January 14, 2025 • 64 mins
I admire its purity. A survivor…unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality.
After many references in previous episodes, on this week’s show, the Guy Girls finally tackle the iconic 1979 film Alien. Ridley Scott’s masterpiece gave Tracie and Emily a role model in Ripley, played by Sigourney Weaver to be smart, tough, vulnerable, and right. While many commentators have explored the ways this film works as an allegory for rape and loss of bodily autonomy, Emily’s analysis takes it a little deeper, comparing the words and actions of the villainous science officer Ash to the modern anti-abortion movement. Both focus on protecting potential life–while treating the very real humans who will be harmed as entirely expendable.
Throw on your headphones, save the cat, and take a listen…
CW: Discussions of rape, forced birth, and loss of bodily autonomy
Mentioned in this episode
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0473709/trivia/?ref_=tt_dyk_trv
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vantage_Point_(film)#:~:text=In%20the%20original%20script%2C%20Rex,the%20film%20a%20strong%20female.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now, the idea that this film is actually an
allegory for, rather thanabortion, forced birth,
anti-abortion is something thatI don't know people talk about
as much, and I really want tokind of like focus on what I see
there and why I think that isso important and so interesting.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
What others might deem stupid shit.
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
We're sisters, tracy and Emily,collectively known as the Guy
Girls.
Every week, we take turnsre-watching, researching and
reconsidering beloved media andsharing what we learn.
Come overthink with us and ifyou get value from the show,
(00:41):
please consider supporting us.
You can become a patron onPatreon or send us a one-time
tip through Ko-fi.
Both links are in the shownotes and thanks.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,Because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
On today's episode, I am goingto be sharing my deep thoughts
about the 1979 classic Alienwith my sister, Tracy Guy-Decker
, and with you.
Let's dive in.
All right, Tracy.
(01:13):
I know you've seen it.
We have referenced it multipletimes.
So, many times, but tell mewhat you know.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Remember love about Alien me what you know remember,
love about alien.
So this is one that like,though I associate it with dad,
not because he showed it to us,because I think this is one he
actually protected us from, likenot so much, but alien yes.
So, uh, I didn't see it until Iwas close to it being an adult,
(01:45):
if not an adult, and so I don'thave like like old, old
memories with it.
But I friggin love Ripley, likeadore her, like she's one of
those fictional characters thatI don't know if I want to be her
(02:06):
or be with her, and uh, yeah,so I also like think, well, we
have referenced this film manytimes on deep thoughts, in fact,
in the show notes I'll go backand see if I can find all the
times we've referenced it andlink to those other shows.
But the thing that really Ithink one of the reasons she's
(02:32):
such a touchstone for me as afictional female character, is
that she's brilliant, she'stough, she's right, tough, she's
right.
Nobody listens to her.
She's the only one who survives, and yet she is not sexualized,
(02:53):
like there's that one momentwhere she's in her underwear,
but even when she's on herunderwear, it's like to make her
more vulnerable, I think, notto sexualize her, which is so,
so rare, like it is so hard forme to find in my memory bank a
badass woman, fictionalcharacter in, with whom, in whom
(03:14):
I can self insert, who isn'thyper-sexualized, or at least
somewhat like, like Ripley isn'teven.
It's not that she's nothypersexualized, she's not
sexualized.
And one doesn't realize thatone is missing, that until you
get it and you're like, oh, andit's like so refreshing.
(03:41):
So anyway, that was a lot morethan what I usually give.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
And then, what do you ?
Speaker 2 (03:44):
remember, but like she's just really, really
important to me.
So I will just close by sayingthis movie is way scarier than
ordinarily Tracy Guy Deckerwould be comfortable with.
So that's just a testament tohow awesome Sigourney Weaver as
Ripley is, and I'll leave it atthat.
Yeah, so we've talked about ita bunch of times, so I think I
(04:05):
know why we're talking about ittoday.
But tell me, why are we talkingabout it today?
Speaker 1 (04:09):
So, like you, I associate it with dad in part
because there was in downtownBaltimore there's the Senator
Theater.
It's a classic movie theaterwith like single screen,
gorgeous old theater, and dad onmore than one occasion would
talk about how the bestcinematic experience of his life
was going to the senatortheater when they did a revival
(04:32):
double feature of alien and thenaliens, and it was before the
third movie came out, which Ialso recall dad hating.
He never saw it.
He never saw it.
But oh, he had strong opinionsbecause no, that never kept him
from having strong opinions.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
He was very classically male in that way.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
but I'll, honestly, I'll give him this one because,
uh, the all aliens, um ripley istrying to protect a child, newt
um, and at the end they they gointo like the sleep stasis
thing, and because it's sixyears between films, like they
can't have Newt in the next film.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah, they just kill her off while she's sleeping.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Yeah and Dad.
Like Dad would have acceptedany other way of writing her out
, but the fact that, like shespent two hours fighting aliens,
like two hours of film timefighting aliens to protect this
child and they just kill her inher sleep, no, and like the
franchise was dead to him afterthat.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
I don't know that I could have pulled that out of my
memory bank before you said it,but now that you're saying it I
very clearly remember it.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
So I showed last year I showed uh tracy, or maybe the
year before um the the tv, themovie nope, which came out long
after dad had passed away.
And uh, one of the things aboutthe movie is it's an indictment
of how children, child actorsare, are used in in hollywood.
Uh, and dad had very strongopinions about children in films
(06:09):
and child actors and so likehis and even fictional children.
So I mean, that's what.
That's the reason why he hatedum the world, according to garp,
is because of what happens to afictional child and so like.
It's something that I justassociate so strongly with dad
(06:30):
and you know, dad havingopinions about things he's never
seen.
Generally I'm not a fan of that.
This I kind of I'll give him.
So I have similar strongopinions about the.
Uh, the sex in the city reboot.
So that's that's uh.
(06:52):
Part of the reason why I wantedto talk about it was because of
dad.
And then, of course, what wetalk about about how, what a
badass ripley is.
The film came out the year Iwas born and feeling like
there's so few, there's so fewfemale heroes like Ripley,
(07:14):
there's so few and far betweenwhen this came out.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Yeah, you never existed in a world in which
there wasn't a Ripley.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Yeah exactly, exactly .
So I mean, that's it's just.
It's both amazing andhorrifying.
So that's that's part of why Iwant to talk about it.
Then the fact that and I Idon't think that Ridley Scott or
the um, the writers of thescript necessarily knew this was
(07:44):
what they were doing, but theyhave written an amazing allegory
for rape and abortion,specifically like body autonomy,
and then add in like anindictment of capitalism and how
it fits within that, and sothat is also why I'm very
(08:07):
interested in this film.
And then talking about.
We've talked multiple timesabout storytelling and how
making a change after you'vewritten the story can be so
beneficial.
And in originally, ripley waswritten to be a man.
Now they didn't get to thepoint where they were casting
(08:30):
and they cast Sigourney Weaverwhen it had been Elliot Ripley
instead of Ellen Ripley, and itwasn't that it was multiple
drafts before they got thecasting.
So they knew Ripley was a womanbefore they were doing the
casting call.
But still there's a lot thatwas left in there, because the
assumptions about a malecharacter are different from
(08:54):
what the assumptions about afemale character would be had
they written her as Ellen Ripleyfrom the very beginning, right,
right.
So and that aspect ofstorytelling.
And then there's a couple ofthings that I learned about why
things are the way they are,that were like the authors
trying to solve problems thatthey've written themselves into
(09:18):
and like it's just gorgeous,it's lovely, and I love how that
happens.
Like, oh, we've writtenourselves into a corner, how do
we get out of it?
I love those.
So that's another aspect that Iwant to talk about.
So there's so much in here.
This might just be me.
You know, 50 minutes of megushing.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
All right, well, I look forward to the gush, but
start us off.
Remind me of the plot.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Okay, gonna try to be succinct.
So we are introduced to theNostromo, which is a commercial
spaceship that is returning frommining some sort of ore on its
way back to Earth.
There are seven people on theship.
There's the Captain, dallas,who's played by Tom Skerritt.
(10:11):
There is the second in command,kane, who is played by John
Hurt.
Third in command is Ripley,played by Sigourney Weaver.
We have the science officer,ash, played by Ian Holm.
We have Lambert, the only otherwoman played by Veronica
Cartwright it's not entirelyclear to me what exactly her
(10:32):
role is.
And then we have the twoengineers, parker, played by
Yafit Kato, and then Rhett,played by Harry Dean Stanton.
Now, quick, interesting thingabout Yafit Kato.
I was looking him up because Iwatched with my spouse.
He's like I recognize him.
What do I recognize him from?
And he was on Homicide Life onthe Streets.
He is a black actor.
(10:52):
His father was from Cameroonand I was like, oh weird, his
father's name was Avram.
And my husband was like was hisdad Jewish?
And then I looked it up yes,his dad was Jewish and his
mother converted to Judaism.
And so Yafet Kodo, in hisWikipedia page, talks about his
like study of Hebrew and was apracticing Jew.
(11:14):
So cool, not expected he wasMikvacha.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
So those are the seven individuals on the ship.
And then there is also a shipcat named Jonesy or Jones.
So they have been woken up fromstasis.
They believe it's because theyare nearly at Earth.
And then the captain Dallas.
There's a for-yours-eyes-onlymessage from Mother, which is
(11:44):
what they call the ship'scomputer, and it's because it's
M-U-T-H-U-R but they call theship's computer Mother, and she
has a female voice.
Turns out that they are notnear Earth, they are a while
away.
But they intercepted a message.
(12:06):
It's unclear what it is, butit's repeating every 12 seconds.
It's clearly some sort ofintelligent life and they have
been woken to go investigate,interested in going.
All they care about is gettingtheir money and getting home.
(12:30):
But Ash, the science officer,points out that part of their
contract is they are required tocheck out these kinds of
distress calls or whatever theyare, or else they forfeit all of
their money.
So the Nostromo, their ship ishuge and there is like a landing
ship that undocks from it thatthey take down to the surface.
The shuttlecraft yeah, it's theshuttle, basically, although
there's a separate thing that isa shuttle later.
(12:53):
That's like a lifeboat shuttle,okay, and whatever it is, they
dock powers the entire thing.
So they land on the planet andthere is some sort of something
breaks on the ship in a veryspectacular way and it's not
clear how it happens or whathappens.
But they are going to have todry dock the ship, which means
(13:14):
like clear everything out to fixeverything.
So the captain, dallas, secondin command, kane and then
Lambert all go to investigatethe distress call in spacesuits.
What they discover is this kindof phallic shaped spaceship.
There is a fossilized,destroyed alien creature sitting
(13:37):
in like a captain's chair.
They continue examining thingsand they find this hold, this
cargo hold full of what appearsto be like eggs.
Kane is down investigating byhimself and one of the eggs like
bursts open and like jumps onhim.
Whatever's inside jumps on him.
Meanwhile, on the ship, ripleyis trying to decode the signal
(14:04):
that's been sent every 12seconds and determines that it
seems like it's not an SOS, itseems like it might be a warning
.
Dallas and Lambert come backwith Kane, who is unconscious
and he has been attacked.
There's something on him.
Ripley refuses to open theairlock, saying like you know,
(14:26):
quarantine procedures 24 hours.
Dallas is saying like I don'tknow Kane's going to live 24
hours and Ripley's like I'msorry, like there's, there's
four of us in here.
We might all die.
Ash, however, is right by wherethe airlock is, and so he
manually opens it and lets themin.
They bring Kane into theinfirmary and they discover that
(14:48):
he has what is now known as theface hugger, with this creepy
creature thing over his facethat has something down his
throat.
He appears to be in some sortof coma, and Ash thinks that it
may be delivering oxygen to him.
They try to cut a piece of itoff and the blood drips down,
(15:08):
and it turns out to be like thisextremely corrosive acid.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Oh, I remember that it goes through like multiple
levels of the ship.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Yes, yes, ripley goes and basically gives Ash what
for about his role in lettingthem in and putting them all in
danger.
And Ash basically says like myjob as a science officer, let me
do my job.
They are continuing to work onfixing the ship.
(15:36):
They get it fixed and are backup to the main part of the
Nostromo, to redock there, andcalls dallas to come back to the
uh infirmary because thefacehugger is all of a sudden
gone.
It's no longer on kane's face.
So they go looking for it, liketry to figure out where it went
(15:56):
.
In the infirmary they keepleaving doors open.
It's just like what are youdoing?
It ends up falling fromoverhead onto Ripley but it
appears to be dead.
Dallas wanted to put it in theairlock and blast it into space
and Ash, the science officer,overrode him.
They don't know what it is,they don't know if it's carrying
(16:25):
some sort of disease, theydon't know what's going on.
And Dallas is just not willingto butt heads with Ash over it
and he basically says to Ripley,like look, I'm the captain, but
this is under the purview ofthe science officer, I'm not
going to fight him on it, I justwant to get home.
At this point we learn that theyare 10 months away from Earth.
(16:48):
They're still monitoring Kane.
He's still in the coma.
Then a little bit later hewakes up and he appears to be
fine.
So they let him know.
Okay, we're about to go backinto stasis.
He's like can I have somethingto eat first?
And they're like, oh,absolutely sure, we're about to
go back into stasis.
He's like, can I have somethingto eat first?
And they're like, oh,absolutely sure, we're gonna
have, you know, our last meal.
They're all sitting together,and that is when we have the,
(17:10):
the very famous chest bursterburster scene.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
yeah, so they blast port cane's body out into space
and then wait for that, becausethe little like hello my baby,
hello my honey guy, like runningaround the ship right.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Yes, uh, it's also.
They don't have a place for abody.
I mean, I think that's alsojust that's what you do with a
dead body if someone dies, it'sprotocol.
So they end up they go lookingfor they, because now they're
six and they break into groupsof three and three.
They're not sure what they needto do, but they are going to
(17:49):
try to catch it.
And it was small, I mean, itwas like burst out of a human
being.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Yeah, which is why I compared it to the dancing frog.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Well that actually you did that because that's what
they did in Spaceballs.
Right, you're right, and Ireally wish I had seen Alien
before I saw Spaceballs.
So it is, ripley is with Rhettand Parker, so the two engineers
(18:19):
, and Dallas is with Lambert andAsh.
We follow Ripley's group.
They have something that Ashhas come up with that basically
detects motion.
So they are following somethingthat detect motion.
Turns out to be the cat that isterrified and runs off because
Brett allowed it to get away,because he's like it was just
(18:39):
the cat, because he was preparedto catch, and they're like,
yeah, but we still need to catchit because it's going to keep
setting off the motion detector.
So he goes after the cat.
He finds a shed skin, which isthe only indication that we have
that the xenomorph is nowbigger than it used to be.
(19:02):
I see he is able to find thecat and is trying to grab him
and the cat starts hissing atsomething behind him and of
course, it's the xenomorph thatis now seven feet tall and kills
him.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Oh wow, it grew quick , it grew quick it grew quick,
they reconvene, they realizethat the xenomorph does
xenomorph come fromi?
Speaker 1 (19:28):
don't know that's just what the, what the uh
franchise calls them.
Okay, so I mean I'm guessingxeno means like foreign and
morph means to, to change, soit's a changeable alien.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Okay, cool, all right .
Speaker 1 (19:44):
So seven foot tall changeable alien, yes, so they
determined that it is using theair shafts to get around.
And, remember, this is anabsolutely massive cargo ship,
so, like, trying to find it isdifficult.
So they think, okay, well,since we know that it's using
the air shafts, we can shut itoff, because we can close up air
(20:06):
shafts.
And so they are going to try toforce it into an airlock and
then blast it out into space.
But how do they force it?
Like they don't know exactlywhat to do.
They can't shoot it because itsblood can destroy the hull.
Yeah, Also, it's a spaceship andlike like you don't want holes,
yeah.
So basically they they haveflamethrowers.
(20:29):
They're like you know whatabout temperature?
It's probably not gonna be okaywith fire.
So lambert asks who's gonna goon the air shafts and ripley
says I will and dallas says no,I will go, and that feels to be
in part his acknowledgement thathe was wrong earlier.
(20:50):
That that's sort of him this ishis fault.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yes, this is his penance.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Yes, yeah, so they are again have some sort of like
motion detector, the like x-raymotion detector thing.
It's very 1970s technology butit fits, because this is such a
like this is a blue collar ship.
It's like this is nobody caresabout this ship, Just as long as
(21:17):
it works.
They're there to get in, getout, get their war, whatever
Utilitarian.
Yes, so they're.
They're trying to keep track ofit and helping the captain find
where the alien is, and theyknow that it's nearby, but he
can't see it.
They don't know what's going on.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
And then he's screaming and he has died as far
as I can tell, we don't see ithappen.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Oh, that's terrifying .
So that means that there's nowonly four.
It's Ripley who is now thecommanding officer, because the
captain and the second incommand are both dead Ash, the
science officer, parker theengineer and Lambert I think
she's the pilot, but it's notentirely clear.
Anyway, they're like okay, sowhat do we do?
(22:02):
Nowley says let's do like,let's continue with, uh, with
the captain's plan.
And Lambert is like no, let'sgo in the, the escape shuttle,
and take our chances.
And Ripley says the escapeshuttle isn't built for four
people, we can't do that.
(22:22):
She says look, I'm the captainnow, so that means that I can
talk directly to mother and getthe for your eyes only stuff.
So I'm going to go do that andsee if that can help us figure
out what we need to do.
She goes into, like, the privatechamber that has that and again
, just as it did with Dallas, itdoesn't really give her much
information, and so she is nottrusting Ash, and has not been
(22:43):
trusting him for a while, andstarts asking more questions
like okay, what's going on withthe science officer?
Turns out that he has a secretmission that is for his eyes
only, and she says, okay,override, because I'm the
captain, which I found it kindof cool that she's allowed to do
(23:04):
the override, cause you know,like that, that's one of those
things where, like yeah it,mother, really is just a
computer program, so there mustbe overrides, and things like
that.
It turns out that his missionis to bring back a living sample
of this organism and all otherorders are rescinded and the
(23:24):
crew is expendable.
Oh what?
So she is.
And the other thing I likeabout Ripley, especially in this
film I haven't seen furtheralong because I feel like it got
more and more like stoic actionmovie but she's crying and that
(23:47):
is a very human response andmakes sense, and she looks up
and ash is in this, for youreyes, only booth with her that
he's not supposed to be able toget into how did he get in there
?
because he is the only one thatthe, the, he's like the real.
(24:07):
Yeah, he's really the one who'sreally in charge of the ship.
We had learned earlier.
Because Ripley asks Dallas,what do you know about Ash?
And he's like well, I workedwith a different science officer
for like my last three missions, who was replaced two days
before we left with Ash.
(24:29):
So ash starts to say there's,there's an explanation.
And she like runs away from himand he starts attacking her and
like is something weird's goingon with him?
Like he's, he's making weirdfaces and noises.
And then he starts like likesweating or bleeding something
white and is trying to um killher in the weirdest way possible
.
He's got like like he has findsa magazine, he like rolls it up
and he's like putting it overher mouth.
(24:50):
It's very bizarre.
So Parker and Lambert arrive andthey end up like fighting with
him, uh, and like I don'tremember exactly how they do it,
but like hitting his head sothat it falls off.
It turns out that ash is arobot, weird.
(25:11):
So they, they get himcompletely like turned off, like
destroyed, basically.
But then you see ripley is likeall right, let's, let's uh
reattach him and um parker'slike why she says he might know
how to destroy these things.
So we need to question him.
And so that's that amazingscene where it's just like his
(25:35):
head up and he's covered in thatwhite gunk that's on the inside
of him.
Yeah, and he doesn't give themany information about how to
destroy the alien, doesn't givethem any information about how
to destroy the alien.
He talks about this is hismission to bring it back and
that everyone's expendable.
And he says something about howthe alien is like this perfect
(25:58):
survivor.
And Parker says well, it soundslike you admire them.
And he says I admire theirpurity, I admire that they are
all about survival, with noquestion of morality or
conscience and I just wanted toput a pin in that because it's
part of what I want to talkabout later.
And he ends by saying I can'ttell you what your odds are, but
(26:26):
you have my sympathies.
I can't tell you what your oddsare, but you have my sympathies
.
Before they turn them off, andthen Parker uses flamethrower to
completely destroy everything.
That like destroy ash, so it'sjust melted metal and everything
.
(26:47):
So they decide to go withLambert's plan and get on the
shuttle.
Now there's only three.
Now there's only three of themand chances are better anyway,
like you know, they'll taketheir chances.
So, parker, a full 10 monthsfrom Earth.
Yes, ripley sends Parker andLambert to get coolant from the
engine room.
Not entirely clear what that'sneeded for, but apparently it's
needed.
What they're going to do isthey're going to get into the
(27:08):
shuttle and they're going to setoff the self-destruct of the
Nostromo.
The self-destruct sequence is10 minutes long.
After five minutes you can nolonger turn it off.
While Ripley is getting theshuttle ready and getting ready
to do the self-destruct mode,she hears Jonesy meowing and so
(27:28):
she goes after to find Jones.
This was a point where myspouse was going like I don't
think that that's like that'snot the right thing to do, like
the cat the cat die.
Yeah, and the cat won't sufferwhen the ship explodes.
At that moment, like she has alittle bit of time and my I
(27:49):
argued that, having seen whatAsh is willing to do to people
who have nothing to do with thisand is willing to allow them to
die, I can see someone who hasa conscience being like I will
not be like that.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
I can take five minutes to look for the cat
Swinging the pendulum too farthe other way, yes.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
She manages to get the cat, she hears Lambert and
Parker yelling.
The alien has cornered Lambertand Parker is yelling at her to
get out of the way because he'sgot the flamethrower but it's
going to kill Lambert if he usesit at that moment and she is
just frozen.
(28:33):
She is frozen and like, like,like the fight, flight or freeze
, she's free.
And Parker eventually is likewell, I can't, I can't leave her
, I can't, I can't fight a fire.
And so he tries to fight thealien with like, not
hand-to-hand comment but andthey both die, both Lambert and
(28:55):
Parker.
So Ripley hears that she knowswhat's going on, so she goes to
the bridge to set off theself-destruct and she gets that
going and she's heading back tothe shuttle with Jones in a
carrier and she runs into thealien that is in between her and
the shuttle.
So she goes back to the bridgeto try to shut off the
(29:19):
self-destruct because she needsmore time to be able to get
around the alien and is too late, is unable to do that.
And is too late, is unable todo that.
So she runs, sees no sign ofthe alien at that point, gets
herself and Jones onto theshuttle, is able to get away
(29:39):
just in time before the Nostromocompletely blows up.
At that point she's like allright, we're safe, jones and I.
She puts the cat in the stasismachine that she's going to
share with the cat and starts toget undressed.
It's the point, you remember.
When she realizes the alien ison the shuttle with her, it has
kind of like hidden in like this, like bulkhead, so she shuts
(30:04):
herself in like a closet wherethere's a space suit comes out.
And this part I had completelyforgotten and it is so cool.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
It's like a forklift.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
No, that's in Aliens.
Oh, that's in the second one forgoing like, I think, going on
planet, I don't think it's evenfor like spacewalks, I think
it's.
So she puts it on, puts on thehelmet, and she is singing you
Are my Lucky Star, and it'samazing.
It's amazing because she'sclearly terrified and she's
(30:41):
doing this so that, like, she'sgot something to focus on and
she is able to flush the alienout of the bulkhead.
She buckles herself in and shehas this like harpoon and she
like shoots the alien with aharpoon and opens the hatch so
(31:02):
that it is forced out, but it'sstill attached to the harpoon,
which is like stuck on her aswell, and so, like she's closing
the hatch and it's still liketo the harpoon, which is like
stuck on her as well, and so,like she's closing the hatch and
it's still like able to come in, and so she, she fires the, the
rocket boosters, and it burnsup the alien's body and then she
is finally safe and it endswith her making a like a ship
(31:24):
log, saying like this is iswhat's happening, we are heading
this direction, and she ispetting the cat and feel safe
and that's the end of the film.
So good, so Passes.
Bechdel, lambert and Ripleytalk to each other about all
(31:48):
kinds of stuff, which is greatall right.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
And so, listeners, as a reminder, the bechdel test.
We ask ourselves threequestions.
Are there at least two femalecharacters who both have names?
Do they talk to each other?
Do they talk to each otherabout something other than a man
or a boy?
Speaker 1 (32:16):
So I want to get into now.
But like alien has been talkedabout and discussed and
dissected so many times and solike I kind of want to talk
about what it meant to me,rather than like reinvent the
wheel of the things that peoplehave said many, many times.
Sure, like reinvent the wheelof the things that people have
said many, many times, sure, soI can remember learning.
So I saw the movie for thefirst time.
I think I was in college it'sbeen about 25 years and I
(32:38):
remember learning.
Not long after that people oftensaw it as an allegory for rape
is very understandable, in thatKane is attacked and impregnated
against his will and you knowthe look of the alien, which was
(32:59):
designed by HR Giger andactually originally, apparently,
ridley Scott.
The director had to reallyreally push for them, push for
the studio to go with thesedesigns because they looked so
sexual and they have in facttoned them down a bit.
But the alien looks veryphallic and organic and there's
(33:24):
a lot in there.
Also, if you remember, the kindof glistening thing on the jaws
was KY Jelly that they used forthat which is entirely a
special effects decision.
(33:46):
that makes sense, but it alsojust kind of adds to it.
So I think all of that isreally really fascinating and
it's something that has beenwell documented.
Now, the idea that this film isactually an allegory for,
actually, rather than abortion,forced birth, anti-abortion, is
something that I don't knowpeople talk about as much, and I
(34:07):
really want to kind of likefocus on what I see there and
why I think that is so importantand so interesting.
So there are several thingsthat kind of add to that idea.
First of all, there's a lot inthere Like the fact that the
computer is called Mother.
When Dallas is in the airshaftss, the I can't think what
(34:30):
they're called when you closesomething, that the hatches.
The hatches are, um, they'resphincters, they dilate and he
is climbing through a canal,basically like a birth canal,
and these, these hatches are,are closing behind him.
They're dilating, closed,undilating, what's the opposite
(34:53):
of dilating I don't knowshrinking, um, so there's.
There's that aspect of it likethere's.
There's quite a bit that haveto do with pregnancy within the
film, and in fact Ash refers tothe alien that burst out of
(35:17):
Kane's chest as Kane's son.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Weird and Ash was the robot science officer.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
Yes, so all of that tells me that pregnancy is very
much is intentional.
It seems like Now I have noidea if Ridley Scott or I think
O'Bannon was the name of thescreenwriter and Shusett, I have
no idea if they intended this,but there are a number of other
things that make it clear to methat this is a very good
(35:49):
allegory for the modernanti-abortion movement, because
we have this, the corporationthat is prioritizing this life
form, this potential life, overthe lives of people who are
(36:12):
already there.
Yeah, they're expendable,they're expendable.
(36:32):
So, in the same way is similarto people overriding the ability
to get plan B or or birthcontrol, even it's.
It's like you know, ripley ismaking the responsible choice,
(36:56):
prudent, the prudent responsiblechoice and is not allowed.
The fact that Ash is played by aman, I think is is really
important, agreed.
And then the thing that reallygot me.
So we see ash at one point.
Um, he eats, we see that.
But there's one point where heis alone in the infirmary and
(37:19):
he's drinking what looks likemilk and and I remember thinking
like that's really weird, like,you know, you'd think it would
be coffee or something like that, and that is again seems like a
very intentional choice.
And then when he is destroyedand he is covered in white,
white is often associated withpurity or motherhood because of
(37:45):
milk, because of milk.
And at every point Ash acts asif he is doing the right thing
and when he says I admire theirpurity.
They are survival machines thathave nothing to do with
(38:06):
morality, conscience, and thatvery much reminds me of the
kinds of arguments you get fromanti-abortionists when they say,
like we must protect the unbornbecause they are pure, they
have no one to speak for them,or conscience of what is
(38:28):
happening to the pregnant personwho, for whatever reason, feels
the need to terminate thepregnancy.
And so I doubt that it wasintentional in terms of
anti-abortion, in part becausein 1979, the anti-abortion
(38:48):
movement wasn't what it is today, but it has so much resonance
it is very clearly.
Ash basically says I can't tellyou what your odds are, but you
have my sympathies.
That feels very similar to well, have the baby, I don't care.
Once you've had the baby, Idon't care.
Once it's once, once you've hadthe baby.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Yeah, I don't care what happens.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Yeah, and people who criticize an intention on
purpose and reasonably criticizethe anti-abortion movement.
They talk about how the unbornare the perfect people to
protect, because they ask fornothing.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
And they can't tell you what they want or critique
the ways in which you speak ontheir behalf.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
And so, with all of that, it makes it even more
amazing and important andnecessary that the the Ripley is
our hero.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Yeah, yeah, and that she lives.
Yeah, you know it's interestingtoo.
Like I know we're just talkingabout the first movie, but you
talk about the bodily autonomyand whether or not it was on
purpose.
In the third movie there's thatall like a whole host of
ripleys, because they've beentrying to clone her with the
combined dna or whatever and oneof them says to like the hero,
(40:14):
sort of stoic action figureversion.
Kill me right, like, so, like,talk about, like an indictment
of um of the what's the word I'mlooking for of sealing
someone's bodily autonomy yeah,yeah but that and that's like
later in the franchise, not whatthis film is doing.
But I think it does corroborateyour thesis here that it's
(40:37):
there because the the laterfilmmakers I don't even know if
it's the same people or not likesaw it and like pulled on that
thread.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Yes, yes, and then like this is so silly.
But because my spouse and I hadthis back and forth about the
cat and I understand where he'scoming from, because he was
saying like Ripley throughout isbeing very responsible.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
And then she now, at the time she didn't have
anything she had to do at thatmoment, so she did have a couple
of minutes to like okay, I'mgoing to try to get the cat.
But I was also thinking aboutthe fact that women are supposed
to like get rid of their catswhen they're pregnant because of
the possibility oftoxoplasmosis.
Now it's honestly, that's mereaching, yeah that's just
(41:28):
horrific and the presence of thecat in the film is a little
like.
My spouse was like why is therea cat on the ship?
And my thinking is it's kind oflike old-fashioned, like ships
on the sea where they'd have acat to take care of rodent
population and like who knows,they might have a similar sort
of problem on spaceships, sortof problem on on spaceships.
(41:53):
So he was like well it's,there's the, the save the cat
film writing, uh, screenwritingtrope, and I'm sure this is
where that came from.
It does give her a reason tolike lose focus at that end and
and and all of that.
But I also really do like myinterpretation in that like this
(42:14):
may not you convinced me, yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
You convinced me with it that that she just I mean
it's not just her physicalsurvival Like she's also like,
especially since we saw her cry,right, we saw it move her
emotionally and upset her, andso this is, and and it makes
sense to me that a manifestationof her rejection of that truth
(42:40):
that made her cry would be totry and save the cat.
That actually, that jibes forme.
I believe that as aninterpretation, as a motivation
for that character who you'reright Like has your spouse is
right that she has been like no,you can't come back in to three
humans, so why would she goafter the cat?
(43:03):
But I actually think that yourexplanation does make it make
sense within character.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Yeah, and I feel like it also it fits.
This is the same like.
She is very good at her job,she is smart, she's right, she,
she has focus, but she is alsohuman and so she cries.
At that point she goes afterthe cat and then she sings you
(43:28):
are my lucky star, as she'strying to kill the alien and and
ensure her own survival.
And, like I, I see all of thatas part of like.
That is the ripley that peeksthrough when she cannot be the
stoic action figure right,that's actually what makes her a
(43:48):
fully formed human, yes, being,and not just an action figure
yes, yes exactlyyeah, that's nice, that's really
nice and that's that's alsowhat's great about it, because
when we had like girl power inthe 90s, it wasn't a full human
being like, it was someone whocould like fight and be
(44:11):
sexualized, but then there wasno like you don't know what song
her parents sang to her whenshe was scared at night, you
know.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Right?
No, for sure.
No, she sprung fully formed,wearing her wonder bra from the
mind of Marvel or whatever, yeah, yeah totally, Totally Well.
I think this is actually agreat segue to the last point
(44:54):
that I want you to explore alittle bit before we wrap up, to
learn from that and what effectthat has.
I'd love, I'd love to like, doa little bit of.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
I think that's part of why she's fully formed human
being, so let's pull on thatthread a little bit more so, um
and we've talked about thisbefore about about how I am a
big believer in waiting untilthe story is written to then
change something essential likegender, race, age, because those
(45:22):
are the sort of and when I sayessential, I don't mean that
they are essential, but they arethe things that we have
preconceived notions and biasesabout.
Yeah, so it's why I love theidea of casting a woman as James
Bond.
Right, because if this had beenwritten as like from the very
(45:46):
beginning, where Ripley was awoman, it seems very unlikely
that she would have been thefully formed character that we
see Totally.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
She would have taken her clothes off a lot earlier.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
Oh, and I will say, as you mentioned, that moment
when she is not dressed, I hadremembered when I saw it,
feeling like I really wish theydidn't have to have that, but
seeing it this time around,recognizing you're absolutely
right.
It is about vulnerabilityrather than it being about
sexuality.
And so there were some things,for Ridley Scott apparently had
(46:20):
wanted the alien to like observeher and be like attracted or
something.
Ew, yeah, gross, ridley Scottattracted or or something.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
Ew yeah, gross and no .
Well, I mean, hey, she'sfucking prey what I mean he did.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
He, he did have that both end in blade runner.
That was ridley scott as well.
He also had originally thoughtabout having ripley die and the
alien like mimic her voice,which a completely different
movie, like it just doesn't.
That doesn't even fit.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
And all of that was once Ripley was a woman, right
right, right, um, yeah, likebeauty tamed the beast or
something with the mimicking hervoice.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
Yeah, gross, yeah, yeah, no, no, my recollection of
it and it's been it's beenprobably 10 years since I've
seen it yeah, probably 10 yearssince I've seen it.
But my recollection of it wasreally that it was about her
being more vulnerable becauseshe thought she was safe.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
Yes, and she's, definitely she's wearing like
utilitarian undergarments.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
Yeah, yeah, my recollection is like kind of
granny panties and a tank.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
Yeah, it's the.
The underpants aren't, aren'tquite, they're just.
They're what the company givesyou.
Speaker 2 (47:42):
Yeah, they're not lingerie.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
Yeah yeah, they're underwear and they don't fit her
that well, which is part of thereason why it's like this is
what the company gives you, so Ithink that that is like this is
one of the best examples of whyI am such a believer in that.
I think we also need to writeoriginal stories.
Speaker 2 (48:08):
We need both.
Speaker 1 (48:14):
We need both.
We need both and in doing alittle bit of research last
night, this is one of threetimes Sigourney Weaver has taken
a part that was originallywritten as a male character.
No, kidding.
Yeah, the other two were moviesI'm not familiar with, so I'll
include it in the show notesbecause it was just like oh,
I'll have to go watch those, butthey're none of her iconic
characters.
Got it to go, go watch those,um, but they're none of her like
iconic characters.
(48:34):
Got it?
The other writing thing that Iwant to mention that I said like
they wrote themselves into acorner oh, yeah, yeah, yeah so
the reason why the blood is acidis because they had realized
they didn't know why theycouldn't Cut it off.
Cut it off Well, I mean likeonce it's the seven foot tall
alien why they couldn't attackit.
Speaker 2 (48:56):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
With something more like, even with the flame
thrower and stuff like that,they were afraid to like
actually burn it, unless thealien was like just this
invincible thing.
They're like no, we don't wantit to be invincible, it's
organic.
But we want there to be areason why they can't just like
go at it with machetes orwhatever.
Yeah, it's because it'lldestroy the hall, uh, with its
(49:18):
blood.
And I was like I love that,because you create this iconic
scene where, like it's hissingthrough and you're like holy
crap, and they're liketerrifying, they're chasing it
down, like what do we do if itbreaches the hull?
But it also gives you this likevery intelligent and logical
(49:39):
reason why they can't just likebecause when they're trying to
catch it, like you know, we'lljust bring like knives and cut
it off and like, no, you can'tdo that.
Yeah, that's cool and that'sjust that's part of the writing
process, like similar to likethe process of like.
(50:01):
Both writers and non-writershave this sense that you like
write a story and that's it,it's done Right, writers should
know better, but they oftendon't because, like, we are so
hard on ourselves andnon-writers, it's understandable
, they don't realize.
But you find solutions toproblems and what is in our
(50:24):
sister podcast, lightbringers.
I've talked about how sometimesa writer will write something
that solves the writer's problem, not the character's problem,
and I hate that.
I hate it when it happensbecause I can see the writer at
work and the things that arelike the most satisfying
story-wise are ones that arelike character-driven or make
(50:47):
within the world, and so thatwas this was a make sense within
the world um, yeah, and it justmakes it make sense for us, as
the viewer reminds me of themoment in jaws when the
canisters, when he the he doesthe wrong knot and he says those
things will explode.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
you know, like, so, like it's, it's, it's the
Chekhov's gun, that doesn't sayhey, hey, it's me, I'm Chekhov's
gun.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
Hey, hey, hey, yes, it just is yes.
And it also this also gave the,the characters more opportunity
to be logical and rational.
Yeah, yeah, it's justgorgeously written and there are
(51:33):
.
You know, my spouse afterwardsbecause he had actually never
seen it was asking me he's likewell, why this particular you
know cargo ship?
And you know, is every scienceofficer on every ship owned by
the company a robot, or is itjust this one?
Did they know that they weregoing to be going by?
(51:53):
Why not send?
And I'm like, okay, you gotgood questions.
But I was like, neverunderestimate corporate greed.
He's like, no, no, no, I'm notdoing that.
And I was like and alsocorporate willingness to do
something stupid because ofcorporate greed.
So, like you know, they don'twant to send a ship specifically
(52:15):
.
But you know, if one of thepush for women to people to have
children against their will isthat we have more workers and we
have more people who arereliant on work to make sure
that they can survive, maybe,well, because abortion is always
(52:59):
legal for people who have money.
Speaker 2 (53:04):
Yeah, okay, so there's a lot here, oh, yeah,
here, yeah, so let me see what Ican do.
Um, so, this 1979 classic.
(53:25):
There has never been a world infor emily in which ripley
didn't exist, which is prettyfreaking cool.
I was only three.
So I think one of the reasonsthat this film has come up for
us before is because Ripley isthis badass female Cassandra in
a way, who says what's going tohappen.
(53:49):
She warns everybody.
Nobody believes her and theyall die and she doesn't, and
that's awesome.
But she was originally writtenas a man, and so that's the
reason that it's come up for usin deep thoughts in the past is
because this is this example ofthis amazing female character
who part of the reason, part ofthe Genesis of her amazingness,
(54:14):
is that she was originallywritten as a man, and so the
male writers writing it likeweren't limiting her with their
understanding of femaleness,with their understanding of
femaleness.
So that's the reason she's comeup before, and we talked about
(54:35):
that to a certain extent.
Some of the new things from thisconversation that came up that
you brought to this is that thisfilm has been seen by others as
a rape allegory, because Kane,who is the first guy to get the
face hugger, which I wanted toask, but I guess it doesn't
matter.
Like, wasn't he wearing a suitor something?
Speaker 1 (54:55):
It burned through his helmet.
Speaker 2 (54:57):
Oh right, cause he's got the acid thing.
Okay, so Kane was attacked andimpregnated against his will and
then the birth killed him.
And the echoes, the resonanceswith pregnancy and childbirth,
(55:21):
are clearly there andintentional, because we see at
one point Dallas moving throughthe air ducting with
sphincter-like hatches beforeand behind and the villainous
robot refers to the xenomorph asKane's son.
(55:46):
I bet there's some stuff in thenames too, by the way.
Oh yeah, yeah.
So this resonance there's somethere there and also probably
intentional.
The thing that maybe wasn'tintentional but still feels
deeply resonant and relevant,that you brought out of your
(56:07):
analysis here, is the ways inwhich the, the, the company, and
Ash, the the robots kind ofresonated at the same frequency
as today's anti-abortionmovement who, uh, speak for the
unborn and who protect them atall costs and treat the people
(56:31):
around them and the peoplecarrying the unborn as
completely expendable, and whoalso say at the end I don't know
what your odds are, but youhave my sympathy, and that's an
Emily Guy-Burken original rightthere and that's an Emily
(56:53):
Guy-Birkin original right there.
So that was, I think, a newkind of allegory that you pulled
out.
That could not have beenintentional?
I don't think.
In part, as you pointed out,because the anti-abortion
movement in 1979 wasn't what itis today.
That does not, in my opinion,take away the relevance and the
resonance there and the thingsthat we have to learn from it.
(57:17):
Right, some of the other one.
One other sort of storytellingnote that you brought out is the
way in which the aliens, acidicblood, was actually solving a
reader's problem or a viewer'sproblem, the writer solving a
writer's problem.
That was also a viewer'sproblem Because that fact not
(57:40):
only did it give us that amazing, iconic scene of the acidic
blood burning through the floor,multiple floors of the ship, it
also then created that extralayer of complication in
fighting this thing that ourheroes can't just fight it, they
have to be careful fighting itbecause its blood will destroy
the ship, which is reallyelegant and beautiful in terms
(58:03):
of like storytelling, craft andand and thinking through the
ways that that like solving thatproblem problem helps us to get
a better story and a moreinteresting kind of product at
the end.
We also we named the fact thatone of the things that's so
amazing and powerful aboutRipley as a female character is
(58:26):
that she is not sexualized.
She is a badass, fully formedhuman being who cries, who sings
, who goes after the cat eventhough it's maybe not the best
idea in terms of her survivaland is partially nude or at
least in a state of undress atone point, but not in a
(58:47):
sexualized way, simply in avulnerable way which I think in
contemporary cinematic universewe've forgotten, are two
different things.
Yeah, so that's really cool tohave that in Ripley.
I also named that.
Your point about sort of bodilyautonomy and the critique of
(59:10):
the theft of bodily autonomythat this film gives us again
that there's a there there,because later filmmakers in the
same franchise really show usthat with the clones of Ripley
who beg for death.
Let me see, I feel like who atwho beg for death?
(59:32):
Let me see, I feel like sopasses bechdel, I forgot about
that.
So cool passes bechdel, evenwith only two female characters,
which is with only two, but itpassed it.
They had many conversationsabout things besides men.
Ridley, scott, what the hellconsidered having the alien,
just like lurk and I don't know,lust after ripley?
(59:53):
Considered having her die andthen having it mimic her voice?
Considered having it lust atlike, like, clearly lust after
her in some sort of way, like ew, so glad that that didn't
happen.
Just have to say what?
Am I forgetting him so?
Speaker 1 (01:00:10):
there's the several like symbols and connections.
So the fact that the ship'scomputer is called mother yep um
, the fact that ash isassociated with like milk and
white and and like purity, eventhough he is evil.
One thing I didn't mention, butthat I think is also
interesting and important, isAsh uses a number of different
(01:00:34):
tactics to get what he's hopingfor.
So when he is the one who worksto decipher the message and
Ripley says let me give it ashot, and she deciphers it
enough to be like I think it's awarning, I'm going to go out
and let them know.
So Ash says like well, there'sno point, they'll be back by the
time you're suited up.
I wanted to bring that upbecause to me it shows the
(01:01:00):
spectrum of actions that cancontribute to rape culture and
like loss of bodily autonomy.
So like the, you know, I'mgoing to go out and let them
know.
Like he's like ah, don't bother, is a very minor action on his
part, in the same way that likeoh, I'm sure it's fine, would be
(01:01:22):
a minor action on on the partof someone who's like should I
check on her?
Or whatever, yeah.
Or like someone making anuntoward joke or something like
that.
Right.
So that that I think is reallyinteresting is that, like the
actions step up over time andthat's true of the actions that
(01:01:45):
encourage rape culture theactions that deny bodily
autonomy step up over time.
So there's plausibledeniability at one end of it,
because if he started off withtrying to kill Ripley, he
wouldn't have gotten away withit, right?
Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
The other thing that I forgot that you brought in is
the indictment of capitalism andthe role that capitalism plays
I.
There's an indictment ofcapitalism full stop.
There's also the capitalismlayered into the denial of
bodily autonomy in today's world.
That that both are true, bothand both are there in like baked
(01:02:23):
into the this fictional futureworld.
Yeah, I'm gonna go re-watch it.
It's so good.
I want to have a film fest.
I want to do like all threeyeah, I I've.
Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
I've only ever seen the first one and part of me
kind of doesn't want to keepwatching.
Oh, really, you haven't seenthe others.
I haven't seen the others.
Yeah, it was funny because myhusband has seen aliens.
Speaker 2 (01:02:49):
Like how have you seen the sequel, but you hadn't
seen the original uh, in numberthree, which I know why dad
didn't want to watch it, butlike there is something really
really powerful about the scenewhen it's not our ripley, but we
think it's our ripley actuallyencounters the cloned versions
of her that are all, like youknow, have like deformations and
things and like, but they'rekept alive for science, I guess,
(01:03:12):
and it is deeply powerful anddeeply disturbing, anyway.
So I'm definitely going to reada lot and I don't remember what
I'm bringing you next week.
So let me take a quick look atmy calendar.
Right, I remember now, nextweek we are going to do
(01:03:33):
something completely different.
No, not Monty Python, mr Mom.
Speaker 1 (01:03:39):
Oh, oh.
Do you know that I wasterrified of washing machines
for years because of that movie?
Speaker 2 (01:03:46):
No, I do remember, though, being like you're not
going to burn Emily's blank.
You're my pillow, are you?
Speaker 1 (01:03:54):
I kind of remember that, I kind of remember that.
Speaker 2 (01:03:57):
No, you can keep it.
He should have kept it.
Speaker 1 (01:04:04):
Yeah, all right, sounds good.
See you then.
Speaker 2 (01:04:08):
Do you like stickers?
Sure, we all do.
If you head over toguygirlsmediacom slash, sign up
and share your address with us,we'll send you a sticker.
It really is that easy, butdon't wait, there's a limited
quantity.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
(01:04:29):
Is Professor Umlaut by KevinMacLeod from Incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what'sin your head?
Now, the idea that this film is actually an
allegory for, rather thanabortion, forced birth,
anti-abortion is something thatI don't know people talk about
as much, and I really want tokind of like focus on what I see
there and why I think that isso important and so interesting.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
What others might deem stupid shit.
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
We're sisters, tracy and Emily,collectively known as the Guy
Girls.
Every week, we take turnsre-watching, researching and
reconsidering beloved media andsharing what we learn.
Come overthink with us and ifyou get value from the show,
(00:41):
please consider supporting us.
You can become a patron onPatreon or send us a one-time
tip through Ko-fi.
Both links are in the shownotes and thanks.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,Because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
On today's episode, I am goingto be sharing my deep thoughts
about the 1979 classic Alienwith my sister, Tracy Guy-Decker
, and with you.
Let's dive in.
All right, Tracy.
(01:13):
I know you've seen it.
We have referenced it multipletimes.
So, many times, but tell mewhat you know.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Remember love about Alien me what you know remember,
love about alien.
So this is one that like,though I associate it with dad,
not because he showed it to us,because I think this is one he
actually protected us from, likenot so much, but alien yes.
So, uh, I didn't see it until Iwas close to it being an adult,
(01:45):
if not an adult, and so I don'thave like like old, old
memories with it.
But I friggin love Ripley, likeadore her, like she's one of
those fictional characters thatI don't know if I want to be her
(02:06):
or be with her, and uh, yeah,so I also like think, well, we
have referenced this film manytimes on deep thoughts, in fact,
in the show notes I'll go backand see if I can find all the
times we've referenced it andlink to those other shows.
But the thing that really Ithink one of the reasons she's
(02:32):
such a touchstone for me as afictional female character, is
that she's brilliant, she'stough, she's right, tough, she's
right.
Nobody listens to her.
She's the only one who survives, and yet she is not sexualized,
(02:53):
like there's that one momentwhere she's in her underwear,
but even when she's on herunderwear, it's like to make her
more vulnerable, I think, notto sexualize her, which is so,
so rare, like it is so hard forme to find in my memory bank a
badass woman, fictionalcharacter in, with whom, in whom
(03:14):
I can self insert, who isn'thyper-sexualized, or at least
somewhat like, like Ripley isn'teven.
It's not that she's nothypersexualized, she's not
sexualized.
And one doesn't realize thatone is missing, that until you
get it and you're like, oh, andit's like so refreshing.
(03:41):
So anyway, that was a lot morethan what I usually give.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
And then, what do you ?
Speaker 2 (03:44):
remember, but like she's just really, really
important to me.
So I will just close by sayingthis movie is way scarier than
ordinarily Tracy Guy Deckerwould be comfortable with.
So that's just a testament tohow awesome Sigourney Weaver as
Ripley is, and I'll leave it atthat.
Yeah, so we've talked about ita bunch of times, so I think I
(04:05):
know why we're talking about ittoday.
But tell me, why are we talkingabout it today?
Speaker 1 (04:09):
So, like you, I associate it with dad in part
because there was in downtownBaltimore there's the Senator
Theater.
It's a classic movie theaterwith like single screen,
gorgeous old theater, and dad onmore than one occasion would
talk about how the bestcinematic experience of his life
was going to the senatortheater when they did a revival
(04:32):
double feature of alien and thenaliens, and it was before the
third movie came out, which Ialso recall dad hating.
He never saw it.
He never saw it.
But oh, he had strong opinionsbecause no, that never kept him
from having strong opinions.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
He was very classically male in that way.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
but I'll, honestly, I'll give him this one because,
uh, the all aliens, um ripley istrying to protect a child, newt
um, and at the end they they gointo like the sleep stasis
thing, and because it's sixyears between films, like they
can't have Newt in the next film.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah, they just kill her off while she's sleeping.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Yeah and Dad.
Like Dad would have acceptedany other way of writing her out
, but the fact that, like shespent two hours fighting aliens,
like two hours of film timefighting aliens to protect this
child and they just kill her inher sleep, no, and like the
franchise was dead to him afterthat.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
I don't know that I could have pulled that out of my
memory bank before you said it,but now that you're saying it I
very clearly remember it.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
So I showed last year I showed uh tracy, or maybe the
year before um the the tv, themovie nope, which came out long
after dad had passed away.
And uh, one of the things aboutthe movie is it's an indictment
of how children, child actorsare, are used in in hollywood.
Uh, and dad had very strongopinions about children in films
(06:09):
and child actors and so likehis and even fictional children.
So I mean, that's what.
That's the reason why he hatedum the world, according to garp,
is because of what happens to afictional child and so like.
It's something that I justassociate so strongly with dad
(06:30):
and you know, dad havingopinions about things he's never
seen.
Generally I'm not a fan of that.
This I kind of I'll give him.
So I have similar strongopinions about the.
Uh, the sex in the city reboot.
So that's that's uh.
(06:52):
Part of the reason why I wantedto talk about it was because of
dad.
And then, of course, what wetalk about about how, what a
badass ripley is.
The film came out the year Iwas born and feeling like
there's so few, there's so fewfemale heroes like Ripley,
(07:14):
there's so few and far betweenwhen this came out.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
Yeah, you never existed in a world in which
there wasn't a Ripley.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Yeah exactly, exactly .
So I mean, that's it's just.
It's both amazing andhorrifying.
So that's that's part of why Iwant to talk about it.
Then the fact that and I Idon't think that Ridley Scott or
the um, the writers of thescript necessarily knew this was
(07:44):
what they were doing, but theyhave written an amazing allegory
for rape and abortion,specifically like body autonomy,
and then add in like anindictment of capitalism and how
it fits within that, and sothat is also why I'm very
(08:07):
interested in this film.
And then talking about.
We've talked multiple timesabout storytelling and how
making a change after you'vewritten the story can be so
beneficial.
And in originally, ripley waswritten to be a man.
Now they didn't get to thepoint where they were casting
(08:30):
and they cast Sigourney Weaverwhen it had been Elliot Ripley
instead of Ellen Ripley, and itwasn't that it was multiple
drafts before they got thecasting.
So they knew Ripley was a womanbefore they were doing the
casting call.
But still there's a lot thatwas left in there, because the
assumptions about a malecharacter are different from
(08:54):
what the assumptions about afemale character would be had
they written her as Ellen Ripleyfrom the very beginning, right,
right.
So and that aspect ofstorytelling.
And then there's a couple ofthings that I learned about why
things are the way they are,that were like the authors
trying to solve problems thatthey've written themselves into
(09:18):
and like it's just gorgeous,it's lovely, and I love how that
happens.
Like, oh, we've writtenourselves into a corner, how do
we get out of it?
I love those.
So that's another aspect that Iwant to talk about.
So there's so much in here.
This might just be me.
You know, 50 minutes of megushing.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
All right, well, I look forward to the gush, but
start us off.
Remind me of the plot.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Okay, gonna try to be succinct.
So we are introduced to theNostromo, which is a commercial
spaceship that is returning frommining some sort of ore on its
way back to Earth.
There are seven people on theship.
There's the Captain, dallas,who's played by Tom Skerritt.
(10:11):
There is the second in command,kane, who is played by John
Hurt.
Third in command is Ripley,played by Sigourney Weaver.
We have the science officer,ash, played by Ian Holm.
We have Lambert, the only otherwoman played by Veronica
Cartwright it's not entirelyclear to me what exactly her
(10:32):
role is.
And then we have the twoengineers, parker, played by
Yafit Kato, and then Rhett,played by Harry Dean Stanton.
Now, quick, interesting thingabout Yafit Kato.
I was looking him up because Iwatched with my spouse.
He's like I recognize him.
What do I recognize him from?
And he was on Homicide Life onthe Streets.
He is a black actor.
(10:52):
His father was from Cameroonand I was like, oh weird, his
father's name was Avram.
And my husband was like was hisdad Jewish?
And then I looked it up yes,his dad was Jewish and his
mother converted to Judaism.
And so Yafet Kodo, in hisWikipedia page, talks about his
like study of Hebrew and was apracticing Jew.
(11:14):
So cool, not expected he wasMikvacha.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
So those are the seven individuals on the ship.
And then there is also a shipcat named Jonesy or Jones.
So they have been woken up fromstasis.
They believe it's because theyare nearly at Earth.
And then the captain Dallas.
There's a for-yours-eyes-onlymessage from Mother, which is
(11:44):
what they call the ship'scomputer, and it's because it's
M-U-T-H-U-R but they call theship's computer Mother, and she
has a female voice.
Turns out that they are notnear Earth, they are a while
away.
But they intercepted a message.
(12:06):
It's unclear what it is, butit's repeating every 12 seconds.
It's clearly some sort ofintelligent life and they have
been woken to go investigate,interested in going.
All they care about is gettingtheir money and getting home.
(12:30):
But Ash, the science officer,points out that part of their
contract is they are required tocheck out these kinds of
distress calls or whatever theyare, or else they forfeit all of
their money.
So the Nostromo, their ship ishuge and there is like a landing
ship that undocks from it thatthey take down to the surface.
The shuttlecraft yeah, it's theshuttle, basically, although
there's a separate thing that isa shuttle later.
(12:53):
That's like a lifeboat shuttle,okay, and whatever it is, they
dock powers the entire thing.
So they land on the planet andthere is some sort of something
breaks on the ship in a veryspectacular way and it's not
clear how it happens or whathappens.
But they are going to have todry dock the ship, which means
(13:14):
like clear everything out to fixeverything.
So the captain, dallas, secondin command, kane and then
Lambert all go to investigatethe distress call in spacesuits.
What they discover is this kindof phallic shaped spaceship.
There is a fossilized,destroyed alien creature sitting
(13:37):
in like a captain's chair.
They continue examining thingsand they find this hold, this
cargo hold full of what appearsto be like eggs.
Kane is down investigating byhimself and one of the eggs like
bursts open and like jumps onhim.
Whatever's inside jumps on him.
Meanwhile, on the ship, ripleyis trying to decode the signal
(14:04):
that's been sent every 12seconds and determines that it
seems like it's not an SOS, itseems like it might be a warning
.
Dallas and Lambert come backwith Kane, who is unconscious
and he has been attacked.
There's something on him.
Ripley refuses to open theairlock, saying like you know,
(14:26):
quarantine procedures 24 hours.
Dallas is saying like I don'tknow Kane's going to live 24
hours and Ripley's like I'msorry, like there's, there's
four of us in here.
We might all die.
Ash, however, is right by wherethe airlock is, and so he
manually opens it and lets themin.
They bring Kane into theinfirmary and they discover that
(14:48):
he has what is now known as theface hugger, with this creepy
creature thing over his facethat has something down his
throat.
He appears to be in some sortof coma, and Ash thinks that it
may be delivering oxygen to him.
They try to cut a piece of itoff and the blood drips down,
(15:08):
and it turns out to be like thisextremely corrosive acid.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Oh, I remember that it goes through like multiple
levels of the ship.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Yes, yes, ripley goes and basically gives Ash what
for about his role in lettingthem in and putting them all in
danger.
And Ash basically says like myjob as a science officer, let me
do my job.
They are continuing to work onfixing the ship.
(15:36):
They get it fixed and are backup to the main part of the
Nostromo, to redock there, andcalls dallas to come back to the
uh infirmary because thefacehugger is all of a sudden
gone.
It's no longer on kane's face.
So they go looking for it, liketry to figure out where it went
(15:56):
.
In the infirmary they keepleaving doors open.
It's just like what are youdoing?
It ends up falling fromoverhead onto Ripley but it
appears to be dead.
Dallas wanted to put it in theairlock and blast it into space
and Ash, the science officer,overrode him.
They don't know what it is,they don't know if it's carrying
(16:25):
some sort of disease, theydon't know what's going on.
And Dallas is just not willingto butt heads with Ash over it
and he basically says to Ripley,like look, I'm the captain, but
this is under the purview ofthe science officer, I'm not
going to fight him on it, I justwant to get home.
At this point we learn that theyare 10 months away from Earth.
(16:48):
They're still monitoring Kane.
He's still in the coma.
Then a little bit later hewakes up and he appears to be
fine.
So they let him know.
Okay, we're about to go backinto stasis.
He's like can I have somethingto eat first?
And they're like, oh,absolutely sure, we're about to
go back into stasis.
He's like, can I have somethingto eat first?
And they're like, oh,absolutely sure, we're gonna
have, you know, our last meal.
They're all sitting together,and that is when we have the,
(17:10):
the very famous chest bursterburster scene.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
yeah, so they blast port cane's body out into space
and then wait for that, becausethe little like hello my baby,
hello my honey guy, like runningaround the ship right.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Yes, uh, it's also.
They don't have a place for abody.
I mean, I think that's alsojust that's what you do with a
dead body if someone dies, it'sprotocol.
So they end up they go lookingfor they, because now they're
six and they break into groupsof three and three.
They're not sure what they needto do, but they are going to
(17:49):
try to catch it.
And it was small, I mean, itwas like burst out of a human
being.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Yeah, which is why I compared it to the dancing frog.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Well that actually you did that because that's what
they did in Spaceballs.
Right, you're right, and Ireally wish I had seen Alien
before I saw Spaceballs.
So it is, ripley is with Rhettand Parker, so the two engineers
(18:19):
, and Dallas is with Lambert andAsh.
We follow Ripley's group.
They have something that Ashhas come up with that basically
detects motion.
So they are following somethingthat detect motion.
Turns out to be the cat that isterrified and runs off because
Brett allowed it to get away,because he's like it was just
(18:39):
the cat, because he was preparedto catch, and they're like,
yeah, but we still need to catchit because it's going to keep
setting off the motion detector.
So he goes after the cat.
He finds a shed skin, which isthe only indication that we have
that the xenomorph is nowbigger than it used to be.
(19:02):
I see he is able to find thecat and is trying to grab him
and the cat starts hissing atsomething behind him and of
course, it's the xenomorph thatis now seven feet tall and kills
him.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Oh wow, it grew quick , it grew quick it grew quick,
they reconvene, they realizethat the xenomorph does
xenomorph come fromi?
Speaker 1 (19:28):
don't know that's just what the, what the uh
franchise calls them.
Okay, so I mean I'm guessingxeno means like foreign and
morph means to, to change, soit's a changeable alien.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Okay, cool, all right .
Speaker 1 (19:44):
So seven foot tall changeable alien, yes, so they
determined that it is using theair shafts to get around.
And, remember, this is anabsolutely massive cargo ship,
so, like, trying to find it isdifficult.
So they think, okay, well,since we know that it's using
the air shafts, we can shut itoff, because we can close up air
(20:06):
shafts.
And so they are going to try toforce it into an airlock and
then blast it out into space.
But how do they force it?
Like they don't know exactlywhat to do.
They can't shoot it because itsblood can destroy the hull.
Yeah, Also, it's a spaceship andlike like you don't want holes,
yeah.
So basically they they haveflamethrowers.
(20:29):
They're like you know whatabout temperature?
It's probably not gonna be okaywith fire.
So lambert asks who's gonna goon the air shafts and ripley
says I will and dallas says no,I will go, and that feels to be
in part his acknowledgement thathe was wrong earlier.
(20:50):
That that's sort of him this ishis fault.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yes, this is his penance.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Yes, yeah, so they are again have some sort of like
motion detector, the like x-raymotion detector thing.
It's very 1970s technology butit fits, because this is such a
like this is a blue collar ship.
It's like this is nobody caresabout this ship, Just as long as
(21:17):
it works.
They're there to get in, getout, get their war, whatever
Utilitarian.
Yes, so they're.
They're trying to keep track ofit and helping the captain find
where the alien is, and theyknow that it's nearby, but he
can't see it.
They don't know what's going on.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
And then he's screaming and he has died as far
as I can tell, we don't see ithappen.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Oh, that's terrifying .
So that means that there's nowonly four.
It's Ripley who is now thecommanding officer, because the
captain and the second incommand are both dead Ash, the
science officer, parker theengineer and Lambert I think
she's the pilot, but it's notentirely clear.
Anyway, they're like okay, sowhat do we do?
(22:02):
Nowley says let's do like,let's continue with, uh, with
the captain's plan.
And Lambert is like no, let'sgo in the, the escape shuttle,
and take our chances.
And Ripley says the escapeshuttle isn't built for four
people, we can't do that.
(22:22):
She says look, I'm the captainnow, so that means that I can
talk directly to mother and getthe for your eyes only stuff.
So I'm going to go do that andsee if that can help us figure
out what we need to do.
She goes into, like, the privatechamber that has that and again
, just as it did with Dallas, itdoesn't really give her much
information, and so she is nottrusting Ash, and has not been
(22:43):
trusting him for a while, andstarts asking more questions
like okay, what's going on withthe science officer?
Turns out that he has a secretmission that is for his eyes
only, and she says, okay,override, because I'm the
captain, which I found it kindof cool that she's allowed to do
(23:04):
the override, cause you know,like that, that's one of those
things where, like yeah it,mother, really is just a
computer program, so there mustbe overrides, and things like
that.
It turns out that his missionis to bring back a living sample
of this organism and all otherorders are rescinded and the
(23:24):
crew is expendable.
Oh what?
So she is.
And the other thing I likeabout Ripley, especially in this
film I haven't seen furtheralong because I feel like it got
more and more like stoic actionmovie but she's crying and that
(23:47):
is a very human response andmakes sense, and she looks up
and ash is in this, for youreyes, only booth with her that
he's not supposed to be able toget into how did he get in there
?
because he is the only one thatthe, the, he's like the real.
(24:07):
Yeah, he's really the one who'sreally in charge of the ship.
We had learned earlier.
Because Ripley asks Dallas,what do you know about Ash?
And he's like well, I workedwith a different science officer
for like my last three missions, who was replaced two days
before we left with Ash.
(24:29):
So ash starts to say there's,there's an explanation.
And she like runs away from himand he starts attacking her and
like is something weird's goingon with him?
Like he's, he's making weirdfaces and noises.
And then he starts like likesweating or bleeding something
white and is trying to um killher in the weirdest way possible
.
He's got like like he has findsa magazine, he like rolls it up
and he's like putting it overher mouth.
(24:50):
It's very bizarre.
So Parker and Lambert arrive andthey end up like fighting with
him, uh, and like I don'tremember exactly how they do it,
but like hitting his head sothat it falls off.
It turns out that ash is arobot, weird.
(25:11):
So they, they get himcompletely like turned off, like
destroyed, basically.
But then you see ripley is likeall right, let's, let's uh
reattach him and um parker'slike why she says he might know
how to destroy these things.
So we need to question him.
And so that's that amazingscene where it's just like his
(25:35):
head up and he's covered in thatwhite gunk that's on the inside
of him.
Yeah, and he doesn't give themany information about how to
destroy the alien, doesn't givethem any information about how
to destroy the alien.
He talks about this is hismission to bring it back and
that everyone's expendable.
And he says something about howthe alien is like this perfect
(25:58):
survivor.
And Parker says well, it soundslike you admire them.
And he says I admire theirpurity, I admire that they are
all about survival, with noquestion of morality or
conscience and I just wanted toput a pin in that because it's
part of what I want to talkabout later.
And he ends by saying I can'ttell you what your odds are, but
(26:26):
you have my sympathies.
I can't tell you what your oddsare, but you have my sympathies
.
Before they turn them off, andthen Parker uses flamethrower to
completely destroy everything.
That like destroy ash, so it'sjust melted metal and everything
.
(26:47):
So they decide to go withLambert's plan and get on the
shuttle.
Now there's only three.
Now there's only three of themand chances are better anyway,
like you know, they'll taketheir chances.
So, parker, a full 10 monthsfrom Earth.
Yes, ripley sends Parker andLambert to get coolant from the
engine room.
Not entirely clear what that'sneeded for, but apparently it's
needed.
What they're going to do isthey're going to get into the
(27:08):
shuttle and they're going to setoff the self-destruct of the
Nostromo.
The self-destruct sequence is10 minutes long.
After five minutes you can nolonger turn it off.
While Ripley is getting theshuttle ready and getting ready
to do the self-destruct mode,she hears Jonesy meowing and so
(27:28):
she goes after to find Jones.
This was a point where myspouse was going like I don't
think that that's like that'snot the right thing to do, like
the cat the cat die.
Yeah, and the cat won't sufferwhen the ship explodes.
At that moment, like she has alittle bit of time and my I
(27:49):
argued that, having seen whatAsh is willing to do to people
who have nothing to do with thisand is willing to allow them to
die, I can see someone who hasa conscience being like I will
not be like that.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
I can take five minutes to look for the cat
Swinging the pendulum too farthe other way, yes.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
She manages to get the cat, she hears Lambert and
Parker yelling.
The alien has cornered Lambertand Parker is yelling at her to
get out of the way because he'sgot the flamethrower but it's
going to kill Lambert if he usesit at that moment and she is
just frozen.
(28:33):
She is frozen and like, like,like the fight, flight or freeze
, she's free.
And Parker eventually is likewell, I can't, I can't leave her
, I can't, I can't fight a fire.
And so he tries to fight thealien with like, not
hand-to-hand comment but andthey both die, both Lambert and
(28:55):
Parker.
So Ripley hears that she knowswhat's going on, so she goes to
the bridge to set off theself-destruct and she gets that
going and she's heading back tothe shuttle with Jones in a
carrier and she runs into thealien that is in between her and
the shuttle.
So she goes back to the bridgeto try to shut off the
(29:19):
self-destruct because she needsmore time to be able to get
around the alien and is too late, is unable to do that.
And is too late, is unable todo that.
So she runs, sees no sign ofthe alien at that point, gets
herself and Jones onto theshuttle, is able to get away
(29:39):
just in time before the Nostromocompletely blows up.
At that point she's like allright, we're safe, jones and I.
She puts the cat in the stasismachine that she's going to
share with the cat and starts toget undressed.
It's the point, you remember.
When she realizes the alien ison the shuttle with her, it has
kind of like hidden in like this, like bulkhead, so she shuts
(30:04):
herself in like a closet wherethere's a space suit comes out.
And this part I had completelyforgotten and it is so cool.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
It's like a forklift.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
No, that's in Aliens.
Oh, that's in the second one forgoing like, I think, going on
planet, I don't think it's evenfor like spacewalks, I think
it's.
So she puts it on, puts on thehelmet, and she is singing you
Are my Lucky Star, and it'samazing.
It's amazing because she'sclearly terrified and she's
(30:41):
doing this so that, like, she'sgot something to focus on and
she is able to flush the alienout of the bulkhead.
She buckles herself in and shehas this like harpoon and she
like shoots the alien with aharpoon and opens the hatch so
(31:02):
that it is forced out, but it'sstill attached to the harpoon,
which is like stuck on her aswell, and so, like she's closing
the hatch and it's still liketo the harpoon, which is like
stuck on her as well, and so,like she's closing the hatch and
it's still like able to come in, and so she, she fires the, the
rocket boosters, and it burnsup the alien's body and then she
is finally safe and it endswith her making a like a ship
(31:24):
log, saying like this is iswhat's happening, we are heading
this direction, and she ispetting the cat and feel safe
and that's the end of the film.
So good, so Passes.
Bechdel, lambert and Ripleytalk to each other about all
(31:48):
kinds of stuff, which is greatall right.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
And so, listeners, as a reminder, the bechdel test.
We ask ourselves threequestions.
Are there at least two femalecharacters who both have names?
Do they talk to each other?
Do they talk to each otherabout something other than a man
or a boy?
Speaker 1 (32:16):
So I want to get into now.
But like alien has been talkedabout and discussed and
dissected so many times and solike I kind of want to talk
about what it meant to me,rather than like reinvent the
wheel of the things that peoplehave said many, many times.
Sure, like reinvent the wheelof the things that people have
said many, many times, sure, soI can remember learning.
So I saw the movie for thefirst time.
I think I was in college it'sbeen about 25 years and I
(32:38):
remember learning.
Not long after that people oftensaw it as an allegory for rape
is very understandable, in thatKane is attacked and impregnated
against his will and you knowthe look of the alien, which was
(32:59):
designed by HR Giger andactually originally, apparently,
ridley Scott.
The director had to reallyreally push for them, push for
the studio to go with thesedesigns because they looked so
sexual and they have in facttoned them down a bit.
But the alien looks veryphallic and organic and there's
(33:24):
a lot in there.
Also, if you remember, the kindof glistening thing on the jaws
was KY Jelly that they used forthat which is entirely a
special effects decision.
(33:46):
that makes sense, but it alsojust kind of adds to it.
So I think all of that isreally really fascinating and
it's something that has beenwell documented.
Now, the idea that this film isactually an allegory for,
actually, rather than abortion,forced birth, anti-abortion, is
something that I don't knowpeople talk about as much, and I
(34:07):
really want to kind of likefocus on what I see there and
why I think that is so importantand so interesting.
So there are several thingsthat kind of add to that idea.
First of all, there's a lot inthere Like the fact that the
computer is called Mother.
When Dallas is in the airshaftss, the I can't think what
(34:30):
they're called when you closesomething, that the hatches.
The hatches are, um, they'resphincters, they dilate and he
is climbing through a canal,basically like a birth canal,
and these, these hatches are,are closing behind him.
They're dilating, closed,undilating, what's the opposite
(34:53):
of dilating I don't knowshrinking, um, so there's.
There's that aspect of it likethere's.
There's quite a bit that haveto do with pregnancy within the
film, and in fact Ash refers tothe alien that burst out of
(35:17):
Kane's chest as Kane's son.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
Weird and Ash was the robot science officer.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
Yes, so all of that tells me that pregnancy is very
much is intentional.
It seems like Now I have noidea if Ridley Scott or I think
O'Bannon was the name of thescreenwriter and Shusett, I have
no idea if they intended this,but there are a number of other
things that make it clear to methat this is a very good
(35:49):
allegory for the modernanti-abortion movement, because
we have this, the corporationthat is prioritizing this life
form, this potential life, overthe lives of people who are
(36:12):
already there.
Yeah, they're expendable,they're expendable.
(36:32):
So, in the same way is similarto people overriding the ability
to get plan B or or birthcontrol, even it's.
It's like you know, ripley ismaking the responsible choice,
(36:56):
prudent, the prudent responsiblechoice and is not allowed.
The fact that Ash is played by aman, I think is is really
important, agreed.
And then the thing that reallygot me.
So we see ash at one point.
Um, he eats, we see that.
But there's one point where heis alone in the infirmary and
(37:19):
he's drinking what looks likemilk and and I remember thinking
like that's really weird, like,you know, you'd think it would
be coffee or something like that, and that is again seems like a
very intentional choice.
And then when he is destroyedand he is covered in white,
white is often associated withpurity or motherhood because of
(37:45):
milk, because of milk.
And at every point Ash acts asif he is doing the right thing
and when he says I admire theirpurity.
They are survival machines thathave nothing to do with
(38:06):
morality, conscience, and thatvery much reminds me of the
kinds of arguments you get fromanti-abortionists when they say,
like we must protect the unbornbecause they are pure, they
have no one to speak for them,or conscience of what is
(38:28):
happening to the pregnant personwho, for whatever reason, feels
the need to terminate thepregnancy.
And so I doubt that it wasintentional in terms of
anti-abortion, in part becausein 1979, the anti-abortion
(38:48):
movement wasn't what it is today, but it has so much resonance
it is very clearly.
Ash basically says I can't tellyou what your odds are, but you
have my sympathies.
That feels very similar to well, have the baby, I don't care.
Once you've had the baby, Idon't care.
Once it's once, once you've hadthe baby.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Yeah, I don't care what happens.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Yeah, and people who criticize an intention on
purpose and reasonably criticizethe anti-abortion movement.
They talk about how the unbornare the perfect people to
protect, because they ask fornothing.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
And they can't tell you what they want or critique
the ways in which you speak ontheir behalf.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
And so, with all of that, it makes it even more
amazing and important andnecessary that the the Ripley is
our hero.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Yeah, yeah, and that she lives.
Yeah, you know it's interestingtoo.
Like I know we're just talkingabout the first movie, but you
talk about the bodily autonomyand whether or not it was on
purpose.
In the third movie there's thatall like a whole host of
ripleys, because they've beentrying to clone her with the
combined dna or whatever and oneof them says to like the hero,
(40:14):
sort of stoic action figureversion.
Kill me right, like, so, like,talk about, like an indictment
of um of the what's the word I'mlooking for of sealing
someone's bodily autonomy yeah,yeah but that and that's like
later in the franchise, not whatthis film is doing.
But I think it does corroborateyour thesis here that it's
(40:37):
there because the the laterfilmmakers I don't even know if
it's the same people or not likesaw it and like pulled on that
thread.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Yes, yes, and then like this is so silly.
But because my spouse and I hadthis back and forth about the
cat and I understand where he'scoming from, because he was
saying like Ripley throughout isbeing very responsible.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
And then she now, at the time she didn't have
anything she had to do at thatmoment, so she did have a couple
of minutes to like okay, I'mgoing to try to get the cat.
But I was also thinking aboutthe fact that women are supposed
to like get rid of their catswhen they're pregnant because of
the possibility oftoxoplasmosis.
Now it's honestly, that's mereaching, yeah that's just
(41:28):
horrific and the presence of thecat in the film is a little
like.
My spouse was like why is therea cat on the ship?
And my thinking is it's kind oflike old-fashioned, like ships
on the sea where they'd have acat to take care of rodent
population and like who knows,they might have a similar sort
of problem on spaceships, sortof problem on on spaceships.
(41:53):
So he was like well it's,there's the, the save the cat
film writing, uh, screenwritingtrope, and I'm sure this is
where that came from.
It does give her a reason tolike lose focus at that end and
and and all of that.
But I also really do like myinterpretation in that like this
(42:14):
may not you convinced me, yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
You convinced me with it that that she just I mean
it's not just her physicalsurvival Like she's also like,
especially since we saw her cry,right, we saw it move her
emotionally and upset her, andso this is, and and it makes
sense to me that a manifestationof her rejection of that truth
(42:40):
that made her cry would be totry and save the cat.
That actually, that jibes forme.
I believe that as aninterpretation, as a motivation
for that character who you'reright Like has your spouse is
right that she has been like no,you can't come back in to three
humans, so why would she goafter the cat?
(43:03):
But I actually think that yourexplanation does make it make
sense within character.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Yeah, and I feel like it also it fits.
This is the same like.
She is very good at her job,she is smart, she's right, she,
she has focus, but she is alsohuman and so she cries.
At that point she goes afterthe cat and then she sings you
(43:28):
are my lucky star, as she'strying to kill the alien and and
ensure her own survival.
And, like I, I see all of thatas part of like.
That is the ripley that peeksthrough when she cannot be the
stoic action figure right,that's actually what makes her a
(43:48):
fully formed human, yes, being,and not just an action figure
yes, yes exactlyyeah, that's nice, that's really
nice and that's that's alsowhat's great about it, because
when we had like girl power inthe 90s, it wasn't a full human
being like, it was someone whocould like fight and be
(44:11):
sexualized, but then there wasno like you don't know what song
her parents sang to her whenshe was scared at night, you
know.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Right?
No, for sure.
No, she sprung fully formed,wearing her wonder bra from the
mind of Marvel or whatever, yeah, yeah totally, Totally Well.
I think this is actually agreat segue to the last point
(44:54):
that I want you to explore alittle bit before we wrap up, to
learn from that and what effectthat has.
I'd love, I'd love to like, doa little bit of.
Speaker 1 (44:57):
I think that's part of why she's fully formed human
being, so let's pull on thatthread a little bit more so, um
and we've talked about thisbefore about about how I am a
big believer in waiting untilthe story is written to then
change something essential likegender, race, age, because those
(45:22):
are the sort of and when I sayessential, I don't mean that
they are essential, but they arethe things that we have
preconceived notions and biasesabout.
Yeah, so it's why I love theidea of casting a woman as James
Bond.
Right, because if this had beenwritten as like from the very
(45:46):
beginning, where Ripley was awoman, it seems very unlikely
that she would have been thefully formed character that we
see Totally.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
She would have taken her clothes off a lot earlier.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
Oh, and I will say, as you mentioned, that moment
when she is not dressed, I hadremembered when I saw it,
feeling like I really wish theydidn't have to have that, but
seeing it this time around,recognizing you're absolutely
right.
It is about vulnerabilityrather than it being about
sexuality.
And so there were some things,for Ridley Scott apparently had
(46:20):
wanted the alien to like observeher and be like attracted or
something.
Ew, yeah, gross, ridley Scottattracted or or something.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
Ew yeah, gross and no .
Well, I mean, hey, she'sfucking prey what I mean he did.
Speaker 1 (46:38):
He, he did have that both end in blade runner.
That was ridley scott as well.
He also had originally thoughtabout having ripley die and the
alien like mimic her voice,which a completely different
movie, like it just doesn't.
That doesn't even fit.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
And all of that was once Ripley was a woman, right
right, right, um, yeah, likebeauty tamed the beast or
something with the mimicking hervoice.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
Yeah, gross, yeah, yeah, no, no, my recollection of
it and it's been it's beenprobably 10 years since I've
seen it yeah, probably 10 yearssince I've seen it.
But my recollection of it wasreally that it was about her
being more vulnerable becauseshe thought she was safe.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
Yes, and she's, definitely she's wearing like
utilitarian undergarments.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
Yeah, yeah, my recollection is like kind of
granny panties and a tank.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
Yeah, it's the.
The underpants aren't, aren'tquite, they're just.
They're what the company givesyou.
Speaker 2 (47:42):
Yeah, they're not lingerie.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
Yeah yeah, they're underwear and they don't fit her
that well, which is part of thereason why it's like this is
what the company gives you, so Ithink that that is like this is
one of the best examples of whyI am such a believer in that.
I think we also need to writeoriginal stories.
Speaker 2 (48:08):
We need both.
Speaker 1 (48:14):
We need both.
We need both and in doing alittle bit of research last
night, this is one of threetimes Sigourney Weaver has taken
a part that was originallywritten as a male character.
No, kidding.
Yeah, the other two were moviesI'm not familiar with, so I'll
include it in the show notesbecause it was just like oh,
I'll have to go watch those, butthey're none of her iconic
characters.
Got it to go, go watch those,um, but they're none of her like
iconic characters.
(48:34):
Got it?
The other writing thing that Iwant to mention that I said like
they wrote themselves into acorner oh, yeah, yeah, yeah so
the reason why the blood is acidis because they had realized
they didn't know why theycouldn't Cut it off.
Cut it off Well, I mean likeonce it's the seven foot tall
alien why they couldn't attackit.
Speaker 2 (48:56):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
With something more like, even with the flame
thrower and stuff like that,they were afraid to like
actually burn it, unless thealien was like just this
invincible thing.
They're like no, we don't wantit to be invincible, it's
organic.
But we want there to be areason why they can't just like
go at it with machetes orwhatever.
Yeah, it's because it'lldestroy the hall, uh, with its
(49:18):
blood.
And I was like I love that,because you create this iconic
scene where, like it's hissingthrough and you're like holy
crap, and they're liketerrifying, they're chasing it
down, like what do we do if itbreaches the hull?
But it also gives you this likevery intelligent and logical
(49:39):
reason why they can't just likebecause when they're trying to
catch it, like you know, we'lljust bring like knives and cut
it off and like, no, you can'tdo that.
Yeah, that's cool and that'sjust that's part of the writing
process, like similar to likethe process of like.
(50:01):
Both writers and non-writershave this sense that you like
write a story and that's it,it's done Right, writers should
know better, but they oftendon't because, like, we are so
hard on ourselves andnon-writers, it's understandable
, they don't realize.
But you find solutions toproblems and what is in our
(50:24):
sister podcast, lightbringers.
I've talked about how sometimesa writer will write something
that solves the writer's problem, not the character's problem,
and I hate that.
I hate it when it happensbecause I can see the writer at
work and the things that arelike the most satisfying
story-wise are ones that arelike character-driven or make
(50:47):
within the world, and so thatwas this was a make sense within
the world um, yeah, and it justmakes it make sense for us, as
the viewer reminds me of themoment in jaws when the
canisters, when he the he doesthe wrong knot and he says those
things will explode.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
you know, like, so, like it's, it's, it's the
Chekhov's gun, that doesn't sayhey, hey, it's me, I'm Chekhov's
gun.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
Hey, hey, hey, yes, it just is yes.
And it also this also gave the,the characters more opportunity
to be logical and rational.
Yeah, yeah, it's justgorgeously written and there are
(51:33):
.
You know, my spouse afterwardsbecause he had actually never
seen it was asking me he's likewell, why this particular you
know cargo ship?
And you know, is every scienceofficer on every ship owned by
the company a robot, or is itjust this one?
Did they know that they weregoing to be going by?
(51:53):
Why not send?
And I'm like, okay, you gotgood questions.
But I was like, neverunderestimate corporate greed.
He's like, no, no, no, I'm notdoing that.
And I was like and alsocorporate willingness to do
something stupid because ofcorporate greed.
So, like you know, they don'twant to send a ship specifically
(52:15):
.
But you know, if one of thepush for women to people to have
children against their will isthat we have more workers and we
have more people who arereliant on work to make sure
that they can survive, maybe,well, because abortion is always
(52:59):
legal for people who have money.
Speaker 2 (53:04):
Yeah, okay, so there's a lot here, oh, yeah,
here, yeah, so let me see what Ican do.
Um, so, this 1979 classic.
(53:25):
There has never been a world infor emily in which ripley
didn't exist, which is prettyfreaking cool.
I was only three.
So I think one of the reasonsthat this film has come up for
us before is because Ripley isthis badass female Cassandra in
a way, who says what's going tohappen.
(53:49):
She warns everybody.
Nobody believes her and theyall die and she doesn't, and
that's awesome.
But she was originally writtenas a man, and so that's the
reason that it's come up for usin deep thoughts in the past is
because this is this example ofthis amazing female character
who part of the reason, part ofthe Genesis of her amazingness,
(54:14):
is that she was originallywritten as a man, and so the
male writers writing it likeweren't limiting her with their
understanding of femaleness,with their understanding of
femaleness.
So that's the reason she's comeup before, and we talked about
(54:35):
that to a certain extent.
Some of the new things from thisconversation that came up that
you brought to this is that thisfilm has been seen by others as
a rape allegory, because Kane,who is the first guy to get the
face hugger, which I wanted toask, but I guess it doesn't
matter.
Like, wasn't he wearing a suitor something?
Speaker 1 (54:55):
It burned through his helmet.
Speaker 2 (54:57):
Oh right, cause he's got the acid thing.
Okay, so Kane was attacked andimpregnated against his will and
then the birth killed him.
And the echoes, the resonanceswith pregnancy and childbirth,
(55:21):
are clearly there andintentional, because we see at
one point Dallas moving throughthe air ducting with
sphincter-like hatches beforeand behind and the villainous
robot refers to the xenomorph asKane's son.
(55:46):
I bet there's some stuff in thenames too, by the way.
Oh yeah, yeah.
So this resonance there's somethere there and also probably
intentional.
The thing that maybe wasn'tintentional but still feels
deeply resonant and relevant,that you brought out of your
(56:07):
analysis here, is the ways inwhich the, the, the company, and
Ash, the the robots kind ofresonated at the same frequency
as today's anti-abortionmovement who, uh, speak for the
unborn and who protect them atall costs and treat the people
(56:31):
around them and the peoplecarrying the unborn as
completely expendable, and whoalso say at the end I don't know
what your odds are, but youhave my sympathy, and that's an
Emily Guy-Burken original rightthere and that's an Emily
(56:53):
Guy-Birkin original right there.
So that was, I think, a newkind of allegory that you pulled
out.
That could not have beenintentional?
I don't think.
In part, as you pointed out,because the anti-abortion
movement in 1979 wasn't what itis today.
That does not, in my opinion,take away the relevance and the
resonance there and the thingsthat we have to learn from it.
(57:17):
Right, some of the other one.
One other sort of storytellingnote that you brought out is the
way in which the aliens, acidicblood, was actually solving a
reader's problem or a viewer'sproblem, the writer solving a
writer's problem.
That was also a viewer'sproblem Because that fact not
(57:40):
only did it give us that amazing, iconic scene of the acidic
blood burning through the floor,multiple floors of the ship, it
also then created that extralayer of complication in
fighting this thing that ourheroes can't just fight it, they
have to be careful fighting itbecause its blood will destroy
the ship, which is reallyelegant and beautiful in terms
(58:03):
of like storytelling, craft andand and thinking through the
ways that that like solving thatproblem problem helps us to get
a better story and a moreinteresting kind of product at
the end.
We also we named the fact thatone of the things that's so
amazing and powerful aboutRipley as a female character is
(58:26):
that she is not sexualized.
She is a badass, fully formedhuman being who cries, who sings
, who goes after the cat eventhough it's maybe not the best
idea in terms of her survivaland is partially nude or at
least in a state of undress atone point, but not in a
(58:47):
sexualized way, simply in avulnerable way which I think in
contemporary cinematic universewe've forgotten, are two
different things.
Yeah, so that's really cool tohave that in Ripley.
I also named that.
Your point about sort of bodilyautonomy and the critique of
(59:10):
the theft of bodily autonomythat this film gives us again
that there's a there there,because later filmmakers in the
same franchise really show usthat with the clones of Ripley
who beg for death.
Let me see, I feel like who atwho beg for death?
(59:32):
Let me see, I feel like sopasses bechdel, I forgot about
that.
So cool passes bechdel, evenwith only two female characters,
which is with only two, but itpassed it.
They had many conversationsabout things besides men.
Ridley, scott, what the hellconsidered having the alien,
just like lurk and I don't know,lust after ripley?
(59:53):
Considered having her die andthen having it mimic her voice?
Considered having it lust atlike, like, clearly lust after
her in some sort of way, like ew, so glad that that didn't
happen.
Just have to say what?
Am I forgetting him so?
Speaker 1 (01:00:10):
there's the several like symbols and connections.
So the fact that the ship'scomputer is called mother yep um
, the fact that ash isassociated with like milk and
white and and like purity, eventhough he is evil.
One thing I didn't mention, butthat I think is also
interesting and important, isAsh uses a number of different
(01:00:34):
tactics to get what he's hopingfor.
So when he is the one who worksto decipher the message and
Ripley says let me give it ashot, and she deciphers it
enough to be like I think it's awarning, I'm going to go out
and let them know.
So Ash says like well, there'sno point, they'll be back by the
time you're suited up.
I wanted to bring that upbecause to me it shows the
(01:01:00):
spectrum of actions that cancontribute to rape culture and
like loss of bodily autonomy.
So like the, you know, I'mgoing to go out and let them
know.
Like he's like ah, don't bother, is a very minor action on his
part, in the same way that likeoh, I'm sure it's fine, would be
(01:01:22):
a minor action on on the partof someone who's like should I
check on her?
Or whatever, yeah.
Or like someone making anuntoward joke or something like
that.
Right.
So that that I think is reallyinteresting is that, like the
actions step up over time andthat's true of the actions that
(01:01:45):
encourage rape culture theactions that deny bodily
autonomy step up over time.
So there's plausibledeniability at one end of it,
because if he started off withtrying to kill Ripley, he
wouldn't have gotten away withit, right?
Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
The other thing that I forgot that you brought in is
the indictment of capitalism andthe role that capitalism plays
I.
There's an indictment ofcapitalism full stop.
There's also the capitalismlayered into the denial of
bodily autonomy in today's world.
That that both are true, bothand both are there in like baked
(01:02:23):
into the this fictional futureworld.
Yeah, I'm gonna go re-watch it.
It's so good.
I want to have a film fest.
I want to do like all threeyeah, I I've.
Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
I've only ever seen the first one and part of me
kind of doesn't want to keepwatching.
Oh, really, you haven't seenthe others.
I haven't seen the others.
Yeah, it was funny because myhusband has seen aliens.
Speaker 2 (01:02:49):
Like how have you seen the sequel, but you hadn't
seen the original uh, in numberthree, which I know why dad
didn't want to watch it, butlike there is something really
really powerful about the scenewhen it's not our ripley, but we
think it's our ripley actuallyencounters the cloned versions
of her that are all, like youknow, have like deformations and
things and like, but they'rekept alive for science, I guess,
(01:03:12):
and it is deeply powerful anddeeply disturbing, anyway.
So I'm definitely going to reada lot and I don't remember what
I'm bringing you next week.
So let me take a quick look atmy calendar.
Right, I remember now, nextweek we are going to do
(01:03:33):
something completely different.
No, not Monty Python, mr Mom.
Speaker 1 (01:03:39):
Oh, oh.
Do you know that I wasterrified of washing machines
for years because of that movie?
Speaker 2 (01:03:46):
No, I do remember, though, being like you're not
going to burn Emily's blank.
You're my pillow, are you?
Speaker 1 (01:03:54):
I kind of remember that, I kind of remember that.
Speaker 2 (01:03:57):
No, you can keep it.
He should have kept it.
Speaker 1 (01:04:04):
Yeah, all right, sounds good.
See you then.
Speaker 2 (01:04:08):
Do you like stickers?
Sure, we all do.
If you head over toguygirlsmediacom slash, sign up
and share your address with us,we'll send you a sticker.
It really is that easy, butdon't wait, there's a limited
quantity.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
(01:04:29):
Is Professor Umlaut by KevinMacLeod from Incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what'sin your head?
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!