New York’s Monumental Bill - Episode 25 with Mandi Zucker - Death With Dignity Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Hasban Shaikh (00:20):
Hello, friends.
Welcome back to the Death withDignity Podcast.
This podcast recorded one daybefore the three-year
anniversary of Andrew's passing.
We missed you, Andrew.
You've left quite the legacy,and we're grateful that you were
a part of our lives.
We also have some great news toshare.
Medical aid in dying has thepotential to pass in two major

(00:42):
states, New York and Illinois.
In New York, it sits onGovernor Kathy Hookel's desk,
and Illinois, the decision is upto Governor J.B.
Pritzker.
Shout out to those whoseadvocacy efforts have led us to
this point.
This includes our very own,Susie Flack, and countless
others, such as DeborahRobertson, who the law is

(01:03):
actually named after inIllinois.
I believe it's called the Deb'sLaw.
The stakes feel high.
If the bill passes in New York,then Chicago, Los Angeles, and
New York City would all havemedical aid in dying.
So that's why today's guest,Mandy Zucker, is exactly the
person we want to talk to.
She's the executive director ofEnd of Life Choices New York.

(01:24):
She goes into what herorganization aims to achieve
with this bill.
She kind of gives us an idea ofwhich way Governor Kathy Hokel
might also be leaning.
And we also spent some timediscussing grief and her
background with supportingpeople during the end of life.
Let's get into it.
Yeah, I was actually justwatching your interview on Fox,

(01:46):
uh Fox 5 New York.
What's interesting is that uhyou were actually in um on on
the title of the of the piece,you were featured, but Mamdani
came on before you.

Mandi Zucker (01:57):
Um I know, I saw him walking out as we were
walking in.

Oh, okay.
Have you had any in uminteraction with him?
Because we've learned that he'sactually a sponsor on the bill.

He is a sponsor on the bill.
Um, and if I had a chance tosay thank you for sponsoring the
bill, I would have, but he wassurrounded by you know, a team.

Yeah, he's definitely like a mini celebrity
now.

I know.

He is whose profile has like really uh
arisen, I would say.

Um it was interesting because I saw that
too, that like my you know,piece was sort of highlighted
and he had like 15 minutes and Ihad three minutes, so um I'm
sure that uh you know his uhappearance brought more viewers
than mine did.

Well, yeah, but they but they uh featured you,
so that's pretty cool.
Um Yeah, that was great.
Um you're probably like used todoing media rounds by now, huh?
I was like, she probably hassome good media trading because
I felt like you were on messageand you said all the right
things.

Did you?
Oh well, I've got a a great PRconsultant who's uh making sure
I stay on point.

Um uh Ross, right?
I believe.
Yep.
Yeah, I thought that was cool.
Um it's cool that people stillwork with PR people.
I feel like with the internetand uh just how um how like
media works now, um PR is notthought of anymore.
Everyone just does itthemselves.

Well, you could, but you don't get interviews on
Fox Five like that.
They'd have to find me.

For sure.
Um I I I have to ask, so howdid you uh fall fall into this?
Um into this role that you'rein, you know, being on Fox Five
and being a voice for maid inNew York.

Yeah.
Um I always say it sort offound me.
Um I am a social worker and mymy background, my bachelor's
degree is in child development.
Um I wanted to work with kids.
I wanted the thought of workingin the field of death and dying
did not cross my mind when Iwas, you know, in school.

(04:12):
But I um my very first job outof college was working in a
nursing home, not a nursinghome, sorry, in a hospital,
selling.
I always said selling nursinghomes.
So um basically people wouldcome in, they would have had a
stroke, um, and they couldn't gohome.
So I would help them find anursing home.
It was not my dream job, it wasjust my very first job.

(04:32):
And then I thought I got mydream job.
I thought I got a job in aschool, which is what I wanted.
Um, and as I was leaving, likeliterally on my last day,
somebody I knew that worked inhospice said, you know, we have
this children's bereavementprogram.
Do you want to just stay on perdiem and do some children's
bereavement work?
Um so I said, sure.

(04:54):
I hated working in the schools.
It was paperwork.
I barely saw children, and Iloved working in the hospice.
It just changed the course ofmy career.
I felt like we were reallymaking a difference when we're
working with people, um, youknow, either at the end of their
lives or when they're grieving.

(05:15):
They were so grateful for thesupport, and nobody wanted to be
there, but they really feltlike, you know, so glad that
there was people out there thatwanted to support them.
And I tried three differentschools.
I thought maybe it was just theschool I was in.
It was not, it was just not forme.
Um, and then I ended up workingin the hospice for about 12

(05:37):
years doing uh bereavement andhospice work, and that's really
where I found my passion.
Wow, so you actually startedworking with kids in the field
with like it didn't even crossmy mind that children could be
affected by death or thatchildren could die.
Like I thought that only likethat only happens to old people.

(05:59):
I don't know, you know, my18-year-old brain wasn't uh, you
know, expanded enough to knowthat unfortunately we're all
affected by death and dying.

Well, someone in that like organization uh must
have uh seen something in you,you know, to put like put you um
with you know, kids that aregrieving or people that have
lost kids.
What do you think that was?

I think I do have an ability to connect to people.
I am a um I like to listen topeople's stories.
I you know, I think of myselfas an empath.
And I think, you know, whenyou're really talking about
things like death and dying,like what could be more

(06:45):
personal?
What can what can make you feelmore connected to another human
being when you're talking aboutsomething so intimate?
And that's where I think Ishine.
I think I feel uh the mostalive, interestingly, when we
talk about uh the things thatare really, you know, the most
difficult.

(07:05):
And often that is death anddying.

Yeah, I've thought about that a lot too.
Things just become real, and Ifeel like they become clear in
those moments, you know, whenpeople are are grieving or
they're going through somethingand you're speaking to them.
It's almost like an honor to bearound them and in their space
and um be a listener or be, youknow, a person that can comfort
them, or maybe they can umcomfort you in like a weird way,

(07:31):
you know, by even yeah, youknow, letting you be in their
space.
Um, I always think of thehospice nurses that were around
when um Andrew took the medicalaid and dying medication, they
were in the room with us, andthey were just kind of in the
corner, and uh they were likecrying with us too, though, and
they were just um just so partof that moment, and everyone was

(07:54):
like grateful that they werethere.
They didn't feel like strangersin a room, you know, and uh
their ability.
I just thought that was like umI hate to use this word, uh,
but it was like magical, likethe energy that they gave and
the comfort that they gave, andthat changed my uh view of
professions and hospice nurseslike after that.

(08:16):
Um, but and but like anyways,go on.
You started working in likehospice.
I I think you said 12 years,like um after that.
Then how did medical aid anddying find you, or where did
your life take you?

So um I left the job in hospice because of my
husband.
His job took him into New YorkCity and we were moving.
Um, I was in New Jersey at thetime, and we were moving into
the city for a couple of years.
So I wasn't really looking fora job for those two years
because I knew it was going tobe a short-term situation, but I
did want to stay sort ofinvolved.

(08:51):
And I don't even know if Googleexisted at that point, but
somehow on that Wide World Web,I found End of Life Choices New
York.
Uh, the executive director atthe time was David Levin, who
continues to be a consultant forus.
Um, and he introduced me to it.
So I called him and said, youknow, do you have any volunteer

(09:12):
work?
What are you guys doing?
Uh, how can I support people atthe end of their lives?
So he um he allowed me to dosome public speaking, talking to
basically anybody around NewYork that would listen to us
about um advocating for yourend-of-life needs, pain
management, what what it meansto stop eating and drinking or

(09:35):
withdrawing medical treatment ifyou choose to do that.
Medical-aiden dying was clearlynot a thing, but it was in the
back of our minds, we werestarting to think about it.
So he introduced me to thetopic, which I became a strong
proponent of immediately, uh,probably because of my work in
hospice, where I saw many, manybeautiful, peaceful deaths and

(09:58):
occasional deaths that weren't.
So even hospice, which I am astrong proponent for, didn't
always do what we wanted it todo.
And even then, sometimes peoplewould, you know, be waiting for
their family members and they'ddie 10 minutes before their
person got there.
And that's awful.
You know, that happened to meactually.

(10:19):
My dad was in hospice and had abeautiful death, but I left the
room for 20 minutes to call mysisters, and that's when he
died.
And I just wanted to hold hishand when he died so badly, and
I wasn't there.
I don't know if he would havechosen medical aid in dying or
not, but I really wish that wecould have planned it so that

(10:40):
the people that wanted to be inthe room with him could have
been.
So that's when I became astrong proponent, and I stayed,
you know, I volunteered for Endof Life Choices New York for
those two years.
I continued to stay involvedwith the organization abreast of
the things that were happening.
I would call on thisorganization when I was working
for other organizations toeducate our communities.

(11:02):
And then uh the opportunitybecame available for me to
become the executive directorand I jumped.
Actually, I jumped twice.
They didn't hire me the firsttime.
I interviewed probably like sixor seven years ago.
I didn't get the job.
And then I applied again.
They uh they called me thesecond time and said, Can you
please apply again?

(11:23):
Uh and that time they theyrealized their first mistake is
what I like to say, and thenthey fixed it.

It seems like you, I mean, whether you knew it
consciously or not, uh, eversince you got into a
bereavement, this was like yourpath.
Um, you know, this is this iswhat you wanted to do.
And I'm sure even like thedecision to be like, I want to
become the executive director,that's like not just a job
thing.
That's like a mindset and lifechoice thing, you know?

It is.
And it's, you know, especiallyright now because we are on the
precipice of passing this bill,it is a tremendous
responsibility, um, but also anincredible honor.
I mean, I really do feel likeif we can get this done for New
York, we're not just doing itfor New York.
We're doing it for the country.

(12:15):
First of all, because there'sno residency requirement in our
bill.
So, you know, there's a fewstates right now that don't have

a residency requirement: Vermont, Oregon, and a couple of (12:22):
undefined
other states that have veryliberal um residency
requirements.
But New York is going to be theeasily the most accessible
state.
I mean, it is, you know,there's three airports, there's
it's a, you know, it's a hugestate, there's a ton of
resources here.
So we know that we will beserving people from around the

(12:44):
country.
And that is a huge, you know,again, responsibility and honor.

So let's talk, yeah, let's talk about uh like
New York now.
So just to give uh the audiencesome frame of like reference,
New York, just the city of NewYork, I think, um has a $90
million budget, or yeah, I think$90 billion, I'm sorry, I
think.
Not million.
Um it's just like one of thebiggest cities or states, too,

(13:11):
obviously.
And you're working on the billin the state, and the bill has
passed the state houses and isnow on the governor's desk.
Uh, do you want to talk aboutwhat it took to uh get there and
just talk about what's likehappening in uh New York?

Sure.
So it's not actually on thegovernor's desk yet.
I'll talk a little bit aboutthat, but um it's been signed
through the assembly and theSenate.
And it has taken 10 years.
Actually, David Levin, the oldexecutive director that
introduced me to thisorganization, initiated uh this
bill about I don't even know ifit was 1015, it's probably about

(13:49):
10 years ago, um, asking AmyPaulin to be the lead sponsor in
the assembly, which she agreedto do and has continued to
champion it uh this whole time.
So um, so we started back then.
We knew it wasn't passing 10years ago, but we've been
working for a very long time.
People have been working waylonger than I have on this issue

(14:12):
to um educate our legislators,to educate the public, uh, to
make sure that all of thesafeguards that are necessary
are in the bill.
It is a very safe, clean bill.
We know we've done all thisresearch on all of the other
states that have a bill likethis.
So we have the benefit of allof that experience and knowledge

(14:34):
that we've put into this bill.
And now it's been signed by theSenate and the Assembly.
We are waiting to put it on thegovernor's desk.
So she has basically until theend of the year to ask for
bills.
So once she gets the bill andit's on her desk, then she has
10 days to sign or diveto.

(14:55):
So right now she hasn't askedfor the bill yet, and we don't
want to send it to her whenshe's not ready to look at it
because you know she has otherpriorities and things that are
happening.
So we don't want to um send hera bill that she doesn't have
time to review.
So we're waiting for her, butshe has to do it by December
31st.

Okay, so is that like a provision or like a this
a like a rule?

I'm just a social worker.
I don't not like a politician.
I don't know exactly I I knowthat song about how to make a
bill turn into law, but um, I'mnot exactly sure.
I mean, I've learned so muchabout all of the politics of
this, but I think that'sgenerally the way that it works
is that the assembly and theSenate sign, pass bills, then

(15:41):
the governor calls for bills,and then they send them to her
once she calls for them, andthen once she has them, she has
10 days to review, uh, sign orveto.

So um what do you what information do you have
about um her her like views onthis topic and on the bill?

So she's been pretty quiet, although I don't
think that that's unusual.
Um I I feel like she will makethe right decision.
I think she is a strongchampion of choice of women's
reproductive rights.
This medical aid and dying isreally just an extenuation of

(16:21):
that.
And actually, I almost feellike it's the other way around.
Like medical aid and dying iseven less controversial, in my
opinion, than abortion, which Ialso am a strong supporter of.
But um it's literally your ownbody that you are contemplating
hastening death for, and yourown body that is already

(16:42):
actively dying.
So um it's it seems so simpleto me to to allow people to make
choices about their own bodythat is literally failing them.
Um none of the people that areusing medical aid and dying want
to die.
They all want to live, but theydon't have that option.
They want to be able to takecontrol and um use their own

(17:06):
autonomy to make a decisionabout where, when, and with whom
uh they will be with when theydie, which is something that
they don't want to do.

Yeah, they want to live.
I feel like that's the simplestthing that you can like explain
to people.
They're there, they would doanything to have what you have
uh, you know, and not want to dothat or you know, take this on.
And again, me and like Andrewused to talk about that a lot,
and that line has always stayedwith me.
That's a that's a that's a thedifference between someone who's
you know depressed or somethingand wants to like end their

(17:36):
life compared to like medicalaid and dying.
You know, I'll talk to uh I'llI'll explain um medical aid and
dying to people and they'll belike, oh, like suicide.
I'm like, no, let's stop rightthere.
Um let me explain what it is,and yeah, I think that I think
uh that last thing you said umreally explains it well.
Yeah, I I think it's reallyinteresting how politicians uh

(17:59):
don't want to talk about this,like like whether you're
progressive on the center,obviously on the right, you
definitely don't want to talkabout this, but there is support
for it.
Like Newsom uh made theCalifornia provision um
permanent.
Um there's you know Mamdani'svery progressive about stuff,
but no one asks him aboutmedical aid and dying.

(18:21):
I mean, all the debates,everything you heard, they're
asking him about support forother uh countries, but it's
like it's like a topic that noone actually wants to talk
about, but almost becauseeverybody knows it's important
and you just want to hope, youknow.
Um yeah, like and and and and Ithink even like pundits online,
so I watch a lot of uhpolitical stuff.

(18:43):
All they know about is likeCanada.
I think a lot of people aren'teven aware who are in the pundit
class or polit or politiciansthat it's uh it's already
available in the largest statein the US, you know.
And if New York uh passes it,it'll be New York and California
will both have medical aid indying.
I think I can't.

(19:03):
I mean, uh that would be likeamazing, and it just shows how
actually popular this issue is.
And we're currently in kind ofa more right-wing um, you know,
government, if if I can bepolitical for a second.
I think um who is it, NeilGorsett has written a book about
how he's like opposed to uhmedical aid and dying.

But even with that, I think And the reality is
like can even you knowRepublican supporters like let
me say that differently.
Republicans are actuallysupportive of this bill.
It's Republican legislatorsthat are not supportive.
So, you know, we've pulledevery demographic, and by two to

(19:46):
one, every demographic,including Republicans, are
supportive of this bill.
It's just our Republicanlegislators that are not
supportive of it, which is sointeresting because they are
supposed to be representingtheir constituents, but on this
issue they are not, and that'svery frustrating.

Yeah, they talk about 80-20 issues.
I feel like this is an 80-20issue if you talk to somebody in
person.
You know, if you go online orsomething like that, I I'm sure
it would be there'd be like alot of noise.
But I have just every time I Ispeak to somebody and you just
have a reasonable convo withthem, um, they're like, Yeah,
that makes sense.
You know, I might not agreewith this or that, or I might

(20:24):
think that this could happen.
But I feel like the support forthis has been built over years
or decades of people actuallyhaving to suffer a loss.
It's a little sad to think ofit this way, but this the
support for this for these billsand uh these like issues are
built on on the backs of thegriefs that people have
suffered, and doesn't matterwhen you're you're left, center,

(20:47):
right, when you see anindividual go through it and you
know that there could have beenanother way, you know, you
convince one person at a time,and I really feel like that's
how it's gone.
Also, in the state of Illinois,uh, it's also on the a
governor's desk.
So that would be pretty wildthat in the last what three,
four years that uh goes fromCalifornia to New York to like
Illinois.

(21:07):
I mean, I feel like it's almostcountrywide at that point,
especially if states like Oregonand New York don't have a
residency requirement.

That's true.
Although I do think every stateshould have this just because
it will be available in NewYork, it's still not accessible
to everybody.
You know, if you live in even,you know, Massachusetts, it's a
big state.
So getting to New York can bereally difficult and expensive.
And, you know, a lot of peoplecan't just afford to travel

(21:39):
across, you know, anywherereally, um, find a new
residence.
You have to be somewhere.
You can't, you know, within thelaw, even in New York, if it
passes, you can't just show upin New York, get the medicine,
go sit on a park bench and die.
You have to have a place to be,and you have to have doctors.
And I, you know, it's actuallyreally important that is that

(22:00):
it's available in every state.
People want to be able to diein their own homes.
I spoke to a woman.
Um, actually, I didn't speak toher.
I spoke to her husband.
She went to Oregon to die.
She's from New York.
She was actually an interiordecorator.
She built her home from theground up, like literally brick
by brick.
I I've seen the pictures.

(22:22):
This gorgeous home where shepainstakingly picked every
picture frame, every, you know,coaster on every single little
coffee table, like everythingwas so thoughtful.
Um, and she couldn't die in ownher own space.
Like she wanted to be in thatspace that she loved so much,

(22:43):
and she had to pick up.
And fortunately for her, shehad the funds to be able to go
to Oregon and find a place tobe, but that is not the case for
most people, and she didn'twant to do that.
She was sick, she wanted tostay home and you know, visit
with her friends and all thethings that we want to do before
we die.

(23:03):
And traveling across thecountry to find a bed that you
can die in is not high on mostpeople's lists.

Yeah, um, it sounds like barbaric to me once
we actually start talking aboutthe details of what an
individual had to go through,um, like what how they have to
change their life.
Um, I mean, Andrew went throughthe same thing.
He couldn't go back to his homestate of like Illinois and just
hang out with his family and umyou know go that way.

(23:30):
Uh, if he wanted to availmedical aid in dying, he had to
stay in California.
Again, he was fortunate enoughwhere it like worked out for him
and he was in a place where hisfamily could come stay with
him.
But man, that's a really awfulchoice.
Um you know, and I think again,we uh we are a society that
really doesn't want to talkabout death and even you know um

(23:52):
like discuss it, but until youknow somebody, and even though
it happens for everybody, itjust seems like uh this kind of
stuff is not in the publicconsciousness.
Um, I also want to ask youabout so one of the things with
Governor Hokel, it seems like,um, that may make her sway to

(24:13):
the other side is that she is uhshe describes herself as a
devout Catholic, I think.
And one of the one of the oneof the groups that is opposed to
this in every state, it's likethe same battle in every state,
is the Catholic Church.
Um and I'm sure that they havea lot of power in New York, I
mean her being a governor andand all.

(24:34):
What do you think about umtheir role in all of this?
And have you spoken to like theopposition like members?
What do they say to you?

Yeah, so first of all, again, sort of like I said
about Republicans, Catholicssupport this bill, um, just like
they support abortion.
So I wish again that theCatholic Church would listen to
their own constituents, but I'mnot Catholic, so I don't

(25:05):
understand too much of that.
But but Catholics do definitelysupport this bill.
So that's the first thing.
Um Governor Hochel has made itclear she actually, you know,
she said very little about thisbill, but she did make one
comment that when somebody askedabout this bill in which way
she's leaning, she saidsomething like I'm not going to

(25:27):
allow my religion to play a partin politics, and I will make a
decision that is right for myconstituents in my state.
And I so appreciated thatcomment.
And I believe her because she'sdone that before with things
like abortion.
So I have no idea how she feelspersonally about abortion, but

(25:48):
she has been a strong proponentof allowing women to make
choices about their own bodiespolitically, and that's the
right political decision.
So I do hope and expect thatshe will come to that same
conclusion regarding medical aidand dying.

Yeah, I I think that the opposition is probably
um just talking to her about youknow what really trips me out
is I was watching yourinterview, and it's so
interesting how successful ummedical aid and dying has been
in like America.
I think you were saying it'sit's been around for decades,
and we really don't have any uhreports of like abuse.

(26:25):
The reports of abuse apparentlycome from Canada, which has um
passed it as well.
So no one has any stories fromhere, but they try to use Canada
as an example, and I'm not evensure of how real those stories
are actually like actually are.
I think I know their program isway more like like like
expanded, um, and they we go tothe uh a slippery slope fallacy.

(26:47):
Um but I feel like yeah, it'sjust been so successful in the
US that um the people that havebeen behind this, it's you know,
it yeah, it's just it's it'sjust amazing.
I mean, what we're really doingright now is not letting poor
people have access to this.
Absolutely.

And I would say as far as the coercion and abuse
that people talk about, if thereis any coercion or abuse, it's
exactly the opposite.
What it is, is people arecoerced not to use medical aid
and dying.
So we know that of the peoplethat get the drugs that are
eligible for medical aid anddying, only about a third of

(27:25):
them use it.
And not to say that all of themare coerced not to use it, but
that is more often the case thanpeople who are coerced into
using it.
So um they talk about coercionand abuse, but really it's the
exact opposite of what they'resaying, that people are going to
be, they say people are gonnabe coerced into taking drugs,
and it's exactly the oppositewhere family members are saying,

(27:47):
please give me one more day,you know, don't do this today,
then they wait too long and thenthey're not able to use the
drugs.
So um there's not a a push toto utilize this option um in a
way that you know this slipperyslope people talk about.

Yeah, first of all, I think the comfort that uh
people have just by having likethe medicine.
I mean, we can't imagine thekind of suffering and pain that
people go through who havecancer or some kind of other
terminal like illness that'sdestroying their body.
I mean, literally, um, I get acold sometimes, and I'm like, oh
man, I don't feel like doinganything like today.

(28:27):
And um, Andrew talked aboutthis a lot, and I I've talked to
other people, just thatcomfort.
But even just having themedicine, it's not like people
are like, I want to take it.
I I I have a bad day, I'm gonnatake it.
I I always talk about Andrew'sstories like he had the
medication and he did end upusing it, but I feel like he
used it almost near the end ofhis life, anyways.

(28:48):
He was in, you know, um hiscondition was uh deteriorating,
and so you know, everyone has awill to live, and uh so people
like understand that kind ofmakes me uh I guess it gets me a
little angry.

Um and the thing about Canada too is like this is
the only law that I'm aware ofwhere people compare us to
Canada because the United Stateshas tons of laws about lots of
things, and every country andsometimes every state has
different laws.
And I don't know why people arecomparing us to Canada because

(29:24):
Canada's its own place, it hasnothing to do with the laws in
the United States, and there'sbeen no slippery slope.
Our laws, you know, our billwas modeled after Oregon, which
was, you know, enacted 30 yearsago.
Nothing's really changed.
Like people keep saying we'regonna turn into Canada.
Their laws are much moreliberal.

(29:45):
We haven't in 30 years made anyreal significant changes to
these bills.
And I see no indication that wewill be.

Yeah, I haven't heard of any state trying to add
like stuff like uh uh Canada toIt's been pretty much
straightforward.
You need to see somebody.
Yeah.
Um, you have to be mentallysound, and it really you have to
have six months or less tolive.
Um and there's yeah, no one hastried.
Yeah, I would say even theprogressives in this country
have not tried to add likelittle provisions.

(30:16):
Everyone's been on messagebecause they realize how
important this is.
Um Yeah.

I mean, that's the big difference between the
United States and Canada is thesix-month provision.
So in the United States, everysingle state has a six-month
provision.
Canada doesn't have that.
Their eligibility requirementis not about prognosis, it's
about quality of life.
Um, it's I think it's called uminterminable suffering.

(30:41):
Um something like that.
That is not the requirementthat we have in the United
States.
In any state, I I am not awareof any um legislation that's
been put forth to change thatrequirement.
Uh, no one's trying to do that.

For sure.
Um Yeah.
I'm I'm I'm really hoping that,and I'm surprised.
I really hope that like Mamdanigets asked about this or
something.
Um, you know, because I reallythink one of the things that can
convince Hokel, or maybe she'sshe's already leaning this way,
is well, she's gonna have somechallengers, she's gonna have
challengers from the right aswell.
I think she's kind of worriedabout her job, and uh, she got

(31:20):
booed at like a Mamdani likerally, I think, or something.
Um, so I think she understandsthat uh, you know, she needs to
make decisions that are morepopulist.
And I'm hoping that somebodyasked Mamdani about this soon.

And uh I mean I should have I should have
screamed to him on my path whenyou have to be in the hallway.

It it you know the amount of suffering that's
on the line is so immense thatit it it it does like blow my
mind that nobody is like, hey,what about this one issue, you
know, or they didn't even try toattack him for this, like you
know, yeah.
It's it's it's what's alsointeresting is this is not an
attack uh a vector for theright, even.
Like I said, no one wants totalk about this issue pro or

(31:59):
con.
Um but yeah, uh switching fromthe bill, one of the things I I
I really was interested in wasyour uh work on grief.
Um you know, grief is such a uhlike a powerful topic.
I feel like people don't knowhow to like uh navigate it, and
it seems like you've spent a lotof time talking to people of

(32:20):
all ages um after they've lostsomeone and they're going
through this um pro process.
Um could you speak to that alittle bit?

Yeah, I mean again, that's how I got into
this.
Um, you know, the hospice hadsaid we have this children's
bereavement program, so it waskids who had lost either a
parent or a grandparent.
Um and like I said, I wanted towork with kids, but working in
the schools, I didn't actuallyhave a lot of opportunity to

(32:49):
work with children.
And working in a children'sbereavement program gave me an
incredible opportunity to workwith children and their families
to provide them with really, Imean, I personally feel like
grief is because it's souniversal and yet also so
personal.
You know, we all experience it,but when we're going through

(33:11):
it, it feels like no one haspossibly ever gone through
something like what we're goingthrough.
And the reality is both ofthose things are right because
it's so personal and individual.
No one has gone through thegrief that you've gone through
or that I've gone through, butwe've all gone through it,
right?
Um, so it is a very commonexperience, but it is so

(33:32):
incredibly personal andconnecting on that level, I have
found to be so powerful andhealing, not just for people
that I'm supporting, but alsofor myself.
Frequently, I people don't knowthat about me because when I'm
supporting them, I don't talktoo much about my own
experiences.
But when I'm saying goodbye topeople, I usually say something

(33:57):
like, you know, I I hope youdon't know how much you've also
impacted my life.
Um, and I don't tell them how,but I just tell them that they
have.
And I say that because I meanit.
It's uh it's a very lonelyexperience, you know, it just
feels so lonely, and yet itshouldn't, because we have all

(34:17):
gone through it.
So being in community withother people who have gone
through really difficult things,and I typically am talking
about death and dying, but uh itdoesn't have to be, right?
We grieve many, many things,relationships and financial
losses and all sorts of things.
So that experience reallyunites so many of us, and that

(34:39):
has been a powerful threadthroughout my career of working
with uh children and families.
And it's amazing how much evenkids are able to connect to
those feelings, especially whenthey know that there are other
kids uh, you know, who've gonethrough this.
I I tell this story that I Iworked at a children's
bereavement center for manyyears, and we would meet at like

(35:03):
six o'clock or six fifteen, andthey would have a pizza dinner
first.
So all these kids and parents,and you know, they would meet in
this big room and we would havepizza, and then they'd go into
their sort of support groups forpeople their own ages or
sometimes based on therelationships.
But there was this, I'm sureyou've seen them now, but at the

(35:24):
time it was like new.
I had never seen it.
There's like these enormousConnect 4s, you know, the game
connect four, but it's likereally big.
You'll see them at playgroundsnow.
Um, so we had one in this likepizza room, and these two little
kids who had never met startedplaying Connect Four.
So they're standing, you know,facing each other playing
Connect 4.
And I'm just kind of standingaround and I overhear one say to

(35:48):
the other one, Who'd you lost?
And the kid said, What?
He goes, Who'd you lost?
And he says, I lost my uncle,who'd you lost?
And I said, I lost my mom.
And then they were like, Oh,and then they kept playing.
And I thought that would neverhappen on a school playground.
Like, they're not gonna feelcomfortable enough to talk about

(36:09):
something like that, uh,playing kickball or even the
same game on their playground,right?
But they knew here everybodywas like here to talk about the
person that died, and it justmade it feel so safe.
That was like so powerful tome.
I mean, it was like a 30-secondinteraction, but it it reminds
me all the time about howimportant it is that we surround

(36:31):
ourselves with people who wantto talk about this.
Um, I truly mean it when I saylike it has like helped me to
live because I talk about deathand dying all the time.
People think my job must be sodepressing and so sad.
You know, people don't I workfrom home now, but when I've

(36:51):
worked in other spaces, peopleare like, oh, I don't want to,
you know, come to your office.
It's gonna be so sad.
And you know, it's not likethat at all.
It's like very life affirming.
Um, it feels so good.
Um, and it really truly makesme think about what I want to do
with my own life.
You know, I was talking tosomebody the other day, I
exercise a lot, um, almost everymorning.

(37:14):
And there was one day recentlyI just did not want to get out
of bed.
Um and I thought about thisgentleman that I'd spoken to the
day before with ALS, and hedoesn't have the option to get
out of bed.
Um and I said to myself, I havea body that is capable, um,
that is strong, that is able todo things for me that some

(37:37):
people don't have.
And I did it.
I got out of bed and I got onthe treadmill for 35 minutes.
Um, because I because of thesekinds of conversations, I think
it really truly makes me thinkabout how fortunate I am and
what I want to do to live, toreally, truly live.

Yeah.
But uh yeah, there's some goodthoughts there.
I one thing that stuck with methat you were talking about
right now, I feel like whenpeople are grieving, or it
doesn't have to be just grief,but you know, you don't you
don't always want to um shareeverything with like everybody
or you're not comfortable.
What do you think what advicewould you have for someone, you
know, who knows uh a child orsomeone young that's going

(38:20):
through uh grief and maybe whatkind of environment um or yeah,
what kind of conditions do youthink are important for them to
be able to have that space totalk, you know, or just feel
comfortable?

I would say I completely agree with you.
So I don't think that kids oradults should be forced to talk
about anything that they don'twant to, right?
You there are certain people,you know, I'm sure we all have
people in our lives.
This person's good for coffeeor to go play pickleball with,
and this person's good for youknow, a good cry one day, and

(38:56):
you know who those people are inyour own lives.
Um, kids are the same way, sowe want to make sure that they
are they feel empowered toprotect themselves and you know
to talk about what they want toum in different environments.
You may have heard a sayingthat you know people die twice.

(39:16):
They die the first time whenthey physically die, and then
they die again when they whenpeople stop saying their names.
And that has stuck with me.
So I think our job as adults,especially when we're talking
about kids, is to say the name,to invite them, to let them know
that it this is an okay placeto talk about them, right?
So a lot of people, I'm sureyou've heard this too, where

(39:39):
they say, like, I don't want tobring up Andrew because I didn't
want to make you sad.
As if, like, oh, I forgot, Iforgot all about Andrew until
you said his name.
Like, that's it's a very sillyconcept.
But I understand people wantingto protect us, but I would say
to those people, we'll let youknow, as the griever, if we need

(39:59):
to be protected.
So when people say like mydad's name, I usually feel like
what a gift to hear, like tolearn more stories about him.
My dad died 22 years ago.
So to hear things about himthat I didn't hear before, or to
know that people still thinkabout him, um, that is such a
gift to me.

(40:20):
If I don't want to talk abouthim, I don't have to, and I
could say thank you.
You know, for many years, whenmy dad died, we would light
candles on Thanksgiving, whichwas sort of a new tradition.
So we would have this a littlesetting um of candles, and my
sisters and my mom and I wouldall say like a little we can

(40:41):
call it a prayer, but like alittle we have a little ritual
around these candles.
And then people would show upfor Thanksgiving.
And some people would just say,Oh, those are pretty candles.
And it gave me an opportunityif I wanted to say, Well, we lit
them right before everybody gothere, and said a little prayer
for my dad.
I could say that, and it waslike the opening for me.

(41:01):
But if I didn't want to, Icould say, Thank you.
Yeah, they're beautifulcandles, right?
Like I didn't have to doanything, but it gave me that
opening, and I think that that'sreally important to create
spaces where people feel likethey can talk about the person.
And you know, medical aid anddying is an even more taboo
topic than just dying.

Yeah.

So uh sometimes we need to be as the person who's
experienced it, we need to bethe one that brings it up.
So we let people know like it'sokay to talk about it.

Yeah, I think that's why I like to talk about
it too, is just the spreadawareness that it that it
exists.
It still baffles my mind.
I've told this story before.
I know doctors uh in in theMidwest and other states that
have no idea about it.
Um like what it's it'shappening in the same country
that you can do.

There's 50% of the people in New Jersey don't know
about it, and it's a law on thebooks.
We've done polling, not uspersonally, but there's been
polling that has shown that inthe states where metaplade and
dying exists, only 50% of thepeople know about it.

Why do you think that is?
That's something so core toeverybody, really.
Either they're gonna face iteventually or someone that that
they know is gonna die.
It's not like people are notdying, they're always dying.
So, what what is the reasonthat it's not in the public
consciousness more?
I think about that sometimestoo.

Yeah.
I think there's a couple ofreasons.
Um, nobody wants to talk aboutit or think about it, right?
And I'm not, I mean, obviouslywe could say we're all dying,
but I'm not actively dying rightnow.
So if you're not activelydying, you're probably not
thinking about your, you know,your death.
Um, you know, 30-year-olds arenot walking around thinking

(42:42):
about, you know, advanced careplans or pain management at the
end of their lives or who theywant to speak for them if
they're no longer able to speakfor themselves.
Right.
They don't think about that.
Um, and there's, you know, Iwant to say there's no reason to
be to bring it up.
There is reason to bring it up,obviously, but uh there's not
like a natural reason at thatmoment, it's not an imminent

(43:05):
conversation that people need tohave.
So people only think about itwhen they have to, you know, uh,
if you're single and fullysingle, not in a relationship,
not thinking about gettingmarried, you're probably not
thinking about how to plan yourwedding.
But once you start getting intoa relationship and it's getting
serious and you're thinkingabout getting engaged, all of a

(43:27):
sudden you're like, you know,things start popping up on your
Instagram about venues and DJsand cakes and things like that,
right?
So if you're not sort of inthat space, in that, you know,
getting ready to die space, it'snot something that we that sort
of comes to our mind naturally.
I think that's part of my jobis to bring more consciousness

(43:50):
to the world about death anddying, because when you want to
get married, you plan a lot.
You spend a lot of your time,energy, and resources into what
you want your wedding to looklike.
And we don't do that withdeath, and it is, you know, one
of the biggest transitions ofour lives.

Um, I I want to touch uh I want to ask one more
question about the grief beast.
Do you think that childrengrieve differently than like
adults, or is there a differentprocess to it?
And if so, do you think youcould speak to that?

Yeah, definitely I think that they do.
Um, they're not little adultsum who, you know, sort of grieve
differently.
And I think there's some goodthings about the way that kids
grieve, and then some thingsthat are challenging.
Um, kids have shorter tensionspans than we do, uh, which I
think is a blessing when itcomes to grief.
So, you know, if I wake up onthe wrong side of the bed, my

(44:43):
whole day is ruined.
That doesn't typically happenwith kids.
They can, you know, have a badmoment, then their favorite, you
know, TV show comes on andthey're off to the races, and
you know, good for them.
Uh, so they sort of grieve inmore like bursts than we do.
Um, it can hit us for longerperiods of time, um which I

(45:06):
think is a blessing.
But their understanding ofdeath and dying and the, you
know, first of all, like theuniversality of death and also
the permanence of death, theydon't understand.
So they grieve differently whenthey're five, and then they,
you know, then they're 12, andthey're like, oh, he's really
not coming back, right?

(45:27):
Um, it hits them differently,and their grief sort of, I don't
want to say starts over, butit, you know, it's like a new
phase of grief where as adultswe pretty much understand uh
that grief is permanent, thatwe're all gonna die.
Um, so those things are sort ofdifferent.
I um we don't always use theright terminology either, right?

(45:52):
Like sometimes we'll say passedaway or uh went to sleep or
down, you know, like dead.
Yeah.
And I always say that, like,it's just a vocabulary word to
kids.
It's just like learning theword orange or chair, right?
Like it's just a word.
We're the ones that make thatword scary.
They have no idea that it'sscary.

(46:13):
Um, I remember a little boywho's probably five years old,
he came into my office and he'slike looking, like looking
around.
He's like looking under thecouch.
I don't know what he was doing.
He was just like lookingaround.
Um, well, it turns out that hismom had died.
Dad told him that we lost mom.
And then told him we're gonnago see Mandy because of mom.

(46:36):
So he literally thought he wasgonna find her in my office.
Um, and that was devastating.
I mean, truly devastating forhim, for his father, um, to have
to explain, like, no, she's notactually lost, right?
So we need to use the rightwords.
That mom died, that means herbody stopped working, her

(46:57):
heart's not beating, she's notable to eat or drink or play or
do all the things that you knowfive-year-olds do.
Uh, and that she, you know,once her body breaks, she can't
come back.
I remember when my dad died, myson was two, and I explained
that to him in those ways, like,you know, Papa's body broke,

(47:18):
um, and you know, he can't bewith us anymore.
And he said, Well, can't we puta new battery in him?
Um, because that's what he knewabout broke, right?
So when his toys would break,we'd put a new battery in, and
frequently they would, you know,the toy would work again.
So I had to explain that wedon't have batteries like that,
and that the doctors tried tofix his body, but they couldn't.

(47:41):
So that means that he died.

Um, so yeah, that's hard.
It's funny you say that theylike pass away um in like Urdu,
uh my the other language that Ican sort of speak.
Uh, they have like a term toothat, you know, they they don't
say the word dead.
It's just like, you know, diedor dead.
Well, we try so hard to likeavoid that.
I think my niece one time wastaught was like using the word

(48:05):
like something died.
We're like, no, no, don't saydied, you know.
It's just like, yeah, we'rescared of the impact and maybe
the sadness or something that itwould uh bring on people.
But usually what we're afraidof like that is not exactly um
the right thing to be afraid of.
Um, yeah, I I I wonder.

I think you know there's some cultural things
around that too, like, and I'mfine with different cultures and
your religious beliefs, and butI think it is important,
especially with kids, toconcretely explain what that
means.
And then if you want to talkabout heaven or God or spirits
or souls, all that's fine.
But first, explain what itmeans to be dead, you know.

(48:47):
Um, I have I know another womanwho she's actually a social
worker, so she thought she waslike doing this right, and she
did do a lot of things right.
Her four-year-old, um, herfather had died, and her
daughter was four, and she said,you know, she went to him and
explained that grandpa died.
And um, she was crying when shetold her daughter that grandpa

(49:09):
died.
And she said, you know, tell mewhat kind of questions you
have.
And, you know, I don't herdaughter didn't have really any
questions.
They cried together for a fewminutes, and then, like I said,
four-year-old attentions areshort.
She found something else to doand went to play, and all was
fine, you know, for the moment.
And then they're walking downthe street in New York City, and

(49:32):
her daughter says to her, IsGrandpa still swimming?
And she said, Swimming?
Why do you think grandpa'sswimming?
And she said, Well, you told mehe dived.
And she said, No, he didn'tdive, he died.
But she didn't know what diedmeant meant.
So she heard dive becausethat's the only word she knew.

(49:56):
So the mom didn't explainenough about what died actually
means.
His body stopped working, he'snot able to eat and drink, and
go to the potty and sleep and doall the things that her
four-year-old does.
Um, so she made up in her mindwhat that meant.

Wow, yeah.
Um yeah.
You've I guess you do you youjust have to be clear with kids
too.
I'm sure we could do that withmore with like adults too, when
they like when they grieve.
As uh as as Kendrick Lamarsaid, we all grieve different.
Um and I and e even grief is uhjust one of those topics I've
really been like interested inbecause um and because you're

(50:37):
right, not just about uh youknow the most potent part of
probably time is when someonedies.
Everyone knows that kind ofgrief.
Um I've seen people defergrief, but you can it can it can
be like the loss of a arelationship, a job even, you
know, just people in your lifethat you miss.
Um yeah, I like you know, I'veyeah.

(50:58):
But anyways, grief is a it is apowerful topic, and and and I
hope that people find supportbecause I I do feel like in this
disconnected world that we haveright now, we're I guess we're
super connected online, but notreally uh like in person.
I think, you know, I alwaysthink like there's probably
people just walk uh at there'sprobably people walking and you
see them and maybe they'rehaving a bad day, they they honk

(51:21):
at you in traffic or somethinglike that, and they piss you
off.
Maybe that person lost somesomebody or there's grieving
something, you know, they'rehaving a hard time um processing
their like emotions.
Um but yeah.
Uh so I I I also want to, youknow, I I'm really interested in
like in your story.
It seems like this project thatyou're that you're a part of,

(51:42):
it's something you've beenworking towards your whole life.
Um and you're seeing it on a Dyou know, uh, or like a lot of
your life, I guess.
And uh you're you're seeingthis bill on the governor's
desk.
I mean you're you're workingfor such a noble cause and
you're close.
Um if this bill pass if thisbill does pass, what's next for

(52:02):
you?
Um Yeah how do you see yourrole like transforming?

Yeah, people keep saying, like, are you gonna pass
a bill and lose your job?
Um and I wish that was it wasas easy as that.
I don't want to lose my job.
Um, if anybody on my board islistening, I definitely don't
want to lose my job.
But actually, the work justbegins.
I mean, passing this bill islike the tip of the iceberg, and

(52:32):
we've already started.
So, like I said, 50% of peoplein some of the other states that
have this bill know know thatit exists.
We don't want that for NewYork.
We want everybody to know thatit exists and we want them to
know how to access the bill.
So, really working on theimplementation of this bill,
that is what is super excitingto me.
So, we've already started.

(52:53):
We've um partnered with theAcademy of Aid and Dying
Medicine.
Um, they're in California, butthey're a national organization
and they support clinicians whoare working with patients on
medical aid and dying.
So we're working right now,mostly I would say we're working
with doctors, but we're alreadyworking to identify pharmacies

(53:14):
that can dispense the drugsbecause what's the point of
having a bill that you can't getthe drugs for?
Um you don't have to, right?
And you know, like just thisbill in New York, just like in
every other state, is completelyoptional.
So anybody that participates asa professional has the option
to opt out.
So pharmacies don't have todispense this drug.

(53:35):
So we need to educate doctors,pharmacies, nurses, social
workers, chaplains, all thepeople that could be part of
this, what the bill is, whattheir role would be, what their
um, you know, how they canparticipate if they want to.
We have to educate the publicabout the the availability of

(53:59):
this.
So we need to do massive publicawareness campaigns, uh, you
know, show up in nursing homes,in churches, in synagogues, and
senior centers, letting peopleknow that this bill exists and
how they can access it.
So the work is, like I said, itis an enormous responsibility

(54:20):
if this passes.
And as well as because it'savailable to everybody outside
of New York, we have to educatepeople from out of state and we
also have to plan for them.
So we can't, you know, Ianticipate because I've spoken
to colleagues in other statesthat don't have residency
requirements, I anticipate aslew of calls coming in from

(54:43):
people from out of state saying,how do I access this?
How can I get a doctor, a, youknow, a place to be, um, all of
those kinds of things.
So we're already working onthat.

So how can they um access it?
What should someone um who'snot in the state, you know, um,
what should they know aboutsomething like this?
Like, do you just like livethere for a little bit and then
just transfer your medical?

Well, you don't have to live here.
Yeah, I guess in our bill,unless the governor, right,
unless the governor changesthat.
I, you know, it's very possiblethat she makes some kind of
amendments to the bill.
But assuming she keeps theresidency requirement, the
residency requirement out, whichwe hope she does, um, yeah,
there's a lot of things thatwe're trying to figure out.

(55:28):
Like, you know, do we need tofind a residence?
Maybe we create a residence.
Uh, New Mexico has a greatsystem where they have a
basically a bed in a nursinghome.
So that if people call sort ofour organization in New Mexico,
if they call them and say, I'dlike to come to New Mexico, they

(55:50):
can help them create res theyneed a residency requirement,
but it's pretty liberal in NewMexico.
So create a residency at thisnursing home.
So they have a bed ready forthem, they have doctors who are
ready to work with thesepatients.
So we have to figure all ofthat out.
We're like literally in themiddle of doing that.
We've created a bunch ofcommittees with the academy to

(56:14):
focus on like how are otherstates doing all of these
things, putting our own policiesand procedures in place.
We're working with doctors andhospitals to figure out what
kind of policies they need, ifthey're going to allow it, um,
you know, how to educate theirdoctors, whether or not they
want to participate, and if theydo want to participate, you
know, all of the things.

(56:35):
Um, the drugs that you use.
And I mean, I'm not a doctor,so I don't even I can't even say
I pretend to be one on TV.
There's a lot involved.

Yeah, the infrastructure actually now now
that you explained it, it soundslike there's a lot to do.
Um, is there gonna be anydifference?
Because I know the medicationhas changed over the decades.
Um, is there any likedifference between the
medication they might use in NewYork compared to like other
states, or is it all gonna bekind of the same, same cocktail
idea?

Again, I'm not a doctor, so I want to be careful
about that.
My understanding is no, that itwouldn't be different, but it's
not always exactly the sameeither.
So, again, not a doctor, but Ium I pay a lot of attention to
what doctors are saying aboutthis.
So I am privy to someconversations that doctors have

(57:25):
with one another.
And what I've heard is that,you know, depending on
somebody's illness or theirweight or their metabolism or
the way that they ingest themedication.
So you can take it orally, oryou can take it through a
feeding tube, or you know,there's a whole bunch of
different things, all of thosethings determine the dosage and

(57:48):
perhaps the kinds of medicationsthat people would be taking.
So there's a, you know, it'snot just, you know, I want to
take medical-aid and dyeingpills or drugs.
Uh, you go to a doctor and theygive you the script for that,
you know.
Um doctors really have to knowwho their patients are and make
very good clinical decisions forthem.

Yeah, we're we're planning on having a pharmacist
that's worked on this amedication before to uh kind of
speak about that more.
But yeah.

If that pharmacist is interested in talking to any
pharmacists in New York thatare interested in learning, let
me know.

Okay, for sure.
Yeah, we'll we'll try to dosome uh connecting.
That would be like that thatwould be cool.
Um but yeah, it's been reallynice like hearing your story.
Uh I wanted to also pass it onto uh Strev to see if uh he had
any questions or like orthoughts before we started
wrapping it up.

Jon Strevell (58:44):
Yeah.
Um Andy, uh you've been workingto advocate for this bill for
you know roughly 10 years, itseems.
It's a long time.
Shows a lot of grit and youknow, perseverance,
determination.
Um what has this process beenlike for you?
And um, I guess how do youmanage the ups and downs to any

(59:04):
setbacks?
Stay motivated.

Um yeah, I would say it's it's been exhilarating
most of the time.
Again, I think the people thatcare about this bill, advocates
and supporters from around thestate that I've met have been
inspiring, not only because manyof them have really difficult

(59:29):
stories.
Um, and you know, if you havestories like that, like
sometimes you just feel like Ican't do more.
I'm just exhausted from myexperience.
But so many of these peopledecide, you know, sometimes in
honor of that person thatthey're going to stay focused
and get this bill passed sosomeone else doesn't have to,

(59:50):
you know, live the way thattheir person did.
So that's incredibly inspiring.
It's exhausting.
Um It is sad and frustratingsometimes.
I keep I wrote a newsletterrecently that I said something
like we are waiting and then inparentheses, not so patiently

(01:00:13):
for Governor Hovel to sign.
Like it's getting hard.
It's really, you know, we're atwe're like right there.
Um so it is frustrating.
Um, and I think the good newsis that the people that are in
this work are really genuinelynice people.
Like who would do this if theyweren't?

(01:00:34):
Right.
So I don't come across a lot ofpeople that I don't like or
that are difficult because we'reall working towards the same
thing.
So it's been actually a reallyinspiring and uh and like I
said, in exhilaratingexperience.
So most of the time I feelpretty energized by this work.

(01:00:55):
I'm also fortunate that I have,you know, a great family and
self-care has become veryimportant to me.
And I have a lot of you knowpretty sound self-care
techniques that I use daily uhto make sure that I start my day
and end my day well andgrounded.

Jon Strevell (01:01:17):
Yeah, it's great to hear from people who are
passionate about this subjectand you know willing to be open
to discussing great stuff.

Hasban Shaikh (01:01:28):
Yeah.
Yeah, I thought that was areally good question, actually,
because that is true, you know.
We all have like this is one ofthe ultimate projects, but I'm
sure there's so many moments uhthroughout your career where
you're like, this climate, thisenvironment, this country, it's
just not possible here, youknow.
Um I you know, why am I doingthis or something like that?

(01:01:49):
Um I could totally see that.
I yeah.
And uh, but you guys, you guys,and I mean guys and gals and
like like throughout the countrythat that like work on this,
it's amazing what determinationthat you've shown.
Um and in in and all of it.

Mandi Zucker (01:02:05):
It's very hard to give up when you look around and
you see these people who had afamily member die 15 years ago
and they are still working toget this bill passed.
Like it it would almost berude, you know, like that I
would say, Oh, I don't want todo that anymore.
Like I mean, what a slap in theface of the people that have

(01:02:28):
been working so hard, and youknow, I care a lot about this
issue, but I also do get paidto, you know, I have a job.
Some of these people, likethey're just doing it because
they want this, and I I honorthem by doing this job.

For sure.
Um, yeah, I I I couldn't havesaid that better.
You know, all whatever thispodcast uh uh this podcast is an
inspiration is uh Suzy Flack,who is like Andrew's mom, and
the work that she continues todo, um, she was a big part in
getting that um bill in in thestate of like Illinois um on the

(01:03:07):
governor's desk, and she stilladvocates uh uh and so and and
so and so does his family, andso and so do we all.
And um and and and you know,just to go back to that point
about like motivation, we still,I mean, friends, I mean like
like uh m me and Strev talkabout this.

(01:03:28):
We still uh get so muchinspiration from like Andrew,
you know.
I think Strev was talkingabout, I think he like ran like
a marathon or something or gotinjured, and he was talking
about how he had to like hethought about Andrew and the
stuff that he went through andhe pushed through it.
Um I've got some friends herethat got to meet um Um Andrew in
kind of his last couple weeksof life that have really gone

(01:03:48):
through some stuff, and uhsometimes they'll bring him up
and but they'll be like, Yeah, Idon't know how how he did it.
I I struggled to do this orthat, you know.
And uh yeah, these stories thatand the and then the suffering
that people went through wasn'tin in like in like in vain, you
know.
It gave us all the energy tokeep going and uh and it in a in
in like a strange way it wasalso a blessing for us.

(01:04:11):
Andrew used to talk about thatlike a lot.
He's like, I hope this onlylike happens to me.
Um, you know, I hope whateverthis is, it doesn't happen to
you guys or my family.
I hope no one else has to gothrough this, and I hope you
guys can use this somehow, youknow.
And um, yeah, but that's that'svery cool that you do what you
do.

Um well it's very cool that you're doing that.
What a legacy he is leaving foryou for sure.

Um, yeah, it's like an honor to do this
podcast.
I mean, you know, we get onhere, we have our own lives, or
out we're like podcasting is notour thing, you know.
We're not trying to like havethe biggest podcast out there um
or grow it or you know, or getlike ads or something like that.
We just do this just for thecause.

Um and uh well, I hope you do get all of that
though, because honestly, that'show more people will know about
it, you know.
Like we want people talkingabout it.
So I hope I'll help you dowhatever I can to get people.

Yeah, for sure.
It's really wild.
The podcast has really taken onlike a life of its own,
especially in like the lastthree months.
We've had so many inquiries,and you know, before we're
thinking about how we can getguests, but we've just had uh
just people like reaching out tous once a month or maybe a
couple times a month, we'll getlike an email from someone that
listened to the whole podcast,like all the episodes saying how

(01:05:27):
much they appreciated Andrewand his story and the podcast.
And you know, like I'm like anormal dude, I feel I you know,
I I didn't ever think I wouldget like an email like that.
You know, sometimes they'llcall me out too, they'll be
like, Yeah, and you're like andyour friend like Hosbot.
I'm like that I mean that justan honor, honestly.
That's that's the only wordthat like I can use.
Um, Streb, did you haveanything else before we uh wrap

(01:05:50):
up?

Jon Strevell (01:05:51):
Um, nothing specific, just been really uh
yeah, to touch on what you weresaying, really been special to
be part of this, and uh justmaking sure that none of the
work he did was in vain, youknow.
It's special to see when we getthose inquiries from people
that are still being touched byepisodes that were released
years ago, you know.
Um and it's you know, it islike you said, Mandy, it's

(01:06:14):
pretty easy to stay motivatedwhen you get these emails and
you see these uh changes arestill happening.

Yep.
Um Mandy, did you have any uhfinal thoughts or anything to uh
anything else that you want touh say or or like speak about?

Well, I would um just encourage anybody that's
listening, uh especially ifthey're in New York, to reach
out to Governor Hokwall and lether know how much you support
this bill.
And um, we have like a sampletemplate letter on our website.
It's um endoflifechoicesny.org.
People can go there, um, findher address, her email, her

(01:06:54):
phone number, all of the things.
Um, but we need as much supportas we can get to get us over
the finish line here.

I've always wanted to say this, but we'll
add that to the podcastdescription and and uh and like
everything.
We'll add all the links.
Thank you, thank you.
Excellent, excellent.
For sure.
Well, thank you for your time.
Uh this was great.
And uh we hope to uh stay intouch with you and uh we'll
we'll stay tuned and hopefullyuh we'll be sending you an email

(01:07:24):
congratulating you on the billbeing passed next year.

I hope so.
This year, this year it's gottabe done by the yeah.

Oh yeah, it's gotta be done this year.
I meant this year.

Yeah.
Yep.
Okay.
Well, thank you very much.
Thanks for having me.

No problem.
Thank you for your time.
Bye.

All right, bye-bye.

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New York’s Monumental Bill - Episode 25 with Mandi Zucker

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}New York’s Monumental Bill - Episode 25 with Mandi Zucker