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August 17, 2025 43 mins

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The invisible chain that follows every American abroad isn't nostalgia—it's the IRS. Unlike citizens of virtually every other nation, Americans must file tax returns no matter where they build their lives, creating a bureaucratic burden that turns paradise into paperwork.

This final episode of Leaving America dives deep into the unique tax situation facing U.S. citizens abroad. We explore the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion that shields most expats from actually paying U.S. taxes, but doesn't protect them from the annual filing requirement. We unpack FATCA—the law that turned Americans into toxic banking clients by forcing foreign financial institutions to report directly to the IRS or face severe penalties. Many expats now pay thousands to accountants just to file zero-balance returns.

For some, this perpetual tether becomes too much to bear, leading to citizenship renunciation—the ultimate step in cutting ties with America. We walk through this process step by step: the $2,350 fee, the embassy appointment, the potential "exit tax" for higher-net-worth individuals, and what happens to Social Security and Medicare benefits afterward. Is freedom from IRS paperwork worth giving up your blue passport?

Throughout the episode, experts like Tim Marting from Citizen Remote, David Lesperance from Lesperance Associates, Adrian Leeds from House Hunters International, and Basil Mohr-Elzeki from Henley & Partners offer insights on navigating these complex waters. We close with reflections from expats who've found their homes abroad, whether they've kept their U.S. citizenship or decided to let it go.

Featuring:

Tim Marting

David Lesperance

Basil Mohr-Elzeki

Matt Wilson

Karen McCann

Richard McColl

Tim Leffell

Adrian Leeds

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Music:
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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tim Marting (00:04):
Citizen Remote is a global mobility company.
In essence, we help with visas,taxes, accommodation, insurance
.
We also have a social community.
We have over 20,000 members.
Our big thing is understandingthe complexity within visas.
So obviously we do a lot ofeverything, but right now we're

(00:25):
really niching down on helpingpeople with visas because that's
the first part of the processthat people encounter when
relocating abroad.
Obviously, the next year you'regoing to have to do taxes, so
you can use us for that.
You're going to have to getinsurance up front, so you can
use us for that.
But visas is quite complex andwe essentially have immigration
teams on the ground in over 35different countries and we're

(00:49):
growing that number every day.

Shawn Fettig (01:02):
Welcome to Leaving America, the podcast where we
unpack the fine print of lifeabroad, the clauses you didn't
read before you packed your bags.
In today's episode our finalepisode of this series we're
focusing on the one topic thatunites almost every American
living overseas the tax system.

(01:22):
Not how much you pay, though,that matters, but the fact that
the United States insists onhearing from you every single
year, no matter where you live,what you earn or whether you've
set foot on US soil.
Since Carter was in office,most countries keep it simple If
you don't live there, they stoptaxing you Canada, france,

(01:45):
australia, even tax-heavyDenmark lets go when you move on
.
But the US, we're special.
We tax based on citizenship,not residency.
Leave Kansas for Kathmandu andthe IRS will still expect a
postcard in the form of Form1040 every single year.
And the IRS doesn't just wantto know what you made.

(02:05):
They want to know where youbank, what you own and how much
you're worth.
Thanks to FATCA, the 2010 lawthat turned foreign banks into
unpaid IRS informants, youraccounts abroad are often
reported automatically.
Some banks comply.
Others simply refuse to dealwith Americans at all, which

(02:26):
means that, while your newcountry might welcome you, your
local bank manager might look atyour US passport like it's
radioactive.
This is the reality forAmericans abroad.
You need to file annual taxreturns even if you owe nothing.
You have to navigate exclusions, credits and reporting rules so
convoluted you probably need aprofessional just to break even

(02:49):
and you could face penaltiesthat can wipe out savings if you
miss a single form, forms thatdon't even exist in most
countries' systems.
For some, this is just theprice of the blue passport, for
others it's a deal-breaker.
And that's where the othersubject for today's episode
comes in Renunciation, thenuclear option, the I'm done

(03:11):
button.
The only way to guarantee thatthe IRS stops calling is to hand
in the passport entirely.
We're going to walk through bothworlds today.
First, the mechanics andburdens of taxation as an
American abroad, what you're onthe hook for, how to stay
compliant and why it's soexhausting, but also, with the

(03:31):
help of some experts, you'llhear from today how to navigate
it without losing too much sleep.
Then the renunciation processwhat it costs, how it works and
what you lose along with yourcitizenship.
I'm your host, shawn C Fettig,and if you've ever thought,
surely they won't chase meacross borders for taxes.
You've clearly never met the USgovernment and you're

(03:53):
absolutely in the right place Tostay updated on the latest
episodes.
Follow, like and share LeavingAmerica on the Deep Dive with
shawn podcast feed.
Wherever you get your podcasts,and if you've concluded that
the US government can't betrusted with your future and
you're weighing the pros andcons of swapping your blue
passport for something withfewer tax forms, email us at

(04:16):
deepdivewithshawn at gmailcom.
All right, pack your bags.
This is Leaving America.
All right, pack your bags.
This is Leaving America.

Tim Marting (04:26):
Essentially, what you're going to have to do is
you're going to always have tofile in the US, no matter what.
So there is that, and that'snot fun.
A lot of people around theworld don't have to deal with
that, but, being an Americanmyself, I've always had to deal
with it.
But the thing is is it reallyisn't that complex.
The only thing you're going tohave to do is find a local
accountant tax agent in thecountry in which you're living

(04:48):
and you have to file taxes inthat country.
If you've lived in that countryfor most countries for over 183
days a year, so a majority ofthe year that essentially makes
you a tax resident in thatcountry, so you'll have to file
at year-end taxes in thatcountry.
So let's just use Spain for anexample.
When you're living in Spain,after you've lived there for a
majority of the year, you filetaxes in Spain and you also file

(05:10):
taxes in the US, and so the waythat that works is the way I've
done it in the past is you havea tax accountant, you do all of
your income that you made inthe country Even though I was
working from abroad and madeincome from abroad, you still
have to file it with Spain.
You take that tax return andthen submit it to the US.
Most of the time, unless you'rein a special tax regime, you're

(05:35):
going to have to pay more taxesin the country that you're
living abroad.
The US is actually quite strongwith taxes in the sense that
they're lower than mosteverywhere else around the world
.
So when you file that return inthe US, you've already paid the
amount of taxes, unless youdon't have a double taxation
agreement with the US thecountry in which you're living

(05:57):
which then gets a little bitmore complex.
But you're essentially notgoing to have to pay more on
your tax return in the US.
It's essentially paid all yourtaxes in the country in which
you're living abroad.
So the way we help with that is, if you're needing tax to file
your tax return which you willif you live majority of the year

(06:19):
in that country then we canessentially hook you up with the
relevant tax partner in thatcountry.
So for Spain, for example, wehave a tax partner in Spain.
We would hook you up with a taxpartner in Spain.
We do have tax partners in theUS as well, but typically people
will just use the accountantthat they've been using their
whole life in the US.

Shawn Fettig (06:38):
That was Tim Martin, founder of Citizen
Remote, which assists peoplemoving abroad with every aspect
of transitioning, from obtaininga visa to filing taxes,
describing the unique taxsituation that American expats
find themselves in.
If you're an American livingabroad, the tax system is your
shadow.
It doesn't matter if you'vebuilt a new life in Berlin, run

(07:01):
a cafe in Oaxaca or teach yogaon a beach in Bali.
Uncle Sam still wants to knowwhat's going on in your wallet.
And here's the kicker it's notjust your wallet, it's your
spouses, your joint accounts,your pension, your rental
property and, thanks to FATCA,sometimes even your kid's
college savings plan.

(07:21):
The US is one of only twocountries in the world that does
this.
The other, eritrea, charges aflat 2% tax on expats and calls
it a day.
America, in contrast, has builtan entire bureaucratic obstacle
course for anyone who dares tomove away but still hold a
passport.
Every American citizen, nomatter where they live, must

(07:46):
file an annual US tax returnForm 1040, every year without
fail.
You have to report yourworldwide income salary from a
foreign employer, investmentdividends from a French
brokerage, rent from your flatin Lisbon, gains from selling
cryptocurrency on an exchange inSingapore, even if you owe

(08:08):
nothing because of exclusions,credits or treaties you still
have to file, miss a form andthe penalties can be brutal.
This is why so many Americansabroad pay $1,000 to $5,000 a
year to accountants to file $0returns.
The Foreign Earned IncomeExclusion FEIE is the lifesaver

(08:32):
that most Americans livingabroad rely on.
This is the one everyone hearsabout.
In 2025, you can exclude up toabout $126,500 of earned income
from US taxes.
Double that if you're marriedand both working abroad.
That means if you earn $126,500or less abroad in a tax year,

(08:57):
then you will pay no taxes tothe United States on that income
.
But there are catches.
It applies to earned incomeonly, not pensions, not
investment income, not rentalprofits.
You have to prove you liveabroad, either by the physical
presence test 330 days outsidethe US in a 12-month period, or

(09:19):
the bona fide residency testproving deep ongoing ties to
another country.
And, yes, you still file a fulltax return to claim it.
There are also some creditsthat might be helpful.
If you're paying taxes in yournew country, you might offset
your US bill with a foreign taxcredit.
This is great if you livesomewhere like Germany or Japan

(09:41):
where rates are high.
It's less helpful in placeslike Panama or the UAE, where
you might owe little to yourhost country but still be on the
hook in the US.
It also doesn't automaticallyapply to certain income types
capital gains, for instance soyou can still get caught in
double taxation.
The US also has income taxtreaties with over 60 countries.

(10:05):
In theory, these agreements aremeant to prevent you from being
taxed twice on the same income,but in practice they're helpful
, but they're not a magic wand.
Tax treaties can reduce oreliminate US withholding taxes
on certain income, like pensions, dividends or royalties, and
they can clarify which countrygets to tax specific income

(10:27):
types, and they sometimes allowyou to claim extra deductions or
credits.
But there is fine printTreaties don't override the
requirement to file a US taxreturn every year, and that's
probably the main takeaway hereyou have to file a tax return
even if you made nothing in yournew country.
Also, some treaty provisionsdon't apply to all income types.

(10:49):
For example, a treaty mightprotect your pension from double
taxation but still leave yourcapital gains fully exposed, and
you have to actively claimtreaty benefits, often by filing
Form 8833 to disclose yourposition to the IRS.
Skip that step and the treatydoesn't automatically save you,

(11:10):
and perhaps most frustrating forAmericans abroad.
Tax treaties rarely address thereporting requirements that
cause the biggest headaches.
Fatca, fbar and otherinformation disclosures still
apply no matter what, and we'lltalk about that next.
If you live in a country withouta treaty, like much of South
America or parts of SoutheastAsia, you'll rely entirely on

(11:34):
the foreign earned incomeexclusion and foreign tax
credits for relief.
So I've mentioned FATCA a fewtimes.
Let's talk about it.
The Foreign Account TaxCompliance Act was passed in
2010 to catch offshore taxcheats.
In reality, it turned Americansabroad into toxic clients.
Fatca forces foreign banks toreport American accounts

(11:57):
directly to the IRS or facesteep penalties on US
transactions.
Many banks comply.
Some refuse to open accountsfor Americans at all.
The fallout from FATCA isexpats being denied mortgages in
their new countries orlong-standing investment
accounts being shut down withlittle notice and difficulty

(12:18):
opening even basic checkingaccounts in certain countries.
If you have foreign assetsabove certain thresholds, you
also have to report themyourself via Form 8938, on top
of everything the bank alreadysends.
David Lesperance, founder ofLesperance Associates and
leading global expert on tax andimmigration processes, explains

(12:40):
this in some greater detailexplains this in some greater
detail.

David Lesperance (12:48):
Americans are different than everybody else
because of the citizenship-basedtaxation and a regime called
FATCA, which was a beefing up ofsomething a prior regime called
the Qualified IntermediaryRegime, and so if you're a
foreign financial institutionwhether that's a bank or a
brokerage or accommodationthereof you need to do more

(13:12):
paperwork for an American thanyou would for a Kiwi or a
Canadian or a Brit or an Aussie.
But you can certainly do that.
So it's completely legal tohave bank accounts, or Americans
have bank accounts outside ofthe United States.
They have reportingrequirements, which is that FBAR
, the Foreign Bank AccountReport that is triggered if
there is more than $10,000 thatflows through that account

(13:32):
within a year.
But that's simply a filing.
If that account made money, hada dividend, for example, there
would be US tax liability onthat, because the foreign
financial institutions sign aform called have you signed a
form called the W-9, which givesthat financial institution the
ability to report, withhold andremit to the US on any income or

(13:56):
capital gain on that in thataccount, and so you will have US
tax liability.
But, as I mentioned, you mayalso have tax liability in
another jurisdiction, so youwill report it and if you have
income that's generated at asufficient amount, you'll pay US
tax on that or get creditedbecause you have paid tax on
that same account in anotherjurisdiction.

Shawn Fettig (14:27):
If the total balance of all your foreign
accounts exceeds $10,000 at anypoint in the year, you must file
an FBAR.
This is separate from your taxreturn.
Miss it and penalties can runinto five figures or up to 50%
of the account balance if theIRS thinks you are willfully
ignoring the rules.
This covers personal accounts,business accounts, joint
accounts with non-US spouses andeven accounts you can sign for

(14:48):
but don't own.
It's not just about money.
This system creates a constantlow-level anxiety for many
Americans abroad.
Every business, venture,investment or financial decision
comes with the question howwill this play with the IRS?
And here's the irony the UScollects very little tax revenue

(15:09):
from most Americans overseas.
Many owe nothing.
The system isn't about revenue.
It's about control andcompliance, which is why,
eventually, some people stoptrying to navigate the maze and
start looking for the exit.
And that's where renunciationcomes in.
At some point, after filingyour 10th straight $0 tax return

(15:31):
from abroad, paying thousandsfor the privilege and watching
your local bank treat you likeyou just announced you run a
cryptocurrency pyramid scheme,the thought creeps in.
What if I just ended thispyramid scheme?
The thought creeps in.
What if I just ended this?
Renunciation isn't casual.
You can't do it on a whim, likeswitching cell phone providers.
It's a deliberate,bureaucratically slow and

(15:52):
financially inconvenient process, but for some people it's the
only way to make the USgovernment finally let go.
Taxes are almost always thefirst domino Citizenship-based
taxation, fatca reporting, fbarpenalties it's death by a
thousand forms.
Even if you're not wealthy, theconstant compliance grind can

(16:14):
make the blue passport feel morelike a shackle than a privilege
.
But there are other drivers.
Some people renounce becausethey literally can't get a
mortgage or investment accountwhere they live.
Also, dual citizenship laws.
Certain countries Singapore andAustria make you choose one or
the other.
And then philosophy.

(16:36):
A smaller group seesrenunciation as a statement.
The US no longer reflects theirvalues and they want to fully
commit to the country they nowcall home In 2023,.
Over 3,200 Americans officiallywalked away.
That's not a mass exodus, butit's a lot more than before
FATCA, when the number barelybroke.

(16:57):
500 in a typical year.
And those are just the ones whofollow through.
Many more hover in limbo,googling embassy wait times and
second passport options.
So here's how it works.
You cannot renounce inside theUnited States.
The State Department insistsyou show up in person at a US
embassy or consulate abroad,passport in hand and make it

(17:21):
official.
Before you even book anappointment, you must already be
a citizen of another country.
This is non-negotiable.
Whether you got it throughancestry, naturalization or an
investment program.
You need that second passportready to flash.
The appointment itself can beone session or two, depending on
the embassy.

(17:41):
Either way, expect a securityscreening that feels more
intense than your lastinternational flight a consular
officer making sure you're notbeing coerced and that you
understand exactly what you'regiving up and reading and
signing the oath of renunciation.
In front of that officer.
Under oath, some people cry,some feel nothing, some people
cry, some feel nothing.

(18:01):
Some head straight to a bar andyou have to pay for it $2,350.
By far the highest renunciationfee in the world.
Most countries charge little ornothing.
The US raised it from $450 in2014, claiming administration
costs.
Critics call it a deterrent.

(18:23):
Either way, you'll pay it,usually right there at the
embassy.
Once you've sworn the oath andpaid the fee, your case goes to
Washington DC for final approvaland when that's done, you
receive your Certificate of Lossof Nationality, the single
piece of paper proving you areno longer American.
You'll need it for future taxfilings, visa applications and

(18:45):
banking.
From that moment, you'reofficially out.
Well, except for one last datewith the IRS.
And this is where things getmore interesting and potentially
expensive, because the US hasone final mechanism to make sure
they get their pound of flesh.
So you've signed the oath,handed over the passport and
paid $2,350 for the privilege ofno longer being an American.

(19:09):
You might think the IRS wouldsend you on your way with a
handshake and a good luck, butno.
Instead, they've got one lasttrick, the exit tax, which is
exactly what it sounds like.
It's the IRS equivalent ofrummaging through your suitcase
on the way out to make sureyou're not sneaking away with
anything untaxed.

(19:30):
But not everyone pays the exittax.
First, the IRS decides whetheryou qualify as a covered
expatriate.
This label is less aboutglamour and more about whether
they can squeeze you one lasttime.
About glamour and more aboutwhether they can squeeze you one
last time.
You're considered covered.
If you meet any of these, youraverage annual US income tax
bill over the last five years isover roughly $200,000.

(19:53):
That's a 2025 figure.
That's tax owed, not yourincome and or your net worth is
$2 million or more, countingeverything you own anywhere in
the world House, investments,retirement accounts, art crypto,
the vintage guitar you plan tosell someday, and or you haven't
filed US taxes for the lastfive years and can't certify

(20:16):
that you've been fully compliant.
This is the trap that catches alot of otherwise middle-class
expats.
If you meet even one of thesecongratulations, you're covered,
which means you're going to payan exit tax.
This is Basil Mohr-Elzeki,managing partner at Henley
Partners, who specializes inhelping people obtain residence

(20:37):
and citizenship by investment,explaining how one's personal
assets and wealth can impactexit tax and play into a
decision to renounce citizenship.

Basil Mohr-Elzeki (20:50):
Sometimes what Americans do is, if they're
entrepreneurs and they have alarge liquidity event, they may
want to consider analyzing theirexit tax and renouncing their
US citizenship, if it's theirgoal and if it's financially
beneficial for them.
So sometimes we'll make anintroduction to a lawyer that
would do an exit tax analysis tosee if it's worth it
financially for them to renouncetheir US citizenship and obtain

(21:13):
another one.
Now they can't renounce theircitizenship without obtaining
another one, so usually it's thecitizenship that needs to be
obtained the alternative beforethey're able to renounce your US
.
So sometimes there can besituations at a large scale that
can benefit applicants but Iwould say 9.5 times out of 10,
this doesn't happen just becausethe exit tax can be quite

(21:35):
strict and rigorous.

Shawn Fettig (21:40):
The exit tax works like this the IRS imagines you
sold every asset you own the daybefore.
You renounced Stocks, soldHouse, sold, business liquidated
Then they tax you on theimaginary gains.
You do get a one-time exclusion, about $821,000 in 2025.

(22:01):
That's the portion of gainsthey ignore before calculating
the tax bill.
After that, the standardcapital gains rates apply.
So let's say you own a home inSpain, you have US retirement
accounts and you haveinvestments, and we can imagine
that your gains might totalsomething around $900,000.
Subtract the $821,000 exclusionand you owe tax on the

(22:26):
remaining $79,000, probablysomewhere between $10,000 and
$15,000.
Sounds simple enough until youfactor in certain rules for
pensions, trusts and jointlyowned property.
This is where the IRS can getcreative.
Owned property this is wherethe IRS can get creative.

(22:46):
And here's a fun add-on Ifyou're a covered expatriate and
you give a US citizen a big giftor inheritance later, they
might owea 40% tax on it.
So even after you're gone, yourexit can still reach back and
complicate your family'sfinances, even if you're not
rich.
The quickest way to land incovered territory and owe an
exit tax is failing thefive-year compliance test.

(23:08):
You must have filed completeand correct US tax returns for
the five years before yourenounce no gaps.
No, I didn't think I had tofile.
If you can't sign Form 8854,the IRS's expatriation
information statement underpenalty of perjury, saying
you've been compliant, you'recovered by default.

(23:30):
And yes, form 8854 is as muchfun as it sounds.
But people who plan thiscarefully, sometimes a year or
more in advance, can reduce oreven avoid the exit tax.
That might mean gettingcompliant with back filings
before starting the renunciationprocess, or shifting or
liquidating certain assets ortiming the renunciation for a

(23:52):
year when your gains or taxliability will be lower.
But if you go in cold without atax lawyer or expat CPA who's
done this before, you'rebasically playing financial
Jenga with the IRS.
Once you've cleared the exittax hurdle or confirmed you're
not covered, you're free.
Except for one last questionwhat happens to the benefits

(24:13):
you've spent a lifetime payinginto, like Social Security and
Medicare?
So let's start with the onemost people care about, because,
let's face it, groceries aren'tgetting cheaper anywhere.
Social security Renouncing yourcitizenship doesn't
automatically cut you off fromsocial security.
If you've worked at least 10years in the US and paid into

(24:34):
the system, you've earned thosebenefits.
You can still get them abroadwith conditions when you live
matters.
If you're in a country with aUS tax treaty, like Canada, the
UK, germany or Australia, youcan usually receive full
payments.
If you're not, the US maywithhold about 25% of your

(24:56):
benefit.
That's not small, especially ifyour retirement budget is tight
.
If you split your careerbetween the US and another
country, a totalizationagreement can combine your work
credits so you qualify forbenefits in one or both systems.
So imagine you worked eightyears in the US and seven in
France Separately.

(25:17):
That's not enough for fullretirement benefits in either
country Together.
Thanks to the agreement, youmay qualify in both.
It's worth checking whetheryour future or current home
country has one of theseagreements.
They can also help you avoidpaying Social Security taxes
twice if you work abroad beforerenouncing.

(25:37):
Even if you are eligible,getting Social Security payments
abroad isn't alwaysfriction-free.
You may have to fill outperiodic forms proving you're
alive really and keep an accountin a bank that can accept US
government direct deposits.
Some countries don't have themand notify the Social Security
Administration of any addresschanges promptly or risk

(25:59):
suspended payments.
Okay, medicare.
Here's where the optimism dies.
Medicare doesn't follow youabroad, even if you qualify
through your US work history.
It won't pay for hospital stays, doctor visits or prescriptions
outside the country, except forrare emergencies near US
borders.
If you renounce, you may not beable to keep Medicare coverage

(26:22):
at all.
And if you skip enrolling whenyou're first eligible usually at
65, but later move back to theUS, you could face steep
permanent penalties.
So this forces a choice Keeppaying Part B premiums while
living abroad, just in case youreturn someday, or drop it, save

(26:43):
the money and commit to yournew country's health care system
.
Either way, it's a decision youshould make before you sign
that oath of renunciation, notafter Other things you should
consider.
Renunciation isn't just aboutbenefits, it's about rights.
You won't get back.
So voting in US elections, nomore Entering the US freely.

(27:05):
You'll now need a visa like anyother foreign national
Petitioning to bring relativesto the US under family
immigration rules and access tocertain government jobs, grants
and contracts.
You can still visit, but yourvisa application can be denied,
and in today's America that'sincreasingly likely.
And no, there's no undo button.

(27:28):
Once you renounce, you're out.
So, yes, you can still collectsome benefits, but you're also
stepping away from a safety netyou might have assumed would
always be there, which meansrenunciation isn't just a tax
decision.
It's a long-term life decision,and that's where we'll wrap
this episode and this seriesWith the reality check of what

(27:49):
it truly means to walk away andwhy, for some, it's worth it
anyway.
When you strip away thepaperwork, the legal jargon and
the forms with names likeDS-4080, renouncing US
citizenship comes down to onequestion Do you want out badly
enough to pay the pricefinancially, bureaucratically

(28:10):
and personally?
Because the truth is, for mostpeople this starts with taxes,
the filings, the forms, theendless reporting, the sense
that, no matter how far you move, the IRS is always leaning over
your shoulder.
That's the friction that pushespeople toward the embassy door.
But once you step inside, it'sno longer about taxes, it's

(28:33):
about finality.
Handing in the passport meansmore than ending your annual
date with Form 1040.
It's cutting the last legal tieto the country you were born
into or chose once upon a time.
It's deciding that your realhome, your political life and
your financial life are allsomewhere else.
Now, for some that's freedom.

(28:54):
The relief is instant.
For others, it's a bittersweetexchange, gaining clarity in one
part of life while losingoptions in another.
And for many, the complexityand cost mean they'll keep one
foot in each world, filing everyyear, sighing over the
absurdity and getting on withtheir lives.
Renunciation isn't the rightmove for everyone, but if you're

(29:19):
living abroad dreading taxseason like it's an annual audit
of your soul it's worthunderstanding what the exit
button really does, because it'snot a fantasy, it's a real
legal option and more people aretaking it.
If you do it, you'll neverforget the moment you hand over
that passport, not because it'semotional though it might be,

(29:41):
but because it's the day youturned your relationship with
America from complicated toofficially over.
So, whether you stay, leave orhover in between, just make sure
you're the one making thechoice, not the system.
I'm going to leave you with somethoughts from the experts and
expats that have contributed tothis series over the past 12

(30:03):
weeks about what has motivatedthem to move, what they love
about where they live and howthey approach the idea of living
abroad.
First, you'll hear from MattWilson, co-founder of Under 30
Experiences, about how hegradually evolved from being a
short-term traveler to an expat.
Then Karen McCann, author andcreator of the blog Enjoy Living

(30:27):
Abroad, about discovering Spainand why she fell in love with
it.
Then Richard McCall, journalistand host of the Columbia
Calling podcast about hispermanent move to Colombia.
Tim Leffel, award-winningauthor and editor of the
Perceptive Travel magazine,about living in Mexico.
Then Tim Marting, founder ofCitizen Remote, who you heard

(30:49):
from at the top of this episode,about what you'll learn
traveling and living abroad.
And finally, adrian Leeds, realestate consultant in France,
featured regularly in HouseHunters International, about the
attitude she embraces.
That has fueled her approach toliving abroad and making
necessary changes based not infear but in living in the moment

(31:11):
.

Matt Wilson (31:16):
When you've never been anywhere.
You want to go to all theplaces.
You just say yes to everything.
And I can remember mybackpacker days where I would
show up in a hostel and someonewould say, okay, I'm going up to
, I'm in Costa Rica, right, andI'm going up to Nicaragua.

(31:37):
I was like, okay, cool, mypassport works there, I'm going
to come.
So we go to Nicaragua, okay,well, first, yeah, you stop off
at the Ometepe volcano, right,and then you get to San Juan del
Sur, right.
And then somebody says, well,I'm going up to Granada.
And so, yeah, so you go toGranada.
And then, okay, we might skipthrough Managua because maybe

(32:02):
it's not so safe, but then we'regoing to Leon, and Leon's
really amazing.
You got to check this place out,and so what I ended up doing
was burning myself out, tryingto keep up that pace, because,
well, if you have a week off ortwo weeks off, sure you can
travel with that and try tocheck the boxes and see as many

(32:24):
places as possible.
And as social media started torise, right, everybody wants to
have their stories, be reallyactive and get lots of pictures
in front of lots of famoustourist destinations, and that's
all well and good, but I wastraveling with my laptop and I
needed stable internetconnection, which at that time

(32:47):
Nicaragua was not the best at,and, um, you know, I needed
actual time to sit and work.
So then I would adjust myschedule to all right, I'm going
to set up shop during the weekand then I will do the actual
traveling, the going from pointA to point B on the weekends,
and then I'll get to my nextlocation, I'll get settled, and

(33:10):
then I'll have that five days togo to the local coffee shop and
work, or have my lunch spot andget to know the wait staff, or
all right, I have my place whereI will go and work out, or I'll
have a place where I'll go fora drink in the evening, and so

(33:32):
you kind of develop that localroutine and that you can do that
, just staying in a week in aplace.
And so I eventually fell inlove with kind of long-term
travel, if you will, and so Idecided, okay, costa Rica, it's
a really amazing place for me.
So first I stayed a month, andthen I stayed for three months,

(33:54):
and then you have to start doingyour border runs and, yeah,
then I was staying six months,so I never actually had to call
my mom and say, hey, move toCosta Rica, although she knew
that I didn't have a residencein New York any longer.
But yeah, I just I fell in lovewith the slow travel pace and I

(34:17):
think it's really interestingthat that trend is coming back
in Gen Z.

Karen McCann (34:25):
Well, I just stumbled across it.
It really wasn't in my gameplan at all.
But about gosh.
25 years ago now, some friendsof ours had a timeshare in
southern Spain and invited us tojoin them there, and we really
didn't have Spain on our radar.
My husband and I we thoughtwell, ok, sure we'll pop in and
visit them.
We were going to Italy to meetup with some other friends.

(34:46):
We went to Spain and we justfell in love with it.
Spain feeds into our movieconcept of Europe.
It still has the gorgeous oldarchitecture and these wonderful
festivals and a lifestyle thatis so different from the
American lifestyle.
You really know you're in aforeign place.
Even now, 25 years later, whenthings have gotten considerably

(35:10):
more modernized and more intothe global way of doing things,
it has such character that's allits own.
So we went back many times forvisits and finally decided that,
since my husband had takenearly retirement, we had this
really flexible schedule.
I'm a writer, so I never knowif I'm working or not.
I sort of always am, always amnot.

(35:30):
So we thought we would live inSeville for a year and get it
out of our system.
That was 25 years ago and we'restill there.

Richard McColl (35:41):
You know what?
Life has been absolutely greatsince moving here in 2007.
Peaks and troughs, as always,but again, that's everywhere and
I would recommend it to anyonewho's a little bit more well.
I think you want to be a littlebit more adventurous, because
Colombia does have itsreputation, it does have its
stigma, but if you're cominghere to do your own thing, to

(36:03):
participate in what I would sayis society not just to be
someone completely isolated fromthe reality in Colombia, but to
actually participate in thecommunity in which you live, the
society in which you want tomove around in then you're going
to really benefit and, I think,grow as a person, because

(36:24):
Colombia has been so divorcedfrom the idea not only of
immigration to Colombia, butalso from international tourism.

Tim Leffel (36:36):
Mexico is just close and easy in terms of air
connections, it's really goodand the food's really good,
which is not true in someCentral American nations, for
instance.
So all of that was part of it.
It's culturally interesting.
It has its own distinct culture, but in the end it was partly

(36:56):
economic and partly justconvenience, because it's so
easy to get back and forth.
But one of the great thingsabout Mexico is you've got so
many choices in terms ofgeography and climate and
whatever.
And we live in Guanajuato,which is about 6,000 feet in
altitude and 6,500 depending onwhere you are in the hills, but

(37:16):
it stays pretty nice all year.
You know the weather's sunny,but it's fairly cool and doesn't
get all that hot, and so it's.
You know, part of all that kindof played into it, but it just
turned out to be this was thebest choice.

Tim Marting (37:34):
I mean there was a massive rise.
I mean I know at Citizen Remotewe saw an insane amount of
traffic and inquiries, I thinkthe day after the election.
So that's a big one forAmericans right now.
But I mean before the election,you know, there were still many
, many people looking torelocate abroad and I think a
lot of people are justinterested in, you know, a

(37:56):
change of pace, experiencing adifferent culture, and that's
why I did it many, many yearsago.
I was just interested personallyand it's a great big world out
there and there's a lot ofbeautiful areas, and I decided,
you know, I can live my wholelife in the US and I have my
family there.
I go visit them all the time.
I love it in the US, but also,you know, you only have one life

(38:18):
, so why not see?
You know, what there is to seein this great big world and
experience different culturesand learn a little bit, and I
have absolutely loved it.
I always say this is that if youdo pursue a life abroad, you're
going to find one of two thingsYou're going to find you
absolutely love it and neverwant to stop, or you're going to

(38:40):
find, okay, maybe I appreciatemy home country a little more
than I thought.
Maybe I took a few things forgranted back home that I really
do like the culture of my homecountry and you didn't realize
that as much withoutexperiencing that time abroad.
And so I think when people areinterested in relocating abroad,
it usually falls into one ofthose categories of they're

(39:02):
adventurous, they want to checkout a new culture, they want to
relocate to a warm area thatisn't, you know, english
speaking or something like that,or maybe they're just fed up
with their current, whether itbe administration or home life,
and so people have a wholedifferent bunch of reasons that
they might want to relocateabroad, and we help with all of

(39:22):
them.

Adrian Leeds (39:27):
Well, I don't live in fear.
I'm not a what-if-this and awhat-if-that person.
I believe that fear is anabsolutely ridiculous emotion
that is based on your thoughtsthat are illusory.
The future never actually comesright.
It's only what you think inyour mind will happen, but isn't

(39:47):
real.
And so as long as you live inthe present moment and you can
really eliminate fear completelyand you deal with your life as
it presents itself, right, Ithink France and Europe is an
amazing place.
As a matter of fact, you seehow they're getting stronger in
order to combat what's happeningin the us with, you know,

(40:10):
donald trump and all of histariffs and other decisions,
where the eu is now having toregroup, get strong, be able to
combat that, and I think that'spositive.
I think that's positive.
I think that's really a plusfactor.

Shawn Fettig (40:35):
Over the course of this series we've walked the
map together.
We've explored the easy escapesof Portugal, spain and Latvia.
We've sipped coffee in Parisiancafes and run cost-of-living
math in New Zealand.
We've peeked into the quietercorners of Costa Rica and the
bustling streets of Vancouver.
We've navigated residencypermits, health care systems,

(40:58):
tax codes and the strange beautyof a culture that isn't our own
.
And now, here at the end, we'velooked at the ultimate decision
cutting the last legal tie tothe United States through
renunciation.
If you've been with me fromepisode one, you know leaving
America was never just a travelguide.
It's been a blueprint forautonomy, for building a life

(41:20):
that works for you wherever youchoose to live it, because in
uncertain times, having optionsisn't just nice, it's necessary.
We've seen how democracieswobble, economies shift,
climates change.
We've talked about designing alife that can flex when the
ground moves, whether that'skeeping dual citizenship in

(41:42):
France, buying a beach bungalowin Dominica or going all-in on a
rural village in the south ofItaly.
Some of you listening will keepone foot in each world a US
passport in one hand, aresidency permit or even
citizenship in the other.
Others will leap completely,cutting that final cord, and
many will land somewhere inbetween, knowing that the door

(42:05):
is open if they ever need tostep through it.
Leaving America isn't aboutrejecting your past.
It's about expanding yourfuture.
It's saying I get to choosewhere my life happens, and in a
time when so much feels out ofour control, that's no small
thing.
If you've been thinking aboutit, even idly, in the recesses
of your mind, you've alreadystarted the process.

(42:27):
The rest is planning, patienceand a willingness to imagine a
different version of your life.
The truth is there's no perfectplace, but there are places
where you will feel more at home, more secure, more yourself,
and those are worth finding.
In uncertain times, hope is aplan, and whether your plan

(42:50):
keeps you here takes you to thejungles of Honduras, an island
in the Philippines, amountaintop in New Zealand, a
side street in Lisbon or a quietcoastal town in Ireland.
The power to make it yours isstill yours.
I want to thank all of myguests that have contributed to
this series.
I want to thank all of thelisteners that have walked this

(43:11):
road with me, and, wherever youland, I hope you make it home.
This has been Leaving America,because sometimes home isn't
where you started.
Thank you.
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