January 7, 2025 • 68 mins
We’re reasonable Guy(girl)s, but we’ve just experienced some very unreasonable things!
The 1986 film Big Trouble In Little China elicits some deep thoughts from Tracie in this week’s episode. The interwebs ask whether BTILC is woke or problematic, and we suggest the answer is ‘yes.' While the campy depictions of Chinese and Chinese-American culture are over-the-top and dripping with stereotypes, they do not make their subject the butt of the joke, and in fact seem to be winking at the audience. At the same time, Jack Burton (Kurt Russel) thinks he’s the hero, but he is very much Wang Chi’s (Dennis Dun) sidekick. In fact, Jack is so ineffective as a hero he spends most of the key fight scene unconscious and instead of a romantic and passionate kiss, he receives a face-wipe after defeating the big bad. It’s a delightful subversion of the heroic, manly white hero we’ve been conditioned to expect.
This is gonna take crackerjack timing, don’t wait to press play!
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
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We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
If I made a nightclub based on He-Man, it would look
like this.
It would look like this sceneLike there's this big skull at
the top but everything is linedin neon what others might deem
stupid shit.
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
We're sisters, tracy and Emily,collectively known as the Guy
(00:22):
Girls.
Every week, we take turnsre-watching, researching and
reconsidering beloved media andsharing what we learn.
Come overthink with us and ifyou get value from the show,
please consider supporting us.
You can become a patron onPatreon or send us a one-time
tip through Ko-fi Both links arein the show notes and thanks
(00:45):
tip through Ko-fi.
Both links are in the shownotes.
And thanks.
I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts About
Stupid Shit, because popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't?
You know what's in your head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1986 film Big Trouble inLittle China with my sister,
emily Guy-Burken, and with you,let's dive in my sister, emily
(01:08):
Guy-Burken, and with you, let'sdive in Em.
I know you saw this becausethis is one of the ones that I
think we watched, like with ourcousin.
But what do you remember aboutBig Trouble in Little China.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Very little.
I remember that it hinged on awoman with green eyes yep I
remember that kurt russell was auh truck driver.
Yep, I remember, like crazyfight scenes, yep, and I think I
think his name is james wongjames hong so um.
(01:47):
He is in everything, everywhere,all at once yeah, that's
grandpa yeah so, and I like he'ssomeone who is like just kind
of a character actor that I,every time I see him, I'm like
that guy.
So that is about the extent ofit.
Oh, and Kim Cattrall, pre-sexand the City, uh-huh.
(02:11):
So that's the extent of it.
That's what I remember.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Well, I mean, that's kind of a lot, honestly,
honestly.
So tell me, why are we talkingabout it today?
Yeah, so we're talking aboutthis because of Alison, hi,
alison.
Alison is one of my bestfriends and, uh, a listener and
a patron, and this is one of herfavorite movies, and so it got
(02:40):
on the list as a result of herbeing like you guys should do
Make Trouble in Little China,and it is one that I definitely
remember watching at Grandma'shouse with Chris.
And so here we are, you'rewelcome.
So there's a lot to talk aboutin this film this is a John
(03:02):
Carpenter film about in thisfilm, this, uh, so this is a
john carpenter film and, um,it's, it's the camp is like
dialed up to 11 and it's reallyinteresting like watching it.
I think there's a lot of like,like talk on the interwebs about
this film, which was not verysuccessful in the box office but
has become sort of a cultclassic, uh, and it like a lot
(03:25):
of people are like woke orproblematic, like as if those
are the only two choices, likethat's kind of the conversation
that happens about this film,and, um, I think the answer is
neither.
Well, it is problematic, butnot, I think in the ways that
like not quite in the ways thatI think people like at first
glance claim that it is, uh,from so many you know, like
(03:49):
white guys surrounded by Asiandudes kind of a film, right,
like really lampoons, that italso like dials up the
(04:12):
Orientalism and exoticization ofChinese culture to such a
degree that it is camp andtherefore is also making fun of
Orientalism and, uh, you know,the exoticization of Chinese
culture.
And ultimately, the point thatI want to make is that, like
(04:35):
Russell's character Jack Burtonis his name thinks that he is
the hero of this story, but he'sactually the sidekick, and the
movie makes that plain over andover and over again that Jack
Burton is actually the sidekickto Dennis Dunn's Wenqi.
So that's kind of like whereI'm going to land.
There are a couple of otherthings to talk about which I
(04:59):
think is really significant in1986 and why I say this film is
maybe.
Maybe, instead of sayingneither, I should say it's both
woke and problematic.
So let me do my best.
Synopsis.
I have Wikipedia because thisfilm is insane.
I mean, I absolutely.
(05:21):
Remember thinking that as a kid,like as a kid, I remember
thinking it as a kid, like as akid, I remember thinking it was
insane I re-watched, so Iwatched it and my spouse watched
it with me and, like, at acertain point I like paused it
and I was like we're only 25minutes in so much happened,
(05:42):
gosh yeah, so I think if Iactually gave the full
play-by-play, this would be likea two-hour episode.
So I will not do that, um, butI'm actually going to.
I have the wikipedia synopsisup on my screen and I'll I'll do
.
I'll maybe give a little bit ofcolor commentary on that, but
I'm trying to stick to it, justso that we can wrap this up in a
(06:03):
reasonable amount of time.
So we open um, there's like aframe story where a sort of
skeptical white police officer,maybe, but like in plain clothes
, is interviewing, um, a mannamed egg shen who is played by
(06:26):
victor wong, who's also like afairly well-known chinese
character actor.
So, um, this, this whitedetective is interviewing egg
shen and is saying, like, what,what, what's your version of the
story?
And Egg Shen says do you mean?
What's the truth?
And like, and what does JackBurton have to do with it?
(06:50):
And Egg Shen's like you need toleave him alone.
He's a good guy, he showed alot of courage, he did his best
for us.
And then the detective is, like, do you really believe in this
magic and stuff?
And Egg Shen's like I mean, ofcourse, because it's real.
And then he like does a thingwith his hands where like little
(07:12):
lightning bolts go between hishands to like prove that sorcery
is real.
Oh, and they mentioned like awhole city block being engulfed
in green flame and that Jack hadsomething to do with it.
So that's sort of the frame,like the setup.
Then we actually meet JackBurton.
(07:33):
He's in his truck, it's atnight, he's wearing sunglasses
and talking into the CB radiolike just like I don't know,
like John waning it abouthimself.
It's really obnoxious.
But then he ends up at um.
He ends up in Chinatown.
He's delivering that.
His truck is called the porkchop express, so he's like
delivering pigs, I guess I don'tknow Um, but he an 18 wheeler.
(07:56):
He's delivering uh intoChinatown.
It's raining, he's.
He ends up playing some sort ofgambling game that looks vaguely
like dominoes, but I didn'tunderstand.
It was not a game that I wasfamiliar with, like so anyway.
But he's playing a domino, somesort of like dominoes, like
gambling game with a bunch he'slike the only white dude a bunch
of chinese uh folks, uh sittingaround the table playing um and
(08:18):
he wins, and wang chi played bydenn Dunn um as like kind of
out, like put out by the factthat Jack has one um, and says
double or nothing, uh, for, likethe.
The bet is that Wang can, uh,slice a glass bottle in half
(08:39):
with a machete.
Or slice it with a machete, um,like on the table, or slice it
with a machete, um, like on thetable.
And um, they do thisspecifically to establish that
Jack has great reflexes, becauseWang does it and his mind and
body, uh, or spirit and body,are not aligned, and so he
doesn't actually slice thebottle, it like it doesn't crack
either, it just like slidesacross the table really, really
(09:00):
quickly and Jack catches it.
So now we've established Jackhas great reflexes.
That's an important point.
Okay, so Wang can't pay upright now.
He needs to go to the airportto pick up his fiance.
He's been saving up to bringher over from, they say, peking,
and Jack's like I'll take you,because he wants to get paid.
(09:24):
So they get to the airport,they're waiting for the fiance,
whose name is Mao Yin.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
So in the semi he takes him.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Yeah, it doesn't have a trailer.
Oh, okay, just the cab, the cab, okay yeah, okay yeah.
So they're at the airport,they're waiting for Mao Yin and
they see a white woman, kimCattrall, whose name is Gracie
Law.
And Jack sees her and instantlyis like who is that?
(09:56):
And of course Wang knows her.
He says she's trouble, stayaway from her.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
She's a lawyer and her name is Gracie Law.
Gracie Law.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Okay, so there's a group of like five guys who are
dressed really tough and when Isay tough I mean like the Sharks
and the Jets, tough, but likeChinese guys, but like dress
like the sharks and the jetsfrom um West side story, like
tough and like mean mugging, youknow.
Anyway, gracie says she nameswhat a gang, that they are from
(10:39):
Chinatown and they're bad news,and I don't remember the name of
the gang, but um, so they're.
They're actually Gracie's thereto meet a young Chinese woman
named Tara, and the gang isthere to like kidnap her or
something.
So Gracie manages to save Tara,but then Mal Yen gets abducted,
(11:00):
abducted, the fiance.
So, uh, wang and Jack are likegoing after the gang who have
Mao Yin.
Um, they're in the parkinggarage, like whatever the guys
almost the bad guys almost runthem down in this like sports
(11:21):
car that they're driving Likecause they are standing like in
the roadway to try and stop themand they just they don't even
slow down.
So Jack does end up sort ofpulling Wang out of the way.
Um, so they go back to Wang'srestaurant where he works with
his uncle and they're talkingabout the fact that these guys
have Mao Yin and Wang convincesJack to like help him, try and
(11:43):
get her back to.
So they go into, they're drivingthrough Chinatown and they're
being chased and like Wang'slike turn right now.
It's like very exciting.
And they end up in this backalley and then they see like a
funeral and it's these guys andthey're all wearing like the
same kind of clothes.
And Wang's like no, these arethis guy.
And he names another gang andhe's like they're the good guys,
(12:05):
it's a funeral, this guy diedand so they're just sitting
there in this like cab of thissemi like watching this funeral
with like drums and like bannersand stuff.
The funeral's like right comingright down the middle of the
alley.
So they're just like they can'tgo anywhere.
They're just watching thishappen.
Then Jack notices in the rearview, in the side mirrors, like
(12:26):
mean looking dudes in like blackand red I don't even know what
to call them Like uniforms isthe word that's coming to mind
Like karate uniforms kind of athing, like I don't know what
they actually are.
And Jack's like Wang who arethese guys?
And it's like some other gangand they're not good guys and
like this huge fight.
(12:47):
And then a third gang shows up,this huge fight with like, lots
of guns and like.
And here's the start of jackbeing um kind of undercut as the
hero.
He pulls this big knife out ofhis boot and he's like holding
it, like tough guy right, andthen these guys, they're like
doing kung fu and then they pullout guns, and there's guns
(13:10):
everywhere and he's sitting.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
He's sitting there in his truck holding this knife
right, which is a literal knifeto a gunfight to a gunfight.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
And then these dudes show up wearing these giant, the
three dudes, wearing thesegiant baskets as hats that they
come out of the sky.
I remember the hats.
I remember that, yes, like chinstraps, yeah, and they start
like shooting lightning boltsout of their hands and Jack is
like what is happening?
(13:44):
And Wang's like drive, justdrive, drive.
And then that's when the guythat you remember, lopan, james
Hong's character, like stands infront of the truck and Wang's
like just drive, just drive.
And like Jack drives throughhim, he like kind of goes under,
but it's like not whatever, andlike jack freaks the heck out,
(14:08):
like what just happened?
Who is that guy?
So they, they abandon the truck, they go back to the restaurant
.
Next thing we see jack is onthe phone with his insurance
company trying to like reportthe truck as destroyed, lost,
whatever, uh, and it's not goingvery well.
Meanwhile we're getting a lotof exposition about who these
(14:29):
guys are and the James Hong'scharacter, lopan, cleverly
disguised as David Lopan, is,like you know, businessman
facade.
He is a ghost, effectively'slike a thousand years old, he's
been cursed, so he doesn't haveflesh, uh, and okay, okay, I
(14:55):
don't, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
However, that works however, that works.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
So we meet a couple other folks who, like no Wang,
who are uh, you know, work inthe restaurant or are relatives
or whatever.
Egg Shen shows up.
He's the guy from the verybeginning.
He drives a bus for tourists,called like the Egg Fu Young
Tourist, something or other, andhe's like reading oracles and
he's like it's time we canactually take Lopan down now.
(15:22):
It's time we can actually takeLopan down now.
So Gracie comes, she shows upand she's like I know where Mao
Yin is and I can't go becausethey know who I am, so I can't
go.
So we need somebody who they'venever met.
So Kurt Russell's Jack is goingto go to try and rescue Mao Yin,
(15:42):
to try and rescue Mao Yin.
Mao Yin is special because shehas green eyes.
So they go to this whorehouse,basically, um, and we see Kurt
Russell in this like Clark Kentkind of a disguise, like with
glasses and his hair all slickeddown and like just in from Iowa
city, whatever, I don't evenremember, but it's so and he
(16:05):
goes into this place and he endsup in a back room with a girl
and he's kind of chatting withher and like trying to subtly
figure out where this where MaoYin might be.
He's not being as subtle as hethinks.
We see the madam kind of go tocheck on Malian, who is like in
this secret room and like tiedto a bed.
(16:27):
It's kind of gross.
Then the um lightning boltdudes with the basket hats show
up, destroy the whole buildingin green flame, which we heard
from the very beginning framestory, um, and take Malian uh up
and out and take Maoyan up andout.
(16:54):
So okay, wang is still, he'sgoing to save Maoyan, he's going
to save her.
He'll go by himself if he hasto.
He can't not.
And so Jack goes with him andthey go to infiltrate Lopin's
palace.
I don't know what to call it.
It's like a front, because he'smeant to be like a businessman.
David Lopin is a businessman inSan Francisco.
(17:15):
It's like the headquarters, soit's like a, like an office
building, but also where helives, but also like a palace,
it's anyway Um.
And so they go in, likeclaiming to be like workers for
the telephone company, but Ilike sort of like breeze through
(17:35):
and it's too easy.
And it is too easy Like Lopinknows.
They're there and it's like atrap, um, and we meet, we, they
go down and down and there areall these like Warren's
underneath Chinatown and there'slike just craziness, like magic
(17:56):
and monsters and insanity.
We meet David Lopin.
So he, when he has flesh and Idon't understand the magic of
this, so don't ask, cause Idon't get it when he has flesh
he's this ancient man in awheelchair, like a motorized
(18:17):
wheelchair, with like wispy,like he's meant to be, like Fu
Manchu, like with this, likewispy facial hair and head hair
and all these liver spots.
He looks to be 120 years old.
He knows who they are and hecalls them by name and we get a
little bit more exposition.
Lo Pan has been cursed athousand years ago.
(18:39):
In order to break the curse, heneeds to marry a green-eyed
woman and then he needs to killher.
So the marriage is for the Godwho cursed him and the death or
the sacrifice of the wife is forthe emperor, or vice versa.
I might have it backward.
(18:59):
So hijinks ensue.
Wang is a master fighter, jackis not.
Like jack manages, they're inum, they get.
They get like bound intowheelchairs.
(19:22):
Wang and Jack do, and Jack endsup like rolling backward down
this really steep slope in thewheelchair and inadvertently
knocking two bad guys down justbecause he's like falling and
then like almost falls in a pitand like that we do see his
strength, like he saves himself.
Um, anyway, they managed toescape and get back to the
(19:48):
restaurant and now they knowwhat's happening with the
marriage and stuff and it turnsout like Egg Shen is also like a
sorcerer and like his missionis to fight Lopan so cool.
So he gathers a small gang orcalls them, I'm not sure it
(20:09):
convenes them and wang and jackand egg lead this small band of
guys to go rescue mal yin andkill lopin and instead of going
in the front door as they didlast time, egg leads them via
the warrens of like caves andshit underneath of chinatown,
(20:30):
like to the palace, slashmansion, slash business hq.
So that's how they get in thistime again, again, lots of magic
.
They drink a potion that almostseems to be liquid luck from
Harry Potter.
(20:51):
They all just feel really goodand whatever.
And they end up in uh, there'slike a dungeon jail, like with
cells, and there's a bunch ofwomen in um cells down there,
including gracie and grace'sfriend, margo, played by kate
(21:13):
burton, who is a journalist whogracie brought in to try and
like expose lopin.
I'm not sure gracie realized hewas uh otherworldly.
I think she just thought he waslike a, you know well, he human
trafficking or something.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Yeah, yeah, I mean just considering like she knew
where malian was.
Yeah, no, I mean exactly in theworld.
That's not a john carpentermovie.
That makes sense.
It's an understandable thing todo exactly so mar.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
So Margo is.
So Margo and Gracie have bothbeen taken cap, Like it.
It made sense that how they gotin there, but they've both been
taken captive.
They actually like tried to getin again through the front door
, but they've been taken captivethere and in there.
So they managed to release allthe women and like Jack is like
leading them out and he's like,okay, let's go.
And he gets to this door and heopens the door and there's like
(22:07):
a whole gang of bad guys on theother side.
So again undercutting hisefficacy as a hero.
So he tells them to all run andhide because the bad guys have
only seen him.
And then but Wang stays behindand fights with him, but like
fights alongside him and theyfight the guys and like again,
(22:28):
like jack ends up the gun he haslike jams and then like he
pulls his knife out of his bootand it like goes skittering and
so he goes after it and by thetime he comes back like jumps
out from behind, like a thinglike ha, I'm ready.
Like wang has completely, youknow, uh, disabled all of the
bad guys.
So like again, you know,undercuts the sort of heroics of
(22:53):
of our hero, Okay.
So they're on their way out,they're like escaping and they
actually.
Jack says I'm going to take upthe lead, you take up the rear.
Gracie, they don't have Malian.
(23:14):
She was in another part of thebecause she's going to marry.
He needs her to.
Lopin needs her to marry him.
So he's got her in this weirdtrance where she's like
levitating and like trance-likeand whatever.
So we've, we've seen him kindof talk to her, uh, in her
unconscious state, in hisfleshless state, where he is
(23:36):
younger, uh and can't actuallytouch her.
So she's not with them.
But they escape, excepteverybody gets out, except
Gracie who gets grabbed by thislike Chewbacca looking thing,
but like much, much scarier.
So they're in Egg's bus andthey escape and they and then
(24:04):
they realize Gracie's not withthem and Malian's not there
either.
So they have to go back againto try and stop the wedding.
I'm probably messing this upy'all, but it doesn't matter, it
really doesn't.
I don't think it matters.
It honestly doesn't matter.
I think it might be now thatthey actually take the liquid
(24:25):
luck.
I no-transcript, but everythingis lined in neon.
(24:49):
And then there's this likeescalator that comes down from
the mouth of the skull.
So Lopin like glides down fromthe mouth of the skull, from
like the mezzanine, andeverything's lined in neon.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
This is where I want to spend my New Year's Sounds
amazing.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
We learn that Lopin has decided to marry both of the
women because Gracie also hasgreen eyes.
So he's going to marry both ofthem.
He's going to keep Mao Yin ashis wife and kill Gracie so that
he can have his cake and eat ittoo.
So, um, both of the women arein this sort of again
(25:33):
trance-like state Now.
They're all dressed up in likevery fancy Chinese clothes, with
makeup and headdresses andeverything, and their eyes are
rolled back in their head.
So I guess the green eyes don'tmatter for the actual ceremony
because they just, they're justwhite.
So the ceremony, so, so, so Jackand egg and Wang and the dudes
(25:55):
are all like watching this fromthe floor, like presumably um,
unobserved by low pan and andhis guys and Wang's like we got
to stop it.
And Egg says no, we have to letthe ceremony happen, because we
can't kill Lopan until he'smarried, but then he becomes
flesh and we can kill him.
So we watch the wedding, whichis so weird.
(26:19):
Lopan says bring me the needleof love, and it's just like
really long, like, like, like,imagine, like knitting needle,
(26:40):
like silver knitting needle,which he then like presses into
um malian's wrist and uh, as asit's, and then he like, just
like a little bit, but then helike reaches into his own like
you know big oversized sleeveand and pulls it out and he has
(27:00):
blood on his fingers.
So he's really excited aboutthat, like it's working, it's
working, so, it's working, so,but apparently he needs to like
push this needle of love intoboth of her wrists or something
I don't, I don't know, I don'tknow.
I also don't know how he'sholding the needle of love,
because we've established thathe can't actually touch things
before.
Like he walks through walls andlike his hands pass through
(27:23):
Maoyin.
So I don't know, I don't know,I believe.
So the guys come in and theydecide okay, now it's time.
Like the egg sees that or no,sorry, they actually are seen by
it doesn't matter a magicalcreature.
So they've been seen, they'vebeen spotted, and so the fight
(27:43):
ensues Again.
Our savior hero like knockshimself out.
He shoots into the air like acool, you know hero which
dislodges a big chunk of likeconcrete or plaster or whatever
that falls out, hits him rightin the head and knocks him out.
So he is unconscious throughmost of the fight, while these
(28:06):
dudes are like going at it inthis like big choreographed Kung
Fu like lots and lots ofcombatants.
It's like awesome.
And he's like knocked out onthe floor.
Gracie wakes up from her tranceand sort of like, ends up like
kind of falling off the platformat the top where the skull is.
And and then Jack wakes up, hegoes looking for her.
(28:33):
He finds her and they're likekind of like escaping and they
end up in this like I don't knowelevator, and there's like this
sexual tension between him,between them, which, by the way,
earlier he made passes at herand she was like uh, no.
But now in this like shareddanger, like she's kind of
feeling it.
They end up like she actuallyis like I can't believe this is
(28:55):
real, like that's what she says,like I can't believe this is
real about they're smooching.
She's got all of this makeup onbecause of the wedding thing.
So he ends up with red, redlipstick.
I remember that, I rememberthat.
So when they actually confrontlopin, he's got this like red,
red lipstick on and so he hasthat knife that we've seen
(29:18):
before.
Um and uh, he's like he'sthat's his, his, his weapon, and
lopin, like magically, sort ofclaims it, like pulls it to
himself and he's like he'sthat's his, his, his weapon, and
lopin like magically sort ofclaims it like, pulls it to
himself and he's like nice knife, goodbye, mr burton.
And he throws it at him.
But we've seen jack has greatreflexes, he catches it and
throws it back immediately andit lands like right in um
(29:39):
lopin's skull, like, between youknow, forehead.
So jack actually does in factkill Lopin.
Hooray, he's reunited withGracie, like she's been sort of
like hiding or shielding herself, like not in a cowardly way, um
in a smart way.
She comes back and like thefirst thing she does is like
wipe the lipstick off of hismouth, which feels significant.
(30:03):
Um, so the, the, the dudes in inthe basket hats are like really
, uh, upset by their master'sdeath.
So the one dude who we we'veseen, you know, fighting before,
like he starts to like we'veseen him kind of like bulk up
(30:25):
out of sheer force of will,almost like the incredible hulk.
This time it kind of gets outof control and he like just
starts expanding and just getsfatter and fatter and fatter,
with like steam coming out ofhis nostrils until he literally
explodes.
They're running, they like findtheir people, they all get out.
It's amazing, they made it out.
(30:45):
So hooray, and they killedLopan and the other guys are
dead and it's awesome.
So we're back at the restaurantand we see, like Margo and one
of the guys have coupled up andlike Wang and Mao Yin are like
coupled up and smoochy, smoochy,and Gracie's back in her own
(31:09):
clothes with her normal makeupon and, um, jack is like I guess
it's time for me to hit theroad, like it's like a total
John Wayne kind of animpersonation, and she's
Gracie's like I don't rememberexactly how it goes, but she
says something like is it maybeyou could buy a new truck that
(31:32):
has room for two?
And he's like no, I don't thinkso.
And she's like okay, and thenhe's like leaving and Margo's
like you aren't even gonna giveher a kiss or goodbye, and he
looks at her and he goes nope,and he leaves.
And then we get.
Now we're back from thebeginning, where he's on the cb
(31:54):
in the dark, in the rain,wearing sunglasses, talking
about how I don't even rememberthere was a phrase that probably
is important where he's talkingabout like you know what, what
Jack says, what old Jack says,and I don't remember what Jack
says, but he's like being likeJohn Wayne on the CB and we like
zoom out and the scaryChewbacca climbs up from sort of
(32:15):
the undercarriage of the semi.
Oh, he found the semi it was in.
It was parked in David Lopan.
That's part of how they escaped.
It's like they all climb intothe, into the truck and they and
he just busts through the thewall.
So it's more there's.
I I'm sure I got it all out oforder, but, like y'all, it
(32:36):
doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter.
Like it's fighting and it'smagic and kurt russell's jack
looks ridiculous.
That's pretty much how it goes,so I'll just get this out of
the way.
It actually does pass bechtel,because margo and, uh, gracie
(32:58):
talk about things besides men.
That it's not particularlyfeminist.
As I said before I started thesynopsis, I think like the real
crux of like the question with2024 eyes that that commentators
seem to have is like is it wokeor is it problematic?
And so, straight watching it,I'm like, as I was watching it,
(33:24):
I was like, straight watching it, I'm like, as I was watching it
, I was like, I mean, there's alot of Chinese actors in here,
but is any of this at all Likeeven a seed of truth of Chinese
culture?
Like it just feels so whitepeople vision of Chinese culture
and so I think that's why folksare like problematic right,
(33:52):
like it wouldn't be me today,because it is not the way that
we do things today, for goodreason.
At the same time, as far as Ican tell, with one exception.
Same time, as far as I can tell, with one exception chinese
americans really loved thismovie when it came out I don't
(34:13):
mean one, one person, I meanlike one group, one group um so
contemporaneously, like it was.
It was fun and it was funny andthe, as I say, wang is the hero
.
He is, no question, the guy whoactually saves the girl, gets
the girl, wins the fights.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
He is not a sidekick.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
And I think that was fairly rare, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Well, and at the same time, like poking fun at Kurt
Russell, who, who was, I feel,like a reasonably big name in
the 80s, like it's hard to I Idon't really know when he was
like snake plissken and and likeyou know other things where he
was.
Kurt russell, capital k,capital r yeah I don't know if
he was.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
I don't know if he was yet in 86, but he was
certainly on his way yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
So it would be kind of like I don't know if, like
keanu reeves, had a similar kindof role yeah or or um you know,
uh bruce willis said in his, inhis prime it like one
commentator sort of said he'slike han, solo except
ineffective yeah, yeah, so hethinks he's Han Solo exactly he
(35:25):
thinks he's Han Solo yeah, yeahand but the movie doesn't.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
The movie does not think he's Han Solo, and I mean
it.
The movie likes him, like weare meant to feel affectionately
toward him have you seen umMitchell's versus the machines?
I have uh-huh.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
so you remember the dog, manchi, who can't see, yeah
and like and the and.
So when they the, at the veryend the dog is the one who is
able.
I have Right, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
Yeah, and the fact that the camp was dialed up to
11-2, it's kind of like theHebrew hammer or something,
right, like a lot of Jews likethat stuff.
It's like that stuff yeah, likereally funny.
Yeah, so it doesn't feel like a, it doesn't feel like like the
Hebrew hammer, doesn't feel likeJews are the butt of the joke.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Yes, because we're in on it, yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
I think for most Chinese Americans, as far as I
can tell again, not ChineseAmerican, just in case that
wasn't clear to any listeners.
I am not Chinese American, justin case that wasn't clear to
any listeners.
I am not, but from what I'mseeing from sort of
contemporaneous andretrospective views like that
was the way it was received.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
So this gets to something that I have been
thinking about quite a bit.
So when I was teaching highschool, I taught the Odyssey
every year and I showed ohBrother when Art Thou.
I taught the Odyssey every yearand I showed oh Brother when
Art Thou and I, my first year ofteaching, I ended up showing it
on a day that I had a sub showit to me and I came back the
next day and the kids were likewhy'd you show us that racist
(37:17):
movie?
And I was like I'm sorry, whatnow?
And they're like well, there'sthe KKK in it.
And they were going to, youknow, they were going to lynch
you know this black guy.
And and I realized now theseare 14 year olds and this is
also it's nearly 20 years ago,this was 2006 or so, and so like
(37:37):
I think that we talk aboutthings differently with with
kids now than than we did thenand particularly in that, than
we did then and particularly inthat where I was teaching, but
so the kids were not able todistinguish between a portrayal
of racism and a movie beingracist, and so and I've realized
(37:57):
that that is it's not confinedto 14 year olds.
You know, now with the 14 yearolds I was like, oh, oh, I see
what's going on here.
Ok, we're going to talk aboutthis.
But I also see it from adultssometimes where, like this is
racist, and then it's nuancedlike that.
That issue is nuanced by thefact that there are some
(38:21):
portrayals of racism where andI'm thinking specifically of the
show family guy I actuallyreally liked family guy when it
was first out, and then therewas a point where I was like I
can't do this anymore about theshow and one of the things was
seth seth mcfarland, who thecreator of the show uh and
(38:42):
writer uh, was talking about howhis character, p Peter Griffith
, is racist and sexist and allof that.
And he said, yes, but we put putthose horrible things in his
mouth, cause look at the source,he's awful.
And it was very clear to me thatMcFarlane was having his cake
and eating it too, because hewas like yes, but you make it
(39:05):
funny where he doesn't feel likethe butt of the joke for having
that racist opinion and we'resupposed to extrapolate that
he's wrong and like sometimesyou show that he's wrong,
sometimes you have him take apratfall for being so awful, but
(39:27):
not always, and so so like thisis like I feel like this sits
very much in the center of that,like recognizing that, like we
need to talk about the fact thatyou can show awful things, even
in a comedic way, withoutcondoning the awful things, or
even by, like making it clear,so like, because that was the
(39:50):
thing I told the kids with abrother where art that was like
I get what you're saying andlike I should have talked about
it before you know, so you knewthat that was coming, um, but
recognize that the protagonistsare not doing that.
They see that it's wrong, theysee that it's awful and they do
what they can to save and I'veforgotten the character's name
(40:11):
but save, save the, the, the manwho's going to be lynched.
And we see that the, the KKKmembers, get their comeuppance
in a funny way.
So, like, take that as likethey're the butt of the joke.
The racism is the butt of thejoke, as compared to Peter
Griffin saying somethinghorribly sexist or horribly
(40:36):
racist, and it just that beingthe joke, it just sits there.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Yeah, I think the other layer is parody, right
like lopin is very much, veryclearly sort of the fu manchu
character who had been likewhat's the word I'm looking for?
Like, like this, this is acaricature, it's a, it's a, it's
a parody of a lot of the sortof Orientalist movies that would
(41:07):
put the John Wayne-likecharacter as the savior, as the
hero against the sort of exoticand mysterious Chinese magic
James Bond film you Only LiveTwice, where Sean Connery is in
yellowface and is able toinfiltrate a Japanese big, bad
(41:34):
volcano lair.
I don't remember exactly Ihaven't seen that one, but yeah,
so I think that that's also apiece of it that isn't in the
examples that you gave but alsois added to.
So there's a little bit of likewinking at the audience, that
(41:55):
like airplane where the audiencecomes in with some things that
then are being lampooned, thatwe brought in with us, which now
in 2024 is less obvious, but in86 would have been very obvious
yes, you know the other aspectof it.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
I think that is interesting because john
carpenter did.
He did he write the film, or Imean um.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
It was directed by him.
I don't think he wrote so thescreen.
It was written by Gary Goldmanand David Weinstein, adapted by
WD Richter um and and directedby Carpenter carpenter.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Okay.
So, um, a couple of nice jewishboys wrote it, yep, um, which
is another that that honestlyputs another spin on it for for
me, in that two jewish men areused to seeing white culture
completely misunderstand theirown culture and exoticize it,
(43:06):
and so there's, there's, there'san aspect of that.
So what I the reason I broughtthat up is there is this sense
of and specifically I'm thinkingof Tina Fey, where there is for
lack of a better word a wokewhite creator who makes jokes
(43:30):
poking fun of racism or pokingfun of whatever system that they
have privilege from rock andthe star, and she has a lot of
jokes in there about race, about, you know, specifically, the
(43:51):
interaction between white folksand black folks, and she felt
very comfortable writing thosein a way that, in looking back,
I'm a little uncomfortable with,because she was a white woman,
is a white woman, and she didn'tnecessarily have a black
co-author.
So basically, what I'm sayingis you sometimes get creators
(44:15):
who are like the well-meaningwhite people, who are like I see
how stupid this is.
I'm going to make a parody of it, I'm in on it and I don't think
that there's there'snecessarily anything on it and I
don't think that there'snecessarily anything wrong with
that.
I don't think that that'snecessarily a bad thing.
I think where, like Tina Fey,makes me a little uncomfortable
in retrospect, at the time Ididn't see any problem with it.
(44:37):
I do want to make that clear.
But where that kind of gets usinto trouble is when you do that
without necessarily input frompeople from the marginalized
community who you're trying towink with, right, you know, yep,
and so now again, I am not inany way going to claim that
(45:02):
being Jewish is the same asbeing Chinese in terms of
exoticism of one's culture, butI feel like I am a little bit
relieved that it was two niceJewish boys and not someone
named Ed Whitbread.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
Yeah, I guess I don't know I mean.
So I am comforted by the numberof Chinese actors.
Absolutely, I am comforted bythe number of Chinese actors who
are, who have great roles, likereally great roles.
Yeah, I do wish there were aname with you know, some, a name
(45:50):
on the writing credits whoshare that identity.
That would be more comfortingand I know this.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
This has more to do with the lack of roles for
chinese actors, but this, whenyou think about it, you remember
it as oh, Kurt Russell versusyou know magic and so, and in
fact there's a there's a romancenovel by Jennifer Kruse called
(46:20):
Bet Me, where there's a pointwhere the character is looking
at the newspaper and there's arevival and it's like you're in
big trouble in Little China.
She's like oh, Kurt Russellfights the bad guys.
We can go see that.
I mean, that is, it's Hollywood.
Kurt Russell is a Hollywoodname.
Kim Cattrall came to be a verybig name.
Right, I know, Dennis Dunn didnot, Did not.
(46:42):
Now, James Hong Did I did.
He was the bad guy, but he wasthe bad guy and he also, like he
, I think I mean he was in hisfifties at the time Sounds right
Like he's not a young man andhe had a long career even before
this, if I recall.
(47:02):
So, like some of it is likejust, dude is, he's a working
actor and persistent and youknow, and he's very good.
He's a very good actor um, Iwonder.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
I saw in my research which was not extensive, folks,
I saw a rumor at least thatJackie Chan was actually
originally envisioned for theWang character and, for whatever
reason, was unavailable, and soDennis Dunn got it.
And Dennis Dunn does a greatjob.
I really don't want to sell himshort.
I believed him and I wonder ifjackie chan had been in this
(47:43):
movie, if we might not call itoh, jackie chan versus the bad
guys or jackie chan and kurtrussell versus the bad guys.
I wonder if a, anyway, the likecultural kind of capital that
(48:07):
Jackie Chan has would havecarried it differently, I wonder
.
So I mean, I'm not even surewhere I'm, where I'm going with
that, but it's I, it's somethingto note.
So I want to talk about onespecific moment to in terms of
the well, the overarching kindof subversion that Carpenter
(48:32):
brings to this and Carpenter andRussell apparently have both
spoken about this, like this wasintentional of the kind of
undercutting of the johnwayne-esque jack um, jack
russell, jack burton, the johnwayne-esque jack burton um, at
every turn, like just kind ofmaking him ridiculous.
(48:52):
Um, that's an overarching thing.
Like you know, he's, he'sknocked out, he's otherwise
occupied, but the moment withthe lipstick, that I think is
really interesting to note.
We expect him to get the girl.
We have been taught that he'sgoing to get the girl and to a
(49:14):
certain extent the movie givesus that Because Gracie is not
interested.
In the beginning she tells himhe smells bad.
She's like you wish no way,don't touch me, don't get near
me.
She is unequivocal, she's notinterested, and then she is.
So to a certain extent we'regiven what we're supposed to
(49:39):
expect kind of enemies to loverskind of a thing.
And then they have the smoochysmooch with the lipstick.
But when they're reunited afterhe does the thing and kills the
bad guy, he's infantilizedbecause she wipes his mouth
because he's got the lipstick onit, so she with her sleeve,
(50:01):
because he's got the lipstick onit, so she with her sleeve.
So like that particularsubversion I find really really
interesting when thinking aboutlike this subversion of the
hero's.
It's not just his sort ofefficacy as a hero, as like a
(50:25):
weapon, if you will, it's alsohis efficacy as a lover, in so
far as that moment, like aftertriumph, when we anticipate like
a big, like smooch which iseuphemism for more, he's
infantilized and like thatdelights me.
Speaker 2 (50:54):
Well, especially because.
So one of the things I'mthinking is so he's wearing
accidentally wearing lipstickwhen he kills the big bad, yeah,
and so there are ways one couldlook at that as like he's so
macho, it doesn't even matterthat he's wearing lipstick Right
, and so having her wipe it offmakes it clear no, that's not
(51:17):
what was going on.
Yeah, that's not what it wasgoing on.
Yeah, that's not what it was.
That was like he's, he's alittle boy with a dirty face.
Yeah, um, and yeah, that'sthere's.
There's something that isdelightful, that's um, and like
(51:38):
also the good sportness of kurtrussell yeah, he was in on it.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
The actor was in on it, yeah, and he played it.
He played it because I meanagain and again like there's a
slapstick element to it where hekeeps like getting knocked down
or falls over or whatever like.
So there is a definiteslapstick piece of his, of the
subversion of his heroism.
That's not the only way it'ssubverted, but that's a big
(52:08):
piece of it and I think in orderfor it to believe, be
believable, russell had to likereally oh sure, yeah, I felt it,
yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:20):
So I have a question about, like, when he leaves um
and uh, like gracie's, like youknow, could you get a cab that's
big enough for two?
He's like nah, you said that.
She said okay, is that?
Speaker 1 (52:36):
like paul's.
Uh portrayal of it is just likeall right that's fantastic.
She's not there's no, there isno wailing and gnashing of teeth
from her at all.
I was like this is an option,all right.
Yeah, fair enough, like margo'smore upset about leaving than
gracie is yeah, yeah like shekind of shrugs that.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
That is also fantastic.
Yeah, because the the heroleaving the woman at the end is
not on like not unusual right,um, but her not caring that's
phenomenal yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, so, yeah, yeah, so the.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
So I guess I'll just just again like this is just for
listeners to like sort of share.
Like this.
This movie is just bizarre andlike delights in its own
bizarreness, right, like theexposition is so obvious, right,
(53:44):
and and also so silly.
Like the, the it's magical, butlike the torture rooms are
described as like the hell ofboiling oil and the hell where
they whip your, rip your fleshoff, and the hell where like and
like, like these verydescriptive of like, like that
happens to you there and likethose.
(54:05):
These are different rooms inthe, like warrens of the, you
know underground, but butbeneath chinatown and sort of
you know how um, lopan likeoperates.
And like the, the magical,mythical creatures, like there's
one that's like a guardian, eggshen calls it, and it's this
like floating head with lots ofeyes, including one on its
tongue.
Like, like, imagine like a,like a fat gargoyle head that
(54:29):
floats and has these like weirdlittle tentacles, like shrek's,
like, what are those things?
That shrek has those littleantennae but each of them has an
eyeball.
So what he sees, lopin sees.
What this guardian sees, lopinsees, it's just, it's just
ridiculous.
Looking like like it reminds meof slimer from the ghostbusters
two years prior.
Like just floating around, um,it's just, and you know the, the
(54:52):
guys with the baskets on theirheads and the lightning bolts,
and like it's just silly and andand it knows it's silly and it
does it anyway.
Like so it's like telling us astory, but it's not taking
itself too seriously.
And like the exposition, like Isaid, like he has to do x and
such and because that's the way,and then if he gets married,
(55:13):
and it has to appease theemperor and has to appease the
guy, and like so we get theselong like monologues from one of
the other dudes who areexplaining to Jack what's
happening and thereby providingthe exposition for us.
And it's obvious what'shappening, it's like you don't
even care because it's just, andlike other things that are
(55:34):
exposition.
But like almost startling.
Like at one point somebody says, oh, you know so, and so has a
crush on Margo.
Almost startling, like at onepoint somebody says, oh, you
know so, and so has a crush onmargo.
Like he's the maitre d at the,at the restaurant, who I can't
remember his name at the moment,but he, like is a sidekick who
like goes through all the stuffwith them and like what, what?
why are you telling us that he'sgot a crush on margo?
It's like so that it makessense at the end when they're
(55:56):
coupled up.
But like yeah it's just, I mean, it's really like look, look
audience.
Speaker 2 (56:05):
So well, but like, but it knows it's doing that?
That does it totally knowsthere's, uh, in the um, the, the
very first star wars phantommenace.
Um, there's a point where, likelittle baby Anakin, but what
are midichlorians, what aremidichlorians?
And you're like, it's likethere's flashing, this is
(56:29):
exposition.
And it's like George Lucasdidn't know that that's what he
was doing.
Yeah, he didn't.
Speaker 1 (56:34):
Carpenter knew, carpenter knew.
Lucas didn't know.
Carpenter knew, yeah, carpenterknew yeah.
Speaker 2 (56:40):
Carpenter knew yeah, yeah, and was fine with it
Totally, because it was justlike that's not why you're here,
that's what he was making.
Speaker 1 (56:46):
Yeah, and you know, the fight scenes are like fun
and well choreographed and liketotally not believable, like
these dudes are wearing freakinguniforms.
Speaker 2 (57:01):
Because we need to.
Who's on which side?
Who's the good guy, who's thebad guy?
Yeah, well, and that's.
Um, that's one of the thingslike well, it's, I mean, it's
camp, but like this is.
We're, you and I were textingback and forth a little bit
about william goldman because,um, I found out that he, uh, was
an overland graduate like whichI didn't know, like you and so
like we were talking about likeit was kind of insane how his
career was, how how it went, andyou know, man, it was.
(57:24):
It was good to be a rich whitedude in the 50s yeah, totally.
But I was saying one of thewhat he taught me was like know
what you can do and know whatyou can't do, and like just
gloss over the stuff you can'tdo.
Yeah, right around the stuff youcan't do, yeah yeah, because
that's, that's what he did withprincess bride, like he's like I
can't write a realistic lovestory, so I'm not gonna write a
realistic love story, I'm gonnaskip over it with this amazing
(57:45):
framing device.
That is hilarious, right, right.
So, um, I'm thinking of that inthat, like this movie put its
emphasis on like the fun, thechoreographed fight scenes, the
like the things that Carpenterknew he could do, right, and was
like we're just gonna just goahead, have the exposition, here
(58:07):
you go.
It's on a spoon, whereas GeorgeLucas Phantom Menace.
The race scene is pure cinemagold.
It's amazing.
It is a very, very good scene.
That got my heart beatingfaster when I saw it.
The rest of the movie is trashTell us how you really feel Em.
(58:30):
It's not so much that the restof the movie is trash, it's that
I think George Lucas, he was sosuccessful that he forgot that
he's not good at some stuff.
Yeah and so, and like it'salways focus on like lean into
what's not good at some stuff.
Yeah and so, and like it'salways focus on like lean into
what you're good at, elide overthe stuff you're not good at,
bring in others to help you withthe stuff you're not good at,
and like, uh, you know, don'thave an entire scene where
(58:52):
someone asks what midichloriansare.
Don't even do midichloriansJust have the force not be
explained.
It's better that way.
Speaker 1 (59:03):
All right.
Well, that was a digression.
Who me, I never have tangents,so let me see if I can reflect
back some of the things that wetalked about.
Speaker 2 (59:16):
All right.
Speaker 1 (59:20):
Honestly, actually, even though we've been talking
for an hour, it's not much like.
When it really comes down to it, it's not that much.
So big trouble in little chinais this hilarious, over-the-top,
campy film, which is like inmany ways, a parody of sort of
Orientalist um action moviesright, kung Fu movies.
(59:41):
It's a.
It's a.
It is a parody of sort of KungFu movies that have magic in
them and it does not take itselfseriously at all, which is part
of its delight.
And, and in so far as nottaking itself seriously, like
(01:00:01):
Jack Burton, kurt Russell'scharacter takes himself very
seriously, but the film does nottake him seriously, the
(01:00:26):
straight white cis dude herothat we have been kind of
expected to identify with forforever, over and over and over
again.
Russell's jack burton is notthat guy.
Right, he knocks himself outduring the pinnacle fight scene.
He, he is like distracted andlike jumps to the rescue after
his, who he thinks of as thesidekick, but in fact is the
(01:00:50):
hero.
Wang has already disabled allof the bad guys he kills.
He does in fact kill the bigbad, but he does it wearing
lipstick accidentally, whichthen his would-be girlfriend
wipes off of his mouth with hersleeve afterward.
So, like Jack is not the hero,he is in many ways ridiculed and
(01:01:17):
is the butt of the joke overand, over and over again, which
is kind of delightful, and sothis film is, in that sense,
woke.
It also sees like crazy,stereotyped, like not based, I
don't think, in any kind ofactual cultural, cultural
reality, like Chinese charactersand caricatures, who
(01:01:43):
nevertheless, like Chineseculture, does not feel like it
is the butt of the joke and asfar as I can tell and I'm
willing, I'm completely willingto be corrected here, but as far
as I can tell, was largelyappreciated and embraced by
Chinese Americanscontemporaneously.
They felt in on the joke, right, because, again, like Chinese
(01:02:10):
actors were playing these partsthat were awesome and fun and
funny and really heroic.
Like Wang actually fits thestereotype of the hero, right,
he fights for what he believesin, he beats the bad guys
through sheer force of will andskill because he is a kung fu
master, apparently, he gets the,he saves the girl, he gets the
(01:02:32):
girl.
Like he, he ticks all the boxes.
Wang ticks all the boxes forthe hero of the story and that
is refreshing to have that asthe chinese american or chinese,
uh, what chinese american uhcharacter here, um, in terms of
gender it does pass bechdelbarely, still not a particularly
(01:02:54):
feminist film.
We do have gracie law, who'samazing.
She really is a bad-ass and, um, and we do have this sort of
subversion.
We it gives and takes.
On the one hand she relents andand like, despite all of the
magic, the thing about which shesays I can't believe this is
(01:03:15):
real is kissing Kurt Russell,but at the same time, when he's
like nah, she's like hi.
So you know there's a give andtake.
There's a give and take there.
Kim Cattrall really sells it.
She's delightful.
And even Margot, the kind ofnaive journalist who's like
(01:03:38):
trying to get her big break,she's, um, I don't feel as
though she is made fun of.
She's not a fully fleshed outcharacter, but neither does she
feel like, um, overly sexualizedor overly demeaned like she's.
Like she's not fully fleshed out, but none of of these guys are
right.
They're all caricatures to acertain extent, and hers is not
(01:04:01):
like an anti-feminist caricature.
Speaker 2 (01:04:04):
So there's that.
The lawyer's name is Gracie Law.
Speaker 1 (01:04:07):
Yeah.
So what am I forgetting that wetalked about?
We spent a lot of time talkingabout exposition and sort of not
taking yourself too seriously.
And you brought in Goldman andthe ways in which he taught us
to sort of like, do what you'regood at and like, don't try to
(01:04:32):
do the things you're not good at.
Find a way to work to writearound it.
So in the Princess Bride thatwas like the frame story that
says there's a romance butdoesn't actually show the
romance.
And you pointed out that, likeGeorge Lucas forgot that and
gave us like ponderousexposition with them.
But what are midi-chlorians?
And we also spent some timetalking about sort of layers of
(01:04:57):
nuance in terms of, like,portraying racism versus being
racist.
And so you brought in oh,brother, we're out.
Art thou versus um the um,family guy, family guy thank you
versus family guy.
Speaker 2 (01:05:12):
Uh, I also named the fact that there's a, an element
of parody in this film that theaudience would have brought some
knowledge with them into thetheater in 1986, which, to a
certain extent, is missing inwatching it in 2024 and that
sort of affects the way we viewthis like woke or problematic
(01:05:32):
question and the camp and thedepiction of chinese culture do
you know that, um, that gets tosomething that, uh, I feel like
with with my students I wastrying to teach them because we
often, um do this context is soimportant in understanding like
anything but piece of media,like a response to something,
(01:05:55):
and so, and for a long time, andlike we were kind of raised
with this, there was this ideathat decontextualizing things is
how you get to be not racist,right, so, like by saying, like
well, you couldn't do this aboutyou know a different
demographic.
Like well, that's not about adifferent demographic.
There's a reason we're doing itabout this demographic, you
(01:06:16):
know that sort of thing,demographic, you know that sort
of thing.
So, so that gets into it too isthe context of what Kung Fu
movies were that we have lostthat context.
So a you know, young Gen Z arewatching this movie for the
first time might be horrified inways that their parents
wouldn't have been when they sawit in the theater, because they
(01:06:37):
just aren't aware of the moviesthat came before.
Speaker 1 (01:06:42):
Yeah, I just want to reiterate like this movie is so
weird, but like really, reallyfun, really fun.
And so I think, as with all ofour films, all of our films, if
we are willing to talk about it,it's absolutely worth a rewatch
.
Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
So any final thoughts ?
Uh, so the reason I rememberedthe green eyes is because you
and I both have green eyes.
Yeah, that's stuck in my head.
So I do not.
We, neither of us, have thelike emerald green eyes that are
clearly contact lenses.
Speaker 1 (01:07:23):
In fact, in the credits I noticed there's like a
contact lenses by Dr So-and-soyeah, yeah, no Much more olive
green, anyway, yes, Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:07:33):
So next time?
Yeah, what's next time?
I am bringing you my deepthoughts on Alien.
Speaker 1 (01:07:40):
Oh, we have been talking about Alien for episodes
after episode after episode.
Speaker 2 (01:07:44):
So excited about this .
Speaker 1 (01:07:46):
Cool beans.
I can't wait, all right.
Well, until then.
Until then, do you likestickers?
Sure, we all do.
If you head over toguygirlsmediacom, slash, sign up
and share your address with us,we'll send you a sticker.
It really is that easy.
But don't wait, there's alimited quantity.
Thanks for listening.
(01:08:08):
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
If I made a nightclub based on He-Man, it would look
like this.
It would look like this sceneLike there's this big skull at
the top but everything is linedin neon what others might deem
stupid shit.
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
We're sisters, tracy and Emily,collectively known as the Guy
(00:22):
Girls.
Every week, we take turnsre-watching, researching and
reconsidering beloved media andsharing what we learn.
Come overthink with us and ifyou get value from the show,
please consider supporting us.
You can become a patron onPatreon or send us a one-time
tip through Ko-fi Both links arein the show notes and thanks
(00:45):
tip through Ko-fi.
Both links are in the shownotes.
And thanks.
I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts About
Stupid Shit, because popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't?
You know what's in your head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1986 film Big Trouble inLittle China with my sister,
emily Guy-Burken, and with you,let's dive in my sister, emily
(01:08):
Guy-Burken, and with you, let'sdive in Em.
I know you saw this becausethis is one of the ones that I
think we watched, like with ourcousin.
But what do you remember aboutBig Trouble in Little China.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Very little.
I remember that it hinged on awoman with green eyes yep I
remember that kurt russell was auh truck driver.
Yep, I remember, like crazyfight scenes, yep, and I think I
think his name is james wongjames hong so um.
(01:47):
He is in everything, everywhere,all at once yeah, that's
grandpa yeah so, and I like he'ssomeone who is like just kind
of a character actor that I,every time I see him, I'm like
that guy.
So that is about the extent ofit.
Oh, and Kim Cattrall, pre-sexand the City, uh-huh.
(02:11):
So that's the extent of it.
That's what I remember.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Well, I mean, that's kind of a lot, honestly,
honestly.
So tell me, why are we talkingabout it today?
Yeah, so we're talking aboutthis because of Alison, hi,
alison.
Alison is one of my bestfriends and, uh, a listener and
a patron, and this is one of herfavorite movies, and so it got
(02:40):
on the list as a result of herbeing like you guys should do
Make Trouble in Little China,and it is one that I definitely
remember watching at Grandma'shouse with Chris.
And so here we are, you'rewelcome.
So there's a lot to talk aboutin this film this is a John
(03:02):
Carpenter film about in thisfilm, this, uh, so this is a
john carpenter film and, um,it's, it's the camp is like
dialed up to 11 and it's reallyinteresting like watching it.
I think there's a lot of like,like talk on the interwebs about
this film, which was not verysuccessful in the box office but
has become sort of a cultclassic, uh, and it like a lot
(03:25):
of people are like woke orproblematic, like as if those
are the only two choices, likethat's kind of the conversation
that happens about this film,and, um, I think the answer is
neither.
Well, it is problematic, butnot, I think in the ways that
like not quite in the ways thatI think people like at first
glance claim that it is, uh,from so many you know, like
(03:49):
white guys surrounded by Asiandudes kind of a film, right,
like really lampoons, that italso like dials up the
(04:12):
Orientalism and exoticization ofChinese culture to such a
degree that it is camp andtherefore is also making fun of
Orientalism and, uh, you know,the exoticization of Chinese
culture.
And ultimately, the point thatI want to make is that, like
(04:35):
Russell's character Jack Burtonis his name thinks that he is
the hero of this story, but he'sactually the sidekick, and the
movie makes that plain over andover and over again that Jack
Burton is actually the sidekickto Dennis Dunn's Wenqi.
So that's kind of like whereI'm going to land.
There are a couple of otherthings to talk about which I
(04:59):
think is really significant in1986 and why I say this film is
maybe.
Maybe, instead of sayingneither, I should say it's both
woke and problematic.
So let me do my best.
Synopsis.
I have Wikipedia because thisfilm is insane.
I mean, I absolutely.
(05:21):
Remember thinking that as a kid,like as a kid, I remember
thinking it as a kid, like as akid, I remember thinking it was
insane I re-watched, so Iwatched it and my spouse watched
it with me and, like, at acertain point I like paused it
and I was like we're only 25minutes in so much happened,
(05:42):
gosh yeah, so I think if Iactually gave the full
play-by-play, this would be likea two-hour episode.
So I will not do that, um, butI'm actually going to.
I have the wikipedia synopsisup on my screen and I'll I'll do
.
I'll maybe give a little bit ofcolor commentary on that, but
I'm trying to stick to it, justso that we can wrap this up in a
(06:03):
reasonable amount of time.
So we open um, there's like aframe story where a sort of
skeptical white police officer,maybe, but like in plain clothes
, is interviewing, um, a mannamed egg shen who is played by
(06:26):
victor wong, who's also like afairly well-known chinese
character actor.
So, um, this, this whitedetective is interviewing egg
shen and is saying, like, what,what, what's your version of the
story?
And Egg Shen says do you mean?
What's the truth?
And like, and what does JackBurton have to do with it?
(06:50):
And Egg Shen's like you need toleave him alone.
He's a good guy, he showed alot of courage, he did his best
for us.
And then the detective is, like, do you really believe in this
magic and stuff?
And Egg Shen's like I mean, ofcourse, because it's real.
And then he like does a thingwith his hands where like little
(07:12):
lightning bolts go between hishands to like prove that sorcery
is real.
Oh, and they mentioned like awhole city block being engulfed
in green flame and that Jack hadsomething to do with it.
So that's sort of the frame,like the setup.
Then we actually meet JackBurton.
(07:33):
He's in his truck, it's atnight, he's wearing sunglasses
and talking into the CB radiolike just like I don't know,
like John waning it abouthimself.
It's really obnoxious.
But then he ends up at um.
He ends up in Chinatown.
He's delivering that.
His truck is called the porkchop express, so he's like
delivering pigs, I guess I don'tknow Um, but he an 18 wheeler.
(07:56):
He's delivering uh intoChinatown.
It's raining, he's.
He ends up playing some sort ofgambling game that looks vaguely
like dominoes, but I didn'tunderstand.
It was not a game that I wasfamiliar with, like so anyway.
But he's playing a domino, somesort of like dominoes, like
gambling game with a bunch he'slike the only white dude a bunch
of chinese uh folks, uh sittingaround the table playing um and
(08:18):
he wins, and wang chi played bydenn Dunn um as like kind of
out, like put out by the factthat Jack has one um, and says
double or nothing, uh, for, likethe.
The bet is that Wang can, uh,slice a glass bottle in half
(08:39):
with a machete.
Or slice it with a machete, um,like on the table, or slice it
with a machete, um, like on thetable.
And um, they do thisspecifically to establish that
Jack has great reflexes, becauseWang does it and his mind and
body, uh, or spirit and body,are not aligned, and so he
doesn't actually slice thebottle, it like it doesn't crack
either, it just like slidesacross the table really, really
(09:00):
quickly and Jack catches it.
So now we've established Jackhas great reflexes.
That's an important point.
Okay, so Wang can't pay upright now.
He needs to go to the airportto pick up his fiance.
He's been saving up to bringher over from, they say, peking,
and Jack's like I'll take you,because he wants to get paid.
(09:24):
So they get to the airport,they're waiting for the fiance,
whose name is Mao Yin.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
So in the semi he takes him.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Yeah, it doesn't have a trailer.
Oh, okay, just the cab, the cab, okay yeah, okay yeah.
So they're at the airport,they're waiting for Mao Yin and
they see a white woman, kimCattrall, whose name is Gracie
Law.
And Jack sees her and instantlyis like who is that?
(09:56):
And of course Wang knows her.
He says she's trouble, stayaway from her.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
She's a lawyer and her name is Gracie Law.
Gracie Law.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Okay, so there's a group of like five guys who are
dressed really tough and when Isay tough I mean like the Sharks
and the Jets, tough, but likeChinese guys, but like dress
like the sharks and the jetsfrom um West side story, like
tough and like mean mugging, youknow.
Anyway, gracie says she nameswhat a gang, that they are from
(10:39):
Chinatown and they're bad news,and I don't remember the name of
the gang, but um, so they're.
They're actually Gracie's thereto meet a young Chinese woman
named Tara, and the gang isthere to like kidnap her or
something.
So Gracie manages to save Tara,but then Mal Yen gets abducted,
(11:00):
abducted, the fiance.
So, uh, wang and Jack are likegoing after the gang who have
Mao Yin.
Um, they're in the parkinggarage, like whatever the guys
almost the bad guys almost runthem down in this like sports
(11:21):
car that they're driving Likecause they are standing like in
the roadway to try and stop themand they just they don't even
slow down.
So Jack does end up sort ofpulling Wang out of the way.
Um, so they go back to Wang'srestaurant where he works with
his uncle and they're talkingabout the fact that these guys
have Mao Yin and Wang convincesJack to like help him, try and
(11:43):
get her back to.
So they go into, they're drivingthrough Chinatown and they're
being chased and like Wang'slike turn right now.
It's like very exciting.
And they end up in this backalley and then they see like a
funeral and it's these guys andthey're all wearing like the
same kind of clothes.
And Wang's like no, these arethis guy.
And he names another gang andhe's like they're the good guys,
(12:05):
it's a funeral, this guy diedand so they're just sitting
there in this like cab of thissemi like watching this funeral
with like drums and like bannersand stuff.
The funeral's like right comingright down the middle of the
alley.
So they're just like they can'tgo anywhere.
They're just watching thishappen.
Then Jack notices in the rearview, in the side mirrors, like
(12:26):
mean looking dudes in like blackand red I don't even know what
to call them Like uniforms isthe word that's coming to mind
Like karate uniforms kind of athing, like I don't know what
they actually are.
And Jack's like Wang who arethese guys?
And it's like some other gangand they're not good guys and
like this huge fight.
(12:47):
And then a third gang shows up,this huge fight with like, lots
of guns and like.
And here's the start of jackbeing um kind of undercut as the
hero.
He pulls this big knife out ofhis boot and he's like holding
it, like tough guy right, andthen these guys, they're like
doing kung fu and then they pullout guns, and there's guns
(13:10):
everywhere and he's sitting.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
He's sitting there in his truck holding this knife
right, which is a literal knifeto a gunfight to a gunfight.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
And then these dudes show up wearing these giant, the
three dudes, wearing thesegiant baskets as hats that they
come out of the sky.
I remember the hats.
I remember that, yes, like chinstraps, yeah, and they start
like shooting lightning boltsout of their hands and Jack is
like what is happening?
(13:44):
And Wang's like drive, justdrive, drive.
And then that's when the guythat you remember, lopan, james
Hong's character, like stands infront of the truck and Wang's
like just drive, just drive.
And like Jack drives throughhim, he like kind of goes under,
but it's like not whatever, andlike jack freaks the heck out,
(14:08):
like what just happened?
Who is that guy?
So they, they abandon the truck, they go back to the restaurant
.
Next thing we see jack is onthe phone with his insurance
company trying to like reportthe truck as destroyed, lost,
whatever, uh, and it's not goingvery well.
Meanwhile we're getting a lotof exposition about who these
(14:29):
guys are and the James Hong'scharacter, lopan, cleverly
disguised as David Lopan, is,like you know, businessman
facade.
He is a ghost, effectively'slike a thousand years old, he's
been cursed, so he doesn't haveflesh, uh, and okay, okay, I
(14:55):
don't, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
However, that works however, that works.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
So we meet a couple other folks who, like no Wang,
who are uh, you know, work inthe restaurant or are relatives
or whatever.
Egg Shen shows up.
He's the guy from the verybeginning.
He drives a bus for tourists,called like the Egg Fu Young
Tourist, something or other, andhe's like reading oracles and
he's like it's time we canactually take Lopan down now.
(15:22):
It's time we can actually takeLopan down now.
So Gracie comes, she shows upand she's like I know where Mao
Yin is and I can't go becausethey know who I am, so I can't
go.
So we need somebody who they'venever met.
So Kurt Russell's Jack is goingto go to try and rescue Mao Yin,
(15:42):
to try and rescue Mao Yin.
Mao Yin is special because shehas green eyes.
So they go to this whorehouse,basically, um, and we see Kurt
Russell in this like Clark Kentkind of a disguise, like with
glasses and his hair all slickeddown and like just in from Iowa
city, whatever, I don't evenremember, but it's so and he
(16:05):
goes into this place and he endsup in a back room with a girl
and he's kind of chatting withher and like trying to subtly
figure out where this where MaoYin might be.
He's not being as subtle as hethinks.
We see the madam kind of go tocheck on Malian, who is like in
this secret room and like tiedto a bed.
(16:27):
It's kind of gross.
Then the um lightning boltdudes with the basket hats show
up, destroy the whole buildingin green flame, which we heard
from the very beginning framestory, um, and take Malian uh up
and out and take Maoyan up andout.
(16:54):
So okay, wang is still, he'sgoing to save Maoyan, he's going
to save her.
He'll go by himself if he hasto.
He can't not.
And so Jack goes with him andthey go to infiltrate Lopin's
palace.
I don't know what to call it.
It's like a front, because he'smeant to be like a businessman.
David Lopin is a businessman inSan Francisco.
(17:15):
It's like the headquarters, soit's like a, like an office
building, but also where helives, but also like a palace,
it's anyway Um.
And so they go in, likeclaiming to be like workers for
the telephone company, but Ilike sort of like breeze through
(17:35):
and it's too easy.
And it is too easy Like Lopinknows.
They're there and it's like atrap, um, and we meet, we, they
go down and down and there areall these like Warren's
underneath Chinatown and there'slike just craziness, like magic
(17:56):
and monsters and insanity.
We meet David Lopin.
So he, when he has flesh and Idon't understand the magic of
this, so don't ask, cause Idon't get it when he has flesh
he's this ancient man in awheelchair, like a motorized
(18:17):
wheelchair, with like wispy,like he's meant to be, like Fu
Manchu, like with this, likewispy facial hair and head hair
and all these liver spots.
He looks to be 120 years old.
He knows who they are and hecalls them by name and we get a
little bit more exposition.
Lo Pan has been cursed athousand years ago.
(18:39):
In order to break the curse, heneeds to marry a green-eyed
woman and then he needs to killher.
So the marriage is for the Godwho cursed him and the death or
the sacrifice of the wife is forthe emperor, or vice versa.
I might have it backward.
(18:59):
So hijinks ensue.
Wang is a master fighter, jackis not.
Like jack manages, they're inum, they get.
They get like bound intowheelchairs.
(19:22):
Wang and Jack do, and Jack endsup like rolling backward down
this really steep slope in thewheelchair and inadvertently
knocking two bad guys down justbecause he's like falling and
then like almost falls in a pitand like that we do see his
strength, like he saves himself.
Um, anyway, they managed toescape and get back to the
(19:48):
restaurant and now they knowwhat's happening with the
marriage and stuff and it turnsout like Egg Shen is also like a
sorcerer and like his missionis to fight Lopan so cool.
So he gathers a small gang orcalls them, I'm not sure it
(20:09):
convenes them and wang and jackand egg lead this small band of
guys to go rescue mal yin andkill lopin and instead of going
in the front door as they didlast time, egg leads them via
the warrens of like caves andshit underneath of chinatown,
(20:30):
like to the palace, slashmansion, slash business hq.
So that's how they get in thistime again, again, lots of magic
.
They drink a potion that almostseems to be liquid luck from
Harry Potter.
(20:51):
They all just feel really goodand whatever.
And they end up in uh, there'slike a dungeon jail, like with
cells, and there's a bunch ofwomen in um cells down there,
including gracie and grace'sfriend, margo, played by kate
(21:13):
burton, who is a journalist whogracie brought in to try and
like expose lopin.
I'm not sure gracie realized hewas uh otherworldly.
I think she just thought he waslike a, you know well, he human
trafficking or something.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Yeah, yeah, I mean just considering like she knew
where malian was.
Yeah, no, I mean exactly in theworld.
That's not a john carpentermovie.
That makes sense.
It's an understandable thing todo exactly so mar.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
So Margo is.
So Margo and Gracie have bothbeen taken cap, Like it.
It made sense that how they gotin there, but they've both been
taken captive.
They actually like tried to getin again through the front door
, but they've been taken captivethere and in there.
So they managed to release allthe women and like Jack is like
leading them out and he's like,okay, let's go.
And he gets to this door and heopens the door and there's like
(22:07):
a whole gang of bad guys on theother side.
So again undercutting hisefficacy as a hero.
So he tells them to all run andhide because the bad guys have
only seen him.
And then but Wang stays behindand fights with him, but like
fights alongside him and theyfight the guys and like again,
(22:28):
like jack ends up the gun he haslike jams and then like he
pulls his knife out of his bootand it like goes skittering and
so he goes after it and by thetime he comes back like jumps
out from behind, like a thinglike ha, I'm ready.
Like wang has completely, youknow, uh, disabled all of the
bad guys.
So like again, you know,undercuts the sort of heroics of
(22:53):
of our hero, Okay.
So they're on their way out,they're like escaping and they
actually.
Jack says I'm going to take upthe lead, you take up the rear.
Gracie, they don't have Malian.
(23:14):
She was in another part of thebecause she's going to marry.
He needs her to.
Lopin needs her to marry him.
So he's got her in this weirdtrance where she's like
levitating and like trance-likeand whatever.
So we've, we've seen him kindof talk to her, uh, in her
unconscious state, in hisfleshless state, where he is
(23:36):
younger, uh and can't actuallytouch her.
So she's not with them.
But they escape, excepteverybody gets out, except
Gracie who gets grabbed by thislike Chewbacca looking thing,
but like much, much scarier.
So they're in Egg's bus andthey escape and they and then
(24:04):
they realize Gracie's not withthem and Malian's not there
either.
So they have to go back againto try and stop the wedding.
I'm probably messing this upy'all, but it doesn't matter, it
really doesn't.
I don't think it matters.
It honestly doesn't matter.
I think it might be now thatthey actually take the liquid
(24:25):
luck.
I no-transcript, but everythingis lined in neon.
(24:49):
And then there's this likeescalator that comes down from
the mouth of the skull.
So Lopin like glides down fromthe mouth of the skull, from
like the mezzanine, andeverything's lined in neon.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
This is where I want to spend my New Year's Sounds
amazing.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
We learn that Lopin has decided to marry both of the
women because Gracie also hasgreen eyes.
So he's going to marry both ofthem.
He's going to keep Mao Yin ashis wife and kill Gracie so that
he can have his cake and eat ittoo.
So, um, both of the women arein this sort of again
(25:33):
trance-like state Now.
They're all dressed up in likevery fancy Chinese clothes, with
makeup and headdresses andeverything, and their eyes are
rolled back in their head.
So I guess the green eyes don'tmatter for the actual ceremony
because they just, they're justwhite.
So the ceremony, so, so, so Jackand egg and Wang and the dudes
(25:55):
are all like watching this fromthe floor, like presumably um,
unobserved by low pan and andhis guys and Wang's like we got
to stop it.
And Egg says no, we have to letthe ceremony happen, because we
can't kill Lopan until he'smarried, but then he becomes
flesh and we can kill him.
So we watch the wedding, whichis so weird.
(26:19):
Lopan says bring me the needleof love, and it's just like
really long, like, like, like,imagine, like knitting needle,
(26:40):
like silver knitting needle,which he then like presses into
um malian's wrist and uh, as asit's, and then he like, just
like a little bit, but then helike reaches into his own like
you know big oversized sleeveand and pulls it out and he has
(27:00):
blood on his fingers.
So he's really excited aboutthat, like it's working, it's
working, so, it's working, so,but apparently he needs to like
push this needle of love intoboth of her wrists or something
I don't, I don't know, I don'tknow.
I also don't know how he'sholding the needle of love,
because we've established thathe can't actually touch things
before.
Like he walks through walls andlike his hands pass through
(27:23):
Maoyin.
So I don't know, I don't know,I believe.
So the guys come in and theydecide okay, now it's time.
Like the egg sees that or no,sorry, they actually are seen by
it doesn't matter a magicalcreature.
So they've been seen, they'vebeen spotted, and so the fight
(27:43):
ensues Again.
Our savior hero like knockshimself out.
He shoots into the air like acool, you know hero which
dislodges a big chunk of likeconcrete or plaster or whatever
that falls out, hits him rightin the head and knocks him out.
So he is unconscious throughmost of the fight, while these
(28:06):
dudes are like going at it inthis like big choreographed Kung
Fu like lots and lots ofcombatants.
It's like awesome.
And he's like knocked out onthe floor.
Gracie wakes up from her tranceand sort of like, ends up like
kind of falling off the platformat the top where the skull is.
And and then Jack wakes up, hegoes looking for her.
(28:33):
He finds her and they're likekind of like escaping and they
end up in this like I don't knowelevator, and there's like this
sexual tension between him,between them, which, by the way,
earlier he made passes at herand she was like uh, no.
But now in this like shareddanger, like she's kind of
feeling it.
They end up like she actuallyis like I can't believe this is
(28:55):
real, like that's what she says,like I can't believe this is
real about they're smooching.
She's got all of this makeup onbecause of the wedding thing.
So he ends up with red, redlipstick.
I remember that, I rememberthat.
So when they actually confrontlopin, he's got this like red,
red lipstick on and so he hasthat knife that we've seen
(29:18):
before.
Um and uh, he's like he'sthat's his, his, his weapon, and
lopin, like magically, sort ofclaims it, like pulls it to
himself and he's like he'sthat's his, his, his weapon, and
lopin like magically sort ofclaims it like, pulls it to
himself and he's like nice knife, goodbye, mr burton.
And he throws it at him.
But we've seen jack has greatreflexes, he catches it and
throws it back immediately andit lands like right in um
(29:39):
lopin's skull, like, between youknow, forehead.
So jack actually does in factkill Lopin.
Hooray, he's reunited withGracie, like she's been sort of
like hiding or shielding herself, like not in a cowardly way, um
in a smart way.
She comes back and like thefirst thing she does is like
wipe the lipstick off of hismouth, which feels significant.
(30:03):
Um, so the, the, the dudes in inthe basket hats are like really
, uh, upset by their master'sdeath.
So the one dude who we we'veseen, you know, fighting before,
like he starts to like we'veseen him kind of like bulk up
(30:25):
out of sheer force of will,almost like the incredible hulk.
This time it kind of gets outof control and he like just
starts expanding and just getsfatter and fatter and fatter,
with like steam coming out ofhis nostrils until he literally
explodes.
They're running, they like findtheir people, they all get out.
It's amazing, they made it out.
(30:45):
So hooray, and they killedLopan and the other guys are
dead and it's awesome.
So we're back at the restaurantand we see, like Margo and one
of the guys have coupled up andlike Wang and Mao Yin are like
coupled up and smoochy, smoochy,and Gracie's back in her own
(31:09):
clothes with her normal makeupon and, um, jack is like I guess
it's time for me to hit theroad, like it's like a total
John Wayne kind of animpersonation, and she's
Gracie's like I don't rememberexactly how it goes, but she
says something like is it maybeyou could buy a new truck that
(31:32):
has room for two?
And he's like no, I don't thinkso.
And she's like okay, and thenhe's like leaving and Margo's
like you aren't even gonna giveher a kiss or goodbye, and he
looks at her and he goes nope,and he leaves.
And then we get.
Now we're back from thebeginning, where he's on the cb
(31:54):
in the dark, in the rain,wearing sunglasses, talking
about how I don't even rememberthere was a phrase that probably
is important where he's talkingabout like you know what, what
Jack says, what old Jack says,and I don't remember what Jack
says, but he's like being likeJohn Wayne on the CB and we like
zoom out and the scaryChewbacca climbs up from sort of
(32:15):
the undercarriage of the semi.
Oh, he found the semi it was in.
It was parked in David Lopan.
That's part of how they escaped.
It's like they all climb intothe, into the truck and they and
he just busts through the thewall.
So it's more there's.
I I'm sure I got it all out oforder, but, like y'all, it
(32:36):
doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter.
Like it's fighting and it'smagic and kurt russell's jack
looks ridiculous.
That's pretty much how it goes,so I'll just get this out of
the way.
It actually does pass bechtel,because margo and, uh, gracie
(32:58):
talk about things besides men.
That it's not particularlyfeminist.
As I said before I started thesynopsis, I think like the real
crux of like the question with2024 eyes that that commentators
seem to have is like is it wokeor is it problematic?
And so, straight watching it,I'm like, as I was watching it,
(33:24):
I was like, straight watching it, I'm like, as I was watching it
, I was like, I mean, there's alot of Chinese actors in here,
but is any of this at all Likeeven a seed of truth of Chinese
culture?
Like it just feels so whitepeople vision of Chinese culture
and so I think that's why folksare like problematic right,
(33:52):
like it wouldn't be me today,because it is not the way that
we do things today, for goodreason.
At the same time, as far as Ican tell, with one exception.
Same time, as far as I can tell, with one exception chinese
americans really loved thismovie when it came out I don't
(34:13):
mean one, one person, I meanlike one group, one group um so
contemporaneously, like it was.
It was fun and it was funny andthe, as I say, wang is the hero
.
He is, no question, the guy whoactually saves the girl, gets
the girl, wins the fights.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
He is not a sidekick.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
And I think that was fairly rare, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Well, and at the same time, like poking fun at Kurt
Russell, who, who was, I feel,like a reasonably big name in
the 80s, like it's hard to I Idon't really know when he was
like snake plissken and and likeyou know other things where he
was.
Kurt russell, capital k,capital r yeah I don't know if
he was.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
I don't know if he was yet in 86, but he was
certainly on his way yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
So it would be kind of like I don't know if, like
keanu reeves, had a similar kindof role yeah or or um you know,
uh bruce willis said in his, inhis prime it like one
commentator sort of said he'slike han, solo except
ineffective yeah, yeah, so hethinks he's Han Solo exactly he
(35:25):
thinks he's Han Solo yeah, yeahand but the movie doesn't.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
The movie does not think he's Han Solo, and I mean
it.
The movie likes him, like weare meant to feel affectionately
toward him have you seen umMitchell's versus the machines?
I have uh-huh.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
so you remember the dog, manchi, who can't see, yeah
and like and the and.
So when they the, at the veryend the dog is the one who is
able.
I have Right, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
Yeah, and the fact that the camp was dialed up to
11-2, it's kind of like theHebrew hammer or something,
right, like a lot of Jews likethat stuff.
It's like that stuff yeah, likereally funny.
Yeah, so it doesn't feel like a, it doesn't feel like like the
Hebrew hammer, doesn't feel likeJews are the butt of the joke.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Yes, because we're in on it, yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
I think for most Chinese Americans, as far as I
can tell again, not ChineseAmerican, just in case that
wasn't clear to any listeners.
I am not Chinese American, justin case that wasn't clear to
any listeners.
I am not, but from what I'mseeing from sort of
contemporaneous andretrospective views like that
was the way it was received.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
So this gets to something that I have been
thinking about quite a bit.
So when I was teaching highschool, I taught the Odyssey
every year and I showed ohBrother when Art Thou.
I taught the Odyssey every yearand I showed oh Brother when
Art Thou and I, my first year ofteaching, I ended up showing it
on a day that I had a sub showit to me and I came back the
next day and the kids were likewhy'd you show us that racist
(37:17):
movie?
And I was like I'm sorry, whatnow?
And they're like well, there'sthe KKK in it.
And they were going to, youknow, they were going to lynch
you know this black guy.
And and I realized now theseare 14 year olds and this is
also it's nearly 20 years ago,this was 2006 or so, and so like
(37:37):
I think that we talk aboutthings differently with with
kids now than than we did thenand particularly in that, than
we did then and particularly inthat where I was teaching, but
so the kids were not able todistinguish between a portrayal
of racism and a movie beingracist, and so and I've realized
(37:57):
that that is it's not confinedto 14 year olds.
You know, now with the 14 yearolds I was like, oh, oh, I see
what's going on here.
Ok, we're going to talk aboutthis.
But I also see it from adultssometimes where, like this is
racist, and then it's nuancedlike that.
That issue is nuanced by thefact that there are some
(38:21):
portrayals of racism where andI'm thinking specifically of the
show family guy I actuallyreally liked family guy when it
was first out, and then therewas a point where I was like I
can't do this anymore about theshow and one of the things was
seth seth mcfarland, who thecreator of the show uh and
(38:42):
writer uh, was talking about howhis character, p Peter Griffith
, is racist and sexist and allof that.
And he said, yes, but we put putthose horrible things in his
mouth, cause look at the source,he's awful.
And it was very clear to me thatMcFarlane was having his cake
and eating it too, because hewas like yes, but you make it
(39:05):
funny where he doesn't feel likethe butt of the joke for having
that racist opinion and we'resupposed to extrapolate that
he's wrong and like sometimesyou show that he's wrong,
sometimes you have him take apratfall for being so awful, but
(39:27):
not always, and so so like thisis like I feel like this sits
very much in the center of that,like recognizing that, like we
need to talk about the fact thatyou can show awful things, even
in a comedic way, withoutcondoning the awful things, or
even by, like making it clear,so like, because that was the
(39:50):
thing I told the kids with abrother where art that was like
I get what you're saying andlike I should have talked about
it before you know, so you knewthat that was coming, um, but
recognize that the protagonistsare not doing that.
They see that it's wrong, theysee that it's awful and they do
what they can to save and I'veforgotten the character's name
(40:11):
but save, save the, the, the manwho's going to be lynched.
And we see that the, the KKKmembers, get their comeuppance
in a funny way.
So, like, take that as likethey're the butt of the joke.
The racism is the butt of thejoke, as compared to Peter
Griffin saying somethinghorribly sexist or horribly
(40:36):
racist, and it just that beingthe joke, it just sits there.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Yeah, I think the other layer is parody, right
like lopin is very much, veryclearly sort of the fu manchu
character who had been likewhat's the word I'm looking for?
Like, like this, this is acaricature, it's a, it's a, it's
a parody of a lot of the sortof Orientalist movies that would
(41:07):
put the John Wayne-likecharacter as the savior, as the
hero against the sort of exoticand mysterious Chinese magic
James Bond film you Only LiveTwice, where Sean Connery is in
yellowface and is able toinfiltrate a Japanese big, bad
(41:34):
volcano lair.
I don't remember exactly Ihaven't seen that one, but yeah,
so I think that that's also apiece of it that isn't in the
examples that you gave but alsois added to.
So there's a little bit of likewinking at the audience, that
(41:55):
like airplane where the audiencecomes in with some things that
then are being lampooned, thatwe brought in with us, which now
in 2024 is less obvious, but in86 would have been very obvious
yes, you know the other aspectof it.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
I think that is interesting because john
carpenter did.
He did he write the film, or Imean um.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
It was directed by him.
I don't think he wrote so thescreen.
It was written by Gary Goldmanand David Weinstein, adapted by
WD Richter um and and directedby Carpenter carpenter.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Okay.
So, um, a couple of nice jewishboys wrote it, yep, um, which
is another that that honestlyputs another spin on it for for
me, in that two jewish men areused to seeing white culture
completely misunderstand theirown culture and exoticize it,
(43:06):
and so there's, there's, there'san aspect of that.
So what I the reason I broughtthat up is there is this sense
of and specifically I'm thinkingof Tina Fey, where there is for
lack of a better word a wokewhite creator who makes jokes
(43:30):
poking fun of racism or pokingfun of whatever system that they
have privilege from rock andthe star, and she has a lot of
jokes in there about race, about, you know, specifically, the
(43:51):
interaction between white folksand black folks, and she felt
very comfortable writing thosein a way that, in looking back,
I'm a little uncomfortable with,because she was a white woman,
is a white woman, and she didn'tnecessarily have a black
co-author.
So basically, what I'm sayingis you sometimes get creators
(44:15):
who are like the well-meaningwhite people, who are like I see
how stupid this is.
I'm going to make a parody of it, I'm in on it and I don't think
that there's there'snecessarily anything on it and I
don't think that there'snecessarily anything wrong with
that.
I don't think that that'snecessarily a bad thing.
I think where, like Tina Fey,makes me a little uncomfortable
in retrospect, at the time Ididn't see any problem with it.
(44:37):
I do want to make that clear.
But where that kind of gets usinto trouble is when you do that
without necessarily input frompeople from the marginalized
community who you're trying towink with, right, you know, yep,
and so now again, I am not inany way going to claim that
(45:02):
being Jewish is the same asbeing Chinese in terms of
exoticism of one's culture, butI feel like I am a little bit
relieved that it was two niceJewish boys and not someone
named Ed Whitbread.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
Yeah, I guess I don't know I mean.
So I am comforted by the numberof Chinese actors.
Absolutely, I am comforted bythe number of Chinese actors who
are, who have great roles, likereally great roles.
Yeah, I do wish there were aname with you know, some, a name
(45:50):
on the writing credits whoshare that identity.
That would be more comfortingand I know this.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
This has more to do with the lack of roles for
chinese actors, but this, whenyou think about it, you remember
it as oh, Kurt Russell versusyou know magic and so, and in
fact there's a there's a romancenovel by Jennifer Kruse called
(46:20):
Bet Me, where there's a pointwhere the character is looking
at the newspaper and there's arevival and it's like you're in
big trouble in Little China.
She's like oh, Kurt Russellfights the bad guys.
We can go see that.
I mean, that is, it's Hollywood.
Kurt Russell is a Hollywoodname.
Kim Cattrall came to be a verybig name.
Right, I know, Dennis Dunn didnot, Did not.
(46:42):
Now, James Hong Did I did.
He was the bad guy, but he wasthe bad guy and he also, like he
, I think I mean he was in hisfifties at the time Sounds right
Like he's not a young man andhe had a long career even before
this, if I recall.
(47:02):
So, like some of it is likejust, dude is, he's a working
actor and persistent and youknow, and he's very good.
He's a very good actor um, Iwonder.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
I saw in my research which was not extensive, folks,
I saw a rumor at least thatJackie Chan was actually
originally envisioned for theWang character and, for whatever
reason, was unavailable, and soDennis Dunn got it.
And Dennis Dunn does a greatjob.
I really don't want to sell himshort.
I believed him and I wonder ifjackie chan had been in this
(47:43):
movie, if we might not call itoh, jackie chan versus the bad
guys or jackie chan and kurtrussell versus the bad guys.
I wonder if a, anyway, the likecultural kind of capital that
(48:07):
Jackie Chan has would havecarried it differently, I wonder
.
So I mean, I'm not even surewhere I'm, where I'm going with
that, but it's I, it's somethingto note.
So I want to talk about onespecific moment to in terms of
the well, the overarching kindof subversion that Carpenter
(48:32):
brings to this and Carpenter andRussell apparently have both
spoken about this, like this wasintentional of the kind of
undercutting of the johnwayne-esque jack um, jack
russell, jack burton, the johnwayne-esque jack burton um, at
every turn, like just kind ofmaking him ridiculous.
(48:52):
Um, that's an overarching thing.
Like you know, he's, he'sknocked out, he's otherwise
occupied, but the moment withthe lipstick, that I think is
really interesting to note.
We expect him to get the girl.
We have been taught that he'sgoing to get the girl and to a
(49:14):
certain extent the movie givesus that Because Gracie is not
interested.
In the beginning she tells himhe smells bad.
She's like you wish no way,don't touch me, don't get near
me.
She is unequivocal, she's notinterested, and then she is.
So to a certain extent we'regiven what we're supposed to
(49:39):
expect kind of enemies to loverskind of a thing.
And then they have the smoochysmooch with the lipstick.
But when they're reunited afterhe does the thing and kills the
bad guy, he's infantilizedbecause she wipes his mouth
because he's got the lipstick onit, so she with her sleeve,
(50:01):
because he's got the lipstick onit, so she with her sleeve.
So like that particularsubversion I find really really
interesting when thinking aboutlike this subversion of the
hero's.
It's not just his sort ofefficacy as a hero, as like a
(50:25):
weapon, if you will, it's alsohis efficacy as a lover, in so
far as that moment, like aftertriumph, when we anticipate like
a big, like smooch which iseuphemism for more, he's
infantilized and like thatdelights me.
Speaker 2 (50:54):
Well, especially because.
So one of the things I'mthinking is so he's wearing
accidentally wearing lipstickwhen he kills the big bad, yeah,
and so there are ways one couldlook at that as like he's so
macho, it doesn't even matterthat he's wearing lipstick Right
, and so having her wipe it offmakes it clear no, that's not
(51:17):
what was going on.
Yeah, that's not what it wasgoing on.
Yeah, that's not what it was.
That was like he's, he's alittle boy with a dirty face.
Yeah, um, and yeah, that'sthere's.
There's something that isdelightful, that's um, and like
(51:38):
also the good sportness of kurtrussell yeah, he was in on it.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
The actor was in on it, yeah, and he played it.
He played it because I meanagain and again like there's a
slapstick element to it where hekeeps like getting knocked down
or falls over or whatever like.
So there is a definiteslapstick piece of his, of the
subversion of his heroism.
That's not the only way it'ssubverted, but that's a big
(52:08):
piece of it and I think in orderfor it to believe, be
believable, russell had to likereally oh sure, yeah, I felt it,
yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:20):
So I have a question about, like, when he leaves um
and uh, like gracie's, like youknow, could you get a cab that's
big enough for two?
He's like nah, you said that.
She said okay, is that?
Speaker 1 (52:36):
like paul's.
Uh portrayal of it is just likeall right that's fantastic.
She's not there's no, there isno wailing and gnashing of teeth
from her at all.
I was like this is an option,all right.
Yeah, fair enough, like margo'smore upset about leaving than
gracie is yeah, yeah like shekind of shrugs that.
Speaker 2 (53:01):
That is also fantastic.
Yeah, because the the heroleaving the woman at the end is
not on like not unusual right,um, but her not caring that's
phenomenal yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, so, yeah, yeah, so the.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
So I guess I'll just just again like this is just for
listeners to like sort of share.
Like this.
This movie is just bizarre andlike delights in its own
bizarreness, right, like theexposition is so obvious, right,
(53:44):
and and also so silly.
Like the, the it's magical, butlike the torture rooms are
described as like the hell ofboiling oil and the hell where
they whip your, rip your fleshoff, and the hell where like and
like, like these verydescriptive of like, like that
happens to you there and likethose.
(54:05):
These are different rooms inthe, like warrens of the, you
know underground, but butbeneath chinatown and sort of
you know how um, lopan likeoperates.
And like the, the magical,mythical creatures, like there's
one that's like a guardian, eggshen calls it, and it's this
like floating head with lots ofeyes, including one on its
tongue.
Like, like, imagine like a,like a fat gargoyle head that
(54:29):
floats and has these like weirdlittle tentacles, like shrek's,
like, what are those things?
That shrek has those littleantennae but each of them has an
eyeball.
So what he sees, lopin sees.
What this guardian sees, lopinsees, it's just, it's just
ridiculous.
Looking like like it reminds meof slimer from the ghostbusters
two years prior.
Like just floating around, um,it's just, and you know the, the
(54:52):
guys with the baskets on theirheads and the lightning bolts,
and like it's just silly and andand it knows it's silly and it
does it anyway.
Like so it's like telling us astory, but it's not taking
itself too seriously.
And like the exposition, like Isaid, like he has to do x and
such and because that's the way,and then if he gets married,
(55:13):
and it has to appease theemperor and has to appease the
guy, and like so we get theselong like monologues from one of
the other dudes who areexplaining to Jack what's
happening and thereby providingthe exposition for us.
And it's obvious what'shappening, it's like you don't
even care because it's just, andlike other things that are
(55:34):
exposition.
But like almost startling.
Like at one point somebody says, oh, you know so, and so has a
crush on Margo.
Almost startling, like at onepoint somebody says, oh, you
know so, and so has a crush onmargo.
Like he's the maitre d at the,at the restaurant, who I can't
remember his name at the moment,but he, like is a sidekick who
like goes through all the stuffwith them and like what, what?
why are you telling us that he'sgot a crush on margo?
It's like so that it makessense at the end when they're
(55:56):
coupled up.
But like yeah it's just, I mean, it's really like look, look
audience.
Speaker 2 (56:05):
So well, but like, but it knows it's doing that?
That does it totally knowsthere's, uh, in the um, the, the
very first star wars phantommenace.
Um, there's a point where, likelittle baby Anakin, but what
are midichlorians, what aremidichlorians?
And you're like, it's likethere's flashing, this is
(56:29):
exposition.
And it's like George Lucasdidn't know that that's what he
was doing.
Yeah, he didn't.
Speaker 1 (56:34):
Carpenter knew, carpenter knew.
Lucas didn't know.
Carpenter knew, yeah, carpenterknew yeah.
Speaker 2 (56:40):
Carpenter knew yeah, yeah, and was fine with it
Totally, because it was justlike that's not why you're here,
that's what he was making.
Speaker 1 (56:46):
Yeah, and you know, the fight scenes are like fun
and well choreographed and liketotally not believable, like
these dudes are wearing freakinguniforms.
Speaker 2 (57:01):
Because we need to.
Who's on which side?
Who's the good guy, who's thebad guy?
Yeah, well, and that's.
Um, that's one of the thingslike well, it's, I mean, it's
camp, but like this is.
We're, you and I were textingback and forth a little bit
about william goldman because,um, I found out that he, uh, was
an overland graduate like whichI didn't know, like you and so
like we were talking about likeit was kind of insane how his
career was, how how it went, andyou know, man, it was.
(57:24):
It was good to be a rich whitedude in the 50s yeah, totally.
But I was saying one of thewhat he taught me was like know
what you can do and know whatyou can't do, and like just
gloss over the stuff you can'tdo.
Yeah, right around the stuff youcan't do, yeah yeah, because
that's, that's what he did withprincess bride, like he's like I
can't write a realistic lovestory, so I'm not gonna write a
realistic love story, I'm gonnaskip over it with this amazing
(57:45):
framing device.
That is hilarious, right, right.
So, um, I'm thinking of that inthat, like this movie put its
emphasis on like the fun, thechoreographed fight scenes, the
like the things that Carpenterknew he could do, right, and was
like we're just gonna just goahead, have the exposition, here
(58:07):
you go.
It's on a spoon, whereas GeorgeLucas Phantom Menace.
The race scene is pure cinemagold.
It's amazing.
It is a very, very good scene.
That got my heart beatingfaster when I saw it.
The rest of the movie is trashTell us how you really feel Em.
(58:30):
It's not so much that the restof the movie is trash, it's that
I think George Lucas, he was sosuccessful that he forgot that
he's not good at some stuff.
Yeah and so, and like it'salways focus on like lean into
what's not good at some stuff.
Yeah and so, and like it'salways focus on like lean into
what you're good at, elide overthe stuff you're not good at,
bring in others to help you withthe stuff you're not good at,
and like, uh, you know, don'thave an entire scene where
(58:52):
someone asks what midichloriansare.
Don't even do midichloriansJust have the force not be
explained.
It's better that way.
Speaker 1 (59:03):
All right.
Well, that was a digression.
Who me, I never have tangents,so let me see if I can reflect
back some of the things that wetalked about.
Speaker 2 (59:16):
All right.
Speaker 1 (59:20):
Honestly, actually, even though we've been talking
for an hour, it's not much like.
When it really comes down to it, it's not that much.
So big trouble in little chinais this hilarious, over-the-top,
campy film, which is like inmany ways, a parody of sort of
Orientalist um action moviesright, kung Fu movies.
(59:41):
It's a.
It's a.
It is a parody of sort of KungFu movies that have magic in
them and it does not take itselfseriously at all, which is part
of its delight.
And, and in so far as nottaking itself seriously, like
(01:00:01):
Jack Burton, kurt Russell'scharacter takes himself very
seriously, but the film does nottake him seriously, the
(01:00:26):
straight white cis dude herothat we have been kind of
expected to identify with forforever, over and over and over
again.
Russell's jack burton is notthat guy.
Right, he knocks himself outduring the pinnacle fight scene.
He, he is like distracted andlike jumps to the rescue after
his, who he thinks of as thesidekick, but in fact is the
(01:00:50):
hero.
Wang has already disabled allof the bad guys he kills.
He does in fact kill the bigbad, but he does it wearing
lipstick accidentally, whichthen his would-be girlfriend
wipes off of his mouth with hersleeve afterward.
So, like Jack is not the hero,he is in many ways ridiculed and
(01:01:17):
is the butt of the joke overand, over and over again, which
is kind of delightful, and sothis film is, in that sense,
woke.
It also sees like crazy,stereotyped, like not based, I
don't think, in any kind ofactual cultural, cultural
reality, like Chinese charactersand caricatures, who
(01:01:43):
nevertheless, like Chineseculture, does not feel like it
is the butt of the joke and asfar as I can tell and I'm
willing, I'm completely willingto be corrected here, but as far
as I can tell, was largelyappreciated and embraced by
Chinese Americanscontemporaneously.
They felt in on the joke, right, because, again, like Chinese
(01:02:10):
actors were playing these partsthat were awesome and fun and
funny and really heroic.
Like Wang actually fits thestereotype of the hero, right,
he fights for what he believesin, he beats the bad guys
through sheer force of will andskill because he is a kung fu
master, apparently, he gets the,he saves the girl, he gets the
(01:02:32):
girl.
Like he, he ticks all the boxes.
Wang ticks all the boxes forthe hero of the story and that
is refreshing to have that asthe chinese american or chinese,
uh, what chinese american uhcharacter here, um, in terms of
gender it does pass bechdelbarely, still not a particularly
(01:02:54):
feminist film.
We do have gracie law, who'samazing.
She really is a bad-ass and, um, and we do have this sort of
subversion.
We it gives and takes.
On the one hand she relents andand like, despite all of the
magic, the thing about which shesays I can't believe this is
(01:03:15):
real is kissing Kurt Russell,but at the same time, when he's
like nah, she's like hi.
So you know there's a give andtake.
There's a give and take there.
Kim Cattrall really sells it.
She's delightful.
And even Margot, the kind ofnaive journalist who's like
(01:03:38):
trying to get her big break,she's, um, I don't feel as
though she is made fun of.
She's not a fully fleshed outcharacter, but neither does she
feel like, um, overly sexualizedor overly demeaned like she's.
Like she's not fully fleshed out, but none of of these guys are
right.
They're all caricatures to acertain extent, and hers is not
(01:04:01):
like an anti-feminist caricature.
Speaker 2 (01:04:04):
So there's that.
The lawyer's name is Gracie Law.
Speaker 1 (01:04:07):
Yeah.
So what am I forgetting that wetalked about?
We spent a lot of time talkingabout exposition and sort of not
taking yourself too seriously.
And you brought in Goldman andthe ways in which he taught us
to sort of like, do what you'regood at and like, don't try to
(01:04:32):
do the things you're not good at.
Find a way to work to writearound it.
So in the Princess Bride thatwas like the frame story that
says there's a romance butdoesn't actually show the
romance.
And you pointed out that, likeGeorge Lucas forgot that and
gave us like ponderousexposition with them.
But what are midi-chlorians?
And we also spent some timetalking about sort of layers of
(01:04:57):
nuance in terms of, like,portraying racism versus being
racist.
And so you brought in oh,brother, we're out.
Art thou versus um the um,family guy, family guy thank you
versus family guy.
Speaker 2 (01:05:12):
Uh, I also named the fact that there's a, an element
of parody in this film that theaudience would have brought some
knowledge with them into thetheater in 1986, which, to a
certain extent, is missing inwatching it in 2024 and that
sort of affects the way we viewthis like woke or problematic
(01:05:32):
question and the camp and thedepiction of chinese culture do
you know that, um, that gets tosomething that, uh, I feel like
with with my students I wastrying to teach them because we
often, um do this context is soimportant in understanding like
anything but piece of media,like a response to something,
(01:05:55):
and so, and for a long time, andlike we were kind of raised
with this, there was this ideathat decontextualizing things is
how you get to be not racist,right, so, like by saying, like
well, you couldn't do this aboutyou know a different
demographic.
Like well, that's not about adifferent demographic.
There's a reason we're doing itabout this demographic, you
(01:06:16):
know that sort of thing,demographic, you know that sort
of thing.
So, so that gets into it too isthe context of what Kung Fu
movies were that we have lostthat context.
So a you know, young Gen Z arewatching this movie for the
first time might be horrified inways that their parents
wouldn't have been when they sawit in the theater, because they
(01:06:37):
just aren't aware of the moviesthat came before.
Speaker 1 (01:06:42):
Yeah, I just want to reiterate like this movie is so
weird, but like really, reallyfun, really fun.
And so I think, as with all ofour films, all of our films, if
we are willing to talk about it,it's absolutely worth a rewatch
.
Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
So any final thoughts ?
Uh, so the reason I rememberedthe green eyes is because you
and I both have green eyes.
Yeah, that's stuck in my head.
So I do not.
We, neither of us, have thelike emerald green eyes that are
clearly contact lenses.
Speaker 1 (01:07:23):
In fact, in the credits I noticed there's like a
contact lenses by Dr So-and-soyeah, yeah, no Much more olive
green, anyway, yes, Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:07:33):
So next time?
Yeah, what's next time?
I am bringing you my deepthoughts on Alien.
Speaker 1 (01:07:40):
Oh, we have been talking about Alien for episodes
after episode after episode.
Speaker 2 (01:07:44):
So excited about this .
Speaker 1 (01:07:46):
Cool beans.
I can't wait, all right.
Well, until then.
Until then, do you likestickers?
Sure, we all do.
If you head over toguygirlsmediacom, slash, sign up
and share your address with us,we'll send you a sticker.
It really is that easy.
But don't wait, there's alimited quantity.
Thanks for listening.
(01:08:08):
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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