June 7, 2025 • 39 mins
In this episode, your host Lo Carmen explores the ecological impacts of death care and eco friendly alternatives, conversing with Anna Swenson, representative of Recompose, a green funeral home specialising in human composting.
Photographer Bleddyn Butcher shares his experience of his sister's natural burial.
We learn about water cremation and hear from John Humphreys who is the innovator behind Aquamation at Environmentally Friendly Cremations..
Anna mentions the book 'From Here to Eternity' by death educator Caitlin Doughty, you can find it here on Caitlin's website.
Thank you to Adam Young for making his live porch version of 'Wildflowers', originally recorded by Tom Petty.
Thank you to Stu Thomas for permission to use his version of 'We All Make The Little Flowers Grow' from his album Stu Plays Lee.
Original 'Death is Not the End' theme music composed, performed & recorded by Peter Head.
'Death Is Not The End' sting, composed by Bob Dylan, performed & recorded by Peter Head
Some incidental music thanks to Descript music library.
Répertoire licensed by APRA AMCOS.
Thank you to Craig Waddell for permission to feature his artwork '. Surrounded By Your Beauty' for 'Death Is Not The End'. See more of his work here.
'Death Is Not The End' created and recorded by Lo Carmen
This episode edited by Aden Young and Lo Carmen
Black Tambourine Productions ©2025
Visit Lo Carmen's Loose Connections here: https://locarmen.substack.com/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Music - Peter Head (00:00):
Just remember that death is not the
end.
Lo Carmen (00:13):
The brilliant Norwegian artist Edvard Munch
famously wrote these words, Frommy rotting body, flowers shall
grow, and I am in them, and thatis eternity.
The genius pop artists wean,opined, push the little daisies
(00:35):
and make them grow up.
But singer-songwriter Tom Waitsprobably put it the most
eloquently, as usual, when hesung these words.
Yeah, we're all gonna be justdirt in the ground.
Becoming part of the greatcycle of life and death and
(00:59):
birth and rebirth, returning ourbodies to the earth, it's part
of the natural order andsomething that we can all
understand.
But the truth is in Westernculture, most of us simply
choose between standard burialor cremation and neither choice
is actually as eco-friendly aswe might think.
(01:21):
The carbon footprints of thedead...
are heavy.
Traditional caskets are madefrom steel, copper, bronze or
wood, all treated with toxicchemicals which use around 4
million acres of forestsannually.
They're decorated with metaltrimmings that can take hundreds
(01:43):
of years to break down.
Many cemeteries will requirethat you also purchase a burial
vault or a liner so that thegrave doesn't collapse.
These are also made fromconcrete, plastic or steel.
The manufacturing process for asteel coffin produces four
times the carbon dioxide that'sreleased in a typical cremation.
(02:05):
Toxic embalming fluids leachinto the soil via burials.
Each flame cremation producesgreenhouse gas emissions
comparable to the monthly energyconsumption of the average
home.
They also release toxicmaterials such as mercury into
the atmosphere.
And despite internet threadsfull of people stating their
(02:27):
desire to be buried raw in theground without a coffin or the
use of embalming fluids,allowing their bodies to
decompose naturally in the soil,the actual reality of making
that happen is quite complex anddifficult.
Dependent upon where you live,whether there's natural burial
grounds available near you,Being buried on private land
(02:48):
requires quite complicatedpermissions from local councils,
the director of public health,the landowner.
Sometimes you even have to payto turn the private land into
land designated for use as acemetery.
We're actually running out ofspaces to bury our dead in urban
areas.
Some cemeteries are expected tobe full within the next 10
(03:10):
years, which is driving costsway up.
Many of these cemeteries areutilising formerly unused areas
to create new burial spots.
Some might say the death careindustry is a bit of a dumpster
fire.
The great news is that thereare innovators and disruptors
(03:30):
out there reimagining the deathcare industry and helping to
create and design a much neededand wanted cleaner, greener way
forward.
It's pretty exciting.
Today we're going to hear fromAnna Swenson, who is a
representative from Recompose,which has invented a form of
(03:52):
human composting.
Sounds crazy, but...
Why don't I let Anna explainit?
Recompose/Anna Swenson (03:58):
So Recompose is an ecological death
care provider and funeral homebased in Seattle, Washington.
We are the first full-servicefuneral home in the world to
offer the process of naturalorganic reduction, which is the
gentle transformation of humanbodies into soil.
It's also sometimes calledhuman composting.
Our process works when we placeeach body into what we call a
(04:23):
vessel.
It's indoors.
It's about a meter high and twometers long.
It's made out of steel so thesevessels are reusable and we
place each body into the vesselwith about three cubic meters of
plant material.
We use wood chips, alfalfa andstraw.
Lo Carmen (04:42):
I am just going to pop in here and describe the
facilities which I've only seenin photographs and videos but
They are really quiteastoundingly beautiful, and more
than a little high-tech sciencefiction-like.
There's a honeycombed wall ofwhite steel vessels, which is
where the bodies go, kind oflike a Japanese capsule hotel.
(05:04):
At Recompose, they joke aroundcalling it the Hotel for the
Dead.
Founder and CEO Katrina Spade.
explains that she was strivingfor a blend of ritual science
and technology with thepremises.
She was an architecture studentoriginally, and she says that
she wanted to make a spacesomewhere between a spaceship
(05:27):
and the forest floor.
And she really has attained herdream.
Everything is surgically cleanand white, but there are indoor
trees and plants everywhere,along with beautiful photographs
of plants.
It has the most zen, calm,efficient vibe and looks safe
and inviting and like it wouldsmell woodsy and fresh.
(05:49):
Spade was inspired by homefunerals that she witnessed and
natural burials.
She loved the rituals that sheobserved and tried to recreate
that with Recompose.
They have a process called thelaying in, which is the
(06:10):
ceremonial farewell to the bodybefore the vessel enters the
honeycombed wall.
During the laying in process,the dead are cocooned in bright
organic cotton shrouds andsurrounded by wood chips, straw
and alfalfa.
It looks cosy and beautiful,almost like something you would
(06:32):
see in a florist.
Recompose/Anna Swenson (06:34):
actually the microbes that naturally
occur on our bodies and in thatplant material that power the
transformation into soil.
They create heat of over 131degrees Fahrenheit And I did not
look up what the Celsius is,but it's pretty warm.
And that heat that's created iswhat transforms the body into
(06:55):
soil.
And the change takes place on amolecular level.
So that heat transforms thebones.
It breaks down anypharmaceuticals that are in the
body, any pathogens.
And the body remains in thevessel for 30 days.
And then we remove the soilfrom the vessel, screen for
non-organics like hip implants.
We test it.
(07:16):
it for safety and then it curesand dries for about two to four
more weeks.
So the time between when thebody goes into the vessel and
when the soil is ready to goback to the family is between
six and eight weeks.
It creates about a cubic meterof soil, and families can either
take it home and use it ontheir lawns or gardens if they
(07:38):
want, or we have a forest thatfolks can donate it to if they'd
rather spend eternity in aforest.
So that's what I've chosen formy soil, is to go to Bell's
Mountain.
And sometimes when I'm having areally rough day, I'm like, you
know what?
Music - Adam Young (08:03):
You belong somewhere close to me Far away
(08:24):
from your trouble and worriesYou belong somewhere you feel
free You belong somewhere youfeel free
Recompose/Anna Swenson (08:39):
So our founder and CEO, Katrina Spade,
first had the idea for thisprocess when she was getting her
master's degree in architecturein about 2014.
She's a person who cares aboutthe environment.
She makes eco-consciouschoices.
And she wasn't really feelinglike conventional burial or
cremation were really what shewanted for herself.
(08:59):
And around this time, as shewas thinking about this, she had
a friend call her and say, youknow, farmers in the U.S.
have been recycling livestockusing composting practices for
many decades.
It's well-studied soil science.
And that's how Katrina got theidea to try and do it for
humans.
Most folks understand thatconventional burial in a
(09:22):
cemetery with a concrete vaultand a hardwood casket and
embalming, like most people arehip to the fact that that is
environmentally harmful.
But a lot of those folks thinkthat cremation is just like the
easier choice.
It's green.
It's not a lot of work for yourpeople and just choose that and
it's done.
However, the environmentalimpact of cremation and
(09:45):
conventional burial are aboutthe same.
And that's because of thefossil gas required to create
the heat that is created in thecrematory retort.
So once people learn that, thenthey're open to hearing about
the fact that for every personwho chooses the recompose
process over conventional burialor cremation, one metric ton of
(10:05):
carbon dioxide is saved fromentering the environment.
So it really is an impactfulchoice.
Lo Carmen (10:11):
How long does a body take to decompose naturally?
Recompose/Anna Swenson (10:14):
Yeah, so sometimes people ask me, like,
wouldn't this human compostingprocess take place on the forest
floor naturally, and it would.
It just takes a lot longer.
It really depends on conditionslike moisture, what the makeup
of the soil is, what thetemperature is.
A
Lo Carmen (10:29):
lot of people find the idea very confronting at
first and then when they learnmore about it they tend to fall
in love with it.
Recompose/Anna Swenson (10:40):
So the laying in is the name that we
use for the ceremony and part ofit is a literal laying in where
we lay the body into the vesselwith the plant material and
depending on the family somefamilies elect not to watch that
and our staff does it.
We do try to be extrarespectful.
We always say a littlesomething about who the person
(11:02):
was, and we'll ask the family ifthere's any music that they
want us to play while we'redoing this work.
We get a lot of Celine Dion,which is, you know, fun.
Lo Carmen (11:11):
Is it My Heart Will Go On?
Recompose/Anna Swenson (11:13):
There was one gentleman early on who
chose that song, and thenthere's another one.
There's like a duet that shehas with Andrea Bocelli that a
couple people have chosen.
Yeah, and then, you know,there's like some classical
music.
One gentleman men chose sublimewhich was a fun change amazing
yeah it can really be a creationof what who the person was and
(11:37):
what their family finds
Lo Carmen (11:43):
the thing that seems most beautiful about it is that
life comes out of death that itliterally means that death is
not the end.
Have there been many peoplebesides the Catholic Church that
have been anti what you'redoing?
Recompose/Anna Swenson (12:00):
You know, we're lucky that most
people are very curious at thevery least, even if they decide
that it's ultimately not forthem, they sort of find it
intriguing.
We don't have a whole lot ofHaters or you know people who
are just like really vehementlyopposed to this and I think a
(12:22):
couple reasons for that one isthat We've done a lot of
education to make peopleunderstand that this is
something that we've researchedand there is science behind it
and we can prove that it's safe.
So people don't usually have agreat experience with the
conventional funeral industry.
At least here in the US, it hasa reputation for sort of not
(12:43):
being the most transparent andnot being the most supportive.
So people like that Recomposeis changing that.
Sometimes I really go lookingfor people who are opposed to
what we're doing, and somepeople are like, oh, they're
going to make us grow food withit and then eat it, and we'll be
eating our relatives.
And we're like, no, we do notencourage you to grow food with
(13:04):
this soil.
It's just a choice that youdon't have to make.
Lo Carmen (13:12):
That's not a bad idea, though, really, is it?
The position of the CatholicChurch is...
A little confusing.
Archbishop Michael Jackles ofIowa issued a statement in 2021
(13:36):
acknowledging the oppositionfrom some of the other bishops
who consider natural organicreduction and alkaline
hydrolysis methods offensive,disrespectful, but he personally
supported them, touting them asgreen options that the Catholic
Church ought to allow.
Dennis Paust, who's theexecutive director of the New
(13:57):
York State Catholic Conference,wrote some letters to the New
York governor where he statedthat composting does not respect
the human body as a vessel ofthe soul and said that
composting is something we as asociety associate with a
sustainable method ofeliminating organic trash that
(14:18):
otherwise ends up in landfills.
but human bodies are nothousehold waste and we do not
believe that the process meetsthe standard of reverent
treatment.
He wrote, the process that isperfectly appropriate for
returning vegetable trimmings tothe earth is not necessarily
appropriate for human bodies.
I guess each to their own.
(14:40):
Dennis.
Dennis.
Recompose/Anna Swenson (14:57):
Before we opened our facility called
The Greenhouse, we thoughtpeople would want this, but we
weren't really sure if theywould be actually open to
sending their loved one to us tobe transformed into soil, but
turns out actually a lot ofpeople are willing to and a lot
of people want to.
Lo Carmen (15:13):
Is there a particular demographic that you find is
more attracted to it or are youoften surprised?
Recompose/Anna Swenson (15:18):
Really a variety.
I don't think that there's anyone particular type of person.
Maybe a trend would be theseare folks who want to know what
happens to them when they die,like they are more introspective
and curious maybe than theaverage funeral consumer.
You know, you do have to do alittle bit of digging to figure
(15:40):
out what this is and that youwant it.
We've been over capacity sincewe opened, which is great, but
also hard because we don't wantto turn people away.
Lo Carmen (15:49):
Before you started working there, was your own
death something you hadconsidered?
Were you prepared in any way?
Recompose/Anna Swenson (15:57):
Yeah I went to a lot of family funerals
when I was younger and theywere all just like sort of
stuffy and boring and like felta little bit fake so for a long
time I was like I'm never goingto a funeral again like I don't
care these are dumb but then asI started there was a book that
I read called From Here toEternity by Caitlin Doty who's a
(16:18):
friend of Recompose and thatwas when I started thinking
about you know maybe there'sanother way to do this that
feels more like more authenticto me.
I kind of also thought I wasjust going to choose cremation
because that sounded easier butyou know I didn't really like it
but it kind of sounded like Ididn't you know I didn't want to
burden my people so that kindof sounded like the hands-off
(16:39):
thing to do so I'm actually doesbring a good sense of relief
that I have it taken care of andno one has to worry about it
and it's something that reallyis in alignment with my values.
Lo Carmen (16:50):
You know, the fact that we can take our own death
care into our own hands andpre-plan by enrolling in
something like Precompose, Ithink is really fantastic.
It's totally something that Iwould do if I could.
However, unfortunately,Recompose is currently only
(17:11):
available in the United States.
Recompose/Anna Swenson (17:15):
If folks are interested in getting this
legalized in their state, greatthing to do is to talk to your
local representatives,specifically your state senator.
That's how we've gotten intoOregon, for example.
There was like one...
community member who called hisrepresentative and was so
annoying that he was like, fine,I'll do this bill.
That's fantastic, really.
(17:35):
I love hearing about one personmaking a difference.
And so what specifically dothey say?
I think just like I want tochoose natural organic reduction
for myself, this matters to mebecause of X reason, please put
this legislation forward.
Lo Carmen (17:50):
Is aquamation and green burial, is that also
considered natural organicreduction?
Recompose/Anna Swenson (17:56):
So those are different processes that
are usually regulatedseparately.
Here in Washington, the billthat legalized natural organic
reduction also legalizedalkaline hydrolysis or water
cremation, which is great.
That's another, if anyonelistening doesn't know, that's a
process where bodies are placedin a machine with water and
(18:16):
sulfates and charge, and ittakes a few hours for the body
to be reduced to sand I thinkit's good because it uses
one-eighth the energy ofconventional burial or
cremation, so it has some of thesame environmental benefits as
natural organic reduction.
Sometimes we say folks canthink about whether they like
(18:36):
the idea of soil better, theylike the idea of water better,
sort of like gut feeling whatmatters to you.
And then green burial...
I actually don't know how thatone is regulated.
From what I understand, you canprobably establish a green
burial cemetery in most stateswithout changing the laws, but I
(18:57):
don't know for sure.
Here in the US, it varies bystate.
Like in Washington, forexample, you can't be buried on
your own land.
Unless you designate the landas a cemetery and it costs like
$20,000.
But in other states, you canjust like tell the city where
you buried a body and they don'tcare.
Wow.
Yeah, I know.
Lo Carmen (19:16):
It's a whole world, isn't it?
Recompose/Anna Swenson (19:18):
It really
Lo Carmen (19:21):
Has being around death given you any insight into
what happens after we die?
Spiritually?
Do you think that anythingremains or do you think when we
die, we're just gone?
Recompose/Anna Swenson (19:39):
Wow, what an interesting question.
I mean, for me personally, Ithink that our consciousness
returns to the collective,right?
I always say that I really wantto meet a ghost, even though I
don't really believe in ghosts.
Lo Carmen (19:56):
I'm exactly the same.
Recompose/Anna Swenson (19:58):
Yeah.
I would love to be wrong.
Working in death care hasreally given me an appreciation
for the unexplained.
When I train our new employees,I always say like part of what
recomposes is like anappreciation for the unknown.
And I came from a reallycorporate background that had no
appreciation for the unknown.
(20:19):
So it, it, It is comforting andkind of validating to realize
that I don't have all theanswers and no one does.
It's been great to be part of amovement of people thinking
more consciously about what theywant to be.
There's something empoweringabout dying as you've lived and
(20:39):
having an empowered choice.
Lo Carmen (20:41):
Yeah, absolutely.
(21:10):
If you want me again, look forme under your boot soles.
Wise words there from WaltWhitman.
After learning about Recomposewith Anna, I found myself really
curious about the other kindsof natural organic reduction and
(21:30):
environmentally consciousoptions that are available.
According to the US-basedNational Funeral Directors
Association, I'm Not Alone, In2022, over 60% of people that
were surveyed reported that theywould be interested in green
funeral options.
In America, natural burial islegal in all 50 states, with
(21:54):
variations on rules, regulationsand availability.
There's around 220 naturalburial sites there.
There's about 270 in the UK,where it's more popular, and
around 15 sites in Australia.
Some of them attach to regularcemeteries.
There's an area that can beused strictly for natural
(22:18):
burial.
Others are more particular.
Germany has what they callsanctuary or cinerary forests,
which allows for the burial ofurns, not bodies.
but they're also very beautifuland now France is adopting that
idea also and there's a coupleof cinerary forests starting
(22:42):
there where residents can beburied free of charge without
flowers, wreaths or headstones.
I remembered my friend BleddynButcher, a wonderful
photographer, mentioning thathis sister had chosen a natural
burial for herself and howspecial it was.
Bleddyn Butcher (23:02):
She figured after much research and
discussion with her doctors thatif she went off chemo she'd
probably have four to six weeksclear with her husband and her
family and then after that she'dbegin the process of dying and
she didn't She did it with cleareyes and knowledge and she just
(23:26):
wanted to have some time withher family and she knew she was
going to die anyway and itdidn't matter to her whether it
was in three months.
without chemotherapy or in ninemonths with chemotherapy.
It was just, I want to havesome clear blue water or
(23:47):
whatever you want to call it.
So that's what she did.
And in that period, it's been alot of time driving around
Perth and its environs with herhusband.
They were doing, they weretalking about what he would do
and what the family would doafter she was gone, how she
would like to be remembered.
And and they explored thepossibilities and the one that
(24:10):
she decided was she had nointerest in having a memorial, a
headstone, but she wasattracted to the idea that there
would be a place that herfamily could come and visit her
or think about her but notactually have to look at a
headstone or a memorial tablet.
(24:32):
So she found this place.
It's a cemetery but it'srelatively natural.
There's a huge mob of kangaroosthere and she chose to have an
unmarked grave.
Lo Carmen (24:44):
So do you have coordinates to find her?
Bleddyn Butcher (24:46):
Well, I carried the coffin so I know where it
is and I know exactly where itis because I I've been back
there a number of times withmostly with my mother but also
alone And I figured out a wayto...
I know exactly where the graveis.
(25:07):
There's a root and there's afork in the tree and you start
lining up.
But Mum keeps complaining abouthow she's forgotten where the
grave actually is, but Ihaven't.
She kind of liked the idea, Ithink, that when people...
made the formal decision tosort of visit her grave, that
(25:33):
they would also effectively becommuting with nature.
Because there wasn't a monumentto worship, it was just that
you were in the place where herbody was buried.
And that's actually a veryeffective decision.
I don't know about the wordspiritual, but there's something
about it that's quite moving.
Lo Carmen (25:54):
So was kind of a gift?
Bleddyn Butcher (25:56):
Yeah.
Lo Carmen (25:56):
To you in some way.
Bleddyn Butcher (25:57):
Oh, yeah, it was.
Yeah.
My mother responded to it byimmediately saying that she
wanted to be buried in the sameway, in the same place and
alongside and has booked thespace.
Lo Carmen (26:10):
Amazing.
Was your sister in acompostable coffin?
Bleddyn Butcher (26:15):
Yeah.
Yeah, that was the other thing.
It's a wicker coffin.
Lo Carmen (26:18):
Wicker, okay.
So did she choose that herself?
Bleddyn Butcher (26:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that she quite...
I didn't actually discuss wormswith her, but when I was
talking with her about it, shewas quite happy to be dust to
dust.
She was quite happy with that.
The idea that the molecules ofher body would just be returned
(26:42):
to the earth.
She quite liked that idea.
And I like it too.
I like the way that she wasn'tputting any impediment like a
jar of coffin.
in between it's a wicker coffinso you could see her wrapped
body when you were carrying thecoffin so she was
Lo Carmen (27:02):
in a shroud but
Bleddyn Butcher (27:03):
there was something chrysalis like as
opposed to something as opposedto like a sealed box there was
something transformative abouther coffin the wicker coffin
because it's sort of much morelike a chrysalis, as I say.
And so you're aware that, well,to me, the metaphor was that
(27:27):
she was embarking upon a changeof state.
And that was quite moving.
The fact that she was not onlyreconciled to that, but she
embraced it.
And it wasn't anyone else'sdecision except hers.
which I liked as well becausequite often people don't make
(27:48):
plans for that sort of thing.
Lo Carmen (27:50):
That's right.
And then you end up feelinglike, oh, I don't know that they
would have wanted this.
Yeah.
Bleddyn Butcher (27:56):
So part of what was pleasing is that that was
her decision.
And another part is that itseems to have been a very good
decision.
You know, she did explore...
actually even more anonymoussolutions.
Like if somebody owns land, youare allowed to bury people with
permission.
(28:16):
But she decided against that.
She decided that probably thesurviving members of the family
would want to have somewhere togo.
I know that I appreciate it,and I think my mother does.
The ritual element, nothinghappens When we go up there, no
(28:37):
one takes flowers or anything.
They actually suggest that youshouldn't, but apparently the
kangaroos like flowers quite alot anyway.
They actually eat them.
Part of the ritual of theburial that was so moving is
that as traditionally you throwa handful of dirt onto the
(28:59):
coffin, and a flower or flowers.
When you picked up the handfulof dirt, which was just great,
because I didn't go from thepile that was dug up, I just
picked my handful up from thegravesite.
and threw it onto the coffin.
What was kind of moving is thatthe dirt filtered through the
(29:23):
coffin onto the shroud.
So you're actually initiatingthe process of transformation
yourself.
And if, I mean, I was one ofthe last people to leave the
gravesite and made sure thatthere was quite a lot, that the
grave digger didn't just comealong and...
push the dirt in with a digger,made sure that there was
(29:49):
actually a veil of dirt over thewhole thing so that we'd
actually initiated the process.
I don't know whether anyoneelse was thinking the same way
as me, but that's what I wasthinking.
It was very moving and it wasgood to hold it in the open air.
It was the ambient sounds.
Everyone was gathered outside.
(30:10):
It was very purposeful and verymeaningful.
Lo Carmen (30:13):
And was she someone that was really environmentally
conscious?
Was that part of what promptedit?
Or was it more thephilosophical and the
meaningfulness of it?
Bleddyn Butcher (30:23):
I think it's a mixture of the two.
It was explicitly, she wasquite explicit about the lack of
impact on the environment.
But I think she was, if we cancall it spiritual, I think her
idea of commuting with naturewas uppermost.
But that's sort of the flipside of the same impulse.
(30:45):
And I think the generositycomes in finding somewhere
meaningful.
You can actually be put into agrave which has got an allocated
space in sort of like a rigidgrid up there and there is an
area where they have gravestonesas well.
So she whittled the optionsdown into the most anonymous of
(31:12):
those.
It wasn't about a monument,it's about she understood that
people would remember her andwould want somewhere special.
it was a good thought it's kindof remarkable that she should
use her remaining time in that
Lo Carmen (31:40):
well that's it from me today i really enjoyed
learning about theseenvironmentally friendly
efficient and effectivealternatives for disposing of
our earthly remains I will leaveinformation on how to contact
them in the show notes.
But if you just want to do aquick Google right here, right
(32:04):
now, recompose.life.
So if you want to come and findme at locarmen.substack.com If
(32:25):
you subscribe and become part ofthe community, which you can do
for free, it doesn't cost athing.
That way we can just chat moreabout all of these options and
you can share any knowledge orstories that you have.
I, and I'm sure others, wouldlove to be talking together
about all of this.
(32:45):
There's so much to talk about.
Thank you so much for joiningme on Death Is Not The End.
See you next time.
Music - Peter Head (32:57):
Death Is
Lo Carmen (33:06):
Not The End is produced by Black Tambourine
Productions.
Recorded and written by me, LoCarmen, on Gadigal land that was
never ceded.
Peter Head composed thebeautiful theme music.
Death is not the end
Just remember that death is not the
end.
Lo Carmen (00:13):
The brilliant Norwegian artist Edvard Munch
famously wrote these words, Frommy rotting body, flowers shall
grow, and I am in them, and thatis eternity.
The genius pop artists wean,opined, push the little daisies
(00:35):
and make them grow up.
But singer-songwriter Tom Waitsprobably put it the most
eloquently, as usual, when hesung these words.
Yeah, we're all gonna be justdirt in the ground.
Becoming part of the greatcycle of life and death and
(00:59):
birth and rebirth, returning ourbodies to the earth, it's part
of the natural order andsomething that we can all
understand.
But the truth is in Westernculture, most of us simply
choose between standard burialor cremation and neither choice
is actually as eco-friendly aswe might think.
(01:21):
The carbon footprints of thedead...
are heavy.
Traditional caskets are madefrom steel, copper, bronze or
wood, all treated with toxicchemicals which use around 4
million acres of forestsannually.
They're decorated with metaltrimmings that can take hundreds
(01:43):
of years to break down.
Many cemeteries will requirethat you also purchase a burial
vault or a liner so that thegrave doesn't collapse.
These are also made fromconcrete, plastic or steel.
The manufacturing process for asteel coffin produces four
times the carbon dioxide that'sreleased in a typical cremation.
(02:05):
Toxic embalming fluids leachinto the soil via burials.
Each flame cremation producesgreenhouse gas emissions
comparable to the monthly energyconsumption of the average
home.
They also release toxicmaterials such as mercury into
the atmosphere.
And despite internet threadsfull of people stating their
(02:27):
desire to be buried raw in theground without a coffin or the
use of embalming fluids,allowing their bodies to
decompose naturally in the soil,the actual reality of making
that happen is quite complex anddifficult.
Dependent upon where you live,whether there's natural burial
grounds available near you,Being buried on private land
(02:48):
requires quite complicatedpermissions from local councils,
the director of public health,the landowner.
Sometimes you even have to payto turn the private land into
land designated for use as acemetery.
We're actually running out ofspaces to bury our dead in urban
areas.
Some cemeteries are expected tobe full within the next 10
(03:10):
years, which is driving costsway up.
Many of these cemeteries areutilising formerly unused areas
to create new burial spots.
Some might say the death careindustry is a bit of a dumpster
fire.
The great news is that thereare innovators and disruptors
(03:30):
out there reimagining the deathcare industry and helping to
create and design a much neededand wanted cleaner, greener way
forward.
It's pretty exciting.
Today we're going to hear fromAnna Swenson, who is a
representative from Recompose,which has invented a form of
(03:52):
human composting.
Sounds crazy, but...
Why don't I let Anna explainit?
Recompose/Anna Swenson (03:58):
So Recompose is an ecological death
care provider and funeral homebased in Seattle, Washington.
We are the first full-servicefuneral home in the world to
offer the process of naturalorganic reduction, which is the
gentle transformation of humanbodies into soil.
It's also sometimes calledhuman composting.
Our process works when we placeeach body into what we call a
(04:23):
vessel.
It's indoors.
It's about a meter high and twometers long.
It's made out of steel so thesevessels are reusable and we
place each body into the vesselwith about three cubic meters of
plant material.
We use wood chips, alfalfa andstraw.
Lo Carmen (04:42):
I am just going to pop in here and describe the
facilities which I've only seenin photographs and videos but
They are really quiteastoundingly beautiful, and more
than a little high-tech sciencefiction-like.
There's a honeycombed wall ofwhite steel vessels, which is
where the bodies go, kind oflike a Japanese capsule hotel.
(05:04):
At Recompose, they joke aroundcalling it the Hotel for the
Dead.
Founder and CEO Katrina Spade.
explains that she was strivingfor a blend of ritual science
and technology with thepremises.
She was an architecture studentoriginally, and she says that
she wanted to make a spacesomewhere between a spaceship
(05:27):
and the forest floor.
And she really has attained herdream.
Everything is surgically cleanand white, but there are indoor
trees and plants everywhere,along with beautiful photographs
of plants.
It has the most zen, calm,efficient vibe and looks safe
and inviting and like it wouldsmell woodsy and fresh.
(05:49):
Spade was inspired by homefunerals that she witnessed and
natural burials.
She loved the rituals that sheobserved and tried to recreate
that with Recompose.
They have a process called thelaying in, which is the
(06:10):
ceremonial farewell to the bodybefore the vessel enters the
honeycombed wall.
During the laying in process,the dead are cocooned in bright
organic cotton shrouds andsurrounded by wood chips, straw
and alfalfa.
It looks cosy and beautiful,almost like something you would
(06:32):
see in a florist.
Recompose/Anna Swenson (06:34):
actually the microbes that naturally
occur on our bodies and in thatplant material that power the
transformation into soil.
They create heat of over 131degrees Fahrenheit And I did not
look up what the Celsius is,but it's pretty warm.
And that heat that's created iswhat transforms the body into
(06:55):
soil.
And the change takes place on amolecular level.
So that heat transforms thebones.
It breaks down anypharmaceuticals that are in the
body, any pathogens.
And the body remains in thevessel for 30 days.
And then we remove the soilfrom the vessel, screen for
non-organics like hip implants.
We test it.
(07:16):
it for safety and then it curesand dries for about two to four
more weeks.
So the time between when thebody goes into the vessel and
when the soil is ready to goback to the family is between
six and eight weeks.
It creates about a cubic meterof soil, and families can either
take it home and use it ontheir lawns or gardens if they
(07:38):
want, or we have a forest thatfolks can donate it to if they'd
rather spend eternity in aforest.
So that's what I've chosen formy soil, is to go to Bell's
Mountain.
And sometimes when I'm having areally rough day, I'm like, you
know what?
Music - Adam Young (08:03):
You belong somewhere close to me Far away
(08:24):
from your trouble and worriesYou belong somewhere you feel
free You belong somewhere youfeel free
Recompose/Anna Swenson (08:39):
So our founder and CEO, Katrina Spade,
first had the idea for thisprocess when she was getting her
master's degree in architecturein about 2014.
She's a person who cares aboutthe environment.
She makes eco-consciouschoices.
And she wasn't really feelinglike conventional burial or
cremation were really what shewanted for herself.
(08:59):
And around this time, as shewas thinking about this, she had
a friend call her and say, youknow, farmers in the U.S.
have been recycling livestockusing composting practices for
many decades.
It's well-studied soil science.
And that's how Katrina got theidea to try and do it for
humans.
Most folks understand thatconventional burial in a
(09:22):
cemetery with a concrete vaultand a hardwood casket and
embalming, like most people arehip to the fact that that is
environmentally harmful.
But a lot of those folks thinkthat cremation is just like the
easier choice.
It's green.
It's not a lot of work for yourpeople and just choose that and
it's done.
However, the environmentalimpact of cremation and
(09:45):
conventional burial are aboutthe same.
And that's because of thefossil gas required to create
the heat that is created in thecrematory retort.
So once people learn that, thenthey're open to hearing about
the fact that for every personwho chooses the recompose
process over conventional burialor cremation, one metric ton of
(10:05):
carbon dioxide is saved fromentering the environment.
So it really is an impactfulchoice.
Lo Carmen (10:11):
How long does a body take to decompose naturally?
Recompose/Anna Swenson (10:14):
Yeah, so sometimes people ask me, like,
wouldn't this human compostingprocess take place on the forest
floor naturally, and it would.
It just takes a lot longer.
It really depends on conditionslike moisture, what the makeup
of the soil is, what thetemperature is.
A
Lo Carmen (10:29):
lot of people find the idea very confronting at
first and then when they learnmore about it they tend to fall
in love with it.
Recompose/Anna Swenson (10:40):
So the laying in is the name that we
use for the ceremony and part ofit is a literal laying in where
we lay the body into the vesselwith the plant material and
depending on the family somefamilies elect not to watch that
and our staff does it.
We do try to be extrarespectful.
We always say a littlesomething about who the person
(11:02):
was, and we'll ask the family ifthere's any music that they
want us to play while we'redoing this work.
We get a lot of Celine Dion,which is, you know, fun.
Lo Carmen (11:11):
Is it My Heart Will Go On?
Recompose/Anna Swenson (11:13):
There was one gentleman early on who
chose that song, and thenthere's another one.
There's like a duet that shehas with Andrea Bocelli that a
couple people have chosen.
Yeah, and then, you know,there's like some classical
music.
One gentleman men chose sublimewhich was a fun change amazing
yeah it can really be a creationof what who the person was and
(11:37):
what their family finds
Lo Carmen (11:43):
the thing that seems most beautiful about it is that
life comes out of death that itliterally means that death is
not the end.
Have there been many peoplebesides the Catholic Church that
have been anti what you'redoing?
Recompose/Anna Swenson (12:00):
You know, we're lucky that most
people are very curious at thevery least, even if they decide
that it's ultimately not forthem, they sort of find it
intriguing.
We don't have a whole lot ofHaters or you know people who
are just like really vehementlyopposed to this and I think a
(12:22):
couple reasons for that one isthat We've done a lot of
education to make peopleunderstand that this is
something that we've researchedand there is science behind it
and we can prove that it's safe.
So people don't usually have agreat experience with the
conventional funeral industry.
At least here in the US, it hasa reputation for sort of not
(12:43):
being the most transparent andnot being the most supportive.
So people like that Recomposeis changing that.
Sometimes I really go lookingfor people who are opposed to
what we're doing, and somepeople are like, oh, they're
going to make us grow food withit and then eat it, and we'll be
eating our relatives.
And we're like, no, we do notencourage you to grow food with
(13:04):
this soil.
It's just a choice that youdon't have to make.
Lo Carmen (13:12):
That's not a bad idea, though, really, is it?
The position of the CatholicChurch is...
A little confusing.
Archbishop Michael Jackles ofIowa issued a statement in 2021
(13:36):
acknowledging the oppositionfrom some of the other bishops
who consider natural organicreduction and alkaline
hydrolysis methods offensive,disrespectful, but he personally
supported them, touting them asgreen options that the Catholic
Church ought to allow.
Dennis Paust, who's theexecutive director of the New
(13:57):
York State Catholic Conference,wrote some letters to the New
York governor where he statedthat composting does not respect
the human body as a vessel ofthe soul and said that
composting is something we as asociety associate with a
sustainable method ofeliminating organic trash that
(14:18):
otherwise ends up in landfills.
but human bodies are nothousehold waste and we do not
believe that the process meetsthe standard of reverent
treatment.
He wrote, the process that isperfectly appropriate for
returning vegetable trimmings tothe earth is not necessarily
appropriate for human bodies.
I guess each to their own.
(14:40):
Dennis.
Dennis.
Recompose/Anna Swenson (14:57):
Before we opened our facility called
The Greenhouse, we thoughtpeople would want this, but we
weren't really sure if theywould be actually open to
sending their loved one to us tobe transformed into soil, but
turns out actually a lot ofpeople are willing to and a lot
of people want to.
Lo Carmen (15:13):
Is there a particular demographic that you find is
more attracted to it or are youoften surprised?
Recompose/Anna Swenson (15:18):
Really a variety.
I don't think that there's anyone particular type of person.
Maybe a trend would be theseare folks who want to know what
happens to them when they die,like they are more introspective
and curious maybe than theaverage funeral consumer.
You know, you do have to do alittle bit of digging to figure
(15:40):
out what this is and that youwant it.
We've been over capacity sincewe opened, which is great, but
also hard because we don't wantto turn people away.
Lo Carmen (15:49):
Before you started working there, was your own
death something you hadconsidered?
Were you prepared in any way?
Recompose/Anna Swenson (15:57):
Yeah I went to a lot of family funerals
when I was younger and theywere all just like sort of
stuffy and boring and like felta little bit fake so for a long
time I was like I'm never goingto a funeral again like I don't
care these are dumb but then asI started there was a book that
I read called From Here toEternity by Caitlin Doty who's a
(16:18):
friend of Recompose and thatwas when I started thinking
about you know maybe there'sanother way to do this that
feels more like more authenticto me.
I kind of also thought I wasjust going to choose cremation
because that sounded easier butyou know I didn't really like it
but it kind of sounded like Ididn't you know I didn't want to
burden my people so that kindof sounded like the hands-off
(16:39):
thing to do so I'm actually doesbring a good sense of relief
that I have it taken care of andno one has to worry about it
and it's something that reallyis in alignment with my values.
Lo Carmen (16:50):
You know, the fact that we can take our own death
care into our own hands andpre-plan by enrolling in
something like Precompose, Ithink is really fantastic.
It's totally something that Iwould do if I could.
However, unfortunately,Recompose is currently only
(17:11):
available in the United States.
Recompose/Anna Swenson (17:15):
If folks are interested in getting this
legalized in their state, greatthing to do is to talk to your
local representatives,specifically your state senator.
That's how we've gotten intoOregon, for example.
There was like one...
community member who called hisrepresentative and was so
annoying that he was like, fine,I'll do this bill.
That's fantastic, really.
(17:35):
I love hearing about one personmaking a difference.
And so what specifically dothey say?
I think just like I want tochoose natural organic reduction
for myself, this matters to mebecause of X reason, please put
this legislation forward.
Lo Carmen (17:50):
Is aquamation and green burial, is that also
considered natural organicreduction?
Recompose/Anna Swenson (17:56):
So those are different processes that
are usually regulatedseparately.
Here in Washington, the billthat legalized natural organic
reduction also legalizedalkaline hydrolysis or water
cremation, which is great.
That's another, if anyonelistening doesn't know, that's a
process where bodies are placedin a machine with water and
(18:16):
sulfates and charge, and ittakes a few hours for the body
to be reduced to sand I thinkit's good because it uses
one-eighth the energy ofconventional burial or
cremation, so it has some of thesame environmental benefits as
natural organic reduction.
Sometimes we say folks canthink about whether they like
(18:36):
the idea of soil better, theylike the idea of water better,
sort of like gut feeling whatmatters to you.
And then green burial...
I actually don't know how thatone is regulated.
From what I understand, you canprobably establish a green
burial cemetery in most stateswithout changing the laws, but I
(18:57):
don't know for sure.
Here in the US, it varies bystate.
Like in Washington, forexample, you can't be buried on
your own land.
Unless you designate the landas a cemetery and it costs like
$20,000.
But in other states, you canjust like tell the city where
you buried a body and they don'tcare.
Wow.
Yeah, I know.
Lo Carmen (19:16):
It's a whole world, isn't it?
Recompose/Anna Swenson (19:18):
It really
Lo Carmen (19:21):
Has being around death given you any insight into
what happens after we die?
Spiritually?
Do you think that anythingremains or do you think when we
die, we're just gone?
Recompose/Anna Swenson (19:39):
Wow, what an interesting question.
I mean, for me personally, Ithink that our consciousness
returns to the collective,right?
I always say that I really wantto meet a ghost, even though I
don't really believe in ghosts.
Lo Carmen (19:56):
I'm exactly the same.
Recompose/Anna Swenson (19:58):
Yeah.
I would love to be wrong.
Working in death care hasreally given me an appreciation
for the unexplained.
When I train our new employees,I always say like part of what
recomposes is like anappreciation for the unknown.
And I came from a reallycorporate background that had no
appreciation for the unknown.
(20:19):
So it, it, It is comforting andkind of validating to realize
that I don't have all theanswers and no one does.
It's been great to be part of amovement of people thinking
more consciously about what theywant to be.
There's something empoweringabout dying as you've lived and
(20:39):
having an empowered choice.
Lo Carmen (20:41):
Yeah, absolutely.
(21:10):
If you want me again, look forme under your boot soles.
Wise words there from WaltWhitman.
After learning about Recomposewith Anna, I found myself really
curious about the other kindsof natural organic reduction and
(21:30):
environmentally consciousoptions that are available.
According to the US-basedNational Funeral Directors
Association, I'm Not Alone, In2022, over 60% of people that
were surveyed reported that theywould be interested in green
funeral options.
In America, natural burial islegal in all 50 states, with
(21:54):
variations on rules, regulationsand availability.
There's around 220 naturalburial sites there.
There's about 270 in the UK,where it's more popular, and
around 15 sites in Australia.
Some of them attach to regularcemeteries.
There's an area that can beused strictly for natural
(22:18):
burial.
Others are more particular.
Germany has what they callsanctuary or cinerary forests,
which allows for the burial ofurns, not bodies.
but they're also very beautifuland now France is adopting that
idea also and there's a coupleof cinerary forests starting
(22:42):
there where residents can beburied free of charge without
flowers, wreaths or headstones.
I remembered my friend BleddynButcher, a wonderful
photographer, mentioning thathis sister had chosen a natural
burial for herself and howspecial it was.
Bleddyn Butcher (23:02):
She figured after much research and
discussion with her doctors thatif she went off chemo she'd
probably have four to six weeksclear with her husband and her
family and then after that she'dbegin the process of dying and
she didn't She did it with cleareyes and knowledge and she just
(23:26):
wanted to have some time withher family and she knew she was
going to die anyway and itdidn't matter to her whether it
was in three months.
without chemotherapy or in ninemonths with chemotherapy.
It was just, I want to havesome clear blue water or
(23:47):
whatever you want to call it.
So that's what she did.
And in that period, it's been alot of time driving around
Perth and its environs with herhusband.
They were doing, they weretalking about what he would do
and what the family would doafter she was gone, how she
would like to be remembered.
And and they explored thepossibilities and the one that
(24:10):
she decided was she had nointerest in having a memorial, a
headstone, but she wasattracted to the idea that there
would be a place that herfamily could come and visit her
or think about her but notactually have to look at a
headstone or a memorial tablet.
(24:32):
So she found this place.
It's a cemetery but it'srelatively natural.
There's a huge mob of kangaroosthere and she chose to have an
unmarked grave.
Lo Carmen (24:44):
So do you have coordinates to find her?
Bleddyn Butcher (24:46):
Well, I carried the coffin so I know where it
is and I know exactly where itis because I I've been back
there a number of times withmostly with my mother but also
alone And I figured out a wayto...
I know exactly where the graveis.
(25:07):
There's a root and there's afork in the tree and you start
lining up.
But Mum keeps complaining abouthow she's forgotten where the
grave actually is, but Ihaven't.
She kind of liked the idea, Ithink, that when people...
made the formal decision tosort of visit her grave, that
(25:33):
they would also effectively becommuting with nature.
Because there wasn't a monumentto worship, it was just that
you were in the place where herbody was buried.
And that's actually a veryeffective decision.
I don't know about the wordspiritual, but there's something
about it that's quite moving.
Lo Carmen (25:54):
So was kind of a gift?
Bleddyn Butcher (25:56):
Yeah.
Lo Carmen (25:56):
To you in some way.
Bleddyn Butcher (25:57):
Oh, yeah, it was.
Yeah.
My mother responded to it byimmediately saying that she
wanted to be buried in the sameway, in the same place and
alongside and has booked thespace.
Lo Carmen (26:10):
Amazing.
Was your sister in acompostable coffin?
Bleddyn Butcher (26:15):
Yeah.
Yeah, that was the other thing.
It's a wicker coffin.
Lo Carmen (26:18):
Wicker, okay.
So did she choose that herself?
Bleddyn Butcher (26:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that she quite...
I didn't actually discuss wormswith her, but when I was
talking with her about it, shewas quite happy to be dust to
dust.
She was quite happy with that.
The idea that the molecules ofher body would just be returned
(26:42):
to the earth.
She quite liked that idea.
And I like it too.
I like the way that she wasn'tputting any impediment like a
jar of coffin.
in between it's a wicker coffinso you could see her wrapped
body when you were carrying thecoffin so she was
Lo Carmen (27:02):
in a shroud but
Bleddyn Butcher (27:03):
there was something chrysalis like as
opposed to something as opposedto like a sealed box there was
something transformative abouther coffin the wicker coffin
because it's sort of much morelike a chrysalis, as I say.
And so you're aware that, well,to me, the metaphor was that
(27:27):
she was embarking upon a changeof state.
And that was quite moving.
The fact that she was not onlyreconciled to that, but she
embraced it.
And it wasn't anyone else'sdecision except hers.
which I liked as well becausequite often people don't make
(27:48):
plans for that sort of thing.
Lo Carmen (27:50):
That's right.
And then you end up feelinglike, oh, I don't know that they
would have wanted this.
Yeah.
Bleddyn Butcher (27:56):
So part of what was pleasing is that that was
her decision.
And another part is that itseems to have been a very good
decision.
You know, she did explore...
actually even more anonymoussolutions.
Like if somebody owns land, youare allowed to bury people with
permission.
(28:16):
But she decided against that.
She decided that probably thesurviving members of the family
would want to have somewhere togo.
I know that I appreciate it,and I think my mother does.
The ritual element, nothinghappens When we go up there, no
(28:37):
one takes flowers or anything.
They actually suggest that youshouldn't, but apparently the
kangaroos like flowers quite alot anyway.
They actually eat them.
Part of the ritual of theburial that was so moving is
that as traditionally you throwa handful of dirt onto the
(28:59):
coffin, and a flower or flowers.
When you picked up the handfulof dirt, which was just great,
because I didn't go from thepile that was dug up, I just
picked my handful up from thegravesite.
and threw it onto the coffin.
What was kind of moving is thatthe dirt filtered through the
(29:23):
coffin onto the shroud.
So you're actually initiatingthe process of transformation
yourself.
And if, I mean, I was one ofthe last people to leave the
gravesite and made sure thatthere was quite a lot, that the
grave digger didn't just comealong and...
push the dirt in with a digger,made sure that there was
(29:49):
actually a veil of dirt over thewhole thing so that we'd
actually initiated the process.
I don't know whether anyoneelse was thinking the same way
as me, but that's what I wasthinking.
It was very moving and it wasgood to hold it in the open air.
It was the ambient sounds.
Everyone was gathered outside.
(30:10):
It was very purposeful and verymeaningful.
Lo Carmen (30:13):
And was she someone that was really environmentally
conscious?
Was that part of what promptedit?
Or was it more thephilosophical and the
meaningfulness of it?
Bleddyn Butcher (30:23):
I think it's a mixture of the two.
It was explicitly, she wasquite explicit about the lack of
impact on the environment.
But I think she was, if we cancall it spiritual, I think her
idea of commuting with naturewas uppermost.
But that's sort of the flipside of the same impulse.
(30:45):
And I think the generositycomes in finding somewhere
meaningful.
You can actually be put into agrave which has got an allocated
space in sort of like a rigidgrid up there and there is an
area where they have gravestonesas well.
So she whittled the optionsdown into the most anonymous of
(31:12):
those.
It wasn't about a monument,it's about she understood that
people would remember her andwould want somewhere special.
it was a good thought it's kindof remarkable that she should
use her remaining time in that
Lo Carmen (31:40):
well that's it from me today i really enjoyed
learning about theseenvironmentally friendly
efficient and effectivealternatives for disposing of
our earthly remains I will leaveinformation on how to contact
them in the show notes.
But if you just want to do aquick Google right here, right
(32:04):
now, recompose.life.
So if you want to come and findme at locarmen.substack.com If
(32:25):
you subscribe and become part ofthe community, which you can do
for free, it doesn't cost athing.
That way we can just chat moreabout all of these options and
you can share any knowledge orstories that you have.
I, and I'm sure others, wouldlove to be talking together
about all of this.
(32:45):
There's so much to talk about.
Thank you so much for joiningme on Death Is Not The End.
See you next time.
Music - Peter Head (32:57):
Death Is
Lo Carmen (33:06):
Not The End is produced by Black Tambourine
Productions.
Recorded and written by me, LoCarmen, on Gadigal land that was
never ceded.
Peter Head composed thebeautiful theme music.
Death is not the end
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.