August 24, 2025 • 44 mins
What does it feel like to watch democracy crumble in real time? In this raw, deeply personal conversation that marks the (maybe) final episode of Deep Dive, host Shawn C. Fettig and political scientist Dr. Sara Benesh confront the terrifying reality of America's democratic collapse and our collective failure to respond.
After three and a half years of weekly episodes, Fettig explains his decision to step back from punditry about how bad things are and pivot toward developing content focused on effective resistance strategies. This shift comes from a growing recognition that simply documenting democracy's decline isn't enough—we need functional approaches to countering authoritarianism.
The conversation takes an unexpectedly intimate turn as both participants share their struggles to reconcile everyday life with the knowledge of ongoing atrocities. "I'm taking on this new job, figuring out where my son will go to college... and I'm like, but Gaza is starving. What does any of this stuff matter?" This cognitive dissonance mirrors what many Americans feel as they continue normal routines while democracy erodes around them.
Drawing powerful parallels to Nazi Germany, they explore memoirs of Germans who rationalized continuing ordinary life during Hitler's rise. The most chilling insight: "Those who were pessimistic survived because they saw what was coming and took active measures... those who were optimistic died." Are we making the same mistakes?
The discussion reveals the paralyzing collective action problem at democracy's heart—those least directly affected by authoritarianism must lead resistance efforts, yet they're precisely the ones with the most comfort to lose. Our commodified, distraction-filled lives make mobilization nearly impossible.
Rather than ending in despair, Fettig and Benesh suggest a new path forward: looking not just to failed democracies for lessons, but to successful resistance movements throughout history, including America's founding generation who overthrew tyranny and built something new. The question remains: will enough of us recognize this historical moment before it's too late?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Benesh (00:00):
I just I don't even know how to wrap my mind around
it and I don't know how peoplecan go about their day when
that's happening.
Again, like I, you know, I feelyou when you're like you know
it is, it's ridiculous.
Like I'm you know I'm taking onthis new job, I'm worrying
about all this paperwork,whatever I'm you know figuring
out with Finn like where he'sgoing to go to college and just
(00:22):
move Molly into a new apartmentand she's got her first real job
, and like all these things, andI'm like, but like Gaza is
starving.
Shawn (00:31):
Literally.
Dr. Benesh (00:32):
Like.
What am I like?
What does any of this stuffmatter if we can't even do
anything to make our stupidpresident?
Send food to starving people.
Send food to starving people.
Shawn (00:49):
Welcome to Deep Dive with me, Shawn C Fettig.
So I've just released the lastepisode of my limited series
Leaving America for Americansthat are considering leaving the
States, what options areavailable, how to obtain a visa,
residency or even citizenshipin another country, and all the
things to consider and preparefor, including immigration
(01:18):
processes and taxes.
This week, I'm returning toDeep Dive for one potentially
final episode.
Like most of you, I'm sure, inthis current political
environment in which we aretruly experiencing ascendant
authoritarianism, I have foundmyself getting caught up in the
daily disaster, spending much ofmy time digesting the news,
jumping down rabbit holes,scaring my friends and family
(01:39):
about these end times andexpending all of my energy on
every horrible thing coming outof the White House and the GOP.
And while I think having aknowledge of and being disgusted
by what is happening in thiscountry is important, I've found
that it's pulled me away fromthe things I'm really interested
in, which is thinking about andengaging in activities and
(02:02):
actions that can effectivelycounter this authoritarianism in
the United States.
I need to recalibrate how Iconsume and process this stuff
so that it's not just souldestroying but motivating.
So to do that, I've decided topull back from Deep Dive, the
weekly shows I've been producingfor the past three and a half
years.
This may be a hiatus for DeepDive or it may be permanent.
(02:26):
In the meantime, I am workingon some limited series projects
that I think are better suitedto how I'm feeling and thinking
these days and hopefully will beof more value to you, the
listener, than punditry andhorror porn would be focusing on
effective strategies to counterautocracy, oligarchy and
authoritarianism, as well aswhat we or our children or our
(02:50):
grandchildren are going to betasked with rebuilding an
American democracy.
So I'm not disappearing forgood.
I'm just taking some time awayand we'll be back eventually
with some stuff that I hope willcontribute to a stronger and
better Democratic Americanfuture.
Today, my guest is Deep Dive'sfirst guest ever and now last
(03:13):
friend of the pod and mypersonal friend, dr Sara Benesh,
professor of political science,director of curriculum and
governance, secretary of theCollege at the University of
Wisconsin-Milwaukee.
We discuss how the country haschanged since Deep Dive launched
the state of the country now,how to process what's happening
(03:34):
and maybe some baby steps towardeffective resistance to an
authoritarian state.
All right, if you like thisepisode or any episode, and
despite the fact that Deep Divewon't be releasing anything in
the near future.
As I said, I am working on someother projects, so like, share
and follow Deep Dive with Shawnon your favorite podcast
platform and or subscribe to thepodcast on YouTube to stay
(03:57):
updated on developments.
And, as always, if you have anythoughts, questions or comments
, feel free to email me atdeepdivewithshawn at gmailcom.
Let's do a deep dive, dr Benesh.
(04:18):
Thanks for being here.
How are you?
Dr. Benesh (04:20):
You know I'm exhausted.
How are you?
Shawn (04:25):
Yeah, I'm probably the same.
I wonder why.
Dr. Benesh (04:29):
Oh, I don't know.
Shawn (04:32):
This is the first time I think we've actually chatted
outside of like text and emailsince the election right.
Dr. Benesh (04:39):
Probably.
Yeah, I haven't been on yourshow for a while.
Shawn (04:43):
No, there's not, much has changed.
Dr. Benesh (04:46):
Yeah.
Shawn (04:47):
So this is it, though I'm closing up shop.
Dr. Benesh (04:50):
Yeah, what made you decide to do that?
Shawn (04:54):
There's a handful of reasons.
We have always talked aboutmoving back to New Zealand and
we've thought about maybe movingthat timeline up.
Why?
Yeah we can get to that.
Dr. Benesh (05:05):
Whatever for?
Shawn (05:08):
But we're going back to New Zealand for a month this
December and you know we'regoing to start kind of actively
working towards that, and so Iwas thinking of maybe pivoting
and focusing on that, becauseit's not easy to make an
international move for anyonethat's ever done it, but also I
don't know.
I guess, primarily given wherethe country is today and the
discourse surrounding it, Ithink that the types of guests
(05:29):
that I've had on Deep Dive andcould have moving forward on
Deep Dive are really the samepeople or pundits, or activists
or researchers that are on abunch of podcasts and TV shows.
So by being on Deep Divethey're just, I think, offering
some of the same thing that canbe found on other platforms and
outlets.
I mean, there's no shade here.
But because I think there's aplace for this, for punditry,
(05:52):
for talking about the state of,you know, the world and the
country, I think that'simportant, there's a value to it
.
But I think I'm ready to moveaway from punditry about how bad
things are and maybe starttalking about what actually
could be done to counter therise of what I think is
authoritarianism in the UnitedStates, and it's just not part
of the conversation right now.
I think this moment is kind ofrevealing a glaring absence in
(06:15):
the maybe research or maybejournalism or something.
It's very easy, I think, to saythat we need things We've talked
about this, like bipartisanship, but that's not going to happen
right now or that we need whatelse we talked about this, like
bipartisanship, but that's notgoing to happen right now or
that we need what else.
Have we talked aboutRecommitting to norms and
institutions, but that's notgoing to happen.
So I think we need, you know,this moment really calls for
somebody or some people to tellus what can functionally be done
(06:36):
to save democracy, and I don'tthink that's really what's
happening right now.
I think we're all floundering,but when that narrative forms,
when we start to speak in thoseterms, I think I'd be happy to
be part of that conversation.
But right now I just don't seehow Deep Dive is offering
anything that stands out fromthe rest of the pack.
So and I'm not absolving myselfof responsibility here, I'm not
saying that I'm taking apassive role in this, or I
(06:57):
should take one I just trulydon't know what to do.
Dr. Benesh (07:05):
Yeah, I mean I think what you offered that other
podcasts don't always offer isan opportunity to really dive
into the research much morefully.
You know, I mean I don't reallycall what you've been doing
punditry.
I think it's, you know, farmore thoughtful than that.
Punditry is easy and that's youknow.
I mean I spend most of the time.
So my husband always has CNN on.
(07:26):
He's a news junkie and I spendhalf my time walking through the
living room looking at whathe's listening to and going, oh,
it's so obvious.
Or like, oh, come on, you knowthat that's only half the story.
Or you know, like just kind ofbeing annoyed with the pundits,
you know, because they makeeverything seem like it's so
(07:47):
simple and nothing's simple, andI feel like you at least
created space for that, you know, for people to talk about how
not simple things are, and Ithink that's something.
But I mean, where is, where arethese people?
Who are these people?
What area of work are thesepeople doing that are going to
(08:08):
give you what you're looking forin terms of a way forward, do
you think?
Shawn (08:13):
I don't know.
I know there's a literature onthis You're probably familiar
with some of it which is how tostop democratic backsliding or
how to overthrowauthoritarianism or resistance
movements that have worked inpast, and I think there's
something to be mined there andsomething that's important to
draw from that.
But I just don't think thatanything but you've talked to
(08:34):
some of those people, haven'tyou?
Yeah, but you know, and thisagain, there's no shade here,
but a lot of it is things thathave to be done before you've
turned a corner.
There's very little that saysonce you've turned the corner,
what can you do?
You know, like, once you knowHitler was chancellor and had
declared emergency powers andbecame a dictator, there was
very little that could be doneoutside of, dare I say it, I
(08:58):
guess like mass protest.
But there is research that sayspeaceful protest.
What is that?
We've talked about this rightthat at 3.5% of some type of
resistance or peaceful protestscan counter authoritarianism.
Dr. Benesh (09:13):
Right, but even that , I mean that's based on you
know what has happened in thepast and what works in other
countries, and are you familiarwith this Cliff Cash guy.
Shawn (09:24):
No.
Dr. Benesh (09:25):
He's like a comedian , but he's decided to just try
to go all in and try to try tostop this thing from happening.
And so he's out there, like youknow, protesting.
He's like focused on Fox News alot and he's, you know, trying
to coordinate like kind of acommunity organizer on the
(09:46):
ground.
But he keeps posting onFacebook like how frustrated he
is that people aren't engagingmore, Like why aren't more
people coming to protest?
Why aren't more people going toDC when Trump takes over the
city?
You know like why aren't morepeople?
And you know, I think that'swhere you know some of the
literature tells us where thesemovements can come from and how
(10:09):
they can work and all thosekinds of things, but that
literature doesn't know how lazyAmericans are.
Well, we're commodified.
Shawn (10:15):
I have a lot of friends that have told me recently and
we can talk about how I'mstarting to layer what happened
in Nazi Germany to what might behappening here.
But we are very commodified, we.
We can easily distractourselves with TV, with our
phones, for better or worse, andI guess there's an argument
about capitalism in heresomewhere.
But we have a pretty strongmiddle class in the United
(10:37):
States and none of us you and meincluded, I would assume want
to lose that.
And you know, I think we allknow, that to go protest
somewhere requires taking timeoff from our jobs, and I think
some people are lucky enough tobe able to do that and still get
paid, and some people wouldhave to give up their jobs to do
it.
Dr. Benesh (10:53):
But even the people that are lucky enough to do it
you know the fact the very factthat they're lucky enough to do
it suggests that they're notbeing so negatively impacted by
what's happening in theireveryday life that they feel the
need to put away whatever theiryou know their book or their
device, or their you knowvacation plans to go and do it.
Shawn (11:19):
It's a weird time to be living.
Frankly, I consider it somewhatinstructive.
If I could look at this onlyanthropologically but I live
with this I would say low levelof dread every day, but I think
it's getting to be a pretty highlevel of dread.
But this weird dynamic, whichis I'm not directly affected yet
I know people that are and Ifeel really weird.
(11:42):
I've had some conversationswith people about how weird it
is to go to work every day anddo our jobs and talk about
things that, in this largerpicture, just seem very
pointless and insignificant, andyet we are.
Dr. Benesh (11:53):
Right, because I think we assume it's going to be
okay.
And you know, back to yourpoint about Germans, you know, I
mean I think we all kind ofmake these assumptions about
(12:22):
what happened then.
And you know you're right.
I mean we've, we've talkedabout this Like we kind of as
business, and that's what we'reall doing.
Yeah it's not.
We're not saying it's OK andwe're not saying we're OK with
it, and I mean Trump's approval.
Ratings are terrible.
Ratings are terrible.
Shawn (12:41):
Yeah.
Dr. Benesh (12:42):
But we're not making the time to do anything about
it, and part of that.
Shawn (12:54):
I think, is this profound feeling of helplessness.
Yeah, that's what I'm startingto come to realize about what I
think must have been happeningin the early years of Nazi
Germany.
I've been reading this book.
I read this book called DefyingHitler by Sebastian Hafner.
He was a journalist writing inWeimar Germany and into the Nazi
era, but he writes about theend of World War I, that era up
through the fall of WeimarGermany and just what it was
(13:14):
like in civil society to watchthis kind of rise of Nazism and
how people responded.
But I'm also reading now thisother book called my German
Question, by Peter Gay.
And he was a young guy, I thinkhe was a teenager in the 1930s
in Berlin and his family werenon-religious Jews.
(13:35):
And he talks a lot about andthis is what's really resonating
with me about how his family,especially his father, they
could see what was happening buthis father kept doing this
thing where it's like, you know,we're non-practicing Jews, it's
not really affecting us thatmuch.
We're, you know, upper middleclass, we're doing well, you
know we can just keep our headsdown and stick through this.
(13:55):
And he talks about as a teenagerkind of growing up and learning
how to avoid some of the worstexcesses of the Nazi regime and
how to just focus on otherthings and stay apolitical, but
that over the years.
You know, it would have beeneasy in the early 30s for them
to leave, but they would havehad to give up their house,
their wealth, give up everythingand leave.
(14:16):
And they didn't know to whereand so they didn't.
And then, by the time they didleave, in the late 30s, they had
to give up everything.
They had to leave everythingbehind.
They had to rely on people tolike.
Dr. Benesh (14:30):
Essentially, use an underground railroad to get them
out and had to start over.
Shawn (14:32):
And you know, to me that's what I feel like is
happening is and I'm notadvocating, you know, I just did
Leaving America, I'm notadvocating that people should
consider leaving.
But there's this other maximthat came out of, I think,
poland where, like Polish Jews,there's a story associated with
this.
But the end is, those that werepessimistic survived because
they saw what was coming andthey took active measures to
(14:54):
avoid it, and those that wereoptimistic died because they
thought it would either pass orthey could deal with it
effectively, and they couldn'tit effectively and they couldn't
.
And it just makes me wonder ifthat's the moment we're living
through right now.
And then every moment in historyplays out differently.
So I don't assume that thiswill play out exactly the same,
but it does worry me.
And what it would take from allof us is there have to be
(15:17):
people that are willing to standup, but those are the first.
It's like the first wave ofsoldiers.
Those are the people that theregime is going to take the most
fierce action to send a messageto the rest of us.
So those are the people thatare going to, potentially the
people going to prison or beingkilled.
Dr. Benesh (15:31):
Right, and that's why I think it was important
early on with some of theprotests that the crowds were
mostly middle class white people, right, that we could afford to
protest because you know theTrump administration isn't
turning its head to us, and sothat's probably the worst case
(15:53):
scenario for this wholesituation, right, probably the
worst case scenario for thiswhole situation, right.
The people who are leastdirectly affected are the ones
that are going to have to be theones to stand up, and that's
the hardest group to mobilize.
Shawn (16:07):
Well, we're the ones that can hide the easiest.
Dr. Benesh (16:09):
Right.
Shawn (16:10):
There's that it's a it's I don't know if it's a poem, but
that you know what I'm talkingabout where it's like first they
came for that can so easilyapply today.
Right, it was.
First it was supposedlyundocumented immigrants, then it
was legal immigrants, then itwas even citizens and residence
holders, and now it's homelessfolks.
Dr. Benesh (16:26):
Yeah, yeah.
And they spin these narrativesthat just don't even care about
the facts, right.
Shawn (16:32):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Benesh (16:32):
And that happened, that started happening a while
ago, this whole, you know,questioning of any kind of, you
know, objective truth.
I mean, there's so many thingsthat went into, you know, making
this moment possible that areso long laid, do you think?
Shawn (16:50):
we can go back.
Dr. Benesh (16:57):
Yeah, because I'm an optimist.
But that's terrible.
That might mean the end of me,right?
Shawn (16:59):
I don't know.
What do you do with theory.
I think that I keep saying this, but I keep saying we're a dead
democracy walking.
But what I'm really trying tosay is I think democracy in
America as we understood it isjust over, and I know to some
people still today this soundshistrionic or hyperbolic or
something, but I would argue itwas even during the Biden
(17:21):
presidency.
I remember when Biden waselected and I was asking people
at the time like what if Bidenis just like Paul von Hindenburg
at the end of the Weimar GermanRepublic, their president?
He was like 84, I think at thetime and he just wasn't up to
the task of taking on Hitler andthe Nazi party and I was like,
what, if that's what this is?
This is a brief respite, right,and then it falls.
(17:44):
I at that time was thinking Ialready think our democracy is
so broken that one I don't thinkwe do go back to it.
I also just want to throw outthere.
Dr. Benesh (17:55):
I'm not sure I want to go back to it.
Shawn (17:55):
There were a bunch of things that I think were built
into our system, that werefailures and weaknesses that
allowed us to get to this moment, and I guess I would like to
understand what the next phaseof American democracy could look
like.
And I'll just throw out there Ithink we could do away with the
Second Amendment.
I'm totally fine with somethingthat clearly says Americans,
(18:17):
within certain parameters, havea right to guns that are
specifically used to hunt forfood, but I don't see why we
can't outlaw anything else likeweapons, people hunting things.
I also think we need a right toprivacy that's clearly codified
.
Until we do, I think there'sjust this wiggle room that
(18:37):
allows both liberals andconservatives to play around
when they're in power.
Dr. Benesh (18:42):
Well there's.
I mean we also need to changethe way we draw our districts.
We might want to think aboutthe way we choose
representatives to both housesof Congress.
We might want to rethink theway that we select Supreme Court
justices.
I mean, if we're going to do ado-over, there's a lot of things
(19:05):
that are wrong with our system.
Shawn (19:07):
Hey, I want to bounce something off of you.
So you know, there's this wholeredistricting push which God,
whenever you think it's as badas it could get, then this shit
happens.
Dr. Benesh (19:15):
I know I was like can you do that?
Like you can't do that, andthen I'm like, oh, there is no
law against it.
Shawn (19:21):
Texas has done it before.
They've redistricted halfwaythrough before.
It just didn't get a lot ofattention.
Dr. Benesh (19:27):
What was their reason?
The last time, I think it wasthe same thing.
Shawn (19:30):
They just wanted to add seats.
It wasn't so threatening, Isuppose, at the time.
But what I was thinking is thisis crazy and I don't really
know enough about theconstitutional parameters here,
but I'm not quite sure, and Ihave to do some research on this
how we define a state and Iknow there is a definition right
(19:50):
Like a certain group of peopledelineate some borders and have
a legislature and then petitionto become part of the United
States or something.
I think that's something alongthose lines.
Don't quote me on that.
But in the Constitution, whenit says, like each state shall
have two senators, I wonder ifthere's a way for us to keep the
boundaries of states as theyexist but rename them as, like
(20:15):
you know, washington State isDistrict 1, california is
District 3, whatever, but thenestablish something like every
20 years we redraw what's calledstate boundaries, that breaks
the country up into 50 regionsthat have the same number of
people and give them to senators, because now that's a state
(20:36):
right, and then every regionwill have the same number of
representatives.
Wyoming won't have what is it?
Dr. Benesh (20:42):
63 times what california has I think it's way
easier to just change the sizeof the senate or something.
I mean.
Either of those things is goingto require a constitutional
amendment, because I do thinkthat the constitution, you know
it, has a trying to think of howit defines states I mean, yeah,
exactly that's the well, whatif california broke itself up
into five states?
Yeah, maybe that's the nextthing newsom will be tweeting
(21:05):
about in all caps well, to befair, he could probably eke out.
Shawn (21:09):
We're gonna get more senators I'm actually starting
to pivot and think like maybethe senate is where it has to
happen.
Dr. Benesh (21:16):
Yeah.
Shawn (21:17):
But then, at this stage, at this point, aren't we just
grasping at?
Dr. Benesh (21:21):
straws.
I mean it's, it's turning.
I mean this redistricting thingis turning into a nuclear war,
right?
I mean it's like you know, well, we're going to blow it up.
Ok, well then, so are we.
And then it's like what is that?
What's the end game, you know?
Shawn (21:32):
I mean I was thinking a few years ago, maybe like a
decade ago, I was like, are weheaded towards a civil war?
And for some reason I'vestopped worrying so much about
that, as much as I have aboutauthoritarianism.
But what I hear from I havequite a few friends that live
abroad in different areas of theworld they keep asking if the
United States is headed towardsa civil war.
Dr. Benesh (21:52):
Well, I mean, that's one way for things to go.
To go right is for it to get sodire that the majority finally
decides to rise up against thisregime, and I'm sure we would
get lots of help from ourfriends around the world, right?
Shawn (22:10):
do you?
Dr. Benesh (22:11):
yeah, I do, I don't know.
Know, I mean they don't respectTrump and his administration.
Shawn (22:18):
Yeah.
Dr. Benesh (22:19):
And I think that's much less Pollyannish than you
know.
You were talking about some ofthe earlier, you know, experts
talking about how well thepolice will never go along with
it, or the military will nevergo along with it, or you know,
whatever, whatever, like.
I think it's far more likely toit's far, far easier, or maybe
(22:40):
more justifiable, to rely on our, our former allies, who have
been isolated by thisadministration, than it is to
rely on, you know, members ofthe military or something, to to
be the ones to save us.
Not that I'm saying anythingbad about the military.
I just I just think the designof it is makes it really
difficult, especially given thathe know, took care of all the
generals you know, so that allhis friends are in charge.
Shawn (23:05):
This is another sick component of it is like the use
of the military and the NationalGuard Cause, like we know, that
these are heavily populatedwith people of color, hispanic
folks, black, folks At the lowranks yeah.
And then to like, put them onthe streets, essentially
confronting, you know, hispanicsoldiers that now have to
essentially confront their ownfamily members, potentially.
Dr. Benesh (23:27):
Yeah, and the ICE, the Homeland Security ICE stuff
is just, it's just egregious.
Shawn (23:34):
Yeah, I don't know that I trust our allies, I mean maybe
in the long run, but I've beenreally disappointed in some of
them.
Dr. Benesh (23:41):
I mean I kind of get where, and I'm sure it will
take them a while.
You know they have to be surethat it's like you know, because
that's a difficult ethicaljudgment to make in terms of,
you know, intervening militarilyin some sort of a civil
conflict.
Shawn (23:55):
Yeah, of you know, intervening militarily in some
sort of a civil conflict?
Yeah, I mean well, massiveimplications.
Yeah, I wish they would levelup a little quicker.
I understand that our allies,especially European, canadian,
they've really built theirdemocracies around this idea of
the allies that we have and therole that the United States
plays and the institutions andthe norms and the values that we
(24:16):
hold, and so they're stillplaying that game.
But I wish they'd kind of levelup a bit faster and recognize
that, like the tariff thing,trump may agree to like 15
percent tariffs, but as soon ashe wants you something from you,
policy wise, he's going tothreaten that again, and so to
me it's like just recognize thatthat's going to happen.
Dr. Benesh (24:34):
Yeah, that's the whole.
I mean, that's the whole.
Reason why we want the rule oflaw is so you can rely on what a
leader says, or a threat thatthey make, or whatever, and he's
just like running amok on that.
Shawn (24:45):
Yeah, and right now I feel like our allies have an
opportunity to tell their peoplelook, this is going to hurt,
but here's here's the foil forit.
You know, hurt, but here'shere's the foil for it, you know
.
But like constantly trying toappease him, I think, eventually
, my fear is that their ownpopulations are going to be
upset, get upset with them forthe way that they're handling
this, and that could enable therise of the far right in those
(25:06):
countries well, and they'realready ascendant right I mean
it's not like we're the onlycountry that has you know shades
of authoritarianism.
No, Italy, Netherlands, the UKflirted with it, but then also
France, Spain, Austria.
Yeah.
Dr. Benesh (25:25):
I mean it's something that's happening, it's
not a one-off kind of thing.
What is it I mean?
Is it racism across the board?
Shawn (25:35):
I honestly don't know.
A lot of people say, well, thisis about immigration and
populism that's kind of rootedin a xenophobia, and I think
these things are all true, but Ithink there's something deeper
and more psychological about it,Like what?
I don't know if it's just power.
Dr. Benesh (25:52):
Is it money?
Is that the bottom line driverof Donald Trump?
Shawn (25:58):
I don't know, because when we talk about money, I
think the people that reallycare, really really care about
vast amounts of wealth and moneyand how it moves, are like
these tech bros, elon Musk, butI think, like your average
citizen, I think they say thingslike yeah, I'm noticing that
prices are rising, that's whyI'm voting for Trump, right, but
as soon as Trump's in officeand prices are still rising, it
(26:22):
doesn't bother them.
Dr. Benesh (26:24):
No, it's not the vote.
The voters I'm not saying thevoters are motivated by money.
The voters, I think, are racist.
Sorry, I think it's.
Shawn (26:33):
I'm asking about Trump.
Dr. Benesh (26:38):
Like you know, he doesn't.
I didn't feel like in his firstterm, especially that he
particularly wanted the job,Right yeah, and so I felt like
there had to be some othermotivator and I feel like for
him everything is money,Although I think he likes power
obviously.
Shawn (26:57):
Yeah.
Dr. Benesh (26:58):
And young women, sorry.
Shawn (27:00):
There's something just so gross about the United States
right now.
Dr. Benesh (27:03):
Something.
Shawn (27:04):
Yeah, what if somebody were to say, like history will
look back on this period of timeand they won't be able to
mention Trump without mentioningHitler, or Hitler without
mentioning Trump?
Dr. Benesh (27:14):
I mean, I guess it depends on what he does.
I mean, Shawn, it's only beeneight months.
Shawn (27:19):
I know that's the scary part.
I was actually thinking aboutthat this morning.
Okay, we're going to get to apoint where, like, okay, we're
25% of the way through, maybeRight, but look what he's done
already.
Dr. Benesh (27:30):
I know, but like he hasn't well, he has killed
people through that ridiculousaction he took on USAID.
Shawn (27:38):
Yeah.
Dr. Benesh (27:39):
Which Potentially millions?
Makes me I can't even tell youhow angry and sad I just I don't
even know how to wrap my mindaround it and I don't know how
people can go about their daywhen that's happening.
Again, like I, you know, I feelyou when you're like you know
(28:01):
it is, it's ridiculous.
Like I'm you know, I'm takingon this new job, I'm worrying
about all this paperwork,whatever I'm you know figuring
out with Finn like where he'sgoing to go to college and just
move Molly into a new apartmentshe's got her first real job and
like all these things and I'mlike but like Gaza is starving.
Shawn (28:19):
Literally.
Dr. Benesh (28:20):
Like.
What am I like?
What does any of this stuffmatter if we can't even do
anything to make our stupidpresident send food to starving
people?
Shawn (28:31):
And destroy it instead of share it.
There's something it's not justcynical, it's to me.
It's not just cynical, it's tome, it's evil, it is the
definition of evil.
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Benesh (28:40):
And it's not much different than killing people
directly.
Shawn (28:45):
Yeah, yeah, especially when you know that's what's
happening and you're doing itdeliberately.
Dr. Benesh (28:49):
It's one step different, right yeah yeah.
It's one.
You know, it's one degreedifferent.
Shawn (28:54):
And they're even normalizing that.
When you know they'reconfronted with people that have
died in ICE custody or peoplethat have had heart attacks
while being arrested, theresponse from the administration
is well, people die all thetime.
Dr. Benesh (29:06):
Yeah, hey.
So in your field of study, howdo you feel about the courts
these days?
Well, they took the case of, orthey have the opportunity right
to take the case of, gaymarriage, so that's great
everyone's like oh, this is this, this case is such, it's so bad
on the merits they won't eventake it.
Shawn (29:25):
And I'm, like we, sure about that why would you say
that?
Dr. Benesh (29:29):
yeah yeah, I don't, I oscillate between I.
There are some justices and Ithink I've said this to you
before some justices who I justthink live in a different world.
Shawn (29:42):
Alito Thomas.
Dr. Benesh (29:44):
No, they're evil.
Oh okay, I thought that's theother world you were talking
about.
No, like I feel like RobertsBarrett Kavanaugh to some degree
Gorsuch.
I feel like they just don'tlive in our reality.
They don't understand themoment that they're making
(30:06):
decisions in, and they aremaking decisions as if
everything is OK and normal.
And so I see some of theirdecisions and I'm like, okay,
you could defend this decisionusing legal analysis and tools
and interpretive strategies andphilosophies if it weren't the
(30:27):
case that this was the Trumpadministration and they don't
recognize a distinction.
Thomas and Alito are gone.
There's no hope for them, but,like these four, I feel like are
not gone.
They just don't understand themoment, and so I don't know if
that might be something theycould come to understand.
(30:49):
What do you think of that?
Shawn (30:52):
I am a pessimist, Right so you're going to survive.
Well, we'll see, because Poshis an pessimist, right?
So you're going to survive.
Well, I was, we'll see, becausePasha's an optimist.
So I was thinking a lot abouthow a lot of experts have said
things over the years, over thelast couple of years, like
Congress, is fiercely protectiveof its realm of influence, and
so, therefore, they won't.
Dr. Benesh (31:12):
Well, it used to be.
It's not anymore.
Shawn (31:14):
Right, and the courts?
I was told numerous timesyou'll be surprised.
The courts aren't willing toabdicate too much because they
have won a constitutionalresponsibility.
But two, they have a certainsphere of influence that they're
going to want to protect.
And that makes sense if youlive in a logical world.
But I think there's anotherlogic to this, which is what if
(31:35):
they all just agree with themission?
Dr. Benesh (31:41):
Well, that's what I struggle with.
Alito and Thomas agree with themission, no question.
What I wonder is about theother four, and it does appear
to be the case that they mightagree in some respects, because
I think you know the founders,when they established this
system, assumed that each of thethree branches would be at
(32:01):
least some.
You know some semblance ofself-protecting.
You know that they would wantto at least be at some level
interested in maintaining theirown influence, and that has
(32:22):
always been the case until now.
I mean because I've never.
I mean it's shocking to me thatCongress would allow an
executive, regardless of howmuch they agree with him, to run
Rofshad over their powers inthe way that Trump has done.
Shawn (32:38):
That's why I think we are living in very unique times and
I don't think anything that wethink should apply, we can
expect will apply to curb this,and I think there's a Venn
diagram.
I think this is where Trump isvery smart.
There's a Venn diagram of whathe cares about and what he knows
conservatives care about, and Ithink what he does is he plays
(33:01):
in their sandbox in such a waywhere he takes a lot of power
from them but uses it to givethem what they want, and so
their options are get what wewant and let him do what he
wants, or fight him on this, onsomething we actually want.
Dr. Benesh (33:19):
Yeah.
Shawn (33:20):
If we win, we lose.
We don't get what we want.
Dr. Benesh (33:22):
Whereas the Democrats would definitely fight
him.
You know they would.
Shawn (33:28):
Oh, you mean if they had a Democratic president?
Dr. Benesh (33:31):
Right.
Shawn (33:31):
Yes, yes.
Dr. Benesh (33:32):
Yeah, but you kind of lost me when you said that
Trump was smart.
Shawn (33:36):
So I know.
What do you hope for over thenext couple of years?
Dr. Benesh (33:41):
I hope so.
I think I think where I haveseen some hope is among my
daughter's generation.
Um, I feel like they are moreengaged than the average 18 to
25 demographic.
I'm not, I, I I am assuming ithas something to do with trump,
(34:04):
but I don't know.
But they, uh, that group, Ifeel like.
I feel like they're coming inat the perfect time because I
think I think my generation, ourgeneration, are we in the same
generation?
Probably?
yeah yeah, yeah um, I feel likewe maybe went too far with the
(34:25):
you know the very carefullanguage, and the you know
adamant inclusion and theprogressive whatever, and we
alienated a lot of people forthings that they maybe agree
with.
They just didn't agree with howmilitant we were, and I feel
(34:48):
like these kids have thosesensibilities, but they also
understand that there's a way toadvance them without being as
in your face, as maybe our groupthought we had to be, and I
think that has the potential tobring people on board that
(35:09):
haven't been on board and mightoffer some glimpse of
possibility.
Shawn (35:16):
Well, I'll raise a glass to that.
I do agree, though.
I was also in spaces sometimeswhere I'm hesitant sometimes,
because I feel like in momentslike this it's like you're in or
you're out, and so I want to bereally careful about giving an
inch to the whateverconservative movement is right
now.
But I have I definitely was inspaces sometimes where I felt
(35:38):
like progressives were justunforgiving of somebody
accidentally using the wrongpronouns or mispronouncing a
foreign name or something orstruggling with understanding
things.
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Benesh (35:52):
No, and they weren't .
It's not like they were beinghostile, it was just it was so
far beyond their experience thatthey, you know, you have to
understand.
It's going to take people timeand I think maybe we weren't
giving people time.
Shawn (36:05):
I agree.
That being said, I do think weall have agency and at some
point you're choosing light ordarkness.
Dr. Benesh (36:13):
No doubt I mean, and like I don't understand why
anyone cares what other peopleyou know want to do in spaces
that are private, you know, andI don't understand why people
you know think that people are,you know, less than or more than
based on who they love or howthey live, you know.
(36:34):
I mean that I don't understandthat perception, especially from
you.
Know, the thing that I thinkmakes me the craziest about this
whole timeline is that,especially from you.
Know, the thing that I thinkmakes me the craziest about this
whole timeline is that you knowthe big government people are
supposed to be the liberals andlike these conservatives are
like everywhere.
Shawn (36:54):
Yeah, also, it's weird to be the one that's like well
states rights.
Dr. Benesh (36:59):
I know Now, I want states rights.
I also want a constitutionalconvention.
Yeah, yeah.
Shawn (37:03):
Yeah, and you can't want that, I know Now.
I want states' rights.
I also want a constitutionalconvention.
Dr. Benesh (37:06):
Yeah, yep, yep, and you can't want that.
Shawn (37:07):
I know, I know.
Dr. Benesh (37:09):
Yes, you know how bad that will be.
Shawn (37:11):
Oh yeah, right now it would be terrible and I also
don't want to.
I do and I don't want toredistrict ourselves into
corners.
I know I don't want to live inthat America, but I also feel
like I don't want to live in theAmerica where the only ones
doing it are Republicans.
Dr. Benesh (37:26):
I know.
Shawn (37:27):
So it's just the reality is I just don't want to live
here.
Dr. Benesh (37:30):
I, yeah, I mean, I understand that feeling.
I also just think it's.
You know, it's a beautifulcountry.
The wrong people run for officeShawn.
Well it's not going to get anybetter.
It will, it could.
Shawn (37:45):
You know, what I really have hope for is that Ohio,
maine and North Carolina grow upa little in the next election
and elect Democratic senators.
That would make us 50-50.
And, like right now,republicans are targeting like
Minnesota, like that's not agreat map for them.
Dr. Benesh (38:06):
No, but Minnesota was a lot closer than it's ever
been.
Shawn (38:09):
New York was too.
Dr. Benesh (38:11):
And Wisconsin drives me crazy.
I guess we'll see.
We need more parties.
Probably Probably Elon Muskwill save us that guy.
Shawn (38:20):
I actually do believe that we need more parties.
Dr. Benesh (38:23):
Oh, we for sure do.
Shawn (38:25):
It can't just be the crazy nut job starting parties.
Dr. Benesh (38:28):
Yes, we for sure do, because no one likes the
Democrats or the Republicans,and I think we can all agree on
that.
Shawn (38:34):
Yeah, okay, for the final time, what's something
interesting you've been reading,watching, listening to or doing
lately?
Dr. Benesh (38:42):
Oh God, all I've been doing is this onboarding
for this new job.
Let me think the Bear oh do youlike?
It, oh God I love that show?
Shawn (38:54):
Oh, I do not.
But tell me, go ahead, is it?
Dr. Benesh (38:56):
too chaotic for you, yes, yes.
Oh, I love the chaos.
I think it's hilarious and Ilove the writing and I love the
chaos.
I think it's hilarious and Ilove the writing and I love the
characters and I love cooking.
I love cooking shows anyway, oh, I just eat that family drama
right up.
Shawn (39:10):
Oh wow.
I watched one episode and I waslike, if this is like, I can't
do it.
Dr. Benesh (39:14):
Oh, and some of them are way worse.
Did you watch the first one?
Like the pilot?
Yes, oh God, if you could everstand to invest in it.
Um, wait till you get to thechristmas episode.
Is that the one with the mom?
Shawn (39:29):
yes, okay, yeah, I've heard a lot about that one oh, I
love that show shawn.
Dr. Benesh (39:34):
Is it a comedy?
No, god, no, I don't know whyit's in the comedy category.
That's crazy yeah I mean thereare funny things about it, sure,
but like I mean there's likeall kinds of mental health
issues, mm-hmm, you know, tonsof family drama, but like so
much love, it's just, oh, it'ssuch a good show.
Shawn (39:58):
Well, that might be part of the reason I don't.
I didn't like it is because Iwas really like what's the fun?
Is this?
What kids?
Dr. Benesh (40:04):
find funny.
No, no, no, it's not a comedy.
I would never categorize it asa comedy.
Shawn (40:10):
All right, dr Benesh, thank you for contributing over
the last almost four years.
I appreciate it and of coursewe'll stay in touch, but nobody
else listening will.
Dr. Benesh (40:22):
It's been super fun and then that's good for the
audience because they won't haveto listen to me giggle all the
time.
Shawn (40:29):
It's what added to it.
It's the only thing of value.
Dr. Benesh (40:36):
Let's just have a podcast with Sara Giggling.
Shawn (40:45):
I guess the final thing I'd like to say is that, like
many of you, I don't know whatto do in this moment.
Democracy has failed.
In the United States we arestaring down the throat of
authoritarianism and I don'tknow how to respond.
There is a collective actionproblem.
Know how to respond?
There is a collective actionproblem.
It takes all of usdemonstrating, boycotting,
hurting, frankly, to really makea difference, to disrupt the
(41:08):
chain of events.
But we're all afraid and orangry and or self-interested.
I can't tell you how often I'veheard from my progressive
friends.
Well, this isn't reallyaffecting me right now, so I'm
just going to keep my head down,and I guess we're all aware,
theoretically, that burying ourheads in the sand is not a
solution to authoritarianism.
(41:29):
But in practice we areexperiencing what it must have
been like for society, forfamilies, for individuals, in
the early days of Nazi Germany,when Hitler consolidated power,
increased pressure, cracked downon undesirable people.
It was probably easier to justkeep their heads down and hope
(41:49):
that it wouldn't impact them atfirst anyway.
It's easy to scorn thatmentality, but living through
this moment in the United States, I guess I'm beginning to
understand it.
But I'm not comfortable with it.
So I want to spend some timethinking about how to counter
authoritarianism effectively,how to implement strategies to
(42:09):
this effect and how to rebuildAmerica.
And maybe we shouldn't belooking to Nazi Germany to help
us understand this moment, butrather the founding parents and
the ways in which theygalvanized a diverse public to
throw off the yoke ofauthoritarianism and build
something more free and moredemocratic, and also learn from
(42:30):
the mistakes they made, so thatwhatever we build next isn't
susceptible to bad actors likeDonald Trump and the current
version of the GOP.
I'm interested in hearing frompeople with ideas about this.
These are the people I want tosee on TV and hear on podcasts
and receive emails from, andwhen I next contribute to the
(42:51):
discourse, I want to be doing sofrom a place of construction
and functional action that canbe taken to build a better
democracy.
So stay tuned.
All right, this has been DeepDive.
Chat soon, folks.
Thank you, thank you.
I just I don't even know how to wrap my mind around
it and I don't know how peoplecan go about their day when
that's happening.
Again, like I, you know, I feelyou when you're like you know
it is, it's ridiculous.
Like I'm you know I'm taking onthis new job, I'm worrying
about all this paperwork,whatever I'm you know figuring
out with Finn like where he'sgoing to go to college and just
(00:22):
move Molly into a new apartmentand she's got her first real job
, and like all these things, andI'm like, but like Gaza is
starving.
Shawn (00:31):
Literally.
Dr. Benesh (00:32):
Like.
What am I like?
What does any of this stuffmatter if we can't even do
anything to make our stupidpresident?
Send food to starving people.
Send food to starving people.
Shawn (00:49):
Welcome to Deep Dive with me, Shawn C Fettig.
So I've just released the lastepisode of my limited series
Leaving America for Americansthat are considering leaving the
States, what options areavailable, how to obtain a visa,
residency or even citizenshipin another country, and all the
things to consider and preparefor, including immigration
(01:18):
processes and taxes.
This week, I'm returning toDeep Dive for one potentially
final episode.
Like most of you, I'm sure, inthis current political
environment in which we aretruly experiencing ascendant
authoritarianism, I have foundmyself getting caught up in the
daily disaster, spending much ofmy time digesting the news,
jumping down rabbit holes,scaring my friends and family
(01:39):
about these end times andexpending all of my energy on
every horrible thing coming outof the White House and the GOP.
And while I think having aknowledge of and being disgusted
by what is happening in thiscountry is important, I've found
that it's pulled me away fromthe things I'm really interested
in, which is thinking about andengaging in activities and
(02:02):
actions that can effectivelycounter this authoritarianism in
the United States.
I need to recalibrate how Iconsume and process this stuff
so that it's not just souldestroying but motivating.
So to do that, I've decided topull back from Deep Dive, the
weekly shows I've been producingfor the past three and a half
years.
This may be a hiatus for DeepDive or it may be permanent.
(02:26):
In the meantime, I am workingon some limited series projects
that I think are better suitedto how I'm feeling and thinking
these days and hopefully will beof more value to you, the
listener, than punditry andhorror porn would be focusing on
effective strategies to counterautocracy, oligarchy and
authoritarianism, as well aswhat we or our children or our
(02:50):
grandchildren are going to betasked with rebuilding an
American democracy.
So I'm not disappearing forgood.
I'm just taking some time awayand we'll be back eventually
with some stuff that I hope willcontribute to a stronger and
better Democratic Americanfuture.
Today, my guest is Deep Dive'sfirst guest ever and now last
(03:13):
friend of the pod and mypersonal friend, dr Sara Benesh,
professor of political science,director of curriculum and
governance, secretary of theCollege at the University of
Wisconsin-Milwaukee.
We discuss how the country haschanged since Deep Dive launched
the state of the country now,how to process what's happening
(03:34):
and maybe some baby steps towardeffective resistance to an
authoritarian state.
All right, if you like thisepisode or any episode, and
despite the fact that Deep Divewon't be releasing anything in
the near future.
As I said, I am working on someother projects, so like, share
and follow Deep Dive with Shawnon your favorite podcast
platform and or subscribe to thepodcast on YouTube to stay
(03:57):
updated on developments.
And, as always, if you have anythoughts, questions or comments
, feel free to email me atdeepdivewithshawn at gmailcom.
Let's do a deep dive, dr Benesh.
(04:18):
Thanks for being here.
How are you?
Dr. Benesh (04:20):
You know I'm exhausted.
How are you?
Shawn (04:25):
Yeah, I'm probably the same.
I wonder why.
Dr. Benesh (04:29):
Oh, I don't know.
Shawn (04:32):
This is the first time I think we've actually chatted
outside of like text and emailsince the election right.
Dr. Benesh (04:39):
Probably.
Yeah, I haven't been on yourshow for a while.
Shawn (04:43):
No, there's not, much has changed.
Dr. Benesh (04:46):
Yeah.
Shawn (04:47):
So this is it, though I'm closing up shop.
Dr. Benesh (04:50):
Yeah, what made you decide to do that?
Shawn (04:54):
There's a handful of reasons.
We have always talked aboutmoving back to New Zealand and
we've thought about maybe movingthat timeline up.
Why?
Yeah we can get to that.
Dr. Benesh (05:05):
Whatever for?
Shawn (05:08):
But we're going back to New Zealand for a month this
December and you know we'regoing to start kind of actively
working towards that, and so Iwas thinking of maybe pivoting
and focusing on that, becauseit's not easy to make an
international move for anyonethat's ever done it, but also I
don't know.
I guess, primarily given wherethe country is today and the
discourse surrounding it, Ithink that the types of guests
(05:29):
that I've had on Deep Dive andcould have moving forward on
Deep Dive are really the samepeople or pundits, or activists
or researchers that are on abunch of podcasts and TV shows.
So by being on Deep Divethey're just, I think, offering
some of the same thing that canbe found on other platforms and
outlets.
I mean, there's no shade here.
But because I think there's aplace for this, for punditry,
(05:52):
for talking about the state of,you know, the world and the
country, I think that'simportant, there's a value to it
.
But I think I'm ready to moveaway from punditry about how bad
things are and maybe starttalking about what actually
could be done to counter therise of what I think is
authoritarianism in the UnitedStates, and it's just not part
of the conversation right now.
I think this moment is kind ofrevealing a glaring absence in
(06:15):
the maybe research or maybejournalism or something.
It's very easy, I think, to saythat we need things We've talked
about this, like bipartisanship, but that's not going to happen
right now or that we need whatelse we talked about this, like
bipartisanship, but that's notgoing to happen right now or
that we need what else.
Have we talked aboutRecommitting to norms and
institutions, but that's notgoing to happen.
So I think we need, you know,this moment really calls for
somebody or some people to tellus what can functionally be done
(06:36):
to save democracy, and I don'tthink that's really what's
happening right now.
I think we're all floundering,but when that narrative forms,
when we start to speak in thoseterms, I think I'd be happy to
be part of that conversation.
But right now I just don't seehow Deep Dive is offering
anything that stands out fromthe rest of the pack.
So and I'm not absolving myselfof responsibility here, I'm not
saying that I'm taking apassive role in this, or I
(06:57):
should take one I just trulydon't know what to do.
Dr. Benesh (07:05):
Yeah, I mean I think what you offered that other
podcasts don't always offer isan opportunity to really dive
into the research much morefully.
You know, I mean I don't reallycall what you've been doing
punditry.
I think it's, you know, farmore thoughtful than that.
Punditry is easy and that's youknow.
I mean I spend most of the time.
So my husband always has CNN on.
(07:26):
He's a news junkie and I spendhalf my time walking through the
living room looking at whathe's listening to and going, oh,
it's so obvious.
Or like, oh, come on, you knowthat that's only half the story.
Or you know, like just kind ofbeing annoyed with the pundits,
you know, because they makeeverything seem like it's so
(07:47):
simple and nothing's simple, andI feel like you at least
created space for that, you know, for people to talk about how
not simple things are, and Ithink that's something.
But I mean, where is, where arethese people?
Who are these people?
What area of work are thesepeople doing that are going to
(08:08):
give you what you're looking forin terms of a way forward, do
you think?
Shawn (08:13):
I don't know.
I know there's a literature onthis You're probably familiar
with some of it which is how tostop democratic backsliding or
how to overthrowauthoritarianism or resistance
movements that have worked inpast, and I think there's
something to be mined there andsomething that's important to
draw from that.
But I just don't think thatanything but you've talked to
(08:34):
some of those people, haven'tyou?
Yeah, but you know, and thisagain, there's no shade here,
but a lot of it is things thathave to be done before you've
turned a corner.
There's very little that saysonce you've turned the corner,
what can you do?
You know, like, once you knowHitler was chancellor and had
declared emergency powers andbecame a dictator, there was
very little that could be doneoutside of, dare I say it, I
(08:58):
guess like mass protest.
But there is research that sayspeaceful protest.
What is that?
We've talked about this rightthat at 3.5% of some type of
resistance or peaceful protestscan counter authoritarianism.
Dr. Benesh (09:13):
Right, but even that , I mean that's based on you
know what has happened in thepast and what works in other
countries, and are you familiarwith this Cliff Cash guy.
Shawn (09:24):
No.
Dr. Benesh (09:25):
He's like a comedian , but he's decided to just try
to go all in and try to try tostop this thing from happening.
And so he's out there, like youknow, protesting.
He's like focused on Fox News alot and he's, you know, trying
to coordinate like kind of acommunity organizer on the
(09:46):
ground.
But he keeps posting onFacebook like how frustrated he
is that people aren't engagingmore, Like why aren't more
people coming to protest?
Why aren't more people going toDC when Trump takes over the
city?
You know like why aren't morepeople?
And you know, I think that'swhere you know some of the
literature tells us where thesemovements can come from and how
(10:09):
they can work and all thosekinds of things, but that
literature doesn't know how lazyAmericans are.
Well, we're commodified.
Shawn (10:15):
I have a lot of friends that have told me recently and
we can talk about how I'mstarting to layer what happened
in Nazi Germany to what might behappening here.
But we are very commodified, we.
We can easily distractourselves with TV, with our
phones, for better or worse, andI guess there's an argument
about capitalism in heresomewhere.
But we have a pretty strongmiddle class in the United
(10:37):
States and none of us you and meincluded, I would assume want
to lose that.
And you know, I think we allknow, that to go protest
somewhere requires taking timeoff from our jobs, and I think
some people are lucky enough tobe able to do that and still get
paid, and some people wouldhave to give up their jobs to do
it.
Dr. Benesh (10:53):
But even the people that are lucky enough to do it
you know the fact the very factthat they're lucky enough to do
it suggests that they're notbeing so negatively impacted by
what's happening in theireveryday life that they feel the
need to put away whatever theiryou know their book or their
device, or their you knowvacation plans to go and do it.
Shawn (11:19):
It's a weird time to be living.
Frankly, I consider it somewhatinstructive.
If I could look at this onlyanthropologically but I live
with this I would say low levelof dread every day, but I think
it's getting to be a pretty highlevel of dread.
But this weird dynamic, whichis I'm not directly affected yet
I know people that are and Ifeel really weird.
(11:42):
I've had some conversationswith people about how weird it
is to go to work every day anddo our jobs and talk about
things that, in this largerpicture, just seem very
pointless and insignificant, andyet we are.
Dr. Benesh (11:53):
Right, because I think we assume it's going to be
okay.
And you know, back to yourpoint about Germans, you know, I
mean I think we all kind ofmake these assumptions about
(12:22):
what happened then.
And you know you're right.
I mean we've, we've talkedabout this Like we kind of as
business, and that's what we'reall doing.
Yeah it's not.
We're not saying it's OK andwe're not saying we're OK with
it, and I mean Trump's approval.
Ratings are terrible.
Ratings are terrible.
Shawn (12:41):
Yeah.
Dr. Benesh (12:42):
But we're not making the time to do anything about
it, and part of that.
Shawn (12:54):
I think, is this profound feeling of helplessness.
Yeah, that's what I'm startingto come to realize about what I
think must have been happeningin the early years of Nazi
Germany.
I've been reading this book.
I read this book called DefyingHitler by Sebastian Hafner.
He was a journalist writing inWeimar Germany and into the Nazi
era, but he writes about theend of World War I, that era up
through the fall of WeimarGermany and just what it was
(13:14):
like in civil society to watchthis kind of rise of Nazism and
how people responded.
But I'm also reading now thisother book called my German
Question, by Peter Gay.
And he was a young guy, I thinkhe was a teenager in the 1930s
in Berlin and his family werenon-religious Jews.
(13:35):
And he talks a lot about andthis is what's really resonating
with me about how his family,especially his father, they
could see what was happening buthis father kept doing this
thing where it's like, you know,we're non-practicing Jews, it's
not really affecting us thatmuch.
We're, you know, upper middleclass, we're doing well, you
know we can just keep our headsdown and stick through this.
(13:55):
And he talks about as a teenagerkind of growing up and learning
how to avoid some of the worstexcesses of the Nazi regime and
how to just focus on otherthings and stay apolitical, but
that over the years.
You know, it would have beeneasy in the early 30s for them
to leave, but they would havehad to give up their house,
their wealth, give up everythingand leave.
(14:16):
And they didn't know to whereand so they didn't.
And then, by the time they didleave, in the late 30s, they had
to give up everything.
They had to leave everythingbehind.
They had to rely on people tolike.
Dr. Benesh (14:30):
Essentially, use an underground railroad to get them
out and had to start over.
Shawn (14:32):
And you know, to me that's what I feel like is
happening is and I'm notadvocating, you know, I just did
Leaving America, I'm notadvocating that people should
consider leaving.
But there's this other maximthat came out of, I think,
poland where, like Polish Jews,there's a story associated with
this.
But the end is, those that werepessimistic survived because
they saw what was coming andthey took active measures to
(14:54):
avoid it, and those that wereoptimistic died because they
thought it would either pass orthey could deal with it
effectively, and they couldn'tit effectively and they couldn't
.
And it just makes me wonder ifthat's the moment we're living
through right now.
And then every moment in historyplays out differently.
So I don't assume that thiswill play out exactly the same,
but it does worry me.
And what it would take from allof us is there have to be
(15:17):
people that are willing to standup, but those are the first.
It's like the first wave ofsoldiers.
Those are the people that theregime is going to take the most
fierce action to send a messageto the rest of us.
So those are the people thatare going to, potentially the
people going to prison or beingkilled.
Dr. Benesh (15:31):
Right, and that's why I think it was important
early on with some of theprotests that the crowds were
mostly middle class white people, right, that we could afford to
protest because you know theTrump administration isn't
turning its head to us, and sothat's probably the worst case
(15:53):
scenario for this wholesituation, right, probably the
worst case scenario for thiswhole situation, right.
The people who are leastdirectly affected are the ones
that are going to have to be theones to stand up, and that's
the hardest group to mobilize.
Shawn (16:07):
Well, we're the ones that can hide the easiest.
Dr. Benesh (16:09):
Right.
Shawn (16:10):
There's that it's a it's I don't know if it's a poem, but
that you know what I'm talkingabout where it's like first they
came for that can so easilyapply today.
Right, it was.
First it was supposedlyundocumented immigrants, then it
was legal immigrants, then itwas even citizens and residence
holders, and now it's homelessfolks.
Dr. Benesh (16:26):
Yeah, yeah.
And they spin these narrativesthat just don't even care about
the facts, right.
Shawn (16:32):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Benesh (16:32):
And that happened, that started happening a while
ago, this whole, you know,questioning of any kind of, you
know, objective truth.
I mean, there's so many thingsthat went into, you know, making
this moment possible that areso long laid, do you think?
Shawn (16:50):
we can go back.
Dr. Benesh (16:57):
Yeah, because I'm an optimist.
But that's terrible.
That might mean the end of me,right?
Shawn (16:59):
I don't know.
What do you do with theory.
I think that I keep saying this, but I keep saying we're a dead
democracy walking.
But what I'm really trying tosay is I think democracy in
America as we understood it isjust over, and I know to some
people still today this soundshistrionic or hyperbolic or
something, but I would argue itwas even during the Biden
(17:21):
presidency.
I remember when Biden waselected and I was asking people
at the time like what if Bidenis just like Paul von Hindenburg
at the end of the Weimar GermanRepublic, their president?
He was like 84, I think at thetime and he just wasn't up to
the task of taking on Hitler andthe Nazi party and I was like,
what, if that's what this is?
This is a brief respite, right,and then it falls.
(17:44):
I at that time was thinking Ialready think our democracy is
so broken that one I don't thinkwe do go back to it.
I also just want to throw outthere.
Dr. Benesh (17:55):
I'm not sure I want to go back to it.
Shawn (17:55):
There were a bunch of things that I think were built
into our system, that werefailures and weaknesses that
allowed us to get to this moment, and I guess I would like to
understand what the next phaseof American democracy could look
like.
And I'll just throw out there Ithink we could do away with the
Second Amendment.
I'm totally fine with somethingthat clearly says Americans,
(18:17):
within certain parameters, havea right to guns that are
specifically used to hunt forfood, but I don't see why we
can't outlaw anything else likeweapons, people hunting things.
I also think we need a right toprivacy that's clearly codified
.
Until we do, I think there'sjust this wiggle room that
(18:37):
allows both liberals andconservatives to play around
when they're in power.
Dr. Benesh (18:42):
Well there's.
I mean we also need to changethe way we draw our districts.
We might want to think aboutthe way we choose
representatives to both housesof Congress.
We might want to rethink theway that we select Supreme Court
justices.
I mean, if we're going to do ado-over, there's a lot of things
(19:05):
that are wrong with our system.
Shawn (19:07):
Hey, I want to bounce something off of you.
So you know, there's this wholeredistricting push which God,
whenever you think it's as badas it could get, then this shit
happens.
Dr. Benesh (19:15):
I know I was like can you do that?
Like you can't do that, andthen I'm like, oh, there is no
law against it.
Shawn (19:21):
Texas has done it before.
They've redistricted halfwaythrough before.
It just didn't get a lot ofattention.
Dr. Benesh (19:27):
What was their reason?
The last time, I think it wasthe same thing.
Shawn (19:30):
They just wanted to add seats.
It wasn't so threatening, Isuppose, at the time.
But what I was thinking is thisis crazy and I don't really
know enough about theconstitutional parameters here,
but I'm not quite sure, and Ihave to do some research on this
how we define a state and Iknow there is a definition right
(19:50):
Like a certain group of peopledelineate some borders and have
a legislature and then petitionto become part of the United
States or something.
I think that's something alongthose lines.
Don't quote me on that.
But in the Constitution, whenit says, like each state shall
have two senators, I wonder ifthere's a way for us to keep the
boundaries of states as theyexist but rename them as, like
(20:15):
you know, washington State isDistrict 1, california is
District 3, whatever, but thenestablish something like every
20 years we redraw what's calledstate boundaries, that breaks
the country up into 50 regionsthat have the same number of
people and give them to senators, because now that's a state
(20:36):
right, and then every regionwill have the same number of
representatives.
Wyoming won't have what is it?
Dr. Benesh (20:42):
63 times what california has I think it's way
easier to just change the sizeof the senate or something.
I mean.
Either of those things is goingto require a constitutional
amendment, because I do thinkthat the constitution, you know
it, has a trying to think of howit defines states I mean, yeah,
exactly that's the well, whatif california broke itself up
into five states?
Yeah, maybe that's the nextthing newsom will be tweeting
(21:05):
about in all caps well, to befair, he could probably eke out.
Shawn (21:09):
We're gonna get more senators I'm actually starting
to pivot and think like maybethe senate is where it has to
happen.
Dr. Benesh (21:16):
Yeah.
Shawn (21:17):
But then, at this stage, at this point, aren't we just
grasping at?
Dr. Benesh (21:21):
straws.
I mean it's, it's turning.
I mean this redistricting thingis turning into a nuclear war,
right?
I mean it's like you know, well, we're going to blow it up.
Ok, well then, so are we.
And then it's like what is that?
What's the end game, you know?
Shawn (21:32):
I mean I was thinking a few years ago, maybe like a
decade ago, I was like, are weheaded towards a civil war?
And for some reason I'vestopped worrying so much about
that, as much as I have aboutauthoritarianism.
But what I hear from I havequite a few friends that live
abroad in different areas of theworld they keep asking if the
United States is headed towardsa civil war.
Dr. Benesh (21:52):
Well, I mean, that's one way for things to go.
To go right is for it to get sodire that the majority finally
decides to rise up against thisregime, and I'm sure we would
get lots of help from ourfriends around the world, right?
Shawn (22:10):
do you?
Dr. Benesh (22:11):
yeah, I do, I don't know.
Know, I mean they don't respectTrump and his administration.
Shawn (22:18):
Yeah.
Dr. Benesh (22:19):
And I think that's much less Pollyannish than you
know.
You were talking about some ofthe earlier, you know, experts
talking about how well thepolice will never go along with
it, or the military will nevergo along with it, or you know,
whatever, whatever, like.
I think it's far more likely toit's far, far easier, or maybe
(22:40):
more justifiable, to rely on our, our former allies, who have
been isolated by thisadministration, than it is to
rely on, you know, members ofthe military or something, to to
be the ones to save us.
Not that I'm saying anythingbad about the military.
I just I just think the designof it is makes it really
difficult, especially given thathe know, took care of all the
generals you know, so that allhis friends are in charge.
Shawn (23:05):
This is another sick component of it is like the use
of the military and the NationalGuard Cause, like we know, that
these are heavily populatedwith people of color, hispanic
folks, black, folks At the lowranks yeah.
And then to like, put them onthe streets, essentially
confronting, you know, hispanicsoldiers that now have to
essentially confront their ownfamily members, potentially.
Dr. Benesh (23:27):
Yeah, and the ICE, the Homeland Security ICE stuff
is just, it's just egregious.
Shawn (23:34):
Yeah, I don't know that I trust our allies, I mean maybe
in the long run, but I've beenreally disappointed in some of
them.
Dr. Benesh (23:41):
I mean I kind of get where, and I'm sure it will
take them a while.
You know they have to be surethat it's like you know, because
that's a difficult ethicaljudgment to make in terms of,
you know, intervening militarilyin some sort of a civil
conflict.
Shawn (23:55):
Yeah, of you know, intervening militarily in some
sort of a civil conflict?
Yeah, I mean well, massiveimplications.
Yeah, I wish they would levelup a little quicker.
I understand that our allies,especially European, canadian,
they've really built theirdemocracies around this idea of
the allies that we have and therole that the United States
plays and the institutions andthe norms and the values that we
(24:16):
hold, and so they're stillplaying that game.
But I wish they'd kind of levelup a bit faster and recognize
that, like the tariff thing,trump may agree to like 15
percent tariffs, but as soon ashe wants you something from you,
policy wise, he's going tothreaten that again, and so to
me it's like just recognize thatthat's going to happen.
Dr. Benesh (24:34):
Yeah, that's the whole.
I mean, that's the whole.
Reason why we want the rule oflaw is so you can rely on what a
leader says, or a threat thatthey make, or whatever, and he's
just like running amok on that.
Shawn (24:45):
Yeah, and right now I feel like our allies have an
opportunity to tell their peoplelook, this is going to hurt,
but here's here's the foil forit.
You know, hurt, but here'shere's the foil for it, you know
.
But like constantly trying toappease him, I think, eventually
, my fear is that their ownpopulations are going to be
upset, get upset with them forthe way that they're handling
this, and that could enable therise of the far right in those
(25:06):
countries well, and they'realready ascendant right I mean
it's not like we're the onlycountry that has you know shades
of authoritarianism.
No, Italy, Netherlands, the UKflirted with it, but then also
France, Spain, Austria.
Yeah.
Dr. Benesh (25:25):
I mean it's something that's happening, it's
not a one-off kind of thing.
What is it I mean?
Is it racism across the board?
Shawn (25:35):
I honestly don't know.
A lot of people say, well, thisis about immigration and
populism that's kind of rootedin a xenophobia, and I think
these things are all true, but Ithink there's something deeper
and more psychological about it,Like what?
I don't know if it's just power.
Dr. Benesh (25:52):
Is it money?
Is that the bottom line driverof Donald Trump?
Shawn (25:58):
I don't know, because when we talk about money, I
think the people that reallycare, really really care about
vast amounts of wealth and moneyand how it moves, are like
these tech bros, elon Musk, butI think, like your average
citizen, I think they say thingslike yeah, I'm noticing that
prices are rising, that's whyI'm voting for Trump, right, but
as soon as Trump's in officeand prices are still rising, it
(26:22):
doesn't bother them.
Dr. Benesh (26:24):
No, it's not the vote.
The voters I'm not saying thevoters are motivated by money.
The voters, I think, are racist.
Sorry, I think it's.
Shawn (26:33):
I'm asking about Trump.
Dr. Benesh (26:38):
Like you know, he doesn't.
I didn't feel like in his firstterm, especially that he
particularly wanted the job,Right yeah, and so I felt like
there had to be some othermotivator and I feel like for
him everything is money,Although I think he likes power
obviously.
Shawn (26:57):
Yeah.
Dr. Benesh (26:58):
And young women, sorry.
Shawn (27:00):
There's something just so gross about the United States
right now.
Dr. Benesh (27:03):
Something.
Shawn (27:04):
Yeah, what if somebody were to say, like history will
look back on this period of timeand they won't be able to
mention Trump without mentioningHitler, or Hitler without
mentioning Trump?
Dr. Benesh (27:14):
I mean, I guess it depends on what he does.
I mean, Shawn, it's only beeneight months.
Shawn (27:19):
I know that's the scary part.
I was actually thinking aboutthat this morning.
Okay, we're going to get to apoint where, like, okay, we're
25% of the way through, maybeRight, but look what he's done
already.
Dr. Benesh (27:30):
I know, but like he hasn't well, he has killed
people through that ridiculousaction he took on USAID.
Shawn (27:38):
Yeah.
Dr. Benesh (27:39):
Which Potentially millions?
Makes me I can't even tell youhow angry and sad I just I don't
even know how to wrap my mindaround it and I don't know how
people can go about their daywhen that's happening.
Again, like I, you know, I feelyou when you're like you know
(28:01):
it is, it's ridiculous.
Like I'm you know, I'm takingon this new job, I'm worrying
about all this paperwork,whatever I'm you know figuring
out with Finn like where he'sgoing to go to college and just
move Molly into a new apartmentshe's got her first real job and
like all these things and I'mlike but like Gaza is starving.
Shawn (28:19):
Literally.
Dr. Benesh (28:20):
Like.
What am I like?
What does any of this stuffmatter if we can't even do
anything to make our stupidpresident send food to starving
people?
Shawn (28:31):
And destroy it instead of share it.
There's something it's not justcynical, it's to me.
It's not just cynical, it's tome, it's evil, it is the
definition of evil.
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Benesh (28:40):
And it's not much different than killing people
directly.
Shawn (28:45):
Yeah, yeah, especially when you know that's what's
happening and you're doing itdeliberately.
Dr. Benesh (28:49):
It's one step different, right yeah yeah.
It's one.
You know, it's one degreedifferent.
Shawn (28:54):
And they're even normalizing that.
When you know they'reconfronted with people that have
died in ICE custody or peoplethat have had heart attacks
while being arrested, theresponse from the administration
is well, people die all thetime.
Dr. Benesh (29:06):
Yeah, hey.
So in your field of study, howdo you feel about the courts
these days?
Well, they took the case of, orthey have the opportunity right
to take the case of, gaymarriage, so that's great
everyone's like oh, this is this, this case is such, it's so bad
on the merits they won't eventake it.
Shawn (29:25):
And I'm, like we, sure about that why would you say
that?
Dr. Benesh (29:29):
yeah yeah, I don't, I oscillate between I.
There are some justices and Ithink I've said this to you
before some justices who I justthink live in a different world.
Shawn (29:42):
Alito Thomas.
Dr. Benesh (29:44):
No, they're evil.
Oh okay, I thought that's theother world you were talking
about.
No, like I feel like RobertsBarrett Kavanaugh to some degree
Gorsuch.
I feel like they just don'tlive in our reality.
They don't understand themoment that they're making
(30:06):
decisions in, and they aremaking decisions as if
everything is OK and normal.
And so I see some of theirdecisions and I'm like, okay,
you could defend this decisionusing legal analysis and tools
and interpretive strategies andphilosophies if it weren't the
(30:27):
case that this was the Trumpadministration and they don't
recognize a distinction.
Thomas and Alito are gone.
There's no hope for them, but,like these four, I feel like are
not gone.
They just don't understand themoment, and so I don't know if
that might be something theycould come to understand.
(30:49):
What do you think of that?
Shawn (30:52):
I am a pessimist, Right so you're going to survive.
Well, we'll see, because Poshis an pessimist, right?
So you're going to survive.
Well, I was, we'll see, becausePasha's an optimist.
So I was thinking a lot abouthow a lot of experts have said
things over the years, over thelast couple of years, like
Congress, is fiercely protectiveof its realm of influence, and
so, therefore, they won't.
Dr. Benesh (31:12):
Well, it used to be.
It's not anymore.
Shawn (31:14):
Right, and the courts?
I was told numerous timesyou'll be surprised.
The courts aren't willing toabdicate too much because they
have won a constitutionalresponsibility.
But two, they have a certainsphere of influence that they're
going to want to protect.
And that makes sense if youlive in a logical world.
But I think there's anotherlogic to this, which is what if
(31:35):
they all just agree with themission?
Dr. Benesh (31:41):
Well, that's what I struggle with.
Alito and Thomas agree with themission, no question.
What I wonder is about theother four, and it does appear
to be the case that they mightagree in some respects, because
I think you know the founders,when they established this
system, assumed that each of thethree branches would be at
(32:01):
least some.
You know some semblance ofself-protecting.
You know that they would wantto at least be at some level
interested in maintaining theirown influence, and that has
(32:22):
always been the case until now.
I mean because I've never.
I mean it's shocking to me thatCongress would allow an
executive, regardless of howmuch they agree with him, to run
Rofshad over their powers inthe way that Trump has done.
Shawn (32:38):
That's why I think we are living in very unique times and
I don't think anything that wethink should apply, we can
expect will apply to curb this,and I think there's a Venn
diagram.
I think this is where Trump isvery smart.
There's a Venn diagram of whathe cares about and what he knows
conservatives care about, and Ithink what he does is he plays
(33:01):
in their sandbox in such a waywhere he takes a lot of power
from them but uses it to givethem what they want, and so
their options are get what wewant and let him do what he
wants, or fight him on this, onsomething we actually want.
Dr. Benesh (33:19):
Yeah.
Shawn (33:20):
If we win, we lose.
We don't get what we want.
Dr. Benesh (33:22):
Whereas the Democrats would definitely fight
him.
You know they would.
Shawn (33:28):
Oh, you mean if they had a Democratic president?
Dr. Benesh (33:31):
Right.
Shawn (33:31):
Yes, yes.
Dr. Benesh (33:32):
Yeah, but you kind of lost me when you said that
Trump was smart.
Shawn (33:36):
So I know.
What do you hope for over thenext couple of years?
Dr. Benesh (33:41):
I hope so.
I think I think where I haveseen some hope is among my
daughter's generation.
Um, I feel like they are moreengaged than the average 18 to
25 demographic.
I'm not, I, I I am assuming ithas something to do with trump,
(34:04):
but I don't know.
But they, uh, that group, Ifeel like.
I feel like they're coming inat the perfect time because I
think I think my generation, ourgeneration, are we in the same
generation?
Probably?
yeah yeah, yeah um, I feel likewe maybe went too far with the
(34:25):
you know the very carefullanguage, and the you know
adamant inclusion and theprogressive whatever, and we
alienated a lot of people forthings that they maybe agree
with.
They just didn't agree with howmilitant we were, and I feel
(34:48):
like these kids have thosesensibilities, but they also
understand that there's a way toadvance them without being as
in your face, as maybe our groupthought we had to be, and I
think that has the potential tobring people on board that
(35:09):
haven't been on board and mightoffer some glimpse of
possibility.
Shawn (35:16):
Well, I'll raise a glass to that.
I do agree, though.
I was also in spaces sometimeswhere I'm hesitant sometimes,
because I feel like in momentslike this it's like you're in or
you're out, and so I want to bereally careful about giving an
inch to the whateverconservative movement is right
now.
But I have I definitely was inspaces sometimes where I felt
(35:38):
like progressives were justunforgiving of somebody
accidentally using the wrongpronouns or mispronouncing a
foreign name or something orstruggling with understanding
things.
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Benesh (35:52):
No, and they weren't .
It's not like they were beinghostile, it was just it was so
far beyond their experience thatthey, you know, you have to
understand.
It's going to take people timeand I think maybe we weren't
giving people time.
Shawn (36:05):
I agree.
That being said, I do think weall have agency and at some
point you're choosing light ordarkness.
Dr. Benesh (36:13):
No doubt I mean, and like I don't understand why
anyone cares what other peopleyou know want to do in spaces
that are private, you know, andI don't understand why people
you know think that people are,you know, less than or more than
based on who they love or howthey live, you know.
(36:34):
I mean that I don't understandthat perception, especially from
you.
Know, the thing that I thinkmakes me the craziest about this
whole timeline is that,especially from you.
Know, the thing that I thinkmakes me the craziest about this
whole timeline is that you knowthe big government people are
supposed to be the liberals andlike these conservatives are
like everywhere.
Shawn (36:54):
Yeah, also, it's weird to be the one that's like well
states rights.
Dr. Benesh (36:59):
I know Now, I want states rights.
I also want a constitutionalconvention.
Yeah, yeah.
Shawn (37:03):
Yeah, and you can't want that, I know Now.
I want states' rights.
I also want a constitutionalconvention.
Dr. Benesh (37:06):
Yeah, yep, yep, and you can't want that.
Shawn (37:07):
I know, I know.
Dr. Benesh (37:09):
Yes, you know how bad that will be.
Shawn (37:11):
Oh yeah, right now it would be terrible and I also
don't want to.
I do and I don't want toredistrict ourselves into
corners.
I know I don't want to live inthat America, but I also feel
like I don't want to live in theAmerica where the only ones
doing it are Republicans.
Dr. Benesh (37:26):
I know.
Shawn (37:27):
So it's just the reality is I just don't want to live
here.
Dr. Benesh (37:30):
I, yeah, I mean, I understand that feeling.
I also just think it's.
You know, it's a beautifulcountry.
The wrong people run for officeShawn.
Well it's not going to get anybetter.
It will, it could.
Shawn (37:45):
You know, what I really have hope for is that Ohio,
maine and North Carolina grow upa little in the next election
and elect Democratic senators.
That would make us 50-50.
And, like right now,republicans are targeting like
Minnesota, like that's not agreat map for them.
Dr. Benesh (38:06):
No, but Minnesota was a lot closer than it's ever
been.
Shawn (38:09):
New York was too.
Dr. Benesh (38:11):
And Wisconsin drives me crazy.
I guess we'll see.
We need more parties.
Probably Probably Elon Muskwill save us that guy.
Shawn (38:20):
I actually do believe that we need more parties.
Dr. Benesh (38:23):
Oh, we for sure do.
Shawn (38:25):
It can't just be the crazy nut job starting parties.
Dr. Benesh (38:28):
Yes, we for sure do, because no one likes the
Democrats or the Republicans,and I think we can all agree on
that.
Shawn (38:34):
Yeah, okay, for the final time, what's something
interesting you've been reading,watching, listening to or doing
lately?
Dr. Benesh (38:42):
Oh God, all I've been doing is this onboarding
for this new job.
Let me think the Bear oh do youlike?
It, oh God I love that show?
Shawn (38:54):
Oh, I do not.
But tell me, go ahead, is it?
Dr. Benesh (38:56):
too chaotic for you, yes, yes.
Oh, I love the chaos.
I think it's hilarious and Ilove the writing and I love the
chaos.
I think it's hilarious and Ilove the writing and I love the
characters and I love cooking.
I love cooking shows anyway, oh, I just eat that family drama
right up.
Shawn (39:10):
Oh wow.
I watched one episode and I waslike, if this is like, I can't
do it.
Dr. Benesh (39:14):
Oh, and some of them are way worse.
Did you watch the first one?
Like the pilot?
Yes, oh God, if you could everstand to invest in it.
Um, wait till you get to thechristmas episode.
Is that the one with the mom?
Shawn (39:29):
yes, okay, yeah, I've heard a lot about that one oh, I
love that show shawn.
Dr. Benesh (39:34):
Is it a comedy?
No, god, no, I don't know whyit's in the comedy category.
That's crazy yeah I mean thereare funny things about it, sure,
but like I mean there's likeall kinds of mental health
issues, mm-hmm, you know, tonsof family drama, but like so
much love, it's just, oh, it'ssuch a good show.
Shawn (39:58):
Well, that might be part of the reason I don't.
I didn't like it is because Iwas really like what's the fun?
Is this?
What kids?
Dr. Benesh (40:04):
find funny.
No, no, no, it's not a comedy.
I would never categorize it asa comedy.
Shawn (40:10):
All right, dr Benesh, thank you for contributing over
the last almost four years.
I appreciate it and of coursewe'll stay in touch, but nobody
else listening will.
Dr. Benesh (40:22):
It's been super fun and then that's good for the
audience because they won't haveto listen to me giggle all the
time.
Shawn (40:29):
It's what added to it.
It's the only thing of value.
Dr. Benesh (40:36):
Let's just have a podcast with Sara Giggling.
Shawn (40:45):
I guess the final thing I'd like to say is that, like
many of you, I don't know whatto do in this moment.
Democracy has failed.
In the United States we arestaring down the throat of
authoritarianism and I don'tknow how to respond.
There is a collective actionproblem.
Know how to respond?
There is a collective actionproblem.
It takes all of usdemonstrating, boycotting,
hurting, frankly, to really makea difference, to disrupt the
(41:08):
chain of events.
But we're all afraid and orangry and or self-interested.
I can't tell you how often I'veheard from my progressive
friends.
Well, this isn't reallyaffecting me right now, so I'm
just going to keep my head down,and I guess we're all aware,
theoretically, that burying ourheads in the sand is not a
solution to authoritarianism.
(41:29):
But in practice we areexperiencing what it must have
been like for society, forfamilies, for individuals, in
the early days of Nazi Germany,when Hitler consolidated power,
increased pressure, cracked downon undesirable people.
It was probably easier to justkeep their heads down and hope
(41:49):
that it wouldn't impact them atfirst anyway.
It's easy to scorn thatmentality, but living through
this moment in the United States, I guess I'm beginning to
understand it.
But I'm not comfortable with it.
So I want to spend some timethinking about how to counter
authoritarianism effectively,how to implement strategies to
(42:09):
this effect and how to rebuildAmerica.
And maybe we shouldn't belooking to Nazi Germany to help
us understand this moment, butrather the founding parents and
the ways in which theygalvanized a diverse public to
throw off the yoke ofauthoritarianism and build
something more free and moredemocratic, and also learn from
(42:30):
the mistakes they made, so thatwhatever we build next isn't
susceptible to bad actors likeDonald Trump and the current
version of the GOP.
I'm interested in hearing frompeople with ideas about this.
These are the people I want tosee on TV and hear on podcasts
and receive emails from, andwhen I next contribute to the
(42:51):
discourse, I want to be doing sofrom a place of construction
and functional action that canbe taken to build a better
democracy.
So stay tuned.
All right, this has been DeepDive.
Chat soon, folks.
Thank you, thank you.
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