EP#387 | GUEST | Reverand Munther Isaac: The Palestinian Pastor Shaking Up American Christianity - Deep Shallow Dive

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
The following podcast is a deep,shallow dive production and
you're going to love it. OK, let's go.
All right, Reverend, so normallywhen I do these podcasts, I
don't necessarily prepare as much as I did for this one.

(00:22):
But honestly, I've I have so much respect for you and I've
been a a follower of your content for the past two years
that I really wanted to do this right.
So listen, everybody, today is is another just complete
pleasure for me. And I think it's going to be for
all of you guys as well. And we are joined with Reverend

(00:43):
Dr. Munther Isaac. Let me to read this because it
it deserves to be read it says Doctor Isaac.
Reverend Dr. Isaac is a theologian, pastor, and one of
the most courageous voices speaking from the heart of the
Holy Land. He is the pastor of the Hope
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Ramallah now, and you may have

(01:06):
recognized him from his appearance on Tucker Carlson's
podcast or read some of his powerful reflections on what it
means to follow Christ under occupation.
And man, I really want to get into this and what it means to
stand for the truth when silencehas become so easy.
Reverend Isaac has spoken boldlyabout Christian Zionism,

(01:28):
dispensational theology, and we're going to get into that.
I've talked a lot about dispensationalism, but this is
going to be so great to get his perspective on that.
And quite frankly, the way certain interpretations of
Scripture, especially passages like Genesis 12/3, which I think
Senator Ted Cruz made that famous, how they've really been

(01:49):
used to justify political agendas instead of pursuing
peace and justice. OK, I'm going to end it there
and say welcome to the deep, shallow dive.
I'm looking forward to just having such an enlightful
conversation with you and you know, really for starters, I'd
love for you to, you know, just share with us what your goal is

(02:10):
right now in terms of really, really helping Americans in
America, quite frankly, understand what is going on in
Gaza and understanding that fromfrom a Christian perspective.
Yeah, thank you, Ray. Thank you for this conversation
and the space. I really appreciate it and I
don't take this opportunity for granted.

(02:33):
And to ask me about my goal is actually interesting because I
am first and foremost a pastor right now in Ramallah.
I pastored in Bethlehem, where Icome from, for many years.
So my first priority has always been caring for my folks,
whether when I teach in biblicalat Bethlehem Bible College or
when I pastor, has always been how to serve my people.

(02:55):
Right now, my main priority, howto keep Christians in the Holy
Land, how to keep Christians in Palestine and stop them from
believing. But what leads me to speak a
lot, and honestly more than I want to the American church is
the fact that my reality, even my suffering, is heavily
influenced and shaped by the positions of the American

(03:16):
church. The fact that the American
church has four years by and large supported Israel, not just
theologically or by giving religious justification,
theological justifications, public justifications, but also
have pushed heavily for political positions that
directly leads to making life harder for me and my community,

(03:38):
namely real life under Israeli occupation.
And that's why my community is leaving.
So the fact that I speak a lot about whether the war on Gaza
the last two years or before that sharing in general about
the reality on the ground, the fact that I speak to American
churches is because they are directly impacting my reality.
So even when I speak about, you know, I've been advocating

(04:00):
heavily for a ceasefire for ending this war in in Gaza from
the very beginning, to our shockand horror, the American
Christians, especially in the beginning, actually actually
supported this war, even would not join our cause for a
ceasefire. This is a war that has killed

(04:24):
some of our friends, people we know, relatives to people who
are parts of my congregations. So this kind of gap that exists
today between what Palestinian Christians think and believe and
how they live and what American Christians think and believe is
so huge that, as I said, it's impacting our lives directly.

(04:46):
So to answer, you know, short, to answer your question
directly, what is it that I tried to say is I wish American
Christians knew how much impact they have over my life by
continuing to support Israel, itseems unconditionally.
I understand that. I totally understand that.
Let me ask you this and set the stage for the audience.

(05:08):
Ramallah, can you just help us understand?
I forget, Is that in the West Bank?
Is that in Gaza? Where is that?
Ramallah is in the West Bank. We are north of Jerusalem.
In normal circumstances, I woulddrive from Ramallah through
Jerusalem to Bethlehem in less than 30 minutes.
Of course, Ramallah is completely surrounded, besieged

(05:30):
like Bethlehem, not just from Jerusalem but from the rest of
the West Bank. Everything is now through
Israeli checkpoints and gates. So Ramallah is in itself a big
prison in the West Bank, just like Bethlehem and just like
tragically Reza was for many years.
Obviously it's better for us right now in the West Bank

(05:52):
controlled by the Palestinian Authority than it was for Gazans
throughout the years, especiallycontrolled by Hamas.
But then the wars, the differentwars and so on.
But still we are suffering from Israeli occupation and and all
the policies. Yeah, that makes total sense.
You know, you're obviously one of the most outspoken and quite
frankly one of the most famous Christian pastors from that area

(06:14):
when you talk about Christians in America, like do you have a
direct connection with hell anyone?
Well, I shouldn't have said hell, anyone at the anyone at
the White House or do you have adirect connection with, you
know, some of these some of these mega churches and you
know, Franklin Graham and Kenneth Copeland and who else

(06:36):
John Hagee out of Texas. Honestly, I'm not a fan of those
guys. I think those guys are part of
the group that quite frankly hasweaponized Christianity and
turned it political. But out of curiosity, as as such
a prominent Christian pastor, doyou have Christian organizations

(06:57):
in America that lookout for you or even that give you guys
funding or financial help or is there anything there?
So thank God we have friends. Not enough and nothing in
comparison to the names you've mentioned, especially in terms
of how much influence even, you know, I would say even money,
they have political influence. So nothing in comparison to

(07:20):
that. But we have support.
And usually it's the fact that Lutherans in the United States
support Lutherans in, in Palestine, Catholics have a
strong Catholic support, especially to enable us to
continue our ministries. We're on schools, hospitals,
Christian organizations. So for example, if you ask many
Lutherans in in the United States, they are aware of us,

(07:40):
they are aware of our ministries.
But where we have maybe a biggerchallenges with, with the
evangelical and and charismatic and Pentecostal leaders.
We have made some connections inthe last few years and then
definitely in the war. But honestly, many of them don't
want to talk to us. And many of them, you know, have

(08:01):
adopted, as I said, positions that maybe even see us as an
obstacle and as part of the problem just by virtue of living
in the land they believe God gave to the Jews.
Yeah. So in a sense, we pose a
problem, especially to those with strong theological
positions. So whereas I cannot deny that
yes, there are those who supportus, who opened their churches

(08:23):
for us, at the same time there are many more who would not even
meet, let alone invite us to speak in their churches.
In my first book, The Other Sideof the Wall, I talked about the
many, many incidents in which wewere even disinvited from
gatherings because we are Palestinians and somehow we
don't fit a certain paradigm. Right, right.

(08:46):
And of course, I sometimes when I travel to the United States
and find myself in the East Coast, I made the intention to
visit the Congress, try to make connections.
I find it difficult there to be honest, because every Congress
person has their agendas, different ones.
But, you know, we're trying to tell us, especially those who
talk about either we support Israel or religious freedoms.

(09:09):
I mean, do you realize the impact all of this is having on
our sometimes even policies madeby the Congress impact us.
I remember, for example, in the first Trump presidency, a
decision was made to suspend aidto certain entities that
included a big Lutheran hospitalin Jerusalem that serves cancer

(09:32):
patients. It, I mean, it was a big blow to
that our ministry. So we try to reach out to
Congress members. I mean, are you aware you are
jeopardizing our ministry, even that of a hospital?
So we try to always be in touch.I wish I could say we're making
impact or, you know, we're not abig lobby.
No, I get it. I get it.

(09:53):
I get it. And, and quite frankly, you're
probably a, a piece of Christianity and the Christian
world, that other side of Christians in the United States,
they don't want you making noisebecause they probably don't
agree with your interpretation of what's going on.
You know, that to me has become very apparent.

(10:14):
I've seen a real division, quitefrankly, within the Christian
community, within MAGA in the United States, the whole Trump
movement right now. And his base of support is
incredible divided. And the division is, is because
of the lack of release of the Epstein files.
And quite frankly, the, the, theway many people see, you know,

(10:39):
putting Israel 1st and not America first.
That's really interesting. You're kind of you're kind of
caught in a catch 22 a little bit.
And and, you know, to be honest,I don't want to, I'm not
American, obviously, so I'm not going to, you know, get into
American politics. But what sometimes surprises us
is that those who are on, let's say, the right who championed

(11:01):
the cause of pro-life right, areat the same time supporting the
killing of children, you know? Yeah, that's.
A great. And that's what we don't, that's
what we don't get. You're supposed to be pro less.
That's one of the messages. We always communicate at the
same time, you know, there's so much emphasis on religious
freedom. I am in Bethlehem.

(11:24):
I can go to Jerusalem. I can go and worship.
Cannot go to Jerusalem. I need there is a wall, there's
a checkpoint. I need a permit from the Israeli
military. Now, thank God I have the
permit. After so much, so many times
applying, the church applies on on my behalf.
But the vast majority, the vast,vast majority of Palestinian
Christians who live in Bethlehemor Ramallah cannot even go to

(11:46):
Jerusalem to pray during Christian holidays.
So, you know, are you aware whatexactly you are supporting?
But honestly, there is this mentality that prefers to see
this situation and to be honest,Netanyahu feeds on that.
Really, politicians feeds on that to look at Palestine as a

(12:07):
battleground between good and evil, with good being the
judeo-christian tradition versusevil being Islam.
And that's when we tell people that is a misreading of
everything that's happening here.
Hamas did not exist in 1948 or 1967.
Right, right. Hamas does not exist in the West
Bank. Our cause is not religious, but,

(12:30):
you know, the fact that we are Palestinian Christians, you
know, disturbs that well to you.And you know, it's interesting
that in his last speech at the UN, the United Nations,
Netanyahu said, you know, Israelis the only place where
Christians are are flourishing. You know, forget the fact that,
you know, that's not true about many other places in the Middle

(12:50):
East, for example, Jordan or even Lebanon where the president
is Christian. You know, why would he bring
that? He is bringing that to win an
audience. Of course to.
Characterize we're fighting religious Islamic extremism.
And by the way, you know how misleading that is.
Because I mean, whenever I get into compositions like this, I

(13:14):
find myself having to remind many Christians that the
Holocaust, you know, the biggestevil of butchering, you know,
the massacre of 6,000,000 Jews was not committed by Muslims or
Palestinians or Arabs. So have we forgotten that?
But, you know, today in today's politics, you do you say
whatever you want to win those in power.

(13:34):
Obviously, today the United States is, you know, one of if
not the leading power in our world.
So, you know, you know how angrywe get as Palestinian Christians
when we hear statements like this, you know, using US by
mischaracterizing everything. And you know, you wish saving
the Israel is treating us, you know, and they're not.

(13:57):
Absolutely. Let me ask you this.
So do Palestinian Christians like yourself and every other
one? Do you guys get along with the
Palestinian Muslims? Of course we do.
I'm not claiming it's perfect. But yeah, here is what most
people don't get. We're not an ethnic minority.
In other words, usually in the Western mind, when people think
of minorities, you think of people who look different, who

(14:21):
speak different, maybe who have different cultures.
In Palestine, we're Arabs and Muslims and Christians in the
Middle East have been living together for 1400 years, same
accent, same dialect, same food,fame, culture.
And there's in most cases, I don't want to say in all cases,
mutual respect. But even beyond that, in

(14:44):
Ramallah, for example, the Palestinian authorities in
control in our government, whichis self autonomy, but Israel
still the the ultimate reality. But in the in the self
governance of the Palestinian Authority, there are many
Christians. Although in the Palestinian
territories we are 1%, yet we have several Christian
government official in very highpositions.

(15:07):
I think Christians in Ramallah know where I am right now make
10%. The mayor is a Christian.
Wow. So there is a quota.
I don't know if you understand that system, a quota system.
That's something by custom, mainly by a status quo that the
mayors of Bethlehem, Raballah, Beit Sahur, Bejal, I think 8 or
9 Palestinian towns and and cities, it's the custom that

(15:30):
it's a Christian. So only Christians nominate
themselves. And by the way, there is no rule
that says only Christians can nominate themselves.
So by the letter of the law, a Muslim can nominate him or
herself, but there is disrespect.
Ramallah traditionally has been a Christian town.
OK. So people respect that.
And the political parties respect that.
And only Christians nominate themselves.

(15:51):
And right now, the mayor and Ramallah for for many years,
since the establishment of the Palestinian Authority, has been
Christian. So we have found ways to
coexist, to live together again.You know, sometimes there are
things we can't. We wish we could tweak.
Yes, absolutely. This is the Middle East, you
know, I wish we can change certain things, but by and large

(16:13):
I think we are doing well together.
Yes, I. Feel like, you know, at the end
of the day, nobody gets along with anybody, even your wife,
husband, child, father, mother, nobody gets along all the time.
But from my research and from what I've understood, I feel
like Christians and Muslims in Palestine or wherever for that

(16:33):
matter, inside the Middle East, they actually like each other
more than they dislike each other.
The problem is that's not the narrative that politics wants to
portray. You know, when you have 2.6
billion Christians globally, 2.1billion Muslims globally, it's
much better for politics, for the military industrial complex,

(16:56):
for all of that stuff to have those two groups hate each other
and fight versus get along. Because if they get along,
there's no money in that. You know, it's very similar to
the left versus the right in theUnited States division.
Division. Equals money.
What you said this, right, Unfortunately, many people

(17:17):
benefit from that and sadly and shamefully and I and I think
many times when we talk about these issues, we simplify it too
much. Yeah, ignoring that there are
other nuances to this, for example, the tribal element,
political elements. And at the same time, having

(17:38):
said that, that does not deny that there are religious
extremists who use certain extreme ideologies, exclusive
ideologies, to kill. ISIS is real.
It exists. They burned churches, they
killed Christians and other minorities, by the way,
including other Muslims, not just others.
But we focus only on the fact that they killed Christians, you
know, ISIS killed diseases and and Kurds and so on.

(17:59):
So yes, it's complicated. Yes, we need to ask who's
funding that? Yes, we need to ask where do
they get the weapons? Why are they rising now?
You know why all of a sudden, you know someone who was ISIS is
the president of Syria who supports that?
We need to ask these questions for sure.
But at the same time, we cannot deny that religious extremism

(18:19):
does exist. It's a problem.
Let's be honest, it is a problem.
Absolutely. There, there always is the
extremists as the outliers. I guess my perspective is the
extremists are the minority of the religion, not the majority
of the religion. And so the appearance that's
trying to to be given is that extremists are all Muslims,

(18:42):
where quite frankly, it's such asmall percentage of those
Muslims. Like there's any extremists in
every in every category. No, I totally agree with you.
OK, Let me ask you about Genesis12.
Three, because this has become probably the most popular verse
or piece of scripture that's being discussed.
And I think actually, Tucker Carlson's interview with Senator

(19:06):
Ted Cruz really blew this thing wide open.
Can you give us your, I don't know if you'd call it your
interpretation or your understanding or your, quite
frankly, your opinion on what Genesis 12 three is saying and
meant to say? Yes, and by the way, this is not

(19:27):
the first time Genesis 12 to 3 is used and cited.
We've discussed this before and in many forums, but I think the
Tucker Carson interview brought it to surface in in, you know,
mainstream discussion. And I think I'm grateful for
that because finally, you know, people are beginning to see and

(19:47):
I hope question what's happeninghere.
And let me be a bit provocative before answering this question
by sharing this story because asI said, this is not the first
time a the congressman uses this.
During the hearings about the university encampments in the
early stages of the war. I can't remember exactly when
maybe and the then president of University of Colombia was being

(20:11):
questioned in the Congress. Yes, I think it was Congressman
Ellen or something who asked her.
Do you know Genesis 12? And I remember.
Yes, yes, I remember. And he said, then, do you want
to be cursed by the God of the Bible?
Yes, yes, he's that. He was the old white guy.
He was one of the old white guys.

(20:32):
I don't even remember which congressman it was.
You're totally right. He asked.
He asked for Do you want to be cursed by the Bible?
And I found that interesting because I don't want, again, my
issue is not right or left in the American politics.
But can you just imagine for thesake of argument, if it was a

(20:54):
one of the Muslim congresswoman who said this and ask the
question, do you want to be cursed by Allah, the God of the
Quran for supporting Israel? Imagine the approach or the
thinking and I wish people, you know, really listen to
themselves. So the question of Genesis 12,

(21:16):
before we answer it, we need to actually stop and ask what is
what? What is it exactly that those
who use this first, was it that they're saying?
What they're basically saying isthat God, the creator of heaven
and earth, who's all merciful, all loving, all compassionate,

(21:36):
all just God in our Christian faith, who was revealed himself,
who revealed himself in Jesus Christ crucified, rose again to
give us eternal life, to forgiveour sins.
That this God then conditions his relationship to human beings
based on how those human beings relate to a secular state today.

(22:00):
Just pause for a moment and think of that.
So he doesn't care if I believe or don't.
He doesn't care if I love my neighbor.
He doesn't care which religion Iam in.
He will bless me or curse me notbased on if I believe in the
Trinity or in the resurrection of Jesus.
No, he will bless me or curse mebased on how I treat Israel,

(22:21):
Netanyahu and a country that is a country that is today by so
many reports and analysis and studies including Jewish,
Israeli, Zionist scholars committing a genocide.
So if I bless that state that iscommitting A genocide today, or

(22:43):
if you just think it's committing war crimes or
involved in a brutal war, that decides whether God will bless
me or not. Because I think we need to stop
before answering. We need to ask people, do you
are? Are you listening to yourself?
Yeah. In terms of what you're asking
people to believe. So if you want God to bless you,

(23:05):
forget about loving the neighbor, feeding the hungry,
believing in Jesus, believing inthe resurrection, forget all
about that. It all depends on how you relate
to the state of Israel. I mean, it's an It's ridiculous.
That is. That this is how this verse is
misused. I really appreciate you saying
that. I that that laid it out in a way

(23:28):
that quite frankly, I don't think anyone's taken the step
back. When I ask people the question,
they immediately launch into theanswer.
But I love the way you just did that because by setting it up,
the way you set it up, it almostmakes it to where it's
ridiculous. If you think that the verse
means you must support the modern state of Israel

(23:50):
unequivocally. It can't even make sense with
that. But but what's crazy is so many
people continue to interpret it like that.
And. And I guess the question is why
is it dispensationalism? And maybe we move into
dispensationalism, unless you wanted to finish on Genesis 12
three. Is there any?

(24:10):
Yeah, I mean. Why it's, it's, I mean, we have
to ask, is it just bad theology really?
Is it theological laziness? In other words, are you really
reading your scriptures? Because I mean, first of all, by
the way, if you search the Bible, if you bless Israel, God

(24:31):
will bless you. You won't find that sentence,
right? It's a sentence that's addressed
to Abraham. And God tells Abraham, I will
bless those who bless you. So let's be clear.
God is talking to Abraham, yes. Now, if you interpret that as
the offspring of Abraham, as a different conversation, who is
the offspring of Abraham? Is it an ethnic entity?

(24:54):
In other words? And, and here, please
understand, I'm not telling, I'mnot saying who a Jew is and who
a Jew is not. I'm not saying that.
I'm just asking a question within the parameter of
Scripture. Who is the offspring of Abraham?
Is it an ethnic issue? If it is an ethnic identity,

(25:14):
then God is racist. Is it that let's read Scripture,
and clearly in Scripture, those from outside of the family of
Abraham believed in the God of Israel and were considered part
of Israel because God is inclusive, not exclusive.
God is the God of all peoples, and that's clearly the message
of the New Testament when it says that the blessing of

(25:34):
Abraham came to the nations through Jesus to all our people
because God is not as if exclusive to one people group.
So we did again. I mean, are are you reading the
same scripture? Sometimes I wonder because in
the New Testament it's clear that the blessing of Abraham is
channeled through Christ to anyone who believes, but no one

(25:56):
talks. About Christ, right and
believes. In Christ, if you, if you read
the New Testament, for example, there are very direct explicit
references. For example, Paul says in
Galatians 3, Abraham does not have many offsprings as in the
plural, but in the singular 1 offspring and that is Christ.
Then he says if you are into Christ, you are Abraham's

(26:19):
offspring earth according to thepromise.
So even the promises, if you believe they are physical, of
course, that's another question.Is God talking about a small
piece of land in the Middle Eastthat today we call Palestine
Israel? But even if you believe that and
then you want to be literal, as they tell us, when you go to the
New Testament, you are heir according to the promise, based

(26:40):
on your position, you know, if you are into Christ.
And so those Christians who use that are not consistent.
And of course, some of it is dispensationalism that insisted
there is a spiritual blessing and a physical blessing, as if
God is somehow confused. To the Christians He gave a
spiritual blessing. To the Jews, He gives the land a

(27:01):
earthly blessing. God has two peoples, one that is
spiritual, one, one that is earthly.
That's at least what they tell us.
God has two plans, one for the Jews, one for everyone else.
The church, OK, that is actuallydispensationalism that, you
know, believes that God is dealing with humanity in the old

(27:21):
times is something in the Old Testament.
Then it changes completely in the New Testament.
And then God will reestablish the connection or the
relationship with Israel after the church disappears.
The rapture, if you grew up in the day and times of the Left
Behind series where, you know, all of a sudden we disappear and
then there is confusion and thenGod goes back to deal with with

(27:44):
Israel. And what's really interesting in
all of that, I'm sorry, I'm bringing too many things and I
hope I'm not confusing your audience, is that in that
dispensational scenario and those who follow that really
relate to Jews as objects in their theological schemes or
eschatology. And in many of those scenarios,
when God deals again with the Jewish people, he brings them to

(28:06):
Palestine, then guess what? 2/3 will be massacred and the
other third would convert to Christianity.
And somehow that is viewed as a Jewish friendly theology.
Yeah, which I can think. Insane to me, you know, as an
outsider I I don't know if I shared with you or not, but I
was born in Iran and our family moved to the United States when

(28:29):
I was only two years old and andour parents chose not to bring
us up religiously. So ironically, I probably know
more about Christianity now thatI know about Islam because I've
had more Christians on the podcast than Muslims.
And so as an outsider looking in, sometimes it's easier when
you're an outsider looking in. To me, that whole concept of

(28:50):
dispensationalism, which then seems to have gotten delivered
in the early 1900s via the Schofield Bible, that is what
really brainwashed, and I'm going to use that term,
brainwashed the entire baby boomer generation in America,
which right now has become that evangelical Christian base of

(29:13):
support, which which for the most part is really leans toward
the Republican Party. They are all completely
brainwashed with everything thatyou just said.
And you know, the question I always had is didn't the New
Testament, first of all, was it intended to replace the Old
Testament or was it simply a newcovenant?

(29:37):
That is, it is, I guess, createdbetween God and man.
And that covenant basically means if you accept Jesus Christ
and believe in Jesus Christ, it doesn't matter if you're white,
black, green, red, orange, Chinese, Palestinian, Iranian,
American, Portuguese, whatever. If you have taken Jesus Christ

(30:00):
as your Lord and Savior, then you're God's chosen people, or
at least you're accepted by thatfaith.
It's not about a piece of land or where you were born or your
DNA. Like as an outsider, when I
think of God as all knowing, allpowerful, I think there's no way

(30:20):
he's going to limit it that much.
That doesn't make sense. He's got responsibility for the
entire globe, not just a little piece of land, you know?
So reading this relationship between old and you has always
been one of the most challengingquestions in Christian history.
And certainly it's sometimes ledto catastrophic or shameful

(30:44):
results, namely that Jews did not recognize the Messiah.
That's why they're judged. They're condemned forever.
And that's why, you know, we must continue to reject them
somehow. Be careful of them somehow be
weary about they want maybe to control the world or they want
to corrupt our humanity and so on.
So we need to be wary that certain readings or certain

(31:05):
interpretations did exist in ourChristian history that
complicate answering this question.
Having said that, you know, I amof the mindset that the New
Testament completes, fulfills, if you wish, what we call in
our, you know, maybe theology, theological circus, at least my
salvation history, God's dealingwith humanity.

(31:26):
I'm actually, I, you know, what you described about the
universal element of Christianity is actually, one
could argue there are traces of it in even the Hebrew scripture.
In the Old Testament, there are prophecies about Israel's
Messiah being reigning the wholeworld, receiving the entire
nations as his inheritance, the ends of the earth as his

(31:49):
possession. Of course, it's a question of
how is it through battles? Is it through politics or is it
through, as Christians have always argued, through
evangelism, through acts of loveand, and charity and so on?
And what's also very important here to highlight and emphasize
is that the early Christians themselves did not view
themselves as coming outside of Israel, but they view themselves

(32:12):
as the faithful Jews who realized or accepted the Messiah
who came to save the world. So they thought that they were
called to 1st to their own people to show them the Messiah
has arrived, our Messiah has arrived.
And then they run into this dilemma that many from the
Gentiles, pagans if you wish, who are not from our people.

(32:37):
Israelites believed in Jesus so they realized.
But yes, this has always been the plan.
Abrahams the father of many nations.
Hence the Pauline literature that expanded everything by
going back to the Old Testament and saying God's plan has always
been universal and that's why they incorporated Gentiles into

(32:59):
the church as one body. Ecclesia saying it's for all.
But again, my point is it's not as if they said let's start a
new religion, God is done with that, let's start something new.
They thought of themselves as the faithful continuation and of
those who did not believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the

(33:22):
Messiah of Israel, they thought of them as those Israelites who
missed their their Messiah. And of course, in the 2nd
century, maybe that's when a clear split happened between the
two people, between the two groups.
And that's when we have Judaism and and Christianity.
And I always, always say we needto be careful from reading too

(33:45):
much from what happened in 1st century into today's.
So, for example, Christian Jewish dialogue, should should
they be shaped by heavily by what happened 2000 years ago?
Or should these relationships bemore shaped by how do we Live
Today in our community knowing that we disagree on a

(34:05):
fundamental question about the identity of Jesus?
We can go back and continue to exegete these issues from 1st
century and try to offset them into modern reality.
I don't think it's helpful. I don't think it's right.
Or we can say, you know, one of the key found teachings of
Christianity. Jesus said that love your
neighbor as yourself. The Jew is my neighbor.

(34:28):
How do I live in peace with my Jewish neighbor?
What does that mean? How do we challenge one another
to become better believers in God?
How do we call out? How do we respectfully disagree
and say This is why I believe Jesus was crucified and risen
and This is why I think you are wrong for not accepting that.
And maybe he will say no. This is why I believe you were

(34:48):
wrong into believing that Jesus is the Messiah.
Maybe there is space for this conversation, but on top of all,
let's have love towards one another.
The tragedy, the catastrophe is when I look at my Jewish
neighbor today in Brooklyn or inPalestine and think, well, this
is what God said about them 4000years ago.
This is their destiny. I mean, is that really helpful?

(35:11):
That's. Do we serve?
I love that. Yeah, I love that.
I love that you're. You're really talking about
bringing it to the modern day. We need to judge things on the
way they are now, not the way, you know, people thought they
were 4000 years ago. I totally agree.
And I'll tell you the interesting thing that I've
learned about about Jesus and this Messiah conversation is

(35:32):
Muslims agree that Jesus is the Messiah.
I think Muslims agree that he was born of the virgin birth.
I think Muslims and Christians Revere mother Mary.
They find her to be somebody they absolutely love.
From my understanding, and I've really tried to understand, OK,
how different is Christianity and Islam?

(35:54):
And correct me if I'm wrong. To me, the only real difference
is I think the Muslims don't consider him the Father, Son and
the the Holy Spirit. From what I'm understanding, the
Trinity, the Trinity, the Trinity, I'm sorry.
And then and then I think they don't believe that he was
crucified. But even that is because I think

(36:16):
they think Jesus was so good andso God loved him so much, He
wouldn't put him through that. Right, yes, yes, so they.
Have That's not an insult. So it's theologically,
dogmatically, it is a big, of course, it's a foundational
disagreement. But you're right to highlight,

(36:37):
and I think many people miss that, that in Islam Jesus is
referred a lot, respected. He's mentioned in the Quran a
lot. And there are of course, very
interesting texts in the Quran. Some would highlight there's
only one way, one path that is through Islam to God, to Allah.
At the same time, there are other Quranic texts that say no,

(37:00):
you know, you can learn from Christians.
Christians are the closest to usand you wouldn't find anyone
who's closest to you in your faith more than Christians.
That's a verse in the Quran or of course something to that
meaning not literally. So there are even texts that
speak very, very positively about Christians, and there is

(37:20):
definitely a text in the Quran that emphasizes that your God
and our God is 1. The differences remain.
And you know, and when you remember the centrality of the
death and resurrection of Christin Christianity, you understand
that these differences are central or are.
But that does not mean we cannotlive together.

(37:40):
That does not mean we can and dialogue together.
You know, I lead an initiative here in Palestine in which we
bring Bible student theology students with Islamic Sharia
students for conversations. We sit around the same table.
We put different questions aboutGod, theology, civil peace,
different issues that, you know,let's have conversations.

(38:02):
And then they say this is what we've learned from the others.
This is what we did not know. So even as theology students
were preparing them for ministryand they're preparing them to
become clergy, you know, we found, you know, we, we actually
love this initiative when we come together with that's so.
Interesting. You know, and I'm, I'm very sure
that in different circumstances we could do the same with, you

(38:25):
know, Jewish students. The problem today is, of course,
under the current political reality we live in, you know, we
are as if oriented towards seeing the other, as if the
problem is in their religion andin their faith.
And I think that's a dangerous thing to say because if that's
the problem, then basically whatI'm saying as a Christian is I

(38:45):
can't live with what, 5 out of seven people around the world,
you know? Yeah, that doesn't make sense to
me. Like when I think of
Christianity, and again, I'm nota organized religion person, but
what I love about it is I love, love thy neighbor.
Like to me, honestly, you know what my religion is?
My religion is treat people the way I want to be treated and

(39:07):
love thy neighbor. Like to me, I'm like, this is
good. This is like the nicest way to
live life is to love thy neighbor, treat people the way I
want to be treated and just don't do bad things like, like,
like that. And, and I think folks like
yourself and you know, I joke around with a lot of my friends
and I say, hey, the real Christians, that's what they

(39:28):
are. And that's what I learned from
them. And Andre, you don't think we
can find many, many Muslims and Jews who say the same thing?
Absolutely we can. Absolutely we can.
And I feel like. Again, that doesn't that doesn't
mean we have to agree. You know, at the end of the day,
I believe Jesus is the, you know, Son of God, risen,

(39:48):
crucified for my sins, risen to me.
That's, that's, that's very foundational of who I am.
But that doesn't mean I cannot be close friends, partnered with
those who don't agree with me onthis.
I think the world is thirsty to see examples on this.
And if we bring it to everythingthat's happening in Gaza, they

(40:09):
have been speaking in churches for a long time.
But more so in the last two years in the United States, I've
done at least two tours in the United States.
And I've spoken other places also.
And every time now I'm speaking because people have, you know,
recognized me and and watched some of my videos.
I always see in churches Muslimsand Jews.
And they always make it a point to introduce themselves and say,

(40:32):
we're here because we support what you're doing to try to put
an end to this war. And in some instances, you know,
I've met with Christian Jews andMuslims working clergy working
together how to mobilize within their cities, to push on their
politicians to, you know, for a ceasefire to end the war in some

(40:53):
instances to blockade weapons and so on.
You know, there are many good things.
Sadly, no one talks about these things.
Nobody. They're not recorded in the
news. No one talks about how many
interfaith initiatives have emerged in U.S.
Cities and around the world to fight for justice or for other
causes that are relevant to those communities.

(41:16):
No, absolutely. And I love the fact that you do
that and you champion that and bringing the three religions
together to have, you know, justa unified message.
That's what everyone should be focused on.
But like I said earlier, that's not good business.
And that's not, that's unfortunately it's, it's, it's

(41:36):
the greed that runs the world. Let me ask you this in terms of,
you know, in terms of the administration's like, let's say
from, you know, you've been doing this a while.
So from the Obama administrationto Trump to Biden, now back to
Trump. Has there been any difference
in, I guess, how you're treated,how the Christians and and

(41:59):
Palestine are treated? Have you seen a difference in in
and they benefit in a democraticadministration versus a Republic
administration for your quality of life?
Honestly, no. And the reason is there hasn't
been so far an American administration that was able to

(42:19):
stop Israel from implementing what they wanted to do on the
ground, whether it's building settlements in the West Bank.
Most of you know, they're built on Palestinian land, many times
privately owned land, many timesChristian.
You know, we lost land as as a Christian community.
None of that stopped throughout.Not enough was done to put

(42:40):
pressure on Israel to to adhere with the international law, stop
building the settlements or to let's have peace negotiations
because, you know, when was the last time the two parties met
for for serious conversations about how do we reach to a peace
settlement. I've always said that Israel has
been doing what it's been doing in our land and, and by the way,

(43:02):
I can tell you a lot about some of the injustices Israel has
been doing in our land long before October 7th, by the way.
Right, right. It's one thing if you come and
see for yourself that you will be shocked and believe me when
when people come and leave, theysay how did our government with

(43:23):
the ideas they speak, allow thisto continue.
And you're talking about the West Bank?
You're talking about the West Bank, OK, OK.
Gosh. Both West Bank, East Jerusalem
and Gaza. And if I can, you know, I, I
need a whole episode just to tell you about the injustices,
the practices on the ground, theinequality, the oppression we
face, the people killed. OK, Just just want one small

(43:46):
thing, you know how many? Because you know, when the whole
world was outraged, and rightly so by the way, by the kidnapping
or killing of children on October 7th.
We should all be outraged by that. 100%.
We should all condemn that. Our anger as Palestinians wasn't
about the fact that, you know, you know, people condemn them

(44:09):
because, as I said, we should all condemn killing children.
Our anger was why isn't anybody outraged about the killing and
kidnapping of our children? Because they have been
imprisoned, you know, on average, according to the
different human rights organizations and to monitor
things, on average, every year you will find up to 300

(44:29):
Palestinian children in prisons,many times without charges,
administrative detention. Why isn't anybody talking about
that? Every year Palestinian children
are killed by Israeli military. Why isn't anybody talking about
it? Are our.
Children Palestinian Muslim children and Christian children
both. Everyone, you know, even with

(44:51):
the arrest, I mean, we are, we, our numbers are smaller of
course, so you don't see it a lot.
But even, you know, a few years ago, two years ago, there was a,
you know, well known case about a school child, a Christian from
Jerusalem who was imprisoned or house arrest because for a
while. So it happens to everyone.

(45:13):
Got it. And when I say this, what I'm
trying to say is how does Israelget along with all of that?
How does Israel get along with the fact that they can detain
children without seeing a lawyer, without charges?
They don't even bother to tell you what the charges are.

(45:34):
You know, sometimes the, you know, there are human rights
lawyers who go and say, we want to defend this person.
You know, what are the charges? And they say we can't tell you.
So while imprisoning him, it's security, administrative
detention. It could go for years, by the
way, this administrative detention.

(45:54):
How does Israel get away with that?
How does Islam get away with confiscating land by force,
building settlements on them fortheir people?
How does Israel get away from taking water from our land?
And then with the current distribution of water, the only
explaining, the only reason is they have both political and

(46:16):
financial support, mainly from the United States.
That's absolutely right. That's absolutely right.
So. This is what we've been trying
to tell the world, and neither Republicans or Democratic
administrations were able to stop that.
Yeah. No one ever held Israel
accountable. Accountable even even today.

(46:39):
I mean, do you really want to tell me that Biden or Trump do
not know what Israel is committing on the ground?
No, you're so right. They.
Know everything or that they're Or do you want to really tell me
that they actually like everything Netanyahu's doing in
his government? Yeah.
I mean, I'm willing to bet that in a private if, if you know

(47:02):
behind closed doors, no one's listening, they will tell you
exactly what they think. But the problem is they never
try to stop that. This is the question.
They never act on it. They never act on it and you're.
Right, the lobbying, is it the Congress?
Is it lobbying? Is it the I don't know, is it
theology? We you know, that's what and,

(47:22):
and from my part, that's why I continue to speak and that's why
I continue to speak in in churches.
And part of it also is I want tosay to me, this is about the
credibility of our Christian witness.
If we allow this, accept this tohappen.
So when I speak, it's not just about my reality.

(47:44):
I'm trying to make lives better for our people or defending the
Palestinians. It's not just that, it's that
I'm trying to talk about, you know, it's, it's about the
credibility of our Christian witness.
I wish people, I wish people seethat.
So going back to your question, no, we haven't seen a big
difference between the two administration.
Having said that, definitely you'll find more sympathy among

(48:08):
Democratic Congress members thanyou will find among Republicans.
But none of that has translated yet into political positions.
Got it. OK.
That was very well said. You know that that Schofield
Bible, is that anything you are are well versed in?
I mean, that's a real thing, right?
That that really did have power in the 1900s.

(48:30):
Maybe maybe it doesn't have power anymore or maybe gosh, but
it's not advocated for anymore. But did it play a role in all
this? It did.
It definitely played a role. It's one of many factors.
It's not just the Scofield Bible.
It's one of many factors. And that's remember that, you
know, there was the teachings ofdispensationalism popularized by

(48:52):
the Scofield Bible. And then there is what you might
describe as self fulfilling prophecies with the creation of
the state of Israel. That many then pointed to the
Scofield Bible and said he that was, you know, what
dispensationalism said is correct.
So that gave momentum and then that gave this rise of obsession

(49:14):
with the end times conferences books.
And that was another important factor.
Books like the Left Behind series, the late Planet Earth,
the bloom of these Christian, ifyou wish book industry and then
film industry that popularized all of these views continued to
impact and promote that line of thinking that, you know, the

(49:36):
Scofield Bible played a role in the beginning of the 20th
century. Then later in the Sixties, 70s
and 80s that played an importantrole.
And then, you know, to be honest, the Trump the first
Trump presidency was another rise of that movement.
The the political right, how strong they were moving the
embassy to Jerusalem. What's really interesting is the

(49:58):
fact that many young evangelicals who their parents
grew up in that are not embracing this anymore.
If you look at all the surveys, it shows a big difference in the
ages. Younger evangelicals tend to
move away, are beginning to moveaway from that.
And I think it's also, and this is important, it's really

(50:19):
important to highlight that for many years it was a taboo to
even question that. Yeah, or you will be called an
anti semite, yes. So no one even dared to question
that. Yes.
And so this was kind of, you know, you don't question that

(50:39):
Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy.
You don't dare question that Godis not then with the Jews.
He still has plans for them, plans of, you know, restoration,
bringing them to the land, stateMessiah, all of that.
And, and let's remember, these are all Christian conversations.
We're not, you know, we're we'retelling Jews about their fate,
what will happen to them. But no one dared to question

(51:00):
those. And that's why to me, observing
what's been happening in the United States in the last few
months is fascinating. People are beginning to question
that, whether it's Tucker, Carson, Candace Owens and
others. You know, I'm just highlighting
that element that they are openly questioning.
These are important figures who are not concerned about losing

(51:23):
support or popularity or audience really questioning this
kind of theology and support. You know, even Tucker Carson had
an episode on dispensationism. I thought that was fascinating,
that. Yeah, Yeah.
I think these. Things are now being the.
Country music star, the country music star, John Rich, you know,
you're totally right. And, and, and let me just share
this and we don't have to talk about this, but I do want to

(51:46):
make this comment. You know, not only people like
Tucker Carlson and Candace Owens, but I will tell you this
entire Generation Z in America, you know, these young, these
young kids and, and a lot of them that were part of Charlie
Kirk's Turning Point USA organization, they were
questioning it and they are questioning it.

(52:06):
And there was a big uprising in Turning Point USA where that
young generation of Christian conservatives was not going
along with what their grandparents taught them in
terms of evangelical dispensationalism.
And there continues to be this uprising among that group.

(52:29):
And again, I don't want to get into the Charlie Perks stuff
unless you want to, but it's on it.
It's, it's, it's happening. People are people are, I don't
want to say they're changing their opinion, but they're
they're realizing, you know, like you said earlier, it's not
about what took place 4000 yearsago.
It's about what is happening now.

(52:50):
And and we don't like it. And many, many would say also,
how is this America First agenda?
You know, why don't we spend allthese billions of monies to
improve our economy, our life, right?
So these these conversations arehappening.
That's my point, yeah. And to me it's it's to be
honest, as Palestinians were thinking finally, you know, be

(53:10):
trying to push for that and the fact that these conversations
are finally happening. And at the same time, let's
let's be careful because I thinkjust last week Netanyahu brought
many influencers and said how dowe fight that?
Even Christian influencers now they're trying to fight that and
to and says so it shows again how much to Israel how much they

(53:33):
rely on this ideology or this narrative for their support so
that they continue with their policies.
So they are somehow they feel threatened by by all of this
because it shows again, the impact, the importance of
Christian support to Israel. And as I said, for us as

(53:53):
Palestinian and Palestinian Christians.
Yeah, I, I observe what's happening.
As I said, I have to by necessity to do this.
And I realize people are changing their views for
different reasons, but at least they're having this
conversations. And we're seeing finally people
are having this, this conversations.
And here is my hope. My hope is that those who

(54:14):
question these views or are beginning to requestion
everything or reconsider all of that, you know, it's not enough
to say something is wrong. We need to replace it with
something better. And I hope it's a vision for
peace. I hope it's it's the question
how, if we are really concerned about our Christian faith, are

(54:36):
we peacemakers? You know, here is something
Jesus said, blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be
children of God. This is a direct quote from
Jesus. You know, imagine if this is the
kind of imagine if this is the sentence Christians in the
United States repeat over and over.
We are children of God if we make peace, not if we bless

(55:00):
Israel. So we need to find ways to
replace that harmful, destructive misuse of Scripture
with a different ideology, one that believes that we can live
despite of our differences, one that believes that we need to
find political dynamics, ways that will help Palestinians and

(55:20):
Israelis live together. And do you know how difficult
this is for me as a Palestinian to say it now that we are still
going through a genocide and because everything that's
happening in the West Bank? But I cannot give up on the
belief that we have to find waysto live in the land.
Otherwise I would be calling forthe killing of 7 million Jews.
No, I won't say that. Yeah, Yeah.

(55:42):
That's a great. So we have to find ways, and I
wish, you know, I wish those Christians who keep quoting,
misquoting Scripture at least what Jesus Blessed are the
peacemakers, for they shall be children of God.
Imagine if we quoted that ratherthan that.
You have to bless that state. Wonderful quote.
You know what I'm going to, I'm going to add that to my list of

(56:04):
quotes when people ask me if I'mreligious because I love that
quote. I mean, to me, that falls in
line with the love thy neighbor treat.
People like you want to be treated like all those things.
You know, like when I watched over the holidays last year.
I'll probably do it again this year.
You know, I watched Mel Gibson'spast fashion of the Christ
movie, I think for the first time and and then I talked to a

(56:26):
lot of my Christian friends and I said, Hey, is this pretty
accurate? Like do you believe this?
And they all said, yes, that is very accurate.
We believe that is what he went through.
And then I said, well, you better appreciate what that guy
went through because that lookedhorrific what he went through.
And to me it's just when I thinkof Jesus Christ, I'm being

(56:47):
serious as a non religious person, I have so much respect
for him. I really do.
I think to myself, wow, this is this guy really is selfless.
And let's remember, he did this for the sake of love.
He did this purely out of love, according to our belief.
This is his sacrificial love to save us, to bring life to us.

(57:13):
So when you think of how much suffering he endured, the
sacrifice, this passion for the sake of life, for the sake of
saving lives, and then unfortunately I have to say
this, compare it with the ideology of war and description,
destruction that exists amongst many Christians.
Some Christians, you can't tell but wonder are they reading the

(57:35):
same Jesus, the Jesus who said Iam willing to die for my enemy.
I am willing to even give my life for the sake of my enemy,
not just give it as in OK, I should you, you saw it.
You saw the passion of Christ. This is this is this is the
essence of Christianity. God so loved the world that he

(57:57):
gave his only begotten Son on the cross.
And that's really the the kind of thing that drives me, the
love of God to everyone. Yes.
Yes, and the unconditional love of God to humanity and His
desire that all are to be saved.I think that was America in the
70s, eighties, you know, maybe even a little part of the 90s.

(58:21):
But you know, I think that that whether it's Christian Zionism
or Jewish Zionism or overall Zionism, something took over
because, you know, I had anotherpastor on.
I don't know if you're, if you know, Pastor Matt first, but he
said something really insightfuland he said, you know, America
is not a Christian nation anymore.

(58:42):
We're a Christian Zionist nation.
What are your your thoughts on that?
I'd love to get your take on just this.
Christian fascinating. I think it's it's a serious
conversations that we must we must have and I'm being I'm
being very clear if you what I think of Zionism.
Zionism is a exclusive racist ideology that promotes the

(59:06):
concept of a tribal God. Yeah, tribal God.
Narrow God even I really you know and so so you have to think
you know Christian Zionism is Christian support to Zionism.
Zionism is the belief of the creation of a Jewish state in
Palestine. Palestine is not empty.

(59:27):
So you want to create a state for the Jews, not for everyone,
not a you know as they keep saying, you know, as if the only
democracy in the Middle East ignoring all the reports on the
discrimination against non Jews in Israel or towards the
Palestinians and the territories, the creation of a
Jewish state in Palestine, not an empty land.

(59:50):
So what the question then? What do you do to the people who
live in the land? That's why Zionism have always
believed in the necessity of transfer ethnic cleansing.
This is not my words. Transfer is the word the Zionist
original Zaranes Theater used. They spoke, you know, when when
they debate even ethnic cleansing today, they don't deny

(01:00:11):
it. They just say we had to do it.
We had to empty. So it's not as if Palestinians
fled because of the war. No more than half of the
Palestinians were forced outsideof Palestine to create this
Jewish state. And then because it's a Jewish
state, by definition exclusive. And finally, you will see this
now in the nation state law. You know, there is something

(01:00:32):
called the nation state law. You have to go and read it.
It's a one page or two page document passed by the Israeli
parliament technician that says verbatim, right?
This is exactly what it says. The right for self determination
is exclusive to the Jewish people only then it says in
another document that is a current Israeli coalition

(01:00:53):
believes to be part of the government, the land of Israel,
all of it, not just, you know, 1948 or 67 or all of the land
belongs exclusively to the Jewish people.
That's sign ISM. Yes, yes.
It's not inclusive. It believes in exclusivity and
even supremacy. That the Jews have more rights

(01:01:14):
than others in this land. Now they bring religious
language to justify it, which isa problem to me.
You know, brings us back to Genesis 12.
You know, Genesis 12, if you understand, you know, really the
the notion of chosenness, it's not about being blessed by
others. It's about blessing others.
You bless others, yet somehow wewon't get amount ourselves.

(01:01:37):
We use religion to give ourselves exclusive or superior
rights or and so on. That's Zionism.
And so to implement that, they had to create political system
of injustice, whether it's a military occupation or, you
know, you've got numerous reports, rain, numerous reports,

(01:01:57):
not one or two or four or five. Yeah.
Including reports by Israeli human rights organizations that
long before the war said about spoke on apartheid, the sin of
apartheid committed in in in Palestine and Israel, you know,
discrimination system. Bit Salem, the Israeli human
rights organization, described it as a system of Jewish

(01:02:17):
supremacy from the river to the sea.
That's how Bit Salem described it.
This is what Zionism did. And then if you look at what is
happening right now and if you listen to what the leaders are
saying, the Israeli government officials, they're talking
about, we have to take advantageof this and push all

(01:02:38):
Palestinians and Gaza out. We have to find ways.
They've been trying to find any way to push Palestinians outside
of Gaza. They really, you know what,
trying to ethnically cleanse Gaza.
And we hope they they were not successful.
This is Zionism and we have to ask ourselves here now I talk
about me as a as a Christian. Can we put the word Christian

(01:03:00):
before all of the above? Can we put the word Christian
before ethnic cleansing, supremacy, discrimination,
genocide, apartheid? Of course we cannot.
And by the way, do you know who agrees with us?
Many Jewish activists, rabbis, theologians.
Go and listen. Go and read the manifesto or the

(01:03:23):
declaration of the group Jewish Voice for Peace regarding
Zionism when they say Judaism stands for Jewish Voice for
Peace, stands for quality justice and and so on.
And then Zionism is the antithesis of that.
That's why we cannot accept it. I mean, you can read that the
declaration or the position fromZionism.

(01:03:43):
I agree with that. The problem is Zionism.
Yes, yes, no. There's a lot of incredible
Jewish voices. Like I had Miko Pellet on.
I don't know if you know him of.Course.
It was wonderful, such an enlightening conversation.
I'm going to have Norman Finkelstein on next month.
I think he's wonderful. You know, Professor Jeffrey

(01:04:04):
Sachs here in America, he's Jewish.
He's said so many good things. Elon, Poppy, gosh, so many of
those, you know, new historians that are all Jewish and quite,
they're all incredible, including the organizations like
Bitsellum, you know, Yeah, it really it again, I think it

(01:04:26):
comes it comes down to that weaponization of religion for
politics. And if we can just amplify the
voices of people like yourself that quite frankly, to me, you
are a religion at its finest. And even if I'm not a Christian,
I have so much respect for you and your views of Christianity

(01:04:51):
and your faith. I really do.
I respect you and your relationship with your faith so
much because I can tell it's it's completely authentic.
And just because I'm not, I don't believe exactly what you
believe. I still know you absolutely love
me and want the best for me. That might sound corny, but I

(01:05:11):
really think that's true. Thank you.
As I said, if we cannot love our, you know, just accept that
the the key teaching of Jesus islove your neighbor as yourself
one of the key teachings of Jesus.
You know, still like to, you know, hope you can find faith
one day and and. I appreciate that.

(01:05:33):
I appreciate that. And I, I have a lot of people
that say that. They say, Ray, we love the fact
that you're so open to learning everything and hopefully one day
you'll find, you'll find faith in Jesus Christ.
And I absolutely love that. OK, listen, I could talk to you
for hours. Thank you.
Thank you. But whether you do or not, that
doesn't mean you know we can't be friends.

(01:05:56):
Absolutely. That's the ascent of things and
not just friends. That doesn't mean that we can't
have conversations, absolutely. That doesn't mean we can do
things together. That doesn't mean we can partner
to make our neighborhoods, our world a better place, a better
place together. Absolutely.
Yeah. It was a joy to have this
conversation it. Really was let me ask you one

(01:06:18):
final question. So where do you, where do you
think this is headed? You know, obviously, supposedly
there's a ceasefire. Finally, you know what do you
think is next? So it's two years, so much, so
many innocent lives were lost. It's very tragic.
I'm still haven't, you know, I'mhonestly, honestly, Ray, I can't

(01:06:39):
think beyond. Will this thing stop?
For goodness sake? We saw the deal.
We heard both sides accepted it,but nothing has happened on the
ground. You know, people are still being
killed as we speak this morning.People were killed.
So I hope this war stops. I haven't said anything or
written anything or made anything about the current Trump

(01:07:02):
plan because honestly, this is not the time to debate anything
other than can we stop this war?Can we stop the killing?
Can we stop the bombing? Can we stop the starvation?
And as a as a man of faith, I can't help but think that needs
to be accountability, that needsto be retribution, that needs to
be reparations. We can't just like pretend

(01:07:25):
nothing happened and then go ahead and Yella, let's be
rebuild us and that's it. I can't accept that.
And so I am a bit concerned and I looked at the plan.
There are good things that hope will happen.
There are things that are not clear.
There are steps and we've been through this before.
Us Palestinians, the Oslo agreements were subpoenaed, that
the Oslo agreements were supposed to last until 1999, you

(01:07:48):
know, the Palestinian Authority.And now look where we are right
now. I can't really have faith in the
current politicians in our world, especially in Israel,
that they are genuinely concerned or desire peace.
Having said seen what they've done to us Palestinians, humanly
speaking, I don't see anything good happening in the coming
years. We're bracing for the worst.

(01:08:09):
Yeah, We still live in constant fear that whatever happened in
Raza could happen to us in the West Bank.
That's the kind of fear we will live with for the rest of our
lives as Palestinians. Right now life is held in the
West Bank with the checkpoints, with the delays, with waiting on
checkpoints every day for hours incursions.

(01:08:31):
And so. So I wish I could tell you
things look positive. I wish I could tell you I have
hope. Hope has become unfortunately, a
bad word in our dictionary today, a word weaponized even
against us because, you know, wewant to hope.
We really, we are people of faith, but everything around us
cries the opposite. So doesn't look good, to be

(01:08:52):
honest. The only thing I can say is
rather than asking this questionto me, the question now, what
can we do? How do we make things better?
What message should we send? What is our role in all of this?
And definitely, I will continue to pray.
People know me from my activism,from my talks, from my
interviews, from my visits to politicians and so on.

(01:09:13):
But first and foremost, we are people of faith who pray and
still believe in God that thingswill will be different.
So yeah, maybe you asked this question hoping that I give you
a nuanced political I answer about reality.
But I have to be real and simplycommit myself and my people and
my communities to working hardertowards making a difference.

(01:09:35):
And before anything, pray this war stops.
Enough is enough. Yeah, you know what?
That was the absolute best answer and the most authentic
answer that you could have given.
And I agree with you 100%. I mean, I will pray for the
best, but unfortunately expect the worst because that's just

(01:09:56):
the track record of everything. So listen, I really appreciate
your time. I I, I so enjoy talking to you.
Like I said, I could literally go on for two to three more
hours, but I would just ask if, if, if you don't mind, I'd, I'd
love to have you back on whenever the time is right.
And I will continue to post everything you put out there and

(01:10:18):
just know, you know, I mean, I'ma fan for sure, but I'm such a
supporter of what you're doing because it comes from that's an
authentic place. Thank you.
Thank you. And let's see first how your
audience responds to this, and then to decide whether you want
me back or not. Listen, if my audience doesn't
respond positively, positively, then they do not need to be my

(01:10:42):
audience. So anyway, all right, everybody,
I hope you enjoyed this. The good reverend.
I really appreciate it. All right, hang on the line,
Reverend. Call a spade a spade, everybody.
Call your parents. Pray for the best for everyone
in Palestine. And let's more than anything,
hope this war comes to an end. All right, we'll talk to you

(01:11:03):
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EP#387 | GUEST | Reverand Munther Isaac: The Palestinian Pastor Shaking Up American Christianity

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}EP#387 | GUEST | Reverand Munther Isaac: The Palestinian Pastor Shaking Up American Christianity