June 21, 2025 • 50 mins
In this episode, we hear wise words from deathwalker and educator Zenith Virago about the best ways to prepare for death, both our own and the people we love. Life insurance risk specialist Dianna Pechercyzk also shares her experience and advice.
Zenith Virago's Official Website - listen to Zen’s TedX Talk here - and info on booking a Zoom or in person consultation, or to enrol in her Deathwalker courses.
Really Useful Death & Dying Information For Everyone from the Natural Death Care Organisation.
Death Cafe info here.
Death Is Not The End theme music written, recorded & performed by Peter Head - he also recorded an instrumental version of ‘Long As I Can See The Light’
‘Songs Don’t Care’ from Lo Carmen & Peter Head album The Apple Don’t Fall Far From The Tree.
Incidental music thanks to the Mobygratis & Musopen Music Libraries.
Music on this episode licensed by APRA Amcos.
©Black Tambourine Productions 2025 ...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Just remember that death is not the end.
SPEAKER_05 (00:13):
In her TEDx talk entitled Disrupting Death, The
Guide to Dying Well, ZenithFarago states...
Dying well on your own terms,prepared and supported, can be
your greatest subversive act,but it will absolutely be one of
the kindest gifts you can giveto the people that love you.
(00:35):
Zen is a highly regardededucator, speaker, celebrant and
holistic death walker from ByronBay, Australia, and she's been
working in this field for over35 years now.
She will talk to and advisepeople in need of support around
dying and guide those who wantto take care of their person
(00:55):
themselves after death,empowering them to do things
like washing and dressing thebody themselves, transporting
the body, building their owncoffin and other do-it-yourself
elements of death care.
Zen says, death is one of ourgreatest teachers.
It teaches about our courage andour capacity.
(01:18):
It teaches us a lot about lifeand living life to the fullest
with no regrets.
She also says, we are all deathwalkers, walking towards our own
deaths.
And she suggests we do it well.
SPEAKER_01 (01:35):
I've been working with death and dying with people
who are bereaved or who aredying.
I've been assisting people to doas much continual care as they
want.
So whether that involves caringfor people at home while they're
dying, caring for the body afterthe person's died, or if it's a
(01:56):
sudden death, then taking thebody home.
And sort of benefiting from thatin between period because it's a
once only moment and what you'redoing there is you're ending the
life and the dying and you arebeginning the process of letting
(02:16):
the body go which is whathappens usually at the ceremony
so i would say i'm a communityresource in our area from you
know just being very availableto people and also making death
very you know very accessibleand very normal in our community
(02:38):
how
SPEAKER_05 (02:38):
wonderful you sound like an incredibly important
Usually
SPEAKER_01 (02:43):
when people say what do you do, I say I'm having a
great life.
SPEAKER_05 (02:47):
What a good answer.
SPEAKER_01 (02:48):
It's certainly beyond anything I was expecting
to do with my life when I was ayoung person, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_05 (03:05):
Is that generally the kind of way it works, that
you're immediately directed intothe system of standard kind of
death care facilities?
SPEAKER_01 (03:15):
Yeah, well, it depends, because, for example,
if you're in an aged carefacility, you don't normally get
admitted into there until youhave completed the form, and on
that form there is a space for afuneral director's information
of your choice, so that if youdie, they know what funeral but
(03:36):
there are more and moreindependent funeral people
setting up now lots of them arenow being run by women so really
I would encourage anybody who'slistening to start to really
make those inquiries just likeyou do or how you used to
instead of checking out travelagents and package deals you
(03:59):
know check out funeral deals andstart to ring those people
options because I think A lot ofthe funeral industry in
Australia is owned by one bigcompany, stroke corporation.
And for some people, you know,they take issue with that.
They want to support a smallindependent.
(04:20):
But whatever it is, Whoever youuse, what you want is the
employees of that business to beattentive, to be offering you
services for you to understandwhat you need and what you don't
need.
But also, you know, what thecost of that is so that, for
(04:43):
example, people want to buildtheir own coffees.
or they want to bring one thatthey've already bought because
the family have decorated that.
They may want to take care ofbits and pieces of that ceremony
on their own.
They may want to have acelebrant of their choice.
They may want to do a range ofthings, but you can't do those
(05:05):
things if you don't know whatyour choices are.
SPEAKER_05 (05:07):
Yeah.
Can it be difficult dealing withhospital staff?
No, because
SPEAKER_01 (05:20):
the executor of the will has the legal right to the
body, so the hospital does notown that body.
So they may have a policy thatsays they only release the body
to a funeral director.
But the funeral director doesn'town the body either.
It's the executor or the next ofkin.
(05:43):
And so it's worth discussingthat with the hospital in
advance so that you can find outwhat they require from you in
order to be able to do that.
But we have been doing that herefor 25 years, especially when
that's a stillborn baby or asmall child.
(06:03):
Especially if that death hasoccurred suddenly.
So often sudden death, therewill need to be an autopsy to
find out the cause of death.
But it's absolutely possible totake the body home after that
autopsy.
But of course you must keep itcold so that it doesn't
deteriorate in any way.
(06:25):
But that time with the body,especially after sudden death,
when you wave goodbye tosomeone, you know, they set off
for the evening.
Expecting to see them fordinner.
That's right.
And they don't come home.
And in between, you've got theexperience of the phone call
that tells you they've died insome sudden way.
(06:46):
You've got...
going to the morgue to identifytheir body you've got to wait
until the body comes back fromthe autopsy and so a lot of
people would experience maybe aweek before they can actually
touch their person and so havingthe body at home being able to
(07:07):
be with it for a anywhere up tofive days, which is the New
South Wales law.
It'd be different, obviously, ineach state or wherever you are.
But in some countries, it'sabsolutely standard that the
body stays at home on a coldplate.
Which countries do you know?
(07:29):
In Holland.
In Holland, okay.
What we are doing in here, we'vehad a cold plate here for the
last maybe...
maybe 15 years, and now thereare at least another 20 or 30 in
Australia as more and morepeople have become holistic.
SPEAKER_05 (07:48):
That's more kind of returning to older practices,
isn't it?
I mean, it was quite a normalthing for a family to keep a
family member at home who haddied.
SPEAKER_01 (07:56):
That's right.
It was always the family caredfor the body.
And there's no law that says youhave to have that body from
death to disposal.
in three days but in Australiait's become a bit of a standard
thing that it's very quick butfor example in England it could
be up to it could begin at threeweeks And then some people wait
(08:22):
a month before that body isburied or cremated because the
volume of people, they have toget in a queue to have access to
the graveyard or thecrematorium.
And it can take much longer.
So people in England think amonth's pretty normal.
Whereas we think, oh God, that'sa long time.
(08:44):
Whereas for us, I think threedays is too fast.
Right.
unless it's what you want.
If you want it, great.
But especially with suddendeath, because you're still in
shock from the death itself andoften in shock from hearing how
the death occurred, getting thatphone call.
(09:05):
And so by the time you come outof shock, it's all done.
And your memory of that isaffected by...
being in a physical shock anemotional shock I can imagine
SPEAKER_05 (09:18):
you're completely incapable of making choices
SPEAKER_01 (09:23):
yeah but there are more and more people who have
especially so for example inthis area where our cultural
change has occurred and peopleare very familiar because I'm
always raving on or people aretalking to me and they're
spreading that information andI've spent the last 10 years
(09:44):
teaching as much as I can toanyone that comes to the
workshops about what their legalrights are and what they can do
so it was always my hope thatwithin each community there
would be someone who held thatbody of knowledge and that they
would be there to support theircommunity whatever that
community was and I think thatis happening and that is
(10:07):
happening and it has a sort ofit used to have a ripple out
effect but now it's got like awildfire effect
SPEAKER_05 (10:15):
Thank you.
Death cafes are described as asafe place where people, often
(10:37):
strangers, gather to eat cake,drink tea and discuss death,
with the only objective being toincrease awareness of death with
a view to helping people makethe most of their finite lives.
They're informal occasions,group-directed, with no agenda,
objectives or themes.
They're run on a non-profitbasis.
(10:59):
They just guarantee interestingconversations.
The only constant is based onthe concept that nothing marks
to community of the living likesharing food and drink by Swiss
sociologist and anthropologistBernard Kretas, who started the
original Café Mortels, the firstdeath café, in 2004.
(11:21):
They're not a grief support orcounselling session, they're
simply a discussion group.
And anyone who is keen to applyto host and facilitate an event
can check it out online and putin an application.
Well over 20,000 of these eventshave been held so far all over
the world.
There's also the End WorldProject based in LA that holds
(11:44):
virtual and in-person eventsoffering fresh perspectives with
a focus on end of life with acommitment to infusing wonder,
joy and hope into theseconversations while also
tackling the tough stuff.
There's the Sydney Festival ofDeath and Dying founded by
celebrant Victoria Spence whichfocuses on not just what death
(12:06):
can take from you but what deathcan give to you In the UK,
there's the Before I DieFestival.
There's the Kicking the BucketFestival.
There's many others.
There's a whole bunch of peoplein communities all around the
world that are interested todemystify and talk more about
death.
(12:27):
And if you're one of thosepeople that are interested to
learn and talk more, then youshould seek them out.
Do you find that after speakingwith you, people start to relax
more?
a little bit on their journeytowards death, if you're talking
with people that are dealingwith a terminal disease?
SPEAKER_01 (12:45):
Yeah, I generally find that.
But also the families.
I think once people know whattheir options are...
then they can consider those andthen make decisions that are
right for them.
And a lot of the fears orconcerns around death seem to be
about control, you know, thattheir pain will be out of
(13:07):
control.
They don't know what's going tohappen.
They don't know where they'regoing to be.
They want to desperately stay athome, but they might have to go
to hospital.
They don't know what will happento their children as they grow
up.
So the more people understandwhat their choices are, are then
the more empowered they feel themore things can calm down the
(13:29):
more they can do things or thefamily can put things into place
if the person is unable to dothat but really it's a bit like
stumbling around in the dark andthen someone bringing in a torch
and then gradually you find thelight switch and put the light
on and you know that feelingwhen you find the light switch
and suddenly you can seeeverything lit up.
(13:54):
So it's sort of a bit like that,whereas really people don't make
any inquiry until it's happeningto them.
SPEAKER_00 (14:05):
They don't care when it comes knocking They don't
care if it's in
SPEAKER_04 (14:15):
the way Of everything you're trying
SPEAKER_00 (14:18):
to do Do
SPEAKER_05 (14:37):
you find that there are many people that you are
talking with that arecomfortable and ready before you
meet up with them?
SPEAKER_01 (14:47):
Yeah, a lot of people are okay about dying.
Some people don't want to diebecause they're fearful or
because they just don't want toleave behind what they're
leaving behind.
But a lot of people who livewell often die well because it's
a continuation of their life.
(15:08):
And just like they've doneeverything else as fully as
possible, they often think,well, I'm just going to do this
the best I can.
And they try to be as...
I don't know quite what the wordis, but let's say as helpful and
as informative as they can sothat the people that are
(15:30):
accompanying them when they liveon after that person's died,
what they have is a full journeyand they know they couldn't do
any more.
The person was as gracious andas courageous and as capable as
they could be.
And that's different foreveryone.
There is no standard way to die.
(15:53):
There's no standard way to diewell.
It's different for each person.
People will generally die asthey live.
So if someone's been veryfearful all their life, if
they've been afraid of livingfully, then that would be the
most natural way for them todie.
And so you can't expect them tosuddenly have a big change of
(16:16):
personality.
Sometimes that does happen butit's rare so generally you have
to bring a respect to who theyare in in the fullness of who
they are who they were when theywere alive but sometimes it's
too difficult for people toactually they don't have the
(16:37):
capacity so for example ifyou've never discussed your
personal life with anyone againdying is a very intimate
personal experience and suddenlyit's a bit like you know people
who never discuss sex with theirparents there's suddenly you
can't expect your parents tosuddenly start talking to you
(16:58):
about death because it's thesame sort of intimate experience
it's personal so but what youcan do is not expect a
discussion or a conversation,but communicate to them what
those issues are for you.
For example, I know it's scary.
(17:20):
I know it's difficult for you.
So acknowledge how they might befeeling, whatever that is.
And then say, but can I justtell you what I need?
It would be great for me if youcould let me know what you want
so that we can honor what youwant and give you what you want
and generally the easiest in tostart a conversation like that
(17:45):
is about music for the funeralbut if you've got someone who's
terrified of dying then that'snot going to be the right
approach because it's going tobe confronting but my experience
is If you can find the key toopen that up and to change the
(18:05):
word fear to concern.
Yes, right.
So, you know, what is it?
What part of dying are youconcerned about?
Yeah, that's really nice.
Because if you unpack it, thensometimes it's about they're sad
that they're not going to seetheir grandchildren grow up.
(18:25):
Or they're...
concerned that they might be inpain or they're concerned that
they might be a burden for theother family members or they're
concerned that they're going tolose control of their bladder or
their bowels or they're notgoing to be able to see or
something like that.
Or it can be somethingcompletely random that you could
(18:48):
never even imagine.
Like yesterday, I had aconversation.
I was doing a photo shoot andthe photographer and I were
speaking And she said, oh, youknow, I'm really fearful about
dying because of the dark.
I'm really scared of the dark.
And I said, yeah, but you knowthat if you read any reports or
(19:13):
the people who have nearly diedtell, it's always about the
light.
They always say there was abright light.
I was heading for the light.
You know, I went into the light.
I've actually never heardanybody say in those near-death
experiences, not my ownexperience, oh, it was pitch
(19:35):
black, it was really scary, itwas dark.
They all involve light.
And I said, so I don't knowbecause it's not my own
experience, but I wouldcertainly look at some of those
if you want because...
You know, there's nothing aboutdark.
And she said, oh, my God.
She said, I feel better already.
(19:55):
Right.
You know, because that's true.
She said, I've heard people saythat.
And she said, wow, that'samazing.
So sometimes it's just simple,rational conversations.
But if you hold something, youknow, it contracts.
And the more you discuss it...
Usually, it often expands andsometimes it can dissolve.
SPEAKER_05 (20:30):
Did you just kind of fall into it through
circumstance and realize youwere good at helping people with
dealing
SPEAKER_01 (20:37):
with death?
I did.
I did.
So like many people, a closefriend of mine died suddenly and
I went with her husband toidentify her body with him.
And as we were walking out, Isaid to him, you know, we can do
this ourselves.
We don't need to give her to astranger.
SPEAKER_05 (20:56):
How did you know that you could do it yourself?
You just knew the laws or hadyou read
SPEAKER_01 (21:01):
about it?
I worked in law and I just knewthat there would be a way.
And I said, do you want me totry and work that out?
and so on the way home from thehospital I called into a funeral
director, a small one inBangalore, for anyone who is
listening who knows this area,and I said, my best friend's
just died, you know, we want todo it ourselves.
(21:23):
Can you tell me what I need toknow?
And he said yes, which is very,very unusual.
SPEAKER_05 (21:29):
Yes, I'm sure there would be a lot of resistance
SPEAKER_01 (21:32):
often.
He was very helpful.
Not only did he tell me what Ineeded to know, he provided me
with all the paperwork and astretcher for her body and And
he also made this incredibleoffer, which was, you know, if
you want, I'll come and be insupport if you run into trouble,
but I won't interfere.
And I was young, I was in my30s, I was feisty, and I was
(21:54):
like, yeah, thanks very much.
So he came, but I didn't needany assistance.
I managed to get where we neededto go.
We've accomplished that.
We cremated her.
And in between, I wentimmediately almost to India.
And when I came back, I thought,I must go and thank that guy
because without him, I couldnever have done that.
(22:17):
And when I got back, the funeraldirectors had gone.
Really?
really and so I never got tothank him but what it what it
gave me was it gave me obviouslythis incredible ability but it
also gave me a way of beingwhich because he was so generous
to me and if he hadn't been thatgenerous I could never have done
(22:40):
that and so It's made me alwaysbe extremely generous.
So, you know, when people likeyou ring and say, you know, can
you do this or can we have someof your time?
I just say yes, because younever know what that person's
going to do with that or how asmall thing can grow.
It can, you know, it can be growexponentially.
SPEAKER_05 (23:03):
Saying yes and being kind goes a long way.
and people in communication with
SPEAKER_01 (23:18):
people who might have died.
If I am going to visit someonewho's dying and they only have
enough energy for a smallconversation, then I think the
most important question that Iask is, what do you think will
happen when you die?
And then you listen to whatthey're saying and often they
(23:39):
will say, oh, I'm going to meetso-and-so, people who they loved
who have died before.
And again, we just had thatrecently, probably in the last
year and a half, where someone,an older woman who was not sick
but also wanted to die becauseshe was becoming very frail and
(24:02):
she didn't want to deteriorateanymore.
So she just decided to stopeating and drinking and she
spoke with her doctor.
She was perfectly sound mind andshe stayed at home with her son
and his family and she died andthe children the young children
were there and I asked her thatquestion about maybe five days
(24:24):
before she died and she saidthat her brother and her parents
would be there for her and whenshe did die in the arms of her
son he said that when she diddie all he could think of was
how great it was that she wasgoing to be reunited with her
(24:47):
family because when she answeredmy question she was radiant at
the thought of it and so he saidhe was crying obviously and he
was sad but he was obviously soincredibly taken by how
courageous and capable she wasin her dying to so she didn't
(25:08):
need to go to Switzerland allshe had to do was stop eating
and drinking and that is also avery useful piece of information
because it's not like us whenwe're fit and healthy reduce you
know fasting it will take usmuch longer but when the body is
already frail it's alreadyclosing down and someone wants
(25:30):
to do that it doesn't take muchit usually takes about 10 days
10 to 15 days But it's a verygentle way to go.
And the children, thegrandchildren were coming in.
They were saying goodbye to her.
And then gradually she sort ofjust slept a lot.
Right.
And then had a littleconversation each night with her
(25:52):
son.
And as I say, I see that family.
I see them often.
And, you know, whenever we talkabout his mom, we both go to
this place of incredible,incredible joy and respect and
appreciation that she was soclear about what she wanted and
(26:13):
so courageous and that foreveryone it was the very best
experience it could be.
It's beautiful.
SPEAKER_05 (26:21):
Yeah, it's a really beautiful story.
It's wonderful.
SPEAKER_01 (26:30):
I speak to a lot of people that I never meet.
because it's often really supersupportive to have a really
challenging conversation on thetelephone because the person at
the other end is in the comfortof their own home they've
usually got themselvescomfortable they don't do it on
the hop because it's a bigconversation to have so they're
(26:53):
in a comfy chair or they'resitting at their desk or their
kitchen table they've got a padand a pen the system so I often
just say to people let's justchat on the phone we don't need
need to meet because I can hearwhat they're saying but I can
also hear at another level ofwhat's underneath that generally
and if I'm not having to look atthem then I'm not like we all do
(27:17):
judging someone on theirphysical appearance or you know
assumptions we might make aboutthat person just on a visual so
when because we're closing downour visual sense we are turning
up our oral sense so I'm reallylistening to what they're saying
But I'm also listening to whatthey're not saying.
(27:41):
And over the years, I've justfound that extremely helpful for
them, also for me, but mostlyfor
SPEAKER_05 (27:48):
them.
Yeah, that's really nice.
You must have developedincredible sensitivities to
what's not been said.
I
SPEAKER_01 (27:56):
have, yeah.
Of
SPEAKER_05 (27:57):
course.
SPEAKER_01 (27:59):
And it's a practice.
The more you practice something,the better at it you get.
I wouldn't say, and many of myold friends, I can tell you,
would not say I was always asensitive person.
SPEAKER_05 (28:17):
I asked Zen what she would advise as the best thing
that we could be doing toprepare while we're still alive
and in good health.
for our eventual deaths.
SPEAKER_01 (28:26):
The paperwork for people is the advanced health
care plan, a will, a power ofattorney.
These are all documents thatanyone over 18 should have.
SPEAKER_05 (28:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:41):
Especially a will, because if you die without a
will, it's just a big hassle forthe people.
A
SPEAKER_05 (28:46):
nightmare for the
SPEAKER_01 (28:47):
family.
You're left behind.
One piece of paper, it can take10 minutes.
You'll buy a kit from thenewsagent.
If you don't have a complicatedblended family or anything like
that, or stacks of money, thenyou're better to fill in a form
from the newsagent and havesomething rather than nothing,
(29:08):
really.
You can even
SPEAKER_05 (29:09):
download it from the internet.
Probably.
You can, because that's the kindof will I have, although I was
just actually vaguing out,thinking, where did I put that
in my computer?
Like, I made it, but I'm notquite sure where it is, so I'd
better rectify that myself.
Well, you may need to print itout and sign it.
(29:31):
I do.
UNKNOWN (29:34):
Yeah, paperwork.
SPEAKER_05 (29:36):
Paperwork.
Statistics suggest that around40% of Australians will die
without having written theirwill, and in America this figure
goes up to more like 70%.
This is referred to as dyinginterstate.
It's really difficult andoverwhelming for those left
(29:57):
behind, who will need to getletters of administration from
the Supreme Court or similar,There are laws as to how estates
must be distributed that won'ttake into account any personal
wishes.
And if the person that dieddoesn't have a partner or
children, their assets may go tothe state, which nobody wants to
happen.
(30:17):
Anything is better than nothing.
Even if you think you havenothing much of value so it's
not important, it is definitelyimportant.
I've heard so many terriblestories about families being
torn apart by disputes and it'sreally just the least we can do
to lessen the pain of our futuredeaths for those who love us.
(30:40):
It's actually really easy tomake a basic legally reviewed
will online for under$200 oreven just with one of those kits
that you can buy at the postoffice for about$20.
Do-it-yourself rules are legal,but they do often lead to
disputes and challenges due toambiguous wording.
(31:01):
And with the average cost ofresolving disputes over
do-it-yourself rules beingaround$200,000, they're not
really advised.
Getting your estate planning inorder with living wills,
advanced healthcare plans orhealthcare directives is also
incredibly important.
And these can be created at thesame time as your will or
(31:24):
separately.
NaturalDeathCareCenter.org has afree form you can download with
really useful facts forpreparing for death and dying.
And legally reviewed online willproviders such as SafeWill.com
in Australia, FreeWill.com inthe US, FareWill.com in the UK
(31:48):
walk you through the wholeplanning process.
Life insurance is also wellworth looking into, even though
it can be a complex andtime-consuming process.
Just check it out.
When I first embarked on thisproject, I had no assets apart
from my songs, a few vintagedresses and a couple of
(32:09):
broken-down guitars, and I didnot understand why it was
important to think about any ofthis stuff.
To write a will?
But now that I know, I havebecome that annoying person that
constantly asks friends andfamily if they have written
theirs, and I send links forspecial will writing offers,
etc., Most importantly, I thinkjust breaking through the
(32:32):
discomfort of discussing ourfuture deaths and letting each
other know what we hope for orwould prefer in the event of our
deaths or in the event of beingincapacitated and unable to make
decisions for ourselves is theleast that we can do.
My friend Diana works as a riskspecialist in insurance and I
(32:53):
asked her if she could help meget a grip on a bunch of things
I knew absolutely nothing aboutwills, insurance and
superannuation.
And as well as going deep onthis and all kinds of other
tangents that we'll hear moreabout down the track, she also
shared this really intimatestory that I thought was really
(33:14):
meaningful.
So you have a personal story,don't you, about what happened
when your mum died when you wereyoung?
SPEAKER_03 (33:24):
Yeah, so I think that may be part of the reason
why I'm got into life insurancenow is because she didn't have
life insurance she died wellwhat we would call unexpectedly
when I was 15 I've got threesisters so there was four of us
(33:44):
and when she died we didn't knowshe was going to die even though
she was sick with cancer for acouple of years it was every
time she went into hospital itwas always I'm coming out You
know, I'm not going to die fromthis cancer.
It's, you know, I'm going tobeat it.
And, you know, we believed herbecause you believe what your
(34:05):
mum tells you.
And her will...
I mean, we were kids, so wedidn't see it until quite a...
I don't remember exactly thetimelines because
SPEAKER_05 (34:17):
obviously...
SPEAKER_03 (34:19):
How old were you, darling?
I was 15.
And...
Had your mum
SPEAKER_05 (34:28):
ever talked to you about a will or what might
SPEAKER_03 (34:32):
happen after she died?
No, because there was four ofus, it was four kids is a lot
for one person to take on.
Had there been life insurance,someone probably could have
taken all four of us and we didhave...
like some of mum's, one of mum'sbest friends in particular who
(34:56):
wanted to take all four of us,but she just couldn't afford to.
So we got split up and mum,yeah, mum never, I don't
remember mum ever talking to usabout what would happen to us if
she died, except that she didn'twant my dad to get us.
And cause he was an abusivealcoholic who we left when I was
(35:17):
little.
So she did have a will, But Ithink it was mostly to make sure
that he wasn't going to get anycustody of us.
And I don't think people talkedabout life insurance to women.
Money conversations, men havethem all the time, but women
don't.
So someone said to my mum, youknow, when she became a single
(35:40):
mother, buy this small lifeinsurance policy.
Your superannuation can pay forit so that if you die, then...
your girls will be okay, shewould have done it for sure.
She didn't know she was going todie.
We didn't even really get to saygoodbye properly because she was
drugged up.
When we were in hospital, one ofthe many times we were in
(36:02):
hospital, this one particulartime they were like, okay, we're
just going to take your mum to ahospice.
And I'm like, I'm 15, I'm like,what's a hospice?
And they said, oh, it's whereshe can just be more
comfortable.
I'm like, oh, okay, that soundsgreat.
You know, even though she was ina nice hospital, well, nice
enough, you know, this otherplace that is more comfortable
(36:23):
sounds great.
Let's go there.
And we got there, and she wasdoped up on morphine at this
stage to make her morecomfortable, which, again, it
was like, I didn't know thatthat's what they give you, you
know, when things are really,really, really bad.
And...
(36:43):
Then they just took all four ofus into a room and said, you
know your mum's going to die,right?
(37:04):
And we were just like, no.
SPEAKER_02 (37:06):
Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_03 (37:09):
And then...
We had to say goodbye, and then,like, I don't know, what it felt
like the next day.
I think maybe she was in therefor a few days, but, you know,
time's all funny, and that wasit.
And she didn't wake up.
SPEAKER_05 (37:23):
Oh, Di, I'm so sorry.
That's so fast and awful.
I can't imagine what that's likefor daughters.
SPEAKER_03 (37:36):
Well, my little sister was nine, you know, so...
I don't think...
Did you have an
SPEAKER_05 (37:42):
adult with you?
Yeah, I don't really remember.
SPEAKER_03 (37:45):
Yeah, my aunties and my grandparents, you know,
everyone was there.
Yeah, we went by ourselves.
But no one was
SPEAKER_05 (37:51):
really very clear about what was actually
happening?
Or was everyone taken bysurprise?
SPEAKER_03 (37:58):
Well, by the time she got to the hospice, and this
nurse took us in this room andtold us this, then...
Everyone came, you know, I mean,or everyone she knew who, well,
who wanted to say goodbye, cameand said goodbye.
And I think I remember we evenslept there in this big waiting
(38:23):
room.
Everyone just camped over on thefloor,
SPEAKER_05 (38:25):
waiting.
Were you there when she died?
Mm-hmm.
Do you remember what that waslike?
SPEAKER_03 (38:38):
Yeah, I remember.
It was pretty surreal.
We were all just sitting aroundher bed and when someone...
I've seen mum die and I watchedmy grandfather die a couple of
years after that and I haven'tseen anyone else die.
But there were similaritiesbetween the way that they
(38:59):
breathe in the last few hourssort of thing and The breathing
changes and then you're like,oh, is this going to be the last
breath?
And then they have like a deepbreath every now and then and
you think that's the last breathand then there's a bit more and
then sometimes that could go onfor hours or sometimes that
could go on for days.
(39:20):
Wow.
And then she did this big breathand eyes look up to the heavens,
if you believe in heaven, andthat's it.
SPEAKER_05 (39:33):
Wow.
Had you talked with her at allabout what she believed happened
after you died?
SPEAKER_03 (39:41):
Oh, Mum was like super Catholic, super Catholic.
We had pictures of the Pope inour house and, you know, we
believed that she was going togo to heaven.
SPEAKER_05 (39:53):
Did that make her less afraid?
SPEAKER_03 (39:55):
My faith.
Well, we never talked about itbecause she never was going to
die.
She believed God wouldn't leaveher.
daughters without a mum so sheput on such a brave you know
face to us that when they toldus she was going to die and then
(40:16):
we had we had my aunties orwhoever was making the decisions
then probably her parents mygrandparents made each four of
us go and spend some time withmum alone to talk to her even
though she was passed out andsleeping and not responsive.
(40:39):
And then after she died, then wealso had some time, each of us.
I don't remember what I said, ofcourse.
SPEAKER_05 (40:48):
Are you glad looking back that you had that time?
Did that seem important?
SPEAKER_03 (40:57):
Yes, it would have been good, but it would have
been better to do it if shecould have talked back to us,
you know, like...
That's probably one of thethings that we felt most ripped
off about was why they draggedher up, like, without giving her
the opportunity to talk to us.
(41:18):
You know, did they say to her,you're going to die and you need
to say goodbye to your girls?
Did that conversation happen?
I'm sorry.
I wasn't planning on crying.
SPEAKER_05 (41:33):
Thank you so much.
(42:02):
to have left instructionsregarding organ donation,
resuscitation, guardianship ofchildren or pets, assets, where
your important documents are,your passwords for digital
assets for your phone andcomputer, your death care
wishes.
Heartbreaking stories likeDiana's highlight what happens
(42:24):
when there's no plan in placeand no chance to prepare
emotionally or practically oreven just to say goodbye.
If you're here with me nowlistening to this podcast,
you're probably someone that'salready thought about or
prepared for this.
But death can be sooverwhelmingly hard and chaotic
(42:44):
for those left behind.
If we can find any way toalleviate a little of that
stress, it really is ourresponsibility to do so.
There are professional pre- andafter-loss service providers and
guides online, as well as manybooks that can help support and
get everything in order.
You can just visit your localbookshop or library or get your
(43:06):
Google on, ask around.
If you want the information,it's out there.
Just...
Remember that without a will,your beneficiaries will be
chosen for you by thegovernment.
If you have family, and theywon't include your romantic
partner if you're not married,your best friends, your
stepchildren, or any charitiesor causes that you may care
(43:29):
about.
So it really is worth your whileto make sure that everything is
organized for after you go.
Does it take a long time to getpeople's money to access it?
Yeah, it can do.
Because sometimes there's moneyput away in long-term
investments and that kind ofthing.
SPEAKER_03 (43:49):
Exactly, yeah.
And that's where the preparationwork before you die really comes
through because if you've donenone, then assets could be all
over the place in differentcompany names or overseas or
wherever, and if it's not alllisted out...
If your life insurance policyhasn't got any beneficiaries
(44:11):
nominated, you know, if there'ssuperannuations in five
different funds, then that'sfive different types of, you
know, life insurance policiesyou could have to figure out.
Everyone thinks after they die,a lot of people think,
especially young people thinkafter they die, it doesn't
matter, I don't have anydependents.
But do you want all of yourfamily to have to deal with all
(44:32):
your admin nightmare, you know,just for the sake of you sorting
your forms out yeah
SPEAKER_05 (44:39):
so your advice would be to get it set up when
SPEAKER_03 (44:44):
now if you've got if you've got even just if all
you've got is a super fund thenthat's you know that's an asset
that is going to have to getdealt with after you die if
you've got life insurance inyour super fund even more so you
know like I've seen like even mymum's will Wow.
(45:06):
Gee, it'd be great if
SPEAKER_05 (45:14):
we were all taught about this stuff like in high
school and you could enter theworld.
with a working knowledge of howadulthood worked.
SPEAKER_03 (45:27):
Exactly.
It
SPEAKER_05 (45:28):
seems that we're not taught so many of the important
things.
I'm sure it's great tounderstand incredibly complex
mathematical equations.
SPEAKER_03 (45:40):
If you're going to be a rocket scientist, yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (45:43):
But surely just a few basic things like...
SPEAKER_03 (45:46):
Yeah, life skills.
And
SPEAKER_05 (45:48):
how to write a will.
SPEAKER_03 (45:49):
Everyone needs a will.
And even if it's just, even ifyou can't, because you should
see a lawyer to do it, but evenif you're writing it on a piece
of paper and it's, you canGoogle how to make a legal will
and it has to be witnessed andit has to have the date on it
and whatever the basic thingsare, you know, and have
(46:10):
somewhere where, like I emailedmine, I took a photo of it and
emailed it to my sisters and myboss actually, so this is my
will in case I die on theoperating table tomorrow.
Because, you know, you neverknow.
Most people, when they die, theydon't know they're going to die.
And if you've got...
(46:30):
You know, it just makeseveryone's lives easier after
you've left.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (46:36):
Damn good advice.
I asked Zen if she thought thatpeople were getting more open
and prepared and generallybetter at dealing with death.
SPEAKER_01 (46:50):
Well...
I think in general that would bethe answer, but I think like
many things, when it's happeningto you, then it really sharpens
everything up.
They would be better to be ableto discuss all those things
before the need is there becausepeople are much calmer, much
(47:10):
more rational, much lessemotional.
And, you know, it's fascinating,death.
SPEAKER_05 (47:16):
It is.
I mean...
What greater thing are we goingto experience in our life,
really, than the moment ofunderstanding what happens?
I find it quite remarkable andpretty compelling that the
advice for our eventual exitfrom this life is exactly the
(47:37):
same from a holistic deathwalker and from a life insurance
risk specialist.
Think ahead, be prepared, getyour paperwork.
I also love that Zen'sobservation that those who
choose to live with a positiveand curious outlook will find
death easier and lessfrightening.
And this is the one thing I'vereally noted from all the
(47:58):
reading I've absorbed over thepast few years.
Live with wonder, die withwonder.
On that note, I'd like to sharea poem from the marvellous Mary
Oliver.
Well, it actually stands asseven of her poem, Sometimes.
Death waits for me.
I know it, around one corner oranother.
(48:22):
This doesn't amuse me, nor doesit frighten me.
After the rain, I went back intothe field of sunflowers.
It was cool and I was anythingbut drowsy.
I walked slowly and listened tothe crazy roots in the drenched
earth, laughing and growing.
(48:43):
There's words today from ZenithVirago, who you can find on her
website at zenithvirago.com ifyou would like to connect or
learn more.
We also heard from DianaPershchick.
Thank you so much, Di, forsharing your experience and
stories.
The original theme music forDeath Is Not The End was
(49:05):
written, performed and recordedby Peter Head, as well as his
version of As Long As I Can SeeThe Light.
Incidental music was thanks tothe Moby Gratis Music Library
and the MuseOpen Music Library.
Repertoire licensed by AbraAmcos.
(49:26):
Oh, and there was also a snippetof the song Songs Don't Care by
me and my dad, Peter Head, fromthe album The Apple Don't Fall
Far From the Tree.
Death Is Not The End waswritten, recorded and edited by
me, your host, Lo Carmen.
Death Is Not The End is a BlackTambourine Productions
(49:48):
production.
For more, visit the show notes.
Please do leave a review orrating or leave some nice words
somewhere, share it with afriend.
It helps it to get out there andit's much appreciated.
Stay curious friends.
See you on the other side.
Just remember that death is not the end.
SPEAKER_05 (00:13):
In her TEDx talk entitled Disrupting Death, The
Guide to Dying Well, ZenithFarago states...
Dying well on your own terms,prepared and supported, can be
your greatest subversive act,but it will absolutely be one of
the kindest gifts you can giveto the people that love you.
(00:35):
Zen is a highly regardededucator, speaker, celebrant and
holistic death walker from ByronBay, Australia, and she's been
working in this field for over35 years now.
She will talk to and advisepeople in need of support around
dying and guide those who wantto take care of their person
(00:55):
themselves after death,empowering them to do things
like washing and dressing thebody themselves, transporting
the body, building their owncoffin and other do-it-yourself
elements of death care.
Zen says, death is one of ourgreatest teachers.
It teaches about our courage andour capacity.
(01:18):
It teaches us a lot about lifeand living life to the fullest
with no regrets.
She also says, we are all deathwalkers, walking towards our own
deaths.
And she suggests we do it well.
SPEAKER_01 (01:35):
I've been working with death and dying with people
who are bereaved or who aredying.
I've been assisting people to doas much continual care as they
want.
So whether that involves caringfor people at home while they're
dying, caring for the body afterthe person's died, or if it's a
(01:56):
sudden death, then taking thebody home.
And sort of benefiting from thatin between period because it's a
once only moment and what you'redoing there is you're ending the
life and the dying and you arebeginning the process of letting
(02:16):
the body go which is whathappens usually at the ceremony
so i would say i'm a communityresource in our area from you
know just being very availableto people and also making death
very you know very accessibleand very normal in our community
(02:38):
how
SPEAKER_05 (02:38):
wonderful you sound like an incredibly important
Usually
SPEAKER_01 (02:43):
when people say what do you do, I say I'm having a
great life.
SPEAKER_05 (02:47):
What a good answer.
SPEAKER_01 (02:48):
It's certainly beyond anything I was expecting
to do with my life when I was ayoung person, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_05 (03:05):
Is that generally the kind of way it works, that
you're immediately directed intothe system of standard kind of
death care facilities?
SPEAKER_01 (03:15):
Yeah, well, it depends, because, for example,
if you're in an aged carefacility, you don't normally get
admitted into there until youhave completed the form, and on
that form there is a space for afuneral director's information
of your choice, so that if youdie, they know what funeral but
(03:36):
there are more and moreindependent funeral people
setting up now lots of them arenow being run by women so really
I would encourage anybody who'slistening to start to really
make those inquiries just likeyou do or how you used to
instead of checking out travelagents and package deals you
(03:59):
know check out funeral deals andstart to ring those people
options because I think A lot ofthe funeral industry in
Australia is owned by one bigcompany, stroke corporation.
And for some people, you know,they take issue with that.
They want to support a smallindependent.
(04:20):
But whatever it is, Whoever youuse, what you want is the
employees of that business to beattentive, to be offering you
services for you to understandwhat you need and what you don't
need.
But also, you know, what thecost of that is so that, for
(04:43):
example, people want to buildtheir own coffees.
or they want to bring one thatthey've already bought because
the family have decorated that.
They may want to take care ofbits and pieces of that ceremony
on their own.
They may want to have acelebrant of their choice.
They may want to do a range ofthings, but you can't do those
(05:05):
things if you don't know whatyour choices are.
SPEAKER_05 (05:07):
Yeah.
Can it be difficult dealing withhospital staff?
No, because
SPEAKER_01 (05:20):
the executor of the will has the legal right to the
body, so the hospital does notown that body.
So they may have a policy thatsays they only release the body
to a funeral director.
But the funeral director doesn'town the body either.
It's the executor or the next ofkin.
(05:43):
And so it's worth discussingthat with the hospital in
advance so that you can find outwhat they require from you in
order to be able to do that.
But we have been doing that herefor 25 years, especially when
that's a stillborn baby or asmall child.
(06:03):
Especially if that death hasoccurred suddenly.
So often sudden death, therewill need to be an autopsy to
find out the cause of death.
But it's absolutely possible totake the body home after that
autopsy.
But of course you must keep itcold so that it doesn't
deteriorate in any way.
(06:25):
But that time with the body,especially after sudden death,
when you wave goodbye tosomeone, you know, they set off
for the evening.
Expecting to see them fordinner.
That's right.
And they don't come home.
And in between, you've got theexperience of the phone call
that tells you they've died insome sudden way.
(06:46):
You've got...
going to the morgue to identifytheir body you've got to wait
until the body comes back fromthe autopsy and so a lot of
people would experience maybe aweek before they can actually
touch their person and so havingthe body at home being able to
(07:07):
be with it for a anywhere up tofive days, which is the New
South Wales law.
It'd be different, obviously, ineach state or wherever you are.
But in some countries, it'sabsolutely standard that the
body stays at home on a coldplate.
Which countries do you know?
(07:29):
In Holland.
In Holland, okay.
What we are doing in here, we'vehad a cold plate here for the
last maybe...
maybe 15 years, and now thereare at least another 20 or 30 in
Australia as more and morepeople have become holistic.
SPEAKER_05 (07:48):
That's more kind of returning to older practices,
isn't it?
I mean, it was quite a normalthing for a family to keep a
family member at home who haddied.
SPEAKER_01 (07:56):
That's right.
It was always the family caredfor the body.
And there's no law that says youhave to have that body from
death to disposal.
in three days but in Australiait's become a bit of a standard
thing that it's very quick butfor example in England it could
be up to it could begin at threeweeks And then some people wait
(08:22):
a month before that body isburied or cremated because the
volume of people, they have toget in a queue to have access to
the graveyard or thecrematorium.
And it can take much longer.
So people in England think amonth's pretty normal.
Whereas we think, oh God, that'sa long time.
(08:44):
Whereas for us, I think threedays is too fast.
Right.
unless it's what you want.
If you want it, great.
But especially with suddendeath, because you're still in
shock from the death itself andoften in shock from hearing how
the death occurred, getting thatphone call.
(09:05):
And so by the time you come outof shock, it's all done.
And your memory of that isaffected by...
being in a physical shock anemotional shock I can imagine
SPEAKER_05 (09:18):
you're completely incapable of making choices
SPEAKER_01 (09:23):
yeah but there are more and more people who have
especially so for example inthis area where our cultural
change has occurred and peopleare very familiar because I'm
always raving on or people aretalking to me and they're
spreading that information andI've spent the last 10 years
(09:44):
teaching as much as I can toanyone that comes to the
workshops about what their legalrights are and what they can do
so it was always my hope thatwithin each community there
would be someone who held thatbody of knowledge and that they
would be there to support theircommunity whatever that
community was and I think thatis happening and that is
(10:07):
happening and it has a sort ofit used to have a ripple out
effect but now it's got like awildfire effect
SPEAKER_05 (10:15):
Thank you.
Death cafes are described as asafe place where people, often
(10:37):
strangers, gather to eat cake,drink tea and discuss death,
with the only objective being toincrease awareness of death with
a view to helping people makethe most of their finite lives.
They're informal occasions,group-directed, with no agenda,
objectives or themes.
They're run on a non-profitbasis.
(10:59):
They just guarantee interestingconversations.
The only constant is based onthe concept that nothing marks
to community of the living likesharing food and drink by Swiss
sociologist and anthropologistBernard Kretas, who started the
original Café Mortels, the firstdeath café, in 2004.
(11:21):
They're not a grief support orcounselling session, they're
simply a discussion group.
And anyone who is keen to applyto host and facilitate an event
can check it out online and putin an application.
Well over 20,000 of these eventshave been held so far all over
the world.
There's also the End WorldProject based in LA that holds
(11:44):
virtual and in-person eventsoffering fresh perspectives with
a focus on end of life with acommitment to infusing wonder,
joy and hope into theseconversations while also
tackling the tough stuff.
There's the Sydney Festival ofDeath and Dying founded by
celebrant Victoria Spence whichfocuses on not just what death
(12:06):
can take from you but what deathcan give to you In the UK,
there's the Before I DieFestival.
There's the Kicking the BucketFestival.
There's many others.
There's a whole bunch of peoplein communities all around the
world that are interested todemystify and talk more about
death.
(12:27):
And if you're one of thosepeople that are interested to
learn and talk more, then youshould seek them out.
Do you find that after speakingwith you, people start to relax
more?
a little bit on their journeytowards death, if you're talking
with people that are dealingwith a terminal disease?
SPEAKER_01 (12:45):
Yeah, I generally find that.
But also the families.
I think once people know whattheir options are...
then they can consider those andthen make decisions that are
right for them.
And a lot of the fears orconcerns around death seem to be
about control, you know, thattheir pain will be out of
(13:07):
control.
They don't know what's going tohappen.
They don't know where they'regoing to be.
They want to desperately stay athome, but they might have to go
to hospital.
They don't know what will happento their children as they grow
up.
So the more people understandwhat their choices are, are then
the more empowered they feel themore things can calm down the
(13:29):
more they can do things or thefamily can put things into place
if the person is unable to dothat but really it's a bit like
stumbling around in the dark andthen someone bringing in a torch
and then gradually you find thelight switch and put the light
on and you know that feelingwhen you find the light switch
and suddenly you can seeeverything lit up.
(13:54):
So it's sort of a bit like that,whereas really people don't make
any inquiry until it's happeningto them.
SPEAKER_00 (14:05):
They don't care when it comes knocking They don't
care if it's in
SPEAKER_04 (14:15):
the way Of everything you're trying
SPEAKER_00 (14:18):
to do Do
SPEAKER_05 (14:37):
you find that there are many people that you are
talking with that arecomfortable and ready before you
meet up with them?
SPEAKER_01 (14:47):
Yeah, a lot of people are okay about dying.
Some people don't want to diebecause they're fearful or
because they just don't want toleave behind what they're
leaving behind.
But a lot of people who livewell often die well because it's
a continuation of their life.
(15:08):
And just like they've doneeverything else as fully as
possible, they often think,well, I'm just going to do this
the best I can.
And they try to be as...
I don't know quite what the wordis, but let's say as helpful and
as informative as they can sothat the people that are
(15:30):
accompanying them when they liveon after that person's died,
what they have is a full journeyand they know they couldn't do
any more.
The person was as gracious andas courageous and as capable as
they could be.
And that's different foreveryone.
There is no standard way to die.
(15:53):
There's no standard way to diewell.
It's different for each person.
People will generally die asthey live.
So if someone's been veryfearful all their life, if
they've been afraid of livingfully, then that would be the
most natural way for them todie.
And so you can't expect them tosuddenly have a big change of
(16:16):
personality.
Sometimes that does happen butit's rare so generally you have
to bring a respect to who theyare in in the fullness of who
they are who they were when theywere alive but sometimes it's
too difficult for people toactually they don't have the
(16:37):
capacity so for example ifyou've never discussed your
personal life with anyone againdying is a very intimate
personal experience and suddenlyit's a bit like you know people
who never discuss sex with theirparents there's suddenly you
can't expect your parents tosuddenly start talking to you
(16:58):
about death because it's thesame sort of intimate experience
it's personal so but what youcan do is not expect a
discussion or a conversation,but communicate to them what
those issues are for you.
For example, I know it's scary.
(17:20):
I know it's difficult for you.
So acknowledge how they might befeeling, whatever that is.
And then say, but can I justtell you what I need?
It would be great for me if youcould let me know what you want
so that we can honor what youwant and give you what you want
and generally the easiest in tostart a conversation like that
(17:45):
is about music for the funeralbut if you've got someone who's
terrified of dying then that'snot going to be the right
approach because it's going tobe confronting but my experience
is If you can find the key toopen that up and to change the
(18:05):
word fear to concern.
Yes, right.
So, you know, what is it?
What part of dying are youconcerned about?
Yeah, that's really nice.
Because if you unpack it, thensometimes it's about they're sad
that they're not going to seetheir grandchildren grow up.
(18:25):
Or they're...
concerned that they might be inpain or they're concerned that
they might be a burden for theother family members or they're
concerned that they're going tolose control of their bladder or
their bowels or they're notgoing to be able to see or
something like that.
Or it can be somethingcompletely random that you could
(18:48):
never even imagine.
Like yesterday, I had aconversation.
I was doing a photo shoot andthe photographer and I were
speaking And she said, oh, youknow, I'm really fearful about
dying because of the dark.
I'm really scared of the dark.
And I said, yeah, but you knowthat if you read any reports or
(19:13):
the people who have nearly diedtell, it's always about the
light.
They always say there was abright light.
I was heading for the light.
You know, I went into the light.
I've actually never heardanybody say in those near-death
experiences, not my ownexperience, oh, it was pitch
(19:35):
black, it was really scary, itwas dark.
They all involve light.
And I said, so I don't knowbecause it's not my own
experience, but I wouldcertainly look at some of those
if you want because...
You know, there's nothing aboutdark.
And she said, oh, my God.
She said, I feel better already.
(19:55):
Right.
You know, because that's true.
She said, I've heard people saythat.
And she said, wow, that'samazing.
So sometimes it's just simple,rational conversations.
But if you hold something, youknow, it contracts.
And the more you discuss it...
Usually, it often expands andsometimes it can dissolve.
SPEAKER_05 (20:30):
Did you just kind of fall into it through
circumstance and realize youwere good at helping people with
dealing
SPEAKER_01 (20:37):
with death?
I did.
I did.
So like many people, a closefriend of mine died suddenly and
I went with her husband toidentify her body with him.
And as we were walking out, Isaid to him, you know, we can do
this ourselves.
We don't need to give her to astranger.
SPEAKER_05 (20:56):
How did you know that you could do it yourself?
You just knew the laws or hadyou read
SPEAKER_01 (21:01):
about it?
I worked in law and I just knewthat there would be a way.
And I said, do you want me totry and work that out?
and so on the way home from thehospital I called into a funeral
director, a small one inBangalore, for anyone who is
listening who knows this area,and I said, my best friend's
just died, you know, we want todo it ourselves.
(21:23):
Can you tell me what I need toknow?
And he said yes, which is very,very unusual.
SPEAKER_05 (21:29):
Yes, I'm sure there would be a lot of resistance
SPEAKER_01 (21:32):
often.
He was very helpful.
Not only did he tell me what Ineeded to know, he provided me
with all the paperwork and astretcher for her body and And
he also made this incredibleoffer, which was, you know, if
you want, I'll come and be insupport if you run into trouble,
but I won't interfere.
And I was young, I was in my30s, I was feisty, and I was
(21:54):
like, yeah, thanks very much.
So he came, but I didn't needany assistance.
I managed to get where we neededto go.
We've accomplished that.
We cremated her.
And in between, I wentimmediately almost to India.
And when I came back, I thought,I must go and thank that guy
because without him, I couldnever have done that.
(22:17):
And when I got back, the funeraldirectors had gone.
Really?
really and so I never got tothank him but what it what it
gave me was it gave me obviouslythis incredible ability but it
also gave me a way of beingwhich because he was so generous
to me and if he hadn't been thatgenerous I could never have done
(22:40):
that and so It's made me alwaysbe extremely generous.
So, you know, when people likeyou ring and say, you know, can
you do this or can we have someof your time?
I just say yes, because younever know what that person's
going to do with that or how asmall thing can grow.
It can, you know, it can be growexponentially.
SPEAKER_05 (23:03):
Saying yes and being kind goes a long way.
and people in communication with
SPEAKER_01 (23:18):
people who might have died.
If I am going to visit someonewho's dying and they only have
enough energy for a smallconversation, then I think the
most important question that Iask is, what do you think will
happen when you die?
And then you listen to whatthey're saying and often they
(23:39):
will say, oh, I'm going to meetso-and-so, people who they loved
who have died before.
And again, we just had thatrecently, probably in the last
year and a half, where someone,an older woman who was not sick
but also wanted to die becauseshe was becoming very frail and
(24:02):
she didn't want to deteriorateanymore.
So she just decided to stopeating and drinking and she
spoke with her doctor.
She was perfectly sound mind andshe stayed at home with her son
and his family and she died andthe children the young children
were there and I asked her thatquestion about maybe five days
(24:24):
before she died and she saidthat her brother and her parents
would be there for her and whenshe did die in the arms of her
son he said that when she diddie all he could think of was
how great it was that she wasgoing to be reunited with her
(24:47):
family because when she answeredmy question she was radiant at
the thought of it and so he saidhe was crying obviously and he
was sad but he was obviously soincredibly taken by how
courageous and capable she wasin her dying to so she didn't
(25:08):
need to go to Switzerland allshe had to do was stop eating
and drinking and that is also avery useful piece of information
because it's not like us whenwe're fit and healthy reduce you
know fasting it will take usmuch longer but when the body is
already frail it's alreadyclosing down and someone wants
(25:30):
to do that it doesn't take muchit usually takes about 10 days
10 to 15 days But it's a verygentle way to go.
And the children, thegrandchildren were coming in.
They were saying goodbye to her.
And then gradually she sort ofjust slept a lot.
Right.
And then had a littleconversation each night with her
(25:52):
son.
And as I say, I see that family.
I see them often.
And, you know, whenever we talkabout his mom, we both go to
this place of incredible,incredible joy and respect and
appreciation that she was soclear about what she wanted and
(26:13):
so courageous and that foreveryone it was the very best
experience it could be.
It's beautiful.
SPEAKER_05 (26:21):
Yeah, it's a really beautiful story.
It's wonderful.
SPEAKER_01 (26:30):
I speak to a lot of people that I never meet.
because it's often really supersupportive to have a really
challenging conversation on thetelephone because the person at
the other end is in the comfortof their own home they've
usually got themselvescomfortable they don't do it on
the hop because it's a bigconversation to have so they're
(26:53):
in a comfy chair or they'resitting at their desk or their
kitchen table they've got a padand a pen the system so I often
just say to people let's justchat on the phone we don't need
need to meet because I can hearwhat they're saying but I can
also hear at another level ofwhat's underneath that generally
and if I'm not having to look atthem then I'm not like we all do
(27:17):
judging someone on theirphysical appearance or you know
assumptions we might make aboutthat person just on a visual so
when because we're closing downour visual sense we are turning
up our oral sense so I'm reallylistening to what they're saying
But I'm also listening to whatthey're not saying.
(27:41):
And over the years, I've justfound that extremely helpful for
them, also for me, but mostlyfor
SPEAKER_05 (27:48):
them.
Yeah, that's really nice.
You must have developedincredible sensitivities to
what's not been said.
I
SPEAKER_01 (27:56):
have, yeah.
Of
SPEAKER_05 (27:57):
course.
SPEAKER_01 (27:59):
And it's a practice.
The more you practice something,the better at it you get.
I wouldn't say, and many of myold friends, I can tell you,
would not say I was always asensitive person.
SPEAKER_05 (28:17):
I asked Zen what she would advise as the best thing
that we could be doing toprepare while we're still alive
and in good health.
for our eventual deaths.
SPEAKER_01 (28:26):
The paperwork for people is the advanced health
care plan, a will, a power ofattorney.
These are all documents thatanyone over 18 should have.
SPEAKER_05 (28:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:41):
Especially a will, because if you die without a
will, it's just a big hassle forthe people.
A
SPEAKER_05 (28:46):
nightmare for the
SPEAKER_01 (28:47):
family.
You're left behind.
One piece of paper, it can take10 minutes.
You'll buy a kit from thenewsagent.
If you don't have a complicatedblended family or anything like
that, or stacks of money, thenyou're better to fill in a form
from the newsagent and havesomething rather than nothing,
(29:08):
really.
You can even
SPEAKER_05 (29:09):
download it from the internet.
Probably.
You can, because that's the kindof will I have, although I was
just actually vaguing out,thinking, where did I put that
in my computer?
Like, I made it, but I'm notquite sure where it is, so I'd
better rectify that myself.
Well, you may need to print itout and sign it.
(29:31):
I do.
UNKNOWN (29:34):
Yeah, paperwork.
SPEAKER_05 (29:36):
Paperwork.
Statistics suggest that around40% of Australians will die
without having written theirwill, and in America this figure
goes up to more like 70%.
This is referred to as dyinginterstate.
It's really difficult andoverwhelming for those left
(29:57):
behind, who will need to getletters of administration from
the Supreme Court or similar,There are laws as to how estates
must be distributed that won'ttake into account any personal
wishes.
And if the person that dieddoesn't have a partner or
children, their assets may go tothe state, which nobody wants to
happen.
(30:17):
Anything is better than nothing.
Even if you think you havenothing much of value so it's
not important, it is definitelyimportant.
I've heard so many terriblestories about families being
torn apart by disputes and it'sreally just the least we can do
to lessen the pain of our futuredeaths for those who love us.
(30:40):
It's actually really easy tomake a basic legally reviewed
will online for under$200 oreven just with one of those kits
that you can buy at the postoffice for about$20.
Do-it-yourself rules are legal,but they do often lead to
disputes and challenges due toambiguous wording.
(31:01):
And with the average cost ofresolving disputes over
do-it-yourself rules beingaround$200,000, they're not
really advised.
Getting your estate planning inorder with living wills,
advanced healthcare plans orhealthcare directives is also
incredibly important.
And these can be created at thesame time as your will or
(31:24):
separately.
NaturalDeathCareCenter.org has afree form you can download with
really useful facts forpreparing for death and dying.
And legally reviewed online willproviders such as SafeWill.com
in Australia, FreeWill.com inthe US, FareWill.com in the UK
(31:48):
walk you through the wholeplanning process.
Life insurance is also wellworth looking into, even though
it can be a complex andtime-consuming process.
Just check it out.
When I first embarked on thisproject, I had no assets apart
from my songs, a few vintagedresses and a couple of
(32:09):
broken-down guitars, and I didnot understand why it was
important to think about any ofthis stuff.
To write a will?
But now that I know, I havebecome that annoying person that
constantly asks friends andfamily if they have written
theirs, and I send links forspecial will writing offers,
etc., Most importantly, I thinkjust breaking through the
(32:32):
discomfort of discussing ourfuture deaths and letting each
other know what we hope for orwould prefer in the event of our
deaths or in the event of beingincapacitated and unable to make
decisions for ourselves is theleast that we can do.
My friend Diana works as a riskspecialist in insurance and I
(32:53):
asked her if she could help meget a grip on a bunch of things
I knew absolutely nothing aboutwills, insurance and
superannuation.
And as well as going deep onthis and all kinds of other
tangents that we'll hear moreabout down the track, she also
shared this really intimatestory that I thought was really
(33:14):
meaningful.
So you have a personal story,don't you, about what happened
when your mum died when you wereyoung?
SPEAKER_03 (33:24):
Yeah, so I think that may be part of the reason
why I'm got into life insurancenow is because she didn't have
life insurance she died wellwhat we would call unexpectedly
when I was 15 I've got threesisters so there was four of us
(33:44):
and when she died we didn't knowshe was going to die even though
she was sick with cancer for acouple of years it was every
time she went into hospital itwas always I'm coming out You
know, I'm not going to die fromthis cancer.
It's, you know, I'm going tobeat it.
And, you know, we believed herbecause you believe what your
(34:05):
mum tells you.
And her will...
I mean, we were kids, so wedidn't see it until quite a...
I don't remember exactly thetimelines because
SPEAKER_05 (34:17):
obviously...
SPEAKER_03 (34:19):
How old were you, darling?
I was 15.
And...
Had your mum
SPEAKER_05 (34:28):
ever talked to you about a will or what might
SPEAKER_03 (34:32):
happen after she died?
No, because there was four ofus, it was four kids is a lot
for one person to take on.
Had there been life insurance,someone probably could have
taken all four of us and we didhave...
like some of mum's, one of mum'sbest friends in particular who
(34:56):
wanted to take all four of us,but she just couldn't afford to.
So we got split up and mum,yeah, mum never, I don't
remember mum ever talking to usabout what would happen to us if
she died, except that she didn'twant my dad to get us.
And cause he was an abusivealcoholic who we left when I was
(35:17):
little.
So she did have a will, But Ithink it was mostly to make sure
that he wasn't going to get anycustody of us.
And I don't think people talkedabout life insurance to women.
Money conversations, men havethem all the time, but women
don't.
So someone said to my mum, youknow, when she became a single
(35:40):
mother, buy this small lifeinsurance policy.
Your superannuation can pay forit so that if you die, then...
your girls will be okay, shewould have done it for sure.
She didn't know she was going todie.
We didn't even really get to saygoodbye properly because she was
drugged up.
When we were in hospital, one ofthe many times we were in
(36:02):
hospital, this one particulartime they were like, okay, we're
just going to take your mum to ahospice.
And I'm like, I'm 15, I'm like,what's a hospice?
And they said, oh, it's whereshe can just be more
comfortable.
I'm like, oh, okay, that soundsgreat.
You know, even though she was ina nice hospital, well, nice
enough, you know, this otherplace that is more comfortable
(36:23):
sounds great.
Let's go there.
And we got there, and she wasdoped up on morphine at this
stage to make her morecomfortable, which, again, it
was like, I didn't know thatthat's what they give you, you
know, when things are really,really, really bad.
And...
(36:43):
Then they just took all four ofus into a room and said, you
know your mum's going to die,right?
(37:04):
And we were just like, no.
SPEAKER_02 (37:06):
Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_03 (37:09):
And then...
We had to say goodbye, and then,like, I don't know, what it felt
like the next day.
I think maybe she was in therefor a few days, but, you know,
time's all funny, and that wasit.
And she didn't wake up.
SPEAKER_05 (37:23):
Oh, Di, I'm so sorry.
That's so fast and awful.
I can't imagine what that's likefor daughters.
SPEAKER_03 (37:36):
Well, my little sister was nine, you know, so...
I don't think...
Did you have an
SPEAKER_05 (37:42):
adult with you?
Yeah, I don't really remember.
SPEAKER_03 (37:45):
Yeah, my aunties and my grandparents, you know,
everyone was there.
Yeah, we went by ourselves.
But no one was
SPEAKER_05 (37:51):
really very clear about what was actually
happening?
Or was everyone taken bysurprise?
SPEAKER_03 (37:58):
Well, by the time she got to the hospice, and this
nurse took us in this room andtold us this, then...
Everyone came, you know, I mean,or everyone she knew who, well,
who wanted to say goodbye, cameand said goodbye.
And I think I remember we evenslept there in this big waiting
(38:23):
room.
Everyone just camped over on thefloor,
SPEAKER_05 (38:25):
waiting.
Were you there when she died?
Mm-hmm.
Do you remember what that waslike?
SPEAKER_03 (38:38):
Yeah, I remember.
It was pretty surreal.
We were all just sitting aroundher bed and when someone...
I've seen mum die and I watchedmy grandfather die a couple of
years after that and I haven'tseen anyone else die.
But there were similaritiesbetween the way that they
(38:59):
breathe in the last few hourssort of thing and The breathing
changes and then you're like,oh, is this going to be the last
breath?
And then they have like a deepbreath every now and then and
you think that's the last breathand then there's a bit more and
then sometimes that could go onfor hours or sometimes that
could go on for days.
(39:20):
Wow.
And then she did this big breathand eyes look up to the heavens,
if you believe in heaven, andthat's it.
SPEAKER_05 (39:33):
Wow.
Had you talked with her at allabout what she believed happened
after you died?
SPEAKER_03 (39:41):
Oh, Mum was like super Catholic, super Catholic.
We had pictures of the Pope inour house and, you know, we
believed that she was going togo to heaven.
SPEAKER_05 (39:53):
Did that make her less afraid?
SPEAKER_03 (39:55):
My faith.
Well, we never talked about itbecause she never was going to
die.
She believed God wouldn't leaveher.
daughters without a mum so sheput on such a brave you know
face to us that when they toldus she was going to die and then
(40:16):
we had we had my aunties orwhoever was making the decisions
then probably her parents mygrandparents made each four of
us go and spend some time withmum alone to talk to her even
though she was passed out andsleeping and not responsive.
(40:39):
And then after she died, then wealso had some time, each of us.
I don't remember what I said, ofcourse.
SPEAKER_05 (40:48):
Are you glad looking back that you had that time?
Did that seem important?
SPEAKER_03 (40:57):
Yes, it would have been good, but it would have
been better to do it if shecould have talked back to us,
you know, like...
That's probably one of thethings that we felt most ripped
off about was why they draggedher up, like, without giving her
the opportunity to talk to us.
(41:18):
You know, did they say to her,you're going to die and you need
to say goodbye to your girls?
Did that conversation happen?
I'm sorry.
I wasn't planning on crying.
SPEAKER_05 (41:33):
Thank you so much.
(42:02):
to have left instructionsregarding organ donation,
resuscitation, guardianship ofchildren or pets, assets, where
your important documents are,your passwords for digital
assets for your phone andcomputer, your death care
wishes.
Heartbreaking stories likeDiana's highlight what happens
(42:24):
when there's no plan in placeand no chance to prepare
emotionally or practically oreven just to say goodbye.
If you're here with me nowlistening to this podcast,
you're probably someone that'salready thought about or
prepared for this.
But death can be sooverwhelmingly hard and chaotic
(42:44):
for those left behind.
If we can find any way toalleviate a little of that
stress, it really is ourresponsibility to do so.
There are professional pre- andafter-loss service providers and
guides online, as well as manybooks that can help support and
get everything in order.
You can just visit your localbookshop or library or get your
(43:06):
Google on, ask around.
If you want the information,it's out there.
Just...
Remember that without a will,your beneficiaries will be
chosen for you by thegovernment.
If you have family, and theywon't include your romantic
partner if you're not married,your best friends, your
stepchildren, or any charitiesor causes that you may care
(43:29):
about.
So it really is worth your whileto make sure that everything is
organized for after you go.
Does it take a long time to getpeople's money to access it?
Yeah, it can do.
Because sometimes there's moneyput away in long-term
investments and that kind ofthing.
SPEAKER_03 (43:49):
Exactly, yeah.
And that's where the preparationwork before you die really comes
through because if you've donenone, then assets could be all
over the place in differentcompany names or overseas or
wherever, and if it's not alllisted out...
If your life insurance policyhasn't got any beneficiaries
(44:11):
nominated, you know, if there'ssuperannuations in five
different funds, then that'sfive different types of, you
know, life insurance policiesyou could have to figure out.
Everyone thinks after they die,a lot of people think,
especially young people thinkafter they die, it doesn't
matter, I don't have anydependents.
But do you want all of yourfamily to have to deal with all
(44:32):
your admin nightmare, you know,just for the sake of you sorting
your forms out yeah
SPEAKER_05 (44:39):
so your advice would be to get it set up when
SPEAKER_03 (44:44):
now if you've got if you've got even just if all
you've got is a super fund thenthat's you know that's an asset
that is going to have to getdealt with after you die if
you've got life insurance inyour super fund even more so you
know like I've seen like even mymum's will Wow.
(45:06):
Gee, it'd be great if
SPEAKER_05 (45:14):
we were all taught about this stuff like in high
school and you could enter theworld.
with a working knowledge of howadulthood worked.
SPEAKER_03 (45:27):
Exactly.
It
SPEAKER_05 (45:28):
seems that we're not taught so many of the important
things.
I'm sure it's great tounderstand incredibly complex
mathematical equations.
SPEAKER_03 (45:40):
If you're going to be a rocket scientist, yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (45:43):
But surely just a few basic things like...
SPEAKER_03 (45:46):
Yeah, life skills.
And
SPEAKER_05 (45:48):
how to write a will.
SPEAKER_03 (45:49):
Everyone needs a will.
And even if it's just, even ifyou can't, because you should
see a lawyer to do it, but evenif you're writing it on a piece
of paper and it's, you canGoogle how to make a legal will
and it has to be witnessed andit has to have the date on it
and whatever the basic thingsare, you know, and have
(46:10):
somewhere where, like I emailedmine, I took a photo of it and
emailed it to my sisters and myboss actually, so this is my
will in case I die on theoperating table tomorrow.
Because, you know, you neverknow.
Most people, when they die, theydon't know they're going to die.
And if you've got...
(46:30):
You know, it just makeseveryone's lives easier after
you've left.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (46:36):
Damn good advice.
I asked Zen if she thought thatpeople were getting more open
and prepared and generallybetter at dealing with death.
SPEAKER_01 (46:50):
Well...
I think in general that would bethe answer, but I think like
many things, when it's happeningto you, then it really sharpens
everything up.
They would be better to be ableto discuss all those things
before the need is there becausepeople are much calmer, much
(47:10):
more rational, much lessemotional.
And, you know, it's fascinating,death.
SPEAKER_05 (47:16):
It is.
I mean...
What greater thing are we goingto experience in our life,
really, than the moment ofunderstanding what happens?
I find it quite remarkable andpretty compelling that the
advice for our eventual exitfrom this life is exactly the
(47:37):
same from a holistic deathwalker and from a life insurance
risk specialist.
Think ahead, be prepared, getyour paperwork.
I also love that Zen'sobservation that those who
choose to live with a positiveand curious outlook will find
death easier and lessfrightening.
And this is the one thing I'vereally noted from all the
(47:58):
reading I've absorbed over thepast few years.
Live with wonder, die withwonder.
On that note, I'd like to sharea poem from the marvellous Mary
Oliver.
Well, it actually stands asseven of her poem, Sometimes.
Death waits for me.
I know it, around one corner oranother.
(48:22):
This doesn't amuse me, nor doesit frighten me.
After the rain, I went back intothe field of sunflowers.
It was cool and I was anythingbut drowsy.
I walked slowly and listened tothe crazy roots in the drenched
earth, laughing and growing.
(48:43):
There's words today from ZenithVirago, who you can find on her
website at zenithvirago.com ifyou would like to connect or
learn more.
We also heard from DianaPershchick.
Thank you so much, Di, forsharing your experience and
stories.
The original theme music forDeath Is Not The End was
(49:05):
written, performed and recordedby Peter Head, as well as his
version of As Long As I Can SeeThe Light.
Incidental music was thanks tothe Moby Gratis Music Library
and the MuseOpen Music Library.
Repertoire licensed by AbraAmcos.
(49:26):
Oh, and there was also a snippetof the song Songs Don't Care by
me and my dad, Peter Head, fromthe album The Apple Don't Fall
Far From the Tree.
Death Is Not The End waswritten, recorded and edited by
me, your host, Lo Carmen.
Death Is Not The End is a BlackTambourine Productions
(49:48):
production.
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