October 21, 2025 • 55 mins
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You're the vulgarian, you fuck!
Tracie expected to enjoy revisiting the classic comedy A Fish Called Wanda, but she forgot just how much of this film's humor was derived from cringe comedy (John Cleese speaking Russian in his underwear when a large family stumbles upon him) and punching down (the dubious "comedy" of making fun of Michael Palin's stutter), both of which made the film painful to rewatch.
Wanda has some truly interesting cultural commentary about the differences between Americans and Britons, and Cleese's screenplay offers some brilliantly funny wordplay and storytelling that allowed Kevin Kline to ham up his role as Otto, the ridiculous epitome of American masculinity, all the way to an Oscar. But the well-crafted fiction comes with a side of homophobia and ableism that's just hard to watch in 2025--although the comedy beats are just as masterful as they were originally.
Throw on some headphones, make sure you're on the correct side of the road, and take a listen!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:24):
There's other hijinks that I forgot.
Jamie Lee Cardis gives thisdelivers this beautiful line
when yet again Otto says, Don'tcall me stupid, and she goes,
You're right.
Calling you stupid would be aninsult to stupid people, which
is maybe the only time I laughedin watching it.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's just
(00:45):
up culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
I'm Tracy Guy Decker, and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts About
Stupid Shit.
(01:06):
Because pop culture is stillculture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1988 classic comedy A FishCalled Wanda with my sister,
Emily Guy Birkin, and with you.
Let's dive in.
Emma I know you've seen thismovie because I'm fairly certain
(01:26):
we watched it together.
I feel like our grandma Ruthietook us to see it in the
theater.
Oh wow.
I didn't remember that, but Ibelieve it.
But yeah, tell me, what's thefurniture of your mind around
Fish Called Wanda?
What's in the brain?
So snapshots mostly.
SPEAKER_01 (01:41):
I remember I didn't like that Michael Palin's
character kept being made fun offor the fact that he was
distraught over the death of thedogs that he was inadvertently
causing.
I really didn't like that.
Like it was supposed to be thisdark humor, and I just didn't
find that funny.
(02:01):
I also didn't find it funny, hisstutter to be funny.
So that is the biggest thing Iremember from the film was like
how much I disliked that plotpoint.
I remember Kevin Klein characterbeing like a really brash
(02:21):
American who is like veryprototypical American.
And I remember the only thingthat I can recall laughing about
is that every time, because it'sset in England, every time Kevin
Klein is driving, he's always onthe wrong side of the road.
(02:41):
And every time he's goingasshole as he's on the as he's
driving, because he's on thewrong side, but he thinks
everyone else is.
And that through line was justfunny.
I remember that Jamie Lee Curtisis in it and that she falls in
love with John Cleese.
And I remember she and KevinKlein are con artists, and
(03:02):
that's kind of about it.
That's oh, and John Cleese islike a barrister.
And I don't really remember whatthe like the Slister barrister
differences.
He's a lawyer, he's the kind whowears the wigs.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But that's about all I got.
So tell me, why are we talkingabout a fish called Wanda today?
SPEAKER_00 (03:24):
It was on the list, and I really kind of just wanted
a comedy.
I was hoping for something likeI was hoping for just like a fun
romp.
I was like remembering thingsthat I remembered enjoying.
And so I just threw it on there.
The stakes weren't super highfor me, but boy was I mistaken
about this being a fun romp.
Wow.
It was hard for me to getthrough it, to be honest.
(03:45):
I this, if you love this movie,this is gonna be an unpopular
episode.
Just heads up, listener.
This is not on the top of mylist.
So I really just wanted acomedy.
And this was one that I rememberliking, or I remember dad liking
it actually.
I sort of remember dad laughing.
And it is a very popular comedy.
(04:06):
Like Kevin Klein won an Oscarfor Best Supporting Actor for
this film, and the direction andthe screenplay were both
nominated for Oscars in 1989.
So it's it was very popular.
And according to the lore, asI'm reading, like some dude,
like an audiologist, literallydied laughing at this movie.
(04:29):
Some screening because his heartrate got out of control and he
had a heart attack.
SPEAKER_01 (04:35):
So that's that's a Monty Python skit.
That's an actual Monty Pythonskit where they in World War II
they had the the weaponizedhumor.
SPEAKER_00 (04:47):
I read it in two separate places.
So maybe the same people weremistaken, but I like more than
one person claims that somebodydied at a screening as a result
of this, or as a result of thismovie.
So I don't know.
And they one person evenidentified which scene it was.
So I don't know.
I didn't fact check it.
I'm just telling you what I'veread on the interest.
(05:09):
I it didn't, it certainly didn'tmake me laugh hard enough to
die.
unknown (05:14):
Excuse me.
SPEAKER_00 (05:16):
So let me give you a couple postcards from the
destination, and then I'll tryand give you a synopsis.
So there's a lot in this movie.
John Cleese wrote thescreenplay, and I think there's
a lot in this movie, hismeditations on sort of the
difference between American andBritish culture, which I think
is actually kind of interesting.
It also, though, is ableist andhomophobic.
(05:37):
Michael Palin wears blackfacebriefly, which is really
uncomfortable.
I think there's I want to talk alittle bit about comedy and
what's funny, uh, because Ithink your recollection jibes
with my experience of watchingit last night.
Also, your recollection of Kleinas sort of the prototypical
(05:57):
American, like in terms ofCleese's kind of meditation on
American versus British culture,is sort of interesting.
Jamie Lee Curtis is if this werea noir film, she would be the
femme fatale.
Like she uses her sexuality as apart of it's one of the tools,
it's the primary tool in hertoolbox.
(06:18):
And the film does not judge herfor it.
So I think that's sort ofinteresting, and I want to dig
into that a little bit.
I want to talk aboutintellectualism and sort of
whether or not it's a goodthing, according to the movie
makers, according to Kleese.
I want to talk about, I mean,you named in your recollection
that Jamie Lucartis' characterfalls in love with Kleese's
(06:41):
character.
I think that's accurate from thefilm, but I do want to talk
about what is love and affectionfor this character based on what
we see from her.
And then I want to name thatlike this film, though it's live
action, is a cartoon in manyways.
Like the things that happen andthe ways that people behave and
even the way that like thecinematography is used is sort
(07:04):
of cartoonish, which is part ofits comedic effect and part of
how we know it is comedy, eventhough like dark things are
happening.
So I just want to talk aboutthat as like the medium.
So those are some of the thingsI'm gonna talk about.
Let me see if I can give you asynopsis.
I actually have the Wikipediaup.
I haven't done this in a minutebecause again, since I wasn't
(07:27):
enjoying it, I'm not sure I'mgonna remember all of the
pieces, but I want to make sureI hit the highlights.
SPEAKER_01 (07:33):
Since it's based on since Jimmy Lee Curtis and Kevin
Klein were con artists, likethat, there is a little bit of
complexity to the story, isn'tthere?
With that, I don't know.
That's I'm just assuming.
SPEAKER_00 (07:44):
You mean with her affection?
No, no, no.
Just with the, I mean, justbecause Oh, with double
crossing.
Double crossing, and yes,there's a lot of double crossing
in this movie.
So we open up, we are introducedto all of our characters.
So we see John Cleason Court inhis goofy wig, which everybody
wears.
It's not just him.
I know, I know in Britain theyall wear those goofy wigs.
SPEAKER_01 (08:05):
They're weird.
Like I'm big on like longtraditions, but come on, people.
SPEAKER_00 (08:13):
So we in these short vignettes, we meet each of our
players.
So we've got John Cleese'sArchie Leach, named after Carrie
Grant's birth name,interestingly.
We have George Thomason playedby Tom Georgson, which has to
have been how the name thecharacter's name came to me.
SPEAKER_01 (08:33):
Was Cleese just being like lazy at that point in
his writing?
SPEAKER_00 (08:37):
I mean, I obviously it tickled him that Tom
Georgeson would play George.
SPEAKER_01 (08:41):
And that Archie Leach was okay.
SPEAKER_00 (08:43):
All right, continue.
Then so George's like right-handman is Ken Pyle, played by
Michael Palin, who weimmediately learn is an animal
lover and also has a prettysevere stutter.
His girlfriend is WandaGerschwitz, played by Jamie Lee
(09:03):
Curtis.
Um whose girlfriend?
Sorry, George's George'sgirlfriend.
Okay.
George's girlfriend is Wanda.
Ken also has the hots for Wandabecause he's named his favorite
fish in the tank, Wanda.
Wanda brings in her brother.
(09:24):
I'm putting quotes aroundbrother, Otto, played by Kevin
Klein, into a heist that Georgeis planning.
They're stealing diamonds there,and they give us the details.
There are like five of them, andeach one is worth four million.
So there's it's a$20 millionheist, and they're only going
(09:45):
after the diamonds.
Otto is a weapons expert.
We learn fairly quickly he isnot, in fact, her brother.
She's sleeping with him too.
And he's a little jealous ofthis con that she's George's
girlfriend.
They do the heist, it goes over,they get the jewels.
We see them like ignoring otherjewelry.
They get the diamonds, theyescape.
(10:07):
On their escape, they almost hitthis old lady walking three
little dogs, three littleYorkes, and she like yells at
them and she makes eye contactwith George.
But they escape, they like, it'sthere's all these like costume
changes and car changes, likethey got it all planned out.
They put the loot in a safe in agarage, and then they go their
(10:28):
separate ways and say they'llmeet up in in 48 hours or
something.
Otto and Wanda call the cops andanonymously tip them off to the
fact that George was the one whodid the heist.
He gets arrested immediately.
They go back to the garage, Ottobreaks into the safe, the
diamonds are gone.
We see in court when he's likethe initial, I don't know what
(10:51):
it's called, arraignment, theinitial court date, he sneaks a
key.
Key who?
Sorry, George sneaks a key toKen.
It's a safe deposit key.
Wanda witnesses Ken hiding thiskey in the little treasure chest
inside his fish tank.
(11:12):
She takes it and puts it insideher locket.
And so now she decides she needsto seduce Archie, who is
George's lawyer, because shefigures that George will tell
Archie where the loot actuallyis.
So she's not sure how she'sgonna seduce him, but that's
what she's gonna do.
(11:32):
She ends up like coming up tohim on the street and like she
puts on her glasses so she lookssmarter, I guess.
Claims to be a law student fromAmerica who is a big fan of his
work in the courtroom and asksfor his autograph.
And like he tells her latershe's the most beautiful girl
(11:54):
he's ever seen.
So he like doesn't buy it, butbuys it because she's gorgeous
and coming on to him.
So shenanigans ensue.
We learn that the old lady withthe three dogs, with the three
dogs who made eye contact withGeorge as they were escaping,
(12:14):
she actually picks him out of alineup.
So she's the only actualevidence against him.
George asks Ken to kill her.
So meanwhile, Kevin Klein's Ottosort of suspects that Ken knows
more than he's letting on.
So he chases after Ken and comeson to him and says, Otto says
(12:39):
that Otto is gay and comes on toKen like really strongly and
obnoxiously to shock him andlike I don't know, get him off
balance or whatever.
Meanwhile, Otto, from the momenthe met Ken has been making fun
of the stutter and continues to,even as he's like coming on to
him, supposedly hitting on him.
(13:01):
And Otto realizes that Ken hasbeen asked to kill this old
lady.
He says, There's no way you cando it.
I bet you a pound that you can'tdo it.
And Ken takes that bet.
And Otto says something like,You're so, you know, I don't
remember what the insult is thatOtto levels at Ken, but Ken says
it's better than buggeringpeople and then runs away
(13:25):
looking over his shoulder.
As Otto says, I love watchingyour ass as you walk away.
I mean, it's just really gross,gross.
Yeah.
Really gross.
So then there's a through line.
Other things are happeningmeanwhile, but a through line
that you remember clearly whereKen is trying to off the old
lady and ends up killing each ofthe dogs inadvertently.
(13:46):
The first one, he has a attackdog that he likes to gives the
attack dog something of the oldladies to smell and like sicks
the dog on her, but the big dogpicks up one of the little dogs
and runs off with it and killsit.
And then so he kills each of thedogs accidentally as he's trying
to kill the lady.
One of the middle ones, he's in,he's dressed as a Rastafarian
(14:09):
and wearing black face anddriving a truck that ends up
running over the dog when he'strying to hit the lady.
And then it's each of the dog'sdeaths are followed by like a
religious burial service in thepet cemetery that Ken goes to
crying.
And he's getting more and morebeaten up.
Like the mean dog scratches andbites him, and he's messes up
his eye in the car accident.
(14:32):
Eventually, the final attempt tokill her, which kills her final
dog, actually, she has a heartattack as a result.
So that's that through line.
Simultaneous with that, Wanda istrying to is seducing Archie.
She shows up at his house andhe's married, isn't he?
He's married, but it's very it'sclearly a loveless marriage.
(14:55):
So we have this scene that'slike a cut back and forth
between Otto and Wanda, andArchie and his wife Wendy.
And Otto and Wanda are havingsex in this cartoonish way, and
Archie and Wendy are undressingthemselves and getting in like
(15:17):
very perfunctorily and likegetting into separate beds.
And Wanda has a thing forlanguages.
It's the only reason, it seems,that she's with Otto.
Although we saw actually when heopened the safe, she was ready
to knock him out.
And so she was already, we knowshe's not, she was ready to
double cross him.
(15:38):
So she's seducing him.
She ends up at his house toseduce him, and somehow her
necklace falls off.
And Otto, who is very jealous,has shown up and like
interrupts.
Well, the wife comes home and helike thinks he's saving things
and he's which tells this Otto.
Sorry.
Otto thinks he's saving thesituation because the wife comes
(16:00):
home and is like, whose car isthat blocking the drive?
And he's and he like steps out.
Archie doesn't even know he'sthere, steps out from behind a
door and says, It's mine.
And he says that he's a CIAagent and they have a KGB
defector in a safe house nearby,and he's like keeping people
informed.
And the wife, Wendy, is like,Why are you telling people?
(16:21):
You're not supposed to tellpeople that.
And he's like, Well, youobviously don't know anything
about the intelligence communitybecause it's a double cross or I
don't know, whatever he says.
And she says, Actually, myfather was in the Secret
Service, and I know you don't dothis unless you're blah, blah,
blah, stupid.
And he's don't call me stupidagain.
This is a thing that he does.
Don't call me stupid.
So anyway, Otto and Wendy,Wanda, excuse me, Otto and Wanda
(16:45):
manage to get out of Archie andWendy's house, but the necklace
has been left behind.
She wants it back.
It's got the key in it,remember.
She's the only one who knows thekey is in it.
Wendy picks it up off the floorand thinks that Archie has
bought it for her and she lovesit.
It's got her initial on it, andit's she tells him it's the
nicest present you've evergotten me.
So he tries to get it back.
He tells Wendy that it wasactually they shouldn't have
(17:09):
sold it to him because the oldlady didn't want to give it up.
I don't know.
He tells her story, she doesn'tbuy it.
So then he buys a separate, likea tennis bracelet in exchange,
she doesn't want it.
He tries to offer the tennisbracelet to Wanda in exchange,
she doesn't want it.
So he tries to burgle his ownhouse to explain it's missing
(17:31):
because he needs to get it backto Wanda's made it clear she
can't have sex with him unlesshe gets her necklace back.
So he tries to like burgle hisown house.
Otto has come to his house toapologize to him and doesn't
realize it's him and likeattacks him and knocks him out,
then realizes it's him.
(17:51):
He gets really mad.
He's like, Why would you burgleyour own house, you stupid?
And then he kicks the Klee whilehe's like laying there.
Oh, it's awful.
It's so hard to watch.
Kleese returns the necklace thenext time he sees Wanda, and
she's delighted the key is stillthere.
(18:12):
George tells Ken where thediamonds actually are.
Otto realizes that Ken knows andtortures Ken to get the
information.
Basically, he ties him up, hesticks food up his nose and in
his mouth so he can't breathe,and then eats his fish live in
front of him.
Oh god.
(18:32):
Oh, I remember that.
To try and get the information.
Meanwhile, remember, Ken hasthis terrible stutter, and the
name is like the Katoctin Towersor something.
It's not, that's not quite it,but something like that with
lots of like hard k sounds thatare difficult for this stutterer
to get out.
In court at the actual trial,John Kleese's Archie thinks that
(18:54):
George didn't do it.
He doesn't know that he actuallydid it.
And he knows that Wanda is thealibi.
So she's on the stand.
She needs George to go toprison.
She doesn't want to be saddledwith this dude.
And now that she knows where thediamonds are and she's got the
key, she's gonna get rid of him.
So she changes her testimony toincriminate him, which leads to
(19:17):
Archie actually sort of slippingand calling her first by her
first name and then Darling.
Wendy is in the gallerylistening, and she had overheard
Otto apologizing and saying, Idon't even care if you fuck her.
Fuck her blue.
And so Wendy's like sort ofsuspicious.
And then when Archie calls WandaDarling, she knows what's going
(19:37):
on.
So she basically tells him hecan shove this marriage up his
bum or something like that.
He goes to talk to George andrealizes that Wanda and Otto
were both there for the heistand are all in on it.
So he tries to figure out wherethe diamonds are from George.
He's not sharing.
So realizing like his career andhis marriage are over, he
(19:59):
decides to like fuck it and tryand run away with Wanda.
So he sees her fleeing thecourtroom and hustles her into
his car, and they go back toGeorge's place where she also
was staying to try and get theinformation from Ken.
Otto has the information becausehe tortured Ken.
(20:20):
He ends up stealing Archie's carwith Wanda still in it.
They end up at the airport whereeverybody confronts everybody.
I mean, it's five minutes of somuch action.
Wanda knocks Otto out and lockshim in a broom closet.
He shoots his way out andconfronts Archie and almost
kills Archie, but then getsdistracted until Ken runs him
(20:43):
over with a steamroller into wetcement.
Archie manages to get onto theplane and sits with Wanda, and
they are going to Rio deJaneiro.
And like actually, Otto'scement-encrusted face shows up
next to the window, and he sortof falls off the plane and does
the asshole that you rememberfrom whenever he would do the
(21:06):
driving on the wrong side of theroad.
One important thing that Iforgot: I did say that Wanda's
super into foreign languages andOtto speaks Italian, though I
question if he's actuallyspeaking Italian.
I don't speak Italian, but atone point when they're in bed in
the sort of cartoonish scene, hejust says Benito Mussolini,
which like, what the fuck?
(21:28):
And she asks Archie if he speaksItalian at what point when
they're like together for atryst, and he says he does, and
he speaks a little Italian.
He says, But that's not myfavorite language.
What about Russian?
And they start speaking inRussian, which totally gets her
hot as well.
So he has confessed his love.
Archie has confessed his love toWanda.
They're gonna go off to Riotogether.
(21:49):
They have the diamonds, and wesee some final credit card, like
cards in the credits, likeepilogue that say that Wanda and
Archie were married in Rio andhad 17 children and founded a
leper colony.
Otto moved to South Africa wherehe became the Minister of
(22:10):
Justice.
Okay.
And Ken went on to become themaster of ceremonies at
SeaWorld.
Oh, I forgot that aftersteamrolling, and presumably he
thought killing Otto in revenge,you know, as revenge for eating
the fish, Ken lost his stutteraltogether.
(22:30):
In fact, he's like, I don'tstutter anymore, you know.
So there's other hijinks that Iforgot.
Jamie Lee Cardis gives this,delivers this beautiful line
when yet again Otto says, Don'tcall me stupid.
And she goes, You're right.
Calling you stupid would be aninsult to stupid people, which
is maybe the only time I laughedin watching it.
(22:52):
Apparently, the lore is the dudewho died as a result of laughing
at the torture scene when KevinKlein was shoving French fries
up Michael Palin's nose.
So I honestly had to like pauseit and take breaks.
It was so hard for me to watch.
There's a scene where Wanda isoff, like getting herself ready,
(23:15):
I guess, for sex and says, getundressed.
And so John Cleese likeundresses while he's speaking
Russian, and we watch himundress, and he's like a million
feet tall.
And so he's all gangly andstuff, and he's like dancing
around, and just as he takes hisunderwear off and is like
dancing around with it on hishead, a large British family
walks in the door.
So it's like that likesecondhand embarrassment that I
(23:39):
hate so much.
Yeah.
Okay.
So let me start with Beckdel,because that's easy.
It does pass Beckdel becauseArchie's wife, Wendy, and
daughter Portia, talk to oneanother on multiple occasions
about things other than him.
(24:00):
They're short scenes and they'renot actually like meaningful to
the plot, but it does happen.
Okay.
How old is Portia?
Teenager.
SPEAKER_01 (24:09):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (24:09):
Like 16, 17, I think we're meant to think.
Which honestly, that makes mefeel even grosser.
SPEAKER_01 (24:17):
I know that it's not intended to be like a good
marriage, but like anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (24:24):
Yeah.
So I'm gonna start with what'sgood or what's interesting to me
about this film.
So as I said, Cleese wrote thisfilm, and there is I embedded in
the screenplay is a meditationfrom him on what the problems
(24:46):
are with British culture and theways in which American culture
is superior, but also the waysthe like the inverse.
So at one point he actuallysays, Archie actually says to
Wanda, Do you have any idea howhard it is to be English?
We walk around terrified all thetime.
And the things he's terrified ofare being embarrassed of saying,
(25:09):
How's your wife?
and hearing we separatedyesterday, or you know, dancing
around the other.
SPEAKER_01 (25:16):
If you're gonna put your underwear on your head to
find to turn around and see alarge family seeing you.
SPEAKER_00 (25:21):
Yeah.
But I mean, the things he namedto her were much lower stakes,
embarrassment, even than that.
And he said, That's why we'reall dead.
All my friends are dead.
I'm dead, but not you.
You're alive.
That's what he says to Wanda.
And so that feels like animportant kind of it's a
revealing moment of what Cleesethinks about sort of the culture
(25:43):
that is his.
At the same time, Otto, Klein'sOtto, is, as you named, a
prototypical American and he isa buffoon.
He may be alive, but he's anunsophisticated idiot who is
dangerous, but truly deeplydangerous.
(26:04):
And in fact, at one point, Otto,in one of the airport
confrontations, Archie haspicked up the gun and is
training it at Otto.
And Otto says, You don't havethe guts to shoot me.
And he says, Why don't you fightme like a man?
Like God intended, or somethinglike that.
And so Archie puts down the gunand puts up his fists, and
(26:24):
they're circling each other withfists.
And he says, Archie says, Iboxed at Oxford, and Otto picks
up the gun, trains it in him,and says, Well, I killed for the
CIA.
And so there's this like Kleece,the screenwriter, has critique
of British culture, and thereare ways in which American
culture is more alive, but alsohas no integrity and is like
(26:48):
unnecessarily violent andvulgar, deeply vulgar.
SPEAKER_01 (26:53):
Well, and there's also the critique of American
masculinity versus Britishmasculinity, and the critique of
British femininity versusAmerican femininity.
SPEAKER_00 (27:03):
Thank you.
Yes, that is a I love that as anuance on this because Wendy is
just constantly annoyed.
Like when we first meet her,she's sitting on a lawn chair,
like reading a magazine in hersunglasses, and he comes up and
he says, How was your day?
And she complains about how shehad to have lunch with
(27:24):
so-and-so, and all she does iscomplain.
And he says, I won my case.
And she says, This is the firstmoment I've had to myself all
day.
And he says, Well, can I makeyou some tea?
So she's just sour.
She's just sour.
She's smart, she's very smart,but she's sour.
(27:46):
And I so I think that you'reright, there is definitely a
gendered component to thecritique as well.
And that actually feltinteresting to me in this mixed
cast.
And like George, when Wandagives her actually false
testimony that incriminates him,he loses his mind.
(28:08):
You bitch, you fucking bitch.
And he like jumps out of thelittle, I don't know what to
call it, the little stand wherehe is and gonna attack her.
And it takes four, five, tenpeople to restrain him and
protect her from him.
So it's not the case that Britsin this movie are incapable of
violence, but there is, and it'scalled out explicitly.
(28:32):
Archie says, You really are aVulgarian, aren't you?
To which Otto says, You're theVulgarian, you fuck.
Right.
That is very, very well written.
So, you know, there's just thepictures of the two cultures,
and you're right, themasculinity and femininity from
the two cultures is, I think,really interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (28:54):
I would like to tease out something a little bit
there too, just that in that,because Wanda is like Otto in
that she does not play fair.
She double crosses, but she usessexuality, not violence.
That's right.
And John Cleese as the authorwrites that as being alive in a
(29:21):
way that is admirable orsomething to something that at
least Archie wants.
Yes.
And yes.
So Archie is dead but plays fairand is brought to life by
someone who double crosses usingsexuality.
(29:42):
Wendy, the wife, is dead,intelligent, plays fair and
sour.
And just I'm just thinkingthere's this interesting
meditation on there's a kind offetishization of American women
there.
SPEAKER_00 (29:57):
Well, in particular, since Cleese literally
self-inserts as the person whoends up with him, all of the
male characters, because Ken hasthe hots for her too, and she
knows it.
At one point, he's gonna tellher something and he's stuck in
a stutter.
So she kisses him.
And that kiss calms him enoughthat he can get his words out.
(30:18):
And she says to him, if itweren't for George, like she
allows him to believe, sheallows Ken.
Tend to believe that she wouldbe with him if she could.
So sh yes, I think you areexactly right.
It is something to be, I don'tknow if admired is the right
word, but at least is wanted.
(30:39):
And specifically for Cleese,wanted, I don't know if I want
to use the word possession, butat least he wants to be the
object of it.
The object of that alivesexuality, even if it's
dangerous.
Or maybe because it's dangerous,maybe that's what makes it
alive.
SPEAKER_01 (30:58):
Yeah.
Well, and it's like you one ofthe things that you said, and I
can't remember if it was beforewe started recording or in your
synopsis, that the movie doesnot judge her for using her
sexuality as part of hertoolbox.
SPEAKER_00 (31:10):
Yeah, I don't, I do not, I am not left with like,
because Otto, who gets jealous,is such a buffoon.
And the way in which he exhibitshis jealousy is so absurd and
reprehensible that you can'thelp but think she's in the
(31:30):
right.
And like at one, they're in thecar at one point.
He's like, Well, well, what areyou gonna, what are you gonna
do?
Like, is are you gonna let himtouch your tits?
And she's like, Yeah, probably$20 million.
It's worth some tit touching orsomething like it's like that.
I don't, that's not verbatim.
And he was like, Well, whatabout penetration?
And he is meant to appearridiculous, whereas she is
(31:51):
getting the job done with thetools in her toolbox.
SPEAKER_01 (31:54):
She's being professional.
SPEAKER_00 (31:56):
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
And I like, here's the thingthat because it's a self-insert,
maybe it's more complicated.
Like, I genuinely don't know howto feel about her affection for
Archie.
I believe she has it.
I believe it's by the end, it isnot part of the con.
(32:16):
In the car on the way from thecourt, when he's like, let's, he
had already said let's run awaytogether at one point.
So now he's like, let's go getthe diamonds.
And she had, he had broken upwith her.
He had called her and said it'sover.
I'm sorry.
And we see him crying after, orlike a single tear, not like
weeping.
And when he says, Let's run awaytogether, and she's like, But
(32:37):
you broke up with me, he said,No, I fell in love with you, but
I wasn't rich enough, remember?
Because at one point whilethey're together, she asks if
he's rich, and he says, No, themoney's on my wife's.
And so, and she's hides herdisappointment, but we see her
hiding it.
So theoretically, Archie saw itas well.
So when he says that, I wasn'trich enough, like she like
(33:01):
softens and like slides over onthe bench seat to sit next to
him while he's driving.
So there is a there, the moviedefinitely wants us to believe
that there is genuine affectionfrom this woman who uses sex and
affection to get what she wants.
And layered on to the otherthings that we've talked about
today, about a sense of likeAmerican femininity and a sense
(33:25):
of like being alive but withoutintegrity or not playing by the
rules or being dead, but playingby the rules.
Like, sort of, I think Cleesehas a hierarchy or the movie has
a hierarchy of what in thatmatrix of what is better, but
I'm not a hundred percent surekind of how it shakes out.
(33:46):
We're meant to believe hisaffection for her is real.
He says he's in love with herrepeatedly because she makes him
feel alive again.
And that's I think meant to behis response at least is meant
to be real.
The fact that it happenedthrough not real because she was
conning him.
SPEAKER_01 (34:02):
It was a performance on her part.
SPEAKER_00 (34:04):
It was, but then because he fell in love with
her, it stopped beingperformance.
Like the actual like narrativeof that affection is muddy for
me.
And I'm not sure, I don't know.
I at the end of the day,honestly, I just feel like
they're all kind ofreprehensible, and I just yeah,
sure, okay, you love each other.
(34:26):
Like in some ways, she's themost honest because she's like,
it's all about the money and herown comfort, and like she'll do
what she has to, yeah, yeah.
And she gets pleasure where shecan.
Yeah, right.
Like, that's why she she knewshe was gonna have to sleep with
him, but if he speaks Italian,maybe it'll be fun for her too.
SPEAKER_01 (34:48):
Yeah, like look, this is the job, but you know,
if the job can be fun, great.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
It this brings up for me, wetend to we have this thing in
society where we judge women whoget power by being the wife of a
man in power.
Right.
I've been thinking about thislately because of Erica Kirk
(35:09):
taking over Turning Points USA.
And people are judging her forthat.
And I'm not gonna get into thepolitics of what they do, but
the thing is, that was the waythat women had.
That was the path women had toget to power.
And using sexuality and usinglooks was the path that women
had, and pretending affectionwas the path that women had to
(35:31):
get to power.
And I I felt into this as well.
I judged women for flirting.
Well, you were you were taughtto, I mean, yeah.
Whereas, like, I think it'sabsolutely reasonable to be
like, no, she's beingprofessional.
SPEAKER_00 (35:48):
It's one of the tools.
Why would you not use it?
SPEAKER_01 (35:50):
Whereas Otto is being unprofessional.
Completely unprofessional.
But he's the worst.
He's the worst.
And actually, so one of thethings you talked about, I think
the homophobia and the ableismin this, which is like that
shows to like within thecharacter that the
unprofessionalism of Klein'scharacter, but also let's talk
(36:11):
about it as Cleese as thescreenwriter.
SPEAKER_00 (36:14):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, like, I wonder if thiswas some early clues to who
Cleese is.
I mean, he now lives on TurfIsland.
I've heard someone's call itthat way.
He joins his fellow Brit J.K.
Rowling in sort of attackingtrans folks and gender
non-conforming folks.
SPEAKER_01 (36:34):
He also says, like, you can't have comedy anymore,
which is just no, you can'tpaint himself as a victim
anymore.
SPEAKER_00 (36:40):
He paints himself as a victim as a result.
And I think we wanted to believethe broadest we I was 12, but
the broadest we, we wanted tobelieve that Cleese and the
whole Python gang were usingtheir serious comedy skills to
take on the powerful.
But I think actually they wereusing their comedy skills, or at
(37:01):
least Cleese was, to just makefun of people he didn't like.
And the, I mean, it isinteresting that most of the
ableism and homophobia comethrough the this buffoonish
American character that is worthnoting.
And we're still meant to laughat it.
Cleese, Cleese's Archie getsvery gets frustrated with Palin,
(37:24):
Michael Palin, Ken's stutter atthe end when he's trying to
figure out he he keeps saying,like, no hurry, take your time.
No hurry.
Like he gets frustrated andeventually he's like, just spin
it out, man, and immediatelyapologizes.
And so in that, I feel likeCleese had his cake and ate it
too.
Yes.
Because he made his charactersort of know that he shouldn't
(37:46):
make fun of the man with thestutter, but still made us, the
audience, laugh at the man withthe stutter.
And it really felt at him.
I think one might try to arguethat we're laughing at Klein's
auto's buffoonery andassholishness, but it was still
through making fun of the manwith the stutter.
(38:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And yeah, it just it's reallyugly.
I find nothing funny about itnow.
And I don't know, maybe I'muptight, but I'd prefer to think
of it as empathy.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (38:20):
Yeah.
It well, there's I had a like ateeny bit of a stammer as a kid.
Just a teeny bit of one.
Sometimes.
I just remember not liking theway Palin's character was
treated.
And I remember hating the way hewas treated about like how it
(38:41):
was funny that he wasbrokenhearted over the dogs and
his fish.
SPEAKER_00 (38:44):
Yeah, it was we're meant to see it as a weakness.
The other characters do.
And I think the audience ismeant to see it as a weakness as
well.
It that gets exploited by Ottowhen he eats the fish.
SPEAKER_01 (38:53):
I just I couldn't understand that.
And I I I think the dogs weresupposed to be like yappy dogs
that, oh, like nobody likesthose kinds of dogs.
But I'm like, they're dogs.
Yeah.
They were little yorkies.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (39:04):
But yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:05):
The homophobia, I I really want to spend a little
time on that just because I hadyou look up before we started
recording when Graham Chapmanpassed away, who's the first of
the pythons to pass away, he wasgay.
And I can remember John Cleesegave a eulogy that is quite
funny and actually quitebeautiful.
And it was at a, I can'tremember like Westminster Abbey
(39:28):
or some some major cathedral inLondon, where he said a bad word
where he's like, no one wouldhave expected that.
And he truly loved Chapman.
But I can remember him giving aninterview at some point, I think
it was after Chapman died,saying that when Chapman came
out to the pythons, it justbewildered Cleese.
(39:49):
And he said, it would have beenlike if Michael Palin came to me
and told me he was Chinese.
SPEAKER_00 (39:55):
Yeah, we talked about this when we did the
episode about the Holy Grail.
SPEAKER_01 (39:58):
Yeah.
And that's I remember the firsttime I I heard that interview
and it like it didn't sit wellwith me.
And I I've never been able toarticulate exactly why.
And then some of it is justbecause it's so othered.
That there's like the otheringof, you know, if you came to me
and told me you were Chinese,when I've always assumed you
were normal, quote unquote.
(40:21):
And I know that this is aprivileged white dude trying to
grapple with something hedoesn't understand in someone he
loves.
Uh-huh.
And there you gotta give somegrace for that.
But in this one year, so thismovie came out in '88.
Graham Chapman died in 1989.
Right.
So, and after Chapman came out,which would have been in the
(40:43):
70s, so he'd been out for about10 years, writing this kind of
homophobia, and Michael Palin,who, as I understand it, I saw
someone on social media at somepoint saying, Michael Palin's
the only python who wasn'ttripped over his own dick at
some point in the 12th 2000s.
Like it makes me sad that likehe also is participating in this
(41:07):
homophobia.
I'm sad that Kevin Klein isparticipating in this
homophobia.
SPEAKER_00 (41:12):
Yeah.
And I mean, again, as I saidearlier, like, I think one could
argue that by putting it in themouth of this reprehensible
character, I think one couldargue that there was a critique
of it potentially.
But again, it's like saying,like, I would never tell a fat
joke and then like the one thatso-and-so said when he said.
(41:36):
So that you get to like distanceyourself from it while still
telling the fat joke.
That's I so I think one couldmake something of an argument
that putting it in the mouth ofKevin Klein's auto like puts a
grain of salt in there.
But it's still there.
It's still there.
The homophobia is still there.
SPEAKER_01 (41:55):
And it's it's just frustrating because we know that
John Cleese had someone to whomhe was very close, yeah who
could have told him how hurtfulit was.
SPEAKER_00 (42:10):
Yeah.
I mean, it was the late 80s, andalso even though it would be
like he came to me and said hewas Chinese.
It's sort of like, yeah, I lovedhim anyway.
Yeah.
Which, like, as soon as thatanyway comes into the sentence,
it brings the homophobia withit.
Yeah.
And that is the way I perceivedCleese talking about Chapman.
Yeah.
I loved him anyway.
SPEAKER_01 (42:29):
Yeah, it's well, he's one of the good ones.
That's yeah, I have experiencedthat where like someone where if
I'm one of the few Jews thatsomeone knows, I recognize that
I'm in the like, oh, you're oneof the good ones.
I'm in that paddock.
SPEAKER_00 (42:44):
Right, right, right.
I want to talk about one finalthing before I kind of wrap up.
And that is mixed up with theAmerican-British thing is sort
of complicated feelings aboutintellectualism, right?
Because Otto is a fakeintellectual.
Like when we first meet him,he's fallen asleep reading
Nietzsche's Beyond Good andEvil.
(43:06):
He quotes Nietzsche all thetime, but it gets it all wrong.
He gets it all wrong.
Like at one point, Jamie LeeCurtis tells him all the
mistakes he's made and they'reridiculous.
And she also like laughs aboutit with Cleese's Archie at one
point.
And like there are things likeAristotle isn't actually from
Minnesota, or I don't rememberthat maybe isn't it, but it's
stuff like that.
Well, I remember she wonderedwhy they named Yeah.
(43:28):
Okay, go ahead.
Otto wondered why Archie andWendy named their daughter after
a car because her name isPorsche.
And there are other things likethat.
They're just ridiculous.
And so there's this making funof wannabe intellectuals.
The actual intellectuals aremiserable because they're
(43:50):
British.
I mean, that that does seem tobe Cleese's hazis.
Wanda is not an intellectual.
She can play one on TV, butshe's not.
Like when she tells Otto thatthose things were mistakes, she
says, those were all mistakes.
(44:10):
I looked them up.
So there's the implication thatit's she didn't just know.
Although when she's laughingwith Archie, it is the
implication that she she justknows.
So it's, I mean, she is such acon artist, it's hard to know
what's real.
But I do, I am left with theimpression that she is smart but
not intellectual, although shecan play one on TV.
(44:31):
So, like where Khalise lands onthat, like, is or where the
movie lands on that is likeinteresting and complicated.
And I think I just wanted toname that because it, with this
thread of auto quoting Nietzscheall the time, it feels
significant to the kind ofconstellation of what it means
(44:55):
to be British and American andsmart and following the rules
and not following the rules andlike all of those things feel
significant.
So I just wanted to bring thatforward before I close the
conversation.
SPEAKER_01 (45:09):
That does kind of fit with the sense that I can
see where British might see aBritish person, a British
intellectual might see Americansas writ large, as pretenders.
SPEAKER_00 (45:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (45:25):
So all right.
Because we don't wear weirdcurly wigs to go to court.
We do not have a sense oftradition.
unknown (45:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (45:38):
Bulgarians, all of us.
You're the Vulgarian, you fuck.
He's right.
SPEAKER_00 (45:44):
That is, I will say, that is brilliant writing.
No, I mean the screenplay wasnominated for an Oscar, so
there's there John Cleese is abrilliant comedian in a lot of
ways.
SPEAKER_01 (45:59):
He just, I just don't think he's
self-reflective.
SPEAKER_00 (46:03):
Well, yes.
Also, I think this is much ofthe comedy that he finds very
funny, I don't find funny atall.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think that obviously a lotof people do.
It did really well at the boxoffice.
Like people really enjoyed it.
Like Klein's manic performanceis beloved.
I find it difficult to watch.
(46:24):
So I think there's something toothere that we could probably do
a whole podcast on comedy, likea whole show about what is funny
and what in the receiver ofcomedy is activated to make it
laugh.
I mean, we've talked aboutsubverting expectations and
things, but there's subvertingexpectations in ways that disarm
and make me laugh.
(46:44):
And there's subvertingexpectations in ways that make
me absolutely cringe and want toturn the TV off.
SPEAKER_01 (46:48):
So, like 25 years ago, there was a study on the
jokes that made specificcultures laugh.
We've talked about that inanother episode too.
Yeah.
And the things that like makeAmericans laugh is feeling
superior.
SPEAKER_00 (47:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (47:05):
Yeah.
Um, which is Klein's like wholecharacter in this film.
Because we have a coupleminutes, I'm going to tell you
my favorite uh finding was thatthe joke that made the French
laugh most was a dog goes into atelegraph office and says, I'd
like to send a telegram.
I want to say woof, woof, woof,woof, woof.
And the telegraph operator says,Well, you know, for the same
(47:25):
amount of money, you can sendthree more woofs.
And the dog says, Well, thatwould be silly.
And that I think thatencapsulates the French right
there.
SPEAKER_00 (47:37):
Yeah.
I think it was our airplaneepisode where we talked about
that in the past.
So, listener, if you want tohear about what other
nationalities think is funny,you should go listen to the
airplane episode.
All right.
So this film passes Beckdellbecause Wendy and Portia talk
about things besides Archie.
There's a long kind ofmeditation or kind of
(48:00):
exploration of the differencesbetween American and British
culture.
Cleese seems to think that ingeneral, Brits are rule
following and dead.
And Americans are con artists,but somehow alive.
He, and you brought in thenuance on that, that he and the
movie seem to think that conartists and alive, if also
(48:25):
female and sexy, is cool.
But con artists and alive butviolent and wannabe
intellectuals like Otto, so themasculine version of this is not
so cool.
And all like part and parcelwith that is like sort of
assumptions and judgments aboutsexuality, about violence, about
(48:48):
masculinity, about femininity.
It's all wrapped up in this kindof juxtaposition of these two
cultures through this screwballcomedy, which is ableist and
homophobic, especially throughthe person of Otto, played by
Kevin Klein, who is ableist andhomophobic in the direction of
(49:09):
the same character, which isMichael Palin's Ken, who has a
severe stutter that Otto makesfun of repeatedly and literally
tortures him with, and thencomes on to him and like
pretends to be gay in order tomake Ken uncomfortable.
(49:30):
We talked about this ablist,homophobic, brash, would-be
intellectual who's actuallycalling him stupid would be an
insult to stupid people, as insome ways a prototypical
American.
He's gun happy, he thinks he'smuch smarter than he is, he's
prone to violence.
When he gets agitated, he getsmore violent.
(49:52):
He drives on the wrong side ofthe road and then blames other
people for the accidents and isa true vulgarian.
SPEAKER_01 (50:02):
Honestly, it feels kind of prescient right now.
SPEAKER_00 (50:06):
One sort of remaining question mark for me
that I think is answered to acertain extent by the fact that
Khalise is literal inself-insert in the person of
Archie is where Jimmy Curtis'sWanda affection actually lies
and how it is that she fell inlove with Archie.
(50:27):
It seems to be just because hefell in love with her first.
And there's a certain degree, Imean, this woman who, as we
named, uses that tool, that veryuseful and powerful tool as a
professional in her toolbox,that tool being her own
sexuality and sex.
And she has a good time if shecan, but that's not what it's
(50:48):
about.
She's doing what she needs toget the job done because there's
$20 million on the line.
And she doesn't muddy the workwith feelings, right?
I mean, at one point she says,she they lie, and I said they
lie and say that she and Ottoare siblings, but at one point
she says to him, even if youwere my brother, I'd want to
fuck you.
But then she also is gonna knockhim out and take the diamonds
(51:10):
and leave him behind.
So she doesn't get tripped up bystupid things like feelings, and
yet she falls for Archie.
So that that remains sort oflike a question.
And right, or does she?
I mean, we are meant, I think weare meant to believe she
actually does.
But I wonder if someone besidesJohn Cleese were writing this
(51:33):
and Archie weren't John Cleesehimself, if that's how we were
would be meant to read it.
SPEAKER_01 (51:38):
And also like he loves her if he genuinely loves
her instead of just wanting topossess her.
Yeah.
Which that would make adifference for someone who has
been who consistently uses hersexuality as a tool.
SPEAKER_00 (51:54):
Using, yeah, she uses wanting to be possessed as
a way to get things for herself.
Yes, that's a good point.
So we talked about to thehomophobia and the ableism in
here potentially as a clue towhat we now see as Cleese's like
intolerance and meanness.
You brought Graham Chapman intothe conversation, and we sort of
landed on the fact that, yeah,Cleese loved Chapman anyway.
(52:18):
And as soon as that anyway comesinto the sentence, then it
brings homophobia with it.
So there's a certain degree towhich looking backward, it's it
makes sense that homophobia isthere, despite the fact that
Graham Chapman was a very closefriend of Cleese's and was gay
and Cleese knew.
(52:39):
Let me see.
SPEAKER_01 (52:40):
I feel like I'm forgetting something.
We talked about how this movie,even though it's live action, is
a cartoon.
SPEAKER_00 (52:46):
Yeah, it really is.
And that shows up especially infor me, it showed up especially
in the sex scene between Ottoand Wanda, where like when Klein
actually climaxes, when Ottoclimaxes, he sort of stops,
almost looks at the camera, hiseyes cross, and then he kind of
like melts.
Like, oh, it's ridiculous.
(53:07):
It is so cartoony.
And as they're having sex, likeshe's on the bottom, her legs
are straight up in a V withknees locked.
Like it's ridiculous and veryunsexy.
So that was the place where tome, I was like, oh, this is a
cartoon.
Yeah.
But throughout, there's a degreeto which it's a cartoon.
(53:28):
And even in the cinematography,like everybody wears muted
colors except for Jamie LeeCurtis, who wears these very
bright colors and stuff likethat.
So even like where the camerais, like angled, like to make
different, to make Otto feelmore dominant or to make Ken
feel more childlike, things likethat.
So yeah, thank you for namingthat.
(53:49):
Which makes sense with Kleece asa a python.
The Monty Python was cartoonywith live action.
So yeah.
So and just sorry if this is oneof your favorite films.
Like I will never see this filmagain.
It was just not funny to me atall.
There was like maybe two momentsthat I smiled.
(54:11):
And otherwise, I had to kind ofcringe and grit my teeth and
keep going.
So but what are you gonna bringme next week, Em?
SPEAKER_01 (54:18):
My Em bring my deep thoughts on weekend at Bernie's.
SPEAKER_00 (54:25):
Yeah, me neither.
I'm a little bit worried thatit's gonna be another fish
called one.
We'll see.
We'll see.
We'll see.
See you then.
Bye.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
(54:46):
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompotech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
(55:08):
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember, popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
There's other hijinks that I forgot.
Jamie Lee Cardis gives thisdelivers this beautiful line
when yet again Otto says, Don'tcall me stupid, and she goes,
You're right.
Calling you stupid would be aninsult to stupid people, which
is maybe the only time I laughedin watching it.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's just
(00:45):
up culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
I'm Tracy Guy Decker, and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts About
Stupid Shit.
(01:06):
Because pop culture is stillculture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1988 classic comedy A FishCalled Wanda with my sister,
Emily Guy Birkin, and with you.
Let's dive in.
Emma I know you've seen thismovie because I'm fairly certain
(01:26):
we watched it together.
I feel like our grandma Ruthietook us to see it in the
theater.
Oh wow.
I didn't remember that, but Ibelieve it.
But yeah, tell me, what's thefurniture of your mind around
Fish Called Wanda?
What's in the brain?
So snapshots mostly.
SPEAKER_01 (01:41):
I remember I didn't like that Michael Palin's
character kept being made fun offor the fact that he was
distraught over the death of thedogs that he was inadvertently
causing.
I really didn't like that.
Like it was supposed to be thisdark humor, and I just didn't
find that funny.
(02:01):
I also didn't find it funny, hisstutter to be funny.
So that is the biggest thing Iremember from the film was like
how much I disliked that plotpoint.
I remember Kevin Klein characterbeing like a really brash
(02:21):
American who is like veryprototypical American.
And I remember the only thingthat I can recall laughing about
is that every time, because it'sset in England, every time Kevin
Klein is driving, he's always onthe wrong side of the road.
(02:41):
And every time he's goingasshole as he's on the as he's
driving, because he's on thewrong side, but he thinks
everyone else is.
And that through line was justfunny.
I remember that Jamie Lee Curtisis in it and that she falls in
love with John Cleese.
And I remember she and KevinKlein are con artists, and
(03:02):
that's kind of about it.
That's oh, and John Cleese islike a barrister.
And I don't really remember whatthe like the Slister barrister
differences.
He's a lawyer, he's the kind whowears the wigs.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But that's about all I got.
So tell me, why are we talkingabout a fish called Wanda today?
SPEAKER_00 (03:24):
It was on the list, and I really kind of just wanted
a comedy.
I was hoping for something likeI was hoping for just like a fun
romp.
I was like remembering thingsthat I remembered enjoying.
And so I just threw it on there.
The stakes weren't super highfor me, but boy was I mistaken
about this being a fun romp.
Wow.
It was hard for me to getthrough it, to be honest.
(03:45):
I this, if you love this movie,this is gonna be an unpopular
episode.
Just heads up, listener.
This is not on the top of mylist.
So I really just wanted acomedy.
And this was one that I rememberliking, or I remember dad liking
it actually.
I sort of remember dad laughing.
And it is a very popular comedy.
(04:06):
Like Kevin Klein won an Oscarfor Best Supporting Actor for
this film, and the direction andthe screenplay were both
nominated for Oscars in 1989.
So it's it was very popular.
And according to the lore, asI'm reading, like some dude,
like an audiologist, literallydied laughing at this movie.
(04:29):
Some screening because his heartrate got out of control and he
had a heart attack.
SPEAKER_01 (04:35):
So that's that's a Monty Python skit.
That's an actual Monty Pythonskit where they in World War II
they had the the weaponizedhumor.
SPEAKER_00 (04:47):
I read it in two separate places.
So maybe the same people weremistaken, but I like more than
one person claims that somebodydied at a screening as a result
of this, or as a result of thismovie.
So I don't know.
And they one person evenidentified which scene it was.
So I don't know.
I didn't fact check it.
I'm just telling you what I'veread on the interest.
(05:09):
I it didn't, it certainly didn'tmake me laugh hard enough to
die.
unknown (05:14):
Excuse me.
SPEAKER_00 (05:16):
So let me give you a couple postcards from the
destination, and then I'll tryand give you a synopsis.
So there's a lot in this movie.
John Cleese wrote thescreenplay, and I think there's
a lot in this movie, hismeditations on sort of the
difference between American andBritish culture, which I think
is actually kind of interesting.
It also, though, is ableist andhomophobic.
(05:37):
Michael Palin wears blackfacebriefly, which is really
uncomfortable.
I think there's I want to talk alittle bit about comedy and
what's funny, uh, because Ithink your recollection jibes
with my experience of watchingit last night.
Also, your recollection of Kleinas sort of the prototypical
(05:57):
American, like in terms ofCleese's kind of meditation on
American versus British culture,is sort of interesting.
Jamie Lee Curtis is if this werea noir film, she would be the
femme fatale.
Like she uses her sexuality as apart of it's one of the tools,
it's the primary tool in hertoolbox.
(06:18):
And the film does not judge herfor it.
So I think that's sort ofinteresting, and I want to dig
into that a little bit.
I want to talk aboutintellectualism and sort of
whether or not it's a goodthing, according to the movie
makers, according to Kleese.
I want to talk about, I mean,you named in your recollection
that Jamie Lucartis' characterfalls in love with Kleese's
(06:41):
character.
I think that's accurate from thefilm, but I do want to talk
about what is love and affectionfor this character based on what
we see from her.
And then I want to name thatlike this film, though it's live
action, is a cartoon in manyways.
Like the things that happen andthe ways that people behave and
even the way that like thecinematography is used is sort
(07:04):
of cartoonish, which is part ofits comedic effect and part of
how we know it is comedy, eventhough like dark things are
happening.
So I just want to talk aboutthat as like the medium.
So those are some of the thingsI'm gonna talk about.
Let me see if I can give you asynopsis.
I actually have the Wikipediaup.
I haven't done this in a minutebecause again, since I wasn't
(07:27):
enjoying it, I'm not sure I'mgonna remember all of the
pieces, but I want to make sureI hit the highlights.
SPEAKER_01 (07:33):
Since it's based on since Jimmy Lee Curtis and Kevin
Klein were con artists, likethat, there is a little bit of
complexity to the story, isn'tthere?
With that, I don't know.
That's I'm just assuming.
SPEAKER_00 (07:44):
You mean with her affection?
No, no, no.
Just with the, I mean, justbecause Oh, with double
crossing.
Double crossing, and yes,there's a lot of double crossing
in this movie.
So we open up, we are introducedto all of our characters.
So we see John Cleason Court inhis goofy wig, which everybody
wears.
It's not just him.
I know, I know in Britain theyall wear those goofy wigs.
SPEAKER_01 (08:05):
They're weird.
Like I'm big on like longtraditions, but come on, people.
SPEAKER_00 (08:13):
So we in these short vignettes, we meet each of our
players.
So we've got John Cleese'sArchie Leach, named after Carrie
Grant's birth name,interestingly.
We have George Thomason playedby Tom Georgson, which has to
have been how the name thecharacter's name came to me.
SPEAKER_01 (08:33):
Was Cleese just being like lazy at that point in
his writing?
SPEAKER_00 (08:37):
I mean, I obviously it tickled him that Tom
Georgeson would play George.
SPEAKER_01 (08:41):
And that Archie Leach was okay.
SPEAKER_00 (08:43):
All right, continue.
Then so George's like right-handman is Ken Pyle, played by
Michael Palin, who weimmediately learn is an animal
lover and also has a prettysevere stutter.
His girlfriend is WandaGerschwitz, played by Jamie Lee
(09:03):
Curtis.
Um whose girlfriend?
Sorry, George's George'sgirlfriend.
Okay.
George's girlfriend is Wanda.
Ken also has the hots for Wandabecause he's named his favorite
fish in the tank, Wanda.
Wanda brings in her brother.
(09:24):
I'm putting quotes aroundbrother, Otto, played by Kevin
Klein, into a heist that Georgeis planning.
They're stealing diamonds there,and they give us the details.
There are like five of them, andeach one is worth four million.
So there's it's a$20 millionheist, and they're only going
(09:45):
after the diamonds.
Otto is a weapons expert.
We learn fairly quickly he isnot, in fact, her brother.
She's sleeping with him too.
And he's a little jealous ofthis con that she's George's
girlfriend.
They do the heist, it goes over,they get the jewels.
We see them like ignoring otherjewelry.
They get the diamonds, theyescape.
(10:07):
On their escape, they almost hitthis old lady walking three
little dogs, three littleYorkes, and she like yells at
them and she makes eye contactwith George.
But they escape, they like, it'sthere's all these like costume
changes and car changes, likethey got it all planned out.
They put the loot in a safe in agarage, and then they go their
(10:28):
separate ways and say they'llmeet up in in 48 hours or
something.
Otto and Wanda call the cops andanonymously tip them off to the
fact that George was the one whodid the heist.
He gets arrested immediately.
They go back to the garage, Ottobreaks into the safe, the
diamonds are gone.
We see in court when he's likethe initial, I don't know what
(10:51):
it's called, arraignment, theinitial court date, he sneaks a
key.
Key who?
Sorry, George sneaks a key toKen.
It's a safe deposit key.
Wanda witnesses Ken hiding thiskey in the little treasure chest
inside his fish tank.
(11:12):
She takes it and puts it insideher locket.
And so now she decides she needsto seduce Archie, who is
George's lawyer, because shefigures that George will tell
Archie where the loot actuallyis.
So she's not sure how she'sgonna seduce him, but that's
what she's gonna do.
(11:32):
She ends up like coming up tohim on the street and like she
puts on her glasses so she lookssmarter, I guess.
Claims to be a law student fromAmerica who is a big fan of his
work in the courtroom and asksfor his autograph.
And like he tells her latershe's the most beautiful girl
(11:54):
he's ever seen.
So he like doesn't buy it, butbuys it because she's gorgeous
and coming on to him.
So shenanigans ensue.
We learn that the old lady withthe three dogs, with the three
dogs who made eye contact withGeorge as they were escaping,
(12:14):
she actually picks him out of alineup.
So she's the only actualevidence against him.
George asks Ken to kill her.
So meanwhile, Kevin Klein's Ottosort of suspects that Ken knows
more than he's letting on.
So he chases after Ken and comeson to him and says, Otto says
(12:39):
that Otto is gay and comes on toKen like really strongly and
obnoxiously to shock him andlike I don't know, get him off
balance or whatever.
Meanwhile, Otto, from the momenthe met Ken has been making fun
of the stutter and continues to,even as he's like coming on to
him, supposedly hitting on him.
(13:01):
And Otto realizes that Ken hasbeen asked to kill this old
lady.
He says, There's no way you cando it.
I bet you a pound that you can'tdo it.
And Ken takes that bet.
And Otto says something like,You're so, you know, I don't
remember what the insult is thatOtto levels at Ken, but Ken says
it's better than buggeringpeople and then runs away
(13:25):
looking over his shoulder.
As Otto says, I love watchingyour ass as you walk away.
I mean, it's just really gross,gross.
Yeah.
Really gross.
So then there's a through line.
Other things are happeningmeanwhile, but a through line
that you remember clearly whereKen is trying to off the old
lady and ends up killing each ofthe dogs inadvertently.
(13:46):
The first one, he has a attackdog that he likes to gives the
attack dog something of the oldladies to smell and like sicks
the dog on her, but the big dogpicks up one of the little dogs
and runs off with it and killsit.
And then so he kills each of thedogs accidentally as he's trying
to kill the lady.
One of the middle ones, he's in,he's dressed as a Rastafarian
(14:09):
and wearing black face anddriving a truck that ends up
running over the dog when he'strying to hit the lady.
And then it's each of the dog'sdeaths are followed by like a
religious burial service in thepet cemetery that Ken goes to
crying.
And he's getting more and morebeaten up.
Like the mean dog scratches andbites him, and he's messes up
his eye in the car accident.
(14:32):
Eventually, the final attempt tokill her, which kills her final
dog, actually, she has a heartattack as a result.
So that's that through line.
Simultaneous with that, Wanda istrying to is seducing Archie.
She shows up at his house andhe's married, isn't he?
He's married, but it's very it'sclearly a loveless marriage.
(14:55):
So we have this scene that'slike a cut back and forth
between Otto and Wanda, andArchie and his wife Wendy.
And Otto and Wanda are havingsex in this cartoonish way, and
Archie and Wendy are undressingthemselves and getting in like
(15:17):
very perfunctorily and likegetting into separate beds.
And Wanda has a thing forlanguages.
It's the only reason, it seems,that she's with Otto.
Although we saw actually when heopened the safe, she was ready
to knock him out.
And so she was already, we knowshe's not, she was ready to
double cross him.
(15:38):
So she's seducing him.
She ends up at his house toseduce him, and somehow her
necklace falls off.
And Otto, who is very jealous,has shown up and like
interrupts.
Well, the wife comes home and helike thinks he's saving things
and he's which tells this Otto.
Sorry.
Otto thinks he's saving thesituation because the wife comes
(16:00):
home and is like, whose car isthat blocking the drive?
And he's and he like steps out.
Archie doesn't even know he'sthere, steps out from behind a
door and says, It's mine.
And he says that he's a CIAagent and they have a KGB
defector in a safe house nearby,and he's like keeping people
informed.
And the wife, Wendy, is like,Why are you telling people?
(16:21):
You're not supposed to tellpeople that.
And he's like, Well, youobviously don't know anything
about the intelligence communitybecause it's a double cross or I
don't know, whatever he says.
And she says, Actually, myfather was in the Secret
Service, and I know you don't dothis unless you're blah, blah,
blah, stupid.
And he's don't call me stupidagain.
This is a thing that he does.
Don't call me stupid.
So anyway, Otto and Wendy,Wanda, excuse me, Otto and Wanda
(16:45):
manage to get out of Archie andWendy's house, but the necklace
has been left behind.
She wants it back.
It's got the key in it,remember.
She's the only one who knows thekey is in it.
Wendy picks it up off the floorand thinks that Archie has
bought it for her and she lovesit.
It's got her initial on it, andit's she tells him it's the
nicest present you've evergotten me.
So he tries to get it back.
He tells Wendy that it wasactually they shouldn't have
(17:09):
sold it to him because the oldlady didn't want to give it up.
I don't know.
He tells her story, she doesn'tbuy it.
So then he buys a separate, likea tennis bracelet in exchange,
she doesn't want it.
He tries to offer the tennisbracelet to Wanda in exchange,
she doesn't want it.
So he tries to burgle his ownhouse to explain it's missing
(17:31):
because he needs to get it backto Wanda's made it clear she
can't have sex with him unlesshe gets her necklace back.
So he tries to like burgle hisown house.
Otto has come to his house toapologize to him and doesn't
realize it's him and likeattacks him and knocks him out,
then realizes it's him.
(17:51):
He gets really mad.
He's like, Why would you burgleyour own house, you stupid?
And then he kicks the Klee whilehe's like laying there.
Oh, it's awful.
It's so hard to watch.
Kleese returns the necklace thenext time he sees Wanda, and
she's delighted the key is stillthere.
(18:12):
George tells Ken where thediamonds actually are.
Otto realizes that Ken knows andtortures Ken to get the
information.
Basically, he ties him up, hesticks food up his nose and in
his mouth so he can't breathe,and then eats his fish live in
front of him.
Oh god.
(18:32):
Oh, I remember that.
To try and get the information.
Meanwhile, remember, Ken hasthis terrible stutter, and the
name is like the Katoctin Towersor something.
It's not, that's not quite it,but something like that with
lots of like hard k sounds thatare difficult for this stutterer
to get out.
In court at the actual trial,John Kleese's Archie thinks that
(18:54):
George didn't do it.
He doesn't know that he actuallydid it.
And he knows that Wanda is thealibi.
So she's on the stand.
She needs George to go toprison.
She doesn't want to be saddledwith this dude.
And now that she knows where thediamonds are and she's got the
key, she's gonna get rid of him.
So she changes her testimony toincriminate him, which leads to
(19:17):
Archie actually sort of slippingand calling her first by her
first name and then Darling.
Wendy is in the gallerylistening, and she had overheard
Otto apologizing and saying, Idon't even care if you fuck her.
Fuck her blue.
And so Wendy's like sort ofsuspicious.
And then when Archie calls WandaDarling, she knows what's going
(19:37):
on.
So she basically tells him hecan shove this marriage up his
bum or something like that.
He goes to talk to George andrealizes that Wanda and Otto
were both there for the heistand are all in on it.
So he tries to figure out wherethe diamonds are from George.
He's not sharing.
So realizing like his career andhis marriage are over, he
(19:59):
decides to like fuck it and tryand run away with Wanda.
So he sees her fleeing thecourtroom and hustles her into
his car, and they go back toGeorge's place where she also
was staying to try and get theinformation from Ken.
Otto has the information becausehe tortured Ken.
(20:20):
He ends up stealing Archie's carwith Wanda still in it.
They end up at the airport whereeverybody confronts everybody.
I mean, it's five minutes of somuch action.
Wanda knocks Otto out and lockshim in a broom closet.
He shoots his way out andconfronts Archie and almost
kills Archie, but then getsdistracted until Ken runs him
(20:43):
over with a steamroller into wetcement.
Archie manages to get onto theplane and sits with Wanda, and
they are going to Rio deJaneiro.
And like actually, Otto'scement-encrusted face shows up
next to the window, and he sortof falls off the plane and does
the asshole that you rememberfrom whenever he would do the
(21:06):
driving on the wrong side of theroad.
One important thing that Iforgot: I did say that Wanda's
super into foreign languages andOtto speaks Italian, though I
question if he's actuallyspeaking Italian.
I don't speak Italian, but atone point when they're in bed in
the sort of cartoonish scene, hejust says Benito Mussolini,
which like, what the fuck?
(21:28):
And she asks Archie if he speaksItalian at what point when
they're like together for atryst, and he says he does, and
he speaks a little Italian.
He says, But that's not myfavorite language.
What about Russian?
And they start speaking inRussian, which totally gets her
hot as well.
So he has confessed his love.
Archie has confessed his love toWanda.
They're gonna go off to Riotogether.
(21:49):
They have the diamonds, and wesee some final credit card, like
cards in the credits, likeepilogue that say that Wanda and
Archie were married in Rio andhad 17 children and founded a
leper colony.
Otto moved to South Africa wherehe became the Minister of
(22:10):
Justice.
Okay.
And Ken went on to become themaster of ceremonies at
SeaWorld.
Oh, I forgot that aftersteamrolling, and presumably he
thought killing Otto in revenge,you know, as revenge for eating
the fish, Ken lost his stutteraltogether.
(22:30):
In fact, he's like, I don'tstutter anymore, you know.
So there's other hijinks that Iforgot.
Jamie Lee Cardis gives this,delivers this beautiful line
when yet again Otto says, Don'tcall me stupid.
And she goes, You're right.
Calling you stupid would be aninsult to stupid people, which
is maybe the only time I laughedin watching it.
(22:52):
Apparently, the lore is the dudewho died as a result of laughing
at the torture scene when KevinKlein was shoving French fries
up Michael Palin's nose.
So I honestly had to like pauseit and take breaks.
It was so hard for me to watch.
There's a scene where Wanda isoff, like getting herself ready,
(23:15):
I guess, for sex and says, getundressed.
And so John Cleese likeundresses while he's speaking
Russian, and we watch himundress, and he's like a million
feet tall.
And so he's all gangly andstuff, and he's like dancing
around, and just as he takes hisunderwear off and is like
dancing around with it on hishead, a large British family
walks in the door.
So it's like that likesecondhand embarrassment that I
(23:39):
hate so much.
Yeah.
Okay.
So let me start with Beckdel,because that's easy.
It does pass Beckdel becauseArchie's wife, Wendy, and
daughter Portia, talk to oneanother on multiple occasions
about things other than him.
(24:00):
They're short scenes and they'renot actually like meaningful to
the plot, but it does happen.
Okay.
How old is Portia?
Teenager.
SPEAKER_01 (24:09):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (24:09):
Like 16, 17, I think we're meant to think.
Which honestly, that makes mefeel even grosser.
SPEAKER_01 (24:17):
I know that it's not intended to be like a good
marriage, but like anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (24:24):
Yeah.
So I'm gonna start with what'sgood or what's interesting to me
about this film.
So as I said, Cleese wrote thisfilm, and there is I embedded in
the screenplay is a meditationfrom him on what the problems
(24:46):
are with British culture and theways in which American culture
is superior, but also the waysthe like the inverse.
So at one point he actuallysays, Archie actually says to
Wanda, Do you have any idea howhard it is to be English?
We walk around terrified all thetime.
And the things he's terrified ofare being embarrassed of saying,
(25:09):
How's your wife?
and hearing we separatedyesterday, or you know, dancing
around the other.
SPEAKER_01 (25:16):
If you're gonna put your underwear on your head to
find to turn around and see alarge family seeing you.
SPEAKER_00 (25:21):
Yeah.
But I mean, the things he namedto her were much lower stakes,
embarrassment, even than that.
And he said, That's why we'reall dead.
All my friends are dead.
I'm dead, but not you.
You're alive.
That's what he says to Wanda.
And so that feels like animportant kind of it's a
revealing moment of what Cleesethinks about sort of the culture
(25:43):
that is his.
At the same time, Otto, Klein'sOtto, is, as you named, a
prototypical American and he isa buffoon.
He may be alive, but he's anunsophisticated idiot who is
dangerous, but truly deeplydangerous.
(26:04):
And in fact, at one point, Otto,in one of the airport
confrontations, Archie haspicked up the gun and is
training it at Otto.
And Otto says, You don't havethe guts to shoot me.
And he says, Why don't you fightme like a man?
Like God intended, or somethinglike that.
And so Archie puts down the gunand puts up his fists, and
(26:24):
they're circling each other withfists.
And he says, Archie says, Iboxed at Oxford, and Otto picks
up the gun, trains it in him,and says, Well, I killed for the
CIA.
And so there's this like Kleece,the screenwriter, has critique
of British culture, and thereare ways in which American
culture is more alive, but alsohas no integrity and is like
(26:48):
unnecessarily violent andvulgar, deeply vulgar.
SPEAKER_01 (26:53):
Well, and there's also the critique of American
masculinity versus Britishmasculinity, and the critique of
British femininity versusAmerican femininity.
SPEAKER_00 (27:03):
Thank you.
Yes, that is a I love that as anuance on this because Wendy is
just constantly annoyed.
Like when we first meet her,she's sitting on a lawn chair,
like reading a magazine in hersunglasses, and he comes up and
he says, How was your day?
And she complains about how shehad to have lunch with
(27:24):
so-and-so, and all she does iscomplain.
And he says, I won my case.
And she says, This is the firstmoment I've had to myself all
day.
And he says, Well, can I makeyou some tea?
So she's just sour.
She's just sour.
She's smart, she's very smart,but she's sour.
(27:46):
And I so I think that you'reright, there is definitely a
gendered component to thecritique as well.
And that actually feltinteresting to me in this mixed
cast.
And like George, when Wandagives her actually false
testimony that incriminates him,he loses his mind.
(28:08):
You bitch, you fucking bitch.
And he like jumps out of thelittle, I don't know what to
call it, the little stand wherehe is and gonna attack her.
And it takes four, five, tenpeople to restrain him and
protect her from him.
So it's not the case that Britsin this movie are incapable of
violence, but there is, and it'scalled out explicitly.
(28:32):
Archie says, You really are aVulgarian, aren't you?
To which Otto says, You're theVulgarian, you fuck.
Right.
That is very, very well written.
So, you know, there's just thepictures of the two cultures,
and you're right, themasculinity and femininity from
the two cultures is, I think,really interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (28:54):
I would like to tease out something a little bit
there too, just that in that,because Wanda is like Otto in
that she does not play fair.
She double crosses, but she usessexuality, not violence.
That's right.
And John Cleese as the authorwrites that as being alive in a
(29:21):
way that is admirable orsomething to something that at
least Archie wants.
Yes.
And yes.
So Archie is dead but plays fairand is brought to life by
someone who double crosses usingsexuality.
(29:42):
Wendy, the wife, is dead,intelligent, plays fair and
sour.
And just I'm just thinkingthere's this interesting
meditation on there's a kind offetishization of American women
there.
SPEAKER_00 (29:57):
Well, in particular, since Cleese literally
self-inserts as the person whoends up with him, all of the
male characters, because Ken hasthe hots for her too, and she
knows it.
At one point, he's gonna tellher something and he's stuck in
a stutter.
So she kisses him.
And that kiss calms him enoughthat he can get his words out.
(30:18):
And she says to him, if itweren't for George, like she
allows him to believe, sheallows Ken.
Tend to believe that she wouldbe with him if she could.
So sh yes, I think you areexactly right.
It is something to be, I don'tknow if admired is the right
word, but at least is wanted.
(30:39):
And specifically for Cleese,wanted, I don't know if I want
to use the word possession, butat least he wants to be the
object of it.
The object of that alivesexuality, even if it's
dangerous.
Or maybe because it's dangerous,maybe that's what makes it
alive.
SPEAKER_01 (30:58):
Yeah.
Well, and it's like you one ofthe things that you said, and I
can't remember if it was beforewe started recording or in your
synopsis, that the movie doesnot judge her for using her
sexuality as part of hertoolbox.
SPEAKER_00 (31:10):
Yeah, I don't, I do not, I am not left with like,
because Otto, who gets jealous,is such a buffoon.
And the way in which he exhibitshis jealousy is so absurd and
reprehensible that you can'thelp but think she's in the
(31:30):
right.
And like at one, they're in thecar at one point.
He's like, Well, well, what areyou gonna, what are you gonna
do?
Like, is are you gonna let himtouch your tits?
And she's like, Yeah, probably$20 million.
It's worth some tit touching orsomething like it's like that.
I don't, that's not verbatim.
And he was like, Well, whatabout penetration?
And he is meant to appearridiculous, whereas she is
(31:51):
getting the job done with thetools in her toolbox.
SPEAKER_01 (31:54):
She's being professional.
SPEAKER_00 (31:56):
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
And I like, here's the thingthat because it's a self-insert,
maybe it's more complicated.
Like, I genuinely don't know howto feel about her affection for
Archie.
I believe she has it.
I believe it's by the end, it isnot part of the con.
(32:16):
In the car on the way from thecourt, when he's like, let's, he
had already said let's run awaytogether at one point.
So now he's like, let's go getthe diamonds.
And she had, he had broken upwith her.
He had called her and said it'sover.
I'm sorry.
And we see him crying after, orlike a single tear, not like
weeping.
And when he says, Let's run awaytogether, and she's like, But
(32:37):
you broke up with me, he said,No, I fell in love with you, but
I wasn't rich enough, remember?
Because at one point whilethey're together, she asks if
he's rich, and he says, No, themoney's on my wife's.
And so, and she's hides herdisappointment, but we see her
hiding it.
So theoretically, Archie saw itas well.
So when he says that, I wasn'trich enough, like she like
(33:01):
softens and like slides over onthe bench seat to sit next to
him while he's driving.
So there is a there, the moviedefinitely wants us to believe
that there is genuine affectionfrom this woman who uses sex and
affection to get what she wants.
And layered on to the otherthings that we've talked about
today, about a sense of likeAmerican femininity and a sense
(33:25):
of like being alive but withoutintegrity or not playing by the
rules or being dead, but playingby the rules.
Like, sort of, I think Cleesehas a hierarchy or the movie has
a hierarchy of what in thatmatrix of what is better, but
I'm not a hundred percent surekind of how it shakes out.
(33:46):
We're meant to believe hisaffection for her is real.
He says he's in love with herrepeatedly because she makes him
feel alive again.
And that's I think meant to behis response at least is meant
to be real.
The fact that it happenedthrough not real because she was
conning him.
SPEAKER_01 (34:02):
It was a performance on her part.
SPEAKER_00 (34:04):
It was, but then because he fell in love with
her, it stopped beingperformance.
Like the actual like narrativeof that affection is muddy for
me.
And I'm not sure, I don't know.
I at the end of the day,honestly, I just feel like
they're all kind ofreprehensible, and I just yeah,
sure, okay, you love each other.
(34:26):
Like in some ways, she's themost honest because she's like,
it's all about the money and herown comfort, and like she'll do
what she has to, yeah, yeah.
And she gets pleasure where shecan.
Yeah, right.
Like, that's why she she knewshe was gonna have to sleep with
him, but if he speaks Italian,maybe it'll be fun for her too.
SPEAKER_01 (34:48):
Yeah, like look, this is the job, but you know,
if the job can be fun, great.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
It this brings up for me, wetend to we have this thing in
society where we judge women whoget power by being the wife of a
man in power.
Right.
I've been thinking about thislately because of Erica Kirk
(35:09):
taking over Turning Points USA.
And people are judging her forthat.
And I'm not gonna get into thepolitics of what they do, but
the thing is, that was the waythat women had.
That was the path women had toget to power.
And using sexuality and usinglooks was the path that women
had, and pretending affectionwas the path that women had to
(35:31):
get to power.
And I I felt into this as well.
I judged women for flirting.
Well, you were you were taughtto, I mean, yeah.
Whereas, like, I think it'sabsolutely reasonable to be
like, no, she's beingprofessional.
SPEAKER_00 (35:48):
It's one of the tools.
Why would you not use it?
SPEAKER_01 (35:50):
Whereas Otto is being unprofessional.
Completely unprofessional.
But he's the worst.
He's the worst.
And actually, so one of thethings you talked about, I think
the homophobia and the ableismin this, which is like that
shows to like within thecharacter that the
unprofessionalism of Klein'scharacter, but also let's talk
(36:11):
about it as Cleese as thescreenwriter.
SPEAKER_00 (36:14):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, like, I wonder if thiswas some early clues to who
Cleese is.
I mean, he now lives on TurfIsland.
I've heard someone's call itthat way.
He joins his fellow Brit J.K.
Rowling in sort of attackingtrans folks and gender
non-conforming folks.
SPEAKER_01 (36:34):
He also says, like, you can't have comedy anymore,
which is just no, you can'tpaint himself as a victim
anymore.
SPEAKER_00 (36:40):
He paints himself as a victim as a result.
And I think we wanted to believethe broadest we I was 12, but
the broadest we, we wanted tobelieve that Cleese and the
whole Python gang were usingtheir serious comedy skills to
take on the powerful.
But I think actually they wereusing their comedy skills, or at
(37:01):
least Cleese was, to just makefun of people he didn't like.
And the, I mean, it isinteresting that most of the
ableism and homophobia comethrough the this buffoonish
American character that is worthnoting.
And we're still meant to laughat it.
Cleese, Cleese's Archie getsvery gets frustrated with Palin,
(37:24):
Michael Palin, Ken's stutter atthe end when he's trying to
figure out he he keeps saying,like, no hurry, take your time.
No hurry.
Like he gets frustrated andeventually he's like, just spin
it out, man, and immediatelyapologizes.
And so in that, I feel likeCleese had his cake and ate it
too.
Yes.
Because he made his charactersort of know that he shouldn't
(37:46):
make fun of the man with thestutter, but still made us, the
audience, laugh at the man withthe stutter.
And it really felt at him.
I think one might try to arguethat we're laughing at Klein's
auto's buffoonery andassholishness, but it was still
through making fun of the manwith the stutter.
(38:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And yeah, it just it's reallyugly.
I find nothing funny about itnow.
And I don't know, maybe I'muptight, but I'd prefer to think
of it as empathy.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (38:20):
Yeah.
It well, there's I had a like ateeny bit of a stammer as a kid.
Just a teeny bit of one.
Sometimes.
I just remember not liking theway Palin's character was
treated.
And I remember hating the way hewas treated about like how it
(38:41):
was funny that he wasbrokenhearted over the dogs and
his fish.
SPEAKER_00 (38:44):
Yeah, it was we're meant to see it as a weakness.
The other characters do.
And I think the audience ismeant to see it as a weakness as
well.
It that gets exploited by Ottowhen he eats the fish.
SPEAKER_01 (38:53):
I just I couldn't understand that.
And I I I think the dogs weresupposed to be like yappy dogs
that, oh, like nobody likesthose kinds of dogs.
But I'm like, they're dogs.
Yeah.
They were little yorkies.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (39:04):
But yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:05):
The homophobia, I I really want to spend a little
time on that just because I hadyou look up before we started
recording when Graham Chapmanpassed away, who's the first of
the pythons to pass away, he wasgay.
And I can remember John Cleesegave a eulogy that is quite
funny and actually quitebeautiful.
And it was at a, I can'tremember like Westminster Abbey
(39:28):
or some some major cathedral inLondon, where he said a bad word
where he's like, no one wouldhave expected that.
And he truly loved Chapman.
But I can remember him giving aninterview at some point, I think
it was after Chapman died,saying that when Chapman came
out to the pythons, it justbewildered Cleese.
(39:49):
And he said, it would have beenlike if Michael Palin came to me
and told me he was Chinese.
SPEAKER_00 (39:55):
Yeah, we talked about this when we did the
episode about the Holy Grail.
SPEAKER_01 (39:58):
Yeah.
And that's I remember the firsttime I I heard that interview
and it like it didn't sit wellwith me.
And I I've never been able toarticulate exactly why.
And then some of it is justbecause it's so othered.
That there's like the otheringof, you know, if you came to me
and told me you were Chinese,when I've always assumed you
were normal, quote unquote.
(40:21):
And I know that this is aprivileged white dude trying to
grapple with something hedoesn't understand in someone he
loves.
Uh-huh.
And there you gotta give somegrace for that.
But in this one year, so thismovie came out in '88.
Graham Chapman died in 1989.
Right.
So, and after Chapman came out,which would have been in the
(40:43):
70s, so he'd been out for about10 years, writing this kind of
homophobia, and Michael Palin,who, as I understand it, I saw
someone on social media at somepoint saying, Michael Palin's
the only python who wasn'ttripped over his own dick at
some point in the 12th 2000s.
Like it makes me sad that likehe also is participating in this
(41:07):
homophobia.
I'm sad that Kevin Klein isparticipating in this
homophobia.
SPEAKER_00 (41:12):
Yeah.
And I mean, again, as I saidearlier, like, I think one could
argue that by putting it in themouth of this reprehensible
character, I think one couldargue that there was a critique
of it potentially.
But again, it's like saying,like, I would never tell a fat
joke and then like the one thatso-and-so said when he said.
(41:36):
So that you get to like distanceyourself from it while still
telling the fat joke.
That's I so I think one couldmake something of an argument
that putting it in the mouth ofKevin Klein's auto like puts a
grain of salt in there.
But it's still there.
It's still there.
The homophobia is still there.
SPEAKER_01 (41:55):
And it's it's just frustrating because we know that
John Cleese had someone to whomhe was very close, yeah who
could have told him how hurtfulit was.
SPEAKER_00 (42:10):
Yeah.
I mean, it was the late 80s, andalso even though it would be
like he came to me and said hewas Chinese.
It's sort of like, yeah, I lovedhim anyway.
Yeah.
Which, like, as soon as thatanyway comes into the sentence,
it brings the homophobia withit.
Yeah.
And that is the way I perceivedCleese talking about Chapman.
Yeah.
I loved him anyway.
SPEAKER_01 (42:29):
Yeah, it's well, he's one of the good ones.
That's yeah, I have experiencedthat where like someone where if
I'm one of the few Jews thatsomeone knows, I recognize that
I'm in the like, oh, you're oneof the good ones.
I'm in that paddock.
SPEAKER_00 (42:44):
Right, right, right.
I want to talk about one finalthing before I kind of wrap up.
And that is mixed up with theAmerican-British thing is sort
of complicated feelings aboutintellectualism, right?
Because Otto is a fakeintellectual.
Like when we first meet him,he's fallen asleep reading
Nietzsche's Beyond Good andEvil.
(43:06):
He quotes Nietzsche all thetime, but it gets it all wrong.
He gets it all wrong.
Like at one point, Jamie LeeCurtis tells him all the
mistakes he's made and they'reridiculous.
And she also like laughs aboutit with Cleese's Archie at one
point.
And like there are things likeAristotle isn't actually from
Minnesota, or I don't rememberthat maybe isn't it, but it's
stuff like that.
Well, I remember she wonderedwhy they named Yeah.
(43:28):
Okay, go ahead.
Otto wondered why Archie andWendy named their daughter after
a car because her name isPorsche.
And there are other things likethat.
They're just ridiculous.
And so there's this making funof wannabe intellectuals.
The actual intellectuals aremiserable because they're
(43:50):
British.
I mean, that that does seem tobe Cleese's hazis.
Wanda is not an intellectual.
She can play one on TV, butshe's not.
Like when she tells Otto thatthose things were mistakes, she
says, those were all mistakes.
(44:10):
I looked them up.
So there's the implication thatit's she didn't just know.
Although when she's laughingwith Archie, it is the
implication that she she justknows.
So it's, I mean, she is such acon artist, it's hard to know
what's real.
But I do, I am left with theimpression that she is smart but
not intellectual, although shecan play one on TV.
(44:31):
So, like where Khalise lands onthat, like, is or where the
movie lands on that is likeinteresting and complicated.
And I think I just wanted toname that because it, with this
thread of auto quoting Nietzscheall the time, it feels
significant to the kind ofconstellation of what it means
(44:55):
to be British and American andsmart and following the rules
and not following the rules andlike all of those things feel
significant.
So I just wanted to bring thatforward before I close the
conversation.
SPEAKER_01 (45:09):
That does kind of fit with the sense that I can
see where British might see aBritish person, a British
intellectual might see Americansas writ large, as pretenders.
SPEAKER_00 (45:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (45:25):
So all right.
Because we don't wear weirdcurly wigs to go to court.
We do not have a sense oftradition.
unknown (45:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (45:38):
Bulgarians, all of us.
You're the Vulgarian, you fuck.
He's right.
SPEAKER_00 (45:44):
That is, I will say, that is brilliant writing.
No, I mean the screenplay wasnominated for an Oscar, so
there's there John Cleese is abrilliant comedian in a lot of
ways.
SPEAKER_01 (45:59):
He just, I just don't think he's
self-reflective.
SPEAKER_00 (46:03):
Well, yes.
Also, I think this is much ofthe comedy that he finds very
funny, I don't find funny atall.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think that obviously a lotof people do.
It did really well at the boxoffice.
Like people really enjoyed it.
Like Klein's manic performanceis beloved.
I find it difficult to watch.
(46:24):
So I think there's something toothere that we could probably do
a whole podcast on comedy, likea whole show about what is funny
and what in the receiver ofcomedy is activated to make it
laugh.
I mean, we've talked aboutsubverting expectations and
things, but there's subvertingexpectations in ways that disarm
and make me laugh.
(46:44):
And there's subvertingexpectations in ways that make
me absolutely cringe and want toturn the TV off.
SPEAKER_01 (46:48):
So, like 25 years ago, there was a study on the
jokes that made specificcultures laugh.
We've talked about that inanother episode too.
Yeah.
And the things that like makeAmericans laugh is feeling
superior.
SPEAKER_00 (47:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (47:05):
Yeah.
Um, which is Klein's like wholecharacter in this film.
Because we have a coupleminutes, I'm going to tell you
my favorite uh finding was thatthe joke that made the French
laugh most was a dog goes into atelegraph office and says, I'd
like to send a telegram.
I want to say woof, woof, woof,woof, woof.
And the telegraph operator says,Well, you know, for the same
(47:25):
amount of money, you can sendthree more woofs.
And the dog says, Well, thatwould be silly.
And that I think thatencapsulates the French right
there.
SPEAKER_00 (47:37):
Yeah.
I think it was our airplaneepisode where we talked about
that in the past.
So, listener, if you want tohear about what other
nationalities think is funny,you should go listen to the
airplane episode.
All right.
So this film passes Beckdellbecause Wendy and Portia talk
about things besides Archie.
There's a long kind ofmeditation or kind of
(48:00):
exploration of the differencesbetween American and British
culture.
Cleese seems to think that ingeneral, Brits are rule
following and dead.
And Americans are con artists,but somehow alive.
He, and you brought in thenuance on that, that he and the
movie seem to think that conartists and alive, if also
(48:25):
female and sexy, is cool.
But con artists and alive butviolent and wannabe
intellectuals like Otto, so themasculine version of this is not
so cool.
And all like part and parcelwith that is like sort of
assumptions and judgments aboutsexuality, about violence, about
(48:48):
masculinity, about femininity.
It's all wrapped up in this kindof juxtaposition of these two
cultures through this screwballcomedy, which is ableist and
homophobic, especially throughthe person of Otto, played by
Kevin Klein, who is ableist andhomophobic in the direction of
(49:09):
the same character, which isMichael Palin's Ken, who has a
severe stutter that Otto makesfun of repeatedly and literally
tortures him with, and thencomes on to him and like
pretends to be gay in order tomake Ken uncomfortable.
(49:30):
We talked about this ablist,homophobic, brash, would-be
intellectual who's actuallycalling him stupid would be an
insult to stupid people, as insome ways a prototypical
American.
He's gun happy, he thinks he'smuch smarter than he is, he's
prone to violence.
When he gets agitated, he getsmore violent.
(49:52):
He drives on the wrong side ofthe road and then blames other
people for the accidents and isa true vulgarian.
SPEAKER_01 (50:02):
Honestly, it feels kind of prescient right now.
SPEAKER_00 (50:06):
One sort of remaining question mark for me
that I think is answered to acertain extent by the fact that
Khalise is literal inself-insert in the person of
Archie is where Jimmy Curtis'sWanda affection actually lies
and how it is that she fell inlove with Archie.
(50:27):
It seems to be just because hefell in love with her first.
And there's a certain degree, Imean, this woman who, as we
named, uses that tool, that veryuseful and powerful tool as a
professional in her toolbox,that tool being her own
sexuality and sex.
And she has a good time if shecan, but that's not what it's
(50:48):
about.
She's doing what she needs toget the job done because there's
$20 million on the line.
And she doesn't muddy the workwith feelings, right?
I mean, at one point she says,she they lie, and I said they
lie and say that she and Ottoare siblings, but at one point
she says to him, even if youwere my brother, I'd want to
fuck you.
But then she also is gonna knockhim out and take the diamonds
(51:10):
and leave him behind.
So she doesn't get tripped up bystupid things like feelings, and
yet she falls for Archie.
So that that remains sort oflike a question.
And right, or does she?
I mean, we are meant, I think weare meant to believe she
actually does.
But I wonder if someone besidesJohn Cleese were writing this
(51:33):
and Archie weren't John Cleesehimself, if that's how we were
would be meant to read it.
SPEAKER_01 (51:38):
And also like he loves her if he genuinely loves
her instead of just wanting topossess her.
Yeah.
Which that would make adifference for someone who has
been who consistently uses hersexuality as a tool.
SPEAKER_00 (51:54):
Using, yeah, she uses wanting to be possessed as
a way to get things for herself.
Yes, that's a good point.
So we talked about to thehomophobia and the ableism in
here potentially as a clue towhat we now see as Cleese's like
intolerance and meanness.
You brought Graham Chapman intothe conversation, and we sort of
landed on the fact that, yeah,Cleese loved Chapman anyway.
(52:18):
And as soon as that anyway comesinto the sentence, then it
brings homophobia with it.
So there's a certain degree towhich looking backward, it's it
makes sense that homophobia isthere, despite the fact that
Graham Chapman was a very closefriend of Cleese's and was gay
and Cleese knew.
(52:39):
Let me see.
SPEAKER_01 (52:40):
I feel like I'm forgetting something.
We talked about how this movie,even though it's live action, is
a cartoon.
SPEAKER_00 (52:46):
Yeah, it really is.
And that shows up especially infor me, it showed up especially
in the sex scene between Ottoand Wanda, where like when Klein
actually climaxes, when Ottoclimaxes, he sort of stops,
almost looks at the camera, hiseyes cross, and then he kind of
like melts.
Like, oh, it's ridiculous.
(53:07):
It is so cartoony.
And as they're having sex, likeshe's on the bottom, her legs
are straight up in a V withknees locked.
Like it's ridiculous and veryunsexy.
So that was the place where tome, I was like, oh, this is a
cartoon.
Yeah.
But throughout, there's a degreeto which it's a cartoon.
(53:28):
And even in the cinematography,like everybody wears muted
colors except for Jamie LeeCurtis, who wears these very
bright colors and stuff likethat.
So even like where the camerais, like angled, like to make
different, to make Otto feelmore dominant or to make Ken
feel more childlike, things likethat.
So yeah, thank you for namingthat.
(53:49):
Which makes sense with Kleece asa a python.
The Monty Python was cartoonywith live action.
So yeah.
So and just sorry if this is oneof your favorite films.
Like I will never see this filmagain.
It was just not funny to me atall.
There was like maybe two momentsthat I smiled.
(54:11):
And otherwise, I had to kind ofcringe and grit my teeth and
keep going.
So but what are you gonna bringme next week, Em?
SPEAKER_01 (54:18):
My Em bring my deep thoughts on weekend at Bernie's.
SPEAKER_00 (54:25):
Yeah, me neither.
I'm a little bit worried thatit's gonna be another fish
called one.
We'll see.
We'll see.
We'll see.
See you then.
Bye.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
(54:46):
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompotech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
(55:08):
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember, popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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