Deep Thoughts about Mr. Mom

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The next thing you know, you're strung out on bedspreads.

One of the rare childhood films that the Guy Girls remember watching with both their mom and their dad, the 1983 John Hughes film Mr. Mom was in some ways an incredible progressive look at gendered work. There were only 6 (as in, one less than seven) self-reported stay-at-home dads in the U.S. in 1983, so Michael Keaton’s Jack Butler journey from incompetent, unemployed, and resentful primary parent to master homemaker and better dad truly was revolutionary. But as Tracie points out this week, the movie still carries outdated assumptions about the cost of being a woman in public (sexual harassment that is never punished), the inherent rivalries between women (because they always be fighting over a man), and the invisibility of women’s labor (unless and until a man has to do it).

Curl up with your woobie and take a listen!

Mentioned in this episode:
The Politics of Housework by Pat Mainardi

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We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Anything that allows us to self-soothe, that is not
immoral, illegal orself-destructive, like why
wouldn't we hold on to it?
What others might deem stupidshit?
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
We're sisters, tracy and Emily,collectively known as the Guy
Girls.
Every week, we take turnsre-watching, researching and

(00:22):
reconsidering beloved media andsharing what we learn.
Come overthink with us and ifyou get value from the show,
please consider supporting us.
You can become a patron onPatreon or send us a one-time
tip through Ko-fi.
Both links are in the shownotes and thanks.
I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts
About Stupid Shit, because popculture is still culture, and

(00:45):
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
Today, I'll be sharing my deepthoughts about the 1983 John
Hughes film, mr Mom, with mysister, emily Guy-Burken and
with you.
Let's dive in.
All right, em.
Mr Mom, what do you remember?

Speaker 2 (01:03):
Well, I didn't realize it was a John Hughes
film.

Speaker 1 (01:05):
I know I saw you react.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
It kind of makes sense now that you say that.
So what I remember it wasMichael Keaton, terry Garr,
right, yep.
So I remember the clotheswasher that was like off balance
and was walking Yep, thatscared me to death as a child.
I remember there's a pointwhere Terry Garr is at a like

(01:33):
business dinner and startscutting the meat for the person
she's at the dinner with Is awhoopee.
Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:42):
Yeah, okay, I remember the name of the
security blanket, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:44):
The whoopee, yes, yeah, okay, I remember the name
of the security blanket, yeah,the whoopee, and I remember that
, like I don't know that ourparents like encouraged us to
watch it, but I, like I rememberour parents, I think, liked it.
Yeah, because I, like, I havestrong memories of both our mom
and our dad and this movie,which is rare, for I mean, like
we, there's a lot of movies weassociate with dad.

(02:05):
There's quite a few weassociate with our stepdad.
There's a lot fewer that weassociate with mom.
Yep, so, but this one Iassociate with her and with dad.
So it's, that's about what Ican call up.
Uh, off the top of my head,yeah, so tell me, why are we
talking about Mr Mom today?

Speaker 1 (02:28):
This is one of the ones that like.
So when we're planning, youknow, we have this whole like
listeners, we have this wholelike spreadsheet of like movies
that we were like oh, we shouldtalk about, and and when we sit
down to plan, we try and likemix it up so that we're not
doing like all Muppets all thetime.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
We would do that.

Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yes, entirely be deep thoughts about the Muppets, if
possible, and you know we, weWe've done a couple of you know
sort of serious ones.
We just did Alien, and you know.
So I was looking for a comedyand I don't know why this one

(03:09):
like recaptured my imaginationwhen I saw the name on our
spreadsheet, but I remember itsort of um, scaring and charming
me.
Like scaring because like, well, the clothes washer and the

(03:32):
vacuum cleaner, but also the, um, the, the whoopee, and uh, jack
Michael Keaton's character haslike a favorite shirt that he
burns and he tries to get theson Kenny to burn his who, his
whoopee.
That was very scary to me.
That someone would say that youcan't have your security

(03:55):
blanket past five years old,that was very upsetting to me.
I actually can remember aconversation with dad where he
was like that's silly, like itdoesn't hurt anybody, you can
keep it as long as you want, andlike being very reassured by
that.
Listeners, I had a securitypillow, my special pillow.

Speaker 2 (04:15):
I'm just going to go ahead and admit I still have
both my, I had two.
I had a blankie and quilty,because naming yeah, me too.
Me too, I mean, the pillow wascalled special pillow and I
still have both, although I cutup pieces of blankie a little
bit to make my son's baby quilt.

(04:35):
That has not been finished yetand the baby is 14.
And I still, I still sleep withthem because you can have it
into your forties because ithurts no one Right.

Speaker 1 (04:51):
Well, and even actually it's funny cause
there's a scene where, um, thedad, michael Keaton, is trying
to convince the kid to give upthe whoopee and he says it
starts with these blankets, andthen, you know, it just gets
more and more and it's like ait's a joke about, like drug
addiction, but then he's talkingabout, and then you're, it just
gets more and more and it'slike a it's a joke about, like
drug addiction, but then he'stalking about, and then you're a
kid and it's just like full-on,you're an adult and it's
full-on bedspreads.
I'm like exactly, exactly, jack, it's full-on bedspreads.

(05:19):
It's not like it's not drugs.
Emily's sitting there with acomforter on her lap.

Speaker 2 (05:25):
It's down filled, which I call my Wisconsin toga.
We're recording this on January7th and it is cold outside.
It is cold and I do considerblankets to be day wear and
constantly walk around the housewith them around my shoulders.

Speaker 1 (05:47):
See, it started with blanking and quilting.
Maybe Jack was onto something.
Anyway, All right, so that'swhy we're talking about it.
Fond childhood memories and andand like looking to remember
what I do remember of it, withthe sort of so-called gender
swap, uh, in terms of theirroles, Like I was really curious
about how that might hold upfrom 1983 to 2025 here.
So that's why we're talkingabout it, and mostly we're going

(06:11):
to talk about gender really,and actually we're going to talk
about masculinity, which thismovie actually holds up better
than I expected in some ways.
So so I really want to talkabout masculinity and and gender
in general and sort of genderroles in terms of like what we

(06:33):
do, like like the actual tasksin the household and the ways in
which like tasks have beengendered, Like this movie really
gets into that, and there's alittle, a little bit.
I want to talk about work andlike it's curious that Jack is a

(06:54):
um, Michael Keaton's character.
Jack is a, an auto worker inDetroit, and yet we don't hear
about unions at all, Like it'snot actually about labor, which
is kind of interesting unions atall, Like it's not actually
about labor, which is kind ofinteresting.

Speaker 2 (07:06):
Yeah, that is really fascinating.
I had no memory of what his jobwas.

Speaker 1 (07:09):
That he got laid off from.
Yeah.
So I think we're going to talka lot about work and about
gender and how those thingsoverlap and also sort of what
the messages were about thosethings through this film.
But before we get there, let mesee if I can give a synopsis of

(07:31):
the plot.
So Act 1, we open with thisscene.
We see it's their home.
So, as you say, michael Keaton,jack Butler and his wife Carolyn
Butler, played by Terry Garr.
They have three kids, all underseven it seems.
So two boys, alex and Kenny,and I think they're meant to be

(07:54):
about six and four, maybe inthat, or seven and five
somewhere in that range.
And then, like a one year olddaughter, megan, and we see it's
a morning, so we see themgetting ready for the day.
So Carolyn wakes up.
The boys, jack is getting readyfor work.
We see them at the breakfasttable.

(08:14):
Jack is like rushing, he getslike one bite of his toast and
then there's a honk and it's theguys for the carpool picking
him up.
So he like gives everybodykisses and he leaves.
And so we're, we'reestablishing from the beginning
his sort of like traditionalmale breadwinner outside the
homework, like not fully presentor not present much in the home

(08:39):
and her, like all the thingsthat that are falling.
Tolyn in the car ride to workbecause we follow the viewer
follows jack.
So and the the star power inthis movie is pretty incredible.
Like I think, michael keatonwas a rising star, terry gar was
known because she'd alreadybeen in um close encounters.

(08:59):
The guys in the car with jackare his co, so Jeffrey Tambor is
the boss, he's the driver, andthen the two guys and then
Jack's in the passenger seat andthe two guys in the backseat
are Christopher Lloyd and TomLeopold.
So some star power.
I think even in 1983, theseguys, if they weren't already
household names, they were aboutto become household names,

(09:21):
right.
So they're on their way.
They're all in suits, sothey're like management.
But this is Detroit, they'reengineers, so we follow them and
they're nervous.
They're afraid about layoffs.
Jeffrey Tambor, who is the boss, his name, the character's name
is Jinx.

(09:42):
He assures them that it's goingto be okay because he likes
splitting the gas money fourways.
So he is assuring these threeguys that they're safe.
The next scene cut to the scene.
Jack is actually on top of hissuit.
He's wearing protective gearand is on the line and talking
to some of the guys who actuallywork the line, he's just kind

(10:05):
of.
He's just kind of shooting theshit, right, and he says are you
worried about the lions?
So that's part of the way.
We're reminded that we're inDetroit and there's they say, no
man, we're worried about thelines, the unemployment line,
the food line, like you know.
So like we're seeing that these.
And then there's this he triesto give them a pep talk, talking
about rocky, which he hasn'tactually seen.

(10:26):
So they're like which rocky?
Who is he fighting?
Was his manager alive or dead?
And he's like he has no ideabecause he hasn't actually seen
the movie that feels like such amiddle management thing to do
he's so funny.
So then, and like so he's savedby the bell when, like, the
intercom comes and says JackButler, to the management office

(10:46):
, please.
And as he's walking away,camera stays with these three
guys who are line workers andthey're like he's never seen
Rocky and like he's in trouble.
They know he's in trouble.
So he gets up to the office andit turns out the two guys who
were in the back seat have justbeen laid off and Jack is like
come on, guys, it'll be okay,you'll get another job.

(11:08):
And they're like no, you'refired too.
And then, after he'd just beencounseling them, he attacks Jinx
, goes after him and it'sridiculous, tambor's.
Jinx says it's not like, I'msending you away with nothing.
You're technically furloughed,you guys are great engineers,
you'll land on your feet, you'regetting severance, you're

(11:28):
getting this, you're gettingwhatever.
And then he pulls cash out andhe's like and here's your gas
money back for this month.
There's a lot of like slapstickhijinks that happen, where
they're like attacking eachother and pulling each other off
or pushing each other.
Anyway, okay, we cut back tohome.
Jack is getting out of a cab.

(11:50):
I'm going to be, you know,saying to the guys.
I'm going to be okay.
They clearly have gone to a bar.
And um, carolyn and the threekids are like all dressed up
like meeting him at the door,like cause and the, and she's
like, don't, don't mention it,don it, don't mention it.
He, he didn't get fired, he gotlaid off, but don't mention it.
And, um, like almost the momenthe walks in the door, the

(12:12):
middle kid, kenny, the one whohas the whoopee, says sorry, you
got fired, dad, like almost themoment the jack walks in the
door.
So are they dressed up just towelcome him home or are they
going somewhere no, just towelcome him home.

Speaker 2 (12:24):
or are they going somewhere, no, just to welcome
him home?

Speaker 1 (12:27):
Just to let him know that they're proud of him and
they're going to be okay.
And I don't know, as they'recleaning up from dinner, he says
I'm going to get another job.
It's going to be fine, I'mgoing to start applying.
I've already put feelers out.
And she says you know, I thinkmaybe I'm going to do the same.

(12:49):
And he's like what are youtalking about?
And she said well, you know, Iworked a couple of years in
advertising and I have a collegedegree I might as well put it
to work.
And he reacts with with malefragility to that, like he gets
agitated and he says you thinkyou can get a job before me?
And she's like I didn't saythat.
And it's not a competition,know.
And he says let's put a bet up.
And she's like no, I don't bet.
He says a hundred dollars toyour one.
So he insists.
She actually never accepts thebet, but he insists.

(13:12):
He shows her 100 bucks and helends her a dollar and gives and
like pull, like invites thekids in, like the kids hold the
money and the bet is who willget a job first, money, and the
bet is who will get a job first.
And then cut to the very nextscene Yikes, yeah, it's pretty

(13:34):
bad.
I'm watching this going like,ooh, he's kind of a dick.
I don't remember him being adick.
Cut to the very next scene.
She's in a very, veryfashionable 1980s power suit for
her first day on the job.
He's like take the money,carolyn.
She's like I don't want to takethe money.
I don't take bets, I didn't betthis was on you.
I don't want the money.
And then should we go over thelist again?
I don't want to go over thelist again.
Okay, let's go over the listagain.

(13:54):
Like all the things he has todo, since he's now a
stay-at-home parent.
He says something else that'slike kind of obnoxious and she's
like you know what?
I will take that money.

Speaker 2 (14:04):
I'm like way to go, carolyn.

Speaker 1 (14:09):
So we follow him.
I don't remember what order, itdoesn't matter.
He has to drop off.
The oldest kid goes to schoolonly for half a day, so he's got
all three kids in the car andhe's doing it wrong.
And this I remember veryclearly.
I don't know if you do, you'redoing it wrong.
This is not how mom does it.

(14:29):
You're doing it wrong.
So, drop off.
We enter from the south at dropoff and from the north at
pickup or whatever it is, and Iactually don't.
It might be the reverse.
But one of the grownups is likehi, jack, I'm Annette.
You're doing it wrong.
So the next several minutes ofthe film are further proof that

(14:52):
he's doing it wrong.
Okay, so there's the washingmachine which you remember,
where he shoves so, so manyclothes into the washing
machines.
It's a front loader and one ofthe kids is like I think that's
too much, I think that's toofull.
And he's like no, we can getplenty in there.
And he like uses his foot tolike push more clothes in.
And then we see him like thendo the detergent.

(15:16):
And he's like filling this cup.
I mean he's got like two cupsof powder detergent.
And then like he's like oh, Ican save some time and he throws
fabric softener in the cup andthen borax and he's like
stirring it all up.
And and then three differentrepair people show up not

(15:38):
exactly the same moment, butthey're all there at the same
time.
So the TV repair person,there's the exterminator and a
guy who says he needs to checkthe pilot on the water heater.
So they're all there.
The baby has knocked over ahouse plant and he needs to find
the vacuum cleaner, which iscalled Jaws and like hijinks

(16:02):
ensue.
Right, the washing machine iswalking and the kids have asked
if they can make lunch andthey're making chili.
The smoke detector gets set offfrom the chili that the kids
are trying to make and it's nuts.
So proof that he's inept atthis whole housework thing, at

(16:30):
this whole housework thing.
Meanwhile, carolyn at work isbeing taken to a meeting by
another woman who works at thecompany and she's clearly
judging Carolyn.
And Carolyn refers to theirboss by his first name.
She calls him Ron and the otherwoman says who's Ron?
And Carolyn's like Ron,richardson, and the other

(16:51):
woman's like we all call him MrRichardson.
And Carolyn's like well, heinvited me to call him Ron at my
interview at lunch and theother woman gives her this look.
So we see immediately first dayon the job.
At least this other womanbelieves that Carolyn's been
hired because of her looks.
The other woman says let megive you a piece of advice Keep

(17:12):
your head down and your mouthshut and maybe you'll learn
something.
So they go into this room andit's like the cigarette smoke is
just like hazy and they're liketalking about stuff and like
they have all these boards upall over.
And we learned that the clientthey're talking about is
schooner tuna and it was thevery first client that Mr

(17:35):
Richardson's dad, who foundedthe agency, ever got.
So it's a very important clientto them and it's there they
need to figure out how to sellmore tuna.
It's just not working.
And carolyn starts likecleaning up.
There's like all this trash onthe table and uh.
Mr richardson's like, uh, youdon't need to do that.
We have people.

(17:56):
And she's like sorry, it'shabit.
And then he asks for heropinion and she's like I mean,
none of is very good.
And they're kind of likelaughing at her.
But she's like when's the lasttime any of you were actually in
a grocery store?
Like none of this would make mewant to buy this tuna.
So she's been given this adviceto keep her head down.

(18:16):
But Mr Richardson asks herdirectly what she thinks.
So we're seeing that, like Jackis inept, carolyn is proving
herself even though people areskeptical about her.
There's a montage where we seelots of time go by.
Carolyn is doing well at workand starts working longer hours

(18:39):
and coming home late.
Jack initially can't believeanybody would actually watch
soap operas and then becomesreally enamored with them.
He's like wearing the sameflannel shirt all the time.
One of his kids comes up and islike Dad, this grilled cheese

(18:59):
is like barely toasty and thecheese is barely melty.
And he's like fine, give ithere.
And he like puts the iron on it.
I remember that, remember that.
To give it here.
And he like puts the iron on it.
I remember that, remember that.
To like warm it up.
And then he like goes to get itand it's like stuck to the
bottom of the iron.
He pulls it off and hands itback to the kid.
Because he's like staring atthe little tube TV watching the
Young and the Restless and he'sfallen in with, like a group of

(19:22):
moms, including Joan who isplayed by anne jillian and she
is the sort of I was gonna sayfemme fatale, but I don't know
that that's really the righttrope, but she's she's the
blanche yeah, and she sees himat the grocery store and helps

(19:47):
him out and, like her boobs areon display all the time, like on
purpose for him.
In fact, at one point he'sdriving away and Annette, who we
met when she said you're doingit wrong, is standing next to
Joan and says he's married.
And Joan says so, were we once?
Oh goodness, were we once?
Okay, so so that's happening.

(20:09):
Mr Richardson is the personwhose steak she cuts.
They're actually on a planeit's like a fancy chartered
plane and they're eating andhe's sort of saying, like you
know, we're going to be have tobe working long hours, so if
this is going to be a problem,you need to let me know now.
And they're getting looks fromthe same woman, eve, who

(20:29):
initially said you know, keepyour head down.
And another like person in thecompany they're they're totally
giving side eye.
And she's like no, my husbandsupports me, it's, it's fine.
At one point, jack and Carolynhave an argument, because he's
like just letting himself go,like he's got this big beard,

(20:50):
and he says what do you thinkabout the beard?
Does it remind you of a moviestar?
Something like that.
And she says, yeah, orson,welles, oh goodness.
And then.
So they argue about that, he'sI'm gonna go sleep on the couch,
on the fat couch, and then jackplays poker with the girls and
they're playing for coupons,like that's the currency that

(21:12):
they're betting with.
Carolyn comes home and shelooks in the window as jones
like leaning into jack, likelike really pushing her breasts
into jack, into jack's view, andcarolyn sees it and gets a
little agitated.
Jack has this sort of Young andthe Restless inspired fantasy

(21:33):
dream sequence where Joan comesover dressed in a trench coat,
over like a nightie, and all thethings that Carolyn has been
sort of complaining about, likethe flannel, the things that
carolyn has been sort ofcomplaining about, like the
flannel, the beard, the extraweight.
Joan's like no, I the, I lovethe beard.
I like a man with a littleextra meat on his bones.

(21:55):
Flannel gets me hot.
So they kiss.
Carolyn comes in, she shoots himand this is in the dream, it's
all in the dream.
It's all.
It's very like campy over thetop, because it's like young and
the restless inspired, so likehe says you can't shoot me.
The kids are, it's all.
It's very like campy over thetop, because it's like young and
the restless inspired, so likehe says you can't shoot me.
The kids are just outside, eventhough it's like raining cats
and dogs, and she says, oh, Ithought of the kids.
And she like puts a silencer onthe gun.

(22:17):
And when she does shoot him,like he ends up like falling and
there's already like a chalkoutline on the carpet and he's
not quite in it.
So he like gets up and looksand like scooches over a bit and
then like joan is looking overhim and like, and then mr
richardson comes in and he'slike, geez, what did you use at
38?
She says, oh, 38, 39, whateverit took, which is a tag back

(22:39):
from earlier, when I think it'sbecause they're traveling.
Mr richardson picks her up in alimo and jack is uh intimidated
and like tries to intimidate mrrichardson by like putting on
overalls and like greeting him,like holding a chainsaw that's
on and says the renovations he'sdoing to the house, that he's

(23:00):
going to rewire it, andrichardson says, oh, you're
going to make it all 220.
He says yeah, 220, 221,whatever it takes.
So there's 38, 39, whatever ittakes was the tag back from
earlier, so it's it's campy overthe top.
And then we see the credits rollon the young, the restless and
jack like kind of like, comes tolike sitting on the couch

(23:23):
watching it and is like, looksat his head is his himself and
like, looks at the shirt.
There's no, because his firstreaction when he gets shot is
like, looks at his head is hishimself and like, looks at the
shirt.
There's no, because his firstreaction when he gets shot is
like, damn, I love this shirt.
Um, the shirt doesn't have ahole in it and he's like oh, you
know, it's just a dream,whatever.
That's kind of like a wake upcall for him to like get his
shit together.
We see him shave the beard.

(23:44):
We see him exercising.
We see him kind of like getstuff together.
Like he creates like a remotecontrol for jaws, the vacuum
cleaner he gets.
He's getting the kids up withlike a bugle, like he's got,
he's got it down.
And then he's even the one thatlike traffic guard at the
school, like south for pickup,you know, north for drop off,

(24:09):
whatever, like he's, he's got it.
Meanwhile, mr humphries, who isthe schooner tuna head ceo,
whatever, like doesn't?
He doesn't like any of theirideas, like it's really bad.
But then carolyn pitches him toinstead of giving away stupid
shit, which is what they've beendoing just lower the price and

(24:32):
actually sort of say like weknow, these are hard economic
times and so we're going tolower the price of the cans by
50 cents a can and our priceswill go back to normal when
we're through this, these hardtimes, but in the meantime we'll
get through this together.
That's her pitch.
Mr Humphries loves it and it'sone of those moments that is

(24:55):
amazing and in some ways veryfeminist, and then gets undercut
, which is period typical.
Actually I'm not mad at JohnHughes for this, but Mr
Richardson thinks that MrSchooner doesn't like it.
He's starting to apologize.
I'm like I'm sorry, mr Schooner, and Schooner's like you're
damn right, you're sorry.
Where have you been hiding thislittle girl?

(25:16):
Yeah, oh, my God, yeah.
So she has to go to LA to bethere to film the commercial on
the pitch that she gave.
And it's Halloween and the kidsare all dressed up and Jack is
really upset that she's leaving,that she's missing.

(25:37):
He says you gave me a piece ofadvice once and I want to give
it back to you.
It's really easy to forget theimportant things, so don't
really easy to forget theimportant things, so don't.
There's also a scene between,like after he's kind of gotten
his stuff together, where he andthe kids like make dinner and
he sets the table like withcandles and stuff, like waiting

(25:57):
for her to come home, and we seehim like waiting and like
really bored, like balancing thewine cork on his head and then
he ends up eating.
She gets home really late.
There's a note on the tablethat says there's food in the
fridge and the chef is waitingfor you in bed, or something
like that.
So we see that the sort oftypical like overwork and
feeling neglected gender roleshave been swapped in multiple

(26:21):
ways After the Halloween thing.
Now she's in LA.
The commercial is like tediousand boring and blah, blah, blah.
Jack goes out with the girls.
They kind of ambush him andtake him to a male review with

(26:42):
male strippers.
This is the scene that, like, Iwas pleasantly surprised by.
So he's the only dude in thissea of women, three dancers
wearing like space suits.
And he says so, I'm guessingthese are not the guys from the
space shuttle.
And then they start likestripping.

(27:04):
The girls are like I think he'scoming for you, jack, and he
like gives one of them a dollar.
He's like where's he putting it?
No, don't tell me, don't tellme.
And like he's like averting hiseyes.
But it really does not devolveinto homophobia, like at all.
I was really pleasantlysurprised.
So we see them like dropping himoff at home and he says here, I

(27:26):
think you guys might want thismore than I do.
And they're like what is it?
He says it's that dancer'sphone number.
He goes in and Annette is therewith the kids, are all asleep
on her, and he says I see whyyou offered to sit, you knew
what they were doing.
And the kids are up and theysay I want to call mommy.
I want to call mommy.
So he's like no, it's, it'slate, she'll be, we'll call her

(27:55):
tomorrow.
And Annette says well, you know, it's only eight, 30 in
California.
So they, they call, now cut thescene, cuts to where Carolyn is
.
Mr Richardson, at the boringphoto shoot, has said hey, do
you want to get dinner afterwe're done here?
And she says no, you know what,I'm so tired, I just want to go
back to the hotel and soak in ahot tub.
That's all I want.
And he says yeah, that soundsgood.
So now it's nighttime.
We see her soaking in a hot tuband then we see Richardson come

(28:22):
into her hotel room with like atray of food and like on a, a
cart, like with wheels and likea hotel guy, and he's like I
really appreciate this.
He's wearing like pajamas and arobe and she, and then he
starts messing with the stereo,which like there were stereos
and hotel rooms, and she's inthe tub and she's like you know

(28:49):
like what?
Like cause she hears the musicchanging and he's looking for
something.
And then it goes to some likeridiculous, like love song or
you know, sexy song, and shecomes out and she's like what
are you doing here, you know.
And he's he just, you know makesa pass at her and she's like
you need to leave now.

(29:09):
And she says you've beendrinking.
And he says yes, I have, and.
And then he's like you shoulddivorce Jack and marry me and
then you can become a partner.
And she was like get out nowand he doesn't, so she punches
him, and he doesn't, so shepunches him.

(29:35):
So while she was in the tub Iskipped a part, because while
she was in the tub the phonecall went through with Alex.
We see Martin Mull as Ronanswer the phone and say Alex,
who?

Speaker 2 (29:45):
And then Alex, is the oldest kid.

Speaker 1 (29:48):
Yes, so Alex hands the receiver to his dad and he
says Jack says, is CarolynButler there?
And Maul says who is this?
Or he says she's in the tub,who is this?
And Jack says this is herhusband.
Who the hell is this?
And then Richardson hangs up.

(30:10):
So after we see her punch him,we cut back to the Butler home.
Annette is still there.
The phone is ringing.
She says Jack, it's the fourthtime it's rung in the last hour.
Maybe you should answer it.
And he freaks out oh, you wantme to answer it, you want me to
answer it.
And he like rips the cord outof the wall and like throws it.

(30:31):
And that's like okay, so I cansee you want to be alone, so
I'll just go.
And then the TV is on in thebackground and it's some I don't
know something that sets himoff and he like kicks it, like
smashes the tube and like kicksthe TV.
So the next morning Joan showsup, the kids are all painted.

(30:57):
He and she says I see you had alot of nervous energy Like he's
been like like doing stuff inthe house, like painted the
dining room.
The kids are painting whatever.
The the TV repair person isthere because of the shoe and
the TV and Joan is like clearlylike stepping up her flirtation

(31:21):
and he knows it.
So he actually like leaves herdownstairs to like go take a
shower.
He's in the shower and hearsher come into the bedroom and
she is like she lays down on thebed.
She's like, oh, it's, and she.
So she calls to him through thebathroom door I love what

(31:43):
you've done in here, orsomething like that.
She's got like a drink on atray and he starts talking to
himself like A, she wants you.
B, like going through lettersand like the joke is then that
like we see him like wipe thesteam off the mirror and be like
M and then later like why, whydid I get rid of that?

(32:04):
We'll be, and anyway.
So Joan is on the bed, he's inthe in the bathroom shower still
running.
Carolyn shows up, she like a acab lets her out and she's like
coming in.
She sees the kids kind of allpainted and where's dad?
He's upstairs.

(32:24):
And she goes upstairs and findsJoan in her bed and she says
Joan, carolyn, what are youdoing here?
I live here.
What are you doing here in mybedroom?
You know.
Anyway, we cut back to Jack whogoes Z, you aren't going to do

(32:46):
anything, pal, because you're inlove with your wife.
So he comes out of the bathroomand goes Joan, carolyn, says
Jack.
He says Carolyn.
She says, well, now that we'vegot the names right, tell me why
did I find Joan in our bedroom?
And then so they kind of argue.

(33:07):
He says why did Richardsonanswer your hotel room phone?
And I could hear champagnebubbling in the background.
She says you could hear that.
He says see, doorbell rings.
It's Jinx, jeffrey Tambor, theboss.
He's come to beg for Jack tocome back.
We had a scene where it was madeclear that Jinx was like lying

(33:30):
to management and sort ofsuggesting that Jack had been
doing something wrong.
It's very unclear exactly whatthe lie was, but Jinx is not to
be trusted.
So Jinx is there, like begginghim to come back.
He said whatever you need, Ineed you to come back.
I've been lying and I, and theycaught me and I need you to

(33:50):
come back and you can haveanything.
You want Full salary, companycar, do you want a company car?
The exterminator's there again,the TV guy's there again.
And then, um, mr Richardsonshows up and he's got like tape
over his nose because she'sbroken his nose.
And she says then we learnedshe quit last night.

(34:13):
And the TV repair gal's likedid he make a pass at you?
And Richardson says I got alittle out of hand.
And she says I don't need thatjob, I can get another job, I
can get a better job.
And he's like we need you, theclient loves you, we need you

(34:33):
back.
So, with the help of the servicepeople, jack says to the
exterminator he's offering me myfull salary on a company car.
Should I take it?
And the guy's like yeah, youshould take it, should I take it
?
And the guy's like yeah, youshould take it.
And the TV repair gal is likewell, carolyn's like it was too

(34:54):
many hours.
I miss my family.
So the repair gal's like whatabout three days at home and two
days in the office, or viceversa?
And so Jack says I don't make amove without Larry and Stan,
which are the two other guys whogot fired at the same time.
Jink says fine, and we sort ofthe movie ends with like the two

(35:20):
repair people negotiating withthe two bosses, jack and Caitlin
, sort of like arms around eachother.
So that's how it ends.
I was all out of order.
Anyway, doesn't matter matteryou get the picture.
So I think this film like Iguess, squeaky passes bechdel,
because in the conversation witheve, who is the other woman who
works there, when eve is sortof judging her for calling him

(35:44):
Ron, they are talking about Ron,but then she does say keep your
head down, or whatever.

Speaker 2 (35:51):
So what about when Carolyn and Joan are talking
about, like what are you doinghere?
I live here.
What are you doing in mybedroom?

Speaker 1 (36:00):
Like that's not specifically about Jack, that's
yeah, I'd buy that, I buy thatyeah.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
And then, just to remind our listeners, we're
talking about the Bechdel test,which asks three questions Is
there more than one woman in themovie?
Do do the women have names?
Do they speak to each otherabout something other than a man
or a boy?
Right and simple yes.
No for each one.

Speaker 1 (36:24):
Thanks, yeah, I guess , I guess I could.
I'll follow you there.
It's it's like gray but.
But if it's a simple yes, no,then yeah, so that's cool.
I mean, and and to a certainextent this falls into the like
really toxic trope, uh, aroundsort of essentialist, gender

(36:50):
essentialism around householdtasks, sort of the idea that men
are inept and the men who arenot inept at household tasks are
somehow effeminate or feminizedor not real men.
And in some ways it subvertsthat because he makes each of
the tasks that we see him bad atin the beginning his own and

(37:10):
because it humanizes him and forhim, it humanizes Carolyn,
because they have a conversationwhere, when she's sort of like
you're letting yourself go, he'slike my mind is oatmeal, like
I'm watching the same shows asMegan the one-year-old and I
like it.
Like I'm watching the sameshows as Megan the one-year-old
and I like it.
Like I can't like.
He's sort of expressing likehow mind-gumming it is and she's

(37:33):
like you think I don't know Ilived it.
He says why didn't you tell meyou were so unhappy?
And she says I actually wasn'tunhappy.
I was proud of this house, Iwas proud of this family, I was
proud to you know whatever.
I was proud of this house, Iwas proud of this family, I was
proud to you know, whatever.
So it's like kind of like walk,like, like dancing around that

(37:53):
line Right, and Jack makes thetasks his own.
He actually does find a way tobe competent at them.
So we both have him in the verybeginning, like the first time
he goes grocery shopping, on thelist is Kotex, and he is deeply
embarrassed to buy Kotex, whichis like and like so inept.

(38:15):
He's so inept that he knocksshit down at every turn.
So we keep hearing over theintercom clean up on aisle six,
irv Like so much so that, likeat the end, irv clean up on
aisle seven and Jack's like Irv.

Speaker 2 (38:29):
I wasn't even near aisle seven.

Speaker 1 (38:32):
Because it's him every single time.
So we have that in this movie.
This like that femininity isembarrassing.
But then we also have him finda certain amount of competence
at it in a way that is notdoesn't diminish him.

(38:55):
Some of the folks on that Iread who were sort of
complaining about this film,said that they didn't like that
the ending kind of returned themto normal and, like sent them
back to their gender roles.
I argue with those commentatorsbecause it didn't.
She doesn't.
I mean she quit her job becauseher boss made a pass at her,

(39:20):
but it looks like she's going toaccept this new negotiated like
hybrid working, which still notfair to carolyn, because no
doubt in her two days a week athome or three days a week at
home, she's gonna have to bedoing oh, the lion's share of
the housework yeah, jack hasn'tnegotiated.

Speaker 2 (39:43):
No, three days a week , no, he'll be five days a week
at the office.

Speaker 1 (39:47):
Uh, so it's, it's still not fair to carolyn, but
it's not quite the sort ofreturn to normalcy, so-called,
that I think the commentatorsthat I was reading were feeling
like then kind of undid the workthat had been done in the
previous, you know, 85 minutesof the movie.
It's also the case that likepart of the trope is like that

(40:16):
sort of shrug and like ha, boyswill be boys, they, you know, of
course he can't do women's work, you know, and then like he
doesn't have to, is, I think thetrope that we've been given,
you know, like well, I mean,this movie is, is it?
But that's actually not whathappens.

(40:37):
That's just how it starts, andthat's true for any task that we
haven't done before, and so andpart of the takeaway for jack
is how fucking hard it is, andso I feel like it's more nuanced

(41:02):
than just the kind of like mencan't do women's work because
they're men and it's women'swork.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:14):
So so those are.
That's some of the ways that Ifeel, like I was pleasantly
surprised and like, looking backat it, I'm like, actually, this
is not as bad as I thought thatit was going to be.

Speaker 2 (41:23):
Well, and that that would explain why mom liked it
well, and that that wouldexplain why mom liked it.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
yeah, yeah.
Now on the flip side, um, someof the things that by 2025 eyes,
I'm just like oh hell, no, arethat?
Ron richardson is like I maybegot carried away and that's it,
there's no consequences.
That's the extent of theconsequence and that he's going

(41:52):
to have to pay her more or like,except you know she has now the
negotiating power.
Like that, that's theconsequences to him and a broken
nose.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
Well and yeah, in the real world he could have very
easily pressed charges againsther for breaking his nose.

Speaker 1 (42:09):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:11):
Because I don't even know what kind of laws there
were against sexual harassmentin 1983.

Speaker 1 (42:16):
Yeah, yeah, so that like really is really bothersome
to me bothersome to me.

Speaker 2 (42:28):
It also like we've talked a little bit before about
how we, especially movies madein the eighties.
There is this, and it kind ofbecause it was true, this sense
that that is just the price ofbeing a woman.

Speaker 1 (42:36):
Yeah, in the workforce Totally.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:38):
Totally yeah.
So that that is how that reads.
Yeah, and it's.
It's bothersome.
Today there's another scene,like talking about gender and
masculinity that I didn't evenname, where there's this
ridiculous party at Richardson's, like estate, where they do
these games that are like absurdgames that the dudes all take

(42:58):
part in, so it's all the workers.
But then Richardsonpassive-aggressively, like goads
Jack into playing as well.
So think like running races butwearing big flippers and like
tricycle races on, like slalomsand stuff.
And the guys who work at theagency make it clear that they

(43:18):
lose on purpose becauseRichardson needs to win for his
ego and Jack's like I don't workfor him and they're like, yeah,
but your wife does.
And Jack is winning and Eveturns to him like it's near the
finish line.
Eve turns to Carolyn and is likewhat's he doing?
And she's like winning.
And then he looks over and seesEve kind of freaking out,

(43:40):
talking to Carolyn and Jackthrows it.
He falls intentionally.
And then we see richardson likecelebrating, like popping
champagne, like he actually wonsomething and that sort of like
that competitive masculinityaround stupid shit, like really

(44:03):
reads as an indictment of toxicmasculinity.
But also jack buys into it andcarolyn buys into it because she
says I owe you one for havingthrown the race, yeah, which
again sort of like what you'resaying, like it's like a time
capsule, kind of like it wasit's period accurate and I think

(44:27):
it was an indictment as much as1983 was able to give of that
kind of like competitive, likewho's got the bigger dick, kind
of masculinity that is stillhappens today uh absolutely, but
I just I hope we can critiqueit more strongly than this than

(44:51):
that scene was able to do.
So I mean, to a certain extent,I feel like this film really
gave us a critique of masculineand feminine coded roles and
identities that were needed, andI think that Hughes actually

(45:12):
went as far as he was able in 83.
So looking back at it now, I'mlike it didn't go far enough,
but I think it went pretty farfor 83.

Speaker 2 (45:22):
It's a 42 year old movie, yeah.

Speaker 1 (45:24):
Yeah, so that's, that's kind of where I'm landing
.
On the gender stuff.
Now, one thing I didn't talkabout at all, except in the
introduction, is sort of laborand work.
And there's, it's just, it'slike it's kind of like backdrop,

(45:44):
it's like significant but alsonot text.
It's only subtext, right,because there's a labor that's
being done in the home, which isobvious.
I mean, that is text to acertain extent.
But then we also have the laborof the long hours that Carolyn
is expected to work for whatreally feels like stupid stuff,

(46:06):
you know, like the owner of theschooner tuna is made to look
absolutely ridiculous.
There's we see assembly lineworkers from the automaker and
yet we never really there's notext about their work or working

(46:27):
conditions or the consequencesfor them.
They're just comic relief to acertain extent.
We see the interactions betweenJeffrey Tambor's Jinx, who is a
schmuck, and the other threeguys who are also sort of middle
, who are middle management.

(46:47):
I mean, I think they're meantto be engineers but they're
definitely, you know, the whitecollar side of the automaker I.

Speaker 2 (46:54):
I want to say the like.
We can make this more efficient.

Speaker 1 (46:58):
Load up the washer as full as possible is very
engineer coded you know, in thatmoment he says when I was in
the army I ran a tight ship andone of the kids goes dad, there
are no ships in the army.
The more efficient about thesave time with the detergent and

(47:20):
the other stuff all in thewasher at the same time also
feels that way.

Speaker 2 (47:24):
That's very engineer coded.

Speaker 1 (47:28):
So I don't actually have a whole lot to say about it
.
I mean, and I think maybethat's kind of why some of the
commentators are like this is asitcom because it really did
just.
I mean, it's set with the autoindustry and the downturn in the
economy as the backdrop and itnever actually talks about it.
I mean it is significantbecause that's the pitch that

(47:49):
carolyn makes as the advertisingagency to lower the price of
the cans instead of doing stupidgimmicks.
But it's not actually the text,it's just sort of backdrop and
I don't know that I have acritique of that exactly, but I
wanted to note it.

Speaker 2 (48:09):
So something that this is bringing up for me the
fact that Jack never thoughtabout what his wife's day-to-day
life was like which I think isnot uncommon, which I think is
not uncommon, but it issomething that's like did he

(48:33):
actually never think about it ordid he choose not to ever think
about it?

Speaker 1 (48:36):
Well, I think there's an extra like there's.
I want to put a finer point onthis, on your point here,
because it wasn't worth thinkingabout, right?
It's not even like choosing notto think about it, the way that
I'm like choosing not to thinkabout something that, like,
bothers me or that doesn'tinterest.
It didn't interest him.

(48:57):
It was beneath him.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
Yes, I, there's a and I'll link to it in the show
notes.
Um, there's a, an essay fromlike the late sixties or early
seventies.
So a woman in the like thatsecond wave feminist movement,
writing an essay about how Iwant a wife, because a wife
takes care of all these things.
And then she talks about howher partner comes in and says

(49:21):
what are you writing about?
And she ends with saying, like,well, I'm writing about
housework.
And he says, why would youwrite about something so trivial
?
So, so, yeah, that's that, that, that's, that's exactly it.
But that gets to.
Men in over and over again arenot thinking about the

(49:42):
experience of women.
So the reason why carolyn doeswell at the ad agency is because
, like, she's actually beengrocery shopping and none of the
other executives have been, andit's presumably they're all men
.

Speaker 1 (49:57):
It's like there's, I think there's like two other
women in the room of, in a roomof like 12 to 15 people.

Speaker 2 (50:03):
Yeah, and it's been made clear like keep your head
down and your mouth shut.
So the other women are doingthat, and had Richardson not
been attracted to Carolyn, hewouldn't have invited her to
speak, Maybe.
And so like they're ignoringthe experience of the people who
are their target market?
Yeah, and then Richardsonhimself is ignoring Carolyn's

(50:29):
experience, like not thinkingabout what would it feel like if
my boss came into my hotel room?

Speaker 1 (50:37):
Well, he doesn't just ignore her like his empathetic
thoughts about her experience.
He ignores her words, her wordsyeah, get out.

Speaker 2 (50:48):
She could not have been clearer you to leave, she
says yeah, that level of like,just glossing over, like women's
experiences, women's words,women's preferences, women's
wants don't matter yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:04):
Yeah, and I think sort of the core story of this,
which apparently is likesomewhat like based on a John
Hughes experience where he hadto stay home because his wife
had a thing for a week orsomething like so and he was in
charge of the young kids it'sthat case of like the man who
doesn't get it till he gets it.

(51:25):
I mean even that sort of theconversation that he has when,
when, but that they have whenshe says you think I don't know.

Speaker 2 (51:33):
I've been living it for eight years.

Speaker 1 (51:35):
Um and and and that and then that, like why didn't
you tell me you were unhappy,like that.
That line actually feels reallysignificant to me and her
response is I wasn't unhappy,but he is, and so there's
something like now that's before, he has his sort of like, gets

(51:58):
his shit together and makes ithis own.
But that feels reallysignificant in sort of the what
I said before about recognizingthe labor that she was doing.
I think that's the sort ofdidn't think it was important,
like I don't want to go over thechecklist again.
Okay, we better go over thechecklist again.
And even with the list, hestill is doing it wrong over and

(52:21):
over and over again.
He's trying to buy meat at thedeli.
Give me ham.
She says the five differentkinds of ham, he doesn't know
what kind.
Okay, well, just give me somecheese.
And then she lists like 20kinds of cheese.
He has no idea how manydecisions, how much work it is.
He didn't get it until he gotit.

Speaker 2 (52:43):
It's kind of like the men who don't understand women
or people until they have adaughter, right?
Uh, it's also it in some waysfeels a little infuriating
because we're still having thesesame.
There's still a huge mentallabor gap, uh, and and household

(53:05):
labor gap, gap between men andwomen, and there are so many
things out there.
There's a card game called FairPlay, based on a book by Yvon
Rodsky called Fair Play, andjust like what you know, he
didn't even think about itbecause it was insignificant to
him.
He didn't even think about itbecause it was insignificant to

(53:28):
him.
Like there is a lot of like.
Oh well, it doesn't matter andit just works out because
someone who recognizes that itmatters, we'll make sure it
happens, because otherwise, youknow the kids are, are are
affected, or you know you're notable to go to work because you
don't have clean clothes, andthere that, that sense of like.

(53:50):
Well, no, my purpose is, youknow, I put on the suit and I go
out in the house and out of thehouse and I work and bring home
the money and that's thecontribution.
It's a bit infuriating becausethere is a sense of like,

(54:11):
because there is a sense of like, intentional myopia, because it
works well for the men who cantake advantage of this system,
whether or not they are fullyaware of it.
And so, on the one hand, it islike heartening that John Hughes

(54:31):
had this realization and he putthis into a movie over 40 years
ago, because, like, people aremore likely to listen when it's
wrapped up in, you know,charming Michael Keaton and
making you laugh, but at thesame time, it's just like why do
we need this?
And then it's because thethings that he is struggling

(54:58):
with in terms of competency arebasic life skills.
This is not arcane knowledge.
And, yeah, you're going to getit wrong with the.
You drop off on the North andpick up on the South.
You're going to get that wrong.
Like, these are things that youdon't know.
You figure it out.
Like you get to the delicounter and you don't know what

(55:18):
kind of ham say.
Like I got three kids.
Do you know what kids like best?
You know, like, what's yourfavorite?
You figure it out.
You don't go oh, this is sohard and right.

Speaker 1 (55:31):
Well, I mean Jack doesn't say, ah, this is so hard
, he just kind of moves on butand holds up the line.
There's a bunch of women behindhim going like come on, man,
make up your mind.

Speaker 2 (55:41):
Yeah, yeah, and it's, it's like that.
That is the um, the, thelearned helplessness is is what
I'm I'm kind of responding to,because I don't accept that from
my kids.
When they're like I don't knowhow to do this, I'm like, okay,
well, what do you do when youdon't know how to do something?

(56:02):
Yeah, and like I have hadmoments like this.
I'm going to try to not telltales out of school, but I'll
mention a friend who was tellingme about how her husband needed
to do, needed to either pick uptheir son or like call the
school or something like that,when normally this was something

(56:24):
my friend would take care ofand like they had that, she had
to like put the task on his list.
And then he said what's thename of the school he goes to,
oh my god.
And she just looked at him andhe's like what, I'll look it up.
This gets into my day job.

(56:46):
I write about finance.
Women are statistically betterinvestors than men are, and it's
because women are not operatingwith unearned confidence and in
fact, they tend to be very shyand nervous about investing, and
so they double and triple checktheir work before they make any
decisions, whereas men are muchmore likely, like I got a hot

(57:08):
tip about this new crypto coinand like put it all in on that,
so, and that's, that's asocializing thing.
Like you know, that is asuperpower for women that comes
from being cut off at the kneesover and over and over and over
and over and over again, butit's just it's.

(57:37):
It feels infuriating that Imean like Jack is is overfilling
the washer and his kids aresaying I don't think this is
going to work and he's like, ah,now I know better.
Yeah, he says that repeatedlyyeah I I do want to ask, since,
since the the woobie worried you, what was going on with that?
I mean, like you said that he'slike you know, he starts with

(57:57):
blankets and by the time you'rean adult, it's full-size
comforters.
Is it just that?

Speaker 1 (58:02):
he shouldn't need it.
I mean, at one point he says to, to, when he's trying to prove
to Carolyn that she's not aspresent.
He says you know?
He says Megan just cut twoteeth.
Did you even know that?
And you know, alex isn't usinghis whoopee anymore, he doesn't
need it.
Did you even know that?
I think it's just sort of.
I think there are those whothink that, you know, security
blankets are childish and shouldbe outgrown.

(58:22):
I think there are those whothink that security blankets are
childish and should be outgrown.
I think it's just that,although he does, at that one
moment when he's given thealphabet to himself, why did I
take the whoopee away?
There's no further explanationthan that given.

Speaker 2 (58:45):
I wonder if the middle child had been a girl,
like the child of the whoopeehad been a girl instead of a boy
, if that would have changedthings about the child having
the I don't know that kind oftough love parenting, which it's
know, it seems a little, hedoes not burn the whoopee, he

(59:05):
burns, he burns his shirt, andthen he invites the child to put
the whoopee in the fire, andthe kid doesn't.

Speaker 1 (59:14):
He runs away and he follows him and that's when he
gives him that talk about youknow.
And then he says how about if I, just you, let me hold the
whoopee for a couple of weeks?
I'll hold onto it and we'll seehow you do without it.
And and and um, kenny acceptsthat, and so he hands the

(59:36):
whoopee over, and then Kennysays I think I need a few
minutes alone.
And Jack is like okay, man,okay.
And so he walks away and westay with the kid who lies down
on his bed on his back, handsbehind his head, like elbows out
, and the camera kind of pansback to see this child in this

(01:00:00):
repose, which I think is meantto show him sort of like
maturing.
So I think it is about sort ofoutgrowing childish things.
You may be right that there'sgender to it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:15):
Well, and I I have heard stories from men and women
, um like our stepfather talksabout his.
His father got rid of his, hislike a security teddy was yeah.
And then a girlfriend of minerecently told me about how she
had hers until she was in her20s and she was visiting an aunt
and uncle and without herknowledge they threw it away in
a dumpster while driving Jesus,so she couldn't even go get it.

(01:00:39):
So I know that that is in thezeitgeist as part of like- I
think it's just in the zeitgeist.

Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
I think it's that sort of sense.
That is childish and one can'tgrow up if one's holding on to
childish things, which listenersI completely reject, because
anything that allows us toself-soothe that is not immoral,
illegal or self-destructivelike why wouldn't we hold on to
it?

Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
Yeah, Well, and I mean props to dad for
recognizing that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:09):
Cause he?
No, he did.
I remember he.
He calmed me with it.
He said you can have yourpillow as long as you want, yeah
.

Speaker 2 (01:01:16):
Yeah, and I never, I never worried about it Like that
, didn't?
I don't remember that being aconcern watching that, that film
, I think, cause I was tooafraid of the washing machine,
but that that also like the factthat it's the father who gets

(01:01:36):
the whoopee away from the kidyeah, it's, I'm sure that that
contributed, I'm sure sure thatyeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
One more thing I want to want to uh point out, or you
know, just kind of mention.
So a lot of times when, um,women complain about men not
doing their fair share at home,men will say, well, it's because
you gatekeep, you know, youdon't let me do it my way.

(01:02:05):
And there is.
There can be some truth to thatin some ways, but oftentimes
it's like it's also a way ofbeing like weaponized
incompetence.

Speaker 1 (01:02:27):
Yes, completely.
I also feel like there's like adouble standard, because a lot
of those same men who say that,like if you were to use
something of theirs and not useit the way that they want it
used, they would freak out youknow, yeah, so so if you like,
if they had, like tools that youdidn't put away or use the way
that they.
You know, like I, the, the wifeis expected to learn to do the

(01:02:53):
thing the way he likes it done.

Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
If he's the sort of owner of it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:57):
I'm putting quotes around the word owner, but if
she's the owner of it and shedoesn't allow the husband to do
it the way he wants it done,then she's gatekeeping and she
doesn't allow the husband to doit the way he wants it done.

Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
Then she's gatekeeping.
Well, and the reason why Iwanted to bring that up is, like
you're talking about when hekind of realizes like no, I
really got to make this work.
He makes these tasks his own,he makes competency his own, and
I don't like I think that's aboth-end moment because, on the
one hand, I think that's reallygreat and something that I think
we need to be teaching,especially young men and boys,

(01:03:45):
as, like they're there, that'swoman's work, or that's not
something for you to do, or it's, it's effeminate, whatever you
know, finding a way for you todo it that you enjoy and feels
good and works with your brain,chemistry and your preferences,
is great.
Like that's that.
Just, you know it doesn'tmatter how the groceries get
brought in, it matters that theyare.
You know it doesn't matter howthe kids get clean and so so,

(01:04:09):
like on the one hand, I thinkthat's great, but on the other,
like it also feels like, come on, man, it's just groceries and
washing.
Like it doesn't.

Speaker 1 (01:04:20):
It doesn't require reinventing the wheel, you can
just do it the same way thatyour mom, your wife, your sister
, you know whatever woman inyour life does it yeah, yeah, in
this movie, though, inparticular, like I think it's
interesting because part of thereason that he is incompetent
with the things in the beginningis because he doesn't do it the
way she does it, like with thewashing machine and even with

(01:04:41):
the vacuum cleaner, like heleaves it sort of unattended and
it's super powerful and pullsthe drapes down and stuff and he
ends up having to like wrestleit, you know.
So it's this movie kind ofgives gives both, you know, and
the things that really matter.
We see him doing it the wayeverybody does, it Drop off from
the North and pick up from theSouth, or whatever it is and the

(01:05:02):
reason Annette gives that is sothat the the kids don't have to
walk through traffic oh, yeah,yeah should be the same every
time because the school's alwayson the same side.
But whatever, um, okay, I feellike I.
We has folks, we had some, um,technical difficulties.
I'm not actually sure how longwe've been talking as I record,

(01:05:23):
but it's been a long time.
It's been 17 hours three weekslater, um, so let me see if I
can do a little synthesis in thedisjointed conversation that we
had that hopefully won't feeldisjointed to our listeners.
So I actually I want to start.
This is I did.

(01:05:43):
I don't know if I said this.
This movie is just really,really funny.
Like Michael Keaton is reallycharming and fun and cute and
he's so thin and young and TerryGarr is beautiful and charming.
It's just fun.
It's a fun, funny movie.
Like I laughed out loud severaltimes.
It's just fun.

(01:06:04):
It's a fun funny movie.
Like I laughed out loud severaltimes.
So this movie is like took onthe idea of a stay-at-home dad.
Before that was a thing, right.
Like one commentator I readsaid that there were six, six
self-reported stay-at-home dadsin the United States in 1983.
Now there are like two million.
So like this was like six, likeone, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.

(01:06:27):
That's what the commentatorclaims.
Oh my gosh.
So this was not a thing Likethis was really like Hughes was
investigating the idea ofgendered roles before we were
talking about it as a society.
So props to him, honestly.
I think, some of the things itgets right is sort of

(01:06:49):
recognizing the labor that isinvolved and the ways in which
the folks who don't do it don'tsee it until they have to, and I
think that Hughes got thatright in a lot of ways.
I was pleasantly surprised thatthe scene where the girlfriends,

(01:07:10):
the moms, kind of hijack himand take him to male strippers
does not devolve into homophobia, and I was really pleasantly
surprised at that.
He is discomfited, but thereare no slurs, there's no.
I mean it really.
I like he kind of rolls withthe punches and I think that was

(01:07:32):
.
I was really pleased and and uh, charmed by that scene.
Uh, even like having receivedthe number from the dancer, he
just passes it on.
He doesn't you know, so that wasthat was pretty cool.
He just passes it on.
He doesn't you know.
So that was that was prettycool.
I think one of the thingsthat's really that I like a lot,
even in retrospect, is the wayin which this film kind of

(01:07:53):
lampoons toxic masculinity andfragile masculinity, right, and
we are meant to really dislikehim.
And he is like his masculinityis toxic, both against other men
and when directed at women,namely Carolyn, who he does not

(01:08:15):
take no foreign answer for, andshe has to actually punch him in
the face in order to stop hisadvances.
So that's all of that is ispretty cool.
I think some of the things thatlike in retrospect like didn't
go far enough though I thinkthey went as far as they could

(01:08:36):
in the eighties are theconsequences for Richardson's
bad actions, right, like it'skind of just, he's like yeah, I,
I went overboard.
That's the extent of apology orconsequences.
I mean he does get his nosebroken, that that he has uh for
for having sexually harassed, uh, a subordinate like not just a

(01:08:58):
colleague but someone whoreported to him and and like
assaulted even like he's in herhotel room.
Yeah, so the Jack, the, theplace where Jack starts, is
really gross, like he is veryfragile when Carolyn says she

(01:09:19):
might go back to work.
The place where he lands ismuch more evolved and like a
much more likable and, I expect,better partner to Carolyn and
that's really cool.
That's really cool houseworkand also the actual paid labor

(01:09:43):
of, like, the assembly line and,uh, the blue collar workers who
were dependent upon jobs.
You know whether we're talkingabout actual detroit, which is
where the movie is set, and autoworkers, or just in general,
because the movie, like hersuccessful advertising pitch,
hinges on the fact that it's atough economy.
That's subtext, it's never text.

Speaker 2 (01:10:08):
Also like thinking about exploitation, because
again subtext the fact that Jinxlied and like basically threw
his employees under the bus.
That's a type of exploitation.

Speaker 1 (01:10:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:23):
And then Richardson wanting to sleep with his
employee is a type ofexploitation and all of that is
just okay at the end.

Speaker 1 (01:10:34):
Yes, yes, and while it is not the case that the end
sees a complete return to sortof the the normal world of the
first scene, it is like kind ofmostly that way, and so that if
we remade this movie, well, itwould have to have a different

(01:10:55):
title for one thing, but if wewere sort of sort of remake this
concept, I would hope that thatend would be a little bit more
clearly defined as egalitarianand equitable.
And the other thing that'smissing, that I didn't name and
I'll just want to name it nowwhen we're talking about gender,
is that though I actually thinkthat the relationship between

(01:11:17):
Carolyn and Jack is relativelyhealthy and loving and secure
not that they don't fight, butthat there's a core there.
We don't actually see anypositive female relations, like
women-women relationships.
Eve, the other woman who worksfor the agency, does sort of

(01:11:37):
seem to come around, because atone point she says to Jack
Carolyn's promotion was reallywell-deserved, and she seems to
be sincere.
Carolyn hasn't even told Jackthat she got a promotion.
So Eve seems to have comearound.
So there is like kind of, butthere's also like this weird
like Joan is supposed to beCarolyn's friend but it's also
totally trying to sleep withJack.

(01:11:58):
It's just kind of like itdoesn't give like a great
picture of interactions betweenwomen.

Speaker 2 (01:12:10):
You know, there's an author I love, elizabeth Peters,
and she also wrote under thename Barbara Michaels, who wrote
like strong, independent women,but there were never any
healthy friendships betweenwomen in these books.
And, like, her most prolificperiod was during the 80s.
And I bring this up because Ifeel like, in the same way, that

(01:12:35):
it was taken as read that anattractive woman is going to be
sexually harassed in theworkplace because that's the
price of being female in public.
Women are going to compete witheach other.
Yeah, and the, the elizabethpeters, self-professed feminist,
really believed in equality.
But this was the world shelived in, um, and to the point

(01:12:57):
where, like, she got a phd inegyptology, um, and was never
able to get a job, because shegot it in the 50s.
And so, if there was an openingwhere they'd be willing to hire
a woman, there was one, and sowomen would see each other as
rivals, both because that's howthe system pitted them and

(01:13:20):
because that's how societytaught them, yeah, so I am not
surprised that that is what gotgot put into a john hughes film
in 1983 yeah yeah so, anyway, um, is there anything that I
forgot that you want to makesure that you?

Speaker 1 (01:13:36):
oh, we did spend some time talking about, like not
from this film, but kind of likeriffing on it the ways in which
both um weaponized incompetenceand sort of the idea of
gatekeeping, which to me feelslike it has a double standard in
terms of gender, in terms ofhousehold labor.

(01:13:56):
We did talk about that as kindof like riffing on concepts that
come up in Mr Mom, what elsedid I forget?
And then we should probablywrap concepts that come up in.

Speaker 2 (01:14:06):
Mr Mom, what else did I forget?
And then we should probablywrap.
We talked a little bit about,kind of like, how easy it is for
men or people who are in thenon-marginalized position to
just ignore, to not evenrecognize, the labor being done
by the people who aremarginalized.
Yeah, yeah, the labor beingdone by the people who are
marginalized, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:14:25):
Yeah Well, actually I enjoyed returning to this one.
There definitely are somethings that, as with all of our
films that we're looking back onfrom our childhood, like that
needs to be talked about.
But actually really did enjoyreturning to it, I think, as a
time capsule of 1983, it's it's,it's fun.
It's fun to return to.

(01:14:45):
So what are you bringing menext week?

Speaker 2 (01:14:48):
So next week I am bringing you my deep thoughts on
Groundhog Day.
Oh, right on time.

Speaker 1 (01:14:55):
You did that on purpose.
I did, I did, all right.
Well, I'll look forward tohearing your deep thoughts then.
All right, see you then.
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(01:15:16):
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