July 18, 2025 • 19 mins
Deep Dive Into Mark Fish: A South African Football Odyssey
This episode does a deep dive into the interview with former South African footballer Mark Fish, offering a comprehensive overview of his life and career. He recounts his childhood in Pretoria, raised by a single mother, and his formative years playing for Arcadia Shepherds, highlighting football's role in fostering racial harmony during apartheid. The discussion then transitions to his professional career, detailing his move from Jomo Cosmos to Orlando Pirates, where he achieved significant success, including winning the CAF Champions League in 1995. Fish also shares his experiences with the South African national team, including their historic 1996 Africa Cup of Nations victory and participation in the 1998 World Cup, noting the challenges faced with coaching changes. Finally, he discusses his overseas career in Europe with clubs like Lazio, Bolton Wanderers, and Charlton Athletic, and reflects on his post-retirement life and continued involvement in football development.
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Deep dive. Today we're digging into the
really extraordinary life of Marc Fish, a South African
football legend. You know, his career ran
parallel to massive changes in the country.
Absolutely. And it gives us this, this
unique window into resilience, the power of sport.
It's quite a story. Yeah, definitely.
We're going to explore a journeythat's well full of surprises,
(00:21):
real insights and just that broad determination of an
athlete who was frankly bigger than the game.
And it's more than just ticking off career milestones, isn't it?
Mark Fish's story is, I think, apowerful tale of personal
growth, adapting and how sport can, you know, bring people
together, especially in those really crucial historical
moments. It really is.
(00:42):
It shows how someone navigates huge societal shifts.
Not just the public wins, but those really personal character
forming times. Exactly, both on and off the
pitch. OK, so let's start right at the
beginning. And it's kind of surprising he
was born in Cape Town, right? But he really sees himself as
from Pretoria. Yeah, fiercely.
His mom moved there when he was only, what, 8 months old to be
(01:03):
with her parents of Sunnyside, Pretoria.
That's where he grew up, raised by a single mom.
And that support system sounds crucial.
His grandmother especially. Oh, definitely.
She was a headmistress at a nursery school just nearby.
Really important figure. And, you know, his early life
wasn't simple. His older brother had some
significant challenges, right? I read about that like the
(01:24):
incident with the train. Exactly.
It meant his brother went to a school for the visually impaired
and all that. Well, it meant Mark had to grow
up fast. He became pretty self reliant,
taught himself to swim, things like that.
Wow. So even before the big political
changes in South Africa, these early experiences were already
shaping his view of the world. Undeniably gave him a particular
(01:45):
perspective. And then comes Arcadia
Shepherds. He joins him super young, right?
Like 6 years old. Yeah, Tiny.
And he talks about it not just as a football club, but
genuinely like a second home. It was somewhere he felt safe,
looked after, a place to really develop.
More than just kicking a ball around them.
A sanctuary, almost. No, it really was.
And what's fascinating is how Arcadia became this sort of
(02:08):
microcosm of a more normal society for him.
You know, Well, his school was segregated very strictly, But on
the football pitch at Arcadia, he was playing alongside
teammates of all backgrounds, black, Indian, colored.
And selection was just based on skill.
Purely on ability, not race. And that practical experience.
It gave him this fundamental understanding of how things
(02:29):
could work, which was a stark contrast to the the
abnormalities at the time outside the club.
It's like an early lesson in meritocracy through sport.
That's powerful. So from that foundation, he
takes his first steps towards Pro Football.
Tell us about the Jomo Cosmos move, that lucky break.
Right, so he was already playingfor Arcadia senior team by 16,
pretty young. And it was actually a teammate's
(02:51):
father, Roy Matthews, who is coaching at Cosmos with the
legendary Jomo Sono. He spotted Mark and that was it,
the big leap from amateur to semi pro.
He must have been what, 17? Maybe 18 A?
Huge step. Massive.
And what's really insightful here is this completely
unexpected career changing thingthat happened.
He was signed as a striker actually.
(03:11):
No way fish the defender. Yeah.
Signed as a striker? Yep.
Supposed to replace Thomas Madagasc but well, it didn't
quite pan out. Instead there was this cup semi
final. A teammate gets sent off and
Jomo Sono just turns to mark andsays right, drop back, center
back, just like that. And he basically stayed there.
Wow and his striker background helped.
(03:33):
Hugely. He understood how forwards
think, anticipate, runs. It gave him this edge, helped
him adapt incredibly quickly. Almost an accident, but it
defined his position. That's amazing.
And Cosmos was also where he first encountered Nudie.
That must have been an eye opener.
Oh, definitely a real cultural immersion, Moody.
You know, traditional practices for luck in South African
(03:54):
football. So what happened?
He turns up, proud of his freshly polished boots.
Right. And there's this guy in the
changing room just flicking water all over them.
Seriously. Yeah, It was just Joe Mozono's
way, part of the team's ritual, a real introduction to some of
those deeper traditions. And, you know, it also gives you
a little glimpse into the psychological side of the game,
(04:14):
doesn't it? Belief rituals, finding any
edge. Absolutely.
Now, Cosmos was also really significant because they were
among the first SA clubs back into African competitions after
92, right? That's right, post isolation and
those trips were something else.Real character building stuff,
sometimes pretty grueling. Like the Madagascar.
(04:35):
Trip. Oh yeah, He talks about being
stranded there for a whole week waiting for a flight home.
But the middle of the week, supplies were low, players were
actually like fighting over food, No.
Way that's intense. Totally, incredibly tough, but
experiences like that, they build resilience and probably
made them appreciate what they had back home too.
But here's the crazy contrast. While they're doing well
(04:57):
continentally, reaching semifinals.
Yeah, in the old CF Cup Winners Cup.
Back home they get relegated from the local league.
Exactly. His first real taste of that
brutal football reality. The highest highs and the lowest
lows all at once. A tough lesson.
So after that relegation, thingsgot interesting about his next
(05:18):
move. Kaiser Chiefs were sniffing
around. Yeah, apparently a Chiefs
representative approached him, mentioned fans wanting to see
him play alongside Lucas Radabe.Sounds exciting, right?
Definitely the two big defenderstogether.
But when Mark mentioned this to Joe Masono, well, the reaction
was pretty stark. Jomo basically said if you ever
sign for Kaiser Chiefs, I'll make sure you never play
(05:39):
football in this country again. Wow, that's direct.
Tells you a lot about the power dynamics back then, doesn't it?
Club ownership, player movement.It wasn't always about player
choice. Mark was effectively, you know,
guided towards Orlando Pirates. Told to go there basically.
Pretty much, and it helped that five of his Cosmos teammates
went with him. Shows how these things were
(05:59):
often orchestrated. And the money difference was
huge, but it wasn't just the amount, was it?
No, that's a key point. At Cosmos it was what, R8
hundred a month? And he mentions the checks often
bounced. Players literally racing to the
bank on payday. Stressful right?
Then pirates offer R-8000 10 times more.
But crucially, it was guaranteedthat stability, that
(06:21):
professionalism, was maybe even more important than the number
itself. A different world.
And you have to credit the vision of the chairman, Dr.
Irvin Koza. He really saw the potential in
Pirates. Mark tells this amazing story.
Doctor Koza actually turned downoffers for Mark from West Ham
back in 94. He could have cashed in.
But he didn't. Why?
Because he felt, in his words, something special was brewing at
(06:44):
Pirates. He wanted to keep the core
together for that incredible foresight, really leadership
setting the stage. And boy, was he right.
That leads us straight into the legendary 1995 CF Champions
League win. Still the only South African
team to do it. An unbelievable achievement.
The whole journey was tough. Mark talks about challenges like
Doctor Koza having to personallystep in and move them from a
(07:05):
dodgy hotel in Ivory Coast before the final leg.
Really shows the chairman's involvement.
Absolutely, and then the final itself away against ACC Mimosas.
They win one nil score in the 72nd minute.
Imagine silencing 60,000 hostilefans.
Just surreal. An iconic moment.
Totally. And beyond the football, think
about the timing newly democratic South Africa.
(07:27):
This victory achieved through teamwork, merit, unity.
It was such a powerful symbol for the nation.
It proved they could compete andwin on the biggest stage,
solidified their belief when maybe others doubted them.
Cemented their place in history without a doubt.
And then to top off his Pirates career, he captains the team to
(07:47):
win the CAF Super Cup as well. Yeah, a perfect farewell before
heading off to Europe. Couldn't have written it better.
OK, let's switch focus to the national team, Afana Bafana.
His debut was quite young, 1993.That's right, just 19 against
Mexico and Los Angeles, and he describes it as a bit of a 4 by
4 experience. He played all over the place,
midfield, right back, right midfield, thrown in at the deep
(08:08):
end. And the most memorable part for
him? The disturbing part?
Hilariously, it was not being allowed into the nightclub at
the team hotel because he wasn't21 yet.
Classic talk about priorities at19.
Exactly. But seriously, his performances
for Pirates were so strong, so consistent, it made his
transition to the national team pretty seamless.
(08:30):
As older defenders like Steve Comfellow were phasing out, Mark
was right there ready to step up.
Perfect timing. Which brings us to 96, the
Africa Cup of Nations on home soil.
Unforgettable. Truly iconic.
The atmosphere must have been electric.
He talks about the spring bugs who just won the Rugby World Cup
the year before. They actually came into the
(08:51):
Bufana changing room before the tournament to give them a pep
talk. Imagine that.
Wow, incredible inspiration. And then walking out for that
first game against Cameroon, FNBStadium packed, they win 3 nil,
dominate them, he said. They knew then, quietly, that
they could do something special.That belief started early and
Clive Barker's coaching. Crucial Mark speaks so highly of
(09:11):
him. Not just a motivator, but
tactically very smart. Knew how to place players, how
to get the absolute best out of them.
Made them believe they could beat anyone.
Absolutely. And he gave players like Mark
freedom, allowed him to surge forward from defense knowing
someone like Eric Tinkler would provide cover.
It made them so dynamic. And Mark even popped up with a
goal in the quarterfinal againstAlgeria.
(09:33):
He did, apparently, Barker had told him beforehand.
Mark, please just focus on defending today.
Couldn't resist. Nope, 10 minutes in he's up in
the opposition box and scores. That striker instinct never
fully left him, I guess. Amazing.
But then, after all that success, the decision to fire
Clive Barker after the 97 Confederations Cup, that seems
(09:56):
controversial. Hugely controversial and Mark
feels it had really damaging long term effects on South
African football. Barker had won the AF Con
qualified them for their first ever world.
Cup. You'd think he'd earn more time.
Exactly, but the federation wanted a big name coach.
Apparently. Mark calls the Confed Cup a
nothing tournament. Essentially, it feels firing
(10:18):
Barker then disrupted everything.
It set them back. A real what if moment for SA
football. Still, they reached the AFCON
final again in 98 under Joe Mosono, this time lost to Egypt.
But new stars were emerging. Yeah, players like Benny
McCarthy, Quinton Fortune reallycame through in that tournament,
showed the pipeline of talent was still strong despite the
(10:39):
coaching changes. But then came the build up to
the 98 World Cup, their first ever, and the coaching choice,
Philippe Trusier. Mark wasn't impressed.
Not at all. He calls Trusier the worst
possible choice, says his approach immediately split the
squad he apparently created. This divide between the players
based in South Africa and those playing internationally caused
(11:02):
real disrespect, disunity. Not what you need heading into a
World Cup. Absolutely not.
And then there was the infamous curfew incident in France after
they lost the opening game. What happened there?
Trusier sent a curfew. Mark says 21 out of the 25
players, including Self, deliberately broke it.
Open defiance. The relationship was completely
broken. Wow, so the off field stuff
(11:23):
totally overshadowed things? It sounds like it.
Mark felt they had a good enoughteam to maybe get out of the
group, but the connection with the coach was just gone.
A really difficult experience for their first World Cup.
It's interesting what he says about the South African style.
Back then it wasn't about rigid tactics.
No, not According to him. It was more about unleashing
individual brilliance, just letting the talented players
(11:46):
play. Like Doctor Kumalo shoes Moshe.
Exactly. Trusting them to create, to
entertain, to produce moments ofmagic, knowing the ball would
find them and they'd deliver. It was about flair, natural
ability, very South African. Capturing the imagination.
Precisely. And his last big tournament was
AFCON 2000. He mentions a specific game.
(12:06):
Yeah, the win against Ghana, thehosts, A1 nil victory.
He remembers playing with 10 menfor a long time, Lucas Rodeba
leading the defense, just fighting tooth and nail to hold
on. A real backs to the wall win.
Phenomenal effort, he called it,especially in Ghana's backyard.
Showed their spirit. OK, let's follow his journey to
Europe. He had a massive choice to make
(12:28):
initially, didn't he? Manchester United or Lotzio?
Incredible, right? He actually visited both clubs,
met Sir Alex Ferguson at Old Trafford but ended up choosing
Lotzio. Why Lotzio?
He felt Syria back then was justthe best league in the world for
a defender. The Italians reputation for
defensive organization and skillreally appealed to him.
(12:50):
A dream move, he said. And the step up in
professionalism must have been huge.
Oh, immense. He talks about going or maybe
training three times a week at Pirates to training every single
day at Loxio, often twice a day.Wow, intense.
Totally. Plus, playing alongside a young
Alessandra Nesta, you can imagine how much he learned, how
much he had to grow. Different culture, different
(13:11):
language, higher intensity, a massive development period.
Then he moves to England. Bolton Wanderers, but it starts
with disappointment. Yeah, immediate relegation from
the Premier League in his first noon.
Gutting down on goal difference,I think.
Ouch. And the old club versus country
issue popped up again there. Yeah, constantly clubs being
reluctant to play him right after he'd been away on
(13:32):
international duty, especially for long tournaments like AFCON,
a common frustration for many international players back then.
And his relationship with the manager Sam Allardice and did
badly. Quite contentiously, yes.
It seems it revolved around a contract dispute.
Allardice wanted him to sign a new deal publicly in front of
(13:52):
fans. His agent advised against it.
So it looked like he left just for money.
That was the perception Mark feels unfairly and the fallout
was bad. Allardice apparently wouldn't
even let him back into the training ground to say goodbye
to his team mates. Shows the tough side of the
business. Absolutely.
But then, Charlton Athletics sounded like a much better fit
for him. Completely different vibe.
He calls it a nice community club, a real family club run by
(14:16):
former players Alan Kirbishly and Keith Peacock.
Great atmosphere. And they punched above their
weight, didn't they? Massively consistently exceeded
expectations. He remembers them being 4th in
the Premier League at one point,briefly in a Champions League
spot. Beating Arsenal's Invincibles at
Highbury was a big highlight forhim.
Happy times there. Definitely, but it was also
(14:38):
while at Charlton that he had that horrific accent.
Oh yeah, the freak accident on his 30th birthday.
What happened? It sounds terrifying.
He was at home after a game, dancing with his son.
Listening to you too. His knee knocked a dining table.
He stumbled backwards onto a glass vase, mashed it, severed
an artery, lost 8 pints of blood, 8 pints.
(15:00):
Had to be rushed by ambulance. That's life threatening.
Absolutely. He credits a close friend who
was a nursing sister with knowing exactly what to do
immediately. And then he needed special
injections erythropoietin to boost his red blood cells
quickly for recovery. Incredible that he came back
from that. Truly testament to his
resilience physically and mentally.
Just an awful freak thing to happen.
(15:21):
And then his playing career ended relatively soon after
during a loan spell at Ipswich. Yeah, playing under Joe Royal,
he realized during one game against QPRI think that his body
just couldn't do what his mind wanted anymore.
That must be tough for an athlete.
The toughest realization, his pace, his ability to turn
quickly, which was key to his game.
(15:42):
It was just gone. He knew at halftime of that
match, accepted it, and those were his last 45 minutes as a
pro made the incredibly hard call to retire.
Transitioning out of that life is notoriously difficult.
How did he find it? He admits it wasn't easy.
Initially he tried to step rightaway from football, said he
wanted some distance from certain aspects of the game he'd
(16:03):
grown to dislike. That the pole was too strong.
Seems so. He found himself drawn back into
punditry, commentary, staying involved and.
He's quite open about making some mistakes post retirement.
Very candid actually. He talks about making wrong
choices, getting involved in story he didn't want to be part
of. It really highlights those
struggles many athletes face finding their way after the
(16:26):
structure and identity of playing disappears.
That vulnerability is quite revealing.
It is, he mentions, doing thingsoutside football that weren't
always the best for him, an honest reflection on that
challenging transition period. So where is he now?
What's he up to? Well, he moved to Durban around
four years ago, mainly to be closer to his younger kids and
(16:46):
he's heavily involved in football development now.
In what capacity? Through organizations like
KOSAFA, that's the Council of Southern African Football
Associations, he does technical analysis work for them, gets
involved in youth legacy programs, also contributes to
CAF, the main African federation, and runs his own
foundation to. Giving back to the game.
(17:07):
Exactly. Focusing on developing young
players, boys and girls across South Africa.
He says at 51, he feels like he's kind of rebuilding his
life. Rebuilding.
That's an interesting word. Yeah, but he frames it with
immense gratitude for the whole journey.
He acknowledges the good choicesand the bad, but ultimately says
he has no regrets about the experiences.
(17:28):
They all made him who he is. And he's still circles back to
Arcadia Shepherds, doesn't he? He does right back to the
beginning. He emphasizes again how much
that club taught him, not just about football but about life,
about being a person. Reinforces that pride in being
South African, the lessons learned about acceptance,
ability, community. It clearly had a profound
(17:51):
lifelong impact. What a journey, seriously.
From, you know, that kid in Sunnyside to continental
champion national hero, navigating these huge shifts in
South Africa and in football itself, it really is a story of
resilience. Passion.
Yeah. And that power of sport to
connect and reflect society, It's all there.
And Mark Fisch's story, it really reminds you that behind
(18:12):
the trophies and the headlines, there's always a complex human
journey, isn't there? Full of challenges, growth,
profound moments. Absolutely.
His reflections make you appreciate the whole career, the
UPS and the downs, not just the highlights, and how these
personal stories weave into the bigger picture of history and
social change. So for you listening, maybe it's
a chance to think about your ownjourney.
(18:32):
What were those pivotal moments,those key places or people that
really shaped who you are? Yeah, or those unifying forces
in your own life, the things that helped you connect or see
things differently. And perhaps consider this, what
were your own Moody moments? You know those unexpected
twists, maybe seemingly small details or strange occurrences
that ended up having a really big influence on your path?
(18:55):
Exactly just like they did for Marc Fish.
Those subtle things that guide you, maybe sometimes without you
even realizing it at the time. Something to think about.
Welcome to the Deep dive. Today we're digging into the
really extraordinary life of Marc Fish, a South African
football legend. You know, his career ran
parallel to massive changes in the country.
Absolutely. And it gives us this, this
unique window into resilience, the power of sport.
It's quite a story. Yeah, definitely.
We're going to explore a journeythat's well full of surprises,
(00:21):
real insights and just that broad determination of an
athlete who was frankly bigger than the game.
And it's more than just ticking off career milestones, isn't it?
Mark Fish's story is, I think, apowerful tale of personal
growth, adapting and how sport can, you know, bring people
together, especially in those really crucial historical
moments. It really is.
(00:42):
It shows how someone navigates huge societal shifts.
Not just the public wins, but those really personal character
forming times. Exactly, both on and off the
pitch. OK, so let's start right at the
beginning. And it's kind of surprising he
was born in Cape Town, right? But he really sees himself as
from Pretoria. Yeah, fiercely.
His mom moved there when he was only, what, 8 months old to be
(01:03):
with her parents of Sunnyside, Pretoria.
That's where he grew up, raised by a single mom.
And that support system sounds crucial.
His grandmother especially. Oh, definitely.
She was a headmistress at a nursery school just nearby.
Really important figure. And, you know, his early life
wasn't simple. His older brother had some
significant challenges, right? I read about that like the
(01:24):
incident with the train. Exactly.
It meant his brother went to a school for the visually impaired
and all that. Well, it meant Mark had to grow
up fast. He became pretty self reliant,
taught himself to swim, things like that.
Wow. So even before the big political
changes in South Africa, these early experiences were already
shaping his view of the world. Undeniably gave him a particular
(01:45):
perspective. And then comes Arcadia
Shepherds. He joins him super young, right?
Like 6 years old. Yeah, Tiny.
And he talks about it not just as a football club, but
genuinely like a second home. It was somewhere he felt safe,
looked after, a place to really develop.
More than just kicking a ball around them.
A sanctuary, almost. No, it really was.
And what's fascinating is how Arcadia became this sort of
(02:08):
microcosm of a more normal society for him.
You know, Well, his school was segregated very strictly, But on
the football pitch at Arcadia, he was playing alongside
teammates of all backgrounds, black, Indian, colored.
And selection was just based on skill.
Purely on ability, not race. And that practical experience.
It gave him this fundamental understanding of how things
(02:29):
could work, which was a stark contrast to the the
abnormalities at the time outside the club.
It's like an early lesson in meritocracy through sport.
That's powerful. So from that foundation, he
takes his first steps towards Pro Football.
Tell us about the Jomo Cosmos move, that lucky break.
Right, so he was already playingfor Arcadia senior team by 16,
pretty young. And it was actually a teammate's
(02:51):
father, Roy Matthews, who is coaching at Cosmos with the
legendary Jomo Sono. He spotted Mark and that was it,
the big leap from amateur to semi pro.
He must have been what, 17? Maybe 18 A?
Huge step. Massive.
And what's really insightful here is this completely
unexpected career changing thingthat happened.
He was signed as a striker actually.
(03:11):
No way fish the defender. Yeah.
Signed as a striker? Yep.
Supposed to replace Thomas Madagasc but well, it didn't
quite pan out. Instead there was this cup semi
final. A teammate gets sent off and
Jomo Sono just turns to mark andsays right, drop back, center
back, just like that. And he basically stayed there.
Wow and his striker background helped.
(03:33):
Hugely. He understood how forwards
think, anticipate, runs. It gave him this edge, helped
him adapt incredibly quickly. Almost an accident, but it
defined his position. That's amazing.
And Cosmos was also where he first encountered Nudie.
That must have been an eye opener.
Oh, definitely a real cultural immersion, Moody.
You know, traditional practices for luck in South African
(03:54):
football. So what happened?
He turns up, proud of his freshly polished boots.
Right. And there's this guy in the
changing room just flicking water all over them.
Seriously. Yeah, It was just Joe Mozono's
way, part of the team's ritual, a real introduction to some of
those deeper traditions. And, you know, it also gives you
a little glimpse into the psychological side of the game,
(04:14):
doesn't it? Belief rituals, finding any
edge. Absolutely.
Now, Cosmos was also really significant because they were
among the first SA clubs back into African competitions after
92, right? That's right, post isolation and
those trips were something else.Real character building stuff,
sometimes pretty grueling. Like the Madagascar.
(04:35):
Trip. Oh yeah, He talks about being
stranded there for a whole week waiting for a flight home.
But the middle of the week, supplies were low, players were
actually like fighting over food, No.
Way that's intense. Totally, incredibly tough, but
experiences like that, they build resilience and probably
made them appreciate what they had back home too.
But here's the crazy contrast. While they're doing well
(04:57):
continentally, reaching semifinals.
Yeah, in the old CF Cup Winners Cup.
Back home they get relegated from the local league.
Exactly. His first real taste of that
brutal football reality. The highest highs and the lowest
lows all at once. A tough lesson.
So after that relegation, thingsgot interesting about his next
(05:18):
move. Kaiser Chiefs were sniffing
around. Yeah, apparently a Chiefs
representative approached him, mentioned fans wanting to see
him play alongside Lucas Radabe.Sounds exciting, right?
Definitely the two big defenderstogether.
But when Mark mentioned this to Joe Masono, well, the reaction
was pretty stark. Jomo basically said if you ever
sign for Kaiser Chiefs, I'll make sure you never play
(05:39):
football in this country again. Wow, that's direct.
Tells you a lot about the power dynamics back then, doesn't it?
Club ownership, player movement.It wasn't always about player
choice. Mark was effectively, you know,
guided towards Orlando Pirates. Told to go there basically.
Pretty much, and it helped that five of his Cosmos teammates
went with him. Shows how these things were
(05:59):
often orchestrated. And the money difference was
huge, but it wasn't just the amount, was it?
No, that's a key point. At Cosmos it was what, R8
hundred a month? And he mentions the checks often
bounced. Players literally racing to the
bank on payday. Stressful right?
Then pirates offer R-8000 10 times more.
But crucially, it was guaranteedthat stability, that
(06:21):
professionalism, was maybe even more important than the number
itself. A different world.
And you have to credit the vision of the chairman, Dr.
Irvin Koza. He really saw the potential in
Pirates. Mark tells this amazing story.
Doctor Koza actually turned downoffers for Mark from West Ham
back in 94. He could have cashed in.
But he didn't. Why?
Because he felt, in his words, something special was brewing at
(06:44):
Pirates. He wanted to keep the core
together for that incredible foresight, really leadership
setting the stage. And boy, was he right.
That leads us straight into the legendary 1995 CF Champions
League win. Still the only South African
team to do it. An unbelievable achievement.
The whole journey was tough. Mark talks about challenges like
Doctor Koza having to personallystep in and move them from a
(07:05):
dodgy hotel in Ivory Coast before the final leg.
Really shows the chairman's involvement.
Absolutely, and then the final itself away against ACC Mimosas.
They win one nil score in the 72nd minute.
Imagine silencing 60,000 hostilefans.
Just surreal. An iconic moment.
Totally. And beyond the football, think
about the timing newly democratic South Africa.
(07:27):
This victory achieved through teamwork, merit, unity.
It was such a powerful symbol for the nation.
It proved they could compete andwin on the biggest stage,
solidified their belief when maybe others doubted them.
Cemented their place in history without a doubt.
And then to top off his Pirates career, he captains the team to
(07:47):
win the CAF Super Cup as well. Yeah, a perfect farewell before
heading off to Europe. Couldn't have written it better.
OK, let's switch focus to the national team, Afana Bafana.
His debut was quite young, 1993.That's right, just 19 against
Mexico and Los Angeles, and he describes it as a bit of a 4 by
4 experience. He played all over the place,
midfield, right back, right midfield, thrown in at the deep
(08:08):
end. And the most memorable part for
him? The disturbing part?
Hilariously, it was not being allowed into the nightclub at
the team hotel because he wasn't21 yet.
Classic talk about priorities at19.
Exactly. But seriously, his performances
for Pirates were so strong, so consistent, it made his
transition to the national team pretty seamless.
(08:30):
As older defenders like Steve Comfellow were phasing out, Mark
was right there ready to step up.
Perfect timing. Which brings us to 96, the
Africa Cup of Nations on home soil.
Unforgettable. Truly iconic.
The atmosphere must have been electric.
He talks about the spring bugs who just won the Rugby World Cup
the year before. They actually came into the
(08:51):
Bufana changing room before the tournament to give them a pep
talk. Imagine that.
Wow, incredible inspiration. And then walking out for that
first game against Cameroon, FNBStadium packed, they win 3 nil,
dominate them, he said. They knew then, quietly, that
they could do something special.That belief started early and
Clive Barker's coaching. Crucial Mark speaks so highly of
(09:11):
him. Not just a motivator, but
tactically very smart. Knew how to place players, how
to get the absolute best out of them.
Made them believe they could beat anyone.
Absolutely. And he gave players like Mark
freedom, allowed him to surge forward from defense knowing
someone like Eric Tinkler would provide cover.
It made them so dynamic. And Mark even popped up with a
goal in the quarterfinal againstAlgeria.
(09:33):
He did, apparently, Barker had told him beforehand.
Mark, please just focus on defending today.
Couldn't resist. Nope, 10 minutes in he's up in
the opposition box and scores. That striker instinct never
fully left him, I guess. Amazing.
But then, after all that success, the decision to fire
Clive Barker after the 97 Confederations Cup, that seems
(09:56):
controversial. Hugely controversial and Mark
feels it had really damaging long term effects on South
African football. Barker had won the AF Con
qualified them for their first ever world.
Cup. You'd think he'd earn more time.
Exactly, but the federation wanted a big name coach.
Apparently. Mark calls the Confed Cup a
nothing tournament. Essentially, it feels firing
(10:18):
Barker then disrupted everything.
It set them back. A real what if moment for SA
football. Still, they reached the AFCON
final again in 98 under Joe Mosono, this time lost to Egypt.
But new stars were emerging. Yeah, players like Benny
McCarthy, Quinton Fortune reallycame through in that tournament,
showed the pipeline of talent was still strong despite the
(10:39):
coaching changes. But then came the build up to
the 98 World Cup, their first ever, and the coaching choice,
Philippe Trusier. Mark wasn't impressed.
Not at all. He calls Trusier the worst
possible choice, says his approach immediately split the
squad he apparently created. This divide between the players
based in South Africa and those playing internationally caused
(11:02):
real disrespect, disunity. Not what you need heading into a
World Cup. Absolutely not.
And then there was the infamous curfew incident in France after
they lost the opening game. What happened there?
Trusier sent a curfew. Mark says 21 out of the 25
players, including Self, deliberately broke it.
Open defiance. The relationship was completely
broken. Wow, so the off field stuff
(11:23):
totally overshadowed things? It sounds like it.
Mark felt they had a good enoughteam to maybe get out of the
group, but the connection with the coach was just gone.
A really difficult experience for their first World Cup.
It's interesting what he says about the South African style.
Back then it wasn't about rigid tactics.
No, not According to him. It was more about unleashing
individual brilliance, just letting the talented players
(11:46):
play. Like Doctor Kumalo shoes Moshe.
Exactly. Trusting them to create, to
entertain, to produce moments ofmagic, knowing the ball would
find them and they'd deliver. It was about flair, natural
ability, very South African. Capturing the imagination.
Precisely. And his last big tournament was
AFCON 2000. He mentions a specific game.
(12:06):
Yeah, the win against Ghana, thehosts, A1 nil victory.
He remembers playing with 10 menfor a long time, Lucas Rodeba
leading the defense, just fighting tooth and nail to hold
on. A real backs to the wall win.
Phenomenal effort, he called it,especially in Ghana's backyard.
Showed their spirit. OK, let's follow his journey to
Europe. He had a massive choice to make
(12:28):
initially, didn't he? Manchester United or Lotzio?
Incredible, right? He actually visited both clubs,
met Sir Alex Ferguson at Old Trafford but ended up choosing
Lotzio. Why Lotzio?
He felt Syria back then was justthe best league in the world for
a defender. The Italians reputation for
defensive organization and skillreally appealed to him.
(12:50):
A dream move, he said. And the step up in
professionalism must have been huge.
Oh, immense. He talks about going or maybe
training three times a week at Pirates to training every single
day at Loxio, often twice a day.Wow, intense.
Totally. Plus, playing alongside a young
Alessandra Nesta, you can imagine how much he learned, how
much he had to grow. Different culture, different
(13:11):
language, higher intensity, a massive development period.
Then he moves to England. Bolton Wanderers, but it starts
with disappointment. Yeah, immediate relegation from
the Premier League in his first noon.
Gutting down on goal difference,I think.
Ouch. And the old club versus country
issue popped up again there. Yeah, constantly clubs being
reluctant to play him right after he'd been away on
(13:32):
international duty, especially for long tournaments like AFCON,
a common frustration for many international players back then.
And his relationship with the manager Sam Allardice and did
badly. Quite contentiously, yes.
It seems it revolved around a contract dispute.
Allardice wanted him to sign a new deal publicly in front of
(13:52):
fans. His agent advised against it.
So it looked like he left just for money.
That was the perception Mark feels unfairly and the fallout
was bad. Allardice apparently wouldn't
even let him back into the training ground to say goodbye
to his team mates. Shows the tough side of the
business. Absolutely.
But then, Charlton Athletics sounded like a much better fit
for him. Completely different vibe.
He calls it a nice community club, a real family club run by
(14:16):
former players Alan Kirbishly and Keith Peacock.
Great atmosphere. And they punched above their
weight, didn't they? Massively consistently exceeded
expectations. He remembers them being 4th in
the Premier League at one point,briefly in a Champions League
spot. Beating Arsenal's Invincibles at
Highbury was a big highlight forhim.
Happy times there. Definitely, but it was also
(14:38):
while at Charlton that he had that horrific accent.
Oh yeah, the freak accident on his 30th birthday.
What happened? It sounds terrifying.
He was at home after a game, dancing with his son.
Listening to you too. His knee knocked a dining table.
He stumbled backwards onto a glass vase, mashed it, severed
an artery, lost 8 pints of blood, 8 pints.
(15:00):
Had to be rushed by ambulance. That's life threatening.
Absolutely. He credits a close friend who
was a nursing sister with knowing exactly what to do
immediately. And then he needed special
injections erythropoietin to boost his red blood cells
quickly for recovery. Incredible that he came back
from that. Truly testament to his
resilience physically and mentally.
Just an awful freak thing to happen.
(15:21):
And then his playing career ended relatively soon after
during a loan spell at Ipswich. Yeah, playing under Joe Royal,
he realized during one game against QPRI think that his body
just couldn't do what his mind wanted anymore.
That must be tough for an athlete.
The toughest realization, his pace, his ability to turn
quickly, which was key to his game.
(15:42):
It was just gone. He knew at halftime of that
match, accepted it, and those were his last 45 minutes as a
pro made the incredibly hard call to retire.
Transitioning out of that life is notoriously difficult.
How did he find it? He admits it wasn't easy.
Initially he tried to step rightaway from football, said he
wanted some distance from certain aspects of the game he'd
(16:03):
grown to dislike. That the pole was too strong.
Seems so. He found himself drawn back into
punditry, commentary, staying involved and.
He's quite open about making some mistakes post retirement.
Very candid actually. He talks about making wrong
choices, getting involved in story he didn't want to be part
of. It really highlights those
struggles many athletes face finding their way after the
(16:26):
structure and identity of playing disappears.
That vulnerability is quite revealing.
It is, he mentions, doing thingsoutside football that weren't
always the best for him, an honest reflection on that
challenging transition period. So where is he now?
What's he up to? Well, he moved to Durban around
four years ago, mainly to be closer to his younger kids and
(16:46):
he's heavily involved in football development now.
In what capacity? Through organizations like
KOSAFA, that's the Council of Southern African Football
Associations, he does technical analysis work for them, gets
involved in youth legacy programs, also contributes to
CAF, the main African federation, and runs his own
foundation to. Giving back to the game.
(17:07):
Exactly. Focusing on developing young
players, boys and girls across South Africa.
He says at 51, he feels like he's kind of rebuilding his
life. Rebuilding.
That's an interesting word. Yeah, but he frames it with
immense gratitude for the whole journey.
He acknowledges the good choicesand the bad, but ultimately says
he has no regrets about the experiences.
(17:28):
They all made him who he is. And he's still circles back to
Arcadia Shepherds, doesn't he? He does right back to the
beginning. He emphasizes again how much
that club taught him, not just about football but about life,
about being a person. Reinforces that pride in being
South African, the lessons learned about acceptance,
ability, community. It clearly had a profound
(17:51):
lifelong impact. What a journey, seriously.
From, you know, that kid in Sunnyside to continental
champion national hero, navigating these huge shifts in
South Africa and in football itself, it really is a story of
resilience. Passion.
Yeah. And that power of sport to
connect and reflect society, It's all there.
And Mark Fisch's story, it really reminds you that behind
(18:12):
the trophies and the headlines, there's always a complex human
journey, isn't there? Full of challenges, growth,
profound moments. Absolutely.
His reflections make you appreciate the whole career, the
UPS and the downs, not just the highlights, and how these
personal stories weave into the bigger picture of history and
social change. So for you listening, maybe it's
a chance to think about your ownjourney.
(18:32):
What were those pivotal moments,those key places or people that
really shaped who you are? Yeah, or those unifying forces
in your own life, the things that helped you connect or see
things differently. And perhaps consider this, what
were your own Moody moments? You know those unexpected
twists, maybe seemingly small details or strange occurrences
that ended up having a really big influence on your path?
(18:55):
Exactly just like they did for Marc Fish.
Those subtle things that guide you, maybe sometimes without you
even realizing it at the time. Something to think about.
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