March 25, 2025 • 59 mins
I talk to God all the time, and no offense, but He never mentioned you.
On this week’s episode, Tracie traces some of her earliest ideas about romance to the 1985 Richard Donner film Ladyhawke. Although both contemporary and retrospective reviews are scornful of the anachronistic, Alan Parsons-produced, synthesizer-heavy soundtrack (so unrealistic in a film about a woman cursed to live as a hawk during the day!), Tracie and Emily are more interested in why the film takes away the leading lady’s agency when it otherwise gets a lot right about equitable romantic relationships.
If you are neither flesh nor spirit but sorrow, listen and laugh along with the Guy girls.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
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We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We've got this reciprocity.
We've got this sense that theygenuinely love one another and
they take care of one another,even though they only have like
split seconds when they're bothhuman each day and they're not
always in the same space.
When that happens to Navar,completely taking her agency
from her, in that moment, I meanhe's doing it for, I guess,
(00:29):
like the right reasons I'mputting quotes around that
Because he thinks he's doing itfor her benefit and for her best
interest.
But like I'm sorry, fuck that.
She's an adult, she's a human Imean a hawk human but still,
have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's just
pop culture, what others mightdeem stupid shit?
(00:52):
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts About
Stupid Shit, because popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
(01:13):
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1985 Richard Donner filmLadyhawk with my sister, emily
Guy-Burken, and with you.
Let's dive in.
All right, em.
I know you saw this because wesaw it together probably
multiple times when we wereyoungins, when it was new.
What do you remember about Lady?
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Hawk.
So I remember MatthewBroderick's haircut and learning
that they made it to look likekind of like an old-timey monk
tonsure and by old-timey, like14th century.
And then I learned later onthat it's not possible without
like modern clippers Modernclippers which actually I think
will come up later in ourconversation.
So I remember that.
(01:55):
I remember dad pointing out tous there's a point where he
steals someone's purse bycutting the strings and he's
like that's where the word cutpurse comes from and I remember
thinking that was super cool.
So I remember that.
Rutger Hauer and MichellePfeiffer I remember her name is
(02:16):
Isabeau, because I thought thatwas a beautiful name and it was
around when I started being aFrancophile and they're cursed
by a bishop or something she isa hawk by day and a woman at
night, and he is a wolf at nightand a man by day, and they are
(02:40):
very deeply in love andthey're're together but they
can't, they're not actuallytogether because there is no way
for them to like.
I remember there's a scene likejust as the sun sets or rises,
one of those where, like they'retransitioning for just a second
, they get to see each other ashuman beings and there is an
(03:01):
eclipse at the end, which whichis how the curse is broken.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
So those are my Damn.
You remember a lot.
I don't even have to do asynopsis.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Okay, Apparently this is a well-remembered film.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Yeah, you remember a lot.
All those things are accurate.
So tell me, why are we talkingabout this today?
You remember more than I did.
I did not remember the cutpurse thing, although there were
things that while I wasrewatching I was like oh yeah,
oh yeah.
But yeah, I loved this moviewhen we were kids.
I loved it, and so my last leadI looked at SpongeBob,
(03:39):
squarepants.
So I wanted to go back furtherand so I was trying to think of
something that was.
You know, I've been looking atromance a little bit lately and
I think that, you know, afterthe little detour of SpongeBob,
I wanted to go back and look atromance again and sort of see
what's in there, because I justdidn't remember I certainly
don't remember the way that youdid.
(03:59):
Some of the things that I'mgoing to bring to you are about
gender, but specifically genderin romance, and also like the
way that Pfeiffer embodiesIsabeau and like kind of how she
shows up there it's better thanI thought it might be.
I'll say it that way.
Like she very easily could justbe a trophy and I think she is
(04:23):
a more fully formed characterthan that, which is a testament
to Donner and to thescreenwriter and also to
Pfeiffer.
I think she really did a greatjob.
I mean the woman's gorgeous, Imean like, and her presence in
this film, like her gorgeousness, like she's gorgeous no matter
what she does, but in this filmin particular, like it is a plot
(04:43):
point, but it also is justthere for anyone to see just
real quick.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
You said donner just wanted to.
I don't think we we've said ohsorry, thank you.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Richard donner directed this film and I did
open with that way and uh andhe's, uh.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
He's a friend of the show because we've already
talked about his film supermanthe movie.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
We talked about superman the movie.
We talked about the toy.
We talked about go film,superman the movie.
So we talked about Superman themovie.
We talked about the toy.
We talked about Goonies.
Yes, those are all RichardDonner films.
Yeah, so I believe this is ourfourth Richard Donner film.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
So he like I didn't know this, but he basically
directed a lot of our childhoodTotally.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Yeah, yeah.
So I want to talk about genderand specifically gender and
romance.
To talk about gender andspecifically gender and romance
because there are, there areways in which, despite the fact
that they are not actuallytogether in human form, there is
reciprocity between these two,and there are ways in which
there is not.
So I would like to talk aboutthat and sort of what that
separation and the romance ofthat separation did to little
(05:40):
like baby cooking brains of ours.
I also want to talk about theactual craft of the film.
The film gets a lot of flackfrom people who are like well,
so the music is like AlanParsons produced, as in the Alan
Parsons project, and he's notthe one who wrote the score,
(06:01):
somebody else did.
But it's super synthesizerheavy, it's very 1980s.
So there's a lot of folks whokind of really give it a hard
time for having this so-calledanachronistic music for this
movie that is set in the 14thcentury.
Broderick's performance.
Broderick plays basically thenarrator and he's the character
(06:24):
who is the bridge between thesetwo people who can never
actually be together.
And this is before FerrisBueller's day off, but it's sort
of like he's getting ready forFerris Bueller.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
It's Ferris Bueller's 14th century.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, it kind of is he has this running monologue
with God.
I mean he's talking directly toGod, so it's not a direct
camera address in the way thatBueller is, but it is sort of
like it does feel like a 14thcentury John Hughes movie
sometimes.
So people find that bothersomesomehow as well.
(07:00):
I actually think it's cool andit works and it's kind of like
none of it is realistic.
So why would I like thesepeople turn into animals like?
Why do I care that there'ssynthesizer music?
You know it's also the case thatit is shot in Italy, I believe
the like Donner's, like thecinematography is really
(07:23):
gorgeous.
The actual landscape feels muchbigger than this goofy 80s
fantasy romance.
So all of that together to mejust works as a whole package.
But I want to kind of unpacksome of that.
But before I do I'm going togive a little bit more of a
synopsis than you gave from yourmemory.
But I actually am going to relyon Wikipedia to try and get it
(07:46):
done relatively quickly andconcisely if I can.
So thank you to Wikipediaeditors here.
I've heard that one before, Iknow.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
I know We'll see if I can do it.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
We'll see if I can do it.
So I am reading from WikipediaIn medieval Italy it says Italy
I think it's supposed to beFrance.
It's Frank Italy.
It says Italy I think it'ssupposed to be France.
It's Frank-Italy, it'sItaly-Frankia, it's Europe.
Philippe Gaston, a thief knownas the Mouse, is captured and
sentenced to death but escapesfrom the Bishop of Aquila's
(08:16):
dungeons through the sewers.
He is apprehended at an inn byCaptain Marquet and the bishop's
guards.
Former captain Etienne Navarrearrives on the scene and he and
his pet hawk attack the guardsand then escape with Philippe.
Navarre and Philippe ask forlodging at a farmer's barn At
dusk.
The farmer ambushes Philippewith an axe but is killed by an
(08:38):
enormous black wolf.
Philippe runs back to the barnto get Navarre's help, but
instead finds a beautiful youngwoman dressed in Navarre's cloak
, who calmly approaches the wolfand walks into the woods with
it.
The next day Navarre reveals heneeds Philippe as a part of a
plan to kill the evil Bishop ofAquila.
Philippe refuses, so Navarreties him to a tree.
(08:58):
That night the young womanreappears and Philippe tricks
her into cutting his bonds.
He flees but is recaptured byMarquet and the guards, who
learn Navarre's location fromhim.
Navarre once again fights offMarquet and his men to free
Philippe.
In the process, his hawk isshot with an arrow, Traveling
slowly due to injuries of hisown.
(09:20):
Navarre orders Philippe to goon ahead of him and take the
hawk to the castle of an's, likea ruined castle of an old monk
named Imperius.
Philippe obeys and Imperiussequesters the hawk in a locked
room.
Philippe picks the lock anddiscovers the young woman now
with an arrow protruding fromher chest.
Ah, your suspicions areconfirmed.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
I remember the monk saying like I have a hawk from
Navarre and he's like, oh, thenwe shall feast.
He's like, no, no, no, no, it'shis hawk.
And the monk's like, oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Yeah, okay.
After Imperius treats herwounds, he explains to Philippe
that the woman is Isabeau ofAnjou, who once refused the
bishop's unwelcome advances.
After learning from a drunkenimperious that Navarre and
Isabeau were married, the bishopcalled down a satanic curse
(10:15):
upon them, dooming them to bequote always together, yet
eternally apart.
That's what Philippe says aboutit when he hears the story.
Navarre therefore takes theshape of a wolf each night,
while Isabeau becomes a hawk byday.
The bishop guards attack thecastle shortly before daybreak,
but the sunrise turns Isabeauback into a hawk, allowing her
to fly to safety.
She's actually like falling,like as Michelle Pfeiffer
(10:37):
falling from the top of thetower and like just as the sun
hits her, like she, like,narrowly escapes.
Navarre catches up to thecastle and dispatches the last
of the guards.
Imperius tells him that thecurse can be broken if the
couple can both face the bishopas humans on a day without night
and a night without day.
Within three days' time,navarre dismisses Imperius as an
old drunk and continues his wayto Aquila, intent on simply
(11:00):
killing the bishop.
For revenge, philippevolunteers to join Navarre and
Lady Hawk.
That's what he has.
Philippe has nicknamed the hawkand bids Imperius to follow
them.
After the group survives anencounter with the bishop's
hired wolf trapper, cesar, andseveral other adventures,
philippe finally convincesNavarre to try to break the
curse before killing the bishop.
(11:21):
When the group arrives at Aquila, navarre, seeing no divine
signs in the sky, once againdecides to kill the bishop and
orders Imperius to euthanize theIssa Bohawk if the church bells
ring, as would signal Navarre'sfailure.
Philippe, having snuck backinto Aquila through the sewers
the way he had escaped it,infiltrates the cathedral and
unlocks its doors.
Navarre rides in and duels withMarquette.
(11:42):
It's not a duel, it's a um.
What's it called when they runat each other on horses?
Oh, joust, yeah, yeah, yeah,it's a joust.
Like in the cathedral, like themass worshipers are all just
like around the sides Likethey're jousting.
Thank, you.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
That's one of the official sports of Maryland.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Okay, during the fight, marquette, the current
captain of the guard, tosses hishelmet up and through this
roundel window, and through thebroken window we see a solar
eclipse.
So Navarre realizes thatImperius was right, but he fails
to stop the bishop's men fromringing the bell.
So he thinks Aesau is dead andin fact we see Imperius holding
(12:24):
the hawk.
She's got like the hawk, hasthe hood on that like covers its
eyes, and he's holding a knifeand he says may God forgive me.
So we viewers are meant tothink she's dead too.
So Navarro, excuse me, navar isabout to kill the bishop.
And the bishop says ah, but ifyou kill me, the curse will
never be broken.
What about Isabeau?
And he says Isabeau is dead.
(12:45):
And then behind him he hearsher voice, navarre.
So then he realizes that he canbreak the curse.
So he forces the bishop to lookat her and then look at him,
and then look at us.
And then Imperius, it's over,it's broken.
(13:06):
Navar turns to approach isaboand the bishop says the line
that we hear in so many moviesif I can't have her, no man
shall.
And he's like about to like ramhis.
He's got like a sharp point onhis bishop's staff and he's
gonna, like you know, as onedoes.
(13:28):
So he's gonna I mean, he alsomade a deal with the devil, so
so he's gonna stab navar.
But somebody warns him I don'tremember who and so navar turns
around and like throws his longsword and, like it flies through
the air, impales the on the Idon't know what it's called like
a piece of A churchy thing.
(13:48):
A churchy thing, yeah, and thenwe're nice Jewish girls.
Yeah, it's like a churchywooden thing, like a panel, a
wooden churchy panel thing, it'spart of the bima.
It's got a cross on it.
Yeah, it's the cross panelthing on the bima.
It's got a cross on it.
Yeah, it's the cross panelthing on the bima.
(14:08):
So so we watch him die and thenthe lovers embrace and he picks
her up and she's laughing andhe's like you cut your hair and
like all the people who are inthe cathedral room are just sort
of watching.
And then there's like a navarcalls imperious and philippe
over and the four of them kindof hug.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
And Navar doesn't Imperius like kiss Philippe or
something, or like they?
Speaker 1 (14:30):
well, when they are watching the two of, like the
whole thing go down like theykiss, they kiss not romantically
but no like thank goodness,sweetly, yeah, yeah, well, and
like, and Philippe's like crying.
Yes, philippe is actively crying, we see, we see tears running
down Matthew Broderick's faceand then the four of them
together.
More kisses are exchanged,navar kisses, philippe first and
(14:51):
then Isabeau does too.
So, yay, happy ending, yeah.
So a couple of key moments thatWikipedia didn't name that I
want to name in terms of likepieces of dialogue that kind of
stuck with me, that I thinkappealed to me as a child.
The first one is fairly early on, marquis is telling the bishop
(15:13):
that Maus has escaped and no onehas ever escaped from the
dungeons of Aquila before and hewas just a petty thief.
So like it's not a big deal,like they got much worse
criminals down there.
And the bishop is like, no, noone escapes, you need to find
him.
It's like it's not a big deal,like they got much worse
criminals down there.
And the bishop is like, no, noone escapes, you need to find
him.
It's like the kind of power.
And Marquis is like I mean, allright, but it would take a
miracle for him to have survivedwith the way that he like
(15:35):
because he went through thesewers.
And the bishop says I believein miracles, captain, it's a
part of my job.
I believe in miracles, captain.
It's a part of my job which Ifind like, as an adult, I find
absolutely ridiculous andhilarious and like beautiful,
and I think as a kid I probably,like unironically, loved it.
(15:56):
Oh God, yes, yeah.
Another was the one thatWikipedia does name, although it
doesn't credit him, which islike when Philippe first hears
the story, he says somethinglike always together, eternally
apart, him.
Which is like when philippefirst hears the story, he says
something like always together,eternally apart.
Which is like like,unironically, when I was like
came in now like wow, wow.
And the other one in the samevein is philippe, is is like
(16:19):
really like weirded out as oneis, when the hawk that they were
minding turns into a beautifulwoman and so he's, he's looking
at her, she's got this crossbowbolt sticking up out of her like
chest shoulder area, and he'slike what are you?
Are you?
Are you flesh or are you spirit?
And she says she like looks athim and then kind of looks away
(16:41):
and says I am sorrow.
And the thing is like,certainly in 85, I believed her.
Oh God, yes, even in 2025, Iwas like oh.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
It takes someone of the caliber of michelle pfeiffer
to sell that she really did too.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
I mean, anyway, I am sorrow.
The last one that I rememberedwhile I was telling the the I am
sorrow one is so philippe'stalking to god the whole time
and he's making deals with godand it's it's actually, I think,
pretty funny so because, like,while he's like escaping with
God, and it's actually, I think,pretty funny, because while
he's escaping, he promises Godhe'll never pick another pocket
for as long as he lives.
(17:30):
And before he's even fully outof Aquila, he cuts that purse
that you remember and he says toGod I know I told you I
wouldn't do this, but I know,you know what a weak-willed
person I am, but I know, youknow what a weak-willed person I
am.
And then at the end, as he'ssneaking back into the dungeons,
(17:50):
he says I wonder if this iswhat your plan was all along.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
I have to say it would reflect well on you.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
He says to God, which , again, like I don't know, I
just found pretty delightful.
So anyway, those are just acouple of, like specific
dialogue pieces that I wanted toname before I get too far into
analysis.
So all done.
So let me start with gender.
So this film doesn't even passthe first question of the
Bechdel test.
(18:22):
Isabel is the only named femalecharacter.
There are a couple of otherwomen who appear on screen, like
the farmer that they stay withthat first night that Philippe
is with Navarre has a wife orsister or something, A woman who
lives with him, yeah, but sheis an extra.
(18:42):
And then at one point we see inhis garden, we see women sort
of dancing for the bishop, again, completely extras.
So she is the only named womanand we are meant to know that
she is extraordinary in everyway.
We're meant to know that inpart because of the way the
(19:04):
other characters treat her, inpart because, you know, they
cast michelle pfeiffer in 1985,so she was like at the height of
her magnificence by societalstandards and like, even as a
hawk.
Somehow we like feel herpresence.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
I don't know, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
So it doesn't pass Bechdel, it doesn't even pass
the first Bechdel question andin many ways so, as I said, like
in some ways, that there is areciprocity about this love that
we are meant to believe.
So he, navar, etienne Navar,cares for her, you know, when
she's a hawk, and he also, as awolf, protects her.
(19:45):
We see the wolf protect her,but there are ways in which she
also cares for and protects him.
So in a very early scene, thehawk like startles and kind of
attacks some of the attackers,the would-be attackers of the
bishop's guard, and helps themget away.
And as a woman, we see herprotect the wolf as well.
(20:10):
And in fact, in a very key scene, near the end, they've
convinced Imperius, believes, hethinks I don't know if he knows
the eclipse is coming, but heknows that God spoke to him and
he knows that they can breakthis curse if they can keep
Navarre from screwing it up bykilling the bishop too soon.
And so Imperius and Philippeconvince Isabeau that they
(20:33):
should do this, and so they'regoing to trap him as a wolf to
keep him from going to kill thebishop too soon.
And they try to lure him into atrap, but he crosses across ice
to get to her and falls throughthe ice and she like risks
everything to try and save himwhile he's in the water.
In the end, philippe actuallygets him up out of the water and
gets all scratched up.
(20:53):
And that's when navar sees the,the scratches on his chest the
next day.
That's how he changes his planand decides to go along with
them.
There's another moment where thewikipedia named that the bishop
had hired this like wolf hunterand isabel and philippe see the
pelt and she takes the horsenavar's horse and goes off in
(21:13):
the woods to try and find thistrapper to protect, to protect
navar, and in the end she likeends up killing the.
I mean he kind of kills himself, but she, she helps the trapper
get killed in his own wolf traplike a bear trap claw thing
that ends up on his head.
It's pretty gross so there's asense in which there is a
(21:37):
reciprocity in that way, which Ithink is actually kind of rare,
especially for a story set, youknow know, in the distant past.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Well, it's presented like kind of a fairy tale,
almost, yes, and so it would berare for a fairy tale, and if
you're like taking on thetrappings of fairy tales, you
often take on those kinds ofexpectations and rules too,
right.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
And then there's like two moments where it sort of
challenges in the reciprocitybut in interesting and in some
moments problematic, I don'tknow we can unpack it.
So one thing I actually didremember, that was one of the
scenes that was like oh, Iremember that when I rewatched
it was at one point Navar andphilippe are talking in the
(22:29):
morning and the hawk comesflying from a distance and navar
puts his arm up for her to landon his forearm and philippe is
kind of like stretching and thehawk lands on philippe's arm
like passes navarre to land onphilippe's arm and they're both
like um and like there's likeclear jealousy here.
(22:51):
And then there's like whathappened last night, and it's
the night after the killing thewolf trapper, and that's
actually the moment too when hesays when philippe says she's
the most amazing woman I've evermet, and yeah, I've had my
fantasies, but the truth is sheonly ever wants to talk about
you.
Whatever, it's unclear to me.
(23:11):
Philippe tells each of themthings that the other one said
that we, the viewer, did not seethem say.
It's unclear to me whether ornot we're meant to think he's
pulling a Cyrano and lying tolike strengthen the romance, or
if we just didn't see them saythose things.
It's unclear to me.
I, as a kid I think I thoughtthe first that he was lying it
(23:33):
was Cyrano, I think.
Probably I'm leaning toward thatwith this as well, cause
Philippe has like a looserelationship with the truth.
That's yeah, that's prettyclear, that's been made clear.
And when he does tell the truthhe says something to God about
having told the truth, yeah,yeah.
So I think there's like thatmoment of like jealousy.
(23:57):
But then it is in the end whenboth Navar and Isabelle kiss
philippe in sort of gratitude.
It's like there's there's thatmoment of jealousy, but it's
less about sort ofpossessiveness and and more
about like.
I mean he even says navar sayslike every moment that you spend
(24:20):
with her I'm, I'm jealous of,but not in the how dare you be
with my girlfriend, just like Ican't.
So there's something like alivefor me in that.
That feels a little bit morenuanced and interesting than the
sort of traditional genderroles and romance that I might
have expected from a fairy tale.
(24:42):
Yeah, yeah, and then this iswhere we always get At the end.
They've got this plan and, asWikipedia told us, navar doesn't
see the signs.
He tells Imperius, andWikipedia says euthanize.
(25:02):
He says, make it quick, quick,because I don't want to condemn
her to a half-life without me.
Nobody asked the hawk what shewanted, right, like it's not
even that.
I think that, like this, the,the film or the story shouldn't
(25:24):
be willing to take suicide, asyou know, as an option that one
of these characters might take,but surely she should be allowed
to choose it and not beeuthanized, as as wikipedia put
it, and like, thank god, likeimperious says.
Imperious says to navar I can'tdo it, I don't think I can do
it, and navar's like no, youhave to, because this is your
(25:47):
fault, because initiallyimperious was the one who, he
was the confessor to both ofthem and that's how the bishop
ended up finding out that theywere together.
So and we are meant to believehe's done it, like we see that
(26:07):
cut scene where he says may Godforgive me, and he's got the
hawk in his hand and a knife inthe other.
So we've got this reciprocity,we've got this sense that they
genuinely love one another andthey take care of one another,
even though they only haveseconds, when they're both human
each day and they're not alwaysin the same space.
When that happens and then we'remeant to like I guess I feel
(26:28):
like we are meant to besympathetic to navar, completely
taking her agency from her inthat moment.
I mean he's doing it for Iguess, like the right reasons,
I'm putting quotes around thatbecause he mean he's doing it
for I guess, like the rightreasons, I'm putting quotes
around that because he thinkshe's doing it for her benefit
and for her best interest.
But like I'm sorry, fuck that.
She's an adult, she's a human,I mean a hawk human, but still
(26:53):
now.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Is there any sense that he is aiming to protect her
from the bishop'slasciviousness or anything?
Not that that makes it okayeither?
Speaker 1 (27:05):
No, no, it's protecting her from a half-life
that she didn't choose, orsomething like that.
Yeah, no it's about.
Yeah, it's unacceptable, it'skind of ableist in a weird way.
Yeah, and I guess.
So I mean one, and he had hisown version of it, you know.
(27:29):
So one imagines that likethat's what he would want in the
, if the inverse were happening,except that, like again, let
her transform and then choose.
Yeah, yeah, so I, yeah, so thatthat one piece, like that one
plot point, which was essential.
Yeah, yeah, I was thinking likethey had to do that because
(27:52):
navar needed to think she wasgone, yeah, and that all hope
was lost so that he, or therewas nothing left for him but the
revenge that he came for in thefirst place.
Like we needed to have thatmoment so that we could have the
big reveal and the like verydramatic.
Look at her, you know.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
But it would have.
For the writer and Donner.
All it would have taken was onemoment of we're agreed.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Like yeah, yeah, yeah , yeah, yeah, I talked to her
about it.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
this is what she wants too.
Yeah, yeah, I told her yourplan.
She agreed.
And then, like even philippe,like checking with her, like is
this what you?
Want yes I don't know whateverwell, actually, I guess the
navarro and isabelle can'tactually speak no, they can't,
so they would have to agreethrough an intermediary,
intermediary or like I don'tknow, so they would have to
agree through an intermediaryThrough their intermediary, or
like I don't know if they'reable to write because it's the
14th century, that's not a partof the story.
(28:44):
Yeah, so like they would have toagree through an intermediary.
All they'd have to do is havesaid that they did.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Have said that they did, yeah that they did yeah,
yeah and like yeah would havetaken two seconds, yeah, yeah.
So that's there.
That's that's in there as partof the furniture of the mind.
The other thing, that's that's.
You know, I don't think I, I'mI'm certain I didn't catch in
1985, I just thought of it.
There's a moment where, afterphilippe has learned the whole
(29:16):
story, he's talking, talking toNavarre, and Navarre says do you
know that wolves and hawks bothmade for life?
He didn't even leave us that.
He didn't even leave us.
That.
Like they can't get it on intheir other forms, you know,
(29:40):
like their non-monogamy, likeher with a boy hawk and him with
a she-wolf.
They, they can't do thatbecause wolves and hawks made
for life.
I guess.
I guess that's what I'minterpreting what that's like.
Initially, when he first saidthey made it for life, I was
like oh, yeah, there's something.
And then he said yeah, and thenhe said the bishop didn't even
leave us.
That.
That is what that means, right?
Speaker 2 (30:01):
I can't think of any other right.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
I can't think of any other reason like why you would
say the bishop didn't leave us,that sorry, okay, all right, I'm
just thinking about, like hotlupine and hot, I don't know
what the, what the latin word behawkeye sex would be anyway.
(30:32):
Okay, so that's funny, so.
So that's that's basically whatI wanted to talk about.
On the romance piece of it, Iwill say that little baby Tracy
thought that this was just soromantic.
This being separated but beingtogether but not being able to
(30:54):
be together.
Separated but being togetherbut not being able to be
together, like that is like sodeep down in the like romance
DNA, like maybe from this movieor others like it, you know, but
like that idea that thisunrealized, requited but
unrealized longing as like somesort of model for true romance
(31:21):
is like deeply resonant and Idon't know if it's because of
this movie or this movie is justlike.
I think I things the bell.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
I would really like to dig into this a little bit,
just because I definitely feelthat as well, that mutual pining
.
It just lights something upinside of me and I have spent
time thinking about that,because that is not what a real
(31:51):
healthy relationship can ever beand in fact it's kind of toxic
to be in a situation like thatand like this film gives you
like an okay reason for it, likebecause it's outside of their
control, whereas, yeah,completely outside of their
control yeah whereas like a lotof the so you know, we talked
about x-files early on and likethey were kept apart for you,
(32:14):
you know Chris Carter's reasons.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Which removed their agency when it came to like and
there's like there are points atyou know, I have been reading
like long series where it's likewill they, won't they like book
series, and eventually I losemy patience because it's like
just freaking talk to each other, because it's trying to
(32:39):
recreate that mutual pining thatis so deeply satisfying and I
wish I understood why and sothat it can stretch it out to
five books.
But at some point adults needto talk about their feelings.
Adults need to to talk abouttheir feelings no, no, I won't.
(33:04):
So yeah, and so like there's,there's, uh like I can
definitely understand why thisfilm in particular lit you up,
because it's not stupid whythey're apart it you up, because
it's not stupid why they'reapart.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
It's magical.
It's magical and that that also, like that's another one of my,
one of the stars in myconstellation is the magical and
then and they can also do theloving things for each other.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
That is another thing that I find deeply satisfying,
while still mutually pining.
So I think there's a very goodreason why this lit us both up
as children, like why we bothreally love this.
I also think there's somethingvery human about being drawn to
these kinds of tragic lovestories because your spouse
(33:58):
leaves the toilet seat up andsocks on the floor and you know
you have bad breath in themorning and you know life is not
romantic yeah pining, piningand not being able to be
together that is romantic yeah,yeah, yeah, I bet you.
I think you're on to somethingfor sure so but it it is, it
(34:20):
does worry me.
We, before we started recording, I was saying like it worries
me because I like the pining somuch that I, we, our sister,
podcast, light bringers.
I talked about how like, uh,devastated.
Lucifer is my favorite luciferand at the very last episode
they gave a lot of fan servicewith like the two of them just
like hugging each other and likesnuggling it.
(34:42):
I'm like squirming withdiscomfort, like that's enough
now.
It's like I want them apart andlike in pain.
I'm like what is wrong with me?
Speaker 1 (34:55):
well, I think maybe what's wrong with you is
michelle pfeiffer saying I amsorrow because damn, she looked
good saying it yeah all right.
Well, I'm gonna move us on to myfinal bucket here.
(35:19):
So the final bucket is actuallya pullback away from the
content and looking at theactual form.
So this movie gets a lot of.
I read one commentator who saidI'm going to write about a cult
80s film, which is actually aredundant statement because
every 80s film is cult forsomebody.
So this one it does have a lotof people who love it, but a lot
(35:44):
of critics at the time andsince give it a really hard time
for so-called anachronisms,right.
So it's meant to be set in 14thcentury Franco-Italy and, like
I I said, the score is very 80slike it was pretty cutting edge
in 85.
I mean it was like damn damn, itis really.
(36:09):
And so people, people give it ahard time for that sort of
anachronistic music or so-called, and I mean it is.
But they also and then theygive a they.
And then they give Broderick'sperformance a hard time.
They say he was sort of doinghis Biloxi blues thing because
it was pre-Ferris Bueller andyou know he is.
But like, so, like it's, I findit now.
(36:34):
I loved it at the time and Iwas a child.
And looking back now as anadult, all these years later, I
find it now.
I loved it at the time and Iwas a child.
And looking back now as anadult, all these years later, as
you say, it's a fairy tale,right, it's a fantasy.
Like it's not a real place,it's not actually based on a
real fairy tale.
(36:54):
Like I think I read somewherethat there was like a sense that
it was kind of like based on anactual medieval tale.
It wasn't Like they let that belike the mythos around it,
because that, you know, thatsells movies.
But it was just some dude'sidea, you know.
Like the writer just was like,oh, this would be a cool story.
(37:16):
So he wrote the story and itwas made for 1980s american
audience.
You know so like already, likethey're all speaking english
well, and it's american actorsuh-huh, and they've got like
even like what's funny to melike broderick has just his
(37:37):
normal whatever accent throughmost of it, but then there are
moments where he has this kindof like Shakespearean stage
actor kind of an accentpresentation.
Yeah, I don't know if that wason meant to like if Mouse was
supposed to be doing that orBroderick forgot that he was
doing the accent.
You know what I mean.
I'm choosing to believe thatmouse was doing it, but I don't
(38:04):
know honestly.
Yeah and the like, if we, if westop trying to ask it to not be
what it isn't and just enjoywhat it is, I think the 80s
score really works.
I think the Biloxi bluestreatment of Philippe Gaston,
known as the mouse, really works.
(38:24):
Like he's a ridiculouscharacter.
Like in the very first momentwe meet him we're just seeing
like this, like mud and sewageand like fingers sticking
through, and he says nothing isimpossible, mouse.
And he's like pushing hisshoulder and head through this
like opening.
He says nothing is impossible,mouse.
And he's like pushing hisshoulder and head through this
like opening.
He says it's just like leavingmother's womb.
Now, that's a memory.
It's ridiculous.
(38:45):
And it's ridiculous from momentone.
And when the guards come to gethim.
His cellmate speaks in rhymeLike to ease the pain he went
down the drain.
It's just ridiculous and Ithink if we can just let it be
what it is like.
I feel like we put a lot ofpressure on things that claim to
(39:08):
be set in the Middle Ages tosomehow be like historically
accurate.
I'm putting quotes around thatbecause we don't actually know a
lot of things about the waythings were in medieval times,
and the things that we do knowlike I don't want to see on
screen.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
I don't want to see no bubonic plague, thank you.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Like I mean they make mention of the plague when,
like, the bishop calls the wolfhunter to come in, he's got all
these pellets and the bishop'slooking through them and he's
like, no, that's not it.
That's not it.
Like these are not the wolf I'mlooking for and the the hunter
is like, well, since the plague,there's more wolves than people
you know.
And like they mentionedcrusades and and saracen, like
(39:51):
it's like vaguely in ouruniverse but, also like kind of
like I don't know.
So I think there's somethingreally interesting that like and
you, before we hit record we'retalking about, like what it is
that as an, as audiences, we'rewilling to suspend our
disbeliefs about, and what we'renot, and so yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
I mentioned about the like kind of tonsure haircut
that Broderick has.
That is not possible with toolsat the time that this is
supposedly set.
But the thing is not a singleperson who complains about the
soundtrack says boo about hishaircut because his haircut fits
(40:33):
what we think that time lookslike, and so what we call
realistic is just what confirmsour preconceived notions about
history.
And so I mentioned before westarted recording, about the
Tiffany problem, which isTiffany is actually a very old
name and it was a relativelypopular name in the Middle Ages
(40:54):
and in English-speakingcountries.
But modern audiences read it,hear it, as a modern name, and
so if we had, if Isabel had beennamed Tiffany, people would
have been like what the hell isthis, even though it would have
been period appropriate.
So there's that tension of whatwe expect versus what actually
(41:20):
was.
And then there's the tension of, as you mentioned, what are we
willing to suspend our disbeliefabout.
Consistently, when you havefantasy stories that are set in
some kind of history, historicalperiod so I'm thinking
specifically Game of Thronespeople will say yes, yes,
dragons, yes, women giving birthto monsters, yes, yes, all of
(41:42):
that, and we'll say why doesthere have to be so much rape in
it.
They're like well, it'shistorically accurate.
And, to be honest, I even cansee this in some modern takes as
well.
I can remember our stepfathercomplaining about how they
changed the ending of PrettyWoman to be a happy ending
(42:04):
instead of the more realisticending where Julia Roberts'
character ends up strung out ondrugs at the end instead of it
being a happy Hollywood ending,and he'd be like it's just wrong
, it should be the realisticending.
I'm like why, like this isn'tbased on like a real person,
like you know?
Okay, I'm down with likegetting annoyed at them changing
(42:26):
like the story for a movie whenit is based on like historical
events actually happened.
But like why is that morerealistic?
But like, why is it more real?
And another moment that I likereally helped me with this, this
(42:49):
viewpoint is Roger Ebert, ourfriend, the movie A Knight's
Tale, which came out, I think,in around 2001.
I remember seeing it rightaround when I graduated from
college and the music.
There's a dance scene and I cannever remember which one's
diegetic and which one'snon-diegetic, but it's the music
that the characters can hear,not just what the audience can
hear Is, I believe.
(43:11):
I think it was a Queen song.
I think it was like Another OneBites the Dust, but I might be
misremembering but it wasdefinitely a 20th century song
and Ebert in his review talkedabout how, like, yeah, people
have a problem with that, butthe thing is, if we put the kind
of like Bach or classical musicthat you think of as
appropriate, it's stillanachronistic because it's 400
years too late, right, you know.
(43:32):
So what if it's you know, 600years too late, right, right.
So what if it's you know, 600years too late?
Right, right, we're making,we're creating an enjoyable
story that includes things likelike music and you and like the
thing is everybody's speakingmodern english, right, so why?
Why do there need to be rulesabout what the, what the
(43:54):
soundtrack sounds like?
If it works for the story, itworks.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
Yeah, it's really interesting the way like what,
as audiences, we're willing toaccept and what we're not.
So I think that's, and thismovie, I think with the
soundtrack, with Broderick'sperformance and dialogue, like
what's written for him, is sortof kind of tests, that.
And at the same time I think Imentioned before we started like
it's filmed, I think, in Italyor Ireland or I don't know some
(44:19):
beautiful sprawling country landand like some of the landscape
pieces behind this ridiculousfantasy like are gorgeous.
I mean, they're just reallygorgeous, like you expect them
in a much more serious film,mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
And so I think I find that veryinteresting that Donner and the
(44:43):
other filmmakers sort of tookthese gorgeous landscapes and
these big, big shots that belongin a different film, mm-hmm,
and this music that was reallyvery contemporary and very now,
and these actors who were verycontemporary and very now and
(45:05):
decided to sort of put it inthis story from then but it's
not really because it's notactually an old story Like I
find all of those tensions andall of those yes and yes and yes
ands to be very, veryinteresting.
And then what comes out on theother side, like I actually
really loved it, like I enjoyedwatching it both as a 9-year-old
(45:26):
and now as a 49-year-old.
I don't like thosecontradictions, don't bother me,
because I don't think they'recontradictions, because they're
all in service of this onelittle story and so I think
that's.
But I think it's an interestingthing to ask why for some of us
it's like okay, cool, whatevs,and for other people it's like I
mean, I was with you with thecurse, but Alan Parsons music no
(45:51):
.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
I draw the line at synthesizers yeah, yeah, kind of
it's.
I think it's also interestingto know, like who, who gets to
gatekeep this stuff?
Speaker 1 (46:03):
yeah, right, well, that's yeah, because that's
that's part of it.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
Yeah I do.
I I would like to, um, like,kind of ask you about one other
thing before sure, before youyou wrap up, before I wrap up.
So I find it really so.
It is kind of a fairy tale.
There's magic, but the magic isstill within the Christian
ethos.
Sure, because he's a bishop andhe like makes a deal with Satan
(46:27):
.
And so like I find it likefascinating that our narrator is
a faithful ne'er-do-well, likehe truly believes in God, truly
he's having these regularconversations with God and
similar the monk who is kind ofa screw-up, it sounds like too,
(46:49):
but also is truly faithful, andit's giving us this kind of like
dichotomy between the faith ofimperfect people and then, like
the greed of of those who are incharge, like the greedy faith
of those who are in charge.
I believe in miracles becauseit's my job.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
Yeah, yeah, no, and he's.
He has shown to have a lot ofpower, and, and, and, and he
wields it over people Like I ampower.
He doesn't say those words, buthe, he makes that very clear
yeah yeah, he makes that veryclear to marquet, who is the
captain, the guard, and toothers.
So, yes, I that's a veryinteresting point.
(47:33):
So we're we as an audience, aremeant to see sort of an
authentic faith of a thief andof a disgraced priest, and
that's where the authentic faithis, because imperious says god,
mm-hmm, anything, god's madeyou mad, so like he doesn't
believe.
So I think that's thank you forsort of lifting it up.
(48:06):
But there is definitely aninteresting like tension and
like the ultimate lessons aboutGod and faithfulness.
I mean, at one point Navar sayssomething about God as well and
Philippe says no offense, but Italk to God all the time and
he's never mentioned you.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
So, oh, my God, that is delightful, yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
What's interesting when you ask it that way, though
, is because this faithfulne'er-do-well, this faithful
thief who makes a promise to Godand almost immediately breaks
it while saying to God, you knowwhat a weak-willed person I am.
So there's definitely somethingvery interesting, and those are
the folks.
(48:51):
They get rewarded.
There was a beautiful sort ofsymmetry around Philippe's
escape and then re-entrance, and, in fact, that's why Navarre
picked him in the first place,because he's the only person who
ever escaped, and so he canhelp him get back in.
So, yeah, that's, I thinkthere's.
There's definitely lessons inthere about power and greed, and
even feminist ones to an extent.
(49:15):
About about the bishop's desireto control and own azebo that
he.
He had no right, not justbecause he was a bishop, but
then that need is reallyultimately, that desire to
control her, to own her, isultimately what caused him to
make a deal with the devil andthen die and we see him sort of
(49:39):
tortured by it.
We see him having fitfulnightmares, like nightmares and
things.
So I think, yeah, there'sdefinitely some.
Thank you for bringing that up.
There are definitely somelessons about faith and
cosmology and like it's alsoright living.
Speaker 2 (49:55):
yeah well, it's interesting because the, the,
the thief and the disgracedpriest are practicing like a
Christianity that expect thatthat forgives, and the Bishop is
clearly practicing one that hasno forgiveness.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
Well, and it's all about loyalty.
Yes, one way, loyalty, yes Tohim.
Speaker 2 (50:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:17):
There's also.
There is also something very,very clear about faith in love,
not just faith in God, but faithin love that imperious and
philly both have.
I mean that's why they'recrying like.
That's why they're crying andlike kissing one another at the
end is because they have so muchfaith in the love between these
two, these two people, and andthey want to see it get to the
point where he's leaving sockson the floor and she's got.
Yeah, well, they want to see itrealized and healthy.
(50:40):
And not not like just a moment,yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, let
me see if I can wrap this up.
So, 1985, richard Donner filmLadyhawk, we've got Rutger Hauer
and Michelle Pfeiffer andMatthew Broderick.
John Wood is the bishop Supercreepy, super creepy and Leo
(51:02):
McCurran is imperious.
So those are the key, keyactors and, honestly, they all
do a great job.
They're very, they're very fun.
This film does not pass eventhe first test of the bechdel
test, which asks us are there atleast two named female
characters?
Do they talk to one another?
Do they talk to one anotherabout something other than a man
or a boy?
The answer is no.
There's only one named femalecharacter, isebo, and she is
(51:28):
pretty amazing.
Not just beautiful, which ismade very plain I mean, it's
Michelle Pfeiffer and also inthe way the other characters
react to her, but also she isplayful, she's clearly smart,
she is bold, she is courageous.
We see all of these things.
She has this very big presenceand the love between her and
(51:50):
Navar, which I don't know why wenever call him by his first
name.
His name is Etienne.
She gets a first name, hedoesn't I don't know.
Anyway, the love between themis clearly real and reciprocal
and there is reciprocalcaregiving and reciprocal
guarding and protecting.
That is really kind of cool andunexpected.
I think we named it this thereciprocity between them feels
(52:13):
unexpected and rare in a fairytale, especially one set in the
Middle Ages.
Where we lose that reciprocityis in at the end, when Navarre
unilaterally decides that if hefails in his mission to break
the curse that Imperius shouldkill Isabeau in the hawk view
(52:38):
and, as you pointed out, itwould have been actually very
easy narratively to fix that andto have given Isabeau agency
and suggested that she hadagreed that death by suicide or
death at the hand of Imperiuswas better than a half-life.
We didn't get that.
He took that agency from her.
We also saw a moment that waskind of interesting in terms of
(53:01):
thinking about romance andgender roles in romance, where
the hawk lands on Philippe's armwhen we expected and he
expected it to land on Navarre's.
And so they have thisconversation actually about
jealousy, which is not thejealousy of possessiveness or
not precisely any way that onemight expect.
(53:23):
There is no sort of I'm goingto kill you because I think you
slept with my girlfriend.
It's more like tell meeverything you get to spend time
with her in ways that I can't.
That was actually sweet.
And then, lastly, we talkedabout sort of the storytelling
and the medium of film and thesort of choices, storytelling
(53:47):
and the medium of film and thesort of choices, the directorial
choices to like, use a scorethat was very contemporary music
with lots of synthesizer thatnow sounds very dated but
sounded very hip.
And now, in 1985.
The choice to have MatthewBroderick with this sort of
running monologue which isdirected at God rather than the
viewer, as it will be a coupleyears later in Ferris Bueller,
from Matthew Broderick, butstill kind of an 80s sort of
(54:09):
feel narratively as well,because it was sort of the
Biloxi blues that MatthewBroderick had been doing.
And also some of the biggerthings that I named, like the
beautiful cinematography of thecountryside, which I expect in a
much bigger, more serious movie.
(54:30):
This movie doesn't have a wholelot of dramatic gravitas and it
never was meant to.
I mean, that's not what RichardDonner did.
Right, superman, goonies, theToy was one of his movies that
we've talked about.
He was making entertainment.
But the cinematography is notjust sort of like a quick and
(54:51):
dirty teen film.
Right, the cinematography issomething much bigger that has
Oscar aspirations.
So all of those things together, I think, are a really
interesting mix that to bothlike little 10-year-old, or
9-year-old me and also49-year-old me, is kind of like
(55:12):
yeah, bring it.
Like what's going to tell thebest story with this?
You know, michelle Pfeiffer,who's a hawk, and Rutger Hauer,
who's this awesome black wolf,and like okay, who's this
awesome black wolf?
Speaker 2 (55:27):
and like okay, it's the kind of thing that when you
read shakespeare, there's a lotof stuff, there are jokes that
were topical, that probably feltlike that's not appropriate and
hamlet you know, that's not howthe danish do things, whatever.
But now, because we're so manyyears on, they're not topical
anymore, they're, they'rehistorical.
And so we're so many years on,they're not topical anymore,
they're historical.
And so we have so much troubleviewing things that way.
Speaker 1 (55:48):
Yeah, yeah, because we're close to them.
I think you also named thatthere's a certain kind of
confirmation bias, that weexpect it to be a certain way
that Roger Ebert helped, you see, with the Knight's Tale, where
the music that we have come toexpect in sort of Shakespearean
(56:08):
or medieval or whatever like, isitself anachronistic.
It's just that we've been doingthat anachronism for so long
that it feels somehow natural.
Speaker 2 (56:15):
I'm putting quotes around that word.
Speaker 1 (56:16):
And Alan Parsons did not feel natural for this
medieval story.
So that's like a reallyinteresting thing just about the
way that culture informsculture and then seems like it's
not cultural, seems like it'ssomehow actually like baked in
truth.
So that's that's a reallyinteresting question.
And then you asked me to think abit about faith in this movie
(56:39):
and sort of what the lessonswere about faith and I think the
fact that we have this veryfaithful thief and faithful
disgraced priest and it's verylike not faithful, like
literally satanic bishop arevery interesting pieces in terms
of thinking about cosmology andgood and evil and whatever in
(57:03):
this film.
So much so so that one of thethings that I think your
question helped me to see waspart of the faith that Imperius
and Philippe have is in love,but also, I would say, in other
people.
So there is a faith in God.
There definitely is, but it isexpressed and manifest through
(57:24):
their faith in other people.
So there's something likereally lovely about that that
rejects the idea of the kind ofhigh church faith which is based
on power in one individual whocan become corrupt, and much
more in a kind of faith of thepeople, a faith of relationship
yeah faith of the people, afaith of relationship, and it's
(57:47):
expressed in the love betweenthese two people.
but then it comes outward too,because then they also express
their love before the film endsfor Philippe and Imperius and
for the work that they did andthe risks that they took in the
service of love.
So there's something really,really nice about that, you know
, in this little throwawayfantasy film.
Speaker 2 (58:06):
That the scene of.
I have visceral memories ofMatthew Broderick crying and
kissing the priest.
Yeah, like that stuck with me.
Yeah, because it's how I feelabout other people.
Speaker 1 (58:22):
Yeah, you know, yeah, that's nice Well.
So anyway, I'm glad we watchedit.
I'm really glad we put it onthe list.
I had a lot of fun.
So next weekend, what are youbringing me?
Speaker 2 (58:33):
I am bringing you my deep thoughts about the Kevin
Kline film In and Out, which isthe other one that should have
let me know I was neurodivergent, besides Chasing Amy.
Speaker 1 (58:41):
Besides Chasing should have let me know I was
neurodivergent.
Besides chasing Amy.
Besides chasing Amy.
Cool, Well see you next week.
Speaker 2 (58:46):
I'll see you next week.
Speaker 1 (58:49):
This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make
it free to produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
, of course, share the show withyour people.
Thanks for listening.
(59:12):
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to ResonateRecordings for editing today's
episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
We've got this reciprocity.
We've got this sense that theygenuinely love one another and
they take care of one another,even though they only have like
split seconds when they're bothhuman each day and they're not
always in the same space.
When that happens to Navar,completely taking her agency
from her, in that moment, I meanhe's doing it for, I guess,
(00:29):
like the right reasons I'mputting quotes around that
Because he thinks he's doing itfor her benefit and for her best
interest.
But like I'm sorry, fuck that.
She's an adult, she's a human Imean a hawk human but still,
have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's just
pop culture, what others mightdeem stupid shit?
(00:52):
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts About
Stupid Shit, because popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
(01:13):
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1985 Richard Donner filmLadyhawk with my sister, emily
Guy-Burken, and with you.
Let's dive in.
All right, em.
I know you saw this because wesaw it together probably
multiple times when we wereyoungins, when it was new.
What do you remember about Lady?
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Hawk.
So I remember MatthewBroderick's haircut and learning
that they made it to look likekind of like an old-timey monk
tonsure and by old-timey, like14th century.
And then I learned later onthat it's not possible without
like modern clippers Modernclippers which actually I think
will come up later in ourconversation.
So I remember that.
(01:55):
I remember dad pointing out tous there's a point where he
steals someone's purse bycutting the strings and he's
like that's where the word cutpurse comes from and I remember
thinking that was super cool.
So I remember that.
Rutger Hauer and MichellePfeiffer I remember her name is
(02:16):
Isabeau, because I thought thatwas a beautiful name and it was
around when I started being aFrancophile and they're cursed
by a bishop or something she isa hawk by day and a woman at
night, and he is a wolf at nightand a man by day, and they are
(02:40):
very deeply in love andthey're're together but they
can't, they're not actuallytogether because there is no way
for them to like.
I remember there's a scene likejust as the sun sets or rises,
one of those where, like they'retransitioning for just a second
, they get to see each other ashuman beings and there is an
(03:01):
eclipse at the end, which whichis how the curse is broken.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
So those are my Damn.
You remember a lot.
I don't even have to do asynopsis.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Okay, Apparently this is a well-remembered film.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Yeah, you remember a lot.
All those things are accurate.
So tell me, why are we talkingabout this today?
You remember more than I did.
I did not remember the cutpurse thing, although there were
things that while I wasrewatching I was like oh yeah,
oh yeah.
But yeah, I loved this moviewhen we were kids.
I loved it, and so my last leadI looked at SpongeBob,
(03:39):
squarepants.
So I wanted to go back furtherand so I was trying to think of
something that was.
You know, I've been looking atromance a little bit lately and
I think that, you know, afterthe little detour of SpongeBob,
I wanted to go back and look atromance again and sort of see
what's in there, because I justdidn't remember I certainly
don't remember the way that youdid.
(03:59):
Some of the things that I'mgoing to bring to you are about
gender, but specifically genderin romance, and also like the
way that Pfeiffer embodiesIsabeau and like kind of how she
shows up there it's better thanI thought it might be.
I'll say it that way.
Like she very easily could justbe a trophy and I think she is
(04:23):
a more fully formed characterthan that, which is a testament
to Donner and to thescreenwriter and also to
Pfeiffer.
I think she really did a greatjob.
I mean the woman's gorgeous, Imean like, and her presence in
this film, like her gorgeousness, like she's gorgeous no matter
what she does, but in this filmin particular, like it is a plot
(04:43):
point, but it also is justthere for anyone to see just
real quick.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
You said donner just wanted to.
I don't think we we've said ohsorry, thank you.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Richard donner directed this film and I did
open with that way and uh andhe's, uh.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
He's a friend of the show because we've already
talked about his film supermanthe movie.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
We talked about superman the movie.
We talked about the toy.
We talked about go film,superman the movie.
So we talked about Superman themovie.
We talked about the toy.
We talked about Goonies.
Yes, those are all RichardDonner films.
Yeah, so I believe this is ourfourth Richard Donner film.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
So he like I didn't know this, but he basically
directed a lot of our childhoodTotally.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Yeah, yeah.
So I want to talk about genderand specifically gender and
romance.
To talk about gender andspecifically gender and romance
because there are, there areways in which, despite the fact
that they are not actuallytogether in human form, there is
reciprocity between these two,and there are ways in which
there is not.
So I would like to talk aboutthat and sort of what that
separation and the romance ofthat separation did to little
(05:40):
like baby cooking brains of ours.
I also want to talk about theactual craft of the film.
The film gets a lot of flackfrom people who are like well,
so the music is like AlanParsons produced, as in the Alan
Parsons project, and he's notthe one who wrote the score,
(06:01):
somebody else did.
But it's super synthesizerheavy, it's very 1980s.
So there's a lot of folks whokind of really give it a hard
time for having this so-calledanachronistic music for this
movie that is set in the 14thcentury.
Broderick's performance.
Broderick plays basically thenarrator and he's the character
(06:24):
who is the bridge between thesetwo people who can never
actually be together.
And this is before FerrisBueller's day off, but it's sort
of like he's getting ready forFerris Bueller.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
It's Ferris Bueller's 14th century.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, it kind of is he has this running monologue
with God.
I mean he's talking directly toGod, so it's not a direct
camera address in the way thatBueller is, but it is sort of
like it does feel like a 14thcentury John Hughes movie
sometimes.
So people find that bothersomesomehow as well.
(07:00):
I actually think it's cool andit works and it's kind of like
none of it is realistic.
So why would I like thesepeople turn into animals like?
Why do I care that there'ssynthesizer music?
You know it's also the case thatit is shot in Italy, I believe
the like Donner's, like thecinematography is really
(07:23):
gorgeous.
The actual landscape feels muchbigger than this goofy 80s
fantasy romance.
So all of that together to mejust works as a whole package.
But I want to kind of unpacksome of that.
But before I do I'm going togive a little bit more of a
synopsis than you gave from yourmemory.
But I actually am going to relyon Wikipedia to try and get it
(07:46):
done relatively quickly andconcisely if I can.
So thank you to Wikipediaeditors here.
I've heard that one before, Iknow.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
I know We'll see if I can do it.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
We'll see if I can do it.
So I am reading from WikipediaIn medieval Italy it says Italy
I think it's supposed to beFrance.
It's Frank Italy.
It says Italy I think it'ssupposed to be France.
It's Frank-Italy, it'sItaly-Frankia, it's Europe.
Philippe Gaston, a thief knownas the Mouse, is captured and
sentenced to death but escapesfrom the Bishop of Aquila's
(08:16):
dungeons through the sewers.
He is apprehended at an inn byCaptain Marquet and the bishop's
guards.
Former captain Etienne Navarrearrives on the scene and he and
his pet hawk attack the guardsand then escape with Philippe.
Navarre and Philippe ask forlodging at a farmer's barn At
dusk.
The farmer ambushes Philippewith an axe but is killed by an
(08:38):
enormous black wolf.
Philippe runs back to the barnto get Navarre's help, but
instead finds a beautiful youngwoman dressed in Navarre's cloak
, who calmly approaches the wolfand walks into the woods with
it.
The next day Navarre reveals heneeds Philippe as a part of a
plan to kill the evil Bishop ofAquila.
Philippe refuses, so Navarreties him to a tree.
(08:58):
That night the young womanreappears and Philippe tricks
her into cutting his bonds.
He flees but is recaptured byMarquet and the guards, who
learn Navarre's location fromhim.
Navarre once again fights offMarquet and his men to free
Philippe.
In the process, his hawk isshot with an arrow, Traveling
slowly due to injuries of hisown.
(09:20):
Navarre orders Philippe to goon ahead of him and take the
hawk to the castle of an's, likea ruined castle of an old monk
named Imperius.
Philippe obeys and Imperiussequesters the hawk in a locked
room.
Philippe picks the lock anddiscovers the young woman now
with an arrow protruding fromher chest.
Ah, your suspicions areconfirmed.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
I remember the monk saying like I have a hawk from
Navarre and he's like, oh, thenwe shall feast.
He's like, no, no, no, no, it'shis hawk.
And the monk's like, oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Yeah, okay.
After Imperius treats herwounds, he explains to Philippe
that the woman is Isabeau ofAnjou, who once refused the
bishop's unwelcome advances.
After learning from a drunkenimperious that Navarre and
Isabeau were married, the bishopcalled down a satanic curse
(10:15):
upon them, dooming them to bequote always together, yet
eternally apart.
That's what Philippe says aboutit when he hears the story.
Navarre therefore takes theshape of a wolf each night,
while Isabeau becomes a hawk byday.
The bishop guards attack thecastle shortly before daybreak,
but the sunrise turns Isabeauback into a hawk, allowing her
to fly to safety.
She's actually like falling,like as Michelle Pfeiffer
(10:37):
falling from the top of thetower and like just as the sun
hits her, like she, like,narrowly escapes.
Navarre catches up to thecastle and dispatches the last
of the guards.
Imperius tells him that thecurse can be broken if the
couple can both face the bishopas humans on a day without night
and a night without day.
Within three days' time,navarre dismisses Imperius as an
old drunk and continues his wayto Aquila, intent on simply
(11:00):
killing the bishop.
For revenge, philippevolunteers to join Navarre and
Lady Hawk.
That's what he has.
Philippe has nicknamed the hawkand bids Imperius to follow
them.
After the group survives anencounter with the bishop's
hired wolf trapper, cesar, andseveral other adventures,
philippe finally convincesNavarre to try to break the
curse before killing the bishop.
(11:21):
When the group arrives at Aquila, navarre, seeing no divine
signs in the sky, once againdecides to kill the bishop and
orders Imperius to euthanize theIssa Bohawk if the church bells
ring, as would signal Navarre'sfailure.
Philippe, having snuck backinto Aquila through the sewers
the way he had escaped it,infiltrates the cathedral and
unlocks its doors.
Navarre rides in and duels withMarquette.
(11:42):
It's not a duel, it's a um.
What's it called when they runat each other on horses?
Oh, joust, yeah, yeah, yeah,it's a joust.
Like in the cathedral, like themass worshipers are all just
like around the sides Likethey're jousting.
Thank, you.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
That's one of the official sports of Maryland.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Okay, during the fight, marquette, the current
captain of the guard, tosses hishelmet up and through this
roundel window, and through thebroken window we see a solar
eclipse.
So Navarre realizes thatImperius was right, but he fails
to stop the bishop's men fromringing the bell.
So he thinks Aesau is dead andin fact we see Imperius holding
(12:24):
the hawk.
She's got like the hawk, hasthe hood on that like covers its
eyes, and he's holding a knifeand he says may God forgive me.
So we viewers are meant tothink she's dead too.
So Navarro, excuse me, navar isabout to kill the bishop.
And the bishop says ah, but ifyou kill me, the curse will
never be broken.
What about Isabeau?
And he says Isabeau is dead.
(12:45):
And then behind him he hearsher voice, navarre.
So then he realizes that he canbreak the curse.
So he forces the bishop to lookat her and then look at him,
and then look at us.
And then Imperius, it's over,it's broken.
(13:06):
Navar turns to approach isaboand the bishop says the line
that we hear in so many moviesif I can't have her, no man
shall.
And he's like about to like ramhis.
He's got like a sharp point onhis bishop's staff and he's
gonna, like you know, as onedoes.
(13:28):
So he's gonna I mean, he alsomade a deal with the devil, so
so he's gonna stab navar.
But somebody warns him I don'tremember who and so navar turns
around and like throws his longsword and, like it flies through
the air, impales the on the Idon't know what it's called like
a piece of A churchy thing.
(13:48):
A churchy thing, yeah, and thenwe're nice Jewish girls.
Yeah, it's like a churchywooden thing, like a panel, a
wooden churchy panel thing, it'spart of the bima.
It's got a cross on it.
Yeah, it's the cross panelthing on the bima.
It's got a cross on it.
Yeah, it's the cross panelthing on the bima.
(14:08):
So so we watch him die and thenthe lovers embrace and he picks
her up and she's laughing andhe's like you cut your hair and
like all the people who are inthe cathedral room are just sort
of watching.
And then there's like a navarcalls imperious and philippe
over and the four of them kindof hug.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
And Navar doesn't Imperius like kiss Philippe or
something, or like they?
Speaker 1 (14:30):
well, when they are watching the two of, like the
whole thing go down like theykiss, they kiss not romantically
but no like thank goodness,sweetly, yeah, yeah, well, and
like, and Philippe's like crying.
Yes, philippe is actively crying, we see, we see tears running
down Matthew Broderick's faceand then the four of them
together.
More kisses are exchanged,navar kisses, philippe first and
(14:51):
then Isabeau does too.
So, yay, happy ending, yeah.
So a couple of key moments thatWikipedia didn't name that I
want to name in terms of likepieces of dialogue that kind of
stuck with me, that I thinkappealed to me as a child.
The first one is fairly early on, marquis is telling the bishop
(15:13):
that Maus has escaped and no onehas ever escaped from the
dungeons of Aquila before and hewas just a petty thief.
So like it's not a big deal,like they got much worse
criminals down there.
And the bishop is like, no, noone escapes, you need to find
him.
It's like it's not a big deal,like they got much worse
criminals down there.
And the bishop is like, no, noone escapes, you need to find
him.
It's like the kind of power.
And Marquis is like I mean, allright, but it would take a
miracle for him to have survivedwith the way that he like
(15:35):
because he went through thesewers.
And the bishop says I believein miracles, captain, it's a
part of my job.
I believe in miracles, captain.
It's a part of my job which Ifind like, as an adult, I find
absolutely ridiculous andhilarious and like beautiful,
and I think as a kid I probably,like unironically, loved it.
(15:56):
Oh God, yes, yeah.
Another was the one thatWikipedia does name, although it
doesn't credit him, which islike when Philippe first hears
the story, he says somethinglike always together, eternally
apart, him.
Which is like when philippefirst hears the story, he says
something like always together,eternally apart.
Which is like like,unironically, when I was like
came in now like wow, wow.
And the other one in the samevein is philippe, is is like
(16:19):
really like weirded out as oneis, when the hawk that they were
minding turns into a beautifulwoman and so he's, he's looking
at her, she's got this crossbowbolt sticking up out of her like
chest shoulder area, and he'slike what are you?
Are you?
Are you flesh or are you spirit?
And she says she like looks athim and then kind of looks away
(16:41):
and says I am sorrow.
And the thing is like,certainly in 85, I believed her.
Oh God, yes, even in 2025, Iwas like oh.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
It takes someone of the caliber of michelle pfeiffer
to sell that she really did too.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
I mean, anyway, I am sorrow.
The last one that I rememberedwhile I was telling the the I am
sorrow one is so philippe'stalking to god the whole time
and he's making deals with godand it's it's actually, I think,
pretty funny so because, like,while he's like escaping with
God, and it's actually, I think,pretty funny, because while
he's escaping, he promises Godhe'll never pick another pocket
for as long as he lives.
(17:30):
And before he's even fully outof Aquila, he cuts that purse
that you remember and he says toGod I know I told you I
wouldn't do this, but I know,you know what a weak-willed
person I am, but I know, youknow what a weak-willed person I
am.
And then at the end, as he'ssneaking back into the dungeons,
(17:50):
he says I wonder if this iswhat your plan was all along.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
I have to say it would reflect well on you.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
He says to God, which , again, like I don't know, I
just found pretty delightful.
So anyway, those are just acouple of, like specific
dialogue pieces that I wanted toname before I get too far into
analysis.
So all done.
So let me start with gender.
So this film doesn't even passthe first question of the
Bechdel test.
(18:22):
Isabel is the only named femalecharacter.
There are a couple of otherwomen who appear on screen, like
the farmer that they stay withthat first night that Philippe
is with Navarre has a wife orsister or something, A woman who
lives with him, yeah, but sheis an extra.
(18:42):
And then at one point we see inhis garden, we see women sort
of dancing for the bishop, again, completely extras.
So she is the only named womanand we are meant to know that
she is extraordinary in everyway.
We're meant to know that inpart because of the way the
(19:04):
other characters treat her, inpart because, you know, they
cast michelle pfeiffer in 1985,so she was like at the height of
her magnificence by societalstandards and like, even as a
hawk.
Somehow we like feel herpresence.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
I don't know, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
So it doesn't pass Bechdel, it doesn't even pass
the first Bechdel question andin many ways so, as I said, like
in some ways, that there is areciprocity about this love that
we are meant to believe.
So he, navar, etienne Navar,cares for her, you know, when
she's a hawk, and he also, as awolf, protects her.
(19:45):
We see the wolf protect her,but there are ways in which she
also cares for and protects him.
So in a very early scene, thehawk like startles and kind of
attacks some of the attackers,the would-be attackers of the
bishop's guard, and helps themget away.
And as a woman, we see herprotect the wolf as well.
(20:10):
And in fact, in a very key scene, near the end, they've
convinced Imperius, believes, hethinks I don't know if he knows
the eclipse is coming, but heknows that God spoke to him and
he knows that they can breakthis curse if they can keep
Navarre from screwing it up bykilling the bishop too soon.
And so Imperius and Philippeconvince Isabeau that they
(20:33):
should do this, and so they'regoing to trap him as a wolf to
keep him from going to kill thebishop too soon.
And they try to lure him into atrap, but he crosses across ice
to get to her and falls throughthe ice and she like risks
everything to try and save himwhile he's in the water.
In the end, philippe actuallygets him up out of the water and
gets all scratched up.
(20:53):
And that's when navar sees the,the scratches on his chest the
next day.
That's how he changes his planand decides to go along with
them.
There's another moment where thewikipedia named that the bishop
had hired this like wolf hunterand isabel and philippe see the
pelt and she takes the horsenavar's horse and goes off in
(21:13):
the woods to try and find thistrapper to protect, to protect
navar, and in the end she likeends up killing the.
I mean he kind of kills himself, but she, she helps the trapper
get killed in his own wolf traplike a bear trap claw thing
that ends up on his head.
It's pretty gross so there's asense in which there is a
(21:37):
reciprocity in that way, which Ithink is actually kind of rare,
especially for a story set, youknow know, in the distant past.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Well, it's presented like kind of a fairy tale,
almost, yes, and so it would berare for a fairy tale, and if
you're like taking on thetrappings of fairy tales, you
often take on those kinds ofexpectations and rules too,
right.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
And then there's like two moments where it sort of
challenges in the reciprocitybut in interesting and in some
moments problematic, I don'tknow we can unpack it.
So one thing I actually didremember, that was one of the
scenes that was like oh, Iremember that when I rewatched
it was at one point Navar andphilippe are talking in the
(22:29):
morning and the hawk comesflying from a distance and navar
puts his arm up for her to landon his forearm and philippe is
kind of like stretching and thehawk lands on philippe's arm
like passes navarre to land onphilippe's arm and they're both
like um and like there's likeclear jealousy here.
(22:51):
And then there's like whathappened last night, and it's
the night after the killing thewolf trapper, and that's
actually the moment too when hesays when philippe says she's
the most amazing woman I've evermet, and yeah, I've had my
fantasies, but the truth is sheonly ever wants to talk about
you.
Whatever, it's unclear to me.
(23:11):
Philippe tells each of themthings that the other one said
that we, the viewer, did not seethem say.
It's unclear to me whether ornot we're meant to think he's
pulling a Cyrano and lying tolike strengthen the romance, or
if we just didn't see them saythose things.
It's unclear to me.
I, as a kid I think I thoughtthe first that he was lying it
(23:33):
was Cyrano, I think.
Probably I'm leaning toward thatwith this as well, cause
Philippe has like a looserelationship with the truth.
That's yeah, that's prettyclear, that's been made clear.
And when he does tell the truthhe says something to God about
having told the truth, yeah,yeah.
So I think there's like thatmoment of like jealousy.
(23:57):
But then it is in the end whenboth Navar and Isabelle kiss
philippe in sort of gratitude.
It's like there's there's thatmoment of jealousy, but it's
less about sort ofpossessiveness and and more
about like.
I mean he even says navar sayslike every moment that you spend
(24:20):
with her I'm, I'm jealous of,but not in the how dare you be
with my girlfriend, just like Ican't.
So there's something like alivefor me in that.
That feels a little bit morenuanced and interesting than the
sort of traditional genderroles and romance that I might
have expected from a fairy tale.
(24:42):
Yeah, yeah, and then this iswhere we always get At the end.
They've got this plan and, asWikipedia told us, navar doesn't
see the signs.
He tells Imperius, andWikipedia says euthanize.
(25:02):
He says, make it quick, quick,because I don't want to condemn
her to a half-life without me.
Nobody asked the hawk what shewanted, right, like it's not
even that.
I think that, like this, the,the film or the story shouldn't
(25:24):
be willing to take suicide, asyou know, as an option that one
of these characters might take,but surely she should be allowed
to choose it and not beeuthanized, as as wikipedia put
it, and like, thank god, likeimperious says.
Imperious says to navar I can'tdo it, I don't think I can do
it, and navar's like no, youhave to, because this is your
(25:47):
fault, because initiallyimperious was the one who, he
was the confessor to both ofthem and that's how the bishop
ended up finding out that theywere together.
So and we are meant to believehe's done it, like we see that
(26:07):
cut scene where he says may Godforgive me, and he's got the
hawk in his hand and a knife inthe other.
So we've got this reciprocity,we've got this sense that they
genuinely love one another andthey take care of one another,
even though they only haveseconds, when they're both human
each day and they're not alwaysin the same space.
When that happens and then we'remeant to like I guess I feel
(26:28):
like we are meant to besympathetic to navar, completely
taking her agency from her inthat moment.
I mean he's doing it for Iguess, like the right reasons,
I'm putting quotes around thatbecause he mean he's doing it
for I guess, like the rightreasons, I'm putting quotes
around that because he thinkshe's doing it for her benefit
and for her best interest.
But like I'm sorry, fuck that.
She's an adult, she's a human,I mean a hawk human, but still
(26:53):
now.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Is there any sense that he is aiming to protect her
from the bishop'slasciviousness or anything?
Not that that makes it okayeither?
Speaker 1 (27:05):
No, no, it's protecting her from a half-life
that she didn't choose, orsomething like that.
Yeah, no it's about.
Yeah, it's unacceptable, it'skind of ableist in a weird way.
Yeah, and I guess.
So I mean one, and he had hisown version of it, you know.
(27:29):
So one imagines that likethat's what he would want in the
, if the inverse were happening,except that, like again, let
her transform and then choose.
Yeah, yeah, so I, yeah, so thatthat one piece, like that one
plot point, which was essential.
Yeah, yeah, I was thinking likethey had to do that because
(27:52):
navar needed to think she wasgone, yeah, and that all hope
was lost so that he, or therewas nothing left for him but the
revenge that he came for in thefirst place.
Like we needed to have thatmoment so that we could have the
big reveal and the like verydramatic.
Look at her, you know.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
But it would have.
For the writer and Donner.
All it would have taken was onemoment of we're agreed.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Like yeah, yeah, yeah , yeah, yeah, I talked to her
about it.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
this is what she wants too.
Yeah, yeah, I told her yourplan.
She agreed.
And then, like even philippe,like checking with her, like is
this what you?
Want yes I don't know whateverwell, actually, I guess the
navarro and isabelle can'tactually speak no, they can't,
so they would have to agreethrough an intermediary,
intermediary or like I don'tknow, so they would have to
agree through an intermediaryThrough their intermediary, or
like I don't know if they'reable to write because it's the
14th century, that's not a partof the story.
(28:44):
Yeah, so like they would have toagree through an intermediary.
All they'd have to do is havesaid that they did.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Have said that they did, yeah that they did yeah,
yeah and like yeah would havetaken two seconds, yeah, yeah.
So that's there.
That's that's in there as partof the furniture of the mind.
The other thing, that's that's.
You know, I don't think I, I'mI'm certain I didn't catch in
1985, I just thought of it.
There's a moment where, afterphilippe has learned the whole
(29:16):
story, he's talking, talking toNavarre, and Navarre says do you
know that wolves and hawks bothmade for life?
He didn't even leave us that.
He didn't even leave us.
That.
Like they can't get it on intheir other forms, you know,
(29:40):
like their non-monogamy, likeher with a boy hawk and him with
a she-wolf.
They, they can't do thatbecause wolves and hawks made
for life.
I guess.
I guess that's what I'minterpreting what that's like.
Initially, when he first saidthey made it for life, I was
like oh, yeah, there's something.
And then he said yeah, and thenhe said the bishop didn't even
leave us.
That.
That is what that means, right?
Speaker 2 (30:01):
I can't think of any other right.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
I can't think of any other reason like why you would
say the bishop didn't leave us,that sorry, okay, all right, I'm
just thinking about, like hotlupine and hot, I don't know
what the, what the latin word behawkeye sex would be anyway.
(30:32):
Okay, so that's funny, so.
So that's that's basically whatI wanted to talk about.
On the romance piece of it, Iwill say that little baby Tracy
thought that this was just soromantic.
This being separated but beingtogether but not being able to
(30:54):
be together.
Separated but being togetherbut not being able to be
together, like that is like sodeep down in the like romance
DNA, like maybe from this movieor others like it, you know, but
like that idea that thisunrealized, requited but
unrealized longing as like somesort of model for true romance
(31:21):
is like deeply resonant and Idon't know if it's because of
this movie or this movie is justlike.
I think I things the bell.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
I would really like to dig into this a little bit,
just because I definitely feelthat as well, that mutual pining
.
It just lights something upinside of me and I have spent
time thinking about that,because that is not what a real
(31:51):
healthy relationship can ever beand in fact it's kind of toxic
to be in a situation like thatand like this film gives you
like an okay reason for it, likebecause it's outside of their
control, whereas, yeah,completely outside of their
control yeah whereas like a lotof the so you know, we talked
about x-files early on and likethey were kept apart for you,
(32:14):
you know Chris Carter's reasons.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Which removed their agency when it came to like and
there's like there are points atyou know, I have been reading
like long series where it's likewill they, won't they like book
series, and eventually I losemy patience because it's like
just freaking talk to each other, because it's trying to
(32:39):
recreate that mutual pining thatis so deeply satisfying and I
wish I understood why and sothat it can stretch it out to
five books.
But at some point adults needto talk about their feelings.
Adults need to to talk abouttheir feelings no, no, I won't.
(33:04):
So yeah, and so like there's,there's, uh like I can
definitely understand why thisfilm in particular lit you up,
because it's not stupid whythey're apart it you up, because
it's not stupid why they'reapart.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
It's magical.
It's magical and that that also, like that's another one of my,
one of the stars in myconstellation is the magical and
then and they can also do theloving things for each other.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
That is another thing that I find deeply satisfying,
while still mutually pining.
So I think there's a very goodreason why this lit us both up
as children, like why we bothreally love this.
I also think there's somethingvery human about being drawn to
these kinds of tragic lovestories because your spouse
(33:58):
leaves the toilet seat up andsocks on the floor and you know
you have bad breath in themorning and you know life is not
romantic yeah pining, piningand not being able to be
together that is romantic yeah,yeah, yeah, I bet you.
I think you're on to somethingfor sure so but it it is, it
(34:20):
does worry me.
We, before we started recording, I was saying like it worries
me because I like the pining somuch that I, we, our sister,
podcast, light bringers.
I talked about how like, uh,devastated.
Lucifer is my favorite luciferand at the very last episode
they gave a lot of fan servicewith like the two of them just
like hugging each other and likesnuggling it.
(34:42):
I'm like squirming withdiscomfort, like that's enough
now.
It's like I want them apart andlike in pain.
I'm like what is wrong with me?
Speaker 1 (34:55):
well, I think maybe what's wrong with you is
michelle pfeiffer saying I amsorrow because damn, she looked
good saying it yeah all right.
Well, I'm gonna move us on to myfinal bucket here.
(35:19):
So the final bucket is actuallya pullback away from the
content and looking at theactual form.
So this movie gets a lot of.
I read one commentator who saidI'm going to write about a cult
80s film, which is actually aredundant statement because
every 80s film is cult forsomebody.
So this one it does have a lotof people who love it, but a lot
(35:44):
of critics at the time andsince give it a really hard time
for so-called anachronisms,right.
So it's meant to be set in 14thcentury Franco-Italy and, like
I I said, the score is very 80slike it was pretty cutting edge
in 85.
I mean it was like damn damn, itis really.
(36:09):
And so people, people give it ahard time for that sort of
anachronistic music or so-called, and I mean it is.
But they also and then theygive a they.
And then they give Broderick'sperformance a hard time.
They say he was sort of doinghis Biloxi blues thing because
it was pre-Ferris Bueller andyou know he is.
But like, so, like it's, I findit now.
(36:34):
I loved it at the time and Iwas a child.
And looking back now as anadult, all these years later, I
find it now.
I loved it at the time and Iwas a child.
And looking back now as anadult, all these years later, as
you say, it's a fairy tale,right, it's a fantasy.
Like it's not a real place,it's not actually based on a
real fairy tale.
(36:54):
Like I think I read somewherethat there was like a sense that
it was kind of like based on anactual medieval tale.
It wasn't Like they let that belike the mythos around it,
because that, you know, thatsells movies.
But it was just some dude'sidea, you know.
Like the writer just was like,oh, this would be a cool story.
(37:16):
So he wrote the story and itwas made for 1980s american
audience.
You know so like already, likethey're all speaking english
well, and it's american actorsuh-huh, and they've got like
even like what's funny to melike broderick has just his
(37:37):
normal whatever accent throughmost of it, but then there are
moments where he has this kindof like Shakespearean stage
actor kind of an accentpresentation.
Yeah, I don't know if that wason meant to like if Mouse was
supposed to be doing that orBroderick forgot that he was
doing the accent.
You know what I mean.
I'm choosing to believe thatmouse was doing it, but I don't
(38:04):
know honestly.
Yeah and the like, if we, if westop trying to ask it to not be
what it isn't and just enjoywhat it is, I think the 80s
score really works.
I think the Biloxi bluestreatment of Philippe Gaston,
known as the mouse, really works.
(38:24):
Like he's a ridiculouscharacter.
Like in the very first momentwe meet him we're just seeing
like this, like mud and sewageand like fingers sticking
through, and he says nothing isimpossible, mouse.
And he's like pushing hisshoulder and head through this
like opening.
He says nothing is impossible,mouse.
And he's like pushing hisshoulder and head through this
like opening.
He says it's just like leavingmother's womb.
Now, that's a memory.
It's ridiculous.
(38:45):
And it's ridiculous from momentone.
And when the guards come to gethim.
His cellmate speaks in rhymeLike to ease the pain he went
down the drain.
It's just ridiculous and Ithink if we can just let it be
what it is like.
I feel like we put a lot ofpressure on things that claim to
(39:08):
be set in the Middle Ages tosomehow be like historically
accurate.
I'm putting quotes around thatbecause we don't actually know a
lot of things about the waythings were in medieval times,
and the things that we do knowlike I don't want to see on
screen.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
I don't want to see no bubonic plague, thank you.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Like I mean they make mention of the plague when,
like, the bishop calls the wolfhunter to come in, he's got all
these pellets and the bishop'slooking through them and he's
like, no, that's not it.
That's not it.
Like these are not the wolf I'mlooking for and the the hunter
is like, well, since the plague,there's more wolves than people
you know.
And like they mentionedcrusades and and saracen, like
(39:51):
it's like vaguely in ouruniverse but, also like kind of
like I don't know.
So I think there's somethingreally interesting that like and
you, before we hit record we'retalking about, like what it is
that as an, as audiences, we'rewilling to suspend our
disbeliefs about, and what we'renot, and so yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
I mentioned about the like kind of tonsure haircut
that Broderick has.
That is not possible with toolsat the time that this is
supposedly set.
But the thing is not a singleperson who complains about the
soundtrack says boo about hishaircut because his haircut fits
(40:33):
what we think that time lookslike, and so what we call
realistic is just what confirmsour preconceived notions about
history.
And so I mentioned before westarted recording, about the
Tiffany problem, which isTiffany is actually a very old
name and it was a relativelypopular name in the Middle Ages
(40:54):
and in English-speakingcountries.
But modern audiences read it,hear it, as a modern name, and
so if we had, if Isabel had beennamed Tiffany, people would
have been like what the hell isthis, even though it would have
been period appropriate.
So there's that tension of whatwe expect versus what actually
(41:20):
was.
And then there's the tension of, as you mentioned, what are we
willing to suspend our disbeliefabout.
Consistently, when you havefantasy stories that are set in
some kind of history, historicalperiod so I'm thinking
specifically Game of Thronespeople will say yes, yes,
dragons, yes, women giving birthto monsters, yes, yes, all of
(41:42):
that, and we'll say why doesthere have to be so much rape in
it.
They're like well, it'shistorically accurate.
And, to be honest, I even cansee this in some modern takes as
well.
I can remember our stepfathercomplaining about how they
changed the ending of PrettyWoman to be a happy ending
(42:04):
instead of the more realisticending where Julia Roberts'
character ends up strung out ondrugs at the end instead of it
being a happy Hollywood ending,and he'd be like it's just wrong
, it should be the realisticending.
I'm like why, like this isn'tbased on like a real person,
like you know?
Okay, I'm down with likegetting annoyed at them changing
(42:26):
like the story for a movie whenit is based on like historical
events actually happened.
But like why is that morerealistic?
But like, why is it more real?
And another moment that I likereally helped me with this, this
(42:49):
viewpoint is Roger Ebert, ourfriend, the movie A Knight's
Tale, which came out, I think,in around 2001.
I remember seeing it rightaround when I graduated from
college and the music.
There's a dance scene and I cannever remember which one's
diegetic and which one'snon-diegetic, but it's the music
that the characters can hear,not just what the audience can
hear Is, I believe.
(43:11):
I think it was a Queen song.
I think it was like Another OneBites the Dust, but I might be
misremembering but it wasdefinitely a 20th century song
and Ebert in his review talkedabout how, like, yeah, people
have a problem with that, butthe thing is, if we put the kind
of like Bach or classical musicthat you think of as
appropriate, it's stillanachronistic because it's 400
years too late, right, you know.
(43:32):
So what if it's you know, 600years too late, right, right.
So what if it's you know, 600years too late?
Right, right, we're making,we're creating an enjoyable
story that includes things likelike music and you and like the
thing is everybody's speakingmodern english, right, so why?
Why do there need to be rulesabout what the, what the
(43:54):
soundtrack sounds like?
If it works for the story, itworks.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
Yeah, it's really interesting the way like what,
as audiences, we're willing toaccept and what we're not.
So I think that's, and thismovie, I think with the
soundtrack, with Broderick'sperformance and dialogue, like
what's written for him, is sortof kind of tests, that.
And at the same time I think Imentioned before we started like
it's filmed, I think, in Italyor Ireland or I don't know some
(44:19):
beautiful sprawling country landand like some of the landscape
pieces behind this ridiculousfantasy like are gorgeous.
I mean, they're just reallygorgeous, like you expect them
in a much more serious film,mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
And so I think I find that veryinteresting that Donner and the
(44:43):
other filmmakers sort of tookthese gorgeous landscapes and
these big, big shots that belongin a different film, mm-hmm,
and this music that was reallyvery contemporary and very now,
and these actors who were verycontemporary and very now and
(45:05):
decided to sort of put it inthis story from then but it's
not really because it's notactually an old story Like I
find all of those tensions andall of those yes and yes and yes
ands to be very, veryinteresting.
And then what comes out on theother side, like I actually
really loved it, like I enjoyedwatching it both as a 9-year-old
(45:26):
and now as a 49-year-old.
I don't like thosecontradictions, don't bother me,
because I don't think they'recontradictions, because they're
all in service of this onelittle story and so I think
that's.
But I think it's an interestingthing to ask why for some of us
it's like okay, cool, whatevs,and for other people it's like I
mean, I was with you with thecurse, but Alan Parsons music no
(45:51):
.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
I draw the line at synthesizers yeah, yeah, kind of
it's.
I think it's also interestingto know, like who, who gets to
gatekeep this stuff?
Speaker 1 (46:03):
yeah, right, well, that's yeah, because that's
that's part of it.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
Yeah I do.
I I would like to, um, like,kind of ask you about one other
thing before sure, before youyou wrap up, before I wrap up.
So I find it really so.
It is kind of a fairy tale.
There's magic, but the magic isstill within the Christian
ethos.
Sure, because he's a bishop andhe like makes a deal with Satan
(46:27):
.
And so like I find it likefascinating that our narrator is
a faithful ne'er-do-well, likehe truly believes in God, truly
he's having these regularconversations with God and
similar the monk who is kind ofa screw-up, it sounds like too,
(46:49):
but also is truly faithful, andit's giving us this kind of like
dichotomy between the faith ofimperfect people and then, like
the greed of of those who are incharge, like the greedy faith
of those who are in charge.
I believe in miracles becauseit's my job.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
Yeah, yeah, no, and he's.
He has shown to have a lot ofpower, and, and, and, and he
wields it over people Like I ampower.
He doesn't say those words, buthe, he makes that very clear
yeah yeah, he makes that veryclear to marquet, who is the
captain, the guard, and toothers.
So, yes, I that's a veryinteresting point.
(47:33):
So we're we as an audience, aremeant to see sort of an
authentic faith of a thief andof a disgraced priest, and
that's where the authentic faithis, because imperious says god,
mm-hmm, anything, god's madeyou mad, so like he doesn't
believe.
So I think that's thank you forsort of lifting it up.
(48:06):
But there is definitely aninteresting like tension and
like the ultimate lessons aboutGod and faithfulness.
I mean, at one point Navar sayssomething about God as well and
Philippe says no offense, but Italk to God all the time and
he's never mentioned you.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
So, oh, my God, that is delightful, yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
What's interesting when you ask it that way, though
, is because this faithfulne'er-do-well, this faithful
thief who makes a promise to Godand almost immediately breaks
it while saying to God, you knowwhat a weak-willed person I am.
So there's definitely somethingvery interesting, and those are
the folks.
(48:51):
They get rewarded.
There was a beautiful sort ofsymmetry around Philippe's
escape and then re-entrance, and, in fact, that's why Navarre
picked him in the first place,because he's the only person who
ever escaped, and so he canhelp him get back in.
So, yeah, that's, I thinkthere's.
There's definitely lessons inthere about power and greed, and
even feminist ones to an extent.
(49:15):
About about the bishop's desireto control and own azebo that
he.
He had no right, not justbecause he was a bishop, but
then that need is reallyultimately, that desire to
control her, to own her, isultimately what caused him to
make a deal with the devil andthen die and we see him sort of
(49:39):
tortured by it.
We see him having fitfulnightmares, like nightmares and
things.
So I think, yeah, there'sdefinitely some.
Thank you for bringing that up.
There are definitely somelessons about faith and
cosmology and like it's alsoright living.
Speaker 2 (49:55):
yeah well, it's interesting because the, the,
the thief and the disgracedpriest are practicing like a
Christianity that expect thatthat forgives, and the Bishop is
clearly practicing one that hasno forgiveness.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
Well, and it's all about loyalty.
Yes, one way, loyalty, yes Tohim.
Speaker 2 (50:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:17):
There's also.
There is also something very,very clear about faith in love,
not just faith in God, but faithin love that imperious and
philly both have.
I mean that's why they'recrying like.
That's why they're crying andlike kissing one another at the
end is because they have so muchfaith in the love between these
two, these two people, and andthey want to see it get to the
point where he's leaving sockson the floor and she's got.
Yeah, well, they want to see itrealized and healthy.
(50:40):
And not not like just a moment,yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, let
me see if I can wrap this up.
So, 1985, richard Donner filmLadyhawk, we've got Rutger Hauer
and Michelle Pfeiffer andMatthew Broderick.
John Wood is the bishop Supercreepy, super creepy and Leo
(51:02):
McCurran is imperious.
So those are the key, keyactors and, honestly, they all
do a great job.
They're very, they're very fun.
This film does not pass eventhe first test of the bechdel
test, which asks us are there atleast two named female
characters?
Do they talk to one another?
Do they talk to one anotherabout something other than a man
or a boy?
The answer is no.
There's only one named femalecharacter, isebo, and she is
(51:28):
pretty amazing.
Not just beautiful, which ismade very plain I mean, it's
Michelle Pfeiffer and also inthe way the other characters
react to her, but also she isplayful, she's clearly smart,
she is bold, she is courageous.
We see all of these things.
She has this very big presenceand the love between her and
(51:50):
Navar, which I don't know why wenever call him by his first
name.
His name is Etienne.
She gets a first name, hedoesn't I don't know.
Anyway, the love between themis clearly real and reciprocal
and there is reciprocalcaregiving and reciprocal
guarding and protecting.
That is really kind of cool andunexpected.
I think we named it this thereciprocity between them feels
(52:13):
unexpected and rare in a fairytale, especially one set in the
Middle Ages.
Where we lose that reciprocityis in at the end, when Navarre
unilaterally decides that if hefails in his mission to break
the curse that Imperius shouldkill Isabeau in the hawk view
(52:38):
and, as you pointed out, itwould have been actually very
easy narratively to fix that andto have given Isabeau agency
and suggested that she hadagreed that death by suicide or
death at the hand of Imperiuswas better than a half-life.
We didn't get that.
He took that agency from her.
We also saw a moment that waskind of interesting in terms of
(53:01):
thinking about romance andgender roles in romance, where
the hawk lands on Philippe's armwhen we expected and he
expected it to land on Navarre's.
And so they have thisconversation actually about
jealousy, which is not thejealousy of possessiveness or
not precisely any way that onemight expect.
(53:23):
There is no sort of I'm goingto kill you because I think you
slept with my girlfriend.
It's more like tell meeverything you get to spend time
with her in ways that I can't.
That was actually sweet.
And then, lastly, we talkedabout sort of the storytelling
and the medium of film and thesort of choices, storytelling
(53:47):
and the medium of film and thesort of choices, the directorial
choices to like, use a scorethat was very contemporary music
with lots of synthesizer thatnow sounds very dated but
sounded very hip.
And now, in 1985.
The choice to have MatthewBroderick with this sort of
running monologue which isdirected at God rather than the
viewer, as it will be a coupleyears later in Ferris Bueller,
from Matthew Broderick, butstill kind of an 80s sort of
(54:09):
feel narratively as well,because it was sort of the
Biloxi blues that MatthewBroderick had been doing.
And also some of the biggerthings that I named, like the
beautiful cinematography of thecountryside, which I expect in a
much bigger, more serious movie.
(54:30):
This movie doesn't have a wholelot of dramatic gravitas and it
never was meant to.
I mean, that's not what RichardDonner did.
Right, superman, goonies, theToy was one of his movies that
we've talked about.
He was making entertainment.
But the cinematography is notjust sort of like a quick and
(54:51):
dirty teen film.
Right, the cinematography issomething much bigger that has
Oscar aspirations.
So all of those things together, I think, are a really
interesting mix that to bothlike little 10-year-old, or
9-year-old me and also49-year-old me, is kind of like
(55:12):
yeah, bring it.
Like what's going to tell thebest story with this?
You know, michelle Pfeiffer,who's a hawk, and Rutger Hauer,
who's this awesome black wolf,and like okay, who's this
awesome black wolf?
Speaker 2 (55:27):
and like okay, it's the kind of thing that when you
read shakespeare, there's a lotof stuff, there are jokes that
were topical, that probably feltlike that's not appropriate and
hamlet you know, that's not howthe danish do things, whatever.
But now, because we're so manyyears on, they're not topical
anymore, they're, they'rehistorical.
And so we're so many years on,they're not topical anymore,
they're historical.
And so we have so much troubleviewing things that way.
Speaker 1 (55:48):
Yeah, yeah, because we're close to them.
I think you also named thatthere's a certain kind of
confirmation bias, that weexpect it to be a certain way
that Roger Ebert helped, you see, with the Knight's Tale, where
the music that we have come toexpect in sort of Shakespearean
(56:08):
or medieval or whatever like, isitself anachronistic.
It's just that we've been doingthat anachronism for so long
that it feels somehow natural.
Speaker 2 (56:15):
I'm putting quotes around that word.
Speaker 1 (56:16):
And Alan Parsons did not feel natural for this
medieval story.
So that's like a reallyinteresting thing just about the
way that culture informsculture and then seems like it's
not cultural, seems like it'ssomehow actually like baked in
truth.
So that's that's a reallyinteresting question.
And then you asked me to think abit about faith in this movie
(56:39):
and sort of what the lessonswere about faith and I think the
fact that we have this veryfaithful thief and faithful
disgraced priest and it's verylike not faithful, like
literally satanic bishop arevery interesting pieces in terms
of thinking about cosmology andgood and evil and whatever in
(57:03):
this film.
So much so so that one of thethings that I think your
question helped me to see waspart of the faith that Imperius
and Philippe have is in love,but also, I would say, in other
people.
So there is a faith in God.
There definitely is, but it isexpressed and manifest through
(57:24):
their faith in other people.
So there's something likereally lovely about that that
rejects the idea of the kind ofhigh church faith which is based
on power in one individual whocan become corrupt, and much
more in a kind of faith of thepeople, a faith of relationship
yeah faith of the people, afaith of relationship, and it's
(57:47):
expressed in the love betweenthese two people.
but then it comes outward too,because then they also express
their love before the film endsfor Philippe and Imperius and
for the work that they did andthe risks that they took in the
service of love.
So there's something really,really nice about that, you know
, in this little throwawayfantasy film.
Speaker 2 (58:06):
That the scene of.
I have visceral memories ofMatthew Broderick crying and
kissing the priest.
Yeah, like that stuck with me.
Yeah, because it's how I feelabout other people.
Speaker 1 (58:22):
Yeah, you know, yeah, that's nice Well.
So anyway, I'm glad we watchedit.
I'm really glad we put it onthe list.
I had a lot of fun.
So next weekend, what are youbringing me?
Speaker 2 (58:33):
I am bringing you my deep thoughts about the Kevin
Kline film In and Out, which isthe other one that should have
let me know I was neurodivergent, besides Chasing Amy.
Speaker 1 (58:41):
Besides Chasing should have let me know I was
neurodivergent.
Besides chasing Amy.
Besides chasing Amy.
Cool, Well see you next week.
Speaker 2 (58:46):
I'll see you next week.
Speaker 1 (58:49):
This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make
it free to produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
, of course, share the show withyour people.
Thanks for listening.
(59:12):
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to ResonateRecordings for editing today's
episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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