one who was
- - Directly with Covid.
Oh my gosh. Because I think it's just the
grace of God, honestly.
Uh, I, I, I, I don't know.
There's enough times Ifelt like I was completely

(15:23):
sick when to test.
I didn't have it. But I thinkfrom my own point of view,
I think God just needed somebody
to be there for those people.
Mm-Hmm. , becausethey didn't have anyone.
It's the first time I reallysaw what it's like for someone
to die, you know, withjust machines on them.
Yeah. Uh, as compared towhen they actually die
and they have somebody
that they can hold their hand, you know?

(15:45):
And it's, it's very comfortingat that point, you know?
So I got a real sense ofwhat it means to be there
for someone at the end of life.
Mm-Hmm. whenthey, they don't even have,
you know, like their family.
Uh, so that was the beginningof me working with end of life
patients in, in a very, verydifficult kind of situation.

(16:07):
Now, before that, I had applied,I was applying everywhere.
See, now I'm graduating with my masters.
Churches are closed, so I'mapplying like everywhere
for jobs, you know, whateverchaplaincy jobs are available.
Yeah. I had applied, uh,
to a hospice in Washington inthe process of trying to find
where else to go otherthan pastoral ministry,
as I'm also looking for a CPE residency.

(16:30):
I didn't succeed, but Icame pretty close. Mm-Hmm.
. And so theCPE residency opened first,
and then while I was, youknow, deep in my CPE residency,
this hospice in Washingtonsaid they had another opening,
and they would love for me tojoin that team if I'm willing.
And so that's how I came to Washington
and started hospice work andwas still during the pandemic.

(16:52):
So yeah, I was in an, that'show I, I got into hospice work.
- So did you do a lotof virtual visits then?
Because like my ministry
or agency that I work for, our chaplains
and social workers werehaving to do only virtual,
like zoom meetings.
We, they weren't allowed togo into people's homes at,
during the pandemic and the,

(17:13):
in the beginning of the pandemic.
So what they had to just doall of their pastoral care was,
you know, over a zoommeeting for quite some time.
Did you do that as well?
Or were you able to gointo people's homes?
- So right at the pandemic, Iwas at the hospital. Mm-Hmm.
. So at the hospital,
I did a combination of both.

(17:34):
Mostly I would actually just go into the
patient's rooms Mm-Hmm.
, becauseliterally we were like the only
people that would have access to,
but I had to wear fullPPEs, like the complete,
uh, set Right.
- Mask and everything.- Yeah. Mask and everything.
So I was able to do those visits,
but now I couldn't do themas frequently as we used to.

(17:55):
So I would make phone callsas well from the office,
because, you know, in a hospitalsetting from the chaplaincy
office, I could call sometimes,uh, some of those patients
and actually just talk,talk to them on the phone.
'cause I mean, you can't do a Zoom meeting
with a patient in a hospital.
They, they don't even havetheir computer at that point.
Right. But they do havea phone by their bedside

(18:16):
that they can just answer.
So I used to talk with them on the phone
and then schedule certainvisits, you know, every so often.
Maybe a couple of daysevery two, three days
or something like that,because there were many,
I couldn't do like allof them at the same time,
but I would keep, keep in touch with them.
And now later,
because the pandemic was still ongoing,

(18:37):
by the time I started, uh,chaplaincy work at a hospice,
I never, I don't thinkI did any Zoom visit.
The only Zoom programs we hadwere bereavement programs. Oh.
That we just had likebereavement classes on Zoom
with the families that had been bereaved,
because hospice skate isalso for the bereaved,

(18:57):
uh, for quite some time.
So those we did on Zoom,
but for, for the patients, either I would,
I would still visit inperson if it was absolutely
necessary, you know, and,
but I would have to wear likethe, the PPEs, like, oh, ppp.
Yeah. Full PPEs.
Uh, there's even one time Ihad to do a funeral for patient

(19:18):
that died of Covid andthere passed a, you know,
the pastors were notwilling to show up for,
for, for the funeral.
And I had cared for them until the end.
So I was coming in, youknow, wearing PPEs, and,
and this family was lost.
You can imagine thatcalling for your pastor,
and everybody's skeptical about coming
to do a funeral at that time.

(19:38):
So that's one funeral I didover a covid patient that died
of Covid tough time.
- Hmm.- I, I wonder if we should also say,
for anybody listening thatdoesn't know what PPE is,
that it's personal protectiveequipment and it means, yeah.
Glove mask, gown, eye protection, um,

(19:59):
- Booties,- Boot booties.
Shoe booties. You didn't have
to wear booties for covid though, right?
- No. Covid. - It was like anN95 or a capper. Or a papper.
- We did everything.
We, when we started, we weredoing the booties too. Booties
- Too.
Yeah. Wow. Actually
- Ordered us heat.
No, they, they actuallyeven ordered us Crocs

(20:21):
that were the full shoe Crocs.
Oh. So we could wipe them down.
- Oh, wow. Huh.
So, Halle, were you going in
to see hospice patientsduring covid? Oh, yeah.
- Yeah.- Uh, my agency was like, only nurses
and aides were going in.
We even set our patients up with iPads
so that they could do Yeah.
- Zoom. Both of our counselorswere going in spiritual care

(20:43):
and, and, uh, social work.
The only issue we had was off
and on facilities wouldchange their policy.
Oh, yeah. So between one day
and another, no, only the nurse can come.
No, not even the nurse can come.
I mean, it was, it was a lotof partnering with facilities
and state regulations and themfeeling trapped in the middle
and Right. It was

(21:04):
- Tough.
Yeah. Facilities were horrible.
- Well, Steve, I think thisis, that's a great transition
to, you talked about being a pastor first,
and then went into thishospice chaplaincy.
And we, we know Penny and Iknow that chaplains in hospice
or spiritual counselorsin hospice, they're
personal religions are not affecting what,

(21:25):
what they're doing with the patient.
So if you could transition us
to the listeners understanding,what does a chaplain
or a spiritual counselor do in hospice?
- Okay. So a chaplain
or a spiritual counselor offers emotional
and spiritual support.
We'll define that a littlefurther to, to patients
and, and families.

(21:47):
Because the unit of care inhospice is not just the patient.
That's a difference betweenhospice and hospital.
In hospice, the, the unitof care is the patient
and their circle of support,which is a family and,
and other sometimes friendsand other people around them.
Around them. So, yeah, uh, I,
as a chaplain, I come on board.
And if the family's willing,you know, to take advantage

(22:08):
of the service that we offer
after I've explained it to them,
then my majorly I'd beoffering emotional support
and, uh, spiritual support.
Now, spiritual supportcan take different forms
because spiritual spirituality,the way we define it,
is basically how peoplefind meaning in life.
You know, the things theyfind most meaningful in life.
And people find meaning in life in

(22:30):
different, different ways.
Some would find it throughtheir careers, others, uh,
family, uh, that's themost meaningful to them.
Others, they have asense of a higher being.
Could be God, could be just an awe
of the universe and the way it is.
So we try to walk thatjourney with our patients
and their families to respectfullyjust be by their sides

(22:52):
and, and understand that, hey, help them.
You know, like, get theunderstanding that you,
we are here not to try andchange you in any ways,
but to just support you,you know, support you,
to affirm you in your own journey.
And, and, you know, just let you
know you're not by yourself.
You know. And like I said,you know, I literally saw
what it's like for someone todie, you know, by themselves.

(23:15):
You would, you would be surprised.
Someone would just appreciatehaving a hand to hold.
And, and really, that's,that's what we do. Yeah.
- I love that explanation.
Uh, so many people, andmyself included before I,
before I became a hospice nurse
and being, uh, raised withno religion and mm-Hmm.
, I call myself agnostic,

(23:36):
bordering on Buddhist.
Um, you know, when I was in the hospital
and a, a chaplain came to speak to me
before I went for surgery andasked me if I needed anything.
And I, and he was a, itwas in a military hospital,
so he is wearing a military uniform,
but he had, he was Catholic,
so he had the little whatever collar on,
you know, with his uniform.

(23:57):
And it scared the hell outta me
because I thought hethought I was gonna die.
And, and I also didn'twanna be preached to.
And so many people, theydecline the chaplain,
it happens all the time
because they are worried thatsomebody's gonna try to preach
to them or save their soul, or, you know,
and I am, ever since Ibecame a hospice nurse,

(24:19):
and I learned that that isnot the rule of the chaplain,
then I'm always telling people,do not decline the chaplain.
You know, at least meet them.Don't just decline them.
Mm-Hmm. . And,and we're forever trying
to teach our nurses, our admit nurses not
to represent the other disciplines.
Mm-Hmm. . Just let them know
that the other teammembers will be calling so

(24:40):
that they can explain their own role,
rather than us trying to represent.
Because so many people willsay, I don't want a chaplain.
I don't need a chaplain . You know?
And it is such a valuablerole that you, that you play.
And, and I love the wayyou explain that just now.
That's, that was a reallygreat way to put that. Mm-Hmm.
- .- I think
that's why our agency hasreally moved towards the term

(25:02):
spiritual care ratherthan chaplain, just for
that exact fear, is thatthey don't understand what
that role is within hospice.
- Yeah. We, we've tried to do that.
And there are some, some ofour chaplains have pushed ba
and, and my agency is huge,
and we go up multi-regional,uh, across several states.
And so there are lotsof players in the game,

(25:23):
and some of them are like,Nope, I went to school
to become a chaplain and I'm not willing
to give that title up.
And then we have others who are like,
no, spiritual counselor is fine.
So we've tried to do the same thing.
We've tried to lean towards let, like,
let's stop calling them chaplain,
because there is, there is this
misunderstanding about the chaplain role.
And the spiritual counselor Ithink is a little more neutral

(25:46):
sounding, but we haven't got there yet.
I'm happy to hear thatother hospice agencies
are progressive more than mine is .
- Yeah. And, and really, youknow, clinical pastoral, uh,
education is what really helps us to, uh,
learn, you know, how to yes.

(26:07):
Appreciate our own personalbeliefs, hold them,
but also make space for, you know,
to accommodate other peoplewho have differing views
and still train on how tojust be there, you know,
and walk that journey,you know, with people
who might be very different,even holding perhaps beliefs
that can be very triggering.

(26:27):
You know, Yeah.
- We were talking about that right
before you came on, was, oh, yeah.
It doesn't matter what theperson's political beliefs are,
religious beliefs are,they're are patient first,
and that's how we'regoing to support them.
- Yeah. Yes. Yes.
And CPE training, clinical,back to the question you,
you'd asked Harley, howdoes a chaplain train?

(26:50):
That's a big part ofchaplaincy training, uh,
during clinical pastoraleducation, you know,
the whole element of self-awareness.
You know, just being aware of yourself,
what your limits are,what your strengths are,
what your triggers are, you know,
what your traumas have been, you know,
and the kind of thing youcarry with you into that, uh,
environment of care and whatthat is likely to do to you.

(27:12):
Yeah. And, you know, to theperson you're caring for
or how that is likely to impact your care.
Just being aware of that
and then refining you, your,your skill of care, you know,
uh, during the CPE times,
and also as you gain experienceduring your service as a,
as a spiritual counselor
or a chaplain, depending on the time.
And for me, I, I prefer theterm spiritual counselor

(27:32):
because of what, what you say,depending on what ha I mean,
Ali, you say, because it's a neutral term.
Mm-Hmm. .And in my own experience,
I've had cases where, youknow, knowing the skepticism
that people have, you know, sometimes to the end
of the life, you know, andwhen someone is struggling
with end of life, you know,
the last thing youprobably want is, you know,

(27:55):
a pastor coming with across and praying over you.
Like, man, this is it. Ifyou're not ready for it. Yeah.
But sometimes it's not about that.
So just as swaying, thosefears would be a big deal.
And I've seen just the time spiritual
counselor can open doors.
I remember one time when apatient came into hospice,
and of course they've done the,

(28:16):
sometimes you get a little info on
who this patient is and their family.
And I didn't think this familywould accept a chaplain.
At the time. My, my titlewas spiritual counselor.
But, you know, I, I madethe call as I'm supposed to,
and explained what I, what I do.
And to my surprise, theysaid, you know what, yeah,
we appreciate the nurseand, and the social worker

(28:38):
and everything, but I think at this time,
what we really need is a counselor.
'cause we, it's even really hard to,
to find a counselor out hereduring, during the pandemic.
You know, like, they wereoverwhelmed, you know?
So just the title spiritualcounselor just opened doors,
and we had a wonderful,wonderful time with this,
with this family, uh, until, until,
until their father, the father died.

(29:00):
Yeah.
- Wow.- I love that.
I wanna make sure I lose space for Penny.
I have always kind of questions, but if,
- Well, you know, I always like, can
- I share love, experienceas you're living space for
- Yes.
Yeah. Because that's what,that's what I was like trying
to formulate the words tosay is tell us more stories.

(29:22):
, what is your,what is your, you know,
like most your favoriteexperience that you've had
or your most enlightening or whatever.
Go ahead. You got lots ofstories, I'm sure. Yeah.
- Yeah. There's lots of stories,
but just another storythat aligns with, you know,
what we've just talkedabout, about your, your title
as a spiritual counselor,just opening doors

(29:44):
and just also the training thatyou have that you don't have
to give up your own beliefs.
You can, you can hold your own beliefs.
You can have them, but theycan still be a blessing to you.
And you can still be a blessing, you know,
to other people out here.
So I went into this patient's home
and of course explainedmy role as, as a chaplain.

(30:06):
He was more interested inknowing about me, ,
you know, and there's a, anelement of self-disclosure
that sometimes I allow, you know,
or many times we've gotta allow,
and it makes, helps us make a connection.
And so he knew me for what my faith is.
And 'cause he asked, heasked about it, not as much
as I would try to be asprofessional as I can.
He was very interested about it.

(30:26):
And he was clearly for,for him, he was, he was a,
he was an atheist and annonbeliever, you know, in,
in anything Christian and stuff like that.
And so when he understood my role, I mean,
he always welcomed me to comein and hold conversations,
but he clearly knew what my, my belief is.
And he never bothered me about it.

(30:47):
I never bothered to ask if I should pray
for him or anything like that.
So one time, um, I've justcompleted a visit with him,
and he just says, Hey, youknow what, Steve, I need you
to come next Friday andcome and pray for me.
Hmm. I'm like, why would you,why would you want me to come
and pray and pray for you?
You know, this, this is not,this is not things, you know,
like, you, you, you, youbelieve in or anything.

(31:09):
I don't wanna offend you or anything.
Like, it's like, no, no, no, no, no.
You've been very respectful.
You have allowed me to bein my space, you know, to be
who I am, to hold my beliefs,and I know who you are.
I want to give you the chance to come
and do your own thing here with me,
and just come next Friday.
Just,

(31:31):
And, you know, like, Iwas like, are you serious?
Like, yeah, yeah, nextFriday, come and we set a time
and I was like, okay, I'll come.
And, um, I thought, you know,
like he wasn't very serious about it.
I'll just come, probably hewill have forgotten about it.
It'll be any other visit.
And when I showed up thatFriday, it was like, I'm ready.
I'm ready for prayer. Mmmm man. And, and I prayed.

(31:55):
I prayed for him. And, and
after that, you know, we hada wonderful conversation left.
The next time I came, he was watching
this documentary onspace, you know, ,
he in the Galaxies.
And, and I love thatstuff as well, you know,
so we could connect very well.
And I was like, you know,Steve, this thing about God,

(32:15):
I don't, I don't know aboutGod, whether he's real or not,
but I guess I'm about tofind out .
He's, and you know, I wasjust kind of asking, so
how do you feel about that?
He is like, you know what?
I can't prove whether he exists or not,
but if he does, I think I'm ready
to have a conversation if he does.

(32:37):
And I was like, wait a minute, this guy.
And he, he died soonafter that, I think a week
after that or so he died.
And he was very peaceful.
And it shocked me becausethis is somebody who,
whose belief is very differentfrom, you know, um, from
what I have and the way Iam seeing him being peaceful

(32:58):
at the end of life is noteven the way I've seen people
who believe there's a God who exists.
Oh, yeah. Being like, I'veseen people traumatized,
disturbed at the end of life,
but still believing there's a God.
And I'm about to meet them and still
not feeling like they're ready.
But here's someone who's saying, no,
I don't believe in thisGod business thing,
but I think I've made peacewith everything in my life.

(33:19):
And even the fact thathe might be existing,
and if he does, I'm ready tohave a conversation with you.
And who am I to try
and disturb that space where he,
he's in a good spot, you know?
Yeah. So that was anotherwonderful story I had.
- Halle and I are shakingour heads like a couple
of bobbleheads becausesame, like, same experience.

(33:40):
And, and you know, and,and I'm on social media
and I get lots ofcomments on my videos and,
and I do have peoplesaying that, you know, oh,
atheists must have a terribletime when they're dying.
'cause they don't have any belief or,
and I always say, you know what?
I've actually seen more people
who were convicted in their religion
have a struggle at the end of life
and worry about it thanpeople who were agnostic

(34:01):
or atheist, you know?
Yeah. It, it doesn't necessarily bring you
peace at the end of your life.
Mm-Hmm. to bereally religious. So yeah.
That, that definitelystruck a chord there.
But I love that story. That's beautiful.
- Steve's got great stories.- Yeah.
- , you all have great stories,
I'm sure. , .

(34:22):
- Have you seen many patients
who are having deathbed visions,
- Deathbed visions?
Maybe not. I, I don't, I'm not sure.
I've had a lot of, uh, visitswith deathbed visions and,
and I think the reasonprobably is as chaplains,
we are not usually there at the very,
very end, you know? Yeah. Like,

(34:43):
- Yeah.
Well, people can visionbefore the end, though.
I've had patients who were weeks
before their death whowere, would tell me Mm-Hmm.
that theywere seeing, you know,
whoever their deceased.
- Okay.- Okay. Person.
- Mm-Hmm. - , Iknow they're called deathbed
visions, but it's a misnomer
because really it's can happen
weeks before a person's death.

(35:04):
But basically the end of life visions
where people arevisioning their, you know,
- Loved ones, their ones, you know,
having dreams about their loved ones.
You know, who A long time ago. Yes. Yes.
I, I have had a lot ofthose conversations with,
with patients, especially asthey approach the end of life
and, um, especially dear family members
that have long been disease.

(35:26):
You know, people would beginhaving dreams, you know,
or visions of, you know,them being around them
or maybe interacting with them.
And it appears to be, um,something that commonly happens
around end of life.
I've not had the mostexperience in hospice,
but I do try to listen toother hospice professionals,
and I kind of pick up from what they say

(35:48):
that it's a pretty common,
- Pretty common. Yeah.
- And it's, it's one of thethings we try to normalize with,
uh, with, with our patients,
because they can be abit disturbing, you know,
for, for, for some people.
But, but we try to normalize
and let them know, Hey, we,we do see this, you know?
Mm-Hmm. , uh,it's part of, it appears
to be part of the, the normal
process, you know, at the end of life.

(36:10):
- And I think it'sprobably more disturbing
for the circle of support.
Right. Not, not usually the patient.
The patient's usually like,yeah, they're right there.
It's fine. . Yeah.
- Yeah. The fam, I I,
although I've hadpatients who were reticent
to talk about it, likeone lady, didn't, I,
I would ask people ifthey were having visions.
'cause it helped me to know kind of
where they were in theirtrajectory, you know?

(36:33):
And she first said, no, no.
And then I told her it was normal
that people would see their deceased loved
ones at the end of life.
And she goes, oh, okay.
And then she said, my dad's
standing in the kitchen over there.
And of course he wasn't.
And she said, I didn't wanna tell you
because I thought you'd think I was crazy.
So I think sometimes theyjust don't tell us about it.
Mm-Hmm. . Um,but definitely families can be
like, I think they need some Haldol.

(36:55):
They're having hallucinations. .
No, that's not hallucination. That's okay.
We're not gonna give a medicationfor that. It's, Mm-Hmm.
. Mm-Hmm., that's normal. Mm-Hmm.
kind of one ofthe beautiful parts of dying.
- Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, that probably wouldbe the most comforting thing.
Mm-Hmm. to see if it's someone
that you're happy to see .

(37:16):
- Well, yeah. I look forward
to like seeing my dad if somedaywhen I'm dying, you know,
whether he's there or not.
The belief is there for sure.
People are very convicted inthat belief when they see them.
- Yeah. And, and youknow, for me, I think one
of the most touching thingsabout working in hospice
and working with patient atthe end of life is seeing

(37:39):
how the most important things in life are
put in perspective at that point.
Mm-Hmm. .And it's very interesting.
People don't talk about,Hey, I made this much money,
you know, Hey, I, Idid all this, you know,
businesses and whatnot.
Those can, yeah, they docount in, in some way,

(38:00):
but usually it's about family.
I don't know if you guysnoticed about like, oh yeah.
Like, people at the end oflife are, are not worried.
Like, penny, you said that really most
of the time they're notworried about their own death,
you know, they're not worriedabout even their eternal life,
whether they'll spend itin heaven or, or in hell.
I don't really usually find that.
And it's very interesting asa chaplain to actually see,

(38:22):
see these things, you know,practically at the end of life.
But it's not, it's not such a bother.
The thing that's a bother fora lot of people that are about
to die is how my family carry on. Yes,
- Yes, yes. That's usually
- The big, the big thing.
You know, they're more worried about the
family than themselves.
Or the other thing is, man,
I wish I had spent alittle more time, you know,

(38:44):
with my kids, or, you know,
with a little being a little better
with my spouse or something like that.
Those, those kind of reflections,
or people just reflectingon, man, I had a good time
with my family, or man,I had a wonderful time.
So it boils down to that family.
So I think even when people at the end
of life begin seeing thesevisions of family members,

(39:05):
it's people, it's the things
that were the most meaningfulin their lives that are,
you know, coming to the fore.
Yes. You know, whether it's in vision
or in terms of just mentallyprocessing these things.
And, and suddenly these arethe things at the forefront.
And for me, I think it'sa huge blessing for me
because I'm like, I don'twanna wait until I'm,
I'm at my deathbed and thenI start making the best,

(39:26):
you know, of, of my time withmy kids, or like my wife.
And, and so it's helpedme really appreciate some
of the little moments, youknow, like having dinner,
you know, with the family right there.
Mm-Hmm. families.I mean, life is all about.
- Yeah. I love talking toother hospice professionals
and hearing like this, it'slike we all have the same brain.
You know, we've all hadthese, it's just so validating

(39:48):
to have these conversationsand these experiences
and that same, same, same,like, people are not afraid
of death when they get, like,when they first get the,
the hospice referral
and they're told that theyhave six months or less.
There's a little bit of fear there.
There would be for anybody,even me, and I'm death positive,
but really at the end, it's always like,

(40:08):
what's gonna happen to my family?
And that's what they worry about the most.
Like, what are you afraid of?And it's usually never death.
It's not, I'm not afraidof the death part.
I'm afraid of the dying part.
Like, what's the dying gonna be like
and what's gonna happen tomy family And telling people,
Hey, by the way, we havegrief support services.
It brings the dying personso much relief to know

(40:29):
that their family is gonnacontinue to get some counseling
after their death and, and
that we will continueto help their family.
- Yes. Yeah, for sure.
Steve, you mentioned being in Kenya,
but you were doing chaplaincyor pastoral work there.
Do, does Kenya have somesort of hospice equivalent?
Very interesting. I don'twanna make assumptions.

(40:51):
- , . So hospice,as you know, the history
of hospice is still pretty new,
even even here in the States.
Yeah. Yeah. And this is likeone of those developed nations.
And, and Europe also has apretty much, uh, similar history,
you know, with thedevelopment of hospice care.
It's, it's something that, you know,
you're talking aboutthe seventies, eighties,

(41:12):
you know, it's being developed.
And so Kenya is still a developing nation.
So we do have hospices,
but the, the, the systemis not as developed as,
as it is here in terms ofwho funds it, um, in terms of
the level of offering care,uh, like putting together the,
the interdisciplinary team.

(41:33):
You know, you've got likethis whole team around you
of a nurse, chaplain, social worker,
like all these differentelements that are necessary
to take care of, you know?
Mm-Hmm. as you're dealing
with the whole issue of end of life.
So it's funny enough thatgrowing up in, in, in one
of those towns in, inKenya, there was a, I used

(41:53):
to volunteer a lot during my holidays
after, you know, during high school.
So I'd spend my holidays eithervolunteering at a hospital,
and we used to have a hospice.
So one time I went to thehospice and asked to volunteer.
I didn't even know what a hospice is,
but I thought it's sort like a hospital.
I think maybe some peoplefrom either the states
or somewhere in Europe hadhad been visiting there.

(42:15):
And they did set up likethat hospice at that time.
We had a lot of, uh, HIV,uh, patients at that point.
Mm-Hmm. And we had a lot
of people coming on boardto try and, and assist.
And I think majority of thecare was on HIV patients, but
after some time therewas also cancer patients.
But yeah, they didn'thave much opportunity
for a volunteer or anything like that.
I never, never really worked with them.

(42:36):
But it's, it's, it's kindof, I've been reflecting on
that a lot, that man, I,
I kept wondering about thishospital and what they did,
and I literally walked in there
and asked, is thereanything I can do to help?
And maybe I was just gettingready, you know,
for for what I do now.
So it's not as developed.
But some of us who've been here, you know,
and are seeing this, are going back

(42:57):
and trying to implement the same things
or advocate for the same things.
So it might take a whileto get to this level,
but not yet at, at the kind of level
that, that, that we are having.
And one of the other reasonsalso is there's still a very
strong social community inmost developing nations.
So as much as there's a lackin funding and medical care

(43:18):
and whatnot, there's stillsupport like with family.
So yeah, most peoplewould still be at home
and being cared for bythe extended family,
not just the nuclear family.
That's a big thing that's available
there as opposed to here.
Mm-Hmm. . But astimes change, I think the kind
of setting
and setup that we have here inthe states would probably be

(43:39):
what will happen over thereand will still be useful. Yeah.
- Yeah. Because like,that's the way it was
before in the states too.
People would die in theirhome with their friends
and family would all rally around,
they'd die in their own home.
Then we moved into hospitals
and people started dying in hospitals.

(43:59):
And now we're moving back into the home
with hospice over the last 20, 30 years.
So hopefully other countries like Kenya
and other countries whohaven't, who are still doing
that community based kind of care,
and people aren't going to the hospital
and dying, maybe they'llskip over the hospital part
and they'll, they'll just gettheir hospices and they'll,
because going backwards like
that has been really challenging.

(44:21):
You know, it's, people don't wanna,
they don't wanna talk about death.
It's so taboo because wedid hide it in the hospital.
Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. ,you know, for so long.
And we learned how to prolongpeople's lives. Mm-Hmm.
. So then people just can't,
they can't face the factthat we're gonna die.
They don't wanna talk about it.
And, and then we get peoplecoming onto hospice, you know,

(44:41):
in their last coupledays or weeks of life.
Yeah. Surprised that they'redying when they're 95 years old
because they thoughtthey could live forever.
'cause that's what, you know,
the hospitals said they could do.
Mm-Hmm. .So maybe you'll skip
through the hard part, just go.
- And I hope that keeping
through the hard part willhappen sooner than later.

(45:02):
Because what I have seenhappening is the medical,
we know the, the way themedical in industry can be
so profit driven sometimes.
Yeah, we do. And so, like,just all these interventions
that sometimes youclearly know are not going
to add any value just
because people think, you know,we just need to do as much

(45:22):
as we can keep, keep, keepmaking all these interventions,
and they're costly.
So we have situations where
someone is having a terminal illness
and clearly no amount of medicalintervention would reverse
what they're having, butpeople are still pumping money,
money that is rare to come by.
Hard to come by pumpingmoney into trying to care

(45:45):
for someone at the end oflife, you know, not wanting it
to look like they don'twant to care for them.
Mm-Hmm. . SoI think there's a measure
of education that needs to happen.
So I've seen cases where someone has died
and in the process ofdying, they have died
and gone with all the familyresources, you know, trying to,
- You know,- Care for them in hospital, like houses

(46:09):
and lands were sold and, andfriends gathered together
and contributed money and whatnot.
So a ton of money justgoes to a cause that,
you know, could not be helped.
So I think this conversationis critical in those areas
because people don't have that money
and they need to know, Hey,you know, we can sit down
as families and come to the point where

(46:32):
if there's nothing more thatcan be done, we can accept it
and we can find support for this,
and we can try to, you know,uh, be there for each other
and make the patientas comfort as possible.
Move them to comfort care
and save yourself even more trouble.
You know, so you don't financialcare, you've lost a person,
you're grieving and you'redealing with financial chaos.

(46:54):
Mm-Hmm. , you're about more
homeless or something like that, you know?
So Yeah. I'm hoping ithappens faster. Yeah.
- So then they are, so thenthey are ending up in the
hospital and dying in the hospital
sometimes too, then? Yes.
- Yes. Yeah. The trend hasbegun being pretty much the
same as what was in the States. Oh.
- Uh,- But it's probably not lasted as long
as it did last here, so Yeah.

(47:15):
We, I think there's need to reverse that
as soon as possible.
- Yeah. Yeah. Well, youknow, it all comes down to
people being told there'sonly one option when we know
that there's not just one option.
Mm-Hmm. . Yeah.You know, and people being told
that there's nothingmore that they can do,
but really, we know there's more

(47:35):
that we can do to help people.
But that's, that's part ofthe problem, is they get told
that like, you can dothis and you can do this,
but they, they don't, they don'tget the other side of that,
which was, or you don't have to do this.
Yeah. There's another,there's another way.
- Yeah. And,
and the question of doingsomething as an act of love,
as an act of care can be abit of a problem, you know?

(47:57):
Mm-Hmm. . Uh,so spending money, you know,
treating this patient, eventhough it's not helping,
you know, just as an act ofcare can be a bit of a problem.
Just like sometimes inhospice, you know, at the end
of life, patients do notreally want to eat, you know?
Right. In some cultures,
eating is the way you show care, right?
- Yes. So, so - We have strugglewith telling family that,

(48:18):
hey, you don't have to insiston feeding your patients,
but some families stillinsist on feeding a patient
and end up sometimes killingthe patient faster than
- I've seen it.
I've it, I've had it. Yeah. Yeah.
We had a patient that we,we told him, he, he's a,
he's at risk for aspiration.
He don't give him anything by mouth,
but it was their culture tofeed soup at the end of life.

(48:41):
And they shoveled soup and sh
and he got an aspiratepneumonia and he died.
That was their culture. And weeducated to the best we could
and, and, you know,they did what they did,
but you know, when you aretalking about finances, it's,
people don't want to put aprice tag on the human life,
and so they will spend all their money

(49:02):
because they don't Yeah.
It feels like, oh, no, I'm notwilling to spend the money.
They're not worth it. You know?
And so people are gonnaspend the money and
- Mm-Hmm.
. Well, I thinkto Steve's point though,
it's about education, right?
Because they're not gettingthe information they should get
to make that informed decision.
Mm-Hmm. Re not getting the, there's like,
to your point, there's other options.
You can still be doing something,

(49:24):
even if it's not treatment.
Curative care. Mm-Hmm.
- . Mm-Hmm.. Well, yeah, I,
I agree with that for sure.
But we also know thatwe educate and educate
and educate in the US
and people still will goback to no, do everything.
Yeah. Although the money'snot always coming out
of their pocket, it's coming out of their,
you know, taxpayer dollars.
So maybe that makes adifference. I don't know.

(49:44):
But, you know, we, we educate a lot
and people still will chooseto do those things as,
you know, feed people IV fluids,
tube feeding, intubating.
Yeah. All those things that weknow are counterintuitive to
comfortable death.
They're still gonna do it,even though we educate 'em.
- Mm-Hmm. .- But it does help.

(50:06):
I, I mean, I, I feellike we're moving in a,
in the right direction slowly,you know, we do have a lot
of people who are, are totally on board
with stopping treatments andinterventions like that. Yeah.
- But just for the record, you know, back
to the same question, I mean, other forms
of chaplaincy are thriving in Africa, uh,
whether it's school chaplaincy,uh, hospital chaplaincy,

(50:30):
prisons, you know, all that military,
it's just this one areaof hospice chaplaincy
that I think we still have enough,
enough opportunity for growth.
Yeah.
- Do you think you mightgo back and do that?
Don't go back, stayhere. , .
I mean, I mean, do you seethat someday in your future

(50:52):
that you might, oh, my, wannalead the charge, go back
to the homeland and, and
- Haley, should we talkabout this ?
- I don't wanna think about- It.
I mean, it tags on my hearta lot. It, it really does.
But you know, the universehas its own way of trying

(51:12):
to put you in the right place, you know?
Yeah. At the right time.
Sometimes where I think Imight be deeded is not really
where I'm supposed to be.
Uh, my own personal belief,I do have a belief in God,
and I believe my life isguided and directed by God.
So I do have a strong desireto go back home, to go
to Kenya, you know, to serve,you know, to contribute.

(51:34):
I mean, there's a lot I've learned
by being here in the States,
and I think I can contribute a lot,
but to be honest, I thinkthe doors have always pointed
towards, even when I'm readyto just jump on the plane
and go , like, no, you're supposed
to still have some work to do over here.
So, and really that'show my life has unfolded.

(51:55):
You know, I didn't force, you know, my,
my future to come this way.
I've told you my story aboutCovid, you know, I'm, I'm just
yielding to God's leading,
and what strongerevidence do you need then?
Hey, you're waiting toget into pastoral ministry
and you graduate when churches
- .
- And the only choice I haveis to lean into, you know,

(52:17):
hospital or healthcare industry.
And I find a lot of joy andfulfillment doing what I do.
So it gives me the sense thatwhat I'm doing is meaningful.
Being here in the States is a wonderful
experience I'm having.
I still think I do havesome work to do here,
but given the opportunity, I would love
to still also be able to goback and make a contribution.

(52:41):
And FYI, if that day comes,I'll be calling on you guys
to come over and, you know,
- Come for like, oh man, heyman, I'd love to go over there,
- Come in for some holiday orsomething in some place and,
and, you know, justoffer your expertise as,
as you enjoy yourself.
I'm actually puttingtogether something like that.
FYI, so I'll be calling on myteam from here at some point.

(53:04):
Just, just go over there,chill out for a little bit,
have fun, relax, because you need it.
You do awesome work in hospice.
I've been thinking about that. I'm like,
this guys do awesome workand vacation will be nice.
You know, just go outsomewhere, put up a place,
it can go out somewhere andthe people on the other side
can make use of this skill.
So yeah, you can sit by a fireplace
and there's people who've been bereaved
or something, you know,they can share their stories

(53:25):
and you can share yourexpertise, comfort, you know,
affirmation and you canhead back feeling fulfilled
and they can go home, you know,
feeling happy. So that's one.
- I would love to do that.
That would be, so I alwaysthink about I, how I would love
to go to other countries
and see how end of lifecare is done and Yeah.
You know, that, that justsounds so cool to me.
Sit around the campfire
and share our expertiseand hear their story.

(53:49):
That'd be so cool.
- - By a lake? Yes.
- By a lake. Okay. By a Lake
- .
Well, Steve, I feel like we could talk
to you literally all day long, so
I wanna make sure we're honoring your time
and putting a pin in it for now.
That means we can call you
- Back ,- For sure.
Is there anything else
that we didn't touch onthat you want us to know?

(54:09):
And also, are there places people can find
you if they wanna follow you?
- I think we touched on a lot.
I would say, if anybody'sthinking about wondering,
you know, whether hospice,maybe they're calling,
either being like a, an hospice nurse,
a hospice social worker,a hospice chaplain.

(54:30):
You can start off maybe byvolunteering in hospice, which
very interestingly brings me to one
of my most recent roles, uh, where I am.
I'm doing like volunteer workas well as chaplaincy work.
So that's a nice entrypoint where you can begin
interacting with hospice,seeing what hospice is like.

(54:51):
And, uh, I think hospice is wonderful
because we try to workwith com with the community
around us, you know, to letthe, the people in the community
who are at the end of life know that, hey,
the community has not forgotten about you.
You know, so that's a place you can start.
I think people can start,it's a wonderful place
where people can start and ifyou get the sense that, hey,
I think I find a lot of meaning in this,

(55:13):
and you can draw more andmore into, into hospice work.
So yeah, I would advocate for,for volunteers to, you know,
call up your closest hospice
and see if you can volunteer,you know, for some work.
Volunteer your gifts, volunteer your time.
Hopefully somebody calls myhospice here and volunteers.
That would be a plus for me. .

(55:34):
- Yeah, - That's the onething I think I would say one
of the latest things I've,I've actually learned.
Yeah. In, in my time in hostage.
- Alright. Well Steve,thank you so much for coming
and being on and wewish you all the success
in anything you do going forward.
- Yes. Thank you so much.
- Oh, yeah. And placewhere people can find me.

(55:55):
I do have a website.
I don't do a lot of, a lot ofhospice work on my website.
Maybe later I would, Istill try to keep true to
what I believe is also my calling as,
as a pastor, as a minister.
So even though I'm not like inchurches, I try to be online.
So Pastor Steve, that's P-R-S-T-E-V e.com.
You can get me on there.

(56:16):
I don't update it as oftenas I used to way back,
but yeah, pretty muchyou can find me there.
There's other ventures,
but those are still in the works.
- .
You can let us know. We'llupdate things and we'll
- Make sure it'll link in the show notes.
- Yeah.- All right. Thank you
- And- Me here.
Thank you so much.Yeah, thank you so much.

(56:37):
I have enjoyed myself. I hope you find
my presence here beneficial.
I'm really grateful for thechance to be here. Yeah.
Thank you so much. Andthank you for what both
of you do in hospice asnurses and social workers.
- Thank you.- Thank you, Steve.
- Well, if we've said this before,
we've said it a million times, ,
we could have talked to him for hours.

(56:58):
- Fricking love Steve. I miss him so much.
- I really seriouslylove it when I'm talking
with other hospice professionals
and they just take thewords right outta my mouth
and the experiences right outta my brain
- Multiple times. Right. I know,
- Like over and over somany of the things, both
- Of us are just nodding our heads.
- I I know like every, he said so much
that just really resonated with me,

(57:19):
and I loved the way that heexplained spiritual care.
I loved it. Yeah. Andreally hope that people
who are listening will understand
that the chaplain is notthere for their own agenda.
They're not gonna try to preach to you.
They're, you know, they're gonna serve you
and the way that you needto be served at the end
of your life spiritually. Yeah.
- You know, one of the, and if that, if

(57:40):
that means connecting to a local faith
or, you know, if you've been disconnected
or reaching out to your people
or praying for you, they can do that,
but it's not necessarilythe sole purpose. Right.
- Right. One of the,the ways that I've heard
people ask about spiritualcare is just to say,
how are your spirits holdingup and putting it nice.

(58:00):
Framing it like that.
It's less like woo wooreligion type thing.
It's just about your spirits.How do you feel? You know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thinkeverybody can admit,
even if they're, they have no faith at all
and they don't ha believein spirituality, you know,
they can admit that they have some kind
of spirit, you know, maybe just,

(58:22):
- Or something that justbrings football game bringss
meaning , I mean, like,
like you was saying. Yes. Meaning,
- Yeah.
I love that. Yeah. That it,whatever is meaningful to you,
what brings meaning to yourlife. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. It's,
- And maybe it's a walk in the nature
or next to a lake as as Steve was
- Next to a lake .
Yeah. Yeah. That was great.
- Well, I'm glad we gota spiritual counselor on

(58:43):
to explain their role, becausethat's so vitally important
to the hospice experienceif people allow it
- So important- And we look forward
to more amazing guests.
- Yes.- Until next time, remember to live,
- Because someday we'll all, all, all be.