July 5, 2025 • 56 mins
Lo Carmen talks with photojournalist Klaus Bo, who has been exploring death rituals around the world with his camera for over ten years, immersing himself in the cultures for months at a time, and believes we can learn a lot about life and death from witnessing them.
See Klaus’s incredible photographs at www.deadandaliveproject.com. You can also follow him on Instagram and Substack.
We also hear from Romani singer Sarah Bedak and Jane Skinner about their personal experiences in Serbia and Varanasi.
Death Is Not The End is created, written, edited and hosted by Lo Carmen.
Death Is Not The End theme music written, recorded & performed by Peter Head, as well as incidental music. Death Is Not The End sting written by Bob Dylan, recorded and performed by Peter Head.
Other music on this episode:
'The Resurrection Game' by Emma Swift, courtesy of Tiny Ghost Records - more here.
'Shoo Tu More' by Lolo Lovina, courtesy Lolo Lovina - more here
'Everyone You Ever Knew (Is Coming Back To Haunt You)' by Lo Carmen - more here
More incidental music thanks to the Descript & MusOpen music libraries.
'Kora Dream' by Sillaba, 'Kali Dholi' by Pawan Krishna, courtesy of Epidemic Sound.
Death Is Not The Art artwork thanks to Craig Waddell - see more here.
©Black Tambourine Productions 2025 ...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:07):
In our western culture, thephysical process of dying tends
to take place privately behindclosed doors, in hospitals,
hospice and bedrooms, under theguidance of experienced
(00:30):
professionals.
Touching our dead, dressing orpreparing them or even spending
time with them in our homesafter their death is uncommon.
Our grieving also tends to bemore private.
with those that have lost theirpeople trying their best to
keep it together at least untilsome kind of service has been
(00:51):
had and the body laid to restwhen they can fall apart behind
closed doors.
We're kind of expected to cometo terms with the death of the
person we loved in a reasonablytimely manner but in many other
cultures the rituals arounddeath and dying look very
different.
Today we're going to talk withKlaus Bo, a highly regarded
(01:15):
freelance photojournalist basedin Copenhagen, Denmark, who was
inspired to begin his life'swork, The Dead and Alive
Project, in 2010, travelling tomany countries around the world,
immersing himself for extendedperiods of time wherever he goes
to photograph rituals arounddeath and dying.
(01:37):
The Dead and Alive Project isintended to encourage
conversations about death, toexamine how we think about and
relate to death, and to allowpeople to familiarize themselves
in more depth.
Klaus Bo (01:50):
My first trip was to Haiti, where I've been a few
times, and I was interested instudying people's customs around
death, how we relate to deatharound the world, How funeral
ceremonies, how they look, howpeople practice these last
farewells around the world.
If there's anywhere in theworld where death is really up
(02:19):
front, it would be Haiti.
I've been there like four timesbefore, working with different
NGOs.
before the earthquake and afterthe earthquake in Haiti, I went
there.
And then I decided when Iwanted to start my project that
it could be a good place to seeif I could handle myself getting
very close to death, looking atdead people, and if I could
(02:43):
photograph it in a way so otherpeople could handle seeing it
and seeing what I was doing andunderstand the reason why I was
doing what I was doing.
Lo Carmen (02:54):
Was it very confronting for you when you
first went to Haiti?
Klaus Bo (02:58):
Haiti is a very special place.
And it was, well, you can sayalmost, I would say 90% of all
people I have photographed, alldead people I photographed, they
died a natural death.
So it's not confronting in thesame way as when you photograph
death in a place where it's notsupposed to be, if you
(03:18):
understand what I mean.
Lo Carmen (03:20):
What are their rituals in Haiti?
What do they do?
Klaus Bo (03:23):
Oh, they have some very special rituals.
It's the voodoo rituals.
Lo Carmen (03:27):
Oh, can you tell us?
Klaus Bo (03:28):
u Yeah.
They have a special ritualcalled a vey, which is similar
to a wake, where they sing andthey dance.
The dead person is representedby a calabash.
It's a dried fruit.
And they...
drum on that one it's put inwater with the different
substances like perfume herbsand everything and then the call
(03:52):
for the spirits by singing forlike at least four hours yeah
and then in the end when theywhen they have called for the
voodoo spirits, the luas it'scalled.
In the end, the spirit of thedead will be caught by this
thing and it will go into thewater and it will be caught in
the calabash, which is likeupside down in the water.
(04:13):
And then it will bring itoutside and set it free again.
Then I went to another ritual,which is called a desunin.
When you get how do you say,inaugurated in the voodoo
church, so I don't know exactlyhow to say it, but then there's
a special ritual where you arechosen by one of the voodoo
spirits, and this spirit will beyour guardian angel for the
(04:33):
rest of your life.
But it's very important whenyou die that you take out this
spirit from the dead body again,because otherwise it can become
a ghost and it will haunt you.
the living.
Lo Carmen (04:41):
How interesting.
Klaus Bo (04:43):
That was really interesting.
Lo (04:45):
So if it's treated properly it becomes like a guardian
spirit and if it's not releasedfrom the body it becomes a
ghost, haunted and haunting.
Klaus Bo (04:52):
Yes.
And that's also why you saythat after the earthquake in
Haiti in 2010 Port-au-Prince wasa haunted city because all
these people had to be buried inmass graves and there was no
time to perform the rightrituals.
Unknown (05:09):
Music
Lo Carmen (05:22):
The roots of voodooism have been practiced in
Africa since the beginning ofhuman civilization, predating
any known religion in the worldtoday.
In Haitian voodoo, they saydeath is the wind because death
is seen as a transformation ortransition, a beginning rather
than an end.
Boundaries between life anddeath are fluid, and mourning,
(05:47):
crying and wailing is part of asacred journey that connects the
living and the dead.
In the Haitian voodootradition, it is believed that
the dead either reincarnate byslipping into rivers and streams
and remaining there underwaterfor a year and a day before the
souls emerge from the water,lured by rituals and songs, and
(06:09):
their spirits are reborn, orthey move into the realm of the
ancestors, where they remain abeloved and integral part of the
community, offering guidance,blessings and protection.
If things go awry, they canalso come back as ghosts or as
zombie zombies, so the ritualsaround death are very important.
(06:30):
To voodoo, family gods arevenerated and fed and cherished
for all that they have given andcontinue to give to their
communities, especially life,wisdom and protection.
In return, they're revered andcared for, and Manjimu, or a day
of ritual feeding of the dead,takes place annually, where the
(06:52):
Te Voodoo are thanked for theirblessings, fed, given rum,
honoured with parties full ofdancing and praise songs.
Fete Gede or Festival or Feastof the Dead is one of the most
important celebrations in thevoodoo religious calendar.
It's like a voodoo equivalentof the Mexican Day of the Dead
(07:13):
or Mardi Gras or Halloween allwrapped up in one.
Everyone dresses in black,white and purple.
They walk, drum, sing and dancein processions to the
graveyards to honour the Gedespirits.
They feed their ancestral deadwith gifts and offerings of
spicy foods, flowers, coffee,one with sugar, one without,
(07:36):
homemade beeswax candles and towarm the Gede's bones, bottles
of rum stuffed with chillipeppers.
Gede is the family or nation ofspirits of the dead in Haitian
voodoo.
I found on a voodoo tumblr bysomeone called Rock of Eye a
(08:04):
description that I thought wasquite fantastic. It said, She
says, When asked why he wearsbroken sunglasses, he says he
(08:46):
has one eye on his food and oneeye to see the world or one eye
for pleasure.
Nothing misses his gaze.
He stands at the crossroads oflife and death.
All people have access to Gedebecause all people will die and
all people have been touched bydeath.
He is the Imelda Marcos ofhats.
He loves hats.
(09:06):
If he can put it on his head,he wants to wear it.
Bowler cap, fedora, cowboy hat,witch's hat, party hat,
whatever.
If it's a hat, a Gede will wearit.
I have four hats for Gede onhis chair and he has been very
clear that this is not enough.
He likes imagery of penises andvulvas, so he often gets given
penis vulva candles, lifelikedildos, porn magazines, condoms
(09:30):
and other associated novelties.
He sees us all in our humanitywithout judgement.
Voodoo is a non-hierarchical,living and evolving religion
that is not comparable to anyWestern concepts.
It's believed that over 60million people practice voodoo
worldwide, in West Africa,Brazil, the USA and the
(09:53):
Caribbean, and especially onHeishi, where voodoo was
proclaimed the state religion in2003, and where it is popularly
stated that the people are 80%Catholics and 110% voodooists.
I've seen some of your amazingphotographs from Indonesia.
(10:13):
Oh, yes.
That's kind of similar, isn'tit, in terms of long rituals?
Klaus Bo (10:18):
Oh, yes, long-lasting rituals.
I would say the Haitian one isnot necessarily that long
compared to...
A three-day ritual in themountains in Nepal or the
funeral rituals, the ordinaryfuneral rituals in Indonesia,
they last for like three, fourdays, maybe even seven days.
Lo Carmen (10:35):
Wow.
Klaus Bo (10:36):
Yeah, it's a very costly affair to not to offend
anyone, but I think there's alittle show-off in status as
well sometimes.
But then you have probably seensome of the other rituals where
they take out the dead people,they clean them up and they have
photos taken with them.
Lo Carmen (10:50):
Is it on the anniversary of the person?
Klaus Bo (10:56):
Yeah, it's like the Day of the Dead, actually.
It's not the Day of the Dead,but they do the same stuff as
you do during Day of the Dead.
They clean the graves, theymake them very nice.
prepare everything, and thenthey take out the dead people.
And they do it after harvest.
So it's like a
Lo Carmen (11:10):
grateful celebration?
Klaus Bo (11:12):
Yeah, you can say so.
And they have to do it beforethey start blowing the paddy
fields again and make them readyfor new rice.
Wow.
Do they change
Lo Carmen (11:21):
their clothes and give them cigarettes?
Klaus Bo (11:23):
Yeah, they do.
They take them out, they cleanthem, and they clean the bodies.
There's some bugs and there'ssome dust and stuff, and they
clean it out, and then they puton new clothes.
on the family members, theancestors, and then they are
actually having pictures takenwith them.
They give them cigarettes, theylight up the cigarettes, and
they're actually having a bigcelebration of their ancestors.
(11:45):
Of course, it can be sorrowful,but you're basically not
allowed to cry during theritual.
But of course, some people,they cry if it's a close
relative.
But it's also a bigcelebration.
And people, they come if theylive in Malaysia or wherever
they live.
They actually come for thisoccasion.
Lo Carmen (12:04):
Oh, that's so special.
I've
Unknown (12:07):
come to, to excavate your bones.
So different isn't it to
Lo Carmen (12:30):
what we do
Klaus Bo (12:36):
Oh, yes.
Lo Carmen (12:37):
In our Western countries where it's all very
quiet and respectful and oncesomebody is buried, that's kind
of it.
Klaus Bo (12:47):
Yeah, it's a very big contrast because in our
societies it's two and a halfhours.
I mean, you have half an hourin church and then you have two
hours with coffee and cake.
That's right.
And then everybody goes home tothemselves.
They go alone.
Lo Carmen (13:01):
And you're not even really expected to grieve, are
you?
Klaus Bo (13:04):
No, no.
You're
Lo Carmen (13:04):
meant to grieve very privately and even the wake
after funerals I find inAustralia that's the only place
I've been to funerals it's likeeverybody holds in their sadness
they don't seem to cry they'reall very polite and having
conversations that often don'teven really involve the dead
(13:27):
person, and it's not until theygo
Klaus Bo (13:28):
home that
Lo Carmen (13:30):
it all comes out.
Klaus Bo (13:32):
And if you cry, I've always wondered if someone is
crying, people in the movies andstuff like that, people, they
say, oh, don't cry.
Lo Carmen (13:39):
It's got to be good for you to cry, doesn't
Klaus Bo (13:42):
it?
It's so weird.
It
Lo Carmen (13:42):
makes sense to cry.
Yes,
Klaus Bo (13:44):
exactly.
It's a big relief.
I mean,
Lo Carmen (13:46):
yeah.
It's the natural thing thatyour body wants to do when
you're sad or full of emotions.
Has doing this photography forso long changed the way you
feel?
Has it taught you a lot?
Klaus Bo (14:00):
Yeah, I would say so.
I was quite scared myself ofdying when I was younger.
I couldn't sleep sometimesbecause for me sleeping was the
same as dying because you didn'tremember anything after when
you woke up.
So I was quite afraid ofsleeping sometimes.
And I had a big fear of deathbecause it is a big mystery what
(14:24):
is going to happen, whathappens when we die.
But I would say after I've beentraveling the way I have, I'm
not afraid of dying anymore.
Most of the places, or I wouldsay even all the places I've
been, they believe in some kindof an afterlife.
It's described in verydifferent ways, but most places
they say, well, yeah, theafterlife is probably something
(14:47):
like the same that we have now,where we are now.
Just in another place.
So life just continues, but inanother place.
But it looks probably a lotlike this life we're having now.
And that's really interesting.
I never believed in anythinglike that.
I'm an atheist and I'm grown upin a country which is
basically...
Atheistic.
(15:08):
It's not an easy word, is it?
Yeah.
And basically we don't know.
Even the chairman of our DanishNational Gallery is an
anthropologist.
He believes, he's beentraveling quite a lot as well,
and he believes in there's alife after death.
Probably some kind of aparallel universe, and basically
it's the same as here.
And basically he says there'san exchange of souls between the
(15:31):
world of the living and theworld of the dead.
And basically we don't know, ashe says, that's what he says,
Basically, we don't know if weare in the world of the dead or
if we are in the world of theliving at the moment.
Lo Carmen (15:49):
Throughout the ages, most cultures have held a belief
in souls and some type ofafterlife.
There's the kingdom of thedead, the underworld, the
Elysian fields, Valhalla, theSheol, Heaven, Hell and
Purgatory, The Spirit Prison,Paradise, The Celestial Kingdom,
(16:11):
Jana and Jahannam, The SixRealms of Existence, The Pure
Land, Nirvana, The World ofSpirits, Folkvanga, The Covered
Hall, The Summerland andAncestor Veneration.
Having been raised withoutreligion, I mentally conjured my
own vision of an afterlife thatwas heavily inspired by a 1970
(16:35):
episode of Bewitched, where awitch's convention took place in
a dim, smoky land of clouds andpurple cocktails, where
everyone looked amazing, dressedin floaty sleeves and
shimmering fabrics, and I'venever stopped imagining the
people that I know ascendingthere after their death.
My dad calls it the big blow inthe sky, which I like to
(17:00):
imagine as the ultimatenightclub.
Considering there are so manypossibilities, it makes sense
that many of us are drawn toexploring them and witnessing
for ourselves what othersbelieve.
Klaus says he has been welcomedeverywhere he's been when he
explains what he's doing andwhy.
Klaus Bo (17:19):
But if you want to participate, you also give them
something as a gift.
You're very welcome.
You're very welcome.
For the ritual they use, theyhave this special drink called
tsukakash.
which is a very stronghomebrew.
And then you have to, you givelike a liter of that and give
them a little amount of money tohelp because it's quite
(17:40):
expensive for them to do thisritual.
They have to sacrifice at leastone animal or maybe a few.
So it's expensive. For thegods.
Yes, but they eat everything,everything.
There's nothing that...
Lo Carmen (17:52):
Nothing's wasted.
Klaus Bo (17:53):
They use everything.
Lo Carmen (17:54):
It's interesting, isn't it, how food seems to play
a large part in death allaround the world.
Yes.
There's a lot of stories offood being given to the person
that has died.
Klaus Bo (18:06):
Oh, yeah.
I've seen that several places.
What have
Lo Carmen (18:10):
What have you seen?
Klaus Bo (18:12):
This is also back in Indonesia.
I mean, they don't see deathas, how do you say, something
that happens in a second.
It's like something that, it'sa process.
You don't die from one day toanother or from one hour to the
other.
It's a long process.
Lo Carmen (18:26):
Like you slowly drift away?
Yeah.
something like that and thenyou're called when you're lying
you can be lying in the home inIndonesia for like some places
it's like six weeks to explainthat when I say Indonesia I mean
Tanah Toraja in Sulawesibecause it's a very special
region and that's where I was inTanah Toraja.
And if you die, what we calldying, then you're placed in a
(18:50):
home and you're given food everyevening.
You're given a plate of rice.
Do you mean they just put the plate next to the
person's head?
They don't actually put itinside their mouth?
Klaus Bo (19:00):
No. They don't, but they call it, then you're called
a tomakula, which means a sickperson.
And you are actually, you'resick until the first buffalo is
sacrificed because your soul oryour spirit or whatever you
would call it, needs the soul ofa buffalo to be able to enter
their paradise.
Yeah, but the thing with thefood is quite interesting,
(19:23):
because I witnessed a family whojust came home with the woman
in the house.
She died, and then she wastaken home from the hospital,
and the moment they took her inthe house, they gave her fresh
rice, and they actually tried tofeed her with it, because they
say if anything can wake her up,it's the home-cooked rice of
(19:43):
the house.
Lo Carmen (19:44):
Because it's so delicious that she will wake up
to eat it.
That's beautiful.
In Tana Taraja, when smallbabies die, they are buried
inside the trunks of taro treesso their spirits will be
symbolically absorbed by nature.
The sap of the tree representsbreast milk, nurturing the child
(20:09):
in the afterlife.
The symbolic intertwining offood in death rituals takes many
forms around the world.
Ancient Greeks believed thatlife was bitter and death sweet.
Some religions promised anafterlife flowing with milk and
honey awaiting them after death.
Egyptians, Greeks, Romans,Hindus, Chinese and African
(20:34):
people placed pots of honey nextto their corpses and honey was
poured over graves on theanniversary of the person's
death.
Egyptians also anointed thelips of their deceased priests
with honey and ancient Greeksincluded honey cakes to bribe
Cerebus at the gates of Hades.
Bread and beer were left intombs for the deceased for their
(20:57):
spiritual nourishment, alongwith paintings of cattle and
birds for extra sustenance whenthe real food ran out.
These were consideredintermediaries between our world
and the spirit world in theVictorian era and were ritually
informed of any deaths, birthsor marriages.
When a member of the householddied, a black cloth and ribbon
(21:20):
would be draped over the hive,and the youngest member of the
family would be sent to whisperthree times something along the
lines of, "'Little brownies,little brownies, your mistress
is dead.'" and leftovers fromthe funeral feast would be left
out for the bees as a sign ofappreciation for them, so that
death wouldn't take them too.
(21:41):
In China, the eating of chickensymbolically helps the soul of
the dead to fly to heaven, andeating sweets and candies after
a funeral purifies mourners.
In the Hindu faith, baskets offruit and vegetables are given
to families of the dead, TheAmish bake a raisin-filled
(22:01):
funeral pie, and in Sweden, thedead are toasted with funeral
glock.
In Brittany, France, whensomeone dies from cancer, a
plate of butter is placed on atable near the dead person to
soak up all of the cancer.
Then it's buried outside sothat none of them will be
diagnosed with the disease inthe future.
(22:22):
They believed that a little flywould appear on the lips of the
corpse, which they believedcontained the soul of the
departed.
The fly would then head over toa jar of open honey to fortify
itself before it set off on longtravels to the spirit world.
Corpse cakes, also known askoliva, emerged in the Middle
(22:44):
Ages from Germany made withboiled wheat sprinkled with
sugar, fruit and nuts and shapedto resemble a grave mound.
Eating it symbolically mirroredthe act of eating the deceased.
The dough would be prepared andthen left to rise on the
freshly washed linen coveredchest of the corpse absorbing
(23:05):
some of the deceased's personalqualities that would then be
passed on to the mourners asthey ate the corpse cakes.
Unknown (23:13):
Music
Lo Carmen (23:13):
Similarly, in China, monks can transfer the sins of
the dead to dim sum dishes,which are then eaten by sin
eaters.
In England and Ireland from the17th to 20th century, bread and
salt would be left on a corpseto be eaten by a person of the
lowest possible social standingwho was paid a pittance to
(23:38):
attend the wake, eat the breadand salt, resting on the chest
of the deceased, consuming andtransferring the sins of the
dead to himself so that thedeparted soul could enter
heaven.
After the sin eater finishedeating, he was often mercilessly
kicked Kicked, punched andthrown around by the crowd as he
tried to leave the gathering.
(23:58):
Next, the mourners would scoffcakes representing new life
served on top of the corpse bythe bereaved family.
My dear school friend, SarahBidak, and fellow musician from
Romani Gypsy band, Loro Lavina,told me a story about what
happened when her husband'scousin, they called each other
(24:19):
brothers, died in Serbia a fewyears ago.
Sarah Bedak (24:24):
We were on tour with Lola Lovina and all these
songs kept coming on the radiothat were songs that Butsco
loved.
And then I was like, wow, thissong he loved.
This is amazing.
This playlist that's coming outon the radio is amazing.
It's all Butsco's music.
Wow.
Yeah.
And then we made it back home,and Nenad went in to see Budsko,
(24:49):
and three minutes later hepassed away.
So it felt like he was waitingfor Nenad.
Lo Carmen (24:55):
Wow.
Sarah Bedak (24:56):
To die with Nenad.
So, yeah, amazing.
In Romani culture in Serbia,and it's probably...
I'm not too sure if it'sgreater Serbian culture.
I actually don't know.
But the body stays in thehouse.
Lo Carmen (25:11):
In the...
bed where he died
Sarah Bedak (25:13):
or yeah in the lap his bed was kind of in the
lounge room so it was like andthere was community around
family and neighbors and aroundall the time like just to come
and visit him and just they hangout there's no you know it's
different to here there's justpeople it's not all cautious no
no getting
Lo Carmen (25:32):
on with life
Sarah Bedak (25:33):
around him yeah yeah yeah sitting around smoking
endless cigarettes and drinkinglots of coffee
Lo Carmen (25:39):
so did they do anything special with his body
when Yeah,
Sarah Bedak (25:43):
so it's like normally the parent or the son
or the, yeah, a close relativeanyway that needs to wash the
body.
So the dead body is there.
Butsko is there.
So you need to be undressed andthen washed and then dressed in
his clothes.
You choose a suit or a dressthat you want to die in.
(26:06):
That's a thing there.
So he would have
Lo Carmen (26:09):
pre-chosen...
Sarah Bedak (26:10):
Yes, yeah.
He chose his outfit, which wasa lovely sort of brown kind of
70s suit.
It was really cool.
Lo Carmen (26:18):
I love that.
Sarah Bedak (26:19):
It was great, yeah.
And, yeah, and I went and satwith my husband and just...
And I was terrified.
I was like, I've never seen adead body.
I don't know how I'm going toreact, but I really want to
support him because I know it'sgoing to be really hard.
Lo Carmen (26:33):
Mm-hm.
Sarah Bedak (26:33):
And he was so strong because it was, you know,
what a thing to do.
But, yeah, he washed his bodyjust so lovingly.
So Nanad did it.
He did the washing.
He did the washing.
And was
Lo Carmen (26:47):
life just going on around you while it happened?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There was people chatting andpeople,
Sarah Bedak (26:54):
yep, wailing, like lots of expressive, expressive
things.
emotion, which was beautiful tosee too.
Like people are kind of, youknow, like falling on the floor
and, you know, like just reallyletting it out.
Lo Carmen (27:08):
And then how long did he remain in the room?
Sarah Bedak (27:11):
It's 24 hours now.
It used to be three days.
The body used to be there forthree days and you'd just go and
visit and people would, there'sa thing of to the night that
they die, there's a candle thatis on the whole time.
But you tend to the candle at 6and 12.
(27:31):
So you make sure that it's alight so that someone stays
awake all the time.
Or, you know, like you taketurns around the candle.
And then there's eating.
So you need to eat in unevengroups.
So groups of three, five, sevensmall meals.
And you don't really talk.
Like, interesting...
(27:52):
Was all of this
Lo Carmen (27:54):
explained to you as it happened?
Not really.
Was it like everyone understoodwhat the
Sarah Bedak (28:01):
rules were?
Yeah, everyone understood.
I didn't really speak.
I understand a bit.
So you just followed along.
Yeah, just gave myself to whatwas going.
But yeah, like Nanad wasamazing and just like spoke,
like just lovingly spoke to hisbrother the whole time and And
there's a thing where your jawdrops and so he was just holding
(28:23):
for a long time until there wasthis something that wraps
around the head and keeps thejaw shut.
There was a special thing thathis wife had that she wanted to
use and she couldn't find it soNenna just held his jaw for ages
and just stroked his head andtalked.
It was so beautiful.
So ordinary.
(28:43):
So real and human and I was sograteful for that experience
because of all the fear in oursociety around death.
And it was just beautiful,ordinary.
Lo Carmen (28:58):
And a very meaningful goodbye.
Sarah Bedak (29:01):
Oh, such a complete goodbye from everyone.
Lo Carmen (29:06):
And you really know he's gone.
Yeah.
And you accept it.
Sarah Bedak (29:09):
Yes.
It's not a mystery.
It's not a...
Lo Carmen (29:13):
And so then is he picked up by like an ambulance
or something
Sarah Bedak (29:17):
like that?
Yeah, so the coffin came andthat was, it's a refrigerated
coffin with a window so he canview.
But the hearse was also, it'slike a van used for pastries,
delivery.
They didn't have money for it.
That's a sweet combination.
(29:38):
It is, pastries and coffins.
So, like, the van came with acoffin and then he was placed in
the coffin with all, like, allthe women, like, were folding
his, like, sets of undies andsocks and his favourite clothes
and cigarettes and bottles ofrakia, which is, like, this
alcohol
Lo Carmen (29:57):
that they have.
For the afterlife, inside hiscoffin.
Sarah Bedak (30:00):
Yeah, but so practical, matter of fact,
folding his undies in little,you know...
And then, yeah, and then he waslaid on top of that, all these
things.
So that's saying you
Lo Carmen (30:11):
can't take it with you when you go.
It's
Sarah Bedak (30:13):
not right.
Absolutely not.
Because you can't.
Yeah.
There's a rich Romani peoplethat have, like, rooms built for
them with everything.
Their car, their, like, youknow.
Lo Carmen (30:25):
Wow.
Sarah Bedak (30:26):
Versace room.
Hilarious.
Anyway, so that was all.
in there and then for the dayeveryone yeah just the community
family friends came
Lo Carmen (30:36):
to the house or did you follow the body to a
ceremony
Sarah Bedak (30:41):
yeah so for the 24 hours there's people around and
then um yeah and then he's takenout of the house and there's a
brass band that play as theytake the body out you don't
normally you don't have musicfor a while, but the music comes
as the body comes out of thehouse and yeah, and then into
(31:03):
the pastry van and yeah, likewailing and Matt, our sax
player, who came especially formusic and then this happened.
So then he's in this otherworld of like, all right.
Lo Carmen (31:18):
Now I'm playing funeral music.
Sarah Bedak (31:19):
Yeah, or yeah, we weren't allowed to listen to
music for the whole time he wasthere.
But he, lots of people werefrightened of carrying the
coffin because it's like a thingof your next, lots of...
Superstitions.
Superstitions, that's the wordI'm looking for.
And so, and what they had wasthe pallbearers, the coffin
(31:43):
carriers, were each given awhite towel to wrap around the
arm that...
They carry the coffin with andthat's like a symbol of like...
Protection.
Purity and protection.
So you're not going to be next,it's all alright.
So Matt, the sax player, wasreally strong and he...
they were all really proud ofhim you know this white guy
(32:04):
coming over here and likecarrying the coffin and totally
being involved and he's got alot of respect in that community
now from that it's amazing
Lo Carmen (32:13):
sounds extraordinary
Sarah Bedak (32:14):
it was yeah so then yeah so he the body was put
into the van taken to thecemetery and then everyone sits
around the coffin the lid istaken off and there's a room and
everyone can sit around andjust mourn yeah and then he was
buried and then there's a feastthat happens on the grave so
Like
Lo Carmen (32:33):
the food is laid on top of the grave?
Sarah Bedak (32:35):
Yeah.
So there's like a picnicblanket and there's, you know,
women making, you know, they'vebrought amazing food and drinks
and there's a thing where youdrink and then you pour a bit of
the drink onto the earth whichis your sharing.
So you're sharing all the time.
You're sharing your food withthe person who's just passed.
Wow.
So beautiful.
So yeah, we had this beautifulfeast on the grave and then we
(32:58):
had another feast afterwards.
Nenna's brother hired out thishall and there was like 50
people sitting at a big longtable and we just ate and drank
and remembered him.
So complete and so, they dodeath really well.
I was so, so grateful towitness that.
(33:19):
The next day we went back foranother feast and then there's
seven days, 40 days and a yearwhere you go back and have a
feast.
And there's a whole lot ofother ritual things that happen.
But yeah, it was an incredibleexperience.
It was beautiful.
Klaus Bo (33:38):
Madagascar is amazing; in the highlands of
Madagascar, and they have thisvery special ritual called the
famadiana, which is also knownas turning of the bones, and
it's a little similar to whathappens in Indonesia.
The origin of this ritual isprobably Indonesia.
(33:58):
Madagascar is a very specialplace.
It's kind of one of the fourcorners of the world, people
say, and it's really an amazingplace.
People are so friendly.
There's been a migration fromIndonesia down to Madagascar.
There's no direct proof of it,but it seems like it's kind of
the same rituals.
And in Madagascar, it's likesomeone is dreaming one day that
(34:19):
grandpa is not doing very wellup there in the family crypt.
So they call for the wholefamily.
If you're a living somewhereelse, you have to come.
And it's the same thing as inIndonesia, in Sulawesi, Tanah
Toraja.
But then people, they arrive,the village, then they stay with
the family, and when everybodyhas arrived, they decide to go
(34:41):
to the family crypt.
And they open the crypt, andthey go down into the crypt, and
it's like there can be maybe 25bodies in there, maybe 50
bodies.
Each crypt is like for thewhole family, like the big
family, the greater family.
And then they go in there andthey actually take out, they
literally take out the deadpeople and they take them out
and they are wrapped in silk.
And then they wrap them in newsilk and they write their names
(35:06):
on them and they dance likecrazy with them.
Over their head and they'redancing and there's music and
it's really a party.
They're dancing like crazy, andit's like everybody is there.
I mean, from the villagesaround, everyone is coming, and
it's actually quite a big party.
And then when the sun goesdown, they put them back in, and
(35:28):
they close the crypt, and theygo back, and then they have to
sacrifice some animals andhaving a big meal.
Lo Carmen (35:35):
Wow.
That must be extraordinary towitness.
Klaus Bo (35:38):
It's amazing, and it's an amazing belief because they
think that the ancestors, theyare the only connection to the
gods.
Oh, so
Lo Carmen (35:48):
they're like a through line.
Klaus Bo (35:49):
Yes, and that's the only way you can talk to the
gods.
It's through the ancestors.
Lo Carmen (35:54):
When Klaus travels to these places, he doesn't just
pass through.
He spends at least a month,sometimes three months, living
in the villages alongsideeverybody else.
Eating what they eat,travelling how they travel, they
very much take him in as partof the family and make him feel
very welcome.
(36:14):
So he really gets an amazinginsight into what's going on.
According to Malagasy Beliefs,Man is not made of earth, but of
(36:53):
the ancestral bodies.
And according to faith, theancestors have not left the
world of the living before theirbodies are completely
decomposed.
Until then, it's possible tocommunicate with the dead, who
are treated with great respectand love at the famadihana.
During the ritual, the familiesthank their ancestors and tell
(37:13):
them how it goes in the world ofthe living.
The ancestors are also askedfor good health or a good
harvest.
This ritual is held everyseventh year in the highlands of
Madagascar.
The family graves are opened,the dead are carried out in the
open where they are re-wrappedin new silk and then the
families dance around the gravewith their ancestors held above
(37:38):
their heads.
Huge groups of people passingthese silk-wrapped, decomposing
bodies, skeletons, above theirheads before they are reburied
together in a big crypt.
It's just really quitemagnificent.
And the ritual is actually indanger due to growing poverty
(37:58):
and the escalating cost of silk,outbreaks of plague, and
opposition from the Protestantchurch that reject the ritual.
whereas the Catholic Churchperceives the ritual as a
cultural tradition and is moreaccepting of it.
And you've been to Varanasitoo, right?
Klaus Bo (38:16):
I spent some weeks there.
The
Lo Carmen (38:17):
body's been burnt on the...
Yeah,
Klaus Bo (38:20):
that's like an open crematorium.
They burn in Varanasi atManikanika Ghat.
They burn around 200 peopleevery day.
But it's a very importantritual.
Fire is cleansing the body andwater from the Ganges is
cleansing water.
And then you have Varanasi asthe holiest city in Hinduism.
And the thing is that if youare cremated in Varanasi or if
(38:45):
you're cremated somewhere elseand you're the ashes are thrown
into Ganges in Varanasi, and theright rituals are performed
well, then you can actuallyleave this eternal cycle of life
and death and become part of,you know, achieve moksha, they
call it, so you become part ofthe divine.
Lo Carmen (39:06):
You get to escape the rat race.
Klaus Bo (39:07):
Exactly.
Lo Carmen (39:10):
A very dear member of our chosen family was deeply
devoted to the Krishna faith Shespent a lot of time in India
and wanted nothing more than tobe returned to the Ganges after
her physical death.
Her beloved roommate made ither mission to see that her
wishes were fulfilled,travelling alone on the epic
(39:30):
journey from Australia to Indiato scatter the ashes in the
river to ensure her friendachieved Moksha.
the transcendental liberationfrom the material world of
suffering, limitations and thecycle of birth and death into a
merging with the divine.
It makes me so grateful thatshe was able to give our friend
(39:54):
the gift of that ultimatetranscendent state.
I do hope I've expressed itproperly.
Obviously, it's a complex setof beliefs.
My friend and former schoolteacher, Jane, who we heard from
in episode 3, also made apilgrimage to the Ganges with
her husband Mark's ashes.
(40:14):
Although he'd been sick for awhile, they hadn't discussed
what he would like to happenafter he went, so she just had
to do what she thought was bestand what would make him
happiest.
She had already given him anamazing celebratory service in
Sydney that combined church,jazz and the Maori haka.
But then when her daughterHolly and some friends were
(40:36):
going to India for a musicfestival soon after, she felt
compelled to join them and totake his ashes to the Ganges.
Jane Skinner (40:43):
It was typical of us not to talk about it.
We didn't talk about things,you know, deep and meaningful
things like that very much.
We just went ahead and got onwith living.
Yeah.
was cheerful and positive youknow right till the end and he
died on the 23rd of December andit just happened that Holly was
(41:04):
going to India in the followingFebruary, I obviously wasn't
planning to go because i didn'tknow what state Mark would be in
but when he died, she said youmust come with us you know to
the music festival and they werealso going to Varanasi so the
idea of having a ceremony on theGanges, you know, occurred to
(41:24):
me then.
He wasn't a Buddhist, but hewas very much a failed Catholic
and very interested in Buddhism,Hinduism and, you know, other
philosophies.
And Varanasi is a very, very,very spiritual place.
And we stayed in a little guesthouse on the river, on the
Ganges.
(41:45):
And every morning and everynight we would, we had a...
gorgeous young boatman who usedto pick us up and just row us
up the river and then float backdown the river at the end of
the evening.
And you'd see day and night theceremony of the burning the
bodies on the side of theGanges.
Lo Carmen (42:05):
So is there like one funeral pyre or a lot?
Jane Skinner (42:09):
There are two sites, one main one, and there
would be maybe six burningpeople at the same time, burning
bodies at the same time.
And they bring the bodies, theywrap them all up in gold and
they bring them down.
And there's been obviouslyother ceremonies that have
happened before, but they bringthem down, the men, to the gat
(42:34):
and it's very expensive to buythe firewood so only the wealthy
get burned there the lesswealthy have to go to gas
burning.
Varanasi is the city wherepeople go to die because people
believe that if you die inVaranasi you escape the cycle of
life you don't get reincarnatedso you go straight to heaven
(42:57):
basically.
So during that holiday, Marksaid to me, I want to walk
through the burning gat, whichwas a bit horrifying to me, but
we did, which was prettyconfronting, you know, but also.
Very ordinary.
And that's what happens, youknow, it becomes ordinary.
(43:19):
And the faster you burn, youknow, the quicker you're going
to go to heaven, which of courseis just one way of saying it'll
be cheaper because you won'tneed any more wood.
But, you know, there's...
All the things, all thefunctions are happening.
There's cows walking through itand dogs and, you know, people
pulling, trying to find gold.
So you see the cycle
(43:40):
So you see the cycle of life up close.
Absolutely, up close.
Very, very real when a body isburning beside you and you see
the foot, you know, sticking outthe bottom.
So he wanted to walk throughand we did that.
And is it true that everyonewashes their face in there in
the morning and then goes to thebathroom in there and then
there's...
bodies floating by and they getfully into the river and wash.
(44:01):
The river is everything.
The river is life and death.
So we all went out on a boatand My grandchildren and others
in Sydney had written things tobe read out.
And so everybody read somethingout from the grandchildren.
(44:24):
And we had singing and weburned 108 candles.
It's a Hindu.
It's a special number of aHindu, and I should have looked
it up.
Anyway, 108 candles, which welit and put on the Ganges.
So you're on the boat.
So we're on the boat.
There's a group of you and anIndian guide there.
(44:45):
An Indian person that dealswith...
Yeah, he was basically justsinging, I think.
But he also sort of directedwhat we should do.
But it was all a bit of amystery, I have to tell you.
Right.
And then are you responsiblefor doing the scattering?
Yes.
And so you just decide whenyourself...
(45:06):
No, it was all he, yeah, theyall did directly.
Now we'll light the candles andnow you sprinkle the ashes.
But the horrifying thing, ofcourse, was that I had put the
box, as you saw, it was a sortof an oblong box, in one of his
shoe bags, which was a BrunoMali or something bag that I had
(45:27):
put it in.
And so we took the box out.
Then we couldn't get theletter.
While you were on the boat.
While we were on the boat.
There was a lot of difficultyin finding a screwdriver or
something to get it in.
to get the stopper out, whichwas, of course...
Were you laughing or was itstressful?
It was tricky.
And then the man who wasdirecting me took the box and
(45:50):
the bag and just said, do youstow them in too?
They have to go in the rivertoo.
I keep thinking of this BrunoMali bag floating down the
river.
No doubt.
It was found and repurposed andmade somebody very happy.
So, you know, the actual...
ceremony of it was specialbecause we had been on the river
(46:14):
so many times and we had donethis and we had lit candles and
you know so I guess and it's avery and it's a very spiritual
place
Klaus Bo (46:25):
same and what I recently found out I was
listening to an interview I didin Haiti with a man called Max
Beauvoir he's unfortunately deadnow he was the head of voodoo,
pope of voodoo, he calledhimself, and he explained about
the voodoo tradition that it'sthe same thing that you are
reincarnated, but in the Haitianvoodoo, you're reincarnated 16
(46:47):
times, eight times as a womanand eight times as a man.
Lo Carmen (46:51):
Wow, how intriguing.
Klaus Bo (46:52):
Yes.
The 17th time, you are actuallymelting into the divine, you're
becoming part of the divine aswell, like in Hinduism.
Lo Carmen (47:03):
That's interesting.
In astrology, there's a similarkind of belief of you work your
way through the different starsigns until you finally come
back as a Piscean, which is whatI know.
And then that's your last one,apparently.
And if you want to get itright, then that's it.
You're allowed to...
(47:23):
So
Klaus Bo (47:25):
this is your last time here?
Lo Carmen (47:29):
Well, not necessarily, because I might be
messing it up, so I might haveto come back as a Piscean
multiple times. In fact, that'shighly likely.
Klaus Bo (47:40):
But in the Haitian voodoo, the whole purpose of
living is likegathering knowledge.
Lo Carmen (47:47):
How beautiful.
Klaus Bo (47:49):
Yes, and it's like, he said a quite interesting thing,
Max Beauvoir, he said, like,yeah, you know, a thief or
people who are behaving bad,they're maybe only in their
first or second or third life.
And that's why they don't knowhow to behave well.
But then they get educated andthey learn and then they are
reborn and they will slowly,slowly
Lo Carmen (48:12):
Right.
Slowly learn and become
Klaus Bo (48:14):
teachers.
Yeah.
Or priests.
It
Lo Carmen (48:18):
kind of changes everything if you look at the
world today.
Like that, doesn't it?
I think so.
It takes away judgment andpossibly even fear.
I'm not sure about that, butit's only judgment if you just
think about everyone being in aprocess of becoming better.
Klaus Bo (48:41):
Yeah, everybody's trying to learn all the time.
So it's a very nice way to lookat the world,
Lo Carmen (48:48):
I think,
Klaus Bo (48:49):
and look at humanity.
Lo Carmen (48:51):
I can only imagine
Klaus Bo (48:52):
that
Lo Carmen (48:53):
spending so much time around death rituals and
customs has got to give you suchan incredible overview of
humanity.
Klaus Bo (49:02):
Yeah, it is really interesting.
Lo Carmen (49:24):
When you first started your photography, your
death photography, did it seemlike it might just be a passing
interest, or did you feelimmediately like it would be a
calling?
Klaus Bo (49:34):
I was actually, I started thinking about this idea
eight years before I starteddoing it.
Lo Carmen (49:42):
Really?
Klaus Bo (49:42):
Yes.
I went to a Muslim ceremonyhere in Denmark, in Copenhagen,
and there was this old man, hedied, And I was doing a
documentary about the mosque.
There's a very big mosque, butthey live like a very hidden
life.
They don't make a big fussabout it.
(50:03):
And then this guy died, and Iasked if I could come and take
pictures of the ceremonies.
He was going to be sent back toPakistan to be buried there.
And then I went, and it's in2002, and then There was a lot
of people coming because he wasapparently a very loved man.
So the mosque was full and thenI caught this picture in the
(50:27):
middle of it all with a smallyoung boy looking into the
coffin.
And it was like a window in thecoffin.
And it was like he was lookingat it with no fear.
He was just curious.
He was just looking into thiscoffin and wow.
And I started thinking when Icame back home.
I'd never seen a dead personbefore that.
before this guy and I came homeand I started thinking about
(50:49):
how big a taboo death is for ushere in Denmark or worse at that
time.
It's developing slowly and it'schanging a bit but very slowly.
And then I thought about thatfor a while and then I had this
very dear friend of mine whodied and suddenly I found myself
(51:09):
in my own home alone for sixweeks or something like that.
Nobody called me, nobody talkedto me.
You know, it was really weird.
Lo Carmen (51:17):
But because you were grieving and people didn't want
to disturb you?
Klaus Bo (51:22):
Yeah, I think it's like...
Lo Carmen (51:25):
So people were trying to be respectful, but...
Yeah,
Klaus Bo (51:27):
in the wrong way.
Lo Carmen (51:30):
You
Klaus Bo (51:31):
were
Lo Carmen (51:31):
desperate for hugs and friends.
Klaus Bo (51:34):
Yeah, just talking about her, you know.
And...
Then I went to Greenland.
I was actually going there on ajourney with the Danish queen
and her husband.
They visited Greenland, andthen they were going to land in
Uppernivik, which is north ofthe Arctic Circle.
(51:57):
And I was up there with thewhole group of Danish press
photographers.
And then she couldn't landbecause of bad weather, so I
went to the cemetery.
And I found this, like,dreaming.
It was amazing.
It was out of this world, thiscemetery.
And I took some pictures, andthen I really started thinking,
there's something in thiscemetery.
story or what you would callit.
(52:18):
There's something in studyingit because it's been studied a
lot by anthropologists,ethnologists and other, you
know, on a university level, butthey never take pictures.
No, it's
Lo Carmen (52:33):
true.
I've been researching a lot andI see the same pictures used
over and over and they oftenappear very old too.
I did see a lot of Victoriandeath photos where often it was
the only photograph they'd haveof the family was when a child
would die and they would want tocommemorate thechild.
(52:56):
Yeah, we don't do that anymore.
We used to do that here inDenmark as well, but you don't
do it anymore.
Peter Head (53:01):
Right.
Klaus Bo (53:01):
But around in the world, it's quite normal to have
pictures taken with the dead.
That's the thing when you workwith a taboo, you always have
to, you always confront yourselfwith it all the time.
But, you know, around theworld, they're just, come on,
take, my picture with my deadgrandma or whatever.
And after you've done that, nowit's your turn.
I have pictures from all overthe world where I'm part of
(53:25):
these photography sessions.
Where
Lo Carmen (53:27):
you're part of these family
Klaus Bo (53:28):
photos.
And the family photos, yeah,that's quite amazing.
Lo Carmen (53:37):
So have you got plans for yourself?
Klaus Bo (53:40):
Well, I don't know.
I think I would just have, Iwould tell people to make a huge
party, celebrate, get drunk andsmoke weed and, you know, have
a good time.
And then I would like to belike, have one part of each of
the rituals I have photographedto be part of this, my own
(54:03):
funeral.
In a symbolic way, maybe, but,you know, yeah.
But then I would say I thinkit's up to my family what they
want to do with me and my ashesor my body or whatever.
If they need a place where theycan go, fine with me.
I think they should have thatif they want that.
I'm not like, oh, I don't wanta gravestone.
I don't want to be buried inthe soil.
(54:25):
I don't mind.
I mean, it's up to the people Ileave behind, I think.
Lo Carmen (54:30):
Yes, because you won't really care.
Klaus Bo (54:32):
Yeah, exactly.
Or maybe I will.
I don't know.
Maybe you will.
Lo Carmen (54:36):
Who knows?
Maybe you'll be looking downfrom that cloud with you.
Yeah.
Oh, no, not there.
Klaus Bo (54:41):
Yeah.
The checklist is over there.
Yeah.
I don't want to lie next tohim.
Can you move me?
Yeah, please.
Lo Carmen (55:01):
It's very clear to me, after all we've heard about
this episode, is that ritualsare a powerful way to navigate
death, to go deep with it and tofind ways of accepting and
understanding the cycles ofdeath and living.
From what I can tell, making upour own rituals or
participating in rituals thataren't from our own culture can
(55:23):
be just as spiritual andsatisfying an experience.
All that matters is our ownbelief and the ability to give
ourselves over to the process.
And let's not forget, food andmusic seem to play a very
important part in it all too.
I would love to hear yourthoughts on this.
You can find me online atlowcarmen.substack.com I go
(55:49):
deeper on the episodes withadded extras in my newsletter
there and we can discussfurther.
Thank you to Klaus Bowe, SarahBiedak and Jane Skinner for
talking with me.
You can and should find Klaus'sincredible body of work at
deadandaliveproject.com.
We heard excerpts from EmmaSwift's new song, The
(56:14):
Resurrection Game.
My song, Everyone You EverKnew, is coming back to haunt
you.
And soon two more from LoloLovina.
Death Is Not The End thememusic was composed, performed
and recorded by Peter Head.
He also created much of theincidental music, along with
(56:34):
selections from the Descript andMuseOpen music libraries.
Kora Dream by Silaba, Kali Doliby Pawan Krishna were courtesy
of Epidemic Sound.
Death Is Not The End is a BlackTambourine Productions
production, created, written andedited by me, your host, Lo
(56:55):
Carmen.
If you enjoyed today's episode,please do rate and leave a
little review wherever youlisten to podcasts.
I'm entirely independent and itreally helps me to find
listeners for the show.
Thanks for being here with meand see you on the other side.
In our western culture, thephysical process of dying tends
to take place privately behindclosed doors, in hospitals,
hospice and bedrooms, under theguidance of experienced
(00:30):
professionals.
Touching our dead, dressing orpreparing them or even spending
time with them in our homesafter their death is uncommon.
Our grieving also tends to bemore private.
with those that have lost theirpeople trying their best to
keep it together at least untilsome kind of service has been
(00:51):
had and the body laid to restwhen they can fall apart behind
closed doors.
We're kind of expected to cometo terms with the death of the
person we loved in a reasonablytimely manner but in many other
cultures the rituals arounddeath and dying look very
different.
Today we're going to talk withKlaus Bo, a highly regarded
(01:15):
freelance photojournalist basedin Copenhagen, Denmark, who was
inspired to begin his life'swork, The Dead and Alive
Project, in 2010, travelling tomany countries around the world,
immersing himself for extendedperiods of time wherever he goes
to photograph rituals arounddeath and dying.
(01:37):
The Dead and Alive Project isintended to encourage
conversations about death, toexamine how we think about and
relate to death, and to allowpeople to familiarize themselves
in more depth.
Klaus Bo (01:50):
My first trip was to Haiti, where I've been a few
times, and I was interested instudying people's customs around
death, how we relate to deatharound the world, How funeral
ceremonies, how they look, howpeople practice these last
farewells around the world.
If there's anywhere in theworld where death is really up
(02:19):
front, it would be Haiti.
I've been there like four timesbefore, working with different
NGOs.
before the earthquake and afterthe earthquake in Haiti, I went
there.
And then I decided when Iwanted to start my project that
it could be a good place to seeif I could handle myself getting
very close to death, looking atdead people, and if I could
(02:43):
photograph it in a way so otherpeople could handle seeing it
and seeing what I was doing andunderstand the reason why I was
doing what I was doing.
Lo Carmen (02:54):
Was it very confronting for you when you
first went to Haiti?
Klaus Bo (02:58):
Haiti is a very special place.
And it was, well, you can sayalmost, I would say 90% of all
people I have photographed, alldead people I photographed, they
died a natural death.
So it's not confronting in thesame way as when you photograph
death in a place where it's notsupposed to be, if you
(03:18):
understand what I mean.
Lo Carmen (03:20):
What are their rituals in Haiti?
What do they do?
Klaus Bo (03:23):
Oh, they have some very special rituals.
It's the voodoo rituals.
Lo Carmen (03:27):
Oh, can you tell us?
Klaus Bo (03:28):
u Yeah.
They have a special ritualcalled a vey, which is similar
to a wake, where they sing andthey dance.
The dead person is representedby a calabash.
It's a dried fruit.
And they...
drum on that one it's put inwater with the different
substances like perfume herbsand everything and then the call
(03:52):
for the spirits by singing forlike at least four hours yeah
and then in the end when theywhen they have called for the
voodoo spirits, the luas it'scalled.
In the end, the spirit of thedead will be caught by this
thing and it will go into thewater and it will be caught in
the calabash, which is likeupside down in the water.
(04:13):
And then it will bring itoutside and set it free again.
Then I went to another ritual,which is called a desunin.
When you get how do you say,inaugurated in the voodoo
church, so I don't know exactlyhow to say it, but then there's
a special ritual where you arechosen by one of the voodoo
spirits, and this spirit will beyour guardian angel for the
(04:33):
rest of your life.
But it's very important whenyou die that you take out this
spirit from the dead body again,because otherwise it can become
a ghost and it will haunt you.
the living.
Lo Carmen (04:41):
How interesting.
Klaus Bo (04:43):
That was really interesting.
Lo (04:45):
So if it's treated properly it becomes like a guardian
spirit and if it's not releasedfrom the body it becomes a
ghost, haunted and haunting.
Klaus Bo (04:52):
Yes.
And that's also why you saythat after the earthquake in
Haiti in 2010 Port-au-Prince wasa haunted city because all
these people had to be buried inmass graves and there was no
time to perform the rightrituals.
Unknown (05:09):
Music
Lo Carmen (05:22):
The roots of voodooism have been practiced in
Africa since the beginning ofhuman civilization, predating
any known religion in the worldtoday.
In Haitian voodoo, they saydeath is the wind because death
is seen as a transformation ortransition, a beginning rather
than an end.
Boundaries between life anddeath are fluid, and mourning,
(05:47):
crying and wailing is part of asacred journey that connects the
living and the dead.
In the Haitian voodootradition, it is believed that
the dead either reincarnate byslipping into rivers and streams
and remaining there underwaterfor a year and a day before the
souls emerge from the water,lured by rituals and songs, and
(06:09):
their spirits are reborn, orthey move into the realm of the
ancestors, where they remain abeloved and integral part of the
community, offering guidance,blessings and protection.
If things go awry, they canalso come back as ghosts or as
zombie zombies, so the ritualsaround death are very important.
(06:30):
To voodoo, family gods arevenerated and fed and cherished
for all that they have given andcontinue to give to their
communities, especially life,wisdom and protection.
In return, they're revered andcared for, and Manjimu, or a day
of ritual feeding of the dead,takes place annually, where the
(06:52):
Te Voodoo are thanked for theirblessings, fed, given rum,
honoured with parties full ofdancing and praise songs.
Fete Gede or Festival or Feastof the Dead is one of the most
important celebrations in thevoodoo religious calendar.
It's like a voodoo equivalentof the Mexican Day of the Dead
(07:13):
or Mardi Gras or Halloween allwrapped up in one.
Everyone dresses in black,white and purple.
They walk, drum, sing and dancein processions to the
graveyards to honour the Gedespirits.
They feed their ancestral deadwith gifts and offerings of
spicy foods, flowers, coffee,one with sugar, one without,
(07:36):
homemade beeswax candles and towarm the Gede's bones, bottles
of rum stuffed with chillipeppers.
Gede is the family or nation ofspirits of the dead in Haitian
voodoo.
I found on a voodoo tumblr bysomeone called Rock of Eye a
(08:04):
description that I thought wasquite fantastic. It said, She
says, When asked why he wearsbroken sunglasses, he says he
(08:46):
has one eye on his food and oneeye to see the world or one eye
for pleasure.
Nothing misses his gaze.
He stands at the crossroads oflife and death.
All people have access to Gedebecause all people will die and
all people have been touched bydeath.
He is the Imelda Marcos ofhats.
He loves hats.
(09:06):
If he can put it on his head,he wants to wear it.
Bowler cap, fedora, cowboy hat,witch's hat, party hat,
whatever.
If it's a hat, a Gede will wearit.
I have four hats for Gede onhis chair and he has been very
clear that this is not enough.
He likes imagery of penises andvulvas, so he often gets given
penis vulva candles, lifelikedildos, porn magazines, condoms
(09:30):
and other associated novelties.
He sees us all in our humanitywithout judgement.
Voodoo is a non-hierarchical,living and evolving religion
that is not comparable to anyWestern concepts.
It's believed that over 60million people practice voodoo
worldwide, in West Africa,Brazil, the USA and the
(09:53):
Caribbean, and especially onHeishi, where voodoo was
proclaimed the state religion in2003, and where it is popularly
stated that the people are 80%Catholics and 110% voodooists.
I've seen some of your amazingphotographs from Indonesia.
(10:13):
Oh, yes.
That's kind of similar, isn'tit, in terms of long rituals?
Klaus Bo (10:18):
Oh, yes, long-lasting rituals.
I would say the Haitian one isnot necessarily that long
compared to...
A three-day ritual in themountains in Nepal or the
funeral rituals, the ordinaryfuneral rituals in Indonesia,
they last for like three, fourdays, maybe even seven days.
Lo Carmen (10:35):
Wow.
Klaus Bo (10:36):
Yeah, it's a very costly affair to not to offend
anyone, but I think there's alittle show-off in status as
well sometimes.
But then you have probably seensome of the other rituals where
they take out the dead people,they clean them up and they have
photos taken with them.
Lo Carmen (10:50):
Is it on the anniversary of the person?
Klaus Bo (10:56):
Yeah, it's like the Day of the Dead, actually.
It's not the Day of the Dead,but they do the same stuff as
you do during Day of the Dead.
They clean the graves, theymake them very nice.
prepare everything, and thenthey take out the dead people.
And they do it after harvest.
So it's like a
Lo Carmen (11:10):
grateful celebration?
Klaus Bo (11:12):
Yeah, you can say so.
And they have to do it beforethey start blowing the paddy
fields again and make them readyfor new rice.
Wow.
Do they change
Lo Carmen (11:21):
their clothes and give them cigarettes?
Klaus Bo (11:23):
Yeah, they do.
They take them out, they cleanthem, and they clean the bodies.
There's some bugs and there'ssome dust and stuff, and they
clean it out, and then they puton new clothes.
on the family members, theancestors, and then they are
actually having pictures takenwith them.
They give them cigarettes, theylight up the cigarettes, and
they're actually having a bigcelebration of their ancestors.
(11:45):
Of course, it can be sorrowful,but you're basically not
allowed to cry during theritual.
But of course, some people,they cry if it's a close
relative.
But it's also a bigcelebration.
And people, they come if theylive in Malaysia or wherever
they live.
They actually come for thisoccasion.
Lo Carmen (12:04):
Oh, that's so special.
I've
Unknown (12:07):
come to, to excavate your bones.
So different isn't it to
Lo Carmen (12:30):
what we do
Klaus Bo (12:36):
Oh, yes.
Lo Carmen (12:37):
In our Western countries where it's all very
quiet and respectful and oncesomebody is buried, that's kind
of it.
Klaus Bo (12:47):
Yeah, it's a very big contrast because in our
societies it's two and a halfhours.
I mean, you have half an hourin church and then you have two
hours with coffee and cake.
That's right.
And then everybody goes home tothemselves.
They go alone.
Lo Carmen (13:01):
And you're not even really expected to grieve, are
you?
Klaus Bo (13:04):
No, no.
You're
Lo Carmen (13:04):
meant to grieve very privately and even the wake
after funerals I find inAustralia that's the only place
I've been to funerals it's likeeverybody holds in their sadness
they don't seem to cry they'reall very polite and having
conversations that often don'teven really involve the dead
(13:27):
person, and it's not until theygo
Klaus Bo (13:28):
home that
Lo Carmen (13:30):
it all comes out.
Klaus Bo (13:32):
And if you cry, I've always wondered if someone is
crying, people in the movies andstuff like that, people, they
say, oh, don't cry.
Lo Carmen (13:39):
It's got to be good for you to cry, doesn't
Klaus Bo (13:42):
it?
It's so weird.
It
Lo Carmen (13:42):
makes sense to cry.
Yes,
Klaus Bo (13:44):
exactly.
It's a big relief.
I mean,
Lo Carmen (13:46):
yeah.
It's the natural thing thatyour body wants to do when
you're sad or full of emotions.
Has doing this photography forso long changed the way you
feel?
Has it taught you a lot?
Klaus Bo (14:00):
Yeah, I would say so.
I was quite scared myself ofdying when I was younger.
I couldn't sleep sometimesbecause for me sleeping was the
same as dying because you didn'tremember anything after when
you woke up.
So I was quite afraid ofsleeping sometimes.
And I had a big fear of deathbecause it is a big mystery what
(14:24):
is going to happen, whathappens when we die.
But I would say after I've beentraveling the way I have, I'm
not afraid of dying anymore.
Most of the places, or I wouldsay even all the places I've
been, they believe in some kindof an afterlife.
It's described in verydifferent ways, but most places
they say, well, yeah, theafterlife is probably something
(14:47):
like the same that we have now,where we are now.
Just in another place.
So life just continues, but inanother place.
But it looks probably a lotlike this life we're having now.
And that's really interesting.
I never believed in anythinglike that.
I'm an atheist and I'm grown upin a country which is
basically...
Atheistic.
(15:08):
It's not an easy word, is it?
Yeah.
And basically we don't know.
Even the chairman of our DanishNational Gallery is an
anthropologist.
He believes, he's beentraveling quite a lot as well,
and he believes in there's alife after death.
Probably some kind of aparallel universe, and basically
it's the same as here.
And basically he says there'san exchange of souls between the
(15:31):
world of the living and theworld of the dead.
And basically we don't know, ashe says, that's what he says,
Basically, we don't know if weare in the world of the dead or
if we are in the world of theliving at the moment.
Lo Carmen (15:49):
Throughout the ages, most cultures have held a belief
in souls and some type ofafterlife.
There's the kingdom of thedead, the underworld, the
Elysian fields, Valhalla, theSheol, Heaven, Hell and
Purgatory, The Spirit Prison,Paradise, The Celestial Kingdom,
(16:11):
Jana and Jahannam, The SixRealms of Existence, The Pure
Land, Nirvana, The World ofSpirits, Folkvanga, The Covered
Hall, The Summerland andAncestor Veneration.
Having been raised withoutreligion, I mentally conjured my
own vision of an afterlife thatwas heavily inspired by a 1970
(16:35):
episode of Bewitched, where awitch's convention took place in
a dim, smoky land of clouds andpurple cocktails, where
everyone looked amazing, dressedin floaty sleeves and
shimmering fabrics, and I'venever stopped imagining the
people that I know ascendingthere after their death.
My dad calls it the big blow inthe sky, which I like to
(17:00):
imagine as the ultimatenightclub.
Considering there are so manypossibilities, it makes sense
that many of us are drawn toexploring them and witnessing
for ourselves what othersbelieve.
Klaus says he has been welcomedeverywhere he's been when he
explains what he's doing andwhy.
Klaus Bo (17:19):
But if you want to participate, you also give them
something as a gift.
You're very welcome.
You're very welcome.
For the ritual they use, theyhave this special drink called
tsukakash.
which is a very stronghomebrew.
And then you have to, you givelike a liter of that and give
them a little amount of money tohelp because it's quite
(17:40):
expensive for them to do thisritual.
They have to sacrifice at leastone animal or maybe a few.
So it's expensive. For thegods.
Yes, but they eat everything,everything.
There's nothing that...
Lo Carmen (17:52):
Nothing's wasted.
Klaus Bo (17:53):
They use everything.
Lo Carmen (17:54):
It's interesting, isn't it, how food seems to play
a large part in death allaround the world.
Yes.
There's a lot of stories offood being given to the person
that has died.
Klaus Bo (18:06):
Oh, yeah.
I've seen that several places.
What have
Lo Carmen (18:10):
What have you seen?
Klaus Bo (18:12):
This is also back in Indonesia.
I mean, they don't see deathas, how do you say, something
that happens in a second.
It's like something that, it'sa process.
You don't die from one day toanother or from one hour to the
other.
It's a long process.
Lo Carmen (18:26):
Like you slowly drift away?
Yeah.
something like that and thenyou're called when you're lying
you can be lying in the home inIndonesia for like some places
it's like six weeks to explainthat when I say Indonesia I mean
Tanah Toraja in Sulawesibecause it's a very special
region and that's where I was inTanah Toraja.
And if you die, what we calldying, then you're placed in a
(18:50):
home and you're given food everyevening.
You're given a plate of rice.
Do you mean they just put the plate next to the
person's head?
They don't actually put itinside their mouth?
Klaus Bo (19:00):
No. They don't, but they call it, then you're called
a tomakula, which means a sickperson.
And you are actually, you'resick until the first buffalo is
sacrificed because your soul oryour spirit or whatever you
would call it, needs the soul ofa buffalo to be able to enter
their paradise.
Yeah, but the thing with thefood is quite interesting,
(19:23):
because I witnessed a family whojust came home with the woman
in the house.
She died, and then she wastaken home from the hospital,
and the moment they took her inthe house, they gave her fresh
rice, and they actually tried tofeed her with it, because they
say if anything can wake her up,it's the home-cooked rice of
(19:43):
the house.
Lo Carmen (19:44):
Because it's so delicious that she will wake up
to eat it.
That's beautiful.
In Tana Taraja, when smallbabies die, they are buried
inside the trunks of taro treesso their spirits will be
symbolically absorbed by nature.
The sap of the tree representsbreast milk, nurturing the child
(20:09):
in the afterlife.
The symbolic intertwining offood in death rituals takes many
forms around the world.
Ancient Greeks believed thatlife was bitter and death sweet.
Some religions promised anafterlife flowing with milk and
honey awaiting them after death.
Egyptians, Greeks, Romans,Hindus, Chinese and African
(20:34):
people placed pots of honey nextto their corpses and honey was
poured over graves on theanniversary of the person's
death.
Egyptians also anointed thelips of their deceased priests
with honey and ancient Greeksincluded honey cakes to bribe
Cerebus at the gates of Hades.
Bread and beer were left intombs for the deceased for their
(20:57):
spiritual nourishment, alongwith paintings of cattle and
birds for extra sustenance whenthe real food ran out.
These were consideredintermediaries between our world
and the spirit world in theVictorian era and were ritually
informed of any deaths, birthsor marriages.
When a member of the householddied, a black cloth and ribbon
(21:20):
would be draped over the hive,and the youngest member of the
family would be sent to whisperthree times something along the
lines of, "'Little brownies,little brownies, your mistress
is dead.'" and leftovers fromthe funeral feast would be left
out for the bees as a sign ofappreciation for them, so that
death wouldn't take them too.
(21:41):
In China, the eating of chickensymbolically helps the soul of
the dead to fly to heaven, andeating sweets and candies after
a funeral purifies mourners.
In the Hindu faith, baskets offruit and vegetables are given
to families of the dead, TheAmish bake a raisin-filled
(22:01):
funeral pie, and in Sweden, thedead are toasted with funeral
glock.
In Brittany, France, whensomeone dies from cancer, a
plate of butter is placed on atable near the dead person to
soak up all of the cancer.
Then it's buried outside sothat none of them will be
diagnosed with the disease inthe future.
(22:22):
They believed that a little flywould appear on the lips of the
corpse, which they believedcontained the soul of the
departed.
The fly would then head over toa jar of open honey to fortify
itself before it set off on longtravels to the spirit world.
Corpse cakes, also known askoliva, emerged in the Middle
(22:44):
Ages from Germany made withboiled wheat sprinkled with
sugar, fruit and nuts and shapedto resemble a grave mound.
Eating it symbolically mirroredthe act of eating the deceased.
The dough would be prepared andthen left to rise on the
freshly washed linen coveredchest of the corpse absorbing
(23:05):
some of the deceased's personalqualities that would then be
passed on to the mourners asthey ate the corpse cakes.
Unknown (23:13):
Music
Lo Carmen (23:13):
Similarly, in China, monks can transfer the sins of
the dead to dim sum dishes,which are then eaten by sin
eaters.
In England and Ireland from the17th to 20th century, bread and
salt would be left on a corpseto be eaten by a person of the
lowest possible social standingwho was paid a pittance to
(23:38):
attend the wake, eat the breadand salt, resting on the chest
of the deceased, consuming andtransferring the sins of the
dead to himself so that thedeparted soul could enter
heaven.
After the sin eater finishedeating, he was often mercilessly
kicked Kicked, punched andthrown around by the crowd as he
tried to leave the gathering.
(23:58):
Next, the mourners would scoffcakes representing new life
served on top of the corpse bythe bereaved family.
My dear school friend, SarahBidak, and fellow musician from
Romani Gypsy band, Loro Lavina,told me a story about what
happened when her husband'scousin, they called each other
(24:19):
brothers, died in Serbia a fewyears ago.
Sarah Bedak (24:24):
We were on tour with Lola Lovina and all these
songs kept coming on the radiothat were songs that Butsco
loved.
And then I was like, wow, thissong he loved.
This is amazing.
This playlist that's coming outon the radio is amazing.
It's all Butsco's music.
Wow.
Yeah.
And then we made it back home,and Nenad went in to see Budsko,
(24:49):
and three minutes later hepassed away.
So it felt like he was waitingfor Nenad.
Lo Carmen (24:55):
Wow.
Sarah Bedak (24:56):
To die with Nenad.
So, yeah, amazing.
In Romani culture in Serbia,and it's probably...
I'm not too sure if it'sgreater Serbian culture.
I actually don't know.
But the body stays in thehouse.
Lo Carmen (25:11):
In the...
bed where he died
Sarah Bedak (25:13):
or yeah in the lap his bed was kind of in the
lounge room so it was like andthere was community around
family and neighbors and aroundall the time like just to come
and visit him and just they hangout there's no you know it's
different to here there's justpeople it's not all cautious no
no getting
Lo Carmen (25:32):
on with life
Sarah Bedak (25:33):
around him yeah yeah yeah sitting around smoking
endless cigarettes and drinkinglots of coffee
Lo Carmen (25:39):
so did they do anything special with his body
when Yeah,
Sarah Bedak (25:43):
so it's like normally the parent or the son
or the, yeah, a close relativeanyway that needs to wash the
body.
So the dead body is there.
Butsko is there.
So you need to be undressed andthen washed and then dressed in
his clothes.
You choose a suit or a dressthat you want to die in.
(26:06):
That's a thing there.
So he would have
Lo Carmen (26:09):
pre-chosen...
Sarah Bedak (26:10):
Yes, yeah.
He chose his outfit, which wasa lovely sort of brown kind of
70s suit.
It was really cool.
Lo Carmen (26:18):
I love that.
Sarah Bedak (26:19):
It was great, yeah.
And, yeah, and I went and satwith my husband and just...
And I was terrified.
I was like, I've never seen adead body.
I don't know how I'm going toreact, but I really want to
support him because I know it'sgoing to be really hard.
Lo Carmen (26:33):
Mm-hm.
Sarah Bedak (26:33):
And he was so strong because it was, you know,
what a thing to do.
But, yeah, he washed his bodyjust so lovingly.
So Nanad did it.
He did the washing.
He did the washing.
And was
Lo Carmen (26:47):
life just going on around you while it happened?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There was people chatting andpeople,
Sarah Bedak (26:54):
yep, wailing, like lots of expressive, expressive
things.
emotion, which was beautiful tosee too.
Like people are kind of, youknow, like falling on the floor
and, you know, like just reallyletting it out.
Lo Carmen (27:08):
And then how long did he remain in the room?
Sarah Bedak (27:11):
It's 24 hours now.
It used to be three days.
The body used to be there forthree days and you'd just go and
visit and people would, there'sa thing of to the night that
they die, there's a candle thatis on the whole time.
But you tend to the candle at 6and 12.
(27:31):
So you make sure that it's alight so that someone stays
awake all the time.
Or, you know, like you taketurns around the candle.
And then there's eating.
So you need to eat in unevengroups.
So groups of three, five, sevensmall meals.
And you don't really talk.
Like, interesting...
(27:52):
Was all of this
Lo Carmen (27:54):
explained to you as it happened?
Not really.
Was it like everyone understoodwhat the
Sarah Bedak (28:01):
rules were?
Yeah, everyone understood.
I didn't really speak.
I understand a bit.
So you just followed along.
Yeah, just gave myself to whatwas going.
But yeah, like Nanad wasamazing and just like spoke,
like just lovingly spoke to hisbrother the whole time and And
there's a thing where your jawdrops and so he was just holding
(28:23):
for a long time until there wasthis something that wraps
around the head and keeps thejaw shut.
There was a special thing thathis wife had that she wanted to
use and she couldn't find it soNenna just held his jaw for ages
and just stroked his head andtalked.
It was so beautiful.
So ordinary.
(28:43):
So real and human and I was sograteful for that experience
because of all the fear in oursociety around death.
And it was just beautiful,ordinary.
Lo Carmen (28:58):
And a very meaningful goodbye.
Sarah Bedak (29:01):
Oh, such a complete goodbye from everyone.
Lo Carmen (29:06):
And you really know he's gone.
Yeah.
And you accept it.
Sarah Bedak (29:09):
Yes.
It's not a mystery.
It's not a...
Lo Carmen (29:13):
And so then is he picked up by like an ambulance
or something
Sarah Bedak (29:17):
like that?
Yeah, so the coffin came andthat was, it's a refrigerated
coffin with a window so he canview.
But the hearse was also, it'slike a van used for pastries,
delivery.
They didn't have money for it.
That's a sweet combination.
(29:38):
It is, pastries and coffins.
So, like, the van came with acoffin and then he was placed in
the coffin with all, like, allthe women, like, were folding
his, like, sets of undies andsocks and his favourite clothes
and cigarettes and bottles ofrakia, which is, like, this
alcohol
Lo Carmen (29:57):
that they have.
For the afterlife, inside hiscoffin.
Sarah Bedak (30:00):
Yeah, but so practical, matter of fact,
folding his undies in little,you know...
And then, yeah, and then he waslaid on top of that, all these
things.
So that's saying you
Lo Carmen (30:11):
can't take it with you when you go.
It's
Sarah Bedak (30:13):
not right.
Absolutely not.
Because you can't.
Yeah.
There's a rich Romani peoplethat have, like, rooms built for
them with everything.
Their car, their, like, youknow.
Lo Carmen (30:25):
Wow.
Sarah Bedak (30:26):
Versace room.
Hilarious.
Anyway, so that was all.
in there and then for the dayeveryone yeah just the community
family friends came
Lo Carmen (30:36):
to the house or did you follow the body to a
ceremony
Sarah Bedak (30:41):
yeah so for the 24 hours there's people around and
then um yeah and then he's takenout of the house and there's a
brass band that play as theytake the body out you don't
normally you don't have musicfor a while, but the music comes
as the body comes out of thehouse and yeah, and then into
(31:03):
the pastry van and yeah, likewailing and Matt, our sax
player, who came especially formusic and then this happened.
So then he's in this otherworld of like, all right.
Lo Carmen (31:18):
Now I'm playing funeral music.
Sarah Bedak (31:19):
Yeah, or yeah, we weren't allowed to listen to
music for the whole time he wasthere.
But he, lots of people werefrightened of carrying the
coffin because it's like a thingof your next, lots of...
Superstitions.
Superstitions, that's the wordI'm looking for.
And so, and what they had wasthe pallbearers, the coffin
(31:43):
carriers, were each given awhite towel to wrap around the
arm that...
They carry the coffin with andthat's like a symbol of like...
Protection.
Purity and protection.
So you're not going to be next,it's all alright.
So Matt, the sax player, wasreally strong and he...
they were all really proud ofhim you know this white guy
(32:04):
coming over here and likecarrying the coffin and totally
being involved and he's got alot of respect in that community
now from that it's amazing
Lo Carmen (32:13):
sounds extraordinary
Sarah Bedak (32:14):
it was yeah so then yeah so he the body was put
into the van taken to thecemetery and then everyone sits
around the coffin the lid istaken off and there's a room and
everyone can sit around andjust mourn yeah and then he was
buried and then there's a feastthat happens on the grave so
Like
Lo Carmen (32:33):
the food is laid on top of the grave?
Sarah Bedak (32:35):
Yeah.
So there's like a picnicblanket and there's, you know,
women making, you know, they'vebrought amazing food and drinks
and there's a thing where youdrink and then you pour a bit of
the drink onto the earth whichis your sharing.
So you're sharing all the time.
You're sharing your food withthe person who's just passed.
Wow.
So beautiful.
So yeah, we had this beautifulfeast on the grave and then we
(32:58):
had another feast afterwards.
Nenna's brother hired out thishall and there was like 50
people sitting at a big longtable and we just ate and drank
and remembered him.
So complete and so, they dodeath really well.
I was so, so grateful towitness that.
(33:19):
The next day we went back foranother feast and then there's
seven days, 40 days and a yearwhere you go back and have a
feast.
And there's a whole lot ofother ritual things that happen.
But yeah, it was an incredibleexperience.
It was beautiful.
Klaus Bo (33:38):
Madagascar is amazing; in the highlands of
Madagascar, and they have thisvery special ritual called the
famadiana, which is also knownas turning of the bones, and
it's a little similar to whathappens in Indonesia.
The origin of this ritual isprobably Indonesia.
(33:58):
Madagascar is a very specialplace.
It's kind of one of the fourcorners of the world, people
say, and it's really an amazingplace.
People are so friendly.
There's been a migration fromIndonesia down to Madagascar.
There's no direct proof of it,but it seems like it's kind of
the same rituals.
And in Madagascar, it's likesomeone is dreaming one day that
(34:19):
grandpa is not doing very wellup there in the family crypt.
So they call for the wholefamily.
If you're a living somewhereelse, you have to come.
And it's the same thing as inIndonesia, in Sulawesi, Tanah
Toraja.
But then people, they arrive,the village, then they stay with
the family, and when everybodyhas arrived, they decide to go
(34:41):
to the family crypt.
And they open the crypt, andthey go down into the crypt, and
it's like there can be maybe 25bodies in there, maybe 50
bodies.
Each crypt is like for thewhole family, like the big
family, the greater family.
And then they go in there andthey actually take out, they
literally take out the deadpeople and they take them out
and they are wrapped in silk.
And then they wrap them in newsilk and they write their names
(35:06):
on them and they dance likecrazy with them.
Over their head and they'redancing and there's music and
it's really a party.
They're dancing like crazy, andit's like everybody is there.
I mean, from the villagesaround, everyone is coming, and
it's actually quite a big party.
And then when the sun goesdown, they put them back in, and
(35:28):
they close the crypt, and theygo back, and then they have to
sacrifice some animals andhaving a big meal.
Lo Carmen (35:35):
Wow.
That must be extraordinary towitness.
Klaus Bo (35:38):
It's amazing, and it's an amazing belief because they
think that the ancestors, theyare the only connection to the
gods.
Oh, so
Lo Carmen (35:48):
they're like a through line.
Klaus Bo (35:49):
Yes, and that's the only way you can talk to the
gods.
It's through the ancestors.
Lo Carmen (35:54):
When Klaus travels to these places, he doesn't just
pass through.
He spends at least a month,sometimes three months, living
in the villages alongsideeverybody else.
Eating what they eat,travelling how they travel, they
very much take him in as partof the family and make him feel
very welcome.
(36:14):
So he really gets an amazinginsight into what's going on.
According to Malagasy Beliefs,Man is not made of earth, but of
(36:53):
the ancestral bodies.
And according to faith, theancestors have not left the
world of the living before theirbodies are completely
decomposed.
Until then, it's possible tocommunicate with the dead, who
are treated with great respectand love at the famadihana.
During the ritual, the familiesthank their ancestors and tell
(37:13):
them how it goes in the world ofthe living.
The ancestors are also askedfor good health or a good
harvest.
This ritual is held everyseventh year in the highlands of
Madagascar.
The family graves are opened,the dead are carried out in the
open where they are re-wrappedin new silk and then the
families dance around the gravewith their ancestors held above
(37:38):
their heads.
Huge groups of people passingthese silk-wrapped, decomposing
bodies, skeletons, above theirheads before they are reburied
together in a big crypt.
It's just really quitemagnificent.
And the ritual is actually indanger due to growing poverty
(37:58):
and the escalating cost of silk,outbreaks of plague, and
opposition from the Protestantchurch that reject the ritual.
whereas the Catholic Churchperceives the ritual as a
cultural tradition and is moreaccepting of it.
And you've been to Varanasitoo, right?
Klaus Bo (38:16):
I spent some weeks there.
The
Lo Carmen (38:17):
body's been burnt on the...
Yeah,
Klaus Bo (38:20):
that's like an open crematorium.
They burn in Varanasi atManikanika Ghat.
They burn around 200 peopleevery day.
But it's a very importantritual.
Fire is cleansing the body andwater from the Ganges is
cleansing water.
And then you have Varanasi asthe holiest city in Hinduism.
And the thing is that if youare cremated in Varanasi or if
(38:45):
you're cremated somewhere elseand you're the ashes are thrown
into Ganges in Varanasi, and theright rituals are performed
well, then you can actuallyleave this eternal cycle of life
and death and become part of,you know, achieve moksha, they
call it, so you become part ofthe divine.
Lo Carmen (39:06):
You get to escape the rat race.
Klaus Bo (39:07):
Exactly.
Lo Carmen (39:10):
A very dear member of our chosen family was deeply
devoted to the Krishna faith Shespent a lot of time in India
and wanted nothing more than tobe returned to the Ganges after
her physical death.
Her beloved roommate made ither mission to see that her
wishes were fulfilled,travelling alone on the epic
(39:30):
journey from Australia to Indiato scatter the ashes in the
river to ensure her friendachieved Moksha.
the transcendental liberationfrom the material world of
suffering, limitations and thecycle of birth and death into a
merging with the divine.
It makes me so grateful thatshe was able to give our friend
(39:54):
the gift of that ultimatetranscendent state.
I do hope I've expressed itproperly.
Obviously, it's a complex setof beliefs.
My friend and former schoolteacher, Jane, who we heard from
in episode 3, also made apilgrimage to the Ganges with
her husband Mark's ashes.
(40:14):
Although he'd been sick for awhile, they hadn't discussed
what he would like to happenafter he went, so she just had
to do what she thought was bestand what would make him
happiest.
She had already given him anamazing celebratory service in
Sydney that combined church,jazz and the Maori haka.
But then when her daughterHolly and some friends were
(40:36):
going to India for a musicfestival soon after, she felt
compelled to join them and totake his ashes to the Ganges.
Jane Skinner (40:43):
It was typical of us not to talk about it.
We didn't talk about things,you know, deep and meaningful
things like that very much.
We just went ahead and got onwith living.
Yeah.
was cheerful and positive youknow right till the end and he
died on the 23rd of December andit just happened that Holly was
(41:04):
going to India in the followingFebruary, I obviously wasn't
planning to go because i didn'tknow what state Mark would be in
but when he died, she said youmust come with us you know to
the music festival and they werealso going to Varanasi so the
idea of having a ceremony on theGanges, you know, occurred to
(41:24):
me then.
He wasn't a Buddhist, but hewas very much a failed Catholic
and very interested in Buddhism,Hinduism and, you know, other
philosophies.
And Varanasi is a very, very,very spiritual place.
And we stayed in a little guesthouse on the river, on the
Ganges.
(41:45):
And every morning and everynight we would, we had a...
gorgeous young boatman who usedto pick us up and just row us
up the river and then float backdown the river at the end of
the evening.
And you'd see day and night theceremony of the burning the
bodies on the side of theGanges.
Lo Carmen (42:05):
So is there like one funeral pyre or a lot?
Jane Skinner (42:09):
There are two sites, one main one, and there
would be maybe six burningpeople at the same time, burning
bodies at the same time.
And they bring the bodies, theywrap them all up in gold and
they bring them down.
And there's been obviouslyother ceremonies that have
happened before, but they bringthem down, the men, to the gat
(42:34):
and it's very expensive to buythe firewood so only the wealthy
get burned there the lesswealthy have to go to gas
burning.
Varanasi is the city wherepeople go to die because people
believe that if you die inVaranasi you escape the cycle of
life you don't get reincarnatedso you go straight to heaven
(42:57):
basically.
So during that holiday, Marksaid to me, I want to walk
through the burning gat, whichwas a bit horrifying to me, but
we did, which was prettyconfronting, you know, but also.
Very ordinary.
And that's what happens, youknow, it becomes ordinary.
(43:19):
And the faster you burn, youknow, the quicker you're going
to go to heaven, which of courseis just one way of saying it'll
be cheaper because you won'tneed any more wood.
But, you know, there's...
All the things, all thefunctions are happening.
There's cows walking through itand dogs and, you know, people
pulling, trying to find gold.
So you see the cycle
(43:40):
So you see the cycle of life up close.
Absolutely, up close.
Very, very real when a body isburning beside you and you see
the foot, you know, sticking outthe bottom.
So he wanted to walk throughand we did that.
And is it true that everyonewashes their face in there in
the morning and then goes to thebathroom in there and then
there's...
bodies floating by and they getfully into the river and wash.
(44:01):
The river is everything.
The river is life and death.
So we all went out on a boatand My grandchildren and others
in Sydney had written things tobe read out.
And so everybody read somethingout from the grandchildren.
(44:24):
And we had singing and weburned 108 candles.
It's a Hindu.
It's a special number of aHindu, and I should have looked
it up.
Anyway, 108 candles, which welit and put on the Ganges.
So you're on the boat.
So we're on the boat.
There's a group of you and anIndian guide there.
(44:45):
An Indian person that dealswith...
Yeah, he was basically justsinging, I think.
But he also sort of directedwhat we should do.
But it was all a bit of amystery, I have to tell you.
Right.
And then are you responsiblefor doing the scattering?
Yes.
And so you just decide whenyourself...
(45:06):
No, it was all he, yeah, theyall did directly.
Now we'll light the candles andnow you sprinkle the ashes.
But the horrifying thing, ofcourse, was that I had put the
box, as you saw, it was a sortof an oblong box, in one of his
shoe bags, which was a BrunoMali or something bag that I had
(45:27):
put it in.
And so we took the box out.
Then we couldn't get theletter.
While you were on the boat.
While we were on the boat.
There was a lot of difficultyin finding a screwdriver or
something to get it in.
to get the stopper out, whichwas, of course...
Were you laughing or was itstressful?
It was tricky.
And then the man who wasdirecting me took the box and
(45:50):
the bag and just said, do youstow them in too?
They have to go in the rivertoo.
I keep thinking of this BrunoMali bag floating down the
river.
No doubt.
It was found and repurposed andmade somebody very happy.
So, you know, the actual...
ceremony of it was specialbecause we had been on the river
(46:14):
so many times and we had donethis and we had lit candles and
you know so I guess and it's avery and it's a very spiritual
place
Klaus Bo (46:25):
same and what I recently found out I was
listening to an interview I didin Haiti with a man called Max
Beauvoir he's unfortunately deadnow he was the head of voodoo,
pope of voodoo, he calledhimself, and he explained about
the voodoo tradition that it'sthe same thing that you are
reincarnated, but in the Haitianvoodoo, you're reincarnated 16
(46:47):
times, eight times as a womanand eight times as a man.
Lo Carmen (46:51):
Wow, how intriguing.
Klaus Bo (46:52):
Yes.
The 17th time, you are actuallymelting into the divine, you're
becoming part of the divine aswell, like in Hinduism.
Lo Carmen (47:03):
That's interesting.
In astrology, there's a similarkind of belief of you work your
way through the different starsigns until you finally come
back as a Piscean, which is whatI know.
And then that's your last one,apparently.
And if you want to get itright, then that's it.
You're allowed to...
(47:23):
So
Klaus Bo (47:25):
this is your last time here?
Lo Carmen (47:29):
Well, not necessarily, because I might be
messing it up, so I might haveto come back as a Piscean
multiple times. In fact, that'shighly likely.
Klaus Bo (47:40):
But in the Haitian voodoo, the whole purpose of
living is likegathering knowledge.
Lo Carmen (47:47):
How beautiful.
Klaus Bo (47:49):
Yes, and it's like, he said a quite interesting thing,
Max Beauvoir, he said, like,yeah, you know, a thief or
people who are behaving bad,they're maybe only in their
first or second or third life.
And that's why they don't knowhow to behave well.
But then they get educated andthey learn and then they are
reborn and they will slowly,slowly
Lo Carmen (48:12):
Right.
Slowly learn and become
Klaus Bo (48:14):
teachers.
Yeah.
Or priests.
It
Lo Carmen (48:18):
kind of changes everything if you look at the
world today.
Like that, doesn't it?
I think so.
It takes away judgment andpossibly even fear.
I'm not sure about that, butit's only judgment if you just
think about everyone being in aprocess of becoming better.
Klaus Bo (48:41):
Yeah, everybody's trying to learn all the time.
So it's a very nice way to lookat the world,
Lo Carmen (48:48):
I think,
Klaus Bo (48:49):
and look at humanity.
Lo Carmen (48:51):
I can only imagine
Klaus Bo (48:52):
that
Lo Carmen (48:53):
spending so much time around death rituals and
customs has got to give you suchan incredible overview of
humanity.
Klaus Bo (49:02):
Yeah, it is really interesting.
Lo Carmen (49:24):
When you first started your photography, your
death photography, did it seemlike it might just be a passing
interest, or did you feelimmediately like it would be a
calling?
Klaus Bo (49:34):
I was actually, I started thinking about this idea
eight years before I starteddoing it.
Lo Carmen (49:42):
Really?
Klaus Bo (49:42):
Yes.
I went to a Muslim ceremonyhere in Denmark, in Copenhagen,
and there was this old man, hedied, And I was doing a
documentary about the mosque.
There's a very big mosque, butthey live like a very hidden
life.
They don't make a big fussabout it.
(50:03):
And then this guy died, and Iasked if I could come and take
pictures of the ceremonies.
He was going to be sent back toPakistan to be buried there.
And then I went, and it's in2002, and then There was a lot
of people coming because he wasapparently a very loved man.
So the mosque was full and thenI caught this picture in the
(50:27):
middle of it all with a smallyoung boy looking into the
coffin.
And it was like a window in thecoffin.
And it was like he was lookingat it with no fear.
He was just curious.
He was just looking into thiscoffin and wow.
And I started thinking when Icame back home.
I'd never seen a dead personbefore that.
before this guy and I came homeand I started thinking about
(50:49):
how big a taboo death is for ushere in Denmark or worse at that
time.
It's developing slowly and it'schanging a bit but very slowly.
And then I thought about thatfor a while and then I had this
very dear friend of mine whodied and suddenly I found myself
(51:09):
in my own home alone for sixweeks or something like that.
Nobody called me, nobody talkedto me.
You know, it was really weird.
Lo Carmen (51:17):
But because you were grieving and people didn't want
to disturb you?
Klaus Bo (51:22):
Yeah, I think it's like...
Lo Carmen (51:25):
So people were trying to be respectful, but...
Yeah,
Klaus Bo (51:27):
in the wrong way.
Lo Carmen (51:30):
You
Klaus Bo (51:31):
were
Lo Carmen (51:31):
desperate for hugs and friends.
Klaus Bo (51:34):
Yeah, just talking about her, you know.
And...
Then I went to Greenland.
I was actually going there on ajourney with the Danish queen
and her husband.
They visited Greenland, andthen they were going to land in
Uppernivik, which is north ofthe Arctic Circle.
(51:57):
And I was up there with thewhole group of Danish press
photographers.
And then she couldn't landbecause of bad weather, so I
went to the cemetery.
And I found this, like,dreaming.
It was amazing.
It was out of this world, thiscemetery.
And I took some pictures, andthen I really started thinking,
there's something in thiscemetery.
story or what you would callit.
(52:18):
There's something in studyingit because it's been studied a
lot by anthropologists,ethnologists and other, you
know, on a university level, butthey never take pictures.
No, it's
Lo Carmen (52:33):
true.
I've been researching a lot andI see the same pictures used
over and over and they oftenappear very old too.
I did see a lot of Victoriandeath photos where often it was
the only photograph they'd haveof the family was when a child
would die and they would want tocommemorate thechild.
(52:56):
Yeah, we don't do that anymore.
We used to do that here inDenmark as well, but you don't
do it anymore.
Peter Head (53:01):
Right.
Klaus Bo (53:01):
But around in the world, it's quite normal to have
pictures taken with the dead.
That's the thing when you workwith a taboo, you always have
to, you always confront yourselfwith it all the time.
But, you know, around theworld, they're just, come on,
take, my picture with my deadgrandma or whatever.
And after you've done that, nowit's your turn.
I have pictures from all overthe world where I'm part of
(53:25):
these photography sessions.
Where
Lo Carmen (53:27):
you're part of these family
Klaus Bo (53:28):
photos.
And the family photos, yeah,that's quite amazing.
Lo Carmen (53:37):
So have you got plans for yourself?
Klaus Bo (53:40):
Well, I don't know.
I think I would just have, Iwould tell people to make a huge
party, celebrate, get drunk andsmoke weed and, you know, have
a good time.
And then I would like to belike, have one part of each of
the rituals I have photographedto be part of this, my own
(54:03):
funeral.
In a symbolic way, maybe, but,you know, yeah.
But then I would say I thinkit's up to my family what they
want to do with me and my ashesor my body or whatever.
If they need a place where theycan go, fine with me.
I think they should have thatif they want that.
I'm not like, oh, I don't wanta gravestone.
I don't want to be buried inthe soil.
(54:25):
I don't mind.
I mean, it's up to the people Ileave behind, I think.
Lo Carmen (54:30):
Yes, because you won't really care.
Klaus Bo (54:32):
Yeah, exactly.
Or maybe I will.
I don't know.
Maybe you will.
Lo Carmen (54:36):
Who knows?
Maybe you'll be looking downfrom that cloud with you.
Yeah.
Oh, no, not there.
Klaus Bo (54:41):
Yeah.
The checklist is over there.
Yeah.
I don't want to lie next tohim.
Can you move me?
Yeah, please.
Lo Carmen (55:01):
It's very clear to me, after all we've heard about
this episode, is that ritualsare a powerful way to navigate
death, to go deep with it and tofind ways of accepting and
understanding the cycles ofdeath and living.
From what I can tell, making upour own rituals or
participating in rituals thataren't from our own culture can
(55:23):
be just as spiritual andsatisfying an experience.
All that matters is our ownbelief and the ability to give
ourselves over to the process.
And let's not forget, food andmusic seem to play a very
important part in it all too.
I would love to hear yourthoughts on this.
You can find me online atlowcarmen.substack.com I go
(55:49):
deeper on the episodes withadded extras in my newsletter
there and we can discussfurther.
Thank you to Klaus Bowe, SarahBiedak and Jane Skinner for
talking with me.
You can and should find Klaus'sincredible body of work at
deadandaliveproject.com.
We heard excerpts from EmmaSwift's new song, The
(56:14):
Resurrection Game.
My song, Everyone You EverKnew, is coming back to haunt
you.
And soon two more from LoloLovina.
Death Is Not The End thememusic was composed, performed
and recorded by Peter Head.
He also created much of theincidental music, along with
(56:34):
selections from the Descript andMuseOpen music libraries.
Kora Dream by Silaba, Kali Doliby Pawan Krishna were courtesy
of Epidemic Sound.
Death Is Not The End is a BlackTambourine Productions
production, created, written andedited by me, your host, Lo
(56:55):
Carmen.
If you enjoyed today's episode,please do rate and leave a
little review wherever youlisten to podcasts.
I'm entirely independent and itreally helps me to find
listeners for the show.
Thanks for being here with meand see you on the other side.
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