July 25, 2025 • 34 mins
Lo Carmen talks with Jackie Dent , journalist and author of “The Great Dead Body Teachers”, a book about whole body donation and the incredible world of human anatomy.
Follow Jackie here www.instagram.com/jackiedentwrites/
Buy The Great Dead Body Teachers
Thank you to Sam Shinazzi for recording a porch version of ‘Your Body Is A Wonderland’, originally by John Mayer, for this episode. More Sam Shinazzi here.
The Death Is Not The End Theme music composed, performed and recorded by Peter Head.
The Death Is Not The End sting is from the Bob Dylan song, also performed and recorded by Peter Head.
The repertoire on this recording is licensed by APRA AMCOS.
The artwork used on the podcast was created by Craig Waddell.
SOME USEFUL LINKS FOR BODY DONATION
Please note that you can generally find info for your country by searching 'how to donate my body to medical science' and finding links to the university nearest you.
AUSTRALIA
https://sbb.neura.edu.au/donors/brain_donor_programs
https://www.sydney.edu.au/medicine-health/industry-and-community/support-us/body-donations.html
https://medicine-psychology.anu.edu.au/partner-us/collaborate-us/body-tissue-donation
https://www.donatelife.gov.au/register-donor-today
USA
https://www.sciencecare.com/about-science-care
https://portal.braindonorproject.org
https://fac.utk.edu/body-donation/
CANADA
UK
https://www.hta.gov.uk/guidance-public/body-organ-and-tissue-donation/brain-donation
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©Black Tambourine Productions 2025 ...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lo Carmen (00:00):
The saying, dead men tell no tales, is not actually
correct.
After death, our bodies becomea wonderland of possibilities.
(00:23):
through organ donation andlife-saving transplants, they
can help keep someone else'sstories alive.
And through whole body donationfor medical research and
education, they can contributeto the greater good of humanity
and help solve medicalmysteries.
Another saying is that donatingyour body to science is the
(00:48):
greatest gift in the worldbecause it helps endless people,
endlessly.
Journalist Jackie Dent hadalways been slightly perturbed
and intrigued by the fact thather beloved grandparents had
donated their bodies to medicalscience.
And as time went on, she foundherself wondering about their
(01:10):
motivations.
She also founddissection-related topics,
people and items kept popping upin her life.
Being both an exceptionallythoughtful person and an
investigative journalist, Jackiepulled the thread of her
curiosity and soon found herselfwriting a book, The Great Dead
(01:34):
Body Teachers.
And as she puts it in theopening paragraph of this book,
She soon found herself in themiddle of a massive production
called What the Fuck Anatomy, apart drama, comedy, horror,
science fiction, and MarinaAbramovich concept piece.
Jackie explored where fewpeople dare to tread and has
(01:59):
compiled the most incredibleresource of information, both
current and historical, aboutdonating one's body, medical
science, what it's given us andwhere we would be without it.
She travelled the world, shespoke to researchers,
(02:20):
scientists, students, doctors,educators, historians, you name
it, she spoke to them and todaywe are going to speak with
Jackie.
Jackie Dent (02:33):
So it is a very mysterious space and I think
people go, oh yeah, I can donatemy body to science.
But also the thing too is a lotof people get mixed up with
whole body donation and organdonation.
And I think that's why like onthe first page of the book maybe
I explain the differencebecause they are absolutely two
different worlds.
Lo Carmen (02:51):
My parents have always...
wanted to donate their bodiesand they've signed up.
My dad specifically has alwayssaid that he wants to be studied
for the effects of long-termmarijuana use on the brain.
Jackie Dent (03:03):
Well, you know, he should send his brain to the
brain.
I know that the University ofSydney has a brain, they want
brains, but also you can'tspecify what you want as well.
The anonymous stress again andagain that, you know, you've got
to hand over the whole body.
You can't, say, oh, I just wantmy legs studied or my foot
(03:23):
studied or my heart because it'squite a logistical exercise.
Like they'll have, for example,you know, and every university
is different, the way they dealwith the dead, but they'll have
like a project that they need alot of knees.
Lo Carmen (03:37):
Right.
Jackie Dent (03:38):
And then they'll have a project where– you know,
they're looking at specificthings.
So it's sort of there's a lotof planning that goes into it.
So you can't just say, yeah,you can look at my heart or my
marijuana brain.
That's pretty interesting,isn't it?
It is.
It's a real mystery about whathappens.
And I think, you know, I spoketo a really fascinating
(04:00):
anatomist in England, ClaireSmith, who's actually written a
book that's quite hardcore aboutand she goes into really
graphic details about whathappens and she believes that
people are a bit, wearrose-tinted glasses about body
donation.
They have sort of romanticideas about it because the
reality is it is a prettyfull-on thing.
(04:22):
Like you will be chopped up andyou will be, yeah, you will be
studied and dissected and cut upinto bits and, you know, that's
pretty edgy.
And...
But, yes, I think that's thething as well that triggered me
to get more into it is thatthere's a lot of academic papers
(04:43):
about anatomists, aboutstudents' feelings and how to
study the knee and things thatthey find.
But I guess because I've workedas a journalist for a long
time, I just felt like there wasa real gap in knowing what
happened in the space.
But I was also just reallyfascinated by all the characters
that work in that space and howthey feel about it, what it's
(05:03):
like day-to-day learningliterally working with death.
And what did you find?
Oh, look, I don't know if Icould generalise because I feel
like, you know, we're alldifferent and all the anatomists
are very different and some ofthem are very philosophical
about it.
And, you know, so I kind of wasdrawn to international
anatomists that, you know, workon death more kind of
(05:26):
philosophical areas about it.
The thing that really shockedme, it was kind of a turning
point when I was working on thebook actually, is because you
and I would think that theanatomy lab is just about death,
right?
Like it's all, there's justdead bodies there.
But I spoke to an anatomist inNew Zealand who said that it's
only probably in the last coupleof decades, in recent years,
(05:46):
that the anatomy lab hasactually become a place for
students to learn about death.
You know, like this is thereality of being a doctor is
that people will die and youwill have to look after the
dead.
And, you know, and I was like Iwould have thought death was
there the whole time.
But he said, no, it's like anew thing that we use the
(06:07):
anatomy lab as a place to teachstudents to reflect on death.
And, you know, anotheranatomist that I profiled,
Goran, who's, you know, We'vesince become, you know, we talk
now and meet up for coffees.
He did a philosophy degreebefore he became an anatomist.
And, you know, for him, hethinks that it is a very
(06:27):
powerful place to think aboutlife and death.
But then there's other peoplethat I met, sort of technicians
that You know, they just see itas they're doing their daily
work and they're chopping upbodies.
And the most fascinating thingthat's happened since the book
that came out is that I've beengetting kind of fan mail and
meeting people who have beencoming up to me at book events,
(06:50):
and they're young women who aretechnicians.
And also in the book I go outto a body farm, which is another
place where you can send yourbody now for forensic research,
and it's all women.
So that's the thing that Ifound really fascinating is that
women In terms of the carpentryof dissection, like chopping up
and doing the dissection, itseems to be becoming a female
(07:10):
profession, which I found superinteresting and something that I
want to follow up on.
Lo Carmen (07:14):
It is fascinating, you know, especially with the
whole death positive movementthat has so many female fans.
Jackie Dent (07:22):
Well, maybe because we give birth, like maybe we
can give death.
Yeah, we're just in touch withit all.
Yeah, so yeah, there isdefinitely, I mean, a lot of, I
know a few deathies in the deathworld and, you know, there's
just a lot of women in thisspace.
Lo Carmen (07:36):
Though mortuary science has traditionally been a
male-dominated field, thedemographics are rapidly
shifting, growing from 5% femaleenrolment in mortuary schools
in the 70s to 72% femaleenrolment in 2019.
A Californian college reportedin 2022 that their graduating
(07:57):
class was 100% female, with asignificant number of those
graduates also identifying asLatina or Black.
The rise of female morticianson social media platforms such
as the wonderful CaitlinDoughty, Lauren the Mortician
and really young 23-year-old GenZ morticians Amber Berrios from
(08:19):
the US and Sarah Broanda fromAustralia has helped to
demystify the profession andattract a whole new generation
of women.
Rowanda told the ABC, theindustry is full of young people
at the moment, particularlyyoung women, which I find pretty
cool.
Every one of the 11 newlyqualified embalmers at the
(08:43):
Australian Institute ofEmbalming National Conference in
March 2024 was female.
Women are reclaiming a rolethat they held historically
before the mid-19th century,where the intimate role of death
care was performed by women infamily homes.
This changed during the CivilWar as embalming became more
(09:03):
widespread so that soldiers'bodies could be preserved for
the travel home to theirfamilies.
Embalming required scientifictraining, which women were
systematically excluded from,leading to the male domination
of the funeral industry and themedical industry in general.
Medical schools in the UnitedStates didn't start admitting
(09:25):
women until around 1900, and itwasn't until after World War II
that we saw the first femalegraduates from Harvard Medical
School.
But way back in the 1350s, ayoung woman in Italy Alessandra
Ghiliani was assisting the famedanatomist Mondino De Luizzi at
(09:47):
the University of Bologna as adissector, even though this was
against the laws of the churchand the government at the time.
She managed to attend medicalschool by dressing as a man and
made discoveries about thepulmonary circulatory system
that preceded the officialaccepted discoveries by
researcher William Harvey by 300years.
(10:08):
It is believed that the churchat It should also be noted that
(10:28):
the anatomical world is becomingmore open in general, perhaps
more compassionate.
which has been reflected in theceremonies that have been held
by universities thankingfamilies and donors for their
contribution to medical science.
Unknown Speaker (10:48):
Beyond the realm of science, as I reflect
on the significance of each andevery donor, I'm reminded of the
rich diversity of humanexperiences that weaves us all
together.
It is only through the hands-onexperience without working with
our donors that we trulygrasp...
Lo Carmen (11:03):
In your book, you talk about some of the kind of
rituals that occur inuniversities where the staff and
the anatomists thank the bodiesor invite the families.
to some kind of ceremony whenthey've finished.
Could you describe thatprocess?
Jackie Dent (11:22):
Yeah, so it is a really fascinating development
in anatomy.
Body donation is a newdevelopment.
It's probably only been aroundfor the last hundred years
before they used to use thebodies of criminals and people
that died in mental hospitals.
And in fact, actually up untilthe 80s in Australia, if you
died in a mental hospital, youwere potentially dissected,
which I found prettyfascinating.
(11:42):
So anatomy and dissection hasalways had this sort of kind of
yucky air about it.
And curiously, if you gothrough the old newspapers in
Australia, if someone donatedtheir body, there was an article
about it.
There's a whole section of thebook where I look at the old
stories around body donors.
So what happened is that theanatomists had to meet You know,
(12:05):
they realized that the familiesof body donors were feeling
uncomfortable, like what's goingon there?
It is a very mysterious space.
So they began in Britain.
So what happens is that after,you know, the students are
finished with the bodies, theynow, and it's not all
universities do it, but it isslowly spread across the world
(12:25):
where they will have a ceremonywhere the students will talk
about, you know, thanking forthe gift of the body, the family
members can go.
During COVID, it was reallyhard.
We couldn't go up to Queenslandto a ceremony.
And so my mum and dad and Iwatched a ceremony via Zoom.
(12:46):
And it was really interesting,my dad's reaction.
I mean, my dad's in his 80s andhe said that at the end of it,
he said, oh, you know, when didthey start doing this?
You know, like, why didn'tanyone ever tell me about this
before?
You know, they just sort oftook my parents' bodies and we
just never really heard fromthem again.
We just got the ashes.
(13:06):
So I think it really is a wayfor, you know, the anatomists to
send a message to the communitythat we care about the bodies
and the donors.
And it's a way for thecommunity to learn a bit more
about what actually happens andthe appreciation that the
students have.
Yeah, I found that reallymoving reading that.
That's one of the things in thebook is that I wanted to make
(13:29):
the dissection of mygrandparents not so disgusting
and so yucky and actually giveagency to the dead and give
agency to the dissected becausethey're kind of these lost
characters in history.
Lo Carmen (13:43):
Yeah, and meaning and respect, it's...
I think it's really importantand revealing research that
you've done and I feel like itshould be required reading.
Jackie Dent (13:57):
Would you donate your body?
Lo Carmen (13:59):
No.
Jackie Dent (14:00):
No, it's interesting and how come?
Lo Carmen (14:02):
Because I want to be a record.
Jackie Dent (14:06):
Oh, right, okay.
Oh, great, okay, that'sinteresting.
Lo Carmen (14:10):
Yeah, I just, I don't know, I like novelty things.
Unknown (14:16):
LAUGHTER
Lo Carmen (14:21):
The other thing that I was especially moved by was
your description of where thesoul resides.
Could you talk a little bitabout that?
Jackie Dent (14:30):
Yeah, so that, I mean, it's a really interesting
thing, isn't it?
I don't know, are you areligious person?
Lo Carmen (14:35):
No, I'm not religious and I don't even know if I
believe in souls like I kind ofdo on a creative level.
I don't know.
in reality if I do or not.
Jackie Dent (14:46):
Yeah, so I'm probably the same.
Like it's sort of and so, youknow, it became this very
interesting thing about like whydon't I want to donate my body?
Like it's because I'll be dead.
You don't want to be cold.
Yeah, I don't want to be cold.
I go on about that a bit toomuch in the book probably.
But, yeah, so it was a veryinteresting thing.
It was like, well, obviously Ibelieve in some sort of
afterlife and, you know, thiswhole issue of the soul has
(15:09):
really plagued the anatomy labfor decades Well, and still
does, the fact that, you know,the body, what is the body?
What is a corpse?
And, you know, Leonardo daVinci, I found incredible, spent
30 years trying to find wherethe soul was and he identified
it at the base of the back ofthe neck.
How
Lo Carmen (15:30):
did he come to that?
Jackie Dent (15:32):
Well, he read a story that apparently when
Alexander the Great, or was itHannibal, wanted to kill an
out-of-control elephant, theywould spear it in that spot in
the back of their neck there.
So I think for some reason he–so there's a famous drawing
actually of where Leonardo, hepoints this is where the soul is
(15:53):
and it's sort of in the base ofyour skull area.
But, yeah, even today there's alot of research that says in
some anatomical papers about howthe idea of the soul really
impacts on students.
But also it's why in many partsof the world, we do now have an
international corpse tradebecause there's countries,
(16:16):
particularly in Middle Easterncountries, places where because
of islam they can't you knowpeople just aren't donating
bodies and so you have a bigtrade out of america india and
the philippines i didn't go intoit too much into the book
because it's like a whole otherfootball field of rabbit holes
but and it you know it requiresquite serious investigation but
(16:36):
yeah i mean the idea of of thepower of the body and you know
what happens to the soulafterwards definitely is a
reason why people don't donate,but also is a reason why
students can get quite upset.
And I found it reallyinteresting that people attach
certain meanings to differentparts of the body, like the
heart and the brain have moremeaning than like a kidney.
(16:58):
So students felt a lot ofintense feelings about brains.
Actually, the anatomists dotalk a lot about the brain.
I think the brain is a prettyweird...
I've watched a lot of videos ofbrains now and It's really
gloopy actually.
I thought it was much firmerbut it's actually like very soft
and cloudy.
Like it's sort of so, yeah,there's a lot of politics and
(17:21):
spiritual elements arounddissection and the soul
definitely was like a characterthat kept coming up.
Lo Carmen (17:28):
Yeah, it's so fascinating how in different
kinds of cultures people thebelief of how long the soul
resides in the body after deathbefore it's gone.
Like, you know, in Irishculture, you have to stay with
the dead body for three daysbecause that's how long it takes
for the soul to separate.
There's, you know, variousthoughts in various cultures
(17:52):
that are all quite different andI just find that quite
interesting at what point thebody just becomes a shell and no
longer holds all of those ideasthat a human being is made up
of.
Without dissection and thestudy of our bodies, where do
(18:12):
you think we would be today?
Jackie Dent (18:14):
Well, I think that's the thing that really,
the one thing I just came torealize is that the You know,
people find it really gross thatI've written this book about
dissection.
Well, you know, it's not alighthearted topic, is it?
Like I'm not doing a thing onmotivational, you know, how to
lose weight.
You know, it's like it's apretty edgy topic.
But the thing is it's thereason a lot of us are here.
(18:36):
Like it's the back room ofmedicine.
It's like, you know, if youpull back a curtain in a theatre
and behind you see all theactors and the costume makers
and, I mean, this is the backroom of medicine is dissection
and prosection.
Lo Carmen (18:49):
Yeah.
Jackie Dent (18:50):
you know, every weekend in Sydney, across
Australia, across the world,there are doctors practicing on
corpses.
And it really is a, you know,an intrinsic part of, the word
that came up for me was, thatpeople told was haptic.
So haptic is learning throughtouching.
So you actually do it with yourhands and, you know, it's how
(19:11):
you learn it.
And So there is sort of a shiftin anatomy where people,
there's all this amazingsoftware.
So I went to this Londonconference and it was quite
spectacular, you know, thecomputer imagery and there's
this thing called the anatomagetable.
I don't know if you've gottenup to that section in the book
yet where I go to thisconference in London and meet
all these internationalanatomists but there's this
(19:31):
anatomage table, you know, andit's like you flick through it.
The software is amazing and so,you know, some universities
argue you can just get by on thesoftware but it wasn't until I
actually ended up going to asurgical workshop in Sydney and
seeing on the Saturday it wasall heads that were being
dissected and then on the Sundayit was head and neck with ENT
(19:52):
training surgeons, that's when Irealised, wow, like they need
to get in there and they need tolearn the map of the face and
it's through touching the skinand getting in there that you, I
mean of course a dissected aperson, you know, a body donor
is embalmed.
So it's not, it doesn't havethat vitality and wildness that,
(20:16):
you know, when a surgeon'sdoing an operation, but you
could really see that bytouching the body and learning
the three-dimensional that thesedoctors were learning.
And I think I made the point inthe book, it's like being a
writer.
It isn't until you've actuallyexperienced something that you
can really write about it.
And it was seeing thatdissection workshop over that
weekend it was very confrontingfor me because I'm like super
(20:40):
squeamish and I thought I wasgonna like freak out but it
wasn't until then that it alljust sort of came together going
out to the forensic facility inthe Blue Mountains and seeing I
went out there twice and seeingthe scientists at work and
seeing all the bodies out thereand the police and what they
were doing you know it waspretty uh Yeah, you can see that
(21:01):
these donors are actually,yeah, they totally are
contributing to research.
Forensic
Lo Carmen (21:09):
Anthropology Research Labs, more colloquially known
as Body Farms, are outdoor siteswhere decomposing bodies can be
studied in a range ofenvironments and circumstances
to help advance scientificknowledge and solve crimes.
The first body farm was foundedin 1987 by anthropologist and
(21:31):
human decomposition researchpioneer William M.
Bass at the University ofTennessee in Knoxville.
As of 2023, there are currentlyeight body farms across the US.
One in Canada, one inAustralia, with another one in
progress, and one in theNetherlands.
Donated bodies are used formultiple studies.
(21:53):
As they break down, changes areobserved and documented that
can be accessed by researchersaround the world, helping to
improve methods ofidentification and time of death
determinations.
These environments provideunique learning opportunities
for law enforcement Thank you.
(22:13):
also helping to stop mistakesbeing made in evidence recovery
that could render cases uselessin court.
The Australian Federal Policeconduct disaster recovery
training for mass casualtyevents like plane crashes and
bombings using real cadavers sothat they're more equipped and
(22:38):
prepared when faced with thereal thing.
Other studies includeexamination of insects and
bacteria and decomposition invarious surroundings, including
out in the open in shallow ordeep graves, in cars, covered in
plastic, in concrete, inextreme heat or cold climates,
all helping researchers learnmore about determining time of
(23:00):
death.
Further research projectsexamine whether fluids produced
by decaying bodies affect thesurrounding plant material, how
medications affectdecomposition, the impact of
animal scavengers, infrared anddrone detection, cadaver dog
training.
At the University of Tennessee,where decomposition is
(23:21):
complete, which generally takesa year or so, the skeletons
become part of the Bass DonatedSkeletal Collection, a database
available to researchers in theUS and globally using 3D
imagery.
It's been estimated that theUniversity of Tennessee was
responsible for the education ofat least quarter of the
(23:43):
board-certified forensicanthropologists in the United
States.
A representative from theuniversity said, The ultimate
goal is to learn the numerousthings that can happen to bodies
in various contexts.
So when our scientists need totestify in court, all of these
variables have been studied andit's not just conjecture.
That's what really drives us,the data, the science and the
(24:06):
reliability of testimony.
Among the donors are policeofficers, service members,
healthcare professionals andteachers.
A representative from theuniversity also says they feel
this is a way they can still beteaching after they're gone.
Apparently pre-donors to bodyfarms tend to be very
enthusiastic.
Many have an interest inforensic science and in helping
(24:29):
the criminal justice system.
Sometimes it's because they orsomebody else they know has been
a victim or has otherwise beenaffected.
Some universities host eventsfor pre-donors where they meet
forensic anthropologists and getto tour the labs.
Within 24 hours of a donor'sdeath, Their body will be taken
to the mortuary at a universityand 12 hours later they will be
(24:53):
on the body farm where they willgo on to contribute to some
world leading research.
Professor Shari Forbes,responsible for establishing the
2016 body farm in rural NewSouth Wales as well as the body
farm in Quebec where she iscurrently working says we are
forever indebted to the donorsand their families.
(25:15):
We understand that it's anunusual Thank you.
A person who wants to donatetheir body must provide written
consent before their death.
(25:35):
Alternatively, the senioravailable next of kin is able to
provide consent in writingafter death if the deceased had
not during their lifetimeexpressed an objection.
I'm sure there's differentrules in every country, so you
will need to research what ispertinent to you.
I heard Shari Forbes talkingabout how important it was to
(25:58):
her to help families dealingwith children or loved ones that
had been murdered or lost tothe elements in some other way,
that that was kind of what wasbehind the idea of the facility
of studying decomposition innatural surroundings and to help
advance that kind of forensicresearch.
Jackie Dent (26:19):
There's actually some quite interesting critiques
of these facilities as wellwhere the fact is people wonder
how effective the science isbecause And you replicate
every...
Yeah, like you die in differentcircumstances.
Like, you know, if you die inthe Canadian Rockies compared to
dying in Western Sydney, theway the body decomposes is very
(26:42):
different.
So I found that kind ofinteresting that there is some
debate around...
the worthworthiness of thescience.
Lo Carmen (26:49):
But I guess if there was more of these facilities all
around the world and they allshared research, then that would
be the ideal.
Jackie Dent (26:57):
Well, the thing I found really incredible about
the facility actually was justhow beautiful we are when, I
mean, it was confronting, butjust at the point the colours of
the bodies were exactly thesame as the bush.
It was like a FrederickMcCubbin painting and, you know,
the browns and the greens andthe mould and, you know, it was
(27:20):
really quite beautiful actuallyhow we just sort of mould into
the exact same colours of thebush.
Yeah, so I had some pretty likekind of cosmic, the first time
I went to the body farm thatnight I had like really intense
dreams and, you know, obviouslymy brain was sort of really
trying to flood out and washaround What I'd seen
Sam Shinazzi (27:41):
Your body is a wonderland Your body is a
wonderland I'll use my handsYour body is a wonderland
Jackie Dent (27:57):
I just kept thinking, going back to this
idea of we are in the world.
Do you know the feministphilosopher Val Plumwood?
Lo Carmen (28:08):
No, I don't.
Jackie Dent (28:09):
Right.
She's a very importantAustralian feminist
eco-philosopher.
She died, but she had thisincredible experience where she
survived a crocodile attack.
She wrote this famous essaythat you should read.
She's since died, but she wasat the forefront of
eco-philosophy and talked abouthow humans are have this
arrogance about you know wethink we're better at the top of
(28:30):
the food chain but you knowlike when i went out to the body
farm and saw the way that weare when we dissolve into the
world uh i could really see whatval was talking about you know
that we are in it you knowthere's this sort of ashes to
ashes you know worms and gasesyou know we are quite elemental
(28:51):
so
Lo Carmen (28:53):
99% of the mass of the human body is made up of six
elements.
Oxygen, carbon, hydrogen,nitrogen, calcium and
phosphorus.
Although we contain detectabletraces of around 60 chemical
elements.
With most of these elementsneeded for life also commonly
(29:15):
found in the Earth's crust.
The adult human body iscomposed of around 53% water.
The rest is proteins, fats,DNA, hydroxyapatite,
carbohydrates, ions and gases,or in more recognisable terms,
muscle, fat, bone, teeth,tissue, nerves, hormones,
(29:38):
fluids, gas and air.
Despite the fact that we areall fundamentally and
elementally the same, Learningto navigate and understand how
our endless individual quirksand differences work is what
makes the act of donating a bodyto medical science such an
important, valuable and generousact at no cost to you because
(30:02):
all the science indicates youwon't be there.
We'll go deeper into thelife-giving importance of organ
donation in another episode, butlet me take this opportunity to
stress that we should allregister as organ donors,
unless, of course, you have aparticular cultural issue with
it.
All major religions, includingChristianity, Islam, Buddhism,
(30:24):
Hinduism and Judaism, supportorgan and tissue donation, and
donation specialists can helpyour family to support your
religious and culturalrequirements.
One organ donor can save thelives of up to seven people but
only around 2% of people who diein Australian hospitals meet
(30:45):
the criteria required to be anorgan donor.
If you are able to be an organdonor, your body can still be
donated to medical scienceafterwards.
Advanced planning is importantfor making body donations, whole
body donations.
Please make sure that thepeople close to you know your
wishes and that you'veregistered your intent.
(31:07):
This will not only ease theemotional stress for those that
love you at the time of death,but will ensure that your body
donation will provide thegreatest value to science and to
patients in the future.
There are other bonuses.
Donating your body means therewill be no cost for your
cremation or disposition, whichis why it has often been a
(31:30):
popular and practical choice forthose of us less financially
secure.
And there will likely be alovely service and gratitude
ceremony provided by theuniversity or facility your body
is donated to, quite possiblywith string quartets, speeches,
sandwiches and flowers.
All that and...
(31:52):
You're helping humanity.
Something to think about, isn'tit?
Thank you so much to JackieDent for sharing all those
fascinating insights.
And honestly, her book, TheGreat Dead Body Teachers, is a
wild and fascinating ridethrough historical and modern
anatomy and science.
Funny with a beating personalheart.
(32:13):
Our conversation was lightlyedited for clarity and time.
Death Is Not The End waswritten, recorded and edited by
me, your host, Lo Carmen.
If you'd like to talk aboutthings we've discussed today,
please head tolocarmen.substack.
and we can get into it there.
(32:35):
Further details and links forthings we talked about today are
in the show notes.
Thank you to Sam Shannazzi forrecording a porch version of
Your Body is a Wonderland,originally by John Mayer, for
this episode.
The Death is Not the End thememusic was composed, performed
and recorded by Peter Head.
(32:57):
The Death Is Not The End stingis from the Bob Dylan song, also
performed and recorded by PeterHead.
The repertoire on thisrecording is licensed by APRA
AMCOS.
The artwork used on the podcastwas created by Craig Waddell.
Death Is Not The End is a BlackTambourine Productions
(33:17):
production.
Please do rate and review theshow wherever you listen.
If you enjoyed our episodetoday, it really helps other
people find it.
And see you on the other side.
Sam Shinazzi (33:29):
And if you want love, we'll make it swim in the
deep sea The blankets take allyour big plans and break them.
(33:57):
This is bound to take a while.
Your body is a wonderland.
Your body is a wonderland.
I'll use my hands.
Your body is a wonderland.
The saying, dead men tell no tales, is not actually
correct.
After death, our bodies becomea wonderland of possibilities.
(00:23):
through organ donation andlife-saving transplants, they
can help keep someone else'sstories alive.
And through whole body donationfor medical research and
education, they can contributeto the greater good of humanity
and help solve medicalmysteries.
Another saying is that donatingyour body to science is the
(00:48):
greatest gift in the worldbecause it helps endless people,
endlessly.
Journalist Jackie Dent hadalways been slightly perturbed
and intrigued by the fact thather beloved grandparents had
donated their bodies to medicalscience.
And as time went on, she foundherself wondering about their
(01:10):
motivations.
She also founddissection-related topics,
people and items kept popping upin her life.
Being both an exceptionallythoughtful person and an
investigative journalist, Jackiepulled the thread of her
curiosity and soon found herselfwriting a book, The Great Dead
(01:34):
Body Teachers.
And as she puts it in theopening paragraph of this book,
She soon found herself in themiddle of a massive production
called What the Fuck Anatomy, apart drama, comedy, horror,
science fiction, and MarinaAbramovich concept piece.
Jackie explored where fewpeople dare to tread and has
(01:59):
compiled the most incredibleresource of information, both
current and historical, aboutdonating one's body, medical
science, what it's given us andwhere we would be without it.
She travelled the world, shespoke to researchers,
(02:20):
scientists, students, doctors,educators, historians, you name
it, she spoke to them and todaywe are going to speak with
Jackie.
Jackie Dent (02:33):
So it is a very mysterious space and I think
people go, oh yeah, I can donatemy body to science.
But also the thing too is a lotof people get mixed up with
whole body donation and organdonation.
And I think that's why like onthe first page of the book maybe
I explain the differencebecause they are absolutely two
different worlds.
Lo Carmen (02:51):
My parents have always...
wanted to donate their bodiesand they've signed up.
My dad specifically has alwayssaid that he wants to be studied
for the effects of long-termmarijuana use on the brain.
Jackie Dent (03:03):
Well, you know, he should send his brain to the
brain.
I know that the University ofSydney has a brain, they want
brains, but also you can'tspecify what you want as well.
The anonymous stress again andagain that, you know, you've got
to hand over the whole body.
You can't, say, oh, I just wantmy legs studied or my foot
(03:23):
studied or my heart because it'squite a logistical exercise.
Like they'll have, for example,you know, and every university
is different, the way they dealwith the dead, but they'll have
like a project that they need alot of knees.
Lo Carmen (03:37):
Right.
Jackie Dent (03:38):
And then they'll have a project where– you know,
they're looking at specificthings.
So it's sort of there's a lotof planning that goes into it.
So you can't just say, yeah,you can look at my heart or my
marijuana brain.
That's pretty interesting,isn't it?
It is.
It's a real mystery about whathappens.
And I think, you know, I spoketo a really fascinating
(04:00):
anatomist in England, ClaireSmith, who's actually written a
book that's quite hardcore aboutand she goes into really
graphic details about whathappens and she believes that
people are a bit, wearrose-tinted glasses about body
donation.
They have sort of romanticideas about it because the
reality is it is a prettyfull-on thing.
(04:22):
Like you will be chopped up andyou will be, yeah, you will be
studied and dissected and cut upinto bits and, you know, that's
pretty edgy.
And...
But, yes, I think that's thething as well that triggered me
to get more into it is thatthere's a lot of academic papers
(04:43):
about anatomists, aboutstudents' feelings and how to
study the knee and things thatthey find.
But I guess because I've workedas a journalist for a long
time, I just felt like there wasa real gap in knowing what
happened in the space.
But I was also just reallyfascinated by all the characters
that work in that space and howthey feel about it, what it's
(05:03):
like day-to-day learningliterally working with death.
And what did you find?
Oh, look, I don't know if Icould generalise because I feel
like, you know, we're alldifferent and all the anatomists
are very different and some ofthem are very philosophical
about it.
And, you know, so I kind of wasdrawn to international
anatomists that, you know, workon death more kind of
(05:26):
philosophical areas about it.
The thing that really shockedme, it was kind of a turning
point when I was working on thebook actually, is because you
and I would think that theanatomy lab is just about death,
right?
Like it's all, there's justdead bodies there.
But I spoke to an anatomist inNew Zealand who said that it's
only probably in the last coupleof decades, in recent years,
(05:46):
that the anatomy lab hasactually become a place for
students to learn about death.
You know, like this is thereality of being a doctor is
that people will die and youwill have to look after the
dead.
And, you know, and I was like Iwould have thought death was
there the whole time.
But he said, no, it's like anew thing that we use the
(06:07):
anatomy lab as a place to teachstudents to reflect on death.
And, you know, anotheranatomist that I profiled,
Goran, who's, you know, We'vesince become, you know, we talk
now and meet up for coffees.
He did a philosophy degreebefore he became an anatomist.
And, you know, for him, hethinks that it is a very
(06:27):
powerful place to think aboutlife and death.
But then there's other peoplethat I met, sort of technicians
that You know, they just see itas they're doing their daily
work and they're chopping upbodies.
And the most fascinating thingthat's happened since the book
that came out is that I've beengetting kind of fan mail and
meeting people who have beencoming up to me at book events,
(06:50):
and they're young women who aretechnicians.
And also in the book I go outto a body farm, which is another
place where you can send yourbody now for forensic research,
and it's all women.
So that's the thing that Ifound really fascinating is that
women In terms of the carpentryof dissection, like chopping up
and doing the dissection, itseems to be becoming a female
(07:10):
profession, which I found superinteresting and something that I
want to follow up on.
Lo Carmen (07:14):
It is fascinating, you know, especially with the
whole death positive movementthat has so many female fans.
Jackie Dent (07:22):
Well, maybe because we give birth, like maybe we
can give death.
Yeah, we're just in touch withit all.
Yeah, so yeah, there isdefinitely, I mean, a lot of, I
know a few deathies in the deathworld and, you know, there's
just a lot of women in thisspace.
Lo Carmen (07:36):
Though mortuary science has traditionally been a
male-dominated field, thedemographics are rapidly
shifting, growing from 5% femaleenrolment in mortuary schools
in the 70s to 72% femaleenrolment in 2019.
A Californian college reportedin 2022 that their graduating
(07:57):
class was 100% female, with asignificant number of those
graduates also identifying asLatina or Black.
The rise of female morticianson social media platforms such
as the wonderful CaitlinDoughty, Lauren the Mortician
and really young 23-year-old GenZ morticians Amber Berrios from
(08:19):
the US and Sarah Broanda fromAustralia has helped to
demystify the profession andattract a whole new generation
of women.
Rowanda told the ABC, theindustry is full of young people
at the moment, particularlyyoung women, which I find pretty
cool.
Every one of the 11 newlyqualified embalmers at the
(08:43):
Australian Institute ofEmbalming National Conference in
March 2024 was female.
Women are reclaiming a rolethat they held historically
before the mid-19th century,where the intimate role of death
care was performed by women infamily homes.
This changed during the CivilWar as embalming became more
(09:03):
widespread so that soldiers'bodies could be preserved for
the travel home to theirfamilies.
Embalming required scientifictraining, which women were
systematically excluded from,leading to the male domination
of the funeral industry and themedical industry in general.
Medical schools in the UnitedStates didn't start admitting
(09:25):
women until around 1900, and itwasn't until after World War II
that we saw the first femalegraduates from Harvard Medical
School.
But way back in the 1350s, ayoung woman in Italy Alessandra
Ghiliani was assisting the famedanatomist Mondino De Luizzi at
(09:47):
the University of Bologna as adissector, even though this was
against the laws of the churchand the government at the time.
She managed to attend medicalschool by dressing as a man and
made discoveries about thepulmonary circulatory system
that preceded the officialaccepted discoveries by
researcher William Harvey by 300years.
(10:08):
It is believed that the churchat It should also be noted that
(10:28):
the anatomical world is becomingmore open in general, perhaps
more compassionate.
which has been reflected in theceremonies that have been held
by universities thankingfamilies and donors for their
contribution to medical science.
Unknown Speaker (10:48):
Beyond the realm of science, as I reflect
on the significance of each andevery donor, I'm reminded of the
rich diversity of humanexperiences that weaves us all
together.
It is only through the hands-onexperience without working with
our donors that we trulygrasp...
Lo Carmen (11:03):
In your book, you talk about some of the kind of
rituals that occur inuniversities where the staff and
the anatomists thank the bodiesor invite the families.
to some kind of ceremony whenthey've finished.
Could you describe thatprocess?
Jackie Dent (11:22):
Yeah, so it is a really fascinating development
in anatomy.
Body donation is a newdevelopment.
It's probably only been aroundfor the last hundred years
before they used to use thebodies of criminals and people
that died in mental hospitals.
And in fact, actually up untilthe 80s in Australia, if you
died in a mental hospital, youwere potentially dissected,
which I found prettyfascinating.
(11:42):
So anatomy and dissection hasalways had this sort of kind of
yucky air about it.
And curiously, if you gothrough the old newspapers in
Australia, if someone donatedtheir body, there was an article
about it.
There's a whole section of thebook where I look at the old
stories around body donors.
So what happened is that theanatomists had to meet You know,
(12:05):
they realized that the familiesof body donors were feeling
uncomfortable, like what's goingon there?
It is a very mysterious space.
So they began in Britain.
So what happens is that after,you know, the students are
finished with the bodies, theynow, and it's not all
universities do it, but it isslowly spread across the world
(12:25):
where they will have a ceremonywhere the students will talk
about, you know, thanking forthe gift of the body, the family
members can go.
During COVID, it was reallyhard.
We couldn't go up to Queenslandto a ceremony.
And so my mum and dad and Iwatched a ceremony via Zoom.
(12:46):
And it was really interesting,my dad's reaction.
I mean, my dad's in his 80s andhe said that at the end of it,
he said, oh, you know, when didthey start doing this?
You know, like, why didn'tanyone ever tell me about this
before?
You know, they just sort oftook my parents' bodies and we
just never really heard fromthem again.
We just got the ashes.
(13:06):
So I think it really is a wayfor, you know, the anatomists to
send a message to the communitythat we care about the bodies
and the donors.
And it's a way for thecommunity to learn a bit more
about what actually happens andthe appreciation that the
students have.
Yeah, I found that reallymoving reading that.
That's one of the things in thebook is that I wanted to make
(13:29):
the dissection of mygrandparents not so disgusting
and so yucky and actually giveagency to the dead and give
agency to the dissected becausethey're kind of these lost
characters in history.
Lo Carmen (13:43):
Yeah, and meaning and respect, it's...
I think it's really importantand revealing research that
you've done and I feel like itshould be required reading.
Jackie Dent (13:57):
Would you donate your body?
Lo Carmen (13:59):
No.
Jackie Dent (14:00):
No, it's interesting and how come?
Lo Carmen (14:02):
Because I want to be a record.
Jackie Dent (14:06):
Oh, right, okay.
Oh, great, okay, that'sinteresting.
Lo Carmen (14:10):
Yeah, I just, I don't know, I like novelty things.
Unknown (14:16):
LAUGHTER
Lo Carmen (14:21):
The other thing that I was especially moved by was
your description of where thesoul resides.
Could you talk a little bitabout that?
Jackie Dent (14:30):
Yeah, so that, I mean, it's a really interesting
thing, isn't it?
I don't know, are you areligious person?
Lo Carmen (14:35):
No, I'm not religious and I don't even know if I
believe in souls like I kind ofdo on a creative level.
I don't know.
in reality if I do or not.
Jackie Dent (14:46):
Yeah, so I'm probably the same.
Like it's sort of and so, youknow, it became this very
interesting thing about like whydon't I want to donate my body?
Like it's because I'll be dead.
You don't want to be cold.
Yeah, I don't want to be cold.
I go on about that a bit toomuch in the book probably.
But, yeah, so it was a veryinteresting thing.
It was like, well, obviously Ibelieve in some sort of
afterlife and, you know, thiswhole issue of the soul has
(15:09):
really plagued the anatomy labfor decades Well, and still
does, the fact that, you know,the body, what is the body?
What is a corpse?
And, you know, Leonardo daVinci, I found incredible, spent
30 years trying to find wherethe soul was and he identified
it at the base of the back ofthe neck.
How
Lo Carmen (15:30):
did he come to that?
Jackie Dent (15:32):
Well, he read a story that apparently when
Alexander the Great, or was itHannibal, wanted to kill an
out-of-control elephant, theywould spear it in that spot in
the back of their neck there.
So I think for some reason he–so there's a famous drawing
actually of where Leonardo, hepoints this is where the soul is
(15:53):
and it's sort of in the base ofyour skull area.
But, yeah, even today there's alot of research that says in
some anatomical papers about howthe idea of the soul really
impacts on students.
But also it's why in many partsof the world, we do now have an
international corpse tradebecause there's countries,
(16:16):
particularly in Middle Easterncountries, places where because
of islam they can't you knowpeople just aren't donating
bodies and so you have a bigtrade out of america india and
the philippines i didn't go intoit too much into the book
because it's like a whole otherfootball field of rabbit holes
but and it you know it requiresquite serious investigation but
(16:36):
yeah i mean the idea of of thepower of the body and you know
what happens to the soulafterwards definitely is a
reason why people don't donate,but also is a reason why
students can get quite upset.
And I found it reallyinteresting that people attach
certain meanings to differentparts of the body, like the
heart and the brain have moremeaning than like a kidney.
(16:58):
So students felt a lot ofintense feelings about brains.
Actually, the anatomists dotalk a lot about the brain.
I think the brain is a prettyweird...
I've watched a lot of videos ofbrains now and It's really
gloopy actually.
I thought it was much firmerbut it's actually like very soft
and cloudy.
Like it's sort of so, yeah,there's a lot of politics and
(17:21):
spiritual elements arounddissection and the soul
definitely was like a characterthat kept coming up.
Lo Carmen (17:28):
Yeah, it's so fascinating how in different
kinds of cultures people thebelief of how long the soul
resides in the body after deathbefore it's gone.
Like, you know, in Irishculture, you have to stay with
the dead body for three daysbecause that's how long it takes
for the soul to separate.
There's, you know, variousthoughts in various cultures
(17:52):
that are all quite different andI just find that quite
interesting at what point thebody just becomes a shell and no
longer holds all of those ideasthat a human being is made up
of.
Without dissection and thestudy of our bodies, where do
(18:12):
you think we would be today?
Jackie Dent (18:14):
Well, I think that's the thing that really,
the one thing I just came torealize is that the You know,
people find it really gross thatI've written this book about
dissection.
Well, you know, it's not alighthearted topic, is it?
Like I'm not doing a thing onmotivational, you know, how to
lose weight.
You know, it's like it's apretty edgy topic.
But the thing is it's thereason a lot of us are here.
(18:36):
Like it's the back room ofmedicine.
It's like, you know, if youpull back a curtain in a theatre
and behind you see all theactors and the costume makers
and, I mean, this is the backroom of medicine is dissection
and prosection.
Lo Carmen (18:49):
Yeah.
Jackie Dent (18:50):
you know, every weekend in Sydney, across
Australia, across the world,there are doctors practicing on
corpses.
And it really is a, you know,an intrinsic part of, the word
that came up for me was, thatpeople told was haptic.
So haptic is learning throughtouching.
So you actually do it with yourhands and, you know, it's how
(19:11):
you learn it.
And So there is sort of a shiftin anatomy where people,
there's all this amazingsoftware.
So I went to this Londonconference and it was quite
spectacular, you know, thecomputer imagery and there's
this thing called the anatomagetable.
I don't know if you've gottenup to that section in the book
yet where I go to thisconference in London and meet
all these internationalanatomists but there's this
(19:31):
anatomage table, you know, andit's like you flick through it.
The software is amazing and so,you know, some universities
argue you can just get by on thesoftware but it wasn't until I
actually ended up going to asurgical workshop in Sydney and
seeing on the Saturday it wasall heads that were being
dissected and then on the Sundayit was head and neck with ENT
(19:52):
training surgeons, that's when Irealised, wow, like they need
to get in there and they need tolearn the map of the face and
it's through touching the skinand getting in there that you, I
mean of course a dissected aperson, you know, a body donor
is embalmed.
So it's not, it doesn't havethat vitality and wildness that,
(20:16):
you know, when a surgeon'sdoing an operation, but you
could really see that bytouching the body and learning
the three-dimensional that thesedoctors were learning.
And I think I made the point inthe book, it's like being a
writer.
It isn't until you've actuallyexperienced something that you
can really write about it.
And it was seeing thatdissection workshop over that
weekend it was very confrontingfor me because I'm like super
(20:40):
squeamish and I thought I wasgonna like freak out but it
wasn't until then that it alljust sort of came together going
out to the forensic facility inthe Blue Mountains and seeing I
went out there twice and seeingthe scientists at work and
seeing all the bodies out thereand the police and what they
were doing you know it waspretty uh Yeah, you can see that
(21:01):
these donors are actually,yeah, they totally are
contributing to research.
Forensic
Lo Carmen (21:09):
Anthropology Research Labs, more colloquially known
as Body Farms, are outdoor siteswhere decomposing bodies can be
studied in a range ofenvironments and circumstances
to help advance scientificknowledge and solve crimes.
The first body farm was foundedin 1987 by anthropologist and
(21:31):
human decomposition researchpioneer William M.
Bass at the University ofTennessee in Knoxville.
As of 2023, there are currentlyeight body farms across the US.
One in Canada, one inAustralia, with another one in
progress, and one in theNetherlands.
Donated bodies are used formultiple studies.
(21:53):
As they break down, changes areobserved and documented that
can be accessed by researchersaround the world, helping to
improve methods ofidentification and time of death
determinations.
These environments provideunique learning opportunities
for law enforcement Thank you.
(22:13):
also helping to stop mistakesbeing made in evidence recovery
that could render cases uselessin court.
The Australian Federal Policeconduct disaster recovery
training for mass casualtyevents like plane crashes and
bombings using real cadavers sothat they're more equipped and
(22:38):
prepared when faced with thereal thing.
Other studies includeexamination of insects and
bacteria and decomposition invarious surroundings, including
out in the open in shallow ordeep graves, in cars, covered in
plastic, in concrete, inextreme heat or cold climates,
all helping researchers learnmore about determining time of
(23:00):
death.
Further research projectsexamine whether fluids produced
by decaying bodies affect thesurrounding plant material, how
medications affectdecomposition, the impact of
animal scavengers, infrared anddrone detection, cadaver dog
training.
At the University of Tennessee,where decomposition is
(23:21):
complete, which generally takesa year or so, the skeletons
become part of the Bass DonatedSkeletal Collection, a database
available to researchers in theUS and globally using 3D
imagery.
It's been estimated that theUniversity of Tennessee was
responsible for the education ofat least quarter of the
(23:43):
board-certified forensicanthropologists in the United
States.
A representative from theuniversity said, The ultimate
goal is to learn the numerousthings that can happen to bodies
in various contexts.
So when our scientists need totestify in court, all of these
variables have been studied andit's not just conjecture.
That's what really drives us,the data, the science and the
(24:06):
reliability of testimony.
Among the donors are policeofficers, service members,
healthcare professionals andteachers.
A representative from theuniversity also says they feel
this is a way they can still beteaching after they're gone.
Apparently pre-donors to bodyfarms tend to be very
enthusiastic.
Many have an interest inforensic science and in helping
(24:29):
the criminal justice system.
Sometimes it's because they orsomebody else they know has been
a victim or has otherwise beenaffected.
Some universities host eventsfor pre-donors where they meet
forensic anthropologists and getto tour the labs.
Within 24 hours of a donor'sdeath, Their body will be taken
to the mortuary at a universityand 12 hours later they will be
(24:53):
on the body farm where they willgo on to contribute to some
world leading research.
Professor Shari Forbes,responsible for establishing the
2016 body farm in rural NewSouth Wales as well as the body
farm in Quebec where she iscurrently working says we are
forever indebted to the donorsand their families.
(25:15):
We understand that it's anunusual Thank you.
A person who wants to donatetheir body must provide written
consent before their death.
(25:35):
Alternatively, the senioravailable next of kin is able to
provide consent in writingafter death if the deceased had
not during their lifetimeexpressed an objection.
I'm sure there's differentrules in every country, so you
will need to research what ispertinent to you.
I heard Shari Forbes talkingabout how important it was to
(25:58):
her to help families dealingwith children or loved ones that
had been murdered or lost tothe elements in some other way,
that that was kind of what wasbehind the idea of the facility
of studying decomposition innatural surroundings and to help
advance that kind of forensicresearch.
Jackie Dent (26:19):
There's actually some quite interesting critiques
of these facilities as wellwhere the fact is people wonder
how effective the science isbecause And you replicate
every...
Yeah, like you die in differentcircumstances.
Like, you know, if you die inthe Canadian Rockies compared to
dying in Western Sydney, theway the body decomposes is very
(26:42):
different.
So I found that kind ofinteresting that there is some
debate around...
the worthworthiness of thescience.
Lo Carmen (26:49):
But I guess if there was more of these facilities all
around the world and they allshared research, then that would
be the ideal.
Jackie Dent (26:57):
Well, the thing I found really incredible about
the facility actually was justhow beautiful we are when, I
mean, it was confronting, butjust at the point the colours of
the bodies were exactly thesame as the bush.
It was like a FrederickMcCubbin painting and, you know,
the browns and the greens andthe mould and, you know, it was
(27:20):
really quite beautiful actuallyhow we just sort of mould into
the exact same colours of thebush.
Yeah, so I had some pretty likekind of cosmic, the first time
I went to the body farm thatnight I had like really intense
dreams and, you know, obviouslymy brain was sort of really
trying to flood out and washaround What I'd seen
Sam Shinazzi (27:41):
Your body is a wonderland Your body is a
wonderland I'll use my handsYour body is a wonderland
Jackie Dent (27:57):
I just kept thinking, going back to this
idea of we are in the world.
Do you know the feministphilosopher Val Plumwood?
Lo Carmen (28:08):
No, I don't.
Jackie Dent (28:09):
Right.
She's a very importantAustralian feminist
eco-philosopher.
She died, but she had thisincredible experience where she
survived a crocodile attack.
She wrote this famous essaythat you should read.
She's since died, but she wasat the forefront of
eco-philosophy and talked abouthow humans are have this
arrogance about you know wethink we're better at the top of
(28:30):
the food chain but you knowlike when i went out to the body
farm and saw the way that weare when we dissolve into the
world uh i could really see whatval was talking about you know
that we are in it you knowthere's this sort of ashes to
ashes you know worms and gasesyou know we are quite elemental
(28:51):
so
Lo Carmen (28:53):
99% of the mass of the human body is made up of six
elements.
Oxygen, carbon, hydrogen,nitrogen, calcium and
phosphorus.
Although we contain detectabletraces of around 60 chemical
elements.
With most of these elementsneeded for life also commonly
(29:15):
found in the Earth's crust.
The adult human body iscomposed of around 53% water.
The rest is proteins, fats,DNA, hydroxyapatite,
carbohydrates, ions and gases,or in more recognisable terms,
muscle, fat, bone, teeth,tissue, nerves, hormones,
(29:38):
fluids, gas and air.
Despite the fact that we areall fundamentally and
elementally the same, Learningto navigate and understand how
our endless individual quirksand differences work is what
makes the act of donating a bodyto medical science such an
important, valuable and generousact at no cost to you because
(30:02):
all the science indicates youwon't be there.
We'll go deeper into thelife-giving importance of organ
donation in another episode, butlet me take this opportunity to
stress that we should allregister as organ donors,
unless, of course, you have aparticular cultural issue with
it.
All major religions, includingChristianity, Islam, Buddhism,
(30:24):
Hinduism and Judaism, supportorgan and tissue donation, and
donation specialists can helpyour family to support your
religious and culturalrequirements.
One organ donor can save thelives of up to seven people but
only around 2% of people who diein Australian hospitals meet
(30:45):
the criteria required to be anorgan donor.
If you are able to be an organdonor, your body can still be
donated to medical scienceafterwards.
Advanced planning is importantfor making body donations, whole
body donations.
Please make sure that thepeople close to you know your
wishes and that you'veregistered your intent.
(31:07):
This will not only ease theemotional stress for those that
love you at the time of death,but will ensure that your body
donation will provide thegreatest value to science and to
patients in the future.
There are other bonuses.
Donating your body means therewill be no cost for your
cremation or disposition, whichis why it has often been a
(31:30):
popular and practical choice forthose of us less financially
secure.
And there will likely be alovely service and gratitude
ceremony provided by theuniversity or facility your body
is donated to, quite possiblywith string quartets, speeches,
sandwiches and flowers.
All that and...
(31:52):
You're helping humanity.
Something to think about, isn'tit?
Thank you so much to JackieDent for sharing all those
fascinating insights.
And honestly, her book, TheGreat Dead Body Teachers, is a
wild and fascinating ridethrough historical and modern
anatomy and science.
Funny with a beating personalheart.
(32:13):
Our conversation was lightlyedited for clarity and time.
Death Is Not The End waswritten, recorded and edited by
me, your host, Lo Carmen.
If you'd like to talk aboutthings we've discussed today,
please head tolocarmen.substack.
and we can get into it there.
(32:35):
Further details and links forthings we talked about today are
in the show notes.
Thank you to Sam Shannazzi forrecording a porch version of
Your Body is a Wonderland,originally by John Mayer, for
this episode.
The Death is Not the End thememusic was composed, performed
and recorded by Peter Head.
(32:57):
The Death Is Not The End stingis from the Bob Dylan song, also
performed and recorded by PeterHead.
The repertoire on thisrecording is licensed by APRA
AMCOS.
The artwork used on the podcastwas created by Craig Waddell.
Death Is Not The End is a BlackTambourine Productions
(33:17):
production.
Please do rate and review theshow wherever you listen.
If you enjoyed our episodetoday, it really helps other
people find it.
And see you on the other side.
Sam Shinazzi (33:29):
And if you want love, we'll make it swim in the
deep sea The blankets take allyour big plans and break them.
(33:57):
This is bound to take a while.
Your body is a wonderland.
Your body is a wonderland.
I'll use my hands.
Your body is a wonderland.
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