Deep Thoughts about Chasing Amy

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
There's a point where Holden asks Alyssa, why me Like
?
Why?
Why?
Of all the men in the world?
Why?
Why are you with me?
Which I think is an excellentquestion, because Holden is
extremely mid.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
What others might deem stupid shit.
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
We're sisters Tracy and Emily,collectively known as the guy
girls Every week we take turnsrewatching, researching.
And Emily, collectively knownas the Guy Girls.
Every week, we take turnsre-watching, researching and
reconsidering beloved media andsharing what we learn.
Come overthink with us and ifyou get value from the show,

(00:34):
please consider supporting us.
You can become a patron onPatreon or send us a one-time
tip through Ko-fi.
Both links are in the shownotes and thanks.

Speaker 1 (00:44):
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
On today's episode, I will besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1997 Kevin Smith filmChasing Hate Me, with my sister,
tracy Guy-Decker, and with you,let's dive in.
So, tracy, if I recallcorrectly, you haven't seen this

(01:07):
film.
I don't think I have.
Okay, do you have any notionany like furniture in your mind
about it?
Just from the zeitgeist.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yeah, so from the zeitgeist, what I know is that I
think it's the titularcharacter is a lesbian, but all
she needs is a deep digging torealize she's actually straight.
That's what's in my head aboutthis movie, which is maybe why
I've never seen it, cause thatjust doesn't sound appealing.
Yeah, that does not soundappealing.
So I don't know if that's trueor accurate or fair, but that's

(01:39):
what's in my head about it.
So tell me, uh, why are we?
Why are we talking about ittoday?

Speaker 1 (01:46):
So a couple of reasons why we're talking about
it.
This movie came out when I was18.
It was on regular rotation whenI was in college.
I actually can remember mycollege would show movies in the
big amphitheater where you hadthe 101 science classes, because
we didn't have the theater oncampus, and so I remember seeing
it there and that was not thefirst time I'd seen campus, and
so I remember seeing it thereand that was not the first time

(02:06):
I'd seen it, and there was a lotof conversation about it.
I can recall absolutely adoringthe first like 10 minutes of
the movie, which is very funny,and I also.
It hits different now comparedto 1997 and thereafter, but I
have watched those first 10minutes many, many, many, many

(02:26):
times, more often than I've seenthe whole movie.
It is, I think, the onset of myassertion that Ben Affleck
makes me irrationally angry.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
That's funny.
He's like William Hurt, yourversion of dad's yes.

Speaker 1 (02:44):
Wasn't it William Hurt.
It was William Hurt.

Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yeah, every time it made dad irrationally angry.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
Yeah, Every time we'd see a movie that had William
Hurt in it, dad would be like,oh, that movie I don't like
William Hurt Like what would behis response to it.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
It's like a regular blockbuster conversation that we
would have.

Speaker 1 (03:05):
Constantly yes, and that has remained.
There has never been a timewhere he has not made me
irrationally angry, although atsome point I think it became
rational, just to be fair to you.
So this is before I knew I hadgood reason for his face to make
me want to punch something.
Despite that, I kind of likedthe movie and felt like at the

(03:26):
time it felt very progressive,although at the time there were
still like is it, though?
Kind of questions about it, andI think I mentioned, when I
told you that we were going tobe doing this one, that this is
one of the two films that shouldhave helped me understand that
I am neurodivergent, because itsurprised the heck out of me

(03:47):
when someone, self-professedabout something over and over
and over again, acts in acontrary to what they are
self-professed and confuse thehell out of me, like I was like
wait, what's happening?
I'm not, I'm not watching thesame movie.
I thought I was so.
So those are the reasons.
And then this was not when weput it on the calendar.

(04:10):
I had not done this, but I justsaw an amazing documentary by a
young filmmaker named Sav Rogerscalled Chasing, chasing Amy,
which I'm going to includeinformation about in the show
notes and that I highlyrecommend everyone watch because
it's amazing.
Show notes and that I highlyrecommend everyone watch because
it's amazing and I want SavRogers to have a long filmmaking
career that is, you know,storied and well-funded and all

(04:30):
of that.
That is about how this filmsaved his life, um, as a young
queer kid in Kansas, um, and heis a Zoomer, I think.
I think he was born in the late90s and so he happened to

(04:51):
discover it when he was about 12years old and when he was being
bullied.
It gave him something that hecould latch on to.
There are good queer charactersin the world.
There are people like me whohave love, who are funny, who
are smart in the world.
There are people like me whohave love, who are funny, who
are smart, and he ended upmaking a viral TED Talk, which

(05:13):
I've also linked to in the shownotes.
That got the attention of KevinSmith, and in the TED Talk, sav
mentions that he is a filmmaker, and so Kevin Smith reached out
to him and said, if you want tomake a documentary about this,
I know the people who made itand they have become friends.
And there is this just anincredible story of what this

(05:33):
film has meant for Sav in hislife and how he is able to like
let it go and move on with hislife without it.
So, anyway, so that's that'spart of the reason why I'm very
excited to talk about it today.
So those are.
Those are kind of the thingsthat are that are in my head
about it.
And then there's a queerrepresentation, as written and

(05:56):
directed by a straight white man, has a lot of like issues, like
people call the filmproblematic and some of it is,
like Smith himself will say,like these are things that were
progressive in 1997.
And then, like you move forward25 years and now it's like it's

(06:18):
not almost 30 years, it's notprogressive anymore, it's like
regressive.
So like there's some of it.

(06:40):
Is that some of that is likethis is what happens when you
get a well, accidentally does areally good job of explaining
biphobia and bi erasure.
So there's a lot there.
And it's also like it's alittle painful to watch now,
nearly 30 years on, but there'sstill a lot to really like about

(07:05):
it.
Um, but it's it's.
It's a complicated.
It's a complicated movie torevisit cool.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
Well, I'll look forward to the analysis, but it
sounds like you need to set therecord straight for what the
actual plot is based on.
My yes, uh, never having seenit.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
Yes, yes, so the movie is about a woman named
Alyssa, not Amy.
It's called Chasing Amy becauseKevin Smith, as Silent Bob,
tells a story of how he screwedup and lost a woman that he
loved named Amy, and so eversince then he's been chasing Amy

(07:42):
.
That's a very Kevin Smith sortof thing to do.
It's like a, like a frame.
No, not until, like, you'relike three quarters of the way
through the movie before you seethat Huh, okay, um, and it's,
it's a.
It's a very Kevin Smith thingto do.
He he likes to make things makesense for himself, and he has

(08:02):
actually described this makingthis movie as cheaper than
therapy Interesting, althoughthe woman that he wrote it about
was not named Amy either.

Speaker 2 (08:15):
Sure.

Speaker 1 (08:19):
So we meet Ben Affleck's character, holden
McNeil, and his lifelong bestfriend, banky Edwards, who is
played by Jason Lee.
They're comic book artists inNew Jersey.
They have a fairly successfulcomic book called Bluntman and
Chronic that's based on Jay andSilent Bob.
That is selling pretty well.

(08:40):
They write this comic together.
Holden is the initial artistand Banky is the inker and color
and stuff like that.
And so when we first meet him,someone is calling him a tracer.
You're nothing but a tracer andBanky is getting very angry
about it.
They're at a Manhattan ComicCon and they go in to sit on a

(09:03):
panel about minority voices incomic books.
There's a man there who has themic.
Hooper X is the character's name.
He's played by an actor namedDwight Ewell, who is still alive
, but no longer.
I was curious why Yule was notin the documentary that I

(09:25):
mentioned and apparently he isno longer doing anything public.
He had some sort of injury inlike 2013.
So Hooper X is a black man.
His comic book is called WhiteHating Coon and his speech is
all about how the comic book andsci-fi fantasy world is

(09:48):
whitewashed and there are no umblack heroes for children to
look up to.
The ones that there are werewritten by white men and they're
whitewashed.
Banky and Holden start likeheckling him, saying like wait a
minute, what about LandoCalrissian?
And Hooper says like who saidthat?

(10:09):
Oh, you're going to bring upthe Holy Trilogy or the whole.
Yeah, the Holy Trilogy there's.
You know Lando Calrissian is anUncle Tom and you know we are
given Darth Vader, who is thebiggest blackest Nubian.
And Banky goes what's a Nubian?
And Hooper takes out a gun andstarts shooting at the, shoots

(10:31):
Banky and shoots out the ceiling.
And then he comes off the stageand he like drops the very
serious, like angry persona andhe is very stereotypically gay.
He describes himself as swishy.
And Holden and Bankey are likehow are you allowed to get away
with this?
Why does your publisher letthis?

(10:51):
And he's like no, my publisherinsists on this.
They get all the permissionsahead of time.
This is to sell comic books,because they won't buy comic
books from a gay black man, butan angry black man.
Absolutely.
Alyssa Jones, played by JoeyLauren Adams, and her character
is actually based on Joey LaurenAdams because Adams and Kevin
Smith were dating, althoughAdams is straight, that's the

(11:17):
only like the big difference.
So Alyssa comes over and islike why do you sound like Louis
Farrakhan on stage and the Kingof Pop off stage?
And Hooper introduces everyone.
Holden is immediately smittenand the four of them go out for
drinks.
There's some conversation aboutwhat it's like to be on the

(11:43):
minority panel in comic books.
Alyssa writes a comic bookcalled idiosyncratic routines
which she talks about as beinghearts and love and flowers and
stuff like that.
But it's, um, I believe,lesbian comic.
It's not clear but I can'tremember, but it's, it's, it's
romantic comic.
Nobody buys it.
So Holden and Alyssa end upflirting that night and then

(12:06):
holden and banky go back homethe next day.
They're talking about you knowother stuff, you know you see
them drawing things like thatthey taught you know.
It's made clear that how longtheir friendship has been going
on, since like elementary school, like they went to catholic
school together.
And Hooper calls and invitesHolden to come to a bar where he

(12:26):
is going to be attending barthat night, because Alyssa is
going to be there, and ask thatshe extend the invitation.
It's a bar called Meow Mix.
They go Holden's again likeflirting with Alyssa.
He asks Hooper, he's like, oh,I'm going to go over and dance
with her.
And Hooper says wait, wait,there's something you should
know.
And Holden says does she have aboyfriend?
And he says no.
And he's like well then there'snothing to know, and that's the

(12:51):
point.
So they're flirting for a littlebit the band stops playing and
someone gets on and says yeah,we used to have this bass player
before she left to draw somefunny books or something.
But what you might not know isthat she had these delusions of
being able to sing and so wewanted to come up and sing.
So Alyssa goes up, she sings asong called Passion, something
like that.
Holden thinks she's singing tohim, but there is a young woman

(13:15):
standing very near him and whenthe song ends, alyssa and the
young woman come and arecrawling down each other's
throats out and banky, you see,like looking around, and like
the light bulb go off over hishead.
It's like meow mix, we meow mix, yeah.
So they have a seat.

(13:37):
Holden is now no longer havingfun and is really miserable, and
Banky and Alyssa start talkingabout.
So Alyssa tells Kim the youngwoman, like you know, go dance
and I'll work up the desire tofuck you later.
And Banky's, like you said,fuck.
What do you mean?
Fuck Like you're two women,what with a strap on, and like

(14:00):
there's this kind of cringyconversation that apparently
Kevin Smith actually had with afriend of his who's a lesbian
About what the actual sex act is.
Yeah, what fucking is if hethinks it's only penetration Got
it.
And then they end up sharing,like sharing war story, scars

(14:24):
from like permanent injury theyhave gotten from going down on
different women because ofdifferent things going wrong.
I see, and it's very much likethe sharing scars scene from
Jaws, yeah, okay.
So Holden and Banky end upleaving and several days later
Alyssa shows up at Holden's it'sunclear if their office and

(14:45):
apartment, if they live there ornot, but anyway shows up there
and says like I think I made youuncomfortable the other night.
I like you, I like it's been along time since I've wanted to
be friends with a guy and youknow I don't want you to be
uncomfortable.
So, ask, you have any questions, please ask.
And so he's like all right.
And asks like so are you avirgin?

(15:07):
She's like no, I've had allkinds of sex, she's like, and
he's like, but not real sex.
And she, she says, in theinterest of continuing to like
you, I'm going to pretend youdidn't say that.
And so, like it's into thislike.
So what does sex mean?
What is penetration?
What do you like?
What are these things?
That?
And?
and they kind of talk aboutthat- then, there's a montage of
them spending time together, um, really enjoying themselves and

(15:31):
all of that.
Banking, meanwhile, is likefurious, like he really doesn't
like alissa, um, you see hergiving him a hard time several
times, which is part of it.
But he also also says to Holdenlike it's my job to have your
back and like this is not goingto end well.
And Banky uses really offensivelanguage.

(15:51):
He uses the F slur consistently.
He uses, I feel, like Dyke is Ifeel less weird about using
that word, but I still don'tfeel comfortable using that word
.
But he uses the D slur forlesbian and he's doing that at

(16:12):
one point.
And Holden says like look, Iknow that that's not who you are
, you're not a prejudiced person.
Like can you please stop withthe language?
And they're alone in theiroffice.
And they're alone in theiroffice and Banky's like I can

(16:47):
say whatever I want in theprivacy of my has.
Um, a cuddly, man-friendly,lipstick, lesbian.
At one.
Um, one interest, one part ofthe intersection.
Then there's a like man-hatingdyke at another, then santa
claus and then the easter bunny.
And he says, okay, look at this, who's going to get to the $100
first?
And Holden says the man-hatingdyke.
And Banky says that's right,because the other three are

(17:13):
figments of your imagination.
Ew, yeah.
Holden says you need to leavethis alone because I'm in love
with her.
And Banky is just like what doyou think you're doing here?
Like nothing, nothing's goingto happen.
You can't do this.
We see Alyssa and Holden doingmore stuff and they are at a

(17:35):
diner one night after he's toldBanky that he's in love with her
and there are, there's art onthe walls, like really kind of
crappy art.
And she negotiates with someoneat the diner to buy this crappy
painting.
And they're in the car drivingback and he's like so where are
you going to hang it?
She's like I'm not going tohang it, you are.

(17:57):
And he's like what are yourfriends going to say if you tell
them you need a man to help youhang a painting?
She's like no, no, no, you'regoing to hang it in your house
because I bought this as a giftfor you to remind you of, like,
our friendship and our meetingand all of this.
And so he pulls the car overand he says I'm never going to
need a painting to remind me ofthis, because I am in love with
you and you have, like funnily,fundamentally changed who I am

(18:20):
and this might end ourfriendship.
But I can't hold it in anymoreand I love you.
And then comes the moment wherelittle baby neurodivergent Emily
was so confused.
Alyssa gets out the car andstarts walking like in it's
raining buckets.
Holden gets out the car too andlike runs after her and she's
like that was so unfair.

(18:41):
He's like it's unfair that I'min love with you.
She says no, it's unfortunatethat you're in love with me.
It's unfair that you put thaton me.
You know who I am.
You know, like, what my life is.
This is like stop, this is yourproblem, not mine.
And she tells him just go home.
And so he's like moping back tothe car and then she runs after

(19:01):
him and jumps on him and kisseshim and I was like what's
happening here?
What's happening here?
She's gay.
She just said that.
She just said she's gay.
So the next morning Banky comesin and finds them all curled up
together on his sofa and hedrops the chocolate milk he was

(19:25):
carrying, wakes them up and likeleaves.
And so Holden comes out andtalks to Banky and Banky says to
him like this can't end well,and Holden's like you don't know
that.
And Banky says you're tooconservative, like she has done
things that we've only ever readabout and so you're not going
to be able to handle it.
And Holden says, like well, atleast we've read about it.

(19:48):
And he's like there's no we onthis, this is on you.
There's a point where Holdenasks Alyssa, why me Like?
Why, why of all the men in theworld?
Why, why are you with me?
Which I think is an excellentquestion, because Holden is
extremely mid.

(20:12):
And so Alyssa has this lovelymonologue where she says, like,
growing up, like it's becauseshe came to it on her own terms.
Growing up, she was expected togo for guys.
That was what everyone told,her society, her parents, life

(20:34):
told her, and she thought it wasstupid to have her potential of
finding the love of her life byonly looking towards men, and
so she wasn't going to limitherself by only looking at men
because it might be among women.
And so she, she wasn't going tolike limit herself by only
looking at men because there'syou know, that might be among
women.
And so she dated women all thistime.
And then she met Holden and shereally liked him, and then, as
she was like no, we don't belongtogether in her head.

(20:58):
She was realizing she was doingexactly what she hated as a kid.
Thinking like this can't besomething that can happen
because of who he is.
I'm still like limiting myselfbecause he's a man rather than
limiting myself because it's awoman, so I'm really

(21:19):
paraphrasing it badly.
It's a very well done monologuewhere she's basically making it
clear that I'm with you becauseI fell in love with you and you
are the person who feels like agood fit with me.
We feel like we compliment eachother and the fact that you
have a penis has nothing to dowith it one way or another.
So, in other words, it's like areally good explanation of

(21:44):
pansexuality.

Speaker 2 (21:46):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (21:47):
So we also see Alyssa and meeting with her friends
and they're like we haven't seenyou in a while.
She's like, oh, I'm so in love.
And they're like, oh really,who is she?
And she's kind of doing thepronoun game.
She's like, oh, we have so muchfun.
They're from New Jersey.
And the friends are like, whyare you playing the pronoun game
?
What is the name of this person?

(22:08):
And she says Holden.
And her friends are all likedisappointed, and like one like
pours a glass of wine and says,well, here's to you both.
Another one bites the dust, solike um, and that's, I think,
part of what.
Uh, in the documentary Imentioned, they were talking
about the, the biphobia.
I think it's different in 1997than it would be in 2025.

Speaker 2 (22:41):
Maybe a little bit, but well, I guess we'll get into
the analysis.
But just in the moment whatbothers me is Kevin Smith's
sense that the friendshipbetween these women is so
fucking superficial these womenis so fucking superficial.

Speaker 1 (22:58):
So now to be fair to Kevin Smith, he became friends
with a filmmaker named GuinevereTurner who made a film called
Go Fish.
She is a lesbian.
The film is like very overtlyabout being a lesbian in America
in the early nineties and theywere both at Sundance or one of
those like in 1993, 94 withclerks, and so there was a lot

(23:21):
of buzz about Go Fish.
Nobody had heard of clerks andso they kind of like got to know
each other and became friendsthen and have been like friends
since.
Like they they are long time,like lifelong friends, and she
has a small part in the movieand she also helped him with
some of the writing about beinga lesbian.

(23:45):
So that wasn't just coming fromhim.
That was not just coming fromhim.
All right, All right.

Speaker 2 (23:52):
Carry on Sorry to interrupt.

Speaker 1 (23:53):
That's okay.
Anki then tells Holden that heran into someone who went to
high school with Alyssa.
So they went to, they grew up atown away from each other and
so someone who they went to highschool with for like the first
two or three years and then hetransferred to the high school
that Alyssa went to two andfinds out that Alyssa had the

(24:20):
nickname Finger Cuffs becausethere was a time when she went
down on one guy while beingfucked by another, so like
Chinese finger cuffs.
And so Holden's like I don'tbelieve it, stop, leave this
alone, let it be.
And he ends up going to talk toHooper about it and Hooper is
like the voice of reason and themoral compass of of the film,

(24:40):
because Hooper is saying um saysto him like so, so what if it's
true?
And he's like I don't know whyit bothers me, like it shouldn't
bother me, like I know she'shad sex with all these women and
that doesn't bother me, but forsome reason this, this is
bothering me.
And they talk also about Bankyand Hooper says Banky loves you
in ways that he has not dealtwith yet.
And Hooper suggests to Holdenif you want to know, ask her,

(25:05):
just ask her right out.
And instead of doing that,holden passive, aggressively,
slut shames her in public, wherehe starts with, like hey, I saw
your, your yearbook, and yournickname was finger cuffs what
was that about?
And she's like been years, Idon't remember.
And then he says, well, hey, doyou, do you know a guy named

(25:28):
Rick Darius?
It was one of the two guys thatshe she had this threesome with
.
She's like yeah, we used tohang out in high school.
And then she starts telling thestory, like laughing because
she knows where he's going, sothat she and then finally, like
she yells at him like yeah, Isucked him off while Kobe London
fucked me.
Is that what you wanted to hear?
And they're in public, they'reat a ice hockey game.

(25:51):
And the like guy next to Holdensays like yeah, man, I knew
where you were going with thisand I don't even know you.
And she runs out, he followsand he's like how could you do
something like that?
And she's like that happenedbefore I met you and I was an
experimental girl.
Like what is your problem?

(26:12):
And she says, look, I allowedyou to believe that I had never
been with a guy before andthat's that's on me.
I should not have allowed youto believe that, but I knew that
it made you feel special in away that my telling you that
you're special wasn't going towork, wasn't going to do.
But that's on me.
The rest of that, no, I'm notgoing to apologize for the
choices I've made because theyled me here.
This is who I am, this is whatI've done and, like there, I

(26:35):
have nothing to apologize for.
So, like she storms off, hestorms off, he ends up meeting
with Jane, silent Bob.
That's when Silent Bob tellsthat story about.
Like it was a similar sort ofthing.
His Amy had had a threesomewith a previous boyfriend and
Bob couldn't handle it.
Like he felt inadequate becauselike he couldn't compete with

(26:58):
that.
And so, instead of dealing withhis inadequacy, he slut shamed
her and like got angry.
And it wasn't until after sheleft that he realized like no,
no, this is about my owninsecurity.
But by then it was too late,she had moved on and you know,
for the rest of his life he'llbe chasing Amy.
So we see Holden like lookingat the yearbook and like kind of

(27:20):
looking like he's going to cometo some decision.
And then he meets with Bankyand Alyssa and he says like
you're probably wondering why Ihave you both here.
Basically, he proposes likelet's have a threesome, the fuck
I know, I know.
Let's have a threesome, thefuck I know, I know.
So his thinking is like thatwill fix everything because that

(27:40):
will allow Banky to finally,like, act on the homoeroticism
between the two of them.
Yes, but there will be a womanthere.
So it's like, okay, and then,like that means Holden will feel
like he's caught up with Alyssa, but they're, they're gonna be
doing this together.
And so Banky says fine about it.

(28:03):
And then Alyssa says no andBanky goes, thank Christ.
Meanwhile, like Alyssa seeswhat's coming and she's like
don't do this, Don't do this,Don't do this.
And she says, like this is notwhat you want.
And he's like, well, I thoughtyou'd be into it.
And she's like is that what youthink of me?
Like, look, this is no, this is.

(28:25):
I've done that.
It's a, it's past and I don'twant to share you.

(28:53):
And why do you want to share me?
And like there's no good cancome of this and a cartoon like
an animation of Bluntman andChronic.
And Holden's been like I'm notsure I want to do this, I want
to do something, write somethingmore personal.
And Banky really wants to.
We see, it's one year later andBanky is signing comics at

(29:14):
another Comic-Con and someonehands him Bluntman and Chronic
and he goes oh, that's a blastfrom the past, because he's now
writing something called BabyDave or something like that.
He's writing a different newcomic by himself On his own, yes
, and he and Holden see eachother and they kind of like, you
know, like Nod, Nod at eachother While Banky is telling the

(29:37):
fan yeah, like the cartoon fellapart, the comic fell apart.
We're not working togetheranymore, we're not friends
anymore.
And then Holden goes to Alyssa,who's signing idiosyncratic
routine with a.
She has a girlfriend there, afriend there who is a girl it's
not clear if they'reromantically involved and he
hands her his new comic calledChasing Amy, and it's about how

(30:04):
he screwed everything up and howhe's learned from it.
And he says I wanted you to havea copy of this.
She's like, oh, is this new?
I haven't seen it.
He's like, yeah, very small run, I only did 50 copies.
And she's like, oh, it looksreally personal.
He's like, yeah, I hadsomething personal to say
finally.
And so he hands it to her andsays I hope you'll take a minute
to read it at some point.
And then that's he, he leavesand that's the end of the film.

Speaker 2 (30:27):
Oh, that's the end of the film.
That's the end of the film.
Oh, so we don mean the payoffis-.

Speaker 1 (30:31):
There is no payoff.
There is no payoff because-that's how life works.
Yeah, and Alyssa is absolutelycorrect.
Yeah, in everything.
Yeah, fuck that.
Yeah.
So like when people call it aromantic comedy, that's not
exactly correct, yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:50):
That's not the genre.

Speaker 1 (30:51):
Yeah, yeah, it breaks that genre Because a romantic
comedy they'd end up togetheryeah, yeah, and as it is written
, it ends the way it needs toend, like that would destroy the
relationship between banky andholden um, it absolutely
destroys the relationshipbetween holden and alissa.
Um, that there's.
It is all.

(31:12):
Absolutely correct that that iswhat would happen, and it lets
all the queer characters be theheroes, like.
Alyssa doesn't do anythingwrong at any point, although I

(31:34):
think that she is way too goodfor holding at every point and
she she stands up for herself,has self-respect and is clear
that this is like.

Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yeah, she calls bullshit.
She puts boundaries around herself-worth.
Mm-hmm, sounds like.

Speaker 1 (31:49):
Yeah, and, as I said, hooper is like the moral center
, yeah, of the film and is likegives really good advice that
Holden is too stupid to take.
So let me some background aboutthe film that I didn't know
until today.
I knew that it was a personalfilm for Kevin Smith.

(32:11):
I didn't know he wrote it basedon.
He was dating Joey Lauren Adams, who plays Alyssa, and he wrote
the character for her.
They dated for a little while.
Kevin Smith had expected to livein the same 20 mile radius in
New Jersey his entire life andwhile Adams is from Arkansas,
when they had met, and eventhough they were both in their

(32:32):
20s, she had had what hedescribed as a bigger life, she
had like been to Bali and shehad dated several different men
and a bunch of different stuff.
And when he learned about it helike felt inadequate and

(32:52):
insecure and like basically feltlike he wanted her to apologize
for her entire life, up untilthey met, and he describes it as
like he thought he of himselfas this like progressive
nineties guy, but as soon as itlike hit his own insecurities,
he wasn't, he couldn't be, andso he described this, this film,
as being like therapy.
Now Kevin Smith also has abrother who is gay and you know

(33:13):
he grew up loving movies and hehated for his brother that there
were no love stories in the gaycommunity and so like he wanted
to write something for hisbrother, ended up having this

(33:39):
very like romantic friendshipwith a friend of Kevin's, a man
named Scott Mosier, who was likeproducer for for all of Kevin's
early works.
They they met at that, you know, early Sundance and they just
like really connected and sothat that relationship that was
like very weirdly romantic butcompletely asexual, was also
something that he foundinteresting.
So those are the, those are thethings that kind of work

(34:01):
together to write this film.
And so the ben affleck character, holden, is a self-insert and
uh like, uh, kevin smith saysthe only thing that's, you know,
not like me at all is that Icast ben affleck, which was wish
fulfillment.
I was like, yeah, but kevin, Idon't want to punch you in the
face every time I see you.
So I think that that, likethere is an honesty to this film

(34:26):
that I think is admirable.
This is about a straight whiteman's growth, which is exactly
what Kevin Smith went through.

Speaker 2 (34:35):
Yeah, I hear that, and it's unfortunate that that's
the only queer representationwe got.
Well, right, so we have Hooper,but we don't see any love
interest for Hooper, no, no.

(35:03):
And we have alissa, who is inthis like complicated space um,
where she like falls in lovewith a mid dude because he's the
author self-insert.
And then banky, who is has alot of internalized homophobia.

Speaker 1 (35:16):
So and I.
So that was another aspect ofit.
I always took cooper sayingbanky loves you in ways that he
hasn't dealt with yet to meanthat banky didn't know what to
do with, like the amount ofaffection he had for his, his

(35:36):
best friend.
I did not take it to mean thatbanky was closeted.
Um, you did it, I did not.
Now again, neurodivergent, andin you know, kevin smith keeps
everything within the sameuniverse, and so he.
I've read about this because Ihaven't seen it.

(35:57):
I don't know where it is, butsomewhere further along the line
in another movie.
You see, banky and Hooper aredating.

Speaker 2 (36:07):
Oh, interesting Okay.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
But to me it was just like what.

Speaker 2 (36:14):
It was just like what and part of it is like you see
the way that Banky talks aboutwomen, talks about pornography,
talks about sex, but that jibesfor someone who is closeted and
has a lot of internalized.

Speaker 1 (36:34):
So let me talk about my neurodivergence.

Speaker 2 (36:44):
So I do not get subtext.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
I don't think I am neurodivergent, but it takes me
a little while to get subtextsometimes, and I especially
don't get queer subtext, in partbecause I did not have any
reason to learn what the markerswere.
With this film, Alyssathroughout says I'm gay, I'm gay
, I'm gay.
And so when she kisses Holdenafter, like screaming at him for

(37:11):
like why are you putting me inthis position?
I was confused as hell.
Like literally, I was just likewhat is happening here?
What is going on in this movie?
Now that gets to one of thethings I like very much about
myself, which is that I takepeople at their word and lessen
until I have a reason not to,totally so, and I mind my own
business like a motherfucker.

(37:32):
I love that about myself.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So you know.
Someone says they're gay, Ibelieve them.
Okay, right, right.

Speaker 2 (37:45):
Someone says they're not I believe them, because it's
not I mean, and alsotheoretically, they know
themselves better than you do,right?

Speaker 1 (37:49):
Yes, exactly so, uh, and the same thing for me
happened with the whole likebanking Holden thing because,
like, like there I didn'trecognize any subtextual markers
.

Speaker 2 (38:04):
I'm curious in rewatch now with this in mind,
are the subtext markers therefor Alyssa that she's by or pan
or whatever before she, likekisses him?
That is a good question um,because, like the way you talked
, like he talks about women,like he degrades women, he talks
about pornography, he's like,it's like he doth protest too

(38:28):
much, yeah, which doesn't feelquite the same as I'm gay, I'm
gay, I'm gay'm gay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:34):
Um, now I will say like the only aspect of it is
that she seems drawn to Holden,which doesn't necessarily mean
anything, because you can havelike romantic friendships, like
the one that this story is basedon, but no, there's not really
any subtext prior to that, andso that's part of the reason why

(38:58):
people say, like you know whyyou had the idea of, like you
know, you just need some deepdick in.

Speaker 2 (39:03):
Yeah, it feels like mediocre, straight dude wish
fulfillment In some ways.
Yes, yes.

Speaker 1 (39:13):
However, and as, as like in that documentary I
mentioned, there is a reallyexcellent case for this film
accidentally being about bierasure and biphobia.
In that clips from things fromthe same same era, the late

(39:37):
nineties, talking about how,like, uh, bisexuality doesn't
exist.
You know it's like you got topick a side, pick a lane, and
that you know the reaction ofher friends like, oh, you're,
you're you're betraying.
You're switching sides.
Yeah, yeah, totally so.
That is not, I think, whatnecessarily Kevin Smith set out
to do.
Sure, so that is not, I think,what necessarily Kevin Smith set
out to do.
But it is a very gooddistillation of how that happens

(40:00):
, how you feel like you have topick a side.

Speaker 2 (40:03):
Well, it's another one of those cases where it's a
little bit of a time capsule.
Unfortunately, I don't thinkit's changed all that much.
No, but he was reflectingsomething that was genuinely in
the culture, whether or not hewas intending to sort of talk
about that.
Yeah, that makes a lot of senseto me and also, I guess,
thinking about subtext andwhatever, if we read this

(40:32):
character, it sounds likeaccurately as bisexual or
pansexual or you know.
But in this world withbiphhobia, then her insistence
that she's gay also makes acertain amount of sense.
You know she's, she's activelyhaving sex with women and so
she's gay because she has topick a side and that's the side
she's playing for right now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so yeah,yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:53):
And so I will give Kevin Smith credit.
He wrote Alyssa as an amazingcharacter.

Speaker 2 (41:01):
Yeah, it does sound that way.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
She's great and always has been.
I've always, from the verybeginning, liked that character
and liked Joey Lauren Adams'portrayal of her, with the
exception of like.
Why are you with this guy?
Yeah, yeah, totally her, withthe exception of like.
Why are you with this guy?
Yeah, yeah, but okay, you know,whatever, and even at my most
open to like accepting, you know, straight white cis man as the

(41:29):
hero.
I just do not have any patiencefor for holden at any point
during the film.
It's from his point of view,but he is not the hero and this
is why I'm like alissa, you'retoo good for this.
His pouting after realizingthat she's gay, that that first

(41:49):
night when she's kissing theother woman, and then he's like
he's not having fun.
He needs to leave yeah, it's nota good look I mean it's just,
it's just, it's icky, and hersaying like she's doing so much
emotional labor, like, um, Ithink I made you uncomfortable,
I made you uncomfortable, right,right, yeah, like it's somehow
her fault yeah, or somethingthat she needs to, and she's

(42:10):
doing it correct.
she needs to correct and she'sdoing it because she likes him,
because she thinks she's like.
It's been a long time sinceI've liked a guy and I want to
hang out with you.
You seem but like why there'snothing that interesting about
this guy.
So like, the other thing KevinSmith does well is he writes
really good banter and theirbanter is crackling.

(42:31):
It's very, very funny.
So like as an 18 year oldwatching it I was like, okay,
you want more of that banter.
But now I'm like you can getthat anywhere.
There are some really, reallyfunny lesbians out there.
Go find one of them, but thatthat's.

(42:53):
You know he has to be a mid guyto react the way that he does
for this movie to do what itdoes right.

Speaker 2 (43:01):
Right, because ultimately, the sort of the core
of of the change that happensis is this mid dude growing and
realizing he's mid, yeah, yeahyeah, yeah, yeah, so quickly.
I want to ask if it passes backdown, because I heard the
lesbians talk to one another,but it's not like they were

(43:22):
talking about Holden.

Speaker 1 (43:24):
So they talk about a bunch of stuff, okay, so yeah,
you see, and they all have names.
They all have names.
Yeah.
Yeah, you see her talking toher girlfriend Kim about
different stuff.
There's the scene with friends.
There's a scene at the endwhere she's talking to her
friend who's there at theComic-Con with her Right, right,
cool cool, okay.

Speaker 2 (43:43):
So reminder listeners , the Bechdel test from Alison
Bechdel from her zine Like toWatch Out For was are there at
least two female characters withnames?
Do they talk to one another anddo they talk about something
other than a man or a boy?
So it passes in multipleinstances.
So yay, so got that out of theway.
Tell me about Sav Rogers, liketell me about how this.

(44:07):
Now you said before we startedrecording that Sav is a trans
man.
I really want to hear moreabout how this film saved his
life.
Like I don't hear it.
So tell me, how did that work?

Speaker 1 (44:19):
So when Sav was in middle school and was still
Savannah, other people hadsussed out his queerness, when
he was not necessarily aware ofit, and started to bully him in
the ted talk he talks about.
When he was 12 years old hereally liked ben affleck and so,

(44:41):
like he liked, uh, him indaredevil and so was looking for
other ben affleck films andfound chasing amy and this would
have been in, like it soundslike 2008 or 2009, and so at
that point, chasing the moviesalready 20 years old, oh, 10, 10
years old yeah, movies are 10years old and like not in the
zeitgeist anymore.

(45:01):
You know it was big when it cameout and but just not, it's not
something that you know,generally a kansas preteen would
find.
So he found it and he ended upwatching it over and over and
over again, watching it, he saiddaily for 30 days, at least
once a day For a month, for amonth, but also like just over

(45:23):
and over and over again watchingit, and he talks about how it
made him want to be a filmmakerand it gave him kind of a place
to go to kind of escape thebullying, kind of a place to go
to kind of escape the bullying.
So, like watching the film gavehim something to hope for and
something to live for, thatthere was a potential future for
him that wasn't just pain andpeople making decisions about

(45:48):
him, about his sexuality.

Speaker 2 (45:51):
And was was that about?
Because there were peoplelesbian because there were queer
characters just queer ingeneral, yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:00):
So and sav also talks about how when he initially
came out to his mother aspansexual, before he came out as
trans, his mom didn't know whatthat meant and so he said like
alissa and chasing amy.
She said, oh, okay, and like Isee, I see uh-huh, and so it
kind of gave him a framework forwho he could be that didn't

(46:24):
rely on what other peoplethought about him, didn't rely
on other people's assumptions ofwho he was and what he could do
.

Speaker 2 (46:31):
Yeah, and Alyssa as sort of a role model who's like
rejects I mean the monologuethat you were telling me about
where she sort of rejects what.
I mean the monologue that youwere telling about me about
where she sort of rejects likewhat rejects limits either that
other people put on her or thatshe has sort of decided to adopt
on her own, rejecting them both.
I can.

(46:52):
I can see where that could bean important role model for a
bullied queer kid who's comingto terms with his own queerness.

Speaker 1 (46:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:00):
And the multivalent layers of his queerness.

Speaker 1 (47:03):
Yes, and so he says very literally, this saved his
life because he was suicidal.
And the documentary is justlovely.
Now for one, Kevin Smith is sogenerous and welcoming and at
one point Sav says you told mewhen we first started talking

(47:27):
that it was not possible for meto bother you, to just reach out
to you.
I wouldn't be bothering you andI struggle with that.
But getting to meet you as afilmmaker is amazing and now I
can count you as a friend.
And there's a point because Savhad not transitioned when the
Ted talk came out and when heand Kevin were first talking.

(47:51):
So there's a point where Sav isinterviewing Kevin and Kevin
dead, names him by accident,like just cause he doesn't know,
and Sav cuts and they go offcamera and you see just text
saying like Sav is telling Kevinthat he is a trans man, but not
exactly out yet and a littleuncomfortable.
And apparently Kevin said tohim like I'm sorry you feel

(48:11):
uncomfortable, Like I want youto feel like you can be your
full self and screw people whohave any problem with that, and
it's just very much like beyourself, Like I'm here for you,
I appreciate you.
And Kevin also like gets chokedup at one point saying, like
you gave me my movie backbecause it has been.

(48:31):
People really have a problemwith it, for good reason.
But knowing that something thatKevin Smith made saved the life
of this young, young child whogrew up to become a filmmaker is
like the most wonderful thing.
And he's like like you gavemore to me than I ever gave to

(48:52):
you.

Speaker 2 (48:54):
So that's sweet.
I'm getting choked up.
It's lovely.

Speaker 1 (48:58):
And then there's an interview with Joy Lauren Adams,
which is a lot tougher.
So Sav interviews Adams, savinterviews Adams and she says,
like why do you want to talk tome?
And Sav says, well, like I wantto get to know you.
And she's like but there arecameras here, like you could

(49:18):
have come to a con and talked tome.
Then You're doing this oncamera.
And so she's like I want you toask me questions.
No one asks me about ChasingAmy.
And so, basically, adams talksabout how she has no regrets
about making this film and she'svery glad to have been part of
it and that it has had suchmeaning to Sav.

(49:39):
But it was an awful experiencefor her because it was based on
her.
It was based on two years offeeling bad about herself
because of how Kevin was, um,was so insecure, um.
And then the experience of likethe Kevin made the film

(50:01):
independently and then took itto he had had Harvey Weinstein's
contact and Harvey Weinsteinsaid he might distribute it
through Miramax, and so he tookit to Weinstein and he watched
the film and said this is aMiramax film.
And Kevin Smith says like Ican't feel sentimental about
that because now we know what weknow about Harvey Weinstein

(50:25):
While I was there at Sundance iswhen he was raping Rose McGowan
he's like.
So I can feel sentimental aboutthe young Kevin Smith who was
so naive.
I can feel sentimental abouthim.
And so Adams's experience atSundance was very different,
because she's avoiding HarveyWeinstein and Harvey Weinstein

(50:48):
didn't like her, which is adouble-edged sword, because it
meant she was safe from him.
But her career never took offlike Kevin Smith's did when it
should have, did when it shouldhave.
And she talks about how shewent through her own IMDb and
was like, okay, so on that movieand that movie and that movie
like someone sexually harassedme.

(51:08):
And you know there's the.
The AD is saying come sit on mylap and you, you have to do it,
because if you don't thenyou're difficult to work with.
No one wants to work with you.
You're a difficult actress.
And so she, she goes throughall of this and Sav is saying
like I'm, I'm.
I still have to say I'm gladthat you did it.

(51:29):
And she's like I am too.
But there is more to this thanwhat you saw on the VHS tape,
and part of what's gorgeousabout this documentary is we see
sav learning how to kind of letgo of this film and like grow
past his need for it because, uh, and you see him, um propose to

(51:54):
his girlfriend and um likethere's like and get married to
her and the it ends with themtalking about what they mean to
each other and how.
This is the love that he wantedand saw reflected in Chasing
Amy, and he has found it withhis girlfriend, who he met on
Tumblr.
They met on Tumblr and theytalk about how their

(52:20):
relationship started with thelie, because he really liked her
and she really liked lord ofthe rings and so he claimed like
lord of the rings too, becausehe wanted her to like him.
It's adorable.
So, um I it.
What I loved about thisdocumentary is it really got to
like the both end that we talkabout so much.

(52:40):
Yeah, and like I think Savthought he was already getting
to that, because he interviews alot of people who are like you
know, queer studies experts andthings like that, and talking
about, like, what is problematicabout the film.
He was already like grapplingwith the fact that this thing
that had such a profoundly goodeffect on him is also erasing

(53:05):
other realities and like givingcover for, like some kind of
ugly, homophobia and stuff likethat.
And so you can see he's likegobsmacked when Adams is telling
him all this and he said I hadto grow up over the course of an
hour talking to her and likeGod bless Joy Lauren Adams for

(53:29):
being like so open about it.
She's and she ends it withsaying like I didn't think I
could go through anotherbullshit.
Chasing Amy interview.
I wanted you to ask mequestions.
No one asks me and in particular, because kevin smith talks
about this as like thisexperience, like he was totally
in love with with adams, andlike this experience of like

(53:52):
writing the film based on likehis own insecurities, like they
broke up after the film was made, and like he feels like feels
like he sacrificed thisrelationship to have his career
and to grow as a human being andall of that, and he wouldn't
have chosen that if he'd knownthat's, that's what would have
happened.
And Adams is like that's nothow it felt for me, you know,

(54:13):
for him it's this kind of cutestory of how he grew and for me
it's a lot more painful and alot uglier, and that's like they
are still friends, like she'sstill, you know, happy to work
with him and you know, beinterviewed with him and stuff

(54:34):
like that.
But part of what makes thisdocumentary so powerful is it
shows the multiple realitiesthat can exist within one thing.

Speaker 2 (54:45):
It's really interesting too, and a lot of
the things that we have talkedabout on Deep Thoughts, about
the ways in which emotionallabor becomes invisible to the
people for whom it is being done, I I think that this is like
another data point in that truththat we have named here.
On Deep Thoughts, you know,where Smith isn't fully aware,

(55:08):
hasn't fully metabolized thework, the labor that Adams did
for him and the suffering thatshe therefore experienced
because of the labor that shewas needing to do for him and
not having it done, not havingit reciprocated.
And so I think that's a really,it's a really fascinating sort

(55:33):
of echo from like what you'rethe story that you're telling me
about Ch amy, it's a reallyfast.
It like rhymes, right like the,the meta and the, the micro and
the macro kind of rhyme in inwhat happened between alissa and
holden and what happenedbetween adams and smith, which

(55:56):
makes sense, since they wereself insert or inserts or
inserts of of the actual, theactors, the characters were
actor inserts and also like Idon't know, there's something
true in my head about that andand I love that this young

(56:17):
filmmaker was able to love thatthis young filmmaker was able to
show that and and like not andfeel it too Like I just had to
grow up a lot in the last houris a really powerful thing to
hear from this young person youknow about this movie it's it's
hard to.
It's hard to see the dirty, youknow, hard to.

(56:42):
It's hard to see the dirty, youknow, underside of something
that you loved and also like soimportant in order to actually
interact with the world and makebetter choices.
So I don't know, there'ssomething that's like just feels
alive to me in that.
I'm really glad that you sharedthat piece of of what you
learned.

Speaker 1 (56:56):
What?
Where I was left at the end ofthe documentary was feeling like
.
Kevin Smith is a reflectivesweet, well-meaning and a little
oblivious.

Speaker 2 (57:13):
Totally.
I mean, that's how privilegeworks.

Speaker 1 (57:16):
Yeah, and he's trying , he's really trying.
That's how privilege works.
Yeah, and like he's trying,he's really trying.
But you know, even like JoyLauren Adams didn't say all of
that in front of Smith.
Right.

Speaker 2 (57:28):
Presumably he's seen it now.
Yes and I.

Speaker 1 (57:31):
I.
I suspect that like this willbecome, because he's someone who
, who, who does grow and change,like it's very clear that he
has spent time thinking aboutthese things and trying to be a
better person.
And like my spouse was in theroom while I was watching, like
he wasn't specifically watchingwith me but, um, and like
afterwards we were talking alittle bit about the documentary
and I was saying like I reallywant, like I would love to sit

(57:55):
down and have a drink with KevinSmith.
He seems like he would be agreat person to sit down and
talk to, but I really want totalk to Joy Lauren Adams,
because fewer people want to dothat.
And like I kind of want to takeon some of the stories that she
has had to carry.
Yeah, and you know, it's just,she is carrying a lot of pain

(58:21):
that people don't care about,and that gets into the part of
like the criticism of the filmas well, which is like it's a
straight white man's way intounderstanding the queer
community, because it's from thepoint of view of Holden queer

(58:42):
community, because it's from thepoint of view of Holden, and
like there's something very goodand honest about it for that
reason, because it's about howKevin Smith went through that
experience in terms of seeingyou know women fully as people,
and also in seeing like thequeer community and and like
recognizing his own biases andprejudices and things like that

(59:03):
and homophobia.
And if we had real queerrepresentation, that would be no
problem whatsoever.
Like this this story is, is isone story that's, you know,
deserves to be told because itcan help people and it is honest
and truthful and real.

(59:25):
And stories of growth arealways, I think, useful.
The problem is we don't havequeer representation, so all we
get is how it affects a whiteguy.

Speaker 2 (59:36):
Well, especially in 97.
Yeah, Especially in 97.
I feel like we do have a lotmore now than we did then, like
these, however many years, 30years later, but in 97 we didn't
at all.
Yeah, all right.
Well, we've been talking for aminute.

(59:56):
Any other like core, likeinsights or analysis that you
want to share?
Before I try and synthesize?

Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
is.
There is a point where Hooperis not exactly complaining but
talking about how it'sconsidered kind of cute for
women to be lesbians.
And, specifically, joy LaurenAdams is Alyssa because she is,
you know, thin blonde, you know,wears makeup.
And he talks about like I'm themarginalized of the

(01:00:47):
marginalized in the marginalizedbecause he's a black gay man.
And so there is something veryinteresting there, particularly
in the late nineties, when theidea of women having sex with
other women was very muchfetishized.
You probably remember, like youknow, madonna kissing, like, I

(01:01:08):
think, britney Spears on MTV andlike it was a thing.
And it's clear that Hooper's notmad at Alyssa.
He's just like you know who'ssupporting my ass, lissa.
He's just like you know who'ssupporting my ass.
It's like he just recognizingthe intersectionality of these
various marginalizations and howthat can be tough.
That moment is actually very,very progressive, even in 2025,

(01:01:35):
watching this film, becausehooper makes it clear that this
is like he's frustrated, but notat his friend.
He's frustrated at the systemsthat are causing this to happen.
He's frustrated about the factthat he doesn't feel any kind of
support from anyone becausehe's marginalized, you know in

(01:01:59):
multiple ways.
So like that's something thatKevin Smith really got right and
I feel like we can see thatagain in the Chasing, chasing
Amy documentary in his reactionto Sav coming out to him, you
know, is like hey, I recognize,like this is tough and like I'm
here to support you in any way Ican.

(01:02:20):
So that that, I think, isreally important to kind of lift
up.
The other thing is thatalthough characters slut shame
Alyssa, the movie does not.
The movie makes it clear thatHolden is wrong for being

(01:02:42):
weirded out about this and itmakes it clear that Alyssa is
absolutely right in saying likethese are my choices and they're
mine.

Speaker 2 (01:02:52):
And it's none of your business and you have nothing
to say about it.
Yeah, I'm not going toapologize All those things and
I'm not going to apologize andI'm not your whore, yeah, so
we're done.

Speaker 1 (01:02:57):
We're done going to apologize, all those things.
I'm not going to apologize andI'm not your whore, yeah, so you
know, we're done.
We're done here.
That is something else that Ithink is, for 1997, really
progressive, because even in2025 I'm not sure that a film
would be able to have that be apart of a character's past

(01:03:17):
without the film in some wayShaming her for it, yeah, and
like I really appreciate that,because we don't get enough of
that, that's you knowpromiscuity is anything other

(01:03:50):
than like something to judge.

Speaker 2 (01:03:54):
It's just like.
It's just who she is, he's midright, like the ways in which he
is just fucking basic and likewants to do better and and in
that sense like it's.
It's raw and true and real andalso like, especially in 97,
like it kind of sucks that wehad to sort of think about

(01:04:19):
queerness from the POV of astraight white cis, basic dude.
I heard some really interestingthings about this female
character of Alyssa, reallyinteresting things about this

(01:04:44):
female character in of Alyssawho is just who she is, does a
great job of defending herboundaries and her worth and
sort of saying like no, youdon't get to do that, you don't
get to do that and leaving andlike right on at the same time,
like the character and theactress ended up doing a whole
bunch of emotional labor thatwas completely unrecognized, in

(01:05:07):
both the fictional and thenon-fictional realms, by the
person for whom the labor wasbeing done.
Unintentionally.
Smith is telling a story aboutbi erasure in Alyssa and as a
result of that reality, this wasvery confusing to a young

(01:05:29):
neurodivergent, emily, whenAlyssa is like I'm gay, I'm gay,
I'm gay, and then all of asudden she's putting her tongue
into Ben Affleck's mouth orHolden's mouth, holden's mouth,
so which I think is a part ofthe bi erasure.
I also wonder I asked thequestion and I'm not sure that
we had a full answer aboutwhether or not there was subtext

(01:05:51):
that you missed because of yourneurodivergence, or if it was
missing because there's acertain degree, to which sort of
the lesbian who like realizesshe wants at least this dick.
There's a certain wishfulfillment in that, and since
Holden is a Kevin Smith like,self-insert, like, was the

(01:06:11):
subtext actually there?

Speaker 1 (01:06:14):
There is one glorious moment in the documentary where
Sav is interviewing I don'tremember what the expertise this
person had, but a trans womanabout the film.
And Sav is saying I used toresonate with Holden, but he's
got that awful goatee and hewears two big flannel and jeans

(01:06:38):
that don't fit.
And the trans woman says nowonder the lesbian went for him.
And Sav says well, that's goingin the documentary.
Well, I mean, that's why the,the mid guy so let me see.

Speaker 2 (01:07:06):
I think at the end we spent some time talking about
the fact that, though charactersattempt to slut shame alissa
for some of her past sexualexploits, the film never does
which we really appreciate.
It does pass bechdel, sothere's some great banter, which
is cool, and also, like, comeon Alyssa, there are bantery

(01:07:28):
lesbians and I mean, like, mytakeaway about the film this is
not exactly analysis is that,like Alyssa is a badass and
Holden is never good enough forher.
Another sort of piece of thatis that ultimately, like the
film knows that, which is kindof cool and which is why it's
not in fact a romance or aromantic comedy, because they do

(01:07:50):
not end up together, becausehe's not good enough for her and
sort of what he does is likeyou can't come back from it, and
I think the genre would ask usto come back from it and see her
forgive him in some way if ithad not been an independent film
, they might have they mighthave made that ended it
differently.
Yeah, but actually the, the sortof no, she doesn't, we don't,

(01:08:14):
we don't force her to conform,which is her thing, like that's
her manifesto is that shedoesn't conform, so so that's,
that's pretty cool.
And then the extra layer thatyou brought in with this
documentary that you saw fromthe filmmaker, saf Rogers, who
found solace in this film and Inamed it as, like Alyssa kind of

(01:08:38):
a of the character being a rolemodel of someone who doesn't
allow themselves to be forced tobe limited based on others or
even her own kind of arbitrary,limiting beliefs, which, for a
preteen queer kid in Kansaswho's being bullied, was

(01:08:58):
literally lifesaving.
It sounds like also to have hadthat experience with this.
You know, a piece of media thatchanges your life in that way,
and then to have the opportunityto make a movie about it and to
grow up about it because of theintervention of the actress,

(01:09:23):
joy lauren adams, yeah, sayingyeah, I'm, I'm glad I did it and
I'm glad it helped you, but itwas not a good experience for me
, and here's all the terriblethings that happened and here's
why being an actress has beennot a bed of roses and, like the
, you know, putting it in thecontext of what we know now

(01:09:46):
about Harvey Weinstein and theabuse that was just the way he
did business, is really reallypowerful and, I think, important
, especially for this young andqueer filmmaker.
So that was a really cool pieceof it and that like the kind of

(01:10:08):
rhymes of that, the echoes ofthat up and down in sort of
concentric circles from the film, are really interesting.
Like you named, the moment whenHooper, the black gay character
who has to sort of put on atotal mask in order to sell he
has to live into a stereotypethat is not him in order to sell

(01:10:29):
his comic gives this speechabout being, you know, multiply,
marginalized, and sort of showslike the concept of
intersectionality, which I'm notsure if it had even been coined
yet by Kimberly Crenshaw in 97.
It may have been, I just don'tknow but.
But that sort of like seeingthe ways in which the systems

(01:10:53):
kind of multiply, marginalized,and having the character know
who to be mad at, which is thesystems and not his friend, who
is marginalized differently, whois sort of whose nonstandard
sexual orientation is fetishizedand is deemed as cute and not

(01:11:16):
threatening and not threatening.
So that's really reallyinteresting that you brought in
that, I think, kind of echoes upand down the layers of
storytelling that we're seeing,from the movie Chasing Amy to
the documentary that Sav Rogersmade about the effect of the
movie on his life, to sort ofthe story that came out as a

(01:11:39):
result of the documentary ofwhat was happening in the
actor's lives to you know, evenlike the kind of meta story of
what was happening in theentertainment industry with
Harvey Weinstein.
So that was a really kind ofcool like layered effect of of
that reality.

(01:12:00):
That that was reallyinteresting.
We talked about more.
Is there what, what, what?
Did I not say that you want tomake sure we kind of reiterate?

Speaker 1 (01:12:08):
I think the the both end aspect of like Kevin Smith
in this film and then also KevinSmith as, as as a director and
a person like, is clearlylearning and growing and his
privilege protects him fromgrowing as much as I think he
might want to.
I think he probably was when hesaw Sav's documentary he was

(01:12:30):
probably horrified to see whatJoey had to say, because she's a
friend Like and he there's a.
What Holden says to hercharacter is like I have been
profoundly changed by loving youand I can't ever regret that.
And Kevin Smith says like.
That is how he felt, so likethat.

(01:12:53):
That is another aspect of itthat I wasn't expecting.
Like I've known he's, he seemslike a pretty nice guy, like
that's.
That's what I've known aboutKevin Smith, but haven't really
seen much of it of of anythingelse.
Like I've I've known he likelikes to mentor young, young
filmmakers and things like that.
But you know, don't really knowmuch about him.
But this documentary made itclear to me that he has growth

(01:13:14):
to do still and he is welcome,welcoming it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:17):
He is open to it, and what is difficult for him
probably is partially hisprivilege, and then also letting
go of his insecurities that hestill probably has, you know,
all these years later in thefilm like he thought of himself
as a progressive guy and thensomething that triggered his

(01:13:40):
insecurity and it triggered itand and and it was like sort of
that surprise that he wasn't askind of with it as he thought he
was.

Speaker 1 (01:13:52):
That really like rang true to me yeah, in like my
experience of people and myselfeven Well, and that's, that's
even a little bit like whathappens with Sav, with the
interview with, with, with Adams.

Speaker 2 (01:14:06):
Right Sav thought that he understood what was
problematic about the movie.
Yes, and there was a wholelayer that he was completely
unaware of.

Speaker 1 (01:14:14):
And Sav, he wears this jean jacket.
It's got patches on it and apatch along the back says
feminist, and so like the factthat that was something like
when he knew about theallegations against Harvey
Weinstein.
He knew all of those things andthat it hadn't occurred to him.

Speaker 2 (01:14:36):
That would have affected.

Speaker 1 (01:14:37):
Joey, that would have affected Joy Lauren Adams and,
like you know and was part ofmaking this film that was so
profoundly positive on his life.
So like you know that thathappens.
Like you think you know what'sgoing on and then you're hit
with something and you realizelike, oh, I don't know if I can
handle this.
You know, listeners, I reallyhighly recommend it's on Amazon

(01:15:00):
Prime.
You can rent it on Amazon Prime.
But Chasing, chasing Amy by SavRogers had me in tears multiple
times.
It's lovely.

Speaker 2 (01:15:08):
I mean just you telling me about it made me
choke up.
So, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:15:12):
It's just an amazing documentary and I see great
things for Sav Rogers comingforward.
Cool, cool.

Speaker 2 (01:15:20):
Well, that was really interesting.
It was not at all the movie Ithought that we were going to be
talking about, so that's prettycool.
So next week next week I amgoing to revisit Dead Again.
Do you remember that one withKevin Branagh and Emma Thompson?
Kenneth Branagh, did I sayKevin?
I said Kevin because of KevinSmith.
Kenneth Branagh Thank you forcorrecting me yeah, kenneth
Prada and Emma Thompson whenthey were still together.

(01:15:43):
Oh, yeah, yeah, I, I loved thatmovie so much and I haven't
seen it in a long time, so I'mlooking forward to watching it
again, curious to see if it'sstill good yeah, I'm curious.
So well, next time, listeners,you will find out.
Next time, do you?
You will find out Next timequantity.

(01:16:21):
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?

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