From Classics to Bonanza: Exploring the Donkey Kong Legacy

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to Richard and Carl Presents Deep
Space and Dragons.
I contemplating, doing a bitwhere I said I was Carl this
week but we would mess it up.
So I'm Richard.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
And I am Carl, carl Good old Walking Dead reference
right there.
I don't even like the WalkingDead, but you know.

Speaker 1 (00:21):
I could have liked the Walking Dead, but it kept
going and never ended, which I'mtold is the point.
But no matter how elaboratemetaphor you're being, that was
still bad.
Like when someone tells me thepoint of the media was it was
supposed to be bad.
I'd be like congratulations,you made something bad that
doesn't retroactively make itgood.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
No, it does not.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
So happy Canada Day.
What's new with you?

Speaker 2 (00:54):
Well, I guess, first things first, my obligatory mini
movie review.

Speaker 1 (01:02):
Stopwatch has started .
I'm going to drain this, sinceit didn't sponsor us.
Just generic orange-flavoredsoda WotC mini review.
Alright, stopwatch has started.
I'm going to drain this, sinceit didn't sponsor us.
Just generic orange flavoredsoda WotC mini review Dance
class Well.

Speaker 2 (01:14):
How to Turn your Dragon.
The live action version.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
Okay, I'm actually deeply invested in how that
turned out, because the originaloh, such a good movie.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
Oh, so good.
The original is a really goodmovie.
Uh, the remake uh is actuallydone by the same director and I
almost feel like it's the moviehe wanted to make the first time
around.
Um, well, almost like uh, oh.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
Toothless end up?
Did Hiccup end up surrenderingToothless to Child Protective
Services at the end?

Speaker 2 (01:51):
No, no, no, it's almost a shot for shot remake.
They managed to add about 20minutes of content, but that 20
minutes of content was basicallygiving every single character
that has a line of dialogue anda few that don't uh more depth.
So it's like every everycharacter is more well-written.

(02:13):
Um, the pacing is about thesame.
I don't know.
I kind of feel like maybe thepacing is a little bit better in
the original, but, um, all inall uh, you can tell that the
original director uh is stillvery passionate about the
project uh, and I think he'shoping to go forward uh into uh

(02:36):
making the sequels uh, becausethey did a lot more focus on uh
hiccup's mom and how she waslike killed by dragons, probably
worse, and I've never seen.
And I've never seen the second.
I've never seen the second one,but apparently Hiccup's mom
shows up as a dragon rider inthe second one, so that could be
like a little bit of a teaserfor them.
Redoing the sequel.
Okay.
So, all in all, I thinkobjectively, the remake was

(03:03):
probably actually a better moviebecause, like I say, it's the
same movie but every singlecharacter has more depth it's
kind of funny, like my instinctwas to preemptively hate this.
But it's not Disney my onlything is and this has been a
problem with all the remakeslike the remake leaned in more

(03:24):
to the gritty realism of beinglive action, which is that's the
strength of being live actionover being animated.
But that does also mean thatit's less fun.
It is a really good movie and Ithink it's really going to hit
its target audience.

(03:44):
And Toothless and all the otherdragons are the character
models are spot on, uh, and it'sstill going to resonate with
with little children.
But there's way fewer quips andjokes.
It's less colorful, um, andthen, besides that, it's.
It's basically the same movie,so it's.
It was a solid movie in thefirst place.
Basically the same movie, so itwas a solid movie in the first

(04:05):
place.
It's made by people who werepassionate about the original
movie and they did a good jobadapting it to live action
Probably one of the best liveaction adaptations I've seen.
But still, maybe it's nostalgia, but I prefer the original
because it's a little more fun.

Speaker 1 (04:22):
What's kind of funny is like the classic who Is this
For debate?
Where it's like more fun.
What's kind of funny is likethe classic who is this for
debate?
Where it's like if this moviecame out and the original didn't
exist, it'd probably be myfavorite movie of all time.
Still, right, like the conceptof Viking finds and befriends
dragons.
It hits a spiritual speed spotfor me, right, and it's like

(04:44):
it's just my own mortalitybecause it's been long enough
that, yeah, making a new onebecause the old one is aging.
I think if I didn't havenostalgia vision, it's not like
the original was made in 4k,right, like the idea of like, oh
, we're just going to redo itand update it for the new
generation is fair game.
But I think I've given thisspeech on this podcast before

(05:08):
and it's kind of not really ahot take, more like the center
of a hot pocket where it mightbe cold, it might be hot, who
knows, don't know, until youbite into it.
Take right, right is that Ithink the worse the original was
, the better it is to adapt.

Speaker 2 (05:22):
So it's like the live action full metal alchemist
failed right, but that's becausethe the source material was 10
out of 10.
No notes like right.
How can you actually improve on?

Speaker 1 (05:36):
right and live action avatar failed.
You know what was actually sucha good liveaction remake that
no one even noticed it was alive-action remake the first
Transformers movie, because G1Transformers was bad, yeah.
So when they're like, rewrote90% of it and Transformers

(05:59):
stands, try to be like the OSJis stupid.
It'd be like the Oster's stupid.
It's like watch Transformers,the animated movie from the 80s,
and watch the first Michael Baymovie.
I'm sorry, but the Michael Bayone is in fact a better movie.
Is it a good movie?
Hard to say.
But like there is a lot.

(06:19):
They had a lot more freedom todo whatever they wanted.
Like oh, we're going to putsome Marines in the desert
fighting a robot scorpion.
And it's like, yeah, theoriginal had a scene where a
conservation mask doesn't existand the main villain turned into
a gun to be held by thesidekick to be shot, while they
fired energy beams to turngasoline into fuel cubes.
Like yeah, you could just throwa lot of that out and be fine.

(06:42):
And it's like it's a weirdthing where it's like to throw
compliment and shade at Batman,kind of.
Is that the Dark Knight was?
Like, yeah, I'm just gonnaadapt random chunks of Batman
All of them do that.
But Batman's comics as ageneral rule aren't that good

(07:05):
and it's like when you adapt tothe good ones you're going to
have some problems, because ifthey tried to do Batman Year One
, which they really did withRobert Pattinson's newish Batman
movie- it was less good thanBatman.

Speaker 3 (07:17):
Year One, the animated one Batman Year One was
so good.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
And I'm like, yeah, because he tried to adapt
something good and then decidedto make the Riddler a VTuber.
Like what are you doing?
The Riddler wasn't evensupposed to.
Like, just do the gangsters.
You don't need a supervillainin a Batman movie.
If you're doing Batman year one, I agree.

(07:42):
So how to Train His Dragon isweird because that movie has no
reason to exist.
But it's also good.
Now, if you adapt something thatwas bad the first time, you
kind of give it a reason foryour adaptation to it.
One Piece is my favoriteexample.
The One Piece adaptation isgood.
One Piece's first two seasonswere not good.
Come at me, the entire world,they weren't.

(08:05):
If you sit down and watch thefirst 50 episodes of one piece
which is 12 episodes of netflixand tell me it's good, you can
tell me there's good moments.
I believe you if you tell methe sanji leg thing is a good
moment.
There's also 40 minutes ofusopp yelling into town at
bell-peppered hair kid that thebutler is evil, while PVNG slide

(08:28):
across the screen.
Don't tell me it's good.
I was there.

Speaker 2 (08:37):
So that's my video.
The other thing that's new withme I actually I have have.
Hopefully this won't take toolong to go through my story here
, but see Before you tell me thestory.

Speaker 1 (08:51):
I'm going to ask an honest question and you have to
answer me honestly, or else youget a stress point.
Okay, Is the topic you're aboutto dive into worthy of being an
entire episode, because it'ssuch an unhinged story?

Speaker 2 (09:08):
no, no, I mean it is unhinged, but it's not worthy of
being an entire episode, unlessyou want to talk about vampires
kind of.

Speaker 1 (09:15):
But all right, I'll put a pin in that we'll see
where this goes, because ouroriginal topic could get thrown
out, depending where you go withthis.
No, no no See.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
Last year in the wintertime I came across some
vampires that were migratingnorth for the winter.
I, like you do, I mean you knowwhy would you not want to spend
the winter in the Arctic as avampire, where it's night, all
like, for like six months of theyear?
That sounds perfect.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
That would be wild.
So we have a pact about justyes, anding each other, but our
podcast hasn't had that ineffect up until this moment.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
But please continue I do battle with, with these
vampires, uh and uh, I fend themoff, uh, but apparently,
apparently, one of them cursedmy spleen and so I got a
condition called ITP.

Speaker 1 (10:08):
That was the best segue of all time and I'm sorry
I interrupted it.
Please continue.

Speaker 2 (10:15):
I don't know what ITP stands for, but the gist of it
is that my spleen is magicallytransporting my platelets to
this vampire so they can recoverfrom our battle.
It's such a oh man.

Speaker 1 (10:32):
You know I'll go into the what's new with me after
this, but I'm just going to makesome mental notes as you
continue.

Speaker 2 (10:43):
But anyways, apparently this vampire magic
was quite strong because themedicine I'm on, prednisone it
wasn't working effectivelyenough and they actually had to
give me a shot of some strongermedicine.
And then I was back on theprednisone and then they're like
that's still not workingeffectively enough.
So they gave me a differentmedicine and now they think the
second medicine, michaelFenolate not to be confused with

(11:05):
michael phelps I thought it hewas not my medicine.

Speaker 1 (11:08):
That is immediately what I thought.
I just want you to know thiswell, I actually.

Speaker 2 (11:13):
I went to, uh, the the pharmacist and I was asking
him about getting refills forthe michael phenolate, uh, and
he also thought I said michael,but he wasn't sure what the last
name was, um, and I was like no, that that's my medication, my
colphenolate, my colphenolate,anyway, but the prednisone, I

(11:34):
was initially taking 75milligrams, which is one and a
half pills once a day, so Iliterally had to take a knife
and cut one of the pills in halfevery day.

Speaker 1 (11:45):
Why.

Speaker 2 (11:49):
But so now, since the prednisone, or since the
Michael Fennellite is doing hisjob, they're weaning me off the
prednisone, because if you takeprednisone for too long it'll
damage your magic circuits andthat's not good.

Speaker 1 (12:04):
The weird compartmentalization going on
here is beautiful.

Speaker 2 (12:11):
But the prednisone tastes awful.
I thought it was because I hadto cut it in half.
But instead of taking one and ahalf pills once a day, I'm
currently taking ten pills oncea day, because there are only
five milligram pills, which isgood.
Good, because that means Idon't have to try and cut this
50mg pill into 10 pieces.

(12:31):
That would be ridiculous,especially since a cut will kill
you.
Apparently I'm still low, butnot dangerously low.

Speaker 1 (12:41):
I'm just going to say for the cause of death to be,
you need to cut youranti-blood-sending medication in
half and you cut yourselfduring that process to die.

Speaker 2 (12:54):
Just saying that would be very ironic.
But I've discovered that it'snot because I was cutting in
half that it tasted awful.
These just like prednisone.
I do not recommend tastingprednisone but because I have to
take 10 little tiny pills, it'sso hard to get it like if I
take a bunch of them.
It's so hard to get themswollen without letting them

(13:16):
touch the rest of my mouth,because it doesn't matter if
they touch my tongue or the roofof my mouth or like the side of
my mouth.
It's like suddenly my wholemouth's just like.

Speaker 1 (13:24):
So one of the advices I got for this exact situation
is you actually need to do tolike protect yourself from
tasting terrible medicine iswhat you want to do is eat a pb
and j sandwich first, so it likecoats your mouth a bit, so then
the pill doesn't actuallycontact you directly because the
oils are there Chili oil alsoworks.

Speaker 2 (13:45):
Yeah, okay, okay, but I digress.
Anyways, I just I thought itwas weird that it's like they're
tapering down on my dosage butI have to take more pills at a
time.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
Interesting.
I don't know the science onthat one.

Speaker 2 (14:04):
Well, I mean, like I say, this week I have to take 10
pills a day.
Next week it's 8, then 6, then4, then 2, then 1, and then I'm
done with the prednisone,because I guess the vampire is
weak to Michael Fennell.

Speaker 1 (14:20):
8, so Michael Phelps, vampire hunter.
Oh fuck, but yeah, michaelFennell 8,.
So Michael Phelps, vampireHunter.

Speaker 2 (14:27):
On Fox.
But yeah, that's mini moviereview and little health update
for well, mostly for you there,richard.
I mean, I hope that ourlisteners enjoy my anecdotes but
I don't really know theknowledge I have.

Speaker 1 (14:42):
The market data, yes, like as we do a two-hour
episode on dagger heart and thenumber one comment is I enjoyed
the pizzeria anecdote says a lotabout our show.
It was like I saw a book reviewearlier today.
That's like the first thing tosay about the book is it's
beautifully bound.
I'm like, oh, this review isnot going gonna be good.

Speaker 2 (15:05):
So what's new with you there, richard?

Speaker 1 (15:10):
So at the start of the month I went to a lot of
author things, events and stuffand now I'm like I don't feel
like doing that.
I'm on summer vacation so aspart of like researching to work
on TTRPG content, I've beenlike sampling a bunch of JRPGs.
So I've been sampling a bunch ofJRPGs.
So I've been going through allthe Final Fantasy games.
So Final Fantasy 1 is just aD&D campaign, down to the

(15:31):
classes and the spell slotsystem, yeah, okay, and I just
finished number one.
And then I played a lot of thestart of a bunch of PS2 JRPGs,
like Final Fantasy X, xeno Saga,final Fantasy Tactics, a couple
of the Star Oceans.
So I've just been playingenough of these games to sample

(15:52):
the mechanics a bit, to get afeel for them and click the
nostalgia vein.
But I am planning to go throughall the Final Fantasies in
order, starting at number one.
Right right.
But I did make it to the finalboss, realized I didn't have
enough items, exited the lastdungeon, went back, got
Excalibur because I forgot tograb that Stockpile up.
So I've almost beat number one.
I just have to go back down andkill him.

(16:13):
I don't know if I actually haveto follow through to bother
doing that or if I'm just goingto be like yeah, I think I've
completed this game enough.

Speaker 2 (16:26):
I'll keep that in mind.
Yeah, I don't know.
Final Fantasy 1 is definitelylike that's the Final Fantasy.
They honestly thought that itwas going to be the last game
they would make.

Speaker 1 (16:42):
It is funny that it literally has Tiamat the Kraken,
Like.
I'm looking at these monstersbeing like.
These are all in the firstedition player's hand Monster
manual.
You're not even trying tonominate, Just a straight up D&D
game.
The classes are literally theD&D classes plus Red Mage.

Speaker 2 (16:56):
Right, but yeah, so I played through the original
Nintendo version of FinalFantasy.

Speaker 1 (17:08):
That one was the original Nintendo version was
very difficult.
Yeah, I'm playing through themon the Pixel Remastered
Collection, which is basicallycheating.
So here's what they added tothat game A run button Okay.
The ability to switch yourcharacters on the overworld map
Okay, fixing all the glitches onthe overworld map.

Speaker 2 (17:25):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (17:25):
Fixing all the glitches.
So your intelligence statactually ups your magic damage,
okay, and there's an option toturn random encounters off and
increase your experience in goldyou get four times.
So the idea is that I don'thave random encounters, but they
put all the fixed encounters asso.
Whenever the game would haveforced you into a random

(17:47):
encounter, because there's abunch of spots where it makes
you do one, they put thoseencounters on treasure chests or
as overworld monsters thatphysically block doorways.
So it's like.
I have no random encounters onbecause I'm playing through
every Final Fantasy game, so I'mgetting more golden experience
and it's kept me on curve whereall the boss fights have been

(18:08):
felt appropriately challenging.
Ie, I lost the final boss andhave to go get some more stuff.
But I just click a button toturn the random encounters on
and off.
If I want to grind, I justclick a button.
And is it cheating?
Yes, but also they remixed themusic to be orchestral, so it's
not chiptune, it's like actualmusic, and they formatted it to

(18:31):
fit the width of my screen.
So it's been a very pleasantexperience.
But you were about to saysomething there.

Speaker 2 (18:39):
That was just like.
Obviously, the original wasincredibly innovative for its
day, um, and very successful, uh.
But you are right that they dojust get better right.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
well, it's kind of funny because it's like the
quality of life improvementshelped a lot, because there's
not a ton of story in that one,and if I had to grind and fight
every random encounter betweeneach location like, it would
definitely get tedious.
And it's a particularly meanone too, where it'll be like
yeah, 12 enemies spawned in andyou can't run.
So it's like there's momentswhere, like even with like

(19:15):
playing on super mode, I stillget my ass kicked.
Also, it uses spell slots,which I found really funny, like
unreasonably funny yeah.
It's been a long time since Iplayed that one, so I don't
don't actually didn't actuallyremember that, but that is funny
and to kind of like the tangentthat was gonna wrap into the
carl dying story.
So I'm doing ghost writingthings right.

(19:37):
I can't go into too manydetails, but part of what I'm
doing involves listening totranscripts and then trying to
construct the story out of them.
Doing additional research, myfirst thought when he started
telling me the story is oh man,if I had the Carl version of all
these events, the novel I couldwrite out of being like because
it's like you did this weird,surreal, pan-elaborate thing of

(19:59):
just straight up fiction as away of denial for your medical
Like.
I'm like that's a fascinatingway to tell any story.
Like that's like such an arthouse ass movie.
To be like I get attacked by avampire is how your brain
processes bad medical news.
But like actually showing thevampire attacking you, like oh,

(20:20):
that is some Toronto filmfestival bullshit right there
and I kind of live for it.
But it's funny like my brain'sjust like loaded with medical
information right now and I'mlike building up my tolerance.

Speaker 2 (20:38):
I did spend all afternoon crafting that story to
make it a more interestingstory because Beautiful, new,
and crafting that story to makeit a more interesting story
because beautiful, you know.

Speaker 1 (20:46):
Going from one and a half pills to 10 pills, it's
like, yeah, that's not thatinteresting of a story, but add
vampires and suddenly yeah, I'vemostly been like so due to the
power of procrastination, I havetwo projects I'm working on
campaign crap slash, writingdown dagger heart adventures
slash like dagger heart homeworkcontent and writing an actual
ghostwriting job.
And then I guess my third jobwas this research project.

(21:08):
My brain is always wanting towork on the thing I'm not
currently doing, so like I'll belike up to three in the morning
working on a D&D adventure thatI've never had to like follow
through to do while Daggerheartadventure because I know I
should be working on my actualjob.
And then, when I'm working onmy actual job, I'm like when I'm
like I need to finish thiscampaign prep, so then I'll work

(21:29):
on my actual job for 600interrupted hours.
It's just a funny thing whereit's like my brain is always
thinking about the other thing Ishould be working on and it's
keeping me productive that ispretty funny so, like other than
the fact that I gave myself afour-day weekend, which is
really funny when you're workingon flexible time to be like oh
yeah, I'll just load up the restof my week with intense work to

(21:51):
take these candidate A off forno particular reason.

Speaker 2 (21:56):
Actually speaking of unfinished projects.

Speaker 1 (22:02):
My new strategy class I'm making for Daggerheart.

Speaker 2 (22:10):
No, no projects um my new class I'm making for dagger
heart.
No, no, um my my grandma uhactually turned to 95, 95
recently, um within this lastweek actually, and she didn't
have netflix as a kid she wasborn in in 1930, so you know she
didn't have much as a kid.

Speaker 1 (22:26):
I mean it'll probably be a future episode topic, like
when I had a friend of mine askme what shows I should watch to
know more about worldbuildingand it's like what's Fullmetal
Alchemist?
And I'm like, oh no.
Anyways, their first video gamethey played was Dark Souls 3.
That's strange.

(22:48):
Think about the timeline for asecond and you'll realize it
would have been like 1015.
This is an adult.
This is like a 24 year oldadult, and one of their first
video games was Dark Souls.
That's rough, that hurt.

Speaker 2 (23:04):
I'm still recovering, it's fine anyways, um went and
visited my grandma on her on her95th birthday.
Uh and uh, she has a copy.
No, she has a copy of phase 10dice, which is a game that you
can't play anymore.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
I mean, I think I know how to make that, but mixed
quality results.
I'm not the best vendor ofboard game stuff.

Speaker 2 (23:34):
No, I mean we might, but that was the unfinished
project because we weredefinitely going to order up the
dice and just make my own setand then not sell it for profit
because that's copyright,whatever.

Speaker 1 (23:47):
I'm not even sure it is.

Speaker 2 (23:51):
Anyway.
So we played Phase 10 Dice, andafter I finished all my phases
and everyone else was stillgoing through theirs, it was
just dumb luck for me, but Imanaged to win by one point in
the end, which was awesome forme.
But after we went through allthe phases then I was thinking

(24:15):
about it.
I was like man, like you know,7, 8, 9, 10 are all on the same
die.
So if you're going for 10s and9s, you're like number of
possible dice.
There aren't even six possibledice that can get you three 10s
and three 9s, so you'll have touse a wild.
And then I was like, oh man,like you can't just like sit

(24:38):
there in the middle of the gameand inspect the dice and decide
which is the best statisticalprobability of getting the
highest score.
If you should go for, like,sixes and tens trying to get the
highest score, or like, andeach phase would have its own
like probability of ideal hand,but like surprisingly complex I

(24:58):
mean as someone who's beenlooking at like average damage
outputs versus damage thresholdsto balance things.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
I feel you I really do Like, if I was a billionaire,
I'd make you go through gamestudies courses so you could
come back and help me work onthings Just send you to school
against your will.
I'm like here, I've enrolledyou in school.
For what this?
Specifically because I need aneditor and a game designer.
You're like do I get a choice?

(25:25):
I'm like no, you do not.

Speaker 2 (25:32):
Well, yeah, I just uh .
Firstly I thought it wasinteresting that she actually
had a an official Phase 10 dicegame and then, secondly, it was
like actually playing it.
I was like, huh, it's notcomplicated, but it is complex.

Speaker 1 (25:46):
Fair, I'm going to be weirdly bitchy about a YouTube
review I saw earlier today.
Oh, so one of these D&DYouTubers I follow, who will
remain nameless for this, giveshis Daggerheart review right and
he was complaining.
It's like yeah, daggerheartdoesn't is not simple as in D&D.
It takes as long per fight.
I'm like, what game were youplaying?

(26:08):
And I'm like, how is thatpossible?
And sometimes it's just like alot of times people will go into
a new product and they'll saythey're giving it a fair shot,
but they're like, while playingit, actively looking for things
wrong with it.
But I'm just like, every oncein a while I play a game.
I'm like like ever want someoneto play a game and be like I
don't like this game.
And you wonder if they actuallyeven knew how to play it in the

(26:29):
first place.
Because, like I can't fathomhow it would take you longer a
turn than the game was.
Action, bonus, action, reaction.
And I find like some of myfriends are just like unwilling
to try new games and will justcome up with reasons why they
don't like them when the actualreason is sunk, cost fallacy and
the things they already likeRight, like Magic's such a prime
example.
Like someone would be like uh,I don't.
It's like oh, this new cardgame's just the odd.

(26:51):
It's like oh, it's just so muchmore random than Magic.
Like Magic has land, yeah.
So it's so interesting to mehow people like skew data, just
so that way they don't have tolearn things.
That tangent had nothing to dowith anything, but I was just so

(27:13):
salty being like there's lotsof reasons to not like this game
.
How are you playing it slower?

Speaker 2 (27:19):
you know what else?
There's lots of reasons not tolike Donkey Kong 64.

Speaker 1 (27:25):
So for a bit of context, why this is a fun topic
.
Ec Myers, one of like mystreamers, slash mentors I
actively watch and enjoy, isdoing his summer of Nintendo 64.
His last one, spring into Sega.
Spring into Sega wasobjectively the fun name, the
one before that was we into whenit was like winter of we or
something, okay, and he'splaying Donkey Kong 64.
Objectively the fun name, theone before that was we into what
was like winter of we orsomething, ok, and he's playing

(27:47):
Donkey Kong 64.
And I'm going to give hisremarks before I give mine in
your remarks.
Ok, his remarks.
If you had just got a Nintendo64 and it's summer and this is
the only game you have, it is agreat game.
The dialogue is whimsical, thegraphics are fun, the atmosphere
is good.
As a person with deadlines anda job, I do not have time to

(28:09):
beat this game Because it isunreasonably slow and you see
where the ideas were good, butit just doesn't feel fun to play
, even if it is one of thefounding fathers of the
collect-a-thon genre.
So that's a third-party reviewof this game.
How are you feeling about?

Speaker 2 (28:27):
it Right, right.
Well, see, a lot of people havenostalgia for the 64.
I've never really liked the 64.

Speaker 1 (28:37):
This guy- was the worst one.
I had nostalgia for it, butobjectively it was what I'm
trying to think of.
Like the video format it'd beequivalent to like the HD DVD of
consoles, or like the idea ofhaving one of those gear

(28:57):
shifters that has the pedal, butit's an automatic but you have
to push your foot on the pedallike it was a rough place.

Speaker 2 (29:08):
I mean, nobody had really figured out 3D gaming at
that point, nintendo least ofall with their interesting
controller design.

Speaker 1 (29:20):
But I have a hot take about that.
So I actually think that gamecontrollers around the.
But uh, I have a hot take aboutthat.
Donkey Kong Pause first.
So I actually think that gamecontrollers around the 360, we
hit the 360 controller.
It's the new standardcontroller, right?
That's also the Nintendo Procontroller.
That's the DualShock 2controller, right?
I think, with the weird shapeof the buttons where the A

(29:44):
button's a thumb rest and youroll to B, x and Y easily from a
central point, that theGameCube is actually the better
engineered controller, but didnot catch on as much.

Speaker 2 (29:54):
Well, that's because they just made it so small.

Speaker 1 (29:57):
Because I'm just thinking like the blank space
between the button layout that'sstandard now, where the
GameCube literally like lined upits buttons so it wasn't the
blank space on it and you couldjust roll your thumb to the
other three buttons, is actuallya better design.
Yeah, it just needs to bebigger for grown-up hands.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
But so I never actually played Donkey Kong 64
in period.
But going back and trying toplay any of those early 3D games
, they are so clunky and slowand I've always hated the 3D

(30:47):
graphics from that generationbecause everyone was just
starting out and everyonethought it was so awesome then.
But they just don't age.
Well If they made a Donkey Kong64 remastered, which I don't
think they ever have, Nope,nintendo doesn't remaster things
from the 64 era.

Speaker 1 (31:01):
It's like they didn't save the source code.

Speaker 2 (31:05):
They've remastered Ocarina of Time like 15 versions
.

Speaker 1 (31:09):
Here's some fun thing about Ocarina of Time and its
remasters.
The GameCube release of Ocarinaof Time was not upscaled or
enhanced, it just was packagedon disk.
Ocarina of Time on the Wii wasa direct port.
Ocarina of Time never made itinto the Time on the Wii was a
direct port, okay.
Orchery of Time never made itinto the Wii U, except it was a
direct port and it was neverupscaled on Switch.

(31:31):
The only upscaled version of itis the 3DS version, okay, which
would have been set to 3DXthings.
There is no remastered Orcheryof Time, despite that being the
highest rated game in history.

Speaker 2 (31:51):
I thought Master Quest was at least slightly
enhanced.

Speaker 1 (31:53):
Not really.
They just use the original andmove things around and things.

Speaker 2 (32:03):
So Master Quest?

Speaker 1 (32:04):
definitely they redid the dungeons yeah, but like it
wasn't a remaster, it was likeit's like you played on hard
mode instead of regular.
Dlc on a modern game.
Hence that's what they did forHero's Quest on Zootaboot.

Speaker 2 (32:27):
The.

Speaker 1 (32:29):
Breath of the Wild.
Yeah, but back to DK64.
Did you know it had minigamesfor two to four players,
including a deathmatch.

Speaker 2 (32:37):
No, I don't think I did.

Speaker 1 (32:39):
Yeah, you could run around and shoot each other Like
it had a GoldenEye 64 mode,basically, which is where the
good memories of the game comefrom for me in the kong battle
multiplayer, because I believeit was zero punctuation put this
so eloquently.
A lot of people like to tell megames are better with friends,

(33:01):
but so is cancer, and you mightget a free skydiving trip out of
that.

Speaker 2 (33:12):
In any event, donkey Kong 64 didn't really manage to
capture the spirit of theplatformers, the same way that
Mario 64 managed to capture thespirit of Mario platformers and
with its clunky 3D controls.
The same way that Mario 64managed to capture, in the
spirit of Mario platformers andwith its clunky 3D controls and,
honestly, mediocre graphics, Ijust it's no wonder that they

(33:36):
haven't managed to make, orhaven't decided to try and make,
another 3D Donkey Kong, sincethe thing is like Up till now
they had to make like it's kindof funny, as mechanically I
could see how it would havetranslated to 3D.

Speaker 1 (33:51):
You know what I think is a hot take for one of the
things that dropped.
Well, it dropped the ball on alot of things.
The first was it made you haveto switch characters to collect
things at switch points.
Where there's a mod of the gamewhere you can hot swap

(34:14):
characters, that cuts like threehours off the run time for the
game.
Yeah, okay, and like, I thinkthe big thing and I think this
is I don't know if you'll agreeone of the key components of
donkey kong country one, two andthree was that you were
climbing a mountain on theoverworld so you went through
each zone.
But you're going through thosezones to like head to the top in
a way like right the map.
Yeah, super mario world's mapfelt more open where donkey
kong's map found like I'm goingthrough a very specific obstacle

(34:36):
course and it gave a sense ofprogression.
64 was just paintings without acastle and I cut.
Spyro and crash were too badfor this too.
I'm like I think open worldgames are pretending to be new,
like Zelda Ocarina of Timewasn't, but every stage in that

(34:57):
connected to make an overarchinggame To feel less like a series
of vignettes.
So I think if it was likestructured, that each stage
built on itself more and youwere progressing through on this
adventure even with the sameclunky, awful gameplay, it would
have felt like you werebuilding skills to things Rather

(35:19):
than going through a theme park.

Speaker 2 (35:20):
Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah.
But 2D Donkey Kongs have alwaysbeen super awesome, like Donkey
Kong Tropical Freeze.
Return to Donkey Kong CountryReturns.

Speaker 1 (35:37):
They got so artsy on some of those levels, like the
tie-in hat silhouette level KCartwork.

Speaker 2 (35:45):
Yeah, I absolutely love the newer entries to the
Donkey Kong platformer seriesand obviously Donkey Kong
Country 1, 2, and 3.
I mean, Super Nintendo is peakNintendo in my opinion.

Speaker 1 (36:04):
There's a toss up.
So for my birthday I was giftedan analog pocket.
On this analog pocket I havenormal nintendo, super nintendo,
some 64 games, playstation 1,the sega consoles, game boy,
game boy advance and a couple dsgames.
I kind of work on it.
Through playing all these gameson a handheld, I have reached

(36:24):
the conclusion that it's eitherthe Super Nintendo, the Gamecube
or the GBA.
That's the best console and itmight be the GBA, because you
know what all three are.
That work perfectly fine andclean on the GBA, all of the
Donkey Kong Country games yeah,so it's like the GBA, has all

(36:47):
the good sets all of the DonkeyKong Country games, yeah.
So it's like the GBA has all thegood sets of SNES games plus
its own software.

Speaker 2 (36:53):
The GBA was basically a Super Nintendo in your hand.
It was incredible.

Speaker 1 (36:58):
It was a Super Nintendo in your hand with new
games.
It's still incredible.
Like I am a grown-ass adultwith a Nintendo Switch and
someone handed me a functionalGBA and I'm like.
And with new games, it's stillincredible.
Like I am a grown-ass adultwith a Nintendo Switch and
someone handed me a functionalGPA and I'm like, oh my god,
it's the best thing ever I canput my feet up and listen to
like bad improv comedy whileplaying Donkey Kong Country.
Yeah, you bet, I played DonkeyKong Country for a while before

(37:20):
this episode.
It was great.

Speaker 2 (37:25):
Oh yeah, and then, if you happen to have the Game Boy
cartridges, you can play DonkeyKong Land as well.

Speaker 1 (37:29):
Holds up less great.

Speaker 2 (37:31):
Yeah, Donkey Kong Land is Not quite so tasty.

Speaker 1 (37:35):
So if we're tier listing this, and since we'll
never bother to have moregraphics in the background card
until you guys like subscribeand buy my book so we can afford
an editor, I would put 64 atthe bottom of the tier.
I like what it was trying to do.
It was charming.
The dialogue was amusing.
It simply didn't handle well.
Right up next to 64, one tierabove it, I'd put Land.

Speaker 2 (38:00):
Yeah, it's pretty.
It's kind of bizarre.
Actually I didn't look too much.
Donkey Kong Land 1 versusDonkey Kong Country.
Apparently it was just going tobe a straight port, but then
they're like nah, just make it,do something else new.
But they even reused stagetitles in Donkey Kong Land 2
specifically.

Speaker 1 (38:18):
They also used them in 64.
It's still Jungle, japes.

Speaker 2 (38:23):
Oh, yeah, good old Jungle Japes.

Speaker 1 (38:28):
Also original Donkey Kong arcade isn't really worth
going into in much detail.

Speaker 2 (38:35):
Same with.

Speaker 1 (38:35):
Junior 3, jungle Fever Banana Kingdom, banana
kingdom, yeah, yeah, we get it Iguess there are a lot of
non-platformer donkey kong games.

Speaker 2 (38:44):
Let's be honest.

Speaker 1 (38:45):
But there's donkey kong games you're thinking about
country at all, like you don'tthink mario and go jump man.
You don't think donkey kongMatt.
Yeah, let's be honest.

Speaker 2 (38:59):
Well, yeah, and like nowadays, for sure those more
arcade style games are basicallyjust mini games.

Speaker 1 (39:12):
There's not enough content to actually sell that
for more than like five bucks,to the point where Donkey Kong
original is a mini game in 64.
So yeah, donkey Kong Country 1.
64.
So yes, donkey kong country,one geek game.
But the big reason why numbertwo is my favorite is the
secrets in number one didn't doanything.
They were there, they were cool, they didn't do anything.

(39:36):
They gave you a percentage.
But it wasn't until number twowhere they're like we're going
to give you reward coins thatunlock more game.
And I'm like game changer,because the big difference
between Donkey Kong Country andSuper Mario World, in my opinion
, why Donkey Kong Country is thesuperior game, come at me, is

(39:56):
the secrets were simply moreclever in the country series and
the gameplay was less cheesable.
In super mario world you couldcape your way through an entire
level donkey kong country wasnot giving you that privilege.
Also, it had the better co-oplike why is it no other platform

(40:17):
?
At the idea of letting you hotswap?

Speaker 2 (40:24):
Yeah, I do wonder about that, because no one's
been able to really figure outhow to do simultaneous
platforming gameplay effectively, but the hot swapping.
So it's like if you need asecret and this character is
more like can actually get it,then you just watch the
character, they can get it, andthen they can play for a while

(40:44):
Like it's.
It's so genius and thefriendship.

Speaker 1 (40:48):
Ruining glory of your buddies biffs it.
So you take over cause theysuck and then they can come back
later when they've earned it.
It's like because, like Marioand and luigi was weird, like
you wouldn't even be on the samestage as each other, like it
felt really disconnected,knowing.
It's like because I take overwhen you die, I have to be

(41:08):
paying attention to what you'redoing.
Right, like one of me and oneof my good friends went through
one, two and Returns and he wasjust really good at the game and
I was not.
But like it's definitely a moreyou're more invested in it than
the Mario ones I find, whereyou can just bubble.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
Well, honestly, I've tried to play Donkey Kong
Country Returns with anotherplayer and most often the other
player just ends up riding on myback because I'm better than
them.
It was me.

Speaker 1 (41:44):
I was the other player.

Speaker 2 (41:47):
A lot of the stages have very specific jumps that
you have to jump off theenemies' heads and bounce off
them, and if both players don'tjump at the same time, then one
of them is just going to fall totheir death and you can't
bubble in Donkey Kong becauselike you say it's not about
being cheesable.

Speaker 1 (42:06):
Splitting up, though, for fighting bosses was useful.
You know what game completelynailed it, though, and no other
game will ever nail it as well.
Kirby, by its design, is themost co-op-friendly platformer.
That is true EspeciallySuperstar and Return to
Dreamland.
I think all of them have solidco-op.

(42:27):
If they have co-op, it workswell, because the game is slow
as shit and it's not that hard,and it's mostly about doofing
around and there is no precision.

Speaker 2 (42:44):
Well, I mean mean until you get to uh the hard
mode on kirby, return todreamland, yeah, but even then.

Speaker 1 (42:46):
It's not precision, it's like persistence.
It's kind of weird.
Like you can never play like amegaman x co-op, it just
wouldn't work.
But like kirby you can becauseit's like, okay, the fights,
having multiple people is usefuland the platforming is
reasonable.
But yeah, to loop back to liketier listing Donkey Kong
countries, I'm going to putoriginal.

(43:07):
Instead of rating them, we'lldo like a relativity tier list.
Donkey Kong Country is thebaseline, ok, ok, we have Donkey
Kong.
64 is the bottom.
Right slide Okay, okay, we haveDonkey Kong.
64 is the bottom, and betweenCountry and 64 we have Lands 1,
2, and 3.
Sound about right.
Okay, sounds pretty fair.

(43:27):
Donkey Kong Country 2, betterthan Donkey Kong Country.
Yep, I think it'd be hard forus to find someone who disagreed
.
Diddy and Dixie are moreinteresting characters with
their deep lore.
Hmm, I think it'd be hard forus to find someone who disagreed
.
Diddy and Dixie are moreinteresting characters with
their deep lore.
It's considered one of thegreatest 2D platformers ever
made.
Graphics, artwork, soundphysics, mechanics, puzzles.

(43:49):
They had collecting coins toget to the Lost World, visiting
the Kong family members Likejust good Kong family members,
like good stuff.
Yeah, frankie Kong being backto popular demand.
So Donkey Kong Country 3 isweird.

(44:09):
It came out, if memory serves,after the 64 came out.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
You might be correct.

Speaker 1 (44:16):
So it's the least played one, to my knowledge.
Like I didn't actually have itoriginally at this point, it was
like Mario 64 was a thing andKitty Kong is stupid.
I hate him unreasonably so, butwhere do you think?
3 falls.

(44:36):
Or is it like me where you'rejust like, yeah, I haven't
really went through that one forsome reason?
Probably because by the timeyou finish two, you're done with
the franchise for a few monthsokay, so donkey kong country 3,
uh came out in 1996 and the n64came out two months before the
release date, the N64 was alsoin 1996.

Speaker 2 (45:04):
So yeah, donkey Kong Country 3 would have been one of
the final games released forthe Super Nintendo.
I would definitely say that iskind of a similar category.
That's the one that I've playedthe least.

Speaker 1 (45:23):
It's like the stages in that one felt more maze-like
to me.
I recently was going through iton the virtual majigger on the
Switch.
It's like I was in this mazeand I had to go to the third
floor and break doors to dropdown.
It's like it felt almostover-designed to me, like the
overworld map had like thesecrystal puzzle things you had to

(45:45):
solve.
I don't know, it just didn'tquite hit right.

Speaker 2 (45:55):
Yeah, no, I would definitely say Donkey Kong
Country 3, it's probablyobjectively better than 1, but
it's just, you're right, itdoesn't sit quite right for some
reason, probably because thestupid Cousin Kong.

Speaker 1 (46:16):
Yeah, so I'll put it directly between 1 and 2?
Yeah, so.
I'll put it directly betweenone and two.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Because two had a lot like Ithink part of it's sad dressing
too.
Two was like number one waslike we're going through regular
mountains and then the ruins,and then two's like lava volcano
to theme park world.
Right, Alright.
So next we have the game thatshould have taken the place

(46:38):
Mario Kart did, but didn't DiddyKong Racing, Objectively the
best game on the Nintendo 64.-Diddy.
Kong Racing.
So I don't understand to thisday.
So here's things Diddy KongRacing had in it, right.
So I don't understand to thisday.

(46:59):
So here's things Diddy KongRacing had in it Right.
We had 10 playable characters,40 tracks, an overworld map
connecting the tracks withsecrets hidden on it, boss
battles, hidden keys and stagesthat you had to go off the stage
to get the key to complete thestage, to unlock bonus stages, a

(47:20):
password screen and a plane carboat.
Mario Kart has taken till nowto have the features of Diddy
Kong Racing.

Speaker 2 (47:37):
And it still doesn't have all of them.

Speaker 1 (47:40):
Yeah, because Did kong racing had the we drive
between the tracks, the roster,like I?
I worry that everyone in theworld is dumb but me because,
like you, had to defeat theantagonist whiz pigs through
fighting the races.
I'm like this game should havebeen the four-player racing game

(48:02):
everyone played, not Mario Kart.
I don't know what happened.

Speaker 2 (48:09):
Well, Donkey Kong 64 happened.

Speaker 1 (48:15):
This game.
First it was Parkinson's 1 withthe console yeah, it came with
the console, really yeah uh,that's probably what happened.
Everybody got Mario Mario, superMario 64 yeah, but like I'm
still going with the like huhyeah, banjo and Conker from

(48:35):
Conker's Bad Verde andBanjo-Kazooie in it.
I'm just saying this game isterrifyingly underrated.
It had Banjo and Conker fromConker's Bad Verde and
Banjo-Kazooie in it.
I'm just saying this game isterrifyingly underrated, is all
I'm saying.
Like if more people were awareof what good and bad was, this
would be really high on the list.
But since no one does, I'mgoing to put it between land and
world, sorry land and countryas a side note.

(49:04):
I don't remember following andwriting a tier list and then it
won't mathematically work.

Speaker 2 (49:11):
I don't remember what two series they were trying to
connect, but it was like Marioto Donkey Kong kong, then donkey
kong to diddy kong racing, thendiddy kong racing to
conqueror's bad fur day, andthen there was like yeah, and
there's a xenomorph inconqueror's bad fur day, so

(49:31):
mario and the xenomorphs are inthe same universe, uh poor diddy
kong racing.

Speaker 1 (49:37):
I just find it funny because, like I do legitimately
and this isn't just me beingnostalgic I think Diddy Kong
Racing was better than MarioKart.
But more parents played MarioKart with their kids because it
was easier.
It's like Mario Kart was a lesscomplex game so more people
played it.

Speaker 2 (49:56):
Mmm, you're right, that could be another factor,
the first factor being that lesspeople played it.
Mmm, yeah, you're right, thatcould be another factor, the
first factor being that lesspeople played it because they
just got Mario 64.
And then the second factorbeing that no one, including the
potential customers, the gamers, no one was used to 3D gaming,
so a simpler racing gameprobably just felt more
intuitive.

Speaker 1 (50:17):
It's just it's rough man, because it was objectively
interesting, like I think whatgets me is whenever I see the
book, yeah, you turn to a boatin the water and hang glide.
I'm like it's city con racing.
You wish you were.
You wish you were because, likeI give this rant all the time
so at at some point through likeevolution or game design,

(50:39):
people have taken games that hadrich one-player modes and
multiplayer and stripped out theone-player, and I'm a firm
believer that a one-playercampaign is what trains people
to play multiplayer and it's amistake to cut them, but their
data analytics showed morepeople played multiplayer.
But their data analytics showedmore people played multiplayer.
My favorite example is SmashBros for the Wii U, where it's
like most people would not haveplayed through the story mode of

(51:03):
that because there wasn't one,but I played through the story
mode of Smash Bros Melee, smashBros Brawl and Smash Bros Deluxe
Plus, ultra, ultimate.
There we go and I enjoy that.
But I find like ps2 era fightinggames would have full story
modes and then what would happenis you and your friend would go

(51:26):
play through the story modes onyour own and then when you
fought each other, it wouldn'tbe a one-sided beatdown because
you've played the game a bunch,and even shooters like goldeneye
.
If everyone goes through thegoldeneye campaign on their own,
then then comes over to play 64, they have practice on the game
and the game's kind of taughtyou how to play it Right.
So when I play Diddy KongRacing and they're like actual

(51:46):
boss battles and bonuses and afull campaign, and then you play
Versus, practicing Mario Kartto play with your friends is
just playing less fun Mario Kart.
That's true.
You just go through and clearthe cups and then there's too
easy, kind of easy hard.
You should probably net deckand it's like they could have a

(52:10):
fun story mode with boss battles, events and things.
We have the technology, we'vehad it for 20 years.
But they're like, nah, you justrace your cars and we get to
this open world Mario Kart oneand people are like, yeah, we're
Nintendo fanboys and this isawesome, like I'd be in the
evidence man, because like,where's the stuff.

(52:30):
It's not like you're going tobe playing through the open
world of Mario Kart and thenBowser's Island's gonna drop as
a meteorite and you're gonnahave to do a death race like you
don't get to do Fury Roadthrough it like you did.
The bare minimum, guys, that's.
My hot take is I enjoy games youcan beat and I hate open worlds

(52:53):
that have nothing in them, thatare just there for the same
thing.
Open world to the point wherein retrospect, I think Breath of
the Wild actually is like inthird place for my favorite
Zelda game.
It's like it has some of thebest gameplay physics mechanics
I've ever played in my life,like the logic in that game of
the fire sword to keep you warmin the ice and the ice sword to

(53:14):
keep you cold in the desert, andlike following the farticle
effects of the torch.
Like mechanically, instead ofusing physics, they just did
things that were fun, right, andthen, like the shrines were
like have more HP.
These are really clever puzzles.
I trade all of that for a linearnarrative that makes you feel

(53:36):
like you're getting better atthe game and the ability to feel
like you've completed itBecause Orc Arena of Time like I
got this heart container byplaying these frogs in the woods
was so much less disconnectedthan I went to this island.
That put me into a dungeonwhere I had to do a park war
maze.
There definitely was a hugedisconnect there um but to

(54:01):
continuing along donkey konggames, because I have a list and
they're not as extensive assome of these list episodes
we've done looking at you yeah,okay okay, star wars, all right.
so next we have the donkeykongas for the gamecube.
Did not play those.
I love the concept of specialDK bongos, but I never played
those.
I see why they would be fun.

Speaker 2 (54:25):
I also never really played those.

Speaker 1 (54:29):
Like you're right, they can be fun, but also like a
rhythm game, just inherentlydoesn't have that much depth so
like how much of a flop wasdonkey kong 64 for them to not
release another donkey kongmainstream name game that wasn't
minigames till 2010?

(54:49):
So between 2000, 1999 and 2010,the only game first, only
donkey k Kong games that werereleased on this list of Donkey
Kong games were Kongas andBarrel Blast.

Speaker 2 (55:02):
Barrel Blast.

Speaker 1 (55:03):
Apparently it was a kart-style racing game for the
Wii Shows how much I cared aboutthat game.
Yeah, apparently it wasdesigned to be controlled with
the bongos as a racing game.
Why you would want that.

(55:24):
Like, I'll let them have that.
So donkey kong country returnsis so much better than the new
super mario bros console.
Uh, concept like it was thesame core concept of new super
mario bros.
Let's go back to basics.
Yeah, but retro studio, themetroid prime, donkey kong

(55:44):
people, decided to justunderstand what they were doing.
Also, I'm looking for the listof games that Retro Studio has
made and it's Metroid Prime,prime 2, prime 3, hunters,
donkey Kong Country Returns,tropical Fairies and Mario Kart

(56:05):
7 for the 3DS.
What a successful track record.
Yeah, there isn't a single.
Not only is there not a singlebad game on there, there isn't a
single game that drops below 90on Metacritic on that list.
Apparently they're also goingto do a Star Fox game, a Zelda

(56:26):
game and a game called RavenBlade, but those projects got
canceled.
I'm like, give these guys morestuff to do.
What are you doing?
Although, to be fair, theyspent the last seven years
working on Metroid Prime 4.

Speaker 2 (56:42):
Hmm, so Metroid Prime 4.

Speaker 1 (56:46):
Five dudes in a basement who are really good at
what they do.
Who knows, However?
So I'm taking those last DonkeyKong drum type games and just
not putting them on our list.

Speaker 2 (56:57):
Well, maybe we can put them below Donkey Kong 64,
because they're not exactly evenin the same category.

Speaker 1 (57:03):
Alright, we'll put them at the bottom, but Country
Returns.
This hurts me to do.
It goes in first.

Speaker 2 (57:13):
Do you like Donkey Kong Country Returns that much.

Speaker 1 (57:16):
I think I did.
I 100% did that game.
Did you play Tropical Freeze?

Speaker 2 (57:22):
Hmm, okay, that's fair.

Speaker 1 (57:23):
So I never played Tropical Freeze, Hmm.
However, Returns compared to 1,2, and 3 had everything I liked
about 1, 2, and 3, had co-op.
That was good at that hotswapping I could play with a
friend.
Had Wii motion controls thatdidn't make me use them.
Bonus points for them, beingoptional, had those fun artsy

(57:47):
levels, good music levels.
I would have it like I think Iactually have it between Donkey
Kong Country 1 and 2.
Like same spot as Donkey KongCountry 3, probably Possibly
above that.
How are you feeling on returns?
I'm also kind of giving a bonuspoint for like being a return

(58:11):
to a franchise that tried.

Speaker 2 (58:16):
I think I would put it above number 2.
Because, like you say, it haseverything that number two had
and more.

Speaker 1 (58:23):
It actually is a 21 improvement it didn't fuck it up
because a lot of games havetried that since, and just kind
of dropped the ball on that.

Speaker 2 (58:32):
I do really like the foreground background thing, but
it is true that a lot of gamesdon't know how to do it.
Kirby didn't do it well, and itwas.

Speaker 1 (58:38):
Kirby.

Speaker 2 (58:41):
I don't mean 50-50.
There were a couple coolforeground-background puzzles,
but I'm just saying it's waybetter.

Speaker 1 (58:50):
Like it was just like it just did a good game better
for the most part, in my opinion, Hmm, and yeah, like yeah, I
have no other real notes otherthan game.
Better for the most part, in myopinion.
And yeah, like I have no otherreal notes other than some of
those stages, I'm like oh man,the background, lighting, the
music, the vibes, nailed it,really nailed it.

(59:10):
Tropical Freeze sir.

Speaker 2 (59:16):
I do think Tropical Freeze has better level design
and is otherwise on par withDonkey Kong Country Returns.
I would say Tropical Freeze isthe best 2D platformer Donkey
Kong.

Speaker 1 (59:35):
I can accept that because if it's Donkey Kong
Country Returns, but thatbecause if it's Donkey Kong
Country Returns, but better.
Yeah, I think it's funny.
Like I don't really have aretort to that, I'll take your
word for it.

Speaker 2 (59:48):
Well, I mean, yeah, I've played both.
I haven't actually successfully100%ed both, but I've gotten
like 95%-ish on both of them andthey're both excellent games.
But I think, gotten like95%-ish on both of them and they
were both excellent games, butI think I like the stage design
for Tropical Freeze more.

Speaker 1 (01:00:06):
All right, and I'm just kind of going through the
handheld list because theyweren't in the console list.
But it's like Donkey Konghockey doesn't need to go on our
list.
We didn't play things on theGame Watch, so I'm just going to
ignore the Game Watch titles.

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
Well then, those aren't really the platformers
either.
Those would be like theminigame-ish ones.

Speaker 1 (01:00:28):
Land wanted to be Donkey Kong Country.
It wasn't.

Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
I mean, I loved Donkey Kong Land because it was
so close to being Donkey KongCountry that I could just have
it in my pocket, but it wasslightly inferior in pretty much
every way.

Speaker 1 (01:00:49):
There's a game called Donkey Kong King of Swing, but
that was like a puzzly typething.
I'm going to put that at thebottom.
I wouldn't even try and playthat.
Let's see the Mario vs DonkeyKong series, not counting
Mario's name's there.
First and lastly, theterrifying CGI Donkey Kong

(01:01:12):
Country animated series.
Triple S tier is Triple S tier.
It is a nightmare abominationwith the worst voice acting,
animation, writing and plotimaginable.
And that makes it worth a watch.
It's worth a study.

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
The real reason that we've done this episode on
Donkey Kong at all is because ofthe newly announced Donkey Kong
Bonanza.
That's what it's called, right.

Speaker 1 (01:01:45):
Yeah, so it's been what 25 years since Donkey Kong
3D games came out.

Speaker 2 (01:01:52):
Something like that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
You know, I really didn't think Donkey Kong 64 did
that bad on launch.
I really didn't think DonkeyKong 64 did that bad on launch.
I really didn't think it didthat bad.
But apparently it did so badthat they didn't even try and do
it for a decade.
I thought it had a criticalacclaim.
Like I'm looking at thereception, it's like 90 on

(01:02:15):
Metacritic critical acclaim butapparently not reception.

Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
It's like 90 on metacritic, critical acclaim,
but apparently not well again.
I mean looking at it at thetime.
I mean the 3d graphics wereamazing and you know, donkey,
car it plays somewhat similar tomario 64, which, uh, people do
actually enjoy that game.
The 64 version is the worstversion to play, but that's

(01:02:39):
neither here nor there, but itjust doesn't capture the spirit
of Donkey Kong.

Speaker 1 (01:02:50):
Well, it is fundamentally a collect-a-thon.
It has more in line withBanjo-Kazooie than anything
which is the same studio makessense.

Speaker 2 (01:03:00):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:03:00):
So yeah, bizzanza.
So my initial thoughts watchingthe trailer where they decide
to make Angrier Donkey Kong withPaulina as a sidekick and
they're doing like a I don'tknow, this is my hot take and it
kind of loops back to the startof our episode.
This feels like a Disney rebootof Donkey Kong 64, and I'm not

(01:03:23):
here for it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:24):
Uh, you think so.
So, because it's the samestudio that did Mario Odyssey,
yeah, but, and Mario Odyssey isempirically the best Mario 3D
platformer.

Speaker 1 (01:03:38):
Ugh, I hate that.
You're right.
So Mario Odyssey, I mean yeah,so I'm shocked that Mario
Odyssey wasn't truly open world.
By the way, I am literallyshocked that it didn't just
connect the areas.
I'm not sure if that's good orbad.

Speaker 2 (01:03:59):
It just feels like they would have at that point in
their death cycles that is aninteresting quirk, where it's
like it didn't even have anoverworld map.
It was actually more of a menu,where you go onto the ship and
then you select which world youwant to fly your ship to what's
funny too, is like there'spaintings that connected stages.

Speaker 1 (01:04:21):
You could warp through them, but I wonder if it
was supposed to be and theyjust chickened out.

Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
Yeah, maybe, or ran out of time for that, because
that would be more so icing onthe cake.
The general gameplay and stagedesign are top-notch and I'm
excited to see them bring thatto Donkey Kong, because Mario
Odyssey had this coolroll-and-dash jump where you

(01:04:48):
could ground-pound and then flipand dash and jump to try to get
on your head.

Speaker 1 (01:04:52):
The movement game in Odyssey was unparalleled,
despite my quips with NintendoSwitch 2 and their.
If you buy Nintendo Switch 2and their.
If you buy a Switch game and weshoot you, you can't sue us all
in their legal agreements.
That's actually there, by theway, what If you die at a
Nintendo theme park and said yesto terms and conditions on a
Switch 2?
you cannot sue them for lots oflife Also they can break your

(01:05:16):
console if you use third-partypiece of equipment with it.
Sheesh, yeah, they can remotelyirrevocably destroy your
console you bought with yourmoney if you clicked.
I agree to this licenseagreement that you can't not
click to if you do somethingthat displeases them.
So, like holistically, I needto dunk on nintendo conceptually

(01:05:38):
, right now I have to.
I'm not even saying I wouldn'tget a switch to and play it if I
had money, I probably would.
But I'm obligated to point outthat that is toxic,
anti-consumer behavior and theyshould feel bad.
You're listening, miyamoto.
You can hear this.
You listen to this podcast?
I saw kirby at a ride game.
You're listening right now.
This is a bad user agreementand you're being mean well, I

(01:06:04):
mean you.

Speaker 2 (01:06:04):
You might be getting mad at the wrong person, but
that's not really the point.

Speaker 1 (01:06:07):
I feel he knows the person to yell at.
Like no, he didn't yell, but Ifeel like he, like, could get in
the room where it happened.
I like the emoto, that's whyI'm reaching out to him.
I'm not going to reach out toliteral Doug Bowser.
That just seems like that won'twork.

Speaker 2 (01:06:28):
Oh, that's funny.

Speaker 1 (01:06:30):
But yeah, what I've seen for it so far is like the
sandblocks, underground world,punching, sla, slapping, beating
people with trees, collectinggems to transform your
animalities like there's a lotthat it could be a sick game

(01:06:52):
well, and like I was getting towith the like the rolling jump
thing, that was like what I wasgetting to with the like the
rolling jump thing.

Speaker 2 (01:07:00):
That was like what really set Donkey Kong Country
apart from Super Mario World wasthat you could roll off a cliff
you could roll off a cliff andyou could jump, and you could.
There were more movementoptions in Donkey Kong Country.

Speaker 1 (01:07:16):
Donkey Kong.
Country has such sick to watchspeedruns.

Speaker 2 (01:07:20):
So to give a mini -tangent yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 1 (01:07:24):
So I watch a fair number of speedruns because some
of my good friends enjoywatching the GameStop quick
marathons right, I don't likeglitch speedruns because they
feel lame.
To watch Mario speedruns arelike you cape through most of it
.
Right For Mario Super MarioWorld.
Aim to watch mario.
Speed runs are like you camethrough most of it.
Right for mario super marioworld.
Doggy kong country.
Other than like the levelsthey're like.
Yeah, you can just skip thislevel.
And then one of the categoriesis you can't.

(01:07:45):
Those speed runs are likethey're not glitching.
I'm knocking off five bees byusing barrel like you have to.
Like, you have to try.

Speaker 2 (01:07:56):
There's no jake, you just have to be badass oh, but,
uh, when I feel like when theytried to transition donkey kong
country or the donkey kongplatformers to 3d, uh, that,

(01:08:16):
that range of movement options,it was really difficult for them
to translate at the timebecause nobody knew how to do 3D
, but they ended up paring itdown to being basically just
another Mario 64, but Mario 64does all the same aspects but

(01:08:36):
better.

Speaker 1 (01:08:37):
So what's kind of funny is.

Speaker 2 (01:08:39):
Than Donkey Kong 64.

Speaker 1 (01:08:40):
So Mario 64 is objectively a collect-a-thon as
well, right, the firstcollect-a-thon, really, because
you're in 3D space and what doyou do?
You hide objects for people tofind in the 3D space, right?
Donkey Kong 64 went to theridiculous extreme of every
character has their own bananasto collect in the same area, so
play through it eight times,right.

(01:09:01):
But Donkey Kong Country, as Iwas kind of alluding to with my
mini-rant and back when me andmy friend were going through
them all, is a speed-run,optimized game.
In a way it's like we wouldcall it speed-run tactics and
the idea would you can't let goof run, you hold forward and you

(01:09:21):
just jump and go.
And the game was kind of set up.
You could get away with that.
Like, a lot of the stagesthere's very few, you had to
wait.
If you just went for it, you'dalmost be better off a lot of
the time, right.
And yeah, 64, its problem wasit was a collect-a-thon where,
if they'd made them 3D stagesbut designed them more of a how

(01:09:42):
fast can I get to the end ofthis stage?
It would have been great.

Speaker 2 (01:09:49):
But like that's kind of what I'm looking back to.
I will say that.
I will say that it definitelydoes look like the
collect-a-thon is more focused.

Speaker 1 (01:09:57):
Well it's going look like the collect-a-thon is more
focused.
Well, it's going to be acollect-a-thon, because
journalists are calling it theMario Odyssey sequel, and I'm
99% sure it's built on the MarioOdyssey engine.

Speaker 2 (01:10:09):
It's the same studio.

Speaker 1 (01:10:10):
Yeah, like they literally started with.
Here's our physics engine forthis and we're going to do
Donkey Kong Also.
It's like destructibleenvironment I have I think it
was like a PS2 red something orMars shooter game.
It's the only one I've seen ina while like destructible
environments are such a coolconsummate game.

Speaker 2 (01:10:31):
No one ever actually does because there has to be
limits.
No there doesn't and it's hard.
Are you actually going to letsomeone destroy the stage to the
point where they clip out anddie?

Speaker 1 (01:10:47):
Yes, cowards, so we love hand-holding games in this
world.
Right, if we go back to Worms.
Worms, you could literally justkill yourself by blowing up the
stage and you lose.
That's true.
I'm weirdly on board you'regonna go destructible, make it

(01:11:08):
destructible.
So, like if we go back togundam versus zeta gundam on the
ps2 all the buildings areblowing up, but the rocks are
bulletproof.
You can't laser the rock todeath.
And I'm like with moderntechnology, surely we can make
it that if I hide under amountain, I can shoot a beam
cannon through the mountain andhit you by blowing up the rock.

(01:11:29):
Why are we not doing this?
You cowards?
Blow up these.

Speaker 2 (01:11:34):
Like.

Speaker 1 (01:11:35):
The really sad ones are the LEGO games, where
everything's made of lego butit's not all destructible or
rebuildable yep, although man,oh man, the last lego game, lego
horizon dawn, where theydecided so under city and other
lego games would use likegeneric terrain but all the
buildings and people would belego and horizon.
Everything is lego from likethey use, like the lego movie

(01:11:59):
engine where, like the rivers,would like be the loose blue
tiles streaming down them andlike everything is.
Lego and it made me so happy,but yeah, maybe I should pick
that up for my Switch.
I am a firm believer that ifyou're going to have
destructible environments, don'tbe cowards.
And I think they're going to becowards Because the saying here

(01:12:22):
is like in the trailer smashalmost every surface and destroy
terrain.
I'm like until you can't, untilyou hit the bedrock.

Speaker 2 (01:12:32):
Well, they do have some sort of power-up-your-punch
mechanic, so I feel like theremay be some hidden secrets that
you have to like.
You progress through the gameand your punch gets strong
enough that you can go back andre-smash the terrain, but there
definitely will be at least onetier of terrain that is
unsmashable, no matter howstrong your punch is.

(01:12:53):
I feel like you're correct onthat.

Speaker 1 (01:12:55):
I'm fine with that.
Like even Minecraft, like okay,I feel like you're correct on
that.
I'm fine with that.
Like even Minecraft, like okay.
I understand that you need abottom of the planet, hmm, but
I'm saying a lot of people arecowards with their instructional
environments is all I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (01:13:07):
I do wonder if they're going to go all the way
to like the bedrock level ofMinecraft, or if they are going
to just actually have invisiblewalls that annoy you.

Speaker 1 (01:13:19):
So here's my mini rant on invisible walls.
It's going to be a weird one,so a lot of games will use
invisible walls and you won'tknow they're there until you hit
them.
Mario.
Odyssey implemented invisiblewalls in places.
Sonic Adventure 2 and 1 did nothave invisible walls on their
stages, and what that meant isthere's parts of stages where

(01:13:42):
you could jump off a clip,literally land on what looked
like a background detail, jumpdown and hit a ground rail and
skip a chunk of the stage.
That is so good for stagereplayability when you can just
see something and go there andnot be stopped by random acts of
god so, yeah, with moderncomputing, yeah, we should be

(01:14:06):
able to just render the entiremap and have you explore it
without getting hit by the forceyeah, and I mean like, um, at
the very least, like all ofthese stages kind of seem to be
um kind of abstract chunks.
Uh, it looks like it's almostlike a mind going up, kind of

(01:14:29):
thing well, I think it's a mindgoing down.

Speaker 2 (01:14:34):
Is the I would have to re-watch the nintendo direct,
but it's pretty sure it's amind going down.

Speaker 1 (01:14:40):
Right, right, and your idea is to kind of like
break your way down through.
But I will say so.
I think part of what blocksDonkey Kong games is like Rare
owned the Donkey Kong Countrygames in a way and, like I don't
know, there were some thingsthey had to figure out there.
That's true.
True, apparently you can useyour game share where someone on
a regular nintendo switch cancontrol pauline for some kind of

(01:15:03):
co-op and like this could be areally cool game control.

Speaker 2 (01:15:07):
That makes sense, uh, because so mario odyssey, uh
top tier best platformer formario.
3d platformer for Mario.
I always want to, um, actuallyyou, but like I can't well, the
only um actually you might beable to get me is that the

(01:15:29):
Bowser's Fury, which itself isbasically just a stage in Mario
Odyssey, with cooler mechanics.

Speaker 1 (01:15:37):
3D World was so good and its co-op actually worked.

Speaker 2 (01:15:44):
That is true.
3d World does give MarioOdyssey a run for its money, and
if they did a 3D Country, aDonkey Kong 3D Country, that
could be pretty excellent.

Speaker 1 (01:15:56):
But I will say like, like it's less 3d, like mario,
like though it was more closerto like a isometric game than a
straight up 3d game to make 3dworld actually work at all, and
did suffer a bit from uh, thisgame isn't actually better with
multiple players, that's true.

(01:16:17):
Oh, I think we did use multipleplayers to actually beat
Challenge Road, anywho.
Odyssey was definitely thebetter game, so I can't.
Um, actually, you, I want to,but I can't.

Speaker 2 (01:16:32):
But so Bowser's Fury had Bowser Jr as a controllable
partner that you could co-opwith and then you just fly
around and paint things to getcoins and whatnot Didn't really
actually add anything to thatgame in particular, but it was
very similar to how Cappy worksin Mario Odyssey, and I feel

(01:16:55):
like Pauline is probably goingto be in the same category,
where the co-op player isbasically free to go wherever
they want and they can help youfind secrets and stuff, but
they're not actually going to bea real full-fledged player.

Speaker 1 (01:17:11):
Man, I'm almost salty that this game doesn't feel
like it.
How can I put this?
It's such a reboot that I feellike it's not gonna have a lot
of like references and deep cutsto the previous one, where
donkey kong 64 was actuallyreally funny in dialogue, like
you literally see a characterbeing like I'm a ghost because I

(01:17:32):
didn't survive through donkeykong country 3 through Donkey
Kong Country 3.
Okay, so like I'm curious to seehow this goes Because, like
Donkey Kong's, a weird franchisewhere the humor has always been
like kind of off-the-wallswhimsical, right, and Mario's
humor has always beennon-existent.

(01:17:53):
It's not funny.
It wants to be, but it's not.

Speaker 2 (01:17:57):
Yeah, well, I mean Mario just basically has no real
plot or anything to it.

Speaker 1 (01:18:04):
Right where Donkey Kong's objectively the villain
of the Donkey Kong Countryfranchise.
Yeah, I've hoarded all of thefood.
Someone stole it to distributeit and I'm going to go sink his
empire of the food.
Someone stole it to distributeit and I'm going to go sink his
empire.
Being a good person has neverbeen the objective of those
Donkey Kong Country games.

Speaker 2 (01:18:25):
No, it has not.
Anyways, I mean, both of us arenot in a position to actually
get a Nintendo Switch 2.
So it's unlikely that we'll beable to play Donkey Kong Bonanza
at launch.
But that Nintendo Switch Directmade me feel like the Mario

(01:18:48):
Odyssey engine is the way tocapture those movement options
that were present in theoriginal platformers and remakes
.

Speaker 1 (01:18:58):
I agree, like it's not even a quip.
It's more like I'm curious tosee if it is just Odyssey 2 or
if it feels like a Donkey Konggame, because there is no 3D
Donkey Kong games really tobuild off of.

Speaker 2 (01:19:16):
So it's like we're kind of reinventing the wheel.
It doesn't look like there'sgoing to be a lot of swinging
and climbing either.

Speaker 1 (01:19:24):
Yeah, swinging and climbing.

Speaker 2 (01:19:27):
They're using weird.
They're using weird likebuilding with sands and like
this focus does seem like it'sgoing to be the destructible
terrain.

Speaker 1 (01:19:35):
Which I'm kind of fine with.
But it's like I wonder if Iwould be more excited for Donkey
Kong Bonanza if it was anoriginal IP, if they just give
it, if this was weird.
Take Dig Dug Bonanza and wasthe dig dug guy, I'd actually be
more on board.

Speaker 2 (01:19:54):
Okay, now I'm actually curious uh, are there
any?

Speaker 1 (01:19:58):
there's probably zero 3d dig dug games I'm sure there
will be actually let's see.
Hmm, really I don't know why, Ijust have a feeling 3D game.

Speaker 2 (01:20:12):
Let's see.

Speaker 1 (01:20:16):
Dig Dug Deeper was the 3D remake of the original
Dig Dug Deeper.
Looks real bad, I digress.
I'm not saying Dig Dug Guy wasthe answer here.
Looks real bad, I digress, I'mnot saying Dig Dug Guy was the
answer here.
Bomberman might have been Afully destructible open world

(01:20:38):
Bomberman game in the style ofBomberman 64.

Speaker 2 (01:20:42):
Bomberman 64 1 and 2 were so ballin' yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:20:47):
And some of the weird Super Nintendo ones.

Speaker 2 (01:20:52):
Well, I mean the weird Super Nintendo ones just
had cool powers and stuff.
But like Bomberman 64 and 64 2were both just, they were just
objectively like better versionsof the original Bomberman games
.
Like they were great.

Speaker 1 (01:21:08):
I don't know what other women would be like when
we're talking 3D platformercollect-a-thons.
Bomberman 64 was really goodbecause you were doing puzzles
like a lot of thesecollect-a-thons.
But instead of jump and pick upthe thing, it was strategic of
blowing shit up.
Right and I could get behind apuzzle that you solve by

(01:21:30):
dropping a bridge on someone andthen like blowing up to get
security cards and a base LikeBomberman 64 was great.
I don't really have a hot take,it just was a cool game.

Speaker 2 (01:21:41):
Well, and then.
Bomberman 64 2 was just astraight-up improvement over the
first one.

Speaker 1 (01:21:47):
So that's kind of my weird take for Bonanza is it
doesn't feel like Donkey Kong,because Donkey Kong doesn't
really have a flavor Fair whenReturns is like oh you got the
energy perfect.
But this one feels like DonkeyKong could be subbed out with
any Nintendo character and itwould be the same basic premise

(01:22:08):
of a game.

Speaker 2 (01:22:10):
Hmm, yeah, you might be right.

Speaker 1 (01:22:14):
I mean, aside from the flavor of bananas, well,
like if it was Odyssey 2, itwould just be Odyssey 2, but
you'd have to give Mario somekind of like rock-punching
power-up.
And then Kirby had a chance.
The 3D Kirby game had a chanceto do something cool and
innovative and just didn't uh,yeah, the Forgotten Lands.

Speaker 2 (01:22:35):
Forgotten Lands felt like it could have been that
exact game on GameCube.

Speaker 1 (01:22:40):
That's my problem with Forgotten Lands, for the
number of stages, the level ofthe 3D, the boss, spice and
design.
That could have been a GameCubegame.

Speaker 2 (01:22:52):
It felt a lot more like 3D World, which itself is a
great game, but like MarioOdyssey.
If you wanted to play a 3DMario game, play Mario Odyssey.

Speaker 1 (01:23:07):
Nintendo's in a weird space where some of its games
feel like they're in a differentgeneration than other ones of
its games on the same generation.
It's like for the Switch, halfof their games were 3DS games
and the other half were Wii Ugames, so it's like Odyssey felt
like it needed to be on theSwitch to function.

Speaker 2 (01:23:27):
3d World didn't Right , Because I mean it straight up,
didn't?

Speaker 1 (01:23:33):
And a lot of their games, even if they were both
designed for the same system,kind of had that feeling where
it's like this game easily couldhave been a Game Boy game.
It doesn't feel like it pushedthe needle of that genre forward
, like we'll take like Pokemon,diamondaker, let's go.
It's like, yeah, that wouldhave ran on 3ds fine.
Oh, scarlet violet maybe.
Like uh, legends r system.

(01:23:54):
Like, yeah, that felt like a,you evolved your game, so it's
like like you were actually like.

Speaker 2 (01:24:02):
You're actually taking advantage of the software
, of the hardware, to make it atechnically superior game.

Speaker 1 (01:24:09):
And what's funny with Returns is, on the Wii Returns
was a high enough quality 2Dplatformer.
With the way it had backgrounds, music effects like cannonball
shooting the backdrop, and thenthat making a bridge into the
background, kind of things.
It didn't feel like a previousgen game Like Returns, didn't

(01:24:30):
feel like it was going to berunning on the gamecube, despite
being a 2d platformer.
Rayman also had that effect.
Where it's like, this is likeyeah, it's a 2d platformer, but
it's a.
You've tried really hard onthis 2d platformer I mean, I
love rayman Origins right.
So when we get to this bonanza,being like, okay, this feels

(01:24:52):
like a next gen Donkey Kong game, but it also feels like it's
Odyssey 2, which is both it'scurse and it's blessing.
But I have yet to see a Switch2 game come out that feels next
gen.
That couldn't run on a Switch 1.
Fair, because Mario Kart, as Imentioned, wasn't more

(01:25:13):
technologically impressive thanDiddy Kong Racing.

Speaker 2 (01:25:18):
Yeah, I do wonder.
Do you think they're ever goingto port down versions?

Speaker 1 (01:25:26):
I don't think so they like money.

Speaker 2 (01:25:30):
I mean that's true, but if they port down versions
they could make more money.

Speaker 1 (01:25:33):
Why would they do that when they can buy a new
console to play a Mario Kartthat's worse in some ways than
the current Mario Kart.
It has less tracks and worsecharacters.

Speaker 2 (01:25:44):
Worse characters.
It has more characters, it hasevery character.
You can imagine pretty muchthey cut can imagine pretty much
they cut characters what theycut characters.
Yeah, how did?
Now I'm confused.
I mean, I haven't really lookedtoo much into it because I
don't have a switch to, so I'mlike I don't want to be in.

(01:26:05):
I don't want to look at it andbe like I really want this and
then impulse buy it even thoughI shouldn't.

Speaker 1 (01:26:10):
Kirishu did not make it into the new Mario Kart game,
despite them adding a bunch ofdumb characters like cows and
fish, diddy Kong, funky Kong.
Petey.
Piranha, dry Bowser, dixie KongKing, bob-omb, larry Lemmy, roy
Wendy, iggy Morton, lugwig,paratroopa Kimmick and Donkey

(01:26:33):
Kong Jr.
Huh See, it's not that they cutcharacters, it's that.
Why would you possibly need tocut characters Also Link and the
Animal Crossing and thecrossover characters?
Well, in the crossovercharacters.

Speaker 2 (01:26:48):
Well, in the crossover characters, it makes
sense that, like, as stupid asit is, licensing issues make it
difficult for them to have thosecharacters available that long.
I know they're Nintendocharacters, but even still it's
like um.

Speaker 1 (01:27:04):
I'm gonna use my F-bomb.
Fuck that Nintendo.
You absolutely could have keptLincoln the new one.
You own Lincoln, you own Marioand it's like well, the fans
would break them.
What are you talking about?
There is literally no reason toundo that, unless you're
planning to sell it back to uslater, like they probably are.

(01:27:24):
Like I like, it's just I'm madat that one because it's like OK
, there's no actual reason foryou to have this game have less
content.
It has less tracks.
Why would it have?
What possible reason could yougive me to not have every Mario

(01:27:45):
Kart Deluxe Ultimate track inthe new launch title for your
new system?

Speaker 2 (01:27:52):
Hmm, yeah, I do.

Speaker 1 (01:27:58):
That is bizarre that they cut content Because it
doesn't look that much better.
If your argument is like, well,we'd have to upscale the old
tracks, I'm like yeah, okay,Sure.

Speaker 2 (01:28:14):
Yeah, I mean you really wouldn't, yeah, but in
any event, Donkey Kong Countryor Donkey Kong Bonanza, looks
really awesome.
You are right that it doesn'texactly look like a next-gen
game.
It looks like it could just runon the Switch, because Odyssey

(01:28:36):
runs on the Switch.
Yeah well, but we'll see.

Speaker 1 (01:28:40):
So if it's truly destructible environments that
could justify the new hardware,I'll let them have that If it
really does feel like.
Because you know, in Breath ofthe Wild blowing up trees was
deeply satisfying.
Breath of the Wild would havebeen so much better if you could
mine your way through any rockin that, if that game was fully
destructible, except when theblood mood came and respawned

(01:29:03):
everything that would have beenamazing.
You could just bomb it andyou're like, oh, there's a
shrine on the other side of thismountain and one of your
options is just shoot, bombarrows until you tunnel through.
Hmm, that would have beenamazing.

Speaker 2 (01:29:19):
Do you like how it makes your problem with the?

Speaker 1 (01:29:20):
holy destructible environment being a design
problem, is you just respawneverything on a red moon,
completely fixing that problem?
Unless you bomb, arrow yourselfinto the ground until you go so
deep into the map you can nolonger climb out and you die and
suffocate there.
Game has quick travel, so youcan just teleport out.
Don't be a punk, don't be apunk, all right.

(01:29:43):
So we do have a random questionof the week that was submitted
to me earlier today.

Speaker 2 (01:29:48):
OK, OK.

Speaker 1 (01:29:50):
Like two hours before our episode.
Ooh, what show, manga and videogame would you recommend to
somebody new to, respectively,animation, manga and video games
, who specifically wants tolearn more about world building?
So they're a writer friend ofmine and they want to be a

(01:30:16):
better world builder.
They want to make better TTRPGcontent.
What show would you make themwatch?
I see, what comic or manga orbook would you make them read
and what game would you makethem play?
I'll start with mine for comic.
So remember recently how wementioned they put Fullmetal
Alchemist on Webtoon and phoneformatted it.
Right, yeah, I gave themFullmetal Alchemist.
That's a great way to read that.

(01:30:36):
It's already phone formatted.
You can read it on the toilet,but Fullmetal Alchemist, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:30:44):
That's definitely the top tier choice for comic slash
manga.
Yeah, so I gave this so good,no, no, I would choose the same
thing.
That's like the gold standardtake a conversation.

Speaker 1 (01:30:59):
Just cause I sniped the best one doesn't mean you're
like yeah, you're right, I knowI'm right, the internet knows
I'm right.
For about a week Freedron was acompetitor, but for world
building Freedron was acompetitor, but for
worldbuilding.
Freedron's worldbuilding isgood, it's not as good.

Speaker 2 (01:31:16):
I mean, the plot of World Trigger has derailed, but
that is also top-tierworldbuilding, such a different
direction.

Speaker 1 (01:31:29):
But I agree and like I was also thinking for world
building, like it's not Bleach.
Bleach's world is some bullshit.
Naruto has some pretty solidworld building.
Until it doesn't Right right,dragon Ball is all over the
place.
I can't in good consciencerecommend Dragon Ball,

(01:31:49):
especially for world building.

Speaker 2 (01:31:51):
No, definitely.
Dragon Ball is not good forworld building because Akira
Toriyama just did whatever hewanted.

Speaker 1 (01:31:58):
Lucifer and the Biscuit Hammer is a good one for
world building on a grunt-typegrunge.
Hmm.
But let's go animated seriesnext so.

Speaker 2 (01:32:10):
I suggested.

Speaker 1 (01:32:11):
Avatar the Last Airbender, because I'm a bastard
you did just snipe another goodone yeah, these are like I have
a book on world building, andthose are like their first two
examples for a reason.
Okay, first two examples for areason.

Speaker 2 (01:32:30):
Okay, do you think the Digimon series has some good
world building?

Speaker 1 (01:32:38):
It's too mixed, can't do it.
I want it to be, but I can't,can't do it.
So it's like you drop thesekids into this island and you're
like boom world, boom world,boom world.
But it's a little too close,it's too inconsistent, right
Like random shit just happens.
The Digimon World game whereyou explore File Island piece by

(01:33:02):
piece, would be easier for meto recommend than the show you
know actually also you can useto recommend than the show.

Speaker 2 (01:33:11):
Hmm, you know actually also you can use live
action in the show category.
Fair, fair.
Use live action in the showcategory.
Let's think about that.

Speaker 1 (01:33:23):
I mean, that's just not my specialization so it
would be useless to me.
Hmm, I wish Gundam Se seed hadbetter world building because
it's like a gundam like.
There's a few gundam serieswhere you're like all right,
especially the ones that arelike side stories of like we
need to set up a politicalintertwined war immediately very
mixed results, on which gundamseries act like.
Gundam wing has truly terribleworld building.

(01:33:45):
I didn't realize until Ire-watched it, like last year,
where it's like none of thefactions in the world make
actual logical sense and thenthey're like yeah, we're going
to unite to the world governmentbecause this one rich guy told
us to, I guess, and they keeptalking about conflicts around
the world and never named them.
Hmm.

(01:34:05):
And then Double O's like alienssomehow, and I'm like thanks 00.

Speaker 2 (01:34:17):
Oh hmm, Show with good If I had to go live action.

Speaker 1 (01:34:21):
I'd probably put Stargate SG-1 on there.
So each week, week, I go to analien planet, but then it all
pieces together coherently.
After six seasons I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:34:45):
Okay, so I I don't love the Isekai genre for the
most part, but I did ratherenjoy the wrong way to use
healing magic.
Okay, I mean a lot of you cansay I love to borrow settings

(01:35:08):
but well, yeah, but the part ofthe world building is that slow
roll of like you know, oh,people have magic, and then
you're focusing on this guy'smagic and then, once you focus
on him for a while, then theykind of show other people's
types of magic and they, theyshow him going out into the wild

(01:35:30):
, doing wilderness training anddifferent animals, and it's a
nice slow roll that is kind ofscenic at the same time, and I
think that is one way ofeffective world building.
Is that slow, scenic, likeFreerun?

(01:35:53):
Freerun's so good, but Freerunis really good, that's true.
Maybe I should just say Freerun, because Freerun is probably
the second best option.

Speaker 1 (01:36:03):
Fair enough, I want to go sci-fi or fantasy, or try
and mix it up.
Man, though, like Freerun, doessuch a good job because it's
the only one that shows beforeand after snapshots of each area
, which is such a uniqueapproach to world building

(01:36:25):
embodiment of that slow roll,scenic world building where
these concepts are just beingintroduced really slowly and you
don't think you're evenlearning anything and then
suddenly it all comes together.

Speaker 2 (01:36:36):
you know, and I do feel like the wrong way to use
healing magic is anotherreasonable example.

Speaker 1 (01:36:42):
Now we want to go in a weird direction.
You know what would be kind ofan interesting one, samurai
Champloo, although in a weirddirection.
You know what would be kind ofan interesting one, samurai
Samplew, although that one'slike it's not so much filling
out a world so much as fillingout a toad Like I'd probably
give that one more for a vibestudy than a world building
study.
Ghost in the Shell's prettysolid world building.
If you want to just do theopposite and throw someone in

(01:37:04):
head first into a brick wall,the opposite and throw someone
in headfirst into a brick wall.

Speaker 2 (01:37:10):
They're like, okay, so what's our next category?
Animation comics Video game.
Video game for world building.

Speaker 1 (01:37:18):
So the answer I picked and this time I'm being
less of a bastard because it'snot objectively the best one,
it's just one I really enjoyedis I gave them Fire Emblem
Awakening Not.
Fire Emblem Awakening.
Sorry, I gave them Fire Emblemand the Sacred Stones.

Speaker 2 (01:37:39):
Why specifically Fire Emblem and the Sacred Stones?

Speaker 1 (01:37:42):
Logistics more than anything.
So the Game Boy Advance FireEmblems are simply shorter and
easier to play.

Speaker 2 (01:37:49):
Okay, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:37:50):
And any given Fire Emblem where it starts with your
character, a banished royalty.
You meet people along the wayand, through your support
conversations, learn more of theworld.
Every Fire Emblem follows thatstructure.
For the most part of you find aprince or princess and you're
given like your nation's beinginvaded for a reason Right.
And then you have to work andmeet people from the various

(01:38:11):
nations to build up and asyou're meeting them you're
learning their customs.
For pure worldbuilding it wasprobably actually either Radiant
Dawn or Awakening.
I give first place becauseAwakening has that sick time
skip where your kids come backfrom the future.
Yeah, okay, or the SuperNintendo one's really good for
that too of you literally travelhas that sick time skip where
your kids come back from thefuture, yeah, okay, or the super
nintendo one's really good forthat too of you literally travel
across the continent, but Idon't think fire emblem yeah,

(01:38:35):
people other than me would belike this is the best world
building.
And my second place one isfinal fantasy 10 specifically.
I like it's world building.
Okay.
Because Bob Fancy tends a lovestory and your character is the
summoned ghost of a footballplayer who ends up on this

(01:38:56):
continent.
And he's not the amnesiaprotagonist, which is such a
shorthand for world building.
Instead he's semi-ecocide.
He's time travel, ekosai, wherehe gets back to his hometown
and it's just destroyed Becausehe got pulled from the
apocalypse.
But the quest is you're on thisjourney.

(01:39:18):
It's almost Freeran-like, wheremost of what you learn about the
world is through your partymembers being casually racist or
talking about how their brotherdied in the attack or how one
of your party members wasactually engaged to another
party member first brother, andthen they have awkwardness
because that brother died on amission same with the other
brother.
It's like a lot of the like,locations and things are being

(01:39:40):
taught to you through thecharacters, interactions, like
you see people racist to thefuzzy blue guy on your squad,
and that's how you learn aboutthe fuzzy blue people, right?
So it's more my vein of worldbuilding where fall fantasy 7
just throwing crazy shit at youfor four discs straight.
Why is it a city?

(01:40:00):
Why is it cyberpunk?
Why does the city build a tm?
We siphoning the play the age,ancient alien creature.
Final Fantasy 7 was like,written by like the Boreto
author.
I swear.

Speaker 2 (01:40:15):
Well, so I uh keeping on theme with time travel,
chrono Trigger also is a prettysolid world building, because it
is really interesting to see.

Speaker 1 (01:40:27):
That is the game I should have given them.
You win that one.
Like objectively, you're right,nice, I can win at least one
category.
I thought about it.
The reason I gave them FireEmblem, not Chrono Trigger, is
literally time to beat.

Speaker 2 (01:40:41):
That's true, especially seeing as there's so
many different endings.

Speaker 1 (01:40:44):
But it should have been.
You're right, it should havebeen Chrono Trigger and we might
do this as a full episode topiclater, but that was our short
question.
So what I should add to thehomework I gave them is I've
already given them Full MetalAlchemist, avatar and Fire
Emblem and, if I'm followingyour list, I should give them
Free Rin World Trigger.

(01:41:05):
Free Rin World Trigger.

Speaker 2 (01:41:10):
Up to the Exam and Up to the Exam Chrono.
Trigger.
Yeah, alright, those are allpretty solid world-building
options.

Speaker 1 (01:41:20):
Agree, I wish I could recommend One Piece to people.
I wish that was possible, butit's not.
It simply isn't.
Also, I have to say Zelda OOTbest world building on the N64,
but that bar is on the floor,yeah, just non-existent, like

(01:41:45):
world building on the.

Speaker 2 (01:41:46):
N it just feels unfair as a category.
But with that, I guess, unlessthere's another random question.

Speaker 1 (01:42:04):
Uh, yeah, but this is coming from me to you, ooh,
okay, have a question for you iswhere would you take somebody
on a second date?

Speaker 2 (01:42:18):
where would I take somebody on a second date?

Speaker 1 (01:42:21):
ask it for no particular reason, huh okay, um
since you seemingly won and gotfurther in relationships than I
have.

Speaker 2 (01:42:33):
You're currently winning laughing, laughing um,
well, see my, my fiance waspretty easy, uh, because she
like, really likes movies.
So going to see a movie wasalways a viable option.

(01:42:53):
Going to movies is actually oneof my least favorite forms of
dates because it's notparticularly interactive.
But for a second date, I don'tknow.

Speaker 1 (01:43:11):
I mean, I guess it really depends what kind of
vibes you're going for, but Imean, I'm sure you've got like a
plethora of like thememini-golf courses that you could
find, which is why I can't giveyou hints or info, because I
kind of want to know what youcome up with in a vacuum.

Speaker 2 (01:43:26):
Well, I was thinking, like I say, some sort of theme,
mini golf, if you can find atheme that's like on point for
their tastes.

Speaker 1 (01:43:35):
But then it's just mini golf.
It's a pretty solid one.
And our last random question,and then we'll wrap up this
episode what is the weirdestthing you've ever Googled?

Speaker 2 (01:43:49):
The weirdest thing I've ever Googled the weirdest
thing I've ever Googled.

Speaker 1 (01:43:54):
So for me I don't know if this is going to count
because it's kind of on brandfor me.
I'm going to go with.
What are the exact damagenumber calculations in Pokemon
Red for Hit Race?

Speaker 2 (01:44:09):
But that's not really that weird for me, that's just
the kind of thing I'd look up.
I mean, that's just a specificthing to look up, that's true.

Speaker 1 (01:44:20):
I mean recently, it was probably what material was
made of the mask that peoplewear when clapped to the ground
for radiation therapy.
Yet again, not weird in thecontext of being me.

Speaker 2 (01:44:37):
Right, right, that would be a pretty weird search.
Now see, the thing is like D&Dand other creative endeavors
similarly in creative endeavorsdoes bring up some very odd
questions.
I don't know that I've everactually like had to Google them
, but it's like I watched avideo where it was this DM

(01:45:03):
they're at.
They called into the office atwork and they're like yeah, why
did you Google?
How many children does it taketo fill whatever space or
something?
It's like I've never personallylooked up weird D&D stuff like
that to get specific answers,but D&D related queries get very

(01:45:27):
bizarre answers, but dndrelated queries get very bizarre
.

Speaker 1 (01:45:33):
Oh yeah, like it's kind of funny as my brain's like
more going to mundane things.
I've searched for dnd like whatis the process to becoming an
older man?
I needed to know this, it cameup.
Or what are the dimensions of astone boat to successfully
float?
Definitely look that up.

Speaker 2 (01:45:55):
Oh, the fact that it could actually work.

Speaker 1 (01:46:02):
I don't know what that one for my answer is.
What are the?
Could a stone boat actuallyfloat with these dimensions?
Hmm, yes, yes, it can.
Much to the terror of catfolk.
Much to the terror of catfolk.
Actually, this is a weird one.

(01:46:22):
This is probably moretraditional.
What they're asking for forthis question Would pickle beets
blend in with beef and chiliand go unnoticed.
Oh yeah, that's pretty weird.
I had pickled beets and didn'thave enough beef.
I was trying to see if I couldturn the pickled beets into more
beef.
I think the actual search wascan I turn pickled beets into

(01:46:45):
more beef?

Speaker 2 (01:46:47):
Well, I mean, if we're going food related, the
peanut butter ramen burgers thatwe tried to make, that was
searching up the recipe for thatand then it's like they try to
tell us that we need to make itin a ramekin, and it's like
we're like pretending to bebroke college students, because
we weren't actually collegestudents at the time, but we

(01:47:07):
were, for all intents andpurposes, broke college students
.

Speaker 1 (01:47:10):
Like, just because we worked at Pizzeria doesn't mean
we weren't early 20s splittingan apartment, effectively being
broke college students.

Speaker 2 (01:47:18):
And they expect us to have a ramekin.

Speaker 1 (01:47:21):
I mean I do now as an actual broke college student,
which is funny.
I absolutely have ramekins andarugula and springform pans now,
but like Although, to be fair,unrelated to all things and
probably a waste of like ourepisode count.

(01:47:41):
So I was looking for pizzaplaces that had Canada Day deals
, right, okay.
Or just any place that hadCanada Day deals because
everyone's patri, or just anyplace that had Canada Day deals
because everyone's patrioticduring election season, but no
one's giving me discounts today,okay.
And the pizza place I orderedfrom, specifically because what
they named is their Canada Daysale oh, it was a reverse tariff

(01:48:01):
sale where you got 25% off yourorder to reverse the tariffs,
and the concept that, a they'rereminding people that this trade
war is happening and, bcelebrating that we're not going
to take it or gonna like thefact they're like I'm giving you
a discount because thesetariffs are bullshit, was just
such a like.
I wasn't expecting such valuesout of a pizzeria like this

(01:48:26):
redacted pizzeria I didn't thinkwere cool like that.
Huh.

Speaker 2 (01:48:32):
You know, one of these days we're gonna find a
place that's literally calledRedacted Pizzeria.

Speaker 1 (01:48:37):
No, no, we're gonna open a place called Redacted
Pizzeria.
Think big Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:48:43):
See, I don't know if I want to open the Pizzeria.
I'd rather open the pizzeria,I'd rather open the amazing
steakhouse.

Speaker 1 (01:48:48):
I'm just saying redacted pizzeria, pizza arcade.
Redacted steakhouse, but wehaven't been using that for 100
plus episodes, so it loses thebit.
Why would I ever open abusiness for you that didn't
help some kind of bit?
Why would I ever open abusiness?

Speaker 2 (01:49:08):
for you.
That didn't help some kind ofbit.
Well, maybe because of theawesome adjustable labyrinth in
the basement.

Speaker 1 (01:49:14):
No, no, I'm on board with that one for a different
bit.
Like I'm not saying no to thisamazing steakhouse, I'm saying
that the redacted steakhousewouldn't, help us, because
there's no bit there, although Ithink I have actually mentioned
a redacted steakhouse a fewtimes, but it would not be a
good advertisement.

Speaker 2 (01:49:33):
Yeah, that's true.
You definitely have mentionedredacted steakhouses before.

Speaker 1 (01:49:38):
Yeah, I think my exact words is steak as a food
is a scam and you shouldn't payfor price for it.
Not the best advertisement formy own steakhouse.
Like you go into the menu boardit's like not worth it,
absolutely not worth it.
You're being scabbed andthere's a different tiers of
cuts of meat and like in thebeing scabbed tier it's like

(01:50:03):
Kobe beef tomahawk chickenscabbed here and it's like Kobe
beef tomahawk chicken and likean asterisk under Kobe beef it
just says some ground beef wefound on sale in like brackets
under it.
The steak is so smooth it'slike someone patted ground beef

(01:50:24):
into a steak shape and grilledit.
It just melts in your mouth.
With that one I ended ourepisode.
Thanks for tuning in.
Watch Richard and Carl presentDeep Space and Dragons
Occasionally try and push stuff.
We also have a second podcastgoing where we play Daggerheart.

(01:50:46):
Check that out.
Just Google.
Richard and Carl playDaggerheart Googleard
occasionally and you canprobably find my home address.
Love you, bye, bye.

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