March 11, 2025 • 52 mins
Who lives in a pineapple under the sea?
When SpongeBob SquarePants debuted in 1999, 23-year-old Tracie was not the intended audience for everyone’s favorite absorbent and yellow and porous hero–but she was charmed and entertained by the show that became a Millennial and Gen Z touchstone. This week, Tracie talks about how SpongeBob gave a generation a framework for understanding capitalism, motivation, community, and absurdist humor. She also explains how challenging the medium of animation may have encouraged the current batch of newly-minted adults to confidently break rules that don’t work for them.
If you’re ready! You’re ready! You’re ready! Throw on your headphones and join us in Bikini Bottom.
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
clearly Spongebob is the guy I mean.
Not only is he a titularcharacter, like, he's delightful
.
I think that the kids watchingwere meant to self-identify with
Spongebob.
He's fun and funny and having agreat time and like whatever.
And he loves working.
And like Mr Krabs is like no,you can't have a raise.
And he's like okay, he's alwaysthe employee of the month.
(00:22):
Like he gets a lot of rewardsfor being a cog in the machine
and doing it with a smile on hisface.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's just
pop culture, what others mightdeem stupid shit?
You know matters, you knowwhat's worth talking and
thinking about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
(00:47):
about stupid shit.
I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts
About Stupid Shit, because popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
Spongebob Squarepants with mysister, emily Guy-Burken, and
with you.
Let's dive in.
All right, em.
(01:09):
I think I was into Spongebob alot more than you were, but tell
me what do you know or rememberabout Spongebob Squarepants?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
It's an iconic theme song, who lives in a pineapple
under the sea.
You're right, I never reallygot into it.
I have watched it with you.
Famously, our parents said likeif you weren't there, they
didn't know when to laugh.
Yeah, they could only watch itwith me, because that's how they
knew when to laugh.
Yeah, so I know SpongeBob moreas a meme than I know SpongeBob
(01:41):
as a cartoon that I watched,although I have certainly seen
several episodes.
The thing that you've mentionedseveral times, like three hours
later, that kind of thing,there's the meme of SpongeBob
going imagination with therainbow.
Yeah, it's just kind of likelow-level zeitgeist, because I
(02:03):
kind of missed it.
We were talking about before westarted recording.
That it came out in 99 is whenit started and you were 23, and
I was 20.
And I think part of thedifference was that I was still
in college and you werepost-college.
So it was kind of a pain in thebutt to watch TV, right, and at
the time if I was going tospend my time watching TV, it
(02:24):
was going to be the high, holySunday night hour of X-Files,
and so it kind of just passed meby.
But I do know that there is alot of deep thought about this
show.
People have spent time thinkingabout this show.
I know that it is justabsolutely beloved by the kids
(02:47):
who were little kids at the time, as well as the elder
millennials who were justyounger than us.
I'm not going to say I'm tabularasa, but I'm very excited to
hear what you have to say aboutthis, because I don't have a
whole heck of a lot of opinionsabout SpongeBob.
So tell me, why are we talkingabout?
You know, our favorite sponge?
Speaker 1 (03:07):
today.
Yeah, so, as you say,post-college, I think I mean, to
be honest, I was too old, I wastoo old for it, but I babysat.
That was one of the ways I mademoney in, you know, grad school
.
And also I just love animation,and so I think I watched it,
initially no-transcript, when Iwas through grad school, through
(03:47):
about 2005 or so.
My daughter really loved itwhen she was little and binged
it, watched most of the 15seasons and we've seen several
movies together and I definitelythink that part of her sense of
humor is like influenced bySpongeBob SquarePants, maybe
(04:07):
because of hearing me laugh atit.
I don't know, I don't know.
So I think that's part of why Iwanted to talk about it.
It also was like a bigdeparture, since we've done some
heavy stuff lately, likeSilence of the Lambs last week,
so I wanted something a littlebit lighter.
But that's kind of why.
And so let me give you a quickpreview of where we're going
before I.
I can't do a synopsis of thewhole show, but I'm going to
(04:28):
give you like the characters, Ithink.
But before I do that, let megive you a little postcard from
the destination.
There are four main buckets thatI want to talk about they're
unequal buckets, as you say.
There's a lot of commentaryabout this show.
A lot of it focuses on actuallymoney.
So there's a lot of Marxist orpseudo-Marxist analysis of this
(04:49):
show, because there's very clearclass distinctions among the
characters and their attitudestoward money and toward work are
central to plots often.
So we're going to talk aboutthat and I'm seeing that of this
sort of amateur analysis, likewhat we do, there are those who
(05:12):
say that this show radicalized ageneration to become in the
direction of socialism, butthere are others who claim that
this show really, like was atool of capitalism and taught us
to, you know, like, accept lessthan what we're worth and just
become cogs in the machine, begood little workers, yeah, like.
(05:34):
People are saying both extremesabout this show.
So I want to like unpack alittle bit like what the tools
are that people are pointing to.
I'm interested to get yourbrain on the case a little bit
too, especially as a relativelyblank slate because you're a
money nerd, and then to have mesort of tell you the stuff.
I'm looking forward to hearingyour contribution to that piece.
(05:56):
The second bucket that I want totalk about is gender and
sexuality.
This bucket is a little bitlighter than the money one.
It's a little bigger than athimble, but maybe it's a cup.
It's a shot glass, it's a cup.
There's, I think, the sexualitypiece.
Like I would argue thatspongebob himself is
heteroromantic but asexual, sowhatever.
(06:17):
But I do think that there'ssome interesting things, like
interesting examples ofdifferent forms of masculinity
and like what the judgment is ofthe show of those different
forms of masculinity issomething that's like worth kind
of at least like lifting up.
We won't spend a lot of timethere.
I want to talk about this willbe a little bit related to our
(06:37):
conversations around the moviebig about adulting and the
importance of play and the andthe importance of imagination.
Like the importance ofimagination, like that episode
actually I rewatched from thatmeme that you're talking about
and just being open to wonderthat we get through the person
of SpongeBob and Patrick Starrand kind of like the messages.
(07:00):
And that will segue into myfinal bucket because since I
watched this as a like startingas a 23 year old and then, you
know, through my 20s, like in alot of ways I self identified or
identified closely withSquidward, who was like the
adult of the three mainprotagonists I'm putting quotes
around the word adult becausethey're all technically adults
(07:22):
and also he, like the show likereally gives him a hard time, if
you will, about being an adult.
And yet he was the one I waskind of like identifying with,
so it was like a fun challengeto me, not in a like finger
wagging way, but just like as areminder.
But I wasn't who the show wasmade for.
That's like a reallyinteresting thing.
(07:51):
As I kind of move into myfourth bucket, which is about
like the animation itself andthe art form and the
storytelling pieces of it, Ithink that Steven Hillenburg,
the creator, like me veryinfluenced by Ren and Stimpy,
like it's clear to me that he isindebted to john k, who was a
sexual predator but also madesome great but also cartoons.
Really genius animator in a lotof ways yeah, it's clear to me
(08:14):
that the creators and writersand animators of spongebob
watched ren andimpy likereligiously and studied it.
And it's in that same arc ofreturning to an auteur, if you
wish, of the animation and pushit even further to things that I
(08:35):
find like deeply funny, wherethey will intersperse like
photographs in with theanimation.
I'll tell a specific storyabout that.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
I can remember you telling me about that in the
early 2000s, about somethingthat it just struck you as so
funny.
Does Still really does thesinging at the beginning.
Right, there's like a paintingof a pirate and the mouth is the
real person's mouth, but it's areal person's mouth, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Are you ready, kids?
And then, and in that, so alsoin the series, open, spongebob
kind of bounces, like he openshis door and he's wearing just
underpants, like tighty whities,and this actual hand reaches in
and puts his square pants onhim, like from the side, like
the animator, if you imagine,like the animator's hand coming
in, which, like I findabsolutely delightful.
(09:19):
And so you know part of theconversation about the actual
art form too and the influenceof Hillenburg and others.
I'm guessing those guys are GenX, right, and so there's this is
like a Gen Z staple that GenXers made, and so there's
something really interesting tome about that too, like when we
(09:40):
think which harkens back toother things, like Dirty Dancing
, which was a boomer story, buta Gen X touchstone you know like
those sorts of things.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
So anyway.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
So that's where we're going.
Before we get there, let meremind you, listener, or tell
you if you haven't heard, likesome of the key players in this
show Again, it's 15 seasons,it's not a singular story arc.
So I'm not going to try, butI'll just name the players and I
might give a few synopses ofspecific episodes as we go.
(10:13):
But so SpongeBob SquarePants isthe show.
That's the name of the show.
It's also a character.
It's set in Bikini Bottom,which is the name of an
underwater town populated by seacreatures.
So SpongeBob is a sponge and helives on a little street.
There are only three houses,apparently.
(10:34):
His is a pineapple, right nextto him is what looks like a tiki
head, I guess, and then rightnext to that is a rock.
So the Tiki Head is Squidward'shouse, squidward Tentacles, who
is a squid and is definitelythe most adult of the three of
them.
Under the rock lives PatrickStar, who's a starfish.
(10:56):
Spongebob and Patrick both wearpants but no shirt.
Squidward wears a shirt, but nopants, doesn't SpongeBob have a
snail?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
that's a cat named Gary.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Yes, spongebob has a pet who's a snail, whose name is
Gary and Gary meows like a cat.
Yes, a fast food restaurantcalled the Krusty Krab, which is
owned by Mr Krabs, who is acrab and is extremely
(11:41):
money-focused and he's verygreedy and he has this thing
where he can smell money and heloves money.
That's his entire personalitypretty much is that he loves
money and he runs the KrustyKrab like really to to maximize
profit.
He doesn't care about thecustomers, he does not care
about his workers, he just caresabout money.
That is made very clear.
He has a daughter named Pearl,who is a whale, adopted I okay,
(12:06):
they never say Squidward hatesworking, he just works to live.
Spongebob loves working.
He's the fry cook and he lovesit Like he just thinks it's the
bee's knees.
In fact, like the very firstepisode, one of the things we
see is like he's gonna go tryand get a job at the Krusty Krab
(12:27):
.
So other characters includeSpongeBob and Patrick's friend
Sandy, who is a squirrel like a,like an actual squirrel from
the land.
So she wears a diving outfitand helmet underwater but she
has a dome with a tree in itwhere she actually lives.
That's like imagine like a,like an underwater base that
(12:50):
they built.
It's sort of shaped like anigloo with like a lock system
that drains the water so you cantake your helmet off.
There's also mrs puff, who isthe driving instructor.
She's a puffer fish, she's verynervous.
And plankton, who is thedriving instructor she's a
puffer fish, she's very nervous.
And Plankton, who is tiny andhe owns the Chum Bucket, which
(13:10):
is another restaurant across thestreet from the Krusty Krab,
which is always failing, andPlankton is always trying to
steal the secret formula forKrabby Patties which makes them
irresistible, so that he can bea successful restaurateur.
So there's this big rivalry andhe's always failing.
There are probably othercharacters, like there's Larry
the Lobster, who's a bodybuilder, and you know.
(13:33):
There's a couple of otherrecurring characters, but those
are the main.
Those are the main ones.
Let me start with the the moneyand Marxism piece and I'll give
a little bit more of maybe someof the like that first episode
where which is the first timethat so each episode, much like
Ren and Stimpy, it's like a30-minute episode with two
(13:54):
15-minute mini episodes or halfepisodes, so you'll talk about
and each one is named, each ofthe 15-minute ones is named.
So sometimes you'll seesomething.
It'll be like season two,episode 13B, which means it's
the second half of the episode.
Is that storyline?
So one of the two in the veryfirst episode is when SpongeBob
(14:15):
gets his job at the Krusty Kraband he's like really excited to
try and go get this job and it'sthe first time we hear him say
I'm ready, which is not just I'mready, it's I'm ready, I'm
ready, I'm ready, which I willsometimes say to you and, if you
didn't know that, where it camefrom that's where it comes from
(14:39):
.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
I had no idea, oh my goodness, that's helpful.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Now For 20 years I've been saying this to my sister.
She didn't know that I wasquoting SpongeBob.
That's fantastic, okay.
So he goes to get this job and,like Patrick is encouraging him
, you can do this.
And then he gets there andSquidward's like oh no, like
Squidward does not want his nextdoor neighbor working with him
(15:00):
at the Krusty Krab, and so MrKrabs gives him an impossible
task to go buy this like superfancy spatula that Mr Krabs has
just made up, that you knowsupposedly doesn't exist, and
not to come back until he has it.
And when he does, then he canhave the job.
So of course he goes off andhe's going to.
He gets it.
But in the meantime fourbusloads of anchovies show up to
(15:24):
the Krusty Krab and they'relike literally like a sea that
the two other characters, mrKrabs and Squidward, are just
kind of like floating on the sea, of anchovies who are hungry
and rude.
And some of the jokes are likeso funny to me that I don't
understand why they're so funny.
Like Mr Krabs, the buses pullup and his eye twitches and he
(15:45):
says do you smell that?
It's a smelly smell.
That smells smelly.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Like for some reason.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
I find that hilarious .
Do you smell that?
It's a smelly smell, thatsmells.
It's that sophisticated senseof humor.
Yeah, I'm so clever, so I meanit doesn't take a genius to know
.
Spongebob swoops in with thisfancy spatula and like, almost
(16:14):
magically, makes enough KrabbyPatties to feed all these
anchovies and saves the day.
And so of course he gets thejob, much to Squidward's chagrin
, because Squidward finds himreally annoying.
The job much took Squidward'schagrin because Squidward finds
him really annoying.
Those attitudes like Krabs isdelighted because they've just
made so much money from allthese anchovies buying all the
Krabby Patties.
Squidward is annoyed andSpongeBob is just like happy to
(16:35):
be of service.
And so those characteristicslike that describes so many
episodes Krabs is delightedbecause there's money.
Squidward is annoyed and boredand put out in one way or
another.
Spongebob is just happy, happyto be working, happy to be of
(16:55):
service.
It's very clear that they areunderpaid.
I think there's only there'sone time I'm aware of.
It's possible there are more,but there's one time that I'm
aware of where SpongeBob sayshey, mr Krabs, can I have a
raise?
And Mr Krabs is like no.
And that's the end of theconversation.
So like we're meant to knowthat they're underpaid, clearly
(17:17):
overworked.
Sometimes we see it directlywhere, like Mr Krabs says, we're
going to be open 24 hours nowand there are literally two
employees Like not to a shift.
Two, there's Squidward andSpongeBob.
So like we're meant to knowthat they're overworked and
underpaid and SpongeBob is justlike yeah, this is what we do,
(17:38):
you know.
And Squidward is like huh.
And so I see why the amateuranalysts are saying like both of
the things that they're sayingright, both that this
radicalized a generation whowere like yeah, I'm not doing
that.
And also that it was like kindof conveying the message of like
(18:01):
be a good worker, becauseclearly Spongebob is the guy I
mean not only is he a titularcharacter.
Be a good worker Becauseclearly Spongebob is the guy I
mean not only is he a titularcharacter, like he's delightful.
I think that the kids watchingwere meant to self-identify with
Spongebob he's fun and funnyand having a great time and like
whatever, and he loves working.
And like Mr Krabs is like no,you can't have a raise.
And he's like okay, he's alwaysthe employee of the month.
(18:24):
Like he gets a lot of rewardsfor being a cog in the machine,
and doing it with a smile on hisface, though he is also made
fun of like right, like crabsand squidward both think he's
kind of ridiculous.
It's like complicated the factthat SpongeBob is the main
(18:49):
character and is so happy to bea worker.
He's happy, it's his dream,it's the finest eating
establishment in all of BikiniBottom.
You know that he was like bornto be a fry cook.
He's treated as if he's a chefin some ways, like because of
(19:14):
the sort of prodigal kind of,you know, prodigy kind of thing.
But he's not wearing a chef'shat, right, he's wearing like
the Krusty Krab uniform and he'sjust slinging burgers like,
even though he's sort of made toseem as though this is some
special gift.
And the fact that, like againcrabs, we see again and again
(19:37):
and again that money is his onlymotivator and he's not sharing
it with his employees.
But spongebob remains happywith the circumstances.
That's what those who sort ofsay like this is the tool of
capitalism that was trying toindoctrinate youngins to be good
workers.
That's the evidence that theyprovide.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Here's what I'm hearing.
It was around then like late90s, early 2000s, when I first
heard from our uncle in Orlandoyou know, find something you
love to do and you'll never worka day in your life.
Which I've heard many, manytimes since and it very much
(20:19):
seems like we are seeing withSpongeBob and Squidward, like
the two sides of that, which isa very capitalist kind of way of
looking at things in some waysLike so you know, find something
you love to do, you'll neverwork a day in your life.
(20:39):
I really hate that advice.
I don't like I don't fault ouruncle for telling me that and I
don't think that it'snecessarily bad advice in a
better world than the one welive in, except that nobody
loves digging ditches and thatneeds to be done.
(21:00):
I love what I do.
I love what I do.
There are days when it is work,do there are days when it is
work.
So the idea that, likeSpongebob, loving what he does,
is decoupled from how much he'spaid for it is, I think, kind of
like a Marxist idea in that.
Like you're not doing workbecause you're getting paid for
(21:25):
it.
You're doing work because thework needs to be done, because
it fulfills something in youbecause, because you're good at
it, you know all of those thingsthat would be kind of like the
idea of communism.
But also why capitalism is notgreat.
Because you get these exploitedworkers, one of whom is happy
(21:55):
to be exploited, the other onewho is just this doesn't have
any other good choices.
So I can definitely see wheresomeone could say like, yeah,
this is, this is upholding thestatus quo.
But I can also see.
Before we started recording, Iwas saying, like you know, this
is Gen Z, we're watching this.
As the eldest Gen Z, the oneswho are now in the workforce it
makes my heart sing that theyare saying to their bosses what
(22:18):
do you mean?
You want me to work past five?
You only pay me till five or no.
I'm not answering the phone onthe weekend.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
No weekend like no, which I am so proud to see
because it never occurred to methat I could do that when I was
their age.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Yeah, so I do think that there is something to like.
They grew up imbibing this andseeing that spongebob is there
because he wants to be there andsquidward is there because he
has to be there.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
There's something, something really, really
interesting about Squidward inparticular.
Squidward is driven by status,despite the fact that he has
very little.
He's a total snob.
He's a culture snob.
So he plays the clarinet poorlyand thinks of himself as being
like, very important, like acreative genius of some kind,
(23:07):
right like he really wants to beviewed in that way.
So he not only does he play theclarinet, like he paints and
like whatever, and he has thisbig rivalry with this other
squid named squilliam.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
That is amazing why is that so delightful?
Speaker 1 (23:26):
squilliam looks just Squidward but like has like a
unibrow and is like, is muchmore Like externally successful.
So in one of the most belovedepisodes of SpongeBob
SquarePants it's called BandGeeks and Squilliam calls
Squidward up and says my band issupposed to play at the Bubble
(23:48):
Bowl two Fridays from now orwhatever it is, but I can't do
it because I'm going to be outof town.
So I thought maybe you and yourband want to do it.
And of course Squid doesn'thave a band.
But he lies and says that hedoes and tries to get a.
He gets all these peopletogether.
So all well fish together inthis I don't know abandoned
(24:10):
factory or something.
And he says has anyone playedan instrument before?
And Patrick Starr raises hishand and says does mayonnaise
count as an instrument?
I don't know why I find that sofunny anyway.
(24:31):
So, like the whole, like thewhole motivation for Squidward
to do this, to try and pull hismarching band together, is to
show up Squilliam, that he's nota failure.
And what's interesting is thatI think the reason I'm bringing
this to the fore in terms ofwhat you were just talking about
is again like what motivates usright, like we're clearly meant
to think.
Bringing this to the fore interms of what you were just
talking about is again like whatmotivates us right, like we're
clearly meant to think that thisis the wrong reason, like
(24:53):
there's a lot of secondhandembarrassment on the part of
Squidward and it is not working.
And then, finally, likeSpongeBob gives this like
rousing speech where he's likeLarry, when you had that
accident, who was it thatrevived you?
And he was like the emt guy andlike so.
And so when, when that happens,what did the?
A guy on the street, like it'snot squidward, like the answer
(25:15):
is not squirt, and spongebobsomehow manages to be like well,
let's do it for those guys.
So they pull together thisamazing band that like knocks
the socks off of everyone,including squilliam, and so so
squidward gets rewarded, like hegets what he wants, even though
I think we are meant to knowthat it's for the wrong reasons.
(25:38):
It's I mean we're even told it'sfor the wrong reasons.
Like spongebob doesn't rallythe troops for squidward but
squidward still like like reapsthe benefit of it.
So it's like this reallyinteresting sort of push pull
that and this episode is deeplybeloved, like when I did a
search for like funniestspongebob episodes.
(26:01):
Like this comes up on everysingle list and it's got this
like status like keeping up withthe Joneses or keeping up with
Squilliam, in this case at itscore, which again, like to your
point about working because youlove it or working because you
have to like what is themotivation?
(26:21):
Like I do think that Hillenburgand the other creators were
really interested in some ofthose questions about motivation
.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
And also even the what you're describing, how
Spongebob like rallies thetroops, is by saying let's do
this for these other people whohelped, but also gets into the
idea that to each their ownability, so, like the EMT guy is
(26:56):
who helped Larry because that'swhat he's good at, I think it's
really interesting thatSquidward is unhappy because
he's status obsessed, mr Krabsis money obsessed and those are
like kind of two sides of thesame coin.
Yes, completely yes, andwhereas SpongeBob's just happy,
(27:17):
as is Patrick, if I remembercorrectly, there is something to
like taking pride in humblework, which is status quo
supporting.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
The thing, though, I think like when we talk about
status and money, though, likethe episode that gave us the
meme with the imagination withthe rainbow is called the Idiot
Box, spongebob and Patrick ordera TV for the box.
They throw the TV away a gianttelevision that they throw away
so that they can have this bigbox to play in.
(27:51):
And Squidward is, you know,lives between the two of them.
So he's like, can I have the TV?
And he's like super excited tohave this giant TV.
Meanwhile, spongebob andPatrick close themselves in the
box and are playing differentgames, and the sound effects
from them are like reallybelievable, so much so that
(28:13):
Squidward is like, what are youdoing?
Do you have a sound taperecorder in there?
Like, how are you doing that?
Like they're playing mountainclimber and like he hears the
sound of the avalanche and he'slike he gets really scared and
he opens the box to see ifthey're okay and they're just
sitting there, like blinking athim, and Squidward's like, how
are you doing that?
And that's when SpongeBob'slike it's our imagination and he
(28:34):
does the rainbow thing thatyou've seen in the meme and he
goes back into his house andhe's trying to watch the TV and
every show is something aboutboxes, boxes or like it's like a
boxing match and he's like,well, it's not actually boxing,
but then they're like boxingboxes moving around a boxing
ring so ridiculous.
(28:55):
So there's definitely sort ofthat like again, that sense of
like, what is the motivation?
Like these two guys, patrickand SpongeBob, they don't need
money, they don't need status,they got their box, they got
their imaginations like, andthey are happy, and that's true,
like over and over and overagain, so that that episode is
like explicit.
(29:15):
But also like when they lovegoing jellyfishing, so they have
nets, like think like butterflynets, but to catch jellyfish
and then they just throw themback and they're like frolicking
, like they play, like that'stheir thing.
What's interesting to me, one ofthe many things that are
interesting in that episode inparticular, in the idiot box,
(29:38):
squidward like he's having FOMOabout all the noises he's
hearing coming out of the boxand so he joins them and they
said, well, where do you want togo?
And he's like, I don't know,like a robot, pirate island,
like trying to come up with themost ridiculous thing.
And then they do it and likehe's not seeing it, he's just
sitting there in a box withthese two guys and so he like
gets frustrated and leaves andthey keep playing.
(30:00):
And then he hears the soundeffects and it sounds like robot
pirate island.
He's like major FOMO.
So he waits for them to go tosleep and then gets in the box
and is looking for like thebutton or the lever or the
whatever, like how they weremaking the noise and eventually
like he's like it's not, like ifI could just press my foot,
like this I'll be driving a racecar.
And then there's the sound of arace car and he's like, hey,
(30:20):
I'm finally doing it.
I'm finally doing it.
And SpongeBob hears from hishouse like, oh, he's finally
doing it.
Well, it turns out it'sactually like a trash truck
that's picking up the big boxand, like Squid's like having a
great time because he feels thebox moving.
He's like my imagination isworking.
He gets dumped in the dump andlike falls down this hill of
(30:43):
trash, down this hill of trash.
So it's like there's something.
Really.
There's like a tension that'salive for me in that, insofar as
I feel like we are beingclearly shown that Squidward is
limiting himself by his kind ofadult I'm putting quotes around
that his adult perspective.
His cynicism and his negativityare limiting him.
(31:07):
And even when he finally letshimself, it's not really him.
It's not real.
Even his imagination is notreal.
His experience is actually thistrash truck no-transcript is
(31:29):
able to access.
The motivation that we areclearly shown is like more fun,
more desirable, like what weshould be aiming for, like we
should be aspiring to beSpongeBob and Patrick.
But even when Squidward letshimself, he pays for it.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
This is feeling a little like there's a connection
to Big.
I see that when Josh gets hisfirst paycheck and he's like 135
or whatever it was, yeah, 187,yeah, like there's a childlike
enjoyment and childlike joy andwonder and imagination that you
(32:07):
see with spongebob, and it's inpart because he is not obsessed
with the adult status type stuffthat I can't remember the not
villain, well Squidward, butyeah.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Oh Plankton.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
No, no, no, I'm big, I'm big.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
The rival guy.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Paul, paul, there's that, but there's also like
there's more, I think sympathyfor Squidward in this situation.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
That's yeah.
So that's a really interestingpoint too because, yes, I agree,
in particular, like again,since I started watching this as
an adult like I was Iidentified with Squidward a lot
of the time, you know, like I'msure the kids who were watching
it like the kids I wasbabysitting were not identifying
as Squidward, but I was, youknow.
And so there's also like areally interesting kind of
(32:56):
tension there in that, when Ithink about what I named before,
that like I think Hillenburgand the other makers were Gen
Xers like me, I'm watching it,identifying with Squidward, you
know, and like looking for waysthat I can like not make those
mistakes but totallyunderstanding them,
understanding the status,understanding the FOMO,
(33:17):
understanding the like oh no,squilliam Like I can't let
squilliam know I work at a fastfood restaurant, you know like
really getting that in ways thatI have a feeling, like the kids
I was babysitting for whom itwas tech, I guess, but I have a
feeling like the kids I wasbabysitting for whom it was tech
, I guess, you know officiallymade like probably weren't
getting you know from lifeexperience.
(33:39):
So there's something really like.
Yes, I completely agree.
There's a lot more sympathy forSquidward than there was for
Paul in Big yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Yeah, so something I like I have spent some time
thinking about my spouse and Ihave talked about like where we
college In the first college hechose for a reason that I can't
wrap my head around, and I wasthinking I wouldn't do that,
except that when I first went tovisit my alma mater, kenyon, I
wanted to cross it off my listbecause it wasn't prestigious
(34:10):
enough list because it wasn'tprestigious enough and like I
feel really lucky that I havethis like core sense of like who
I am and like I stepped oncampus.
I'm like, well, I'm home, sothat's it.
And I had a couple of pangs oflike I had someone say to me
when I applied I had someone Iwent to high school with, like
oh, like you're not going to getinto Kenyon Because I was going
(34:31):
to school with people who areapplying to Yale and Harvard and
Princeton and Duke and blah,blah, blah and so that kind of
like social conditioning forlike prestige.
And even like my first job outof college I worked at Barnes
and Noble and then I ended upgetting an office job.
That was awful, but it was anoffice job.
(34:52):
So that's like real work insteadof retail, which is not real
work.
So like there's and I don'tknow if that's just Gen X or if
that is millennials have feltthat too or what and if that's
part of what we're seeing with,like elder gen z like saying no
(35:14):
about yeah about work, maybeyeah.
I don't know, but that, that, Ithink, is like it's really
interesting because what they'regrowing up watching is like
just be who you are and enjoyyourself yeah, yeah, actually,
like on that point of like bewho you are and the status stuff
(35:34):
, I'm gonna shift into gender alittle bit.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
So I'm not gonna say this like never in 15 seasons
ever passes Bechdel, but ingeneral it doesn't.
So there certainly are morethan two female characters, but
they're almost never together.
It's not a regular thing thatthey would be together and if
they were, like if Mrs Potts andSandy talked, they would
probably be talking aboutSpongeBob.
(35:59):
It's entirely possible thatit's more than one point in the
15 seasons that, like, pearl andSandy spoke about something
besides SpongeBob or a man, butin general, no.
So a reminder Bechdel is arethere at least two female
characters?
Do they talk to each other?
Do they talk to each otherabout something other than a man
(36:20):
, two named female characters?
So I'm saying like in general,no, this film, this franchise,
doesn't.
They don't set it up that thathappens on the regular and I
think there's still some reallyinteresting things that happen
around gender.
So Sandy is the most frequentairtime female character and
(36:43):
she's a badass, right, she's asquirrel who lives under the sea
and they first meet whenSpongeBob first meets Sandy.
She's like wrestling this giantclam and they like do karate
together.
Spongebob first meets Sandy,she's like wrestling this giant
clam and they like do karatetogether, spongebob and she do,
and like this clam eatsSpongeBob.
He's trying to save Sandy butends up like getting eaten.
And she's like hold on littleyellow dude because she's from
(37:05):
Texas, and she like beats theheck out of this clam who like
flies off like whimpering, likeshe is tough, real tough, and
she's wearing this like diver'ssuit, but then in her dome she
wears like a little like miniskirt and like bandoo.
So she's very much female, youknow, like girly girl to a
(37:28):
certain extent, but also toughas nails.
So that's really kind ofinteresting.
She's clearly SpongeBob'sromantic interest, though again
I have to say I think SpongeBobis pretty much asexual and has
something going on with Patrick,I don't know.
They're like best friends, youknow.
So it's complicated.
(37:49):
I'm actually not making anycomments on sexuality, on gender
, on gender, like Sandy's reallyinteresting.
And like SpongeBob, who is ourbeloved protagonist, is like
really physically weak.
So they go to like Muscle Beachat Goo Lagoon.
And like Larry the Lobster,like there's all of this,
(38:09):
they're like lifting weights andstuff and like SpongeBob is
lifting, like Spongebob islifting, like like a stick with
marshmallows on the end of itand struggling, you know like,
and Sandy's like dead liftingthese huge weights.
And like Larry's like deadlifting like the bleachers with
all the fish and people in them,like on either side of a stick.
And like Spongebob is likestruggling with these
(38:31):
marshmallows.
So like we are meant tounderstand that this little
yellow dude is not very strongand like we laugh at him.
But we laugh with him kind ofit's much gentler, kind of like
laughing at him than I think itcould be, especially with the
kind of like emasculating in thetraditional sense weakness,
(38:56):
except that then he splits hispants while he's trying to lift
and everybody laughs and heloves that, that he's making
everybody laugh.
So he starts splitting hispants all the time.
I actually had to stop watchingthat episode because I couldn't
handle the secondhandembarrassment you and I are
particularly uh yeah,particularly sensitive to that
sensitive to secondhandembarrassment but so we have
larry the lobster, who's likesuper buff and like, also just
(39:20):
like a cool dude like we.
He's neither villainized nor ishe idealized as like a, you
know, like it's not.
Like.
The hyper masculinity issomething that becomes something
we're meant to like, wish for,it's just one way of being yeah.
Which I think is pretty cool,and I wonder if that also
contributes to sort of the likethe ways in which Gen Zers are
(39:42):
just a lot more comfortable withdifferent expressions of gender
, like on that spectrum Right.
One doesn't have to be Larrythe Lobster in order to be male
one can be a spongebob and stillbe male.
I think that's really cool andlike it's unfortunate that, like
sandy was kind of our onlyoption, or pearl, who's very
(40:04):
again those opposites becauseshe's a very girly girl.
Pearl is the whale, daughter ofthe crab, like super into, into
, like she's like cheerleader,like kind of traditional
feminine, like hyper femininekind of expressions, but huge
because she's a whale.
So it's like outside of BikiniBottom we might think that those
(40:26):
things were mutually exclusiveand in Bikini Bottom it's like
no, it's just that's how pearlis.
You know, that's who, that'swho sandy is so so those things
are pretty cool.
We're running out of time so Iwant to talk about the actual
like art form a little bit oh,yeah, yeah, yeah so use of real,
like live action or stillphotographs within the animation
(40:49):
is done regularly, but not somuch, in my opinion, that it
becomes sort of a shtick thatyou're like, oh yeah, that again
.
And done to such comedic effect, like in that first episode.
When SpongeBob first meetsSandy, she says how are you with
air?
And he doesn't know what she'ssaying.
So he gets invited over to herdome, her tree dome, and he asks
(41:14):
Patrick, patrick, what's air?
And he says do you mean puttingon airs?
That just means being fancy.
You have to put your pinky up.
So SpongeBob goes to Sandy'sdome and like starts to realize
what air is and he's likestarting to dry out and his
voice gets all funny.
He's like what's wrong withwater?
(41:35):
It's really bizarre.
And then Patrick sees him liketrying to get out, and so
Patrick like rushes in and islike no, you can't quit.
And he's like taking him backto the table so that they can
have lunch together and he driesout, and he dries out, so they
(41:55):
get really dried out and then wecut to a photograph of a yellow
kitchen sponge next to a littlepink starfish.
It's a photograph and I've seenthis before, but like a couple
of nights ago.
I'm watching this and I'mlaughing so hard I'm almost
crying at this photograph of ayellow kitchen sponge and a pink
starfish in the midst of thisthing, where they're like waters
(42:16):
for quitters.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
And then Patrick's like pinky up because of Johnny
Pansy oh man, anyway, anyway.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
so where I wanted to go with this, though, was this
sort of like not being afraid topush the bounds of the medium,
which I think, in many ways,again, is indebted to ren and
stimpy and those anim animatorswho came before, but is not
derivative of Like they're notrehashing the same thing that
Ren and Stimpy did you know,they're doing it in new and
(43:04):
interesting ways and sometimesit falls flat.
Like there's one episode I don'tremember which one it is Like.
I actually like the episode butit starts with this like
Patches the, the pirate liveaction thing with this parrot on
, like parrot marionette it'sreally.
That bit is really stupid and Ithink it's meant to be like it
like like captain kangaroo herein the dmv when we were kids,
(43:26):
where there was like a liveaction thing that would
introduce a cartoon show.
Like I think it's meant to kindof harken back to that, but
that to me fell flat.
Like pushing the medium and likebeing nostalgic and stuff.
But then in other times, likeat one point, they have to run a
gauntlet on a haunted pirateship and it's the perfume
counter and we actually see likevideo of an actual, like
(43:48):
perfume counter.
That's hilarious, so perfumecounter, that's hilarious, so I
guess that.
And then they have a narrator.
like I think a lot of kidssenses of humor were very much
influenced by things like thatright like like I've mentioned
before on other episodes, wheremy daughter sometimes if
something's taking too long, shewill put on this weird french
(44:11):
accent which is the narratorfrom spongebob and say two hours
later and it's hilarious, andshe got that from spongebob and
that's like baked into her humordna, which I think is really,
really interesting.
I mean, we've talked, we've beentalking about a lot of the
things that are baked in, but Ithink again we have said this so
(44:32):
many times on deep thoughts butone of the things that I, that
I think the SpongeBob folks didwell and why it still holds up
these 25 years later, orwhatever, is that they took the
medium deeply seriously, butthey didn't take themselves
seriously and they were willingto break the rules if it had
certain effects, and so I thinkthat's one of the things that
(44:53):
makes it as long lasting as it'sbeen.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
You know it's interesting the way you're
putting that.
Willing to break the rules iskind of what I feel like we're
seeing with willing to break therules if it serves the humor or
the story.
I feel like that's what we'reseeing with the Gen Zers who are
like yeah, I'm not doing thatat work, like they're willing to
(45:19):
break the rules because itserves their needs.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
Something else yeah, it serves a greater purpose.
Yeah, that's really interesting.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
Whereas we were like no, these are the rules, the
rules are the rules.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
You got to follow the rules, because the rules are
the rules.
This is a cartoon.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
you can't put live action in a cartoon yes yeah,
yeah yeah, that is the sort ofthing that that's why we do what
we're doing which is like whereare these like kind of I won't
say universal, but likewidespread changes and
differences between generationscoming from?
(45:52):
And like I get a littlefrustrated with how much we talk
about generations Like theynamed Gen Alpha before they're
even done being born.
It's like stop, like they needto have like shared experiences,
shared media, shared a bunch ofstuff, and if they're not even
all born yet, then what's thepoint?
But there is something to whenthey get to be, you know, young
(46:14):
adults and the older adults arelike kids these days about, you
know, working with them.
What is it that they're goingto have in common?
Speaker 1 (46:33):
highlights of what we talked about.
Spongebob y'all is still really, really funny.
So the key buckets that Ibrought today were like
attitudes toward money and kindof Marxist analysis thereof
money and work and we actuallyextended that out to status and
I think where we landed wasactually talking about
motivation and what motivates us, and naming that Spongebob sort
(46:54):
of showed us that likeintrinsic motivation.
Like Spongebob works because helikes the work and he is
therefore happy and he is notdriven by status.
He is not driven by money, he'snot even.
I mean there are moments whenhe cares about how others think
about him, but even in that likeas long as like when he's
(47:15):
making people laugh, he's happytoo.
You know, even he can't liftwhat Larry the lobster can lift,
but when he makes people laugh,that makes him happy.
So there's like a way in which,like we are shown that
relationships, imagination, fun,play, all are like great
motivators and status and moneyare not.
(47:38):
Squidward is so unhappy all thetime and he has a hard time
even accessing the things thatmake SpongeBob happy because
he's doing it for the wrongreasons.
We talked a bit about gender.
I put sexuality on the shelfbecause it's complicated and I
actually don't want to get intoit that much, but I did talk
about gender.
The show in general does notpass the bechdel test, but it
(48:01):
does give us really likenon-judgmental, different modes
of masculinity, in particular,from very weak spongebob,
physically physically weak, tovery strong Larry, who aren't
idealized or demonized foreither of those things.
That's just how they show up.
We also saw sort of whatoutside of Bikini Bottom I named
(48:23):
, like the whale, who is alsovery feminine, would, based on
some of what society has taughtus about fat phobia and
femininity, would say thatthat's impossible.
But there's Pearl.
That's just who she is.
And similarly Sandy, who is atotal badass, very physically
(48:45):
strong, very physically fierceand also feminine.
We get both with Sandy I talkeda bit about, like the some of
the generational, like switchingand swapping and humor insofar
as, like this was Gen Xersmaking stuff for Gen Zers and
younger potentially, and likesome of the humor things we have
(49:08):
therefore passed on throughthis show, like my daughter's
two hours later, and alsobreaking the rules a little bit
or breaking the fourth walloccasionally, the ways in which
I experienced this show when itwas new, like kind of like
self-identifying as Squidwardwho was, like the quote unquote
(49:28):
adult, even though they're alltechnically adults, and the ways
in which it felt like areminder versus like kids I was
babysitting who are now adults,who would have self-identified
probably as SpongeBob orpossibly Patrick of some of the
(49:56):
groundbreaking work that Ren andStimpy did in terms of, like
reclaiming animation as its ownart form, not just as marketing
for products but as its own artform, that this kind of builds
on that work that Ren and Stimpydid and even expands it by
continuing to break the rules Inamed, specifically by bringing
in like still photos or videofrom the real world, which we
see even from the openingsequence, where we've got the
(50:18):
pirate painting with an actualman's lips asking if you're
ready, kids, and also theanimator's hand with the square
pants over SpongeBob'stighty-whities.
So those were the big highlightsof what I think we talked about
.
What did I miss, em?
Speaker 2 (50:37):
I think we we talked a little bit about how so you
mentioned that money and statusare bad motivators, but we
talked about how like that couldbe the way that spongebob
treats work could be seen aslike a like upholding the status
quo in some ways, or it couldbe like a Marxist pushback.
(50:57):
In some ways, I think it'scomplicated, I think it's like
it's a yes end and in partbecause it's being, it's been
made by, like the Gen Xers whowere like oh, the boss wants me
to work late, okay, I'm workinglate, so we struggle with
breaking those rules.
Speaker 1 (51:13):
Yeah, yeah, and I think that's why we see
commentators saying both thingsabout this franchise.
They say both that itradicalized a generation around
work and that it taught us to begood little workers.
We see both things being saidand I see why I see why, people
draw those conclusions, I meanfrom the art itself.
(51:33):
I think we would have to look atdata, whether quantitative or
qualitative, to know what theactual impact was.
So well, that's what I wantedto say about SpongeBob
SquarePants, who lives in apineapple under the sea.
So next weekend.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
Yes, next time I will be bringing you my deep
thoughts about the Mummy, theBrendan Fraser film.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
All right, cool.
Looking forward to it.
Can't wait See you then.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
(52:20):
, of course, share the show withyour people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to ResonateRecordings for editing today's
episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture, and
(52:42):
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
clearly Spongebob is the guy I mean.
Not only is he a titularcharacter, like, he's delightful
.
I think that the kids watchingwere meant to self-identify with
Spongebob.
He's fun and funny and having agreat time and like whatever.
And he loves working.
And like Mr Krabs is like no,you can't have a raise.
And he's like okay, he's alwaysthe employee of the month.
(00:22):
Like he gets a lot of rewardsfor being a cog in the machine
and doing it with a smile on hisface.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's just
pop culture, what others mightdeem stupid shit?
You know matters, you knowwhat's worth talking and
thinking about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
(00:47):
about stupid shit.
I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts
About Stupid Shit, because popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
Spongebob Squarepants with mysister, emily Guy-Burken, and
with you.
Let's dive in.
All right, em.
(01:09):
I think I was into Spongebob alot more than you were, but tell
me what do you know or rememberabout Spongebob Squarepants?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
It's an iconic theme song, who lives in a pineapple
under the sea.
You're right, I never reallygot into it.
I have watched it with you.
Famously, our parents said likeif you weren't there, they
didn't know when to laugh.
Yeah, they could only watch itwith me, because that's how they
knew when to laugh.
Yeah, so I know SpongeBob moreas a meme than I know SpongeBob
(01:41):
as a cartoon that I watched,although I have certainly seen
several episodes.
The thing that you've mentionedseveral times, like three hours
later, that kind of thing,there's the meme of SpongeBob
going imagination with therainbow.
Yeah, it's just kind of likelow-level zeitgeist, because I
(02:03):
kind of missed it.
We were talking about before westarted recording.
That it came out in 99 is whenit started and you were 23, and
I was 20.
And I think part of thedifference was that I was still
in college and you werepost-college.
So it was kind of a pain in thebutt to watch TV, right, and at
the time if I was going tospend my time watching TV, it
(02:24):
was going to be the high, holySunday night hour of X-Files,
and so it kind of just passed meby.
But I do know that there is alot of deep thought about this
show.
People have spent time thinkingabout this show.
I know that it is justabsolutely beloved by the kids
(02:47):
who were little kids at the time, as well as the elder
millennials who were justyounger than us.
I'm not going to say I'm tabularasa, but I'm very excited to
hear what you have to say aboutthis, because I don't have a
whole heck of a lot of opinionsabout SpongeBob.
So tell me, why are we talkingabout?
You know, our favorite sponge?
Speaker 1 (03:07):
today.
Yeah, so, as you say,post-college, I think I mean, to
be honest, I was too old, I wastoo old for it, but I babysat.
That was one of the ways I mademoney in, you know, grad school
.
And also I just love animation,and so I think I watched it,
initially no-transcript, when Iwas through grad school, through
(03:47):
about 2005 or so.
My daughter really loved itwhen she was little and binged
it, watched most of the 15seasons and we've seen several
movies together and I definitelythink that part of her sense of
humor is like influenced bySpongeBob SquarePants, maybe
(04:07):
because of hearing me laugh atit.
I don't know, I don't know.
So I think that's part of why Iwanted to talk about it.
It also was like a bigdeparture, since we've done some
heavy stuff lately, likeSilence of the Lambs last week,
so I wanted something a littlebit lighter.
But that's kind of why.
And so let me give you a quickpreview of where we're going
before I.
I can't do a synopsis of thewhole show, but I'm going to
(04:28):
give you like the characters, Ithink.
But before I do that, let megive you a little postcard from
the destination.
There are four main buckets thatI want to talk about they're
unequal buckets, as you say.
There's a lot of commentaryabout this show.
A lot of it focuses on actuallymoney.
So there's a lot of Marxist orpseudo-Marxist analysis of this
(04:49):
show, because there's very clearclass distinctions among the
characters and their attitudestoward money and toward work are
central to plots often.
So we're going to talk aboutthat and I'm seeing that of this
sort of amateur analysis, likewhat we do, there are those who
(05:12):
say that this show radicalized ageneration to become in the
direction of socialism, butthere are others who claim that
this show really, like was atool of capitalism and taught us
to, you know, like, accept lessthan what we're worth and just
become cogs in the machine, begood little workers, yeah, like.
(05:34):
People are saying both extremesabout this show.
So I want to like unpack alittle bit like what the tools
are that people are pointing to.
I'm interested to get yourbrain on the case a little bit
too, especially as a relativelyblank slate because you're a
money nerd, and then to have mesort of tell you the stuff.
I'm looking forward to hearingyour contribution to that piece.
(05:56):
The second bucket that I want totalk about is gender and
sexuality.
This bucket is a little bitlighter than the money one.
It's a little bigger than athimble, but maybe it's a cup.
It's a shot glass, it's a cup.
There's, I think, the sexualitypiece.
Like I would argue thatspongebob himself is
heteroromantic but asexual, sowhatever.
(06:17):
But I do think that there'ssome interesting things, like
interesting examples ofdifferent forms of masculinity
and like what the judgment is ofthe show of those different
forms of masculinity issomething that's like worth kind
of at least like lifting up.
We won't spend a lot of timethere.
I want to talk about this willbe a little bit related to our
(06:37):
conversations around the moviebig about adulting and the
importance of play and the andthe importance of imagination.
Like the importance ofimagination, like that episode
actually I rewatched from thatmeme that you're talking about
and just being open to wonderthat we get through the person
of SpongeBob and Patrick Starrand kind of like the messages.
(07:00):
And that will segue into myfinal bucket because since I
watched this as a like startingas a 23 year old and then, you
know, through my 20s, like in alot of ways I self identified or
identified closely withSquidward, who was like the
adult of the three mainprotagonists I'm putting quotes
around the word adult becausethey're all technically adults
(07:22):
and also he, like the show likereally gives him a hard time, if
you will, about being an adult.
And yet he was the one I waskind of like identifying with,
so it was like a fun challengeto me, not in a like finger
wagging way, but just like as areminder.
But I wasn't who the show wasmade for.
That's like a reallyinteresting thing.
(07:51):
As I kind of move into myfourth bucket, which is about
like the animation itself andthe art form and the
storytelling pieces of it, Ithink that Steven Hillenburg,
the creator, like me veryinfluenced by Ren and Stimpy,
like it's clear to me that he isindebted to john k, who was a
sexual predator but also madesome great but also cartoons.
Really genius animator in a lotof ways yeah, it's clear to me
(08:14):
that the creators and writersand animators of spongebob
watched ren andimpy likereligiously and studied it.
And it's in that same arc ofreturning to an auteur, if you
wish, of the animation and pushit even further to things that I
(08:35):
find like deeply funny, wherethey will intersperse like
photographs in with theanimation.
I'll tell a specific storyabout that.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
I can remember you telling me about that in the
early 2000s, about somethingthat it just struck you as so
funny.
Does Still really does thesinging at the beginning.
Right, there's like a paintingof a pirate and the mouth is the
real person's mouth, but it's areal person's mouth, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Are you ready, kids?
And then, and in that, so alsoin the series, open, spongebob
kind of bounces, like he openshis door and he's wearing just
underpants, like tighty whities,and this actual hand reaches in
and puts his square pants onhim, like from the side, like
the animator, if you imagine,like the animator's hand coming
in, which, like I findabsolutely delightful.
(09:19):
And so you know part of theconversation about the actual
art form too and the influenceof Hillenburg and others.
I'm guessing those guys are GenX, right, and so there's this is
like a Gen Z staple that GenXers made, and so there's
something really interesting tome about that too, like when we
(09:40):
think which harkens back toother things, like Dirty Dancing
, which was a boomer story, buta Gen X touchstone you know like
those sorts of things.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
So anyway.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
So that's where we're going.
Before we get there, let meremind you, listener, or tell
you if you haven't heard, likesome of the key players in this
show Again, it's 15 seasons,it's not a singular story arc.
So I'm not going to try, butI'll just name the players and I
might give a few synopses ofspecific episodes as we go.
(10:13):
But so SpongeBob SquarePants isthe show.
That's the name of the show.
It's also a character.
It's set in Bikini Bottom,which is the name of an
underwater town populated by seacreatures.
So SpongeBob is a sponge and helives on a little street.
There are only three houses,apparently.
(10:34):
His is a pineapple, right nextto him is what looks like a tiki
head, I guess, and then rightnext to that is a rock.
So the Tiki Head is Squidward'shouse, squidward Tentacles, who
is a squid and is definitelythe most adult of the three of
them.
Under the rock lives PatrickStar, who's a starfish.
(10:56):
Spongebob and Patrick both wearpants but no shirt.
Squidward wears a shirt, but nopants, doesn't SpongeBob have a
snail?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
that's a cat named Gary.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Yes, spongebob has a pet who's a snail, whose name is
Gary and Gary meows like a cat.
Yes, a fast food restaurantcalled the Krusty Krab, which is
owned by Mr Krabs, who is acrab and is extremely
(11:41):
money-focused and he's verygreedy and he has this thing
where he can smell money and heloves money.
That's his entire personalitypretty much is that he loves
money and he runs the KrustyKrab like really to to maximize
profit.
He doesn't care about thecustomers, he does not care
about his workers, he just caresabout money.
That is made very clear.
He has a daughter named Pearl,who is a whale, adopted I okay,
(12:06):
they never say Squidward hatesworking, he just works to live.
Spongebob loves working.
He's the fry cook and he lovesit Like he just thinks it's the
bee's knees.
In fact, like the very firstepisode, one of the things we
see is like he's gonna go tryand get a job at the Krusty Krab
(12:27):
.
So other characters includeSpongeBob and Patrick's friend
Sandy, who is a squirrel like a,like an actual squirrel from
the land.
So she wears a diving outfitand helmet underwater but she
has a dome with a tree in itwhere she actually lives.
That's like imagine like a,like an underwater base that
(12:50):
they built.
It's sort of shaped like anigloo with like a lock system
that drains the water so you cantake your helmet off.
There's also mrs puff, who isthe driving instructor.
She's a puffer fish, she's verynervous.
And plankton, who is thedriving instructor she's a
puffer fish, she's very nervous.
And Plankton, who is tiny andhe owns the Chum Bucket, which
(13:10):
is another restaurant across thestreet from the Krusty Krab,
which is always failing, andPlankton is always trying to
steal the secret formula forKrabby Patties which makes them
irresistible, so that he can bea successful restaurateur.
So there's this big rivalry andhe's always failing.
There are probably othercharacters, like there's Larry
the Lobster, who's a bodybuilder, and you know.
(13:33):
There's a couple of otherrecurring characters, but those
are the main.
Those are the main ones.
Let me start with the the moneyand Marxism piece and I'll give
a little bit more of maybe someof the like that first episode
where which is the first timethat so each episode, much like
Ren and Stimpy, it's like a30-minute episode with two
(13:54):
15-minute mini episodes or halfepisodes, so you'll talk about
and each one is named, each ofthe 15-minute ones is named.
So sometimes you'll seesomething.
It'll be like season two,episode 13B, which means it's
the second half of the episode.
Is that storyline?
So one of the two in the veryfirst episode is when SpongeBob
(14:15):
gets his job at the Krusty Kraband he's like really excited to
try and go get this job and it'sthe first time we hear him say
I'm ready, which is not just I'mready, it's I'm ready, I'm
ready, I'm ready, which I willsometimes say to you and, if you
didn't know that, where it camefrom that's where it comes from
(14:39):
.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
I had no idea, oh my goodness, that's helpful.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Now For 20 years I've been saying this to my sister.
She didn't know that I wasquoting SpongeBob.
That's fantastic, okay.
So he goes to get this job and,like Patrick is encouraging him
, you can do this.
And then he gets there andSquidward's like oh no, like
Squidward does not want his nextdoor neighbor working with him
(15:00):
at the Krusty Krab, and so MrKrabs gives him an impossible
task to go buy this like superfancy spatula that Mr Krabs has
just made up, that you knowsupposedly doesn't exist, and
not to come back until he has it.
And when he does, then he canhave the job.
So of course he goes off andhe's going to.
He gets it.
But in the meantime fourbusloads of anchovies show up to
(15:24):
the Krusty Krab and they'relike literally like a sea that
the two other characters, mrKrabs and Squidward, are just
kind of like floating on the sea, of anchovies who are hungry
and rude.
And some of the jokes are likeso funny to me that I don't
understand why they're so funny.
Like Mr Krabs, the buses pullup and his eye twitches and he
(15:45):
says do you smell that?
It's a smelly smell.
That smells smelly.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Like for some reason.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
I find that hilarious .
Do you smell that?
It's a smelly smell, thatsmells.
It's that sophisticated senseof humor.
Yeah, I'm so clever, so I meanit doesn't take a genius to know
.
Spongebob swoops in with thisfancy spatula and like, almost
(16:14):
magically, makes enough KrabbyPatties to feed all these
anchovies and saves the day.
And so of course he gets thejob, much to Squidward's chagrin
, because Squidward finds himreally annoying.
The job much took Squidward'schagrin because Squidward finds
him really annoying.
Those attitudes like Krabs isdelighted because they've just
made so much money from allthese anchovies buying all the
Krabby Patties.
Squidward is annoyed andSpongeBob is just like happy to
(16:35):
be of service.
And so those characteristicslike that describes so many
episodes Krabs is delightedbecause there's money.
Squidward is annoyed and boredand put out in one way or
another.
Spongebob is just happy, happyto be working, happy to be of
(16:55):
service.
It's very clear that they areunderpaid.
I think there's only there'sone time I'm aware of.
It's possible there are more,but there's one time that I'm
aware of where SpongeBob sayshey, mr Krabs, can I have a
raise?
And Mr Krabs is like no.
And that's the end of theconversation.
So like we're meant to knowthat they're underpaid, clearly
(17:17):
overworked.
Sometimes we see it directlywhere, like Mr Krabs says, we're
going to be open 24 hours nowand there are literally two
employees Like not to a shift.
Two, there's Squidward andSpongeBob.
So like we're meant to knowthat they're overworked and
underpaid and SpongeBob is justlike yeah, this is what we do,
(17:38):
you know.
And Squidward is like huh.
And so I see why the amateuranalysts are saying like both of
the things that they're sayingright, both that this
radicalized a generation whowere like yeah, I'm not doing
that.
And also that it was like kindof conveying the message of like
(18:01):
be a good worker, becauseclearly Spongebob is the guy I
mean not only is he a titularcharacter.
Be a good worker Becauseclearly Spongebob is the guy I
mean not only is he a titularcharacter, like he's delightful.
I think that the kids watchingwere meant to self-identify with
Spongebob he's fun and funnyand having a great time and like
whatever, and he loves working.
And like Mr Krabs is like no,you can't have a raise.
And he's like okay, he's alwaysthe employee of the month.
(18:24):
Like he gets a lot of rewardsfor being a cog in the machine,
and doing it with a smile on hisface, though he is also made
fun of like right, like crabsand squidward both think he's
kind of ridiculous.
It's like complicated the factthat SpongeBob is the main
(18:49):
character and is so happy to bea worker.
He's happy, it's his dream,it's the finest eating
establishment in all of BikiniBottom.
You know that he was like bornto be a fry cook.
He's treated as if he's a chefin some ways, like because of
(19:14):
the sort of prodigal kind of,you know, prodigy kind of thing.
But he's not wearing a chef'shat, right, he's wearing like
the Krusty Krab uniform and he'sjust slinging burgers like,
even though he's sort of made toseem as though this is some
special gift.
And the fact that, like againcrabs, we see again and again
(19:37):
and again that money is his onlymotivator and he's not sharing
it with his employees.
But spongebob remains happywith the circumstances.
That's what those who sort ofsay like this is the tool of
capitalism that was trying toindoctrinate youngins to be good
workers.
That's the evidence that theyprovide.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Here's what I'm hearing.
It was around then like late90s, early 2000s, when I first
heard from our uncle in Orlandoyou know, find something you
love to do and you'll never worka day in your life.
Which I've heard many, manytimes since and it very much
(20:19):
seems like we are seeing withSpongeBob and Squidward, like
the two sides of that, which isa very capitalist kind of way of
looking at things in some waysLike so you know, find something
you love to do, you'll neverwork a day in your life.
(20:39):
I really hate that advice.
I don't like I don't fault ouruncle for telling me that and I
don't think that it'snecessarily bad advice in a
better world than the one welive in, except that nobody
loves digging ditches and thatneeds to be done.
(21:00):
I love what I do.
I love what I do.
There are days when it is work,do there are days when it is
work.
So the idea that, likeSpongebob, loving what he does,
is decoupled from how much he'spaid for it is, I think, kind of
like a Marxist idea in that.
Like you're not doing workbecause you're getting paid for
(21:25):
it.
You're doing work because thework needs to be done, because
it fulfills something in youbecause, because you're good at
it, you know all of those thingsthat would be kind of like the
idea of communism.
But also why capitalism is notgreat.
Because you get these exploitedworkers, one of whom is happy
(21:55):
to be exploited, the other onewho is just this doesn't have
any other good choices.
So I can definitely see wheresomeone could say like, yeah,
this is, this is upholding thestatus quo.
But I can also see.
Before we started recording, Iwas saying, like you know, this
is Gen Z, we're watching this.
As the eldest Gen Z, the oneswho are now in the workforce it
makes my heart sing that theyare saying to their bosses what
(22:18):
do you mean?
You want me to work past five?
You only pay me till five or no.
I'm not answering the phone onthe weekend.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
No weekend like no, which I am so proud to see
because it never occurred to methat I could do that when I was
their age.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Yeah, so I do think that there is something to like.
They grew up imbibing this andseeing that spongebob is there
because he wants to be there andsquidward is there because he
has to be there.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
There's something, something really, really
interesting about Squidward inparticular.
Squidward is driven by status,despite the fact that he has
very little.
He's a total snob.
He's a culture snob.
So he plays the clarinet poorlyand thinks of himself as being
like, very important, like acreative genius of some kind,
(23:07):
right like he really wants to beviewed in that way.
So he not only does he play theclarinet, like he paints and
like whatever, and he has thisbig rivalry with this other
squid named squilliam.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
That is amazing why is that so delightful?
Speaker 1 (23:26):
squilliam looks just Squidward but like has like a
unibrow and is like, is muchmore Like externally successful.
So in one of the most belovedepisodes of SpongeBob
SquarePants it's called BandGeeks and Squilliam calls
Squidward up and says my band issupposed to play at the Bubble
(23:48):
Bowl two Fridays from now orwhatever it is, but I can't do
it because I'm going to be outof town.
So I thought maybe you and yourband want to do it.
And of course Squid doesn'thave a band.
But he lies and says that hedoes and tries to get a.
He gets all these peopletogether.
So all well fish together inthis I don't know abandoned
(24:10):
factory or something.
And he says has anyone playedan instrument before?
And Patrick Starr raises hishand and says does mayonnaise
count as an instrument?
I don't know why I find that sofunny anyway.
(24:31):
So, like the whole, like thewhole motivation for Squidward
to do this, to try and pull hismarching band together, is to
show up Squilliam, that he's nota failure.
And what's interesting is thatI think the reason I'm bringing
this to the fore in terms ofwhat you were just talking about
is again like what motivates usright, like we're clearly meant
to think.
Bringing this to the fore interms of what you were just
talking about is again like whatmotivates us right, like we're
clearly meant to think that thisis the wrong reason, like
(24:53):
there's a lot of secondhandembarrassment on the part of
Squidward and it is not working.
And then, finally, likeSpongeBob gives this like
rousing speech where he's likeLarry, when you had that
accident, who was it thatrevived you?
And he was like the emt guy andlike so.
And so when, when that happens,what did the?
A guy on the street, like it'snot squidward, like the answer
(25:15):
is not squirt, and spongebobsomehow manages to be like well,
let's do it for those guys.
So they pull together thisamazing band that like knocks
the socks off of everyone,including squilliam, and so so
squidward gets rewarded, like hegets what he wants, even though
I think we are meant to knowthat it's for the wrong reasons.
(25:38):
It's I mean we're even told it'sfor the wrong reasons.
Like spongebob doesn't rallythe troops for squidward but
squidward still like like reapsthe benefit of it.
So it's like this reallyinteresting sort of push pull
that and this episode is deeplybeloved, like when I did a
search for like funniestspongebob episodes.
(26:01):
Like this comes up on everysingle list and it's got this
like status like keeping up withthe Joneses or keeping up with
Squilliam, in this case at itscore, which again, like to your
point about working because youlove it or working because you
have to like what is themotivation?
(26:21):
Like I do think that Hillenburgand the other creators were
really interested in some ofthose questions about motivation
.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
And also even the what you're describing, how
Spongebob like rallies thetroops, is by saying let's do
this for these other people whohelped, but also gets into the
idea that to each their ownability, so, like the EMT guy is
(26:56):
who helped Larry because that'swhat he's good at, I think it's
really interesting thatSquidward is unhappy because
he's status obsessed, mr Krabsis money obsessed and those are
like kind of two sides of thesame coin.
Yes, completely yes, andwhereas SpongeBob's just happy,
(27:17):
as is Patrick, if I remembercorrectly, there is something to
like taking pride in humblework, which is status quo
supporting.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
The thing, though, I think like when we talk about
status and money, though, likethe episode that gave us the
meme with the imagination withthe rainbow is called the Idiot
Box, spongebob and Patrick ordera TV for the box.
They throw the TV away a gianttelevision that they throw away
so that they can have this bigbox to play in.
(27:51):
And Squidward is, you know,lives between the two of them.
So he's like, can I have the TV?
And he's like super excited tohave this giant TV.
Meanwhile, spongebob andPatrick close themselves in the
box and are playing differentgames, and the sound effects
from them are like reallybelievable, so much so that
(28:13):
Squidward is like, what are youdoing?
Do you have a sound taperecorder in there?
Like, how are you doing that?
Like they're playing mountainclimber and like he hears the
sound of the avalanche and he'slike he gets really scared and
he opens the box to see ifthey're okay and they're just
sitting there, like blinking athim, and Squidward's like, how
are you doing that?
And that's when SpongeBob'slike it's our imagination and he
(28:34):
does the rainbow thing thatyou've seen in the meme and he
goes back into his house andhe's trying to watch the TV and
every show is something aboutboxes, boxes or like it's like a
boxing match and he's like,well, it's not actually boxing,
but then they're like boxingboxes moving around a boxing
ring so ridiculous.
(28:55):
So there's definitely sort ofthat like again, that sense of
like, what is the motivation?
Like these two guys, patrickand SpongeBob, they don't need
money, they don't need status,they got their box, they got
their imaginations like, andthey are happy, and that's true,
like over and over and overagain, so that that episode is
like explicit.
(29:15):
But also like when they lovegoing jellyfishing, so they have
nets, like think like butterflynets, but to catch jellyfish
and then they just throw themback and they're like frolicking
, like they play, like that'stheir thing.
What's interesting to me, one ofthe many things that are
interesting in that episode inparticular, in the idiot box,
(29:38):
squidward like he's having FOMOabout all the noises he's
hearing coming out of the boxand so he joins them and they
said, well, where do you want togo?
And he's like, I don't know,like a robot, pirate island,
like trying to come up with themost ridiculous thing.
And then they do it and likehe's not seeing it, he's just
sitting there in a box withthese two guys and so he like
gets frustrated and leaves andthey keep playing.
(30:00):
And then he hears the soundeffects and it sounds like robot
pirate island.
He's like major FOMO.
So he waits for them to go tosleep and then gets in the box
and is looking for like thebutton or the lever or the
whatever, like how they weremaking the noise and eventually
like he's like it's not, like ifI could just press my foot,
like this I'll be driving a racecar.
And then there's the sound of arace car and he's like, hey,
(30:20):
I'm finally doing it.
I'm finally doing it.
And SpongeBob hears from hishouse like, oh, he's finally
doing it.
Well, it turns out it'sactually like a trash truck
that's picking up the big boxand, like Squid's like having a
great time because he feels thebox moving.
He's like my imagination isworking.
He gets dumped in the dump andlike falls down this hill of
(30:43):
trash, down this hill of trash.
So it's like there's something.
Really.
There's like a tension that'salive for me in that, insofar as
I feel like we are beingclearly shown that Squidward is
limiting himself by his kind ofadult I'm putting quotes around
that his adult perspective.
His cynicism and his negativityare limiting him.
(31:07):
And even when he finally letshimself, it's not really him.
It's not real.
Even his imagination is notreal.
His experience is actually thistrash truck no-transcript is
(31:29):
able to access.
The motivation that we areclearly shown is like more fun,
more desirable, like what weshould be aiming for, like we
should be aspiring to beSpongeBob and Patrick.
But even when Squidward letshimself, he pays for it.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
This is feeling a little like there's a connection
to Big.
I see that when Josh gets hisfirst paycheck and he's like 135
or whatever it was, yeah, 187,yeah, like there's a childlike
enjoyment and childlike joy andwonder and imagination that you
(32:07):
see with spongebob, and it's inpart because he is not obsessed
with the adult status type stuffthat I can't remember the not
villain, well Squidward, butyeah.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Oh Plankton.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
No, no, no, I'm big, I'm big.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
The rival guy.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Paul, paul, there's that, but there's also like
there's more, I think sympathyfor Squidward in this situation.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
That's yeah.
So that's a really interestingpoint too because, yes, I agree,
in particular, like again,since I started watching this as
an adult like I was Iidentified with Squidward a lot
of the time, you know, like I'msure the kids who were watching
it like the kids I wasbabysitting were not identifying
as Squidward, but I was, youknow.
And so there's also like areally interesting kind of
(32:56):
tension there in that, when Ithink about what I named before,
that like I think Hillenburgand the other makers were Gen
Xers like me, I'm watching it,identifying with Squidward, you
know, and like looking for waysthat I can like not make those
mistakes but totallyunderstanding them,
understanding the status,understanding the FOMO,
(33:17):
understanding the like oh no,squilliam Like I can't let
squilliam know I work at a fastfood restaurant, you know like
really getting that in ways thatI have a feeling, like the kids
I was babysitting for whom itwas tech, I guess, but I have a
feeling like the kids I wasbabysitting for whom it was tech
, I guess, you know officiallymade like probably weren't
getting you know from lifeexperience.
(33:39):
So there's something really like.
Yes, I completely agree.
There's a lot more sympathy forSquidward than there was for
Paul in Big yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Yeah, so something I like I have spent some time
thinking about my spouse and Ihave talked about like where we
college In the first college hechose for a reason that I can't
wrap my head around, and I wasthinking I wouldn't do that,
except that when I first went tovisit my alma mater, kenyon, I
wanted to cross it off my listbecause it wasn't prestigious
(34:10):
enough list because it wasn'tprestigious enough and like I
feel really lucky that I havethis like core sense of like who
I am and like I stepped oncampus.
I'm like, well, I'm home, sothat's it.
And I had a couple of pangs oflike I had someone say to me
when I applied I had someone Iwent to high school with, like
oh, like you're not going to getinto Kenyon Because I was going
(34:31):
to school with people who areapplying to Yale and Harvard and
Princeton and Duke and blah,blah, blah and so that kind of
like social conditioning forlike prestige.
And even like my first job outof college I worked at Barnes
and Noble and then I ended upgetting an office job.
That was awful, but it was anoffice job.
(34:52):
So that's like real work insteadof retail, which is not real
work.
So like there's and I don'tknow if that's just Gen X or if
that is millennials have feltthat too or what and if that's
part of what we're seeing with,like elder gen z like saying no
(35:14):
about yeah about work, maybeyeah.
I don't know, but that, that, Ithink, is like it's really
interesting because what they'regrowing up watching is like
just be who you are and enjoyyourself yeah, yeah, actually,
like on that point of like bewho you are and the status stuff
(35:34):
, I'm gonna shift into gender alittle bit.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
So I'm not gonna say this like never in 15 seasons
ever passes Bechdel, but ingeneral it doesn't.
So there certainly are morethan two female characters, but
they're almost never together.
It's not a regular thing thatthey would be together and if
they were, like if Mrs Potts andSandy talked, they would
probably be talking aboutSpongeBob.
(35:59):
It's entirely possible thatit's more than one point in the
15 seasons that, like, pearl andSandy spoke about something
besides SpongeBob or a man, butin general, no.
So a reminder Bechdel is arethere at least two female
characters?
Do they talk to each other?
Do they talk to each otherabout something other than a man
(36:20):
, two named female characters?
So I'm saying like in general,no, this film, this franchise,
doesn't.
They don't set it up that thathappens on the regular and I
think there's still some reallyinteresting things that happen
around gender.
So Sandy is the most frequentairtime female character and
(36:43):
she's a badass, right, she's asquirrel who lives under the sea
and they first meet whenSpongeBob first meets Sandy.
She's like wrestling this giantclam and they like do karate
together.
Spongebob first meets Sandy,she's like wrestling this giant
clam and they like do karatetogether, spongebob and she do,
and like this clam eatsSpongeBob.
He's trying to save Sandy butends up like getting eaten.
And she's like hold on littleyellow dude because she's from
(37:05):
Texas, and she like beats theheck out of this clam who like
flies off like whimpering, likeshe is tough, real tough, and
she's wearing this like diver'ssuit, but then in her dome she
wears like a little like miniskirt and like bandoo.
So she's very much female, youknow, like girly girl to a
(37:28):
certain extent, but also toughas nails.
So that's really kind ofinteresting.
She's clearly SpongeBob'sromantic interest, though again
I have to say I think SpongeBobis pretty much asexual and has
something going on with Patrick,I don't know.
They're like best friends, youknow.
So it's complicated.
(37:49):
I'm actually not making anycomments on sexuality, on gender
, on gender, like Sandy's reallyinteresting.
And like SpongeBob, who is ourbeloved protagonist, is like
really physically weak.
So they go to like Muscle Beachat Goo Lagoon.
And like Larry the Lobster,like there's all of this,
(38:09):
they're like lifting weights andstuff and like SpongeBob is
lifting, like Spongebob islifting, like like a stick with
marshmallows on the end of itand struggling, you know like,
and Sandy's like dead liftingthese huge weights.
And like Larry's like deadlifting like the bleachers with
all the fish and people in them,like on either side of a stick.
And like Spongebob is likestruggling with these
(38:31):
marshmallows.
So like we are meant tounderstand that this little
yellow dude is not very strongand like we laugh at him.
But we laugh with him kind ofit's much gentler, kind of like
laughing at him than I think itcould be, especially with the
kind of like emasculating in thetraditional sense weakness,
(38:56):
except that then he splits hispants while he's trying to lift
and everybody laughs and heloves that, that he's making
everybody laugh.
So he starts splitting hispants all the time.
I actually had to stop watchingthat episode because I couldn't
handle the secondhandembarrassment you and I are
particularly uh yeah,particularly sensitive to that
sensitive to secondhandembarrassment but so we have
larry the lobster, who's likesuper buff and like, also just
(39:20):
like a cool dude like we.
He's neither villainized nor ishe idealized as like a, you
know, like it's not.
Like.
The hyper masculinity issomething that becomes something
we're meant to like, wish for,it's just one way of being yeah.
Which I think is pretty cool,and I wonder if that also
contributes to sort of the likethe ways in which Gen Zers are
(39:42):
just a lot more comfortable withdifferent expressions of gender
, like on that spectrum Right.
One doesn't have to be Larrythe Lobster in order to be male
one can be a spongebob and stillbe male.
I think that's really cool andlike it's unfortunate that, like
sandy was kind of our onlyoption, or pearl, who's very
(40:04):
again those opposites becauseshe's a very girly girl.
Pearl is the whale, daughter ofthe crab, like super into, into
, like she's like cheerleader,like kind of traditional
feminine, like hyper femininekind of expressions, but huge
because she's a whale.
So it's like outside of BikiniBottom we might think that those
(40:26):
things were mutually exclusiveand in Bikini Bottom it's like
no, it's just that's how pearlis.
You know, that's who, that'swho sandy is so so those things
are pretty cool.
We're running out of time so Iwant to talk about the actual
like art form a little bit oh,yeah, yeah, yeah so use of real,
like live action or stillphotographs within the animation
(40:49):
is done regularly, but not somuch, in my opinion, that it
becomes sort of a shtick thatyou're like, oh yeah, that again
.
And done to such comedic effect, like in that first episode.
When SpongeBob first meetsSandy, she says how are you with
air?
And he doesn't know what she'ssaying.
So he gets invited over to herdome, her tree dome, and he asks
(41:14):
Patrick, patrick, what's air?
And he says do you mean puttingon airs?
That just means being fancy.
You have to put your pinky up.
So SpongeBob goes to Sandy'sdome and like starts to realize
what air is and he's likestarting to dry out and his
voice gets all funny.
He's like what's wrong withwater?
(41:35):
It's really bizarre.
And then Patrick sees him liketrying to get out, and so
Patrick like rushes in and islike no, you can't quit.
And he's like taking him backto the table so that they can
have lunch together and he driesout, and he dries out, so they
(41:55):
get really dried out and then wecut to a photograph of a yellow
kitchen sponge next to a littlepink starfish.
It's a photograph and I've seenthis before, but like a couple
of nights ago.
I'm watching this and I'mlaughing so hard I'm almost
crying at this photograph of ayellow kitchen sponge and a pink
starfish in the midst of thisthing, where they're like waters
(42:16):
for quitters.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
And then Patrick's like pinky up because of Johnny
Pansy oh man, anyway, anyway.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
so where I wanted to go with this, though, was this
sort of like not being afraid topush the bounds of the medium,
which I think, in many ways,again, is indebted to ren and
stimpy and those anim animatorswho came before, but is not
derivative of Like they're notrehashing the same thing that
Ren and Stimpy did you know,they're doing it in new and
(43:04):
interesting ways and sometimesit falls flat.
Like there's one episode I don'tremember which one it is Like.
I actually like the episode butit starts with this like
Patches the, the pirate liveaction thing with this parrot on
, like parrot marionette it'sreally.
That bit is really stupid and Ithink it's meant to be like it
like like captain kangaroo herein the dmv when we were kids,
(43:26):
where there was like a liveaction thing that would
introduce a cartoon show.
Like I think it's meant to kindof harken back to that, but
that to me fell flat.
Like pushing the medium and likebeing nostalgic and stuff.
But then in other times, likeat one point, they have to run a
gauntlet on a haunted pirateship and it's the perfume
counter and we actually see likevideo of an actual, like
(43:48):
perfume counter.
That's hilarious, so perfumecounter, that's hilarious, so I
guess that.
And then they have a narrator.
like I think a lot of kidssenses of humor were very much
influenced by things like thatright like like I've mentioned
before on other episodes, wheremy daughter sometimes if
something's taking too long, shewill put on this weird french
(44:11):
accent which is the narratorfrom spongebob and say two hours
later and it's hilarious, andshe got that from spongebob and
that's like baked into her humordna, which I think is really,
really interesting.
I mean, we've talked, we've beentalking about a lot of the
things that are baked in, but Ithink again we have said this so
(44:32):
many times on deep thoughts butone of the things that I, that
I think the SpongeBob folks didwell and why it still holds up
these 25 years later, orwhatever, is that they took the
medium deeply seriously, butthey didn't take themselves
seriously and they were willingto break the rules if it had
certain effects, and so I thinkthat's one of the things that
(44:53):
makes it as long lasting as it'sbeen.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
You know it's interesting the way you're
putting that.
Willing to break the rules iskind of what I feel like we're
seeing with willing to break therules if it serves the humor or
the story.
I feel like that's what we'reseeing with the Gen Zers who are
like yeah, I'm not doing thatat work, like they're willing to
(45:19):
break the rules because itserves their needs.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
Something else yeah, it serves a greater purpose.
Yeah, that's really interesting.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
Whereas we were like no, these are the rules, the
rules are the rules.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
You got to follow the rules, because the rules are
the rules.
This is a cartoon.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
you can't put live action in a cartoon yes yeah,
yeah yeah, that is the sort ofthing that that's why we do what
we're doing which is like whereare these like kind of I won't
say universal, but likewidespread changes and
differences between generationscoming from?
(45:52):
And like I get a littlefrustrated with how much we talk
about generations Like theynamed Gen Alpha before they're
even done being born.
It's like stop, like they needto have like shared experiences,
shared media, shared a bunch ofstuff, and if they're not even
all born yet, then what's thepoint?
But there is something to whenthey get to be, you know, young
(46:14):
adults and the older adults arelike kids these days about, you
know, working with them.
What is it that they're goingto have in common?
Speaker 1 (46:33):
highlights of what we talked about.
Spongebob y'all is still really, really funny.
So the key buckets that Ibrought today were like
attitudes toward money and kindof Marxist analysis thereof
money and work and we actuallyextended that out to status and
I think where we landed wasactually talking about
motivation and what motivates us, and naming that Spongebob sort
(46:54):
of showed us that likeintrinsic motivation.
Like Spongebob works because helikes the work and he is
therefore happy and he is notdriven by status.
He is not driven by money, he'snot even.
I mean there are moments whenhe cares about how others think
about him, but even in that likeas long as like when he's
(47:15):
making people laugh, he's happytoo.
You know, even he can't liftwhat Larry the lobster can lift,
but when he makes people laugh,that makes him happy.
So there's like a way in which,like we are shown that
relationships, imagination, fun,play, all are like great
motivators and status and moneyare not.
(47:38):
Squidward is so unhappy all thetime and he has a hard time
even accessing the things thatmake SpongeBob happy because
he's doing it for the wrongreasons.
We talked a bit about gender.
I put sexuality on the shelfbecause it's complicated and I
actually don't want to get intoit that much, but I did talk
about gender.
The show in general does notpass the bechdel test, but it
(48:01):
does give us really likenon-judgmental, different modes
of masculinity, in particular,from very weak spongebob,
physically physically weak, tovery strong Larry, who aren't
idealized or demonized foreither of those things.
That's just how they show up.
We also saw sort of whatoutside of Bikini Bottom I named
(48:23):
, like the whale, who is alsovery feminine, would, based on
some of what society has taughtus about fat phobia and
femininity, would say thatthat's impossible.
But there's Pearl.
That's just who she is.
And similarly Sandy, who is atotal badass, very physically
(48:45):
strong, very physically fierceand also feminine.
We get both with Sandy I talkeda bit about, like the some of
the generational, like switchingand swapping and humor insofar
as, like this was Gen Xersmaking stuff for Gen Zers and
younger potentially, and likesome of the humor things we have
(49:08):
therefore passed on throughthis show, like my daughter's
two hours later, and alsobreaking the rules a little bit
or breaking the fourth walloccasionally, the ways in which
I experienced this show when itwas new, like kind of like
self-identifying as Squidwardwho was, like the quote unquote
(49:28):
adult, even though they're alltechnically adults, and the ways
in which it felt like areminder versus like kids I was
babysitting who are now adults,who would have self-identified
probably as SpongeBob orpossibly Patrick of some of the
(49:56):
groundbreaking work that Ren andStimpy did in terms of, like
reclaiming animation as its ownart form, not just as marketing
for products but as its own artform, that this kind of builds
on that work that Ren and Stimpydid and even expands it by
continuing to break the rules Inamed, specifically by bringing
in like still photos or videofrom the real world, which we
see even from the openingsequence, where we've got the
(50:18):
pirate painting with an actualman's lips asking if you're
ready, kids, and also theanimator's hand with the square
pants over SpongeBob'stighty-whities.
So those were the big highlightsof what I think we talked about
.
What did I miss, em?
Speaker 2 (50:37):
I think we we talked a little bit about how so you
mentioned that money and statusare bad motivators, but we
talked about how like that couldbe the way that spongebob
treats work could be seen aslike a like upholding the status
quo in some ways, or it couldbe like a Marxist pushback.
(50:57):
In some ways, I think it'scomplicated, I think it's like
it's a yes end and in partbecause it's being, it's been
made by, like the Gen Xers whowere like oh, the boss wants me
to work late, okay, I'm workinglate, so we struggle with
breaking those rules.
Speaker 1 (51:13):
Yeah, yeah, and I think that's why we see
commentators saying both thingsabout this franchise.
They say both that itradicalized a generation around
work and that it taught us to begood little workers.
We see both things being saidand I see why I see why, people
draw those conclusions, I meanfrom the art itself.
(51:33):
I think we would have to look atdata, whether quantitative or
qualitative, to know what theactual impact was.
So well, that's what I wantedto say about SpongeBob
SquarePants, who lives in apineapple under the sea.
So next weekend.
Speaker 2 (51:50):
Yes, next time I will be bringing you my deep
thoughts about the Mummy, theBrendan Fraser film.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
All right, cool.
Looking forward to it.
Can't wait See you then.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
(52:20):
, of course, share the show withyour people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to ResonateRecordings for editing today's
episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture, and
(52:42):
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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