Mark Fish: A South African Football Odyssey

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
One of my first experience of muti, I mean that I carried my
own boots to the, you know, to the match and my kit bag get
there and it was changed. And next minute this guy is
telling me to put the boots in the middle of the the change
room. And next minute he's flicking
water on this thing. And I'm like, think my brother,
I polished those. Someone came to me and said you
would like me to come, Would I come?

(00:21):
And I mentioned this to Jomo. And you know, Jomo just said to
me, if you ever sign for Kaiser Chiefs, I'll make sure you never
play football in this country again.
The late Clive Barker, he alwaysused to tell me, please, this is
an important game. This actual day he said this is
an important game. Obviously it's the quarterfinal.
He said please just stay focusedon being a defendant because
that is your job. Yeah, Needless to say, I think

(00:41):
within the 1st 10 minutes I was inside the 18 yard area trying
to score a goal. We had the worst possible person
take us to the World Cup. The worst possible person.
Philip Truzia was a person that that the the Federation brought
into the national team and he split us from the beginning,
locally placed international best players.
Clive jumping ship brought in German, which is German.

(01:06):
German did well when we went to the Burkina Faso and he was
there and German introduced somenew young players, the Penny
Mccarthys, the Quinton Torch andTauron Buckleys.
He started bringing this back, which needed to happen.
Jomo goes and when's the sorry we lose in the final to Egypt,
then what happens? The federation get all excited,
know we need a big name to take us to the World Cup.

(01:28):
Come on, take someone that just now, whether you didn't want
Jomo or not, Jomo had just achieved something with a
youngish team. So take Jomo, let him go.
No, we need a for what? We need a what?
A more experienced coach to takeus to the World Cup?
Come on man, it's our first World Cup.
Let's go and experience it the best possible way we can as

(01:48):
South Africans. Hi Mark, how are you doing?
I'm very good and you ball. I'm good.
Mark, let me start by thanking you for, for joining us for the,
for the interview. I mean, you all the way up here
and hoping to, to have this interview with us, but you're

(02:09):
currently living in Durban. So perhaps let me just kick off
by asking you, what are you currently busy with and you
know, as a Pretoria boy, why areyou down in Durban and what are
you doing currently? Yeah, and I thank you for
inviting me onto your show. Most importantly, wishing you
guys all the success and best with interviewing us.

(02:32):
X players or whatever you want to call us because best you
interview us now because I thinkthe questions you're going to
ask me, I can still remember theanswers I'm sure, but it's
slowly fading away. But you know, I moved down down
there about four years ago to becloser to my to my younger kids.
Certainly during during lockdownthey had moved and which is

(02:53):
strange to say lockdown. What was that?
But I was able to commute to seethem.
And then I just took the decision, having having grown up
in Pretoria and been in Pretoriafor a long time since I came
back after retiring from football, took the decision to
move closer down to to them. And even though they live up in
in Hillcrest, I live closer to the ocean, which obviously makes

(03:14):
sense because the fish water ocean.
So I'm very comfortable where I am at the moment and enjoying
life. Thank you.
And in terms of football, are you still involved in any
capacity in football? So I, I am involved with, with
KUSAFA, the, the, the, the Federation of Southern African

(03:35):
Football. And I do some technical study
work with them. And then I'm part of their
legacy program, which is we do football development each
tournament that they, that they host wherever, wherever it is,
in whichever country, they invite me to come do a program
for boys and girls for under 15 there.
And then also I do some technical study group work for

(03:57):
CAF, the Federation, the, the Continents Federation.
And yeah, I just, I have my own foundation which we go around
the country and with the help ofsome corporates go around and
again football development, try and install football, thinking
football ways on the field and off the field for the youth

(04:18):
around South Africa, wherever wefind ourselves.
So very much in the development,development was developing of
football around the country. OK, all the best, Mark, with the
foundation and everything else that you're busy with.
We can then, just because we want to get to know and
understand Mark Fish, why aren't?

(04:39):
You never going to do that? Never going to.
I'm still trying to figure myself out, but we can try and
have an let's. Find one packet.
Let's find one packet. So you're.
Born in Cape Town. Born in Cape Town, my mother
left my father when I was 8 months old.
So she jumped on the train and got to Pretoria station where
her parents were and they fetched.

(05:01):
Obviously I don't know of this whilst this all happened, but I
grew up in Pretoria and, and I'malways adamant to say, and I'm
proud to say that even though I was born in Caton and was 8
months in Caton, I'm proud to say I'm a Stormer.
I'm not a, I'm not a Blue Bull rugby fan.
I'm always will be a Stormer. But yeah, I grew up in, in

(05:23):
Pretoria. I grew up in in Sunnyside and
then found myself going to Sunnyside Primary School,
walking the streets of Sunnyside.
My mother being a single parent,not having the the the, the if
you, you know, before the changein, in in South Africa, yeah,

(05:46):
not not the easiest of lives, but you know, having was able to
walk to school. Not, not kids nowadays can't
always just walk to school and be able to walk to football
training and to, to do the things that I loved playing in
the parks and, you know, simple,simple things that we enjoy
doing as as young kids in, in our community, in our community

(06:07):
in Sunnyside. I didn't find myself going to
Pretoria boys. So schooling was a, a, a unique
experience for me. If I look back now and see how
obviously how things have changed and you know, in 91 when
I matriculated was the first time I had a kid of colour in,
in coming to my school. And that was Pretoria boys.

(06:28):
I think he was a ambassador's kid at the time.
And obviously then realizing, not realizing things were
changing in South Africa that needed to happen.
But I unfortunately playing for when I said going to football
club and walking to a football club, having lived in Sunnyside.
Growing up in Sunnyside, I played for a club called Arcadia

(06:50):
Shepherds. Arcadia Shepherds wasn't too far
from where I lived and you know,from the age of 6 I was playing
on Arcadia. A kid from Sunnyside invited me
to go there. Not always playing at, at
Arcadia Shepherds. I mean at the ground at, at the
Caledonian, sometimes BrainswickPark, which was more in

(07:11):
Watercloof. That's where we used to train.
But I played for Arcadia Shepherds.
So I'm very fortunate to, to have played for a club where
that club didn't. It was more, more than just
football. It was a, a second home for me,
somewhere where I could play football, be safe, feel safe and
nurture, be nurtured or nurture the talent or, you know,

(07:32):
whatever was given to me on the football field.
So I'm very grateful to to have Arcadia Shepherds close to me
that I was able to develop as anindividual.
And Needless to say, not realizing at the time what
Arcadia Shepherds meant to me will always mean to me as an
individual and as a person, because that is what I had

(07:55):
learned there as a person and asa player and as a child,
certainly for things that I would take on further into my
life as a man. Yes, yes.
And you see that the first time you had a person of color in
school wasn't a trick. But when you're growing up as a
little boy, do you realize, I mean, in those times way before

(08:18):
I was even born, but do you realize at the time that we're
living in an abnormal society? Or does everything just seem
normal until at some stage you start to realize?
So I think it was abnormal, obviously abnormal, but normal
because this is what happening. And when I when it's abnormal, I
look at, if I look back now you pay attention to.

(08:41):
OK, yeah, but I can play, I can play football with my friends of
colour, whether it's black, Indian or coloured.
I can play football with them, but they not come into the same
school as me. So I think that's why I, I'm a
kid of 9:10, 11-12 years old in primary school.
I'm not, you know, I'm just there to, to go to school.

(09:03):
I'm not, certainly not, not going to change whatever's going
on in our country. But at, at my football club, it
was a little bit more normal. What, what you had friends that
were coming from, wherever they were coming from, we were
playing football. And This is why football will
always be the beautiful game because it is a ball you could

(09:26):
play barefoot and you could justrun around and kick and it
doesn't matter where your teammates because you would pick
your teammate not because of hiscolour or his culture.
You pick him because his ability.
And that's generally what happened playing for Acadia and
you know, when playing at a cluband that's how it would be

(09:48):
separate. OK, this is a training session.
Oh, I'm picking Jeffrey because Jeffrey is a very quick and
Jeffrey can score a lot of goalsand because of anything else.
So Arcadia taught me a lot of being able to see life in
nearly, I want to say nearly thethe real world and being able to
to hopefully, you know, judge things or look at things

(10:11):
differently and not just assume things as people do and say, you
know, this is how the world is and this is what how it should
be. But no, this is actually how the
world is and how it should be. So football gave me a lot and
you know, I've been before I've I've actually said to people as
a young kid, I didn't see color and people go, but how would you
say that? Well, obviously this black is

(10:33):
white is whatever colors they are.
But from a footballing point of view, I played football, whether
as a youngster, I was the majority probably, and then as
an older, the older I got, I became the minority.
And but that's football. And that's just people are
there, you are there to play football and people are there to

(10:54):
watch and they're there to support your talent, no matter
you know, your background or where you're from or your
culture. And that so that's why it's at
least to be a full game, even though probably when I was
growing up playing football, there was probably only black
and white on TV. But it's, it's certainly is a,
a, an Arcadia Shepherds was black and white colours, but

(11:17):
that's a a again, I think if there's people who look through
the history, there's many clubs like that around the country at
at the time. But Arcadia Shepherds was, you
know, I'm proud to say that I paid for a club that wanted to
install change on the football field.
And, and I think they certainly did try and do that.
In terms of, I mean, you mentioned the fact that your

(11:38):
your your mum had left your father at that time.
Did growing up in like a single parent household.
Do you think that had an impact on how you turn out to be as a
person and. So so if you look back then so
my mother had to then try and get 2 jobs.
She had two boys. I had an older brother and that

(12:01):
might that older brother he my mother leaving my father not
then my brother fell out of the train, a moving train, which
luckily wasn't at full speed, but so my brother was not only
having two children, my brother had to go to a Prince off is a
is a blind school in Pretoria. But because he was colour blind,

(12:21):
so he had he led a totally different life where he because
he went to Prince off it was more Afrikaans, more playing
rugby, more amateur wrestling and me going the other way,
playing football and doing more the English things.
So the the challenge was my mother having two jobs, having
to do whatever she can possibly to, to, to survive.

(12:45):
I grew up with my grandma. My grandmother was like a
headmistress at a, at a, or a teacher at a nursery school
where she lived, which is just around the block from where my
mother stayed. And I went to nursery school
there and I spent most of my time growing and because most of
my time at my my grandmother's house.
So again, it wasn't, it wasn't the most, what's the word

(13:09):
comfortable, easiest way out. But it was, I think it was the
norm for a lot of kids and it's the norm for many kids now
nowadays as well. So we just got on, got on with
it. But not having a father, if I
look back now and how the decisions that I made, I don't
know if my, my father, he has passed on now and I'm very

(13:30):
fortunate to have brought him and my brother together before
he passed on. I think a lot of a lot of
decisions would have been made anyway.
But I think that certain things would have maybe made a lot of a
lot more sense to, to, to me andmaybe more to my brother.
I think my, my brother, I think lost more when my mother left my

(13:55):
father then I did because I didn't know him.
But obviously I got to eventually know him.
And like I said, very fortunate to be able to bring me my
brother and my my father together before he passed on.
But yeah, I think decisions and whatever is whatever happened
were things that would have happened anyway.

(14:15):
So I'm grateful to have a motherhaving two jobs, having to do
whatever she needed to do, and then a grandmother day to
support, to support her in, in whatever she needed to do to, to
help me get through my, my very adventurous, very boisterous
youth where you play with your friends and you cause trouble.

(14:37):
But it's trouble that you know, doesn't get you arrested or
anything, but trouble that you do it again.
And it makes you, you have friends that you have stories to
tell when you, when you were 6789101112 years old that you
tell your kids now. And they probably don't believe
that those are the things that you were able to do.
So, you know, I'd say, I think at the the time I didn't you,

(15:02):
you teach yourself to do a lot of things where you teach
yourself to kick a soccer ball. Your mom's not going to teach
you to do that. Sort of think my mother said
that I sort of don't know what help I taught myself to swim.
Maybe my, you know, with probably an uncle brought you
out of swim, but certainly you you needed to grow up a lot

(15:24):
quicker than you would have if you had a.
Father. You had a father with you.
So, but that you know those those are things that.
The reality for. 100% those are the things you appreciate and
those are the things that you are.
Now. If I look back, it's again
things that I am. I missed out on having a father
around, but grateful that he wasn't around.

(15:45):
But I had other people there to support me to be the best
possible version I could be of myself.
By the way, Mark, before we moveon from your childhood, do you
remember a man called John Collier?
I do OK. He was your principal at.
Was it a principal at the time? So, so John Collier.
John Collier was a football coach of of mine at at Arcadia
Shepherds. John Collier was at Hamilton

(16:08):
Primary then so he came to Sunnyside Primary after me.
I had a very interesting youth going to Sunnyside Primary.
Until I left Sunnyside Primary, I only, I was taught only by
female. They were only female teachers.
The headmistress, all the teachers were female.
So it was interesting how I had a female teacher teaching me

(16:30):
cricket and a few months he was football if it was N for
swimming. So that probably helped me to be
a little bit more, I don't know,gentler on.
But yeah, I was, I was taught byby ladies and very fortunate to
to have had that experience because obviously going from
Sunnyside to Victoria boys, that's a different environment.
But then I wasn't. I wasn't taught by John Collier,

(16:52):
but I had him as a football. Coach OK, so I, I had him as a
coach. He coached me at Arcadia and at
provincial level and he'd he'd always speak about you like
you'd always mentioned the fact that you know he coached you so.
So, yeah, same. I feel for everyone that that
came after me. I think a lot of coaches used me
as about, you know, before me, there were stories about a

(17:14):
Michael Roger or a, a a Roy Wiggly.
You know, we're getting older, late, late.
Thomas Monahot, you know, who was an inspiration of mine
because, you know, having heard of Tommy at, you know, at
Arcadia and going on to where hewent on to move on to John
Mcosmos. And then I was very fortunate to
have an experience with Thomas. So, you know, we all have to

(17:37):
tell stories or we tell stories,which is a good thing at times
to to tell stories of people that before and maybe help
individuals realize that where you're coming from, there are
people that came from those difficult backgrounds before and
went on to succeed in if it's being a footballer or whatever
people want go on to succeed in.So I was inspired by people

(17:59):
before me to to be able to go and do what I did.
Then in terms of the football, so I want us to now focus on
your on your career when you're playing at Acadia as a as a
young boy. Firstly, are you like stand out
player at the time? Is it immediately obvious that
he probably the special one who's going to make it or and
you have those kind of dreams oryou just a boy playing?

(18:21):
So just, I think just a boy playing and then listening to
certain individuals, they, they will tell you no, they could see
that I think at times a year that maybe at under 10 level, I
was maybe a head taller than theother kids and a little bit
faster than the other kids. So I think that, you know,
coaches, football coaches probably assumed all, all

(18:44):
stamped at saying they, they expected me to go on to, to
perform at a higher level. But you know, at the time as a,
as a youngster, you playing sport going to Sunnyside
primary. I was happy playing cricket.
I was happy swimming, happy playing tennis and happy running
and do all the things as as you should do at a young age.
So I think maybe coaches probably put that more more on

(19:05):
me than anything else. But I was just a normal
youngster, teenager boy playing and hoping that the girls like
me because I was able to score many goals.
And when I got injured, got the sympathy of the girls.
And maybe and then afterwards, you know, and probably the thing
that that's brought me into a lot of peculiar moments or

(19:35):
choices in life would be probably because there was so
much expectation and of me of asa youngster and being able as a
youngster to play with a lot of older kids, you know, many
things come with that. So I think that, you know, at
the age of 14 is when I first touched alcohol.
And so no matter an act 1415 and16, I'm playing with grown men,

(19:59):
people that have got kids. So you're playing and you're
getting stuck. You're not getting stuck.
You're in that environment and this is what's going to happen.
And so as much as the excitementof being able to be an attack, I
was a striker. So I grew up as a striker and I
was very fortunate to have unbelievable players that put
the ball behind. I was quick and you could score
many goals and. So I must say over the young

(20:22):
age, having to play with all theplayers.
And with that comes, you know, other choices that you do.
And you know which it was, that was the environment that I grew
up in, you know, playing amateurfootballs, doing doing well with
the my club Arcadia Shepherds, you, you celebrate and you have
a beer after them. And this is what it does.

(20:42):
And it's it was AI grew up very quickly and I had to grow up
very quickly if I wanted to, I suppose, make a stand in in that
football culture. And that's what a sporting
culture. I think it was you you play
football hard and after game youhave a beer together and you
celebrate it. And then you you wait until

(21:04):
Tuesday when you train again. And then you train hard and you
wait until the Saturday and you again, you play hard.
And if you get the right result,then I don't think you needed
the right result. You had a beer anyway.
So just to celebrate the Camaradio being together and and
suppose that was the the the family that I grew up with with
being at all at all Arcadia Shepherds.

(21:25):
And then you, you then kick start your professional career.
Jomo Cosmos take us through thatmove.
You know how how does an Arcadiaboy find himself playing for for
Jomo Cosmos at that time? So I think it was it was an easy
way. I already had had I played from
the age of 16. I was playing for the, the

(21:47):
senior team and the individual there by the name of Paul
Matthews who was playing with me.
He told his dad, who was Roy Matthews, who was together
coaching Jomo Cosmos with Jomo. But then obviously Roy came to
watch me and Roy told Jomo aboutme.
So I was, I was fortunate I had a, you know, you have many kids
that want to be footballers and at times it is you need a lucky

(22:12):
break. And then my lucky break was that
I was playing with someone whosewhose father was a coach of
German Cosmos who was able to get to tell Joma about me so
that he can come and watch me play.
So and again was easy for Joma to come watch me play because he
had just found Thomas Madaha. He not just found, but a couple
of years before he had found Thomas Madaha.

(22:33):
He from, you know, from Arcadia Shepherds and, and took him
under his wing. So to come and watch again,
they, they, I think at times that's always the challenge of
someone. If you you introduce a player
and if it's a good player, then it's easy if you introduce
another player, But if you introduce a bad player, well you
think it's a good player and it's not, then the person is

(22:54):
hard to. Refer more players. 100% So I
was fortunate. And then the step of going from,
of Arcadia to to term or Cosmos was it was the next natural step
to happen in a, from an amateur to a semi professional
footballing career, which was itwas a step easily made.

(23:17):
I was 17/20/18. So I wasn't driving a car yet.
I don't think so. So we all, there was four or
five of us got on the back. The, the, the physio was from
Victoria. We all drove through to, to, to,
to, to Cosmos, to the, to the training ground, which was in

(23:37):
Primrose at the time to go to gopractice there.
And yeah, it's, it was the natural next step for me to be
signed as, as a, as a striker toreplace which was never going to
happen, to replace the late which had moved on.
So that was always going to be difficult, which obviously had

(23:58):
never happened because I I don'tthink I played too many games as
a as a striker. Then I but moved to central
defender because the late FreddyBundo, who got sent off in the
what is now the net bank cup, which used to be the Bob save.
He got sent off in the semi final in the first half.
And then Joe Moss go play at theback and we're going to say the

(24:19):
rest is is history. So played at the back of the
ever since after that semi finalin the in 19.
How difficult was this transition from being as fast
strikers running in behind defenders to now being the
defender? So it's, it's if I look back and
it, it nearly was the then I nearly want to say the natural

(24:40):
thing to happen because becominga defender you even though it's
obviously at an older age, but for my whole life, for from the
age of 6 up until 6/17/18, I, I played as a striker.
So you understand how? You think?
And how you think and how the strikers think and how the

(25:02):
attacking players want to play. So listen, it doesn't mean that
I suddenly became a defender. I was a defender that wanted to
go score goals. It was a, it was a unique way of
Jomo putting me at the back and allowing me to sort of still
play my natural game, which was to try and score goals.
But yeah, it was a it was an easy way to to adapt and the

(25:27):
probably the most people ask me my favorite position or
sometimes ask me do I do. I think I would have made it as
a striker. That never happened.
But I did go on trial to Macklinas a team in Belgium and John
Most sent me to and. As a striker.
No, no, as a defender, but I, I played the with the first team

(25:49):
in a training and that and I actually played as a, as a
midfielder, which Needless to say the holding midfielder would
have is my favorite position. And if anyone remembers 1994,
the inauguration game we played against Zambia, I was already
playing for for Pirates. I think Clive was introducing

(26:11):
his team and we still had Steve Compella and Lucas were the
central defenders, but he neededto find a place for me
unfortunately because Pirates were performing well.
So you put me in midfield next to Neil, Toby and that was my
one hour only game, unfortunately, to play for the
national team as a as a as a midfielder.

(26:31):
But I really enjoyed it and thatwas actually my favorite
position. But needs to say, obviously you
had players come in and do you know Eric come in, but midfield
was actually my favorite position to play.
You know, Cosmos, one moment youguys are playing in the
continent, you're probably the first or one of the first South
African teams to play in the CAFat the time, and then the next

(26:54):
moment you relegate. Please explain that.
How do you get from the eyes of playing on the continent?
Now I'm getting relegated. So I don't know, it's football
first of all, I need to tell youand I've done as before, but
first of all, my going to Cosmosand playing my first

(27:15):
professional game, I have to mind not to remind but tell
everyone of my first experience of Mutti.
I mean, that is very much we know Jomo likes to use and it's
a cultural thing for him and andfor the club and, you know,
playing in phosphorus and you gothere and remember we are semi
semi pro. So we train twice a week and

(27:37):
next minute so we had to Polish our own boots.
So I carried my own boots to the, you know, to the match and
my kit bag get there and he was changed the next minute.
This guy is telling me to put the boots in the middle of the
the change room and next minute he's flicking water on this
thing and I'm like, think my brother.
I polished those. Those are my own boots.

(27:57):
I polished. And Needless to say, I can't
remember the result, but that was my first experience and, you
know, travelling into Africa. So we had, you know, we we got
into Africa because of losing the Bob say final two Kaiser
Chiefs that year. I Needless to say, I'm next

(28:18):
minute I'm playing Bob say finalfrom the semi final.
I think maybe that might have been only my second or third
game as a as a central defender,playing against the likes of
Albert Boiler and you know, the chiefs players that are and so
so that was a big jump for me. I had to learn quickly and then
we play next, as you said, next minute we're playing in Africa.

(28:40):
We had a a good bunch of playersthat are good.
We had a good team, but we had good characters.
And when I say good character, we had strong characters.
So we we travelled into Africa with German, didn't travel.
I think German travelled one match with us.
The rest of the time it was either Roy Matthews.

(29:00):
If it wasn't Roy Matthews, then it was us alone as a team.
And I think that was our one of our biggest challenges as a
team. We was, we went to Madagascar
and at the time there was only aweekly flight to Madagascar.
So we flew in the Saturday, we played the Sunday.
We had to wait until the following Saturday to leave very

(29:21):
poor country and then you know, by Wednesday you are seeing
players fight over food. So that that was a tough
experience, but it was a you nearly sometimes want to say
it's an experience that needed to happen for players to realize
what they do have and, and also gave us a lot of character.
So, you know, we travelled into Burundi, we travelled into many

(29:44):
different countries. Ivory Coast is the country that
we eventually we travelled into the the old Zaire and Kinshasa
and eventually, you know, into Ivory Coast, which is the
sporting is the team that we lost to hope in any way.
But a phenomenal experience of character.

(30:04):
And as you said, it must have been because this is 92, this is
93 and we only got readmitted toworld football 92.
So we must have been one of the with Chiefs been the 1st 2 clubs
to. Participate here.
And so, and we did phenomenally well and then come back to the
local league and next minute youfind yourself you're playing a

(30:25):
game a must. I think it was a must game win
and a game at Vitz. Yeah, Moorpark.
And I think we obviously we lostthat game and or we drew that
game, whichever, but we ended upgetting relegated.
So you find yourself of the highs and lows of, of the
sporting world and for whatever reason, many different reasons,

(30:46):
probably, you know, players, theteams changing players, you're
playing in one, one team you're playing in Africa and the next
team you're not playing the, the, the team.
Yeah, in the local league, so many things.
But you know, things happen for a reason and if there's not
cohesion in in playing in Africaand playing at home, then things
it's going to happen. So you know, unfortunately, as I

(31:08):
said, as you mentioned it, the highs of playing, getting to the
semi final of what is now the Confederations Cup to getting
relegated in the league was a major.
Major, I think is obviously not obviously the biggest
disappointment for me in my football footballing career.
First biggest disappointment in my footballing career and it was

(31:30):
now. After that happened I was left
left in limbo. What now?
Wait till now. Then the move to Pirates
happens. I think it happens in 94, eh,
893 or early 94. I mean, you've said, you've said
on other platforms that you didn't really choose to go to
Pirates. You know, can you just take us?
So no, it wasn't pirates wasn't.I mean, I just I think of more

(31:57):
19 years old and you know, wait till now, your teams just got
relegated and this was all not what you expected.
And now I found myself having togo meet with Joma in in elbow.
That's where Cosmos officers were.
So were the other teams. And then I had bumped into and

(32:18):
and this is, you know, football,the football world then and who
knows if it's part of it now, but the PR from Kaiser Chief.
Yes, yes. And he bumped in me and said no
he would the fans. I don't know how true it is by
him saying the fans were writingletters into to see me and Lucas

(32:38):
play together, but I don't thinklong after that Lucas left.
Anyway, I went upstairs and toldJomo that I did say Jomo, this
is this guy came to me and then our judies.
But we can. So that was my first.
Oh, someone came to me and said you would like me to come, Would
I come? And I mentioned this to Jomo and

(32:59):
you know, Jomo just said to me, if you ever signed you, I will
make sure you know, if you ever signed for Kaiser Chiefs, I'll
make sure you never play football in this country.
Yet that's a fact that was said to me.
I didn't think much of it. It's like, OK, Jomo, there's a
lot of things that Jomo said even when I when he was
coaching, it's like you look at it and you as much as Jomo gave

(33:24):
me an opportunity, you didn't always I didn't always take Jomo
for Jomo serious and what he what came out of his mouth.
So to say that it's like to a 19year old kid that's it's a
little bit over the top. I think it's more is more that
you don't, you don't go play forthat team because you either
play at Cosmos or you go to another team and and soon find

(33:44):
out that other team is a land ofpirates.
So I find myself just being toldto go to land of pirates, which
I'm I'm grateful for it. I'm grateful that I was told to
go to a team that gave me so much, ended up giving me so
much. So, and the the move was made so
much simpler because we had, I had five of my other team mates

(34:07):
join me at, at Pirates. So, you know, I've heard how
Helman got there. It was another story.
So yeah, we, we, we were, we were pushed towards a team,
which at the end of the day, that's a team Jomo played for
and that's where he made his name.
So why not? If the end of the day, that's
the club that he wanted to support with his players, then

(34:30):
so be it. So it is something that didn't
happen now as, as maybe I wantedit to happen, but it happened.
And you know, when I look back at it now, it was me being able
to go to, to Orlando Pirates. It was probably the the best
move I could have ever made as aas a footballer at the time in,
in, in South Africa and in, in South African football history.

(34:55):
Like we've we've interviewed like more recent players who've
made like the transition from like smaller team to like in
Land of Pirates. So I just want to compare it
with your times when you move from Cosmos to Pirates.
Firstly, what is the pay difference?
How much are you getting at Cosmos and how does that

(35:16):
increase? When you look at the pay, the
pay difference, it's, it's a, it's a more the pay difference
at the time didn't matter. It's just you were guaranteed
your pay. So my first paycheck that I got
from from Cosmos, I got it was 800 Rand.
And yeah, old Germano was banking at the Bank of Lisbon.

(35:36):
And I got it on a Thursday and Iwent to Friday morning all
relaxed to go and check, go cashmy check.
Yeah. The cheque bounced.
Then eventually your players, you just tell you that if John
was giving you a cheque, make sure that you want it.
You must be one of the first people at the bank before the
money runs out. But anyway, that was it.
And Pirates was that never happened at Pirates.

(35:57):
So I think the I think the the the jump was 800 to Pirates.
I think it was don't know. So it was 800 that it was 1600
at yeah Pirates. No, no, at Cosmos told my second
year that year and then Pirates was a Pirates was a jump, but I
think pirates was could have been about 88000.

(36:18):
I think so, but the Muslim said louder.
I think I was getting a lot of money.
My teammates. I'm sorry, right.
I fought for my James to get more money.
That's the only he was my roommate.
So I fought for him. But I think, yeah, it was, or it
was 4 and became eight in the second year.
But you know, when, when I look back at that, it wasn't about
the money. It really wasn't.

(36:39):
It is about playing football. And you know, even, you know,
not many people talk about it. And I fortunately I wasn't, I
lived in Pretoria. But you know, leading up to that
Bob Save final match against theKaiser Chiefs, you know, that
the Bank of Lisbon got robbed in, in Johannesburg and some of
our my team mates were in that bag cashing their cheques, the
cashing their cheques. So they, they had a bit of

(37:01):
trauma, traumatic experience trying to get their money.
But you know, we have we've had experiences and my experiences
as as a footballer outweigh everything that I could have
ever had from any money that waspaid or wasn't paid or, you
know, to me as as a person, as aas a young, as a young man.
So, you know, the pirates going there, the experience of, of

(37:24):
playing for isn't cozy and for Jomo going into the, the, the
Township, into the communities, playing against the pirates and
playing against all these big teams and then finding yourself
playing for, for landed pirates.It's a, it's the for, for any
person that wants to achieve anything in football or yeah,

(37:46):
wants to achieve anything in football is that's the next
natural step is to, to play for,for a team of that statue and,
and that of knowing, you know, the, of the, the people, the
club, the fans. I was just very fortunate to
have an experience of being ableto play for that club for, for
two years of my footballing career.

(38:06):
So no matter how I got there or what I went through to get
there, I was, I'm fortunate to say I played for Atlanta
Pirates. And you're coached by Mike
McCabe. I mean, it's I don't think I
know anyone else who's made a transition from being a coach to
like a top agent. I mean, he's like one of the
best agents around. Now.
How was Mike as a coach? Because most, most of us, just

(38:27):
I've heard of Mike, no Mike as an agent, but as a coach, how
was he? So Mike came in, I think, and he
came in at a club that I don't think it was, like I said, it
was five of us from Cosmos that came there.
I don't know. I think Eddie, Eddie was coming
from Dynamos. There was a few players coming
from Dynamo John Moeti. So it was a new team and he had

(38:49):
to mould this team and for them to, to, to be able to play and
obviously the you had to win. That's that was, that was
expected. So Mike was, I think he did
everything he needed to do as a coach.
He, he got us united as a team in however way he possibly could

(39:09):
and he put together a team that was able, able to perform.
So, you know, 94 was an important year because of what
happened in the country, the change in the country.
And I know Doctor Corza wanted Pirates to win the league that
year, and fortunately we went onto win it.

(39:32):
Yeah, that's just you. Won the league.
I think you won the Bob save as well.
Yeah, we won the league, but that that is that year I also
had a car accident and so quite a severe car accident.
Well, it wasn't as severe as as it could have been, but I know,
I know that Joma came to see me in the hospital and he just

(39:53):
asked the nurse if my knees are OK and the nurse said yes and
said no, you'll be fine. But you know, at 94 was
interesting because the the the the national team getting Clive
Barker there many changes was happening in South African
football and you know, for whatever being involved in a car
accident, being then part of theteam for for Orlando Pirates

(40:15):
that went on to to win the league.
I was very fortunate to be part of many things that was
happening in South Africa. Forget the football field, but I
was just at the football field as well.
So again, it's now that you're asking the question, I look
back, back with I, I reminded why I went to Paris and how I
got there. But the rest is the rest is the

(40:37):
rest is more important than anything else.
So the, the experience is the, the, the friendship, the people
that I met playing for, for, forOrlando Paris and playing for in
that, in that league team. But again, the, the players that
I, that I went with and was ableto fortunately go with from,

(40:58):
from Cosmos to that Pirates team.
It's it's fond memories and I hold those memories to the
greatest team in my life becauseit's people that I enjoyed being
around, enjoyed being with and we created a lot of good
memories and and history in South African football.
So I'm very fortunate to have experienced that.

(41:19):
And then and the doctor, Ivan Kwasa, did you have a
relationship with him at the time?
Do you still have a relationshipwith him?
Can you? Just what kind of a man is he
for those of us who never had the pleasure of meeting him?
So Doctor Kwasa knows what he wants and he will tell you that
and he's expectant of all the players, but play for landed
pirates to understand that what a landed pirate is.

(41:41):
There's no player that will everbe bigger than the club and
bigger than the, the history of the club.
So I, I obviously very fortunateto have met him and understood
what he wanted from me as an individual for the club when I,
when I got there and we had a, we had a unique way of

(42:03):
understanding and expectations of each other.
Reason being is that in, in 94, I was very fortunate to have the
opportunity where he, he called me into the office and said to
me that, you know, Harry Redner from West Ham is interested in
me going to West Ham. And then he told me openly, he
said he told him no, he does notwant me to go and because he

(42:27):
wanted me to stay there. And This is why why I am very
fortunate to have stayed and gone to Pirates because we won
the league then we won the league that year.
And then the following year he called me in again and same
person that come back for an interested and I said no because
I felt that something special was happening about to happen at

(42:50):
that club, at Orlando Pirates. And he was to say we went on to
win the African Champions Leaguefor the first time and the only
time and I was part of a team. The history of the club, which
is phenomenal. While I sit here I am getting
pins and needles going through my body because it worked out.

(43:11):
I was very lucky it worked out for me that I stayed at the club
and got what what needed to happen.
And then I was very fortunate tobe able to get the move to to
move on. But the Pirates, the the
Pirates, that 95 team, we don't talk enough about the the
individuals that came from that Cosmos team, that experience of
playing in Africa, understanding.

(43:31):
And you know, and sometimes whenyou hear the stories, you know,
not not too long ago I heard howNigeria were treated in one.
Was it in Liberia how they were treated at the airport?
You know, those things were realand it happened and surprises
still happening, but we had realsituations that happened.
And you know, Needless to say, the day that we had the return
leg and went to Ivory Coast, we were fortunate to have Doctor

(43:54):
Koza go with us because the hotel that they were putting us
in was not conducive for any football player because, you
know, footballers, they get up to mischief and that would have
just been a disarray and that's what they try to do.
He moved us to a proper hotel and we were able to focus on and
as I said, very fortunate to have been involved with a club

(44:14):
for two years and to have that experience of going on to win
the African Champions League. And let's talk about the
Champions League campaign. I mean, in recent times, I think
Sundance, with what they've beendoing, everyone is more focused
now on the champion, the CAF Champions League, but you're
obviously the first South African team to win it back
then. Now when you started that

(44:36):
campaign, what were the expectations and how big was the
Champions League to you guys at the time?
Did you realize then what you were about to go on and achieve,
or was it just another? Just another?
I think it was sure it's a good question because and I would
like to probably think back and have the the discussion that
Doctor Causor probably had with us as a team, because like I

(45:00):
said, some of us had played in Africa before.
And I would like to think he probably knowing the person, I
think that was what he wanted toachieve.
He wanted we've won the league now let's go and win the whole
thing on the continent. So I know probably a lot of
focus was in that, you know, thethe the early games that we
played. But I think that the focus would

(45:24):
have been probably to go, let's go see how far we can go and do
this on the continent. And once we got to a certain
point is let's go all the way and, and make sure that we
wouldn't. So it would have been a
discussion that would have been laid out there for us.
And neither don't don't get me wrong, there were a lot of
different things that happened on the way for us to get there,
but that happened. And you know the again, it's the

(45:48):
rest is history. So just we're going to call out
this team, Williams of Para and goals, Majenz Motale U, Gavin
Lane, Pirito Teti. No, open my boozer.
Open my boozer. Yeah, John Muieti.
Jobreti. Mango, Brendan.

(46:09):
Silent, Hellman, Mcbachelor. Cheris Kosano.
Missing one because Jerry was alone.
Bachelor came on for Jerry or came on for someone.
So there's always someone that you always forget and that's why
there's you coming out of that team.
If you had asked me to name the team, I would probably got 3 or
4 players. Oh.

(46:31):
My gosh, no. Don't say that that's just that
is that is a thing. But just sorry to interrupt you.
I think that, you know, we touchon that and then, yeah, Bruce,
Bruce. There were some players that did
phenomenally well. Yeah.
Bruce was just someone that yeah, he was at the Pirates team

(46:53):
at the right time and he bachelor came on for Bruce.
It must have. Been.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It came on from.
Bruce so but that that game is it's a a it's a fond memory.
It's a sometimes a memory that when you I'm sure if you asked
any player that played in that game, they will remember every

(47:14):
single minute of that game. Reason being is that I'll lead
up to that match and that actualmatch happening.
The 1990 plus minutes. It's surreal to this day.
It's it is why football, it's the beautiful game because no
one in South Africa gave us a chance.

(47:34):
No one. And rightfully, I don't think we
gave us a chance. We we probably when I say we
gave us a mini, we knew we couldgo on and any day beat any team.
But to go to to Abidjan and to play against Azim Munoz, we were
just beat. We had just drawn with us 22 at
home, a very strong nation, footballing nation and to go

(47:55):
then and and get the best possible result, the only
possible result actually that wouldn't lead to penalties on it
is one nil. The score draw is you have to go
3/3 on this, but point being is and that's the result.
We got one nil victory, scoring in the 72nd, 73rd minute, still

(48:19):
having to defend for 20 minutes.How we how we did not concede
that day, I really do not know. We but I think you just
mentioned there that you had Williams of Para, you had the
Edward Mitali, the Oppa Mabusa, the Gavin Lanes, they had the
John Moeti, the Innocents, the Helmand, the Brennan Silence.

(48:41):
You had a team that, as I said, the further we got into that
tournament, we knew this is whatthe the chairman wanted and what
the fans wanted as well. Well, when I say fans, meaning
the fans that came to the stadium, there's an expectation
no matter which Pirates team, whatever trophy or game you're
playing in, there's an expectation.
So going to, to, to Ivory Coast now, they probably had 1520

(49:06):
fans. Those were the hierarchy.
They were travelling with the team and then 60,000 fans were
for ASIC. But I think that the journey of,
of playing in different countries and I'm always a fond
member. I always remember fondly the
semi final against Uganda Express because I have a picture
of me celebrating with Gavin scoring the winning goal and how

(49:31):
you had Uganda Express and you had two other local teams that
were in Uganda in compiler supporting us because they're
against Uganda Express. And you know, that's that's fond
memories. And then to to remember that
what we experienced in Abidjan, that one little result, the
team, the players, the the technical staff, everyone
involved with the land of Pirates in that stadium.

(49:54):
It's it's something that yeah, that those people, everyone that
was in the stadium for Pirates or there for Pirates share the
SNBSNBC crew, sport crew. That's something that's very
difficult to describe because to, to quieten 60,000 fans is a
it's a massive task and we were very fortunate to experience
that and do that. And I think you also won the

(50:17):
Super Cup after that. So the Super Cup is my last game
that I played for Pirates, Yes, played at FMB Stadium and fond
memories and it's the last game.And then I eventually I had
already signed for, for Lazio, but then I moved on there.
So the Super Cup was just like it was a it's a fond memory of
one that again to for the, the chairman allowed me to be the

(50:40):
captain of the day. I was the captain for the team
and to win it obviously is was anice a nice way to send me off
to to to Europe. And Mark, let's just return to a
club, club carrier. So but we more or less around
early 96 now in the in the timeline.
But I just want to take a step back and now talk about the
national team and just bring it in that timeline as well.

(51:04):
Your debut for fun of a fun of you remember when that was?
Yes, the debut was 93. I was still 19 years old.
I got called up for the nationalteam to go to America to yeah,
to go with the national team andfind myself.

(51:27):
I had been called up before I went.
I travelled with the team to to Mauritius, but it wasn't in the
squad and it was to experience and then went to the to America
and Palacios then selected me and then I was on the bench and
I think, I'm not sure what the score would have been at the
time, but we played Mexico in Los Angeles and then the score

(51:48):
ended up being 4 nil. But I came on somewhere.
I think I was at one stage I wasin midfield and I was at right
back and then at right midfield and to a point where, yeah, it
was my debut. So it just came and went very
quickly. I remember us losing 4 nil but
it was in, it was in Los Angelesagainst Mexico and that was my

(52:11):
experience of my debut. I think that the thing that
upset me at the time the most was that we were in America.
We had a club nightclub that youcould go to, or it was, I think
it was in the hotel or just outside the hotel, only
connected to the hotel. But I wasn't able to go because
you had to be over 21. So I think that was the most

(52:32):
disturbing thing at the time, I think.
But yeah, I still remember Joma calling me and asking me which
position I played. I said they played me
everywhere. I don't know myself.
So that was a, it was a very strange memory or strange
experience of my, of my debut, but you know, came back and
eventually. So you played for the four by
fours? I had a 4 by 4 experience.

(52:54):
I did. Certainly did.
But when do you then? At which point do you feel like,
OK, now I'm a national team regular, particularly centre
back because ultimately you became a fun starting centre
back. At which point do you think you
became a regular? So I think that, you know,

(53:16):
probably, you know, you started,we had it the the symbol for
nations. We had these tournaments and,
you know, because of the, because of Orlando Pirates doing
well, you know, Clive is, you know, had to, yeah, you had to,
changes had to be made. And, you know, unfortunately,

(53:36):
Steve Compeller, you know, that's the person that I I think
I probably ultimately started replacing because, you know,
just of age and just that was the natural progression for me
and probably for the national team.
So found myself there, you know,playing next to Neil.

(53:57):
If Lucas was overseas for the some Four Nations and then once
Lucas came back, then it was with Lucas.
But I think that's I think that was probably expectant after the
the success of Pirates in 94 during the 94 season, even
though I had the car accident that, you know, it'd be called

(54:17):
up to the national team and probably become more irregular
next to my the playing partners that were selected.
So, you know, probably and that was really the the well, but
actually probably once even eventhough Cosmos getting ready
yeah, I think it was just a natural progression after after

(54:37):
making the debut. I mean, some players were coming
of age yeah, so things just happened.
That's. Then you move from the highs of
winning the 95 Champions League with Pirates.
Then we all know what happens a year later.
Then win the F Con with the national team going into the
tournament, the expectations amongst the amongst the team,

(55:02):
the pressure, the expectation. Did you go in there thinking
you're going to win this, or wasit more like let's just see what
happens kind of thing? So again, the national team, so
I think if you remember that with the national team, player
friendly against Germany, yes, but we weren't part of it, the
Pirates players because we were up in Africa.

(55:23):
So the guys were started performing and we started
showing that we are capable of playing against some of the best
teams in the world. I think once the squad was
selected, the players, I think it was then having the, the,
the, the Springboks that had won, just won the Rugby World
Cup the year before, coming to our change room and, you know,

(55:47):
telling us and showing us. They showed us on the rugby
field what what is what is possible, having them to come
support us, then walking out andthem supporting us walking
around the field but walking outto if a full packed FMB stadium
which you can imagine. So the first game against
Cameroon, I think. Yeah, yeah.
First game against Cameron, You,you're playing knowing that our

(56:11):
record going into the African Cup nation was good.
We were winning for symbol for nation.
We'd just beat Zimbabwe there and you know, other friendlies
and then we just set the the stadium alike that that first
game. I was, I think we, we made a
standpoint of we set the standard for what was going to
happen with this team. The the late shoes was

(56:34):
phenomenal. The late chipper, you know, Mark
Williams, just everyone in duckies, everyone just they the
players. It was like the moment had
arrived for South African football.
Yes, yes, a lot of the past in the history of South Arabian
football players that never had the chance to play for South
Africa and a big tournament likethis, this is our first African

(56:56):
Cup of Nations and we are at home.
And the it's the players performed exactly as was
expected. Yes, the final result was 3 nil.
It could have been more, but I think after that game in the
change room, not verbally, they don't know, just go and win this
thing now. I think there was just like.

(57:18):
We've. Beaten.
We've beaten the number one ranked team, yeah, you know,
comfortably, You know, I think it was a quiet thing amongst us
saying just perform like this. Who knows how far we can go and
how well we can do in this tournament?
You beat coming in three nil. I think you beat Angola, then
you lose to Egypt but by then you've already qualified.

(57:40):
You didn't play the quarter final against Algeria, only you
square goal. I think we won 21.
What were you doing up there? Like it's just.
So yeah, sadly or not sadly, it's like the the late Cloud
Barker you always used to tell me please this is an important
game this actual day. He said this is an important
game. Obviously it's the quarterfinal.
He said please just stay focusedon being a defendant because

(58:01):
that is your job. Yeah, Needless to say, I think
within the 1st 10 minutes, I wasinside the 18 yard area trying
to score a goal. But yeah, I was fortunate to
score the the opening goal. And then we we conceded and then
we had at school. I think it's one of the best
goals. It was that tournament that the
late shoes scoring the, the, the, the winning goal for us.

(58:23):
And so it was a just a strange game where if you look at the
goal, how how are they, why I'm there, who knows, but this is
what I'm doing. And then we concede and then you
know, you know, shoes goes and scores an unbelievable goal.
So it's, it was just the way thetournament went.
You know, as you said, we just lost 2, but we had qualified,
but we'd lost and then changes came and then we go on and win

(58:45):
that. And then at the end of the day,
no dis disrespect to to any other team or, or Tunisia, but
our final was against Ghana. Our final was Ghana.
Whoever won that was going to goon and win the tournament.
And again, it was one of those. It was a night where everyone
that needed to perform, performed.
That's the three nil. Again, that's the three nil.

(59:05):
Three nil again, it could have been more.
When I say everyone performed, Lucas had Yoboa in his pockets.
Little things like that. Just things happened as it
should be and as it the footballguards looked down and just we
performed the the fans in the stadium that night.
It was just it was electric and the the result was as you said,

(59:27):
the three nil and then come the final.
The final was as was an expectation.
Expectation. Not when we would score, when
will we win this game and Needless to say, the great.
Mark Williams stepped up, Yeah. Willie stepped up and well, he
stepped onto the field as a replacement and came on and

(59:48):
scored two goals that he will tell you the nation builder
which he he certainly performed and came on and and scored two
memorable goals, not only for for himself, but for South
African football and for the history of South African
football and again. Seeing the, the euphoria in the
stadium, the fans in the stadiumand then after, you know,

(01:00:10):
outside what, what we had achieved, you know what rugby
achieved the year before we had achieved in football and it was,
it just was an electric time to be, be, to be a South African in
the sporting world and in the country.
And Clive as a coach, what was it about him?
I mean he just managed you guys look when you are out on the

(01:00:32):
field, obviously wanted to play for the country, but it also
looked like he wanted to play for Clive.
What was it about him? How did he get the best out of
everyone and get everyone on hisside?
So I think not enough is given to Clive's technical
attitudinous of of how he playedand the players that he played.
Because everyone says that Clivewas a, a players coach.

(01:00:55):
Yes, he was 100%, but he knew which players to put away and
how to play them and how formation, you know, and it was
it a 352? Was it a 532 or whatever?
Because you're having me bombing, bombing forward.
And yeah, Tinkler had to sit back.
Clive knew what he wanted to do with the with the players that
he had. And then in the change of, he

(01:01:16):
just got the best out of the players.
He he made us believe that we could beat any team in the world
and and on any given day we feltthat we could as we certainly
went out and tried to do that and most times it worked and
sometimes it didn't. But he we had the full support
of the coach and even just to tosay how, you know, telling me

(01:01:41):
that I must defend, but I'm going forward.
He's still allowed it because hedidn't had someone like thinking
me. He was dropped back in.
So he allowed for the things to us to be the best possible
players that we can be for our team and for each other on the
field. And to have a coach like that
to, to, to allow you to do that.You know, I think all the
players that played in that squad and all the players that

(01:02:02):
wanted to get into that squad knew that's what Clive wanted
and expected. And we all just had just fell
into place playing for playing for him as a as a as a player
and him for us as a coach. And Speaking of the formation,
I've always been very curious because I've you've never quite
understood exactly what formation you played.
And I'll tell you, I say that right.

(01:02:23):
Initially when Lucas, I think Lucas was coming from an injury,
when Lucas didn't play and DavidNatty played it, it was more
straightforward because you had CS on the other side, you had
David on the but for example, inthe final, so it's you, it's you
Tovi and Lucas all started and you've only got 1 full back in
in. So what?

(01:02:44):
What was the arrangement today? What formation was it?
Was there formation or was it more?
So if you look at the final is agood way to look at it because
that would look a little bit. You're not sure.
Yeah, where the semi final you'dknow because Lucas is man for,
man for. Tonya boy.
Yeah, yeah, he's man for man. Yeah, yeah.

(01:03:06):
I don't know. I just played man.
That's a good question. Now that you ask is like what?
But I think generally it was a it was a 352 formation.
OK, so the the Toby's the sweeper, yes.
And me and Lucas picking, picking up.
And if I'm not picking up, then Tinker's picking up and I'm
going forward supporting Seaswayon the right.
So yeah, it was a 352 formation.All right.

(01:03:27):
And then the F Con comes and goes.
You then go to the Confederations Cup in in Riyadh
in 1997. I mean, I think you, you drew
one game there, you drew againstCzech Republic.
Who's just lost the the the final of the.

(01:03:48):
Euro 90. 6 EUR 96, yeah. You you lost one nil against the
UAE I think. Yeah, Yeah, I think so.
And then you lost fourthly against Uruguay last game.
You think that was why Clive wasfired because you were
eliminated in the group stage inthe tournament?
Because. But I think it's a, it's a known

(01:04:10):
story where there probably was areason, but Clive has come out
and said that Clive came out andsaid, you know, he heard that
they were. So he jumped ship and he's
apologized. He apologized saying that he
should never jumped ship. And again, if, if that was the
reason why they were going to, it's the most ridiculous reason
ever because Clive got the job and his job was to try and win

(01:04:35):
the, the AFCON, which you did, and qualify for the World Cup,
which you did. So why go to a tournament where
you now it's the first real tournament outside playing in
the top teams in Africa, you're playing against the the best
other teams in the different continents.
You just mentioned that the old Czech Republic and Uruguay.

(01:04:56):
My gosh. So it's, it's a it's a nothing
tournament. At the end of the day.
It was us getting back together,US playing against the the other
nations around the world becauseit was, it was not going to give
us any credibility or take away any credibility.
So it was it's, I think Clive eventually saw that and it was
silly. It was and it was very

(01:05:16):
detrimental to said if you ask that now and I'll answer, it
comes to me. But it's very sad because it
played a part, unfortunately played a very big part in South
African football game from thereto game there because Clive
jumping ship brought in German, which is German.
DOMA did well when we went to the Burkina Faso and he was

(01:05:39):
there and DOMA introduced some new young players, the Benny
McCarthy's, the Quinton Fortunes, Dalram Buckleys
started bringing this play whichneeded to happen.
DOMA goes and when's the sorry? We lose in the final to Egypt,
then what happens? The federation get all excited.
No, we need a big name to take us to the World Cup.
Come on, take someone that's just now, whether you didn't

(01:06:01):
want Jomo or not, Jomo had just achieved something with a
youngish team. So take Jomo, let him go.
No, we need a for what? We need a what?
A more experienced coaster to take us to the World Cup.
Come on man, it's our first World Cup.
Let's go and experience it the best possible way we can as S
Africans. And we had strange.
I was thinking about this individual not not knowing that

(01:06:25):
you're going to ask me, but we had the worst possible person.
Take us to the World Cup. The worst possible person,
Philip Truzier was a person thatthat the the federation brought
into the national team and he split us from the beginning,
locally based, international based players.
That's what he did. You think it it was a feeling
and by the way, for just so people can keep up 96 F Con,

(01:06:48):
which you won and be saving the Confederations Cup and you're
not touching on the 98 World Cup.
But in January, we lost in the final final of the F
combination. F con Yeah.
So perhaps let's start with the F Con 98 with Joe, you, I mean,
a lot of players were not part of of that of that team from
your 96 team. Yeah.

(01:07:11):
And going into that tournament, what were the expectations and
how would you sum up your experience in that in that
tournament to get all the way tothe final?
So, yeah, again, like you said, there's a few players, but
again, it's the players that were, you know, of age and were
moving on. So leading leading up to to to
qualifying for the World Cup, itwas our gaming in Togo where

(01:07:34):
Clive had to make the decision to get Toby was now getting
moved and he called some of the seniors players and he told us
what is happening. And that's what happened.
And it was natural. Whether it had to happen there
or then doesn't matter, but it happened.
So going 98 going to the to the Afghan having John was a coach.
There's other other players thatweren't there and changes

(01:07:56):
happening. So the expectations again,
probably was more of the expectations of of South
Africa's was OK. This I think a football person
would you realize it's a little bit harder outside your country
and to go and and let's see whatlet's see what they do a new
coach and let's see what they do.
And I think I think it's the past expectations what happened

(01:08:18):
because like you said, you had Joma brought in Rabutla Rabuto
was playing next to me where Lucas was playing in midfield.
Don't know why JAMA didn't put me in midfield Politico anyway,
I'm just kidding. But so there's changes that were
made and yeah, I think, I think we surpassed expectations.
Did you guys know how good a young Benny was at the time or

(01:08:41):
did you? Because most of us knew about
him from the tournament. So, yeah, so I think one or two
friendlies maybe that we played that saw Benny and in train, in
training, I could see the the ability of Benny and of the
young players coming in. So that was exciting.

(01:09:03):
But again, it was it was a procession that needed to
happen. So and then I forget Brian
Balloy, you had to make a choice.
This goalkeeper or that goalkeeper, you're taking a
goalkeeper that's on form and you coming through.
So there's a lot of good things.I think at the time how DOMA
handled it was he called the senior players in to say, this

(01:09:25):
is what's happening, this is howwe, what do we think?
And and he actually did what he said he would do.
So and this is what happened. So Brian made his name in that
tournament and he did phenomenally well.
And so a lot of good things and new changes had to happen.
And it's so that was still the peak.
We were still there winning the AFCON the two years before and
coming second. It's still that's we balance, we

(01:09:47):
we're fine. And Needless to say, and then
now from there, which is what's 5 months later, we are moving
against the company. Some of us fans always get the
feeling that and for me, I always take it back to 98.
See, then there's a recurring theme.
It's like as soon as we get to acertain level, we feel that we
need to go European. We didn't get Philip to here,

(01:10:10):
you know, just to get back to what you had already touched on
slightly, What was it about him that you know, that just didn't
work out for you guys at the 98 World Cup?
And do you think you probably could have done better if you
had a Jomo, even a Clive? So just like I said, the the
disparity of you, OK, you are you we all playing football

(01:10:34):
final, but you play locally and you play internationally.
So it just separated us like that.
So there was no, no respect for the actual players that were in
the squad. So it just made it difficult and
I, I don't, I, I didn't. So Lucas was the captain, I was
the vice captain, but I, you know, for, for him to do that to

(01:10:55):
the team, you were already causing trouble.
And unfortunately, you know, we just didn't.
So our first game, obviously people that were around watched
this. We lost to France 3,000,000
opening game and we we had a a we got back to where we were
staying Vichy and he said that we are allowed to go out and

(01:11:16):
just relax, get and do our thing.
And not many people know this, but so we were allowed to go
out. And I remember I was sitting
with my late late for lemon and chipper and Piazza and someone
else and we were meant to be back at the hotels.

(01:11:37):
Just make it 1:00 in the morning, the time difference,
whatever, we're allowed to go out.
And we looked at each other and said are we?
And Needless to say, we didn't. We didn't go back.
You went past the curfew. We went past the curfew and
Needless to say, where we went, if there's a 25 man squad,

(01:12:01):
there's 21 of us there, yeah. So things sort of picked
themselves players and unfortunately the next morning
we we had to go and sit down andhe was disappointed and he
wanted to he walked out on the team.
He said no, he's giving up in the we, we, we are and need to
say I was quite I was happy thatbecause I just even though we

(01:12:25):
had maybe a little bit of an inexperienced coach at the time,
which was trot, it would have been better.
And it's just the, the yeah. Anyway, so things were he walked
out and needs to say we, Lucas. Lucas sorted it out and he came
back. And then we went to a training

(01:12:46):
session where you had, it's likebeing, it's been like being 10
years old where he's taking the training session, but he's
whispering in Trotsky to talk tous as players, this telling Trot
what to say to us. So it was lost.
It was last day, it was last. It was there was the connection
lost before. And yeah, it was it was a

(01:13:10):
difficult time, Difficult time for players because when I said
players, we had a good enough team to I think to get out of
the group. But as you mentioned it, I
probably it would have been better having either Joma or or
or Clive and I. Mean the results.
Where do you think maybe you guys could have done better?
I mean losing to France, then wewent on to become champions?

(01:13:31):
Probably not. So Denmark.
Denmark won one, the worst result.
I mean, they went on to lose to Brazil or a very good team with
the Loudrobe brothers and that. Do you think maybe that Saudi
Arabia game where we drew 22, that's where we could have done
better? If we it was that, then we could
have maybe gone through. Yeah.
So, but yeah, yeah, it's just one of those things.

(01:13:51):
I think it's I just think more was happening off the field than
on the field at that World Cup, unfortunately.
And you know, fortunately we we had a procession plan and which
was the guys went on to qualify for the next World Cup and
that's what we did. So football in South Africa was
still where it where it needed to be, not not only South
Africa, but on the on the continent because we went then

(01:14:13):
to from 98 to after the World Cup, we went 2000 to Nigeria,
Ghana and you know there we camethird.
So it was first, second, third in a process, and slowly.
Was that your last tournament? Tournament for South Africa,
Yeah. You know, my favorite Buffana
game of all time was actually inthat tournament.
It was just something. Remember you guys played Ghana

(01:14:34):
and you beat them one, No. So I do, of course I do.
And then it's a. It's a a, it's a fond memory
because it's no better feeling as a, as a playing for your
country and going to the host nation and beat them in their
own backyard. And we did that.
And, and we, if you remember, wewent down to 10 men and, and

(01:14:57):
spoke to Lucas. I said, Lucas, let's play 4 at
the back. Let's play this formation.
And we, we held out and Needlessto say, we, we, we, our big loss
for that semi final was Eric Tinker.
That had Eric Tinker because it made a big difference to us in
the way we played and the way we, we set out to play.
And we were always on the back foot against Nigeria and strong

(01:15:19):
Nigerian team. That, that, that had a lot to
prove because of they're playingAfrica, South Africa in a in a
couple of nations where they missed out in 96 because they
were, they weren't there and they certainly went out and
performed and, and unfortunatelythey beat us, but they weren't
able to go on to lift the trophyin, in their backyard.
So that's that was a fun, fond memory of that tournament was

(01:15:43):
the game against Ghana, because Ghana had some phenomenal
players and to be able to beat them in Ghana was a phenomenal
feat. And just to close the national
team chapter, as someone who played in the most successful
buffer team of all time, the other theme that comes up all
the time is a question of style of play.

(01:16:04):
A lot of people say, well, there's a South African style of
play. And when you ask them, well,
where is it, they usually refer back to your team right now.
And we see it as well with Sundowns.
Is the debate, is it always sustainable for them to play in
a certain way, you know, throughout each game that
they've no matter who they're playing against?
Can you tell us what was your guys style of play?

(01:16:27):
Is there South African style of play and did you guys play the
South African style and tell us what is it, how, how does it go?
So I think when you say style ofplay, it's, it's interesting
when you ask that question because I try and see what it is
now and what it was then. And when you say that style of
play, I'm, I'm probably going tosay when I look at our national

(01:16:49):
team, when we play, then I thinkit was just our style of play
was allowing individuals to playtheir football.
I'm going to say because we knewthat if you give the ball to
doctor, he's going to entertain and he's going to perform.
You give it to shoes, he's goingto do the same.
You give it to sees where he's going to use his ability to go
forward. So I think that is what we had.

(01:17:11):
We had individuals that were once the ball came to them and
then you had the John Maitis or the, the Eric Tinkler to make
the tackles and passed along diagonal balls from one side to
the next, the David Nyati just to do the same.
And then you had the, the strongindividuals like Lucas Cadaby
to, to mark any, any strike out of out of the game.
So I think the South African style then was and if you look

(01:17:33):
at the, the, the players before us, the Joe Masonos, the ace and
swingers, the the individual ability is the game allowed them
to showcase their talent. And I think that is what we what
we saw as our national team. And certainly are we moving in
that direction. When you say players allowed,

(01:17:55):
the game is just changing so much.
They're just saying you so much.And I think that is what we see
in the world is that. Yeah, you will.
You will see players individually do phenomenal
things, but do the team set up that you see more of those
players? Do they?
Maybe they do, maybe they don't.But yeah, I think that I think

(01:18:15):
that was the vast difference, sothat if you want to say South
African style of playing is thatthe way we played is okay, get
the ball, let's give it to Doctor Lynch.
In the special players. Let him do their thing and
whatever and get a season where get down the line crossing so
that the big phenomenon missing is there and head of the ball
back of the net and play for players to do that.

(01:18:35):
So I think that was what was probably our the style of play
you. Missed the 2002 World Cup?
Were you injured? Yeah, I was unfortunately in the
area. OK, Mark, that, I mean that
basically rounds up your international career.
And I mean I must say as a SouthAfrican, thank you so much to
you and the team for all the memories.

(01:18:56):
And you know, the fact that we still talk about that team to
this day just shows what you guys achieved.
If we take it back to the club football, you move from Pirates
and you move to Latio. I've got a few questions on
that. Firstly, how the Latio deal
happens and, but secondly, I mean, as a young man, I mean,

(01:19:17):
you're like, what 2122 at that time?
What does it, how does your lifechange?
I mean, you went for Pirates where you're earning 8000 Rand,
you're not playing and what was then the best league in the
world to see how does that change for you like on the field
of the field and you know just how your life changes overnight,
basically. Can you just take us through

(01:19:37):
that? So I was again fortunate because
of the the success of of Piratesin 95 and then as you mentioned
there the Afghan, there was interest during the Afghan of
teams wanting to for me to go and visit and have a look at
them. And after the tournament very
fortunate at the time that had the interest of Manchester

(01:20:01):
United and nature. The people represent me at the
time said no, we were under obligation to go see both clubs.
So we went fortunate to to watchMan United against Everton on a
Monday night. Where Kochalskas had moved from
Man United to Everton and he wasplaying there already and met
with Sir Alex Ferguson after thegame.

(01:20:22):
And they were quite, quite interested in me to to stay and
see how I would adapt to the waythey play and this and that.
And we just the agents at the time, people representing me at
the time said, no, we under obligation to, to go to Latsia
and went to Latsia. And yeah, yeah, it's, you know,
from a footballing point of view.
And man, you are just remembered.

(01:20:46):
You're as a as a 21 year old. You are people.
When I say people, the, the, the, the female species, we've
got to say it as these beautifulpeople in Italy.
Beautiful woman, beautiful woman, beautiful culture.
As you said, it's the best league in the world.

(01:21:07):
Yeah, it's certainly the best league in the world at the time.
And then for a defender, that's where you want to be.
The Italians were known for their defensive way of playing.
So yeah, just find myself not too long, within a day saying,
OK, we'll do next minute. I'm doing my medical and never
said no to United, just said no obligation to go there and find

(01:21:29):
myself. I'm planning for for Latio,
which was a dream come true because you're playing in Syria,
as you mentioned, and I'll be playing against The Who my I'll
be playing against AC Milan, where my favorite, who was my
favorite team with the the 33 Hollanders that played for
Rutulert and Van Basten. So I, I was looking forward to
playing against, you know, AC Milan at the Saint Sierra.

(01:21:51):
So I, I signed and that was my next step.
And let's see where we go from there.
And what was tell us about a young, because he's one of my
favorite defenders, I think one of the greatest of all time, a
young Alessandro Nestor, becauseyou're with him at that time,
did you, was he special already then?
Was it very clear that he's going to become like an all time
great? So my, my experience of

(01:22:14):
Alessandro was that I, I got there as a new signing and he
had just come back from the, I think the under 20, the European
Cup, I think, so under 20. And so he was a youngster
himself. And I started my, my theory, our
career, I started with him. And if it wasn't him and it was

(01:22:35):
me, him and Shamat, which was Argentinian.
And then Zedek Zemmer was the coach that signed me and sort of
2-3 months into the season the results weren't going the way
they wanted to because there wasexpectation of this team and I
had a game where European 11 against the African 11.

(01:23:00):
We were playing in Lisbon and that during that week, so it was
the Sunday that I left, we played on the Wednesday and
during that week. They fired Zedek Salmon last
year and they appointed the the Dino's office as the chairman of
the club, wanted him to be the coach.
And during that week that I was gone, he made a couple of

(01:23:21):
changes. And so by the time I came back
from playing that match, that one or two changes were made and
he had tried a a different central defensive partnership.
And unfortunately that partnership just grew and did as
well as it possibly could. And so my second-half of of the

(01:23:41):
season at last year was sort of substitute or wanted to start,
but it wasn't what I wanted it to happen.
So it was, it was a, a differentexperience, but it grew me as a
person, having gone to a country, different language,
different culture of football, going from where pirates where I

(01:24:05):
was maybe training three times aweek to training every single
day and most days training twicea day.
So it was, it was a unique experience, a big jump for me,
but I didn't, as I said, the, the, the I didn't go as planned,
but it was, it was unique and different and I learned a lot as
an individual, but myself and about the football world.

(01:24:28):
And yeah, I grew, grew as a person.
And so with the the people that I played with, the players, my
roommate was Marco Gianni, the goalkeeper.
He was my roommate because he spoke a little bit more English
than anyone else. But you know, I played with some
unbelievable players and individuals that in that short

(01:24:50):
space of time, which, which is always the fascinating thing of,
of football is that footballers,we, we stand together and no
matter where you're from, they, they players will make you feel
at home. And it's, it's a difficult
situation as well because no matter where you go, people
don't understand. Oh, you do understand or you do
know, But if I'm going to a new club, I am going there as a as a

(01:25:12):
player, as a person, and I am probably going to take my, my,
my teammate's friend's position.So to build that and to to
change and for people to welcomeyou, it was it was a new unique
experience. So again, I was of course
there's you. You can't all be best friends.
That's never going to happen. But you are there and everyone

(01:25:33):
has a common goal. So you know, the the likes of
Kazuragi that made me feel at home, Senori, the the, the
captain, Michael, Johnny, as I said, and Nestor, a whole lot of
them. And then Pavel Nedvid was Nedvid
was the new player that just arrived.
Yeah, yeah, just arrived as wellfrom the Euro.
So it was a fantastic team of fantastic players that I was

(01:25:54):
playing with. So very, very fortunate to have
had that experience even though it was short at at Latio.
But I learned a lot as as well. Learned a lot of becoming a
defender and also being a professional footballer because
as I said, you're jumping from 23 * a week and playing a game
on the weekend to training twicea day and playing football in in

(01:26:17):
which is probably the best and toughest league in the world.
And one of some of the things you learn as a player, like
maybe bad habits that you had locally that you sort of Polish
that side and having moved to Europe, how did your game, No.
No. So just being a professional, I
think just being a professional and being you, you you have to
be more compass mantis and respecting your teammates and

(01:26:39):
respecting your job as it is, you know, and you know, at last
year, even our home games, we can't.
So you just take a complete one 83160° turn of being a
professional. You know, I'd probably say not
at Pirates so much, but at Cosmos you, Cosmos you, you
could get away with having a drink the night before and you

(01:27:01):
can still perform Pirates You maybe the the first.
I wouldn't even say you wouldn'teven try that at pirates, but
you could do certain things thatonce you went, once the window
was seized to flag in Italy, there's certain things you just
don't do. You're not going to get away
with it. It's more professional.
It's more everything. It has more expectations of you
as an individual. So I think the biggest change
was OK, yeah, now, so I need to do more to to be able to, to be

(01:27:27):
in the starting level and to prove more to to those around
me. So that's a that's a big jump.
It was a but it was a jump that was needed.
And yeah. And then you move to England,
you move to Bolton Wanderers. Why Bolton?
And how did that move come about?
South Bolton Wanderers was we InThat same year we played

(01:27:48):
friendly against England at Old Trafford, South Africa.
The Ian Wright handball. Right handball and we played
yeah friendly against them thereand we used to say one of
another good performance by our national team and under Clive
Parker and that and the the coach from Bolton, Colin Todd
had watched me play there. And you know, once the the

(01:28:10):
opportunity came for for for them to once they got promoted
for them back into the English Premier League for them to have
a chance to talk to me. They my I in the interim, I had
had found out that my people representing me, an individual
was stealing money from me. So I called a friend of mine and
I asked him to get me a new agent.

(01:28:32):
And luckily he knew the person, Gary Bloomberg, that was
representing Lucas at the time. So Gary came and met me in
Italy, in Rome, and he was part of the person to recoup a lot,
recoup a lot of money that was taken from me in the move to
Bolton. And yeah, found myself a lot of
things changing as as well at Latio.

(01:28:53):
So Latio, they brought in a new coach, the late spending, Goran
Erickson, which was coming from Santoria, so he was bringing his
own players as well. And needed to say before I went
to Bolton, I was very fortunate to have a preseason of two weeks
with Bologna and I trained at Bologna with the the great

(01:29:14):
Roberto Badger. Roberto Badger.
So I have pictures fond memory of playing in the in the in the
mountains with Bologna on on preseason trip and one of the best
experiences I had as individualsthat again my Italian was very
limited. I could understand a bit, but

(01:29:34):
the speaking was very limited because Needless to say that the
person that was my chaperone when we were given a a tutor
from the club at Lacio, the tutor was too too beautiful for
us to learn any Italian. So I've traded the chairman and
told him to to the the the team manager, sorry and told him
we're not learning any Italian. Just take her away.
I didn't say take away like that.

(01:29:55):
But so again, when I was at Bologna for the pre season, the
goalkeeper again was spoke a little bit more English and
Needless to say, there was a knock on our door like whatever
time of the night. And the guy who was saying no,
Roberto was calling me and the goalkeeper.
So me and him. And then at the time there was a

(01:30:17):
a few, there was a Russian and aSwede that was playing for
Bologna, Kenneth Anderson and the Russian.
But anyway, I remember his face.I can picture it.
Next one, I think it was about six of us.
We were downstairs in the basement having a cigar and
having a whiskey was the great Rupert.
So that was my experience of my pre season training at.

(01:30:41):
Bologna. Bologna and X-Men find myself on
the way to Manchester to signingfor Bolton Wanderers in the
English Premier League at the time.
When you go to Bolton, you obviously come there as like one
of the key signings and all of that.
You got relegated. Was it in your first season that
you got relegated? It was the first so the first

(01:31:01):
season we got relegated again. I relegated on a on on goal
difference the final match. But yeah, it was a where goal
line technology was needed then and we I think it was a goal we
scored against Everton with withdraw, but we would have won.
But yeah, it was interesting theinteresting time again,
certainly relegated against, butI wouldn't say nearly against

(01:31:24):
expectations. But you know, I I was still at
the time with Bolton was we had the club versus country issue.
So the the whole of the January I was away beginner faster.
And then when I came back the the the club coach at the time

(01:31:45):
was sometimes reluctant to play me when I played had played for
my country. So club versus country also was
an issue. It was a big issue at the time
which that you know, unfortunately them as the club
knew that, but only later thingsthat things had changed.
So yeah, it was, it was very disappointing being relegated
again. But also I, I didn't take it

(01:32:08):
that how can I say that? Is that a big disappointment?
Because the, my next biggest thing was the World Cup.
I was going off to the World Cup, you know, being relegated
from the English Premier League.So it was a it was a
disappointment, but the highs are going to the World Cup sort
of surpassed it. But then knowing that I'm going
back to to Bolton after the World Cup was was a bit of an

(01:32:30):
eye opener. You have because you stayed with
Bolton, you went down to the Championship with them.
Did you have offers from other Premier League teams or top
division teams in other countries?
So, so the not the first second season there was one or two
German teams. For whatever reason, that never
really happened. But you know, I stayed with
well, stayed with Bolton. And then the first season was we

(01:32:53):
had a phenomenal season because we got to the playoff final.
Yes, we got back there, but unfortunately we lost to Watford
in the final. The the second year we lost in
the semi finals to to Ipswich, which is a very peculiar game.
I think it was like A-76 score or something.
But then end of that season I, Ithen had the interest of

(01:33:15):
Charlton and I went down during the summer.
I went and did a medical, Needless to say, came back and
sort of failed the medical because there's something wrong
with my knee. But they were still very
interested and they just said that they will keep an eye on me
going into the the third season.And I think it was sometime

(01:33:37):
around after three or four, fivegames, not sure how many I had
really had one or two issues with Sam and I dice the coach,
he wanted me to sign a new contract and certain things were
happening off the field that wasn't really good.
So I was we were playing Birmingham.

(01:34:00):
And I think when the 75th minuteat in at Birmingham, he took me
off. And then that Sunday, that
night, I actually got the call from Charlton because they
obviously were happy with my fitness and whatever was
happening. And, you know, I went down to to

(01:34:21):
join him on the Sunday. No.
Was it the Sunday, Monday. But yeah, unfortunately the
fallout I had with Aladas was hedidn't allow me into the
training ground to say goodbye to my teammates.
So but, and Needless to say, a year or two, however long later,

(01:34:41):
we played Bolton and at at the Valley and sort of made peace
about it. But yeah, sometimes we do.
We do things that are not, not for the moment and
unfortunately. But what was the problem?
I mean with with you and Big Sam?
Was it purely because maybe feltbetrayed that you wanted to
leave? So, so my eventually when we

(01:35:03):
played Bolton, when they were back in the Premier League, I
went to it was myself, Klaus Jensen, we were also from Bolton
and and Andy Todd was also from Bolton and we went back to
Bolton to play against Bolton. And when I went out onto the the
field at the Reebok, the fans started singing.

(01:35:27):
There's only one greedy bastard,one greedy bastard.
So Allardice had made it like I left because of money.
Needless to say, the obvious wasthey were in the Championship
with the both soldier in the Premier League.
So you are going to get more money, whichever it was.
But you know, Needless to say, leading up to that check, you
know, Allardice wanted me to sign a contract in the middle of

(01:35:48):
the field in front of the fans. And you know, my agents said
that it's not happening and it was just some things that were
happening that shouldn't have been happening.
So so they sang that and then weplayed.
We played three at the back. So I was on the right hand side,
which was the end where the morenotorious hardcore Bolton fans

(01:36:09):
were in the ball went out and asyou do as a South African, you
just stir a little bit more. And they were singing in my ear
and I picked up the ball and I kissed the Jolson badge, which
is do not do the ridiculous thing.
So I did that just to spur them on.
And we went on to win one law and neither.
So that was so yeah, that was itwas just we've we've fell out of

(01:36:34):
I don't want to read the stays and carry on and I didn't and I
moved on to wanting to play in the Premiership.
So anyway, all was forgiven and so we move on.
Then your time at Charlton, and I mean, I told you of a when
you, when you and Bartlett played for Charlton, Charlton
became like my second team because you know, I would watch
you guys every week. I mean, you got to, you did very

(01:36:56):
well there. There was a season where you
actually almost made the Champions League.
You were like 4th going into like the last few months of the
season. What was it about the Charlton
team that just got you guys, youknow, to exceed all expectations
and just do so well? So Charlton is a nice community
club, family club. When I say, you know, there's
the difference of playing football maybe in, in, in South

(01:37:19):
Africa and then playing it in Europe, where you, the people
that are supporting the club there, the great, great
grandparents and they play in the same area playing they're
just walking distance. And, and so does, you know, a
club also one of the club that was just being promoted and
bringing new players from different clubs in.
So it was a part of a, a, a new change for the club and

(01:37:43):
expectations, meaning, you know,the first season, I just want to
stay up and then each year try and do better and better.
And, you know, fortunately that's what we did.
We had a, a coach that was an explayer.
So sometimes when you have that,I think he, he, it was a, all of
them were ex players. He's technical staff.

(01:38:03):
And so they just brought a good,a good feel around the, the, the
training ground and expectation going into the, the, the, you
know, the, wherever we went to go play different, different
clubs. And it was just at the time
being back in the Premiership, it was just a nice time for, for
Charlton. And now obviously you look at

(01:38:25):
it, it's the, the best time they've had being in the
Premiership. And let's hope they can re re re
redo that again. But it was, it was fun for me.
When I say fun, I was back in the English Premiership playing
against the best teams where it was Liverpool, Man United, where
it was at old Travert or at home.
We were, I was playing where I wanted to play.
And that was an exciting 5-6 years for me.

(01:38:48):
So it's it's an enjoy, yes, enjoyable time, yes, we people
always ask me, but you know, we had some fantastic results at
home, but you know that it will always stick out.
To me the best result was beating the That's Invincibles.
That Arsenal era of players beating them 4/2 at Highbury was

(01:39:11):
always a just. Careful, there's a few Arsenal
fans here. No, no, that's fine.
But but but to say to to be beenvery fortunate to experience
that, you know, Highbury is a compact field.
The fact that everyone feels like you're touching the players
and you know, they can be Arsenal fans and they can
understand the importance or theexperience that we had of

(01:39:33):
beating them at Highbury, which it was.
It's one of the fond memories. But again, it's a wide touch on
that way. Dude did I did I support a
teammate I grew up supporting? You know, you're making me admit
things that Man United as a as akid because of his seldom FA Cup

(01:39:53):
and when I went there became eventually became an Arsenal fan
because Arsene Wenger and he's. The French legion of players
played the best football and they certainly did.
And they and they used, they hadthe, the, the, the rivalry
against United and that. But you know, for me, Wenger and
the Arsenal players and then going out after games and

(01:40:14):
bumping into the players, you know, I just got on very well
with the, the, the players that played at Arsenal.
And I said just made it made it more enjoyable to, to see them
perform the way that, that, thatthey did.
So, yeah, it was, it was, it wassuch an enjoyable experience of,
of football, of life that, that I had down in London, South of

(01:40:35):
London SE and, and it was Charlton and the, the valley,
the fans, the, the, the, my teammates, Yeah.
And, and the, and the technical team.
So it was, it was just a good time, good time to be alive in
football. Would you like just casually go
to the club after the game and bump into like Tyrion Ree or any
of the Arsenal players? Is that you see when you.

(01:40:56):
But can we not say that casually?
Terry Henry was bumping into me.But yeah, of course you're not
casually, but, you know, obviously we're going to the
same place. Yeah.
You're bumping each other and you're greet each other and
that's what and and it's an African anything.
Sure, it's an African thing. So yeah, it was, it was fond
memories no matter where where you went.

(01:41:17):
It's I think you touched on it, you know, off air.
You was talking about English Premier League.
It was it was anyone that has played in it.
That is a life to be fortunate to have lived.
And when when I looked back, I was I'm grateful for it.
I experienced it, sometimes experienced it two things that I
shouldn't have experienced, but it was good experiences and you

(01:41:40):
know, just fortunate to have have been a part of, of, of
English football or a part of the the two clubs that I've
played Therefore are Baltimore Wanderers was very good club to
me, the fans. And then Charlton is exactly the
same experience. So it's always it always an avid
reminder of how what real football fans are are about

(01:42:01):
knowing the history of of their club and, and supporting the
club no matter what, no matter where which division they're
playing and where Myself and Shawn Bartle were invited back
now end of last year. And we saw the, the, the League
One and the, the, the support. And then now they've been
promoted to the champion back tothe championship.
So let's hope that they can get back to where we'd like to see

(01:42:22):
them and. Then just two more questions on
the English Premier League, right?
So you've spoken about the Valley, your home ground, which
was, you know, very good for youguys.
But in terms of our way grounds,you get your Enfield, Old
Trafford, Highbury at the time which away ground gave you like
the most chills like when you walked in.
So it felt special. Well, I think all of them.

(01:42:43):
I think all of them. It's a different feeling.
You know, obviously Old Traffordis Old Trafford.
Yeah, but Tyneside, Newcastle, Newcastle, Newcastle, the fans
are you. You don't get fans like that.
And certainly I am Everton, Liverpool, Liverpool for sure.
But Everton, why? I think because we normally got

(01:43:04):
good results because Everton. So I love, love going to Everton
to Merseyside. But I think anyway, you know,
even the Dowell in Southampton at the time, all, all the clubs,
it's a different experience because of the passion and
commitment of the fans, you know, and, and fans are English
football fans are unique. I mean the songs they sing, the

(01:43:25):
things that they say to you, it's, it's unique.
So, but it's a, that's why it's a, it's a, you're fortunate to
have experienced it as a player,no matter which club you played
for in the English Premier League.
And if there was front two, I mean back then front twos were
still normal that front 2. Still front news behind

(01:43:48):
whatever's. Tens 100%, Any striker in
particular or any front in particular that you found not
necessarily the base, but that you personally found the hardest
to play against and why? So the game was different then.
You didn't know that. So that's not, you know, Terry

(01:44:08):
Otree wasn't the front man. He was a wig and he drifting
white. But you've got to you've got to
look at then still the the what's the greatest goal scorer
in the English Premier League isAlan Shearer.
Alan Shearer was a goal scorer, which is a horrible player to
play as. You're Needless to say you're
nuts are going to be grabbed. Certain things are going to be

(01:44:30):
happen and that's what happens and all and then you so and then
you have players with pace. Michael Owen was just coming
into into the scene, Robbie Fowler, but and then you give
the guy by the name of Big Dunk Ferguson that played up front
for everything. He was horrible.
I mean, that's just you don't the ball is coming over from a
goal kicker and you're getting an elbow in your face and that's
what's happening. And this is how the game was

(01:44:51):
played. So there was physical battles
and then it was football battlesand then there was, but it was
exciting and it was no matter what you wanted to play against
those players, the best players,no matter what they brought to
the game or what challenges theybrought to you on the actual
day, it was, it was exciting. And again, I was very fortunate
to be be a part of that. And Mark, just before you leave

(01:45:13):
Charlton, because I think you leave in around 2005, you have
that incident where the story goes, you you're in your house,
you're listening to to you 2 andyou with your son.
Next thing you fall through a glass table and you have a
horrific injury. Take us through that.
So it was my 30th birthday. The day before was Charlton

(01:45:36):
against Middlesbrough. We very fortunate to to to be
the captain of the team. I Needless to say that I was
very humorous in my team talks to try and get humor into the my
team mates to make sure for themto realize that it's it's only
football. We give our best and if we get
the result, we get the result. That evening I had my 30th

(01:45:56):
birthday at my house. We jumping around doing whatever
like hooligans and the next morning we had a warm down so
you go to the stadium and we hada warm down and players that
didn't play, they do a little bit more.
The other players just the cool down stretch this and that.
Went out for lunch and that afternoon was watching Liverpool
against Newcastle and by the endof that match we were still 4th

(01:46:19):
as Charlton. We were in Chambers League
position. I was playing YouTube, his
music, dancing in my dining room, my lounge.
Sorry was my my son. He said he's tired.
I put him down and when I once Iturned around, my knee had
knocked the dining room table and he's to say I fell backwards
onto the vase that was on the table.

(01:46:40):
And the immediate the, the, the moment of being joyous and where
we are as a team to I obviously I was part of it, but I don't, I
don't remember it because of theexperience, what was happening.
It was life threatening. I lost 8 pints of blood.
The it's called an ambulance andyou know, next minute finding

(01:47:00):
myself as, as you said, being joyous to be to being in, in
hospital then using 8 pints of blood, you only have 8 pints of
blood. So, yeah, it was a it was a
scary moment for, for not only for me as a person, but for for
my children that we're around to, to see that happen.
So how short life is and things that we do.

(01:47:23):
And but yeah, I was very fortunate to to recover from
that. Again, I think we touched that,
that I ever fully recover from it.
Who knows. But yeah, it was something that
I am. I'm grateful that I was able to
to live through it. Very fortunate to to we had a
close friend that was a trainingnurse that was that knew what to

(01:47:44):
do through the when the incidenthappened.
So again, I'm very grateful to have gone through it.
And it was very situation where I had 72 stitches under my arm
and the doctor said I was very fortunate that I was fit enough
that I didn't I didn't lose my arm and puncture my lung.

(01:48:05):
So yeah, it was something that happened.
And Needless to say, some stories that came out were not
the truth. But that certainly was something
that unfortunately led to me having to make a choice of
either having a blood transfusion or waiting patiently
to recover or getting an injection.

(01:48:25):
And I likely had the permission of the the British drug Board to
get 2 injections apostrophe, which was into into my
bloodstream to get my red blood,red blood cells to produce
quicker. I got back playing football, but
with a was fully back to normal.Who knows?
But yeah, because I thought we had to.
That was to tell you the story. Sure, you didn't leave Charlton,

(01:48:46):
you go to Ipswich, but there wasa very short spell, just very
briefly. No, Ipswich was that was coming
back from back to fitness. They sent me out online to to
get my fitness back and see if I'd ever recover properly.
And the Ipswich Joe Royal, the great Joe Royal was the coach,

(01:49:09):
played against the played for Ipswich against Park Rangers at
Loftus Rd. and he was to say that that was my last 45 minutes
as a professional footballer. I realized in during that game
that my mind could do things, but my body could.
He just couldn't do it. I.
Couldn't turn and one of my things that I could do is run

(01:49:32):
fast and be able to turn and I couldn't do that.
So at half time we looked at each other and he said he's
going to replace me. And I knew that was the end of
my my professional football, howI wanted to play it.
And unfortunately or fortunatelythat was the decision made then.
So Ipswich was very, very brief,but it was AI remember it like

(01:49:53):
it was yesterday because of the respect that Gerald showed me
and you know, I accepted them. My, my, my fate as a
professional footballer. Yeah.
And then I think you did you tryto play briefly at Cosmos or?
So I came back, said to Joma, let me come and join, let me
help you with your defenders. But next, when I was training a

(01:50:13):
little bit and but I trained, I trained with the team, but
never, never played a match. I never played a match.
And Mark, I mean, we've covered your entire career and I mean
what a career it was and just that transition.
I mean, we always hear about it,people different players
experience it differently. But how difficult did you find
this transition from being a footballer to suddenly having to

(01:50:34):
create a new life without the the football and and all that
comes with it? So I think that the, the, the
challenge, I think it's I wantedto get away from football as
much as I could because of how Isaw football and, and, and
things, but I stayed in it. Our, you know, the natural

(01:50:57):
progression was to go into probably when, if you're not
going to be a coach, then you, you talk about football.
So then I did and I still remained in it for a, for a bit.
But yeah, probably just my lifestyle, the things that I
did, the choices I made wasn't always the best for me and, and
best for, for what I, for what Ineeded to do.

(01:51:19):
And, you know, unfortunately found myself doing everything
possible outside football. But that's just the decision I
made wrong choices, wrong, wrongtime in life and found myself
doing things or being part of a a story that I didn't want to be
part of and I was part of it. And, you know, busy at the
moment me, I am, I am rebuildingmy life in a better way.

(01:51:43):
I might say, well, I am only 51 and still young and but I'm
fortunate to be able to say to myself that, you know, I when
just talking to you about my football career, I was very
fortunate. I had fabulous time doing
everything I possibly could do on the field, off the field,
whether it was right, whether itwas wrong, I did it.

(01:52:06):
And now I'm just trying to do the what's best for me as a
person and and for those that are dearest to me.
So choices, we all make choices.We always, we all do things that
at the end of the day, we probably regret.
But I really, I'm disappointed at the choices, a lot of choices
I've made, but I don't regret anything because I've done it.

(01:52:26):
I've been there, I've experienced it and we are part
of the story that we tell. And hopefully we can tell a
different story. So many things that we don't
share because we no need to, ButI'm grateful for, for, for, for
you and you know, for, for you asking the questions you did.
Because when I look at my careerand, and playing football, I had

(01:52:49):
a unbelievable time as a youngster growing up playing
football through the different changes of things that were
happening in South Africa, to bepart of the changes in South
Africa and to still be South African.
I'm proud to be a South African.So I'm very fortunate for my
life as a footballer. And I always remind to the club
that you played for Katie Shepherds.

(01:53:11):
It taught me a lot as a as a footballer, but it gave me more,
even more as a person. So thank you once again for for
allowing me to talk a little bitabout my, my, the moments that I
had as a footballer. Thanks, Mark.
And then just going to close offand very quickly I give you 2
centre backs. Just pick one.
I'm going to start international.

(01:53:32):
Start with the guy you played with, Nestor Okanavaro.
Oh, we go through Q&A. Yeah.
Yeah, just quick one. It's better beta sentiment.
Nestor Okanavaro I'm. Going to go, Nestor goes.
I played with him. Nesta Yapster.
Oh, I know you're trying anything.
I'm still going to go Nesta. Nesta, Marcel Desai.

(01:53:53):
Oh myself, Desai was a good midfielder.
We're not sure I'm going to. I like myself as a midfielder
shows. But the center back you're
going. To go, Nesta, I'm still going to
go. Yeah, let's screw our show, OK?
What you're going Nesta? Yeah, we'll go Nesta.
Nesta, John Terry. Nesta.
Misterio, Ferdinand. Mr. Nestor Virgil Vandak.

(01:54:17):
So Lester, when you go further back, Mr. Berezi, come on.
There we go for my touch. OK, That's why sign up.
But fair enough. All right, local Neil.
And I know you also played in midfield, but as a defender,
Neil Tovey? Steve Compeller?
Sure, I didn't play. I didn't have the opportunity to

(01:54:37):
play too much with Steve, but Steve was a strong defender.
I'm probably going to say Neil because I didn't know with him I
can play more with Neil and I didn't have the chance to.
I saw Steve play but and then that was all becoming him coming
to the end of career and you probably in the changing would
have done something teacher liketo to put me off.
So I'm going to go Neil Tovey. OK, Neil Tovey, Gavin Lane.

(01:55:04):
Gavin Lane, come on, this is thebuck in here.
We won the league, we won the league, we won the African
Champions League and an absolutewarrior on the field and an
absolute warrior off the field. So Gavin Lane.
Gavin Lane. William Jackson.
Like Gavin Lane? Gavin Lane, OJ Mobiseler.

(01:55:29):
So OJ very talented, but he also, again, when I came back
and played Little Stand for the national team, he was playing in
midfield, yeah, so I didn't playwith him.
So Gavin Lane. And finally, Gavin Lane Lucas.
So do 2 totally different players.
Certainly a warrior, but yeah, yeah, I'm always going to go

(01:55:52):
because the Chief show led by example and did certain things.
Two totally different players. When I say totally different
players, I'm going to say club level, I'll still go.
Gavin Lane International of national level.
I'm going to go obviously, Lucas.
All right, Mark, thank you so much and we hope you will in

(01:56:13):
future you'll become a friend ofthe show.
We can do some things with you going forward, but thank you so
much for your time. It really means a lot to us.
Thank you very much and thank you for allowing me to share a
bit of my experience with you guys and wishing you guys all
the behind the scenes. I've got all your names already.
That's why luckily but all behind the scenes that are

(01:56:34):
sometimes the the more importantpeople into putting this show
the making it a success of the Apex Playbook podcast may
continue and grow bigger and bigger.
Thank you so much.

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Mark Fish: A South African Football Odyssey

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