July 13, 2025 • 62 mins
What happens when a three-month vacation accidentally becomes a 15-month immersion into island life? For Heidi and Tony, being stranded in the Philippines during the early pandemic lockdowns wasn't just an inconvenience – it became a transformative lesson in what truly matters.
In this conversation, we discover how a small Philippine island with unreliable electricity, occasional water shortages, and zero Amazon delivery options became a paradise of sorts. The couple shares how they adapted to "island time," where urgency dissolves and community connections take priority over convenience. Rather than feeling deprived by limited resources, they found themselves liberated from the constant pressure of American consumer culture.
"We used to talk about new seasons on Netflix," Tony explains. "When we're on the island, we're excited because mango season is coming, or dragon fruit season, or passion fruit season." This shift from digital consumption to natural cycles reveals just how deeply our relationship with time, food, and community can change when we step away from convenience culture.
Beyond the practical challenges of conducting business from a time zone opposite the US or figuring out how to ship orthodontic supplies to a remote island, Heidi and Tony discovered something more profound – the creative spark that ignites when you can't simply buy a solution. Cooking became a daily challenge with limited ingredients and just two gas burners. Art shifted from digital to hands-on crafts using available materials. Every interaction with neighbors, market vendors, and local families built meaningful connections that sustained them.
Their story raises powerful questions about what we trade for convenience in America. As Heidi notes, "I love island life. I'd take the lack of water, lack of electricity, lack of internet any day over being overwhelmed with choice." Could it be that in gaining instant access to everything, we've lost something essential to human happiness?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Aaron Martin (00:03):
Imagine living in New Zealand with your family.
If that's your destination ofchoice, new Zealand immigration
law is here to help.
How do we do that?
First of all, a deep divediagnosis to ensure that you've
got the right pathway and thepathway of least resistance.
Because, let's face it,crossing international borders
can be a nightmare.
Borders can be a nightmare.
(00:26):
We also look after youthroughout the application
process ensuring that thatsatisfies New Zealand government
visa criteria and managing yourapplication through the
immigration process, dealingwith the complexities and the
issues that might be raised byImmigration New Zealand.
I'm Aaron Martin and I've beenworking in the immigration space
for 28 years, helping peoplesettle successfully in New
Zealand, and I'm supported by ateam which collectively has 62
(00:48):
years of experience in this area.
If you'd like to know moreabout me and my team and how we
can help you, reach out to us onour website, wwwnzilconz.
Shawn (01:07):
Welcome to Leaving America, the podcast for people
who look at rent prices,partisan gridlock and late-stage
capitalism and think maybe it'stime I lived somewhere, not
America.
In this episode, we're headingto a place where the locals will
call you sir or ma'am withunsettling sincerity.
Karaoke is both a pastime and apersonality trait, and the
(01:31):
Wi-Fi may or may not work, butsomeone will absolutely lend you
their hotspot if you ask nicely.
We're going to talk about thePhilippines.
It's one of the mostEnglish-friendly,
foreigner-welcoming andculturally warm countries you
could possibly land in, and yetit's oddly overlooked by many
would-be expats and digitalnomads.
(01:52):
On last week's episode, we duginto the visa options, the cost
of living and the culture in thePhilippines.
Today, my husband, pavel, isback and we're going to talk to
two of our closest friends,heidi and Tony, who got stranded
in the Philippines during thepandemic, turning a three-month
trip into a 15-month stay, aboutwhat they love about the
(02:15):
country, what you truly need tostart a new life somewhere, and
how life on an isolated islandstacks up against the American
rat race.
Hey Pavel, hi Shawn.
So today we're going to betalking with some of our friends
, heidi and Tony, about thePhilippines.
Have you ever visited thePhilippines?
Pavel (02:37):
No, it sounds very exotic and far away and hot exotic and
far away and hot, yeah, yeah.
Shawn (02:49):
Yeah, it's a huge country and it's got very different
regions.
So there's the big cities, likeManila, and then there's
hundreds, if not thousands, oflike outlying islands, and Heidi
and Tony lived on one of theislands and they can explain
this, but they did not plan tolive on one of the islands.
Circumstances kind of dictatedthat they did so.
Neither of us has been to thephilippines, but we've both been
(03:11):
to islands.
Could you live on a smallisland?
Pavel (03:15):
I don't think so.
It's too little.
When I've been on the cookislands, rarotong, and you can
drive around the perimeter ofthe island in like 40 minutes,
it seems a little overwhelmingthat there's this tiny little
(03:36):
fragment of soil surrounded by amassive ocean.
I mean, people totally livethere, but it's just, uh, very
removed.
You have to be in a certainmindset to really enjoy that
type of life or if you want toget away from it all, but then
(03:58):
then there's nowhere to run itcan be confining.
Shawn (04:02):
but I always wonder, like like you, so people do live on
these islands small islands andbig islands but I've always
tried to figure out for myself,like what's the size that I
could manage?
Pavel (04:13):
Yeah.
Shawn (04:14):
What about like Hawaii?
Pavel (04:16):
Like big island is kind of big enough.
Shawn (04:21):
I would say how long did it take us?
Does it take us to get acrossthat?
Pavel (04:25):
I think two, three hours, maybe two hours Across it, but
not the perimeter.
I'm sure like to drive aroundwould take a lot longer, so you,
feel like that's big enough?
I would think so.
And it's very diverse becauseit's got like different
microclimates on the differentsides.
So at least you have thatdiversity of different
(04:49):
environments, as opposed tobeing in kind of like the same
climate throughout the year, nothaving the change.
I mean, that would certainly bea very, very interesting
experience to go through, tolike live there for a year or
two and see how it is for you,because you never know until you
(05:12):
try, all right.
Shawn (05:13):
Well, let's let Heidi and Tony explain their experience
to us.
Pavel (05:17):
Yeah.
Shawn (05:18):
We're your hosts, Shawn and Pavel, and if you've ever
stared out the window during ameeting and thought this would
be so much better with a mangoshake and an ocean breeze, and
if you've ever stared out thewindow during a meeting and
thought this would be so muchbetter with a mango shake and an
ocean breeze, then you'reabsolutely in the right place To
stay updated on the latestepisodes.
Follow, like and share.
Leaving America on the DeepDive with Shawn podcast feed.
Wherever you get your podcasts.
(05:39):
And if you're already livingthe island life in the
Philippines and have tips onsurviving typhoon season, local
visa hacks or which SIM cardwon't betray you mid-Zoom, tell
us everything atdeepdivewithshawn at gmailcom.
Pavel (05:55):
It sounds like it's time to pack your bags, cats, because
this is Living America.
Philippines edition.
Shawn (06:06):
Heidi and Tony welcome.
Hi, how are you?
Tony (06:09):
Hi, hello, we're doing well, I'm doing well.
Heidi (06:13):
I'm well, it's good to be here.
Pavel (06:15):
Pavel, how are you doing?
I'm doing very, very well.
Shawn (06:19):
Okay.
So we wanted to talk to the twoof you because we know that you
didn't make a concerteddecision to live abroad, but you
ended up living abroad for aperiod of time unexpectedly,
thanks to COVID.
So instead of asking you, Isuppose, why you decided to make
that move, maybe you could justtell us how that happened.
Heidi (06:39):
Well, the thing is too it is a place that we had gone
back and forth to and stayed forlike significant amounts of
time in the past.
Tony (06:49):
But yeah, this time we had planned to go back for three
months and I want to say it wasthat about two months into it
was about two and a half months,almost two and a half months in
, almost two and a half monthsin, and we started getting all
the news about what was going onand there was going to be
difficulties getting on flightsand all this kind of stuff was
(07:11):
happening.
Heidi (07:12):
ports were going to be closing tony didn't have his
passport at the time and thatthe passport office was on a
different island.
So they were talking that theywere going to be shutting down
the airports in the next coupleof days.
So I was was like you have togo get your passport, that's
thing number one, because we'renot going anywhere without that
(08:07):
no-transcript.
And then I panic and I keeptrying to call back, keep trying
to call back, and at some pointI just realized, okay, we're,
we're really stuck here andwe're we're riding this thing
out here.
And so I sent Tony an emaillike hey, just so you know, for
better or worse, we're ridingthis thing out here.
And so I sent Tony an emaillike hey, just so you know, for
better or worse, we're ridingthis thing out here.
(08:28):
I'm making myself a drink andI'm going down to the beach with
our dog so I went and got the.
Tony (08:33):
I went and got my passport , got on the next ferry back
over and, um, it ended up what athree-month trip was supposed
to be turned into about 15.
Heidi (08:44):
So a little year yeah year and a quarter and the first
three weeks were really likeeverything completely shut down,
everybody quarantined at homeand then kind of like after the
three weeks and we realizedthere weren't admissions in the
hospital and stuff and we're onan island.
So at that point we actuallywere like you know, maybe this
(09:05):
isn't a bad place to ride thisthing out.
Tony (09:08):
It wasn't the worst call that went dead.
I should say yeah, it was nice,it wasn't an issue.
Shawn (09:15):
What was the draw to the Philippines in the first place?
You said you'd gone there a fewtimes, so what was it about it?
Tony (09:21):
We decided when we quit our jobs that we were going to
travel for a year, and as we did, southeast Asia along with
Eastern Europe.
We ended up on this littleisland in the Philippines and
just really liked it.
We extended our stay.
We were supposed to be therefor, I want to say, maybe 10
days or something, and it turnedinto six weeks, and the only
reason we left was because wehad to go somewhere else.
Heidi (09:43):
So that was right, meeting people elsewhere in the
Philippines, so at the tail endof our trip.
Tony (09:48):
It was right at the tail end and so we knew we were going
to go back there after we gotback to the US and, you know,
took care of some things, and sowe just kept going back there.
One of the main draws, one ofthe main reasons, was a dog Roxy
adopted us while we were thereand we wanted, we just loved her
and we wanted to go back thereall the time.
But everything was wonderfulabout that island.
(10:09):
It was small, the people wereamazing, we made tons of friends
there in the short time that wewere there and we just really
liked it.
So we went back there.
We had eight month stays, sixmonth stays, a four month stay
and then the third or the lastone, which was supposed to be
three, turned into the COVID15-month trip.
Pavel (10:29):
Yeah, Was it mostly locals or expats that you made
friends with?
Heidi (10:35):
I feel like we had a pretty good mix of both.
They call the little villages,barangays, and the bar and guy
that we were in and the sort oflike resort that our long term
rental was at.
A lot of different families hadbeen working in the same place
(10:55):
and it was actually, I think,their family land that they sold
to the resort owners at onepoint, and so we got to know
those families really, reallywell and kind of a lot of the
kids ended up being our sort oflike nieces and nephews while we
were there.
Tony (11:06):
When you're there too, it's for length, certain lengths
of time, like when we went backfor eight months that I think
that was the first time we wentback.
You become part of thecommunity.
You, you, you know you hang outwith all the people that are
right in your area, whetherthey're expats or locals.
You go to the same markets andyou see the same people that are
right in your area, whetherthey're expats or locals.
You go to the same markets andyou see the same people that are
(11:26):
selling vegetables and youdevelop a relationship with them
over that length of time.
So it kind of felt like asecond home, even when we were
just going back there for thosedifferent lengths of time.
Heidi (11:38):
Yeah, the sense of community.
I think that that is the thingthat I'm always seeking, since
having the experience livingthere is like the community that
we had there right and likewith the expats too.
We made a lot of really goodfriends, for sure so it all kind
of just like happenedorganically.
Pavel (11:57):
You didn't have to like work for it or anything like
that, right?
Tony (12:01):
no, not really you, just the places that we started going
to.
If there was a place that wewent to that we just kind of
didn't had a bad vibe about,there was usually a reason
whether it was some of theexpats that were like oh I can
tell why, we don't know, there'snot a lot of other people that
go there, or there's a certainkind of group of expats that go
to that space, but that was inthat community.
(12:24):
There were you found, you foundyour people in the expat
community and then obviously the, the locals were just really
friendly, I mean yeah.
Filipino culture is it's veryfamily oriented.
Heidi (12:38):
It's the first place I think we were where people would
like they would pull you offthe street and invite you into
your, into their home yeah, ifyou're walking by, and they had
some dinner going on, theycalled you over to come in and
have some food and wouldn't takeno for an answer like or like
drinks a pleasant kidnapping.
Yeah, and like also, you arenot allowed to not eat or not
(13:01):
drink.
No, until they say you're done,you're eating and drinking.
Shawn (13:05):
It's required.
Tony (13:11):
Was the food in the Philippines like?
Would that be a culture shockfor Americans?
It depends on the American, Iguess.
I mean, there is a lot of stuffthat I think that some of the
things that would be weird forAmericans is like when you're
seeing a whole pig butcheredjust out on a table and there's
not really, and it's, it's sofresh.
There's nothing beingrefrigerated, it's just all
there, and if you go there anhour later, they're still
(13:33):
selling it, and so people wouldprobably lose their mind over
something like that.
Heidi (13:36):
And also like they use every single part of the animal,
which you know is a good thingthat I appreciate.
But you know, a skewer ofintestines might not appeal to
anybody, everybody.
Shawn (13:52):
People move out of the country for, or they make big
moves for a number of reasons,and most of the time, I think,
people have time to prepare andsometimes they don't.
And I think we're living througha period of time right now
where some people in the UnitedStates feel like they need to
make a move very quickly anddon't have a lot of time to
prepare, and I think the onlycorollary that I can think of of
the people that I know thathave lived through something
(14:15):
like that is the two of you withthis scenario where you know
you were planning to be therefor three months and then just
realized you were going to bestuck there indefinitely, and so
most of this series is focusedreally on if you have the
ability to plan to movesomewhere.
You know over the course of ayear or two, what are the steps
that you could take.
But, given kind of theexperience that you had having
(14:35):
to adjust to living someplaceindefinitely for a period of
time without having had the timeto prepare to actually do that,
what are some of the thingsthat you had to learn to do or
had to adjust to, simply becauseyou hadn't prepared to be there
for so long, and so you had tokind of level up pretty quickly.
Tony (14:54):
One of the issues.
I'd say that we well I wouldsay this first, having your own
business, all we really need isinternet and we can live
anywhere, so at the drop of ahat we could.
As long as I have a backpackand we have our laptops and that
sort of thing, we could reallyjust leave tonight and land
somewhere and make it work.
However, when you're on adifferent time zone, it's exact
(15:18):
opposite of our time zone,basically.
So all of the working hourswere at night, like overnight,
when I would normally besleeping, then that would be.
That was one of the biggestissues that I would say.
That had to get.
I'd have to get used to,because with our business we had
to.
You know, I had to be aroundduring business hours and it was
kind of tough to be awake atthree, four or five in the
(15:40):
morning, but the ease of thatwas that COVID hit so a lot of
our business I want to say 80%of our business dropped to zero.
So there wasn't a realadjustment that had to be made
other than well, we're notworking that much.
It's just they have this sayingthere called island time and
(16:02):
you just have to adjust to that,which is everything moves
slower and you're almost forcedto relax.
So I I would say there wasn't abig adjustment I think that we
had to deal with.
Heidi (16:13):
We were very fortunate that we were renting from tony's
brother and sister-in-law likein a bruv garage, like studio
apartment back so luckily, youknow, the rent was cheap enough
that we were able to keep payingfor both places while we were
stuck.
The other thing is I had hadjaw surgery and I remember I had
(16:37):
to like have the orthodontistoffice like mail me.
Do you remember that?
Tony (16:42):
oh yeah with your.
Heidi (16:43):
I'm trying to remember exactly what it was, but I was
supposed to be back for likecheckup appointments and so they
ended up I talked to them andthey were trying to work with me
and ended up we had to mail itand that was a whole ordeal too,
just trying to get somethingshipped, because you can't get
anything shipped directly to thelittle Island that we were on.
(17:03):
So we had to get it shipped toa neighboring island, to
somebody that we knew who thenhad to try to get it on a ferry
because nobody was allowed totravel between the islands at
that time.
So that was kind of interestinglike working.
Some of our medical needs.
Tony (17:19):
Yeah, I think, probably.
Yeah, not having it.
I don't think I had a dentistappointment for almost a year
and a half then.
Probably yeah Not having a Idon't think I had a dentist
appointment for almost a yearand a half then at that point.
So there was certain yeah, Ithink the medical normal
schedule of medical appointments.
Heidi (17:33):
But I think that changed for a lot of people during COVID
too.
Shawn (17:37):
What were you mailing back and forth?
Your jaw?
Heidi (17:39):
I needed retainer like these retainers, but I can't.
I can't even remember now itwas after my surgery, right so?
then it was, I think I hadbroken one of the retainers and
I was worried about like myteeth shifting and then also we
couldn't get floss there, and soI I think I did up asking the
(18:00):
dental office can we also justamazon some other stuff that we
don't, that we can't find hereor that we need?
And there were a couple otherthings that we just like we
couldn't find and so like theywere kind enough to throw these
extra things in that package forus when they mailed it.
Yeah, but yeah, even findinglike a shipping company it was,
(18:21):
that was very interesting forsure.
Shawn (18:24):
I'm trying to think of, like if you lived on an island,
like what could you use as floss?
And the first thing that comesto mind is like coconut fibers.
Heidi (18:31):
I know my hair, your hair Not thick enough, it breaks.
Pavel (18:38):
No, I used no floss when I was growing up in Russia.
Maybe that's why my teeth wereso messed up we're so messed up.
Heidi (18:56):
See, the problem is is I.
It's like an addiction for me,like that feeling of my being
clean, and once I have it itmakes me crazy, and also my
teeth are very close together,so I think maybe it feels worse
for me than other people it'salso important in those
situations to maintain thoselittle, like you know,
comfortable routines that arehelping you to stay sane and
otherwise very unusualenvironment.
(19:18):
So it does make sense, yeah itwas interesting too, because
there were which we may bedealing with here soon, um, but
lots of shortages on the islandbecause boats weren't moving
stuff around as much.
So it would be like, you know,like you just couldn't find
certain things for like weeks ormonths at a time, or like to
(19:41):
make the price of tomatoes waslike crazy, because that's
something that got shipped inand and so you know, it was just
interest, an interesting thingto live through.
Tony (19:51):
Oddly enough, one of the biggest issues was there was no
tonic on the for the gin andtonics, and I'm not joking, that
was like there was a shortageof tonic and someone we would
text each other if some storehad it, or we would buy up like
all of the tonic cans of tonicwater and just with our friends,
because, or the bars, or wewould buy up like all of the
tonic cans of tonic water andjust with our friends because,
(20:12):
or the bars that we would go tobecause it was it was in such a
short supply, yeah, but they didhad a gin oh there was plenty
of gin I mean
Heidi (20:22):
it's not.
Shawn (20:23):
It's like green spirit, but they flavor in flavor it's
flavored out island gin yes uh,I mean, this actually brings up
a really interesting point,because I think there are some
places that people considermoving that are remote and maybe
less developed than they mightbe used to, and I don't know
(20:48):
that we always know what we'regetting ourselves into if we
move to a place that has maybe ashaky infrastructure or doesn't
have the same types of supplythat we're used to in the United
States or whatever.
So how did you I mean, you'vekind of talked a little bit
about it, but how did you adjustto life where you couldn't get
what you wanted, or you knowthings might go down, or you
(21:10):
know just generally island life,which is just very different
from being in a very developed,stable, at least until recently,
country.
Heidi (21:20):
Yeah, I mean we had never really dealt with regular water
shortages, like we were drivingto a spring and filling up
buckets for like basic things.
Yeah, it's still a problem onthe island because they keep
developing even though thereisn't the infrastructure, like
with.
They call them brownouts.
They're really blackouts, it'sjust a nicer way of putting it.
(21:43):
Like it'll end eventually andthey're scheduled, they're
scheduled so it's ones thatsurprise you?
Tony (21:49):
yeah, but there's usually if you.
You hear about them ahead oftime sometimes, but other ones
just happen and you just getused to it.
You, I mean, make sure you'rewhen it's on, make sure anything
you need charge it up, makesure you have your stuff charged
but also the electricity itselfis not great and has damaged
our computers and so yeah,there's like surges and we
(22:13):
finally realized we had to get.
Heidi (22:15):
We had a surge protector.
Tony (22:16):
It had a little needle that would like, you'd see them
needle bump bouncing and you'dhear it clicking when there was
a surge.
Some days it would just beclicking all this time.
Sometimes not, but you justkind of adapt to it and usually
going back and forth there wewould adapt relatively quickly
to it.
But with all of those sort ofthings comes living you know 30
(22:40):
paces from the ocean, where yougo and sit there and watch the
most amazing sunsets everysingle night walk on the beach,
every you walk on the beach allday and you go during high tide,
you go into the water and youjust sit there and soak and
there's not a soul aroundbecause it's during covid.
Heidi (22:58):
So that was very cool.
We got to go to like places inthe island that normally would
be full of people and actually,yeah, be like the only people
there, which was very, very cool.
Tony (23:08):
It was interesting because it felt like it was the very
first time we went, which it wasvery different than when we
initially went, that threemonths, where we ended up
getting stuck there with havingso few people there.
It felt like we were back inthat very first time we went,
which was, I want to say, 10.
Yeah, it was.
It was 20 2012, so it was likea you trip back in time.
Heidi (23:32):
There was, there were no people there no tourists, no
tourists, like only the fewpeople that got stuck there.
Most people found a way out,but yeah.
Then it got to a certain pointwhere we could have gotten back,
but we didn't want to anymoreno like well, we're gonna stay a
little bit longer.
Tony (23:49):
No, we'll wait, we'll wait , we'll wait, we'll wait.
We saw everything that wasgoing on in the us and we're
like we're in no big hurry toget and also the travel through
the philippines and through asiaback to the us.
Heidi (24:00):
Like we waited until it got a little easier to do that,
because otherwise you're havingto stop and test and do all
these things to get to the nextplace.
Like every step of travel waslike another quarantine and we
just didn't want to have to dealwith all that.
But I would say for me, I loveisland life and so I always have
(24:22):
a harder time.
I'd take the lack of water,lack of electricity, lack of
internet any day.
I'd take all thoseinconveniences versus like when
I come back here and I'm justlike overwhelmed with choice and
there's so much happening allthe time.
I think that was a really,really hard adjustment after
(24:42):
those 15 months of like very,very peaceful, quiet, simple
living and coming back here.
Pavel (24:51):
Would you have considered like retiring there or stay
there forever?
Heidi (24:58):
I could live there forever.
But Tony, it's not really.
He needs a little more culture,some live music, some art.
I feel like you get reallyculture starved when we're there
and you get more frustratedwith some of the that's.
Tony (25:15):
That's true.
I mean I especially.
I mean I feel as as I'm gettinga little bit older, I'm I'm
needing less of it and as longas I don't need to run a
business, as we don't need torun a business, that's such a
stress when I'm there Becausewhen the brownouts come, if I'm
uploading files or things likethat that need that sort of
(25:37):
thing, there's an added stressto running a business.
When you're on a completelyopposite time zone and also with
sketchy internet, it just addsthat level of anxiety.
Shawn (25:53):
I want to kind of circle back to this idea that you
brought up about.
All the choice that you have inthe States but, you know, is, I
guess, denied you if you live ina place like an island, in the
remote part of the, in a remotepart of the world, because and
this is something that Pavel andI talk about quite a bit, and I
think it's to some degree oneof the reasons that people look
to the United States as being agreat place to go or a place to
(26:16):
aspire to live because we haveso much choice.
But what I found when I travelis that and I often hear from
people, if I'm going to gosomeplace, especially an island
or a place that's very remote inthe world for an extended
period of time is aren't yougoing to miss having, you know,
fill in the blank, same daydelivery of things?
Aren't you going to miss havingAmazon?
Aren't you going to miss havingCostco or something?
(26:38):
And I have found in my travelthat I do think I'm going to
miss those things until I'mthere and I realized how
stressful having so much choiceactually is.
Does that make?
Heidi (26:50):
sense.
Yes, that is totally like Ilike not having a lot of choices
, like it's like oh, they don'thave that at the market, so
we're gonna have this instead.
You know, like I almost getoverwhelmed, whereas if it's
already narrowed down for me,that's why I'm kind of thankful
for my gluten allergy, in a wayLike okay, it takes out at least
(27:12):
part of the menu for me, so Ican't, I can't even look at that
much of it.
So it's narrowed down to thesemany things.
Like I don't know, maybe it'sbecause I grew up on a farm and
I didn't have a lot of choice inmy life as a kid that I just
find it overwhelming and I'dalmost rather just have fewer
options and, like you said, afresh market.
(27:34):
It's like this is what's inseason now, so that's what I
want to be eating.
Tony (27:38):
That's.
It's funny what you just said.
There too.
That makes me think of whenwe're here in the U?
S, we're talking about oh,there's a new season of
something on Netflix, or a newseason of something on Hulu.
When we're're on the island,we're excited because mango
season is coming, or dragonfruit season, or passion fruit
season.
Those are the seasons we talkabout.
On the island, we're not.
We don't care about Netflix orany of those.
(28:01):
What season of television is on,it's all about the season of
the, the fruit that's coming outor different fish or they're
going to be coming through andthey're going to be catching all
of this different fish now andit's like we can't wait for that
season to start happening.
So it's a very different seasonsort of excitement.
Pavel (28:22):
Yeah, it's like you're not wasting all your attention
and energy on trying to figurethings out and you're able to
like concentrate more and enjoymore with what is available and
be a little bit more in syncwith the environment that you
are in.
And that's what's so beautifulis that you were immersed in the
(28:45):
community and you were able tolike find the ways of how to get
certain stuff from the otherislands.
So you kind of like yeah, likethat's one of the things that
here in the states is like weare losing or lost is that sense
of community and ability tolike work together on getting
(29:05):
something, because everything iskind of available.
You know, you can just placethe order and get something like
the next day or the same day ifyou pay a little extra yeah,
whereas, like tony was saying, alot of the local friends we
made what was like the lady thatwe bought our fish from?
Heidi (29:23):
you know a few times a week we became really good
friends with her and her wholefamily and we're still in touch
with that and like the littlemarket around the corner and
like certain little places whereit's just because you are
interacting with people all thetime.
Tony (29:39):
I think probably you'll appreciate this too, because I
know you're as an artist doinghere.
I do a lot more work on mycomputer.
I create a lot more on mycomputer.
When we were on the island, Ihad my computer there, but there
were so many other things.
I found myself doing a lot morecraft type hands-on art rather
than digital art.
(30:01):
So there's a lot ofavailability to different things
that I don't have here and youjust start crafting things and
making things and um, it's, it'skind of from an artistic
standpoint as well, it's, it'svery, it's very different, it's
a very different atmosphere.
Pavel (30:17):
So you just kind of go with it yeah, make do with what
you have, as opposed to here yougo to michael's and there's
like such a huge diversity ofthings that you can get and make
.
And then like at some point I'mlike, oh my god, I have too
much crap, uh, and I'm notactually creating anything, and
so I stopped buying and I'm like, oh, I just need to use what I
(30:41):
have.
I need to use, like the yarn orwhatever the stones or like the
paints that I have, and justmake do with what I have, as
opposed to continue to like buyand buy shit and not using it.
Yeah, yeah, that's, yeah,that's it.
That's a good point.
You can.
You can be a better artist bybeing stuck on a little Island,
right?
You also can have a like abetter, maybe, imagination,
(31:04):
because you you don't have thatNetflix to distract, distract
yourself with all this.
Tony (31:09):
It's forced creativity.
You're forced to really becreative because you're all of.
Heidi (31:15):
Your assets are much, much fewer yeah, and even
cooking is a more creativeexercise is like we don't have
an oven there.
You have two little gas burnersand it's like a top chef
challenge.
You have this, this, this andthis makes your ingredients you
have to work with today.
Shawn (31:33):
I mean, it's actually a fascinating kind of indictment
about convenience culture,because I do think in the United
States we do have this ideathat if we have to experience
scarcity or if we can't get whatwe want, then that's an, that's
an inconven, inconvenience, andwe're not living our best life
and something is wrong orsomething is backward or
(31:53):
something is underdeveloped.
But I also wonder if I supposealong the lines of what you're
saying is if what we're alsolosing is what scarcity gives us
, which is creativity andinvention and a certain amount
of almost like survivalmentality that just gets lost
when we have everything at ourfingertips at all times.
(32:15):
You know we have stopped usingsignificant parts of our brains.
Heidi (32:18):
Yeah, and you need to rely on other people when I
don't know, the sense ofcommunity was just a lot greater
, I think, when you can doeverything, like you said,
online, you can buy yourselfonline.
You're just kind of rushingfrom thing to thing, like it's.
I just feel like you're notreally living as much as like on
(32:41):
that Island where you're,you're having moments with
people all day long.
Tony (32:48):
You have endless options here in the US but you lose all
human interaction because youhave those options.
When we're on the island, youlean on other people.
You actually know, oh, thesepeople have, like our fish lady,
that's where we.
Oh, she has this so we can goto her for this.
And you talk about passionfruit.
We had a friend who had apassion fruit tree and when that
(33:08):
season was in she had more thanshe knew what to deal with or
to do with.
So we would go there and shewould just she would basically
give it to you because she hadtoo much.
So you kind of lean oncommunity a lot more than you do
.
You know Amazon to just go fillyour cart, ship shipping, boom
and you're.
Pavel (33:28):
You know you're done, but it's just such a a lack of
interaction and a lack ofcommunity yeah, now, even when,
like door dash, somebodydelivers food, I feel awkward
opening the door while thepeople are still in the car
because I don't know, forwhatever reason, I just feel
(33:50):
weird interacting with thesepeople.
So I wait until they leave andthen I open the door like a
weirdo and grab the things, thedoor and get inside.
But that's what I became andit's so.
It's so weird.
Like I yeah, I used to alsolike in New Zealand was a lot
(34:12):
more social and here, like I'mmuch more like.
Sometimes I'm afraid to like bea little more open with people
because I don't know if I'mgoing to offend somebody with
something and everyone is afraidthat they might offend you with
saying something, and so youjust like stay in your cocoon,
(34:34):
uh, all alone with your facelessamazon and door dash deliveries
that suddenly became bleak andgloom no, I told tony I was like
I needed to learn how to people, how to be human in the U S.
Heidi (34:53):
Again, like you said, it's just different.
Like, like you said, peoplehave their guards and walls up
and it's like I don't.
I think they don't really wantto interact with people, so I
don't want to.
You know, pop their bubble ifthey were not wanting.
And I mean people just don'teven make eye contact a lot of
times.
You know, heads are down in thephones or whatever.
(35:14):
It's just a different way oflife.
Shawn (35:19):
I had a Amazon package delivered a few days ago and I
so you know they take a pictureand then send it to you and they
deliver.
But I was just I saw themcoming up, so I opened the door
and the box was on the step.
And they know they take apicture and then send it to you
and they deliver.
But I was just I saw themcoming up so I opened the door
and the box was on the step andthey were about to take a
picture and I was like, oh, Ican just take it, it's fine.
And they're like no, no, no, Ihave to take a picture.
And it was.
I kind of stood there for asecond.
Then I was like do you, do youwant me to shut it's?
Tony (35:44):
like getting caught in the Google camera.
You're out in your yard and youfind yourself on Google Maps or
Google Images.
Heidi (35:51):
I thought you were going to say like do you want a photo
of me holding it?
Pavel (35:55):
Yeah, Thumbs up Smile.
Shawn (36:00):
But I did actually, pavel , I wanted to swing back and ask
you because we were talkingabout earlier preparing to move
and you've made two moves andthey were very different one to
New Zealand and then one to theStates, and you at least the one
to the States, you had somesignificant time to kind of
prepare for that.
So how do you feel about orwhat do you think the benefit is
(36:22):
to having some time to prepare,or what is preparing to move to
another country look like, asopposed to you know, as Heidi
and Tony said, having to adapton the ground unexpectedly and
(36:52):
be able to like part on yourterms with your stuff that you
know that you're not gonna takewith yourself.
Pavel (36:55):
So you have time to plan what you're gonna get rid of,
give away to friends and or sell, and you know what you're gonna
be able to take with yourselfbecause you have limited amount
of luggage or, you know,obviously can pay more to get a
container or something.
But I didn't have that muchstuff or that much stuff that I
(37:17):
was attached to.
So, yeah, it's just the abilityto, uh, to plan what you're
going to pack with yourself andplan all the things that you
need to wrap up.
Like you know, the bills changethe name on the water bill or
(37:39):
the internet bill and allowwhoever you live with some time
to, you know, find a newflatmates and stuff like that.
So it's just, I guess, theability to plan, plan your move
and not feel rushed, becausesometimes people, when they rush
(38:04):
, you just have to you.
You might, you might not beable to get the benefits of, you
know, getting some cash foryour stuff and you just have to
get, get it to the goodwill orsomething was it easier or
harder the second time that youdid a big relocation?
(38:27):
I think it was easier because,first of all, I was moving to a
place where I know somebody andI am looking forward to live
with that person.
When the first time I was moving, I kind of like and I knew that
(38:49):
I only have, you know, thisamount that I can spend and I
have enough money for, like,let's say, three, four months.
So it was a little bit morestressful but it helped to kind
of like prepare the worst casescenario with, like, still
(39:09):
keeping my job in, you know, inMoscow where I was working.
So that kind of helped you.
You always have to create foryourself like a backup plan Okay
, I'm moving, what's the worstcase scenario if it's not going
to work out?
And you know, write, write itdown, plan it.
(39:34):
And the other thing that youhave to, or like I had to come
up with is, like, what do I doto, like you know, be able to
stick around and to prevent theworst case scenario from
happening?
So that's why, you know, I waslooking for a job, I was going
to classes on how to do this,you know how to write the resume
(39:57):
and stuff, and I was networking.
So it's, I would say, the mainthing is just to develop like,
okay, what's the worst casescenario and what will I do if
that is going to happen?
Shawn (40:13):
For all three of you because you've had to kind of
confront this has moving to somedegree, for this is more
specific to you, pavel, but itplayed out differently for you,
heidi and Tony.
Moving you had to shed a lot ofbelongings and kind of start
over.
Unless you do have like acontainer ship or whatever and
you're moving everything thatyou own someplace, you're really
(40:35):
moving with a handful ofsuitcases.
As americans that meansprobably quite a bit of
downsizing.
Has that changed how you thinkabout the accumulation of stuff
and things?
Heidi (40:46):
I think it has um, and also another helpful part is
when we came back here after our15 months in the Philippines,
we were still intending to splitour time between here and there
, and so we actually left quitea lot of stuff like in bins with
a friend and then when werealized like it just wasn't
(41:08):
going to work and we needed tostay here, you realize this
stuff that we thought was soimportant that we needed to hold
on to like I couldn't evenreally think what was in the
bins, and so we just asked ourfriends can you just go through
it?
And if there's anything thatlooks like it's important, just
hold on to that, but everythingelse to just get rid of it.
And I would like to almost dothe same thing here, because we
(41:34):
we also have moved a lot overthe time that we've been
together and lived all over thecountry, and you know we were
bringing this tote from thisstate to the state and this
state to the state.
Like I almost would love tojust do the same thing have
somebody else go through it andthrow most of it away.
Tony (41:54):
There's just something about doing it yourself that
feels so much harder that I wishI could have brought home with
me but obviously I couldn't geton the plane with it for obvious
reasons was the knife that Ibought there that I used to cut
(42:17):
open.
We used to get it's a machete.
It's a machete.
We used to get coconuts and itwas the knife that I cut open my
coconuts with and we would getfresh coconut water all the time
and it was the best and that'sthe only thing that I'm like.
Someone has that it's probablyour friend Craig, and I'm like
(42:39):
that was the one thing that Ireally prized there, like I
loved using that and but it's,it's true, we left so many
things there clothes, pans,different things that we really,
you know, we really were likewe're going to hang on to this
stuff.
It's all gone and it's.
It's not a big deal.
I feel like we're getting tothat point here, too, where
we're downsizing even more here.
(43:00):
Even with my records, even withHeidi's books, we're downsizing
a lot of this stuff justbecause we may want to get on
out at the drop of a hat.
Heidi (43:11):
It's more of an anchor.
I think that's what we'rerealizing is the stuff is an
anchor and the less you'reattached to it, the better.
Yeah, because, yeah, like, ifsomething happens, I think we
could figure out a way to be outof here pretty quickly if we
needed to.
Tony (43:27):
I know that I could fit everything I would need to take
with me in a single backpack ifI wanted to.
I really could do it and itwould be OK.
Shawn (43:37):
I mean, that's something I learned.
I don't I don't want to say thehard way, it's just something I
learned and maybe this is kindof along the same lines as what
Heidi was saying which is likethe times that I've had to leave
and it wasn't necessarilyinternationally, but you know.
So I left a relationship once.
It pretty much left everythingbehind and then started over.
And then I had big chunks oftime when I was in New Zealand
(44:00):
and I was living out of just onesuitcase.
Essentially, I thought at thetime that I was leaving all
kinds of stuff behind, but veryquickly I just learned how to
live with what I have and pickedup along the way the other
necessities.
But, Pavel, you come from adifferent background, which is
you kind of grew up with acertain amount of scarcity.
So I'm wondering what yourrelationship to things and stuff
(44:23):
is now that you have access tothings that you've never
actually had access to prior.
Pavel (44:29):
Well, I'm definitely compensating here in the States,
but I do agree that all thestuff that we accumulate is kind
of the anchor to the past thatwe hold on to.
I cannot, like I moved, alsolike so many times while I, well
(44:51):
, I lived in russia, because Imoved from small town to a
bigger town, then to a largertown, but I cannot remember of
any particular thing or anobject that you know I miss, I'm
sure, like if I would remembersomething and it would bring
back a certain memoriesassociated with that object, I
(45:15):
would be like oh, that that wasnice, but I can't live without
it.
I mean now certainly like weaccumulated a lot of records,
books and and stuff I, I, I thatI would feel sad to to part
with.
I'm definitely going to betaking my peggy lee collection
(45:37):
of the records, like, yeah, it's, I mean Shawn first, then the
cat, then probably peggy leecollection, then my, then my
notebooks, like you know, olddiaries and stuff.
And then maybe some of mypaintings or, you know, drawings
(45:59):
, but yeah, the rest, likeclothes you can kind of like
very easily replace.
So hopefully I can fit it allin one suitcase.
Okay, maybe one and a half.
It's ideal, but I certainly,you know it's not the end of the
world is, if I'm not going toget my Peggy Lee collection,
we're still Spotify that we canlive by.
(46:21):
And now thinking about likesome of the drawings or
paintings you know, I guess Ican take good pictures of it,
because it's just also kind oflike a memory, the snapshots of
like a certain feelings oremotions that I had when I would
make something.
But yeah, stuff is just ananchor, it's just an extra
(46:44):
weight.
That is that is holding us to toour past experiences, and I I
had that period of time where Iloved going to estate sales.
But every time you go to some ofthe estate sales and you
realize, okay, well, probablythe person who lived here died.
(47:04):
Uh, well, 100 of a time,probably, yeah, and you go for
some of the houses and they likeso cluttered, there's like so
much stuff and it's so heavy,and you get a headache almost in
some of these houses and you'relike, yeah, like that person
never cleaned out their garage,like you know, it's just so much
(47:26):
stuff.
Was that person happy, I don'tknow.
And it was always like aslightly different feeling when
you're going through a house andit's kind of like more airy,
cleaner in a way, less lessstuff for junk.
Um, so I I mean, you know wecome, we're born naked and we
(47:47):
die naked, so why bother, youknow, wasting energy on trying
to hold on to the objects youhold on to people and your
friends and family and therelationships, and they usually,
like you know, weightless,weightless.
Aaron Martin (48:05):
Yeah.
Heidi (48:06):
Well, and you have.
You also felt like the thingsthat you hold on to and bring to
the new place Don't like.
A lot of the things that Ibrought don't work in the new
place.
You know what I mean.
So I'm like why did I move onto this?
Why did I move this?
It doesn't fit in the new placeor the new life, or you know.
(48:28):
So I think I'm'm gonna startseeing it more as an opportunity
, like, okay, we're gonna let goof the things accumulated here
and we will find new things inthe next place that we like just
as much.
Tony (48:41):
It'll be different, but it'll be fine we keep bringing
things up from downstairs,especially now as it's getting
warmer, and we put a whole boxor two boxes of things out by
the road and everything is gonewithin about maybe 45 minutes to
an hour and it's.
It's a great way to just purgethings.
(49:02):
And I swear if I needed to, wecould do that with everything we
own, and you could just becompletely clean.
Heidi (49:10):
But, like you said, it's nice to get some money for some
stuff.
Pavel (49:13):
Exactly.
Heidi (49:14):
Yeah.
Pavel (49:15):
Because, Shawn, like yesterday or yesterday, you went
through this box full of stuffthat was in the basement for a
while.
How did it make you feel?
Shawn (49:34):
while.
How did it make you feel?
Yeah, it was so it was.
What it was is a bunch of binsthat I have taken with me over
the last 20 years of moves thatI have never opened.
I've just taken them with mewhen I move and then put them in
a closet and then when I moveagain, I take them again and
move them.
So I went through them and, uh,I mean, there was some memory
stuff there, but like a lot ofit was just stuff that I've
collected and I was kind of likeI don't remember what this is
(49:55):
or this is no longer, it doesn't, it's not applicable anymore,
and I probably threw out 90% ofthe stuff.
I went through like four binsand you know I'm down to like
half a bin.
There was some memory stuff inthere, like photos and stuff,
but other than that it's justjunk that I've accumulated over
time that at some point Ithought was really important but
(50:15):
is not anymore.
But I actually was having aconversation with somebody
recently and we were talkingabout what is something that you
feel like would be a realheartbreak if you did have to
give up, if you moved.
Another way to ask the questionis what is something that you
would feel like would be reallyimportant to take with you of
the things that you have.
And I guess, relationshipsaside, obviously I think I would
(50:40):
miss my book collection, whichis not a great answer, because
that's not easy to take with you.
It's highly curated and it'svery old.
I would miss it.
But what would be the top ofyour list?
Again, relationships and petsaside, what's at the top of your
list for something that wouldjust you feel like you would
really want to take with you ifyou moved abroad?
Tony (51:01):
Outside of a digital thing , like I'm saying, because I've
taken so many photos at so manyconcerts and I've taken so many
photos of our travels that wedid.
But that's all digital kind ofstuff.
If we're talking about anactual physical, physical thing,
(51:21):
it's.
It's kind of difficult becauseI've even said I, I, I would be
able to, I would be able to letgo of all of the records I have,
even though they all havespecific, I would say,
sentimental meaning.
I would be able to leave all ofthat.
But I would say, maybe some ofthe very first, like some of my
(51:47):
old drawings that I did as a kid, I flipped through them every
once in a while.
There's something about that,just because it was kind of like
the birth of all of what cameafterwards and there's a lot of
inspiration and there is a lotof connection with those very
first drawings, from to myparents, to things like that
(52:09):
that are very, very sentimental.
So I'd probably want to grabsome of some of that kind of
stuff and just a few.
I actually had a conversationwith a friend who just went
through a yearbook of his and herealized that I did some
drawings in the yearbook.
I don't have any of myyearbooks.
I don't have any of this stufffrom high school anymore.
(52:29):
I remember when I threw it awayand I just recently because one
of my friends who passed away,a good friend of mine, who have
drawn in my yearbook and writtenall these things I really I was
really sad for a moment that Icouldn't look at those again.
I wish I could have, but thething is I remember all of it.
(52:51):
I would want to have it justfor a moment to look through,
but then I wouldn't at thoseagain.
I wish I could have, but thething is I remember all of it.
I would want to have it justfor a moment to look through,
but then I wouldn't need itagain.
But the memory is all there.
So that's kind of it's.
It's almost immaterial, like Iwouldn't have to look at it,
have it physically, but just thememory of that stuff is
something.
Heidi (53:08):
Just to look at it one more time would be fun I'm like
you, Shawn, my books and like,like you, I I've curated and
tony's saying I'm slowly gettingI'm very, very slowly getting
rid of a couple books here andthere, but I think as long as I
felt they went to the rightplace, I could be okay with it.
(53:29):
Like, if I found somebody thatwanted to take my books for
their library or something likethat, I think then I would feel
okay about it.
Shawn (53:39):
Pasha, what do you think?
Pavel (53:41):
Yeah, just just, I guess, my diaries because I have some
from when I was like what, 10,12.
And now that I'm looking atlike the first edition from the
50s of Dr Zhivago, I'm likeshould I take it?
But then probably like, nah, Ican, yeah, I can part with it as
(54:06):
well.
Yeah, I think, just some ofthose very intimate diaries and
you know, those notebooks thatcome from the past and they're
fairly light it's.
Heidi (54:20):
It's not that much weight , but yeah and I do have letters
and drawings from tony, so Iwould keep those.
Pavel (54:30):
Yeah, do you go for them often?
Heidi (54:34):
I think because I put them in like safekeeping, like
I'll come across like a littlestash of them every once in a
while, or like I know thatthere's tons in the basement too
right now.
But yeah, those I'd probablystill hold on to.
Shawn (54:47):
Would you ever consider moving abroad again?
Heidi (54:50):
For sure.
Tony (54:50):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and even more so now it's.
Heidi (54:55):
It's one of the things it's tough because we do really
like where we are now and againwe finally feel like we have
that sense of community herewhich took a while to build any
of this right now.
Tony (55:06):
I mean, obviously we're all on the same page here.
Any of this could just turn ona dime and, you know, really get
nasty.
So, and not that it isn'talready, but, um, yeah, I would.
I would be able to the drop ofa hat.
Like I said, I could throwenough things in a backpack that
I could just leave this placeand be gone and just disappear.
(55:29):
I would be more than more thanokay with it.
Heidi (55:32):
We could, it'd be sad I'd take a bunch of pictures.
Yeah, and I guess I've donethat.
Every time I've moved and feltlike I loved, you know like
things about the place that Ilived, I always made sure I took
photos of everything, how I hadit, before I like start packing
stuff up.
Shawn (55:51):
Have you thought about where you'd go or places you'd
consider?
Heidi (55:55):
I feel like it's all pretty open.
Definitely the we'd have tolook at who's accepting us and
you know like we could takeadvantage of like nomad visas
and like different, I think,working visas and probably even
like possibly early retirementor those kind of things where
(56:17):
you have to have X amount inyour savings account.
I think we have lots of options.
I can't say that there's anycertain place that I'm
especially drawn to.
Tony (56:27):
Like some of those things you see online where it's like,
oh, you can, for one dollar youcan have, you can buy a place in
italy in this area.
You see those things.
No, I I think that, um,probably the one of the
prerequisites would be somewherewith a warm climate.
I think it's always somethingthat is kind of, you know, at
(56:48):
the top the list, the body ofwater of some kind within near
proximity is is essential.
And again, like the way thingsare going, obviously Heidi has a
great point, like someone thatwill accept us, you know,
because that that's getting tobe more and more of a true, I
(57:10):
guess, concern.
Yeah, that as long as someonewill, will take us and I feel
there's certain places that arevery much like, come here, we'll
accept you open arms, which isyou know what we always want to,
how we want to live our lifewith everybody else that you
know we come across.
So, but, yeah, how about youguys?
Would you, would you be willingto do it and where would you go
(57:32):
?
Pavel (57:33):
I would say that we would go back to New Zealand because
that's uh, that's my second home.
Uh, I would call Russia myfirst home, obviously because
it's my homeland.
I would call New Zealand mysecond home just because of the
emotional connection and everytime, in the saddest periods, it
(58:02):
was always the memories of NewZealand that, you know, helped
me through and that's the placewhere I draw most of the
inspiration from.
So I would say, like that wouldbe our main option, because I
do have a residency there and wedo have some lovely and
(58:24):
beautiful friends there that Ihope will be excited about us
being around.
So, yeah, that would be ouroption.
And yeah, I do agree with youEverything, the things are going
to shit and you know it's notpleasant to live in a constant
(58:47):
turmoil which, you know,everything seems to become.
Shawn (58:54):
Yeah, I mean all of that right, like obviously, one of
the things that I'm learningthrough this series is the
options that people haveAmericans have available to them
, so that makes things moreattractive.
I didn't know how easy it wasto get residency in Costa Rica,
but I also wonder if I couldlive.
You know, I want a warm place.
I just don't know if I could dothat year round.
(59:16):
I do like my seasons.
I didn't realize how easy itwas to get a visa to France and
that's interesting to me, but Ialso think, like my heart is in
New Zealand and that's probablyour most likely option.
Pavel (59:31):
That's probably our most likely option, and who knows?
Heidi (59:37):
maybe Heidi and Tony would be interested in exploring
that option too.
Well, we'll definitely bevisiting.
Aaron Martin (59:41):
Yeah.
Shawn (59:42):
Heidi, Tony, thank you for taking the time.
I enjoyed the conversation.
Heidi (59:47):
We enjoyed it too.
Thanks, Shawn and Pavel.
Tony (59:49):
Yeah, thank you so much.
This was fun to kind of talkabout this stuff again.
It's been a minute, thank you.
Shawn (59:56):
Life in the Philippines may move slower, sometimes
frustratingly, so you won'talways get what you want in two
clicks or two hours, but that'skind of the point.
When you trade the constantbuzz of American urgency for an
island pace where time ismeasured in tides, meals are
shared without rush and there'sno pressure to monetize every
(01:00:18):
waking moment, something shifts.
You start to notice things yourbreath, your neighbors, your
own thoughts.
Living without constantabundance doesn't feel like
deprivation, it feels likeenough, and in a world obsessed
with more, that's quietlyradical and deeply good for the
(01:00:38):
soul.
Alright, next week, on LeavingAmerica, we're going to take a
closer look at theEnglish-speaking options Canada,
new Zealand and Australia.
If you're an Americaninterested in moving somewhere
that seems faintly American,these countries offer stability,
safety and a culture that mightfeel surprisingly familiar.
(01:00:59):
This is leaving America,because sometimes home isn't
where you started.
The Thank you.
Imagine living in New Zealand with your family.
If that's your destination ofchoice, new Zealand immigration
law is here to help.
How do we do that?
First of all, a deep divediagnosis to ensure that you've
got the right pathway and thepathway of least resistance.
Because, let's face it,crossing international borders
can be a nightmare.
Borders can be a nightmare.
(00:26):
We also look after youthroughout the application
process ensuring that thatsatisfies New Zealand government
visa criteria and managing yourapplication through the
immigration process, dealingwith the complexities and the
issues that might be raised byImmigration New Zealand.
I'm Aaron Martin and I've beenworking in the immigration space
for 28 years, helping peoplesettle successfully in New
Zealand, and I'm supported by ateam which collectively has 62
(00:48):
years of experience in this area.
If you'd like to know moreabout me and my team and how we
can help you, reach out to us onour website, wwwnzilconz.
Shawn (01:07):
Welcome to Leaving America, the podcast for people
who look at rent prices,partisan gridlock and late-stage
capitalism and think maybe it'stime I lived somewhere, not
America.
In this episode, we're headingto a place where the locals will
call you sir or ma'am withunsettling sincerity.
Karaoke is both a pastime and apersonality trait, and the
(01:31):
Wi-Fi may or may not work, butsomeone will absolutely lend you
their hotspot if you ask nicely.
We're going to talk about thePhilippines.
It's one of the mostEnglish-friendly,
foreigner-welcoming andculturally warm countries you
could possibly land in, and yetit's oddly overlooked by many
would-be expats and digitalnomads.
(01:52):
On last week's episode, we duginto the visa options, the cost
of living and the culture in thePhilippines.
Today, my husband, pavel, isback and we're going to talk to
two of our closest friends,heidi and Tony, who got stranded
in the Philippines during thepandemic, turning a three-month
trip into a 15-month stay, aboutwhat they love about the
(02:15):
country, what you truly need tostart a new life somewhere, and
how life on an isolated islandstacks up against the American
rat race.
Hey Pavel, hi Shawn.
So today we're going to betalking with some of our friends
, heidi and Tony, about thePhilippines.
Have you ever visited thePhilippines?
Pavel (02:37):
No, it sounds very exotic and far away and hot exotic and
far away and hot, yeah, yeah.
Shawn (02:49):
Yeah, it's a huge country and it's got very different
regions.
So there's the big cities, likeManila, and then there's
hundreds, if not thousands, oflike outlying islands, and Heidi
and Tony lived on one of theislands and they can explain
this, but they did not plan tolive on one of the islands.
Circumstances kind of dictatedthat they did so.
Neither of us has been to thephilippines, but we've both been
(03:11):
to islands.
Could you live on a smallisland?
Pavel (03:15):
I don't think so.
It's too little.
When I've been on the cookislands, rarotong, and you can
drive around the perimeter ofthe island in like 40 minutes,
it seems a little overwhelmingthat there's this tiny little
(03:36):
fragment of soil surrounded by amassive ocean.
I mean, people totally livethere, but it's just, uh, very
removed.
You have to be in a certainmindset to really enjoy that
type of life or if you want toget away from it all, but then
(03:58):
then there's nowhere to run itcan be confining.
Shawn (04:02):
but I always wonder, like like you, so people do live on
these islands small islands andbig islands but I've always
tried to figure out for myself,like what's the size that I
could manage?
Pavel (04:13):
Yeah.
Shawn (04:14):
What about like Hawaii?
Pavel (04:16):
Like big island is kind of big enough.
Shawn (04:21):
I would say how long did it take us?
Does it take us to get acrossthat?
Pavel (04:25):
I think two, three hours, maybe two hours Across it, but
not the perimeter.
I'm sure like to drive aroundwould take a lot longer, so you,
feel like that's big enough?
I would think so.
And it's very diverse becauseit's got like different
microclimates on the differentsides.
So at least you have thatdiversity of different
(04:49):
environments, as opposed tobeing in kind of like the same
climate throughout the year, nothaving the change.
I mean, that would certainly bea very, very interesting
experience to go through, tolike live there for a year or
two and see how it is for you,because you never know until you
(05:12):
try, all right.
Shawn (05:13):
Well, let's let Heidi and Tony explain their experience
to us.
Pavel (05:17):
Yeah.
Shawn (05:18):
We're your hosts, Shawn and Pavel, and if you've ever
stared out the window during ameeting and thought this would
be so much better with a mangoshake and an ocean breeze, and
if you've ever stared out thewindow during a meeting and
thought this would be so muchbetter with a mango shake and an
ocean breeze, then you'reabsolutely in the right place To
stay updated on the latestepisodes.
Follow, like and share.
Leaving America on the DeepDive with Shawn podcast feed.
Wherever you get your podcasts.
(05:39):
And if you're already livingthe island life in the
Philippines and have tips onsurviving typhoon season, local
visa hacks or which SIM cardwon't betray you mid-Zoom, tell
us everything atdeepdivewithshawn at gmailcom.
Pavel (05:55):
It sounds like it's time to pack your bags, cats, because
this is Living America.
Philippines edition.
Shawn (06:06):
Heidi and Tony welcome.
Hi, how are you?
Tony (06:09):
Hi, hello, we're doing well, I'm doing well.
Heidi (06:13):
I'm well, it's good to be here.
Pavel (06:15):
Pavel, how are you doing?
I'm doing very, very well.
Shawn (06:19):
Okay.
So we wanted to talk to the twoof you because we know that you
didn't make a concerteddecision to live abroad, but you
ended up living abroad for aperiod of time unexpectedly,
thanks to COVID.
So instead of asking you, Isuppose, why you decided to make
that move, maybe you could justtell us how that happened.
Heidi (06:39):
Well, the thing is too it is a place that we had gone
back and forth to and stayed forlike significant amounts of
time in the past.
Tony (06:49):
But yeah, this time we had planned to go back for three
months and I want to say it wasthat about two months into it
was about two and a half months,almost two and a half months in
, almost two and a half monthsin, and we started getting all
the news about what was going onand there was going to be
difficulties getting on flightsand all this kind of stuff was
(07:11):
happening.
Heidi (07:12):
ports were going to be closing tony didn't have his
passport at the time and thatthe passport office was on a
different island.
So they were talking that theywere going to be shutting down
the airports in the next coupleof days.
So I was was like you have togo get your passport, that's
thing number one, because we'renot going anywhere without that
(08:07):
no-transcript.
And then I panic and I keeptrying to call back, keep trying
to call back, and at some pointI just realized, okay, we're,
we're really stuck here andwe're we're riding this thing
out here.
And so I sent Tony an emaillike hey, just so you know, for
better or worse, we're ridingthis thing out here.
And so I sent Tony an emaillike hey, just so you know, for
better or worse, we're ridingthis thing out here.
(08:28):
I'm making myself a drink andI'm going down to the beach with
our dog so I went and got the.
Tony (08:33):
I went and got my passport , got on the next ferry back
over and, um, it ended up what athree-month trip was supposed
to be turned into about 15.
Heidi (08:44):
So a little year yeah year and a quarter and the first
three weeks were really likeeverything completely shut down,
everybody quarantined at homeand then kind of like after the
three weeks and we realizedthere weren't admissions in the
hospital and stuff and we're onan island.
So at that point we actuallywere like you know, maybe this
(09:05):
isn't a bad place to ride thisthing out.
Tony (09:08):
It wasn't the worst call that went dead.
I should say yeah, it was nice,it wasn't an issue.
Shawn (09:15):
What was the draw to the Philippines in the first place?
You said you'd gone there a fewtimes, so what was it about it?
Tony (09:21):
We decided when we quit our jobs that we were going to
travel for a year, and as we did, southeast Asia along with
Eastern Europe.
We ended up on this littleisland in the Philippines and
just really liked it.
We extended our stay.
We were supposed to be therefor, I want to say, maybe 10
days or something, and it turnedinto six weeks, and the only
reason we left was because wehad to go somewhere else.
Heidi (09:43):
So that was right, meeting people elsewhere in the
Philippines, so at the tail endof our trip.
Tony (09:48):
It was right at the tail end and so we knew we were going
to go back there after we gotback to the US and, you know,
took care of some things, and sowe just kept going back there.
One of the main draws, one ofthe main reasons, was a dog Roxy
adopted us while we were thereand we wanted, we just loved her
and we wanted to go back thereall the time.
But everything was wonderfulabout that island.
(10:09):
It was small, the people wereamazing, we made tons of friends
there in the short time that wewere there and we just really
liked it.
So we went back there.
We had eight month stays, sixmonth stays, a four month stay
and then the third or the lastone, which was supposed to be
three, turned into the COVID15-month trip.
Pavel (10:29):
Yeah, Was it mostly locals or expats that you made
friends with?
Heidi (10:35):
I feel like we had a pretty good mix of both.
They call the little villages,barangays, and the bar and guy
that we were in and the sort oflike resort that our long term
rental was at.
A lot of different families hadbeen working in the same place
(10:55):
and it was actually, I think,their family land that they sold
to the resort owners at onepoint, and so we got to know
those families really, reallywell and kind of a lot of the
kids ended up being our sort oflike nieces and nephews while we
were there.
Tony (11:06):
When you're there too, it's for length, certain lengths
of time, like when we went backfor eight months that I think
that was the first time we wentback.
You become part of thecommunity.
You, you, you know you hang outwith all the people that are
right in your area, whetherthey're expats or locals.
You go to the same markets andyou see the same people that are
right in your area, whetherthey're expats or locals.
You go to the same markets andyou see the same people that are
(11:26):
selling vegetables and youdevelop a relationship with them
over that length of time.
So it kind of felt like asecond home, even when we were
just going back there for thosedifferent lengths of time.
Heidi (11:38):
Yeah, the sense of community.
I think that that is the thingthat I'm always seeking, since
having the experience livingthere is like the community that
we had there right and likewith the expats too.
We made a lot of really goodfriends, for sure so it all kind
of just like happenedorganically.
Pavel (11:57):
You didn't have to like work for it or anything like
that, right?
Tony (12:01):
no, not really you, just the places that we started going
to.
If there was a place that wewent to that we just kind of
didn't had a bad vibe about,there was usually a reason
whether it was some of theexpats that were like oh I can
tell why, we don't know, there'snot a lot of other people that
go there, or there's a certainkind of group of expats that go
to that space, but that was inthat community.
(12:24):
There were you found, you foundyour people in the expat
community and then obviously the, the locals were just really
friendly, I mean yeah.
Filipino culture is it's veryfamily oriented.
Heidi (12:38):
It's the first place I think we were where people would
like they would pull you offthe street and invite you into
your, into their home yeah, ifyou're walking by, and they had
some dinner going on, theycalled you over to come in and
have some food and wouldn't takeno for an answer like or like
drinks a pleasant kidnapping.
Yeah, and like also, you arenot allowed to not eat or not
(13:01):
drink.
No, until they say you're done,you're eating and drinking.
Shawn (13:05):
It's required.
Tony (13:11):
Was the food in the Philippines like?
Would that be a culture shockfor Americans?
It depends on the American, Iguess.
I mean, there is a lot of stuffthat I think that some of the
things that would be weird forAmericans is like when you're
seeing a whole pig butcheredjust out on a table and there's
not really, and it's, it's sofresh.
There's nothing beingrefrigerated, it's just all
there, and if you go there anhour later, they're still
(13:33):
selling it, and so people wouldprobably lose their mind over
something like that.
Heidi (13:36):
And also like they use every single part of the animal,
which you know is a good thingthat I appreciate.
But you know, a skewer ofintestines might not appeal to
anybody, everybody.
Shawn (13:52):
People move out of the country for, or they make big
moves for a number of reasons,and most of the time, I think,
people have time to prepare andsometimes they don't.
And I think we're living througha period of time right now
where some people in the UnitedStates feel like they need to
make a move very quickly anddon't have a lot of time to
prepare, and I think the onlycorollary that I can think of of
the people that I know thathave lived through something
(14:15):
like that is the two of you withthis scenario where you know
you were planning to be therefor three months and then just
realized you were going to bestuck there indefinitely, and so
most of this series is focusedreally on if you have the
ability to plan to movesomewhere.
You know over the course of ayear or two, what are the steps
that you could take.
But, given kind of theexperience that you had having
(14:35):
to adjust to living someplaceindefinitely for a period of
time without having had the timeto prepare to actually do that,
what are some of the thingsthat you had to learn to do or
had to adjust to, simply becauseyou hadn't prepared to be there
for so long, and so you had tokind of level up pretty quickly.
Tony (14:54):
One of the issues.
I'd say that we well I wouldsay this first, having your own
business, all we really need isinternet and we can live
anywhere, so at the drop of ahat we could.
As long as I have a backpackand we have our laptops and that
sort of thing, we could reallyjust leave tonight and land
somewhere and make it work.
However, when you're on adifferent time zone, it's exact
(15:18):
opposite of our time zone,basically.
So all of the working hourswere at night, like overnight,
when I would normally besleeping, then that would be.
That was one of the biggestissues that I would say.
That had to get.
I'd have to get used to,because with our business we had
to.
You know, I had to be aroundduring business hours and it was
kind of tough to be awake atthree, four or five in the
(15:40):
morning, but the ease of thatwas that COVID hit so a lot of
our business I want to say 80%of our business dropped to zero.
So there wasn't a realadjustment that had to be made
other than well, we're notworking that much.
It's just they have this sayingthere called island time and
(16:02):
you just have to adjust to that,which is everything moves
slower and you're almost forcedto relax.
So I I would say there wasn't abig adjustment I think that we
had to deal with.
Heidi (16:13):
We were very fortunate that we were renting from tony's
brother and sister-in-law likein a bruv garage, like studio
apartment back so luckily, youknow, the rent was cheap enough
that we were able to keep payingfor both places while we were
stuck.
The other thing is I had hadjaw surgery and I remember I had
(16:37):
to like have the orthodontistoffice like mail me.
Do you remember that?
Tony (16:42):
oh yeah with your.
Heidi (16:43):
I'm trying to remember exactly what it was, but I was
supposed to be back for likecheckup appointments and so they
ended up I talked to them andthey were trying to work with me
and ended up we had to mail itand that was a whole ordeal too,
just trying to get somethingshipped, because you can't get
anything shipped directly to thelittle Island that we were on.
(17:03):
So we had to get it shipped toa neighboring island, to
somebody that we knew who thenhad to try to get it on a ferry
because nobody was allowed totravel between the islands at
that time.
So that was kind of interestinglike working.
Some of our medical needs.
Tony (17:19):
Yeah, I think, probably.
Yeah, not having it.
I don't think I had a dentistappointment for almost a year
and a half then.
Probably yeah Not having a Idon't think I had a dentist
appointment for almost a yearand a half then at that point.
So there was certain yeah, Ithink the medical normal
schedule of medical appointments.
Heidi (17:33):
But I think that changed for a lot of people during COVID
too.
Shawn (17:37):
What were you mailing back and forth?
Your jaw?
Heidi (17:39):
I needed retainer like these retainers, but I can't.
I can't even remember now itwas after my surgery, right so?
then it was, I think I hadbroken one of the retainers and
I was worried about like myteeth shifting and then also we
couldn't get floss there, and soI I think I did up asking the
(18:00):
dental office can we also justamazon some other stuff that we
don't, that we can't find hereor that we need?
And there were a couple otherthings that we just like we
couldn't find and so like theywere kind enough to throw these
extra things in that package forus when they mailed it.
Yeah, but yeah, even findinglike a shipping company it was,
(18:21):
that was very interesting forsure.
Shawn (18:24):
I'm trying to think of, like if you lived on an island,
like what could you use as floss?
And the first thing that comesto mind is like coconut fibers.
Heidi (18:31):
I know my hair, your hair Not thick enough, it breaks.
Pavel (18:38):
No, I used no floss when I was growing up in Russia.
Maybe that's why my teeth wereso messed up we're so messed up.
Heidi (18:56):
See, the problem is is I.
It's like an addiction for me,like that feeling of my being
clean, and once I have it itmakes me crazy, and also my
teeth are very close together,so I think maybe it feels worse
for me than other people it'salso important in those
situations to maintain thoselittle, like you know,
comfortable routines that arehelping you to stay sane and
otherwise very unusualenvironment.
(19:18):
So it does make sense, yeah itwas interesting too, because
there were which we may bedealing with here soon, um, but
lots of shortages on the islandbecause boats weren't moving
stuff around as much.
So it would be like, you know,like you just couldn't find
certain things for like weeks ormonths at a time, or like to
(19:41):
make the price of tomatoes waslike crazy, because that's
something that got shipped inand and so you know, it was just
interest, an interesting thingto live through.
Tony (19:51):
Oddly enough, one of the biggest issues was there was no
tonic on the for the gin andtonics, and I'm not joking, that
was like there was a shortageof tonic and someone we would
text each other if some storehad it, or we would buy up like
all of the tonic cans of tonicwater and just with our friends,
because, or the bars, or wewould buy up like all of the
tonic cans of tonic water andjust with our friends because,
(20:12):
or the bars that we would go tobecause it was it was in such a
short supply, yeah, but they didhad a gin oh there was plenty
of gin I mean
Heidi (20:22):
it's not.
Shawn (20:23):
It's like green spirit, but they flavor in flavor it's
flavored out island gin yes uh,I mean, this actually brings up
a really interesting point,because I think there are some
places that people considermoving that are remote and maybe
less developed than they mightbe used to, and I don't know
(20:48):
that we always know what we'regetting ourselves into if we
move to a place that has maybe ashaky infrastructure or doesn't
have the same types of supplythat we're used to in the United
States or whatever.
So how did you I mean, you'vekind of talked a little bit
about it, but how did you adjustto life where you couldn't get
what you wanted, or you knowthings might go down, or you
(21:10):
know just generally island life,which is just very different
from being in a very developed,stable, at least until recently,
country.
Heidi (21:20):
Yeah, I mean we had never really dealt with regular water
shortages, like we were drivingto a spring and filling up
buckets for like basic things.
Yeah, it's still a problem onthe island because they keep
developing even though thereisn't the infrastructure, like
with.
They call them brownouts.
They're really blackouts, it'sjust a nicer way of putting it.
(21:43):
Like it'll end eventually andthey're scheduled, they're
scheduled so it's ones thatsurprise you?
Tony (21:49):
yeah, but there's usually if you.
You hear about them ahead oftime sometimes, but other ones
just happen and you just getused to it.
You, I mean, make sure you'rewhen it's on, make sure anything
you need charge it up, makesure you have your stuff charged
but also the electricity itselfis not great and has damaged
our computers and so yeah,there's like surges and we
(22:13):
finally realized we had to get.
Heidi (22:15):
We had a surge protector.
Tony (22:16):
It had a little needle that would like, you'd see them
needle bump bouncing and you'dhear it clicking when there was
a surge.
Some days it would just beclicking all this time.
Sometimes not, but you justkind of adapt to it and usually
going back and forth there wewould adapt relatively quickly
to it.
But with all of those sort ofthings comes living you know 30
(22:40):
paces from the ocean, where yougo and sit there and watch the
most amazing sunsets everysingle night walk on the beach,
every you walk on the beach allday and you go during high tide,
you go into the water and youjust sit there and soak and
there's not a soul aroundbecause it's during covid.
Heidi (22:58):
So that was very cool.
We got to go to like places inthe island that normally would
be full of people and actually,yeah, be like the only people
there, which was very, very cool.
Tony (23:08):
It was interesting because it felt like it was the very
first time we went, which it wasvery different than when we
initially went, that threemonths, where we ended up
getting stuck there with havingso few people there.
It felt like we were back inthat very first time we went,
which was, I want to say, 10.
Yeah, it was.
It was 20 2012, so it was likea you trip back in time.
Heidi (23:32):
There was, there were no people there no tourists, no
tourists, like only the fewpeople that got stuck there.
Most people found a way out,but yeah.
Then it got to a certain pointwhere we could have gotten back,
but we didn't want to anymoreno like well, we're gonna stay a
little bit longer.
Tony (23:49):
No, we'll wait, we'll wait , we'll wait, we'll wait.
We saw everything that wasgoing on in the us and we're
like we're in no big hurry toget and also the travel through
the philippines and through asiaback to the us.
Heidi (24:00):
Like we waited until it got a little easier to do that,
because otherwise you're havingto stop and test and do all
these things to get to the nextplace.
Like every step of travel waslike another quarantine and we
just didn't want to have to dealwith all that.
But I would say for me, I loveisland life and so I always have
(24:22):
a harder time.
I'd take the lack of water,lack of electricity, lack of
internet any day.
I'd take all thoseinconveniences versus like when
I come back here and I'm justlike overwhelmed with choice and
there's so much happening allthe time.
I think that was a really,really hard adjustment after
(24:42):
those 15 months of like very,very peaceful, quiet, simple
living and coming back here.
Pavel (24:51):
Would you have considered like retiring there or stay
there forever?
Heidi (24:58):
I could live there forever.
But Tony, it's not really.
He needs a little more culture,some live music, some art.
I feel like you get reallyculture starved when we're there
and you get more frustratedwith some of the that's.
Tony (25:15):
That's true.
I mean I especially.
I mean I feel as as I'm gettinga little bit older, I'm I'm
needing less of it and as longas I don't need to run a
business, as we don't need torun a business, that's such a
stress when I'm there Becausewhen the brownouts come, if I'm
uploading files or things likethat that need that sort of
(25:37):
thing, there's an added stressto running a business.
When you're on a completelyopposite time zone and also with
sketchy internet, it just addsthat level of anxiety.
Shawn (25:53):
I want to kind of circle back to this idea that you
brought up about.
All the choice that you have inthe States but, you know, is, I
guess, denied you if you live ina place like an island, in the
remote part of the, in a remotepart of the world, because and
this is something that Pavel andI talk about quite a bit, and I
think it's to some degree oneof the reasons that people look
to the United States as being agreat place to go or a place to
(26:16):
aspire to live because we haveso much choice.
But what I found when I travelis that and I often hear from
people, if I'm going to gosomeplace, especially an island
or a place that's very remote inthe world for an extended
period of time is aren't yougoing to miss having, you know,
fill in the blank, same daydelivery of things?
Aren't you going to miss havingAmazon?
Aren't you going to miss havingCostco or something?
(26:38):
And I have found in my travelthat I do think I'm going to
miss those things until I'mthere and I realized how
stressful having so much choiceactually is.
Does that make?
Heidi (26:50):
sense.
Yes, that is totally like Ilike not having a lot of choices
, like it's like oh, they don'thave that at the market, so
we're gonna have this instead.
You know, like I almost getoverwhelmed, whereas if it's
already narrowed down for me,that's why I'm kind of thankful
for my gluten allergy, in a wayLike okay, it takes out at least
(27:12):
part of the menu for me, so Ican't, I can't even look at that
much of it.
So it's narrowed down to thesemany things.
Like I don't know, maybe it'sbecause I grew up on a farm and
I didn't have a lot of choice inmy life as a kid that I just
find it overwhelming and I'dalmost rather just have fewer
options and, like you said, afresh market.
(27:34):
It's like this is what's inseason now, so that's what I
want to be eating.
Tony (27:38):
That's.
It's funny what you just said.
There too.
That makes me think of whenwe're here in the U?
S, we're talking about oh,there's a new season of
something on Netflix, or a newseason of something on Hulu.
When we're're on the island,we're excited because mango
season is coming, or dragonfruit season, or passion fruit
season.
Those are the seasons we talkabout.
On the island, we're not.
We don't care about Netflix orany of those.
(28:01):
What season of television is on,it's all about the season of
the, the fruit that's coming outor different fish or they're
going to be coming through andthey're going to be catching all
of this different fish now andit's like we can't wait for that
season to start happening.
So it's a very different seasonsort of excitement.
Pavel (28:22):
Yeah, it's like you're not wasting all your attention
and energy on trying to figurethings out and you're able to
like concentrate more and enjoymore with what is available and
be a little bit more in syncwith the environment that you
are in.
And that's what's so beautifulis that you were immersed in the
(28:45):
community and you were able tolike find the ways of how to get
certain stuff from the otherislands.
So you kind of like yeah, likethat's one of the things that
here in the states is like weare losing or lost is that sense
of community and ability tolike work together on getting
(29:05):
something, because everything iskind of available.
You know, you can just placethe order and get something like
the next day or the same day ifyou pay a little extra yeah,
whereas, like tony was saying, alot of the local friends we
made what was like the lady thatwe bought our fish from?
Heidi (29:23):
you know a few times a week we became really good
friends with her and her wholefamily and we're still in touch
with that and like the littlemarket around the corner and
like certain little places whereit's just because you are
interacting with people all thetime.
Tony (29:39):
I think probably you'll appreciate this too, because I
know you're as an artist doinghere.
I do a lot more work on mycomputer.
I create a lot more on mycomputer.
When we were on the island, Ihad my computer there, but there
were so many other things.
I found myself doing a lot morecraft type hands-on art rather
than digital art.
(30:01):
So there's a lot ofavailability to different things
that I don't have here and youjust start crafting things and
making things and um, it's, it'skind of from an artistic
standpoint as well, it's, it'svery, it's very different, it's
a very different atmosphere.
Pavel (30:17):
So you just kind of go with it yeah, make do with what
you have, as opposed to here yougo to michael's and there's
like such a huge diversity ofthings that you can get and make
.
And then like at some point I'mlike, oh my god, I have too
much crap, uh, and I'm notactually creating anything, and
so I stopped buying and I'm like, oh, I just need to use what I
(30:41):
have.
I need to use, like the yarn orwhatever the stones or like the
paints that I have, and justmake do with what I have, as
opposed to continue to like buyand buy shit and not using it.
Yeah, yeah, that's, yeah,that's it.
That's a good point.
You can.
You can be a better artist bybeing stuck on a little Island,
right?
You also can have a like abetter, maybe, imagination,
(31:04):
because you you don't have thatNetflix to distract, distract
yourself with all this.
Tony (31:09):
It's forced creativity.
You're forced to really becreative because you're all of.
Heidi (31:15):
Your assets are much, much fewer yeah, and even
cooking is a more creativeexercise is like we don't have
an oven there.
You have two little gas burnersand it's like a top chef
challenge.
You have this, this, this andthis makes your ingredients you
have to work with today.
Shawn (31:33):
I mean, it's actually a fascinating kind of indictment
about convenience culture,because I do think in the United
States we do have this ideathat if we have to experience
scarcity or if we can't get whatwe want, then that's an, that's
an inconven, inconvenience, andwe're not living our best life
and something is wrong orsomething is backward or
(31:53):
something is underdeveloped.
But I also wonder if I supposealong the lines of what you're
saying is if what we're alsolosing is what scarcity gives us
, which is creativity andinvention and a certain amount
of almost like survivalmentality that just gets lost
when we have everything at ourfingertips at all times.
(32:15):
You know we have stopped usingsignificant parts of our brains.
Heidi (32:18):
Yeah, and you need to rely on other people when I
don't know, the sense ofcommunity was just a lot greater
, I think, when you can doeverything, like you said,
online, you can buy yourselfonline.
You're just kind of rushingfrom thing to thing, like it's.
I just feel like you're notreally living as much as like on
(32:41):
that Island where you're,you're having moments with
people all day long.
Tony (32:48):
You have endless options here in the US but you lose all
human interaction because youhave those options.
When we're on the island, youlean on other people.
You actually know, oh, thesepeople have, like our fish lady,
that's where we.
Oh, she has this so we can goto her for this.
And you talk about passionfruit.
We had a friend who had apassion fruit tree and when that
(33:08):
season was in she had more thanshe knew what to deal with or
to do with.
So we would go there and shewould just she would basically
give it to you because she hadtoo much.
So you kind of lean oncommunity a lot more than you do
.
You know Amazon to just go fillyour cart, ship shipping, boom
and you're.
Pavel (33:28):
You know you're done, but it's just such a a lack of
interaction and a lack ofcommunity yeah, now, even when,
like door dash, somebodydelivers food, I feel awkward
opening the door while thepeople are still in the car
because I don't know, forwhatever reason, I just feel
(33:50):
weird interacting with thesepeople.
So I wait until they leave andthen I open the door like a
weirdo and grab the things, thedoor and get inside.
But that's what I became andit's so.
It's so weird.
Like I yeah, I used to alsolike in New Zealand was a lot
(34:12):
more social and here, like I'mmuch more like.
Sometimes I'm afraid to like bea little more open with people
because I don't know if I'mgoing to offend somebody with
something and everyone is afraidthat they might offend you with
saying something, and so youjust like stay in your cocoon,
(34:34):
uh, all alone with your facelessamazon and door dash deliveries
that suddenly became bleak andgloom no, I told tony I was like
I needed to learn how to people, how to be human in the U S.
Heidi (34:53):
Again, like you said, it's just different.
Like, like you said, peoplehave their guards and walls up
and it's like I don't.
I think they don't really wantto interact with people, so I
don't want to.
You know, pop their bubble ifthey were not wanting.
And I mean people just don'teven make eye contact a lot of
times.
You know, heads are down in thephones or whatever.
(35:14):
It's just a different way oflife.
Shawn (35:19):
I had a Amazon package delivered a few days ago and I
so you know they take a pictureand then send it to you and they
deliver.
But I was just I saw themcoming up, so I opened the door
and the box was on the step.
And they know they take apicture and then send it to you
and they deliver.
But I was just I saw themcoming up so I opened the door
and the box was on the step andthey were about to take a
picture and I was like, oh, Ican just take it, it's fine.
And they're like no, no, no, Ihave to take a picture.
And it was.
I kind of stood there for asecond.
Then I was like do you, do youwant me to shut it's?
Tony (35:44):
like getting caught in the Google camera.
You're out in your yard and youfind yourself on Google Maps or
Google Images.
Heidi (35:51):
I thought you were going to say like do you want a photo
of me holding it?
Pavel (35:55):
Yeah, Thumbs up Smile.
Shawn (36:00):
But I did actually, pavel , I wanted to swing back and ask
you because we were talkingabout earlier preparing to move
and you've made two moves andthey were very different one to
New Zealand and then one to theStates, and you at least the one
to the States, you had somesignificant time to kind of
prepare for that.
So how do you feel about orwhat do you think the benefit is
(36:22):
to having some time to prepare,or what is preparing to move to
another country look like, asopposed to you know, as Heidi
and Tony said, having to adapton the ground unexpectedly and
(36:52):
be able to like part on yourterms with your stuff that you
know that you're not gonna takewith yourself.
Pavel (36:55):
So you have time to plan what you're gonna get rid of,
give away to friends and or sell, and you know what you're gonna
be able to take with yourselfbecause you have limited amount
of luggage or, you know,obviously can pay more to get a
container or something.
But I didn't have that muchstuff or that much stuff that I
(37:17):
was attached to.
So, yeah, it's just the abilityto, uh, to plan what you're
going to pack with yourself andplan all the things that you
need to wrap up.
Like you know, the bills changethe name on the water bill or
(37:39):
the internet bill and allowwhoever you live with some time
to, you know, find a newflatmates and stuff like that.
So it's just, I guess, theability to plan, plan your move
and not feel rushed, becausesometimes people, when they rush
(38:04):
, you just have to you.
You might, you might not beable to get the benefits of, you
know, getting some cash foryour stuff and you just have to
get, get it to the goodwill orsomething was it easier or
harder the second time that youdid a big relocation?
(38:27):
I think it was easier because,first of all, I was moving to a
place where I know somebody andI am looking forward to live
with that person.
When the first time I was moving, I kind of like and I knew that
(38:49):
I only have, you know, thisamount that I can spend and I
have enough money for, like,let's say, three, four months.
So it was a little bit morestressful but it helped to kind
of like prepare the worst casescenario with, like, still
(39:09):
keeping my job in, you know, inMoscow where I was working.
So that kind of helped you.
You always have to create foryourself like a backup plan Okay
, I'm moving, what's the worstcase scenario if it's not going
to work out?
And you know, write, write itdown, plan it.
(39:34):
And the other thing that youhave to, or like I had to come
up with is, like, what do I doto, like you know, be able to
stick around and to prevent theworst case scenario from
happening?
So that's why, you know, I waslooking for a job, I was going
to classes on how to do this,you know how to write the resume
(39:57):
and stuff, and I was networking.
So it's, I would say, the mainthing is just to develop like,
okay, what's the worst casescenario and what will I do if
that is going to happen?
Shawn (40:13):
For all three of you because you've had to kind of
confront this has moving to somedegree, for this is more
specific to you, pavel, but itplayed out differently for you,
heidi and Tony.
Moving you had to shed a lot ofbelongings and kind of start
over.
Unless you do have like acontainer ship or whatever and
you're moving everything thatyou own someplace, you're really
(40:35):
moving with a handful ofsuitcases.
As americans that meansprobably quite a bit of
downsizing.
Has that changed how you thinkabout the accumulation of stuff
and things?
Heidi (40:46):
I think it has um, and also another helpful part is
when we came back here after our15 months in the Philippines,
we were still intending to splitour time between here and there
, and so we actually left quitea lot of stuff like in bins with
a friend and then when werealized like it just wasn't
(41:08):
going to work and we needed tostay here, you realize this
stuff that we thought was soimportant that we needed to hold
on to like I couldn't evenreally think what was in the
bins, and so we just asked ourfriends can you just go through
it?
And if there's anything thatlooks like it's important, just
hold on to that, but everythingelse to just get rid of it.
And I would like to almost dothe same thing here, because we
(41:34):
we also have moved a lot overthe time that we've been
together and lived all over thecountry, and you know we were
bringing this tote from thisstate to the state and this
state to the state.
Like I almost would love tojust do the same thing have
somebody else go through it andthrow most of it away.
Tony (41:54):
There's just something about doing it yourself that
feels so much harder that I wishI could have brought home with
me but obviously I couldn't geton the plane with it for obvious
reasons was the knife that Ibought there that I used to cut
(42:17):
open.
We used to get it's a machete.
It's a machete.
We used to get coconuts and itwas the knife that I cut open my
coconuts with and we would getfresh coconut water all the time
and it was the best and that'sthe only thing that I'm like.
Someone has that it's probablyour friend Craig, and I'm like
(42:39):
that was the one thing that Ireally prized there, like I
loved using that and but it's,it's true, we left so many
things there clothes, pans,different things that we really,
you know, we really were likewe're going to hang on to this
stuff.
It's all gone and it's.
It's not a big deal.
I feel like we're getting tothat point here, too, where
we're downsizing even more here.
(43:00):
Even with my records, even withHeidi's books, we're downsizing
a lot of this stuff justbecause we may want to get on
out at the drop of a hat.
Heidi (43:11):
It's more of an anchor.
I think that's what we'rerealizing is the stuff is an
anchor and the less you'reattached to it, the better.
Yeah, because, yeah, like, ifsomething happens, I think we
could figure out a way to be outof here pretty quickly if we
needed to.
Tony (43:27):
I know that I could fit everything I would need to take
with me in a single backpack ifI wanted to.
I really could do it and itwould be OK.
Shawn (43:37):
I mean, that's something I learned.
I don't I don't want to say thehard way, it's just something I
learned and maybe this is kindof along the same lines as what
Heidi was saying which is likethe times that I've had to leave
and it wasn't necessarilyinternationally, but you know.
So I left a relationship once.
It pretty much left everythingbehind and then started over.
And then I had big chunks oftime when I was in New Zealand
(44:00):
and I was living out of just onesuitcase.
Essentially, I thought at thetime that I was leaving all
kinds of stuff behind, but veryquickly I just learned how to
live with what I have and pickedup along the way the other
necessities.
But, Pavel, you come from adifferent background, which is
you kind of grew up with acertain amount of scarcity.
So I'm wondering what yourrelationship to things and stuff
(44:23):
is now that you have access tothings that you've never
actually had access to prior.
Pavel (44:29):
Well, I'm definitely compensating here in the States,
but I do agree that all thestuff that we accumulate is kind
of the anchor to the past thatwe hold on to.
I cannot, like I moved, alsolike so many times while I, well
(44:51):
, I lived in russia, because Imoved from small town to a
bigger town, then to a largertown, but I cannot remember of
any particular thing or anobject that you know I miss, I'm
sure, like if I would remembersomething and it would bring
back a certain memoriesassociated with that object, I
(45:15):
would be like oh, that that wasnice, but I can't live without
it.
I mean now certainly like weaccumulated a lot of records,
books and and stuff I, I, I thatI would feel sad to to part
with.
I'm definitely going to betaking my peggy lee collection
(45:37):
of the records, like, yeah, it's, I mean Shawn first, then the
cat, then probably peggy leecollection, then my, then my
notebooks, like you know, olddiaries and stuff.
And then maybe some of mypaintings or, you know, drawings
(45:59):
, but yeah, the rest, likeclothes you can kind of like
very easily replace.
So hopefully I can fit it allin one suitcase.
Okay, maybe one and a half.
It's ideal, but I certainly,you know it's not the end of the
world is, if I'm not going toget my Peggy Lee collection,
we're still Spotify that we canlive by.
(46:21):
And now thinking about likesome of the drawings or
paintings you know, I guess Ican take good pictures of it,
because it's just also kind oflike a memory, the snapshots of
like a certain feelings oremotions that I had when I would
make something.
But yeah, stuff is just ananchor, it's just an extra
(46:44):
weight.
That is that is holding us to toour past experiences, and I I
had that period of time where Iloved going to estate sales.
But every time you go to some ofthe estate sales and you
realize, okay, well, probablythe person who lived here died.
(47:04):
Uh, well, 100 of a time,probably, yeah, and you go for
some of the houses and they likeso cluttered, there's like so
much stuff and it's so heavy,and you get a headache almost in
some of these houses and you'relike, yeah, like that person
never cleaned out their garage,like you know, it's just so much
(47:26):
stuff.
Was that person happy, I don'tknow.
And it was always like aslightly different feeling when
you're going through a house andit's kind of like more airy,
cleaner in a way, less lessstuff for junk.
Um, so I I mean, you know wecome, we're born naked and we
(47:47):
die naked, so why bother, youknow, wasting energy on trying
to hold on to the objects youhold on to people and your
friends and family and therelationships, and they usually,
like you know, weightless,weightless.
Aaron Martin (48:05):
Yeah.
Heidi (48:06):
Well, and you have.
You also felt like the thingsthat you hold on to and bring to
the new place Don't like.
A lot of the things that Ibrought don't work in the new
place.
You know what I mean.
So I'm like why did I move onto this?
Why did I move this?
It doesn't fit in the new placeor the new life, or you know.
(48:28):
So I think I'm'm gonna startseeing it more as an opportunity
, like, okay, we're gonna let goof the things accumulated here
and we will find new things inthe next place that we like just
as much.
Tony (48:41):
It'll be different, but it'll be fine we keep bringing
things up from downstairs,especially now as it's getting
warmer, and we put a whole boxor two boxes of things out by
the road and everything is gonewithin about maybe 45 minutes to
an hour and it's.
It's a great way to just purgethings.
(49:02):
And I swear if I needed to, wecould do that with everything we
own, and you could just becompletely clean.
Heidi (49:10):
But, like you said, it's nice to get some money for some
stuff.
Pavel (49:13):
Exactly.
Heidi (49:14):
Yeah.
Pavel (49:15):
Because, Shawn, like yesterday or yesterday, you went
through this box full of stuffthat was in the basement for a
while.
How did it make you feel?
Shawn (49:34):
while.
How did it make you feel?
Yeah, it was so it was.
What it was is a bunch of binsthat I have taken with me over
the last 20 years of moves thatI have never opened.
I've just taken them with mewhen I move and then put them in
a closet and then when I moveagain, I take them again and
move them.
So I went through them and, uh,I mean, there was some memory
stuff there, but like a lot ofit was just stuff that I've
collected and I was kind of likeI don't remember what this is
(49:55):
or this is no longer, it doesn't, it's not applicable anymore,
and I probably threw out 90% ofthe stuff.
I went through like four binsand you know I'm down to like
half a bin.
There was some memory stuff inthere, like photos and stuff,
but other than that it's justjunk that I've accumulated over
time that at some point Ithought was really important but
(50:15):
is not anymore.
But I actually was having aconversation with somebody
recently and we were talkingabout what is something that you
feel like would be a realheartbreak if you did have to
give up, if you moved.
Another way to ask the questionis what is something that you
would feel like would be reallyimportant to take with you of
the things that you have.
And I guess, relationshipsaside, obviously I think I would
(50:40):
miss my book collection, whichis not a great answer, because
that's not easy to take with you.
It's highly curated and it'svery old.
I would miss it.
But what would be the top ofyour list?
Again, relationships and petsaside, what's at the top of your
list for something that wouldjust you feel like you would
really want to take with you ifyou moved abroad?
Tony (51:01):
Outside of a digital thing , like I'm saying, because I've
taken so many photos at so manyconcerts and I've taken so many
photos of our travels that wedid.
But that's all digital kind ofstuff.
If we're talking about anactual physical, physical thing,
(51:21):
it's.
It's kind of difficult becauseI've even said I, I, I would be
able to, I would be able to letgo of all of the records I have,
even though they all havespecific, I would say,
sentimental meaning.
I would be able to leave all ofthat.
But I would say, maybe some ofthe very first, like some of my
(51:47):
old drawings that I did as a kid, I flipped through them every
once in a while.
There's something about that,just because it was kind of like
the birth of all of what cameafterwards and there's a lot of
inspiration and there is a lotof connection with those very
first drawings, from to myparents, to things like that
(52:09):
that are very, very sentimental.
So I'd probably want to grabsome of some of that kind of
stuff and just a few.
I actually had a conversationwith a friend who just went
through a yearbook of his and herealized that I did some
drawings in the yearbook.
I don't have any of myyearbooks.
I don't have any of this stufffrom high school anymore.
(52:29):
I remember when I threw it awayand I just recently because one
of my friends who passed away,a good friend of mine, who have
drawn in my yearbook and writtenall these things I really I was
really sad for a moment that Icouldn't look at those again.
I wish I could have, but thething is I remember all of it.
(52:51):
I would want to have it justfor a moment to look through,
but then I wouldn't at thoseagain.
I wish I could have, but thething is I remember all of it.
I would want to have it justfor a moment to look through,
but then I wouldn't need itagain.
But the memory is all there.
So that's kind of it's.
It's almost immaterial, like Iwouldn't have to look at it,
have it physically, but just thememory of that stuff is
something.
Heidi (53:08):
Just to look at it one more time would be fun I'm like
you, Shawn, my books and like,like you, I I've curated and
tony's saying I'm slowly gettingI'm very, very slowly getting
rid of a couple books here andthere, but I think as long as I
felt they went to the rightplace, I could be okay with it.
(53:29):
Like, if I found somebody thatwanted to take my books for
their library or something likethat, I think then I would feel
okay about it.
Shawn (53:39):
Pasha, what do you think?
Pavel (53:41):
Yeah, just just, I guess, my diaries because I have some
from when I was like what, 10,12.
And now that I'm looking atlike the first edition from the
50s of Dr Zhivago, I'm likeshould I take it?
But then probably like, nah, Ican, yeah, I can part with it as
(54:06):
well.
Yeah, I think, just some ofthose very intimate diaries and
you know, those notebooks thatcome from the past and they're
fairly light it's.
Heidi (54:20):
It's not that much weight , but yeah and I do have letters
and drawings from tony, so Iwould keep those.
Pavel (54:30):
Yeah, do you go for them often?
Heidi (54:34):
I think because I put them in like safekeeping, like
I'll come across like a littlestash of them every once in a
while, or like I know thatthere's tons in the basement too
right now.
But yeah, those I'd probablystill hold on to.
Shawn (54:47):
Would you ever consider moving abroad again?
Heidi (54:50):
For sure.
Tony (54:50):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and even more so now it's.
Heidi (54:55):
It's one of the things it's tough because we do really
like where we are now and againwe finally feel like we have
that sense of community herewhich took a while to build any
of this right now.
Tony (55:06):
I mean, obviously we're all on the same page here.
Any of this could just turn ona dime and, you know, really get
nasty.
So, and not that it isn'talready, but, um, yeah, I would.
I would be able to the drop ofa hat.
Like I said, I could throwenough things in a backpack that
I could just leave this placeand be gone and just disappear.
(55:29):
I would be more than more thanokay with it.
Heidi (55:32):
We could, it'd be sad I'd take a bunch of pictures.
Yeah, and I guess I've donethat.
Every time I've moved and feltlike I loved, you know like
things about the place that Ilived, I always made sure I took
photos of everything, how I hadit, before I like start packing
stuff up.
Shawn (55:51):
Have you thought about where you'd go or places you'd
consider?
Heidi (55:55):
I feel like it's all pretty open.
Definitely the we'd have tolook at who's accepting us and
you know like we could takeadvantage of like nomad visas
and like different, I think,working visas and probably even
like possibly early retirementor those kind of things where
(56:17):
you have to have X amount inyour savings account.
I think we have lots of options.
I can't say that there's anycertain place that I'm
especially drawn to.
Tony (56:27):
Like some of those things you see online where it's like,
oh, you can, for one dollar youcan have, you can buy a place in
italy in this area.
You see those things.
No, I I think that, um,probably the one of the
prerequisites would be somewherewith a warm climate.
I think it's always somethingthat is kind of, you know, at
(56:48):
the top the list, the body ofwater of some kind within near
proximity is is essential.
And again, like the way thingsare going, obviously Heidi has a
great point, like someone thatwill accept us, you know,
because that that's getting tobe more and more of a true, I
(57:10):
guess, concern.
Yeah, that as long as someonewill, will take us and I feel
there's certain places that arevery much like, come here, we'll
accept you open arms, which isyou know what we always want to,
how we want to live our lifewith everybody else that you
know we come across.
So, but, yeah, how about youguys?
Would you, would you be willingto do it and where would you go
(57:32):
?
Pavel (57:33):
I would say that we would go back to New Zealand because
that's uh, that's my second home.
Uh, I would call Russia myfirst home, obviously because
it's my homeland.
I would call New Zealand mysecond home just because of the
emotional connection and everytime, in the saddest periods, it
(58:02):
was always the memories of NewZealand that, you know, helped
me through and that's the placewhere I draw most of the
inspiration from.
So I would say, like that wouldbe our main option, because I
do have a residency there and wedo have some lovely and
(58:24):
beautiful friends there that Ihope will be excited about us
being around.
So, yeah, that would be ouroption.
And yeah, I do agree with youEverything, the things are going
to shit and you know it's notpleasant to live in a constant
(58:47):
turmoil which, you know,everything seems to become.
Shawn (58:54):
Yeah, I mean all of that right, like obviously, one of
the things that I'm learningthrough this series is the
options that people haveAmericans have available to them
, so that makes things moreattractive.
I didn't know how easy it wasto get residency in Costa Rica,
but I also wonder if I couldlive.
You know, I want a warm place.
I just don't know if I could dothat year round.
(59:16):
I do like my seasons.
I didn't realize how easy itwas to get a visa to France and
that's interesting to me, but Ialso think, like my heart is in
New Zealand and that's probablyour most likely option.
Pavel (59:31):
That's probably our most likely option, and who knows?
Heidi (59:37):
maybe Heidi and Tony would be interested in exploring
that option too.
Well, we'll definitely bevisiting.
Aaron Martin (59:41):
Yeah.
Shawn (59:42):
Heidi, Tony, thank you for taking the time.
I enjoyed the conversation.
Heidi (59:47):
We enjoyed it too.
Thanks, Shawn and Pavel.
Tony (59:49):
Yeah, thank you so much.
This was fun to kind of talkabout this stuff again.
It's been a minute, thank you.
Shawn (59:56):
Life in the Philippines may move slower, sometimes
frustratingly, so you won'talways get what you want in two
clicks or two hours, but that'skind of the point.
When you trade the constantbuzz of American urgency for an
island pace where time ismeasured in tides, meals are
shared without rush and there'sno pressure to monetize every
(01:00:18):
waking moment, something shifts.
You start to notice things yourbreath, your neighbors, your
own thoughts.
Living without constantabundance doesn't feel like
deprivation, it feels likeenough, and in a world obsessed
with more, that's quietlyradical and deeply good for the
(01:00:38):
soul.
Alright, next week, on LeavingAmerica, we're going to take a
closer look at theEnglish-speaking options Canada,
new Zealand and Australia.
If you're an Americaninterested in moving somewhere
that seems faintly American,these countries offer stability,
safety and a culture that mightfeel surprisingly familiar.
(01:00:59):
This is leaving America,because sometimes home isn't
where you started.
The Thank you.
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