February 25, 2025 • 52 mins
Hospice Nurse Penny and Halley (Hospice Social Worker) welcome you on the journey to #NormalizeDeath!
We appreciate you joining us for Season 2 and hope you will subscribe so you will be notified of season 3. We appreciate all efforts to rate, review, and subscribe so others might find us.
Don't forget to check out Penny's book, Influencing Death; Reframing Dying for Better Living most places you get tangible and audio books!
Questions? Interested in being a guest? You can reach Penny and Halley at DeathHappensInsiders@gmail.com, on all places you find podcasts are found. A video option can be found on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@DeathHappensInsiders and we are working to upload on Spotify as well.
NHPCO: https://www.nhpco.org/
https://www.hospicenursepenny.com/
Hospice Nurse Penny on the socials: @HospiceNursePenny
Halley on the socials: @HospiceHalley
Our intro music was composed by Jamie Hill http://misfitstars.com/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
That's what I love about hospice is that
we we do so much more
to ensure the patient's comfort, not just physical
comfort, but emotional and spiritual well-being at the
end of their life too.
Welcome to the Death Happens podcast, an insider's
(00:22):
guide to dying. We're your insiders. I'm hospice
nurse Penny.
And I'm Hallie, hospice social worker. Well, Penny,
we've made it through season two, and we're
gonna do our wrap up today.
Right on. Right all the way through season
two. Here we go.
And fun fact, today, we're going to practice
doing this without any edits or cuts
(00:44):
because
for season three, that's gonna be our focus.
It's gonna be more of that,
coffee table, counter, you know, kitchen talk where
we're all just sitting around chatting instead of
a more formalized interview style. Right. Like a
party where everybody gravitates towards the kitchen, and
then we all sit on the counter and
drink beer. Those of us who don't drink
(01:05):
beer don't drink beer, but, you know you
can have a cider.
It's the classic classic party. Right? It all
Yes. Always moves into the kitchen. That's what
we're gonna do. There we go.
Well, let's talk about our first guest. We
had Cody Hefstetler.
He is a
chaplain palliative care chaplain as we all remember.
We love Cody.
(01:26):
Yes. We love Cody. Cody's got a fantastic
podcast called Dying to Tell You Mhmm. Where
he actually interviews
people who are dying, which is
really great. I mean, we can gain so
much insight by talking to people who are
dying. As long as we can acknowledge the
fact that they're dying,
most people do wanna talk about how they
(01:46):
feel about it.
Well, and even during season two, Cody has
integrated this new process process of having those
caring conversations with folks like us,
where
he's talking to people that are providing the
care for those dying people, which I love.
Right. Yes. I actually was a guest on
his podcast.
Recently. I, mine will come out before this
(02:06):
episode airs, so
we'll we'll see how that goes. Oh,
I didn't know. That's awesome. So glad you
were on it. Yeah. It's wonderful. I love
it. And, you know,
I just I love
I love well, we're gonna talk about chaplains
more because we also had another fantastic chaplain
on here, and we're gonna get to that
later. But, yeah, I I just love the
(02:29):
insight that we get from from our chaplains.
It's it's amazing.
Alright. My new favorite female crush, doctor Sammy
Winemaker,
was guest number two. Yes. I Yes. Remember,
like, heart eyes,
you know, hearts everywhere talking to her during
the day, And then I relived it as
(02:50):
I was editing the podcast and wrote to
her. I was like, oh, Sammy. Just
every single thing she talked about, everything she
works with Sienna on
is so much in line with what we're
doing. I just love her so much. I
do too. I I do too. She is
one of the
probably the first people that I really started
kinda having a what do they call it?
(03:10):
A parasocial relationship
with,
through through TikTok. Just immediately loved her videos.
She's just got such a calming presence, and
she's so smart and just Mhmm. Not just
smart. Like, not smart just smart because she's
a doctor and she's trained and she's skilled,
but wise. She's just so wise from her
role in palliative care. And the book is
(03:31):
amazing.
And also, spoiler alert,
there's a workbook coming out. Yes. And I
got to have a sneak peek at it,
and it is fantastic.
And her book is so good. I've I
have she sent me
she sent me the book, and then she
sent a whole bunch of books to me
and hospice nurse Julie when we did a
retreat in North Carolina. She sent, like, 50
books for our guests.
(03:52):
So we had some leftover.
So I took those, gave them all away,
ended up recently having to buy a new
book because I'm always giving these books away
because they're so great. And the last person
that I,
gave a book to
told me that it was so helpful. Her
husband's got cancer
and it was so helpful. She read it
and then she was reading it through a
(04:13):
second time with her husband. Mhmm. So that
book is called hope for the best plan
for the rest, which is
just
very appropriately titled. I love it. I'm I'm
such a great book. Do a special little,
social media plug for her book and your
book when it came out.
So, yes, hope for the best plan for
the rest. Also, the waiting room revolution
(04:34):
podcast with her Oh, yes. Doctor Ciencio, and
they interview some just fantastic people too.
Was on that one too? Yes.
Well, our favorite social media crush, Andrew,
the planty merce, who is
fantastically
on Patreon now Yeah. Was our third guest
(04:56):
and our recurrent guest. We love to have
him on.
Yeah. And and what I really loved about,
Andrew being on is his perspective
on death in the ICU.
Yeah. Which we actually got to talk about
this time. Yes. Because we didn't do we
weren't just fangirling over his
amazing,
videos and his new series that should be
(05:17):
on Netflix,
meanwhile in the break room. But,
yeah, we we actually did talk to him
about his role as an ICU nurse and
and how death is in the ICU, and
it's really different.
And that sometimes people who are
going through all of this
treatment and everything that they go through, it's
(05:38):
harder for them to to let go of
their person who's who's gone through all that
and let them die a peaceful death. Whereas
people who have, like, the more sudden traumatic
things, it's often easier for families to be
like, yeah. Let's let's just go ahead and
and do
comfort care. You know, I get a question
a lot about comfort care. What is the
(05:58):
difference between comfort care and hospice?
And so what I usually tell people is
there's not really a difference in practice.
It's still the same thing. We are still
taking away medications that are no longer beneficial,
and we're not gonna check vitals as often.
We're not trying to do curative treatment
or preventative treatment. We're just meeting people where
(06:19):
they're at and giving them medications to stay
comfortable until they
die a natural death, a n d allow
natural death.
The difference is
that hospice is a program.
And if you're on comfort care in a
hospital, you're not you're not getting the hospice
program.
You're just comfort care. You're getting this, like,
(06:41):
physical
type of care. Whereas hospice, if you're on
a hospice program, you get the comfort care,
but then you also have the additional services
that hospice provides. So the chaplain, the social
worker,
the the aide, the nurse, more eyes on
the person in which is what I really
like. So and especially in a nursing home,
and they do comfort care in nursing homes
too. But what I really like is when
(07:02):
hospice is on board, there are more eyes
on the patient. There's more there's more that's
being seen,
you know, and and you could feel more
comfortable that your person is being well taken
care of because we have more people going
in there to check on them and to
make sure that they're being well taken care
of. And then, of course, there's bereavement services
that happens after that person dies. That's a
part of the hospice program. And the other
(07:23):
thing that people need to know is that
many hospice agencies will offer bereavement services
to people who are grieving the death of
a person within the last year, even if
that person wasn't on hospice. Mhmm. A lot
of hospices provide that service. So I always
tell people, look. If you're even if they
died in a car crash, if you've experienced
the loss of a person
(07:44):
within the last year, you can call a
hospice agency and ask if they'll provide you
with grief support services.
And they often do that. I know my
agency does that. Does yours do that, Hallie?
Yeah. It does. Mhmm. Yeah. I think most
do.
Most nonprofits, let's put it that way. I
don't know about for profits. Yeah. That's, you
know, it's one more thing to be looking
(08:05):
for. And Yes.
As we're talking about this, like, kind of
education piece for ICU and the difference between
comfort and hospice,
of course, being able to be home with
extra support is a benefit for the hospice
program
And remembering that hospice is not just support
for the patient. It is support for the
family, for that circle of support that is
(08:26):
keeping you, you know, able to be home
or at a facility or whatever, but they're
getting the support too. It's that holistic care.
Right. Right. I actually just filmed
a video about that
just
before we started this podcast,
talking about how
people who are dying, their biggest fear is
(08:47):
usually there's like, they don't usually fear what
happens after we die. In my experience, my
patients aren't when they tell me I'm scared
and I ask, what are you scared of?
It's not usually
what happens after we die. It's almost like
that's off the table now. It doesn't matter
anymore. It's what is dying gonna be like
for me
and how is my family gonna do without
me? 99%.
(09:08):
Yeah. Will they be okay? And telling them
that we have grief support services
and that we take care. We are the
only
health care providers
who actually care for the whole, like you
say, the whole family. Yeah. Like, not just
the patient.
You know, we we care for everyone in
in
psychosocial, emotional, spiritual needs. Physically, we don't because
(09:31):
they're not our patient. Right. Although that doesn't
mean that we can't steer them in the
direction if we see something happening. But Yeah.
But that's what I love about hospice is
that we we do so much more
to ensure that patient's comfort, not just physical
comfort, but emotional and spiritual well-being at the
end of their life too.
Yes. Let's hope that nothing changes about the
(09:52):
Medicare
benefit on that, but we won't talk about
that today. Oh. We won't talk about that
today. So get me started.
The other thing I recently learned about was
the statistics that hospitals have to deal with
recently learned about,
that that hospitals get judged by how many
deaths they have,
(10:13):
which really I mean, I guess I get
it. What did you know about that? It
well, first of all, it blows my mind.
I I
am shocked that there
that part of the comparison that consumers can
do is look and see how many deaths
a hospital has had.
And I would not have even thought as
a consumer of hospitals that that would even
matter to me because it's a hospital
(10:36):
and people die.
Like Right. But maybe that's because I'm biased
and I work in a death positive and
all consuming death world.
Yes. That
yeah. And so that makes a lot more
sense to me
as the clinician that's getting hearing stories of
people being pushed out of the hospital when
(10:56):
they're coming on to hospice and things like
that, that there's this pressure from hospitals on
their side
to get people out because they don't want
them dying in the hospital, which is kinda
funny because we all culturally started that. Like,
let's put them in the hospital, and now
And let them try. Trying to go in
the other yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So talk about
that as a compliance person. Yeah. They don't
they don't want their death rate to be
(11:17):
higher. A death rate looks bad on the
hospital. It makes the hospital look like they're
not able to save people.
Which is insane to me. It is. It's
insane. And so they want us to put
people on hospice because they don't have to
count the death. If they died on hospice,
hospice, it doesn't count against their
bottom line of
death rate. And so that's why they do
it. And and sometimes they do it in
(11:38):
ways that are not
I won't say they're unethical.
I'll just say they're not legal.
Let's just I mean, let's just briefly talk
about the fact that actively so
in order for someone to be in a
hospital,
not a hospice care center, but a hospital,
and on hospice,
(11:59):
that would mean that they're under the general
inpatient or GIP benefit of hospice,
which means
they have
untreated or unmanaged symptoms that need a hospital
level care. Right. Actively dying
is not an unmanaged symptom.
No.
There can be symptoms that are unmanaged during
that process. But generally speaking,
(12:22):
that's not the case.
Right. And once they are
like, they might go in there and have
these symptoms
that need acute symptom management, skilled nursing twenty
four seven, titration of medications,
different medications being tried, then we get them
comfortable. Now they're actively dying. They don't meet
general inpatient anymore. And it's so it's a
(12:44):
slippery slope because we don't wanna put a
person who's actively dying in an ambulance and
send them home. Yeah. That would be unethical.
We don't wanna do that. But yet we're
also told we're not supposed to be able
to bill for general inpatient
when they're in the hospital
actively dying. And they're not meeting that that,
eligibility
(13:05):
requirement. And so
it's it's fucked up is what it is.
And,
it's I mean, I'll I'll save their soapbox
for later because we don't have time to
get into the whole trauma of having to
tell families.
Yeah. There there's nothing I can do. We
don't provide caregiving, and I know you can't
afford it, and there's no one to do
it. But they're just gonna have to
(13:27):
stay home with limited resources or revoke hospice
support and end up in the hospital, which
is terrible because there's nothing to keep that
oh, okay. Okay. Okay. I'm backing up. I'm
backing up. I I don't wanna get into
this.
I know because I could, like I'm just
thinking about how we had this
glimmer of hope that that there was gonna
be
(13:48):
caregiving as a part of the Medicare,
but that's not the direction we're gonna be
going now because we don't have the same
administration that cares about people. This will be
our, kitchen countertop discussion for next season. We
could talk about this more.
Yes. Back to the Yes. Back to Andrew,
our favorite plant team, Marce. He's amazing. Continues
(14:09):
to do amazing.
I forgot we were even talking about, Andrew.
We're we're only three in right now. We
have no more. That's okay. That's well, actually,
the next one is just us. So episode
four was
us talking about deathbed phenomenon, which I think
is everyone's favorite topic when they're listening to
(14:30):
death providers.
Yes. Yes. So you'll have to listen to
that because we're not gonna recap that one.
Yes.
I can listen to that one. Yeah. That
was episode four. Episode five, we switched gears
a bit. We did something that maybe was
unexpected. We talked to
Susie Singer Carter. Am I saying your name
right? Yep. Yep. She is many things.
(14:52):
She's an actress. She's a producer. She's a
writer. She's a podcaster.
And she is an advocate for folks, particularly
in the long term care arena.
Right. Yeah.
Yeah. That was a very enlightening conversation,
and,
you know, she did have a terrible hospice
experience with her mother. It was not good.
(15:14):
A lot of that had to do with
the nursing home her mother was in. It
was during COVID too, which Yeah. Added on
some more layers of difficulty.
But she came to find out that the
hospice agency was owned by the same corporation
that owned the nursing home. And so they
had some practices that were
again, unethical is the word that comes to
(15:36):
mind. And, and she had a terrible experience
with that. And and the real the important
takeaway from that, I think, that people really
need to understand is that you have rights
for a hospice patient. You have the right
to transfer to another hospice agency if you
are not happy with the one you have.
There's always gonna be an ombudsman
(15:56):
or a a state number that's provided to
you when you have your person go into
a nursing home that you can call with
your complaints. You should call the state. All
nursing homes are regulated by the state,
and you can complain. I've actually done that.
My mother in law's in a nursing home,
and I have called several times and complained
to the state, and they've investigated.
(16:17):
Mhmm. And, you know, you do have rights.
You have you have the right to revoke
hospice at any time. Yeah.
And take your person to the hospital if
if that's what you wanna do.
But but I think that's, like, the important
thing that people need to know that that
Susie did not know. She didn't know these
things and, was surprised when I told her
about them in the podcast that I was
(16:39):
on of hers. Mhmm. She was not aware.
And so people really need to know their
rights. And the place that you can go
to find out what your rights are is
the nhpc0.org
website,
and they have a section there for,
family members and Mhmm. Patients. And you can
go there, and then that explains more about
what you can do, what your rights are.
(16:59):
Because reading through
the certificate or the
the, conditions of participation. The I always call
them the cops because that's what I'm used
to. So I'm like, what does that stand
for? Conditions
of there's more than that. There's the conditions
of participation. There's the hospice benefit manual chapter
nine. There's the, CFRs,
you know, the code of federal regulations. There's
(17:21):
all these different places where all this information
lives. Yeah. And I know all of it.
But for a regular person who's
that's not their job to know this stuff,
it's hard to find that information. So really
going to nhpc0.org
is a really great place to or your
state hospice.
A lot of states have
(17:42):
their own hospice organizations.
I know there's one in Washington and Oregon
and California.
I think most states probably have an organization
that helps with,
understanding what your rights are. Yeah. And we
definitely got more into that during the podcast
about specifics
that people can do. But, yeah, know your
rights.
NHPCO,
(18:03):
the National Hospice and Palliative Care Organization,
is always a great resource and just, you
know, ask questions. Just know that you can
be an advocate.
Yeah. That that was a little hard one
because,
it it's always hard to not be defensive
when we're talking about hospice.
Yeah.
I feel like it was a little easier,
(18:24):
on that one, easier than I thought it
was gonna be, I think, because
I wasn't sure how much of her story
was
long term care related versus hospice. And, also,
as I've said before and you've said before,
every time any hospice has a bad review,
it's bad for all of us. Right. And
so
it's also important, though, to know, just like
(18:45):
everything in the news, just because you hear
one bad thing, the percentage of that is
still pretty small, and, also, it's important to
hear about it, know about it, fix it.
So Right. I think both things can be
true. We can know about them. We can
talk about them, and it doesn't mean that
every hospice experience is gonna be bad.
Yeah. Right. It's true. It I feel the
(19:06):
same way always. I'm a little defensive when
I hear that somebody had bad
Mhmm. Care.
I and I think more so when that
when,
not only am I hearing they had bad
care, but they're
they're equating that to all hospice. Yeah. Like,
all hospice is bad because of my one
experience that I had. And that makes me
very defensive, but I get how you could
(19:27):
have that
that feeling. Like, hospice failed me. And,
you
know? For sure.
Well, our next guest was a lawyer, which
you might not expect on a death and
dying podcast. But Andy Shue,
a lawyer in Washington and California was kind
enough to come on and talk to us
(19:47):
all about probate
and all the things we need to know.
That that I
there were lots of things I didn't know
I didn't know. Mhmm. And,
that was a really, really I actually have
an appointment with a lawyer,
I think it's next Monday to go and
have her look over our wheels because he
definitely
(20:07):
gave me some information that I didn't have
when we went and got our wheels from
some little
wheel factory that cranks them out for cheap
and isn't probably what we need. And Yeah.
So,
yeah, he he he was really enlightening for
sure.
Very. I I love his reference that you
really need to talk to someone local in
(20:28):
your area because there are things you're just
not gonna think about
that pertain to local law,
and they're going to know that. That's what
they're paid to do. And a reputable lawyer
likely will give you that first free consult
to know if you even need a lawyer.
Right.
Right. So Yeah. So if you're in Washington
or California, look up Andy Schuss.
His information is in the show notes. Yeah.
(20:51):
Yeah. He was really good. I really liked
that episode a lot.
So the next episode was episode seven where
we took a little trip,
if you
recall.
Oh, yeah.
We talked to Lisa Jaeger all about
psychedelic assisted psychotherapies
and specifically around end of life and death
(21:11):
anxiety.
I have an idea. We should do that
again with her. Only next time, let's really
take a trip.
I have taken a trip. I'm not sure
I wanna do that again. But Oh, I've
taken lots of trips, but they weren't guided
by anybody.
They were of my own free stupid will.
I had never had anybody,
like, trying to make sure I didn't jump
(21:33):
out the window and think that a bag
of onions in the basement was a monster.
Well, if you're actually getting some treatment by
a reputable source,
even if you're having
what would be a negative experience or something
that's not
happy, lovey, the world is connected,
(21:54):
then you're going to have that professional guidance
to get you through that and integrate it.
That is the whole
really, what I want people to take away
from that episode is be careful of these
places that will offer medications and no therapeutic
support.
Yeah. Yeah. I really wanna see us go
in the direction of having that available for
hospice patients
(22:15):
Mhmm. More more widely available because I do
think it could be really helpful for a
lot of people,
to be able to process their own death,
ahead of time. It's gonna make for I'd
love to know if there are statistics about
that too. Like, do they have any
like, even anecdotally, do people who go through
that have a better death experience?
Anecdotally, yes. I can tell you a %
(22:37):
for sure. Your your agency
does
do this. We have. The the tricky part,
I think, is there was a study going
on, and the criteria
for a study
always requires a bit more time than you
would generally have in hospice.
I really would like to see this more
in a palliative setting,
(22:58):
which were most of the clinics were palliative,
so they were able to get more patients.
The ones that were participating that were actual
hospices only,
they were having a harder time just because
of the time frame and exclusions.
But I think in a palliative world, like
we've talked about, right, palliative doesn't mean you
have six months or less. You have a
lot more time. Right? When you get that
diagnosis, you're eligible for palliative care. We'll keep
(23:21):
hammering that home. Right.
But if that could be available upstream, I
think that'd be so beneficial.
It it would be incredible.
Yeah. Yeah. I I think it would be
too. I I do. I I think there's
gonna be a generation of people who it's
not gonna be,
like,
older people who are
(23:41):
just say no. Mhmm. You know, are gonna
be
not maybe as interested in trying it because
of the, you know
The stigma. Idea. The stigma. The stigma of,
you know, doing
psychedelics. But but I think as we go
along and younger people are
in hospice, it might be something that's,
(24:02):
you know, used more often. There's lots of
I always think about, I don't know if
I told you this before, but I keep
thinking when someday if I go on hospice,
if I'm lucky enough to to go on
hospice,
I want nitrous.
Did I tell you that before? I want
nitrous. Talked about that off the pause.
Like, I want nitrous.
I wanna I'm gonna call my dentist and
(24:23):
tell him to bring me a tank, and
I'm gonna be using laughing gas. Yep. PS,
that's not actually available for anybody listening, so
don't ask us for that. Right. It's not.
It's not. But they do carry it on,
ambulances.
They do use it. And I know this
because when I was working in a hospice
care center,
a colleague of mine had an allergic reaction
to some lilies that were brought in.
(24:46):
And so I she was calling for a
nurse and running down to the other side
of the building where her office was, and
I was going after her. And and she
grabs her purse and she gives me an
EpiPen and hands it to me and says,
put it in my thigh.
And I took the EpiPen
to pull this cap off, turn it around,
and boom, it was upside down.
(25:08):
And I got myself in the thumb, and
it went right into the bone.
Oh. Now she's having an anaphylactic reaction, and
I'm having
epinephrine in my system. And I'm like, woah.
And so then the ambulance came, and
they had to give me nitrous to get
it out of my it was in the
in the bone.
And I had to so they gave me
(25:29):
nitrous. So that's how I know. That makes
me a little sick to my stomach. Yes.
I wanna tell you something. I wrote to
the company, and I told them what happened.
And I said, I am a nurse,
and I pulled the cap off and didn't
know
that that when I turned it over that
that wasn't the business end that I pulled
the cap off. That was the end where
(25:49):
the button on it. That's what I would
have thought.
Yeah. And so they actually
put a red thing on there now instead
of orange, and they have a practice one.
So and I know this because my husband
has bee allergy, so we have epinephrine pens.
And it came with a practice one, and
it's well marked now. Like, it's really well
marked so that you don't do that. Because
(26:10):
I was like Yeah. So if you didn't
put your epinephrine pen into your thumb,
you're welcome.
I fixed that for you. I fixed it.
Yeah. I would have thought the same thing.
The cap is the part with the pointy
part. You know? Yep. I know. Right? And
then I had to go to urgent care
because so the doctor, when he pulled it
out, he he was, like,
(26:32):
you know, massaging to get the because what
happens when you put epinephrine in is it
cuts off the circulation.
Oh, no. You don't wanna put it yeah.
You don't wanna put it in your so
there's a chance you can lose your thumb.
So, you know, he did this for a
long time. He was like, keep an eye
on it. If it's if it it pinked
up.
And he says, but if it if it
loses its color, you know, go to the
urgent care. And sure enough, later that evening,
(26:53):
it started turning white. Oh my gosh. I
went to the urgent care, and they had
to inject it with something that restored the
circulation to my thumb. Yeah. It was an
ordeal.
That's a mistake story.
I know. But but look how much you're
educating people on this. This is important things
to know. Yeah. This is what we're talking
about. The epinephrine pen. Yes. Thank you.
(27:16):
Alright. Our next episode, episode eight, was just
us again. We were talking about
the end of life process
and specifically around diseases that may be considered
self harm by some.
Yeah. And I think that's a great episode
to watch too. I just saw
somebody that's supposed to be
(27:37):
potentially heading up the Department of Health and
Human Services
speaking to,
the fact that people who smoke cigarettes and
give themselves lung cancer shouldn't be a burden
on others in society by costing the medical
system more money. And I was just like
Wow.
That is, like, not
cool, buddy. That's not cool because people
(27:59):
especially when we think about the tobacco industry
and how in bed with the government they
were and why people smoke and how addictive
it is and
yeah. It's like
anyway, yeah, we don't blame people
for their diseases.
We don't blame them. We don't we don't
blame them.
You know? We listen and we don't judge.
We listen. We listen and we don't judge.
(28:22):
Addiction issues are
very hard to overcome.
And then after we've talked about how many
times,
you don't have to have smoked to have
had lung cancer.
Right. That's right.
That is absurd.
I
I'm not even gonna start talking about it
because it's just gonna piss me off. So,
(28:42):
just go back and listen to the episodes.
We do talk a lot about the fact
that even if you suspect it because it's
a stigma around a particular disease, it doesn't
mean that person did that thing to get
that disease. And even if they did, they're
still a human and they deserve care, and
that's how we're gonna treat them. Compassionate
care. We don't judge. We listen and we
don't judge. Yes. We care about this without
(29:04):
judgment. Yeah.
Well, I am emulating our next guest,
the Spitfire side of things,
which is Em, that Spitfire nurse.
I wanna have Em on again sometime when
I'm not having to record from my studio,
which I did. I believe we had a
snow I think we had snow at that
time or something, and I and I couldn't
(29:25):
get down to my studio.
And,
it was a technical fucking disaster.
So
Every season, there's at least one. That was
the one. Yeah. Ugh.
Yeah. Poor m. She's so
adorable and lively, and I'm just so sad
that I had to use still shots for
(29:46):
the YouTube video for that because
it was just it was a disaster.
She was such a trooper for that interview
because oh my god. Smart, and she's so
smart. And
and she's she's young, but she is so
smart. She's really
got her head wrapped around,
you know, the oncology palliative care
(30:06):
world and has great advice and makes adorable
videos and is
really a great educator.
Yeah. And so, like, we need to have
her back again.
And but in the meantime, even just, like,
listening to that podcast is still good even
though we talk each other constantly because of
the delay. And
(30:28):
Total total fuck up on the technical
on that, but still a good good episode.
Yeah. We managed to pull out the snippets.
I think it was not quite as bad
as our season one technology glitches. So,
thankfully, that was really the the one big
one that we had an issue with and
we got through it and and was great.
So, yeah, everybody go check out M's page.
That's Spitfire nurse. She's great. Yes.
(30:51):
Our next interview was about hospice, massage, and
aromatherapy. We spoke with Tiana Joy.
Is Joy her real last name? I think
so. Far as I know. I love that.
I love it. Tiana Joy. She's very joyful,
and I loved that she shared her past
with us because she talked about being a
bartender. And I was like, girl,
(31:13):
we live the same life, I think.
But she's,
just very,
in tune.
I would love to
to have her
I I loved the way she talked about
working on people and how she
you know, like, she's so in tune with
with trauma and needing, like, this talking about
(31:34):
the scars and how Yeah. You know,
she needs to know how to be able
to touch those scars, what caused them. Mhmm.
And just, you know, very, very,
I could just see her being just super,
I don't know, like,
mindful and
healing healing. You know? There's a massage and
then there's, like, healing touch, and she's very
(31:55):
much healing touch.
Mhmm.
No. I think that discussion was really informative
for folks that have not experienced
the integrative therapies that we can provide through
hospice, and not all hospices have everything at
their disposal. So that's an important thing to
ask when you're looking for what's available.
But, you know, looking at things like massage
(32:17):
or aromatherapy
or energy work
or acupuncture
or, you know, music therapy, these are all
things that are not from the core team
of hospice, not part of the Medicare benefit
per se, but that are amazing
healing things that can be integrated with the
rest that aren't pharmaceutical
or
psychological or that kind of thing.
(32:38):
Yeah. There are some there is some language
in the cops about alternative therapies, but it
isn't like, it's I think it is, like,
more suggested than required.
Some things are required
like,
PT, OT,
SLP, speech language pathology,
not for restorative,
(32:58):
but to help people meet people where they're
at with Mhmm. Like, the OTs are great
about what kind of,
assistive devices do you need, that type of
thing. Those are, like, more, like, required, but
then other therapies, comfort therapies are,
like, nice to have. Mhmm. It's mentioned in
the COPS, but not required, but many, many
(33:20):
hospices do provide those a lot of times
with volunteers. A lot of agencies use volunteers
for that.
So yeah. If you're Or foundations.
Or foundations. Yeah. If you're shopping for a
a hospice and, again, just a reminder, you
get to shop for a hospice. You don't
have to go with just one that was
re you were referred to,
and you can look at the Medicare compare
(33:41):
website for a hospice agency.
That's a question to ask. In fact Mhmm.
I need to add that question to my
website because I do have a list of
questions that you should ask, and that's not
one that's on there.
So I need to remember to put that
on there that you can ask them. Do
they offer any alternative therapies like massage,
thenatology,
(34:01):
which is music music therapy,
aromatherapy.
Do they offer? Is it a one touch?
Is there one more massage?
Right. Because some will do, like, one massage,
and that's all you get, which is more
than some others do. But, yeah, asking
yeah. I need to take it. I don't
have a pen with me. I need to
take a note on that. I'll make a
note for you. Put it in my vault
(34:23):
here.
In the vault, out the vault.
Our episode 11 guest was our bicoastal
boy. That is David from dead talks,
our Staten Island, Californian.
Yes. David from dead talks. Love David. I
mean,
(34:43):
he is just something else. I
every time I talk to David,
he opens my mind to something new. Mhmm.
He has such great perspective on things.
And it's probably because he really
he's, like, out there talking. He's he's kind
of like Cody in a way. Yeah. In
that he is talking to a lot of
(35:03):
people
who are
enmeshed in death in one way or another,
whether they're dying themselves, they've recently lost someone.
And not just people that lost somebody on
hospice,
but well, I don't know why I'm saying
lost. I hate lost so much. It's not
like you can't find them. They died. Right?
Not just somebody that died on hospice, but
but death in general because Yeah. You know,
(35:24):
David's father died in
the Eleven. '11.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. He when David was a kid.
He's great. He's very engaging and easy to
listen to,
and easy to talk to. But, also, like
you're saying, I love that he
is willing to talk to people of all
different perspectives about all different angles of death
(35:44):
and dying. It's it's really fantastic. So I
haven't listened to David on the streets yet,
dead talks on the streets.
But I have listened to some episodes and
just really always a great perspective and great
interview.
Yeah. Well, he's the right person to be
doing those interviews because, again, he just
he opens my mind and which tells me
that he's very open minded. You know? And
(36:06):
I know that he is. And and so
it's it's just so interesting because he really
he just asks great questions of his guests.
He's really good at that. I really like
that.
Alright. Our last interview
is your other favorite chaplain
that I mean, I'm telling you,
if Hank was single
(36:29):
and if I was single
I mean, I am very,
and I have always loved Hank, and his
books have been in the hospices that I've
worked at, so I've known about him. And
then he reached out to me
probably,
a year after I started doing social media
and wanted to have a Zoom call and
(36:50):
just meet with me, and we talked.
And, but I didn't really get to know
him. Like, I now know him until we
had our podcast with him. Yeah. And,
hi, love that guy.
I mean Hank Dunn. Right? I don't have
it in front of me. Yeah. Is his
last name, Dunn? Yeah. Hank Dunn, Hard Choices
(37:10):
for Loving People.
Mhmm. Oh, Penny's he's gonna go get the
book here.
Yeah. Hard choices for loving people, and then
this is the other one he wrote called,
light in the shadows,
which is meditations
while living with a life threatening illness, hard
choices for loving people I have
at home.
(37:30):
Yeah.
I mean, he is a pioneer. And just
like Barbara Carnes, he is a pioneer when
it comes to hospice care.
Wise
beyond words.
Wise beyond words. I mean, the guy is
he's incredible. And and his book is
(37:51):
it's timeless. And it's interesting because what he
has written about
is still
relevant
today because
things haven't changed enough in health care Yeah.
For us to stop doing everything.
You know? And he just it's it's so
good. His book is a great book, like
a companion to, I think,
(38:13):
doctor Sammy's book. Mhmm. Yeah. Hope for the
best, plan for the rest. Those two books
go to get to together good because they
really guide people to ask the right questions
and to have more knowledge about what it
is that's happening.
Yeah. I agree. And he's also a great
example to people of what a hospice chaplain
can be, that it's not,
this
(38:34):
religious,
you know, I'm gonna go proselytize to you
situation that people imagine that it is.
Yes. Yeah. That's that's the other thing too,
because he's strong in his own faith,
but he's also
he's like
like the ideal chaplain. All chaplains should
(38:54):
be multidenominational
in their practice. That's a requirement to be
a chaplain. You have to have a master's
degree in divinity to be a chaplain. So
you might practice
a faith, but you have to know everything
about every other faith. That's a requirement.
Yeah. Their their real requirement is to meet
people where they are just like we do.
We don't have to have the same philosophy.
(39:15):
We just have to be there to guide
you through end of life.
Exactly. Exactly. I would love for him to
be my chaplain if I was on hospice.
He would be
him and Cody, because Cody, same thing. I
get to say they both have the same
vibe. Don't forget Steven from last season.
Oh, and Steven. Yes. That's right. But they
like, they do they all have the same
(39:36):
I mean, and all chaplains do have the
same vibe. It's not about Yeah. I'm gonna
tell you what you're gonna believe. Mhmm. I'm
gonna take you where you need to go.
I'm gonna meet you where you're at, and
I'm gonna serve you how you best
are served. Yes. What's best for you.
It's I it's so, like, yeah. I love
those guys. Yeah. So great. The chaplains is
(39:56):
premier hospice chaplains on this pod. We have.
We have. And and the thing about chaplains
too and I've got another one for next
season, by the way. But the thing about
chaplains is Or spiritual care. I know we
talked about that last season, but
calling it spiritual care too.
Care. Like, let's stop calling them chaplains, but
spiritual
(40:17):
care is that,
you know,
they're so underused.
They're underutilized.
In hospital, people just decline the chaplain services
before they ever meet them. Mhmm. And so
my if if I could have
everybody who's watching or listening to this pod
have one takeaway, it's this.
(40:37):
Meet
the chaplain.
Do not decline the chaplain before you meet
the chaplain. If you meet the chaplain and
they're it's not a good fit,
it's not a good fit. But don't just
out of hand dismiss the chaplain services or
the spiritual care services because
they
can
do so much for you that you don't
(40:58):
even know exists. Like,
they are the best listeners.
Oh, yeah. That's right. I've got two chaplains
for the next
I didn't think it because I just thought
of my other favorite one. Yeah. J s
park.
Yeah. So, I mean, I've never met a
chaplain that I
(41:19):
did not trust completely to be somebody who
I would want at my bedside if I
was dying. And I am
very anti religion, and I am probably pagan
agnostic Buddhist. I don't know.
And and every chaplain I've ever met, I
would say I would trust them at my
bedside.
Yeah. For sure. Not proselytize.
(41:40):
Well and, again, just like the rest of
the team, don't forget that they're also there
for the circle of support.
Yes. Exactly. Exactly. They're there. And if and
if you're dying and you're the hospice patient
and you've converted and you're Jewish, but your
mom's a Catholic and your dad's a Christian,
the chaplain can serve all three of you.
Mhmm.
Exactly. Not at the same time, but you
(42:02):
know?
Or find a way to compromise to serve
the patient's needs. Compromise. Yeah. Ah, yes. So
they could probably do that.
I bet you they could. I bet you
they'd find the common ground among the three
religions and be able to meet all three
where they're at at the same time. Yeah.
Was that good? They are that good.
I was thinking I'm not not even kidding
about this, Hallie.
(42:23):
I was actually thinking about going back to
school
to get a master's in divinity and be
a chaplain.
I think it would be great. I was
recently thinking about that.
I don't know. So I have a bachelor's
right now, so I'd have to,
you know, I'd have to
take my master's. It's a lot of school.
I'm old. I'm a old lady, but, hey,
(42:43):
I'm retiring soon. I got nothing else to
do with my time.
Well Make good cuts. Know about that. Alright.
Now we've talked about our guest. Now we're
gonna talk about you, Penny.
So during this season,
you have finished and released your book. So
tell us about your book.
Yeah. I finished my book.
(43:04):
Questions I get often are, how long did
it take me to write? Well, first of
all, what's it called?
Okay. First of all, it's called Influencing Death,
Reframing Dying for Better Living. It's getting backwards.
No. I can read it. Actually oh, you
know what? It's backwards to me. It's so
weird. This is mirrored for me, but Influencing
Death, Reframing Dying for Better Living.
(43:24):
Yeah. So people ask me, why did I
write it? How long did it take me?
It took me, I would say, about eighteen
years because the stories that I've started writing
back when I was first a hospice nurse.
Mhmm.
And I wanted to
well, I I
I also have ADHD and how I think
you you know what about me now. I'm
(43:45):
good at starting things, but I'm not great
at finishing them. So eighteen years ago, I
started writing stories.
And then
a couple years before TikTok, I started,
wanting to write a screenplay because I didn't
like how medical
shows are so fake and they don't ever
show natural death, how it's really supposed to
(44:08):
look or really does look. They're great at
traumatic death. Boy, they can make realistic looking,
you know, death by zombies or a car
accident or whatever,
but they're not good at at natural death.
It's always crossing the hands over the heart,
closing the eyes. They look perfect. Their hair
is perfect. Their makeup's perfect. Then they take
a breath after they've said their
amazingly profound last words, and then they close
(44:30):
their eyes and die.
And that's not how it is. And I
wanted to I was, like, really thinking about
how could
medical shows be more authentic. And Amazon had
this amateur
writing
program,
and you could put your words in there,
and it would turn it into a script.
And Amazon would select amateur shows amateur shows
(44:51):
to make
as an Amazon show. Yeah. So I started
taking my stories and putting them in there
and trying to write this thing. My sister
and I were working on it together. I
we came up with the name Passing. It
was gonna be called Passing.
And, I had quite a lot of it
written, and then Amazon pulled the plug on
that whole thing. Oh, Amazon, if you're listening,
(45:12):
what the hell?
Yeah. So I was like, okay. Well, oh,
well.
So I I shelved it, and then I
found TikTok in 2020.
And
as I was telling stories, people started
saying I should write a book. And when
I got to have about a hundred thousand
followers, I thought maybe you should write a
(45:33):
book.
And then I wanted the book. So what's
it about? It's a memoir,
and it's about my journey in life, which
was quite rocky when I was younger. Drugs,
alcohol, jail, gave my son to his dad
to raise lots of
trauma.
And how I
overcame that, became a hospice nurse and what
(45:55):
being a hospice nurse and caring for dying
people has taught me about life and living.
And so that's really what it's about. And
so when I wanted to write this book,
I decided that I needed it to be
what I felt like my audience, quote, unquote,
people who follow me on TikTok and other
social media platforms
want to hear from me. Mhmm. And so
(46:17):
and so that's why it became this this
memoir really is because I knew that by
sharing parts of my life on my social
media that,
with people who follow me wanted to know
to know more about what makes a person
who goes into death care tick. Mhmm. Like
what, what leads you to it? What draws
you to it and and what is it
like to do it?
(46:39):
So that's
more than you probably wanted to know, Hallie.
Well, I already know because I have been
lucky enough to read the book. It is
fantastic,
and anybody that knows me knows that I'm
not just blowing blowing smoke up someone's ass
to be nice.
It is a very good book. It's
it's well written.
(47:01):
It's in a very easily digestible way. It's
relatable. It's funny. It's heartwarming.
It's all the things. If you haven't read
it plus Penny does her own audible or
audio
version of this. So no excuses if you
have a hard time reading and fall asleep
like I do when you're reading hard copies.
You can listen to it on, audible version.
(47:22):
You know what? Somebody told me in a
podcast the other day that was just extremely
flattering, and I absolutely loved it. She said
that my book
shows
shows us humanity.
Mhmm.
Shows us what humanity looks like is what
she said. So it shows us what humanity
looks like. And I just love that. I
(47:43):
just thought, wow. That's
that was so flattering. I mean, it's the
highest compliment, I think, because I I believe
that's what I was really going for without
ever really in my mind thinking I want
this book to be
about human
Yeah. Human nature and humanity.
And then, like, I knew that I think
(48:03):
that's what I was going for, but I
didn't have those words to describe it. And
so I just was like, oh, that's
I love that she said that. Yeah.
Well, anything else you want the people to
know about if, I mean, assuming
the next time we start recording for season
three, there may or may not be a
TikTok, so find everybody on the other platforms.
(48:25):
You guys oh my gosh. Yeah.
Instagrams.
So I'll do mine, then you do yours.
Alright. I'm on Instagram. I'm on TikTok if
it's still here. I'm on Instagram,
YouTube.
I'm on
Facebook.
I'm hospice nurse, penny everywhere.
I'm also on substack, which is what I
consider my hospice nurse, penny unfiltered.
(48:48):
Yes. I've noticed.
And I'm hospice nurse Penny there too.
I'm hospice nurse Penny on a red note
just to be defiant of our government.
And, I'm not really posting that much on
there anymore because people keep telling me I
need to put Mandarin subtitles, and I don't
know how to do that. And I have
a website called hospicenursepenny.com,
(49:08):
and you can find information about everywhere that
I'm at and my book on that website.
I should have started with that because that
would have been a lot shorter. Take away,
Hallie. On that website, you also have other
helpful links like the NHPCO that we were
talking about earlier.
I do. Yes. Yes. And and Medicare compare
and and what to ask hospice agencies to
interview them, and it will soon have the
(49:29):
question when Hallie reminds me to put it
on there.
Do you offer comfort therapies?
Yes. Yes.
Alright, Hallie? For me, I tried to be
hospice Hallie, h a l l e y,
everywhere that there's a thing.
So TikTok, Instagram,
blue sky,
(49:50):
substack,
although I'm gonna be on Facebook.
I'm gonna be honest, though. I'm not really
posting a lot right now.
I was posting quite a bit and then,
you know, the world. Meta.
Well, I did get mad at meta and
also the world. And
Yeah. It's, you know, it's exhausting. I am
(50:10):
working full time. Not that that's an excuse.
I know you're working too.
But,
you know, it's sometimes you you just get
in a funk, and you don't really wanna
talk about it because it's not gonna be
positive. But
or I I have times where I'm thinking,
oh, that'd be a great thing to talk
about. But then to sit down, to film
it, to edit it, I mean, that stuff
takes time. It's not just
(50:32):
a easy like, we have long form chats
on podcast. So the actual chart clips are
much harder, and they take a lot more
time.
And so I just I don't do it,
but I should get back into it. I
know people
want other perspectives.
We're losing our editing programs if TikTok goes
again. CapCut's gonna be gone. And
(50:53):
I know there are other ones, but
Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. We have to
learn them.
I know it's gonna really be hard if
TikTok goes away. I want it to go
away. I know it. I might have to
move to Canada. And I literally could just
drive across the border and,
create a
I've thought about it. I mean, I it's
it's
not far from it's forty minutes to Grand
(51:15):
Forks, BC.
Yeah. I could go there, and
and I can, like, find an Internet cafe
and get a I guess you have to
have, like, a Canadian,
email account
and a Canadian VPN and,
you know, make TikToks again. I don't know
where. Go to Tim Hortons. And do you
mind if I set up my tripod, my
(51:36):
ring light ring light here? I just wanna
do a couple little TikTok filming.
That's funny.
Well, we'll see what comes until season three.
Everybody take care of each other out there.
Remember here humanity
no matter what's going on in the world.
We got through the last four. We'll get
through the next four and whatever's after that.
(51:56):
But remember to live because
someday
We'll all be dead.
That's what I love about hospice is that
we we do so much more
to ensure the patient's comfort, not just physical
comfort, but emotional and spiritual well-being at the
end of their life too.
Welcome to the Death Happens podcast, an insider's
(00:22):
guide to dying. We're your insiders. I'm hospice
nurse Penny.
And I'm Hallie, hospice social worker. Well, Penny,
we've made it through season two, and we're
gonna do our wrap up today.
Right on. Right all the way through season
two. Here we go.
And fun fact, today, we're going to practice
doing this without any edits or cuts
(00:44):
because
for season three, that's gonna be our focus.
It's gonna be more of that,
coffee table, counter, you know, kitchen talk where
we're all just sitting around chatting instead of
a more formalized interview style. Right. Like a
party where everybody gravitates towards the kitchen, and
then we all sit on the counter and
drink beer. Those of us who don't drink
(01:05):
beer don't drink beer, but, you know you
can have a cider.
It's the classic classic party. Right? It all
Yes. Always moves into the kitchen. That's what
we're gonna do. There we go.
Well, let's talk about our first guest. We
had Cody Hefstetler.
He is a
chaplain palliative care chaplain as we all remember.
We love Cody.
(01:26):
Yes. We love Cody. Cody's got a fantastic
podcast called Dying to Tell You Mhmm. Where
he actually interviews
people who are dying, which is
really great. I mean, we can gain so
much insight by talking to people who are
dying. As long as we can acknowledge the
fact that they're dying,
most people do wanna talk about how they
(01:46):
feel about it.
Well, and even during season two, Cody has
integrated this new process process of having those
caring conversations with folks like us,
where
he's talking to people that are providing the
care for those dying people, which I love.
Right. Yes. I actually was a guest on
his podcast.
Recently. I, mine will come out before this
(02:06):
episode airs, so
we'll we'll see how that goes. Oh,
I didn't know. That's awesome. So glad you
were on it. Yeah. It's wonderful. I love
it. And, you know,
I just I love
I love well, we're gonna talk about chaplains
more because we also had another fantastic chaplain
on here, and we're gonna get to that
later. But, yeah, I I just love the
(02:29):
insight that we get from from our chaplains.
It's it's amazing.
Alright. My new favorite female crush, doctor Sammy
Winemaker,
was guest number two. Yes. I Yes. Remember,
like, heart eyes,
you know, hearts everywhere talking to her during
the day, And then I relived it as
(02:50):
I was editing the podcast and wrote to
her. I was like, oh, Sammy. Just
every single thing she talked about, everything she
works with Sienna on
is so much in line with what we're
doing. I just love her so much. I
do too. I I do too. She is
one of the
probably the first people that I really started
kinda having a what do they call it?
(03:10):
A parasocial relationship
with,
through through TikTok. Just immediately loved her videos.
She's just got such a calming presence, and
she's so smart and just Mhmm. Not just
smart. Like, not smart just smart because she's
a doctor and she's trained and she's skilled,
but wise. She's just so wise from her
role in palliative care. And the book is
(03:31):
amazing.
And also, spoiler alert,
there's a workbook coming out. Yes. And I
got to have a sneak peek at it,
and it is fantastic.
And her book is so good. I've I
have she sent me
she sent me the book, and then she
sent a whole bunch of books to me
and hospice nurse Julie when we did a
retreat in North Carolina. She sent, like, 50
books for our guests.
(03:52):
So we had some leftover.
So I took those, gave them all away,
ended up recently having to buy a new
book because I'm always giving these books away
because they're so great. And the last person
that I,
gave a book to
told me that it was so helpful. Her
husband's got cancer
and it was so helpful. She read it
and then she was reading it through a
(04:13):
second time with her husband. Mhmm. So that
book is called hope for the best plan
for the rest, which is
just
very appropriately titled. I love it. I'm I'm
such a great book. Do a special little,
social media plug for her book and your
book when it came out.
So, yes, hope for the best plan for
the rest. Also, the waiting room revolution
(04:34):
podcast with her Oh, yes. Doctor Ciencio, and
they interview some just fantastic people too.
Was on that one too? Yes.
Well, our favorite social media crush, Andrew,
the planty merce, who is
fantastically
on Patreon now Yeah. Was our third guest
(04:56):
and our recurrent guest. We love to have
him on.
Yeah. And and what I really loved about,
Andrew being on is his perspective
on death in the ICU.
Yeah. Which we actually got to talk about
this time. Yes. Because we didn't do we
weren't just fangirling over his
amazing,
videos and his new series that should be
(05:17):
on Netflix,
meanwhile in the break room. But,
yeah, we we actually did talk to him
about his role as an ICU nurse and
and how death is in the ICU, and
it's really different.
And that sometimes people who are
going through all of this
treatment and everything that they go through, it's
(05:38):
harder for them to to let go of
their person who's who's gone through all that
and let them die a peaceful death. Whereas
people who have, like, the more sudden traumatic
things, it's often easier for families to be
like, yeah. Let's let's just go ahead and
and do
comfort care. You know, I get a question
a lot about comfort care. What is the
(05:58):
difference between comfort care and hospice?
And so what I usually tell people is
there's not really a difference in practice.
It's still the same thing. We are still
taking away medications that are no longer beneficial,
and we're not gonna check vitals as often.
We're not trying to do curative treatment
or preventative treatment. We're just meeting people where
(06:19):
they're at and giving them medications to stay
comfortable until they
die a natural death, a n d allow
natural death.
The difference is
that hospice is a program.
And if you're on comfort care in a
hospital, you're not you're not getting the hospice
program.
You're just comfort care. You're getting this, like,
(06:41):
physical
type of care. Whereas hospice, if you're on
a hospice program, you get the comfort care,
but then you also have the additional services
that hospice provides. So the chaplain, the social
worker,
the the aide, the nurse, more eyes on
the person in which is what I really
like. So and especially in a nursing home,
and they do comfort care in nursing homes
too. But what I really like is when
(07:02):
hospice is on board, there are more eyes
on the patient. There's more there's more that's
being seen,
you know, and and you could feel more
comfortable that your person is being well taken
care of because we have more people going
in there to check on them and to
make sure that they're being well taken care
of. And then, of course, there's bereavement services
that happens after that person dies. That's a
part of the hospice program. And the other
(07:23):
thing that people need to know is that
many hospice agencies will offer bereavement services
to people who are grieving the death of
a person within the last year, even if
that person wasn't on hospice. Mhmm. A lot
of hospices provide that service. So I always
tell people, look. If you're even if they
died in a car crash, if you've experienced
the loss of a person
(07:44):
within the last year, you can call a
hospice agency and ask if they'll provide you
with grief support services.
And they often do that. I know my
agency does that. Does yours do that, Hallie?
Yeah. It does. Mhmm. Yeah. I think most
do.
Most nonprofits, let's put it that way. I
don't know about for profits. Yeah. That's, you
know, it's one more thing to be looking
(08:05):
for. And Yes.
As we're talking about this, like, kind of
education piece for ICU and the difference between
comfort and hospice,
of course, being able to be home with
extra support is a benefit for the hospice
program
And remembering that hospice is not just support
for the patient. It is support for the
family, for that circle of support that is
(08:26):
keeping you, you know, able to be home
or at a facility or whatever, but they're
getting the support too. It's that holistic care.
Right. Right. I actually just filmed
a video about that
just
before we started this podcast,
talking about how
people who are dying, their biggest fear is
(08:47):
usually there's like, they don't usually fear what
happens after we die. In my experience, my
patients aren't when they tell me I'm scared
and I ask, what are you scared of?
It's not usually
what happens after we die. It's almost like
that's off the table now. It doesn't matter
anymore. It's what is dying gonna be like
for me
and how is my family gonna do without
me? 99%.
(09:08):
Yeah. Will they be okay? And telling them
that we have grief support services
and that we take care. We are the
only
health care providers
who actually care for the whole, like you
say, the whole family. Yeah. Like, not just
the patient.
You know, we we care for everyone in
in
psychosocial, emotional, spiritual needs. Physically, we don't because
(09:31):
they're not our patient. Right. Although that doesn't
mean that we can't steer them in the
direction if we see something happening. But Yeah.
But that's what I love about hospice is
that we we do so much more
to ensure that patient's comfort, not just physical
comfort, but emotional and spiritual well-being at the
end of their life too.
Yes. Let's hope that nothing changes about the
(09:52):
Medicare
benefit on that, but we won't talk about
that today. Oh. We won't talk about that
today. So get me started.
The other thing I recently learned about was
the statistics that hospitals have to deal with
recently learned about,
that that hospitals get judged by how many
deaths they have,
(10:13):
which really I mean, I guess I get
it. What did you know about that? It
well, first of all, it blows my mind.
I I
am shocked that there
that part of the comparison that consumers can
do is look and see how many deaths
a hospital has had.
And I would not have even thought as
a consumer of hospitals that that would even
matter to me because it's a hospital
(10:36):
and people die.
Like Right. But maybe that's because I'm biased
and I work in a death positive and
all consuming death world.
Yes. That
yeah. And so that makes a lot more
sense to me
as the clinician that's getting hearing stories of
people being pushed out of the hospital when
(10:56):
they're coming on to hospice and things like
that, that there's this pressure from hospitals on
their side
to get people out because they don't want
them dying in the hospital, which is kinda
funny because we all culturally started that. Like,
let's put them in the hospital, and now
And let them try. Trying to go in
the other yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So talk about
that as a compliance person. Yeah. They don't
they don't want their death rate to be
(11:17):
higher. A death rate looks bad on the
hospital. It makes the hospital look like they're
not able to save people.
Which is insane to me. It is. It's
insane. And so they want us to put
people on hospice because they don't have to
count the death. If they died on hospice,
hospice, it doesn't count against their
bottom line of
death rate. And so that's why they do
it. And and sometimes they do it in
(11:38):
ways that are not
I won't say they're unethical.
I'll just say they're not legal.
Let's just I mean, let's just briefly talk
about the fact that actively so
in order for someone to be in a
hospital,
not a hospice care center, but a hospital,
and on hospice,
(11:59):
that would mean that they're under the general
inpatient or GIP benefit of hospice,
which means
they have
untreated or unmanaged symptoms that need a hospital
level care. Right. Actively dying
is not an unmanaged symptom.
No.
There can be symptoms that are unmanaged during
that process. But generally speaking,
(12:22):
that's not the case.
Right. And once they are
like, they might go in there and have
these symptoms
that need acute symptom management, skilled nursing twenty
four seven, titration of medications,
different medications being tried, then we get them
comfortable. Now they're actively dying. They don't meet
general inpatient anymore. And it's so it's a
(12:44):
slippery slope because we don't wanna put a
person who's actively dying in an ambulance and
send them home. Yeah. That would be unethical.
We don't wanna do that. But yet we're
also told we're not supposed to be able
to bill for general inpatient
when they're in the hospital
actively dying. And they're not meeting that that,
eligibility
(13:05):
requirement. And so
it's it's fucked up is what it is.
And,
it's I mean, I'll I'll save their soapbox
for later because we don't have time to
get into the whole trauma of having to
tell families.
Yeah. There there's nothing I can do. We
don't provide caregiving, and I know you can't
afford it, and there's no one to do
it. But they're just gonna have to
(13:27):
stay home with limited resources or revoke hospice
support and end up in the hospital, which
is terrible because there's nothing to keep that
oh, okay. Okay. Okay. I'm backing up. I'm
backing up. I I don't wanna get into
this.
I know because I could, like I'm just
thinking about how we had this
glimmer of hope that that there was gonna
be
(13:48):
caregiving as a part of the Medicare,
but that's not the direction we're gonna be
going now because we don't have the same
administration that cares about people. This will be
our, kitchen countertop discussion for next season. We
could talk about this more.
Yes. Back to the Yes. Back to Andrew,
our favorite plant team, Marce. He's amazing. Continues
(14:09):
to do amazing.
I forgot we were even talking about, Andrew.
We're we're only three in right now. We
have no more. That's okay. That's well, actually,
the next one is just us. So episode
four was
us talking about deathbed phenomenon, which I think
is everyone's favorite topic when they're listening to
(14:30):
death providers.
Yes. Yes. So you'll have to listen to
that because we're not gonna recap that one.
Yes.
I can listen to that one. Yeah. That
was episode four. Episode five, we switched gears
a bit. We did something that maybe was
unexpected. We talked to
Susie Singer Carter. Am I saying your name
right? Yep. Yep. She is many things.
(14:52):
She's an actress. She's a producer. She's a
writer. She's a podcaster.
And she is an advocate for folks, particularly
in the long term care arena.
Right. Yeah.
Yeah. That was a very enlightening conversation,
and,
you know, she did have a terrible hospice
experience with her mother. It was not good.
(15:14):
A lot of that had to do with
the nursing home her mother was in. It
was during COVID too, which Yeah. Added on
some more layers of difficulty.
But she came to find out that the
hospice agency was owned by the same corporation
that owned the nursing home. And so they
had some practices that were
again, unethical is the word that comes to
(15:36):
mind. And, and she had a terrible experience
with that. And and the real the important
takeaway from that, I think, that people really
need to understand is that you have rights
for a hospice patient. You have the right
to transfer to another hospice agency if you
are not happy with the one you have.
There's always gonna be an ombudsman
(15:56):
or a a state number that's provided to
you when you have your person go into
a nursing home that you can call with
your complaints. You should call the state. All
nursing homes are regulated by the state,
and you can complain. I've actually done that.
My mother in law's in a nursing home,
and I have called several times and complained
to the state, and they've investigated.
(16:17):
Mhmm. And, you know, you do have rights.
You have you have the right to revoke
hospice at any time. Yeah.
And take your person to the hospital if
if that's what you wanna do.
But but I think that's, like, the important
thing that people need to know that that
Susie did not know. She didn't know these
things and, was surprised when I told her
about them in the podcast that I was
(16:39):
on of hers. Mhmm. She was not aware.
And so people really need to know their
rights. And the place that you can go
to find out what your rights are is
the nhpc0.org
website,
and they have a section there for,
family members and Mhmm. Patients. And you can
go there, and then that explains more about
what you can do, what your rights are.
(16:59):
Because reading through
the certificate or the
the, conditions of participation. The I always call
them the cops because that's what I'm used
to. So I'm like, what does that stand
for? Conditions
of there's more than that. There's the conditions
of participation. There's the hospice benefit manual chapter
nine. There's the, CFRs,
you know, the code of federal regulations. There's
(17:21):
all these different places where all this information
lives. Yeah. And I know all of it.
But for a regular person who's
that's not their job to know this stuff,
it's hard to find that information. So really
going to nhpc0.org
is a really great place to or your
state hospice.
A lot of states have
(17:42):
their own hospice organizations.
I know there's one in Washington and Oregon
and California.
I think most states probably have an organization
that helps with,
understanding what your rights are. Yeah. And we
definitely got more into that during the podcast
about specifics
that people can do. But, yeah, know your
rights.
NHPCO,
(18:03):
the National Hospice and Palliative Care Organization,
is always a great resource and just, you
know, ask questions. Just know that you can
be an advocate.
Yeah. That that was a little hard one
because,
it it's always hard to not be defensive
when we're talking about hospice.
Yeah.
I feel like it was a little easier,
(18:24):
on that one, easier than I thought it
was gonna be, I think, because
I wasn't sure how much of her story
was
long term care related versus hospice. And, also,
as I've said before and you've said before,
every time any hospice has a bad review,
it's bad for all of us. Right. And
so
it's also important, though, to know, just like
(18:45):
everything in the news, just because you hear
one bad thing, the percentage of that is
still pretty small, and, also, it's important to
hear about it, know about it, fix it.
So Right. I think both things can be
true. We can know about them. We can
talk about them, and it doesn't mean that
every hospice experience is gonna be bad.
Yeah. Right. It's true. It I feel the
(19:06):
same way always. I'm a little defensive when
I hear that somebody had bad
Mhmm. Care.
I and I think more so when that
when,
not only am I hearing they had bad
care, but they're
they're equating that to all hospice. Yeah. Like,
all hospice is bad because of my one
experience that I had. And that makes me
very defensive, but I get how you could
(19:27):
have that
that feeling. Like, hospice failed me. And,
you
know? For sure.
Well, our next guest was a lawyer, which
you might not expect on a death and
dying podcast. But Andy Shue,
a lawyer in Washington and California was kind
enough to come on and talk to us
(19:47):
all about probate
and all the things we need to know.
That that I
there were lots of things I didn't know
I didn't know. Mhmm. And,
that was a really, really I actually have
an appointment with a lawyer,
I think it's next Monday to go and
have her look over our wheels because he
definitely
(20:07):
gave me some information that I didn't have
when we went and got our wheels from
some little
wheel factory that cranks them out for cheap
and isn't probably what we need. And Yeah.
So,
yeah, he he he was really enlightening for
sure.
Very. I I love his reference that you
really need to talk to someone local in
(20:28):
your area because there are things you're just
not gonna think about
that pertain to local law,
and they're going to know that. That's what
they're paid to do. And a reputable lawyer
likely will give you that first free consult
to know if you even need a lawyer.
Right.
Right. So Yeah. So if you're in Washington
or California, look up Andy Schuss.
His information is in the show notes. Yeah.
(20:51):
Yeah. He was really good. I really liked
that episode a lot.
So the next episode was episode seven where
we took a little trip,
if you
recall.
Oh, yeah.
We talked to Lisa Jaeger all about
psychedelic assisted psychotherapies
and specifically around end of life and death
(21:11):
anxiety.
I have an idea. We should do that
again with her. Only next time, let's really
take a trip.
I have taken a trip. I'm not sure
I wanna do that again. But Oh, I've
taken lots of trips, but they weren't guided
by anybody.
They were of my own free stupid will.
I had never had anybody,
like, trying to make sure I didn't jump
(21:33):
out the window and think that a bag
of onions in the basement was a monster.
Well, if you're actually getting some treatment by
a reputable source,
even if you're having
what would be a negative experience or something
that's not
happy, lovey, the world is connected,
(21:54):
then you're going to have that professional guidance
to get you through that and integrate it.
That is the whole
really, what I want people to take away
from that episode is be careful of these
places that will offer medications and no therapeutic
support.
Yeah. Yeah. I really wanna see us go
in the direction of having that available for
hospice patients
(22:15):
Mhmm. More more widely available because I do
think it could be really helpful for a
lot of people,
to be able to process their own death,
ahead of time. It's gonna make for I'd
love to know if there are statistics about
that too. Like, do they have any
like, even anecdotally, do people who go through
that have a better death experience?
Anecdotally, yes. I can tell you a %
(22:37):
for sure. Your your agency
does
do this. We have. The the tricky part,
I think, is there was a study going
on, and the criteria
for a study
always requires a bit more time than you
would generally have in hospice.
I really would like to see this more
in a palliative setting,
(22:58):
which were most of the clinics were palliative,
so they were able to get more patients.
The ones that were participating that were actual
hospices only,
they were having a harder time just because
of the time frame and exclusions.
But I think in a palliative world, like
we've talked about, right, palliative doesn't mean you
have six months or less. You have a
lot more time. Right? When you get that
diagnosis, you're eligible for palliative care. We'll keep
(23:21):
hammering that home. Right.
But if that could be available upstream, I
think that'd be so beneficial.
It it would be incredible.
Yeah. Yeah. I I think it would be
too. I I do. I I think there's
gonna be a generation of people who it's
not gonna be,
like,
older people who are
(23:41):
just say no. Mhmm. You know, are gonna
be
not maybe as interested in trying it because
of the, you know
The stigma. Idea. The stigma. The stigma of,
you know, doing
psychedelics. But but I think as we go
along and younger people are
in hospice, it might be something that's,
(24:02):
you know, used more often. There's lots of
I always think about, I don't know if
I told you this before, but I keep
thinking when someday if I go on hospice,
if I'm lucky enough to to go on
hospice,
I want nitrous.
Did I tell you that before? I want
nitrous. Talked about that off the pause.
Like, I want nitrous.
I wanna I'm gonna call my dentist and
(24:23):
tell him to bring me a tank, and
I'm gonna be using laughing gas. Yep. PS,
that's not actually available for anybody listening, so
don't ask us for that. Right. It's not.
It's not. But they do carry it on,
ambulances.
They do use it. And I know this
because when I was working in a hospice
care center,
a colleague of mine had an allergic reaction
to some lilies that were brought in.
(24:46):
And so I she was calling for a
nurse and running down to the other side
of the building where her office was, and
I was going after her. And and she
grabs her purse and she gives me an
EpiPen and hands it to me and says,
put it in my thigh.
And I took the EpiPen
to pull this cap off, turn it around,
and boom, it was upside down.
(25:08):
And I got myself in the thumb, and
it went right into the bone.
Oh. Now she's having an anaphylactic reaction, and
I'm having
epinephrine in my system. And I'm like, woah.
And so then the ambulance came, and
they had to give me nitrous to get
it out of my it was in the
in the bone.
And I had to so they gave me
(25:29):
nitrous. So that's how I know. That makes
me a little sick to my stomach. Yes.
I wanna tell you something. I wrote to
the company, and I told them what happened.
And I said, I am a nurse,
and I pulled the cap off and didn't
know
that that when I turned it over that
that wasn't the business end that I pulled
the cap off. That was the end where
(25:49):
the button on it. That's what I would
have thought.
Yeah. And so they actually
put a red thing on there now instead
of orange, and they have a practice one.
So and I know this because my husband
has bee allergy, so we have epinephrine pens.
And it came with a practice one, and
it's well marked now. Like, it's really well
marked so that you don't do that. Because
(26:10):
I was like Yeah. So if you didn't
put your epinephrine pen into your thumb,
you're welcome.
I fixed that for you. I fixed it.
Yeah. I would have thought the same thing.
The cap is the part with the pointy
part. You know? Yep. I know. Right? And
then I had to go to urgent care
because so the doctor, when he pulled it
out, he he was, like,
(26:32):
you know, massaging to get the because what
happens when you put epinephrine in is it
cuts off the circulation.
Oh, no. You don't wanna put it yeah.
You don't wanna put it in your so
there's a chance you can lose your thumb.
So, you know, he did this for a
long time. He was like, keep an eye
on it. If it's if it it pinked
up.
And he says, but if it if it
loses its color, you know, go to the
urgent care. And sure enough, later that evening,
(26:53):
it started turning white. Oh my gosh. I
went to the urgent care, and they had
to inject it with something that restored the
circulation to my thumb. Yeah. It was an
ordeal.
That's a mistake story.
I know. But but look how much you're
educating people on this. This is important things
to know. Yeah. This is what we're talking
about. The epinephrine pen. Yes. Thank you.
(27:16):
Alright. Our next episode, episode eight, was just
us again. We were talking about
the end of life process
and specifically around diseases that may be considered
self harm by some.
Yeah. And I think that's a great episode
to watch too. I just saw
somebody that's supposed to be
(27:37):
potentially heading up the Department of Health and
Human Services
speaking to,
the fact that people who smoke cigarettes and
give themselves lung cancer shouldn't be a burden
on others in society by costing the medical
system more money. And I was just like
Wow.
That is, like, not
cool, buddy. That's not cool because people
(27:59):
especially when we think about the tobacco industry
and how in bed with the government they
were and why people smoke and how addictive
it is and
yeah. It's like
anyway, yeah, we don't blame people
for their diseases.
We don't blame them. We don't we don't
blame them.
You know? We listen and we don't judge.
We listen. We listen and we don't judge.
(28:22):
Addiction issues are
very hard to overcome.
And then after we've talked about how many
times,
you don't have to have smoked to have
had lung cancer.
Right. That's right.
That is absurd.
I
I'm not even gonna start talking about it
because it's just gonna piss me off. So,
(28:42):
just go back and listen to the episodes.
We do talk a lot about the fact
that even if you suspect it because it's
a stigma around a particular disease, it doesn't
mean that person did that thing to get
that disease. And even if they did, they're
still a human and they deserve care, and
that's how we're gonna treat them. Compassionate
care. We don't judge. We listen and we
don't judge. Yes. We care about this without
(29:04):
judgment. Yeah.
Well, I am emulating our next guest,
the Spitfire side of things,
which is Em, that Spitfire nurse.
I wanna have Em on again sometime when
I'm not having to record from my studio,
which I did. I believe we had a
snow I think we had snow at that
time or something, and I and I couldn't
(29:25):
get down to my studio.
And,
it was a technical fucking disaster.
So
Every season, there's at least one. That was
the one. Yeah. Ugh.
Yeah. Poor m. She's so
adorable and lively, and I'm just so sad
that I had to use still shots for
(29:46):
the YouTube video for that because
it was just it was a disaster.
She was such a trooper for that interview
because oh my god. Smart, and she's so
smart. And
and she's she's young, but she is so
smart. She's really
got her head wrapped around,
you know, the oncology palliative care
(30:06):
world and has great advice and makes adorable
videos and is
really a great educator.
Yeah. And so, like, we need to have
her back again.
And but in the meantime, even just, like,
listening to that podcast is still good even
though we talk each other constantly because of
the delay. And
(30:28):
Total total fuck up on the technical
on that, but still a good good episode.
Yeah. We managed to pull out the snippets.
I think it was not quite as bad
as our season one technology glitches. So,
thankfully, that was really the the one big
one that we had an issue with and
we got through it and and was great.
So, yeah, everybody go check out M's page.
That's Spitfire nurse. She's great. Yes.
(30:51):
Our next interview was about hospice, massage, and
aromatherapy. We spoke with Tiana Joy.
Is Joy her real last name? I think
so. Far as I know. I love that.
I love it. Tiana Joy. She's very joyful,
and I loved that she shared her past
with us because she talked about being a
bartender. And I was like, girl,
(31:13):
we live the same life, I think.
But she's,
just very,
in tune.
I would love to
to have her
I I loved the way she talked about
working on people and how she
you know, like, she's so in tune with
with trauma and needing, like, this talking about
(31:34):
the scars and how Yeah. You know,
she needs to know how to be able
to touch those scars, what caused them. Mhmm.
And just, you know, very, very,
I could just see her being just super,
I don't know, like,
mindful and
healing healing. You know? There's a massage and
then there's, like, healing touch, and she's very
(31:55):
much healing touch.
Mhmm.
No. I think that discussion was really informative
for folks that have not experienced
the integrative therapies that we can provide through
hospice, and not all hospices have everything at
their disposal. So that's an important thing to
ask when you're looking for what's available.
But, you know, looking at things like massage
(32:17):
or aromatherapy
or energy work
or acupuncture
or, you know, music therapy, these are all
things that are not from the core team
of hospice, not part of the Medicare benefit
per se, but that are amazing
healing things that can be integrated with the
rest that aren't pharmaceutical
or
psychological or that kind of thing.
(32:38):
Yeah. There are some there is some language
in the cops about alternative therapies, but it
isn't like, it's I think it is, like,
more suggested than required.
Some things are required
like,
PT, OT,
SLP, speech language pathology,
not for restorative,
(32:58):
but to help people meet people where they're
at with Mhmm. Like, the OTs are great
about what kind of,
assistive devices do you need, that type of
thing. Those are, like, more, like, required, but
then other therapies, comfort therapies are,
like, nice to have. Mhmm. It's mentioned in
the COPS, but not required, but many, many
(33:20):
hospices do provide those a lot of times
with volunteers. A lot of agencies use volunteers
for that.
So yeah. If you're Or foundations.
Or foundations. Yeah. If you're shopping for a
a hospice and, again, just a reminder, you
get to shop for a hospice. You don't
have to go with just one that was
re you were referred to,
and you can look at the Medicare compare
(33:41):
website for a hospice agency.
That's a question to ask. In fact Mhmm.
I need to add that question to my
website because I do have a list of
questions that you should ask, and that's not
one that's on there.
So I need to remember to put that
on there that you can ask them. Do
they offer any alternative therapies like massage,
thenatology,
(34:01):
which is music music therapy,
aromatherapy.
Do they offer? Is it a one touch?
Is there one more massage?
Right. Because some will do, like, one massage,
and that's all you get, which is more
than some others do. But, yeah, asking
yeah. I need to take it. I don't
have a pen with me. I need to
take a note on that. I'll make a
note for you. Put it in my vault
(34:23):
here.
In the vault, out the vault.
Our episode 11 guest was our bicoastal
boy. That is David from dead talks,
our Staten Island, Californian.
Yes. David from dead talks. Love David. I
mean,
(34:43):
he is just something else. I
every time I talk to David,
he opens my mind to something new. Mhmm.
He has such great perspective on things.
And it's probably because he really
he's, like, out there talking. He's he's kind
of like Cody in a way. Yeah. In
that he is talking to a lot of
(35:03):
people
who are
enmeshed in death in one way or another,
whether they're dying themselves, they've recently lost someone.
And not just people that lost somebody on
hospice,
but well, I don't know why I'm saying
lost. I hate lost so much. It's not
like you can't find them. They died. Right?
Not just somebody that died on hospice, but
but death in general because Yeah. You know,
(35:24):
David's father died in
the Eleven. '11.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. He when David was a kid.
He's great. He's very engaging and easy to
listen to,
and easy to talk to. But, also, like
you're saying, I love that he
is willing to talk to people of all
different perspectives about all different angles of death
(35:44):
and dying. It's it's really fantastic. So I
haven't listened to David on the streets yet,
dead talks on the streets.
But I have listened to some episodes and
just really always a great perspective and great
interview.
Yeah. Well, he's the right person to be
doing those interviews because, again, he just
he opens my mind and which tells me
that he's very open minded. You know? And
(36:06):
I know that he is. And and so
it's it's just so interesting because he really
he just asks great questions of his guests.
He's really good at that. I really like
that.
Alright. Our last interview
is your other favorite chaplain
that I mean, I'm telling you,
if Hank was single
(36:29):
and if I was single
I mean, I am very,
and I have always loved Hank, and his
books have been in the hospices that I've
worked at, so I've known about him. And
then he reached out to me
probably,
a year after I started doing social media
and wanted to have a Zoom call and
(36:50):
just meet with me, and we talked.
And, but I didn't really get to know
him. Like, I now know him until we
had our podcast with him. Yeah. And,
hi, love that guy.
I mean Hank Dunn. Right? I don't have
it in front of me. Yeah. Is his
last name, Dunn? Yeah. Hank Dunn, Hard Choices
(37:10):
for Loving People.
Mhmm. Oh, Penny's he's gonna go get the
book here.
Yeah. Hard choices for loving people, and then
this is the other one he wrote called,
light in the shadows,
which is meditations
while living with a life threatening illness, hard
choices for loving people I have
at home.
(37:30):
Yeah.
I mean, he is a pioneer. And just
like Barbara Carnes, he is a pioneer when
it comes to hospice care.
Wise
beyond words.
Wise beyond words. I mean, the guy is
he's incredible. And and his book is
(37:51):
it's timeless. And it's interesting because what he
has written about
is still
relevant
today because
things haven't changed enough in health care Yeah.
For us to stop doing everything.
You know? And he just it's it's so
good. His book is a great book, like
a companion to, I think,
(38:13):
doctor Sammy's book. Mhmm. Yeah. Hope for the
best, plan for the rest. Those two books
go to get to together good because they
really guide people to ask the right questions
and to have more knowledge about what it
is that's happening.
Yeah. I agree. And he's also a great
example to people of what a hospice chaplain
can be, that it's not,
this
(38:34):
religious,
you know, I'm gonna go proselytize to you
situation that people imagine that it is.
Yes. Yeah. That's that's the other thing too,
because he's strong in his own faith,
but he's also
he's like
like the ideal chaplain. All chaplains should
(38:54):
be multidenominational
in their practice. That's a requirement to be
a chaplain. You have to have a master's
degree in divinity to be a chaplain. So
you might practice
a faith, but you have to know everything
about every other faith. That's a requirement.
Yeah. Their their real requirement is to meet
people where they are just like we do.
We don't have to have the same philosophy.
(39:15):
We just have to be there to guide
you through end of life.
Exactly. Exactly. I would love for him to
be my chaplain if I was on hospice.
He would be
him and Cody, because Cody, same thing. I
get to say they both have the same
vibe. Don't forget Steven from last season.
Oh, and Steven. Yes. That's right. But they
like, they do they all have the same
(39:36):
I mean, and all chaplains do have the
same vibe. It's not about Yeah. I'm gonna
tell you what you're gonna believe. Mhmm. I'm
gonna take you where you need to go.
I'm gonna meet you where you're at, and
I'm gonna serve you how you best
are served. Yes. What's best for you.
It's I it's so, like, yeah. I love
those guys. Yeah. So great. The chaplains is
(39:56):
premier hospice chaplains on this pod. We have.
We have. And and the thing about chaplains
too and I've got another one for next
season, by the way. But the thing about
chaplains is Or spiritual care. I know we
talked about that last season, but
calling it spiritual care too.
Care. Like, let's stop calling them chaplains, but
spiritual
(40:17):
care is that,
you know,
they're so underused.
They're underutilized.
In hospital, people just decline the chaplain services
before they ever meet them. Mhmm. And so
my if if I could have
everybody who's watching or listening to this pod
have one takeaway, it's this.
(40:37):
Meet
the chaplain.
Do not decline the chaplain before you meet
the chaplain. If you meet the chaplain and
they're it's not a good fit,
it's not a good fit. But don't just
out of hand dismiss the chaplain services or
the spiritual care services because
they
can
do so much for you that you don't
(40:58):
even know exists. Like,
they are the best listeners.
Oh, yeah. That's right. I've got two chaplains
for the next
I didn't think it because I just thought
of my other favorite one. Yeah. J s
park.
Yeah. So, I mean, I've never met a
chaplain that I
(41:19):
did not trust completely to be somebody who
I would want at my bedside if I
was dying. And I am
very anti religion, and I am probably pagan
agnostic Buddhist. I don't know.
And and every chaplain I've ever met, I
would say I would trust them at my
bedside.
Yeah. For sure. Not proselytize.
(41:40):
Well and, again, just like the rest of
the team, don't forget that they're also there
for the circle of support.
Yes. Exactly. Exactly. They're there. And if and
if you're dying and you're the hospice patient
and you've converted and you're Jewish, but your
mom's a Catholic and your dad's a Christian,
the chaplain can serve all three of you.
Mhmm.
Exactly. Not at the same time, but you
(42:02):
know?
Or find a way to compromise to serve
the patient's needs. Compromise. Yeah. Ah, yes. So
they could probably do that.
I bet you they could. I bet you
they'd find the common ground among the three
religions and be able to meet all three
where they're at at the same time. Yeah.
Was that good? They are that good.
I was thinking I'm not not even kidding
about this, Hallie.
(42:23):
I was actually thinking about going back to
school
to get a master's in divinity and be
a chaplain.
I think it would be great. I was
recently thinking about that.
I don't know. So I have a bachelor's
right now, so I'd have to,
you know, I'd have to
take my master's. It's a lot of school.
I'm old. I'm a old lady, but, hey,
(42:43):
I'm retiring soon. I got nothing else to
do with my time.
Well Make good cuts. Know about that. Alright.
Now we've talked about our guest. Now we're
gonna talk about you, Penny.
So during this season,
you have finished and released your book. So
tell us about your book.
Yeah. I finished my book.
(43:04):
Questions I get often are, how long did
it take me to write? Well, first of
all, what's it called?
Okay. First of all, it's called Influencing Death,
Reframing Dying for Better Living. It's getting backwards.
No. I can read it. Actually oh, you
know what? It's backwards to me. It's so
weird. This is mirrored for me, but Influencing
Death, Reframing Dying for Better Living.
(43:24):
Yeah. So people ask me, why did I
write it? How long did it take me?
It took me, I would say, about eighteen
years because the stories that I've started writing
back when I was first a hospice nurse.
Mhmm.
And I wanted to
well, I I
I also have ADHD and how I think
you you know what about me now. I'm
(43:45):
good at starting things, but I'm not great
at finishing them. So eighteen years ago, I
started writing stories.
And then
a couple years before TikTok, I started,
wanting to write a screenplay because I didn't
like how medical
shows are so fake and they don't ever
show natural death, how it's really supposed to
(44:08):
look or really does look. They're great at
traumatic death. Boy, they can make realistic looking,
you know, death by zombies or a car
accident or whatever,
but they're not good at at natural death.
It's always crossing the hands over the heart,
closing the eyes. They look perfect. Their hair
is perfect. Their makeup's perfect. Then they take
a breath after they've said their
amazingly profound last words, and then they close
(44:30):
their eyes and die.
And that's not how it is. And I
wanted to I was, like, really thinking about
how could
medical shows be more authentic. And Amazon had
this amateur
writing
program,
and you could put your words in there,
and it would turn it into a script.
And Amazon would select amateur shows amateur shows
(44:51):
to make
as an Amazon show. Yeah. So I started
taking my stories and putting them in there
and trying to write this thing. My sister
and I were working on it together. I
we came up with the name Passing. It
was gonna be called Passing.
And, I had quite a lot of it
written, and then Amazon pulled the plug on
that whole thing. Oh, Amazon, if you're listening,
(45:12):
what the hell?
Yeah. So I was like, okay. Well, oh,
well.
So I I shelved it, and then I
found TikTok in 2020.
And
as I was telling stories, people started
saying I should write a book. And when
I got to have about a hundred thousand
followers, I thought maybe you should write a
(45:33):
book.
And then I wanted the book. So what's
it about? It's a memoir,
and it's about my journey in life, which
was quite rocky when I was younger. Drugs,
alcohol, jail, gave my son to his dad
to raise lots of
trauma.
And how I
overcame that, became a hospice nurse and what
(45:55):
being a hospice nurse and caring for dying
people has taught me about life and living.
And so that's really what it's about. And
so when I wanted to write this book,
I decided that I needed it to be
what I felt like my audience, quote, unquote,
people who follow me on TikTok and other
social media platforms
want to hear from me. Mhmm. And so
(46:17):
and so that's why it became this this
memoir really is because I knew that by
sharing parts of my life on my social
media that,
with people who follow me wanted to know
to know more about what makes a person
who goes into death care tick. Mhmm. Like
what, what leads you to it? What draws
you to it and and what is it
like to do it?
(46:39):
So that's
more than you probably wanted to know, Hallie.
Well, I already know because I have been
lucky enough to read the book. It is
fantastic,
and anybody that knows me knows that I'm
not just blowing blowing smoke up someone's ass
to be nice.
It is a very good book. It's
it's well written.
(47:01):
It's in a very easily digestible way. It's
relatable. It's funny. It's heartwarming.
It's all the things. If you haven't read
it plus Penny does her own audible or
audio
version of this. So no excuses if you
have a hard time reading and fall asleep
like I do when you're reading hard copies.
You can listen to it on, audible version.
(47:22):
You know what? Somebody told me in a
podcast the other day that was just extremely
flattering, and I absolutely loved it. She said
that my book
shows
shows us humanity.
Mhmm.
Shows us what humanity looks like is what
she said. So it shows us what humanity
looks like. And I just love that. I
(47:43):
just thought, wow. That's
that was so flattering. I mean, it's the
highest compliment, I think, because I I believe
that's what I was really going for without
ever really in my mind thinking I want
this book to be
about human
Yeah. Human nature and humanity.
And then, like, I knew that I think
(48:03):
that's what I was going for, but I
didn't have those words to describe it. And
so I just was like, oh, that's
I love that she said that. Yeah.
Well, anything else you want the people to
know about if, I mean, assuming
the next time we start recording for season
three, there may or may not be a
TikTok, so find everybody on the other platforms.
(48:25):
You guys oh my gosh. Yeah.
Instagrams.
So I'll do mine, then you do yours.
Alright. I'm on Instagram. I'm on TikTok if
it's still here. I'm on Instagram,
YouTube.
I'm on
Facebook.
I'm hospice nurse, penny everywhere.
I'm also on substack, which is what I
consider my hospice nurse, penny unfiltered.
(48:48):
Yes. I've noticed.
And I'm hospice nurse Penny there too.
I'm hospice nurse Penny on a red note
just to be defiant of our government.
And, I'm not really posting that much on
there anymore because people keep telling me I
need to put Mandarin subtitles, and I don't
know how to do that. And I have
a website called hospicenursepenny.com,
(49:08):
and you can find information about everywhere that
I'm at and my book on that website.
I should have started with that because that
would have been a lot shorter. Take away,
Hallie. On that website, you also have other
helpful links like the NHPCO that we were
talking about earlier.
I do. Yes. Yes. And and Medicare compare
and and what to ask hospice agencies to
interview them, and it will soon have the
(49:29):
question when Hallie reminds me to put it
on there.
Do you offer comfort therapies?
Yes. Yes.
Alright, Hallie? For me, I tried to be
hospice Hallie, h a l l e y,
everywhere that there's a thing.
So TikTok, Instagram,
blue sky,
(49:50):
substack,
although I'm gonna be on Facebook.
I'm gonna be honest, though. I'm not really
posting a lot right now.
I was posting quite a bit and then,
you know, the world. Meta.
Well, I did get mad at meta and
also the world. And
Yeah. It's, you know, it's exhausting. I am
(50:10):
working full time. Not that that's an excuse.
I know you're working too.
But,
you know, it's sometimes you you just get
in a funk, and you don't really wanna
talk about it because it's not gonna be
positive. But
or I I have times where I'm thinking,
oh, that'd be a great thing to talk
about. But then to sit down, to film
it, to edit it, I mean, that stuff
takes time. It's not just
(50:32):
a easy like, we have long form chats
on podcast. So the actual chart clips are
much harder, and they take a lot more
time.
And so I just I don't do it,
but I should get back into it. I
know people
want other perspectives.
We're losing our editing programs if TikTok goes
again. CapCut's gonna be gone. And
(50:53):
I know there are other ones, but
Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. We have to
learn them.
I know it's gonna really be hard if
TikTok goes away. I want it to go
away. I know it. I might have to
move to Canada. And I literally could just
drive across the border and,
create a
I've thought about it. I mean, I it's
it's
not far from it's forty minutes to Grand
(51:15):
Forks, BC.
Yeah. I could go there, and
and I can, like, find an Internet cafe
and get a I guess you have to
have, like, a Canadian,
email account
and a Canadian VPN and,
you know, make TikToks again. I don't know
where. Go to Tim Hortons. And do you
mind if I set up my tripod, my
(51:36):
ring light ring light here? I just wanna
do a couple little TikTok filming.
That's funny.
Well, we'll see what comes until season three.
Everybody take care of each other out there.
Remember here humanity
no matter what's going on in the world.
We got through the last four. We'll get
through the next four and whatever's after that.
(51:56):
But remember to live because
someday
We'll all be dead.
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