Deep Thoughts about Big

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Okay…but I get to be on top!

Tracie loved revisiting the 1988 Penny Marshall-helmed film Big this week. Tom Hanks’ performance of a 12-year-old boy wearing a grown man’s body is laugh-out-loud funny, and the film asks some profoundly important questions about how grownups can hold onto their childlike joy and wonder. But the love story between Hanks’ Josh Baskin and Elizabeth Perkins’ Susan–an actual adult woman–never sat well with either Guy girl. The sisters discuss how this film would not work if it were gender-swapped, why it seems to reinforce the idea that women should mother their romantic partners, and their theory that the sexual and romantic component of the story was potentially from studio meddling.

No need to ask Zoltar for a wish–just plug in your headphones and take a listen.

CW: Discussions of grooming

Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.

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We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
You say nobody did anything wrong, and I think
that's true of the characters.
I'm not sure it's true of thestorytellers, because I think
they could have told this storyand got at the interesting
questions that are genuinelyinteresting, without having him
have sex with a grown-ass adult,what others might deem stupid
shit.
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking

(00:21):
about, and so do we.
We're sisters, tracy and Emily,collectively known as the Guy
Girls.
Every week, we take turnsre-watching, researching and
reconsidering beloved media andsharing what we learn.
Come overthink with us and ifyou get value from the show,
please consider supporting us.
You can become a patron onPatreon or send us a one-time

(00:43):
tip through Ko-fi.
Both links are in the shownotes and thanks.
I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts About
Stupid Shit, because popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
On today's episode, I'll betalking about the 1988 Penny
Marshall film Big, starring TomHanks, with my sister, emily

(01:05):
Guy-Burken, and with you.
Let's dive in.
All right, em.
I know you've seen Big becauseI'm pretty sure we saw it
together, but tell me what youremember about the film.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
I remember the giant piano and playing chopsticks
with his feet.
I remember being a littleweirded out by the love story
even as a kid.
And not getting the first time Isaw it when he has the love
interest, stay over at hisapartment and she's like, can I

(01:39):
stay over?
He's like, okay, but I get tosleep on top and it's because he
had bunk beds and not gettingwhat she thought he meant.
He actually says I get to sleepon top and it's because he had
bunk beds and, um, not gettingwhat she thought he meant yeah,
he actually says I get to be ontop, be on top yeah, and and
like it was years later, I wasjust like, oh, that is, why is
that in a kid's movie?

(02:03):
I remember really thinking theZoltron machine, zoltar, zoltar,
zoltar, zoltar machine wasreally cool.
And then this is like just howweird little Emily was wired.
I remember feeling bad for theactor who played the kid version
of Tom Hanks, because he'splaying the main character but

(02:26):
he's got a smaller part than thekid playing his best friend,
really, yeah.
And so like I remember beinglike you know it was this big
break, but it's a minor part.
So, you know, I remember, likethe toy company, oh, and when he
gets his again, this is youknow I remember like the toy
company, oh, and when he getshis again, this is you know

(02:47):
little future financial expert.
Like when he gets his firstpaycheck and he's like, oh, my
God, that's so much money.
And I think even as a kid I waslike how far is that going to go
?
You know, future financialexpert.
So you know there are otherlittle things like silly string

(03:08):
and stuff like that, but uh, youknow, that's that's.
That's about the, the extent ofit.
Um, I I also, as I have gottenolder, have been more disturbed
by what his parents went through.
Yeah, since that is not silly,funny hijinks.
So so, yeah, that's likethere's, there's, there's quite

(03:30):
a bit in there.
There's a lot of furniture inmy mind.
So tell me, why are we talkingabout big today?

Speaker 1 (03:35):
Yeah, this is one of the ones, like another one, that
I don't have any like superpoignant stories about this one,
but it is definitely one of thekind of comedies of our
childhood that just really, likeit took up a lot of imagination
space at the time, like I evenhave vague memories of talking,

(03:57):
like the three of us you, me andChris, our first cousin about,
like what we would do if wecould, you know, make that wish,
or or if we could, you know,have access wish or um, or if we
could, you know, have access toZoltar to make a wish, or if we
woke up one day and we'regrowing up, it was like fodder
for a lot of like, conversationand imagination, and so, you
know, while we're sort of doingthis project, it ended up on the

(04:20):
list and I was like, yeah,let's check that one out.
I haven't seen it in a longtime.
So so here we are.
So I think we're going to talk.
I want to talk about emotionalintelligence and wonder and play
, which this movie is all about.
I also do want to talk about,uh, gender and sexuality,
because the romance piece stillas a grownup, uh, uh, yeah, so

(04:49):
we'll get into that and and andI think I'd also like to in
terms of the gender question Ido with you want to talk about
the fact that this film wasdirected by Penny Marshall.
This, so this was like herthing in a time when there were
very few female directors andstill I'm not sure it passes

(05:11):
Bechdel, and so like I want totalk about like that that we've
we talk about all the time, butsort of how that happens with
even a female creator, thatthere's still like really lack
of representation.

Speaker 2 (05:27):
That sense that, yeah , we'll let you play, but you
got to play by our rules still.

Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah, yeah, and and and to.
I'm in a lot of ways, I thinkPenny Marshall didn't play by
the rules, but in in some ways,obviously, like she still was.
So anyway, I'd like to talkabout that at least a little bit
.
But those are the big thingsthat I want to talk about as
sort of like maturity, emotionalmaturity and maturity in
general, like what, what, whatis it that we think it means to

(05:52):
be an adult?
Because that's fundamentally, Ithink, what this movie is
asking.
And gender sexuality, you know,as it's plays plays out in this
film.
And and relationships, maybe.
Well, we'll get there.
And and then about sort of therole of Penny Marshall as a

(06:13):
prominent female director whenthere weren't very many.
And still, this film, I'm notsure, passes back down.
So but before we get there, letme give um a plot synopsis,
which I think maybe I canactually do more quickly.
So we meet.
Maybe I can, I don't know, I'mnot very good at it as regular
listeners.

Speaker 2 (06:33):
Now, so I feel like we start every like this will be
quick this time, yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
Every time it's just like 30 minutes three hours
later, like my synopsis islonger than the actual movie.
So, um, okay, so we meet Josh,uh, josh Baskin and his best
friend Billy.
They're together all the times.
They're next door neighbors.
They're, uh, 13 years old andthey do 13 year old boy stuff.

(07:01):
So you know, they're ridingtheir bikes, they're singing
this weird song that maybe theymade up, but they know every
single lyric and they have likea little dance that goes with it
.
And we see them, they are, theydo.
They talk about one of theirfemale teachers who when she
bends over you can see down herblouse and they're like Ooh
boobies.
They don't say that, but that'sthe attitude.
And then they, we see them kindof admire a young girl their

(07:27):
age or maybe a year older, whosename I don't remember, but it
doesn't matter.
She's got a side pony, she'svery 1980s, and she greets Josh
and he's like dumbstruck andcan't say hello.
So we sort of see that boyishinterest in girls, but still
very much at arm's length.

(07:49):
And then at a carnival, josh isthere with his parents and his
baby sister and he sees the girl, the side pony girl, in line
for a scary, not a rollercoaster, but a ride that would
make me throw up and it's ascary one.
And he says I want to go onthis one, cause he sees the girl
and his parents are like areyou sure?

(08:10):
And he's like, yeah, I want togo on this one.
And so they're like, okay, andthey give him the tickets and
they say we'll meet at theFerris wheel in 30 minutes.
So he like pushes his way tothe, to the, up the line to be
next to her, and she's like, ohhey, josh, and whatever.
They're talking.
And then another boy comes upwho can drive, so an older boy.
They get to the front of theline and Josh can't get on the
ride because you have to be thistall to ride and he's not tall

(08:31):
enough.
So he is dejected and I think,to the film's credit, to Penny
Marshall's credit, the two olderkids are not cruel, like, they
actually are very kind and likethey get on the ride anyway.
They don't like not go becauseJosh can't, but at no point do

(08:52):
they make fun of him or in anyway kind of belittle him.
So I think that's really like.
I want to highlight thatBecause I think in the hands of
a different director he wouldhave been demeaned by, by the
people.
So the circumstance makes himfeel bad about himself, but the
other people with him do not.
They're sort of like oh, toobad, we'll catch up with you
later, like, but in no way likehere.

(09:14):
Too little, like, none of thatso which is?

Speaker 2 (09:17):
that's a really interesting counterpoint.

Speaker 1 (09:18):
I've been thinking a lot about goonies, which we
talked about recently, and likehow the bullies are just over
the top, cartoonish yep, andthat's exactly actually thinking
about goonies, I think, is whyit stood out to me that these
other kids were not at all cruelto josh.
So, but he's totally dejectedbecause this girl he had a crush
on, like he looked diminished,uh, quite literally uh, in her

(09:43):
eyes because he couldn't get onand and like he tried to argue
with the carnival ride guy andhe was like I'll make the rules,
you know Anyway.
So he walks away, dejected, andwe, the camera sort of follows
him through this, like likeoutdoor arcade with the carnival
, where kids are playing lots ofvideo games, until he's face to
face with the Zoltar machine,which is this fortune teller.

(10:04):
So, and he's intrigued by it,you stick a quarter in the top
and then you have to direct thislike sort of ramp, to put it in
Zoltar's mouth.
His mouth is opening andclosing, his eyes are red, it's
like a torso of a human, andthen different things light up
to tell you what to do.
So then you make a wish and thenyou press the button, and if

(10:24):
the quarter do so, then you makea wish and then you press the
button, and if the quarter goesinto his mouth and your wish is
granted, he says I wish I werebig.
That's his wish.
He realizes that the machineisn't even plugged in, but it
was lighting up.
Whatever.
He goes home, goes to sleep andthen in the morning his mom is

(10:47):
like calling for him.
It's time to get up, it's timeto go to school.
She's making breakfast and wesee these legs like drop over
the side of the bunk bed andthey're an adult man's legs and
it's Tom Hanks.
And so it's Tom Hanks wearingthese, like 12 year old boys.

Speaker 2 (11:09):
With like pictures on it.

Speaker 1 (11:14):
Oh, my goodness, I laughed out loud in this movie
multiple times.
So Hanks does an amazing jobLike embodying a 12 year old boy
, realizing he's in the body ofa 32 year old man or whatever,
and like looking in the mirrorand like feeling his face and
like looking at his body and thechest hair, like opening the
waistband of the underpants alittle bit.

(11:36):
It's so funny, anyway.
So he goes into his dad's roomand he gets oh, actually very
funny scene where he's trying toput on the 12 year old boy's
pants and falls over, or 13.
Anyway, so he puts on his dad'sclothes and he goes and he
rides back to where the carnivalwas the night before to try and

(11:57):
find the Zoltar, and it hasbeen totally packed up.
So there's no, there's nothing,there's no Zoltar, there's just
detritus on the fieldoverlooking the river I guess
it's the Brooklyn bridge, maybein the background, anyway, like,
oh shit, he can't, there'snothing he can do.
So he rides back home and hecomes in the house and his mom

(12:18):
is, um, I don't you know, doingsomething at the house and she's
like who are you?
What are you doing here?
And she, you know, she'sfreaking the fuck out from this
like man who just walked intoher house and at first he thinks
that she's mad because hedidn't wipe his feet, because he
just wants to go back out,wipes his feet, comes back in
and she's like what she's like?

(12:39):
Throws her purse at him andlike and and.
And he's like no, it's me, it'sjosh, and he's trying to prove
that he's him.
So he's telling her all this,these details about josh, and so
she's like what have you donewith my son?
Um, so she basically chases himout and and is freaking out,
thinks that that her son hasbeen kidnapped by this man.
So that's the bit that you'relike as an adult.

(13:01):
I'm like oh man, that's not,it's just disturbing.

Speaker 2 (13:06):
I have children about that age and yeah, yeah, yeah,
disturbing.
Um, I I like to think now, likeyou know, they wouldn't recast
my kid as tom hanks, right?
I like to think that I'drecognize, like you know, you
look like my kid the olderversion of my kid.
I mean, obviously you're notexpecting a 32 year old man when

(13:29):
you're 13 year old.
Yes, who went to bed in thatnight, but still anyway.

Speaker 1 (13:38):
Yeah, is to convince Billy that he is himself with
this silly song that they hadbeen singing.
So Billy believes him.
So they, they cut school andthey go.
They're going to go find theZoltar.
They look at all the likearcades and all the like sales
places.
They can't find Zoltar.
So they go to public records totry and get a list of all the
carnivals, to try and find wherethe Zoltar might be, and it's

(14:00):
going to take six weeks.
So they set Josh up in thislittle like shitty motel where
it's like 1750 for a night and$10 deposit for the sheets, like
it is bad, it is real bad, andBilly can't stay.

(14:21):
So Josh is there by himself andthere's a very believable,
plausible scene where Josh endsup as Tom Hanks, the 13-year-old
boy in Tom Hanks' body, justcurled up fetal on this nasty
bed, crying, which is veryplausible and sweet.
And so they decide he needs toget a job.

(14:43):
He gets a job as a computeroperator, which is basically
like data entry at a toy company, and John Lovitz is his cubicle
mate and gives him a tip thatthat woman all you got to do is
say hi to her and she'll wrapher legs around you so tight,

(15:05):
you'll be screaming for mercy orsomething like that, and Josh
is like, okay, I'll be sure tostay away from her then.

Speaker 2 (15:18):
Okay, that is so wholesome.
In some ways that's kind ofadorable.
So it's, it's a.
It's an indictment of the toxicmasculinity.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
Yeah totally, you know like that.

Speaker 2 (15:34):
It's not learned at that age?
Yeah, yet yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:39):
So in his first week on his job, maybe even the first
day, he's like rushing aroundthe corner and ends up like
smacking like hard, like fallsdown on his butt, uh, into the,
the owner of the company, mrMcMillan they work for McMillan
toys and then two other peopleit's um, susan and Paul.
So that's John heard and Johnheard as Paul, and Elizabeth

(16:01):
Perkins as Susan, and like paperscatter everywhere.
And so Mr McMillan is is is thebig boss.
And he's like where are yourushing to?
And Josh says, well, I got toget these papers to Xerox room
because they need it on by five.
And so Mr McMillan is like I'dlike to see some hustle, nice
work, nice work.
So anyway, they walk away.
So that was establishing thatMr McMillan has seen this dude,

(16:24):
nice work.
So anyway, they walk away.
So that was establishing thatMr McMillan has seen this dude.
There's a moment he gets hisfirst paycheck, as you remember,
$187.
And he and Billy spend it onlike pizza and video games and
stuff.
And then he goes to FAOSchwartz on the weekend, like

(16:46):
the big flagship store in NewYork, and he's just playing.
So we see him playing, I guess,laser tag with another kid who
he doesn't know, cause we see,like, while they're playing
together, like what's your name?
I'm John, what's your name,john, you know.
So they're playing, so theother kid gets him with the
laser tag, with the gun, and hedoes this big dramatic death

(17:08):
where he's like laying on thefloor like twitching, and Mr
McMillan comes over and is likedon't you work for me?
And he's like yes, I do.
So he gets up and McMillan andJosh are now walking through FAO
Schwartz and Josh is liketelling him about the toys he
likes and he doesn't like andwhy he likes them and things
that changed and why he didn'tlike the change, and blah, blah,
blah, basically just showingthat he gets toys, and Macmillan

(17:29):
is clearly impressed.
And then they're talking andthey walk and step accidentally
on that giant piano that youremember and Josh is like neat,
and he tosses the bag he's beencarrying so he can play more
easily on the piano and startsdoing the one hand of heart and
soul.
And Macmillan says, oh, did youtake piano lessons?

(17:52):
Me too.
And so he gets on the piano anddoes the other hand for heart
and soul and then they dochopsticks together and they're
having a great time and allthese people gather around and
are watching and they just havea really good time together.
That is a magical scene.
That is a magical scene.
It is a magical scene.
So, because of that encounterat FAO, schwartz Macmillan

(18:12):
promotes him to like VP ofinnovation or something.
That's not what it is, but it'ssomething like that, like a
made up title, where basicallyhis job is just to play with
toys and tell them what hethinks about them.
Paul and Susan, who we now seeare actually together we cause
we see them eating breakfasttogether in their pajamas at one

(18:33):
of their apartments are likewho the hell is this guy?
You know?
Like where did he come from?
We see, um, an important scenewhere they're in a meeting where
Paul is presenting a newproduct and he's got all kinds
of data about like tests andmarkets and blah, blah, blah
about a building that transformsinto a robot and Josh is there

(18:57):
playing with it and like thearms come off and he's like
whatever.
And while Paul is doing hislike very important presentation
, paul gets to the end of hispresentation Does anybody have
any questions?
And Josh is like I don't get it.
What's fun about a building?
Like like, if we're going tomake a robot turn into something
it should be, I don't know likea bug, like a prehistoric bug
with like big pincers and stuff,and like Paul feels totally

(19:21):
humiliated by this and thinksthat Josh did it on purpose, in
sort of a like passive,aggressive, sort of take him
down, humiliate him kind of way.
Which in fact masculinity,exactly which in fact josh was
just like.
I mean, what's fun about abuilding?
It just stands there.
So there's that rivalry we seekind of playing out in the

(19:43):
background.
Meanwhile, there's just a anumber of things.
There's like a big party.
Josh rents this ridiculoustuxedo with rhinestones all over
it.

Speaker 2 (19:54):
Oh, that's right, and he has the tiny corn.

Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yes, he eats it like corn on the cob.
Yes, he's at this party andhe's doing the most like eating
from the buffet in the mostridiculous ways, including like
the like little corn, like fromchinese food, the hic, like
because he's never seen itbefore.
And, um, and susan comes overand she is intrigued by him like

(20:20):
she doesn't.
Like I guess she maybe thoughthe did it on purpose too,
although it was was great ideas.
Like she's intrigued by thegood ideas, good toy ideas that
he's got.
So she comes over and she'ssort of chatting him up and
she's like this is beluga, it'scaviar, and she says McMillan
flies it in every year and sothey each take some and Josh

(20:40):
hates it.
Like he like like literallylike gags and like spits it out,
let's fall out of his mouth.
He's wiping his tongue with anapkin.
Anyway, they leave and she, shehas a car waiting outside, it's
a limo.
So they, they go and get in thelimo and he's like playing with
all of the things, like the,the door lock up, down, up, down

(21:04):
, up, down, up, down, up, down,up, down, up, down, and like the
lights and whatever he standsup, he says ejector seat and he
stands up and puts his head outthe, his torso out the moonroof
and invites her to do this, orsunroof, invites her to do the
same.
And they end up back at hishouse Because he has in the

(21:28):
since he got the VP job, he'smoved out of the shithole and
has rented this big loftapartment that he's filled with
pinball machines and Pepsimachines and stuff.
So they end up back at hisapartment where you that seemed
that you remember where she's.
She's sort of she.
She thinks that a romance ishappening and she's like maybe
this is too early.
And he's like what's too early?
And she's like maybe this istoo early.
And he's like what's too early.

(21:48):
And she's like, well, mestaying over and?
And he's like you mean like asleepover?
I mean okay, but I get to be ontop.
It's really funny.
So they go in and there'sanother magical scene.
He's got a giant trampoline,like a full-size trampoline in
this loft apartment and they endup jumping on it and she's she

(22:10):
like has these like tiny littlesmall jumps?
He's like, no, do it for real.
And they end up like he has toreally coax her and show her how
to do, like that it's okay todo it, but they end up like
really like just jumping andhaving fun.
And the camera actually goesfrom outside the apartment, like
looking in the big windows andshe's like jumping and bouncing
on, like bouncing on her tushand bouncing back up, and she's

(22:31):
like just having fun.
So that happens.
Paul gives her a hard time abouthaving left with Josh the next
day.
Josh is getting more and moreimportant and Billy like having
less and less time for Billy.
And then it's Josh's birthdayand Billy wants to do something

(22:54):
else.
But Josh has a date and on thatday he goes back to Susan's and
they they start kissing.
She takes her blouse off, theystart kissing she takes her
blouse off and we see him sortof touch her boob and kiss her
again and the scene cuts.
But then the next morning he'swalking into work like very

(23:15):
standing up, very tall andwearing a, like a.
His clothes have been gettingbetter and now they're really
good like well-tailored suit andlike asks for coffee from his
uh, his secretary, ms PattersonDeborah Jo Rupp plays her who is
like but you don't drink coffee, so we're meant to know that he

(23:39):
had sex.
So, again, like more and moreimportant, he's pitching a new
idea he and Susan are working on.
It's an electronic comic book.
It's like a choose your ownadventure kind of comic book
electronic that you could buydifferent things for us.
They're working on this pitch.
She's trying to have aconversation about their
relationship.
He has no idea what ishappening, like there's a lot of

(24:00):
those sorts ofmisunderstandings.
Then Paul challenges him tolike says come with me, and they
go and they play I think it'sracket, but I don't know what it
is Some sort of racket gamethat's played outdoors and there
.
At first Paul is beating himbut then he's pulling his own

(24:22):
and then Paul breaks his ownrule Cause it was like over the
line on a serve and he had saidto and he definitely did say to
Josh at the beginning it has tobe under the line for the server
, vice versa.
And so Josh was like no, it'smy go, cause you said, and he's
like I didn't say that, I didn'tsay it.
And it turns into thisridiculous power struggle for
the ball, like on the ground,like Josh like trying to cause

(24:44):
Tom Hanks is taller than uh JohnHurd, so like trying to keep it
away from him.
And then I mean absolutelyridiculous, laugh out loud,
funny.
And then we see, uh, susan sortof tending him, and he says he
didn't have to punch me.
Anyway.
She breaks up with um, this isprobably out of order.

(25:05):
I do this every time, folks,I'm sorry.
She breaks up with Paul andhe's like what does he have that
I don't have?

Speaker 2 (25:11):
And she says he's a grownup, which is you know uh, I
remember that line too, Causeit was just like and intention,
I mean intentionallyintentionally, but it's so funny
in part because she has goodreason for saying that.

Speaker 1 (25:26):
Right, because I mean , she even says, when she's
tending the punch or you know,the the broken it's not a broken
nose, but just like the woundsfrom from the scuffle.
She says to Josh, like, whenhe's like, why didn't you, why
did he punch me?
And she says, well, he's scaredof you because you won't play
his games.
And he's like I tried to playhis game, he changed the rules.

(25:53):
You know that actually, thatscene probably happened before
they had sex.
Um, now that I think about it,but it doesn't really matter
anyway, he tries to tell herthat he's actually a kid and she
thinks he's like breaking upwith her, like we're all kids,
you think there's not a scared,a scared little girl inside of
me.
And like he's trying to explainhe wants to go home.
He actually, like billy, hadconfronted him and was like you,

(26:16):
for what's, what's wrong withyou?
Man, like, and he, because he'sgotten into the whole like, um,
the rat race of of thiscorporate life that he's living
and the presentations he has todo and the marketing reports he
has to read.
And he's like Billy, this isimportant.
And Billy's like what?
I'm your best friend, I'm threemonths older than you, asshole.
And so he you know, he kind oflike has this moment of

(26:40):
realizing like yeah, he reallydoes want to go home.
So he's trying to explain toSusan what's going on and
obviously she doesn't believehim.
So the next day, in the middleof the presentation for the
comic book thing, paul's a jerkand is like I don't get it.
But everybody else is like no,it's actually really cool.
And Josh is just like I got togo and he just leaves because

(27:01):
Billy has told him where to findthis altar.
They got the results of the orthe, they got the stuff from the
consumer affairs and Billyknows where Zoltar is.
So Josh just leaves and Billy'soutside and hears him go.
And then Susan realizes oh, hewas telling me the truth.
Like somehow something clicksand she realizes he actually is

(27:23):
a kid.
So she follows him out, asksBilly where he's going.
Billy's like who the hell areyou?
And she's like I'm hisgirlfriend.
So Billy tells her, so sheactually goes and meets him at
the park where it is.
He's just made the wish andthey're talking about it and he
says maybe you could come withme and she's like I don't want
to do that again.

(27:44):
I did it already and she's likehow old are you?
Like 15, 16.
And he says I'm 13.
She drives him home to hishouse and he's like walking
toward the house and like wavesat her.
She looks down, looks back upand it's the original actor, the
child actor, in Tom Hanks'ssuit.
He goes into the house and wehear the mom like squeal that

(28:10):
he's home, and then the movieends with Billy and Josh sort of
back in their usual 13 year oldantics.
So that was probably a littleout of order.
I don't think it really matters.
He wished to be big.
He had a grownup experience.
He wished to be small again, ora child.

(28:30):
It wished to be a kid again isactually the wish that's made.
So so that's the basic, whathappened, and so, um, I guess
the fundamental questions Ithink the Penny Marshall was
interested in talking about wereabout adulting.
You know, though, we wouldn'thave said that in 1988.
But sort of like, what does itmean to be an adult and mature?

(28:55):
And like, what is maturityactually Like?
I think those are the questionsthat Penny Marshall was
interested in with this filmfilm, and I think she asks them
in interesting ways, right byhaving Susan say what she likes
about Josh, who is in fact 13,that he's a grownup, like that's
a fundamental indictment of thekind of politicking that we do

(29:17):
as adults for power and status.
Right, josh doesn't do that, itdoesn't occur to him to do that
, and Susan reads that as mature, and so I think, like Marshall
was sort of asking us to thinkabout what actually is maturity
Right.
So I think that's that's reallyinteresting.

(29:38):
I think she also like part andparcel with that was sort of a
invitation to adults to playRight and to remember just the
what is generative and joyfuland wonderful about play,

(30:01):
because that's like Josh justplays all the time and and in
fact, no, and with no agenda,with no agenda.
It's just for the joy of it,right?
And in fact at one point Pauland Susan are in the car
together before they've brokenup and the stock market reporter
is on or something on the radioand she starts messing with it

(30:23):
to put it on music and he's likewhy are you always playing with
things?
And she just sort of giggles,so like it's text and successful
owns this toy company, right,that everybody's jockeying for

(30:48):
his approval and like access tohim.
And he has never lost his senseof play, like he actually tells
Josh when they run into eachother at FAO Schwartz, he goes
there every Sunday to actually,because marketing reports can't
tell you what you can see in thetoy store, at which point.
At which point Josh says what'sa marketing report?

(31:09):
And McMillan's like exactly.

Speaker 2 (31:16):
That also, that like that fits, talking about really
realism in a, in a movie aboutmagically becoming an adult.
But it makes sense that thesuccessful ceo of a toy company
would be someone who is able tobalance the ability to maintain

(31:37):
that childlike wonder and senseof play and joy with the
business requirements necessarybeing able to read, like he can
read, a marketing report.
Yeah, and he also yeah so and heknows, he knows where those fit
in into this.
Successful and that's like, insome ways, that gives us this is
what it looks like.

(31:57):
To be a successful adult is isto to be able to walk the like,
maintain that childlike wonder,while also understanding what
your adult responsibilities are.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
Yeah, yeah.
And like Macmillan allowshimself to play, he also
recognizes the value in Josh'splay, which I think so.
So that piece of the text andsubtext of this movie, I think
it's remains like reallypowerful, like it's still reads

(32:31):
relevant and and poignant andreal to me.

Speaker 2 (32:35):
Well, and there's a reason why the, the, the scene
on the piano is like, is famous.
Like it's included in you knowwhen they'll have like, I can't
remember, but there, there arelike those top 20 iconic scenes
of the 20th century and stuff.

Speaker 1 (32:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
And so like there's a reason for that, because it's
just delightful, and same withwhen they're jumping on the
trampoline, which I hadn'tremembered until you mentioned
it, but it's a similar sort oflike that just that's what it is
to be human, like that's whatwe do, we play.

Speaker 1 (33:13):
Yeah, so, so, so that that piece of it still really
holds up.
We're just looking at like adifferent mode of adulting, a
way of adulting that doesn'tpreclude childing.

Speaker 2 (33:23):
Well it doesn't.
It doesn't stifle or deny thelittle girl inside like that.
Yeah, it doesn't stifle or denythe, the, the child inside.
That's like.
I don't want to listen to theDow Jones report, Right, Right.

Speaker 1 (33:39):
Right when it goes into the romance piece, I it it
like it gives me the ick, youknow, as a in in 2025.
So so let me lay that out alittle bit more.
So I mean, initially it's likeit's really unclear why Susan is
interested in him.
I mean he has good ideas, butfrom her perspective he reads as

(34:03):
just kooky.
I mean like today we wouldprobably say like neurodivergent
in some way.
Um, because he just likedoesn't get social cues and like
just behaves just bizarrely.
So like like the fact that sheremains sort of romantically
interested in him, like doesn'tspeak well to Susan in the

(34:27):
beginning, in the beginning, andthen like he's just really
honest, though has a hard timetalking about his feelings when
she's like, what are we evendoing here?
He's like, uh, hanging outworking on this report, what do
you mean?
And she's like, well, how doyou feel about all this?
And he's like what, oh what?

(34:48):
And she's like me, how do youfeel about me?
And he kind of like smacks herwith the comic book and like
laughs, and then like tacklesher and kisses her and like it's
childish, which is part of thepoint.
She finds it charming.

(35:09):
But uh, it's uh.
I mean, I guess it's what youget when you date a 13-year-old
boy.
To her credit, she didn't know,she didn't know, she didn't
know.

Speaker 2 (35:30):
That's and that's one thing I want to say in this
film like nobody does anythingwrong.
Nobody does anything wrong,totally, totally, like it's.
It's so inappropriate, butnobody has done anything that
they shouldn't agree.

Speaker 1 (35:39):
Yeah I, I'm I'm not mad at susan, yeah, but but then
so at Susan.
But then there's a scenethey're at a dinner party and
one of the I guess the host'skid is about Josh's age and
needs help with his homework,and dad's like we've got guests,
I can't help you right now.
But Josh is like, oh, I canhelp with algebra and he like

(36:03):
goes in the kid's room and islike helping him, like using
sports metaphors to help himunderstand algebra.
And Susan and I don't know ifit's the kid's mom or another
woman like come and they're kindof looking, like watching, and
the other woman says to Susanyou're right, he's wonderful,

(36:24):
and I I'm speaking in draftdraft here.
I don't have this fully likethought out, but there's
something that bothsimultaneously rings true and
icks me out about that wholesetup right, that multiple women

(36:48):
are like this man, who is infact a 13 year old boy, is the
man I'm looking for.
The thing that rings true, Ithink, is exactly what Penny
Marshall was going for thatthere's a level of honesty and
authenticity that we learn asadults to manage, hide, perform
behind.

(37:08):
We put things in front of howwe actually feel as adults,
because we're supposed to that a13-year-old hasn't quite
learned to do yet, and I thinkthe point Marshall was making is
that that is-.
Worthy of rediscovering inoneself, yeah, and, and, and, to
be desired and like maybe abetter and more authentic way to

(37:31):
be in relationship, and sothat's the part that rings true,
but it's still a 13 year oldboy who they are ultimately like
pining after and that gets tolike there is a an expectation

(37:53):
for women to mother the men intheir lives.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:57):
Oh, thank you for saying that.
Carry on so part of the ick isthat she is drawn to his
childlike nature, both in the ina positive way, like you're
describing, because she's drawnto his authenticity that is
childlike.
But there is also the like oh,someone needs to take care of

(38:18):
this man.
Yes, yes, aspect of being drawnto his childlike nature.
Yes, like oh, he doesn't get it, I can save him.

Speaker 1 (38:27):
Thank you for saying that, because I wasn't putting
that together, but I think youwere exactly right.
I think you were exactly rightand part of the way that I know
you're right is because ifMarshall had made this movie
gender, there is nothing coolabout the relationship between

(38:48):
the 13 year old girl and anadult woman's body and an adult
man.
There is nothing charming orlike I don't.
I don't, I don't even like I.
It just sticks me out that way.

Speaker 2 (39:05):
Well, and because, because, like, we don't actually
have to put a 13 year old girlin an adult woman's body for
that to be reality, maybe, yeah,like we, we already get like
well, and and we get adult mentelling young women like you're
so mature for your age, you'reso authentic, you're an old soul
like we get that already.

Speaker 1 (39:28):
I have personally experienced it a big part of of
the ick.
For me is that, like whatmessage that?
I don't think Marshall wascreating.

(39:51):
That message I think we havebeen given it as women, like I
think Marshall was reflectingsomething that's that's
authentically in the culture,but I don't like it.
You know, I don't like it.

Speaker 2 (40:03):
Yeah, even the uh her like tending him after after
like him, after the fight withPaul.
There is that caretaking of aman who can't take care of
himself.

Speaker 1 (40:17):
Yeah, and that's the moment that she realizes, when
she's caring for him, after Paulhas had that ridiculous scuffle
, that's the moment that makesher break up with Paul.
So yeah, for sure, for sure,okay, gross, and like I, and I

(40:40):
have to say too, like you say,nobody did anything wrong, and I
think that's true of thecharacters.
I'm not sure it's true of thestorytellers, because I think
they could have told this storyand got at the interesting
questions that are genuinelyinteresting without having him
have sex with a grown-ass adult.

Speaker 2 (40:59):
Yeah, on the trampoline and how magical it is
, like that is something where Icould see even having susan
interested in josh, but nevergetting to that point because,
frankly, like how is a 13 yearold boy like when that happens

(41:21):
him not going?
Like whoa, I'm not ready forthis, you know?
Like there's because that alsobuys into the idea that, like
boys are just you know, you justgive them a reason, just give
them an excuse, just give astiff breeze, yeah, rather than
it being like like he is notemotionally ready for this.

Speaker 1 (41:40):
well, especially since, like we saw in the first
scene, before he was big, beforehe Tom Hanks that, like the
girl with the side pony said hiJosh, and he could barely speak,
yes, like Billy had to be.
Like he says hi back, yes, andthat's.

Speaker 2 (41:57):
I mean that's appropriate because he's 13.
He's 13.
So, like Susan didn't doanything wrong, mm-mm, Josh
didn't do anything wrong, exceptI think the storytellers did
josh dirty by making it seemlike he was capable of accepting
that kind of advance.
Right, the, the it's.

(42:19):
The movie makers were solvingtheir own problem, which is
there needs to be a romance,rather than solving the
character's problem, which islike wow, this is really cool,
but I can't.
That would have been incharacter.

Speaker 1 (42:37):
Right, right.
And in fact, at the very end,when she realizes she knows that
it's real, that he is in fact akid, but he's already made the
wish.
So they're at the sort of seapark where the Zoltar is, he
says there's a million reasonswhy I should go back and only
one why I should stay.

(42:58):
And that's you, which is notwhat a 13 year old boy would say
.
No, it felt like, even as I donknow it, just it just felt out
of character.
If it felt like what susanwould want to hear, as opposed
to what josh would actually say,yeah, and not for nothing.

Speaker 2 (43:20):
the fact that I was icked out by it, watching it
when I was a child, when I wasat my most credulous about
stories Like if it's in thestory then that means it's right
because it's in the story tellsme that this is, that this is
the wrong note.
So, like that, this, this issomething that was put in to

(43:42):
solve a problem other than thestory's problem.

Speaker 1 (43:44):
Yeah, yeah, cause in fact, some of the laugh story's
problem, yeah, yeah, because infact some of the laugh, some of
the funniest moments, are whenjosh either accidentally says
something like the I I get to beon top.
Or like totally doesn'tunderstand sexual innuendo, like
she'll wrap her arms, put legsaround you so tight you'll be

(44:04):
screaming, screaming for us, orwhatever the hell it is that
john lewis says um, there areothers like that, like the.
Those are the funniest moments.
And so that's that, that kidwho reacted that it just yeah.
Anyway, I think I've said whatI need to say.
I don't think we needed thesexual component of the
relationship between susan andjosh for this story and I think

(44:27):
it, and I think it.
I actually think it would havebeen a stronger story if it
weren't there, and it would havemade Susan really think about,
I mean, it does, it does as itstands, it makes her really
think about what it is that youknow she needs and wants.
But I think it would.
It would have been even morecompelling for her to really
think about herself and her umrelationships with men.

(44:51):
I mean, like she's got a hardrow to hoe professionally, like
she's a high achiever.
She's the only woman in theroom in like the.
There's this another sort ofmuch like mr mom, like another
sort of smoky war room wherethey're talking about new

(45:16):
products, and she's maybe one oftwo but but the only one who
gets any um lines in the moviefor sure in the room.
And in fact and she worksreally, really hard in fact at
the party she goes up to mrmcmillan and starts to like try
and engage him in like shop talkand he's like Susan, have a
drink, just relax, it's a party.
So the play that Josh bringsinto her life is important and

(45:41):
significant for her mentalhealth and we didn't need the
sexual romantic component, yeah,for that to be the case.

Speaker 2 (45:51):
Well, I also can remember not the first time I
saw it, but at some point when Isaw my teens, I think, thinking
about what this will do to herreputation well, she already had
a rep.

Speaker 1 (46:06):
I mean, like paul says something about how josh is
just one more link in thechange and maybe maybe that's
why, like he lists, like threeor four other men, that she
slept with and so like.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
That is completely unreasonable and unfair.
But that is the world,especially in 1988.
But I mean, hell, it's theworld.
Now People claim that KamalaHarris had to quote, unquote,
sleep her way to the top.
So that to me was also like anaspect of why this ached me out.

(46:39):
And if we made like a follow-upmovie about Susan or like got
to see her talk to her therapistor something like that, like
maybe we could get to this placewhere she had sublimated all
her play into her sexuality, youknow and so you know, like
there's, there's someinteresting stuff there.
There's some very interestingstuff there that I think could

(47:01):
make a fascinating examinationof what it means to be a high
achieving woman in the eightiesexamination of what it means to
be a high achieving woman in theeighties.

Speaker 1 (47:10):
Yeah, yes, yes, and you know I'm thinking about the
TV show rivals.
That's newish right now.
That's the one where DavidTennant plays a TV exec in
Britain.

Speaker 2 (47:21):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's based on a book
written around the eighties,wasn't it?

Speaker 1 (47:25):
And it's set in the eighties, yeah, and um, there's
a high achieving woman whosleeps with lots of important
men in that.
So I I think there's, there's,there's some there there.
That's not just the moviemakers like doing susan dirty,
like I think there is sort of acultural something.

(47:45):
Yeah, I think, based on the Imean, I was a child in the
eighties, I don't actually knowbut based on other sort of pop
culture that you know, I thinkis kind of reflecting at least a
way, not that those womenaren't also very talented, but
like you use the tools in yourtoolbox, kind of a thing.

(48:05):
So but yeah, yes, all all ofthose things We've been talking
for a minute I do want to makesure that we have some time to
talk about sort of the moviemakers, like the critique that
we're giving right now of theactual story elements based on
the questions that PennyMarshall was asking.
I want to talk about the factthat it was Penny Marshall

(48:26):
asking, asking them right, thefact that so we, when I think
about the bechdel test, so Iasked the first question are
there at least two named femalecharacters?
there are, because misspatterson, the secretary, uh,
and susan, and and then the momis baskin yeah, so at least
those three, and there areothers too, because side pony
has a name I don't remember hername, but she had one.

(48:49):
So there there are more than,uh, more than one named female
characters, but I don't knowthat they ever speak to each
other, that any of them everspeak to each other.
So so it doesn't pass back to land we've got this like badass

(49:09):
female director in pennymarshall, like who goes on to
make league of their own withtom hanks again which needs to
be on our list if it's not, yeahagreed and so like I don't know
if there's more to say about itthan like I, I didn't take the

(49:29):
time to like see if there's anykind of documentary or like oral
history evidence of like.
If she had pressure to push sexand romance into this film, I
don't know, so I'll start withthat.
I suspect that, and like laterin her career she'd been
successful.
She was able to say no to that.

(49:50):
On League of their Own right,there is no romance like you
expect it between the Tom Hanksand the um.
Gina Davis characters but itdoesn't happen and I think
that's because Penny Marshallwas like no, that's not the
story I'm telling, I don't wantto tell that story.
And this earlier stage in hercareer maybe she wasn't able to
push back hard enough againstthe producers or the you know,

(50:12):
the people who are reading themarketing report saying like,
okay, it has to be a romance.

Speaker 2 (50:16):
Yeah, it's question for you who wrote it?

Speaker 1 (50:18):
Did Penny Marshall write it, or it was written by
Gary Ross and Ann Spielberg.

Speaker 2 (50:25):
Okay, and Ann Spielberg Okay.
So another aspect of this thatI am curious about, and you
probably don't know and this isall speculation but the thing
that disturbs me about him beingaway from his parents for six
weeks and them being so, soterrified and heartbroken.

(50:48):
Right, we see it a little bit,not a huge amount, but he calls,
doesn't he?

Speaker 1 (50:53):
Yeah, he calls and talks to his mom and like she
wants proof that he's okay.
And he says well, ask mesomething that only he would
know.
And she says ask him what Isang to him when he was little.
And he says he has this likedear the headlights look.
And he's like don't you want toask him something else?
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:16):
Don't they end up?

Speaker 1 (51:16):
singing together on the phone or something Not
exactly.
He says, oh, oh, I got it, Igot it.
And he starts singing memories.
Okay, and she cries.
So he's singing memories intothe handset at work Like John
Loves is like side-eyeing himand Mrs Baskin is crying.

Speaker 2 (51:38):
So the reason I bring that up is I wonder if this had
been in the hands of a maledirector, if we would have had
those scenes, if we would havejust like skipped over, just not
worried about what theirparents Just not worried about,
like what, what mom's gonethrough for those six weeks?
No idea, no idea.

(51:58):
This is, this is entirelyspeculation, but that is
something that you know.
Josh is having this adventureand you know it's.
It's scary and angsty andterrifying in some ways, but in
a lot of ways it's just it'swonderful, it's.
You know he's learning abouthimself, he's learning about the
world, he's, he's he'sdesigning toys, meanwhile, like

(52:20):
his parents are going throughthe worst possible thing that a
parent can go through yeah, andpossible thing that a parent can
go through.
And you know thatacknowledgement of it, even
though it's played for laughs,is, I feel like, important,
because children aren't justchildren.

(52:41):
You know children are parts ofa part of a family unit.
They're, you know they're.
They have parents, they haveguardians, they have adults who
care about them.
You know, and like they haveparents, they have guardians,
they have adults who care aboutthem.
You know, and like we never see, like there's no, his is his
face on like a milk carton, oryes, we do see that, okay, okay,
um, do we know what like isgoing on with his school if
they're worried about it?
No, and like, at the end yousay that that, uh, he and billy

(53:03):
are back together doing theirtheir thing, but, like, would
his parents be like superparanoid and overprotective from
that point on?
Would they let him go out andride bikes by himself?
I mean, like, is this going toreally affect the rest of his
life and his little sister'slife?
Yeah, you know they're going tobe so overprotective anyway.

(53:26):
Like it's a silly movie, yeah,but there's a, there's a reality
underneath of it that I, Iimagine like dad watching it
with us, who was sooverprotective yeah like that
had to have killed him, even ashe was like enjoying the
silliness and like having funwatching Tom Hanks do an amazing

(53:50):
physical comedy, you know,which I know he had a huge
amount of respect for.

Speaker 1 (53:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:55):
Yeah, and that's just something like, as you like,
there's this thing about themedia.
Doesn't change you do?
You do?
Yeah, totally.
But even as a kid rememberbeing feeling bad for his mom
yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:12):
Well, I think we're meant to, because there's a
scene where billy and the momend up talking like across the
windows the way he used to talkwith josh, because mom is in
josh's room, just sort of sadand um and and, and billy really
feels for her too, I mean heknows the truth, but yeah.
So he tries to comfort her,like and she's like he had a
birthday and and Billy's like Iknow he's going to be back real

(54:36):
soon.

Speaker 2 (54:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:38):
So we're that there's that that is intentional on the
part of the movie makers.
We are actually meant to have agreat deal of sympathy and
empathy for Mrs Baskin.
Meant to have a great deal ofsympathy and empathy for Mrs.

Speaker 2 (54:47):
Baskin, and I could imagine a movie with a male
director just skipping over that, yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:54):
Just do the fun.

Speaker 2 (54:55):
Yeah, agreed, but he had a birthday.
So I have a tradition I take apicture of my kid both of my
kids at exactly the moment theywere born every year.
It started by accident, my withmy eldest.
I happened to be up, he wasborn at 6, 12 AM.
I happened to be up early on hisfirst birthday, so I took a
picture and then then it was atradition and like it makes my

(55:19):
heart clutch to think about thefirst year that we won't be
together when he's in collegeand I'll, I'll have to be like
you have to get up early andtake a selfie when he's in
college and I'll, I'll have tobe like you have to get up early
and take a selfie, right?
So you know that.
That is it's.
It hurts.
It hurts to think about andlike good for the movie that it

(55:42):
lets you see.
That hurt, yeah.

Speaker 1 (55:45):
Yeah, yeah, so well, those were the things that I
wanted to talk about.
I'll just say, before I do thesynopsis, I'll just you said it,
but I'll reiterate like TomHanks doing 13 year old boy is
so delightful, it's fun andfunny and you just, like you, I

(56:10):
believed it.
Like he acted his face off andI just I believed it.
Like the physical comedy oflike, in the very beginning, him
trying to put on the 15 yearold's pants and like falling
over, but also in his face as helike starts to, as he reacts to

(56:32):
things, you know, $187.
And you know, I just the the,the beluga caviar.
It's hilarious, like I laughedout loud so many times, so many
times, really, really funny and,interestingly, the pacing feels

(56:52):
very slow for 2025.
Both are true, which is reallyinteresting.
So let me see if I can, kind ofbefore you, okay, before I do
before I do before you.

Speaker 2 (57:04):
Uh, this is one of the movies that has caused me to
reflect that there is far lessbody swapping in adulthood than
I was led to believe Agreed,agreed, yeah, yeah.
From our childhood I thought itwas going to be like you know,
at least, at least once a year,yeah, and and the reason why I

(57:28):
bring it up now is because a lotof it is like the acting, yeah,
of like people like tom hanksand like just master actors who
like sold it yeah, made me thinkthis has got to happen.
I mean, obviously tom hanksknows how to do this because
it's happened to him.

Speaker 1 (57:48):
Yeah, yeah, totally, I'm with you.
I'm with you.
Yeah, all right, so just wantedto put that out there, thank
you, yeah, so I think the coreof what's interesting and
delightful about this movie isthe questions that Penny
Marshall and whoever the writersare that I named- Gary Ross and

(58:13):
Ann Spielberg.
Penny Marshall, gary Ross, annSpielberg thank you for
remembering their names wereasking about maturity and
adulthood and the fact thatadulthood and play don't have to
be mutually exclusive, and Ithink those questions and those

(58:33):
hypotheses that they wereputting forward remain relevant
and fascinating and fun, and andI think we still have something
to learn from the idea that,from the idea that tapping into

(59:03):
our inner 13-year-old now andthen, and putting aside the
jockeying for status andposition, is not just worth
doing but actually healthy andto be desired, and I think that
remains really powerful anddelightful in this film.

Speaker 2 (59:10):
I recently had a friend mentioning that she's in
a rut and it's not likedepression, exactly, it's just a
rut, and the advice I gave herwas, when I feel like that is, I
think back to what did youngEmily, child Emily, love to do?
That I don't do anymore and godo that and go do that, and that

(59:35):
that, like it, just reconnectsme with a part of myself that
gets neglected.

Speaker 1 (59:40):
Yeah, yeah.
Put another way.
I have sometimes said joy isfor grownups.
Yeah, so, so that's it for kidstricks are for kids, but joy is
for grownups.
Yeah, so, so that's it for kidstricks are for kids, but joy is
for grownups.
So that is, that's a.
That's a thing that I think isfeels really important, and and
part and parcel with that is isan indictment of the toxic

(01:00:00):
masculinity that creates sort ofrivalries and like intentional
humiliation and intentional sortof like diminishing people,
especially in front of otherpowerful people, like there's a
complete indictment of that inJohn Hurd's Paul and the way
that he responds to Josh.

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
Tom Hanks' Josh.
Well, and then you mentionedearlier that, to the movie's
credit and to their credit, theolder kids, when Josh is too
small to get on the ride, arenot cruel and do not humiliate
him.
So it's an indictment, which isnot necessarily true.
I mean, kids can be cruel, butit's making it clear that that

(01:00:44):
is immaturity that is embracedby adults.

Speaker 1 (01:00:53):
Right, yes, right.
So thank you for putting thosetwo in conversation.
I think you're right.
I think that's important tonote the difference between the
kids at the ride and Paul, yeah.
So all of that feels reallyremains, it holds up in the
backward look.
The piece of the adult,childlike thing that doesn't is
the romance and sexualrelationship between Josh and

(01:01:14):
Susan.
Susan's a grown-ass adult andJosh is a 13-year-old boy,
despite the fact that he'swearing Tom Hanks' body, and so
the romance between them is thesex between them in particular.
But the romance also is icky,both because, like Josh, was not
in a place where he wasemotionally mature enough to be

(01:01:34):
having a sexual relationship andbecause when Susan and the
other woman are sort of likehe's wonderful, like this is a
desirable person, like it feedsand is fed by the notion that a
parental-type relationship, amother-type relationship with a

(01:01:56):
romantic partner is something tobe desired.
You pointed that out and I'mgrateful to you for naming it
explicitly because I wasn'tquite wrapping my arms around
what was icky about the romance.
But that's it, and we notedthat if the genders were swapped
, it's clear that that's icky,in part because adult men do
that to girls all the time totry and justify sexual

(01:02:23):
attraction, which is obviouslyicky.
So that piece of it feelsuncomfortable and inappropriate
by today's eyes in ways that, aswe pointed out, the characters
don't do anything wrong, but thestorytellers did, maybe and I

(01:02:43):
want to give Penny Marshall thebenefit of the doubt and even
Gary Ross and Ann Spielberg thatthey were getting pressure from
sort of execs who were readingmarketing reports and said that
romance and sex were necessaryin order to sell a movie and not
actually that they thought thatthat was serving the story,
because it actually feels out ofcharacter that Josh would go

(01:03:06):
through with it, that Josh wouldgo through with it.
And then later, the way thatJosh talks about Susan, when he
says there are a million reasonsfor me to go back, that is, to
being a kid, and only one tostay and that's you that just
doesn't read true to me anymore.
And then, like part of what Ijust said, we talked about, kind

(01:03:26):
of at the end, where we werewondering, like in the hands of
a male director, how this wouldhave been different and or if
Penny Marshall had felt trulyfree to make the movie without
constraints of, like what thestudio wanted, what might have
been different, like as thisvery powerful for the 80s I mean

(01:03:48):
, she was one of very, very few,uh, successful female directors
in 88 and we noted that shewent on to make league of their
own, where that eschews aromance.
Even though there's an obviouspairing, it does not do that in
league of their own, which weare putting on the list, um, and
this movie does and and and and.

(01:04:11):
In league of their own at least, they would have been age
appropriate, right so?
So that's like a question thatwe'll never probably never know
the answer to, but it's kind ofinteresting to speculate about.
I feel like I'm missingsomething.
What am I missing?

Speaker 2 (01:04:25):
well, we talked a little bit about the place of
the parenting in this and in MrsBaskin's heartbreak and how we
did get a window to that in thisfilm, and not sure if we would
have in a different director'shands, right, right.

Speaker 1 (01:04:46):
Okay, any final thoughts?

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
Just want to like reiterate the, the magic that we
talk about in, specifically thepiano and the trampoline scenes
in, and part of what's magical,is like accepting joy, the
power of play, yeah, which issomething that you know it is so

(01:05:14):
easy to forget, and part ofwhat why Tom Hanks is a beloved
actor is in this film.
I mean, he's, he's all inplaying a 13 year old in a in an
adult body, but, um, it is kindof like the, a 13 year old in
an adult body, but it is kind oflike the, the, the power of
play, and the, the accepting joy, is something that you kind of

(01:05:34):
need to do wholeheartedly, whichI think is also what you need
to do to act, to act as well andas masterfully as Tom Hanks
does.
And so it's thatwholeheartedness, that that
complete like acceptance of themoment that you're in, is why

(01:05:55):
Tom Hanks is so beloved as anactor, why he's so good as an
actor and why he's so enduring.
You know he started off inBosom Buddies with Peter Scolari
and you know it was a sitcom,and and you know he has gone on
to make things that are likeoscar winning and like amazing,

(01:06:16):
because there is within him thatspark of josh baskin which is
like I'm in it entirely, yeah,and you know, that's what actors
do you know?
Some of it has to do with, like, particular skill and ability
and stuff like that, but I thinka lot of it can be about that,

(01:06:37):
that willingness to let go.
Yeah, and that's what next week.

Speaker 1 (01:06:47):
You are bringing me some deep thoughts.

Speaker 2 (01:06:49):
Yes, I am bringing you my deep thoughts on Chasing
Amy, the Kevin Smith film.
Have you ever seen it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:57):
I have read about it.
I have not seen it.
I've seen other Kevin Smithfilms.
I have not seen that one.

Speaker 2 (01:07:01):
This film and then the film In and Out are the two
films that I now look back.
Go in and out are the two filmsthat I now look back.
Go, oh, I should have known Iwas neurodivergent.

Speaker 1 (01:07:11):
I can't remember my reactions to those Interesting.
All right, well, I'll lookforward to hearing that then.
So, I'll tell you all about itnext week.
Sounds great.
See you then.
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