January 20, 2025 • 49 mins
In this special episode of Deep Dive on this Trump Inauguration Day, we revisit the final episode of our limited series "After America" and ask - how does a nation rebuild itself after falling under authoritarian rule? In the series finale of After America, we take you through the harrowing aftermath of an imagined Trump's second presidential term, where democratic institutions were eroded, civil liberties dismantled, and marginalized communities oppressed. We examine the monumental task of transitioning back to democracy and preventing future authoritarian takeovers.
We imagine how this era of expanded executive control would eventually collapse under its own corruption and the public’s rising discontent. And, we shed light on how transitional justice mechanisms, such as truth commissions and criminal trials, can pave the way for a reconciled and democratic future.
But history has its lessons, and so we remember the failures of post-Civil War America, where the lack of transitional justice led to systemic racism and political polarization we're still grappling with today. So, we discuss the necessity of truth-seeking, reparations, and institutional reforms to transitional justice and the establishment of an enduring and healthy democracy. And, we close by emphasizing the importance of vigilance and proactive efforts to safeguard democracy against erosion, underscoring the need for systemic reforms and citizen engagement to ensure a resilient democratic future.
Guests: Dr. David Faris, Dr. Monika Nalepa, Dr. Alastair Smith, and Stephen Marche.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Shawn (00:00):
Hey folks, welcome to a special episode of Deep Dive.
So here we are.
The moment has arrived.
It is Monday, january 20th 2025.
Trump is sworn into officetoday and he has promised shock
and awe.
His words in his first weekMass deportations, trade wars,
pardons of traitors and more.
So we can expect that life willget incredibly hard for a lot
(00:23):
of people pretty quickly, andthat'll just be the start.
As we know, trump is animated byauthoritarianism, fear,
violence, humiliation, chaos.
It's almost surreal,unbelievable, to consider the
President of the United Stateswith this objective.
None of this bodes well for theAmerican Democratic experiment.
So today I'm revisiting thefinal episode of my limited
(00:47):
series After America that ranlast year and imagined how
democracy could fail in theUnited States.
In this final episode, Ioutlined how authoritarianism
could take hold under a secondTrump presidency in very vivid
detail.
The introduction to the episodelays out how it could happen.
The remainder of the episode,though.
How it could happen.
The remainder of the episode,though, imagines the world after
(01:08):
Trumpism fails and how werebuild a stronger, more
resilient American democracy.
And this is my message of hopeto you on this admittedly very
scary, very dark day Take careof each other, folks day.
(01:30):
Take care of each other.
Folks.
Imagine this America.
The streets are quiet, with theeerie stillness of a country
that has just emerged from yearsof authoritarian rule.
It's a country exhausted byrepression, where neighbors eye
each other with suspicion,unsure who had supported the
regime and who had resisted.
Trump's second presidential termmarked the beginning of
America's descent intoauthoritarianism.
(01:52):
The regime, propped up byloyalists, rigged elections and
relentless propaganda,maintained control by sabotaging
democratic institutions,instilling fear and crushing
dissent.
Under this regime, entirecommunities were torn apart.
Immigrants, racial minoritiesand LGBTQ plus citizens were
(02:15):
scapegoated and subjected todiscriminatory laws and policies
.
People lived under constantsurveillance, with militarized
police patrolling the streets,arresting anyone who dared
challenge the state.
Neighbors were encouraged toreport on each other.
Civil liberties wereeviscerated.
But now the authoritarianregime has fallen, the dictator
(02:38):
is gone and the scars of thoseyears are not just emotional but
institutional.
Years are not just emotionalbut institutional.
Democratic structures werehollowed out, courts packed with
loyalists and laws rewritten tobenefit the few at the expense
of the many.
But now, after years ofhopelessness, this moment
presents an opportunity, anopening to rebuild democracy
(03:06):
stronger and more resilient thanbefore, to remake and
reconstruct the institutionsthat were dismantled, to restore
the rule of law and to createsystems that protect against
future authoritarianism.
The country must also grapplewith the need for accountability
how to confront those whoperpetuated the regime's abuses
while fostering reconciliation.
The challenge is monumental.
What does this even look likeand how, after years of
(03:30):
democratic dismantling ofinstitutions and trust and the
corrosive effects ofauthoritarianism under Trumpist
republicanism, do we rebuild amore resilient, democratic
United States?
Welcome to this final episodeof After America.
I'm your host, sean C Fettig.
Find, follow and like Deep Divewith Sean C Fettig on your
(03:53):
favorite podcast platform and onYouTube, and check back every
Sunday through September for newepisodes of After America as we
examine the precarious state ofAmerican democracy, how we got
here and where we might beheaded.
The clock is ticking.
Democracy is at a crossroadsand the time to act is now.
Dr. Faris (04:19):
You know, I have.
For many years now I have beenon the more alarmist side of of
how much danger we're in.
I think that the the eventsthat follow the 2020 election
were a very stark reminder ofhow contemporary Republicans
view our democracy, the kinds ofthings that they're willing to
do to maintain control of it.
(04:41):
To maintain control of it.
And there is a party leader wholed the insurrection, who
essentially sent a mob of hissupporters to sack Congress and
presumably murder members of theUnited States Congress, who was
engaged in conspiracy to createfake electors for the Electoral
College and was scheming tohave martial law declared so
(05:04):
that he could stay in power, andthen did not even attend the
Biden's inauguration.
That was a stress test of thesystem that we passed like
barely.
And the alarming thing, thething that makes this election
feel much more existential thaneven in 2020 to me, is that
everybody saw that right.
Everybody saw it happen.
It happened in broad daylight,like a lot of it on national
television, um, and yet thevoters of the republican party
(05:28):
have forwarded to us the sameperson who made every effort to
destroy american democracy fouryears ago.
Their position is like we'regonna give this guy another
chance.
I mean, I think this is, like,intrinsically very dangerous,
you know, and so, in that sense,the stakes of this election are
, I think, extremely, extremelyhigh, not just in terms of like
what trump and the republiccould do with their power, but
the message that it sends, Ithink, to everyone in the
(05:50):
political system Like you canliterally try to perpetrate a
coup and the voters will giveyou another chance.
It suggests a sort of awidespread lack of understanding
about the seriousness ofJanuary 6th and the seriousness
of the post-2020 election coupattempt.
It suggests to me that theseare findings in American
(06:12):
political science Memories areshort.
Presidents tend to get morepopular.
The longer they've been out ofoffice, their approval rating
will tick right back up, nomatter how bad it was when they
left.
There are some elements of thisthat are just sort of like well,
this is American politics, thisisn't anything to be alar,
sometimes using rhetoric thatmakes it seem like he has
(06:35):
authoritarian plans,authoritarian tendencies, if
nothing else, a highly, highlyauthoritarian outlook about his
position and about the kinds ofthings that you can and can't do
.
I think it's very concerningthat this man is once again on
the precipice of power, that theremaining opposition to him
within the Republican Party hasmostly been liquidated.
You know, what remains unclearis like well, what exactly would
(07:00):
be the shape of the Democraticrupture here, right?
In other words, even with themost sinister or sort of
diabolical plans like, whatcould Donald Trump and his
allies actually accomplish inpower that would make it
functionally impossible forDemocrats to ever win another
election or for any kind ofopposition party to ever get
them out of power?
Shawn (07:17):
That was Dr David Farris, political scientist and
professor at RooseveltUniversity, expert on democratic
reform and strategies tostrengthen democratic
institutions in the face ofrising authoritarianism, and
author of the book it's Time toFight Dirty how Democrats Can
Build a Lasting Majority inAmerican Politics, explaining
his concerns about a secondTrump presidency On this final
(07:41):
episode of After America.
We imagine what it might looklike in Donald Trump's America
if he, along with the assistanceof the acquiescent
authoritarian Republican Party,were to win another term to the
presidency and act on his worstimpulses and implement the
policies he supports.
We imagine what this does toAmerican democracy and, more
(08:03):
importantly, we examine how totransition back into democracy
after a collapse into some formof authoritarianism.
He says you're not going to bea dictator, are you?
I said no, no, no other thanday one, donald Trump has called
for the cancellation of theConstitution to install him as
president outside of an election.
Extra-judicial and extra-legalmass roundups and deportations
(08:27):
of immigrants, nullification ofcourt decisions with which he
disagrees, military tribunalsand death sentences for
political opponents.
Summoned a mob to the Capitolto overturn an election that he
lost in an attempt to stay inpower extra-constitutionally.
We call this a coup and, as youjust heard stated that, if
elected again, he would be adictator for at least day one.
(08:51):
If Trump gets his way, does thethings he says he'll do,
implements the policies that hesupports many outlined in
Project 2025, american historymay take a sharp and dark turn.
Imagine this date, but 20 yearsfrom now it's 2044, and this is
what American schoolchildrenare learning.
(09:13):
The 2024 election was unlike anyother in American history.
On November 6, the morningafter Election Day, the country
found itself in unchartedterritory.
The Democratic candidate,kamala Harris, had narrowly won
the popular vote and had secureda majority in the Electoral
College, but theRepublican-controlled House of
(09:35):
Representatives had other plans.
The drama began on electionnight when the results from
several key swing statesPennsylvania, georgia, arizona
and Michigan despite showingwins for Harris, were delayed
due to recounts, legalchallenges and accusations of
irregularities.
By mid-November, it becameclear that, despite Harris' edge
(10:00):
in both the popular andelectoral vote, republican
leaders were already laying thegroundwork for a political coup.
In the weeks that followed, thefocus shifted to a little-known
provision in the Constitutionthe 12th Amendment.
Under this amendment, if nocandidate receives a majority of
electoral votes, the House ofRepresentatives can decide the
(10:20):
election.
Each state delegation wouldhave just one vote, regardless
of the state's population.
The Republicans, having securedcontrol of more state
delegations during the 2022midterms and narrowly retaining
that control in the 2024election, began a coordinated
effort to challenge thelegitimacy of the electoral
(10:42):
results in Pennsylvania, georgia, arizona and Michigan.
They argued that the widespreadvoter fraud, though unproven
and repeatedly debunked in court, had tainted the results.
The Republican strategy reliedon the complex process of
certifying the election.
Electors from the contestedstates were pressured not to
(11:04):
certify their results or to sendconflicting slates of electors
to Washington.
In some cases,republican-controlled state
legislatures stepped in,overriding the popular vote in
their state to select pro-Trumpelectors.
By early December, thesituation was complete chaos.
Multiple states had sentcompeting slates of electors to
(11:26):
Congress and the ElectoralCollege vote.
Typically, a formality seemeduncertain.
The decisive moment came onJanuary 6, 2025, when Congress
met to certify the electoralvote.
As expected, disputes over thecompeting slates of electors
from key states erupted.
The country watched indisbelief as the House of
(11:48):
Representatives, with themajority of Republican state
delegations on Trump's side,refused to recognize the
Democratic electors inPennsylvania, georgia, arizona
and Michigan, forcing theelection into the House under
the 12th Amendment, with eachstate delegation casting a
single vote.
The Republicans had a slightadvantage States like Wyoming
(12:10):
and Alaska, with smallpopulations, but one vote each
held the same weight asCalifornia and New York.
As the final tally was counted,it became clear Donald Trump
had been awarded the presidency,despite losing both the popular
vote and the electoral college.
The aftermath was explosive.
(12:30):
Protests erupted in majorcities, most notably in New York
, seattle, dc, Chicago and SanFrancisco, with many Americans
believing the election had beenstolen.
Courts had ruled that theHouse's actions were technically
legal under the Constitution,but the legitimacy of the
process was widely questioned.
(12:50):
The Democratic Party refused toaccept the results and for
weeks the country teetered onthe edge of complete breakdown.
Trump, back in power, claimedhis victory as vindication.
And, emboldened by his victory,trump vowed in his inauguration
speech to overhaul electionsystems, promising new laws that
(13:11):
would secure future elections.
No longer constrained by theneed to appease voters, he moved
swiftly and with precision.
Some of his first acts were todismantle the remaining barriers
to unchecked power.
The courts were already stockedwith loyalists from his first
term, but now he had a mandateto complete his takeover, and
(13:32):
his hand-picked judges werequick to strike down challenges
to his authority, rendering themmeaningless.
The Supreme Court, once thegold standard of judicial
independence, became a puppet ofthe regime.
The rulings that followed wereswift and brutal.
Expanded executive powerslimited protest rights and
decisions that allowed for broadsurveillance of American
(13:54):
citizens.
Dissent, an essential componentof democracy, became a
dangerous game.
The Department of Justice, nownothing more than a political
weapon, began prosecutingTrump's critics Political
opponents, including KamalaHarris, joe Biden, nancy Pelosi
and even people that haddisagreed with Trump from within
(14:15):
his own party.
Liz Cheney and Mitt Romneyfound themselves facing
trumped-up charges of treason,their reputations destroyed by a
media machine that had fallenunder complete state control.
Investigative journalists werediscredited, harassed or, worse,
disappeared.
Independent media was squeezedout.
Their voices drowned in a seaof pro-regime propaganda, and
(14:39):
those who dared to speak outwere labeled as traitors.
The crackdown wasn't justconfined to political figures.
Ordinary citizens, too, becametargets.
In the early days of Trump'ssecond term, protesters across
the country were met withoverwhelming force.
Trump deployed the militaryacross the country and armored
(14:59):
vehicles rolled downonce-peaceful boulevards, and
militarized police unitsarrested thousands.
Crowded jails became holdingpens for those who dared to
oppose the new order, many ofthem never seeing a courtroom,
the new order, many of themnever seeing a courtroom
Protests were declared acts ofinsurrection and those who
participated faced longsentences or worse, indefinite
(15:20):
detention.
A new normal quickly settled in, where fear was a regular
component of daily life.
Social media, once a space forfree expression, was now a vast
network of surveillance for freeexpression was now a vast
network of surveillance.
Trump tapped Elon Musk, theowner of X, to develop and
oversee implementation ofsurveillance technology onto all
social media platforms.
(15:42):
The government's eye waseverywhere, tracking dissenters,
monitoring bank accounts,listening in on phone calls.
People grew cautious of theirneighbors, unsure of who might
report them for a simple misstep.
The rule of law had beenreplaced by the rule of power,
and the power was absolute.
Under the Trump regime,marginalized communities
(16:03):
suffered the most.
Immigrants, lgbtq plusindividuals and racial
minorities became convenientscapegoats for the regime's
failings.
New laws targeting these groupswere passed under the guise of
protecting traditional Americanvalues.
Families were torn apart asimmigration raids escalated.
Anyone even suspected of beingan immigrant, regardless of
(16:26):
legal status, were rounded up,placed in hastily built
concentration camps andextrajudicially deported, often
having been separated from theirfamilies.
Lgbtq plus rights were rolledback with alarming speed.
Transgender individuals werebanned from public spaces and
same-sex marriages weredissolved by the courts, and for
(16:48):
Black and Latino communities.
The war on civil rightsintensified, surveillance in
these neighborhoods becamesuffocating and arrests
skyrocketed.
Elections, once the cornerstoneof democracy, became mere
formalities.
Gerrymandering, voter ID lawsand outright disenfranchisement
ensured that Trump's politicalopponents never stood a chance.
(17:09):
Every election that followedhis second term was nothing more
than a coronation.
The illusion of choice wasmaintained, but the outcome was
preordained it was a systemdesigned to perpetuate itself.
As the years passed, theAmerican people adapted to their
new reality.
Some, particularly those whohad benefited from the regime's
(17:31):
policies, supported theauthoritarian order.
Others lived in quietsubmission, too fearful or
apathetic to resist.
But authoritarianism is afragile beast.
The system, built on lies andoppression, began to crumble
from within.
Corruption within Trump's innercircle grew rampant and the
(17:52):
cracks in the regime becameimpossible to ignore.
Inner circle grew rampant andthe cracks in the regime became
impossible to ignore.
Meanwhile, the American people,facing economic decline and
constant repression, began toagitate.
Protests, having been bannedyears earlier, once again
erupted, this time larger andangrier than even those protests
that occurred immediatelyfollowing the 2024 election.
(18:13):
International pressure, whichhad been mounting for years,
reached a tipping point and theregime, so seemingly unshakable,
collapsed almost overnight.
Now, as the dust settles andAmerica stands on the precipice
of rebuilding, the wounds leftby authoritarian rule are
visible.
Trust in government andinstitutions is shattered.
(18:36):
The courts, the press and civilsociety show the strain of
years of abuse.
Communities are divided, leftgrappling with resentment and
fear that was sown during thedarkest days of authoritarianism
.
So the future is uncertain, butthe opportunity to rebuild is
within reach.
In this critical phase, oneconcept becomes essential
(18:59):
Transitional justice.
Transitional justice refers tothe set of practices and
mechanisms that societies use toaddress the legacies of human
rights abuses andauthoritarianism as they
transition back to democracy,libertarianism as they
transition back to democracy.
It's a multifaceted approachthat includes holding
perpetrators accountable,acknowledging and redressing the
(19:19):
suffering of victims andreforming institutions so that
they never again serve asinstruments of oppression.
But transitional justice ismore than just a legal process.
It's about healing a societythat has been fractured and
rebuilding trust between thegovernment and its citizens.
This is Dr Monika Nalepa,political scientist and
(19:40):
professor at the University ofChicago and leading expert in
the study of transitionaljustice, authoritarian regimes
and democratization, and theauthor of the book After
Authoritarianism TransitionalJustice and Democratic Stability
, explaining the concept and theprocess.
Dr. Nalepa (19:58):
So transitional justice is the whole set of
mechanisms and institutions thatare designed to hold
accountable members andcollaborators of former
authoritarian regimes after thatauthoritarian regime has fallen
or has been displaced, and sothat's a very important
condition, that it's all kindsof ways of reckoning with people
(20:20):
who upheld or helped to upholdauthoritarian systems, but not
while that authoritarian regimeis still in place, but actually
when a democratic regime hasdisplaced it and transitional
justice mechanisms areestablished through formal
(20:42):
institutions.
So legislatures, governmentspass special procedures that
basically determine whethercriminal trials can be held
against people who committedhuman rights violations on
behalf of the regime, soarguably in accordance to the
authoritarian law at that time,but against natural law or
(21:06):
natural senses of justice thatwe might have.
So can they be now tried forthose human rights violations
under the new democracy?
And that creates all kinds ofproblems with rule of law, with
non-retractivity, so justice notapplying to cases in the past
that were legal at that time.
But it also encompasses a setof extrajudicial institutions,
(21:27):
such as bans on running foroffice by politicians who
participated in the previousauthoritarian regime or the
collaborators or secret policeinformers.
It also includes purges,whether those purges are
individual or purges of entireagencies that were tasked with
supporting or maintaining theauthoritarian regime.
(21:49):
It also includes truthcommissions, so very
extrajudicial bodies thatconduct hearings with victims,
with perpetrators Often theydon't have any policy making
authority but simply disclosethe truth about what happened.
And finally, also openinginstitutes of national
remembrance, memorialization ofthings that happened in the
(22:12):
authoritarian regime.
So transitional justice reallyencompasses a spectrum of
institutions from sort of themost harshest, the most formal
forms of accountability, such asthrough courts, all the way to
like very symbolic measures suchas museums and memorializations
.
But the thing that has to bestressed here is that there
(22:33):
needs to be, like this, momentof the authoritarian regime
actually ending, and that theseinstitutions themselves have to
be sanctioned by democraticbodies.
So what is not an example oftransitional justice?
Well, any form of victor'sjustice or any vendetta that one
might want to, you know,organize or participate in
(22:55):
towards the end of anauthoritarian regime.
So I would, for instance, say,drawing on my experience, my
expertise in Eastern Europe,that the summary trial of
Nicolae Ceausescu and his wifeElena in Romania, during that
remarkable 10-hour period whenthe dictator was deposed, and so
the summary trial thatsentenced him to death and
(23:17):
performed that death sentence onthe same day would not be an
example of transitional justice,even though one could make the
argument.
But Ceausescu got what hedeserved right.
He was one of the most fearedand ruthless dictators of the
communist period in EasternEurope.
Shawn (23:34):
At its core, transitional justice is the process of
confronting and rectifying thewrongs committed during an
authoritarian regime as asociety transitions back to
democracy democracy Involvingmore than just legal punishment
for those responsible for humanrights abuses.
It's a holistic approach thatseeks to restore justice,
uncover the truth, holdperpetrators accountable,
(23:57):
compensate victims, reforminstitutions and foster
reconciliation.
In a post-authoritarian US,these pillars would be critical
to restoring democracy.
Here's Dr Nalepa explaining theimportance of transparency in
transitional justice.
Dr. Nalepa (24:15):
I'm going to say transparency mechanism.
They can be referred todifferently, so Jan Elstra, for
instance, called themforward-looking and
backward-looking transitionaljustice mechanisms.
So backward-looking would bethe ones where you punish people
for things that everybody knowsthat they did.
They happened in the past, andthe punishment or sanction is to
(24:38):
, you know, to make things wholeby making the punishment match
the crime.
Forward looking transitionaljustice, on the other hand, is
not so much a correction to anoffense that happened, but it's
supposed to make the democraticfuture better.
So transparency mechanismsfulfill that, because they
reveal information thatpotentially could be used as
(25:00):
blackmail and so make, forinstance, for more honest
politicians.
So if all politicians that arerunning for office, if the truth
about the nature of theircollaboration with the former
regime has been disclosed, thenthere are no politicians that
can be blackmailed with thatinformation, because that
information is out in the open.
(25:20):
One could make a similarargument actually about truth
commissions, that they fulfill asimilar role, except that they
actually reach a much broaderspectrum of society, because
they don't only reveal the truthabout politicians but about
people in various walks of life.
So I would say thattransparency regimes are, you
(25:40):
know, if I were to choose, youknow, between the backward
looking and forward lookingtransitional justice mechanisms,
I would I would place my betson forward-looking transitional
justice mechanisms and, just ingeneral, transparency regimes.
Shawn (25:54):
Formalized truth-seeking is another critical step in
transitional justice.
After years of authoritarianrule where abuses were hidden or
justified by the state, it'svital to document the full
extent of those crimes.
A truth commission, similar toSouth Africa's Truth and
Reconciliation Commission afterapartheid, would be an essential
(26:15):
tool in this process.
Truth commissions provide aplatform for victims to share
their experiences and forsociety to confront its past.
In South Africa, the commissionwas instrumental in revealing
the atrocities of apartheidwhile promoting national healing
through public acknowledgementof wrongs.
In a post-authoritarian US, atruth commission could document
(26:38):
the widespread human rightsviolations, corruption and
suppression of dissent under theTrump regime.
It would provide a forum forvictims, particularly
marginalized groups such asimmigrants, lgbtq plus
individuals and racialminorities who suffered
disproportionately, to telltheir stories.
This process could help fostertransparency and understanding,
(27:01):
bringing the truth of whathappened into the light and
beginning the process of socialhealing.
Beyond uncovering the truth,there's also the question of
criminal accountability.
Should the US hold high-profiletrials for former leaders who
were responsible fororchestrating the abuses?
The answer in many ways dependson the balance between justice
(27:22):
and social stability.
In previous transitionaljustice efforts, such as the
Nuremberg trials after World WarII, criminal prosecution played
a critical role in holding Nazileaders accountable for crimes
against humanity.
Similarly, in Argentina,military leaders were tried for
the thousands of disappearancesduring the country's dirty war.
(27:42):
In a post-authoritarian US,criminal trials would likely
focus on prosecuting thoseresponsible for the gravest
offenses, whether war crimes,crimes against humanity or
widespread corruption.
These trials would serve as aclear statement that no one is
above the law and that abuses ofpower will be met with justice.
(28:02):
However, there are risks.
Overly punitive measures coulddeepen social divisions,
especially if supporters of theformer regime see these trials
as politically motivated.
As a result, balancingaccountability with
reconciliation is essential.
In addition to criminalaccountability, reparations
(28:23):
could be offered to victims ofthe regime.
Reparations can take many formsmonetary compensation, symbolic
acts or restorative measures.
In the US, marginalizedcommunities that were
specifically targeted under theauthoritarian regime, such as
immigrants, people of color andLGBTQ plus individuals, would
(28:44):
need some acknowledgement andperhaps reparations.
For transitional justice to beeffective, institutional reforms
are also critical.
The very institutions thatenabled authoritarianism courts,
law enforcement, the media mustbe reformed to prevent a return
to such abuses.
Strengthening checks andbalances, ensuring the
(29:07):
independence of the judiciaryand reforming the electoral
system to make it moretransparent and inclusive are
essential steps in rebuildingtrust In a post-authoritarian US
.
The Supreme Court and lowercourts, many of which had been
stacked with Trump loyalists,would need reform to restore
impartiality.
(29:27):
Electoral reforms might includeending gerrymandering, creating
stronger voter protections andintroducing more transparent
election monitoring.
Finally, there's the criticaltask of reconciliation.
The authoritarian period wouldlikely have left the US deeply
divided, with some citizensstaunchly supporting the regime
(29:49):
and others having resisted.
A national reconciliationprocess would aim to bridge this
divide, fostering dialogue andunderstanding between opposing
sides.
This could involve communityforums where citizens from
different political backgroundscan share their perspectives in
a constructive manner, ornational initiatives that focus
(30:10):
on rebuilding social cohesion.
Reconciliation doesn't meanerasing accountability, but it
does mean finding ways tocoexist peacefully in a
pluralistic democracy.
Ultimately, transitional justiceis about more than punishment.
It's about rebuilding a societyon principles of fairness,
(30:36):
transparency and human rights.
It's important to note thattransitional justice, when
misapplied or applied withouttrue commitment, can also fail.
A clear failure of transitionaljustice can be found right here
in the United States in theaftermath of the Civil War.
Rather than pursuing acomprehensive justice process,
the Reconstruction period wasmarked by incomplete reforms,
missed opportunities for racialreconciliation and, ultimately,
(30:59):
a retreat from accountability.
Former Confederate leaders werenot held to account in any
meaningful way, and the Southwas allowed to implement laws
and policies that reinforcedwhite supremacy and oppression,
including Jim Crow laws.
The failure to punishConfederate leaders and the
quick reintegration of Southernstates without significant
(31:20):
institutional reform left thelegacy of slavery and racism
largely unaddressed.
This is Dr Nalepa againexplaining this failure.
Dr. Nalepa (31:31):
I like the example of the United States, because
for many years it's been veryhard for me to convince American
political scientists thattransitional justice is a
legitimate subfield and that weshould be talking about dealing
with regimes.
And this is an importantquestion, not just for NASA and
new democracies, such as theones that emerged in the third
wave, but also ones like yousaid yourself, the very sort of
(31:55):
like gradual transitions.
But the lack of this cleardemarcation point, right, that
makes it hard to figure out.
Okay, so when?
When is the right moment fortransitioning justice?
And so, yeah, so clearly, atsome point between the late 18th
century and now the UnitedStates democratized, we
basically have universal votingrights and universal right to
(32:16):
contest the elections.
Anybody can run for office, ofcourse, having secured enough
funding for campaigns.
But you know, when you includelocal office, it's actually, I
wouldn't say fairly easy, butit's fairly possible to run for
elections.
But because of it seems that,because of the most atrocious
(32:36):
undermining of rights happenedso far in the past, the
opportunities for transitionaljustice are now very limited,
right?
So you very correctlyidentified you know the end of
the Civil War as the rightmoment.
Very correctly identified, youknow the end of the Civil War as
the right moment.
But I think what the UnitedStates went through, you know,
in the period of Reconstructionand then Jim Crow, was something
(32:56):
that's actually very familiarto a lot of new democracies,
right Like there's this tensionbetween accountability for what
happened in the past and thissort of like orientation to the
future, so that we don't missthis moment when, you know,
we're building new institutionsand the most important thing is
to organize our democraticprocedures in a way that you
know that will set us up forsuccess.
(33:19):
So this is a very, very familiartension and you know we saw it
in various third wavetransitions to democracy.
You know, from Spain In Spain,actually, there was a formal
institution, the Pact ofForgetting, where elites made
these mutual promises that youknow we won't investigate what
happened during the Civil War,you won't investigate what
(33:41):
happened under Franco, and we'llall just focus on, you know,
building a new Spain and itlasted until it didn't.
You know Poland, hungary wentthrough similar, similar
dilemmas and I have a sense thatthis must have been also
something that happened in theUnited States, right, where,
well, you know we can, we canspend a lot of time like fixing
(34:01):
and, you know holdingaccountable, you know the
members of the Confederacy andtheir collaborators for all
kinds of things that happened inthe past, or we can actually
start working towards a newunion.
Shawn (34:16):
This failure of transitional justice allowed for
the reestablishment of whitedominance in the South, the
disenfranchisement of AfricanAmericans and the perpetuation
of racial violence, includinglynching and segregation.
The country failed to reconcilethe deep divisions between
North and South, and theconsequences of this are still
felt today in the form ofsystemic racism and political
(34:39):
polarization.
This failure can havedisastrous consequences.
Dr Nalepa explains why.
Dr. Nalepa (34:47):
But clearly there are lots of grievances that were
not dealt with and now, well,those who are directly
responsible for those grievanceshave died, those who are
victims of those grievances havealso died, and it seems that
all that is left is basicallycompensating victims, their
descendants, and telling thetruth right?
(35:08):
So so it's not that you knowthat transitional justice
options, such a long time afterthe transition actually happened
, are impossible.
There are just fewer of them,and you know, and they might not
be fully satisfactory, and youknow, and even in those cases,
what we see right now, thebacklash against, you know,
teaching, critical race theory,you know the whole banned books
(35:31):
movement.
It just shows how, even inthose I want to say those who
inherited wealth because ofunjust institutions and giving
them to victims, but there'sstill a lot of backlash.
(35:53):
So just the fact thattransitional justice
institutions were notimplemented and that
transitional justice did nottake place doesn't mean it
doesn't come to haunt us laterin the future, because in this
country there clearly is ademand for transitional justice.
Often it's called, you know,demands for racial justice, but
(36:13):
I see this, as you know, partand parcel of the same set of
institutions.
Shawn (36:19):
The successes of transitional justice show that
accountability, truth andreconciliation can help rebuild
societies and prevent futureauthoritarianism or conflict.
However, failures like thoseafter the American Civil War
highlight the dangers ofprioritizing unity over justice,
allowing deep societal woundsto fester.
(36:41):
A thorough, honest reckoningwith the past is crucial to
creating a just and lastingpeace.
Should the United Statesexperience a slide into
authoritarianism under DonaldTrump and the Republican Party,
it's clear that transitionaljustice holds the key to
eventually rebuilding a nationthat will have been scarred by
repression, division and fear.
(37:03):
Years of unchecked power, thesilencing of dissent and the
erosion of civil liberties willhave culminated in a fractured
society, with trust indemocratic institutions at an
all-time low.
But transitional justice offersa roadmap for healing.
Truth-seeking, criminalaccountability, reparations,
(37:23):
institutional reform andreconciliation are the pillars
that will allow the UnitedStates to confront its past and
build a stronger future.
There are also some concretemechanisms that future builders
of a newer, better Americandemocracy will have to consider
in crafting a new politicalsystem, a new constitution, and
(37:44):
in doing so, they can certainlylearn from some of the
weaknesses and thevulnerabilities that have
contributed, even been exploited, to dismantling democracy in
the United States.
Dr Alistair Smith, politicalscientist and professor at New
York University, expert onpolitical leadership,
authoritarian regimes and theintersection of politics and
(38:05):
economics, and co-author of theDictator's Handbook, describes
some of these vulnerabilities.
Dr. Smith (38:12):
I find the concerns we should have in the United
States at the moment are a lotmore about packing judiciary and
allowing votes to be countedand discounted the need for ID
that is designed purely to keeppeople who have a legitimate
right from voting.
I think those are much moreserious concerns than some of
(38:37):
these sort of global issues andwe should be very attentive to
those, but I think that very fewpeople want to go along with
eroding political rights.
There's, of course, very simpleways to increase the
accountability of the USgovernment.
Getting rid of the ElectoralCollege would massively improve
the incentive of the presidentto work for the United States
(39:01):
people instead of appealing tothe middle of the road voters in
a handful of states, which isthe current situation we have.
But getting such rules to passis extremely difficult given the
constitutional rules.
There's a lot of pushback atthe moment against party
gerrymandering and I thinkthat's a phenomenal way to
(39:21):
improve accountability.
We could change primary rules.
That would actually greatlyimprove the ability of voters to
speak their mind and makepolitical leaders much more
accountable to the voters.
I'm not going to say it can'tbe improved and it could be.
It's been a phenomenalpolitical system.
(39:42):
We just have to look at thelevel of economic growth and
enfranchisement improvementsover the years.
But there are easy fixes, ofcourse.
Always with these things, it'snot that we don't know a better
solution, it's how do we getbetter solutions in place?
(40:02):
I think a lot of these thingsis we should in some sense
grandfather in rules.
You know we want to get rid ofthe Electoral College, but let's
have a constitutional rule toget rid of it in 30 years,
because states don't know ifthey're going to be the marginal
ones that the president's goingto want to kiss up to in 30
years' time.
(40:22):
So getting rid of a rule thatprivileges a few states is not
something those few states willwant to veto now, but the
current politicians have muchless interest in vetoing that in
the future.
So we can improve the US systemof government.
The question is finding ways toget it done that is in the
(40:45):
interest of the currentpoliticians through whom the
system needs to be charged.
Shawn (40:51):
Democracy is fragile and this authoritarian period in
America reminds us how quicklyfreedoms can be stripped away.
This is Stephen Marche,novelist, essayist and cultural
commentator known for his workson politics and culture,
including the Future ofDemocracy and the decline of
American political stability,and author of the book the Next
(41:11):
Civil War, discussing how ourfirst American president feared
this current politicalenvironment.
Stephen Marche (41:19):
Well, the most extraordinary document that I
read during the entire processof writing the Next Civil War
was George Washington's farewellletter, which used to be read
out loud in school.
Children memorized it like theymemorized the Bill of Rights
and the Declaration ofIndependence and so on.
It's a truly extraordinarydocument because Washington
predicted exactly what justhappened.
(41:40):
I mean like he spelled it outso clearly what the danger was.
That it's almost like, well,you should have taken, like you
knew there was a flaw in yoursystem right, like you should
have.
You should have worked out someway out of this.
But I mean the.
It's an extraordinary work ofprediction to get to get the
(42:02):
fall of your own country right240 years after you wrote it.
It's regional disputes, it'spartisanship over country.
I mean, the truth is there aremany, many american politicians
who believe that their party is,is the country right and and
(42:23):
therefore the only country, theonly america that matters is the
america of their pardon.
This is the, this is kind.
Matters is the America of theirpardon.
This is kind of the core thingof American politics and the
core disaster.
Shawn (42:36):
Protecting democracy requires constant effort, not
just from leaders, but from us,the citizens.
It means staying informed,speaking out against injustice
and holding power to account andvoting for democracy.
Every time, including thisNovember.
As we conclude this AfterAmerica series, it's clear that
(42:58):
the story of Democraticbacksliding, even a rise of
authoritarianism in the UnitedStates is not just a distant
possibility.
It's a very real threat thatwe've explored from multiple
angles From the language ofothering and demonization under
Republican Party leadership toright-wing media, echo chambers
that encourage and promotepolarization, to the erosion of
(43:20):
democratic norms, to theweaponization of misinformation,
to how evangelicals haveabandoned Christian values to
become soldiers for Trump, tothe ways in which Republicans
have stacked the courts withright-wing ideologues, to the
empowerment of far-right militiagroups and the rise of
political violence in Americanpolitics, to Donald Trump's coup
(43:41):
attempt in January of 2021.
This series has painted apicture of a country on the
brink, but, more importantly, ithas shown us how a nation might
fall warning signs to look forand, in today's episode, how it
could rise again.
We've looked into the historyof authoritarian regimes across
the globe, using the lens ofcountries like Hungary, russia,
(44:05):
germany and the Roman Empire, tounderstand the patterns that
lead to democratic collapse and,more critically, the efforts
required to rebuild.
We've explored how institutions, once the protectors of freedom
, can be hollowed out andtransformed into tools of
repression.
But we've also seen thatauthoritarianism, while deeply
destructive, is not invincible.
Power struggles, corruption andpopular unrest can topple even
(44:29):
the strongest regimes, and todaywe've examined the concept of
transitional justice that iscentral to understanding how a
post-authoritarian America couldbegin to heal.
Truth-seeking, accountabilityand institutional reform are not
just buzzwords.
They're essential pillars for anation that has endured
authoritarian rule and seeks torestore democracy.
(44:52):
The future of America willdepend on its ability to learn
from its past, and while thisseries has imagined the collapse
of democracy, it is a reminderof the resilience of democratic
ideals.
The road to recovery, whetherthat begins now or out of the
ashes of a burned-out democracysometime in the future, will be
long and it will be difficult,but with dedication to justice
(45:15):
and transparency and unity,america can emerge stronger than
before.
It is our shared responsibilityto ensure that the next chapter
in this story is one of renewaland hope.
So vote to save democracy inthe United States this November
5th and join us next week as ourflagship series Deep Dive
(45:36):
returns with a special episode,with all of the contributors to
After America over these past 12weeks discussing how much hope,
if any, they have in theresilience, in fact the
continued existence of Americandemocracy.
And as a final scrap of foodfor thought, a final warning
really I'm going to leave youwith Dr Faris' thoughts on the
(45:58):
American capacity to sleepwalkinto authoritarianism.
Dr. Faris (46:11):
I think that there would be multiple inflection
points where Trump and theRepublicans will do things to
consolidate their power, toexpand their power, to weaken
the architecture of democracy,but the effects of those acts
might not be felt right away.
I'm thinking of the Project2025 that Trump's right-wing
allies have put together.
It's available on the internetif you want to read it.
(46:32):
Part of that plan is to havelike tens of thousands of
positions inside the federalbureaucracy stripped of their
protection.
In other words, these would bemade like 50,000 new political
appointees where Trump can go in, clear out lifelong civil
servants and then replace themwith Heritage Foundation
ideologues or wherever he'sgoing to pull from.
(46:54):
That's really dangerous, right,but it's also.
You're going to wake up thenext morning and the world will
keep turning, and I think somepeople will conclude like, well,
50,000 out of 2 million, what'sthe big deal?
Like?
Ultimately, we survive.
You can see like a series ofthose things happening where
(47:16):
Trump and the Republicans puttheir plans in motion, like they
passed this law that's beenintroduced in the house you know
what they call like theelection integrity act, but that
would have the effect of makingvoting a lot harder for a lot
of different people, among manyother things it's like again,
you have to think of it as likeone piece of a puzzle designed
(47:36):
to make it all but impossible toget Republicans out of power at
the federal level and, to theextent that they still leave
enough openings where you know,opposition can claim victories
here and there.
My fear is that people will notrecognize what has happened
until it is too late, in otherwords, until enough of these
little inflection points havebeen manipulated by Republicans
(48:01):
and you lose rights and you loseprocedures and you lose
pathways to change and reform.
My fear is that those thingswill unfold over a series of
years and that we're going towake up in like 2027 or 2029 and
realize, like the way that weused to defeat a political party
(48:22):
, the way that we used to defeatpresidents, is no longer
available to us in likeprecisely the same way that it
used to be, because theseefforts to undermine the basic
guardrails and the basicunderpinnings of American
democracy have actually beenquite successful and we just
won't notice until it's too latewhen you clear out civil
(48:42):
servants and then you can justsort of use the federal
government as a campaign arm.
That's not a tanks-in tanks inthe street moment, but it is
something that makes thepolitical system much, much less
fair to people who are out ofpower.
Hey folks, welcome to a special episode of Deep Dive.
So here we are.
The moment has arrived.
It is Monday, january 20th 2025.
Trump is sworn into officetoday and he has promised shock
and awe.
His words in his first weekMass deportations, trade wars,
pardons of traitors and more.
So we can expect that life willget incredibly hard for a lot
(00:23):
of people pretty quickly, andthat'll just be the start.
As we know, trump is animated byauthoritarianism, fear,
violence, humiliation, chaos.
It's almost surreal,unbelievable, to consider the
President of the United Stateswith this objective.
None of this bodes well for theAmerican Democratic experiment.
So today I'm revisiting thefinal episode of my limited
(00:47):
series After America that ranlast year and imagined how
democracy could fail in theUnited States.
In this final episode, Ioutlined how authoritarianism
could take hold under a secondTrump presidency in very vivid
detail.
The introduction to the episodelays out how it could happen.
The remainder of the episode,though.
How it could happen.
The remainder of the episode,though, imagines the world after
(01:08):
Trumpism fails and how werebuild a stronger, more
resilient American democracy.
And this is my message of hopeto you on this admittedly very
scary, very dark day Take careof each other, folks day.
(01:30):
Take care of each other.
Folks.
Imagine this America.
The streets are quiet, with theeerie stillness of a country
that has just emerged from yearsof authoritarian rule.
It's a country exhausted byrepression, where neighbors eye
each other with suspicion,unsure who had supported the
regime and who had resisted.
Trump's second presidential termmarked the beginning of
America's descent intoauthoritarianism.
(01:52):
The regime, propped up byloyalists, rigged elections and
relentless propaganda,maintained control by sabotaging
democratic institutions,instilling fear and crushing
dissent.
Under this regime, entirecommunities were torn apart.
Immigrants, racial minoritiesand LGBTQ plus citizens were
(02:15):
scapegoated and subjected todiscriminatory laws and policies
.
People lived under constantsurveillance, with militarized
police patrolling the streets,arresting anyone who dared
challenge the state.
Neighbors were encouraged toreport on each other.
Civil liberties wereeviscerated.
But now the authoritarianregime has fallen, the dictator
(02:38):
is gone and the scars of thoseyears are not just emotional but
institutional.
Years are not just emotionalbut institutional.
Democratic structures werehollowed out, courts packed with
loyalists and laws rewritten tobenefit the few at the expense
of the many.
But now, after years ofhopelessness, this moment
presents an opportunity, anopening to rebuild democracy
(03:06):
stronger and more resilient thanbefore, to remake and
reconstruct the institutionsthat were dismantled, to restore
the rule of law and to createsystems that protect against
future authoritarianism.
The country must also grapplewith the need for accountability
how to confront those whoperpetuated the regime's abuses
while fostering reconciliation.
The challenge is monumental.
What does this even look likeand how, after years of
(03:30):
democratic dismantling ofinstitutions and trust and the
corrosive effects ofauthoritarianism under Trumpist
republicanism, do we rebuild amore resilient, democratic
United States?
Welcome to this final episodeof After America.
I'm your host, sean C Fettig.
Find, follow and like Deep Divewith Sean C Fettig on your
(03:53):
favorite podcast platform and onYouTube, and check back every
Sunday through September for newepisodes of After America as we
examine the precarious state ofAmerican democracy, how we got
here and where we might beheaded.
The clock is ticking.
Democracy is at a crossroadsand the time to act is now.
Dr. Faris (04:19):
You know, I have.
For many years now I have beenon the more alarmist side of of
how much danger we're in.
I think that the the eventsthat follow the 2020 election
were a very stark reminder ofhow contemporary Republicans
view our democracy, the kinds ofthings that they're willing to
do to maintain control of it.
(04:41):
To maintain control of it.
And there is a party leader wholed the insurrection, who
essentially sent a mob of hissupporters to sack Congress and
presumably murder members of theUnited States Congress, who was
engaged in conspiracy to createfake electors for the Electoral
College and was scheming tohave martial law declared so
(05:04):
that he could stay in power, andthen did not even attend the
Biden's inauguration.
That was a stress test of thesystem that we passed like
barely.
And the alarming thing, thething that makes this election
feel much more existential thaneven in 2020 to me, is that
everybody saw that right.
Everybody saw it happen.
It happened in broad daylight,like a lot of it on national
television, um, and yet thevoters of the republican party
(05:28):
have forwarded to us the sameperson who made every effort to
destroy american democracy fouryears ago.
Their position is like we'regonna give this guy another
chance.
I mean, I think this is, like,intrinsically very dangerous,
you know, and so, in that sense,the stakes of this election are
, I think, extremely, extremelyhigh, not just in terms of like
what trump and the republiccould do with their power, but
the message that it sends, Ithink, to everyone in the
(05:50):
political system Like you canliterally try to perpetrate a
coup and the voters will giveyou another chance.
It suggests a sort of awidespread lack of understanding
about the seriousness ofJanuary 6th and the seriousness
of the post-2020 election coupattempt.
It suggests to me that theseare findings in American
(06:12):
political science Memories areshort.
Presidents tend to get morepopular.
The longer they've been out ofoffice, their approval rating
will tick right back up, nomatter how bad it was when they
left.
There are some elements of thisthat are just sort of like well,
this is American politics, thisisn't anything to be alar,
sometimes using rhetoric thatmakes it seem like he has
(06:35):
authoritarian plans,authoritarian tendencies, if
nothing else, a highly, highlyauthoritarian outlook about his
position and about the kinds ofthings that you can and can't do
.
I think it's very concerningthat this man is once again on
the precipice of power, that theremaining opposition to him
within the Republican Party hasmostly been liquidated.
You know, what remains unclearis like well, what exactly would
(07:00):
be the shape of the Democraticrupture here, right?
In other words, even with themost sinister or sort of
diabolical plans like, whatcould Donald Trump and his
allies actually accomplish inpower that would make it
functionally impossible forDemocrats to ever win another
election or for any kind ofopposition party to ever get
them out of power?
Shawn (07:17):
That was Dr David Farris, political scientist and
professor at RooseveltUniversity, expert on democratic
reform and strategies tostrengthen democratic
institutions in the face ofrising authoritarianism, and
author of the book it's Time toFight Dirty how Democrats Can
Build a Lasting Majority inAmerican Politics, explaining
his concerns about a secondTrump presidency On this final
(07:41):
episode of After America.
We imagine what it might looklike in Donald Trump's America
if he, along with the assistanceof the acquiescent
authoritarian Republican Party,were to win another term to the
presidency and act on his worstimpulses and implement the
policies he supports.
We imagine what this does toAmerican democracy and, more
(08:03):
importantly, we examine how totransition back into democracy
after a collapse into some formof authoritarianism.
He says you're not going to bea dictator, are you?
I said no, no, no other thanday one, donald Trump has called
for the cancellation of theConstitution to install him as
president outside of an election.
Extra-judicial and extra-legalmass roundups and deportations
(08:27):
of immigrants, nullification ofcourt decisions with which he
disagrees, military tribunalsand death sentences for
political opponents.
Summoned a mob to the Capitolto overturn an election that he
lost in an attempt to stay inpower extra-constitutionally.
We call this a coup and, as youjust heard stated that, if
elected again, he would be adictator for at least day one.
(08:51):
If Trump gets his way, does thethings he says he'll do,
implements the policies that hesupports many outlined in
Project 2025, american historymay take a sharp and dark turn.
Imagine this date, but 20 yearsfrom now it's 2044, and this is
what American schoolchildrenare learning.
(09:13):
The 2024 election was unlike anyother in American history.
On November 6, the morningafter Election Day, the country
found itself in unchartedterritory.
The Democratic candidate,kamala Harris, had narrowly won
the popular vote and had secureda majority in the Electoral
College, but theRepublican-controlled House of
(09:35):
Representatives had other plans.
The drama began on electionnight when the results from
several key swing statesPennsylvania, georgia, arizona
and Michigan despite showingwins for Harris, were delayed
due to recounts, legalchallenges and accusations of
irregularities.
By mid-November, it becameclear that, despite Harris' edge
(10:00):
in both the popular andelectoral vote, republican
leaders were already laying thegroundwork for a political coup.
In the weeks that followed, thefocus shifted to a little-known
provision in the Constitutionthe 12th Amendment.
Under this amendment, if nocandidate receives a majority of
electoral votes, the House ofRepresentatives can decide the
(10:20):
election.
Each state delegation wouldhave just one vote, regardless
of the state's population.
The Republicans, having securedcontrol of more state
delegations during the 2022midterms and narrowly retaining
that control in the 2024election, began a coordinated
effort to challenge thelegitimacy of the electoral
(10:42):
results in Pennsylvania, georgia, arizona and Michigan.
They argued that the widespreadvoter fraud, though unproven
and repeatedly debunked in court, had tainted the results.
The Republican strategy reliedon the complex process of
certifying the election.
Electors from the contestedstates were pressured not to
(11:04):
certify their results or to sendconflicting slates of electors
to Washington.
In some cases,republican-controlled state
legislatures stepped in,overriding the popular vote in
their state to select pro-Trumpelectors.
By early December, thesituation was complete chaos.
Multiple states had sentcompeting slates of electors to
(11:26):
Congress and the ElectoralCollege vote.
Typically, a formality seemeduncertain.
The decisive moment came onJanuary 6, 2025, when Congress
met to certify the electoralvote.
As expected, disputes over thecompeting slates of electors
from key states erupted.
The country watched indisbelief as the House of
(11:48):
Representatives, with themajority of Republican state
delegations on Trump's side,refused to recognize the
Democratic electors inPennsylvania, georgia, arizona
and Michigan, forcing theelection into the House under
the 12th Amendment, with eachstate delegation casting a
single vote.
The Republicans had a slightadvantage States like Wyoming
(12:10):
and Alaska, with smallpopulations, but one vote each
held the same weight asCalifornia and New York.
As the final tally was counted,it became clear Donald Trump
had been awarded the presidency,despite losing both the popular
vote and the electoral college.
The aftermath was explosive.
(12:30):
Protests erupted in majorcities, most notably in New York
, seattle, dc, Chicago and SanFrancisco, with many Americans
believing the election had beenstolen.
Courts had ruled that theHouse's actions were technically
legal under the Constitution,but the legitimacy of the
process was widely questioned.
(12:50):
The Democratic Party refused toaccept the results and for
weeks the country teetered onthe edge of complete breakdown.
Trump, back in power, claimedhis victory as vindication.
And, emboldened by his victory,trump vowed in his inauguration
speech to overhaul electionsystems, promising new laws that
(13:11):
would secure future elections.
No longer constrained by theneed to appease voters, he moved
swiftly and with precision.
Some of his first acts were todismantle the remaining barriers
to unchecked power.
The courts were already stockedwith loyalists from his first
term, but now he had a mandateto complete his takeover, and
(13:32):
his hand-picked judges werequick to strike down challenges
to his authority, rendering themmeaningless.
The Supreme Court, once thegold standard of judicial
independence, became a puppet ofthe regime.
The rulings that followed wereswift and brutal.
Expanded executive powerslimited protest rights and
decisions that allowed for broadsurveillance of American
(13:54):
citizens.
Dissent, an essential componentof democracy, became a
dangerous game.
The Department of Justice, nownothing more than a political
weapon, began prosecutingTrump's critics Political
opponents, including KamalaHarris, joe Biden, nancy Pelosi
and even people that haddisagreed with Trump from within
(14:15):
his own party.
Liz Cheney and Mitt Romneyfound themselves facing
trumped-up charges of treason,their reputations destroyed by a
media machine that had fallenunder complete state control.
Investigative journalists werediscredited, harassed or, worse,
disappeared.
Independent media was squeezedout.
Their voices drowned in a seaof pro-regime propaganda, and
(14:39):
those who dared to speak outwere labeled as traitors.
The crackdown wasn't justconfined to political figures.
Ordinary citizens, too, becametargets.
In the early days of Trump'ssecond term, protesters across
the country were met withoverwhelming force.
Trump deployed the militaryacross the country and armored
(14:59):
vehicles rolled downonce-peaceful boulevards, and
militarized police unitsarrested thousands.
Crowded jails became holdingpens for those who dared to
oppose the new order, many ofthem never seeing a courtroom,
the new order, many of themnever seeing a courtroom
Protests were declared acts ofinsurrection and those who
participated faced longsentences or worse, indefinite
(15:20):
detention.
A new normal quickly settled in, where fear was a regular
component of daily life.
Social media, once a space forfree expression, was now a vast
network of surveillance for freeexpression was now a vast
network of surveillance.
Trump tapped Elon Musk, theowner of X, to develop and
oversee implementation ofsurveillance technology onto all
social media platforms.
(15:42):
The government's eye waseverywhere, tracking dissenters,
monitoring bank accounts,listening in on phone calls.
People grew cautious of theirneighbors, unsure of who might
report them for a simple misstep.
The rule of law had beenreplaced by the rule of power,
and the power was absolute.
Under the Trump regime,marginalized communities
(16:03):
suffered the most.
Immigrants, lgbtq plusindividuals and racial
minorities became convenientscapegoats for the regime's
failings.
New laws targeting these groupswere passed under the guise of
protecting traditional Americanvalues.
Families were torn apart asimmigration raids escalated.
Anyone even suspected of beingan immigrant, regardless of
(16:26):
legal status, were rounded up,placed in hastily built
concentration camps andextrajudicially deported, often
having been separated from theirfamilies.
Lgbtq plus rights were rolledback with alarming speed.
Transgender individuals werebanned from public spaces and
same-sex marriages weredissolved by the courts, and for
(16:48):
Black and Latino communities.
The war on civil rightsintensified, surveillance in
these neighborhoods becamesuffocating and arrests
skyrocketed.
Elections, once the cornerstoneof democracy, became mere
formalities.
Gerrymandering, voter ID lawsand outright disenfranchisement
ensured that Trump's politicalopponents never stood a chance.
(17:09):
Every election that followedhis second term was nothing more
than a coronation.
The illusion of choice wasmaintained, but the outcome was
preordained it was a systemdesigned to perpetuate itself.
As the years passed, theAmerican people adapted to their
new reality.
Some, particularly those whohad benefited from the regime's
(17:31):
policies, supported theauthoritarian order.
Others lived in quietsubmission, too fearful or
apathetic to resist.
But authoritarianism is afragile beast.
The system, built on lies andoppression, began to crumble
from within.
Corruption within Trump's innercircle grew rampant and the
(17:52):
cracks in the regime becameimpossible to ignore.
Inner circle grew rampant andthe cracks in the regime became
impossible to ignore.
Meanwhile, the American people,facing economic decline and
constant repression, began toagitate.
Protests, having been bannedyears earlier, once again
erupted, this time larger andangrier than even those protests
that occurred immediatelyfollowing the 2024 election.
(18:13):
International pressure, whichhad been mounting for years,
reached a tipping point and theregime, so seemingly unshakable,
collapsed almost overnight.
Now, as the dust settles andAmerica stands on the precipice
of rebuilding, the wounds leftby authoritarian rule are
visible.
Trust in government andinstitutions is shattered.
(18:36):
The courts, the press and civilsociety show the strain of
years of abuse.
Communities are divided, leftgrappling with resentment and
fear that was sown during thedarkest days of authoritarianism
.
So the future is uncertain, butthe opportunity to rebuild is
within reach.
In this critical phase, oneconcept becomes essential
(18:59):
Transitional justice.
Transitional justice refers tothe set of practices and
mechanisms that societies use toaddress the legacies of human
rights abuses andauthoritarianism as they
transition back to democracy,libertarianism as they
transition back to democracy.
It's a multifaceted approachthat includes holding
perpetrators accountable,acknowledging and redressing the
(19:19):
suffering of victims andreforming institutions so that
they never again serve asinstruments of oppression.
But transitional justice ismore than just a legal process.
It's about healing a societythat has been fractured and
rebuilding trust between thegovernment and its citizens.
This is Dr Monika Nalepa,political scientist and
(19:40):
professor at the University ofChicago and leading expert in
the study of transitionaljustice, authoritarian regimes
and democratization, and theauthor of the book After
Authoritarianism TransitionalJustice and Democratic Stability
, explaining the concept and theprocess.
Dr. Nalepa (19:58):
So transitional justice is the whole set of
mechanisms and institutions thatare designed to hold
accountable members andcollaborators of former
authoritarian regimes after thatauthoritarian regime has fallen
or has been displaced, and sothat's a very important
condition, that it's all kindsof ways of reckoning with people
(20:20):
who upheld or helped to upholdauthoritarian systems, but not
while that authoritarian regimeis still in place, but actually
when a democratic regime hasdisplaced it and transitional
justice mechanisms areestablished through formal
(20:42):
institutions.
So legislatures, governmentspass special procedures that
basically determine whethercriminal trials can be held
against people who committedhuman rights violations on
behalf of the regime, soarguably in accordance to the
authoritarian law at that time,but against natural law or
(21:06):
natural senses of justice thatwe might have.
So can they be now tried forthose human rights violations
under the new democracy?
And that creates all kinds ofproblems with rule of law, with
non-retractivity, so justice notapplying to cases in the past
that were legal at that time.
But it also encompasses a setof extrajudicial institutions,
(21:27):
such as bans on running foroffice by politicians who
participated in the previousauthoritarian regime or the
collaborators or secret policeinformers.
It also includes purges,whether those purges are
individual or purges of entireagencies that were tasked with
supporting or maintaining theauthoritarian regime.
(21:49):
It also includes truthcommissions, so very
extrajudicial bodies thatconduct hearings with victims,
with perpetrators Often theydon't have any policy making
authority but simply disclosethe truth about what happened.
And finally, also openinginstitutes of national
remembrance, memorialization ofthings that happened in the
(22:12):
authoritarian regime.
So transitional justice reallyencompasses a spectrum of
institutions from sort of themost harshest, the most formal
forms of accountability, such asthrough courts, all the way to
like very symbolic measures suchas museums and memorializations
.
But the thing that has to bestressed here is that there
(22:33):
needs to be, like this, momentof the authoritarian regime
actually ending, and that theseinstitutions themselves have to
be sanctioned by democraticbodies.
So what is not an example oftransitional justice?
Well, any form of victor'sjustice or any vendetta that one
might want to, you know,organize or participate in
(22:55):
towards the end of anauthoritarian regime.
So I would, for instance, say,drawing on my experience, my
expertise in Eastern Europe,that the summary trial of
Nicolae Ceausescu and his wifeElena in Romania, during that
remarkable 10-hour period whenthe dictator was deposed, and so
the summary trial thatsentenced him to death and
(23:17):
performed that death sentence onthe same day would not be an
example of transitional justice,even though one could make the
argument.
But Ceausescu got what hedeserved right.
He was one of the most fearedand ruthless dictators of the
communist period in EasternEurope.
Shawn (23:34):
At its core, transitional justice is the process of
confronting and rectifying thewrongs committed during an
authoritarian regime as asociety transitions back to
democracy democracy Involvingmore than just legal punishment
for those responsible for humanrights abuses.
It's a holistic approach thatseeks to restore justice,
uncover the truth, holdperpetrators accountable,
(23:57):
compensate victims, reforminstitutions and foster
reconciliation.
In a post-authoritarian US,these pillars would be critical
to restoring democracy.
Here's Dr Nalepa explaining theimportance of transparency in
transitional justice.
Dr. Nalepa (24:15):
I'm going to say transparency mechanism.
They can be referred todifferently, so Jan Elstra, for
instance, called themforward-looking and
backward-looking transitionaljustice mechanisms.
So backward-looking would bethe ones where you punish people
for things that everybody knowsthat they did.
They happened in the past, andthe punishment or sanction is to
(24:38):
, you know, to make things wholeby making the punishment match
the crime.
Forward looking transitionaljustice, on the other hand, is
not so much a correction to anoffense that happened, but it's
supposed to make the democraticfuture better.
So transparency mechanismsfulfill that, because they
reveal information thatpotentially could be used as
(25:00):
blackmail and so make, forinstance, for more honest
politicians.
So if all politicians that arerunning for office, if the truth
about the nature of theircollaboration with the former
regime has been disclosed, thenthere are no politicians that
can be blackmailed with thatinformation, because that
information is out in the open.
(25:20):
One could make a similarargument actually about truth
commissions, that they fulfill asimilar role, except that they
actually reach a much broaderspectrum of society, because
they don't only reveal the truthabout politicians but about
people in various walks of life.
So I would say thattransparency regimes are, you
(25:40):
know, if I were to choose, youknow, between the backward
looking and forward lookingtransitional justice mechanisms,
I would I would place my betson forward-looking transitional
justice mechanisms and, just ingeneral, transparency regimes.
Shawn (25:54):
Formalized truth-seeking is another critical step in
transitional justice.
After years of authoritarianrule where abuses were hidden or
justified by the state, it'svital to document the full
extent of those crimes.
A truth commission, similar toSouth Africa's Truth and
Reconciliation Commission afterapartheid, would be an essential
(26:15):
tool in this process.
Truth commissions provide aplatform for victims to share
their experiences and forsociety to confront its past.
In South Africa, the commissionwas instrumental in revealing
the atrocities of apartheidwhile promoting national healing
through public acknowledgementof wrongs.
In a post-authoritarian US, atruth commission could document
(26:38):
the widespread human rightsviolations, corruption and
suppression of dissent under theTrump regime.
It would provide a forum forvictims, particularly
marginalized groups such asimmigrants, lgbtq plus
individuals and racialminorities who suffered
disproportionately, to telltheir stories.
This process could help fostertransparency and understanding,
(27:01):
bringing the truth of whathappened into the light and
beginning the process of socialhealing.
Beyond uncovering the truth,there's also the question of
criminal accountability.
Should the US hold high-profiletrials for former leaders who
were responsible fororchestrating the abuses?
The answer in many ways dependson the balance between justice
(27:22):
and social stability.
In previous transitionaljustice efforts, such as the
Nuremberg trials after World WarII, criminal prosecution played
a critical role in holding Nazileaders accountable for crimes
against humanity.
Similarly, in Argentina,military leaders were tried for
the thousands of disappearancesduring the country's dirty war.
(27:42):
In a post-authoritarian US,criminal trials would likely
focus on prosecuting thoseresponsible for the gravest
offenses, whether war crimes,crimes against humanity or
widespread corruption.
These trials would serve as aclear statement that no one is
above the law and that abuses ofpower will be met with justice.
(28:02):
However, there are risks.
Overly punitive measures coulddeepen social divisions,
especially if supporters of theformer regime see these trials
as politically motivated.
As a result, balancingaccountability with
reconciliation is essential.
In addition to criminalaccountability, reparations
(28:23):
could be offered to victims ofthe regime.
Reparations can take many formsmonetary compensation, symbolic
acts or restorative measures.
In the US, marginalizedcommunities that were
specifically targeted under theauthoritarian regime, such as
immigrants, people of color andLGBTQ plus individuals, would
(28:44):
need some acknowledgement andperhaps reparations.
For transitional justice to beeffective, institutional reforms
are also critical.
The very institutions thatenabled authoritarianism courts,
law enforcement, the media mustbe reformed to prevent a return
to such abuses.
Strengthening checks andbalances, ensuring the
(29:07):
independence of the judiciaryand reforming the electoral
system to make it moretransparent and inclusive are
essential steps in rebuildingtrust In a post-authoritarian US
.
The Supreme Court and lowercourts, many of which had been
stacked with Trump loyalists,would need reform to restore
impartiality.
(29:27):
Electoral reforms might includeending gerrymandering, creating
stronger voter protections andintroducing more transparent
election monitoring.
Finally, there's the criticaltask of reconciliation.
The authoritarian period wouldlikely have left the US deeply
divided, with some citizensstaunchly supporting the regime
(29:49):
and others having resisted.
A national reconciliationprocess would aim to bridge this
divide, fostering dialogue andunderstanding between opposing
sides.
This could involve communityforums where citizens from
different political backgroundscan share their perspectives in
a constructive manner, ornational initiatives that focus
(30:10):
on rebuilding social cohesion.
Reconciliation doesn't meanerasing accountability, but it
does mean finding ways tocoexist peacefully in a
pluralistic democracy.
Ultimately, transitional justiceis about more than punishment.
It's about rebuilding a societyon principles of fairness,
(30:36):
transparency and human rights.
It's important to note thattransitional justice, when
misapplied or applied withouttrue commitment, can also fail.
A clear failure of transitionaljustice can be found right here
in the United States in theaftermath of the Civil War.
Rather than pursuing acomprehensive justice process,
the Reconstruction period wasmarked by incomplete reforms,
missed opportunities for racialreconciliation and, ultimately,
(30:59):
a retreat from accountability.
Former Confederate leaders werenot held to account in any
meaningful way, and the Southwas allowed to implement laws
and policies that reinforcedwhite supremacy and oppression,
including Jim Crow laws.
The failure to punishConfederate leaders and the
quick reintegration of Southernstates without significant
(31:20):
institutional reform left thelegacy of slavery and racism
largely unaddressed.
This is Dr Nalepa againexplaining this failure.
Dr. Nalepa (31:31):
I like the example of the United States, because
for many years it's been veryhard for me to convince American
political scientists thattransitional justice is a
legitimate subfield and that weshould be talking about dealing
with regimes.
And this is an importantquestion, not just for NASA and
new democracies, such as theones that emerged in the third
wave, but also ones like yousaid yourself, the very sort of
(31:55):
like gradual transitions.
But the lack of this cleardemarcation point, right, that
makes it hard to figure out.
Okay, so when?
When is the right moment fortransitioning justice?
And so, yeah, so clearly, atsome point between the late 18th
century and now the UnitedStates democratized, we
basically have universal votingrights and universal right to
(32:16):
contest the elections.
Anybody can run for office, ofcourse, having secured enough
funding for campaigns.
But you know, when you includelocal office, it's actually, I
wouldn't say fairly easy, butit's fairly possible to run for
elections.
But because of it seems that,because of the most atrocious
(32:36):
undermining of rights happenedso far in the past, the
opportunities for transitionaljustice are now very limited,
right?
So you very correctlyidentified you know the end of
the Civil War as the rightmoment.
Very correctly identified, youknow the end of the Civil War as
the right moment.
But I think what the UnitedStates went through, you know,
in the period of Reconstructionand then Jim Crow, was something
(32:56):
that's actually very familiarto a lot of new democracies,
right Like there's this tensionbetween accountability for what
happened in the past and thissort of like orientation to the
future, so that we don't missthis moment when, you know,
we're building new institutionsand the most important thing is
to organize our democraticprocedures in a way that you
know that will set us up forsuccess.
(33:19):
So this is a very, very familiartension and you know we saw it
in various third wavetransitions to democracy.
You know, from Spain In Spain,actually, there was a formal
institution, the Pact ofForgetting, where elites made
these mutual promises that youknow we won't investigate what
happened during the Civil War,you won't investigate what
(33:41):
happened under Franco, and we'llall just focus on, you know,
building a new Spain and itlasted until it didn't.
You know Poland, hungary wentthrough similar, similar
dilemmas and I have a sense thatthis must have been also
something that happened in theUnited States, right, where,
well, you know we can, we canspend a lot of time like fixing
(34:01):
and, you know holdingaccountable, you know the
members of the Confederacy andtheir collaborators for all
kinds of things that happened inthe past, or we can actually
start working towards a newunion.
Shawn (34:16):
This failure of transitional justice allowed for
the reestablishment of whitedominance in the South, the
disenfranchisement of AfricanAmericans and the perpetuation
of racial violence, includinglynching and segregation.
The country failed to reconcilethe deep divisions between
North and South, and theconsequences of this are still
felt today in the form ofsystemic racism and political
(34:39):
polarization.
This failure can havedisastrous consequences.
Dr Nalepa explains why.
Dr. Nalepa (34:47):
But clearly there are lots of grievances that were
not dealt with and now, well,those who are directly
responsible for those grievanceshave died, those who are
victims of those grievances havealso died, and it seems that
all that is left is basicallycompensating victims, their
descendants, and telling thetruth right?
(35:08):
So so it's not that you knowthat transitional justice
options, such a long time afterthe transition actually happened
, are impossible.
There are just fewer of them,and you know, and they might not
be fully satisfactory, and youknow, and even in those cases,
what we see right now, thebacklash against, you know,
teaching, critical race theory,you know the whole banned books
(35:31):
movement.
It just shows how, even inthose I want to say those who
inherited wealth because ofunjust institutions and giving
them to victims, but there'sstill a lot of backlash.
(35:53):
So just the fact thattransitional justice
institutions were notimplemented and that
transitional justice did nottake place doesn't mean it
doesn't come to haunt us laterin the future, because in this
country there clearly is ademand for transitional justice.
Often it's called, you know,demands for racial justice, but
(36:13):
I see this, as you know, partand parcel of the same set of
institutions.
Shawn (36:19):
The successes of transitional justice show that
accountability, truth andreconciliation can help rebuild
societies and prevent futureauthoritarianism or conflict.
However, failures like thoseafter the American Civil War
highlight the dangers ofprioritizing unity over justice,
allowing deep societal woundsto fester.
(36:41):
A thorough, honest reckoningwith the past is crucial to
creating a just and lastingpeace.
Should the United Statesexperience a slide into
authoritarianism under DonaldTrump and the Republican Party,
it's clear that transitionaljustice holds the key to
eventually rebuilding a nationthat will have been scarred by
repression, division and fear.
(37:03):
Years of unchecked power, thesilencing of dissent and the
erosion of civil liberties willhave culminated in a fractured
society, with trust indemocratic institutions at an
all-time low.
But transitional justice offersa roadmap for healing.
Truth-seeking, criminalaccountability, reparations,
(37:23):
institutional reform andreconciliation are the pillars
that will allow the UnitedStates to confront its past and
build a stronger future.
There are also some concretemechanisms that future builders
of a newer, better Americandemocracy will have to consider
in crafting a new politicalsystem, a new constitution, and
(37:44):
in doing so, they can certainlylearn from some of the
weaknesses and thevulnerabilities that have
contributed, even been exploited, to dismantling democracy in
the United States.
Dr Alistair Smith, politicalscientist and professor at New
York University, expert onpolitical leadership,
authoritarian regimes and theintersection of politics and
(38:05):
economics, and co-author of theDictator's Handbook, describes
some of these vulnerabilities.
Dr. Smith (38:12):
I find the concerns we should have in the United
States at the moment are a lotmore about packing judiciary and
allowing votes to be countedand discounted the need for ID
that is designed purely to keeppeople who have a legitimate
right from voting.
I think those are much moreserious concerns than some of
(38:37):
these sort of global issues andwe should be very attentive to
those, but I think that very fewpeople want to go along with
eroding political rights.
There's, of course, very simpleways to increase the
accountability of the USgovernment.
Getting rid of the ElectoralCollege would massively improve
the incentive of the presidentto work for the United States
(39:01):
people instead of appealing tothe middle of the road voters in
a handful of states, which isthe current situation we have.
But getting such rules to passis extremely difficult given the
constitutional rules.
There's a lot of pushback atthe moment against party
gerrymandering and I thinkthat's a phenomenal way to
(39:21):
improve accountability.
We could change primary rules.
That would actually greatlyimprove the ability of voters to
speak their mind and makepolitical leaders much more
accountable to the voters.
I'm not going to say it can'tbe improved and it could be.
It's been a phenomenalpolitical system.
(39:42):
We just have to look at thelevel of economic growth and
enfranchisement improvementsover the years.
But there are easy fixes, ofcourse.
Always with these things, it'snot that we don't know a better
solution, it's how do we getbetter solutions in place?
(40:02):
I think a lot of these thingsis we should in some sense
grandfather in rules.
You know we want to get rid ofthe Electoral College, but let's
have a constitutional rule toget rid of it in 30 years,
because states don't know ifthey're going to be the marginal
ones that the president's goingto want to kiss up to in 30
years' time.
(40:22):
So getting rid of a rule thatprivileges a few states is not
something those few states willwant to veto now, but the
current politicians have muchless interest in vetoing that in
the future.
So we can improve the US systemof government.
The question is finding ways toget it done that is in the
(40:45):
interest of the currentpoliticians through whom the
system needs to be charged.
Shawn (40:51):
Democracy is fragile and this authoritarian period in
America reminds us how quicklyfreedoms can be stripped away.
This is Stephen Marche,novelist, essayist and cultural
commentator known for his workson politics and culture,
including the Future ofDemocracy and the decline of
American political stability,and author of the book the Next
(41:11):
Civil War, discussing how ourfirst American president feared
this current politicalenvironment.
Stephen Marche (41:19):
Well, the most extraordinary document that I
read during the entire processof writing the Next Civil War
was George Washington's farewellletter, which used to be read
out loud in school.
Children memorized it like theymemorized the Bill of Rights
and the Declaration ofIndependence and so on.
It's a truly extraordinarydocument because Washington
predicted exactly what justhappened.
(41:40):
I mean like he spelled it outso clearly what the danger was.
That it's almost like, well,you should have taken, like you
knew there was a flaw in yoursystem right, like you should
have.
You should have worked out someway out of this.
But I mean the.
It's an extraordinary work ofprediction to get to get the
(42:02):
fall of your own country right240 years after you wrote it.
It's regional disputes, it'spartisanship over country.
I mean, the truth is there aremany, many american politicians
who believe that their party is,is the country right and and
(42:23):
therefore the only country, theonly america that matters is the
america of their pardon.
This is the, this is kind.
Matters is the America of theirpardon.
This is kind of the core thingof American politics and the
core disaster.
Shawn (42:36):
Protecting democracy requires constant effort, not
just from leaders, but from us,the citizens.
It means staying informed,speaking out against injustice
and holding power to account andvoting for democracy.
Every time, including thisNovember.
As we conclude this AfterAmerica series, it's clear that
(42:58):
the story of Democraticbacksliding, even a rise of
authoritarianism in the UnitedStates is not just a distant
possibility.
It's a very real threat thatwe've explored from multiple
angles From the language ofothering and demonization under
Republican Party leadership toright-wing media, echo chambers
that encourage and promotepolarization, to the erosion of
(43:20):
democratic norms, to theweaponization of misinformation,
to how evangelicals haveabandoned Christian values to
become soldiers for Trump, tothe ways in which Republicans
have stacked the courts withright-wing ideologues, to the
empowerment of far-right militiagroups and the rise of
political violence in Americanpolitics, to Donald Trump's coup
(43:41):
attempt in January of 2021.
This series has painted apicture of a country on the
brink, but, more importantly, ithas shown us how a nation might
fall warning signs to look forand, in today's episode, how it
could rise again.
We've looked into the historyof authoritarian regimes across
the globe, using the lens ofcountries like Hungary, russia,
(44:05):
germany and the Roman Empire, tounderstand the patterns that
lead to democratic collapse and,more critically, the efforts
required to rebuild.
We've explored how institutions, once the protectors of freedom
, can be hollowed out andtransformed into tools of
repression.
But we've also seen thatauthoritarianism, while deeply
destructive, is not invincible.
Power struggles, corruption andpopular unrest can topple even
(44:29):
the strongest regimes, and todaywe've examined the concept of
transitional justice that iscentral to understanding how a
post-authoritarian America couldbegin to heal.
Truth-seeking, accountabilityand institutional reform are not
just buzzwords.
They're essential pillars for anation that has endured
authoritarian rule and seeks torestore democracy.
(44:52):
The future of America willdepend on its ability to learn
from its past, and while thisseries has imagined the collapse
of democracy, it is a reminderof the resilience of democratic
ideals.
The road to recovery, whetherthat begins now or out of the
ashes of a burned-out democracysometime in the future, will be
long and it will be difficult,but with dedication to justice
(45:15):
and transparency and unity,america can emerge stronger than
before.
It is our shared responsibilityto ensure that the next chapter
in this story is one of renewaland hope.
So vote to save democracy inthe United States this November
5th and join us next week as ourflagship series Deep Dive
(45:36):
returns with a special episode,with all of the contributors to
After America over these past 12weeks discussing how much hope,
if any, they have in theresilience, in fact the
continued existence of Americandemocracy.
And as a final scrap of foodfor thought, a final warning
really I'm going to leave youwith Dr Faris' thoughts on the
(45:58):
American capacity to sleepwalkinto authoritarianism.
Dr. Faris (46:11):
I think that there would be multiple inflection
points where Trump and theRepublicans will do things to
consolidate their power, toexpand their power, to weaken
the architecture of democracy,but the effects of those acts
might not be felt right away.
I'm thinking of the Project2025 that Trump's right-wing
allies have put together.
It's available on the internetif you want to read it.
(46:32):
Part of that plan is to havelike tens of thousands of
positions inside the federalbureaucracy stripped of their
protection.
In other words, these would bemade like 50,000 new political
appointees where Trump can go in, clear out lifelong civil
servants and then replace themwith Heritage Foundation
ideologues or wherever he'sgoing to pull from.
(46:54):
That's really dangerous, right,but it's also.
You're going to wake up thenext morning and the world will
keep turning, and I think somepeople will conclude like, well,
50,000 out of 2 million, what'sthe big deal?
Like?
Ultimately, we survive.
You can see like a series ofthose things happening where
(47:16):
Trump and the Republicans puttheir plans in motion, like they
passed this law that's beenintroduced in the house you know
what they call like theelection integrity act, but that
would have the effect of makingvoting a lot harder for a lot
of different people, among manyother things it's like again,
you have to think of it as likeone piece of a puzzle designed
(47:36):
to make it all but impossible toget Republicans out of power at
the federal level and, to theextent that they still leave
enough openings where you know,opposition can claim victories
here and there.
My fear is that people will notrecognize what has happened
until it is too late, in otherwords, until enough of these
little inflection points havebeen manipulated by Republicans
(48:01):
and you lose rights and you loseprocedures and you lose
pathways to change and reform.
My fear is that those thingswill unfold over a series of
years and that we're going towake up in like 2027 or 2029 and
realize, like the way that weused to defeat a political party
(48:22):
, the way that we used to defeatpresidents, is no longer
available to us in likeprecisely the same way that it
used to be, because theseefforts to undermine the basic
guardrails and the basicunderpinnings of American
democracy have actually beenquite successful and we just
won't notice until it's too latewhen you clear out civil
(48:42):
servants and then you can justsort of use the federal
government as a campaign arm.
That's not a tanks-in tanks inthe street moment, but it is
something that makes thepolitical system much, much less
fair to people who are out ofpower.
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