Murder in 4/4: The Jim Gordon Tragedy (Episode 168)

He was the beat behind some of rock’s greatest anthems—Layla, You’re So Vain, Rikki Don’t Lose That Number. A Grammy-winning drummer and a member of music royalty, Jim Gordon played with everyone from George Harrison to Frank Zappa. But behind the steady rhythm was a mind unraveling. Voices haunted him. Paranoia consumed him. And in 1983, it all came crashing down with the brutal murder of his own mother.

This episode dives deep into the rise, fall, and haunting legacy of Jim Gordon—a man whose genius couldn’t outrun his madness. That's today on Death in Entertainment.

Story by Brandon Preo

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Picture this. You're one of the greatest
drummers alive, the human metronome who kept the groove
for Eric Clapton, George Harrison, and The Beach Boys.
Your stick struck gold with classics like Layla.
But here's the twist. The man with the magic hands was
battling something much darker beneath the surface.
Jim Gordon went from studio legend to a headline nightmare.

(00:22):
The superstar drummer fell underthe thundercloud of
schizophrenia, and in 1983, in ashocking, bloody turn, he
crossed the terrible line from superstar sessions to a killing
that shocked everyone. This is the bizarre, bloody
backbeat of a musical legend gone mad.
That's today on Death in Entertainment.

(00:47):
Live from Los Angeles. 911 What is your emergency?
Here in Hollywood now 2 counts of murder, injury and death.
Oh my God, shocking new details.That has stung the entertainment
world. This makes me a little nervous.
The hair stood up on my arms. Just like in the movies, What
do? You call this thing anyway.
Death. In entertainment.

(01:10):
Greetings Dead O Universe, how the heck are you?
My name is Kyle Plouffe. Hello, and I am Jerry Aquino.
And I am Ben Kissel. Today we have a fantastic topic
for you, Jim Gordon. No, he's not just the
commissioner of Gotham, he is also a fantastic musician who's
LED a crazy life. And we are going to get into the

(01:30):
life of the drummer Jim Gordon. Today's story written by Patreon

(02:00):
member Brandon Prio. OK, so we're zooming in.
Oh, you're looking at a map? Yeah, yeah, I have the.
Yeah, it's open. Yeah, I'm seeing the man
urinated in his front yawn lawn.You better zoom in on USA Summer
1945. What kind of segue?
All right, No, I get it. Zoom in on the continent.

(02:23):
Yes. OK.
Have Google Maps open so you cantype in this address.
Yes, zoom in at 360. PU Ben's naked.
Outside Hello full moon. So it's USA Summer 1945, almost
80 years ago to this day. World War 2 is coming to an end.
Victory Day in Europe had come two months prior.

(02:44):
Victory Day in Asia would come soon after.
The number one song on the radioin America was Sentimental
Journey by Les Brown and his Orchestra featuring Doris Day.
OK. Anchors Away, starring Frank
Sinatra, Catherine Grayson and Gene Kelly, was about to become
the number one box office hit intheaters.
Love it. In the middle of it all, a child

(03:04):
is born. Known for his impeccable
technique, musical intuition, and ability to execute complex
fills, Jim Gordon's drumming became a defining element in
countless popular songs. His style was explosive, his
timing perfect, and presence on stage was unforgettable.
He played with incredible force and stamina, making him a go to

(03:25):
name in the Los Angeles elite recording scene.
I feel like stamina is an underrated attribute to a
drummer. You gotta keep going.
Yeah, you gotta go. If there's no room to stop,
yeah. You're gonna go and don't stop.
That's why the ladies like the drummer the most.
Yeah, 'cause they always yell don't stop and you're like, I'm
done. Yeah, yeah, pretty much.
And they're, they're also like they're they they have the

(03:47):
double hand coordination, they've got the double feet
coordination. Yeah, it's a lot of skill.
They get to pounding. You.
Know OK. He is even credited in the
invention of the future of musical genres such as hip hop
and disco. But behind all the success was a
man fighting demons no one couldsee.
The man who created disco had demons.

(04:07):
No way. Weird devil's music.
What? His contributions to rock and
pop music were monumental, yet his undiagnosed mental illness
led to a tragic downfall in the 1960s and 70s.
No serious rock fan viewed the drummer Jim Gordon with anything
but awe. By the 1980s, none of them
viewed him with anything but contempt.

(04:28):
Whoa, there's a price to creative genius.
There is, yeah. What changed?
Obviously we have Brian Wilson, who just recently passed away,
and I watched the documentary onhis life.
That was a slog for him. Living was not easy.
Yeah. That brain of his was like, let
me self destruct at any time. It was hard for.
Yeah. It is relatable, yeah.

(04:49):
But for Jim Gordon, this 180° turn led to his virtual erasure
from the culture. James Beck Gordon was an
American drummer, songwriter andsession musician, and convicted
murderer no less. Oh, whose exceptional talent
made him one of the most sought after drummers of the 1960s and
70s. But that was before the murder,
I would imagine. I would think.
Probably, yeah. James Beck Gordon, great drummer

(05:10):
name. He lives up to it.
Born on July 14th, 1945 in Los Angeles, CA Beautiful and raised
in the San Fernando Valley whichwe are a part of right now.
He attended Grant High School, which is where we just had a
high school graduation we went to.
No kidding. Yeah, also my middle name,
Grant. Grant, Yeah.
BGK that's. Very.
British. Benjamin Grant Kissel.

(05:32):
That's if I ever blow up a mall.Nice headlines.
Grant High School. So Jim Gordon went there, and
the guy from the Wizards, Agent Zero, who brought a gun into.
The Gilbert Arenas. Gilbert Arenas went there as
well. All right, very.
You know, those are, that's a big span of people.
Rarely do I have a reference that only I could get.
Yeah, Gilbert Arenas. Yeah, it's not me.

(05:53):
Yeah. Displaying prodigious musical
talent from a young age, Gordon began playing drums in early
childhood. And over 6 feet tall and built
like a linebacker, Gordon cut animposing figure behind the drum
kit. Interesting, usually I think
drummers are like 5-10, really wiry.
Even less than that. Like Lars Lars, Lars Metallic
Rick. Yeah, old.

(06:13):
Rick, he's a tiny little guy. He is.
He's like short and stocky, yeah.
He's always complaining about something.
Yeah, but he's a Napster. But he'd be banging away.
Yeah, he does bang away on them drums, that's true.
Some kind of monster. It's a documentary about
Metallica and it shows them in therapy and it really ruins the
whole volume. God, you never listen.
To me in therapy. It literally is that you never

(06:34):
listen to me. Oh, I wrote that song.
You never give me credit for it.So.
Oh. My God.
But. I'm not, I'm not accusing you of
of taking advantage of my chords, but I'm saying I feel
like a lot of the advantage of my chords A.
Lot of it's very not metal. It's not very metal.
Although it is needed at some point, I think all bands have to

(06:54):
go through therapy, so it's goodfrom that perspective.
Yeah, I just not everything needs to be on camera.
No, very true. Because Jim's father was a
practicing alcoholic. He wasn't ready for a
professional yet. He was right.
Right. Practicing.
He wasn't. He was undergrad.
One day, dad, you're going to turn pro.
I just can't finish the bottle of Wild Turkey.
I get right towards the end and I can't have the last shot.

(07:16):
You've got this buddy, don't letthe cops tell you no.
His mother became the de facto leader of the household.
Despite this, Jim Gordon was thedefinition of the all American
boy. We've done a lot of all American
boys who have not been so all American.
Isn't that so then? Is that the all American boy?
I think yes, you got definition.You always have to look at the

(07:39):
all American people. You got to look at the pillars
of the community. You're going to look at a lot of
the people who claim to be the the nicest guy in the
neighborhood. Yeah, the good Samaritans, the
ones that are really, really involved.
Right. I mean John Wayne Gacy.
Absolutely. Again, Polish Day Parade.
We've talked about that before. Look at Beaver.
Leave it to Beaver. His his name became a euphemism

(08:00):
for vagina. It's really how do you think
that happened? He was slaying cooch.
He must have been. That's why they call it the
Beeve. By the age of 17, he had
declined a music scholarship to UCLA to pursue a professional
music career. I like.
That go do it. I ain't go to college.
Go do the damn thing. In Boston we have Berkeley

(08:22):
School of Music, and they say ifyou graduate then you're like a
loser there, you have to leave. Oh.
Because the guys from South Park, they went there, they
ended up leaving, they ended up getting like Oscars and Tonys
for everything they've done musically.
I. Mean, yeah.
They're they're they're geniuses, yeah.
Yeah, also, the Tony sounds likethe sweatiest of all the
statues. You get the Tony.
Here's a Tony, here's a. Tony.
Covered in GABA Ghoul. Yeah, it's not Italian, it's

(08:45):
Sicilian. OK fine.
Gonna come back in high school in Long Island, right?
What does my award have? The Meat Sweats.
He joined The Everly Brothers Touring band and joined them on
their 1963 live tour of the United Kingdom.
Yo at like before 20? Years old.
That's crazy. That's awesome.
Returning to LA, Jim immersed himself in the vibrant Los

(09:08):
Angeles music scene, quickly becoming a prominent figure
among session session musicians.Session musicians.
Session musicians. Session musicians.
Yeah, that's a tongue twister. It really is.
His versatility and precision made him a favorite among
producers and artists alike. Working and studying closely
with the legendary drummer Hal Blaine, Gordon became a key
member of the Wrecking Crew. Nice.

(09:30):
Sounds like AWWF tag team. It really does.
You know, considering that this isn't my Forte of music, you're
gonna have to explain a lot of these old bands to me.
You'll know a lot of them. You'll know some Everly brothers
real cool. Just think of a cigar.
Could talk. So, so far, I heard Frank
Sinatra at the beginning and that's the only thing I had a
reference to in my brain. Yeah, well, the Wrecking Crew,

(09:52):
they're a collective elite session musicians based in LA
who played on countless hits throughout the 60s and 70s.
Got it. You don't want to see a room
after they were there. It's not just a clever name.
They wrecked it. At the peak of his session work,
Gordon's schedule was so demanding that he reportedly
flew daily between Las Vegas andLos Angeles to fulfill recording
sessions and live performances. Dang all.

(10:13):
Right, that's a lot of work. It is flying though is only like
40 minutes so it's not too bad. Yeah, it's chill.
And strangely enough, I feel like it was safer then, even
though statistically I'm sure itwasn't.
But you know it's. Fun.
Seems like it was safer then, yeah?
Gordon's exceptional drumming skills led him to collaborate
with a myriad of artists across various genres.
In 1966, Jim joined The Beach Boys, which is been in the news

(10:37):
this week. Of course.
RIP Brian Wilson. Yes, Sir.
He joined The Beach Boys in studio to help them record their
magnum opus. Pet Sounds.
I had no idea how amazing The Beach Boys were until I've seen
the documentaries. Because for me, I'm just like, I
think of, you know, surfing USA and I'm like pretty bass music.
But apparently it's genius and Idon't know enough about music to

(10:57):
understand why it's genius. So then it's extra genius.
Yeah, yeah, pretty much That's how that's where I fall.
I kind of understand that Beach Boys were like a a crazy impact
to this music thing that we've got going on.
But I I'm not, I wasn't really don't really know of them well.
Yeah, I was a little like Kokomosurfing USAI thought it was like
old guy music. But then they were on full house
and then Jesse played with them and I was like, Oh my God, these

(11:19):
guys are the best. Well, it's a huge deal, yeah.
It was, well, that gave me an idea that they might be a huge.
Deal. Yes, exactly.
They're telling you started to recognize.
I'm like, Oh yes, the ever classic Beach Boys that I'm just
finding out about right now. And they let the Olsen twins on
stage and everything. It was great.
Uncle Jesse holds up. Cool.
Yeah, cool guy. He really does.
Cool guy all around. Just what was he the guitarist

(11:40):
and lead singer then or. Yeah, he.
Was. Oh my God, Jesse and those
somethings. He was so hot.
I'll find it, Jesse. I'll do my work on the show.
OK, everybody, I'm finding out what the band was.
I. Think no matter what sexuality
or gender preference you've got going on.
Like John Stamos was a was a stud.
He was. It was crazy, too, moving to
California when I first moved here.

(12:02):
I lived in Glendale for two weeks and then I moved into an
apartment in Hawthorne. And Hawthorne is the birth place
of The Beach Boys and Marilyn Monroe.
But they have, they have a a whole shrine to The Beach Boys
there that's right off the 105 highway.
And their house that they grew up in was a victim of eminent
domain so they could build that highway.

(12:22):
So they just have a plaque wheretheir house used to be.
Oh, interesting. Wow.
Yeah, and I've, I've recovered the name.
I went through all of my files. Oh, yes, I blew off a lot of
Manila envelopes. You know what I mean?
To find the answer. It's Jesse and the rippers.
Yeah. Jesse and the Rippers which?
Kind of sounds like Wreck and Crew Rippers.
Cool. Yeah, that was.
Kill me. Maybe it was like an homage.

(12:44):
It may be. Widely considered the greatest
pop rock album of all time, Jim was credited with playing the
drums and the plastic orange juice cups on the iconic love
ballad called God Only Knows. What was the plastic orange
juice cups? Yeah, it is.
Wow, That's incredible. I would have loved to be in that
room with Brian Wilson just randomly yelling shit at you and

(13:06):
you just like, oh, OK, I'll do it.
And then it works out and. That's amazing, the plastic
orange cup. Cool, what a credit.
You may ask yourself, didn't TheBeach Boys have a drummer?
They did. Didn't The Beach Boys have a
drummer? Mm hmm.
Dennis Wilson was more known forsurfing, picking up chicks and
hanging out with Charles Manson.Yeah.

(13:27):
Then establishing his own musical legacy.
That is his musical legacy. What are you talking?
About. That's pretty much.
Finger and chicks on the beach. That's the legacy, hanging out
with Charles Manson. He was establishing his legacy,
yeah. Rock'n'roll.
In another death and entertainment coincidence, just
this week, the leader and geniusbehind The Beach Boys, Brian
Wilson, died on June 11th, 2025 at the age of 82.

(13:48):
But Jim Gordon, Jim Gordon didn't stay just a session
player for long. So if people that are that are
listening don't know what a session player is, they only go
with the band into the studio torecord and then they have their
own musicians to go live on tourwith.
Them It's the closest thing you can get to a nine to five as a
musician. Yes, you get paid well, but you
do the job and you're out. They're not like you're in the

(14:09):
band. Now you're not in the band.
Even though you created this sweet, sweet juice in the same
room, Yeah, you're not coming ontour.
You played the hell out of thosecups, kid, but you can't come to
Sacramento with us. Nope, Nope.
Pack your juice cups and get thefuck out of here.
But a lot of times they say someof the greatest musicians are
session musicians. Oh, I've never know their names
or anything. And it's because, yeah.
But it's because they can roll with the punches.

(14:29):
So they can, they can pick up ona band like their energy plus
whatever musical thing they're going for.
Yeah. And then and then they can just
like, drop it and move on and switch gears for the next band.
Yeah. I think that's incredible
talent. It is.
Yeah, my next door neighbor played bass on the 1st Paramore
album and he has the whole record there that went like gold
and platinum and all that. Stuff that's kind of sad.
That's kind of sad, though. I've seen your.

(14:49):
Apartment, but not my apartment,His apartment.
No, but I know. But it's your neighbor.
Oh, Jesus. Oh yeah, So don't, maybe don't
get into music anymore. Yeah, that makes.
Sense to live by Kyle and a screaming child.
You know, I played the bass for Paramore.
Right. Put your kid to sleep.
He was recruited to join Delaneyand Bonnie's band after another

(15:11):
drummer named Jim Jim Jim Keltner Drop dropped out of the
upcoming tour. OK, what was the name of that
band? Delaney and Bonnie, right?
Bonnie. Yeah, you want.
To go see Delaney and Bonnie tonight.
Nah, I don't. I'm going to stay in.
But if you and I just ran away together an old Delaney and

(15:33):
Bonnie. Sounds like going to see your
parents cover band, your parentsfavorite cover band or
something, or just your parents singing.
Yeah, so Keltner was out, Gordongot in, and that's where he
would meet bassist Carl Rattle, and together they became one of
the tightest rhythm sections in rock music.
That's crazy. One of my best friends growing
up was last named Rattle. You can never trust a Rattle,

(15:56):
no. Can never trust a rattle because
poison. They really are crazy.
That's. Wild Yeah.
In 1969 and 1970, Gordon and Rattle toured with Delaney and
Bonnie, a group that included guitarist Eric Clapton and
keyboardist Bobby Whitlock. They say if you follow the if
you follow the the yelling of the N word, you'll find Eric

(16:16):
Clapton to this day Holy. Shit.
Was he a big N word guy? Ohh yeah.
What? Ohh bro you can just.
Search Eric Clapton meltdown of the 1970s or some black kid at
his concert. Ohh he was none too please.
Holy shit. So he was just opening the
window to scream the N word and that's when his kid fell out.
Happy. To fucking say I'm not an Eric

(16:37):
Clapton fan. He's Jesus.
Yeah, he's notorious for kind ofbeing a D bag.
Wow, did not know. Maybe he's changed, who knows?
That lineup subsequently served as the studio band for Eric
Clapton self-titled debut solo solo album, Eric Clapton OH.
Makes sense? This was in 1970 that led to

(16:57):
work on George Harrison's post Beatles masterpiece All Things
Must Pass. I love that.
Some good old fashioned George Harrison.
Yeah, although the Hari Krishnas, not horrible, but
annoying. Remember in the Union Square,
New York City, the Hari Krishnas.
Were always there. Yes, they were always there.
And I just don't know what they were.
I don't know what the the class structure was, but it was very

(17:19):
bizarre. And and then sometimes they
would offer me, they would give me a nice little offering of
something. Yeah, they would give me a.
They tried to get me a gold pen and I was like really depressed.
I was like oh thank you, this isso nice and.
Then they charge grab. It back and we got into like a
pulling match. What?
Yeah, I almost fought this guy. For me, they would charge,
there'd be. Well, he was like, no, you need
to pay. And I was like what the fuck?
You gave this to me. Right, yeah, like they gave it
to you like as a gift. And then they pull out of your

(17:41):
clipboard and it's like, alright, thanks.
I'll sign your name here. And how much you're gonna be
giving me. Yeah, I'm like.
What I don't like when someone gives me a gift and then hands
me a clipboard. Yeah, like what the fuck?
Fuck you. For anyone visiting New York, no
mixed CDs are free. None of.
Them you want to try them, they all come with a price.
They all do. The answer is no, you don't want
to try their mixed CD. My buddy was like I support the
arts, he gave them 25 bucks and then we got back and the CD was

(18:03):
empty. Of course, Duh.
But he did support the arts. And a nasty, nasty crack habit.
Yeah. So with George Harrison, that's
where Gordon played side by sidewith none other than Ringo
Starr. Ringo is my man, all he had to
do was keep time in The Beatles,watch everyone else freak the
fuck out over their dumb bullshit, and Ringo just stayed

(18:24):
in the back and chilled. Suddenly, Jim Gordon's drumming
was everywhere, instantly recognizable, in demand, and
legendary. In early 1970, Gordon joined Joe
Cocker's famous Mad Dogs and Englishmen tour.
Nice. I do not know.
Oh, have a little help from yourfriends.
Oh, OK. Yeah, yeah, John Belushi did the
impression of Mr. Cocker. Oh, that's very famous.

(18:47):
But Joe Cocker famously never really wrote many songs.
He did a lot of covers, but he sang so beautifully.
He got every song that he wanted.
Fuck you. Wow.
That's kind of the dream. Oh, it's awesome.
Yeah. The dream for all of us, in case
you haven't noticed, is less work, more success.
That's the dream. That's the dream right there.
I don't have to make a song. I just got to sing one.
That's right. I do that all the time.
Why wouldn't I do that? Yeah, this is where he met Rita

(19:09):
Coolidge, who became his girlfriend.
OK. She was a backup singer in the
touring band. In her memoir, Coolidge
described A frightening moment during the tour when Gordon
punched her in the face in a hotel.
Oh my God. Right in the hallway, in the
lobby. She had old ditty moment.
So, so hard that she was becauseshe.
Left the freak off, yeah. Never leave the freak off early.

(19:30):
Can't. She wasn't on time.
Yeah. So he punched her in the face,
apparently so hard that she was knocked unconscious.
Well, that's not right. After this, the relationship was
over. Next came the band, Derek and
the Dominoes. Yeah, of course.
Formed during the recording sessions for the George Harrison
album, Derek and the Dominoes brought together Gordon Clapton,
Rattle Whitlock and and Dave Mason of The Traffic, as well as

(19:54):
Dwayne Allman of The Allman Brothers Band.
Damn that's a super group. Mm hmm.
As one of rock music's first ever super groups, their one and
only studio album Layla and other assorted love songs became
one of the most defining recordsof the 70s.
Is that the Layla Layla? That's the one we all know.
They sang it on me on my knees. Yeah, buddy, I'm sorry.

(20:15):
Leila has a huge Dick. That's why he's on his knees
sucking it. Nice.
You get it. And Gordon didn't just play on
the album, he Co wrote the titletrack Leila, contributing that
unforgettable heart wrenching piano coda that closes the song.
Wow wow. However, according to Jim's
battered girlfriend at the time,singer Rita Coolidge, the coda

(20:36):
originally came from a song theywrote together called Time.
Oh, so he's stealing? Music fight.
Music fight. Music fight misappropriating
notes. I do think a music fight is
cooler than a comedian. You stole my joke.
Fight. Oh, it's way cooler.
Yeah, it's so it has so much more credibility.
It really does. It really does.
Because mostly it's like I had that joke about the taint and

(20:58):
then you took my you took my taint joke.
You took my taint joke because it was obviously super original
that I just made it up right nowlike that's fucking that's a lot
It's. Happens all the time.
It's hacky that they even get their feelings hurt about that.
Yeah, so Rita claimed that it was lifted and repurposed
without credit. In her 2016 memoir Delta, Lady

(21:18):
Coolidge recalled that they had played the song for Clapton
while in England, and she was stunned when it appeared at the
end of Layla Without Credit. Oh, you got to give credit where
credit is due. Come on, people.
Coolidge wrote. I was infuriated.
What they'd clearly done was take the song Jim and I had
written, jettison the lyrics andtacked it on to the end of
Eric's song. It was almost the same

(21:39):
arrangement I. I understand being bitter about
that, yeah. Yeah, they literally just took a
song. It's it's like when you
plagiarize something, but you'retrying to make it kind of seem
like your own words. So you're like changing just
like a couple of words here and there.
You slap your name on the top and you're like, bam, it is.
It's in my own words. Exactly.
Instead of saying and, I wrote and there it is, because that's

(22:01):
more like me. Yeah, that is like you.
Derek and the Dominoes disbandedin 1971 before completing a
second album. Dwayne Allman soon died in a
motorcycle crash. Carl Rattle passed away young
from complications related to alcohol and drugs.
Bobby Whitlock retreated from the spotlight for years.
Only Eric Clapton emerged mostlyintact from that super group.

(22:24):
He was big into cocaine. So the whole thing was like
cursed. Yeah, it was mostly intact
because he didn't have his nasalcavity anymore, so he wasn't
completely intact. Got it.
Yeah, this super group, it does sound like you, this was the
group not to be a part of if youwant to have a successful career
afterwards. A lot of death and then recluse
Ness. Yeah, Jim Gordon's role on
recording sessions and albums soon extended way beyond the

(22:45):
simple task of keeping time. Author Joel Selvin wrote in his
biography of Gordon, Drums and Demons.
He wasn't just a backseat guy, he was a fully musical drummer
who embedded, who embedded his playing into the core of the
composition. Nice, I would go with demons and
drums though. I think demons and drums has a
better role. To it I think.

(23:06):
So too than drums and demons, 'cause when I hear drums
initially I'm thinking chicken. Drumsticks.
Yeah, it's true. When I say when I hit, when I
say drumstick, I'm not talking about the musical.
No. Thing.
Do you often? I also think about the ice
cream, which is apparently not ice cream because it doesn't
melt. Oh.
It doesn't I guess. I guess I've never waited long

(23:27):
enough to see if it melts or not.
It was big on social media abouta year and a half ago where the
drumstick people were figuring out what is it?
A psyop made by the government trying to kill us.
Because it doesn't melt. Because it's not ice cream, it's
an ice cream product. A year and a half ago and that
is still taking up space in yourmemory bank right now.
This is the problem with no longer drinking alcohol.
I'm really smart, yeah, and I hate that every second.
You're really smart about reallystupid things.

(23:49):
Oh yeah. Oh, boy.
I don't know anything that matters.
Yeah, If there was a time machine, don't send me.
Yeah, because nothing's going tobe here.
I can't figure out anything. We'd barely have fire.
What would we? What if you had the chance to go
back in time and kill Hitler andthat like, you know what?
Assigned him drumsticks. Someone like assigned you to do
it. I would have, oh, this is going

(24:09):
to be taken out of context, OK, but don't.
Oh, OK. I would have loved Hitler so we
didn't fucking have so much hatred in his heart.
OK, well. Because he was just a person.
You would be beating him off. I wouldn't.
No, I'm not. No, that's what led to all of
that. God, you know.
I wouldn't have been beaten off Hitler.
No, I I would have said I would have.
It was a OK, OK, yeah, maybe my,maybe my grandfather fought in

(24:33):
the war. OK, right, right, right, right,
right, right. I was, I was saying if you were,
all I was saying was if you wereto be like assigned a job to go
back in time and kill Hitler, you would probably go back in
time and just tell Hitler. I think it's nurturing.
Sticks and their lack of melting.
Yes. And I would have said, and you
would have just, I would have nurtured him to the point where
he would not have had such hostility towards specifically a

(24:54):
group of people. Oh, so you got so you have
Hitler as a baby in this analogy.
Like you get him young. Oh, I don't have to get him as a
baby. That's, I think that's what
people usually say is if you'd kill a baby Hitler.
But it's tough to kill a baby. Yeah, man, what about Jim
Gordon? Yeah, let's get back to that.
Thank you so much. Fans think about that all night.

(25:16):
Toddler Hitler. Is that easy here?
When's it become super easy? Yeah.
When he starts speaking in yeah German angrily.
Right. So Jim, he was an expert at
fusing musical genres in no in away no drummer had ever done
before. So take for example, the films,
the fills and the intonations headded to Carly Simon's You're So
Vain. That one I know.

(25:37):
Probably think this song is about, don't you?
Don't you? But it is about somebody.
It has to be. It was, yeah.
But that's the whole thing is like, even if it is about you,
you're fucking so pretty. It's a.
It's a time loop. Is it Mick Jagger?
It's a catch 22 of lyrics. It really is.
So his fills and intonations, they were so integral that they
helped guide the vocal phrasing.Integral.

(26:00):
Integral, integral, integral. Yeah, integral.
OK, they both work. Which were so integral.
Let's try that one more time. It's getting worse.
It's fine. No, it's the that's how you say
it. That's how you say it.
That's the beauty of editing. This is just for the Patreon
integral. Which was so integral that what?
That's the only two ways you say.
It is that right? OK, just send it.

(26:21):
OK, can we leave that edit done?Which were so important, they
helped guide the vocal phrasing.We're leaving all that and.
Fine, fine, we'll get it. No, it'll be like you guys are
just going to not edit the podcast.
Well, no, I guess we're not going to fucking edit the
podcast. I like this non edit.
All right, fine. It's raw.
It's real. It's dumb, but yes, integral.

(26:44):
Or the sama groove he added to Maria Muldaur's number one hit
Midnight at the Oasis. Nice.
In Steely Dan's Ricky, don't lose that number.
What? Hell yeah.
Ricky bet not lose that number. I mean, back in the day, if you
lost that number, you're fucked.Oh, you're so fucked, so fucked.
It's over. You lost that ass.
Yum. The beat he devised took the

(27:05):
song into the realm of jazz. In doing so, Sullivan says Jim
became an important part of the hit making process.
Mark Lindsay, front man of the band Paul Revere and the
Raiders. Let's go.
Oh my God, my uncle Spider senseis getting.
I'm like, oh, now you're talkingabout some fresh new hit music.
Yeah, they immediately noticed Gordon's gift after he was hired

(27:28):
to drum on their song The Great Airplane Strike, which is not
about the Indian Airlines big crash today.
How? Would I have known?
Yeah. Was it about the airplanes?
Was it about the strike, the airtraffic controller strike?
Does that happen in the 80s? I don't know.
It was one of Ronnie Reagan's first I'm a I'm a tough guy
moment. What if this is just about the

(27:50):
time that a girl wouldn't suck his pee pee and his He calls his
pee pee the grey airplane. And she's on strike.
Yeah, OK. Or it was a forewarning of 911.
Could have been, could have been.
Lindsay recalls he was doing hispolyrhythmic thing with a kick,
a snare and a hi hat accented byTom Toms.

(28:11):
It doesn't sound like it would look really goofy, but I know it
doesn't. But if I just heard those words
together, I'd be like, is he a cartoon octopus?
That's like what's happening. Like, is he also on a unicycle
juggling? Why is this sound so silly?
What a great halftime show that was.
They say he changed the song up so much.
Watch that I wound up rewriting half my lyrics to fit what he

(28:32):
was doing. Interesting.
Wow. Jim became the conductor of the
track. I mean, it sounds awesome.
It sounds really exhilarating tobe in a room and hearing that
like creative genius for the first time.
You know, I know. I wish I had that ear for music.
It's crazy because a lot of the drummers, they're brought in
last to just like fill in, you know, whatever else, everybody
else, whatever, whatever else, everybody did.

(28:55):
The bongs and the bings. That makes sense.
It doesn't start with the drummer.
I feel like he has. Let's start with some kind of a
beat. Sometimes, but they're like,
hey, we already know what the song is.
Then you kind of figure it out. Yeah.
This guy's like I'm fucking changing the whole world with
this shit. Yeah.
That's like, here's a song and he's like, I see what you're
going for. Let me make this better.
Yeah, it's why the drummer's often the loneliest, isn't he?
I guess so. Yes, often times.

(29:15):
Yeah, he's, he's all the way in the back, surrounded.
By all the equipment. Yeah.
That same level of creativity was found during the recording
of Sundown, a song Jim played for Gordon Lightfoot that became
a number one hit. Sundown.
Yeah, something like that. Yeah, exactly like that.
No, that's it. Producer Lenny Waronkner.

(29:38):
What? Waronker.
Waronker. Producer Lenny Waronker.
Oh, you got to love that guy. Once Waronker gets his hands on
it, it's going to turn into puregold.
What about Waronker? Yeah, everybody's about to get
wronged. Yeah, that's what he.
Said all the time, yeah, you just got wronged.
That's great. He said his drum part made the

(29:59):
song move in its own way. It's a specific rhythm that
Jimmy picked up from Gordon's guitar.
Nice. It became one of the most
important parts of the song. Love that.
Yeah. In 1973, Jim devised a pair of
drum patterns that proved crucial to the development of
two separate genres. His percussion laid down
influential beats on the single Rock the Boat by the Hughes

(30:21):
Corporation, which sounds very. It sounds.
Not, not the music. Yeah, yeah, Hughes Corporation
does sound like they're about toliquidate your assets, but.
But also make you feel good about it with some nice tunes.
Oh, they're doing with cool sunglasses on.
But like you like that couch, sodo we.
It's often considered the first disco song, with Gordon's hi hat

(30:43):
syncopations and danceable beatshelping the patent rhythms of
the genre. Interesting, I wonder if you got
any blowback because disco lovedby many, hated by a lot.
Yeah. I'm fine with it though.
I think it's fine. But Can you imagine if it
permeated the culture as mainstream?
I could see that be. Very mean, yeah.
I could see that drive me absolutely insane.

(31:05):
Because now we listen not by choice.
Every now and again you. Know you can tell by the way I
use. Get away from me.
Get away from me. Yeah.
Sounds like a stalker song. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jim also invented the rhythm andbeat that would go on to inspire
hip hop, notably in the single Apache by the Incredible Bongo
Band. The Bongo band.

(31:25):
The Incredible Bongo Band I love.
They're like superheroes with bongos.
He. Invented the rhythm and beat
that would inspire hip hop. We need to get a black person in
here ASAP. Sure.
About that, I'm not not fucking sure about that at all, to be
quite honest. That is suspect.
And also. Well, for the sake of this

(31:47):
program, that's what happened, OK.
Yeah. I well, for the sake of this
program, there's I can say I don't know about that.
So far he's had a lot of successand we are commenting on his,
you know, quote UN quote creative geniuses.
And everyone's like, oh, he's made a beat.
Like, no, we've never heard something like that before.
I am still thinking about the fact that he punched that girl
in the face, knocked the fuck out.

(32:08):
Well, he's not forgotten about. He was keeping the beat going,
Jerry. Yeah.
Clearly not only did he knock her the fuck out, but then he
like stole her song. He did double tick drums.
That is bad. That's bad.
Insult to injury. And then she was, she was
sitting there like, wow, I guessfuck me completely.
I guess, yeah. It's really not given the credit
there because that's like actually that that stays there

(32:29):
forever. And now all of a sudden he's
he's making a contribution to hip hop, like, OK, all right.
I'm looking at the Incredible Bongo Band and they are cool.
That's what you need. For don't sound.
That cool? Yeah, well, they got they got a
white fella and then a black fella and then a white fella.
And they're the the cover is them on a train track.

(32:49):
Wow, about to shoot a goat. Oh my God, are they in Texas?
Yeah, so the cover is a man in atop hat right about to shoot a
goat in front of a train because, you know, they.
Just started asking for help shooting their goats.
And this is called the return ofthe Incredible Bongo Band.
Wow. I'm gonna give them a listen.
Why not? Hey, we're back and we're
shooting goats on train tracks. Let's do it.

(33:09):
Tell of friends His extended break on the song, paired with
the congas of King Erisen, became a foundational pattern in
hip hop that was later sampled throughout the 80s and beyond.
I'm. Gonna need to see some.
I'm gonna need I just see some. Receipts I need.
Credit. I need sources.
Yeah, I just want, I just want. I'm not saying I don't believe
them, but I I just want to see sources.

(33:31):
Yeah, unfortunately with Spotifyright now and we're playing ads
on the shows, we can't do any copyright, no music, but we will
do a Patreon only of all the songs that we're talking about.
We don't have to do it tonight, but we'll get it on Patreon so
we can actually hear everything and not get demonetized.
Honestly, yeah. And I actually do.
I want to hear all these things for references.

(33:52):
That'd be a fun thing. Maybe the sheep knew, and that's
where they had a gun to the sheep's head on the cover of
that album. So despite his success, Gordon
battled severe mental illness. It was later later diagnosed.
He was later diagnosed as schizophrenia.
Oh, that's a bad one. Shit.
Yeah, well, that's why he was sogood at drums.

(34:13):
There's a bunch of people in hishead playing a bunch of
different beats at the same. Time makes sense.
Wow, that makes total. Sense why he sees other things
that people don't see in music. Wow, I mean, that does make
sense. By the late 1970s, Jim's
condition quickly deteriorated. It disappeared for days, which
that's not so bad. I mean if he was by if he was.
He was supposed to be at work every day.

(34:34):
That'd be a little bad, no? That's supposed to be at work
and said he was at the seashore proclaiming to be Jesus Christ.
Yeah, that'd. Be an issue.
It's one thing I'm jealous of. I can't do that anymore.
You can't disappear for days when you have a kid.
Yeah. Then you get in trouble, yeah.
Yeah, that whole absent father thing.
It's a whole neglect thing. It's weird.
I mean, you could just do it. It's a real bummer.
Well, yeah, you could, but then.You know, people will kind of

(34:54):
judge you and I would feel sad I.
Wouldn't like it. I wouldn't like you.
No. Well, he heard voices as well.
He spiraled into erratic, destructive behavior.
Like Randy Orton, he hears voices in his head.
I have voices in my head. Got it.
That was so good. We might get copyright struck.
That was good. Yeah, that was good, Yeah.

(35:15):
He began experiencing disturbingauditory hallucinations,
including voices commanding him to harm himself and others.
And that's the thing about schizophrenia I don't like.
Why can't they be positive? What in the things that they
say, oh, go make sure you get vegetables.
Go go grocery shopping. It's the intrusive thoughts come
in. Yeah, the intrusive thoughts
really start running the show. Well, you know, sometimes people

(35:38):
it does kind of show in positiveways and then because of that,
things go like undiagnosed or like they let them like kind of
stay on this like track because it seems so good.
Like when people with schizophrenia will have like,
what are they like the grandiosedivisions or just like acting
like they're like like I'm. Papa John now I own a pizza

(35:58):
franchise now. Yeah.
And then sometimes that leads toyou actually being like a leader
of some sort because you were sodelusional to think that you
were a leader of a company that you actually kind of became one.
And then. Everyone.
'S like, I guess that's good. So those are the times where
sometimes it does come out in a good.
Light. I believe it.
Well, that's not what happened here.
OK, The voice is right. The voices compelled him to

(36:20):
engage in self-destructive behaviors such as self
starvation, which could just be a diet.
It's a cleanse now, no? It's literally called like the
white girl diet now. I just did a bunch of Adderall
because I'm getting married in three months.
I know that it's a problem for people that don't.
I don't. I don't gain enough weight, but
I'm so pissed at that people. Too.

(36:41):
Yeah. I'm just, it's just a really
aggravating, yeah, that that's an issue for you.
Well, yeah, but apparently because I'm of the the Latina
race, I think I'm supposed to get all of the weight that I'm
was supposed to gain throughout all of my life.
I think it's all going to smack me when I'm like 60.
Oh, that's fine, unless I'm likeworking out a bunch.
Yeah, but that's good. I mean, it's just nice to know

(37:02):
that no matter what, you're not going to be attractive
physically to one group of people at all times.
Yeah. Oh yeah.
No, no one ever is Great. You're ugly to somebody,
beautiful to somebody. Never forget that, yeah.
I just haven't met him yet. No, you're ugly to a lot of
people. Kyle, you're clearly ugly.
No, he's handsome. He's a Boston 11.
Yeah. So he would also deprive himself

(37:26):
of sleep, and yet he kept it hidden from the public and from
his peers. Oh my God, he's like with that
fantastic role in in The Machinist.
He need Christian Bale. He.
Needs to sleep and he needs to eat.
This is not good for his condition.
Yeah, Speaking of ugly, someone told me, oh, my God, you look
like Christian Bale from The Fighter.
And I was like, oh, Christian Bale, he's handsome.

(37:46):
That's nice. And they're like, no, Christian
Bale from The Fighter. Yeah, when he's a heroin addict.
Yeah, yeah, the fighter is rough.
Yeah, parolee. What do you you?
Have so much meat on your bones.Ah, thank you.
Yeah, I was Bishop for a compliment.
Here it. Is you got 1?
You caught a big one. Yeah, you.
Got a big one? No, he's handsome in the
fighter. Yeah, I don't know.

(38:06):
He's. Skinny, all right.
When he eventually sought help, he was misdiagnosed.
He was treated for alcohol abuseinstead of receiving appropriate
psychiatric care and. Yeah, that goes hand in hand
many times. And obviously lack of sleep will
take you straight to some kind of a psychotic episode no matter
where you are in. Mental health if I don't get 18

(38:27):
hours a day, I. Will I know right?
Don't even look at. Me beauty sleep.
Still, some of the music industry were already beginning
to see through it. Claudia Lanier said she always
wondered about that smile. It was too simple.
It felt like he was hiding behind it.
Oh. Damn, that's a crazy insult.

(38:48):
You have a simple smile. You know what?
I don't like about your smile, it's too simple.
That is scary. It's a great visual, yeah.
Because the truth saw was in theeyes.
Yeah, and even a simple smile sounds like hollow, dark black
eyes. Yeah, absolutely.
They never say that about the nose.
I think the truth is in the noseyou can look for little flare

(39:08):
ups here or there. The nostrils will talk.
The nostrils will tell. They're the lie detector of the
body. They really are.
The lie detector of the face. I've heard that.
In 1973, Gordon viciously attacked his wife, which now he
has a track record. Yeah, Renee Armand, she had
several ribs cracked. Oh my God, these are very

(39:29):
aggressive. So this is extremely this is
this he's. Not like holding back.
He's like, he's like in a place when he does these things, he
like, snaps out of it. Well, the good thing is it ended
their marriage, so she was able to get away.
But yeah, his beat, sanity and everything else in his life were
beginning to seriously waver. So it was probably the last
piece of structure in his life. And then, yeah, you know, fucked

(39:50):
that up massively. So he's been free fall now and.
I'm guessing these were never reported.
Yeah, To anyone. Well, somehow, you know, so it's
not been. Was there a police report on
that? Possibly.
There must have been some information if we know about it.
That's true. The biographer Joel Selvin
Gordon's talent can't be separated from his torment.
The level of intuition that Jim displayed in in his playing

(40:13):
requires a certain electrical electrochemical make up.
It's a great name for a band also.
Is that just saying that he needs to be losing his mind and
on drugs constantly for him to spew out the musical genius that
he is able to do? Yeah.
Yeah, well, that's what Brian Wilson said.
He said that he never sat down to write a song.
The songs came to him. He said they would burst through

(40:34):
his chest and cause him like immense amounts of energy and
and anxiety. So it is interesting.
I. Weirdly believe that.
Yeah, it's like it comes from another place.
That's what he said. And yeah.
His highly personal style had tocome from the same place in the
brain that produced his schizophrenia, he said.
That also kind of checks out. Yeah, it's too bad.

(40:54):
Yeah, it's like a grocery store that sells like really, really
good meat, but then also just a bunch of fucking shit
sandwiches. Yep, piss spam.
Oh yeah. Wasn't OK bud.
The focus and power involved in playing the drums gave Gordon a
refuge from the thoughts going on in his head, Selvin
continues. The combination of the
Renaissance of the drums and therhythmic entertainment of the

(41:17):
groove produces A hypnotic feeling that can lift you out.
Nothing calms A schizophrenic faster than a Walkman and a pair
of headphones, which I don't know if that's true.
Nothing does what? Nothing calms A schizophrenic
faster than a Walkman and a pairof headphones.
So if you're being bludgeoned todeath as a homeless man and the
guy's like, I'm schizophrenic, you're like, where's my Walkman?

(41:37):
Yeah, pretty. Much like, oh I'm sorry, put on
the headphones, it's like much better.
Continue. I can see music though.
Music therapy. It's been around for a long
time. Yeah.
For Jim, the drums provided a place where the voice is
silenced. It's very ironic, yeah.
It's when you have so much like cognitive dissonance, not even

(41:59):
cognitive, like just dissonance in your brain.
And then when you like, when you're able to produce something
outside of your body that kind of like takes that, that
dissonance outside of your brain, places it outside of you.
And because of that, you feel like a sense of calm.
Oh my God, am I schizophrenic? No.
Totally not. Schizophrenic.
Put the knife down, Kyle. Let's go.

(42:19):
Yeah, that's exactly how 'cause people always will, like, ask me
like, oh, the people that don't like metal music, they're always
like, Oh my God, how do you listen to that stuff?
And that's always how I would describe it.
It's like, like, I feel like there's like a lot of like chaos
and dissonance inside my brain and that takes it out of my body
and it like calms me. Right.
Yeah. That's why you think you're in a
studio recording a podcast rightnow, but there hasn't been a

(42:40):
podcast here in 30 years. Ma'am, wake up, you're in Vegas.
You're on the Sunset Strip butt naked.
Ma'am, I'm a. Citizen.
I'm a citizen. Oh yeah, that's something you
can just start yelling regularly, citizen.
Just, you know. At the same time, the 1970s
amount of recreational drugs Gordon took had the calming
effect that would also get rid of this.

(43:02):
You would think the massive amounts of cocaine he did would
make things worse, Sullivan said.
But I talked to psychiatrists who said that it would normalize
his dopamine levels. That's.
Scary. I mean, I'm ADHD.
It does kind of that for me, yeah.
Wow. He was doing blow to feel
normal, he said, so his drug andalcohol use also served as a
cover for his increasingly erratic actions.

(43:23):
I understand that. The rock scene of the time was
nearly indistinguishable from psychotic behavior, which that's
going to be crazy because LA right now, the music scene is
not really going on. I mean, it's there, but it's
not. It's not like this.
It's not like. Definitely not that.
Yeah. If anything I would say
comedians took on the roles of rock'n'roll lifestyle bullshit.
Yeah, it's, it's something, Yeah, Yeah.

(43:46):
I don't know how well it's going.
Yeah. So for them, Jim just blended
into the background. What's that If if?
Oh yeah. The scene is so crazy, the dude.
Is rock'n'roll. What do you want?
You're gonna be fucking gone forsome days.
Yeah, I'm sober, sometimes on coke.
He's shaking in the corner. Every time he comes back, he has
less hair like Mick Foley is Mankind.
It's fine. It's like Alice in Wonderland
when it's like we're all a little mad down here.
Yeah, pretty much. In 1974, Jim Gordon joined the

(44:10):
country rock super group the Southern Hillman Fury Band.
However, his behaviour grew so erratic that they were forced to
fire him after recording the first album.
That's too bad. That sounds like it's music.
Right up my right up my alleyway.
Yeah, right up my poop shoot. Yeah, wow.
Poop, Shoot Boogie. He was barely holding on.

(44:31):
He managed to keep it together in the studio for, you know,
just a few more years, but by 1978 Gordon was proving to be
too unreliable to be employed. Which is sad, because at one
point he was. He was the guy.
He was the man. In 1979, Bob Dylan called and
asked Jim to tour with him. What?
Wow. Jim was eager to play with

(44:52):
Dylan, but the voices isn't. But the voices in his head
wouldn't let him do it. Oh damn.
What did the voices? Say they've in fact, the voices
told Jim to hang up the phone. Oh shit, he's Jewish.
He's. Not Jewish.
No. Oh shit.
So he hung up on Dylan, and the voices obliged.

(45:14):
But Jim himself was furious. He's like, why did you tell me
to do that? Oh.
Yeah, they were. Because it's good for you.
We know it's good for you. How do you know that?
Because I'm telling you, he's going nuts.
Yeah, that sucks. It does suck.
It's also his voices are horrible managers.
Yeah. You gotta get him on the tour,
get him on the road with Dylan. That's what I'm saying.
You're supposed to be building this guy up.

(45:34):
The voices aren't, you know, toopositive.
Well, maybe the voices were his intuition being like, hey,
you're really sick, maybe get some help and don't just keep
going. Like no I think.
Normal. These voices were just lazy.
They were too lazy to tour. Yeah.
Yeah, that's what it was. Jim then called Paul Anka, who
he knew from the past sessions, and Anka had a Vegas gig waiting

(45:55):
for him. Jim went to Vegas to perform
with Anka for a couple weeks, which, if you know anything
about Vegas, schizophrenic, that's the perfect place for
them to be. How you say that as well?
Because again, I'm I have my ownissues and Vegas, all the Ding,
Ding, Ding, boom, boom, come over here, honey, you want to
suck? I'll suck you off at 12.
Like all of that stuff is very calming.
Wow. Because when things are calm,

(46:16):
then my brain is going crazy andthen chaos ensues.
But if I'm around chaos, then I'm very calm, right?
OK, so basically me with metal music is you in Vegas?
Yeah, got it. Nice.
Sick. But I can.
You can win. You can't win money at metal
music. I can't lose money either,
that's true. Price of the ticket.
So during the sound check, afterhitting the drums once, the

(46:38):
voices in his head grew loud. They said you hit it again and
you're dead. What?
Oh shit. He couldn't.
He couldn't continue. He needed to live.
No, it's like the what's the name of the spider man bad guy?
He reminds me of the spider man bad guy, the green guy, the
Green Goblin. Green Goblin, Yeah, he told the
music director he had psychological problems and

(47:00):
couldn't proceed, so that's the first time he's being honest
about. Wow, he actually owned up to it.
It's very progressive. That is, yeah, that's incredibly
ahead of the times. Now I'm assuming that this guy
said man up, toughen the fuck up, you're a pussy, get back to
work. Yeah, because it's 1980.
Well, you know what? Also very progressive.
He agreed and returned him to Los Angeles.
Wow. And that marked the end of his

(47:21):
professional career. Wow, I guess the voice is one
out. Of the voices, fucking one.
What did they have against drumming?
They. Had enough of that?
Shit, if he hit the drums one more time he was going to die.
That's what they take. Up the ukulele.
Yeah, because, because some voice in his head was like, if I
hear this fucking drums in thereone more time, I'm going to
fucking kill myself, right? It was over it.

(47:42):
But the way he could, but the way he needed to admit it to
himself was by separating the voice and being like, if you hit
this one more time, I'm going tokill you.
Yeah, that's interesting. I watched a little less a
documentary on Ramirez and apparently when Richard Ramirez,
the Night Stalker, when he was in prison, he talked about his
crimes, but he always said his friend wow.
So he like separated him. Wow, his crimes which is.

(48:03):
Interesting SO. Randy and Randall Woodfield.
Oh yes, two different guys. Oh my God.
Yeah, Jerry and my full name Will.
Be. Disclosed at a later time.
So imagine later in life when Jim Gordon actually hears the
song Hit Me Baby one more time. He's like, no.
We're all going to die. That's funny, you know?
It's funny. Jerry's the villain one.

(48:24):
She's taking over. Is Jerry in the room with us?
Yeah, she is. Yeah, she is.
Yeah, Scary little people are scary.
Always have, but always will be.In 1981, Jim Gordon was hired as
the drummer in a recording session for an unremarkable
artist, Jean Sarazen. The session in San Francisco

(48:44):
would be his last. After this, Jim played a small
Jim played in a small garage band that didn't go anywhere.
Well, yeah, it's a garage band. Yeah.
If you leave the garage, it's nolonger a garage band.
Now you're a street band. Yeah.
He later joined a small Blues band that had a regular gig on
Monday Monday nights in Santa Monica.
I love that though, that's nice.Is he happy at?

(49:05):
All that sounds like a nice little peaceful life, Yes, For
the the voices to go away. He still gets to play.
Music. Well, yeah, I don't know if the
voice is appeased because he wasonly earning $40 a night.
So you think that they wanted more money, but they're the
reason he doesn't have. Have a reason he doesn't have
any. So 40 bucks a night.
I mean, we like to go to a little spot in a little Irish
joint and there's a bunch of oldtimers that play there.
And I think it's kind of. Cute.

(49:26):
Oh my God, I love it. Yeah, they're, they're insanely
talented. They are, and they just, they're
all like in their 70s and that'sjust how they spend their
Friday. Night, you know.
And despite the lack of success at this time, this was a time
when Jim was not overtaken by his illness.
There was even a point when he was mentally stable enough to go
on tour with Jackson Browne. What?
But he couldn't hold on to his sanity for long.

(49:47):
He knew he wasn't right, and he felt ashamed or guilty about it,
keeping his struggles hidden from others.
Yeah, I feel that. And so it seems also there's a
correlation with every time success comes.
It is scary. And I guess he just couldn't
handle that. Maybe this was a self-defense
mechanism. Oh, self sabotage.
Self sabotage. Absolutely.
Yeah. We're not gonna do no.

(50:08):
His band mates didn't know anything was wrong with him.
Wow, they just thought he was a quiet guy in the back of the
bus. Wow.
Yeah, and he was suffering in the back.
Yeah, not that I haven't forgotten about the time he
punched and broke some ladies rib cage.
Yeah, At this time, Jim, Jim entered a residential treatment
program. His illness kept him from
staying in one place for too long, moving from one temporary

(50:30):
residence to the other. He sold his Mercedes and wasn't
working, but occasionally saw his daughter Amy.
At times he'd go to a bar in Burbank called Shadney, and that
was a hangout for session musicians.
What's that called now? Yeah, we got to look that up.
Let's. See, let's let's fucking.
See. Let's check that out, Shadney.
The Shadney, yeah, sometimes he'd sit in there with his band

(50:52):
or any musicians, but there was no real real music career left
for him. OK, and how old is he now?
At this point, this is the 80s, nineteen 81 so.
He's in his mid 30s. He was born 4545, right, right,
right. Yes, he was 36.
So Jim had now been out of the music business for five years.

(51:13):
OK, He was living alone. He was isolated from friends and
any social contact. Sounds like a dream.
Awesome. Yeah, this is the life of a
hermit. And that's usually OK, right?
If you do it in the woods then it's fine.
Yeah, unless you're sending bombs to universities.
Yeah, right. He was battling severe mental
illness, and his condition was only getting worse.
Yeah, the disease seemed to takeover his life, turning his world

(51:36):
into a personal hell. Sounds rough.
Yeah, top among those tormentorswas the voice of his mother,
which would not leave him alone,which that would.
That would suck. That would be awful.
Oh yeah, imagine the voice of your mother constantly in your
head. Oh my God, it's already there.
Kind of is, yeah. I kind of like the voice of my
mother. Of course he would.

(51:57):
Benjamin, let's go to Piggly Wiggly.
OK, Mom. That sounds pleasant.
Yeah, Yeah. My father on the other hand,
Sure, yes, Oh my God. Yeah.
So at this point, his mother's joining in and it's it's not
good. It has the whole family reunion
up there nightmare. So then at one point in 1983,

(52:18):
the voices led him to become fixated upon the idea of killing
his mom. Oh my gosh.
The thought wouldn't leave him, and by the end of the year, his
mother would be dead. Wow.
The voices Gordon The voices Gordon heard shamed him so
deeply he rarely told anyone about them.
And that's one thing your mothercan do probably better than

(52:38):
anyone else, because she alreadyknows everything you went
through in. Your entire life.
Oh, of course that's where they can pick and pick.
Oh God. Yes, but act like it's love.
Right, right. Jerry, what did you find out
about the bar the Shandy? OK, so the Shandies, the shade,
it was a, it was a, it was an old pub where, yeah, musical

(52:59):
artists would pass by. It closed down in 1998.
Oh, we missed. We just missed.
It we just missed. It 27 years late.
Yeah, and so it was. Apparently it was like a boarded
up eyesore. For years, I think until like
2011 something called Casa Cabo Bar and Grill tried to purchase
and open it up but it didn't work out. 2015 another brewpub

(53:20):
tried to open up and it was alsojust lasted a couple of years
and now it's a it's a Brews Brothers brewpub.
What? Yeah, it's a it's they gonna go.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not.
It's a it's a nice generic ShaneBrews Brothers.
Alright, interesting. Ohh, I know exactly where that

(53:40):
is. Yeah.
What is? Yeah, it's literally right.
Well, yeah, 'cause. They I went there when my son
was born. They have a smaller Bruce
Brothers in North Hollywood and then they opened up a larger hub
apparently where Chattnes used to.
Be wow Burbank is cool of ghosts.
Wow. I love that.
Oh, yeah. It's definitely haunted with all
these musicians and maybe like, you know, Jim Gordon's mother's
voice. Yeah.

(54:01):
Jim, you didn't do the laundry right, Jim.
Jim, what kind of chord progression was that?
You should just quit. Maybe a girl would like you
better if you took a shower, Jim.
Punch her in the face, Jim. Oh no, it's like psycho.
Yeah. So his mother, she was one of
his closest companions. She believed that drinking and
drugs were his problem, rather than a symptom of something far

(54:22):
more serious. I mean, she's not.
All wrong, but then there's alsothe component where she's
totally. Wrong.
No, she seems good. Like, yeah, like she wants to
help him, but you're going to have to help yourself first.
Right. And yeah, and back then people
didn't realize that the drugs and alcohol was very much like a
self medicating strategy to cover up what was actually going

(54:43):
on. Absolutely.
So while Gordon began to imaginethat many people were torturing
him at the time, the main voice in his head remained his
mother's. Wow.
That's fucking rough. Very we need, we need some
psychologist in here to break that down.
How much time they got right, Jim had.
Jim had been planning to relocate his 71 year old mother,

(55:04):
OSA Marie Gordon, to Seattle, where his older brother lived
with his family. She had been living in Tahoe,
but it moved back to San Fernando to take care of her
partner's estate. Jim and his mother had been
distant, communicating mostly through the voices in his head.
Oh, so telepathy. Yeah, one way.
Psychopathy and telepathy at thesame time.

(55:26):
The afternoon before the murder,Jim went to her house, but she
wasn't home. Good day to not be home.
Yeah, absolutely. So.
The next day, June 3rd, 1983, inthe depths of his mental
illness, Jim Gordon returned to his mother's house and in a
violent frenzy, he attacked her with a hammer.
Wow. He struck her in the skull four
times before grabbing a butcher knife and fatally stabbing her

(55:48):
repeatedly. The Hammer The hammer does play
into the the sensibilities of a drummer.
You know I. Wonder if he kept the beat?
Yeah, like it was like, wow, youcan clearly see like the two and
the four right in reason, right in these abrasions right here.
Oh, that is horrible. Yeah, sorry, I'm off time.
Well. It's like, yeah, seriously.
It's like, wait, if you look at the, if you look at the wounds,

(56:10):
you can clearly see. Yeah, yeah.
The most beautiful piece of music ever written in his poor
mother's skull. Oh God.
I'm sorry. So the the final time he stabbed
her with such force it pinned her to the floor.
Fuck. Michael Myers, yeah.

(56:32):
Screams from the house were reported to the police, who
responded quickly. Detectives at the scene found a
letter from Jim's brother discussing the family issues, as
well as a notebook belonging belonging to Jim's mother.
The police went to Jim's house early the next morning, so they
got there quickly enough, but hewas already gone.
OK, that guy's on the move. Yeah, he'd been drinking very
heavily, consuming Long Island iced teas at the favorite bar in

(56:56):
Burbank. That'll that will do it.
That'll do it. I.
Love a good Long Island. For people that don't know what
a Long Island Iced Tea is, it's everything It's.
Everything it isn't, it is deathsentence the next day.
I've never had them out here in New York.
I got them all the time 'cause they were like $3.
That's. Yeah, in a pint.
Glass. Yeah.
No, they're pretty. They're they're more expensive

(57:16):
out there. They get a little pricey.
Every time someone orders a LongIsland Iced Tea, I'm always
like, you're trying to get somewhere buddy, aren't you?
If you want a Long Island iced tea, just save yourself the
money, get a get a a curly strawand just go to someone's gas
tank. And just.
Suck it right up, because holy hell.
Basically the same thing. Yeah, and he would later have
several bottles of vodka at home.

(57:36):
His blood alcohol level was tested and it was 3.3%.
Whoa, that is a hell of a lot. When I was at passages rehab.
Small plug. There was a chick there that
said she blew a 4A point. Wow.
Yeah. Or 04.
Whatever. Yeah.
And she was this super sweet momfrom Wyoming.
Yeah. And yeah, apparently.

(57:57):
And then she showed us all, like, because she was obviously
arrested. Yeah.
Yeah. Drinking.
Yeah. And driving.
But it was. Yeah, that's what they said.
They said it was the highest in the state of history.
Wow. You're supposed to be dead.
Good for her. Yeah, she was kind of proud of
it. Yeah, it was a funny place where
everyone is kind of proud. You know, it's just like, you
know, females taking over male dominated.
Exactly what it. Was kind of love it.

(58:19):
Jim was nearly unconscious when they had found him.
They found him curled up under his coffee table, crying and
apologizing. Wow.
Yeah, yeah. Curled up under his coffee
table. Fuck.
But apologizing to who? Himself with his mother in his
head. Yeah, she's still you.
Imagine he thought the voices were going to stop and they

(58:41):
didn't. Fuck.
That is. Even worse, it's all coming from
inside the brain. Took out his mom for nothing.
Nothing in. His own words, Jim said.
I did it, I did it. I'm sorry, but she was torturing
me. You have no idea.
That's crazy. She didn't know either.
She did. She had no idea.
And I also kind of like feel forhim.

(59:02):
I feel this, this pain that's like oozing out of him that
that's still and he made it worse and that sucks.
Following his arrest, Jim Gordonwas properly diagnosed with
schizophrenia, which. Fucking finally, which took way
too long. A little too late, apparently,
yeah, However, due to changes inCalifornia law influenced by the

(59:22):
federal Insanity Defense Reform Act.
OK, say that five times fast. Insanity Defense Reform Act.
Instead I need to dispense reform.
No, can't do it. Can't do it even once.
He was not permitted to use an insanity defense.
Really. Was this post Hinckley?
Cause Hinckley got off basically.
Yeah, so this was 83 Hinckley. Was that 82 or something?

(59:45):
Somewhere around, remember? Yeah, Just a year before Jim's
court trial, California passed alaw making insanity pleas much
more difficult to prove. To qualify for an insanity plea
in 1983, the defendant had to not know what they were doing at
the time of the crime. Jim clearly knew what he was
doing, so he didn't qualify. Wow.
Yeah, but he thought he was killing the voice in his head.

(01:00:08):
I mean, he went to his mother's house, right?
To kill the voices in his head. Yeah, true.
Despite the fact that six psychiatrists testified Jim was
insane, he was convicted of second degree murder.
The judge, however, understood the situation and recognized
Jim's mental state. On July 10th, 1984, Jim Gordon
was sentenced to 16 years to life.

(01:00:29):
Wow, that's. Not so bad.
That's a very. Very like. 16 years.
In his late 30s, he's going to be out in his mid 50s, yeah.
Or he could be in there for lifefor second degree murder, a
relatively lenient sentence under the circumstances.
Yeah, it's like a manslaughter sentence.
Not too shabby. Some have argued that Jim should
have been diverted into private mental healthcare.

(01:00:49):
Probably. Rather than facing the criminal
justice system, Yeah, he became eligible for parole in 1991 and
many times after, but he was denied each time after he
refused to attend hearings. Maybe prison was the best place
for him. Honestly, you know, as long as
he's just gauged up supervised. Eating soup.

(01:01:11):
Eating soup. Lot of soups, toilet soup,
toilet soup. In 2014, a deputy District
Attorney noted that Gordon remained seriously
psychologically incapacitated. Oh, so he's not better.
Decades in prison and the US penal system didn't make him
better. So weird.
Cheer up, Charlie. Yeah, what?
So they said he posed a danger when he was not medicated, so he

(01:01:33):
was rediagnosed with schizophrenia in 2017.
Despite his incarceration, Gordon continued to receive
royalties from all the records he played on.
That's a lot of stamps, baby. He's living the King's life in
prison. God, that's fantastic.
His commissary is good. Yeah, you probably got Tang He
and definitely a television. Yeah.

(01:01:56):
This made him one of the most financially stable inmates in
the California prison system. OK, so dead broke on the streets
or the richest person in the US prison system.
Hey, which one do you want? I.
Don't I don't that's. Are those the only choices?
Those are the only choices. You know what, I'm already broke

(01:02:16):
out on the streets. I'll just take this one.
I know what it's like. I'm talking on the streets, but
OK. Yeah.
Give me all the ramen. Yeah, give Kyle all the ramen.
I love ramen, although it's so much worse for you than you
thought. I know than I thought.
Well the trick is you only use half the packet and then you and
then you like season it yourselfor none of the packet season the
whole thing. You know what I do?
I don't use the. I don't use the noodles.

(01:02:37):
I just use the seasoning. I don't even want to fucking
hear about since I don't even know why.
I bother. Do you have voices in your head,
Ben? I do.
He's like, just just throw the chicken into the oven, don't
salt it at all. Chef Boyar don't, but I just say
whatever ship where I don't, I am doing that.
Yeah, I'm only using all the cheese mom, right?

(01:02:59):
Yeah, my, I remember my dad trying to explain serving sizes
to me when I was when I was like14.
There's like, shut up, dad. But in hindsight, he was
correct. Yeah, yeah, pizzas are 5 or 4,
but. Gordon spent the whole Gordon
spent the next 4 decades of his life in prison, quiet and
withdrawn, heavily medicated to the point he was often described

(01:03:19):
as a zombie due to the powerful antipsychotic drugs that were
administered. Wow.
I mean, at the same time, I'm, I'm.
He might. I wonder if that was better for
him. Yeah.
It sounds sounds like that. Yeah.
His life behind bars was uneventful and his music career
became a distant memory. In one of his last and only
interviews, Jim Gordon describedhis mental state as, quote, a

(01:03:41):
jail cell that is always on fire.
Wow. Oh my God, that's fucking.
That is terrifying. That is awful.
I'm actually, I'm very happy that he's dead.
I am for him. No, it sounds like he was.
He is yearning the sweet releaseof fucking death A.
Jail cell that's always on fire.Oh my God, yeah.

(01:04:02):
Kind of scary. Very scary, Pretty much.
So Jim Gordon died on Monday, March 13th, 2023.
Wow. In prison.
Really. At the California Medical
Facility in Vacaville. I wonder what his thoughts on
Trump were. He had no idea Trump was ever.
In office, I mean, honestly, if you're in prison, I'll be

(01:04:22):
watching TV. Being like, that's not, we're
not like that's not real. Not if it's real.
Yeah, I do that now. This is a prison that
specializes in medical and psychiatric care.
Wow, he was 77 years old. Wow so sick he outlived his mom
by 6 years. Dude suffered for long enough.
Yep, a prison that's always on fire at jail.

(01:04:43):
Wow. Yeah, and that'll bring us too.
Final thoughts Your parents are right, the drums bring out the
devil in you. Never play the drums.
No, it's so, yeah, yes, that's my final.
Never play the drums. Don't.
Play, don't play the fucking drums.
I've never met a drummer story that's positive.

(01:05:05):
Look at the guy for Van Halen, he lost both his arms or
something like that. Def.
Leppard def. Leppard, He lost one arm, he.
Lost an arm? See that drummer?
Wow. Be careful out there, drummers.
Yeah. Never trust one.
Never be 1. And also, you know, it seems
like the mother did the right thing and she was very kind.
But just in my case, I'm thinking, I'm never going to
criticize my son if I see that he's crazy.

(01:05:27):
That's nice of you. I'm just going to be like, OK,
whatever you want, whatever you say, yes.
Well, that's going to. That's why he's going to go down
a horrible path if you. Yeah.
Not, not yes. Well then.
He's not going to kill me. Not whatever you want, whatever
you. Yeah, he's going to kill.
That's exactly how he kills you.Yeah.
So it's going to be like, you were always so God damn a Korea
bull. Shut the fuck up.
And then your last words would be like I was good to you Kaden.
I was good to as you choke in your own blood bro.

(01:05:48):
Pretty much. I get stabbed through the
ground. Yeah, in.
Yeah. I think, no, I think this is my
final thought is, you know, thisis just a good lesson for mental
health and just being just just having having an awareness of
people that are the weird quiet ones in the corner, overly,
overly creatively genius out. It all comes with a price.

(01:06:11):
You know what everyone's going through.
It really does, yeah. Thoughts, you know.
Sorry, I was just, if you're going through something that's
really hard to articulate and itdoes suck because now if you say
you're suicidal to a therapist, they have to report it and it
fucks with your life insurance. That is crazy.
But anyway, try to talk to a trusted person.
Yeah. Wow, true.
It's crazy. Damn.
Well, there was my life insurance.

(01:06:32):
Oh yeah, all of us. No.
Life insurance. Right, also that.
I think I'm paying the government $1,000,000 when I
die, yeah. Yeah, thoughts go out to his
daughter Amy. Like I said, she was born in
1968. She actually gets all of his
royalties to this day. Good.
Well, I hope she's good. I hope she just doesn't have to
work. That'd be great.
Yeah. Complicated life.

(01:06:53):
Dynamic with her and her father I could imagine.
Yeah, and his ex-girlfriend, Rita Coolidge, she was actually
very happy, and she found a lot of comfort knowing that all of
his royalties are going directlyto Amy.
So, yeah, great. It's good.
All right. Well, that's a fantastic
episode, that. Was yeah, that was I had.
That was a lot. Yeah, Jim Gordon, The Life and
death and Times. Yeah, of America's lesser known.

(01:07:15):
Drummer. Yes.
And do you hear that? Uh oh.
You've got mail. Hello.
We have got a mail bag. Let's go.
Let's. Do it on the Spotify comments
for wide receiver serial deceiver Randall Woodfield.
I love that title. Yes, Shane Hebenstall said that
he's very surprised they didn't try to get him on death row.

(01:07:37):
How did he avoid the death penalty for his extensive crime
list? And that is simply because he
was only convicted for one murder.
So it's very hard to get the death penalty if you only kill
one person, which, yeah, take that information how you will.
I only killed one. Why are you trying to kill me
now? Serious.
I mean, look at what they're doing with the Luigi Mangione,

(01:07:59):
yes? Salty, 24, said you guys should
plan a field trip to see Randallin prison.
Nice. Oh my God.
I've got a couple here as well. Yes, I want to read 1 from
Where's the Beer? Where's the beer?
They say think you found your third, she's a keeper.
That's you is. It me.

(01:08:20):
You're a keeper. Oh well.
I'm. Happy to be.
Here yes a. Little blown by all of this
brand new information. And Meeg says groove is in the
heartbend. That's right, but they wanted us
to go to the prison so that you could see for yourself in person
if he was very tall and athleticand handsome.
Oh, I see so. I'll be the judge of that.

(01:08:41):
Fantastic. Thank you to everybody.
If you want to request an episode, give us a shout at
[e-mail] to patreon.com/die bud.
We got 2 podcasts, 1 Patreon, and we got like 8 episodes a
week coming out, something like that.
Yeah, we got, well, we got a BenKiss of politics will be two of
those. OK Bud, Four of those, one death
and entertainment and we're building a studio that's going

(01:09:03):
to look real nice. We are.
Going. Yeah, so I love it.
So I'm going to say hail yourself.
And then Jerry, you say until next week.
OK, Hail yourself. Until next week.
Don't go dying on us. Bye bye.
You have just heard a. True Hollywood murder mystery.
I have never seen anything like this before.

(01:09:24):
The movies, Broadway, music, television, all of it.
A place that manufacturers nightmares.
OK, everybody, that's a wrap. Good night, please drive home
carefully and come back again soon.